=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:22:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Viral Ponderings

If "language is a virus from Outer space," is poetry a vaccine?

And

Quien es? eh?

Yours in Bill,

Alan C. Reese

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:28:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Quien es?

Does anyone know if Wm Burroughs Communications (PO BOX 147/Lawrence,KS)

has any network capabilities? I have a fax number, but would like to

know if they are online. If they aren't, what can we do to get them where

they should be?

Uncle Bill's spirit should be soaring the cyber airwaves before....

Yours in Bill,

Alan

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 11:09:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Viral Ponderings

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 May 1995 22:22:45 -0500 from <S72UREE@TOWSONVX>

Only if it's cut-up poetry!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:33:48 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: otr film

I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise. Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal. Just to get

the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think? What pair

of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: otr film

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 07 JUN 1995 20:33:48 EDT

>I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

>and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise. Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

>Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal. Just to get

>the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think? What pair

>of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

If the above rumour is true, then it substantiates the rumour that

Mr. Coppola is in the biz for the bucks.

Sean Penn and Brad Pitt are fine kid actors... cutey pies. I don't

think that's what's needed for OTR, though. Actually, I don't think the

lead characters need to be necessarily be kids (or those faces we

automatically relate-to as kids'... Michael J Fox, for instance).

Wouldn't it be great to see Lyle Lovett play Dean?

Just like when OTR was announced as a books-on-tape, I'm eagerly

awaiting the product, but I don't expect to be enchanted by the

thing. Besides, I think Dharma Bums and Subteranneans would make

better films.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:28:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: otr film

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

On Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>>I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

>>and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise. Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

>>Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal. Just to get

>>the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think? What pair

>>of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

>If the above rumour is true, then it substantiates the rumour that

>Mr. Coppola is in the biz for the bucks.

>Sean Penn and Brad Pitt are fine kid actors... cutey pies. I don't

>think that's what's needed for OTR, though. Actually, I don't think the

>lead characters need to be necessarily be kids (or those faces we

>automatically relate-to as kids'... Michael J Fox, for instance).

>Wouldn't it be great to see Lyle Lovett play Dean?

>Just like when OTR was announced as a books-on-tape, I'm eagerly

>awaiting the product, but I don't expect to be enchanted by the

>thing. Besides, I think Dharma Bums and Subteranneans would make

>better films.

>Jim

The Subterraneans was made into a movie in 1960. George Peppard played

Leo Percepied and Leslie Caron played Mardou Fox. It was full of

gratuitious violence. Kerouac was furious about it.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:11:34 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: otr film

I'd rather see Penn and Pitt reverse roles, Penn as Paradise, Pitt as Moriarty.

Pitt is beautiful, no doubt, but he is something of a dunderhead who excels at

"noble savage" type roles. Penn could better carry off the portrayal of the

sensitive and intelligent Sal Paradise, alter-ego of Jack himself. Especially

if Coppola uses a 1st person voiceover narration, I think Pitt would be

disastrous.

I'd like to see Gary Oldman as Paradise and Val Kilmer as Moriarty, but I'm not

picking.

--

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying."

"Then he was told: Remember all you have seen, because everything forgotten

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:25:56 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

I haven't been able to get to alt.books.beat generation through my

netnews group. Can anyone give me a specific address so that I can try

to subscribe directly? Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:32:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Patrick M. Mirucki" <Patriick@IX.NETCOM.COM>

>I haven't been able to get to alt.books.beat generation through my

>netnews group. Can anyone give me a specific address so that I can try

>to subscribe directly? Thanks.

>

>

Well..It looks as though your alreaady subscribed to it. I'm currently

subscribed to the Beat Generation List and received your message.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:16:41 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject: OTR casting

I thought the following message was great advice on possible casting for the

film version of On the Road:

***

I'd rather see Penn and Pitt reverse roles, Penn as Paradise, Pitt as

Moriarty.

Pitt is beautiful, no doubt, but he is something of a dunderhead who excels

at

"noble savage" type roles. Penn could better carry off the portrayal of the

sensitive and intelligent Sal Paradise, alter-ego of Jack himself.

Especially

if Coppola uses a 1st person voiceover narration, I think Pitt would be

disastrous.

I'd like to see Gary Oldman as Paradise and Val Kilmer as Moriarty, but I'm

not

picking.

-

Mark S. Gordon

***

Let's not forget that Dean Moriarty was the alter-ego representation for Neil

Cassady, who was very handsome, as well as rugged--Pitt might work well

indeed (I agree that he'd be better off as Dean rather than Sal). Val Kilmer

as Moriarty crossed my mind, too, but I wouldn't want to see the Sal/Kerouac

character come off as less physical than Moriarty--Kerouac, in addition to

vying with Cassady in the handsomeness department, was a good-sized, rugged

guy himself (football at Columbia).

Someone else suggested Lyle Lovett for Moriarty--that would definitely be

interesting, although Lyle would really have to stretch to capture the

speed-rapping manic brilliance of Cassady.

Let's keep those casting suggestions coming! Perhaps we can inspire an

alternative, low-budget counterproposal to the Coppola project!

Brian K. Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:32:43 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject: a previous message

In case this didn't make it to the List. I was responding to the original

call which mentioned that Kerouac had thought Brando would make a good Dean

and Montgomery Cliff would be the best Sal for the film version of On the

Road:

"I think Kerouac had it about right. If we try to find those of the

appropriate age in the present time, I'd be interested in seeing Johnny Depp

have a go at Sal and let Anthony Kiedis (have to cut his hair) of the Red Hot

Chili Peppers try on Dean."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:22:27 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Kerouac Conference at NYU

Did anyone else attend the Kerouac conference at NYU, held earlier this week.

Here are some snapshot observations:

1. I came away with a heightened appreciation for Kerouac as a poet. In fact,

I think it may be fair to say that he was a poet FIRST, and a fiction writer

second.

2. Gregory Corso is in deep, deep trouble personally and I hope the people who

know and love him (Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, etc.) are trying to save him.

3. Kerouac left an incredible crush of material behind: books, journals, poems,

paintings, drawings, letters, notes. It may be that most of what he wrote hasn't

even been released yet. Not only was this a revelation to me, but it served as

a reminder that writers (which I am) and artists need to be creating all the

time in as many mediums as they can. Never again will I leave my house without a

notebook and pen and not feel a twinge of guilt. Kerouac may have had failings

as a person - we all do - but his writer's discipline has to be considered the

standard.

Mark Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:24:24 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: OTR casting

In addition to difficulties recreating the breakneck pace of Dean Moriarty's

style, Lyle Lovett would have problems with Dean's overwhelming physicality.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 17:18:19 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Ann Charters in Framingham, MA 6/17

Ann Charters in Framingham, MA

Ann Charters, Kerouac biographer, and editor of the recently published

Collected Letters and Portable Kerouac will speak at Border's Bookstore,

85 Worcester Rd (Rte 9), Framingham, MA at 2:00 PM, Saturday, June 17. For

information call (508)875-2321.

posted by tracey on behalf of Lowell appreciates Kerouac!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 12:43:15 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Road Movie

I came upon this professional note in the May issue of PMLA which I

thought I'd pass on: "Steven Cohan and Ina Rae Hark seek submissions

for a collection of essays on the road movie. The book seeks to look at

the road movie historically and culturally from a variety of critical

and theoretical perspectives. Consideration of the road move's

relations to questions of nationalism, sexuality, technology, and genre

are especially welcome; papers examining connections between road films,

road literature (e.g. Kerouac), and television (e.g. Route 66) are also

invited. Contributors should send 2-page proposals and vitae by 15

August 1995 to both Cohan, Dept. of English, Syracuse Univ., Syracuse,

NY 13244 (fax 315 443-5390), and Hark, Dept. of English, Univ. of South

Carolina, Columbia 29208 (fax 803 777-1302) Preliminary inquiries may be

sent to smcohan@mailbox.syr.edu and hark@hsscls.hssc.scarolina.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:42:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Uncle Bill

What's the concensus of opinion out there on WB's appearance in the

Nike commercial?

Does anyone know the physical, mental status of Gregory Corso? Heard he was

doing poorly.

I'm reading Kerouac's letters and find the Charters explanatory interludes

a bit unnecessary, slightly intrusive. and somewhat repetitive. The last

letter from Sebastian Sampas really foretells the coming of Dean Moriarty.

Anyone else out there perusing same?

Alan C. Reese

Baltimore

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:21:47 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Uncle Bill

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:42:38 -0500 from <S72UREE@TOWSONVX>

At first, I thought some of Charters' footnotes were obvious. Is there

really a need to identify G.B. Shaw as an Irish dramatist? Given the

wide audience of the Selected Letters, however, maybe it is necessary.

Teaching freshman at Brooklyn College, it often surprises me how little

they know of literature or history.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:23:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Uncle Bill

Shouldn't a footnote not only be informative, but relevant? For example,

the Shaw note as a case in point. Is it going to help a freshman or any

other ignorant lout who is bothering to read K.'s letters to know that

Shaw was an Irish dramatist? Shouldn't there be something more to

connect the reference to K.'s state of mind, themes, characters, or

whatever? I think by eliminating the unnecessary and redundant in Charters'

footnotes and explanatory notes, the collection of letters could have included

more kerouac letters.

ACR

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 17:33:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Ann Charters Visit (fwd)

> Ann Charters in Framingham, MA

>

> Ann Charters, Kerouac biographer, and editor of the recently published

> Collected Letters and Portable Kerouac will speak at Border's Bookstore,

> 85 Worcester Rd (Rte 9), Framingham, MA at 2:00 PM, Saturday, June 17. For

> information call (508)875-2321.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 09:36:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Uncle Bill

In-Reply-To: <01HRQGJWYDBM8Y6V76@TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

I found it useful to know that Oscar Wilde had been imprisoned for

homosexuality--found it in a footnote in the Kerouac letters book by

Charters.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:44:36 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: kerouac jack's

Does anybody know of a restaurant in the Chicago area called Kerouac Jack's? I

f anyone has been there, I'd like to know what you thought of it. I'm heading

for Chicago and am wondering if it's worth a visit.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:43:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Baker <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95062009470883@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

No but look forward to seeing you in the windy city.Bill BakerOn Tue, 20 Jun

1995, Bill Gargan wrote:

> Does anybody know of a restaurant in the Chicago area called Kerouac Jack's?

I

> f anyone has been there, I'd like to know what you thought of it. I'm heading

> for Chicago and am wondering if it's worth a visit.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:40:08 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:43:25 -0500 from

<c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Got your new e-mail address. See you at the EALS mtg.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:38:02 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: What's Burroughs up to?

Does anybody have any information about what William S. Burroughs has been up

to recently? I've read (I forget where) that he isn't traveling much but I

don't know if that means he no longer makes public appearances or reads,

teaches, etc. I've wanted to hear him speak/perform for most of my adult life

and would greatly appreciate any info anyone might have on the subject, also

anything on recent or upcoming publications.

thanks,

Win Mattingly

gmatt1@ukcc.uky.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:49:25 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: What's Burroughs up to?

Win,

You are right. My info is that WSB does not travel and really doesn't make

public appearances, although he has done telephone hook-ups for the 94 NYU

Conference and one or two others.

A book of his letters is being published this year, or is already out. I

don't have the details at hand, but the bookstroe should be able to help

out. You can also call 1-800-KEROUAC for an excellent catalog of current

beat stuff, they may have it. Let me also reccommend "Beat Scene"

Magazine. It's a British publication that does a great job of covering the

beats past and present. The issue before last (I think) featured WSB.

Write: Kevin Ring, 27 Court Leet, Binley Woods, NR, Coventry,

Warwickshire, CV3 2JQ, England.

I am co-publisher of "Dharma beat" magazine. We aim to help publicize

Kerouac and sometimes beat related activities, publications and

organizations. Spring 95 included articles on Desolation Peak, Mexico City

Blues, Big Sur and events around the country. Send me your snail mail

address and I will send you a sample if you are interested.

Mark Hemenway

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:08:49 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: RADLEY-FASCIONE M D <M.D.Radley-fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: WSB

Win

Don't know if you've heard, but Uncle Bill has had a new work recently

published, by Viking in States I think, called My Education (A Book of

Dreams). It's great and covers old Tangier days up to relatively recent

times in Lawrence...Highly recommended, buy it now, you won't regret it.

Also, I assume you know about the recordings Bill made with the Disposable

Heroes of Hipophrasy (sp?), Spare Ass Annie, a couple of years ago now

(course you do!)

Daniel

P.S. Does anyone have, or know where I can get, a definitive list of WSB

works post Western Lands? Any help appreciated.

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:44:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Centing <rcenting@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT)

BEAT-L:what would Kerouac Jack's serve:apple pie and coffee?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:14:39 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: WSB letters

Someone wanted a citation for Burroughs' letters the other day. It's

*The Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959.* NY: Viking, 1993.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:44 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Harrod <jaharrod@UCI.EDU>

Subject: Burroughs Sighting

Andrei Condrescu's new book - "The Blood Countess" - has an endorsement on

the back of the dust jacket by William S. Burroughs - he calls the book "a

page turner".....

Jim Harrod

jaharrod@uci.edu

url = http://bookweb.cwis.uci.edu:8042/

ph = (714) 824-7878

fx = (714) 824-8545

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:48:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Holden, Lindel" <lholden%smtplink@RELAY.NSWC.NAVY.MIL>

Subject: Fire Watcher

So are there any openings for fire watchers up there in the

Cascades? by the Skagit with a view of Hozomeen?

samsara sam

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:31:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac

This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

sincere yet fictionalized perception of his brother. I, too, had an older

brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

most difficult events in my life. I never had a chance to know my brother,

and so he became a "saintly" image in my past. Kerouac's honest approach to

immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

and the places he will go. I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

writes about. Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is looking

for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

Go in peace.

Kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:58:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

As another new member of the list, I'm glad to see it works! Personally I

feel Kerouac takes his place as one of the great writers because of what

Kirsten says here. He meant a lot to me when I was growing up for completely

different yet equally intense and personal reasons. As a young Brit growing

up in gloomy ealy 70's London, he made me get on a Greyhound and explore

America for three months as soon as I could at age 17, and as I explored his

works he spoke to me again and again. That was before I went into

publishing, discovered a lot more about what his style meant and how

important all of that was to the future of writing. For that matter he also

got me into jazz, and is probably a good proportion of the reason I'm now

living here in the States twenty years later. I think that both his honesty

and his writing style do get into people's souls in a way few if any others

do, and that's what stands out. And of course looking back some of it seems

naive now, but there's always plenty more in the writing to explore. So

maybe others feel the same way?

Nick W-W

>This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

>into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

>because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

>sincere yet fictionalized perception of his brother. I, too, had an older

>brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

>losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

>most difficult events in my life. I never had a chance to know my brother,

>and so he became a "saintly" image in my past. Kerouac's honest approach to

>immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

>

>I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

>Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

>can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

>and the places he will go. I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

>my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

>writes about. Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is looking

>for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

>understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

>seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

>

>Go in peace.

>Kristen

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:05:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

Right on, Kristen. It's why we read, and it's who we are. Al

On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

> This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

> into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

> because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

> sincere yet fictionalized perception of his brother. I, too, had an older

> brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

> losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

> most difficult events in my life. I never had a chance to know my brother,

> and so he became a "saintly" image in my past. Kerouac's honest approach to

> immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

>

> I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

> Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

> can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

> and the places he will go. I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

> my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

> writes about. Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is

looking

> for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

> understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

> seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

>

> Go in peace.

> Kristen

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:18:14 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

Comments: To: pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU

In-Reply-To: <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu> (message from Kristen

VanRiper on Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:31:03 -0500)

Very interesting post. Funny that you read `Visions of Gerard' before OTR; I

don't think I've gotten around to reading Gerard, though I think I've looked

at it. It's not the first title that comes to mind when you mention Kerouac.

I wondered reading your post about how you would react to OTR; perhaps I was

thinking more of Neal Cassady's `First Third'. I had a friend once who

couldn't stand OTR, while I couldn't stand her favorite book, `Been down so

long...' by Richard Farina. I dumped her, of course. As for Pirsig's book, I

absolutely can't stand that either. I wondered if liking one of these books

automatically means you won't like certain others.

Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

(before Joyce, say). I just fail to see what's so good about it. It is

_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

About `First Third', I gave a copy to an old friend of mine who read one of

the more sexist passages aloud and threw it on the floor in disgust. I picked

it up and kept it, so it was a great present from my point of view. As for

the (ex-) friend, he went from being a misogynist with great promise to a

pussy-whipped puppet who can't think for himself. It's really a shame. Hate

to see a good man go bad like that. But remember, folks, it just goes to show

that Cassady is a great barometer for these things. And if that fails to

please, try Bukowski.

(Sorry, Vonnegut's just a little too cute and clever for me. As Jack would

say, his stuff is `just fiction').

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:35:46 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Martin Taylor <mtaylor@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

> understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

> seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

Hello Kristen, try the newsgroup:

alt.books.kurt-vonnegut

martin

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:57:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

To Kristen:

To me your comments are just what this mailing list is about. Thanks for

the best reason I've heard lately on why to read Kerouac.

Frank Beacham

163 Amsterdam Ave. #361

New York, NY 10023

(212) 873-9349

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:00:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Willard Goodwin <wgoodwin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Classic English lit

Joseph Rodrigue wrote:

>Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

>simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

>(before Joyce, say). I just fail to see what's so good about it. It is

>_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

And yet the Beats themselves had very great reverence for the English

Romantics (see my favorite Ginsberg poem, "Wales Visitation," an explicit

allusion to Wordsworth), Blake especially, and much of the ancient sacred

literature; and in American literature for Melville at least, of the

"classics." Of course Joseph, de gustibus non disputandum est.

P.S. At this Center we have deep archival research collections in Beats

(even if Stanford recently acquired the great Ginsberg archive).

Willard Goodwin, Bibliographer

Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center

University of Texas at Austin

P.O. Box 7219

Austin, TX 78713-7219

(512) 471-9113; FAX (512) 471-9646

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:18:12 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: GUITAR GOD <SGUNTER@BVILLE.NWSC.K12.AR.US>

Organization: Bentonville High School

Subject: Re: Kerouac

I, too, am new to the list but found your post enlightening. How

good it is to find this list, to find other seekers. Yes, go in

peace, and may you stay forever young....thanks.... (PS im sure i

will find out how but is it possible to digest Beat-l?)

############

Steve Gunter

BHS/NWACC

Bentonville,AR 72712

####################

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:38:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

>because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

>sincere yet fictionalized perception of his brother.

Coolness, Kristen....Yours is the first post I've received since starting

this list and you love my favorite Kerouac book.

The connection I've made to Kerouac's writings has always been through the

heart. To this day I remember the way I felt the first time I read Visions of

G about 20 years ago - as if I had stumbled upon a well of unashamed

sweetness and tenderness. You could send me running back to the book right

now, except that I'm just starting on William Vollmann's long "Fathers and

Crows". There is something about Vollmann that reminds me of Kerouac.

Perhaps they are both just the kind of sensitive bad boys that some women

love (on paper at least).

Glad to hear from all of you!

Julie Hulvey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:30:52 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Andy Petrie... 01473 224001" <petrie_a@SVHDEV.BT.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

Hello from sunny England...

First of all, greetings to all on this list. :) I signed up a few days ago, and

things were quiet at first, before Kirsten's post. Now more and more of us seem

to be crawling out from under our respective stones... Did I just happen to sign

on at a quiet period?

Well, like I say, I'm new to the list, and relatively new to the Beat. My first

great love was poetry of all kinds, which of course led to "Leaves of Grass",

"Howl" etc. I'm now immersed in "On the Road", which I figured was as good a

place to start as any. Do correct me if I'm wrong - suggestions always welcome!

Love and Peace,

Andy

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 07:00:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

Wow!

I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 07:41:36 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 28 JUN 1995 23:00:27 EDT

>Wow!

>I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

>the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

>about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

>

>Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

>If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

>

>Gene

OTR is one of FF Cop.'s projects, even as we speak, but I don't think

it's been announced who is appearing in the leading roles. I wouldn't

mind getting into a discussion about how _we_ would try and treat the

production, were it ours to treat.

This will probably be the one film that folks will have to hang Jack's

raincoat on... and I think my treatment would include more than the OTR

narrative. It would be interesting to have the action presented (through

flashback or whatever) by a 1967 Jack. The film would then include not

only the story of OTR, but also the fall-out of OTR.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:54:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.950628143322.97629A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>

from "Martin Taylor" at Jun 28, 95 02:35:46 pm

> Hello Kristen, try the newsgroup:

>

> alt.books.kurt-vonnegut

>

> martin

thank you! :)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:07:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

>

> Joseph Rodrigue wrote:

>

> >Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

> >simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

> >(before Joyce, say). I just fail to see what's so good about it. It is

> >_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

>

> And yet the Beats themselves had very great reverence for the English

> Romantics (see my favorite Ginsberg poem, "Wales Visitation," an explicit

> allusion to Wordsworth), Blake especially, and much of the ancient sacred

> literature; and in American literature for Melville at least, of the

> "classics." Of course Joseph, de gustibus non disputandum est.

I was thinking about this comment yesterday, and I realize why it is that

I am not always impressed with "classical" literature... I think it's

because I'm impetuous, for the most part, and Kerouac does offer that

spontaneous, from-the-gut, sort of writing that appeals to my impetuous

nature. I don't want to say that my youth is the only reason for being

this way...I've met many impatient people of all ages :).. and even

though I find it to be my biggest fault, it is part of what makes me the

person that I am. I guess it's all about what you are willing to accept in

your mind and your soul. :) There will come a time when I will be more

accepting. In some ways, I am. Joe talked about how others would

recommend books to him that he found deplorable. I know of so many

writers that I can relate to that have nothing in common, really,

other than my personal connection. I always try to keep an

open mind. :)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:24:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <950629013806_80620634@aol.com> from "Julie Hulvey" at Jun 29,

95 01:38:08 am

>

> >because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

> >sincere yet fictionalized perception of his brother.

>

> Coolness, Kristen....Yours is the first post I've received since starting

> this list and you love my favorite Kerouac book.

> The connection I've made to Kerouac's writings has always been through the

> heart. To this day I remember the way I felt the first time I read Visions of

> G about 20 years ago - as if I had stumbled upon a well of unashamed

> sweetness and tenderness. You could send me running back to the book right

> now, except that I'm just starting on William Vollmann's long "Fathers and

> Crows". There is something about Vollmann that reminds me of Kerouac.

> Perhaps they are both just the kind of sensitive bad boys that some women

> love (on paper at least).

I was wondering how other women feel about Kerouac. :) This morning, I

got to thinking about the women I've read about so far in OTR. Granted,

it is only a perception, and I'm only in San Francisco right now, but it

reminds me of my mother and the sadness I feel when I think of all that

she expected out of life and how disappointed and disallusioned she

became. I think there is a "sensitive bad boy" in me. Pete Townsend

said, "I am a man and a woman," and I believe that he meant sexuality to

be a perception and not a gonad. :) Jack's perception of women may

sadden me, but it was his reality. It's a reality that exists today.

I also got to thinking about "Visions of Gerard" and Jack's mother; how she

lived with the abuse of an alcoholic husband who could not face

death. My mother, to this day, will not accept and chooses to live in a

"drunken stupor" of her own. Jack shows that gender is not a factor when

one chooses to deny life.

Nice to hear from you. :) Peace.

Kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:30:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: cyberJack <jackb@MSI.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

> I, too, am new to the list but found your post enlightening. How

>good it is to find this list, to find other seekers.

I am always encouraged that one can find seekers everywhere.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:43:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <9506291307.AA25229@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

> because I'm impetuous, for the most part, and Kerouac does offer that

> spontaneous, from-the-gut, sort of writing that appeals to my impetuous

> nature.

Kerouac thought of writing as a performance, like a jazz musician who

has only one chance to perform a night, Kerouac wrote (performed)

straight through. You can't change or revise a improv jazz solo, and

Kerouac believed the same about writing.

JoAnne

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:49:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: First Reading of On The Road

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 29 JUN 1995 00:24:04 EDT

Date: Summer, 1973

Place: Guest room at Helen Forbes' house, a few miles out of Nairobi

Circumstances: Our family grew up in Kenya (my dad was in the United

Nations). Hell of a party melted into my having to spend the night at

the Forbes' place, rather than motorcycling home (20 miles). I woke up,

and the place was empty. The headboard of the guest bed doubled as a

book case, and I tipped my head back to scan the titles. _On The Road_

was the first and only book I pulled from the collection.

I recognized the author's name from readings about Dylan (Anthony

Scaduto's book, mostly), and from the liner notes off of "Blood On The

Tracks" (I think).

Once I started reading, I knew I was in trouble. My travelling feet had

long been itching... and I only stayed in one place long enough to

finish the book (one sitting).

I turned the last page, ran outside, hopped on my Norton 750, and tore

off for Mombasa (300-some miles away) (where I was certain that Kim was

waiting for me).

As it turned out, the book has remained faithful. Kim had found a new

guy, the bike led me into a bad wreck, and Scaduto's biography has been

poo-pooed. Yeah, OTR remains faithful to that first (and all subsequent)

readings... and I suppose Dylan has as well.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:54:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Reading of On The Road

In-Reply-To: <29JUN95.10614910.0010.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> from "Stedman,

Jim" at Jun 29, 95 09:49:42 am

> readings... and I suppose Dylan has as well.

> Jim Stedman

How true.

Kristen VanRiper

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:03:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Stan Bernstein <sbernst@PANIX.COM>

Subject: Kerouac audio tape

In-Reply-To: <29JUN95.08308993.0076.MUSIC@NMU.EDU>

At a Street Fair on Carmine Street in Greenwich Village, New York City

about five years ago, a vender had set up his table with "Spoken

Arts"-type tape casettes. I purchased one called "Jack Kerouac & Neal

Cassady--a private recording 1953--1954." The notice within the casette

case reads: "Jack & Neal together 1953-54 @ Cassady's house, San Jose,

CA. Neal reads Proust; Jack tries to correct his pronunciation of

'Gilberte'; Jack sings and reads from Dr. Sax. Neal approves, Neal

discusses Burroughs, Comment by Carolyn; 1967,8(?) reading from Vanity of

Dulouz and talking." Publisher of the casette is listed as Cassette

Gazette, 83 rue de la Tombe Issoire 75014 Paris, France.

Listened to this casette during a long bus trip and really enjoyed it.

Wonder if other such tapes are floating around and if so where do you get

them?

Thanks to whoever started this list--a truly great idea.

All best wishes/SB

sbernst@panix.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:21:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac audio tape

>sbernst@panix.com said:::

>Listened to this casette during a long bus trip and really enjoyed it.

>Wonder if other such tapes are floating around and if so where do you get

>them?

>

Ryko Disc came out with a box set of beat spoken performances a few years

ago that seems to have some similar material.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:58:32 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject: The tongue of angels

Salutations and halos,

Great to hear such rapturous appreciation of writing. Anyone else out

there into Gregory Corso as well ? And Vonnegut ? And Thomas Wolfe...

I know I'm probably pushing the definition of 'beat' here, but what the

forceps, if it's cool it's cool. I like that idea of writing being a one

off performance - reminds me of the debate in 'Naked Lunch'.

A confession to end : I've never read any Kerouac. Is his prose as

alive as Ginsbergs songs ? Which one should I start with ?

Peace and Pirhanas,

JJ

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:05:19 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:38:08 -0400 from <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

I just discovered Vollman, myself! In the past week I've read Whores for

Gloria and The Rainbow Stories. Both are *fantastic* and definitely Kerouac-

esque, in subject matter (S.F. counterculture and Tenderloin street scene) and

flowing, seemingly spontaneous prose style. In White Knights, an autobiograph-

ical account of Vollman's experiences hanging out with S.F. skinheads, one of

the skinheads remarks on Vollman's story (while loading a bong-hit): "Dee says

you need work on your grammar, you use too many run-on sentences. She should

know, she went to college." What a perfect comment on education, on how often

we kill what is good and natural and real in language, the forces Kerouac and

the other beats wrote against! I think Vollman owes much to Kerouac (and

Burroughs, to whom he is often compared as an explorer of the dark seamy

underbelly of the city.) What do the rest of you think about Vollman? Is he a

direct descendent of the beats? How does his vision of the Tenderloin compare

with Kerouac's? I'm not sure if a this list is even the place to talk about a

gen. x'er like Vollman, but this is the first contact I've had with others who

have even heard of him, so I thought I'd speak up...

--Win Mattingly

Also, what about Bukowski? Again, not strictly a beat but definitely some con-

nection. Does anybody know about any Bukowski lists? I'd also like to join in

some dialogue about H. Selby, esp. Requiem for a Dream and whatever he's doing

these days (I heard he teaches at USC, what about recent writing and confer-

ences?)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:33:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject: First Reading Of "On The Road"

The first time I read "On The Road" was in 1974. It was the

Summertime and I was scheduled to start at University in

the Fall. So, I decided to do some travelling. My brother

had given me the book and I read it as I hitchhiked from

Toronto to Vancouver and then north to Alaska. I was 17 at

the time and had an opportunity to expand my horizons in

many different ways. Reading "On The Road" and being on the

road at the same time is an experience that I will always

remember.

Hope those of you who haven't read it yet will enjoy it as

much as I did that Summer.

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:08:09 +5000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <joehler@[198.51.81.100]>

From: James Oehler <joehler@SUCCESS.NET>

Subject: Burroughs&Bukowski

Hello all,

I just joined to the group too. And I just heard someone mention

Bukowski, his books are great. I have read practically all of them, I

especially like what he has to say about people, that all of us

insane only a few a are sane. Which is quite true, but I am still on

the insane side for now. There is some other things I like about him

that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

way has anybody read his sons (I know he died) books i know he has one out

called

"Speed in combination w/ something else. Any new books by Bukowski

out yet? Anybody see "Barfly" that was a great movie. Also did

anybody pick up the record w/ William Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, that

is a great record. Never heard of Vollman can someone email a reply

and tell me who he is. As far as Kerouac books go I havent got into

him yet, all though my dad has all his Kerouac books layin around the

house, maybe I ll pick one up. But right now I am reading "Birth of

tradgedy" by Friedrich Nietzsche, pretty interesting so far. Alrighty

hope this sparks up some talking, cuz I am interested in those ?'s I

asked.

Later

--

__________________________________

joehler@success.net

__________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:12:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Baker <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <47D61018EF@bville.nwsc.k12.ar.us>

please take me off this list as fascinating as it is takes too much

time.Good luck to you all and best wishes to Bill G. Bill Baker.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:57:54 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Kerouac audio tape

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950629095046.19148A-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Stan Bernstein <sbernst@PANIX.COM writes:

------------------------------- Original Message --------------------------

At a Street Fair on Carmine Street in Greenwich Village, New York City

about five years ago, a vender had set up his table with "Spoken

Arts"-type tape casettes. I purchased one called "Jack Kerouac & Neal

Cassady--a private recording 1953--1954." The notice within the casette

case reads: "Jack & Neal together 1953-54 @ Cassady's house, San Jose,

CA. Neal reads Proust; Jack tries to correct his pronunciation of

'Gilberte'; Jack sings and reads from Dr. Sax. Neal approves, Neal

discusses Burroughs, Comment by Carolyn; 1967,8(?) reading from Vanity of

Dulouz and talking." Publisher of the casette is listed as Cassette

Gazette, 83 rue de la Tombe Issoire 75014 Paris, France.

-------------------------End Original Message ----------------------------

This note brings back memories. I lived for the last four months

of 1972 with Carolyn Cassady, and I heard that recording on the old

boxy rell-to-reel on which it was recorded. I particularly recall

Jack leaning into the mike while Neal was intoning in the background

now with his `Jeeeeeel-bahrt!' corrections during a recitation from

Proust.

Sure like to know if it were available generally...

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:18:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kirk Moe Brown <kirkmoe@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To: <9506291458.AA21174@comdev>

I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

come alive. The silence that first greeted my subscription was

disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation. I guess we were all just

a little shy...

I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

energy in the Beats. Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

machine organization.

For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

influenced by, the classics of the past. The beats traded the grim

reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR. I find it disturbing,

too. I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

saving grace for the work. We see that the Beats weren't infallible

sages, but seekers just like us. Perhaps we can model ourselves after

their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

vision of life and ourselves.

I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list. I really just wanted to

say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

Kirk

______________________________________________

"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:23:04 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject: Dressed up like a carcrash

To all the Bukowski devotees - yeah! I read 'Post Office' and it really is

a fresh breeze. 'In the morning it was still morning and I was not dead..'

Adieu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

There's a lot to this. You can't expect Kerouac, who was just a regular

young guy of the 1940's with a prodigious talent, to have absorbed all the

politically correct mores we (try) to live by now. And he was the chronicler

of it all, more than he was that much of an active participant. We

understand the whole movement because of his skill in bringing it to us so

vibrantly. I think it's possible to love Kerouac's writing without getting

particularly excited by the lifestyle it portrays, or especially liking the

rest of the work that others put out. HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece

of work, original and revolutionary, but (and I realize I may be destroying

the good-natured tone of the group over the last few days) the rest of it is

pretty second-rate, the spontaneityof it really a copy of what Kerouac had

come up with as a new approach to writing.

Also remember that Kerouac, ageing and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators. I think

quite a lot of us might not have liked him too much. He's still my literary

hero though

Nick W-W

>I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

>come alive. The silence that first greeted my subscription was

>disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

>buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation. I guess we were all just

>a little shy...

>

>I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

>energy in the Beats. Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

>Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

>dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

>machine organization.

>

>For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

>version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

>influenced by, the classics of the past. The beats traded the grim

>reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

>lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

>

>Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

>Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR. I find it disturbing,

>too. I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

>saving grace for the work. We see that the Beats weren't infallible

>sages, but seekers just like us. Perhaps we can model ourselves after

>their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

>vision of life and ourselves.

>

>I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list. I really just wanted to

>say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

>

>Kirk

>

>______________________________________________

>

>"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

>Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

>(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:37:28 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To: <199506291712.AA239905939@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

Weir-Williams on Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500)

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

> HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece of work, original and revolutionary,

> but (and I realize I may be destroying the good-natured tone of the group

> over the last few days) the rest of it is pretty second-rate,

What specifically was second-rate?

> the spontaneity of it really a copy of what Kerouac had come up with as a

> new approach to writing.

He didn't come up with it. Cassady did.

> Also remember that Kerouac, aging and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

> mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators.

Huh? You think nobody was blasting off against demonstrators in the 60's?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:36:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

In-Reply-To: <199506291614.MAA22819@a.success.net>; from "James Oehler" at Jun

29, 95 12:08 (noon)

> that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

> so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

> way has anybody read his sons (I know he died) books i know he has one out

> called

> "Speed in combination w/ something else.

How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

Tracey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:37:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott <kerouac@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>

Subject: Burroughs

Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

Scott Gillaspie

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950629123651.1561C-100000@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>;

from "Scott" at Jun 29, 95 12:37 (noon)

Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

>

> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

>

> Scott Gillaspie

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:18:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

>How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

>

>Tracey

>

According to Ted Morgan's brilliant biography of his dad, Literary Outlaw,

Billy died at 6:35am March 3 1981 of complications due to a liver

transplant. the Actual wording was, "acute gastrointestinal hemorage

associated with micronodular cirrhosis"

Andrew Schwartz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:03:43 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT from

<milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT Tracey L. Milton said:

>Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

>sorry for the misunderstanding.

>>

>> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

>>

>> Scott Gillaspie

>>

William Burroughs Jr. died of Cirrhosis (?) after a liver transplant in the

late 70's-early 80's, if I am remembering correctly. I recommend the excellent

Burroughs Sr. Biography titled Literary Outlaw written by Ted Morgan. Great

reading, excellent photographs. I know Billy B.'s first two books, Speed and

Kentucky Ham are in print (and in fact actually available in a single volume),

but does anyone know if the third one (titled, at least according to the Ken-

tucky Ham liner notes, Prikitti Junction, though I'm not sure about the spell

ing) is available? Burroughs Jr. possessed a magnificent talent (my opinion),

it's a shame his excesses blew it out so early.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:56:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

liver failure...he got liver transplant in 1976 and continued drinking. i thin

k he died in 1981 at the age of 34 or 35.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:01:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Beban <RBEBAN@DELPHI.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

> JoAnn Ruvoli wrote:

> Kerouac thought of writing as a performance, like a jazz musician who

> has only one chance to perform a night, Kerouac wrote (performed)

> straight through. You can't change or revise a improv jazz solo, and

> Kerouac believed the same about writing.

Au contraire. It's a wonderful, romantic myth that Kerouac's writing sprang

full-blown, first-draft, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, but the man,

like all great writers, was a craftsperson who revised his work. Writing is

rewriting.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:17:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Bukowski & the Beats

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95062911520612@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Win Mattingly" at

Jun 29, 95 11:05:19 am

On June 29 Win Mattingly wrote:

> Also, what about Bukowski? Again, not strictly a beat but definitely some

con-

> nection. Does anybody know about any Bukowski lists?

I am curious how others square Bukowski with the

Beats (or vice versa). I'm thinking primarily of Ginsberg.

Obviously Bukowski & Ginsberg share markedly different

backgrounds--geographically, economically, and politically.

And the two right away took vastly different approaches toward

how to position themselves in academic literary circles. In

terms of the poetry itself--and in terms of their shared

audiences--the two are similar enough that I wonder why they

rarely overlap (at least) when folks talk about contemporary

poetry.

Bukowski seemed to work so hard to carve himself a

solitary "outsider" position in literary circles that he left himself

no choice but to distrust Beats for their popularity and assimilation

(as treacherous as we all know assimilation can be).

Unfortunately, I can't go to my books and look for Bukowski

references to Beat writing, because I'm moving Saturday, and

all books are packed away. I do remember, though, that Neeli

Cherkovsky's biography of Bukowski portrays him, at best, as

indifferent to the Beats (again I'm thinking primarly of

Ginsberg). Even this indifference seemed a constructed pose,

though, from what I could gather in the rest of the (excellent)

biography, and from Bukowski's poetry and fiction as a whole.

I'm curious about what others think. The form and

content of Bukowski's work shares Beat sensibilities to a certain

significant extent, yet I've never seen the two camps meet

beyond indifference.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Trigilio * "How do you know but ev'ry Bird that

* cuts the airy way, / Is an immense world

* of delight, closed by your senses five?"

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu * (William Blake)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:51:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

I think I would like to discover Vollman. Is he the same William

Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding the

Oklahoma bombing?

Jeff Questad

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:03:24 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Joyce Johnson

I came to Kerouac when I was sixteen, which I guess is fairly normal.

That was 36 years ago. My eldest son is 24, and starting to straighten his

life out after a few foolish episodes. Four or five years ago he started to

take off for weeks at a time --just bumming around. Eventually, the light came

on. I said, Have you been reading Kerouac? He had, of course -- thought On

the Road was wonderful and wanted to act it out. Brought a lot of things back

to me. What I really wanted to say, though, was: how many people out there

share my view that Joyce Johnson could write the ass off the rest of them?

That, of that whole crew of writers and poets (for whom I still feel an immense

kinship and affection), she was the best of the lot? But that, because she was

a woman, that could not be recognised? the best of the lot? But that, because

she was a woman, that could not be recognised?

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:20:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: My first time

I think this list is going to be alot of fun. There are apparently alot

of young readers maybe young writers here encountering Kerouac for the

first time and perhaps finding the first literature that speaks to

them. Seems to be the most common theme, the sweetness, honesty and

appeal of Kerouac's novels for readers who have never been able to

relate to more "academic" writing. Probably almost all of us who love

Kerouac feel something more akin to love and fellowship than the kind

of respect you'll later feel for Joyce, Shakespeare or Hemingway, say.

And I'd bet also most of us read him young and may or may not have

continued to read his books later. This is not to say he's a kid's

writer. There is much that is serious and important in Kerouac.

I think On The Road may have been the first "real" novel I found on my

own, read on my own, loved on my own, and would stand up for. I was

probably 15, and I think I'd read nothing but Sherlock Holmes stories

to that point. The rest of that summer in Bandera, Texas I sought out

other Jack books and read Dharma Bums, Dr Sax, Desolation Angels, and

Maggie Cassidy at least. Maybe others.

Over the years my literary opinion of Kerouac has wavered, but reading

some of these posts reminds me of the first time books spoke to me.

Jeff Questad

Austin 6/29/95

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:27:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis

From: SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:50:52.67

To: BONELLI

CC:

Subj: Undeliverable Mail

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:50 -0700 (PDT)

From: Postmaster@sonoma.edu

Subject: Undeliverable Mail

To: <BONELLI>

Bad address -- <beat-l@cunyvm.edu>

Error -- Nameserver error: Unknown host

Start of returned message

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:49 -0700 (PDT)

From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

To: beat-l@cunyvm.edu

Message-Id: <950628125049.2060084b@sonoma.edu>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis For Real

From: SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:47:28.60

To: BONELLI

CC:

Subj: Undeliverable Mail

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:47:26 -0700 (PDT)

From: Postmaster@sonoma.edu

Subject: Undeliverable Mail

To: <BONELLI>

Bad address -- <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.SONOMA.EDU>

Error -- Nameserver error: Unknown host

Start of returned message

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT)

From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.edu

Message-Id: <950628124725.20601802@sonoma.edu>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis

I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite often) and

became hooked. I, too, am hooked into a spiritual connection with the author

which is hard for me to comprehend: he is often sexist and mostly a complete

ass to women, both in life and his writing. Yet, I am haunted and intrigued

by the relationship he had with Neal Cassady, allen, J. Clellon Holmes,

Burroughs and others. Also, the way he turned against his peers/fellow

"Beats" towards the end of his alcohol-induced delusionial life. I have

found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

who has also done grad. work on Kerouac, or who sees or is exploring the

connections between Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" and Kerouac's "On the Road."

Dig it,

Lisa B email me at: bonelli@sonoma.edu

End of returned message

End of returned message

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:07:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

BEAT-L)

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

Then this was written:

>I think I would like to discover Vollman. Is he the same William

>Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding >the

Oklahoma bombing?

Yep. He's a contributing editor to Spin. He also wrote a piece on

voodoo (I think) for the Spin Anniversary issue in April. I missed that one

--boo hoo.

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg quotation

>From the interview with Allen Ginsberg in Magic Blend, July 1995:

Ginsberg: "There was this explosion into a spoken poetry, which Kerouac

excelled at, and that ignited interest in Bob Dylan, who said that Kerouac's

_Mexico City Blues_ was the first American poetry book that really spoke to

him. I asked him why and he said, 'It's the only book of poetry I ever read

that spoke in my own language-- American rhythms and diction.' This was a

conversation we had at Kerouac's grave in Lowell, Massachusetts. So between

myself and Kerouac and a few others who influenced Dylan, this caused the

whole explosion of popular song."

Damion

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg and NAMBLA

At the begining of the recent Magical Blend interview by Tom McIntyre of

Allen Ginsberg it says "The recent sale of his collected memorabilia to

Stanford University became an explosive topic when the executive board of

that august bastion of conservatism discovered his relationship with NAMBLA

(North American Man Boy Love Association)." I knew of Ginsberg's support of

NAMBLA but hadn't heard that this was an "explosive" topic. What happened?

They bought the stuff anyway, right? So were there protests or something,

what form did the explosion take?

Damion

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 06:38:08 -0400

Reply-To: au405@freenet.Buffalo.EDU

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Harold Boss <au405@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac

In the 7/28-29 list someone downplayed Kerouac's jazz-inspired

writing by asserting that he was a craftsperson who revised his

work. This sent me running upstairs to look over an issue of

the "Paris Review" which had an articleabout the time Kerouac

submitted OTR for publication. Naturally, I can't find it right

now. I see that issue 40 (Winter-Spring 1966) is missing.

Perhaps it was that one. Who knows, itt's probably in the

attic. I'll search it out sometime.

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance). No

puncuation, no nothing. Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity). Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

Craftsperson he was. But he also knew how to blow a riff.

The above is from memory. And of something I read 30

years ago. It could be entirely screwed-up, but I do

remember being terribly impressed.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:33:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Madeleine Charney <m_charney@FOMA.WSC.MASS.EDU>

Subject: Re: My first time

It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

(year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

Open to anything new.

Although I wasn't in the place (didn't have the courage?) ti take

off and live a life like Kerouac's, I did relate to what I read

by simply sleeping outdoors every chance I got. Beside the lake,

in the dark, I often thought "There's got to be more out there."

And now as an adult I have the opportunity to explore that

moreness.

Thanks to all on the list for stimulating that memory in me.

-Madeleine

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:54:40 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject: Re: My first time - really that transcendent ?

In-Reply-To: <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>; from "Madeleine Charney" at

Jun 30, 95 9:33 am

I'm just about to go camping around France for 2 weeks.(Work dictates etc.)

And, as a long-time fan of Ginsberg, Corso, and many other 'Beat-affiliated'

writers(Vonnegut, Whitman, Thoreaux, Blake, and so forth) I've been sweetly

impressed by the strength of devotion to Kerouac's 'On the Road' on this

list. So, my question is : should I get this and read it as I'm travelling/

relaxing? Or should I stick to my original plan of blasting 'The Brothers

Karamazov' at last?

Peace and bubbles,

JJ

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:00:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: The Ju-Jitsu Monkey (a story)

Ju-Jitsu Monkey

...the evening star must be drooping and shedding

her sparkler dims on the prarie, which is just

before the coming of complete night that blesses the

earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's

going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags

of growing old...

Jack Kerouac

I fell asleep against the gas station wall, a sign reading

"West" on my lap. Time that seemed snap-your-fingers quick zoomed

by, and I was being shaken awake. I woke out of whatever world I'd

drifted into, and felt I was re-enetering that world where folks

aren't supposed to sleep against gas station walls. As I hit

atmosphere, I was already collecting together my bags, my guitar,

and my sign, figuring without being told that it was once again

"move along" time. I started getting to my feet, and then focussed

on who it was that had given me the shake.

"Hey, Pal, these guys are wondering if you want a ride?"

The man who'd woke me was sort of leaning over me, and his

voice and eyes were matched with a child's laughing quality. This

was no child, though.

His hair was grey and thin, and he had a stomach that only

decades of alcohol can produce. He had on an old flannel plaid

shirt, and worn-out khaki pants, unlaced hiking boots, and no

socks. Standing over me, he was as big as a cloud, but, like a

Russki circus bear, no threat. This mountain was not about to

charge into the gallery and maul the wide-eyed children, but was

getting ready for the act where he wears the enormous ruffly collar

and rides around the ring on a unicycle.

In his childeyes, there was a softness that told the world

that all's fine. He was standing over me, with his elbows resting

on his knees, laughing.

"These guys are riding all the way to Calgary! They're

wondering if you want a ride!"

There was a red Ford pick-up pulled up at the curb, with two

young kids in the cab, waving to me.

"If you're riding, come on!" they yelled.

"I've been riding with these guys since Montreal," continued

my escort, "and you aren't gonna find a sweeter passage."

I tossed my gear into the truck. We jumped into the back, and

I heard my travelling partner laugh as he saw my expression.

"These guys are hauling forty sleeping bags to Calgary. All

they want us to do is keep 'em weighted down!"

He pointed to a cooler, and I pulled out a couple of beers.

I tossed one to his side of the box, which he caught with a little

celebration's flourish. The truck pulled back out onto TransCanada

1, and, yee-hah!, we were on our way west.

"Without a doubt, Pal-- this is the sweetest passage ever

existed!" screamed the bear. Everything he said he screamed, and

everything he screamed was joyous and innocent. Words flew out with

exclamation marks tied on like kite tails.

I silently sang a hymn to our barelling along, following the

sun. I'd been spending too many months and years strapped to the

east, and now saw north and south travel as wasted time. Greed-in-

motion had taken over the entire seaboard, and varied only in

temperature along the coast. Take your Hamptons and your

Lauderdales, Bloomingdales, Kitty Hawks, and gawk at the gimme-

gimme-gimme as they line each town's Fifth Av, rubbing big

overcoated shoulders at the newstand and saying "Bill-- I didn't

see you at church last Sunday" and other such nosebody nonsense.

Anyway, I'd finally managed to cut the ropes with one more trip

north, for to have missed Toronto and its Elizabeth Campbell in the

summer would have been the wrong mistake. With that city put to

rest, and Liz put on hold ("Of course I'll be writing!" I tell her

as I walk down the lonely morning driveway-- having for some reason

refused a ride to the interstate), I was ready to pull away from

the east. Fare thee well to the Hudson and the Chesapeeque, fare

thee well, Tarrytown and Northport and St. Albans and the countless

other burgs where I'd been stuck alongside the shoulder, under the

overspasses waiting for the rain to piss and pass, behind huge

signs with their inscriptions (Been here too damn long, Bob From

Annapolis, June, 1968) and other such nonsense written down to

relieve the frustration of the time weary hitch hiker and also

enough to make the next bum along the way read the words and wail

in desperation's misery, for the only way to hitch hike is to plan

it slow-mo, and the only way to hitch hike is to party solo.

And now we were loose from it all, breaking out to where there

was enough air and space to look around and breathe it all in.

Heading west, and there's nothing like the feeling in the whole

world, nothing that's ever made me feel as free and wheee! as lying

back in that red truck's bed on my own bed of delivery duckdown

sleeping bags, taking a good, cool slug of the bear's beer and

watching the sun pass over my head and forward, calling me out to

the plains and Mississippi valley and lakes and rivers that I've

only known as lines on maps. It was hello to a new world, and new

people, and rodeo my rodeo.

Finally heading west. I wanted to scatter the ashes of

whatever the hell it was that I was finally able to shake alongside

TransCanada 1, where it could drift and blow in the jetstreams of

balling deisels, deciding west or east of its own. As for me, I'd

cashed-in. I looked over to the bear, who sat, looking back to

where we'd been, with a cheesburg grin. He must have read my mind,

holding up his beer can and shouting, "Fuck you, East Coast!" and

laughing loud enough to get the rest of the world that cared to

join along with him on the refrain.

"Fuck You, East Coast!" I screamed with the bear, and we were

joined on the third repeat by the kids in the cab, all of us

laughing as we balled our way to the horizon, the edge of the

world, and the waiting sun.

The bear, despite this salute and his joy, was a silent

traveller. He sat in the day's passing sun, reading tattered

paperbacks, scribbling pencil notes in the margins, and smiling to

himself. All the while I watched him, though, I thought to myself

why in the name of god does a man his age find himself travelling

alone. I also had a million other questions developing along the

lines of where ya going, who you gonna see, and other such... but

all the time not realizing that the reason he was here, rolling

west, was the same reason I was doing the same. Rolling west in

need of getting from as much as getting to, we were on identical

missions. The afternoon was upon us, and we were pulling into

Kirkland Lake. The two brothers in the cab were weary with their

travelling, having pushed straight through from Montreal without

a good sleep, and so we found a lake and a campspot.

After I helped Tim and Jim set up their tent, the bear and I

moved to the far side of the clearing, so as not to disturb the

boys. I took my guitar out of the case, and the bear pulled a

bottle of whiskey out of his suitcase. I'd been entertaining myself

with the guitar for twenty years, and so had learned a lot of

different styles and types of songs. The bear seemed to enjoy all

of it, though, and had enough of a musical sense to beat out

rythyms in the twigs and branches-- anticipating an ending 'tag'

line or finishing roll with each song.

At one point I started goofing with a sophomoric twelve-bar

blues pattern, and the bear stood up on his traveller's whiskey

legs, and started dancing under a canopy of low pine branches. The

branches hung so close to the ground, that he had to stoop and bend

his knees in order to continue his jungle jitterbug. I finished the

pattern off, and the bear whooped and performed a satorical

backwards flip out from the trees and back into our edge of the

clearing. I rattled my head, trying to make sure I'd taken the

whole scene in. The bear was in one look an ancient bum of a man,

a drunken fellahin, down down down on his luck. In flashes, though,

he became tender, vigorous, and exciting.

He flipped his way back to the spot where we'd set up our

"camp". I stared at him.

"What was all that about?" I asked.

"Welll my boyyyy," he said, mimicking W.C. Fields, "That was

called the ancient dance of the ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy. It was taught

to me by an artful dowager from Escondido.... she had a glass

eye...."

The bear took up his bottle and glugged a slug. We looked at

each other and howled at the setting sun.

I built a small fire, and the bear and I sat staring at the

tiny flames, poking and prodding the twigs and sticks in hopes of

disturbing some unspoken vision. I'd told him about my years in

Africa, and he prodded the pondered flames.

"I tried Africa," he said, no longer in his vaudeville voice.

"Went to Morocco and Algiers, freighted-over to see the same

damned gang that I'd been following around over here. It was like

"Hey man! We are wailing in Tangiers!", and alackadaddy, I was on

my way on some Yugoslavian rust bucket. Mysterious women, daggers

in the teeth..."

"Dawn donkeys pulling rolls of newsprint," I added.

The bear looked over to me.

"Yeah, there was that and I remember the solo voices calling

out great Ramadan prayers-- you could feel the dust settle as every

living thing stopped in silence."

"And then," I added, "Like a big slap in world's face, the

moment is passed-- the solar eclipse shadow pulls away..."

"And the world's turned upside down."

"And the world's turned upside down," I echoed.

I slammed off to sleep, and had dreams of the great unrolling

roads I'd done. TransCanada 1, the Nairobi-Mombasa Highway, the

Nairobi-Addis Ababa scratch in the desert earth, the New Jersey

Pennsylvania Ohio Indiana Illinois Wisconsin Minnesota patrolled

tollways, the lonesome Sahara stretch that busses sad loads of

dusty men and goats from El Eskandria west to Alamein, Matruh,

Rahman, and on to unknown Libya, and the corkscrew down spiral

roadway to the bottom of the volcano world of the Rift Valley

floor. Down each road and dream, the bear is walking at my side.

In the dawn, I stretched and shook off the dew and any desire

to sleep further. The boys were up, and sat around their own fire

with the bear, cooking fish. I walked out from under the pine

branches to where they sat in the smoke.

"You were having a good laugh and hoot last night," said one

of the kids.

"Hey yes," I said, "I hope it didn't disturb you guys too

much."

"Nah-- we slept like death," responded Tim.

"What were up to?" asked Jim.

I looked at the bear.

"An ancient ritual," I said.

"Ah, yesss..." said W.C. Fields, "the dance of the woebegone

ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy..."

I stood up and tried to copy his funny pine needle soft-shoe,

but had to give it up. If I were a dancer, I might been able to

stay with Elizabeth Campbell.

"Hey, bear," I called over to him, "why not show these guys

that crazy dance?"

I looked over to where he'd been sitting, but the bear was

gone.

The two Calgary kids were staring at me, slowly chewing their

fish.

There had been no one.

The boys said nothing, looking down at their farm boots like

children being given instructions. They were stuck with a me -- a

harmless lunatic.

We loaded the gear back into the truck, and took off from

Kirkland Lake. We blasted through Timmons and Iroquois Falls and

Cochrane. We had days and days to go before getting to Calgary--

in fact, when I looked at a map I ached on seeing that our real

direction had been pretty much north since I'd loaded into the

truck.

"Damn," I said softly, "I gotta get west!"

I'd read On The Road in 1970, after Jack had died. Ever since

that warm Nairobi day, though, when I turned the last page as Sal

vanishes around the city corner and the world says goodbye to

forlorn Dean/Cody/Neal, and the children are sleeping and that

blanket which has held so much road and so many people and so much

narrative is once again shook out and cleaned for the next 'bo to

fill up and trample across and sleep in... ever since that day I've

been waiting at the world's shoulders and entrance ramps, sleeping

in ditches, running, hiding from the midnight cruise lights of

protective patrols, and waiting waiting waiting for that time when

for some unknown reason his spirit would drift down from the

celeste, as would one of St. Theresa's petals, and find me on that

road heading north to head west.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <950629070026_104654329@aol.com>

Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD. Do you

all think he's the right director? At any rate, he's doing it. My guess

is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible. Al

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Gene Simakowicz wrote:

> Wow!

> I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

> the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

> about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

>

> Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

> If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

>

> Gene

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:46:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Willard Goodwin <wgoodwin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU

Lisa Bonelli wrote:

> I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

> of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

> researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite

>often) ...I have

> found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

> this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

> who has also done grad. work on Kerouac ...

Lisa: At the risk of duplicating what you already know, I list here seven

works about Kerouac (books and dissertations based on research in the

manuscript collections at the Humanities Research Center, University of

Texas at Austin). Of course, there's much more (including more recent

stuff), but since these titles are ready to hand, I thought you might like

to see the list. Best wishes, Will.

Cassady, Carolyn. Heart Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal. Berkeley:

Creative Arts Book Co., 1976.

Charters, Ann. Kerouac: a Biography. London: Andre Deutsch, 1973.

Gifford, Barry, and Lawrence Lee. Jack's Book: an Oral Biography of Jack

Kerouac. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1978.

Hudson, Lee. Beat Generation Poetics and the Oral Tradition of Literature.

Doctoral diss., University of Texas at Austin, 1973.

Hunt, Timothy Arthur. Off the Novel: the Literary Maturation of Jack

Kerouac. Doctoral diss., Cornell University, 1975.

McNally, Dennis S. Desolate Angel, a Biography: Jack Kerouac, the Beat

Generation, and America. New York: Random House, 1979.

Tytell, John. Naked Angels: the Lives and Literature of the Beat

Generation. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1976.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 23:33:49 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9506301457.C29692-0100000@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu>

(message from DAVIS ALAN on Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500)

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

> Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD. Do you all

> think he's the right director?

Who would you like? I can't think of anybody better than Coppola.

I wonder how well they can cast Dean Moriarty. That's essential. I can't

think of any name actor that can do it.

> My guess is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible.

I got news for you, kid. It already is a text.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:32:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

don't forget nicosia joyce johnson and carolyn cassady's off the road.

there's also a book by a professor and the univ of lowell who befriended kerouac

in the late sixties - i forget his name. interesting book/look at e period

in k's life that most gloss over because it's so depressing.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac movie

latest rumors i've heard from levi asher (literary kicks, web page) is

that coppola is directing it, not gus van sant. another rumor is that

dean will be played by sean penn and sal will be brad pitt. all this is

rumor so you didn't hear it from me. check out lit. kicks beat news for

more info than i can remember.

i just subscribed to this list yesterday and i must say i am impressed.

its so great to find others who are into the beats. five years ago i

really had to search for their books, now they're all over. should we

send the gap a thank you note?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 20:07:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject: Previous Kerouac Movie?

About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

his life. I also can't remember the title.

Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

and, if you saw it, what it was like?

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:56:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Aaron Hill <adhill@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac thesis

Howdy,

I don't know if this is your angle or not, but I did some work on

Kerouac's family, and their influence on him. I found that his ties to his

mother (whom he referred to as 'ma mere'), his sister, and catholicism were

at least as profound as those to his friends. Unfortunately for Jack,

these two groups didn't seem to mingle too well and I imagine that this

strained his relationship to both. Oh, don't forget that his family was

French-Canadian and that he didn't speak English until he was 4 or 5. I

read a biography of Kerouac by a French-Canadian author (whose name I can't

remember right now) which explored this aspect of his life in detail. If

you're interested, I can look it up.

Aaron

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 22:01:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Eric Trondson-Clinger <tronson@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

>About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

>about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

>whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

>his life. I also can't remember the title.

>

>Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

>and, if you saw it, what it was like?

There was a documentary called just "Kerouac" I believe and Carolyn

Cassady's "Heartbeat" was also made into a move in about 1976 with Nick

Nolte. Haven't seen either of 'em tho...

Submit gloried prose-pics-poetry to the beautiful mag-book-zine Holyboy Road

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric Trondson-Clinger Holyboy Road Home Page

tronson@primenet.com http://www.primenet.com/~tronson/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Was it nice, Jack?" - "All women are nice." Larry Smith and Jack

Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 00:54:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mike H. from Md." <mikeh@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>

Subject: Re: My first time

In-Reply-To: <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>

On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Madeleine Charney wrote:

> It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

> summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

> season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

>

> I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

> (year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

> Open to anything new.

Damn! At the age when I should have been reading Kerouac, I was

reading the classics that everyone else was avoiding! Now, years later.

I'm just starting to catch up!

Thanks for all the comments. If I'd had some of this stimulating

conversation, I would have gotten into Kerouac years ago!

Mike, Lurking in Md.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 01:05:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

as always,

das beatnik7

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:35:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To: <199507010805.BAA03010@ix5.ix.netcom.com>

_Visions of Cody_

It took me three months, but I think it is Kerouac's finest work. I read

it only after having read everything else of his, including _Pic_.

Michael Bertsch

Athena University

VOU, Inc.

http://www.iac.net/~billp/

Virtual Campus: telnet brazos.iac.net 8888

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 11:59:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

We should change this thread to "VoC - Kerouac's finest book". I too am a

steadfast VoC partisan - THAT is the novel I'm always foisting on others -

especially them who disliked OtR.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

(including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

Nick W-W

>i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

>yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

>web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

>the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

>page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

>film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

>fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

>i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

>as always,

>

>das beatnik7

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 23:54:24 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To: <199507032013.AA128292395@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

Weir-Williams on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500)

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-final version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus ... It contains an annotated

> version of the Dharma Bums,

On paper?

> ... and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that I

> never knew even existed.

What? Well come on, man, don't keep us in suspense. What is it like? Is it

just Dr Sax cartoons? When did he do it?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: kerouac and snyder

hello all--

with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

list feel about _dharma bums_?

and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

dependent on nationality. i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 00:32:37 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To: <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU> (message from THE WORLD IS ITS

OWN MAGIC on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500)

> From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

> with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

This was the second Kerouac book I read (after OTR) and I was expecting

something similar, which is probably why I didn't like it much. It had its

moments, though. It is not nearly as exciting as OTR, and over the years I've

never gone back to reread it. But thinking about it now it doesn't seem so

bad, and its description of the west coast poetry scene was very interesting.

I'd like to go back and check this one out again...

Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

and that the writing was not Jack's best. Perhaps someone else can recall for

us exactly what he said about it. But I for one have always been a bit

mystified by Ginsberg's estimations of Jack's books -- if I recall he was very

keen on Visions of Cody, which I find long, boring and impenetrable -- and

this is coming from someone with a healthy tolerance for Jack's notorious

self-indulgence.

VoC is not a novel, it's more like a weird kind of reference book...

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:57:44 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To: <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Regarding Snyder--

It would be best, in my opinion, to approach Snyder through the Native

American sense of place coupled with Basho's reverence for place. You

can look to Snyder books like _Turtle Island_ and his translations of

Japanese Haiku. The bridge image is Japhy jumping from boulder to

boulder dressed only in a jock strap. You might recall the Japanese

'fundoshi', the sild deaper-like garment now worn by Sumo wrestlers, but

which has a long and glorious tradition in the Samurai culture.

Michael Bertsch

On Mon, 3 Jul 1995, THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC wrote:

> hello all--

>

> with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

>

> and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

> gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

> and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

> in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

> dependent on nationality. i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

>

> claudia

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:59:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

Comments: To: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

In-Reply-To: <9507032132.AA37502@rs580a.haifa.ibm.com>

Josheph Rodriguez is right--VoC is not a novel, but he is also wrong: it

is more a poem than a reference book.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 21:52:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

i agree that _dharma bums_ probably lacks the 'magic' (if that's the

right word) that _on the road_ possesses. from a zen/buddhist

perspective, i think, it illustrates the tension between

studying zen and living zen and it raises the question to which

extent the dharma bums actually did understand the dharma

(clearly, there's more to zen than yabyums)-- but that's the

old scholar vs. practitioner debate that the folks on buddha-l

have recently fought (yet again).

what interests me in synder is his encompassing approach to myth

(i.e. the images he draws out of shamanic rituals and buddhist

philosophy). place figures very importantly in his poetry and

essays, but only as sort of a 'triggering town' (to borrow

richard hugo's phrase). and then there is, of course, the

place of the mind--the back country--to which one must go and

return from to effect change in one's self and one's society.

i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

speaks to the readers on this list. if yes, how? if no,

why not?

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:26:22 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

> contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

> (including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

> playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

> writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

> I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

> around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

>

Where will I be able to get a copy?

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:31:06 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: A Jack Kerouac ROMnibus

In-Reply-To: <35295@ldta.demon.co.uk>

For full details of this, check:

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/titles/kerouac/

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 23:51:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire 362 7134 <mmaguire@OSM.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Snyder

Joseph Rodrigue wrote re _Dharma Bums_:

> Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

> and that the writing was not Jack's best. Perhaps someone else can recall for

> us exactly what he said about it.

I enjoyed _Dharma Bums_ very much and appreciated it even more once I had

read the Ginsberg biography by Barry Miles, in which many of the _Dharma

Bums_ events are retold using the characters' real names.

Ginsberg, after reading an advance copy of D.B., wrote the following to

Jack:

"The whole thing's a great piece of religion testament book, strange thing

to be published. . . . You settling down in simpler prose, or just tired

like you said? Montgomery is great in there, and Gary is fine too. I

don't dig myself (too inconsistent mentally)(in the arguments). It is a

big teaching book which is rare and spooky."

Barry Miles goes on to say that, although Ginsberg "didn't regard the book

as up to Kerouac's usual standard, this didn't stop him from promoting it

for all he was worth".

_____________________________________________________________________

Mary Maguire

mmaguire@osm.utoronto.ca Toronto, Canada

"... a hum came suddenly into his head, which seemed to him

a Good Hum, such as is Hummed Hopefully to Others."

_____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 21:52:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder and pigeonholes

Claudia writes:

>i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

>community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

>speaks to readers on this list.

claudia

I'm curious also. Having heard him in San Francisco

before we both went to Japan (for different reasons), and

then again at an ecology conference in Kansas in the seventies,

and as a distinguished voice from the past giving a reading

in the eighties, I am aware that he and his thought and writing

have changed over the years - as they have changed me.

I think he has managed to break out of the pigeonhole that

controls and strangles the "beats" = their return to popularity

is in many ways, I think, a way of keeping them and the spirit

they represented at the time under control. True followers of

the beats would I feel follow their spirit, and not simply

worship them as if from a faraway time.

Tom Bell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:18:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: ....

As a product of "institutionalized education" I have always done what was

expected of me. I regurgitated grammar and wrote what my

instructor wanted to hear; in a form that he/she approved

of, with proper punctuation, of course...etc, I'm sure you have the idea.

Kerouac goes against all that brainwashing and blind obedience. He has

given me one of the greatest gifts I've ever gotten from an author...the

courage to go against what others want to hear and to listen to my instincts,

at least when it comes to my personal writing. The stuff I churn out on paper

I don't reveal to anyone...but to feel the freedom and to let go of the

control has been the best thing I have ever done for me. Thanks Jack.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:48:16 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: ....

Regarding Kristen VanRiper's observations on the liberating effect reading

Kerouac has had on her prose style, I think we can carry things too far

sometimes. Let's not forget that when Kerouac began his experiments with

spontaneous prose, he had already written a million words and mastered the

more traditional styles of prose composition. He wasn't jettisoning what

had gone before, he used it as the point of departure for his forays into

new modes of expression. This issue reminds me of the message we had last

week wherein a list participant asked whether we though he should spend

his summer reading the classics or reading Kerouac. My answer, like I

think Jack's would be, is "read the classics if you haven't read them."

Kerouac certainly did. He was conversant in the works of all the great

masters of literature, even if he didn't emulate them in his own work.

Kerouac would frequently hide out in one place or another with armloads

of what is considered "great literature" not because he wanted to put

his mind in some jail, but because as an artist he needed to know what

had come before. Much has been made of the jazz nexus in Kerouac's work,

and he clearly was trying to recreate the natural rhythms and expressions

found in the music of Charlie Parker and others. But don't forget that the

great jazzmen were (and still are) the consummate masters of their

instruments. Miles Davis could soar into rapturous flights of inspiration

only because he had honed his skills to the point where intention and

expression were one mind-body event. So, if you don't know how to punc-

tuate a sentence, don't expect to write like Kerouac. If you haven't

read Celine, Blake, Milton and Shakespeare, don't expect to achieve

Jack's depth. If you're not the master of your craft, don't be sur-

prised if your prose is pedestrian. Jack's way is not the lazy,

undisciplined way - that was the insult his critics threw at him.

Recognize the rigor behind the rapture.

Just my thoughts. Not intended as a flame of anyone's POV. Thanks

for reading!

Mark Gordon

--

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 14:57:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Are You On Our Mailing List?

Our mail-order catalogue is filled with the best from Beat writers: Kerouac -

Ginsberg - Burroughs - Corso - Whalen - McClure, many others. Nice used

copies, scarce first editions, recordings, videos, posters, T-shirts, etc.

Thousands of Beat items in stock. Lots of Bukowski too. If you'd like to be

placed on our mailing list, please send your snail-mail address. It's free.

Satisfaction guaranteed. Free Search Service too.

Cisco Harland

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

Fax 508-229-0885

e-mail waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 19:35:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

Tom Peyer

11005 SW 88th Street #C-107

Miami FL 3376

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:41:16 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject: summary

Friends of Beat-L,

I'm going to post this directly to the list, since my "replies" to other

postings don't seem to have made it. The volume of postings is getting hard

to keep up with, so if you're only scanning to find "new" contributions you'll

want to quickly delete this and move on. What I wanted to contribute was a

partial summary of postings to date.

There has been an explosion of activity on this list in the past two

weeks, after a relatively small amount of activity when it first started. The

first postings that I remember had to do with the rumored film of OTR, rumored

to be directed by Coppola, who was rumored to be casting Sean Penn as Moriarty

and Brad Pitt as Sal (or it may have been the other way around). Discussion

about the casting proposed other Hollywood stars (after noting that K.

himself, back then, proposed Brando as Moriarty and Monty Clift as Sal) for

the lead roles--Gary Oldman (Moriarty), Johnny Depp (Sal), etc. A friend of

mine who has written a wonderful novel which conjures up some images of Neil

Cassady exploded over the casting and said the people who should be playing

those parts are in the coffee shops and road hangouts, not in Hollywood

agents' offices.

Another recent topic of interest seems to be "that movie" about Kerouac.

The one I remember was called "What Ever Happened to Jack Kerouac?"--an

excellent video documentary that included the classic film clip of Jack

reading from OTR while Steve Allen improvised jazz on his piano.

The topic of K's writing habits--was OTR produced in one (benzedrine

tended to be a stimulant of choice at the time) mind-altered session, or was

it the product of careful redrafting? I've primarily heard the written in one

session version--although it was probably not done on "computer paper rolls"

(as one friend suggested), since pc's weren't on the scene at that point. I

have read that he had some sort of continuous roll of paper that it was

produced on, though (or maybe I "heard" that--the ongoing oral history of the

Beats). The jazz improvisation, stream of consciousness was definitely an

important part of his writing. As a related thread--Kerouac the poet vs.

Kerouac the novelist: we've been reminded of Mexico City Blues as an important

part of his work (and one that the person who had arrived at reading Kerouac

after being primarily interested in poetry should check out).

Another interesting thread has been the Zen connection to the Beats

(critical appraisal's of Dharma Bums; Gary Snyder's work), and through it some

important observations and challenges concerning the way we perceive "the

Beats"--as a historical period or a way of being/frame of mind and spirit that

continues (maybe both). A related interlinear has been the occasional

surfacing of "critical theory" discourse on the importance of Beat literature

in relation to the "classics"--which aspects of the Beat voice speak to whom

and why.

The "my first time" (reading OTR) thread has produced some remarkably

poignant vignettes--I'd like to try to put them together and make the

collection available to the list.

Finally, one of the things that I value most about the discussion on this

list has been the developing sense of the people who are

contributing--Kristen, Claudia, "jrodriguez" (identified from the email

address), and Mark Gordon (who posted some of the earlier messages that got

the list going and has contributed some valuable insights from a writer's

perspective). Thanks to all of you for enriching the List.

Keep that level of thought and feeling!

Brian

Melbourne, Australia (via Denver, Berkeley, and LA)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

of urgency. and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence. in that respect

it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

about the relative literary merits . . . ginsberg is a top notch

marketing expert . . . i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

that was/is sheer genius.

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:09:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

>i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

>line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

>but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

>of urgency. and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

>struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence. in that respect

>it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

>

>as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

>about the relative literary merits . . . ginsberg is a top notch

>marketing expert . . . i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

>that was/is sheer genius.

>

>claudia

I was just reading in Tom Clark's biography of kerouac that he complained

that the editor (malcolm Cowly, I think) edited out all the catholic parts.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 02:08:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject: Crank Beat-L mail; do not open if you'll be charged.

Sorry to dump all of this extra mail on you all...

First, there was the letter composed only of my name and street address,

which I intended to send only to the people who solicited the beat literature

catalog...

And now this pitiful follow-up, which asks only that you please don't show up

on my doorstep.

Your pal,

Tom Peyer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 06:36:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

timothy--

i haven't read clark's bio of kerouac (yet). what did kerouac say

about the catholic parts being edited out of _db_ by cowley? what sort

of things had kerouac included? it seems to me that catholic myth/ritual

etc. would have given the book a broader range or greater depth

(in the joe campbell sense of comparative mythologies). most

interesting. hm. . . .

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:33:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: zen

Seeing postings about Kerouac and Zen made me realize a sense that I have

gotten from the little I have read by him. In _Visions of Gerard_,

Jack wrote about his Catholic upbringing and his sainted brother.

His exaggerated glorification of Christian ways and Christian people shows

how this way of life, this Catholicism, ultimately absorbs the present and

focuses only on that which may or may not happen in the future. I think it

was his first realization of the "denial of life" and the obsession with an

"afterlife" that people get sucked into...it's what probably gave him the

urge to go on the road...not wanting to be stuck worrying about what would

happen when he died...wanting to be alive.

Regarding the emoting I did yesterday, :), I just want to elaborate...

Jazz is a feeling, true, but there are progressions that one must

learn. Not all feelings make sense or are expressed in a way that others

might understand unless they are clarified. A truly great jazz artist is

one that develops these skills over time...and I do believe that

improvisation is a developed art form. I only wrote that blurb because I

have always had a hard time transferring emotion to my fingers (in music

and writing) and since I've been reading Kerouac, and other authors that

I have neglected for some time, I've been able to express myself. I was

merely basking in the freedom I have found. :) Take it easy. Kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:37:43 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Some thoughts on Kerouac's "method"

Hi. I'm coming out of lurk-only mode to comment on a couple of recent posts

I think may indicate a lack of understanding of Jack and his grounding in

classic literature and compositional styles. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A FLAME

OF ANYONE. I'd rather disconnect my internet access than get into a war of

words. I just think that we fans of Kerouac can very often fall into the trap

of unknowingly siding with those who criticized him so viciously during his

lifetime. The two posts I refer to are Kristen's recent comment on how reading

Jack has liberated her own prose style from the prison of conventional grammar

and punctuation, and an anonymous post wherein the writer asked whether we

thought he should spend his summer reading the classics or not. I think those of

us who love Jack's work should remember that he was solidly grounded in both

the canon of classic literature and conventional prose composition. Let's not

forget that he had already written a million words by the time he began experime

nting with his spontaneous method. Rather than simply jettisoning what had gone

before, Kerouac used it as a point of departure for his forays into new modes

of expression. When , in Kerouac's name, we reject out of hand the conventions

ofEnglish composition, we run the risk of making the case for Jack's critics

who

accused him of being lazy and undisciplined. Jack had already mastered standard

composition when he wrote OTR. If you haven't mastered it, don't expect to

emulate him. A useful parallel for this is jazz, the source of so much of

Jack's inspiration. Charlie Parker, the father of bop, was a consummate

musician. Before he could soar into flights of rapturous ecstacy, he had to

spend years mastering the rudiments of his instrument and his art. If you were

to ask Charlie Parker to play a Bach fugue, he could do it, though perhaps he'd

prefer not to. Whether it's Jack or Bird, take care to see and hear the rigor

behind the rapture. In the same vein, let's remember that Jack was intimately

familiar with the grat classics of literature. He had read everything from S

Shakespeare to Milton to Celine to Hemingway. Certainly he didn't like it all,

and he clearly didn't emulate it all, but he knew it, and that knowledge gave

a depth to his own work that resonates throughout the Duluoz Legend. In my

own opinion, if you are sitting down to read Kerouac but haven't read Wolfe,

Faulkner or Celine, read them first. Jack did. Again, the charge of his critics

was that his work stood alone, outside the mainstream of American letters, and

that this was chiefly becase the author himself didn't display a familiarity

with the past. Those critics were wrong about Jack. Let's not make them right

about us. Thanks for reading. Sorry for the length. Peace to all.

Mark Gordon

--

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500 from

<952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Dharma Bums was the first book that really "hooked" me on Kerouac. The

magic of the hitchhiker and his rucksack, the fabulous opening sequence with

the midnight ghost and the old bum who prayed to Saint Theresa of the Flowers,

and the descriptions of mountain climbing and S.F. poetry renaissance (Howl be-

comes Wail, and of course it is K. who takes up the collection for bottles of

wine), were enough to prompt me at the age of fifteen to get an old duffle bag

and leave what really was (through my now adult eyes) an intolerable home situ-

ation. He taught me to hang out my thumb and trust my instincts, even gave me

a spirituality (zen) to combat the influence of, ironically, a strict catholic

upbringing. For these I'll always be grateful to Dharma Bums. Still, now that

I'm older and have reread most of Kerouac's work several times, I believe

On the Road has far more literary merit. I still enjoy Dharma Bums (and find

something more to like about it every time I read it), but the rhythm and ener-

gy of On the Road are unlike book written before or since, stylistically it is

unique in American literature. In On the Road Kerouac pinned down what it is

to be young and American (and male?). Distance becomes a metaphor for possi-

bility (check out Tom Waits' medley Ballad of Neal and Jack/California Here I

Come for a feel for what I mean). Regarding Dharma Bums, I read a quote from

Kerouac somewhere (Jack's Book?) where he said D.B. was written to allow him to

keep the cupboard full of tins of meat for the cat and jugs of wine, or some-

thing to that effect. While I'm not that cynical (and K. may have said this

later in his life when he was dour about just about everything), I do think

that D.B. is less ground-breaking literature than a good story. Hell, most

writers are lucky if they can pull even that off.

I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

Win Mattingly

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:13:07 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Double Posting

I think I've posted a couple of long messages to the list in the last

couple of days, but I can't be sure because they're not coming to me.

Sorry if I've chewed up anybody's bandwidth. Could someone email me

and let me know whether these messages are getting to all of the other

list recipients or not? Thanks.

Mark

--

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: The Desolation Angels

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 06 JUL 1995 08:46:11 EDT

I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained

material originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript. I

would love to see a release of _that_ manuscript... when TS Eliot's

Wasteland manuscript was published, I was really drawn in by the notes,

comments, and corrections supplied by Pound, Eliot, and others.

Imagine marketing the teletype manuscript as just that, a roll of paper

(instead of a bound book).

Does anyone know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it

housed?

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:48:58 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Johnson <johnsorl@COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double Posting

Comments: To: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

In-Reply-To: <199507061413.AA18291@osfn.rhilinet.gov>

Yes, your messages have appeared. Some list groups do not post

messages back to the sender. Just cc your postings back to yourself

then you can be sure of their arrival to the list at large.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:02:56 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: OTR teletype roll

In-Reply-To: <06JUL95.11471647.0015.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> (JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU)

> From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

> I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained material

> originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript ... Does anyone

> know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it housed?

I read a passage from the roll once ... it was quite different from OTR as

published. I can't believe no one has tried to squeeze money out of

publishing the original roll. It would be fascinating reading.

As for the person who was talking the other day about Kerouac never revising

-- get in touch with me. I've got a bridge for you.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:05:17 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

My understanding is that Kerouac typed OTR on narrow rolls of Japanese

wallpaper, double length, which he then taped together to form one

continuous surface. I think that comes from Nicosia's book, or perhaps

Tytell's. I seem to remember also that the rolls were lost or destroyed

when turned in to the publisher for transcription and editing. Then again,

I could be wrong. Thanks for letting me know about the double posting.

I think I've got the hang of the routine now.

--

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:32:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Subterraneans

To my shame, I only just read 'The Subterraneans'. It is different, and, I

agree, as lyrical and as close to a love story as I think he ever wrote. I

collect old Kerouac paperbacks for the covers as much as anything else (does

anyone else do this, incidentally - you can find some wonderful things in

second-hand bookstores) and The Subterranenans edition I read, I was too

ashamed to read on the Chicago 'L' going to work - clearly being sold in the

70's with a cover both sexist and racist. But the book is a love affair,

really, told in one breath.

Re Ginsberg: he may have claimed not to have liked -DB- but he was happy to

read it on audio (released in the last few years) and take the money...

> I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

>book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

>reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

>taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

> Win Mattingly

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:59:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

rumor has it that:

The OTR teletype roll is presently on deposit at the New York Public Library.

Previous to its move there recently, it sat

in the safe at lit agent Sterling Lord's office.

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 19:57:51 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: subterraneans

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95070609445880@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> (message from Win

Mattingly on Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT)

> From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

> I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

> book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

Please. What's sexist and racist about it? Try getting out of the dodo PC

mindset and use your brain for a change.

This has to be one of the most self-indulgent books I've ever read. No one

picked up on that? Or do you just fawn over everything you read?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:21:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Matthew C. Curcio" <curcio@BIOC02.UTHSCSA.EDU>

Subject: folklore

Hello

I too have just joined on board with you beats.

I also liked Kirsten interpretaion of _Visions of Gerard_.

Not having a sibling that passed away, I thought the angelic nature of

Jacks younger brother was due to the inocence and beauty of youth.

IMHO I thought this elevation to sainthood was due the lackof outside

forces that played so strongly on Jack's life that did not play on the

child of Gerard. For example, the strict catholic school upbringing that

Jack had which forced conformity of language, societal rules etc on Jack.

seemingly corrupted as the

outside forces of society and post WWII conformity laid down its

oppressive blanket on Jack.

Aother point that seems to dovetail with the sainthood of characters was

something also from the listserv.

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance). No

puncuation, no nothing. Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity). Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

The Folklore that I have seen on the writing of OTR is that

Jack wrote the book on newswire paper. (You know that big rolls that

were used for the old AP machines. The 'Folklore' says that he wrote it

in 3 weeks. Writing for days at a time while on speed and then crashing

for as long. The book may not have contained all the proper punctuation

but it also was written without chapter format. Jack had left all the

names that mattered to him in the first draft,(ie the some of the real

names) and the rest he foughtfor as little editing as possible.

But then again these are only second hand accounts I have read.

Also, I have an other book on Zen that I would like to suggest that is IMHO

better than _Zen and the Art ..._ It is _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones_ edited

and compiled by Persal(?) P??? something. These are small stories and

meditations that are really great.

Enjoy,

Matthew

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:33:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

FYI: Kerouac's original teletype roll manuscript for OTR is now on display

at the New York Public Library in New York City.

Frank Beacham

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:52:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

>timothy--

>

>i haven't read clark's bio of kerouac (yet). what did kerouac say

>about the catholic parts being edited out of _db_ by cowley? what sort

>of things had kerouac included? it seems to me that catholic myth/ritual

>etc. would have given the book a broader range or greater depth

>(in the joe campbell sense of comparative mythologies). most

>interesting. hm. . . .

>

>claudia

I don't know. It was a one line sort of thing. It said that kerouac

complained Cowley took all the catholicism out (in a qutoe that I cannot

remember verbatim) and also that he would never write another potboiler

again (also a quote). Each quote was referenced, but that was all there

was on the subject.

I agree with your point of view that it would have made the book richer. I

think we can look at Tristessa and Visions of Gerard to get an idea of what

it might have been like if these parts hadn't been edited out.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:53:52 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bruce Greeley <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR teletype roll

Comments: To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

I just joined this list....

In a brief news segment anniversary on the New York Public Library

recently on t.v. , they mentioned (and showed) this sacred On the Road

original teletype roll housed in the archives there!!

someone check it out for me!

- Greeley not Creeley

----------

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: OTR teletype roll

Date: Thursday, July 06, 1995 6:02PM

> From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

> I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained material

> originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript ... Does anyone

> know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it housed?

I read a passage from the roll once ... it was quite different from OTR as

published. I can't believe no one has tried to squeeze money out of

publishing the original roll. It would be fascinating reading.

As for the person who was talking the other day about Kerouac never revising

-- get in touch with me. I've got a bridge for you.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:19:22 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR teletype roll

The OTR scroll is in the care and keeping of the Berg Collection of the

New York Public Library. Yes, it was on display during the same period as

the Kerouac Conference at NYU at the beginning of June. Incidentally, the

NYPL will be the repository of the Kerouac archives as they are

cataloged, etc. and already contains a bunch of stuff.

Mark Hemenway

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

Co-Editor "Dharma beat" the magazine of all things Kerouac, and

Chairman of Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

Join us in Lowell, MA, 4-9 October for the Eighth Annual Kerouac Festival

"Everyone comes home in October."

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:51:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject: OTR Roll Still on Display

The Kerouac scroll of OTR is still on display (at least it was last week)

on the third floor at the NY Public Library. According to info at the

exhibit it will soon be copied using some high quality duplication process

due to its deteriorating condition.

There was also a mention among panelists (on a publishing panel) at the

recent Kerouac conference at NYU of the possibility that a fascimile OTR

scroll that's an exact replica of the original might be published in the

near future. From what was said such a publishing project is under active

consideration but not certain by any means.

Frank Beacham

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: OTR Roll Still on Display

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 06 JUL 1995 01:51:23 EDT

Jack told Steve Allen that the manuscript was typed on a teletype roll,

and that it took three weeks to write. From memory, I think the exchange

goes something like this:

Steve: Three weeks??? How long were you on the road?

Jack: Six years

Steve: I was once on the road for three weeks and it took six years to

write about it.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:05:37 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Racist/sexist projection in The Subterraneans

I think the debate over the allegedly sexist or racist nature of The

Subterraneans is misguided and exemplary of the mindset which condemns

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn for its use of the "N" word.

Let us admit that Kerouac was a product of his times and his background as

first generation white American. Like many other white people, then and now,

he romanticized the culture, personalities and even bodies of African-

Americans. Who can help but chuckle when they read his paean to the

"happy Negroes of America" in OTR? We know that African-Americans aren't

all that happy all the time. Why should they be? They're just people and

people aren't typically elated, to put it mildly. Kerouac was

romanticizing them, objectifying them in a way, because his experience

of their lives as actually lived was so meager. Also, he was pining to

be anything other than what he so drearily was at that moment: a white

man. It's the same with Mardou. She is strange to him. Alien. He can't

imagine what it's like to be inside her skin and so he concentrates on the

part of her that is different from other women he's known: her hair, her

cheekbones, the color and texture of her skin. This is entirely natural.

Which of us who has had an intimate relationship with someone of another

race hasn't felt the tingle of the exotic, that almost intoxicating

fascination that comes from close proximity to someone so attractive and

yet so physically different? If you claim otherwise, I say you're a liar.

You just didn't write honestly about it, as Jack did. Most of us who

persist in these relationships soon find that the object of our affection

is indeed no different than we are on the inside. People are just people,

after all. But there is power and mystery in physical differences. The

problem today is how to express that mystery without some moral cop writing

you a ticket.

Sexism is a much greater problem in Kerouac. It's clear that he was nearly

misogynistic in his views toward women, views no doubt reinforced by

heterosexual cads like Cassady as well as homosexual

--

Mark S. Gordon

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:59:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: To flame or not to flame

This observation could just as easily apply to almost every list or

Usenet group I've looked at in my short time on the Net. And applies to

pretty much every other Net group more than it does here, where I've

found most everyone to be sweet and generous.

Alot of Net users are gregarious and bold, the anonimity of the

situation empowering them to say whatever they feel. The same freedom

that allows a self-taught person to converse with an academic

encourages some people to attack others simply because they can. I'm

afraid a couple of my friends who helped with my setup before I got on

line I now recognize are of this type. They like to attack others,

belittle them and mock them. I guess most of us have never felt free

to walk into a room and laugh at the first person who opens his mouth.

For some reason this is very exciting to some people.

I haven't seen it happen here, but I know most of us have experienced

it in one form or another because there is a distinct fear of flaming

between the lines of many of the posts on BEAT-L. Statements that

begin "This is just my opinion PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME" show this fear.

I think most of us are gentle souls looking for friends and no matter

how "safe" the internet is, nobody wants to be jumped on for stating

his opinion. I think most of us think harder than we should have to

about what we post out of fear of an individual or group reacting with

harsh and painful words. Or more often, "if I disagree with this

person, will he/she think I am trying to hurt them".

This is an aspect of on line life I don't expect will change, but I

would state that I joined this list recently thinking it a literary

discussion group. And it is, but how far can it go if we are afraid to

critisize or be critisized. If I make a remark and you know or believe

differently, I would welcome a response. I also hope to be able to

debate without hurting someone's feelings. I'd add that even more than

being afraid of flames, we are afraid someone will think our gentle

remarks are malicious and we are scared to disagree.

I make these comments not in response to anything on this list other

than three or four postings that contained emphatic apologies in

advance.

And I realize one of the main ways to get flamed is to write an overly

long message. But I'm not apologizing. Responses of all sorts welcome.

Jeff Questad

Austin, Tx

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 20:23:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject: Re: To flame or not to flame

burn baby, burn.

or to be more specific:

"Whee. Sal, we gotta go and never stop going till we get there."

"Where we going, man?"

"I don't know but we gotta go."

-Jack Kerouac, On The Road, page 238

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

The Radiation Group Globalmedia Designs

Putting Your Business in Their Laptops

http://www.magicnet.net/rz/rad_home.html

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 22:18:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: To flame or not to flame

jeff--

i think flames differ from genuine disagreements about the content

of someone's message. i have no problem with arguing my point(s)

and exchanging ideas. how else will i be able to learn, if not

by being exposed to different opinions? i might not agree with

all of them, i might reject some of them completely, or i might

see truth(s) in them. but every exchange gives one an opportunity

to construct knowledge a bit differently (not to groove in the

same old constructs for all eternity).

the problem comes when people attack the writer of the message, rather

than the message. i have been on lists where the usual reply

to post was something like "you moron, you have no idea what you

are talking about; let me show you the real truth!" well, that's

unkind and unnecessary, and leads to those flame wars where positions

get so entrenched that genuine inter-change is impossible.

the culmination usually is some type of heated name-calling, in

which the person with the biggest four-letter vocab wrestles

everybody into submission. it's fun to watch for about a day

or two, and then the delete button becomes my best friend.

i try to write my messages and responses with the realization of the

inherent buddha-nature in every sentient being, but at times,

due to the nature of this medium, words can obscure meaning

and intention . . .

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:00:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: To flame or not to flame

In-Reply-To: <950706221829.6ae8@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

I am the Buddha known as the Poster.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:35:13 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: To flame or not to flame

I've been on the net for about six years and have been involved in many

a flame war, particularly on the Usenet newsgroup sci.skeptic where, if

you even suggest a belief in God, you invite mortal combat. My experience

is that flame wars are just a big waste of time - all heat, no light.

Regrettably they are also a tool used by some cowardly souls whose only

power resides in the ability to post relatively anonymous text.

Whenever my comments are in direct response to someone else's, I always

include a flame disclaimer, not because I fear retribution, but because

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. If people want to come after me,

they're welcome to, but I won't come after them.

--

Mark S. Gordon

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:08:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: flaming?

I guess I'm a little dense, or the flaming has been private among other

readers, but I haven't read anything in this list that I would consider

to be flaming. I've seen honest opinions, maybe some emotional

responses, but certainly nothing that I would take personally. In fact,

the messages I received this morning all appeared to say the same

thing...this is an open forum and we should all respect the rights of

others to voice their opinion in a dignified manner. It's what I enjoy

most about this list. Personally, I'm not afraid of other people voicing

opinions that are contrary to my own, I am just not used to exposing my

soul to strangers (even to people I love dearly) so I tend to be shy

about intense subjects. I don't get angry when people close their

minds...it makes me sad. Intolerance is rampant in this world; I'd like

to think I found a place to be free of this disease. Peace to all. Kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:41:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: back to spontaneous prose

--

----------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Creator of Literary Kicks, the Beat Literature Web Site

URL: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

Please preview my new Web project, Queensboro Ballads

URL: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

"How can you have any pudding if you won't eat your meat?"

-- Pink Floyd

----------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 00:23:12 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: summary

Dear All

Thank you, thank you, thank you, whoever put this list together (was it you

Brian?). I first read Kerouac at that time when I'd just left college and felt,

from the comfort of my own back garden, that I could do anything. He continues

to inspire me to go further and deeper, like no other writer has done or will

do. I recently kicked in my job and am now 'freelance' which is a lot to do with

the way this 'crazy dumbsaint of the mind' has affected me over the years.

Brian wrote:

> Another interesting thread has been the Zen connection to the Beats

> (critical appraisal's of Dharma Bums; Gary Snyder's work), and through it some

> important observations and challenges concerning the way we perceive "the

> Beats"--as a historical period or a way of being/frame of mind and spirit that

> continues (maybe both).

Yes, I think it is a historical period which is particularly relevant to now,

although I can't quite put my finger on why. I feel it's a lot to do with

disaffection for traditional economic and political (in the widest sense)

processes, and the greater array of opportunities that so many of us are lucky

to have when compared to our parents' generation. Coupland's novel 'Generation

X' sums this up well, although in a much less accomplished way than Kerouac's

work; it frees the spirit in the same way that OTR does.

--

Simon Okotie

North London

UK

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

'Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.'

W B Yeats

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:17:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Burroughs and 3rd mind

I suspect there are alot of us on this list who are writers and who

have taken inspiration from the Kerouac and Ginsberg. Is there anyone

who has read Third Mind by Burroughs and Gyson and perhaps done any of

that kind of writing?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:44:53 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: kerouac movie

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700 from

<beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

On Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700 Thomas DeRosa said:

>latest rumors i've heard from levi asher (literary kicks, web page) is

>that coppola is directing it, not gus van sant. another rumor is that

>dean will be played by sean penn and sal will be brad pitt. all this is

>rumor so you didn't hear it from me. check out lit. kicks beat news for

>more info than i can remember.

>i just subscribed to this list yesterday and i must say i am impressed.

>its so great to find others who are into the beats. five years ago i

>really had to search for their books, now they're all over. should we

>send the gap a thank you note?

No need to worry about spreading rumors. This info has appeared in print in a

number of publications including Time or Newsweek.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:28:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Zahniser <Ed_Zahniser@NPS.GOV>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

Comments: To: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

The Contemporary American Theater Festival in Shepherdstown,

WV (July 5-23) is doing John Lipsky's play "Maggie's Riff"

about Kerouac & his looking back on his first love in

hometown Lowell, Mass. For information call the festival at

304-876-3473.

These are equity actors, and they do a good job with the

play.

Ed

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:55:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Raymond Holloway <urhollow@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

In-Reply-To: <950705145645_25814261@aol.com>

Ray Holloway

770 N. Halsted Suite 420

Chicago, IL 60622

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:57:30 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: eli wilentz obit

I was very pleased to find so much traffic on the list when I returned from vac

ation. I also found that Eli Wilentz, co-owner of the legendary Eighth Street

Bookshop and publisher of the Corinth Press which published Kerouac's Scripture

of the Golden Eternity, among others, had passed away. For anyone interested

there's an obituary in the New York Times on Monday June 26, Section B, page 8.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:33:49 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained

>material originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript. I

>would love to see a release of _that_ manuscript... when TS Eliot's

>Wasteland manuscript was published, I was really drawn in by the notes,

>comments, and corrections supplied by Pound, Eliot, and others.

>Imagine marketing the teletype manuscript as just that, a roll of paper

>(instead of a bound book).

>Does anyone know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it

>housed?

>Jim Stedman

The roll manuscript was on display at the New York Public Library last week. T

here was some talk about publishing a facsimile of it at the NYU conference las

t month. The roll is in fairly bad shape. If it is published, it will probabl

y be expensive.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:20:51 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: OTR Roll Still on Display

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

On Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>Jack told Steve Allen that the manuscript was typed on a teletype roll,

>and that it took three weeks to write. From memory, I think the exchange

>goes something like this:

>Steve: Three weeks??? How long were you on the road?

>Jack: Six years

>Steve: I was once on the road for three weeks and it took six years to

>write about it.

>Jim Stedman

There's always been some confusion as to what type of roll OTR was typed on. S

ometimes, I've wondered if there wasn't a second roll manuscript. The roll at

NYPL looks like a teletype roll to me -- cheap yellow paper.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:31:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and 3rd mind

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

Hi,

I've read The Third Mind four or five times over the years (it's usually

been through academic libraries because it's been out of print for years) and

have in fact done work with my own aleatory texts. I agree with Burroughs

that some conscious manipulation on the part of the author (or assembler) is

necessary to make it worthwhile. The whole point is that there are three

guiding intelligences at work. It's fun to do and one invariably comes up

with stuff that is engaging, hilarious, or creepy. A lot of it is boring too -

that's where the auctorial hand should make itself known. 'rub the words out' i

n all its permutations can get kind of samey, but 'the razor inside. jerk the

handle.' or 'lonesome blue train whistle 1920s etc.' fit the bill (no pun

intended) nicely. i think it's a terrific prose technique and deserves a

place in the palette of any writer.

adam cohen-siegel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:40:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject: Digest option

A number of people have asked about receiving Beat-L as a digest rather

than individual postings. Easily done. Just send the following message to

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu (*not* to beat-l!!):

set beat-l digest

That's all there is to it. Should you want to receive individual postings

again, send mail again to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu with the following message:

set beat-l mail

Fred Bogin

William Gargan

Beat-L owners

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:27:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Diana DiPrima

Has anyone read anything by Diana Diprima? What would you recommend? I've

only read excerpts of Dinners and Nightmares.

JoAnne Ruvoli

Loyola University-Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:50:37 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

That's all I've ever seen by her, and I haunt bookstores

quite a bit.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:56:44 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: OTR Roll Still on Display

I heard it was a roll of shelf paper. I've never seen it.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:00:50 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

Lesley Reece

1521 15th Ave #F

Seattle, WA 98122

Thank you very much.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:02:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Daniel Lundy <dlundy@PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To: <9506118054.AA805495874@SCCCSTU.sccced.ctc.edu>

Penguin is scheduled to reissue MEMOIRS OF A BEATNIK and also a volume of

poetry LOBA but not until August 1996.

Dan Lundy DLUNDY@penguin.com

Academic Marketing & Sales tel: 212-366-2373

PENGUIN USA fax: 212-366-2933

375 Hudson Street http://www.penguin.com/usa/

New York, NY 10014-3657 " 60 PENGUIN YEARS "

On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Lesley Reece wrote:

> That's all I've ever seen by her, and I haunt bookstores

> quite a bit.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:33:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950711170040.9420A-100000@panix.com>

I know that Northwestern Univ. in Evanston has a significant amount of

DiPrima material in their special collections, but I haven't had time to

go over there to look at it. I have a feeling it is primarily small

press editions of her poetry. Is LOBA a compilation of her work or a

reprint?

On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Daniel Lundy wrote:

> Penguin is scheduled to reissue MEMOIRS OF A BEATNIK and also a volume of

> poetry LOBA but not until August 1996.

>

> Dan Lundy DLUNDY@penguin.com

> Academic Marketing & Sales tel: 212-366-2373

> PENGUIN USA fax: 212-366-2933

> 375 Hudson Street http://www.penguin.com/usa/

> New York, NY 10014-3657 " 60 PENGUIN YEARS "

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:46:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:27:04 -0500 from

<jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Di Prima is wonderful. I recommend the Selected Poems for a start. Also Memoi

rs of a Beatnik, a pornographic novel/memoir that includes an orgy with Jack Ke

rouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 11:15:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: otr

so i'm near the end...and it hits me...hard..dean is no longer just

ranting...there's substance...there's life and it is the road. i get it

now... how misled i was in the beginning...i thought, "how empty" i see

now how wrong i was. i'm gone now.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:01:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Norm Carlson <CARLSONN@WMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:46:05 -0400 (EDT)"

<BEAT-L%95071117515100@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Something slightly different that Diane di Prima did: in

1960, she edited a collection entitled VARIOUS FABLES FROM

VARIOUS PLACES, published as a Putnam Capricorn [paperbound]

Original (for $1.15)....

Norm Carlson

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:50:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott <kerouac@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950711170040.9420A-100000@panix.com>

I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've seen Memoirs of a Beatnik at

several bookstores. Not sure who it's published by, though. However,

no, I haven't seen much else on bookstore shelves by DiPrima.

Scott

Yeah. Right.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 21:39:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Taylor <LisaTMP@AOL.COM>

Subject: DALLAS EVENTS

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS:

AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

AN EXHIBIT OF THE COLOPHON MODERNS COLLECTION

FIRST EDITION BOOKS FROM 1950-1975

OPENS SEPT. 20 AT SMU DEGOLYER LIBRARY

For press information:

Lisa Taylor, Taylor-Made Press

(214) 943-1099

Release date: July 14, 1995

DALLAS-TX--The Friends of the SMU Libraries will celebrate its 25th

anniversary with an exhibit of selected works from its Colophon Moderns

Collection Sept. 20-Nov. 17, 1995 at DeGolyer Library, 6404 Hilltop Lane, on

the Southern Methodist University campus. The exhibit will be FREE and open

to the public Monday-Friday 8:30 a.m.-5 p.m. as well as during special

events. Call (214) 768-3225 for more information.

The exhibit of over 60 works, curated by SMU alumna Mary Courtney, includes

first editions by Edward Albee, James Baldwin, Saul Bellow, Richard

Brautigan, Charles Bukowski, William Burroughs, Robert Creeley, James Dickey,

Joan Didion, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg, Joseph Heller, Robert

Kelly, Jack Kerouac, Ken Kesey, Norman Mailer, Larry McMurtry, Flannery

O'Connor, Joyce Carol Oates, Gary Snyder, Kurt Vonnegut, Anne Waldman and

Thomas Wolfe.

Related events include an opening celebration with Decherd Turner speaking on

"My Literary Dilemma: Too Young To Be Lost, Too Old To Be Beat" on Sept. 20,

the screening of Beat generation films on Sept. 28 and Sept. 29, a benefit

dinner at Michele's on Oct. 2, the screening of Robert Frank films every

weekend in Oct., a panel discussion on Oct. 19 commemorating The Southwest

Review's 80th anniversary, a poetry and music concert on Nov. 8, a

presentation of awards for a student book collecting contest on Nov. 17, and

a reading series presented with the Writer's Garret on Oct. 5, 12, and 26.

Highlighting the literary effort of postwar American authors who made

significant contributions to fiction and poetry, the Colophon Moderns

Collection was begun by the Friends of the SMU Libraries to identify and

collect "those books published in 1950 and thereafter which are judged to be

definitive in establishing the contours of the spirit-soul-mind of man."

Later, the emphasis was changed to "collect writers rather than individual

works, particularly in the fields of the novel and drama, poetry, essays and

criticism. " The writers were selected as those "who have most clearly

contributed to the profile of what man was doing during 1950/1975--his

agonies, goals, disappointments, protests, affirmations, etc." The Colophon

Moderns Collection has grown to include 133 authors, 1200 books, 140

broadsides, 58 periodicals, and 190 anthologies and is now a unique resource

for students and scholars.

The Friends of the SMU Libraries/Colophon was founded in 1970 to help the

nine University libraries maintain their excellence. During its 25-year

history, the Friends have funded over $250,000 in grants to support library

materials, services and operations.

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS:

AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

SCHEDULE OF FALL EVENTS

For press information:

Lisa Taylor, Taylor-Made Press

(214) 943-1099

Release date: July 14, 1995

OPENING NIGHT RECEPTION/TALK

Sept. 20 6:30 p.m. DeGolyer Library

6404 Hilltop Lane, SMU Campus. Free, donations accepted.

Opening celebration in honor of charter members and former presidents of the

Friends of SMU Libraries. Decherd Turner will speak on "My Literary Dilemma:

Too Young to be Lost, Too Old to be Beat"

FILMS

Southwest Film and Video Archives Sept. 28 7:30 p.m. Screening Room Third

Floor

Greer Garson Theater Building Meadows School of the Arts

SMU Campus. FREE, donations accepted

FILMS ABOUT THE BEAT

Jack Kerouac's Road : Through photographs, archival film footage, interviews

and skillful reconstructions of events, Jack Kerouac's Road traces the life

of this gifted American writer--with special attention to his many

experiences travelling from one end of the US to the other by car--

experiences which he wrote down and turned into a romantic epic. French with

English subtitles.

William S. Burroughs: Commissioner of the Sewers: A portrait of the author

who created Naked Lunch. With his characteristically dry wit and subtle

humor, Burroughs talks about language and other weapons, about the work as a

virus, about death and dreams, about travel in time and space.

Sept. 29 7:30 p.m. Screening Room Third Floor

Greer Garson Theater Building Meadows School of the Arts

SMU campus. FREE, donations accepted

FILMS ABOUT THE BEAT

Kerouac: An award winning docu-drama about the King of the Beat Generation,

Jack Kerouac.

Oct. 6-7 8 p.m./ Oct. 8 3 p.m The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

Pull My Daisy and Energy and How to Get It

Oct. 13-14 at 8 p.m., Oct. 15 at 3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

This Song for Jack and Hunter

OVER

PAGE TWO

Oct. 20-21 8 p.m., Oct. 22 3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

Conversations in Vermont and Life Dances On

Oct. 27-28 8 p.m., Oct. 29 3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

C'est Vrai

MOMENTS WITH THE MODERNS: A READING SERIES

Presented in conjunction with The Writer's Garret for three Thursdays at 7:30

p.m. at DeGolyer Library, SMU Campus. FREE ADMISSION. Donations accepted.

Oct. 5 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: Joe Stanco interviews Jack

Kerouac (actor Mark Hankla).

Oct. 12 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: Glodean Baker-Gardner

interviews James Baldwin (actor Fred Gardner).

Oct. 26 7:30 p.m. Reel/Real Writers: Allen Ginsberg on video, with Joe Stanco

live. This is an encore performance from The MAC.

EAT TO THE BEAT-DINING

Michelle's Coffee Bar & Cafe, 6617 Snider Plaza, will present a benefit night

on Monday, Oct. 2 5-9:30 p.m. for the Friends of the SMU Libraries. Proceeds

from all dinners that evening will benefit the Friends' organization. Call

691-8164 for reservations.

PANEL DISCUSSION

In celebration of The Southwest Review's 80th Anniversary

'A Literary Overview of the Post War Period"

Thursday, Oct. 19 at 7:30 p.m. FREE.

Hughes-Trigg Student Center Auditorium, SMU campus

The panel will be moderated by Willard Spiegelman, Prof. of Literature at

SMU, with participation by Steven Kellman, Ashbel Smith Professor of

Comparative Literature, UT San Antonio; Jack Myers, Professor of English,

SMU. Additional panelists to be announced.

MUSIC

Meadows New Music Ensemble

Nov. 8 8 p.m.

O'Donnell Lecture Recital Hall SMU Meadows School of the Arts

FREE Improvisational performance of beat poetry and music.

SMU LITERARY FESTIVAL

1995 Student Book Collecting Contest

Awards presentation

Nov. 17 at Hughes Trigg Student Center

All full-time undergraduate and graduate SMU students are eligible to enter

this contest sponsored the Friends of the SMU Libraries. Deadline for

entries is Nov. 1. Display of the winning book collections and a reception

honoring the winners takes place at 6:30 p.m. in DeGolyer Library prior to

the presentation of the awards by the SMU Literary Festival guest author in

the Hughes Trigg Theater. To commemorate the Friends' 25th anniversary, a

special prize will be given to the collection that best establishes the

original Colophon Collection theme.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 01:25:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kerolist@AOL.COM

Subject: No Subject

Please add me to the BEAT-L: Beat Generation List

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:27:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In case anyone is working on an article on Kerouac in Florida, I pass on this n

ote from The Hemingway Newsletter: "The Journal of Florida Literature invites

submissions of creative writing, articles, notes and reviews devoted to Florida

writers and literature about Florida." I guess Kerouac qualifies. Contact R

odger L. Tarr, editor, English Dept., 4240 Illinois State Univ., Normal, IL

61790-4240.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:47:22 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject: Gary Snyder On TV

I've read several posts referring to Gary Snyder and wanted

to let everyone know that, according to my local listings,

he is scheduled to be on a show on PBS called, "The Language

Of Life With Bill Moyers" at 9:00 p.m. tonight (July 14th).

According to the listings, "Gary Snyder uses words to defend

the natural world; Daisy Zamora writes about the pain of war."

The show is one hour long.

Ron Morrow

Toronto, Canada

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 13:30:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: broken bones

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95071415581288@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

There's a song that Al Ginsberg sings in the recent documentary about him

that goes..."broken bones, broken bones...etc."

Does anyone know if a recording of this is available?

It doesn't seem to be on the box set, but maybe it is?

A posting of available recordings would be great.

tanks,

joe

jreifer@wahoo.sjsu.edu

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/ArtH/Tibet/main.html

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 14:39:00 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bruce Greeley <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: broken bones

I haven't heard Ginsberg's boxed set but believe it has different

material than one earlier record he put out with a bunch of 'downtown,

skronking jazzbos and avant-rockers' -- where the recording you're

talking about may have come from -- unfortunately, I don't remember the

title to this ("The Lion is Roaring" maybe?) which is at home.

Other recordings which Ginsberg has been on:

* song with "The Clash" (?title?)

* album where he sings Blake poems accompanying himself on harmonium,

plus guest artists like Don Cherry, Elvin Jones, Peter Orlovsky

if this doesn't prompt others to remember better than me, I'll look in

my music collection this weekend(!)

- Greeley not Creeley

----------

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: broken bones

Date: Friday, July 14, 1995 1:30PM

There's a song that Al Ginsberg sings in the recent documentary about him

that goes..."broken bones, broken bones...etc."

Does anyone know if a recording of this is available?

It doesn't seem to be on the box set, but maybe it is?

A posting of available recordings would be great.

tanks,

joe

jreifer@wahoo.sjsu.edu

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/ArtH/Tibet/main.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 16:25:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Shana Skaletsky <isis@MARS.MCS.COM>

Subject: Re: broken bones

In-Reply-To: <9507161213.AA22666@netmail2.microsoft.com>

On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Bruce Greeley wrote:

> I haven't heard Ginsberg's boxed set but believe it has different

> material than one earlier record he put out with a bunch of 'downtown,

> skronking jazzbos and avant-rockers' -- where the recording you're

> talking about may have come from -- unfortunately, I don't remember the

> title to this ("The Lion is Roaring" maybe?) which is at home.

> Other recordings which Ginsberg has been on:

> * song with "The Clash" (?title?)

>

> if this doesn't prompt others to remember better than me, I'll look in

> my music collection this weekend(!)

>

> - Greeley not Creeley

> ----------

I believe that the song Allen Ginsberg recorded with The Clash is called

"Ghetto Defendant", and can be found on The Clash album "Combat Rock",

recorded @1980. While we're on the topic, I was wondering if anyone knew

anything about a rumour I heard-it involved Allen and the rock band U2

recording something together. can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

-Shana

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 17:46:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Matthew C. Curcio" <curcio@BIOC02.UTHSCSA.EDU>

Subject: LynxOfTheWeek71495

Hey Guys abd Girls,

Thought some of you would like to cruise the web sites of distinction and

this might be one you will like.

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/People/JackKerouac.html

Have Fun

Matt

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:15:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM

Subject: YOU'RE FIRED!

Soft-pedal it all you want by calling it a "reduction in force",

"downsizing", whatever. The fact is, you have heard these words, or will at

some point in the near future unless you take Ownership of your talents and

skills.

The workplace is changing faster than ever before in the history of mankind.

In order to fit in, you, I and everyone who works needs to become an expert

is what we do and find a way to partner with a company so we can both

succeed.

I've been in your shoes and have Coached a lot of people through the process

of identifying where they fit into the future workplace. Last fall, I put my

thoughts into a book entitled, The Unchained Worker.

Here is an overview of The Unchained Worker - Principles of Ownership in the

Workplace, and what people are saying about it.

Ownership inspires and motivates us to take action, to protect and improve

what's ours. We own our talents, experience and capabilities. When we put

them in partnership with a company, the future is ours to make........

What is Ownership? It's a new perspective for all of us to use when dealing

with our jobs. Ownership is a mind-set, an attitude that forces you to look

no further than yourself to secure your future in the workplace. It's the

catalyst for superior individual performance within companies. It provides a

common vocabulary for workers to excel as individuals. Ownership motivates

people to develop their talents and bolster individual performance. It puts

success in their hands..........

Table of Contents.

1. Take control of your future with Ownership

2. Ownership is a vocabulary for success.

3. Ownership is a problem solving tool.

4. Ownership exercises your brain.

5. Adjust your attitude for better performance.

6. Ownership starts with common sense.

7. Ownership is the workplace of the future.

8. Get work done more efficiently with Ownership

9. How Mis-applied responsibility holds you back.

10. Ownership in Action.

11. The principles that will guide your success.

12. Ownership is an Adventure

13. Ownership unleashes your performance.

The intended audience is everyone who works. There are 142 pages with plenty

of graphics and illustrations. It's about a 2 hour read total.

Here's what people are saying about The Unchained Worker: I've always

believed in the individual's desire to succeed. Creating the right

environment is the key. Ownership will work in any organization, Great stuff

- Dennis Erickson, Head Coach Seattle Seahawks. Inspirational! Fantastic!

What a wonderful book. It made me think about things I've never considered.

Thanks. - Staci Clevenger, Assembly line worker.

I want to wish you the very best of luck in your careers.

Jeffrey C. Petkevicius

Cybernetix Inc.

14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

Mead, WA 99021

(800) 517-4268

FAX: (509) 467-9573

Ownership@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:13:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <950717181549_116873402@aol.com> from "OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM" at Jul

17, 95 06:15:52 pm

> Cybernetix Inc.

> 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> Mead, WA 99021

> (800) 517-4268

> FAX: (509) 467-9573

> Ownership@aol.com

I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind. LET'S

GET HIM!!! A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

problems? Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

lame.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

"So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

my narrow axe, not having many communicable

or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:29:37 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <950717181549_116873402@aol.com>

Uh, I thought this was supposed to be stuff about beat authors - not

about the politics of having a job in the world today (although a

correlation would have been nice and made that post - not reposted here

for sake of space - relevant).

joe

things are symbols of themselves - a. ginsberg

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:24:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "KEVIN M. KELLY" <kkelly3@OSF1.GMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <199507180013.RAA20482@netcom21.netcom.com>

I feel compelled to point out that this same individual _flooded_ another

listserv I subscribe to with similar self-promotions of this same

book--complete with quotes from "reviews." I should also point out that

this was at least a human resources list where such a listing might be

appropriate (still shameless self-promotion) and he was quickly hounded

off the list. He even posted a public apology before disappearing - what

a guy!

For this post to appear here suggests he is targeting random irrelevant

lists for maximum exposure. He probably knows his message won't last

long. I think this clown richly deserves any appropriate response his ad

might bring his way. Since he gave us his 800 # I have to assume he wants

to hear from us.

On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Levi Asher wrote:

> > Cybernetix Inc.

> > 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> > Mead, WA 99021

> > (800) 517-4268

> > FAX: (509) 467-9573

> > Ownership@aol.com

>

>

> I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

> dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind. LET'S

> GET HIM!!! A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

>

> Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

> problems? Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

>

> Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

> lame.

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> 150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

> "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

> timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

> my narrow axe, not having many communicable

> or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

>

______________

Regards,

Kevin M. Kelly

Office of Human Resources Voice: 703.993.2600

George Mason University Fax: 703.993.2601

Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 kkelly3@osf1.gmu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:34:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kevin P. Freeman" <kpfst2@POP.PITT.EDU>

Subject: On the Road

Does anyone have an update on the possibility of a feature film of On the Road?

------

kpfst2@pop.pitt.edu

http://www.pitt.edu/~kpfst2

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:53:06 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <199507180134.VAA26732@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu>

Francis Ford Copolla was apparently working on this project - there were

casting difficulties amongst other things and the project has been

delayed. Hold on to yr hats, kids, because one article I read said they

were considering Jim "the mask" carrey for the part of burroughs. Other

names mentioned included yr typical hollywood gen-x stars. Scary stuff!

There are 2 documentaries on Kerouac (at least two) - one has cheesy

reenactments of the beat era, the other doesn't. Guess which one I like

better. Ha ha ha.

Furthur, there is that really great Ginsberg documentary from 93 and

something called "the burroughs movie" (?) - a real good documentary and

someone stole my copy and if anyone knows where to get one (preferably

for cheap, dad...) i would be forever indebted, and that's a long time.

Here's the question that spawned this post:

> Does anyone have an update on the possibility of a feature film of On

the Road?

and don't you know that god is pooh-bear? - j. kerouac

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:07:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road

Speaking of goof-ball Hollywood money grabber headlines, I wouldn't be

surprised if Johnny Depp were in the On the Road movie. After all with,

Francis Ford Copolla directing and the two of them being pals after Copolla

produced the Don Juan DiMarco film. Also Depp is a well-known beat fan. He

paid some $5000 at an auction for an old overcoat belonging to Kerouac and

lists it as his most prized possesion. He also interviewed Ginberg for an

issue of Interview.

What about the cast from Naked Lunch? Ive heard from several people that the

actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did an

excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:26:14 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject: Ownership

What the guy did was definitely not right. Let's flood his 800 number

with crank calls. Write it on every lavatory door, if necessary. But let's

not tie up this list with more comments about it. We deliberately don't

screen postings, to allow the fullest interchange of ideas, and as a

consequence this kind of thing can happen. 'nuff said.

Fred Bogin

Beat-L co-owner

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:22:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <950717181549_116873402@aol.com> from "OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM" at Jul

17, 95 06:15:52 pm

> 1. Take control of your future with Ownership

let go of trying to control, man...

> 2. Ownership is a vocabulary for success.

if domination is your idea of being successful as a human being.

> 3. Ownership is a problem solving tool.

things always have a way of working out if you let it be

> 4. Ownership exercises your brain.

independent thought is the only exercise i practice...trying to control

what other people think is an exercise in futility...self-help books are

only good for the person who wrote it.

> 5. Adjust your attitude for better performance.

in other words, be what other people want you to be.

> 6. Ownership starts with common sense.

What is it with this ownership, possession jazz.. this control freak is

really annoying... sometimes literacy is wasted on the mindless.

forget this...i'm gone.

"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides

the forlorn rags of growing old..." Sal Paradise

peace.

pooh

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:46:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Elsie Pettit <pettit@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <199507180013.RAA20482@netcom21.netcom.com>

On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Levi Asher wrote:

> > Cybernetix Inc.

> > 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> > Mead, WA 99021

> > (800) 517-4268

> > FAX: (509) 467-9573

> > Ownership@aol.com

>

>

> I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

> dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind. LET'S

> GET HIM!!! A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

>

Ditto! I just decided to ignore this bit of crass commercialism.

Beat-L, indeed!

> Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

> problems? Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

>

Ha! My thoughts *exactly* when I read it.

(Have you called him yet, Levi?)

Elsie Pettit

> Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

> lame.

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> 150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

> "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

> timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

> my narrow axe, not having many communicable

> or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:24:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <950718020710_117207075@aol.com>

> What about the cast from Naked Lunch? Ive heard from several people that the

> actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did an

> excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

I thought the portrayals of Jack and Al in "Naked Lunch" were horribly

goofy - not goofy in a sublime beat way - just plain offensive.

Shoulda left it out - at least they didn't try to portray Gysin - sheesh.

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:46:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

I think Jim Carrey would be a good Bull Lee. That is the only potential

casting that I have heard that sounds decent.

Who could play Joan Burroughs character?

She was always raking the lizards off the tree.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:44:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <199507181646.JAA26430@hsc.usc.edu>

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> I think Jim Carrey would be a good Bull Lee. That is the only potential

> casting that I have heard that sounds decent.

>

> Who could play Joan Burroughs character?

>

> She was always raking the lizards off the tree.

>

I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

So it has to be Nicole Kidman then, repeating her triumphant performance in

Batman Forever - shades of Dr Sax (now that would be a movie - who would

play Dr Sax himself??)

Nick W-W

>>

>I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

>front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

>

>Michael Bertsch

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:34:28 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.950718104321.4065C-100000@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu> (message from Michael Bertsch on Tue,

18 Jul 1995 10:44:23 -0700)

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

> On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>> Who could play Joan Burroughs' character?

> I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

> front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

joan burroughs was not ditzy.

do you know anything at all about the burroughses?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:40:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500 from <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500 Nick Weir-Williams said:

>So it has to be Nicole Kidman then, repeating her triumphant performance in

>Batman Forever - shades of Dr Sax (now that would be a movie - who would

>play Dr Sax himself??)

>

>Nick W-W

>

>>>

>>I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

>>front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

>>

>>Michael Bertsch

>>

>>

I'd like to see Jack Nicolson play Sax.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:02:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <199507181322.JAA09505@imageek.york.cuny.edu> from "Kristen

VanRiper" at Jul 18, 95 09:22:28 am

>

> forget this...i'm gone.

>

Me too! Cool response.

> peace.

> pooh

Hey wait a minute -- I thought God was pooh bear.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

"So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

my narrow axe, not having many communicable

or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:11:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: Your message <950718020710_117207075@aol.com> of Tue, 18 Jul 1995

02:07:10 -0400

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:07:10 -0400, Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

wrote;

*Speaking of goof-ball Hollywood money grabber headlines, I wouldn't be

*surprised if Johnny Depp were in the On the Road movie. After all

with,

*Francis Ford Copolla directing and the two of them being pals after

Copolla

*produced the Don Juan DiMarco film. Also Depp is a well-known beat

fan. He

*paid some $5000 at an auction for an old overcoat belonging to Kerouac

and

*lists it as his most prized possesion. He also interviewed Ginberg for

an

*issue of Interview.

*What about the cast from Naked Lunch? Ive heard from several people

that the

*actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did

an

*excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

But they seemed really old to be playing Ginsberg and Kerouac.

Kerouac's character was supposed to young, and the guy playing him in NL

had wrinkles galore.

Kate

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 17:46:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95071815422886@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Nicholson *would* make a great Sax! Thanks, Bill Gargan!

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:15:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <199507182002.NAA18394@netcom.netcom.com> from "Levi Asher" at

Jul 18, 95 01:02:07 pm

> Hey wait a minute -- I thought God was pooh bear.

levi, i was floored when i read that....neal cassidy and i were riding on

the same plane at that moment... i was truly moved by the last quarter of

_on the road_, it was the kerouac that has moved me before. all this talk

on the list about a movie doesn't do it for me. haven't gotten to the

bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_ someone in

this list said jack and neal were portrayed as goofy in _the naked

lunch_...haven't seen it, but it's the reason i'm not into movies...some

overpaid actor with no connection whatsoever will probably ruin it for

me.

take it easy.

pooh

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:09 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: EVANSBRI@ESUVM.BITNET

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:15:22 -0500 from

<pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The Road

or any of Kerouac's books. Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

end up being disappointed.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:37:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: dharma bum biblio

In-Reply-To: <199507191815.OAA02103@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

>... bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_ someone in

yes! do that!

for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

Two other excellent books are:

The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill, 1993.

It is quite interesting to note Kerouac's return from the Buddha lands to

his Catholic heritage in his later works - most notably revelations on

his travels to find his French-Canadian ancestors.

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

>>... bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_ someone in

>>yes! do that!

>>for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

>>picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

>>library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

>>A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

>>Two other excellent books are:

>>The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

>>Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

>>Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill, 1993.

>>It is quite interesting to note Kerouac's return from the Buddha lands to

>>his Catholic heritage in his later works - most notably revelations on

>>his travels to find his French-Canadian ancestors.

>>joe

A while ago I posted a note about how Tom Clark's biography related that Kerouac

complained that the editor removed all the catholic parts from the Dharma Bums.

So maybe he never really left Catholic land for Buddha lands. I think the

Catholicism was always there. Books like Visions of Gerard, Tristessa and

Mexico city Blues I think are good unedited examples of his use of Catholicism

and Buddhism together. Remember how often he uses the term the Lamb or Lamby

Jesus. And he mentions saints a lot.

Other Zen books to look at would be Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. This I would

reccommend over any others. Others are anything by DT Suzuki (whom was visited

by kerouac and others in the fifties) and Philip Kapleau.

And his biographers recount how Kerouac read and studied the Bible throughout

his life. So read that too.

The Zen books I mentioned are just that, Zen. Kerouac wasn't Zen buddhist as

was Snyder. I don't know much about it, but I think he studied Chinese

buddhism more. Maybe someone can talk about that who knows more.

Nowadays it seems people in the US are interestd in tibetan Buddhsim.

And so, when is Kerouac's Life of Buddha coming out. (This was anthologized in

Tricycle). Supposed to be out this year.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:39:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Terence Ritchie <tritchie@SOS.WINGHAM.COM>

Subject: Garver?

William Garver, a.k.a. Bull Gaines, Gains, Gahr-va, and affectionately

known to his friends as "Old Honeyboy Bill" (Desolation Angels).

I 1st heard his voice in Mexico City Blues & again in Desolation Angels

and he is without doubt one of the more vivid characters I've come

across in a literary while. Any more connections & info about this

gentleman would be appreciated greatly or is nothing much more known?

As far as movies & Kerouac, "Joan Rawshanks in the Fog" (Vision of

Cody), one of Jack's more expansive rifts, springs to the mind and if

one of his old coats goes for 5 gees then what's a 1st ed. (signed

even) for The Road go for these days? Must be millions, no?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:52:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT from

<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

On Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT Timothy K. Gallaher said:

>>>for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

>>>picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

>>>library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

>

>>>A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

>

>>>Two other excellent books are:

>

>>>The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

>>>Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

>

>>>Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill, 1993.

>

>Other Zen books to look at would be Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. This I would

> reccommend over any others. Others are anything by DT Suzuki (whom was

>visited

> by kerouac and others in the fifties) and Philip Kapleau.

I would recommend two books: The Empty Mirror and A Glimpse Of Nothingness,

both by Janwillem Van DeWetering. He left his native Holland dissatisfied with

capitalism and the middle class life to enter a Japanese Zen monastery knowing

no Japanese and with only the clothes on his back, which he describes in the

first book. He later spent several years in an American Zen monastery in

Washington state, which he describes in the second book. Both provide real-

istic and readable accounts of zen life and touch on the "zen lunatic" concept

that so fascinated Kerouac (the Japanese monk in charge of the American mon-

astery likes to get drunk on whiskey and watch cowboy movies).

Win

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:27:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.806192908.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

Rep's book is interesting, as is DT Suzuki from a historical context -

unfortuneately these works don't have anything to do with zen practice -

merely philosophy (mostly Rinzai). Kapleau on the other hand incorporates

theory and practice - _the three pillars of zen_ especially.

the aforementioned Godard collection was studied inside and out by

Kerouac who, according to Ginsberg, was really turned on and influenced

by this large work containing japanese zen, chinese (ch'an), tibetan, and

other works.

yes tim - i do think that there were brilliant synchronizations of

catholicism and buddhism in kerouac's work, and the more I study

Buddhism, the more I see it everywhere in his books (as I'm sure you see

the biblical side). 8)

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:29:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95071920073292@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Welp, i guess i started a "recommend your favorite zen book" string of

posts - sheesh. sorry about that.

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:05:10 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950719192859.15225B-100000@wahoo.sjsu.edu>

Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

hamburgers.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:22:09 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU> Wrote:

|

|

| Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

| hamburgers.

I think I hear the sound of one hand clapping.

-josephine-

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:15:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

>Rep's book is interesting, as is DT Suzuki from a historical context -

>unfortuneately these works don't have anything to do with zen practice -

>merely philosophy (mostly Rinzai). Kapleau on the other hand incorporates

>theory and practice - _the three pillars of zen_ especially.

>

>the aforementioned Godard collection was studied inside and out by

>Kerouac who, according to Ginsberg, was really turned on and influenced

>by this large work containing japanese zen, chinese (ch'an), tibetan, and

>other works.

>

>yes tim - i do think that there were brilliant synchronizations of

>catholicism and buddhism in kerouac's work, and the more I study

>Buddhism, the more I see it everywhere in his books (as I'm sure you see

>the biblical side). 8)

>

>joe

I think his catholicism gets short shrifted or downplayed or is considered

a negative influence by many. I don't think Kerouac would appreciate or

agree with these observations though. BTW I'm not Catholic. A few years

ago my friend was looking for a present for his sister for her birthday.

His family is catholic and his sister is pretty religious, Catholic

intellectual. She worked with the Mother Teresa organization for a year,

taught at catholic schools (maybe still does). I reccommended that he give

her Visions of Gerard with some trepidation. But later I found out she

thought it was the best book she'd ever read.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:17:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

>Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

>hamburgers.

>

>Michael Bertsch

Best hamburg in LA is In and Out. Burger King is the best of the fast

fooders. I never had a Whitecastle hamburger.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 01:07:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Garver?

>one of his old coats goes for 5 gees then what's a 1st ed. (signed

>even) for The Road go for these days? Must be millions, no?

Actually you get a 1st of On the Road for about $800. A good place for this

and many other beat rarities is the Beat Book Shop in Boulder, CO. They also

have signed editions of every Bukowski.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:53:59 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: T P Uschanov <uschanov@CC.JOENSUU.FI>

Subject: On the Road movie

In-Reply-To: <01HT31W7GLXE000B3J@FIPORT.BITNET>

EVANSBRI@ESUVM.BITNET wrote:

>I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The Road

>or any of Kerouac's books. Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

>end up being disappointed.

I think the late Richard Brooks could have done a quite pleasant job on

On the Road. What do others here think?

T P Uschanov

uschanov@cc.joensuu.fi

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:55:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95071916325760@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from

"EVANSBRI%ESUVM.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU" at Jul 19, 95 03:28:09 pm

> I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The

Road

> or any of Kerouac's books. Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

> end up being disappointed.

yeah, i agree. the way i see it, if you want to know it, you've got to

experience it for yourself.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:03:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.950719200400.26131A-100000@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> from "Michael Bertsch" at Jul 19,

95 08:05:10 pm

> Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

> hamburgers.

> Michael Bertsch

you know, i've picked up a few zen related books, and i've always found

that a "zen teacher" is an oxymoron..i mean, enlightenment cannot be

taught..it's is up to the individual...isn't there a story about a

student who surpasses his teacher by realizing this? (sort of remember

this in zen flesh zen bones, but it's been a while)

not that it matters.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:29:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

i think it might be too easy to divide kerouac's religious interests

along the lines of buddhism on one side and catholicism on the other side.

in their purest forms, both philosophies or 'roadmaps to life,' are

after the same thing. (let's just leave organized religion outside

this entire discussion) but both catholicism (and i was raised catholic,

so i know of which i speak <g>) and buddhism (and i, too, now study

buddhism) are expedients means to realize the inherent god (buddha/

bodhisattva) nature in man. the bible may employ different terms,

but the life of jesus is the life of a bodhisattva.

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:38:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.950719200400.26131A-100000@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu>

> Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

> hamburgers.

> Michael Bertsch

ahhh...but you should probably put the fly outside instead of swatting

it...and then have a soyburger...(and then read a book on zen for food

for yr brain....and then go sit....).

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:38:44 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

>i think it might be too easy to divide kerouac's religious interests

>along the lines of buddhism on one side and catholicism on the other side.

>in their purest forms, both philosophies or 'roadmaps to life,' are

>after the same thing. (let's just leave organized religion outside

>this entire discussion) but both catholicism (and i was raised catholic,

>so i know of which i speak <g>) and buddhism (and i, too, now study

>buddhism) are expedients means to realize the inherent god (buddha/

>bodhisattva) nature in man. the bible may employ different terms,

>but the life of jesus is the life of a bodhisattva.

>claudia

I think this is well put.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:37:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: beats and the femmes

Hi everyone,

I've just joined the list and it's been an amazing education so far. At the

end of June Kristen asked about how other women feel about Kerouac - here's my

thoughts...

I think Carolyn Cassady's book, Off the Road, really sums it up for me: she

was a woman with a family to support and this meant

(a) she couldn't go out and be one of those wild and/or free-spirited women

that the lads encountered on the road, she had to stay at home and raise the

kids; and

(b) she was married to a reckless and exciting man who did all his reckless

and exciting things away from her and was totally unequipped to provide for a

family in any way. He also often expected her to shoulder the consequences of

his action.

I think so many beat writers were caught between wanting the love and

companionship of a wife and a family and the need to be constantly running

away from it into something new. I don't think it was mysoginistic in any

way. I think a new way of life was opening up to them but they were still

very much in the shackles of the old way (ie, perceptions of the woman's

role). They may have had plenty of sex and plenty of girlfriends but

unltimately the beat generation was a boy's own adventure because they still

hadn't figured out how to include women.

In my arrogant opinion...

-josephine-

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:42:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

Subject: Quote from on the Road

I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

where the quote (I approximate):

"The only ones for me are the mad ones"

comes from.

And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

A page numer or any indication of where to find it in the novel would be greatly

appreciated.

Many thanks.

Julie Hansen

http://www.penguin.com/usa/

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:05:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

In-Reply-To: <199507210235.MAA02398@netmanager.dotc.gov.au> from "Josephine

Thomson" at Jul 21, 95 12:37:17 pm

josephine

> I think so many beat writers were caught between wanting the love and

> companionship of a wife and a family and the need to be constantly running

> away from it into something new. I don't think it was mysoginistic in any

> way. I think a new way of life was opening up to them but they were still

> very much in the shackles of the old way (ie, perceptions of the woman's

> role). They may have had plenty of sex and plenty of girlfriends but

> unltimately the beat generation was a boy's own adventure because they still

> hadn't figured out how to include women.

i guess i'm not a very good feminist, but i have to say, why should

"boys" have to figure out a way to include women? why couldn't women

find their own way? i was somewhat sad when i read about terry...not

because her husband beat her and she had a child to support, but because

she ran to another man to be something... she left her child with her

family (a courageous move on her part) and she left her husband (even

more so), but she didn't have the courage to go out and find herself without

jack to lead the way. maybe this is elitist of me since i've taken

responsibility for my own body and decided to not have children, (there are

enough children that need love, and need a responsible person to help them

survive, why have more) but i don't define myself by the men in my life or the

children that i bear.

i haven't brought up kerouac's women since i finished otr because in my

opinion, kerouac wasn't writing about the women or the sex or the

indulgences... these are all superficial aspects of what the road means

to me now.

kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 06:31:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To: <s00f6690.037@penguin.com> from "Penguin Electronic" at Jul 21,

95 08:42:40 am

>

> I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

> where the quote (I approximate):

> "The only ones for me are the mad ones"

> comes from.

It's in the first couple of chapters (I don't have the book here at work, but

you don't have to go far to find it, first 20 pages or so I'd guess).

> And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

Yes, and particularly PLAYED OUT! If somebody were presenting a project on

Shakespeare and said "To be or not to be, that is the question" -- I would

not be too impressed. Likewise here. Dig deeper please ...

(insert smileys as needed)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

"So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

my narrow axe, not having many communicable

or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:53:36 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: Quote from on the Road

It's in part one, chapter one, like within the first 5 pages of the book...

(and they're the only ones for me too!)

I'd say it IS one of the defining points not only of the book but of

the movement(!)

(one of the few quotes of his in Microsoft's own cd-rom BOOkshelf, by the way!)

- Bruce Greeley

<v-bgree@microsoft.com>

----------

From: Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Quote from on the Road

Date: Friday, July 21, 1995 8:42AM

I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

where the quote (I approximate):

"The only ones for me are the mad ones"

comes from.

And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

A page numer or any indication of where to find it in the novel would

be greatly

appreciated.

Many thanks.

Julie Hansen

http://www.penguin.com/usa/

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:26:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To: <s00f6690.037@penguin.com>

Goodness, Julie. I'd suggest reading OTR again to find that quote--but

then I'm an English teacher, and you'd suspect such a suggestion from one

so warped.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:23:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:26:18 -0700 from

<mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

otr quote--it's on page nine, about a third of the way down in the 25th anni-

versary edition paperback (1980). Just sort of jumped out at me b/c in this

dogeared community college library copy it's highlighted with a big "wow" in

the margin. Who said this generation of college youth had no souls?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:55:01 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

josephine,

just in case you weren't aware of it, there is a book called minor

charactors, by joyce johnson, that deals with the women involved in the

*movement*. i guess she was a friend of kerouac's in the late fifties.

thats really all i can say since i haven't read it yet. if i get around

to it anytime soon i'll tell you more. or if any of you have read it,

you can.

namaste,

beatnik7

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:06:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Quote from on the Road

The quote is toward the beginning, perhaps 1/4 from the start or before.

With a little browsing you should find it.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:34:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire 362 7134 <mmaguire@OSM.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject: Cassady Video (kinda long)

I posted a message here a few weeks ago asking if anyone had watched the

Neal Cassady/Merry Pranksters videos put out by Key-Z productions, and

whether or not they're worth buying (for $70). Unfortunately, noone

replied. :(

Last Friday, I was able to rent one of these (for the Torontonians out

there, it was at Suspect Video on Markham St.). It's entitled _Neal

Cassady_ and claims to be a "series of raps" by Neal. It consists of

silent footage of Neal, including scenes of him driving "Further" (the

bus), with voiceovers of his monologues.

The first scenes, in which Neal is dancing around a room, appear to be the

same as the "Neal in the Backhouse" pictures found on the bottom,

righthand corner of every page in Ken Kesey's _A Further Inquiry_. (You

can thumb the pages and make it look as though Neal is actually moving.)

Anyway, some of the movie monologues may be the same as those transcribed

in _A Further Inquiry_. I can't say for sure 'cause I couldn't follow a

damn thing on this tape. I had to turn it off halfway through. Does that

mean I lose my membership in the Beat fanclub? I've felt both fascination

and repulsion toward Neal Cassady since first encountering him in OTR and

especially after reading Carolyn Cassady's _Off the Road_, but I was

really disturbed by this video. Despite having read countless descriptions

of Neal's manic behaviour, I was unprepared for actually seeing and

hearing it -- he just NEVER stops moving. To be honest, it terrified me.

Perhaps the disembodied voice made it worse. It sounded old, and reminded

me of the crazy people who have that vacant look and just keep on talking

as you search their eyes, trying to connect. Maybe it was because Neal's

was the ONLY voice. If there had been others, I could have witnessed a

connection.

I'm glancing through the Further Inquiry transcripts as I write this, and

on paper, he's the same Neal I'd always imagined and wanted him to be.

Sorry to burden you with my inward struggle, but this is Dean Moriarty --

and I DIDN'T LIKE HIM. On a philosophical level, I understand the appeal

of the "mad ones", but I wondered how the same Jack who spent weeks in

solitude on hillsides could spend weeks in a car with the guy on this

tape.

Can somebody help me with this? Can somebody redefine the legend for me?

_____________________________________________________________________

Mary Maguire

mmaguire@osm.utoronto.ca Toronto, Canada

"... a hum came suddenly into his head, which seemed to him

a Good Hum, such as is Hummed Hopefully to Others."

_____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:56:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cassady Video (kinda long)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9507211940.C22349-0100000@oracle.osm.utoronto.ca>

Gosh, Neal Cassady was the fastestmanalive! Of course he never stops moving.

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:21:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cassady Video (kinda long)

Mary wrote:

>Despite having read countless descriptions

>of Neal's manic behaviour, I was unprepared for actually seeing and

>hearing it -- he just NEVER stops moving. To be honest, it terrified me.

>Perhaps the disembodied voice made it worse. It sounded old, and reminded

>me of the crazy people who have that vacant look and just keep on talking

>as you search their eyes, trying to connect.

This is because this is what he became. Constantly using methamphetamine

and ritalin along with LSD most likely helped this happen. The fellow

Kerouac hung around with was greatly changed by then, just as the drunken

older Kerouac was a reflection of his younger self. The Cassady you saw

here was just a few short years from pre-mature death.

I think i saw these videos you saw around 13 years ago in Berkeley. Then

they were films and some guy from Oregon (Ken Babs ???) brought them down

and showed them. Charged a few dollars. They weren't very good but were

still fun to see.

I think along with the drug,s the dehumanization of him by the hippies,

making him "The Fastest Man Alive" and, as he put it, "Keroassidy" helped

to put him into this detatched state. But mainly it was the drug use that

escalated in the early sixties that he took part in.

Also, and maybe most importantly, read The First Third, his autobiography.

It is telling in that he was actually born a street person as we would call

it now. His father was a wino and he was brought up in the wino community.

It is to his credit that he did as well as he did.

The effect of prison also probably helped to bring about his downward slide.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 01:01:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

Minor Characters is an excellent book. You might also check out How I Became

Hettie Jones, (by Hettie Jones) another fine book about women & the Beats.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 10:26:22 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

Minor Characters is a wonderful book, and I recommend it to anyone with any

interest in Kerouac and Cassidy. Joyce Johnson is a good writer, she was

there, and she provides a degree of objectivity not always found in writings

by/about the Beats

--

John Lynch

"You told me again, you preferred handsome men

But for me you would make an exception"

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:07:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: NYU Conference

The Kerouac Connection is seeking articles, reviews, photos, and interviews

in connection with the NYU Conference on The Writings of Jack Kerouac. There

are no specific length and style restrictions for coverage of this event; if

you have something to say, I will work with you on structuring it for

publication.

The deadline for submissions is August 15, but contact me before that if you

are interested.

I am also interested in audio tapes, transcriptions or original copies of the

talks presented. Presenters may submit their work directly to the magazine

for consideration.

I would also appreciate any brochures, fliers, or posters about the event

that could be sent my way.

Submissions may be sent by email to keroconnec.aol.com or to:

The Kerouac Connection

PO Box 462004

Escondido, CA 92046-2004

Submission on disk (mac preferred) are encouraged.

Mitchell Smith, Editor

The Kerouac Connection

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:05:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac Connection

The Kerouac Connection #27 (Winter 95 Issue) has just been published and is

now available! This issue features papers and reviews from the NYU Beat

Generation Conference, including papers on Kerouac, Corso, and Ginsberg.

There is also a memorial section on Charles Bukowski. The section contains

some Bukowski poetry and drawings, plus memorial pieces by Neeli Cherkovski

(author of the bio "Hank"), Gerald Locklin (longtime Buk friend and

co-editor), and Michael C. Ford as well as poetry by same and others.

The NYU coverage will continue in KC #28 due out in July with more papers as

well as up to the minute news on the Kerouac Estate legal battles, from the

Jan Kerouac Press Conference at the NYU Conference to current developments.

As always, the issue contains news on Kerouac and Beat-related publications,

upcoming events, listings of articles and papers published on Kerouac, and

letters from around the world.

Subscriptions are $20 for 4 issues (foreign orders may send personal checks

in your nation's equivalent of $20--no cash please). Single issues can be

obtained for $5. If you wish to order both issues on the NYU Conference (#27

& 28), you can prepay $9 for both (or indicate that you want a 4 issue

subscription for $19). Checks made payable to The Kerouac Connection. The

magazine address is:

The Kerouac Connection

PO Box 462004

Escondido, CA 92046-2004

I hope to hear from you in the near future, and thank you for your interest.

Mitchell Smith, Editor

The Kerouac Connection

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 16:54:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Connection

Mitchell -

In addition to my regular subscriber's copy, please send us

10 copies of new issue with invoice at dealer's discount.

Thanks.

Jeffrey H. Weinberg

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

tel 508-485-8515

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:01:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

Thanks for all the suggestions on the books to read - scribbling them down &

ringing the bookstore is a great way to waste the first half hour at work on a

Monday morning.

Kristen, thanks for making me think more specifically about what I meant to

say...still thinking.

Josephine

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:57:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Raymond Holloway <urhollow@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

In-Reply-To: <950705145645_25814261@aol.com>

On Wed, 5 Jul 1995, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

> Our mail-order catalogue is filled with the best from Beat writers: Kerouac -

> Ginsberg - Burroughs - Corso - Whalen - McClure, many others. Nice used

> copies, scarce first editions, recordings, videos, posters, T-shirts, etc.

> Thousands of Beat items in stock. Lots of Bukowski too. If you'd like to be

> placed on our mailing list, please send your snail-mail address. It's free.

> Satisfaction guaranteed. Free Search Service too.

> Cisco Harland

> Water Row Books

> PO Box 438

> Sudbury MA 01776

> Tel 508-485-8515

> Fax 508-229-0885

> e-mail waterrow@aol.com

>

Suscribe Raymond Holloway urhollow@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:40:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: NOWHERESVILLE

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: MAILER-DAEMON@emout04.mail.aol.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)

To: DanLauff@aol.com

Date: 95-07-27 00:45:39 EDT

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Description: Session Transcript

550 cunyvm (tcp)... Host unknown

550 beat-l@cunyvm... Host unknown

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Description: Returned Content

Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com

(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA222419851; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:37:31 -0400

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:37:31 -0400

From: DanLauff@aol.com

Return-Path: <DanLauff@aol.com>

Message-Id: <950727003731_123952034@aol.com>

To: beat-l@cunyvm

Subject: Nowheresville

Readers should be aware of NOWHERESVILLE an adult comic book-noir referred to

as Kerouac meets Chandler. It is published by Caliber Press. Try your local

comic dealer or Caliber's 1-800-346-8940 for credit card orders.

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:11:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: MTV

Maybe it's just me,but what is this On The Road business MTV is putting on

the airwaves with these kids traveling cross country in an RV? Maybe I'm

getting old or cynical. This is one of the times I'm thankful that I'm in my

forties.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:04:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: MTV

In-Reply-To: <950728081119_42661723@aol.com> from "Gene Simakowicz" at Jul 28,

95 08:11:20 am

>

> Maybe it's just me,but what is this On The Road business MTV is putting on

> the airwaves with these kids traveling cross country in an RV? Maybe I'm

> getting old or cynical. This is one of the times I'm thankful that I'm in my

> forties.

>

it's a group of people thinking they are doing something original. (sort

of like sex. i'd be surprised if any have read kerouac.) why television?

it's what they relate to. i grew up watching way too much tv. most people my

age have. i'm 24. would i roam around the country in an rv while people tape

my every move and mtv foots the bill? no. i see nothing bold or innovative in

this. just goes to show you, it's not age, it's perception.

*smirk*

kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:36:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: MTV

everything has been done before. except now, it's done in color and

in an air-conditioned RV (fully equipped, i'd bet). back to the

future, but without the sweat!

claudia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:23:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: MTV

Didn't Wolf follow around the Merry Prankster in Kesey's bus, driven

by Neal Cassady, and then write a book about it: the electric

kool-aid acid trip, or something to that effect. So, yes, everything

has been done before. This is definately OTR meets the MTV generation.

lisa

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:39:59 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: GOING DOWN 1

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

whew! i finally edited out all those unwanted "uncontrolled" char-

acters....of course, maybe they will magically reappear, quite beyond

my comprehension or control, when this arrives at its designated desti-

nation-points....this is a story i wrote about 2-&-a-half years ago &

haven't done anything with yet (finally succeeded ? in uploading it),

actually it's one in a series of "chapters" of a projected hypothetical

"novel" a few more of which i may send later....if anyone happens to be

in boston august 4-8 check out the international chinese philosophy

conference at boston university (school of theology, i think), where i'll

be presenting a paper on the i ching and derridean "writing"--perhaps as

part of a panel where comparative issues concerned/intertwisted/inter-

twined with the (real or imaginary) concepts of "reason"/"rhizome"/"tao"

may be being discussed, or at least entertained....

frank w. stevenson, national taiwan normal university, taipei

GOING DOWN

=20

1. the roach =20

in media res in molecular gaps, interstellar interstices of=20

cowhide molecules of his aged leather sandals, whisked from the=20

market in kabul in early august when they felt still fresh and=20

invigorated by the crisp mountain air, his left foot came down on=20

solid concrete, molecules densely packed, on a cracked and lit-

tered sidewalk in taipei in a depressing light rain. he was=20

remembering his trip across afghanistan and india to thailand and =20

the far east, seventeen years earlier as the crow flies as he=20

reckoned it.=20

sad, a little. nostalgia. that's life, mon. "'tis the fate=20

man (and cow? cowhide molecule?) was born for/'tis moi you mourn

for."=20

sam was walking back to his apartment in southern taipei, where

he dwelled with taiwanese wife and daughter. he passed the univer-

sity building on his right, glanced up at his 8th floor english=20

department office (feeling faintly paranoid, on the vertiginous verge=20

or twinge of nausea), then straight and left onto the narrow=20

alley, down one block....he watched the leather sandals at the end =20

of grey pipe-stems that were his pants come down on soft and gutted=20

concrete that seemed to open abysmally in the rain (k'an, water, the=20

abysmal, one yang between two yin's) beneath his feet.

how can i still have these old sandals? he wondered. he=20

hadn't worn them for years, thought the disappeared, then=20

found them the night before purely by chance in an old cardboard=20

box and put them on that morning on a whim....riding on a whim,=20

riding in a boxcar...they were reminding him of temps perdu,=20

perhaps a talisman, magic carpet lifting, lilting....soft voices=20

calling, leather squeaking, molecular mouse squeaks....lightly=20

wafting him =A0ack, and/or lifting back to front, to the=20

"now"....relativity, which train stopped and which=20

moving?....front to back and back to front, deja vu, experience=20

of previous lifetimes....all in the frontal & occipital lobes, he=20

thought, all in the f-ing chemicals...tho that's an effrontery,=20

hah! to sheer transcendental idealists, to la belle metaphysique=20

perhaps and la plupart de la pensee continental, to paradigms,=20

pair o' ducks, or (in a word) paraplui.=20

the rain was picking up so he opened his umbrella and raised=20

it moments before reaching the ta men ko, "main door mouth" of=20

his apt bldg on left. then he was taking (the) unwieldy key out=20

of left pants pocket, after shifting umbrella to right hand in=20

heavy rain now, and fumbling to unlock the clumsy iron door...inside,

the key back to pocket, folding the umbrella...each action seemed

infinitely slow and painful to him, as if caught between the molecular

moments and stuck there in an endless viscous mass, a viscosity of glue,=20

airplane cement or library paste.... his brain cells "pasted in"....

a great dumb lumbering elephant wallowing in mud, in the glutinous

morass, the abyss, mise en abime, he commenced the slow and tiring walk=20

up five steep flights of filthy stairs in a dark, warm and very humid=20

stairwell.=20

...it was....he remembered the feeling now in northern india,=20

autumn sunshine rich and balmy, almost decadent after (arid dried-shit-

smell) catharsis, purification of the persian desert, crossing from=20

pakistan at amritsar and loving the green trees and grass and the cows

everywhere, owning the place, the milk, india springing you, incense=20

curry pulsing with life in varansi in the streets, down by the sacred=20

river ganges debauched bodies burned to ash and then sitting at the

streetside stalls drinking the bang lassies ("shoma bang mikashid?")

with flees "the flying dutchman," who almost set his beard on fire

by accident lighting the hash pipe in katmandu as they rolled howl-

ing on the dusty wooden floor, and walking beside the holy river=20

in bodh gaya with mark.....that was great, the clear blue sky and=20

not too hot in the north of india in when? november of '75? just=20

before heading north for nepal.....the tree, the temples every-

where, and then down by the river where buddha had walked, talk-

ing with mark...

he was lying now in his bathtub in taipei, the water a less=20

dense medium than concrete or leather, trying to cool off before=20

commencing his morning's reading....or perhaps writing....

they were standing by the bodhi tree beneath which buddha sat=20

and meditated for many months on life as pain due to human=20

attachment and supposedly gained enlightenment. mark said,=20

"there's so much suffering, i mean awareness of suffering, under=20

that tree. so much compassion. they say he was doing kind of a

christ trip, you know, taking on himself the suffering of mankind

in order to overcome it....in a way."

sam was looking at the tree. "basically he just saw that it's=20

all passing quickly, right?" the fleeting desire to get high=20

played in the back corners of his mind but he tried to ignore it.=20

"yep, to see clearly, to really know that it's all passing=20

quickly, going down fast, everything going down and we're also=20

going down...."

but sam thought this a natural intuition of all life-

forms (even extra-terrestrial ones?), embedded in their bones,=20

that they were "going down fast," that they were beings in and of=20

time--he had always felt this (poets, artists surely felt it,=20

that's why they wanted to catch the fleeting meaning, freeze it=20

in the form of their work)--not derived from or dependent on any=20

philosophy or religion, though perhaps these images--buddha under=20

his tree--somehow helped people to focus on this awareness, to=20

foreground it....as art also did, in another way?....but just life's

fleetingness, not necessarily it's "going down"?...."or perhaps just

passing, not necessarily down or up...."

mark reflected. "right, but that's the point: the just passing=20

is sad, its painful to us because of our illusion of standing still,

thinking we should be standing still, wanting to stand still and not

change but we can't so our passing has the sense of being a downer....

i mean, that's the point: we change, we die, right? we don't want to

die, become nothing.

sam was thinking (now, in his tub, he was also thinking)=20

there was some sort of paradox--life just passing because there's=20

death but death is an end, a limit, no more passing--but he=20

couldn't quite think it through. they had stared at the tree for=20

a long time; it made an indelible impression. then they'd walked=20

down by the river and mark had started talking about the beauty=20

of the river, the meadow and trees and temples behind (gesturing=20

widely), the beauty of all things. =20

"it's all beautiful but it's all going down....or beautiful=20

because it's going down?" sam took off his sandals and started=20

wading into the shallow, pleasantly cool water. his thinking led=20

back to the same old paradox: beauty in the passing or in the=20

illusory form that would fix it?=20

mark stood just on the shore, pondering it. "i don't know,=20

sam. but...." (looking around him, laughing, gesturing widely with

both arms) "....it's a high, right? it's an UP, man! it's fucking=20

BEAUTIFUL!" He was laughing his mark-laugh.=20

"shit, you're right." this notion reinforced his own paradox-

ical bent and sam thought about it, wading in the shallow river=20

water. "maybe all going down and so, as heraclitus would say,=20

going up at the same time? the way up is the way down? the 'just=20

passing' equals the simultaneous, paradoxical up-and-down?"

mark pondered it, pulling papers.....

he went on, feeling the molecules of water around his feet:=20

"so =A0then this awareness, is it purely contemplative, based on a=20

formal identity of opposites (going down/coming up), or=20

pragmatic, based on the actual experience of personally going=20

down the drain, the great cosmic sink, and coming back up again=20

in an altered form, the form of an enlightened being, a cockroach=20

for example?"=20

mark pondered it, pulling papers from the right side pocket=20

of his white cotton vest and rolling up a "j" faster than anyone=20

else he'd known could do it. then they were smoking one, mark=20

just on the shore in white cotton pants, open vest and sandals,=20

sam in brown cotton pants so thin and light rolled up, red cotton=20

vest open too to the breeze and sun, up to his knees almost in=20

the sacred river, onto which were falling lightly the ashes of=20

their momentary passing. it was great. life was great. hemingway=20

fishing his river, where fishing was also "tragic"...a balance,=20

perhaps....tathgatha, "suchness".....

"or maybe there's no down. maybe passing is just going up,"

mark said, the last word choked off by the toke but he raised the=20

hand not holding the joint to express the point & then they both=20

were holding their breaths, sam as if in a sort of sympathetic=20

resonance, & then bursting out. they were getting high.

sam shrugged his shoulders, arms extended on either side with=20

both palms facing up.

"no sam, sam, wait" passing him the j "it's not that it's =20

all going down and we maintain the illusion of going up--this is=20

what people think, right? this is why they get ripped? (laughing=20

uncontrollably with the burst of exhaled smoke)--but it's not that,=20

sam, no! it's the OTHER WAY AROUND!"....he was starting to get=20

excited in a certain way he had, speaking faster, gesticulating,=20

eyes gleaming from behind the black beard of youth....

sam held it as long as he could, feeling the river between=20

his toes, and then breathed out the smoke, thinking of molecules=20

in air ..."cruising at a certain altitude..." mark laughed and he=20

passed it back..."do you want the roach?" passing it....thinking=20

of smoke molecules in the air, of ezra pound (now, lying in his=20

tub, he thought) ("still stone dogs/caught in metamorphosis/biting

empty air")....(or rilke: "throw the emptiness from your arms/to

feel the expanded air")....or just frozen, in the abysmal water=20

running through your veins like time, in the abysmal sky breathing

through ancient lungs, in mid-flight, tasting the aftertaste,=20

ashes under the tongue.....and then mark came in and they waded=20

silently in small circles of river water glittering in sunlight.

they were definitely stoned.

=20

or had been, once, he thought, lying naked in luke-warm water=20

in his tub in taipei about 16 years later. yes, they had passed=20

the joint and gotten stoned that time and then that had passed.=20

the getting stoned in bodh gaya, like a lot of things before and=20

since, had passed. even the ashes of their passing that floated=20

in the warm currents of the river had passed. you could freeze=20

the moments but you also couldn't freeze them, like ice they=20

would be already melting.=20

=20

he lay in the cooling water in his tub and clenched his=20

fists. he felt like a fucking roach that had climbed up out of=20

the drain into the merely human world of money and concrete=20

walls, into shit city, and then couldn't find its way back=20

down.....or was it the other way around?

=20

=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=

=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:43:40 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: unstrung signifiers (fwd)

Comments: cc: Seth Stevenson <SethSteve.@Brown.Edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:46:04 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Cc: Seth Stevenson <SethStevenson@Brown.Edu>

Subject: unstrung signifiers

BUT I do also like Auerbach's book, especially as it is such a fine

piece of "traditional" (pre-post-modern, pre-post-structuralist) scholarship

and of "close reading" (that art apparently lost to all except perhaps the

Derrideans, oddly enough)....of course, the question of what mimesis or

RE-PRESENTATION finally IS and of whether ART is ultimately MIMESIS of

"WIRKLICHKEIT" or something else (like maybe expression, impression,

mere "pression," language games, unstrung chains of confused "signifiers"

looking for a quick fix, power "discourses"--with automatic transmission

and up to 500 horsepower--sort of swimming around with cleched fists and

copulating with one another, as our foucauldians friends the "cultural

critics" might have it) is an ever-burning issue in literary theory......

Frank W. Stevenson, N.T.N.U., Taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 03:13:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Comments: cc: Seymour360@aol.com

Of course this MTV crap has gotten way out of hand. But they are after all,

just making money off the fact that nothing is original anyhow. Everything,

everyone is cool. Nothing you hold sacred is sacred anymore. Even the most

raw and underground, untainted thing you know, be it an author, artist,

whatever, will soon be expolited and sold as t-shirts for $24.95 in the back

of Rolling Stone. We have become a target market. Even now hidden away in

some backwards mailing list on the internet, people are at this very minute

plotting on ways to sell our dreams in slick, gooey packaging.

Its really sad to see all the great writers and ideas that came out of the

beat generation boiling down to another hollywood flick or ads for kahkis at

the Gap. But perhaps it was always that way. Hollywood did a number with

Subterraneans and look where they published Kerouac's articles in his later

days - Playboy. He was so ashamed that he could only get published in some

magazine he couldnt even show to his mother. Could it be that all of this

was expolited from the beginning and we just have to overlook it. None of

the beat generation authors were superheros to begin with and now they are

all just perpetuating the image. Ginsberg is a crabby old man living on old

ideas and borrowed notions. Him and the rest of the gang that are still

around hold meetings and seminars, making money off their former

associations. Recently they held a Kerouac conference at NYU for what, $350

a person. Doesnt anyone else see this as ironic capitalism. I bet they were

all wearing Jerry Garcia ties as well.

The thing to remember is not how much money they are going to make selling

what has inspired you as different flavors of bubble gum - but the fact that

you were inspired in the first place. No one here would deny that reading

Kerouac or Bukowski or even Hemingway for the first time made you think that

you were the only person in the world - that what you were reading was

especially for you. Well, it is up to the point that you dont get

disappointed every time someone tries to sell your art as used tires. I mean

after all - we do live in America. Explotation is what we do best.

And besides all of this has been done before. This same message written, any

kind of angry replies you may decide to write defend Ginsberg - they have

already been written. Its like critizing Tarentino for ripping off John Woo

films - all we know about film comes from other films, so why not? Were all

just living on third generation images anyhow.

Nick.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:03:45 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

Comments: To: deleuze-guattari@jefferson.village.virginia.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:02:35 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Cc: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Subject: Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

Thank you, Ms. L.B. Bissell, for your wondrous reply-post, full of

brilliance and wit and at a level of sophistication (Oxford....hmmm, that

might explain it....notice typical Yank inferiority complex at work here,

which may help to explain following "ant" metaphor with Lilliputian amp-

litudes) sufficient to keep me luxuriously "feeding" upon it

for days and weeks, at my leisure in the late afternoon sun....(more or

less like a swarm of hungry ants feeding upon the sweetest honied

carcass....)

I realize I'm probably too quick to reject the (seemingly, but perhaps

I've over-simplified them, perhaps that's the point) more blatantly political

and "politically correct" forms of criticism so fashionable now, e.g.

cultural studies, post-colonialism, etc: BUT I would still maintain (as

I did at a recent American Lit conference here where evveryone was saying

we must emphasize plurality and DIFFERENCES among ethnic groups, no

old-fashioned notion of lit as expressing UNIVERSAL human qualities was

to be allowed--because it's always the ones in "power" that define the

univversal, is that it? this seems nonsense to me--that when Hamlet says

"Alas poor Yorick,/I knew him well, Horatio/He was a fellow of infinite

jest"....or when Chguang-tzu says "This is also that," there is something

deeper and more "univversal" at work or play than the levvel of

socio-ethnic-political "differences" or group-identities....)

fws

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:56:04 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: going down 2 (fwd)

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:55:15 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Cc: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Subject: going down 2

journal: summer 1974

may 12:

climbed damavand with ted heal and his brother tom saturday:

great experience! getting cold and windy near the top, quite a

contrast with the (sublunary) temperature down here....the best

part was the tea houses going up and the the look on taxi driv-

ers' faces when they saw 3 ferengi walking out at the bottom....

on the spur of the moment we jumped in a cab and came down to

bist-o-char esfand for dinner at the indian restaurant....

trying to forget elaine: bike, desert, hashish all help a lot

(in reverse order perhaps). jim baines says i've got to "get a

lot stronger" so i've started riding solo into the desert and

practicing my sufi meditation at least once a week--usually

saturday afternoons, sometimes sundays.

baines also said last week that "persians have no souls."

(but he fucks irani chicks in the ass whenever he gets the

chance.) amazing! the scots even bigger bigots than the brits?

may 21:

ok! getting better at this desert meditation thing--sometimes

focus on breath like ted (zen technique supposedly) but it seems

to work better when i take the desert itself as mantra, just try

to fill my mind with the emptiness of the (concept of the) desert

itself. (in fact it's what the sufis did according to mashid, but

he could be bullshitting.) i can just cruise for about an hour

now, try to stretch it out a little longer each time by holding

before me (in my mind's eye, before my mind's nose?) the obvious

reward, which i keep right in my shirt pocket. (but then, you

ask: how can i "empty my mind"? or "desert" my mind? good ques-

tion, mate.) ("dessert" my mind?) (or, au contraire, perhaps

drooling pavlovian dogs are the best little meditators?)

may 28:

moved into ted heal's apt. yesterday. seems it will work out

ok. (a psychologist & a philosopher, after all.) teheran clear

and dry, not too hot at denver altitude, crisp air invigorating,

snow-capped damavand at 18,000 ft. shining as ever out window to

the northeast...(actually my old window view was slightly better

but ted has a larger, and better placed, balcony.)....feeling

good after first year of teaching....crazy ted likes to talk

about "learned helplessness-ness" with the students at school,

and most nights he stays in his room alone listening to old

beatles and stones records...."hey jude...."

june 3:

shit man, got too ripped after my "deserted mind" session

yesterday, a little too heavy on the "dessert": walked (stag-

gered?) a few steps too far away (gazing at HORIZON, part of my

technique) from bike and spent 2 hours walking in circles till i

found it, allah be praised....(little prairie mounds just high

enough).... that was cool though, i sort of enjoyed it--i somehow

knew i'd find my bike as the alternative was too unthinkable....

just high enough!

june 10:

hah! mashid calls jim baines a "true gold-digger"--irani term

for ass-fucker.

why have i never been interested in anal sex with women? (of

course, not with men, but why not even with women?) too "dirty,"

right? anyway, what's the pt. given the joyous allure of alterna-

tive orifices?....(FEMALE alternative orifices, maybe that's

also the pt.) BUT they say the ass "feels just the same" as the cunt

etc etc....i dunno, i think it's the shit association ("guilty by as-

sociation"), just too dirty....(well, sigmund?) (of course, in the

middle east the pt. is you never fuck a woman any other way, except

your wife or a whore, as jim is quick to pt. out in explanation.)

but anyway i seem not to care about sex these days--even

jim's lucid tales of conquest no longer leave those stinging

pangs of envy (jealousy?) or inadequacy in their wake, the tell-

tale sign if there is one--too burned out i guess, brain cells

fried, mind/spirit/SOUL (?) just too burnt, or too desserted....

....just high enough!

june 14

fucking bike got ripped off thursday night....(no insurance

of course, never any insurance in this life)....that'll learn me

to get stoned BEFORE early evening class so that i forget to

chain and lock it to iron gate outside, per usual....(what was i

discussing in that class? comparative world religions, hah!

specifically, on thursday, confucianism....a "religion"?)

anyway this means i can't follow big charlie pruitt on his

honda 350 to kabul when school ends in 2 weeks....wld have been

cool....but i'll just take the bus or train and meet him there

anyway!

not thinking too much of elaine any more...that's a

relief....smoking bang helps or perhaps in a sense "completes the

circle" since that was a key factor leading to separation in

first place....(?)....(food for thought there, mah freynd....)

june 27

fun time: final exams. the students are great. i see less and

less of ted: he's either in the fucking "fish bar" down near the

bazaar drinking beer with jim (and sometimes mashid, and me)--but

ted chases no women nor men neither, methinks--or holed up in his

room reading psych books and listening to records. "hey jude,

don't be afraid...."

july 3:

classes ended friday. i was getting ready to blast out on a

"greyhound" for the afghan border (charlie leaves on his bike

next week) when, allah be praised, i learned yesterday that a

"hippy bus" from london with a big DELHI sign on top--crossed

channel on a ferry--has serendipitously stopped in our wholesome

city. young freaks (all european) staying at cheap hotels down-

twn right in my neighborhood so easy to meet them and get the

scoop. they have a few seats, the driver gives me a good price if

i hop off in kabul, as is my plan...should be

interesting....there are some nice chicks, mainly english, german

and/or swiss (not many french apparently, too bad) but they seem

pretty spaced out....one german girl (whipped out the old

tongue on her) said she was living in a bathroom of the shah

hotel so i dunno....

july 6:

hippy bus leaves tomorrow.....or.....one day soon? persian time

is rubber time, as they say. "hey folks, it's rubber time!" (why

have they stayed already a week in teheran? repairing bus or some such?

maybe, but whenever i ask anyone including the driver, they're always

too far gone to give a coherent answer. well, ok, a few brits were

talking about seeing the mosques....maybe someone made a quick trip

down to isfahan....)

so when the fuck will i buy a rug to send back to the

states? (well, i'll be back here for another year at least but

mashid encourages me to buy one soon: "sooner is better." maybe

prices going up i dunno.) every time i go into the bazaar i get

lured by those fucking bozos with their hash pipes and little

glasses of tea and virtually "never get back out again" (as ted

heal puts it) (interesting paradox here, since the problem is i

DON'T buy the rug, but i haven't quite fathomed it yet)....(oh,

is see, that's the pt., my life = the ongoing "bazaar" in that

sense.) hmmm. (those guys just want to practice their english, i

think. "shoma anglisi baladid?" or maybe think i can turn them on

to some foreign chicks. especially yesterday since i was there

with frieda of the hippy bus.)

july 10

all right! blasted out of dog city on the hippy bus this

morning, mostly sat in seat alone staring at the prairie, trying

to meditate sufi style (sucking stomach up own asshole) and/or

decode overheard german conversations, but i enjoyed it....sat

and talked with mad frieda for about an hour but she's steadily

toking up like many on bus, driver just breathing it all in!

about halfway to mashad in the middle of fucking nowhere the bus

stopped and the driver said he needed pure water for radiator

(seems hotter to them than to me, that's for sure), so they had

me walking thru this tiny village, mainly the chelo-kebab shops,

asking "Shoma ab darid?" but all i could get was very ordinary

bottled water. they're already carrying lots of this stuff so i

couldn't imagine why the driver thought what i'd found would be

better for his radiator.....(in fact the irani kid had probably

pissed in it for good measure)....but he said the "native water

would be better for the machine." conclusion: desert of eastern

iran (after coming through turkey and western iran), with its

mystical visions, has truly started to fry his brain. (maybe all

their brains.) but: the bus is running.

got into mashad just at sunset, beautiful, chelo kebab dinner

next to cheap hotel where we sleep tonight....may have a shot at

frieda....walking streets after dinner a young irani man, learn-

ing i was the one american in the group, said in perfect english,

with a delightfully world-weary, sardonic tone: "You dig a hole

anywhere in the world and an american will crawl out." maybe i

was supposed to be insulted but i just laughed my ass off. it's

true, of course.

trying not to smoke too much....what better way to "get in

shape" for afghanistan?!?

july 12

jesus christ, yesterday morning paul the driver drove us out

to some "campground" basically in the desert just east of mashad and

about 5 kilimeters west of the afghan border. looks like this time he

really IS fixing something in the engine, but when i asked him he just

said he was "cooling it off for a while." (?!) so these guys mostly

all hung around the bus, napping inside or outside on their blankets

on the ground--some under the bus to get out of the sun. i took a local

bus into town with two brits and a swede and we spent all afternoon in

tea-shops. (not much else to do, of course.) then we came back to the

bus around 6 and they all started asking us to show them how to take the

bus into town to a restaurant for dinner, so we did that. (these guys

are burnt, man.) then all came back to the bus around nine and we all

slept in or on our sleeping bags on the ground...luckily almost never

rains in the desert, and mosquitoes are not bad....(they told me before

this is how they slept most nights since leaving england but only now

did this fact fully sink in.) in a word: i couldn't sleep for shit and

feel like shit this morning. therefore:

i'm blasting, man! why wait for kabul to jump off the hippy bus?

i can just hop a local bus that goes right to the afghan border--a young

guy was just telling me--and crosses it and then on the herat!

i can be in herat tonight! (who knows how long paul and company will

be wasting away in their little "campground" here?!) i'm blasting, man!

i'm psyched!

frank stevenson, taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:09:24 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: coned pome

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

coned

god

blown

open as

leaves to

twigs flown

innermown ear

sounding oceans

shellfish sparked

blind moles of hide

hanging halfcocked in

boneshot marrow skin so

skyspaced as dung bee tao

tao too buzz in cored nerve

arc of brain rhizomic burning

branched cone flung treebarking

hair of wind wall wailing saw

skullsong floating sea sung

tao bee dung as skyspaced

so skin marrow boneshot

in halfcocked hanging

hide of moles blind

sparked shellfish

oceans sounding

ear innermown

flown twigs

to leaves

as open

blown

dog

frank stevenson

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:23:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Nick>Its like critizing Tarentino for ripping off John Woo

films - all we know about film comes from other films, so why not?

I think Tarantino was criticized most heavily for ripping off Ringo Lam's

City on Fire for the film Resevoir Dogs.

Anyhow Nick, I liked your mini-essay on on exploitation. I don't really

agree per se, (except with the Ginsberg comments). But with this in mind

my comments are, so what?

What you are saying is true. But so what. Everyone needs to make money.

kerouac's books were published by exploitation publishers. Just like

Burrough's Junky.

Now I could agree with you when it comes to hypocrisy. I don't know if

that comes into play here, but it is unrelated to the question of idealism

except that the staunchest idealists put themselves in the best positions

to become first rate hypocrits.

And since the topic here is MTV bus rides or something (I don't get cable)

wasn't there a show in the fifties or early sixties about two guys driving

around in a car (Route 66 maybe?). Kerouac actually sued back then for

them stealing his On the Road premise.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:23:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

My gosh this is a cynical bunch. Their TV program looks more interesting

than most of the mindslop on TV. Why pre-judge them? Why pre-judge anybody?

In fact, except for violence, why judge anybody at all.

I think the overriding message of Kerouac's writings is a sort of childlike

optimism and wonder with the world. I'd love to see more of that on this

list.

my 2 cents.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 06:52:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jacob Miller <CrowCntr@AOL.COM>

Subject: Quality Poetry

Hello All!!!

I'm looking for poetry submissions, book reviews (of new and old poetry...

or anything...) and music reviews for a new poetry newsletter/ magazine.

I've read many other magazines, and decided it was time to publish a

*quality* poetry zine. I am just starting here, so please bear with me...

Guidelines:

Just about anything goes...

POETRY: (I need LOTS of this....)

Any subject (within reason and good taste)

Length: No more than , oh about 75-100 lines? (negotiable)

Previously unpublished (I don't want to get into any copywrite wars...)

BOOK REVIEWS:

I need reviews on new poet's books, established poet's books, or any

good books you've read and think others would like to read ( probably two or

three reviews per issue, depends on length)

Length: please no more than 300-500 words (also negotiable)

MUSIC:

I need reviews and/or opinions on newly released and classic albumns.

Reviews should be analyzing the poetic aspects of the music and lyrics.

Length: 300-500 words (also negotiable)

SHORT STORY: (sometimes...)

If I have room, I will occasionally publish a short story...

This can be on any subject, fiction, or non, and no longer that 1500

words.

ADVERTISING:

If you have a chapbook, or contest, or whatever, you can put an ad (2

1/2" x 3 1/2") in this zine for $25 for one issue.

PAYMENT:

Payment for a published writer in this magazine, will be two free

copies of the issue in which s/he's featured. Extra copies may be purchased

for two $.32 stamps each.

PRICE!!!!!!!:

This is a free publication!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am planning a sample to be published in November of this year as the

Premier issue! If you would like to recieve a copy please send two $.32

stamps to:

MR JONES:

c/o Jacob Miller

8L Lakeside Drive

Ledyard, CT 06339

Thank you all for taking the time to read this...

-> Please E-Mail *All* submissions to me at CrowCntr@aol.com

-> Please Label your submission - MJ SUB: "Title or subject of submission

here..." - in the subject line of the mail.

-> Remeber to include your real name, and real address with your

submission.

Jacob Miller - CrowCntr@aol.com

P.S. - I will try to include a brief crtique with all submissions, whether

accepted or not. :)

---------------------------

"Figure it! The pining peever! To a Mookse."

-James Joyce - "Finnegan's Wake"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:32:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: coned pome

Frank StevensonWrote:

>a coned pome

Great poem, Frank. Excellent courage to post it; I never would, way too

chicken.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:36:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM> Wrote:

|

|

| My gosh this is a cynical bunch. Their TV program looks more interesting

| than most of the mindslop on TV. Why pre-judge them? Why pre-judge

anybody?

| In fact, except for violence, why judge anybody at all.

Thanks for this, Howard. On the strength of all the other mails, I was going

to go home and burn all the photos my husband and I took when we drove around

Australia. We knew we weren't the first adventurers but we had a fabulous

time nonetheless, met some interesting and unusual people and it felt fresh

and new to us; not at all like it had all been done before.

my 5 cents worth (2 cent coins aren't in circulation here no more)

-Josephine

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:18:46 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: chinese phil conference

Comments: cc: cybermind@jefferson.village.virginia.edu

"1 more time," the man muttered to himself, trying to send out the

note in the tiny bottle onto the chaotic tossing grey sea: it's my last

chance as fly to boston tomorrow (gain a day midflight, pretty weird), am

to present a paper on "i ching" and derridean "writing" (with perhaps

some mention also of deleuze's (& jd's) "fold"/spinozist

expression/implic/explication/[un]"folding" of world)

at an int'l conference of chinese philsophy at B.U. in Boston Aug. 4-8

(though don't know which day yet): anyway, if anyone happens to be in

boston then, welcome to come to this conference--sponsored by Robert

Neville, Dean of School of Theology--on any of these days and see what's

happening......

although I'm notoriously metaphysical and virtually "APOLITICAL"

(or maintain the illusion of being so) if this (illusion) is still

possible in our hyper-political age, many of these scholars of chinese

phil are very political indeed, and quite a few will be from PRC i think

(i may need to help "guide" some of them around town, should be fun) and

these cats tend to be VERRRRY political and see phil as a totally and

manifestly political instrument, as 'twere (which strangely i never could)

....will be much awareness of Harry Wu, PRC/ROC (Taiwan)/USA relations,

etc etc....(sans doute)....Hope to maybe meet a few of you invisible

creatures there....

Frank W. Stevenson

National Taiwan Normal University, Taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:41:18 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: coned pome

In-Reply-To: <199507310029.KAA17836@netmanager.dotc.gov.au>

tanks mon! (thank you, ms. thomson.) i wrote that about 2 yrs ago i

think...wldn't have thought it needed "courage" to post such a poem (just

vanity perhaps, i dunno)--i mean, not too shocking or "obscene" or

anthing like that....just kind of free-form expression, maybe sligthly

schizophrenic around the gills.....("why, i've posted such shocking

things you wouldn't believe! why, i'll post ANYTHING man!

i'll...i'll....i'lllll") fws, taipei (but in boston tomorrow!)

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Josephine Thomson wrote:

> Frank StevensonWrote:

>

> >a coned pome

>

> Great poem, Frank. Excellent courage to post it; I never would, way too

> chicken.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:50:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950729190309.2018G-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Jul 29, 95 07:03:45 pm

> Thank you, Ms. L.B. Bissell, for your wondrous reply-post, full of

> brilliance and wit and at a level of sophistication (Oxford....hmmm, that

> might explain it....notice typical Yank inferiority complex at work here,

> which may help to explain following "ant" metaphor with Lilliputian amp-

> litudes) sufficient to keep me luxuriously "feeding" upon it

> for days and weeks, at my leisure in the late afternoon sun....(more or

> less like a swarm of hungry ants feeding upon the sweetest honied

> carcass....)

> I realize I'm probably too quick to reject the (seemingly, but perhaps

> I've over-simplified them, perhaps that's the point) more blatantly political

> and "politically correct" forms of criticism so fashionable now, e.g.

> cultural studies, post-colonialism, etc: BUT I would still maintain (as

> I did at a recent American Lit conference here where evveryone was saying

> we must emphasize plurality and DIFFERENCES among ethnic groups, no

> old-fashioned notion of lit as expressing UNIVERSAL human qualities was

> to be allowed--because it's always the ones in "power" that define the

> univversal, is that it? this seems nonsense to me--that when Hamlet says

> "Alas poor Yorick,/I knew him well, Horatio/He was a fellow of infinite

> jest"....or when Chguang-tzu says "This is also that," there is something

> deeper and more "univversal" at work or play than the levvel of

> socio-ethnic-political "differences" or group-identities....)

>

> fws

i am ignorant of the response you are referring to, but as for your view

about the "politically correct'ness" being thrown about here, i must

agree. it's a reality that takes away from unification. the americans

who emphasize the importance of pc'ness are relentless in the pursuit of

breaking groups into smaller subunits until a connection ceases to exist.

i recently heard a speaker in biology give a talk about vitamin d

production in relation to melanin production and uv exposure. her

science spoke of the only reason physical differences exist...it was the

best talk i've heard in a long time. i got to thinking that it's the

physical differences that contribute to the fear of the societal

differences...it seems to be a neverending ride that leads to

intolerance. her talk wasn't so focused that it narrowed the mind of the

listener as many science people do. she brought us all together.

i have enjoyed your submissions. i, too, have experienced the meditative

effect of nature. (i find that focusing on my breath leads me to the voices

that flow in my mind..not peaceful at all) and i look forward to your

talk about the i ching. i've spoken with pagans and got interested in the

connection with runes and the i ching. seems like if we go back further

and further...we all follow a similar path. slight modifications turn

into drastic differences only when we perceive them as such.

i'm not a literary scholar. in fact, you intimidate me, fws. but the

tao brings me balance and as long as i see this, there is peace.

k

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:21:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950729185553.2018C-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Jul 29, 95 06:56:04 pm

fws

reading your journal entries reminded me of a discussion i had with a

friend the other day. he's completely devoted to proust and when i asked

him if that's why he connected with neal cassidy, he told me that he

never read _on the road_, but that he knew cassidy was (among other things)

a habitual masturbator. i got to thinking about why... he was seeking

the pleasure and the experience, but he probably didn't know of another

way to experience intense physical pleasure other than climax. so he did

it again and again, leaving him empty until the next time. you mention the

"dirtiness" of anal sex...yet tantric sex concentrates in this area for a

man... (i wonder if cassidy had experienced this, or if his pleasure was

always stop and go..never reaching a higher level of sensation)

i guess this is all related to feelings i have about false starts in my

life...traveling along a path, not feeling doubt or regret, not feeling

much of anything. never questioning, just following, then the spark...my

mind opens and i see things are not as they seemed. i am frightened and

doubtful...all my life i've thought that if i made decisions that were true to

myself, i wouldn't regret them, i mean, regret is useless, it can't change

things. but here i am...no longer in pursuit of a goal i thought i believed in.

how could i have let myself go so far without questioning? like many in

science, i put on blinders...i won't get into it...it's boring.

i said that you intimidate me...intimidation is the wrong word...(i do not

choose words well)...it's your life and your choices that overwhelm me...at

least from what you have written to this group. the feeling that i am

starting over in my pursuits scares me...realizing there is so little i know

compared to what is out there... and yet i've never been more alive. maybe

i've just transferred to a different route.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:04:31 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <199507311721.NAA08601@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

(based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

"political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

(well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:12:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950801025635.28856E-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Aug 1, 95 03:04:31 am

>

> Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

> (based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

> east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

> and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

> this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

> qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

> newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

i read something and feel as if that person is here with me right

now...i'm sure many others do. i know what you mean about the

therapy..it's a catharsis for me...only difference is that i do care too

much what other people think. have to get over this.

> or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

> i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

> thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

> clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

> that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

> one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

> etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

> oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

> people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

> "political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

i think the key word is obsession..about sexuality, about drugs, about

government/politics and i think it comes from understanding only certain

aspects and not the overall picture. this is only my guess, but peyote

and coca leaves can bring about heightened awareness yet when their

abused (or altered chemically to be more concentrated) you lose that...it

goes downhill. a big problem i see is intolerance due to lack of

understanding about sexuality...politicians and clergy define sexual

boundaries and sexuality isn't black and white. one thing i've always

believed in is the constitution...freedom...but too many want

control...

too many sides pulling..something's gonna give.

> (well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

> think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

> i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

> come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

don't know of a time that i would like to be frozen in...i think i've

been stuck for too long in the nothingness i felt in the 80's.

kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:33:57 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>>

>> Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

>> (based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

>> east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

>> and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

>> this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

>> qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

>> newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

>

>i read something and feel as if that person is here with me right

>now...i'm sure many others do. i know what you mean about the

>therapy..it's a catharsis for me...only difference is that i do care too

>much what other people think. have to get over this.

>

>> or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

>> i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

>> thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

>> clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

>> that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

>> one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

>> etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

>> oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

>> people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

>> "political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

>

>i think the key word is obsession..about sexuality, about drugs, about

>government/politics and i think it comes from understanding only certain

>aspects and not the overall picture. this is only my guess, but peyote

>and coca leaves can bring about heightened awareness yet when their

>abused (or altered chemically to be more concentrated) you lose that...it

>goes downhill. a big problem i see is intolerance due to lack of

>understanding about sexuality...politicians and clergy define sexual

>boundaries and sexuality isn't black and white. one thing i've always

>believed in is the constitution...freedom...but too many want

>control...

>too many sides pulling..something's gonna give.

>

>> (well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

>> think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

>> i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

>> come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

>

>don't know of a time that i would like to be frozen in...i think i've

>been stuck for too long in the nothingness i felt in the 80's.

>kristen

>

>please stop jamming my mailbox with this personal shit, keep on the beat

topic or use e-mail.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:31:45 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

>(based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

>east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

>and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

>this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

>qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

>newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

>or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

>i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

>thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

>clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

>that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

>one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

>etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

>oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

>people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

>"political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

>(well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

>think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

>i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

>come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

>

>this has nothing to do with the topic..............find another forum or,

better

yet, confine your correspondence to e-mail.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:29:54 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>fws

>

>reading your journal entries reminded me of a discussion i had with a

>friend the other day. he's completely devoted to proust and when i asked

>him if that's why he connected with neal cassidy, he told me that he

>never read _on the road_, but that he knew cassidy was (among other things)

>a habitual masturbator. i got to thinking about why... he was seeking

>the pleasure and the experience, but he probably didn't know of another

>way to experience intense physical pleasure other than climax. so he did

>it again and again, leaving him empty until the next time. you mention the

>"dirtiness" of anal sex...yet tantric sex concentrates in this area for a

>man... (i wonder if cassidy had experienced this, or if his pleasure was

>always stop and go..never reaching a higher level of sensation)

>

>i guess this is all related to feelings i have about false starts in my

>life...traveling along a path, not feeling doubt or regret, not feeling

>much of anything. never questioning, just following, then the spark...my

>mind opens and i see things are not as they seemed. i am frightened and

>doubtful...all my life i've thought that if i made decisions that were true to

>myself, i wouldn't regret them, i mean, regret is useless, it can't change

>things. but here i am...no longer in pursuit of a goal i thought i

believed in.

>how could i have let myself go so far without questioning? like many in

>science, i put on blinders...i won't get into it...it's boring.

>

>i said that you intimidate me...intimidation is the wrong word...(i do not

>choose words well)...it's your life and your choices that overwhelm me...at

>least from what you have written to this group. the feeling that i am

>starting over in my pursuits scares me...realizing there is so little i know

>compared to what is out there... and yet i've never been more alive. maybe

>i've just transferred to a different route.

>

>what the hell does this have to do with beat discussion?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:46:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: VJ <the.Literary.Denim@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Frank Stevenson

Get off the channel, Frank. Yr off topic, yr topic is noise, yr writing is

mediocre, and yr a nuisance.

Everyone else . . . sorry for the flame, but this guy's ego has poured into

this channel for more than I can be quiet about, and this is the only way I

can get at him.

Frank: go away!

\\|//

(o o)

--------------oOO--( )--OOo----------------------

vj@primenet.com | City Pigeons

Tempe, AZ | Ate Popcorn on Mkt St.

| But Now They're Dead

--------------ooooO---Ooooo----------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:54:04 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Frank Stevenson

In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:46:21 -0700

At least Frank is posting something. Taking it to e-mail becomes a valid

thing to do at a certain point, I agree, but I don not think frank has to go

away.

I would rather get Frank's stuff than these whiner mssges from Hawaii and

Tempe.

Tim

(To hear Jack speak:

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/!gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

)

ugh that should be ~gallaher (not !gallaher) aye yo

ok

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:02:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Frank & Kirsten are okay by me

To VJ & Ray & anyone else:

I quite enjoyed Kirsten & Frank's contributions. And what they are saying is

relevant to this newsgroup: the search for how to live. I think it is

impossible to discuss the beats. or any other literature which really moves

you, without coming back to the personal. Besides, we're all meant to be

friends of a sort and what's wrong with tolerating someone branching off, just

a little, from the topic?

Josephine

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:06:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: going down to get a dictionary

Sorry: Kristen, not Kirsten.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:25:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Frank & Kirsten are okay by me

Who is Frank?

It is not so much the subject, but when I logged on today, I

thought some how the freeway signs on the information highway ahd

become reversed and I got on the wrong path. I don't quite understand

how those messages tie in to a discussion of Beat writers. Yes,

sometimes its quite on this newsgroup, but personally I'm not in favor

of random postings that are not related to the Beats. I'm probably not

alone in having @ 50 msgs. a day to get through, and prefer to at least

know what the heck is going on when I pull up a message. This is definately

NOT a FLAME of Frank, Kirsten or anyone else. Just MHO.

Lisa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:02:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John A. Urciuoli" <JUrciuoli@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

I read your comment and fully agreed. You may want to read a fine book

titled Minor Characters. This book delves into the exact territory you are

discussing. It is written by Joyce Johnson. She was Kerouacs girlfriend

during the two years surrounding the publication of On The Road. Very

enlightening. Check it out.

John-

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:48:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

Interesting comments and observations...really.

But are you guys in the right room? Anyway, just got into Chinaski's

HOLLYWOOD...If you're a Bukowski fan, you'll enjoy it. It's about the making

of the BARFLY film.

Maintain,

Gene

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:55:15 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Cc: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Subject: going down 2

journal: summer 1974

may 12:

climbed damavand with ted heal and his brother tom saturday:

great experience! getting cold and windy near the top, quite a

contrast with the (sublunary) temperature down here....the best

part was the tea houses going up and the the look on taxi driv-

ers' faces when they saw 3 ferengi walking out at the bottom....

on the spur of the moment we jumped in a cab and came down to

bist-o-char esfand for dinner at the indian restaurant....

trying to forget elaine: bike, desert, hashish all help a lot

(in reverse order perhaps). jim baines says i've got to "get a

lot stronger" so i've started riding solo into the desert and

practicing my sufi meditation at least once a week--usually

saturday afternoons, sometimes sundays.

baines also said last week that "persians have no souls."

(but he fucks irani chicks in the ass whenever he gets the

chance.) amazing! the scots even bigger bigots than the brits?

may 21:

ok! getting better at this desert meditation thing--sometimes

focus on breath like ted (zen technique supposedly) but it seems

to work better when i take the desert itself as mantra, just try

to fill my mind with the emptiness of the (concept of the) desert

itself. (in fact it's what the sufis did according to mashid, but

he could be bullshitting.) i can just cruise for about an hour

now, try to stretch it out a little longer each time by holding

before me (in my mind's eye, before my mind's nose?) the obvious

reward, which i keep right in my shirt pocket. (but then, you

ask: how can i "empty my mind"? or "desert" my mind? good ques-

tion, mate.) ("dessert" my mind?) (or, au contraire, perhaps

drooling pavlovian dogs are the best little meditators?)

may 28:

moved into ted heal's apt. yesterday. seems it will work out

ok. (a psychologist & a philosopher, after all.) teheran clear

and dry, not too hot at denver altitude, crisp air invigorating,

snow-capped damavand at 18,000 ft. shining as ever out window to

the northeast...(actually my old window view was slightly better

but ted has a larger, and better placed, balcony.)....feeling

good after first year of teaching....crazy ted likes to talk

about "learned helplessness-ness" with the students at school,

and most nights he stays in his room alone listening to old

beatles and stones records...."hey jude...."

june 3:

shit man, got too ripped after my "deserted mind" session

yesterday, a little too heavy on the "dessert": walked (stag-

gered?) a few steps too far away (gazing at HORIZON, part of my

technique) from bike and spent 2 hours walking in circles till i

found it, allah be praised....(little prairie mounds just high

enough).... that was cool though, i sort of enjoyed it--i somehow

knew i'd find my bike as the alternative was too unthinkable....

just high enough!

june 10:

hah! mashid calls jim baines a "true gold-digger"--irani term

for ass-fucker.

why have i never been interested in anal sex with women? (of

course, not with men, but why not even with women?) too "dirty,"

right? anyway, what's the pt. given the joyous allure of alterna-

tive orifices?....(FEMALE alternative orifices, maybe that's

also the pt.) BUT they say the ass "feels just the same" as the cunt

etc etc....i dunno, i think it's the shit association ("guilty by as-

sociation"), just too dirty....(well, sigmund?) (of course, in the

middle east the pt. is you never fuck a woman any other way, except

your wife or a whore, as jim is quick to pt. out in explanation.)

but anyway i seem not to care about sex these days--even

jim's lucid tales of conquest no longer leave those stinging

pangs of envy (jealousy?) or inadequacy in their wake, the tell-

tale sign if there is one--too burned out i guess, brain cells

fried, mind/spirit/SOUL (?) just too burnt, or too desserted....

....just high enough!

june 14

fucking bike got ripped off thursday night....(no insurance

of course, never any insurance in this life)....that'll learn me

to get stoned BEFORE early evening class so that i forget to

chain and lock it to iron gate outside, per usual....(what was i

discussing in that class? comparative world religions, hah!

specifically, on thursday, confucianism....a "religion"?)

anyway this means i can't follow big charlie pruitt on his

honda 350 to kabul when school ends in 2 weeks....wld have been

cool....but i'll just take the bus or train and meet him there

anyway!

not thinking too much of elaine any more...that's a

relief....smoking bang helps or perhaps in a sense "completes the

circle" since that was a key factor leading to separation in

first place....(?)....(food for thought there, mah freynd....)

june 27

fun time: final exams. the students are great. i see less and

less of ted: he's either in the fucking "fish bar" down near the

bazaar drinking beer with jim (and sometimes mashid, and me)--but

ted chases no women nor men neither, methinks--or holed up in his

room reading psych books and listening to records. "hey jude,

don't be afraid...."

july 3:

classes ended friday. i was getting ready to blast out on a

"greyhound" for the afghan border (charlie leaves on his bike

next week) when, allah be praised, i learned yesterday that a

"hippy bus" from london with a big DELHI sign on top--crossed

channel on a ferry--has serendipitously stopped in our wholesome

city. young freaks (all european) staying at cheap hotels down-

twn right in my neighborhood so easy to meet them and get the

scoop. they have a few seats, the driver gives me a good price if

i hop off in kabul, as is my plan...should be

interesting....there are some nice chicks, mainly english, german

and/or swiss (not many french apparently, too bad) but they seem

pretty spaced out....one german girl (whipped out the old

tongue on her) said she was living in a bathroom of the shah

hotel so i dunno....

july 6:

hippy bus leaves tomorrow.....or.....one day soon? persian time

is rubber time, as they say. "hey folks, it's rubber time!" (why

have they stayed already a week in teheran? repairing bus or some such?

maybe, but whenever i ask anyone including the driver, they're always

too far gone to give a coherent answer. well, ok, a few brits were

talking about seeing the mosques....maybe someone made a quick trip

down to isfahan....)

so when the fuck will i buy a rug to send back to the

states? (well, i'll be back here for another year at least but

mashid encourages me to buy one soon: "sooner is better." maybe

prices going up i dunno.) every time i go into the bazaar i get

lured by those fucking bozos with their hash pipes and little

glasses of tea and virtually "never get back out again" (as ted

heal puts it) (interesting paradox here, since the problem is i

DON'T buy the rug, but i haven't quite fathomed it yet)....(oh,

is see, that's the pt., my life = the ongoing "bazaar" in that

sense.) hmmm. (those guys just want to practice their english, i

think. "shoma anglisi baladid?" or maybe think i can turn them on

to some foreign chicks. especially yesterday since i was there

with frieda of the hippy bus.)

july 10

all right! blasted out of dog city on the hippy bus this

morning, mostly sat in seat alone staring at the prairie, trying

to meditate sufi style (sucking stomach up own asshole) and/or

decode overheard german conversations, but i enjoyed it....sat

and talked with mad frieda for about an hour but she's steadily

toking up like many on bus, driver just breathing it all in!

about halfway to mashad in the middle of fucking nowhere the bus

stopped and the driver said he needed pure water for radiator

(seems hotter to them than to me, that's for sure), so they had

me walking thru this tiny village, mainly the chelo-kebab shops,

asking "Shoma ab darid?" but all i could get was very ordinary

bottled water. they're already carrying lots of this stuff so i

couldn't imagine why the driver thought what i'd found would be

better for his radiator.....(in fact the irani kid had probably

pissed in it for good measure)....but he said the "native water

would be better for the machine." conclusion: desert of eastern

iran (after coming through turkey and western iran), with its

mystical visions, has truly started to fry his brain. (maybe all

their brains.) but: the bus is running.

got into mashad just at sunset, beautiful, chelo kebab dinner

next to cheap hotel where we sleep tonight....may have a shot at

frieda....walking streets after dinner a young irani man, learn-

ing i was the one american in the group, said in perfect english,

with a delightfully world-weary, sardonic tone: "You dig a hole

anywhere in the world and an american will crawl out." maybe i

was supposed to be insulted but i just laughed my ass off. it's

true, of course.

trying not to smoke too much....what better way to "get in

shape" for afghanistan?!?

july 12

jesus christ, yesterday morning paul the driver drove us out

to some "campground" basically in the desert just east of mashad and

about 5 kilimeters west of the afghan border. looks like this time he

really IS fixing something in the engine, but when i asked him he just

said he was "cooling it off for a while." (?!) so these guys mostly

all hung around the bus, napping inside or outside on their blankets

on the ground--some under the bus to get out of the sun. i took a local

bus into town with two brits and a swede and we spent all afternoon in

tea-shops. (not much else to do, of course.) then we came back to the

bus around 6 and they all started asking us to show them how to take the

bus into town to a restaurant for dinner, so we did that. (these guys

are burnt, man.) then all came back to the bus around nine and we all

slept in or on our sleeping bags on the ground...luckily almost never

rains in the desert, and mosquitoes are not bad....(they told me before

this is how they slept most nights since leaving england but only now

did this fact fully sink in.) in a word: i couldn't sleep for shit and

feel like shit this morning. therefore:

i'm blasting, man! why wait for kabul to jump off the hippy bus?

i can just hop a local bus that goes right to the afghan border--a young

guy was just telling me--and crosses it and then on the herat!

i can be in herat tonight! (who knows how long paul and company will

be wasting away in their little "campground" here?!) i'm blasting, man!

i'm psyched!

frank stevenson, taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 15:09:24 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: coned pome

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

coned

god

blown

open as

leaves to

twigs flown

innermown ear

sounding oceans

shellfish sparked

blind moles of hide

hanging halfcocked in

boneshot marrow skin so

skyspaced as dung bee tao

tao too buzz in cored nerve

arc of brain rhizomic burning

branched cone flung treebarking

hair of wind wall wailing saw

skullsong floating sea sung

tao bee dung as skyspaced

so skin marrow boneshot

in halfcocked hanging

hide of moles blind

sparked shellfish

oceans sounding

ear innermown

flown twigs

to leaves

as open

blown

dog

frank stevenson

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:23:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Nick>Its like critizing Tarentino for ripping off John Woo

films - all we know about film comes from other films, so why not?

I think Tarantino was criticized most heavily for ripping off Ringo Lam's

City on Fire for the film Resevoir Dogs.

Anyhow Nick, I liked your mini-essay on on exploitation. I don't really

agree per se, (except with the Ginsberg comments). But with this in mind

my comments are, so what?

What you are saying is true. But so what. Everyone needs to make money.

kerouac's books were published by exploitation publishers. Just like

Burrough's Junky.

Now I could agree with you when it comes to hypocrisy. I don't know if

that comes into play here, but it is unrelated to the question of idealism

except that the staunchest idealists put themselves in the best positions

to become first rate hypocrits.

And since the topic here is MTV bus rides or something (I don't get cable)

wasn't there a show in the fifties or early sixties about two guys driving

around in a car (Route 66 maybe?). Kerouac actually sued back then for

them stealing his On the Road premise.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:23:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

My gosh this is a cynical bunch. Their TV program looks more interesting

than most of the mindslop on TV. Why pre-judge them? Why pre-judge anybody?

In fact, except for violence, why judge anybody at all.

I think the overriding message of Kerouac's writings is a sort of childlike

optimism and wonder with the world. I'd love to see more of that on this

list.

my 2 cents.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 06:52:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jacob Miller <CrowCntr@AOL.COM>

Subject: Quality Poetry

Hello All!!!

I'm looking for poetry submissions, book reviews (of new and old poetry...

or anything...) and music reviews for a new poetry newsletter/ magazine.

I've read many other magazines, and decided it was time to publish a

*quality* poetry zine. I am just starting here, so please bear with me...

Guidelines:

Just about anything goes...

POETRY: (I need LOTS of this....)

Any subject (within reason and good taste)

Length: No more than , oh about 75-100 lines? (negotiable)

Previously unpublished (I don't want to get into any copywrite wars...)

BOOK REVIEWS:

I need reviews on new poet's books, established poet's books, or any

good books you've read and think others would like to read ( probably two or

three reviews per issue, depends on length)

Length: please no more than 300-500 words (also negotiable)

MUSIC:

I need reviews and/or opinions on newly released and classic albumns.

Reviews should be analyzing the poetic aspects of the music and lyrics.

Length: 300-500 words (also negotiable)

SHORT STORY: (sometimes...)

If I have room, I will occasionally publish a short story...

This can be on any subject, fiction, or non, and no longer that 1500

words.

ADVERTISING:

If you have a chapbook, or contest, or whatever, you can put an ad (2

1/2" x 3 1/2") in this zine for $25 for one issue.

PAYMENT:

Payment for a published writer in this magazine, will be two free

copies of the issue in which s/he's featured. Extra copies may be purchased

for two $.32 stamps each.

PRICE!!!!!!!:

This is a free publication!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am planning a sample to be published in November of this year as the

Premier issue! If you would like to recieve a copy please send two $.32

stamps to:

MR JONES:

c/o Jacob Miller

8L Lakeside Drive

Ledyard, CT 06339

Thank you all for taking the time to read this...

-> Please E-Mail *All* submissions to me at CrowCntr@aol.com

-> Please Label your submission - MJ SUB: "Title or subject of submission

here..." - in the subject line of the mail.

-> Remeber to include your real name, and real address with your

submission.

Jacob Miller - CrowCntr@aol.com

P.S. - I will try to include a brief crtique with all submissions, whether

accepted or not. :)

---------------------------

"Figure it! The pining peever! To a Mookse."

-James Joyce - "Finnegan's Wake"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:32:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: coned pome

Frank StevensonWrote:

>a coned pome

Great poem, Frank. Excellent courage to post it; I never would, way too

chicken.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:36:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM> Wrote:

|

|

| My gosh this is a cynical bunch. Their TV program looks more interesting

| than most of the mindslop on TV. Why pre-judge them? Why pre-judge

anybody?

| In fact, except for violence, why judge anybody at all.

Thanks for this, Howard. On the strength of all the other mails, I was going

to go home and burn all the photos my husband and I took when we drove around

Australia. We knew we weren't the first adventurers but we had a fabulous

time nonetheless, met some interesting and unusual people and it felt fresh

and new to us; not at all like it had all been done before.

my 5 cents worth (2 cent coins aren't in circulation here no more)

-Josephine

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:18:46 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: chinese phil conference

Comments: cc: cybermind@jefferson.village.virginia.edu

"1 more time," the man muttered to himself, trying to send out the

note in the tiny bottle onto the chaotic tossing grey sea: it's my last

chance as fly to boston tomorrow (gain a day midflight, pretty weird), am

to present a paper on "i ching" and derridean "writing" (with perhaps

some mention also of deleuze's (& jd's) "fold"/spinozist

expression/implic/explication/[un]"folding" of world)

at an int'l conference of chinese philsophy at B.U. in Boston Aug. 4-8

(though don't know which day yet): anyway, if anyone happens to be in

boston then, welcome to come to this conference--sponsored by Robert

Neville, Dean of School of Theology--on any of these days and see what's

happening......

although I'm notoriously metaphysical and virtually "APOLITICAL"

(or maintain the illusion of being so) if this (illusion) is still

possible in our hyper-political age, many of these scholars of chinese

phil are very political indeed, and quite a few will be from PRC i think

(i may need to help "guide" some of them around town, should be fun) and

these cats tend to be VERRRRY political and see phil as a totally and

manifestly political instrument, as 'twere (which strangely i never could)

....will be much awareness of Harry Wu, PRC/ROC (Taiwan)/USA relations,

etc etc....(sans doute)....Hope to maybe meet a few of you invisible

creatures there....

Frank W. Stevenson

National Taiwan Normal University, Taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:41:18 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: coned pome

In-Reply-To: <199507310029.KAA17836@netmanager.dotc.gov.au>

tanks mon! (thank you, ms. thomson.) i wrote that about 2 yrs ago i

think...wldn't have thought it needed "courage" to post such a poem (just

vanity perhaps, i dunno)--i mean, not too shocking or "obscene" or

anthing like that....just kind of free-form expression, maybe sligthly

schizophrenic around the gills.....("why, i've posted such shocking

things you wouldn't believe! why, i'll post ANYTHING man!

i'll...i'll....i'lllll") fws, taipei (but in boston tomorrow!)

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Josephine Thomson wrote:

> Frank StevensonWrote:

>

> >a coned pome

>

> Great poem, Frank. Excellent courage to post it; I never would, way too

> chicken.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:50:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950729190309.2018G-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Jul 29, 95 07:03:45 pm

> Thank you, Ms. L.B. Bissell, for your wondrous reply-post, full of

> brilliance and wit and at a level of sophistication (Oxford....hmmm, that

> might explain it....notice typical Yank inferiority complex at work here,

> which may help to explain following "ant" metaphor with Lilliputian amp-

> litudes) sufficient to keep me luxuriously "feeding" upon it

> for days and weeks, at my leisure in the late afternoon sun....(more or

> less like a swarm of hungry ants feeding upon the sweetest honied

> carcass....)

> I realize I'm probably too quick to reject the (seemingly, but perhaps

> I've over-simplified them, perhaps that's the point) more blatantly political

> and "politically correct" forms of criticism so fashionable now, e.g.

> cultural studies, post-colonialism, etc: BUT I would still maintain (as

> I did at a recent American Lit conference here where evveryone was saying

> we must emphasize plurality and DIFFERENCES among ethnic groups, no

> old-fashioned notion of lit as expressing UNIVERSAL human qualities was

> to be allowed--because it's always the ones in "power" that define the

> univversal, is that it? this seems nonsense to me--that when Hamlet says

> "Alas poor Yorick,/I knew him well, Horatio/He was a fellow of infinite

> jest"....or when Chguang-tzu says "This is also that," there is something

> deeper and more "univversal" at work or play than the levvel of

> socio-ethnic-political "differences" or group-identities....)

>

> fws

i am ignorant of the response you are referring to, but as for your view

about the "politically correct'ness" being thrown about here, i must

agree. it's a reality that takes away from unification. the americans

who emphasize the importance of pc'ness are relentless in the pursuit of

breaking groups into smaller subunits until a connection ceases to exist.

i recently heard a speaker in biology give a talk about vitamin d

production in relation to melanin production and uv exposure. her

science spoke of the only reason physical differences exist...it was the

best talk i've heard in a long time. i got to thinking that it's the

physical differences that contribute to the fear of the societal

differences...it seems to be a neverending ride that leads to

intolerance. her talk wasn't so focused that it narrowed the mind of the

listener as many science people do. she brought us all together.

i have enjoyed your submissions. i, too, have experienced the meditative

effect of nature. (i find that focusing on my breath leads me to the voices

that flow in my mind..not peaceful at all) and i look forward to your

talk about the i ching. i've spoken with pagans and got interested in the

connection with runes and the i ching. seems like if we go back further

and further...we all follow a similar path. slight modifications turn

into drastic differences only when we perceive them as such.

i'm not a literary scholar. in fact, you intimidate me, fws. but the

tao brings me balance and as long as i see this, there is peace.

k

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:21:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950729185553.2018C-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Jul 29, 95 06:56:04 pm

fws

reading your journal entries reminded me of a discussion i had with a

friend the other day. he's completely devoted to proust and when i asked

him if that's why he connected with neal cassidy, he told me that he

never read _on the road_, but that he knew cassidy was (among other things)

a habitual masturbator. i got to thinking about why... he was seeking

the pleasure and the experience, but he probably didn't know of another

way to experience intense physical pleasure other than climax. so he did

it again and again, leaving him empty until the next time. you mention the

"dirtiness" of anal sex...yet tantric sex concentrates in this area for a

man... (i wonder if cassidy had experienced this, or if his pleasure was

always stop and go..never reaching a higher level of sensation)

i guess this is all related to feelings i have about false starts in my

life...traveling along a path, not feeling doubt or regret, not feeling

much of anything. never questioning, just following, then the spark...my

mind opens and i see things are not as they seemed. i am frightened and

doubtful...all my life i've thought that if i made decisions that were true to

myself, i wouldn't regret them, i mean, regret is useless, it can't change

things. but here i am...no longer in pursuit of a goal i thought i believed in.

how could i have let myself go so far without questioning? like many in

science, i put on blinders...i won't get into it...it's boring.

i said that you intimidate me...intimidation is the wrong word...(i do not

choose words well)...it's your life and your choices that overwhelm me...at

least from what you have written to this group. the feeling that i am

starting over in my pursuits scares me...realizing there is so little i know

compared to what is out there... and yet i've never been more alive. maybe

i've just transferred to a different route.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:04:31 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <199507311721.NAA08601@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

(based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

"political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

(well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:12:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950801025635.28856E-100000@sun4> from "Frank

Stevenson" at Aug 1, 95 03:04:31 am

>

> Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

> (based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

> east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

> and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

> this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

> qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

> newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

i read something and feel as if that person is here with me right

now...i'm sure many others do. i know what you mean about the

therapy..it's a catharsis for me...only difference is that i do care too

much what other people think. have to get over this.

> or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

> i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

> thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

> clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

> that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

> one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

> etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

> oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

> people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

> "political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

i think the key word is obsession..about sexuality, about drugs, about

government/politics and i think it comes from understanding only certain

aspects and not the overall picture. this is only my guess, but peyote

and coca leaves can bring about heightened awareness yet when their

abused (or altered chemically to be more concentrated) you lose that...it

goes downhill. a big problem i see is intolerance due to lack of

understanding about sexuality...politicians and clergy define sexual

boundaries and sexuality isn't black and white. one thing i've always

believed in is the constitution...freedom...but too many want

control...

too many sides pulling..something's gonna give.

> (well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

> think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

> i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

> come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

don't know of a time that i would like to be frozen in...i think i've

been stuck for too long in the nothingness i felt in the 80's.

kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:33:57 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>>

>> Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

>> (based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

>> east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

>> and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

>> this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

>> qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

>> newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

>

>i read something and feel as if that person is here with me right

>now...i'm sure many others do. i know what you mean about the

>therapy..it's a catharsis for me...only difference is that i do care too

>much what other people think. have to get over this.

>

>> or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

>> i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

>> thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

>> clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

>> that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

>> one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

>> etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

>> oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

>> people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

>> "political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

>

>i think the key word is obsession..about sexuality, about drugs, about

>government/politics and i think it comes from understanding only certain

>aspects and not the overall picture. this is only my guess, but peyote

>and coca leaves can bring about heightened awareness yet when their

>abused (or altered chemically to be more concentrated) you lose that...it

>goes downhill. a big problem i see is intolerance due to lack of

>understanding about sexuality...politicians and clergy define sexual

>boundaries and sexuality isn't black and white. one thing i've always

>believed in is the constitution...freedom...but too many want

>control...

>too many sides pulling..something's gonna give.

>

>> (well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

>> think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

>> i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

>> come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

>

>don't know of a time that i would like to be frozen in...i think i've

>been stuck for too long in the nothingness i felt in the 80's.

>kristen

>

>please stop jamming my mailbox with this personal shit, keep on the beat

topic or use e-mail.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:31:45 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>Thanks for your note....I dunno, those are just actual journal entries

>(based that is on true events, I was teaching in Teheran and then heading

>east) from 1974, but somewhat edited/reised....(Maybe 'cause I'm 50 now

>and stuck in a pretty routine family and teaching life I tend to remember

>this stuff more and more and live in the memories, and always have less

>qualms about "publishing" it than I once would have--I don;t know why my

>newfound desire to "publish" this stuff, which once I'd have been too shy

>or embarrassed to do....some kind of strange theraphy maybe, or more like

>i just "don't give a hit what others will think" any more....but the main

>thing about those years in the Middle East & India was (as should be

>clear from the journals) I was much too "into" getting stoned (hashish),

>that was my whole life, I didn't think about sex (of course, when stoned

>one doesn't "need" it) much at all, or anything else (money, politics,

>etc)...(i never thought about hetero vs homosexual or anal vs genital vvs

>oral sex etc in those days & only added that entry because i know how

>people NOW are so obsessed (?) with these things...people are so

>"political" now, no? what happened to the good old days (60's/70's) of

>(well, ok) sex, DRUGS and rock 'n' roll? (i often wonder about this: i

>think living in asia since 1973 has effectively frozen me in time...)

>i'll be in boston at b.u. at a chinese phil conference aug 4-8; i may

>come down to haunt the east village aug 15-20 or so.... frank stevenson

>

>this has nothing to do with the topic..............find another forum or,

better

yet, confine your correspondence to e-mail.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:29:54 -1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ray Freed <indigo@ILHAWAII.NET>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

>fws

>

>reading your journal entries reminded me of a discussion i had with a

>friend the other day. he's completely devoted to proust and when i asked

>him if that's why he connected with neal cassidy, he told me that he

>never read _on the road_, but that he knew cassidy was (among other things)

>a habitual masturbator. i got to thinking about why... he was seeking

>the pleasure and the experience, but he probably didn't know of another

>way to experience intense physical pleasure other than climax. so he did

>it again and again, leaving him empty until the next time. you mention the

>"dirtiness" of anal sex...yet tantric sex concentrates in this area for a

>man... (i wonder if cassidy had experienced this, or if his pleasure was

>always stop and go..never reaching a higher level of sensation)

>

>i guess this is all related to feelings i have about false starts in my

>life...traveling along a path, not feeling doubt or regret, not feeling

>much of anything. never questioning, just following, then the spark...my

>mind opens and i see things are not as they seemed. i am frightened and

>doubtful...all my life i've thought that if i made decisions that were true to

>myself, i wouldn't regret them, i mean, regret is useless, it can't change

>things. but here i am...no longer in pursuit of a goal i thought i

believed in.

>how could i have let myself go so far without questioning? like many in

>science, i put on blinders...i won't get into it...it's boring.

>

>i said that you intimidate me...intimidation is the wrong word...(i do not

>choose words well)...it's your life and your choices that overwhelm me...at

>least from what you have written to this group. the feeling that i am

>starting over in my pursuits scares me...realizing there is so little i know

>compared to what is out there... and yet i've never been more alive. maybe

>i've just transferred to a different route.

>

>what the hell does this have to do with beat discussion?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:46:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: VJ <the.Literary.Denim@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Frank Stevenson

Get off the channel, Frank. Yr off topic, yr topic is noise, yr writing is

mediocre, and yr a nuisance.

Everyone else . . . sorry for the flame, but this guy's ego has poured into

this channel for more than I can be quiet about, and this is the only way I

can get at him.

Frank: go away!

\\|//

(o o)

--------------oOO--( )--OOo----------------------

vj@primenet.com | City Pigeons

Tempe, AZ | Ate Popcorn on Mkt St.

| But Now They're Dead

--------------ooooO---Ooooo----------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:54:04 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Frank Stevenson

In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:46:21 -0700

At least Frank is posting something. Taking it to e-mail becomes a valid

thing to do at a certain point, I agree, but I don not think frank has to go

away.

I would rather get Frank's stuff than these whiner mssges from Hawaii and

Tempe.

Tim

(To hear Jack speak:

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/!gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

)

ugh that should be ~gallaher (not !gallaher) aye yo

ok

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:02:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: Frank & Kirsten are okay by me

To VJ & Ray & anyone else:

I quite enjoyed Kirsten & Frank's contributions. And what they are saying is

relevant to this newsgroup: the search for how to live. I think it is

impossible to discuss the beats. or any other literature which really moves

you, without coming back to the personal. Besides, we're all meant to be

friends of a sort and what's wrong with tolerating someone branching off, just

a little, from the topic?

Josephine

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:06:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject: going down to get a dictionary

Sorry: Kristen, not Kirsten.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:25:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Frank & Kirsten are okay by me

Who is Frank?

It is not so much the subject, but when I logged on today, I

thought some how the freeway signs on the information highway ahd

become reversed and I got on the wrong path. I don't quite understand

how those messages tie in to a discussion of Beat writers. Yes,

sometimes its quite on this newsgroup, but personally I'm not in favor

of random postings that are not related to the Beats. I'm probably not

alone in having @ 50 msgs. a day to get through, and prefer to at least

know what the heck is going on when I pull up a message. This is definately

NOT a FLAME of Frank, Kirsten or anyone else. Just MHO.

Lisa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:02:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John A. Urciuoli" <JUrciuoli@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beats and the femmes

I read your comment and fully agreed. You may want to read a fine book

titled Minor Characters. This book delves into the exact territory you are

discussing. It is written by Joyce Johnson. She was Kerouacs girlfriend

during the two years surrounding the publication of On The Road. Very

enlightening. Check it out.

John-

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:48:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: going down 2 (fwd)

Interesting comments and observations...really.

But are you guys in the right room? Anyway, just got into Chinaski's

HOLLYWOOD...If you're a Bukowski fan, you'll enjoy it. It's about the making

of the BARFLY film.

Maintain,

Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:56:14 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Thorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Kerouac Letters

The tide must certainly be turning when the TLS gives a selection

of Kerouac letters to a sympathetic reviewer -:

James Campbell in the current issue, p22, reviews the Kerouac letters

and the Ginsberg Journals jointly, giving, quite properly, Kerouac

prominence.

"Commonly seen as pariahs of the American literary tradition,

the Beats are in fact deeply embedded in it, embracing everything

from Transcendentalism to Civil Disobedience to Wild West adeventure,

attractively tinged with criminality."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:16:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <Michael_Heeg_at_EDUPO@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

The Stones, Eagles, The Grateful Dead (OOPs) are out there rocking, give me a

break these bands had their days and they were back in the sixties not the 90's.

There are a lot of good rock n' roll bands out there now. Classic rock is fine

but there is so much out there, take a chance and go out and buy something new,

Bob.

michael______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

Subject: Re: Re[2]: Totally Hip kathryn..

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 8/31/95 8:21 PM

Gene:

Rock 'n' Roll DEAD!

No way daddyo. The Stones are out there rocking along with the Eagles and

other 60's groups. ''Classic Rock is alive and well in LA.

Tune in MAN- it could all be hapening all over again!

Bob

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:29:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Roth <BobR6969@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

Cool Dude Mike:

Great music transcends time Mike. There is a strong philosophical

relationship between the music of some 60's rockers and the Beats. I offer

you the following:

Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, R. Waters and

the list goes on.

You are correct about the good rock of the 90's. The media often writes about

today's youth as Generation X. I don't like labels; however, many of my

college students can identify with the Beats and the 60's because they are

part of the Generation X phenomena. My children listen to Green Day and

Weezer. I am not smart enough to know if that is good music, but I like it.

There you have it- that's your break.

Bob

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:48:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Teaching the Beats

Bob:

How are you?

Grat to see your kids digging it all.

Idea:

Do some comparative work with Whitman and Ginsberg. We had a ball doing it in

a graduate class I took,

Regards,

Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:46:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

Seems to me all this new rock is derivative and damned depressing. Life has

enough angst. I'd rather listen to jazz now. Stones,Eagles?? Nah.

Maybe reggae,

Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:59:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Roth <BobR6969@AOL.COM>

Subject: Not a sexist bastard

Mike:

I should have included the following women in my list of 60's related

rockers: Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell,Buffy Saint Marie,Carol King

and the list goes on and on.............

Bob- just an old fool lost in the 60's

"The only thing I can offer you is my own confusion".

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:41:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

In-Reply-To: <950901112937_8631171@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Robert Roth" at

Sep 1, 95 11:29:37 am

> relationship between the music of some 60's rockers and the Beats. I offer

> you the following:

> Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, R. Waters and

> the list goes on.

Got all the others, but would you explain Page & Plant please?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:16:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Elsie Pettit <pettit@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

In-Reply-To: <950901114642_8644681@emout04.mail.aol.com>

Well, Gene, then you should mosey on over to the jazz-l list! We're a

real friendly group!

Elsie

**************************************************************

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a

dog, it's too dark to read."

----groucho marx

**************************************************************

On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Gene Simakowicz wrote:

> Seems to me all this new rock is derivative and damned depressing. Life has

> enough angst. I'd rather listen to jazz now. Stones,Eagles?? Nah.

>

>

> Maybe reggae,

> Gene

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:36:21 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

hey, cool, you're on both, too then!

- broo

aka Greeley not Creeley

(!)

----------

From: Elsie Pettit <pettit@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

Date: Friday, September 01, 1995 1:16PM

Well, Gene, then you should mosey on over to the jazz-l list! We're a

real friendly group!

Elsie

**************************************************************

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a

dog, it's too dark to read."

----groucho marx

**************************************************************

On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Gene Simakowicz wrote:

> Seems to me all this new rock is derivative and damned depressing. Life has

> enough angst. I'd rather listen to jazz now. Stones,Eagles?? Nah.

>

>

> Maybe reggae,

> Gene

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:27:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: andrei codrescu

(as she artfully dodges the music debate. . . )

so, does anyone read andrei codrescu, poet, essayist, author and NPR

commentator? he's pals with ginsberg - allen gave andrei his blessing when

andrei embarked on a car trip through america - and as andrei left, he

quoted jack kerouac: ' the earth is an indian thing' - i'm reading his new

novel, _the blood countess_ which is perfectly eerie. . . .

--gab

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 22:52:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masculinity, violence, and night-time-jitters

>I've got the night-before-classes-begins-jitters, and I tried to watch a

>repeat of the local news with the hope that it would put me to sleep.

>Needless to say, I'm still awake.

>

>Here's my basic question: In regard to beat literature, is it cliche to draw

>a connection between violence/misogyny and testosterone? I know this is a

>sexist question, but it's not meant to be. I'm not necessarily talking about

>Burroughs, Kerouac, Bukowski, etc., although I did have them in mind. I've

>recently read an excerpt from an Acker novel, and the violence was

>consistently male-on-female. I don't think my question is irrelevant, but I

>wonder if I'm being too "surface." I have a hard time believing that the

>anti-female notion that is prevalent throughout the beat literature should be

>blamed on the Y chromosome; however, I am finding that woman often take on

>multiple, and quite negative, roles.

>

>Any thoughts? I'm just so sick of hearing about Jerry Garcia.

>

>Laurie Syrek

Here is a story I have wanted to talk about for a long time. It took place

about ten years ago in a town far now away that was called a feminist

paradise by a national magazine. I was an undergraduate at thelocal

university. On the weekends I always stayed in town with some friends of

mine also from my home town. I'd moved there independently but later met

them in this feminist paradise of a city. And it was a beautiful city on

the coast, with beautiful redwood forests just up the hill a few miles. I

lived in the mountains with some other friends who were students during the

week. But the weekends I spent in town with my compariots from the old

town. They were two brothers and a friend of theirs. They weren't going

to college. The brothers worked construction and the other guy found a job

at a car dealership. Our quintet was rounded out by a young woman from the

old town who was a freshman at the same university as I. She lived in the

dorms and also stayed at the guys' apartment on the weekends. We mainly

hung out, smoked dope and played music. I had actually sold my drum set to

the older brother to make some money for my move to this feminist paradise

college town beach community mountain retreat. He's since bought

electronic drums I think, so whither my old drum set I cannot say.

They had an apartment near downtown in a building with 2 or 3 other

apartments. On one side were the fighting heterosexuals. This apartment

seemed to be like a crash pad for older hippy like dudes. A guy we met

later's Mother lived there. She seemed to be an alcoholic maybe. And a

bunch of thirtyish hippy dude 70's type guys stayed there. Who knows who

they were, but they'd fight. To get an idea what they were like I'd

compare them to David Crosby in the seventies and eighties. Fat old hippy

dudes that'd drink or do drugs. This town was not just a feminist paradise

but also a hippy paradise and new age paradise or whatever else paradise

was available. There was a nightclub nearby and these sorts hung out there

all the time. We called it a negative energy vortex and were frigtened

every time we walked by it. Although ostensibly it was a hippy love place.

Neal Young would play there to try out his new stuff (the International

Harvesters, remember them). Woody's boy'd play there. It should have been

a good vibes place, one would think, but it seemed ugly and nasty to me.

Weird sexual revolution vibes and violence vibes. Once when passing by I

saw this big woman screaming at someone, then come roaring out of the

vestibule full speed ahead and crash her head into thewindow of a truck

that some guy was pulling away from the curb in. Obviously the object of

her wrath was within. It seemed to me that these David Crosbys would hang

out at this negative energy vortex drinking, go home later, and be

frustrated. Sexually frustrated maybe, or just frustrated in general. But

they'd start to fight. And we'd hear it and feel it. We'd hear grumbling

and growling, muffled through the wall. "Rrruba muga miga ragga rigga you

so&so." And then they'd fight. We'd here scuffling and slapping, then

hitting the wall, then pow, two fat David Crosbys falling to the floor

together in an angry embrace. And we'd feel it because their wall was our

wall and our floor was their floor and there were two fat guys banging

around wrestling on it. They'd fight and yell til they must have been too

tired to go on. While they fought we'd huddle together in fear, softly

saying "Oh no, oh no". We even met a guy with an interesting history (who

later hung around a lot) because of this. He was a younger guy about our

ages, late teens, early 20's. His mother was the alcoholic looking woman

who lived there. So I guess he was staying there one night when the

fighting began. He came across the hall and knocked on our door. "Hey

guys, is it all right if I hang out here for awhile?" he quietly asked. Of

course we said sure. We found out later he was wanted by the FBI for

stealing a boat out of the yacht harbor with a couple other guys. It was

easy. The ringmaster just went on the boats at night and scoped out the

one's where the owners left the keys in. They sailed down to Mexico in it

with the dream of making their living by taking tourists on sight-seeing

cruises. But a little thing called El Nino caused them to crash the boat

and ruin it on the baja coast. So he made it back to the border and swam

the river. Later when the FBI caught up with him he didn't seem to get

into too much trouble. Probation I guess. He cooperated. The feds were

after the ringleader not his young accomplices. So he learned his lesson.

We do dumb things when we are young. (And I'm sure we will do dumb things

when we are old, maybe not so many).

In the apartment on one side were the fighting David Crosbys. But on the

otherside were a couple we dubbed the Battling Dykes. We could also hear

them and feel them as onewould beat the other. We'd hear the one start

accusing the other in a voice so hate-filled I have seldom heard it

matched. "You bitch, you whore, you cunt," she would seethe (please

forgive me for relating this awfull language). "I saw the way you were

looking at her." And the other one would blubber, crying "no, no, no".

Then smack slap. More crying and pleading. Then we'd hear and feel one

desperately crawling across the hardwood floor to get away. We'd feel this

because their floor was our floor and, sitting there in our

doped-up-on-humboldt-sinse heightend sensitivity, it'd reverberate through

the floor and through us. The other would clunk clunk across the floor

after her, grab her and then both wpould clammer flat onto the floor. The

name calling would go on and pound pound pound on the floor, pound pound

pound on the wall. I could see in my head what I was hearing with my ears

and feeling with every nerve-ending in my scared sad body: one sitting on

the other, grabbing her by the hair and pounding her head against the

floor, pounding her head against the wall. Beating her over and over,

screaming in her jealous rage. One evening we were walking home. As we

passed by their window we saw, above the lower three quarters of the window

that was covered with a blanket, a crutch, straight up in the air. It was

waved about and then, thwack, swiftly and violently it was brought down

below our view. Then it was up above the blanket, then down. Up and down

up and down. She was beating her with a crutch.

To this day it is to my shame that I didn't call the police and tell them

that there was a woman beating another woman near to death. The thought

never even crossed my stoned out mind. Smoking dope or doing any drugs

never does anybody any good.

How could things like this happen? They happen all over, all the time.

Today as we read this there's gotta be couples fighting. A man beating a

man, a woman beating a man, a man beating a woman, a woman beating a woman.

Right now I'll bet.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 20:15:16 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: andrei codrescu

Yeah, I saw ROAD SCHOLAR. I liked it but thought it would have been better if

he had, for instance, stopped to see Burroughs in Kansas and Ferlinghetti in

San Francisco. Also the version I saw was taped off of PBS. Can you tell me

-- Is the version in video stores longer, or different? About Codrescu as

poet and writer I'm not overly enthusiastic. Which work do you think is his

best?

Dan B.

dan_barth@redwoodfn.org

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 20:44:21 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Masculinity, violence, and night-time-jitters

Pretty good. I think I know that town. I liked the bar, had good vibes and

good times there. I smoked sense and danced. Don't think it has done me any

permanent harm. I know a magazine here in Northern California that would

publish your story. Don't get excited -- No pay. But it would fit right in.

About this thread, I was thinking last night, and your story bears it out,

that it's a mistake to say, "Men are violent, women are peaceful." We are all

equal human beings and shouldn't be judged on the basis of sex any more than

on race, height, weight, hair color or any other secondary quality. Peaceful

man is not an oxymoron, though military intelligence and flavored vodka, in

my opinion, are.

Dan B.

dan_barth@redwoodfn.org

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 17:55:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Teaching the Beats

at naropa, ginsberg told a student to write about his girlfriend instead of

politics.........

....rene

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 18:03:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Also introducing...

i scored a 'poetry readings in the cellar' record with ferlinghetti and

rexroth for 75c....those must've been pretty sweaty readings...

....rene

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 23:13:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: CD-Romnibus

Just wondering. Has anyone actually seen the Jack kerouac CD romnibus.

If so how much are they asking and any other coments.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 12:17:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

In-Reply-To: <199509040613.XAA03452@hsc.usc.edu>

I ordered the CD at the conference in NY this past June (ordered and paid

for), but have neither heard nor seen it. I get no help from Penguin,

despite phone calls, e-mail, etc. Bummer. I want to use it for my class

on the Beats. It was around $40 at the conference rate and looked quite

good. Now if the thing would just arrive.

Dan Terkla

Dept. of English

Illinois Wesleyan Univ.

On Sun, 3 Sep 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> Just wondering. Has anyone actually seen the Jack kerouac CD romnibus.

>

> If so how much are they asking and any other coments.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 12:24:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ralph Virgo <rvirgo@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

You wrote:

>

>I ordered the CD at the conference in NY this past June (ordered and

paid

>for), but have neither heard nor seen it. I get no help from Penguin,

>despite phone calls, e-mail, etc. Bummer. I want to use it for my

class

>on the Beats. It was around $40 at the conference rate and looked

quite

>good. Now if the thing would just arrive.

>

>Dan Terkla

>Dept. of English

>Illinois Wesleyan Univ.

>

>

Same thing happened to me, except I haven't called them yet. Was

planning to call this week. If I find out anything, I'll let you know.

By the way, if you are interested in checking it out, I maintain a Web

page called Inside the Kerouac Legacy. It's at

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/IKL.html

and/or accessible from Levi Asher's Beat News

Ralph

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 15:39:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Doctor Slothrop <DrSLOTHROP@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

The disc is scheduled to ship mid- to late- September. It should be worth

the wait.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 18:19:00 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mike Kolibaba <radauti@AGORA.RDROP.COM>

Subject: Re: andrei codrescu

>(as she artfully dodges the music debate. . . )

>

> so, does anyone read andrei codrescu, poet, essayist, author and NPR

>commentator? he's pals with ginsberg - allen gave andrei his blessing when

>andrei embarked on a car trip through america - and as andrei left, he

>quoted jack kerouac: ' the earth is an indian thing' - i'm reading his new

>novel, _the blood countess_ which is perfectly eerie. . . .

>

>

> --gab

I am a big Codrescu fan, partly because I am Romanian-American, but also

because I like his commentaries and writings. I saw him read here recently

(Portland, OR) from "The Blood Countess." He was extremely witty. During

the question and answer session, I asked him "have you driven a car again

since making 'Road Scholar?' "

"Oh, no," he replied, "I only drive for art." It brought the house down.

He also autographed two books for me and was quite gracious.

I have read several of his books and especially like "The Hole in the Flag."

I also enjoyed "The Disappearance of the Outside," though I found it a bit

difficult to get through. I just picked up "Zombification," a collection of

his NPR commentaries, which I've not yet had time to finish. I like what

I've read so far, though.

I saw "Road Scholar" in a theater and loved it. I was disappointed,

however, that PBS cut it somewhat when they aired it recently. Any other

comments from people in this group?

Mike Kolibaba

"What the hell, I don't know, but to me a home in the suburbs is a sort of

isolated hell where nothing happens."

-- Jack Kerouac, letter to his sister Caroline, March 14, 1945.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 04:35:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ronald Fritts <rfritts@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Andrei

Also love Andrei. I thhink he is, in many ways, closer to the spirit

of the Beats than anyone going...In the commentaries, the theater

version of "Road Scholar". Now, "Blood Countess" isn't necessarily

Beat, but it is delicious fun.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 10:45:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

In-Reply-To: <199509041924.MAA03815@ix8.ix.netcom.com>

Thanks for the web-page info, Ralph. I'll check it out and will let you

know if I hear anything from Penguin re: the Kerouac CD.

Cheers,

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 11:13:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac CD-ROM (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 12:12:17 -0400

From: MindMotion@aol.com

To: terkla@titan.iwu.edu

Subject: Kerouac CD-ROM

Dear Dan Terkla,

I was forwarded a message you posted on the Beat-L list this past weekend

regarding the Kerouac CD-ROM you ordered at the NYU Beat Conference.

As one of the executive producers of the disc, I'm pleased to report the

title will be shipping from Penguin in the next few weeks. Sorry for the

delay, but the project's been monumental in scope, involving dozens of

researchers, writers, designers, archivists, etc., all of whom worked

tirelessly for almost two years to put the thing together.

We hope you'll be pleased with the results.

All best,

Grant Kornberg

(please feel free to share this info with your list)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 12:43:12 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Totally Hip kathryn..

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:04:42 -0400 from <BobR6969@AOL.COM>

On Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:04:42 -0400 Robert Roth said:

>Totally Hip Kathryn:

>I am currently using a three cassett set titled "the Beat Generation". I

>don't know if one can find it in CD. The cassetts contain readings,

>interviews, jazz and generally cool stuff about the beat generation.

>I found my set at Crown Books in Los Angeles; however, you can write Rhino

>Records Inc., 2225 Colorado Ave., Santa Monica, CA 90404 for more

>information.

>Bob

Yes, it is available in cd

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 12:35:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: Andrei Codrescu

Hmm... I liked _The Disappearance of the Outside_ and _The Muse is

Always Half Dressed In New Orleans_ and I am about 1/4 of the way through

_The Blood Countess_ which I think is bewitching. . . I first heard his

voice, via NPR - an essay about New Orleans - so it is his essays that I am

hooked on and when I read them, I hear his voice. . . he has a recording

called "No Tacos for Saddam" that is wonderful - most of the pieces are

collected in several of his books - I was unaware that "Road Scholar" was

available in video. . . I don't have a VCR, so I have no way of knowing if

it is a longer version. . . but PBS rarely shorts programs, in my experience.

gabby

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 15:52:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: beatCDs

Kathryn,

Other than the 3-CD Rhino _The Beat Generation_ set, you might also

look at Ginsberg's _Holy Soul Jelly Roll_ 4-CD Rhino set, and _Howls,

Raps & Roars_ 4-CD Fantasy set (this latter contains Ferlinghetti,

Ginsberg, and other Beat writers performing their works). For some

unusual (and cheaper) alternatives, Ferlinghetti recites one of his

poems on the film _The Last Waltz_ (about the Band's last performance),

and Ginsberg does a poem of his own on one of the songs on the Clash's

_Combat Rock_ CD. To get some of the less available recordings, you might

contact Jeffrey Weinberg at Water Row Books, P.O.Box 438, Sudbury, MA

01776; he's been very helpful to me.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 17:02:23 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

The Kerouac CD ROM will be demonstrated and sold at the Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac! Festival, 4-9 October, Lowell, MA. Let me know if you need info.

The brochures are going out at the end of the week. Also Patti Smith,

Herbert Huncke and Willie Alexander.

Mark Hemenway

Chairman, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:03:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: denverbeat

Andrew,

For the Denver connection,

1) a recent issue of the _Missouri Review_ 17.3 (1994): 109-60

contains 15 letters from Kerouac to Ed White, dated 1947-68. The

foreword to this issue contains editorial comments on Kerouac's

Denver friends.

2) Flanagan, Mike. "Out West." _Denver Post Empire Magazine_ 8

July 1984: 22.

3) Dumas, Alan. "The Beat Goes On." _Rocky Mountain New Sunday

Magazine_ 26 July 1992: M10-12.

4) Hernandez, Romel. "Kerouac Fulfilled His Destiny as the Heart

of Beat"

and

Dumas, Alan. "Cassady and Denver Helped Spawn the Beats."

both in

_Rocky Mountain News_, Spotlight section, 26 June 1994: 63A & 64A.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:32:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Teaching the Beats

ive never had a class persay on the beats, but i think someone should try to

teach burroughs for a change....ginsberg and kerouac are amazing,but bill's

unique prose is simply brilliant!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:41:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Accessing chat channels for interactive Beat discussions

how do you access a chat channel? im very interested in a" virtual beating".

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:53:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Also introducing...

id like a copy....can you change it to a midi file?....if not ill send cash

for a copy on cassette....dont care about how quality it is.....e-mail if

willing

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:54:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

i dont know what romnibus is...but i have the boxed set....ill try to convert

it to a midi file and send it to you if you want....if you know how send me

the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:59:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: denverbeat

whats with denver, the beats, the dead?...some connection...i know all the

beats write about denver...some kind of city of sin? whats the deal...sounds

quaintly post-war-apocolyptic....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 21:00:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CD-Romnibus

YES,YES,YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 13:06:04 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Juan Cires Martinez <jcm@MAT.UPM.ES>

How do you pronounce Kerouac?

Juan.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 08:04:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: Kerouac pronunciation

As literal as I can get it:

CARE - ROO - ACK (as in Bill the Cat, gagging) The 'ou' bit needs

to be like the 'ou' in 'you'.

Anyway, that's the way I've heard it. . .

===========================================================================

"Look at me - I'm way cool. I'm off | gabby hon

with my way cool friends to sniff | indianapolis, in

floor wax." -Brian to Angela, "MSCL" | raindog@iquest.net

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 18:26:49 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Juan Cires Martinez <jcm@MAT.UPM.ES>

Has anyone mentioned Philip Glass' opera "The Hydrogen Jukebox," whose

libretto is a collection of poems by Allen Ginsberg, who even recites

some of them?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 20:25:36 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Kerouac pronunciation

Now how about Duluoz?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:32:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac pronunciation

Comments: To: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

In-Reply-To: <2042167293.244689115@RedwoodFN.org>

Doo-loo-oz or Doo-loo-ohz, at least these are the ways I've always

pronounced Duluoz.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:50:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: pronunciation mania

actually, i just cheat and say/think: 'duh-looz', in my best brooklynese

===========================================================================

"Look at me - I'm way cool. I'm off | gabby hon

with my way cool friends to sniff | indianapolis, in

floor wax." -Brian to Angela, "MSCL" | raindog@iquest.net

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:16:24 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Masculinity, violence, and night-time-jitters

I've been thinking of posting my review of HOW I BECAME HETTIE JONES, a book I

have not tired of touting. This review ran here and there a few years back. I

think it is appropriate for this thread. So if I can fool around successfully

with discs and select, copy, paste and all that rigamarole . . . here it is.

Best,

Dan B.

dan_barth@redwoodfn.org

HOW I BECAME HETTIE JONES

by Hettie Jones, Penguin Books,

New York, 1991. 239 pp., $8.95.

In her introduction to THE PORTABLE BEAT READER, Ann Charters writes that

"most women living with or married to the Beats . . . took care of the

children, worked to support the family, and did little writing, mostly

memoirs years later." Hettie Jones was one of those women and this is one of

those memoirs, published "years later," but nonetheless a valuable addition

to Beat literature.

Here's a great sentence from early in the book: "At night, in my narrow

maple bed, under the starched, white, ruffled pink-ribbon-threaded spread my

mother had made, I'd make up stories with myself as the hero of great

seafaring adventures." Jones has a simple, direct, elegant style. Right to

the point. No bullshit, but thought out and true. It reminds me of Malcolm

Cowley, and in fact this book makes a great sequel to THE DREAM OF THE GOLDEN

MOUNTAINS, Cowley's memoir of the 1930s. Both are personal memoirs which

function as social and literary history because written by superior observers

who were part of that history.

Hettie's memoir is primarily of the New York art scene from the

mid-1950s through the early 1960s, the burgeoning Beat scene of which she and

LeRoi Jones were integral parts. It was jazz music that first brought them

together but, as Hettie points out, "part and parcel of every discussion [of

jazz] was sociopolitical theory and the history of racism." The history of

racism is very much part and parcel of this book. As an interracial couple in

the Eisenhower 50s, Mr. and Mrs. Jones had to deal not only with the censure

of society at large, but more specifically with her middle class Jewish

parents and his middle class Negro(still the operative word in those days)

parents. Their decision to live together, and to live as artists, outside the

middle class made them part of "the cut-and-run passions, the liaisons,

bohemia's slippery, discontinuous social fabric. . . ," a world their parents

could not comprehend.

Hettie writes wonderful scenes -- in the supermarket, on the sidewalk, on

the bus -- and makes them stand for much more. She has the ability to paint

them superbly and finish them off with a flourish so that they become produce

market parables, sidewalk satoris, allegories for the artistic process. Her

relationship with Roi also functions as a paradigm. She gets inside what it's

like to be locked in a relationship, the heavy shit -- extramarital affairs,

violent arguments, breaking plates, hitting each other -- but lays it out

clean, without rancor or recriminations. She also paints the beauty of the

New York scene, the fantastic art, music and poetry; the parties, families

and friends.

One reviewer, I believe it was in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, wrote that this

book is evidence of what happens when artists of unequal talent are paired.

I think that reviewer missed the point entirely. At one point Hettie was

caring for two children, cleaning a new apartment, typing and editing LeRoi's

BLUES PEOPLE, and reading galley proofs of Frantz Fanon's THE WRETCHED OF THE

EARTH for Grove Press. And this is the lesser artist in the family?

The point this book brings to the fore is that raising children and cooking

and sewing and keeping a household together are just as much legitimate art

forms as the creation of books and poems. I wonder if Jan Kerouac would

trade, say, SATORI IN PARIS and PIC, for two years, or two weeks, of

attention and care from old Jack. As much as we admire Kerouac and Cassady we

have to see their lives, at least in part, as cautionary tales. Behind the

Kerouacs and LeRoi Joneses of this world are strong women who make the life

of the people. If there is to be any real chance of "poetry and justice for

all," then we all need to get in touch with the parts of ourselves that

nurture and care, so we can give the lie to Hettie's statement -- "Like most

men then and now Roi did little to help."

This book will lead you to others: to Joyce Johnson's MINOR CHARACTERS for

starters, a similarly inspired memoir which is acknowledged for its

influence; to BLUES PEOPLE and HOME and THE MODERNS by LeRoi Jones; and to

works by other writers who were part of the parties and the problems of the

Jones household -- Fielding Dawson, Hubert Selby, Jr., Diane Di Prima and

Frank O'Hara, among others.

Okay, I'm finished raving about this book. There's much more to it than I've

been able to say -- Kerouac, Billie Holiday, FLOATING BEAR, the Cedar Bar,

all floating in the river of time. As it flows into the unknown 90s I'm

taking Hettie Jones with me. I want her on my team.

db

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 20:01:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac pronunciation

The Beavis & Butthead version:

CARE-uh-whack whack,uh,uh,uh

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:10:53 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Radley-Fascione MD <M.D.Radley-fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Totally Hip kathryn..

In-Reply-To: <199509011641.JAA16037@netcom.netcom.com>

On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Levi Asher wrote:

> > relationship between the music of some 60's rockers and the Beats. I offer

> > you the following:

> > Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, R. Waters

and

> > the list goes on.

>

> Got all the others, but would you explain Page & Plant please?

k

Also add the creative genius of ROY HARPER Britain's greatest lyricist

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:56:33 GMT-0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Erich Noriega Gutierrez <perdomo@NEXT-HGO.HGO.ITESM.MX>

Hipsters:

Does anyone knows something about yage drug that burrows used?

regards from aztlan

erich.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 03:36:59 +0200

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: yage

In-Reply-To: <9509082056.AA02511@next-hgo.hgo.itesm.mx> (message from Erich

Noriega Gutierrez on Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:56:33 GMT-0600)

> From: Erich Noriega Gutierrez <perdomo@NEXT-HGO.HGO.ITESM.MX>

> Hipsters:

> Does anyone knows something about yage drug that burrows used?

> regards from aztlan

My God, you're in Mexico and you're asking _us_?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 18:52:38 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Lowell Celebrates . . .

Mark Hemenway,

I sent a message to your dharma Beat e-mail address but it came back

undeliverable. Please get in touch with me and let me know if you have a

different e-mail address.

Thanks,

dan_barth@redwoodfn.org

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 14:21:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "F. David Horn" <hornfd@WESTMINSTER.EDU>

Subject: Read Receipt

Your message of Fri Sep 08 1995 14:56:33 -0600

was read on Sun Sep 10 1995 14:21:05 -0400.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 21:00:28 -0400

Reply-To: tb@gromit.ping.at

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas Brandstetter <tb@GROMIT.PING.AT>

Subject: Unknown

> Does anyone knows something about yage drug that

> burrows used?

yage (bannisteria caapi) is a vine that grows in south america...prepared it's h

allucinogenic and it's also said that it is telepathic but seems to have

some nasty side effects...shit i haven't got my copy of naked lunch at home,

there is an appendix on these things...

anyway, read "the yage letters", a collection of letters burroughs wrote to gins

berg while searching yage.

and the interzone-chapter in naked lunch was writen under the influence of yage.

thomas

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:06:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Dharma beat email change

For those interested, Dharma beat #5 is in production now and should be in

the mail in a week or so. This issue will have a newly discovered, never

before published piece by Jack Kerouac. If you are not subscribed- single

copies are $2.50, two copy subscription is $5.00.

The "staff" of Dharma beat have all cancelled their AOL service so we have

new email addresses. You can reach me at home

mhemenway@igc.apc.org

or at work

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

If your message is urgent, I check my work mail more often than my home

stuff.

Thanks.

Mark Hemenway

Co-editor, Dharma beat

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:32:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:56:33 GMT-0600 from

<perdomo@NEXT-HGO.HGO.ITESM.MX>

On Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:56:33 GMT-0600 Erich Noriega Gutierrez said:

>Hipsters:

>

>Does anyone knows something about yage drug that burrows used?

>

>

>regards from aztlan

>

>erich.

See "The Yage Letters" by Burroughs and Ginsberg.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:57:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: YAGE (fwd)

i asked a friend about yage...

> Found some info:

>

> YAGE (Pronounced ya-hee; also called ayahuasca.) Banusteriopsis

> caapi. Family Malpighiaceae.

>

> Material: Lower parts of stem from vine found in Amazon and

> Orinoco basins of South America.

>

> Usage: Stem is pounded in mortar, usually with other local

> psychoactive materials (mostly solanaceous plants), boiled in

> just enough water 2-24 hours, strained, reduced to 1/10 volume, 4

> oz cup is drunk by natives. Other should start with 1/3 this

> amount.

>

> Active Constituents: Harmine, harmaline, harmalol and

> tetrahydroharmine. Approximetely 500 mg total alkaloids per 4 oz.

> cup prepared as above.

>

> Effects: Trembling within a few minutes followed by perspiration

> and physical stimulation for 10-15 minutes, then calm with mental

> clouding, hallucination, increased color, blue-violet shades,

> size changes, and improved night vision. Harmala alkaloids are

> short-term MAO inhibitors.

>

> Contraindications: See harmine et al.

>

> Supplier: No local sourse of yage. See harmine et al (EoI: See my

> notes at end under Suppliers..)

peace

kristen

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:43:26 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Dharma beat Address

Dan Terkla was kind enough to point out that I failed to give an address

for Dharma beat orders. Here it is:

The Jack Kerouac subterranean Information Society

Box 1753

Lowell, MA 01853-1753

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 18:07:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

Subject: CD-Romnibus -Reply

Comments: To: gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU

Comments: cc: mindmotion@aol.com

A tardy response to this query, largely echoing Grant Kornberg's of last week.

Penguin will publish the CD-ROM at the end of this month--it is at the

manufacturer now. The suggested retail price is $49.95, and it will be

available in book and computer stores. I'll be sure to post to this list when

it ships.

For a preview, browse the Penguin Web site at:

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/multimedia.html

Thanks for your interest.

Best,

Julie Hansen

Penguin Books

>>>>>>>>>>

Just wondering. Has anyone actually seen the Jack kerouac CD romnibus.

If so how much are they asking and any other coments.

<<<<<<<<<<

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 21:24:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: BeatDataBase

Here is a more formal proposal for the data base that I mentioned a week or

so ago. I am open to any insights that people might have and want to thank

those who have already given me their ideas.

Beat Data Base (BDB)

Proposal: A database which tracks the evolution of the avant-

garde over the last 50 years or so. The Beats would be central

to this effort, but other movements of the period would be

included: San Francisco Renaissance, New York School and Black

Mountain would be chief among them -- other figures and

personalities who may not belong to a school or a movement per se

would also be included.

Ultimately the data base could be expanded to encompass the last

150 years or so which constitute the modern period. Tracing the

development of the Beats back through this period and beyond to

Blake etc.

Software: Microsoft Access 2.0

Structure: Data Tables as follows

1) Writers - basic information on each individual

2) Movements - attributes of each movement or

school of thought

3) Works - major works by each writer

4) Publications - important periodicals that

published the Beats and others

5) Events - Special events and incidents

Relational Tables

1) Writers/Movements - Member_of

2) Writers/Works - Wrote

3) Writers/Publications - Wrote_for

4) Writers/Events - Present_at

5) Writers/Writers - Influenced_by (This would

be more appropriate after more writers were

added from the earlier periods)

For those who might not be familiar with relational data bases --

how a relational data base works is that the data tables contain

the raw information for each area of interest. On each data

table there is an ID number for that entry in the table, in other

words every writer, movement, work, publication and event would

have its own unique number. The relational tables consist only

of these ID numbers, and by themselves would provide very little

information. For example, if Jack Kerouac is writer 1 and the

Beats are movement 1 then the two fields to represent him as a

Beat would be the row 1,1 in the table Member_of. Another

writer, let's say Robert Duncan, might have the ID number 5 and

be considered to be a member of San Francisco Renaissance 2 and

Black Mountain 3. There would be two rows in the Member_of Table

to represent this 5,2 and 5,3. This is a more "robust" way of

designing the data base than having the movement listed in the

same table with the writer. The relational tables above are

representative of what could be a much larger and complex set of

relationships. They could include such relationships as:

Friend_Of, Enemy_Of, Had_Affair_With, Had_Affair_with_Spouse,

etc.

This is meant to be a prototype that could be expanded in scope

and in time. Any suggestions as to what the data tables should

contain would be greatly appreciated. I am also trying to map

out how to capture themes and philosophies. Perhaps a separate

table with the most common philosophical stances would be

helpful.

Queries will then be developed which provide the link between the

data tables and the relational tables. A query might for example

ask who was Present_At the Six Gallery reading of Howl. Let's

say this is event 1. The data base would take all the ID numbers

of people at the reading then go back to their data table and

find the name field and print this out. The programmer has to

make sure that the proper information has been provided to allow

the computer to make these logical linkages.

But after all the above has been done, there will be plenty of

work assembling the data into all the data tables and then

properly accounting for all the relationships that are deemed

relevant. I am going to need the help of the Cyber-Beat

community.

This will be a long process, but hopefully working together we

can build an interesting data base that will be valuable to all.

Perry M. Lindstrom

LindLitGrp@AOL.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:35:19 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Million title catalog

In-Reply-To: <950911212418_16699420@emout05.mail.aol.com>

I stumbled across this today....million title catalog....and did searches

on Kerouac, Corso, Ferlinghetti, etc. and found lots of interesting stuff.

The URL is: http://www.amazon.com/

I have no connection with this company. Worth a look.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:00:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rick Prelinger <footage@PANIX.COM>

Subject: Youth Rebellion in the 1950s

Comments: To: h-amstdy@msu.edu, archives@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu, h-film@msu.edu,

screen-l@ua1vm.ua.edu, h-urban@uicvm.cc.uic.edu, amia-l@UKCC.UKY.EDU

I am trying to locate actuality footage on the writer Jack Kerouac and

"beat" culture -- artists, filmmakers, jazz musicians, poets, performers,

writers and their underground audience from 1944-1960. In addition, I'm

interested in film, photographs and audio recordings of the cities and

meeting spots in which they lived and flourished (New York, San Francisco,

Denver, Orlando and Mexico City). Especially interested in images of New

York bars (e.g., White Horse, Cedar Bar and San Remo); Columbia

University and the New School; and the North Beach scene in San Francisco.

In addition, I am seeking footage of the same time period relating to

Elvis Presley and Memphis -- the crossroads of music and musicians that

led to the rise of rock and roll. Subjects include Beale Street, record

producer Sam Phillips (Sun Records); WDIA radio disk jockeys Dewey

Phillips, B.B. King and Rufus Thomas.

Rick Prelinger is research consultant on this project; Megan McShea is

handling archival research.

Any help or leads would be appreciated; please excuse crossposting.

Ron Mann

Sphinx Productions, Toronto

mann@voyagerco.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:41:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Gatta <jgatta@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Youth Rebellion in the 1950s

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950912115231.17279A-100000@panix.com> from "Rick

Prelinger" at Sep 12, 95 12:00:24 pm

you might want to try to find a copy-- although i hear it's

pretty impossible-- of a film which kerouac, ginsberg, and burroughs did

together called "Pull My Daisy." a very worthwhile film written and

acted by the three, and narrated by kerouac.

jim.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:27:43 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Youth Rebellion in the 1950s

In-Reply-To: <199509121641.MAA11458@mail1.sas.upenn.edu>

James Gatta <jgatta@SAS.UPENN.EDU> writes:

> you might want to try to find a copy-- although i hear it's

> pretty impossible-- of a film which kerouac, ginsberg, and burroughs did

> together called "Pull My Daisy." a very worthwhile film written and

> acted by the three, and narrated by kerouac.

It's been a few years since I saw this one. It's based upon a true

event, yet for some reason one of the stars and the location is

unidentified. It was Neal Cassady, of course, and the story evolved

from a visit of a local minister and his wife to the Monte Sereno house

where the Cassadys lived while Ginsberg and Corso were there. I can

remember the preacher man on film sitting stiffly in the parlor with his

prim wife beside until a smiling Ginsberg wedged in between. Corso

following the holy man around with theological questions, `Is dinner

holy? Is baseball holy? Is rain holy? Is love holy? Is three AM

holy?'

There's a confrontation between Neal and his wife, and she slaps him.

This is one of the events in the canon I'd sure like to know the history

of. Kerouac was not the most accurate chronicler of internal happenings

of the Cassady family. The boys escape at the end from the wrathful

Mother Goddess, which is a common Beat theme.

Trying to think of the name for the Neal character. There was even

a bit of Neal playing tenor, which he planned to take up in those

years. It looks like just antic silliness on film, but it's

practically a documentary, according to my memory of how Carolyn

Cassady related the time...

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 11:13:53 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: re Pull My Daisy

Concerning Pull My Daisy. It did not involve Burroughs. It was based

on a Kerouac play called the Beat Generation. Coincidentally I was

recently looking at LitKicks in the Beat movie page and Levi wrote that

he hadn't seen Pull My Daisy and if anyone had to write him. So Last week

I sent him this message about the film. I think it is complemented well

by Tim Bowden's previous post.

I saw Pull My Daisy years ago at the Pacific Film Archive in Berkeley.

It was quite good. It started with a jazz song of Pull My Daisy the poem

with a hepchick beatnniky voiced (beatnik as opposed to beat) woman singing.

It remindes me of the Dobie Gillis Beatniky music. The film had Corso playing

Kerouac, Ginsberg as himself and an actor (Larry Rivers?) playing Cassidy and

an actress playing Carolyn Cassidy and one more charecter who played a minister.

Maybe there was another character but I don't remember.

The plot concerned the minister coming to dinner at the Cassidys' with Ginsberg

and Corso there also. They sidled up to him real close on the couch and kept

asking religious type questions like "is baseball holy?" But the thing that

made this movie unique and enjoyable is that the actors themselves weren't

talking, it was all kerouac. He narrated the film as we watched the

characters. He'd say something like "And there's Irwin garden..." So the only

voice we ever heard was Kerouac's. When the characters spoke it was kerouac

saying it as part of the narration. When the Cassidy character got frustrated

and hit a hanging light, he mouthed "Aw" as kerouac said it and so forth. It

really was quite fun and was truly a Jack kerouac movie in that his narration

and playing all the roles as narrator made the movie what it was. Of course

using Ginsberg and Corso gave it the real deal feel also rather than having

some actors play the role. I think seeing them in this movie gives illustration

of how they (Corso, Ginsberg and Orlovsky) are portrayed in Desolation Angels.

It was funny too. At one point the Cassidy

character pulled out a saxophone and started playing jazz. I think that in the

early fifties when Kerouac and Cassidy were both trying to develop their

writing, Cassidy writinng First Third, Kerouac writing Visions of Cody and

others, Cassady tried to learn sax also because he felt that writing wasn't

going to do it for him in expressing his insides the way writing worked for

Kerouac. So he tried to take up sax as an alternative oulet for his artistic

expression. That's where the saxophone scene must have come from.

But overall quite a good movie. It was short, only 20 minutes or so I think.

I don't know where it would be shown now or where it would be available for

renting. I was lucky in that the PFA was doing a series on experimental films

and included it in the series and I happended to read in the paper that it was

showing. It's too bad it is not readily accessable to all.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:23:01 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Re: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.810929633.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

I used two have 2 copies of the book Pull my Daisy. One I gave to the

photographer Robert Frank and the other I sold. Both were BIG mistakes.

Robert Frank came to Saskatoon a few years and showed the film. I'd also

seen it a couple of times in London _years_ ago!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:36:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: Youth Rebellion in the 1950s

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:41:53 EDT

Is "Pull My Daisy" even _available_ in video? Perhaps the folks from

Water Row would know...

Jim S

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:49:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gerry Rouff <rouffj@UCS.ORST.EDU>

Subject: Re: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.810929633.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

Hi all:

don't forget that Pull My Daisy was filmed by Robert Frank. Also

according to "Jack's Book" [edited by Barry Gifford] Kerouac

ad-libbed the dialogue.

regards

gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:09:21 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Pull My Daisy

Pull My Daisy turns up frequently at film festivals around NYC. It was

screenedat a recent Kerouac conference at NYU and will be part of "Beat

Culture and the New America: 1950-1963" which opens at the Whitney on

November 9. For more information, see Meg Wolitzer's article in the New

York Times, Sunday, Sept. 11, 1995.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:56:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Bauman <ta001@AIX1.UCOK.EDU>

Subject: Academic treatment of the Beats

In-Reply-To: <12SEP95.16849810.0064.MUSIC@NMU.EDU>

Question: Should the biographical history of the author continue to be

the primary focus of Beat criticism? I refer primarily to Kerouac, but

Ginsberg and Burroughs also suffer (whoops... have I just revealed my

bias?) from an overabundance of biographical application, perhaps keeping

their works from being considered in a more scholarly light.

Just another random thought.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:58:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Blake List?

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.810929633.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Sep 12, 95 11:13:53 am

Dear fellow BEAT-L subscribers--

Does anyone know if a Blake mailing list exists? Yesterday I read a

message on a different list that included "blake-l@albion.com.bitnet" as

one of its cross-posted addresses. I tried a query to the

"albion.com.bitnet" address, but got a message back that said my mail

was undeliverable (if I were more of a Net whiz, I probably could figure

out how to make the message "deliverable"). Thanks in advance.

Tony

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:02:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Pull my diasy?

Or whatever the title of this play they are talking about. I was just

wondering if this reading it sounds like is not included on the Box set

of Jack Kerouac recordings that I have seen in stores. Unfortunately I do

not have a copy so I don't know.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 13:16:41 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.810929633.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> writes:

> I saw Pull My Daisy years ago at the Pacific Film Archive in Berkeley.

That may have been the very site I saw it myself! It would've been in

the seventies, though.

Now, I'm going out into the vague reaches of memory...my own recollection

is from a huge stack of letters photocopied from the U of Texas collection;

the authors Kerouac, Cassady, Burroughs, and Ginsberg, with bit parts

from Holmes and assorted others, and with extended remarks from Carolyn

Cassady. My recall, with that caveat, is that Pull My Daisy was a

group chorus, with all the boys over time contributing a line, possibly

even over years and through the mails. It would run something like:

Pull my daisy

tug my chain

haul my boulder

drip my rain

..and on. The poem does exist separately; I don't know where or in

what form. (The above, of course, is but a parody, if such be possible.)

But the movie is one fix (and the unfortunate _Heart Beat_ is another)

on a phenomena experienced by the Cassadys in Monte Sereno, near San

Jose, CA - that being the juxtaposition of the studied underclass, in

the flavor of the Cassadys, with the conventional neighborhood. Common

Dostoyevskian Beat theme.

See, the Cassadys moved to Monte Sereno in the late fifties, into a

little frame one-storey three-bedroom ranchito hacienda in the woods

above Los Gatos. Time ticked a realtors' heaven all about them; it

became quite a swank neighborhood. If you drive by there today, you

will behold an upscale vicinity indeed. Some of the tales I have heard

from those days hinge on just that dynamic; a tire recapper/ parking

lot attendant/railroad spike and his family amidst retired admirals and

CEOs. The holy visit explored in _Pull My Daisy_ is just one of

the interesting encounters in Monte Sereno over that era.

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:16:43 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Re: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950912124620.17992A-100000@ucs.orst.edu>

Just found this at the U of Lowell:

AUTHOR: David Amram Quartet.

TITLE: LIVE at Musikfest! sound recording / David Amram Quartet.

PUBLICATION: Putnam Valley, N.Y. : New Chamber Music Recordings, p1990.

DESCRIPTION: 1 sound disc (65 min.) : digital ; 4 3/4 in.

NOTES: David Amram Quartet ; with special guest Paquito de Rivera.

NOTES: Music arranged by David Amram.

NOTES: Musikfest Montuno / Amram (7:55) -- Lover man / Davis ;

Ramirez ; Sherman (8:27) -- Take the "A" train / Strayhorn

(8:09) -- Pull my daisy / Amram ; Cassady ; Ginsburg ;

Kerouac (6:35) -- Saint Thomas / Rollins (6:06) --

Summertime / G. & I. Gershwin (6:05) -- Tennessee waltz /

King ; Stewart (6:02) -- Red River valley / trad. (5:09)

-- Blue Monk / Monk (8:41).

NOTES: Recorded at Musikfest, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, August 22, 1988 and

August 21, 1989.

SUBJECT: Jazz.

ADDED ENTRY: Amram, David.

ADDED ENTRY: D'Rivera, Paquito, 1948-

ADDED ENTRY: Musikfest Montuno.

ADDED ENTRY: Lover man.

ADDED ENTRY: Take the "A" train.

ADDED ENTRY: Pull my daisy.

ADDED ENTRY: Saint Thomas.

ADDED ENTRY: Summertime.

ADDED ENTRY: Tennessee waltz.

ADDED ENTRY: Red River valley.

ADDED ENTRY: Blue Monk.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:33:21 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Re: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: <iu1BBD1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org>

Found at UC Berkeley:

4. Hanover Records

Kerouac, Jack, 1922-1969.

Pull my daisy : the soundtrack. [Phonotape]

Hanover, West Germany : Hanover Records, 1986.

Bancroft Phonotape 1795 C

Non-circulating; may be used only in The Bancroft Library.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:41:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy

Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:09:21 EDT from

<WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:09:21 EDT Bill Gargan said:

>Pull My Daisy turns up frequently at film festivals around NYC. It was

>screenedat a recent Kerouac conference at NYU and will be part of "Beat

>Culture and the New America: 1950-1963" which opens at the Whitney on

>November 9. For more information, see Meg Wolitzer's article in the New

>York Times, Sunday, Sept. 11, 1995.

For more information, see my "The Making (and Unmaking) of Pull My

Daisy," Film History 2.3 (1988): 185-205, or, for a shorter,

alternative version, "'Oh, Those Pull My Daisy Days,'" Moody

Street Irregulars 22-23 (Winter 1989-90): 4-10. For even more,

find my Ph.D. dissertation, "The Beat Generation and the New

American Cinema, 1956-60," Northwestern University, 1984.

Just to be momentarily immodest.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 18:00:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.950912155326.59797A-100000@aix1.ucok.edu> from

"Scott Bauman" at Sep 12, 95 03:56:29 pm

Scott Bauman writes:

> Question: Should the biographical history of the author continue to be

> the primary focus of Beat criticism? I refer primarily to Kerouac, but

> Ginsberg and Burroughs also suffer (whoops... have I just revealed my

> bias?) from an overabundance of biographical application, perhaps keeping

> their works from being considered in a more scholarly light.

Scott--

I love the Beats--and I share your bias. I just finished

teaching Contemporary Poetry this summer, and I had difficulty working

to help some students take biographical detail *with them* into textual

and historical explorations of Beat poetry.

We also had this trouble with many other post-WW2 poets:

students seeing for the first time the biographies of Lowell, Plath,

Berryman, Rich, Sexton, Baraka, Bukowski, Lorde, et. al. (to name only

the first eight at the top of my head) found biographical information so

powerful that they occasionally got lost in it. The willingness to get

lost is crucial, to a certain extent. For some, though, the trouble

came when I tried to use their interests in biography as a springboard

toward looking at the poems themselves.

At any rate, my students seemed to have the most difficulty

moving from biography to poetry (or back and forth between the two) in

our work with Ginsberg and Kerouac. Of course, they had lots of models

for their resistance to extend biographical material into the poetry--

much of what they see published in mainstream media outlets examines the

media presence of the Beats at the expense of Beat literature itself. I

directed them to useful scholarly sources, but it seems to me that too

many scholars hold the same resistances as do mainstream media toward

textual/historical analysis.

I do not mean to suggest (nor, I think, does Scott) that textual

or historical analysis must be the standard against which one measures

the value of literature. I do think, however, that Beat poetry measures

well against this standard, and that this standard enhances the experience

of Beat literature itself.

I recognize I may be overgeneralizing. I would love to hear how

others respond to Scott's question.

Tony

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 18:13:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat DataBase

This is a good idea, and clearly it has been given a lot of thought. The

mechanics of building such a database are admittedly beyond the scope of my

own skills, but this would be my suggestion:

The same functions (linking data, threads, etc.) could also be performed

using an HTML-based archive. (I.E. via the world-wide web) Such an archive,

with links between the various fields, would have the potential advantage of

a graphical interface and would be relatively easier for the average joe (or

josephine) to access and peruse. (Not all of us are sold on Microsoft

platforms, anyway; it seems to me that HTML is a more universal

language-in-the-making.)

Again, I'm a relative neophyte ("Dammit Jim, I'm a poet, not a computer

programmer!"), but now you have my five cents worth (allowing for inflation).

W. Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 18:16:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

I think the issue is that the nature of the work which is frequently

(auto)biographical.

On the other hand it seems to me that the world of academe has applied quite

a bit of scholarship to the movement. But you are right, much of the focus

is ad hominem.

Another possible focus, of course, is the cultural fabric in which the beats

existed.

Here the academic community excels at puffing up...

Catch you later,

Andrew

cosmic@clark.net

>Question: Should the biographical history of the author continue to be

>the primary focus of Beat criticism?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:23:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat DataBase

In-Reply-To: <950912181304_17446577@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "W. Luther Jett"

at Sep 12, 95 06:13:05 pm

> The same functions (linking data, threads, etc.) could also be performed

> using an HTML-based archive. (I.E. via the world-wide web) Such an archive,

Certainly an HTML interface to the database would be ideal. I think a

combination of a database back-end with an HTML surface would be best. In

fact many webmasters are currently looking to employ the power of relational

databases within their websites.

I've been in touch with Perry about this database idea, and would be happy

to provide access through my website -- provided that somebody else does

all the work building the database.

> Again, I'm a relative neophyte ("Dammit Jim, I'm a poet, not a computer

> programmer!"), but now you have my five cents worth (allowing for inflation).

Your five cents have been well spent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 19:22:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re re Pull my Daisy

The complete (?) text of "Pull My Daisy" (the poem) can be found on pages 3-5

of "Scattered Poems" by Jack Kerouac (City Lights, 1971). Kerouac, Ginsberg,

and Casady are credited as the authors, and the date of composition is given

as 1948-1950? (sic).

"Pull my daisy

"tip my cup

"all my doors are open

"Cut my thoughts

"for coconuts

"all my eggs are broken . . . ."

I saw the flick back in the seventies. The poem was set to music - perhaps

that's the David Amram cut cited in someone else's post.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:14:36 GMT+1000

Reply-To: gboland@csu.edu.au

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gerard Boland <GBOLAND@BARTS.MIT.CSU.EDU.AU>

Subject: Re: Pull my Daisy

Comments: cc: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@aol.com>

On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@aol.com> wrote:

The complete (?) text of "Pull My Daisy" (the poem) can be found on

pages 3-5 of "Scattered Poems" by Jack Kerouac (City Lights, 1971).

Kerouac, Ginsberg,and Casady are credited as the authors, and the date

of composition is given as 1948-1950? (sic).

"Pull my daisy

"tip my cup

"all my doors are open

"Cut my thoughts

"for coconuts

"all my eggs are broken . . . ."

I saw the flick back in the seventies. The poem was set to music -

perhapsthat's the David Amram cut cited in someone else's post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~oo0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hiya "W. Luther Jett & All:

Well, sort of... these are the versions of the poem(s) which were

developed over several years...examples of those guys goofing

together...

But the text of the film is something altogether different and quite

masterful in the narrative effort by JK.

I saw it in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne in 1982... was the first time that I

heard JK's voice... I was really impressed by the expressive quality of

his voice (a GREAT storyteller!) 11 yrs later got the CD set but alas

his work on Pull My Daisy wasn't on them.

The Amram Quintet (with Lynn Sheffield singing) version of one of the

poems can be heard on "The Beat Generation" CD set, v. 2., I beleive

this is the version that you also hear at the beginning and/or end of

the film.

On the other thread re: Academia

Much of the problem with the literary criticism of the time (and

continuing for many years) was the effete and snivelling, high culture

BS of "The New Criticism" and their effort to separate the author &

zeitgeist from the work under consideration. They could understand

Kerouac not one whit... a complete mismatch of aesthetic tastes and

concerns... fuelled as well by post-war/Cold War paranoia and American

triumphalist conformity to its own propaganda...

And they failed to see the tenderness of his vision of America, and how

he continued the threads spun out by Whitman, London, Wolfe, etc... the

vision of bums and "marginals" didn't fit their vision of America and

what American literature should be about.

Yow! Don't get me started! Ha! Woooo! Woof!

And the other thread re: Database

Bravo... I think that Levi Asher's suggestion makes the most sense for

availability and easy of access.

And finally... who's gonna report on the conference/celebration in

Lowell?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:37:02 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: Pull my diasy?

Jack's great ad-lib dialog for this soundtrack is NOT on the RHino

anthology of Kerouac's works (which is still a priceless great recording!)

cheers,

Bruce

----------

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Pull my diasy?

Date: Tuesday, September 12, 1995 4:02PM

Or whatever the title of this play they are talking about. I was just

wondering if this reading it sounds like is not included on the Box set

of Jack Kerouac recordings that I have seen in stores. Unfortunately I do

not have a copy so I don't know.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:33:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: No Subject

not much really...hes pretty vague....its called bannisteria cappi

(harmaline,telepathine...)you may want to try burroughs book "the yage

letters"

other than that...its a plant (the root of) that grows in south

america....burroughs said that the indians there knew where to find it...they

used it as a means to contact the spirits.....bill thought it may save his

life...beat heroin....a wonderdrug---soma so to speak.

yage is mentioned in almost all of bills work...the last i read it in was

"queer".

if you find out more let me know!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:40:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dharma beat email change

how do i send you the money???!!! i want a copy please!!!

drbenway@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:37:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

I can understand the problems you are dealing with in trying to make people

see the actual works of KEROUAC, GINSBERG, BURROUGHS, HOLMES. I myself

have tried to get people to read them in order that they might see this

vibrant and truly awesome style of dealing with writing. However people

always seem to get stuck on the lives of the authors and cant see the works

as separate entities.

But I can see how this problem arises, especially with KEROUAC, IN THat

the works seem to be so biographical that the lifestyle either intrigues

you or turns you away and there for the question of the actual life always

comes up. So, i think it is important that people do indeed know the

biographical information because it helps you to see why they wrote what

they wrote.

That is why I have taken a haitus from reading all of Kerouacs works until

I read Ann Charters book of selected Letters. All of these letters in the

book occur before the publication of On The Road and therefore give a very

good light unto Kerouacs state of mind.

Course thats just my opinion, maybe Im just stuck in a corner like Holmes.

Nick Herren

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 06:48:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: More on the Database

Glad to see the interest in making this available. I would certainly be

delighted to make this available through Levi's web site. Now all we need is

some data -- actually a lot of data! Are there any undergrads or grads out

there who want to take this on as a project? No money, but a lot of credit.

Perry Lindstrom

LindLitGrp@AOL.com

Arlington,VA

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:21:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: re Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:16:41 EDT

There is an incredible reading of Pull My Daisy on the Ginsberg box

set.By the third verse, he really gets rolling with the rhythm, and

manages to get the crowd's spirit attached. It is presented in a longer

form than I ever remember reading it... and is quite boisterous!

Tim -- if you'd like a copy of this, you know how to get in touch with

me!

Jim S.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:30:36 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Dharma beat subscriptions

To subscribe ($5.00) or purchase a single copy ($2.00), of Dharma beat

send check or cash to:

The Jack Kerouac subterranean Information Society

Box 1753

Lowell, MA 01852

Thanks.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:31:39 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Dharma beat zip

Sorry, make that Lowell, MA <<01853>> .

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:56:30 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Pull my Daisy

Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:14:36 GMT+1000 from

<GBOLAND@BARTS.MIT.CSU.EDU.AU>

On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:14:36 GMT+1000 Gerard Boland said:

>

>The Amram Quintet (with Lynn Sheffield singing) version of one of the

>poems can be heard on "The Beat Generation" CD set, v. 2., I beleive

>this is the version that you also hear at the beginning and/or end of

>the film.

Not exactly. This is a rerecording, first released (I believe) on

Amram's LP No More Walls. The original track was sung by Anita Ellis.

Apart from her own recording and performances on stage and on radio,

she is noted for having dubbed singing voices for Hollywood movie stars.

Along this line, she's probably best known for the singing voice of

Rita Hayworth in Gilda.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:46:04 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:41:18 EDT from

<ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Blaine, if your dissertation is available through UMI, you might include the or

der number in case people wish to purchase.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:27:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sherry Linkon <sjlinkon@CC.YSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

Comments: To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <199509122200.SAA20079@lynx.dac.neu.edu>

I'm starting a class on 50s lit next week, and I hope to generate some

discussion about this very point. My students tend to love the Beats,

while I am (horrors) ambivalent about them, especially on biographical

grounds. In literary terms, they're clearly important and intriguing,

and I want to move my students past their hero-worship to consider how a

writer's image intersects with his/her work. Examining the Beats in the

context of the times will help with this -- at least, that's my hope.

Sherry Linkon

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:07:48 GMT+1000

Reply-To: gboland@csu.edu.au

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gerard Boland <GBOLAND@BARTS.MIT.CSU.EDU.AU>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

Just the other day, Sherry Linkon wrote:

>I'm starting a class on 50s lit next week, and I hope to generate some

>discussion about this very point. My students tend to love the Beats,

>while I am (horrors) ambivalent about them, especially on biographical

>grounds. In literary terms, they're clearly important and intriguing,

>and I want to move my students past their hero-worship to consider how

>a writer's image intersects with his/her work. Examining the Beats in

>the context of the times will help with this -- at least, that's my

>hope.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~oo0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My advice would be to avoid On The Road... but start with things like

"October in the Railroad Earth" and "Howl"...

Now, what are they talking about? Does this sound like the America that

you know? Sure, R&R was starting to kick along but what was American

society so uptight about? Why was the social conformity such a big deal?

In a real sense,I reckon that one could argue that the beats were the

first post modernists to be published in America [ok, Joyce, etc... but

nevertheless its a good discussion starter] and a big part of the

problem was that the literary critics were all modernists who were

arguing for the "high culture" centre of American society. And the beats

were wailing at the "margins" and scratched open all of the latent

feelings of "cultural cringe" in relation to Europe and (of course) the

presumed & presumptious "centre" of American society.

But back to your class:

I'd also use selections from the CD recordings... on that score don't

miss JK's "The Three Stooges" and especially his reading of "Old Angel

Midnight"...

Find a recording of Ginsberg reading "Howl" and "America" (somebody

please let me know where I too can find this on CD!)...

And most of all, get them to prepare "moved readings" of their favourite

selections... to be rehearsed and read in class and/or your student

union... readings with multiple participants work particurly well...

especially when you can include live music... lots of people have

musical ability and you might consider tapping/taping this!

Best of luck professor sherry!

And just since I'm on line here... here's a snatch of poetry that I

really like from McClure's "Love Me for the Fool I Am (the laughing

angle-imbecile)

Our love is flawed

and swallowed

by the rush of time.

A mindless innocence,

they say,

is crime.

We dance on borrowed feet.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:23:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sherry Linkon <sjlinkon@CC.YSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

Comments: To: Gerard Boland <GBOLAND@BARTS.MIT.CSU.EDU.AU>

In-Reply-To: <3AED8813452@barts.mit.csu.edu.au>

I should have clarified that I have taught this material before, which is

why Ihave some sense of students' responses. One cool "trick" used on

the last round, which positioned the Beats in context with abstract

expressionist painting and jazz and rock and roll, was to show a film of

Jackson Pollock in the act of painting, but with the sound turned off on

the film and replaced by a tape of Ginsburg reading "Howl" and then

Charlie Parker's "Night in Tunisia." The intersection makes clear that

there are rhythmic patterns that link the various artistic genres. I

have students perform readings regularly in all kinds of lit classes -- a

good suggestion, Gerald. Also, one of my students works at the campus

coffee house, where one of his jobs it to arrange the monthly poetry

readings. So for October, he wants to have a Beat Beat (the name of the

coffeehouse is The Beat) Halloween reading, and invite members of the

class and anyone else who's interested to both read Beat lit and dress up

in their best version of Beat garb. The readings are usually accompanied

by jazz, and I assume this one would be, too. Part of me loves this idea

and part of me worries that this is part of that Beat hero-worship, which

may keep people from reading the Beats and their period critically.

We'll see.

Sherry Linkon

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 02:45:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "James D. Barger" <CoolMadman@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Academic treatment of the Beats

Sherry Linkon writes:

>>Part of me loves this idea and part of me worries that this is part of that

Beat hero-worship, which may keep people from reading the Beats and their

period critically.

We'll see.<<

Sure, there's a bit o' hero worship of the Beats in certain circles. But,

what's wrong with an excitement over talent and art? Yeah, it's annoying

when the image of these old and dead artists overshadows their work. Yet,

I'm glad to know that their art is kept alive in any form. I say "worship

whatever you find worthy." As long as you maintain just enough objectivity

to fool people into thinking that you're not totally mad.

The fact is that some of the Beats did lead lives that were extraordinary,

while many other artists lead rather mundane existances. And, in some cases,

Beatnik writers' lives were a form of art in their own right. Certainly, if

all of those stories had been pure fiction, they never would have gained the

level of popularity that they did. Much of their accomplishments would have

been lost to future generations. It is often the reality of their lives --

and the myths -- that pulls 18-year-old kids into bookstores in search of

something beautiful and powerful.

James Barger

Jacksonville, Florida

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:02:54 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

Comments: Originally-From: LisaTMP@aol.com

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: reminder of Dallas beat event

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Please post this to your mailing list if you think it's appropriate--It was

posted earlier this summer, buut it opens next week and wanted to remind

everyone. Thanks very much.

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS:

AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

SCHEDULE OF FALL EVENTS

For press information:

Lisa Taylor, Taylor-Made Press

(214) 943-1099

Revised Aug. 4, 1995

EXHIBIT

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS: AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

AN EXHIBIT OF THE COLOPHON MODERNS COLLECTION

FIRST EDITION BOOKS FROM 1950-1975

SEPT. 20-NOV. 17 AT SMU DEGOLYER LIBRARY, 6404 Hilltop Lane.

The exhibit will be FREE and open to the public Monday-Friday 8:30 a.m.-5

p.m. as well as during special events. Call (214) 768-3225 for more

information. The exhibit of over 60 works, curated by SMU alumna Mary

Courtney, includes first editions by Edward Albee, James Baldwin, Saul

Bellow, Richard Brautigan, Charles Bukowski, William Burroughs, Robert

Creeley, James Dickey, Joan Didion, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg,

Joseph Heller, Robert Kelly, Jack Kerouac, Ken Kesey, Norman Mailer, Larry

McMurtry, Flannery O'Connor, Joyce Carol Oates, Gary Snyder, Kurt Vonnegut,

Anne Waldman and Thomas Wolfe.

OPENING NIGHT CELEBRATION/TALK

Sept. 20 6:30 p.m. DeGolyer Library

6404 Hilltop Lane, SMU Campus. Free, donations accepted.

Opening celebration in honor of charter members and former presidents of the

Friends of SMU Libraries. Decherd Turner will speak on "My Literary Dilemma:

Too Young to be Lost, Too Old to be Beat"

BEAT FILMS

Presented in conjunction with Southwest Film and Video Archives at Greer

Garson Theatre Building third floor, Meadows School of the Arts, SMU Campus.

FREE ADMISSION. Donations accepted.

Sept. 28 7:30 p.m.

Jack Kerouac's Road : Through photographs, archival film footage, interviews

and skillful reconstructions of events, Jack Kerouac's Road traces the life

of this gifted American writer. French with English subtitles.

William S. Burroughs: Commissioner of the Sewers: A portrait of the author

who created Naked Lunch. With his characteristically dry wit and subtle

humor, Burroughs talks about language and other weapons, about the work as a

virus, about death and dreams, about travel in time and space.

Sept. 29 7:30 p.m.

Kerouac: An award winning docu-drama about the King of the Beat Generation,

Jack Kerouac.

OVER

PAGE TWO

SMU

FILMS OF ROBERT FRANK

Presented in conjunction with Dallas Artists Research & Exhibition in the

CineMac at The McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave. $2

for DARE members and

Friends of SMU Libraries; $4 general

Oct. 6-7 8 p.m./ Oct. 8 3 p.m

Pull My Daisy and Energy and How to Get It

Oct. 13-14 at 8 p.m., Oct. 15 at 3 p.m.

This Song for Jack and Hunter

Oct. 20-21 8 p.m., Oct. 22 3 p.m.

Conversations in Vermont and Life Dances On

Oct. 27-28 8 p.m., Oct. 29 3 p.m.

C'est Vrai

MOMENTS WITH THE MODERNS: A READING SERIES

Presented by The Writer's Garret in the Atrium of the Hughes-Trigg Student

Center, SMU. FREE ADMISSION. Donations accepted.

Oct. 5 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: An interactive/dramatic reading

and critique of the works of Jack Kerouac, with emphasis on On the Road.

Mark Hankla will play Jack Kerouac, and Joe Stanco will be "the interviewer"

who corners, crowds, and cajoles him in deeper definition.

Oct. 12 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: An interactive/dramatic reading

and critique of the works of James Baldwin, with emphasis on Go Tell It On

the Mountain. Fred Gardner will play James Baldwin, Glodean Baker-Gardner

will be the interviewer.

Oct. 26 7:30 p.m. REEL/REAL WRITERS: a screening of a Lannan Literary Video,

which features Allen Ginsberg on video, with Joe Stanco live. Encore

performance from The Mac.

EAT TO THE BEAT-DINING

Michele's Coffee Bar & Cafe, 6617 Snider Plaza, will present a benefit night

on Monday, Oct. 2 5-9:30 p.m. for the Friends of the SMU Libraries. Drumming

by Jamal Mohmed. Proceeds will benefit the Friends' organization. Call

691-8164 for reservations.

PANEL DISCUSSION

In celebration of The Southwest Review's 80th Anniversary

'A Literary Overview of the Post War Period"

Thursday, Oct. 19 at 7:30 p.m. FREE.

Hughes-Trigg Student Center Auditorium, SMU campus

The panel will be moderated by Willard Spiegelman, Prof. of Literature at

SMU, with participation by Steven Kellman, Ashbel Smith Professor of

Comparative Literature, UT San Antonio; Jack Myers, Professor of English,

SMU. Additional panelists to be announced.

MORE

PAGE THREE

SMU

MUSIC

Meadows New Music Ensemble

Nov. 8 8 p.m. O'Donnell Lecture Recital Hall SMU Meadows School of the Arts

FREE Improvisational performance of beat poetry and music.

SMU LITERARY FESTIVAL

1995 Student Book Collecting Contest

Awards presentation

Nov. 17 at Hughes Trigg Student Center

All full-time undergraduate and graduate SMU students are eligible to enter

this contest sponsored the Friends of the SMU Libraries. Deadline for

entries is Nov. 1. Display of the winning book collections and a reception

honoring the winners takes place at 6:30 p.m. in DeGolyer Library prior to

the presentation of the awards by the SMU Literary Festival guest author in

the Hughes Trigg Theater. To commemorate the Friends' 25th anniversary, a

special prize will be given to the collection that best establishes the

original Colophon Collection theme.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:13:12 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: October In The Railroad Earth

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:02:54 EDT

Plans are now underway for the second OITRE festival, which will again

be held in the far north Lake Superior 'burb of Marquette, Michigan. An

evening full of readings, music, and peformance, the gathering is

scheduled for October 19th, at The Koffee Haus on North Third Street.

Information can be had by e-mailing jstedman@nmu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:36:13 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vicente Garcia Pineiro <vgarcia@GOLIAT.UGR.ES>

Subject: (fwd) PERU: Medicine Men, Hallucinogens and Neuro-psychiatry

Reciently, some people have asked about yage, ayahuasca, etc.

I think this can be interesting for them.

Vic

>Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive

>Subject: PERU: Medicine Men, Hallucinogens and Neuro-psychiatry

>Followup-To: alt.activism.d

>Date: 31 Aug 1995 23:08:55 GMT

>Organization: PACH

>Lines: 140

>Approved: map@pencil.cs.missouri.edu

>Message-ID: <425fe7$lvs@news.missouri.edu>

>NNTP-Posting-Host: pencil.cs.missouri.edu

>/** ppn.peru: 201.0 **/

>** Topic: IPS: PERU: Medicine Men, Hallucinogens and Neuro-psychiatry **

>** Written 4:04 PM Aug 19, 1995 by newsdesk in cdp:ppn.peru **

> Copyright 1995 InterPress Service, all rights reserved.

> Worldwide distribution via the APC networks.

>

> *** 16-Aug-95 ***

>

>Title: PERU: Medicine Men, Hallucinogens and Neuro-psychiatry

>

>by Abraham Lama

>

>LIMA, Aug 16 (IPS) - When Peruvian medicine men and their patients

>drink the juice of the ''san pedro'' cactus they have astonishing

>visions which are interpreted as messages and answers by the

>shaman.

>

>A similar effect is achieved by drinking the ''ayahuasca''

>(rope of the dead), a vine from the Amazon forest taken in

>sessions where darkness, whistles, chanting in strange tongues and

>the sound of rhythmically shaken seeds create a collective

>emotional atmosphere.

>

>Hallucinogens extracted from the ''san pedro'' cactus (written

>without capital letters so as not to offend the saint) and the

>''ayahuasca'' are ritual tools of Peruvian shamans.

>

>The healer considers his activity sacred. The hallucinations he

>has are seen as bridges between earthly reality and the heavenly

>plane.

>

>Hallucinogens have been used for magical therapy since ancient

>times in Peru. Representations of the process can be seen in

>textiles and a mural from the Chavin temple in Huantar.

>

>Historian and Catholic Priest Bernabe Cobo who arrived with the

>conquering Spanish soldiers, reported the use of the ''achuma''

>cactus by the original population.

>

>''It is the plant through which the devil possesses the Indians

>of Peru...Those who drink the juice lose their reason and are left

>as though dead, transported by this drink they dream 1,000

>extravagances and believe them as though they were true,'' he

>wrote.

>

>''The juice can be used against burning kidneys and a small

>quantity will ease a fever, jaundice and burning urine,'' he

>added. Italian anthropologist and archaeologist Mario Polia

>travelled the mountain and coastal provinces of northern Peru for

>20 years excavating and collecting oral history.

>

>In his opinion, Christianity has only added a gloss on

>continuing pagan myths and practices.

>

>Polia said the healers claim the spirit of the cactus takes

>them to the ''gardens of Manco Capac'', the first healer who

>brought medicinal knowledge to the Incas. That is where the first

>power comes from, but all the action is taken in the name of the

>Christian God.

>

>This fusion of two religious roots explains why the healers'

>''tables'' - which are often simply a rug on the ground - have

>pre-Colombian articles alongside Catholic relics.

>

>The origin of the name ''san pedro'' is explained in many ways.

>One of the stories goes that ''Jesus played a trick on Saint Peter

>one time by hiding his keys to heaven.''

>

>''Saint Peter tired himself out looking all over the

>countryside for the lost keys, and finally, worn out and hungry he

>sat down under a cactus and chewed on one of its roots which

>helped him to ''see'' where the keys were. Jesus said, ''How did

>you find them?'' and Saint Peter answered, ''I ate this cactus,''

>and Jesus said, ''With this you can heal and you can see.''''

>

>The Peruvian medicine men have provided much information on

>medicinal plants to modern medicine, ranging from Quinnine to

>''una de gato'' (cat's claw), which strengthens the immune system

>and may be used to treat AIDS in future.

>

>Neuro-psychiatrist Fernando Cavieses, leading researcher into

>Peruvian traditional medicine and herbalism, explained that the

>healers and doctors both live within the same social space.

>

>''As a result of their training, aims, ideology and respective

>interests, the professions are separate. There is often conflict

>between them, but there have also been exchanges which have

>benefitted both,'' he said.

>

>Cavieses said that the cactus product was very helpful in the

>field of neuropsychiatry and in the modern theory of neuro-

>transmitters.

>

>''The extract, taken from the ''san pedro'' cactus, was the

>first pure alkaloid hallucinogen to be studied scientifically, and

>this experimentation opened up new ground for modern

>psychopharmology,'' said Cavieses.

>

>Researchers studying shamanism worldwide have pointed out the

>importance of the rhythm of the sessions, which goes much further

>than a simple creation of atmosphere.

>

>''The drumming, the sound of the maracas or the sound of any

>instrument which produces and maintains a rhythm at the beginning

>of a shamanism session constitutes one of the preliminary

>conditions of the ecstatic journey,'' said Cavieses.

>

>''The healer says it is to call the spirits. But its real

>effect, though the shaman is not aware, is the creation of a

>biological rhythm which encourages the trance state he wants to

>cause. It is the rationalisation of the irrational,'' he said.

>

>In the words of a Siberian shaman quoted by anthropologist W.D.

>Bogoras, ''If you go out into the wilderness. You will find a

>drum. If you start to beat it you will see the whole world.''

>(END/IPS/tra-so/al/ag/sm/95)

>

>

>Origin: Amsterdam/PERU/

> ----

>

> [c] 1995, InterPress Third World News Agency (IPS)

> All rights reserved

>

> May not be reproduced, reprinted or posted to any system or

> service outside of the APC networks, without specific

> permission from IPS. This limitation includes distribution

> via Usenet News, bulletin board systems, mailing lists,

> print media and broadcast. For information about cross-

> posting, send a message to <ips-info@igc.apc.org>. For

> information about print or broadcast reproduction please

> contact the IPS coordinator at <ipsrom@gn.apc.org>.

>

>** End of text from cdp:ppn.peru **

>

>***************************************************************************

>This material came from PeaceNet, a non-profit progressive networking

>service. For more information, send a message to peacenet-info@igc.apc.org

>***************************************************************************

>

>

>--

> == Daniel Davidson ==

> ** Don't hit. Clean your mess **

> davidson@sfsu.edu

>

> It is considered appropriate to sustain conditions

> which are against the best interests of almost everyone.

>

>

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=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 00:39:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Pull my Daisy

On text of poem thread. Original publication was in 1950 under AG's name as

"Fie My Fum" in NEUROTICA #6, AG's first commercial publication. Text was

Allen's with some rearrangement by JK. Later, the extended text was published

in the book of Pull my Daisy Grove 1961. AG noted some lines of Kerouac's and

one by Cassidy. The both texts are in AG's Gates of Wrath, with a note on

the various Version at the end.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:12:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy

Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:46:04 EDT from

<WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:46:04 EDT Bill Gargan said:

>Blaine, if your dissertation is available through UMI, you might include the or

>der number in case people wish to purchase.

By popular request, the order number is AAC 8423199, and it's available

from University Microfilms International, 300 North Zeeb Road, Ann

Arbor, MI 48106.

The title is "The New American Cinema and the Beat Generation, 1956-1960"

(I think I had it the other way round in my earlier post), written for

Northwestern University and completed in 1984. It includes chapters on

the study of subcultures; the Beat Generation as a subculture; the New

American Cinema as a movement in the US cinematic avant-garde; and

case studies on Jazz on a Summer's Day (Bert Stern's documentary on

the 1958 Newport Jazz Festival), the low-budget feature-length dramas

On the Bowery (Lionel Rogosin, 1956) and Shadows (John Cassavetes, 1959),

and, of course, Pull My Daisy (a 95-page chapter, I'm abashed to note).

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:39:45 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: _Big Sur_, Gutenberg, and us

In-Reply-To: <14SEP95.16437661.0075.MUSIC@NMU.EDU>

Took _Visions of Cody_ off the shelf at the local bookshop, sat down

with it, opened to where the rhapsody begins, chapter 2. Tell me where

there is language that sings like this? Rarely anywhere in English, to

my ear.

But I wonder how many agree. I mean by this, how many regard Kerouac as

a writer, and not just a literary figure? I have to wonder when I see

this area filled up with references to movies, CDs, and whether some rock

star is or isn't truly a Beat.

I'm not suggesting anything about current literacy rates. I'm

suspecting there has always been a more general celebration of Kerouac

the King of the Beats than there have been earnest and ardent readers of

the canon. When I was young, I could mutter `Pick up, man, pick up' or

`forgetful road buddy' and be understood by one or two of those close to

me. When I say, `You know what President Truman said,' how many today

would know what I mean?

And maybe the lack of attention isn't solely with the readers. Take _Big

Sur_. Now, you can read all of Tolstoi and maybe come up with one typo

in the whole of it. That's because it is read closely by editors,

translators, and the public. But look at Chapter 24 of _Sur_, beginning

with line #5:

his pet hawk, of all things, the hawk is black as night

and sits there

Now, that line was blown by the printers the first time around. Know

how I know? Because they removed the linotype - and set the incorrect

copy over in the next page, so that it reads

up, the car even of all thinks, the hawk is black as night

and sits there faster in lieu of rubbing his hands with

beginning about line 22 of page 109 of the Bantam edition.

The printer saw he had `thinks' for `things', I suppose, and removed the

offending type, but dropped it in the same measure into another part of

the text. This was in 1962. And that printer's error remains to this

day, in the most recent quality paperback versions.

If you leave aside some of the silliness and self-indulgence of Kerouac,

his line is easy to follow. I never understood why some thought

_Subterraneans_ a difficult read - it is the exact frenetic and

flavorful pace of someone rapt and eager telling a tale, and it all

rhymes. K is not Joyce, nor Gertrude Stein. He should be read just as

you might listen to a frantic exuberant intricate song from a very able

wordslinger...

But I think the books were not well-read. Oh, I know _Road_ is taught

at schools and often you see it laying about dorms, but I'm not sure

very many souls actually open it anymore. My own personal shibboleth is

this glaring error in _Big Sur_, in existence lo these 33 years and

more...

Tim Bowden

tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org

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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:52:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Big Sur

I'm sorry but I think you are just plain wrong on your interpretation of

Kerouacs writing. Who cares if thinks is written on the 109 th page of

the 216 book instead of thing or if anyone still reads his writing.

The whole point behind his genius is what he had to say. And its not just

about smoking 'tea' and taking benzidrine or drinking himself to death.

How can you read Big Sur and not imagine yourself on that beach or making

that damn in the stream for the water or sitting in a chair with just utter

contempt for all the shit in the society that has gone so wrong. Or read

Dharma Bums and see that the is spelled teh instead of being on top of the

mountain and then running down it or taking to some crazy guy or imagining

just being for one day with someone like Japhy Ryder someone who actually

has still got a little bit of energy and enthusiam for this life instead of

a plentitude of boredom.

Whats the big deal about Joyce anyway. Who wants to write a book that is

utterly incomprehensible. And if you are complaining that Kerouac is un

understandable i suggest you try to read Joyce (who himself is just mimicking

the irish or scottish dialect in my opinion).

Why even read anything if all you are doing is looking for errors. I just

read GO and it has over ten errors itself I am sure because I ACTUALLY DID

READ IT, but I dont care because it actually moved me the passage about

STROFSKY (Ginsberg) and his visions to utter distress.

Ah hell its all just a bunch of shit anyway, why do you care?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:28:57 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Big Sur

In-Reply-To: <01HVB4T79FIE0052OU@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> writes:

> I'm sorry but I think you are just plain wrong on your interpretation of

> Kerouacs writing.

I'm not sorry, but you have badly mangled an effort to interpret the

article you are attempting to follow.

> Who cares if thinks is written on the 109 th page of

> the 216 book instead of thing or if anyone still reads his writing.

> The whole point behind his genius is what he had to say.

Obviously, not enough care, or even notice. Did you? And wouldn't a

concern for what he had to say be assumed from a close reading of the

text?

I agree with Kerouac's own assessment; he was a wordslinger, not an

idea man, and what he had to say was in the diction, and not in the

doings. In fact, _Big Sur_ is the history of a fairly common alcoholic

breakdown, less the prosody. It is the telling, more than the tale.

> ..contempt for all the shit in the society that has gone so wrong.

What has gone wrong in _Big Sur_ is in the author's mind and body. This

wasn't a traditional rage against conformity and compromise, like

_Dharma Bums_.

> Whats the big deal about Joyce anyway. Who wants to write a book that

> is utterly incomprehensible. And if you are complaining that Kerouac

> is un understandable i suggest you try to read Joyce (who himself is

> just mimicking the irish or scottish dialect in my opinion).

(1) My point was exactly the reverse, as I stated quite clearly - in

most cases, Kerouac is eminently comprehensible, even to younger newage

readers, and

(2) I've read Joyce, thanks.

> Why even read anything if all you are doing is looking for errors.

The presence of blatant errors in the text is an indication of the care

that goes into the preparing, and ultimately the reading, of the volume.

And this particular error rears up to a careful reader without the need

to look for it.

It isn't just a typo, it's a complete mangling of the rhythm and sense

of the passage. Now, that strikes to the heart of what is important

about Kerouac. So, what could be more significant than a fowling of the

very essence? You think _Sur_ is just a story about a halcyon time in a

cabin off the beach? It's much closer to Dante (the opening is very

similar, deliberately so - especially when you realize the actual

terrain, which I have walked, is nothing like the fearful hellish

setting of the story) than to a Boekecker guide to the California coast.

Can you imagine a stray line of junk type cast carelessly about in

_The Inferno_?

It is words singing, or it's nothing, son...

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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:15:52 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Visionsof Cody&BigSurstuff

Well now,

I don't know that these discussions are worth getting upset over, but at the

same time I do enjoy and appreciate passion and not to say a good healthy

emotional argument from time to time.

James Joyce's books are not all unintelligible or hard to understand. The

stories in Dubliners and the novel portrait of the artist as young man are

not difficult except in vocabulary and breadth of knowledge presented in these

books. In Ulysses and Finnegans wake his books became much more difficult to

understand as he began his delving into the subconsious. Yet Ulysses is

readable to anyone who can read Visions of Cody. Of course FW then delves into

the unconscious and becomes quite difficult to understand.

Kerouac was influenced heavily by Joyce and in some cases is difficult to read

in a similar manner as Joyce. Visions of Cody and Dr. Sax are probably his

most difficult books to read. I think kerouac considered these two to be

his best works as well. The best example of a difficult to read work by

Kerouac is Old Angel Midnight. It was heavily Wake inspired and Kerouac wrote

that he felt it was a failed attempt. (I read this in the recent letters book-

if anyone wants more detail as to what he said about Old Angel Midnight I will

look it up and present it here).

In Visions of Cody Kerouac shows his Joyce influence by mentioning Gogarty.

Gogarty was Joyce's friend who was the model for Stately Plump Buck Mulligan.

A large part of Visions of Cody as i recall includes such literary allusions

as I think part of the Visions of Cody book was chronicling Kerouacs

development as an artist. The book is multilveled and seeks to ultimately

tell the story of Cody but in doing so he tells his story of his quest to

develop a way to fully embody Cody in print.

Dr. Sax has difficult passages as it embodies dreams and fantasy as well as

the everday reality of the young Duluoz. And for youngsters these worlds

merge. "Transcendenta transcendenta we will dance a mad cadenza". I mean,

what does this mean? Well somehow we know exactly what it means.

Anyhow, pointing out typos is of interest to me and probably most of us.

I wonder how many typos are in Visions of Cody? Or Dr. Sax?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 20:31:28 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Visionsof Cody&BigSurstuff

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.811203352.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> writes:

> I don't know that these discussions are worth getting upset over-

For the record, my blood pressure is normal or below, and I have the

utmost respect for Nicholas. I intend passion, because the blood

pumps in me for these many years in tune with the text I'm describing,

yet I mean no offense to anyone here.

> Anyhow, pointing out typos is of interest to me and probably most of us.

> I wonder how many typos are in Visions of Cody? Or Dr. Sax?

Let me say once again - I don't regard what I have described as a simple

typo. Think of Wagner's Prelude to Act III of Lohengrin, how sombre and

moving without feet it is. Now imagine in the center of all that

welling up high eternity and drama in the dusk a strumming silly banjo

doing two bars of fractured Lady of Spain.

Now think of nobody in the audience, nor the conductor, nor the

critics, nor god even, noticing. One voice crying in the woods,

the work's debased! And it's like a lone tree falling....

See?

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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:45:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "James D. Barger" <CoolMadman@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Big Sur

In a message dated 95-09-15 17:26:38 EDT, you write:

>I agree with Kerouac's own assessment; he was a wordslinger, not an

>idea man, and what he had to say was in the diction, and not in the

>doings. In fact, _Big Sur_ is the history of a fairly common alcoholic

>breakdown, less the prosody. It is the telling, more than the tale.

YES! Yes, yes, yes!

It is in the telling. The journey IS the destination. The journey of words

is the thing.

James Barger

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:46:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Heeg, Michael" <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re: Big Sur

I couldn't agree with you more, the errors , typographical, are

meaningless, the real essence of these books are the meaning within,

how or what does reading this particular text move you. It's the

ability for you to see things in a way that you might not normally

see. I have , also, read Dharma Bums, Big Sur, Go , and others and

have noticed errors, but that doesn't effect me. By the way, has J.C.

Holmes written anything that might be worth reading, besides GO? It

is interesting to read , for example Road and Go , and compare these

two pieces of literature since the detail a lot of the same people and

activities, but in an entirely differenr light.

michael

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Big Sur

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 9/15/95 4:08 PM

I'm sorry but I think you are just plain wrong on your interpretation of

Kerouacs writing. Who cares if thinks is written on the 109 th page of

the 216 book instead of thing or if anyone still reads his writing.

The whole point behind his genius is what he had to say. And its not just

about smoking 'tea' and taking benzidrine or drinking himself to death.

How can you read Big Sur and not imagine yourself on that beach or making

that damn in the stream for the water or sitting in a chair with just utter

contempt for all the shit in the society that has gone so wrong. Or read

Dharma Bums and see that the is spelled teh instead of being on top of the

mountain and then running down it or taking to some crazy guy or imagining

just being for one day with someone like Japhy Ryder someone who actually

has still got a little bit of energy and enthusiam for this life instead of

a plentitude of boredom.

Whats the big deal about Joyce anyway. Who wants to write a book that is

utterly incomprehensible. And if you are complaining that Kerouac is un

understandable i suggest you try to read Joyce (who himself is just mimicking

the irish or scottish dialect in my opinion).

Why even read anything if all you are doing is looking for errors. I just

read GO and it has over ten errors itself I am sure because I ACTUALLY DID

READ IT, but I dont care because it actually moved me the passage about

STROFSKY (Ginsberg) and his visions to utter distress.

Ah hell its all just a bunch of shit anyway, why do you care?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:25:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 15 Sep 1995 to 16 Sep 1995

No, the errors are important. My understanding is that Kerouac took every

word he wrote seriously, and hated being edited by his publishers because it

destroyed the rhythm which is all important. Just because he wrote fast and

spontaneously doesn't mean each word wasn't weighed and isn't important. The

message is there of course, the essence is there, but surely the genius of

Kerouac as opposed to others who try to write spontaneous prose, lies in the

rhythm. Compare with jazz impros; you wouldn't put up with a recording

engineer interfering by mixing in a wrong or unmeant note, it would be a

travesty. As a publisher, maybe I take all of this sort of thing too

seriously, but the original post was right - it is a disgrace and it -does-

affect a full appreciation.

Nick Weir-Williams

>

> I couldn't agree with you more, the errors , typographical, are

> meaningless, the real essence of these books are the meaning within,

> how or what does reading this particular text move you. It's the

> ability for you to see things in a way that you might not normally

> see. I have , also, read Dharma Bums, Big Sur, Go , and others and

> have noticed errors, but that doesn't effect me. By the way, has J.C.

> Holmes written anything that might be worth reading, besides GO? It

> is interesting to read , for example Road and Go , and compare these

> two pieces of literature since the detail a lot of the same people and

> activities, but in an entirely differenr light.

>

> michael

>

>

>______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

>Subject: Big Sur

>Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

>Date: 9/15/95 4:08 PM

>

>

>I'm sorry but I think you are just plain wrong on your interpretation of

>Kerouacs writing. Who cares if thinks is written on the 109 th page of

>the 216 book instead of thing or if anyone still reads his writing.

>The whole point behind his genius is what he had to say. And its not just

>about smoking 'tea' and taking benzidrine or drinking himself to death.

>How can you read Big Sur and not imagine yourself on that beach or making

>that damn in the stream for the water or sitting in a chair with just utter

>contempt for all the shit in the society that has gone so wrong. Or read

>Dharma Bums and see that the is spelled teh instead of being on top of the

>mountain and then running down it or taking to some crazy guy or imagining

>just being for one day with someone like Japhy Ryder someone who actually

>has still got a little bit of energy and enthusiam for this life instead of

>a plentitude of boredom.

>

>Whats the big deal about Joyce anyway. Who wants to write a book that is

>utterly incomprehensible. And if you are complaining that Kerouac is un

>understandable i suggest you try to read Joyce (who himself is just mimicking

>the irish or scottish dialect in my opinion).

>

>Why even read anything if all you are doing is looking for errors. I just

>read GO and it has over ten errors itself I am sure because I ACTUALLY DID

>READ IT, but I dont care because it actually moved me the passage about

>STROFSKY (Ginsberg) and his visions to utter distress.

>

>Ah hell its all just a bunch of shit anyway, why do you care?

>

>------------------------------

>

>End of BEAT-L Digest - 15 Sep 1995 to 16 Sep 1995

>*************************************************

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:12:10 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Terry Kattleman <Tkattleman@EWORLD.COM>

Subject: Re: Big Sur

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.berkeley.edu

Re JC Holmes, Go and others of his worth reading: I found Go, while

essential Beat reading, obviously, quite tedious toward the end. The

characters, without exception, were annoying the hell out of me. Maybe they

were supposed to, they lived in annoying times, but, for me, compelling

fiction this did not make. Holmes' The Horn, on the other hand, a

fictionalized last day in the life of Lester Young, was magnificent,

brilliant. Brings Go to a dead stop in comparison, as far as I'm concerned.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:45:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Rhythm

As I said earlier I still believe the most important part to Kerouac's

writing is in what he was trying to say, but I am not him. And so my

interpretation does not matter, but rather his own interpretation as he

stated to Malcolm Cowley, the man who helped get Road published, and I

quote:

"I see now the whole Cathedral of Form which this is, and am so glad that I

self-taught myself (with some help from Messrs. Joyce & Faulkner) to write

SPONTANEOUS PROSE so that though the eventual LEGEND will run into millions

of words, they'll all be spontaneous and therefore pure and therefore

interesting and at the same time what rejoices me most: RHYTHMIC--It's

prose answering the requirements mentioned by W.C. Williams, for natural

speech rhytmns and words--I'm not doing a pitch for [myself], [I don't]

need it anymore, [I] am walking around in ecstasy because [my] entire

life-work is beginning to shape up and [I] know that all of it (tho eventually

it will languish among the ruins) is holy and was a well done thing."

In his typical nature he had to use third person as not to appear vain, yeah

right, and so I changed the tenses. Either way I think it is extremely clear

his opinion.

And as to the theory behind SUBTERRANEANS being all about rhythm I have another

letter that he wrote explaining that work:

"I only want to stress, however, that in making those "minor changes

throughout" we do not dare touch the rhythm of that prose and those

sentences; I assume they want to remove objectionable words, I will replace

them with words of similar sonic rhytmn"

Kerouac's Letter to Sterling Lord

Dated Sunday Oct. 7, 1956

by the way both these quotes are from ANN CHARTERS book __JACK KEROUAC:

SELECTED LETTERS__ and after having finished it I would suggest it to

anyone who wants to know about Kerouac in depth, before his success.

Nick Herren

nph002@acad.drake.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:16:49 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Typing

Did anyone watch the season premiere of "Silk Stalkings?" They quoted

Truman Capote's infamous quip "That's not writing, it's typing." They

thought, however, that it referred to Clifford Irving rather than

Kerouac. Now what ever gave them that idea? I also came upon a note in

a forthcoming book on the Beat Generation that quoted Samuel Beckett on

the Burroughs' cut-up method: "That's not writing, it's plumbing."

Notes weren't included in my galleys. Does anyone know where this

Beckett quote comes from?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:38:50 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Ginsberg Kerouac Dreams

The current Whole Earth Review printed two dreams of Allen Ginsberg about

Jack Kerouac. They are interesting to read.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:12:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: the Literary Denim <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Re: Holmes, Anything Worth Reading

Continuing posts, which go something like this:

> By the way, has J.C.Holmes written anything that might be worth reading,

besides GO?

> Michael Heeg

>>The Horn, on the other hand, a fictionalized last day in the life of

Lester Young, was magnificent,

>>brilliant. Brings Go to a dead stop in comparison, as far as I'm concerned.

>> Terry Kattleman

_____________________________________

Holmes is, arguably, an overlooked and better essayist than novelist.

_GO_ was perhaps one of those collision of events, published at the right

time, among the right collection of friends. Had literary history not

washed the way it did gracias JK and AG, GO may not have come forward.

As an essayist Holmes can, like Krim, scour private sentiment and

experience, then lace the narrative with proportioned sprinklings of cosmic

and historical detail to generalize as a condition of the times whatever in

personal circumstance he happens to be pondering.

Don't know if because his essays came (most of them) much later than _GO_,

for example, when he was older, more experienced, or whether he actually

found the essay a more comfortable form, but his essays seem less often

strained, better developed. He can be as rhythmic as K.

Try _Nothing More to Declare_ (Deutsch, 1968) or _Gone in October_

(Limberlost, 1985). His journal excepts read well, too (if you can find

them). Darn good diarist.

\\|//

(o o)

----------------------- --------------oOO--(

)--OOo--------------------------------------

vj@primenet.com | Accept loss forever.

Tempe, AZ |

|

Jack Kerouac

-------------------------------------ooooO---Ooooo-------------------------

-------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:19:28 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re Whole Earth and Dreams

>Tim, can you send me the date and page numbers so I get a copy on interlibrary

>loan?

It is the current Whole Earth Review at the newstands now.

The dreams are short and cover less than one page of the magazine.

I read them in the store.

Maybe someone who subscribes or bought a copy can provide the date and

page numbers.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:43:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Big Sur

words shmurds is beauty....love !!!

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:39:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Big Sur

amen! a typo is a typo ...get past your pettiness and try to fathom the work

instead of a superficial printing error.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:19:30 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Help please

In-Reply-To: <01HVB4T79FIE0052OU@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Please send me the correct address to inform this list of a change of

address. Iwish to remain subscribed to this list.

MANY THANKS

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:44:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Holmes, Anything Worth Reading

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:12:49 -0700 from <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Both The Horn and Get Home Free are strong novels, more interesting than

go. Holmes essays, published in a 3 volume set by the University of

Arkansas, are first rate. His poems aren't bad either. I wonder if

part of the reason Holmes is less known or less read is that he hasn't

had the flamboyant lives led by Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg & Cassady.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:37:50 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Help please

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:19:30 +0100 from

<m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:17:12 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Big Sur

I liked Holmes' novel THE HORN.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:21:03 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Big Sur

"The woods are full of wardens."

--JK, "The Vanishing American Hobo"

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:18:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Comments: To: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@firefly.prairienet.org>

In-Reply-To: <61373.311952076@RedwoodFN.org>

I'm interested in a discography of The Fugs.

Wasn't there a later album entitled "It Just Crawled Into My Hand, Honest"?

Your help appreciated.

Note new Tricycle magazine has interview with Ginsberg and an article,

Buddhism and the Beats.

p gregory springer

throw the cow over the fence some hay

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:18:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: unabomber manifesto

Most decidedly not beat, but an EXTREMELY interesting

read. Printed in its entirety (33,000 words, I'm only about

a tenth of the way thru!) at:

http://pathfinder.com

enjoy

Tracey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:04:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

I hope this sparks something interesting!!

Laur

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:06:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

>If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

>think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

>I hope this sparks something interesting!!

>

>Laur

I don't know what he would watch, but whatever he watched I don't think he

would pay much notice. For example he watched TV when he was alive. I

have heard that he was watching the Galloping Gourmet when he had his fatal

hemorrage.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:05:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To: <950921220436_25947123@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Laurie Syrek"

at Sep 21, 95 10:04:38 pm

>

> If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

> think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

> I hope this sparks something interesting!!

christ...where did this come from.... i just spent the worst train ride

of my life sitting in a corner, cringing with pain...trying desperately

to read _the dharma bums_ but all i could hear was the incessant inanity

of a plastic woman across the aisle... she was beaming over her thursday

night television escapades... he lips never stopped moving... her voice

dominated every available space in that tuna can... i was beginning to

rant in my mind... please stop...please stop...

i stared at the tracks and thought of my geometry teacher...

"in euclidean geometry, parallel lines never intersect...but change this

statement... make it a postulate that parellel lines do intersect and you

no longer have euclidean geometry.."

i thought... a new perspective... a new reality... see the train tracks...

what if they converged? who would be able to survive the change?

uuuugh. it's over..it's gone.. please stop.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:12:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:05:26 -0500"

<199509221305.JAA25988@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

>

> If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

> think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

If Jack were alive he would be DRUNK or STONED or HIGH and wouldnt care

one bit about Seinfeld or friends, but if he saw Courtney Cox in a bar or

a whorehouse or one of HIS friends illustrious parties, I am sure he would

eye her down and somehow have some fun.

>christ...where did this come from.... i just spent the worst train ride

How could the train ride be so boring, were you not in the Hobo Section.

By the way if you just read __Dharma Bums__ and are wondering maybe who

Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

of Han Shan poems.

As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:32:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To: <01HVKIWGZ5TQ00AH7D@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> from "Nicholas Herren" at Sep

22, 95 08:12:43 am

> Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

> of Han Shan poems.

thank you.

> As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

> of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

then you did not understand...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:34:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "David J. Tucker" <DJTUCKE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

,or to be on a train with dreams of Moloch!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Dream film

Last night I was watching _Rebel Without a Cause_ and was imagining a movie

with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady, but could

best imagine him playing Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

worship.

Just a thought,

Jules

PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:41:02 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

What is it with you comparing everything to movies and T.V. shows? In

most cases I believe that the written word is much stronger and more

meaningful than the spoken word in films or T.V.. Television numbs the

mind, throw your television out the window. JK was not into T.V., one

of his books I can't remember which, he describes walking the night

in a suburban neighborhood, seeing nothing but the same blue light

radiating from every home. He couldn't beleive that everyone was

living this life in front of a television, when you could be out

experiencing life. That's what I believe his books are about living

life, experiencing everything. It's just really disappointing with

all of these comparisions to movies and ridiculous T.V. shows, and

unfortunately I did see the show Friends and it was HORRIBLE!!! Won't

make the same mistake.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Dream film

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 9/22/95 9:53 AM

Last night I was watching _Rebel Without a Cause_ and was imagining a movie

with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady, but could

best imagine him playing Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

worship.

Just a thought,

Jules

PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:42:36 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

>As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

>thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie.

There was a book written about this incident by Burroughs and Kerouac

called And the Hippos were Boiled in Their Tanks.

In the letters by kerouac recently published he mentioned the Hippos book

and said it was in a trunk at his Mother's house. So presumably this

manuscript still exists. Does anyone know for sure about this?

I would think that with all the beat interest these days that a book

co-authored by Burroughs and Kerouac would be greedily lusted after by

publishers. Does anyone have actual information on this subject?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:26:47 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Martin Taylor <mtaylor@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

Subject: Self-inflicted Geometry

In-Reply-To: <199509221332.JAA26626@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

> > Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

> > of Han Shan poems.

>

> thank you.

>

> > As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

> > of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

>

>

> then you did not understand...

I think Nicholas understood perfectly. Think of it as a koan... truth can

be _so_ funny.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:04:47 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400 from <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

On Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400 Julie Hulvey said:

>Last night I was watching _Rebel Without a Cause_ and was imagining a movie

>with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

>could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady, but could

>best imagine him playing Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

>innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

>As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

>thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

>incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

>whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

>icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

>point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

>worship.

>

>Just a thought,

>

>Jules

>PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

It would certainly make a sensational movie, one that I'm sure Lucien

Carr wouldnot be very happy about. Have you read Aaron Latham's article

in New York Magazine about the murder? If anyone needs the citation,

I'd be glad to look it up. I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

biography of Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:37:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Self-inflicted Geometry

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.950922102244.117721A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>

from "Martin Taylor" at Sep 22, 95 10:26:47 am

> I think Nicholas understood perfectly. Think of it as a koan... truth can

> be _so_ funny.

>

i did not intend for the geometry to be thought of as torture...it was my

escape from the mindless crap that the cathode ray tube inspires...

i did not express myself clearly..i tend to do that... i was thinking

back to a time when i first began to see things in a different light...

i was not going to bother to explain myself... this used to be a warm place..

now...i'll let it go.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:36:10 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Dream film

Yeah, Ann Charters says she has read the manuscript and it's terrible.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:55:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

>Last night I was watching _Rebel Without a Cause_ and was >imagining a

movie with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg >during the Columbia U days

.

I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:36:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Dream film

There you go again, why the need to to make these ridiculous

comparisions? Please, let me know, maybe I will understand what you

are trying to do/accomplish, and will not become irritated by these

comparisions.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Dream film

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 9/22/95 3:09 PM

>Last night I was watching _Rebel Without a Cause_ and was >imagining a

movie with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg >during the Columbia U days

.

I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:23:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: tv

Michael Heeg and others:

In _The Dharma Bums_, Kerouac does have Ray Smith, his narrator, does

complain about the suburban life "and inside the little blue square of the

television, each living family riveting its attention on probably one show;

nobody talking" (104), echoing his earlier comment about "television sets

in each living room with everybody looking at the same thing and thinking

the same thing at the same time" (39). He also imagines, "The only alternative

to sleeping out, hopping freights, and doing what I wanted, I saw in a

vision would be to just sit with a hundred other patients in front of a

nice television set in a madhouse, where we could be 'supervised'"(121).

However, one of the most charming aspects of Kerouac's narrators is their

very human and real inconsistency. So, Ray finds himself back in Rocky Mount

on Christmas Eve, "which I spent with a bottle of wine before the TV

enjoying the shows" (135). We can get an idea of what kind of shows he

was watching when he describes "a great big young cop with a gun swinging

in a holster on his hip, all done up like on TV the Sheriff of Cochise

and Wyatt Earp"(159). Ray also says, "Only one thing I'll say for the

people watching television, the millions and millions of the One Eye:

they're not hurting anyone while they're sitting in front of that Eye"

(104). I suppose we all have our guilty pleasures, and Jack's narrators

are always prone to admit theirs.

Good weekends.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:29:47 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream Movie

>Yeah, Ann Charters says she has read the manuscript and it's terrible.

Good for her. Unfortunately we are not in such a position to read it and make

our own judgements. No matter how bad it is I know many people would love

to be able to read it. And I think the publisher would make good money.

I am glad to know that the manuscript exists.

Anyone know what the surviving author (Burroughs) has to say about this

book? Would he not want it published?

Also I guess Lucien Carr is alive still (right?). He might not appreciate it.

This might be the biggest stumbling block for it to be published.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:50:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: <950922145535_106134432@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Julie Hulvey"

at Sep 22, 95 02:55:36 pm

> I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

> have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

> Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

No way, much too surly. Remember, Neal was known for his friendliness

and charm. Does that describe Dennis Hopper?

I do like the idea of Sal Mineo as a young Allen. But to me the all-time

dream cast for either Sal Paradise/Dean Moriarty or Jack/Neal is

Montgomery Clift/Paul Newman.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:55:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Fugs Discography

Comments: cc: RHulvey@aol.com

P. Gregory Springer asked in a recent post:

>I'm interested in a discography of The Fugs.

I can provide some information. [By the way, I am

posting this under my wife's name because she is

the subscriber to the Beat List. I read the list and

have posted once before, but usually I lurk.]

The following discography mostly comes from various

published sources. In doing so, I am perpetuating

their errors (since they often contradict themselves).

Someday I'll be able to give the definitive (I hope)

discography, as I am working on a major Ed Sanders

bibliography/discography/videography/etc.-ography.

But meanwhile, and for what it's worth, I banged this

together.

The cd re-issues, Songs in Ancient Greek, and

Best of Ed Sanders I purchased directly from Ed.

Presumably, they are still available from: Ed Sanders,

Box 729, Woodstock, NY 12498.

If anyone can offer comments, corrections or additions, I would

be extremely grateful. Please email such directly to me at

RHulvey@aol.com [as well as to the List, if you think it's

appropriate].

Thanks.

Ross Hulvey

=================

THE FUGS:

The Village Fugs

(Broadside [Folkways] Records, 1965)

First Fugs Album

[re-issue (I think) of above, often thought

to be THE first Fugs album]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1018, 1965)

The Fugs First Album

[re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

(cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The Fugs

[liner notes by Allen Ginsberg]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1028)

The Fugs Second Album

[re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

(cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The ESP Sampler

[Fugs, et al]

(lp, ESP Records, nd)

Tenderness Junction

(lp, Reprise Records, 1968)

Virgin Fugs

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1038, 1968)

It Crawled Into My Hand, Honest

(lp, Reprise Records, 1969)

The Belle of Avenue A

(lp, Reprise Records, RS6359, 1969)

Golden Filth

(lp, Reprise Records, 1970)

Fugs 4, Rounders Score

[Fugs and Holy Modal Rounders]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-2018, 1975)

Proto-Punk

(lp, PVC Records, 1983)

Refuse to be Burnt-Out

(lp, Olufsen Records, 1984)

Star Peace

(2 lps, New Rose Records, 1987)

Fugs Live in Woodstock

(cd, Musik/Musik, 1989)

Real Woodstock Festival

[should be released by now, but

haven't seen it yet]

(2 cds, Ace Records, 1995)

ED SANDERS:

Sanders' Truckstop

(lp, Reprise Records)

Beer Cans on the Moon

(lp, Reprise Records)

Songs in Ancient Greek

(cd, Olufsen Records, 1989)

The Best of Ed Sanders

(cass., Ed Sanders, 1992)

TULI KUPFERBERG:

No Deposit, No Return

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1035)

(cd, re-issue [not confirmed])

Rutles Highway Revisited

[Tuli does "Living in Hope." Also,

tracks by Peter Stampfel, et al]

(cd, Shimmy Disc)

PETER STAMPFEL / HOLY MODAL ROUNDERS

[I have an incomplete discography on Peter, also.

But I think it's too peripheral for the Beat List,

although he's intimately connected to the Fugs.]

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:55:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

On 9/21, Michael Heeg wrote

>What is it with you comparing everything to movies and T.V. shows?

I suppose you mean the plural "you", since I didn't make the

"Seinfeld vs. Friends" post. In fact I've seen neither show; ever since "Twin

Peaks" went off I haven't seen too much TV. I do like movies and feel they

are a valid art form which also interested Our Heroes -- ever heard of "Pull

my Daisy?":).

I feel you reacted a bit violently to my lighthearted post. But what if I

*had* compared? It could be said that _Rebel without a Cause_, whether or not

high art, came out of the same post WWII dissatisfaction that spawned the

Beats.

> In most cases I believe that the written word is much stronger and > more

meaningful than the spoken word in films or T.V.

Truisms numb the mind, throw out yr. truisms. JK was not into truisms.

>Television numbs the mind, throw your television out the window.

> JK was not into T.V.

I'm not sure about that. Not only did he appear on it, I remember reading

that toward the end he spent a lot of time in front of the TV (although with

the sound turned off). Sad image. I thought it was part of the legend, and

that the Seinfeld/Friends post was a joke about that. So it didn't annoy me.

Besides, K liked to numb his mind, just not with TV.

>He couldn't beleive that everyone was living this life in front of a

>television, when you could be out experiencing life.

How about in front of a computer?

> It's just really disappointing with all of these comparisions to >movies

and ridiculous T.V. shows

Sorry

>and unfortunately I did see the show Friends

He admits it! But go on, how was it?

>and it was HORRIBLE!!! Won't make the same mistake.

Good. Abandon all hope of being given what you need by the consensus culture.

You will then be "beat".

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:57:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Self-inflicted Geometry and Mediocre Television!!!

Well, the cathode ray tube might be filled with middle-class stereotypes and

superficial, commercialized messages, but surely one cannot say that

television hasn't a redeeming quality? Has anyone ever read anything by Alan

Olsen or Chris and Debra Parr? They're out of BU, and they did some

interesting stuff with television and modes of communication. I think it's

all too easy to dismiss tv as crass and mediocre. Granted, Seinfeld and

Friends may not be intellectually stimulating, but they serve as a good

example of how the youth culture has invaded the mainstream (Do I see a Dobie

Gillis connection?). It shows us where the higher-ups at the network place

the intelligence of the average viewer. Plus, it gives me something to watch

while I'm cleaning my living room. What more can I ask?

Don't answer that last question.

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 07:25:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

Levi Asher wrote:

=I do like the idea of Sal Mineo as a young Allen. But to me the all-time

=dream cast for either Sal Paradise/Dean Moriarty or Jack/Neal is

=Montgomery Clift/Paul Newman.

Sounds decent. I take it, then, you are not too thrilled with the casting of

Brad Pitt and Sean Penn in Coppola's upcoming film version of On the Road?

I am new to this list, so forgive me if y'all have already discussed Coppola's

movie, but I am curious what you all think about it. I know it's not even in

the can yet, but what are/were your thoughts?

Cheers,

Bonnie Howard

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 07:49:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Appraisers? Help...

Hi. I am in a bind here, and need some help, and thought of you folks. I have

come into possession of a large amount of papers, manuscripts, chapbooks,

poems, letters, and books (some signed first ed.'s) from the Beat era, and have

to have the whole shebang catalogued and appraised. I live in Northern

California, and Beat writers are not my specialty, so I'm a bit overwhelmed.

If anyone knows of someone who can help me with this massive project, I would

be so grateful. If you know someone or want more info, please e-mail me

privately at: howardb@sonoma.edu

Forgive me for cluttering up your list with a personal request, but I'm about

ready to throw up my hands and start screaming :-)

Oh--some of the things that have fallen into my lap are works by: Michael

McClure, Richard Brautigan, Allen Ginsburg, Lew Welch, Philip Whalen, Gary

Snyder, Ron Lowensohn, etc. If this is *your* area of expertise, please let me

know, thanks.

Cheers,

Bonnie Lee Howard

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:44:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95092212323662@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at Sep

22, 95 12:04:47 pm

Bill Gargan writes:

> It would certainly make a sensational movie, one that I'm sure Lucien

> Carr wouldnot be very happy about. Have you read Aaron Latham's article

> in New York Magazine about the murder? If anyone needs the citation,

> I'd be glad to look it up. I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

> biography of Kerouac.

Bill, if it's not too much trouble, I would be interested in the

citation. Thanks.

Tony

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:21:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

>No way, much too surly. Remember, Neal was known for his >friendliness and

charm. Does that describe Dennis Hopper?

Mmm....I'd have to admit it doesn't. Although my husband thinks Hopper not

charmless (though not harmless).

Earlier today, when I was looking something else up in "Jack's Book" by Barry

Gifford I came upon a sad passage where Ginsberg visits Neal not too long

before he dies, and notices that "for the very first time", Neal is neither

friendly or charming. Remarkable in such a long relationship.

I've been commissioned to do a portrait of Clift and have been seeing his

movies all for the first time. He would have made a beautiful Kerouac.

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:20:39 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: <199509231544.LAA07568@lynx.dac.neu.edu>

Somewhere you write:

> Bill Gargan writes:

>> I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

>> biography of Kerouac.

Good question. I remember he was working on the latter stages of it in

1972, during the summer. He was visiting in Saratoga and interviewing

Carolyn Cassady in Monte Sereno. The immediate disruption was with the

Charters biog, which beat him to press. I suspect Straight Arrow may've

rushed _Kerouac_ a bit; I remember the early reviews weren't favorable.

But I was waiting for the Latham version, because I had just read

_Crazy Sundays_ and was looking forward to the same sort of sensible

mosaic wrought out of vivid detail. I hope it someday becomes

available in some form.

--

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 12:11:56 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

>

>

>Sounds decent. I take it, then, you are not too thrilled with the casting of

>Brad Pitt and Sean Penn in Coppola's upcoming film version of On the Road?

>

>I am new to this list, so forgive me if y'all have already discussed Coppola's

>movie, but I am curious what you all think about it. I know it's not even in

>the can yet, but what are/were your thoughts?

Well I for one would be interested in seeing it when it arrives...at first

glance the casting sounds a little dubious but then i recall Kirk Douglas &

Anthony Quimm playing Van Gogh & Gaugin so i guess Francis could pull it off.

The major thing would be to actually capture the spirit of the

story...remembering that the events occured in the late forties early

fifties...before there was a fully functional myth/media culture to didtort

the endeavours of these fellows..

>

>Cheers,

>Bonnie Howard

>howardb@sonoma.edu

>

>

john reeves voice--61 7 38445907

HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 23:22:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 15 Sep 1995 to 16 Sep 1995

While on the subject of typos...it's improvs' , not impros.

@>~~~~

:)

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 16:20:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Centing <rcenting@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Holmes, Anything Worth Reading

In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT)

ss

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 20:21:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

just curious....what did you guys think of the actors in cronenberg's 'naked

lunch'?.....rene

........(box office draw versus?)...........how 'bout leonardo di caprio as

lucien? he already played jim carroll in 'basketball diaries'...anyone see

that or read the book?....i know, i know...sunday ramble......go

then.....rene

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 20:31:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

courtney cox huh...in 'memory babe' it was said that kerouac only '...liked

to make a girl whom his friend (hal chase), had made first.'......also (same

page), 'For years he had washed his own handkerchiefs so that his mother

wouldn't find evidence of his masturbation. . . .'..............regards

....rene

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:55:37 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "FringeWare Daily (by way of reeves@odyssey.com.au john reeves)"

<email@FRINGEWARE.COM>

Subject: YUCKS - The Author Collar

Comments: To: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Sent from: jim@SmallWorks.COM (Jim Thompson)

------- Start of forwarded message -------

>Forwarded-by: Mike Olson <mao@illustra.com>

>Forwarded-by: Michael Ubell <michael>

>From: MMGORMAN@com.informix.com

August 12, 1995 -- Scottsdale, AZ -- The Coriolis Group today announced

a major technology break through for the dissertation, publishing and

software industries called the Author Collar. This device, created by

Coriolis' Managing Editor, Ron Pronk, provides an innovative system to

track and manage projects being developed by authors, PhD dissertation

writers, software developers, and other freelance staff who are critical

to the success of publishing-related projects.

The Author Collar is designed to be worn around the neck of an author and

connects to a personal computer using a standard SCSI port. With custom

software developed by the Coriolis Group, the Author Collar can be

connected to the Internet using a standard SLIP or PPP connection. Once

connected, a product manager/thesis advisor can monitor the productivity

of an author. If the author gets behind on an important project, the

manager/advisor can send an email message and 'zap' the author a

low-voltage electronic shock to keep him or her on schedule. This is the

first time a technology like this has been developed to be used over the

Internet.

"We've been testing the Collar on some of our authors/dissertation writers

for the past few months and it has helped to increase writing productivity

over 72%," stated Pronk. "I especially like the Collar because I can get

instant results. Instead of waiting days or perhaps weeks for a delinquent

author/dissertation writer to get back to me, I can send a message across

the Internet, 'zap' the author to get his or her immediate attention, and

get a phone call/Email back in no time at all. With the use of this

innovative technology, I can manage many more projects than I was able to

in the past."

"We've had especially gratifying results from disseration writers with

small children. We've installed the device on the children. The

productivity improvements are close to 100%. It is especially important

to know when to zap the little tikes. Early hours of the AM, say 2 or 3

are not productive. The children only wake their parents and that slows

productivity. During the day is not too good either because the kids are

out to play or at baby sitters. The real good time is in the early evening

when the kids are taking a bath. The zap is especially enhanced..."

"The only real surprise has been with authors who have teen-age children.

When the device is connected to the teen-agers, productivity decreases.

Seems the parents look forward to the zapping event."

"A few authors were reluctant to participate at first," Pronk admitted,

"but after they overcame their initial hesitation, they've actually come

to like it. An interesting thing happens. Authors no longer go through

the day with that nagging stressed-out feeling that comes from ducking my

phone calls. Instead, I give them a mild 'zap,' which essentially tells

them, 'hey, let's pick up the pace, here.' It actually removes some of

their guilt feelings about being late, and at the same time encourages

them to deliver material more quickly. So it's a win-win situation for

everybody involved."

"We've invested heavily in this technology to give our company a

competitive edge over other publishing companies in our market," stated

Coriolis Publisher and CEO Keith Weiskamp. "With the Author Collar, any

of our authors can easily crank out a 1,000+ page book in 21 days or less.

In terms of productivity savings, Author Collar may turn out to be one of

the most useful tools developed using the dynamic power of the Internet."

The Author Collar can be used for a wide range of industries and

applications. The Collar requires an IBM compatible PC or Macintosh with

a SCSI port. In addition, a willing participant is required as well as a

PPP or SLIP Internet connection. Pricing for the Author Collar has not

been determined. A deluxe version of the Collar is under development that

would allow managers to assign unique "hot keys" for activating multiple

Collars, directly from the keyboard.

--

Jim Thompson jim@SmallWorks.COM

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 10:08:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: YUCKS - The Author Collar

The Author Collar sounds like someone's attempt to imitate Jonathan

Swift satirical (yet realistic) solution to too many babies being born in

Irland (I apologise that the name of the essay escapes me)......Old

age is such a pain in the --- well, you know what I mean.

It's a joy to communicate

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 07:33:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

Somebody asked me this question -- does anyone know who this is?

> There is a writer associated with the beat generated who

> had a polish last name...

> His work was rather autobiographical (rather transparently)

> He wrote about guys who did beat things... lost jobs, used excessive

> amounts of drugs, etc.

> He was a boxer... he worked as a janitor... he bet on horse races

> with some foreign kid... he had a cardboard suitcase...

> Do you know him?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:34:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

Charles Bukowski

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 9/25/95 10:49 AM

Somebody asked me this question -- does anyone know who this is?

> There is a writer associated with the beat generated who

> had a polish last name...

> His work was rather autobiographical (rather transparently)

> He wrote about guys who did beat things... lost jobs, used excessive

> amounts of drugs, etc.

> He was a boxer... he worked as a janitor... he bet on horse races

> with some foreign kid... he had a cardboard suitcase...

> Do you know him?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:48:58 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

Bukowski of course!

----------

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

Date: Monday, September 25, 1995 7:33AM

Somebody asked me this question -- does anyone know who this is?

> There is a writer associated with the beat generated who

> had a polish last name...

> His work was rather autobiographical (rather transparently)

> He wrote about guys who did beat things... lost jobs, used excessive

> amounts of drugs, etc.

> He was a boxer... he worked as a janitor... he bet on horse races

> with some foreign kid... he had a cardboard suitcase...

> Do you know him?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 12:00:21 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Latham article

Since I've had a request for the Latham citation: Latham, Aaron. "The Columbi

a Murder That Gave Birth To The Beats." New York Magazine, April 19, 1976, pp.

41-53.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 10:35:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <9509251655.AA05368@netmail2.microsoft.com> from "Bruce Greeley"

at Sep 25, 95 08:48:58 am

>

> Bukowski of course!

> Somebody asked me this question -- does anyone know who this is?

>

> > There is a writer associated with the beat generated who

> > had a polish last name...

> > His work was rather autobiographical (rather transparently)

> > He wrote about guys who did beat things... lost jobs, used excessive

> > amounts of drugs, etc.

> > He was a boxer... he worked as a janitor... he bet on horse races

> > with some foreign kid... he had a cardboard suitcase...

> > Do you know him?

>

Wow -- talk about missing the forest for the trees. I had set my

radar for a real obscure name, and skipped right past this obvious

answer. Thanks!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:17:26 -0400

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From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Shot in the Dark (fwd)

BUKOWSKI!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:24:00 -0600

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From: Matt Owen <mowen@RAMBO.SC.WHECN.EDU>

Subject: New Member Introduction

Matt Owen

Sheridan College

Sheridan, Wyoming 82801

Email: mowen@rambo.sc.whecn.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 18:36:24 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: ON THE ROAD "messages to Garcia" passage

Hi Folks,

Last night I was reading ON THE ROAD and came across this passage, on page

164 of the Signet paperback edition: " -- and then he came to the end of his

song, and for this there had to be elaborate preparations, during which time

you could send all the messages to Garcia around the world twelve times and

what difference did it make to anybody?"

So whaddaya think? Is this some kind of prophetic passage illustrating

Ginsberg's notion that Kerouac was Universal Mind while writing? Or is there

a more mundane explanation? Perhaps "messages to Garcia" was a line in some

popular song of the day? I don't know. If one of you does, please clue me in.

Thanks,

Dan B.

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:58:44 -0600

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From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Ginsberg on Rock & Roll (PBS)

In-Reply-To: <3590844382.31204491@RedwoodFN.org>

Anyone been watching "Rock & Roll" on PBS in the last couple of days?

Ginsberg has been talking a lot...mainly about Bob Dylan and the Beatles.

There were also shots of the Kerouac funeral.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 18:55:46 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Masculinity, violence, and night-time-jitters

An update here. Did beat men beat beat women, etc. On page 101 of ON THE ROAD

(Signet paperback edition) Sal Paradise says: "My aunt once said the world

would never find peace until men fell at their women's feet and asked for

forgiveness. But Dean knew this; he'd mentioned it many times. . . .

" 'The truth of the matter is we don't understand our women; we blame on

them and it's all our fault,' I said."

So, more food for thought. ON THE ROAD is quite interesting in terms of

sex roles and relationships. Galatea Dunkel is an intriguing character. Check

out the first four chapters of Part Three in particular.

On this same subject, the Fall '95 issue of HUNGRY MIND REVIEW (free in

many bookstores) focuses on Men and Women. It has a number of interesting

essays and reviews, including one by Leslie Marmon Silko in which she says:

"No beast more dangerous in the U.S.A. than an unemployed white man." Sexism?

Racism? Hmm, hummm, hmm ... This issue also includes writers'

recommendations of books for young adults. Joyce Carol Oates' recommendations

include ON THE ROAD, which she says "is told by an older adolescent." Well,

as her New Yorker review of THE PORTABLE JACK KEROUAC and J.K.: SELECTED

LETTERS shows, she doesn't quite get it. But she is starting to get a clue.

All for now.

Best,

Dan B.

dan_barth@redwoodfn.org

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:06:24 EDT

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From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: ON THE ROAD "messages to Garcia" passage

Dan,

"Message to Garcia" was an inspirational story current around the end of

the 19th century. It's only a couple of pages, and in fact is on-line in

one of the electronic book libraries.

Anyway, the story is basically this- Garcia is a guerilla leader in Cuba

(I think, or some othe Spanish-American war place). The American Commander

needs to get a "Message to Garcia" and a young soldier takes it there

braving surmounting all kinds of terrible jungle-type trials. This soldier

is an example of the kind of man "modern business" needs. The moral of the

story is "just do it", don't be side tracked, etc; or that the man who

wants to succeed in this capitalist world had better be prepared to

sacrifice all to do his job (depending on your philosophical bent). In my

opinon, it is not one of the better pieces of this type so popular at the

time. It does appear in references frequently and must have been widely

read and discussed.

Mark Hemenway

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:13:31 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg on Rock & Roll (PBS)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950926115715.11844D-100000@moondog.usask.ca>; from

"Peter Scott" at Sep 26, 95 11:58 am

Oh Man!! I tuned in too late (9:30) and missed the funeral part.

Did see Ginsberg talk eloquently about the Beatles tho....

If someone taped the entire first hour and lives near Boston.....oh well.

TONIGHT they are doing blues/r&B and the effect of same on the psychedelic

type tunes. They'll feature zep, the Dead, and the Velvet Underground, I think.

I've already got *this* taping request taken care of...

I thought what I saw so far of the series was excellent. Even my swill hard

buddy who was over was impressed with it :)

Tracey

>

> Anyone been watching "Rock & Roll" on PBS in the last couple of days?

> Ginsberg has been talking a lot...mainly about Bob Dylan and the Beatles.

> There were also shots of the Kerouac funeral.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:30:09 EDT

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Patti Smith

Patti Smith is supposed to on one of those PBS shows. Sounds like tonight

might be it.

Mark H.

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 19:28:44 -0800

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From: "Jeffrey L. Meikle" <meikle@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: messages to Garcia

Dan Barth writes:

>Last night I was reading ON THE ROAD and came across this passage, on page

>164 of the Signet paperback edition: " -- and then he came to the end of his

>song, and for this there had to be elaborate preparations, during which time

>you could send all the messages to Garcia around the world twelve times and

>what difference did it make to anybody?"

It'd be nice to think Ol' Jack is synched in to Jerry Garcia and the Dead

but he's really just betraying his Lowell high school erudition here. "A

Message to Garcia" was a pro-big-business tract published in 1899 by Elbert

Hubbard, a former soap salesman who went into the Arts and Crafts business,

founded a retreat in upstate New York where burned-out executives and their

wives could pay big bucks to learn hand-printing, bookbinding, carpentry,

metal-working, and attend uplifting lectures (kind of an early Esalen

Institute without the redeeming features). An old professor of mine called

him "the man with the limp noodle mind," but I never figured out why. A

chain of giftshops across the country sold rustic nicknacks and the many

little books of "Fra Elbertus," as he was known. Ironically, given that he

wore monk's robes and dallied with the middle ages, Elbertus and his missus

went down when the Lusitania was torpedoed. "Message to Garcia" was just

the sort of uplifting stuff that would have been required reading among the

stuffier English teachers when Jack was in school. Kind of like a

reference to Scott Peck or Robert Fulghum today.

--Jeff Meikle

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Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 22:21:20 -0400

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From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: "Message to Garcia"

Dan Barth writes:

>Last night I was reading ON THE ROAD and came across this >passage, on

page164 of the Signet paperback edition: " -- and >then he came to the end of

his song, and for this there had to >be elaborate preparations, during which

time you could send >all the messages to Garcia around the world twelve times

and >what difference did it make to anybody?"

>So whaddaya think? Is this some kind of prophetic passage >illustrating

Ginsberg's notion that Kerouac was Universal >Mind while writing? Or is there

a more mundane explanation? >Perhaps "messages to Garcia" was a line in some

popular song >of the day? I don't know. If one of you does, please clue me

in.

Well, since you asked: The reference is to popular culture, but not to a

line in any song. "The Message to Garcia" is the title of an essay by Elbert

Hubbard, a popular inspirational writer of the late-19th century. It was his

rather garbled account of a covert mission just before the outbreak of the

Spanish-American War, in which a U.S. army lieutenant stationed in Cuba

carried a message *from* Cuban revolutionary General Calixto Garcia *to*

then-President William McKinley. Of course, Hubbard got his facts twisted,

but the essay established the incident in American popular culture. By the

time Kerouac used the term, it had become virtually an idiom for any vital

message.

Apparently, the use of this idiom has now all but faded. Hate to be a

killjoy, but I doubt there's any hidden prophetic sub-text here - Just good

vernacular writing.

Luther Jett

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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:16:09 +0000

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From: Vicente Garcia Pineiro <vgarcia@GOLIAT.UGR.ES>

Subject: Some of the dharma

In the introduction of "Visions of Cody", allen ginsberg speak about

a book by kerouac: "Some of the dharma". Was this book published?

Vic

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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 14:34:50 -0500

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From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: fugs

For Ed Sanders's recordings, people might also be interested in his

appearances on John Giorno's Dial-a-Poem Poets records:

"Cemetery Hill" (recorded 19 July 1965) on _The Dial-a-Poem Poets_ (1972)

"Stand by my Side, Oh Lord" (rec. 9 May 1973) on _Disconnected_ (1974)

"The Struggle" (rec. 1 Jan. 1975) on _Biting off the Tongue of a Corpse_ (1975)

"This is the Age of Investigation Poetry and Every Citizen Must Investigate"

(rec. 1 Jan. 1976) on _Totally Corrupt_ (1976)

"A Monologue" from The Fugs (rec. 1 June 1968) on _Big Ego_ (1978)

In addition, _Proto Punk_ (my copy is dated 1982, not 1983), released by

Adelphi Records, is cited on the album spine as _The Fugs Greatest Hits

Vol. I_, with remastered tapes and discs and with liner notes (cont. on

insert) by Lester Bangs. I don't know if subsequent volumes were issued.

Cheers to all the slum gods and goddesses.

Michael Skau

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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 21:27:50 +0200

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg on Rock & Roll (PBS)

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95092614234090@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> (milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM)

What's Ginsberg been saying about Bobby D, the Beatles etc? I'm out of the

country and can't possibly see this. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:47:25 -0400

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From: Mary Maguire <maguirem@CA.CCH.COM>

Subject: dream film

On Sept. 22, 1995, Levi Asher wrote (re: a young Dennis Hopper in the role

of Dean Moriarty):

>No way, much too surly. Remember, Neal was known for his

>friendliness and charm. Does that describe Dennis Hopper?

Friendliness and charm? I hope Francis Ford Coppola takes Dean Moriarty

past THIS sentimental assessment. In _Jack's Book_, John Clellon Holmes

describes Neal Cassady this way:

"Neal was a psychopath in the traditional and most rigorous sense of the

term. That is, he acted out everything that occurred to him."

Casting Brad Pitt (or perhaps Sean Penn) in this role is perfect. Hasn't

anybody seen _Kalifornia_? ;-)

And as for Dennis Hopper's ability to play a frenetic, raving traveller,

his performance as the freelance photographer in Coppola's _Apocalypse

Now_ was one of the best portrayals of drug-enhanced mania I've had the

pleasure to see.

I tried unsuccessfully some months ago to introduce a discussion of the

complexities of Neal's character -- of his effect on Jack as a writer and

on us as readers. Perhaps now, instead of focussing on the casting for _On

the Road_, we could examine how Coppola might approach the story, how

contemporary American audiences might receive it, etc.

Will it be a simple road story? And if so, how will audiences react to the

motives (sexual and otherwise) of our heroes? Will it be about escaping a

hypocritical Establishment? The Gen-Xers will surely relate.

Will it be a character study of Dean Moriarty? Last American hero? A

lesson in living instinctually, for the moment? Jack romanticized this

character; will Coppola do the same?

Or will this director repeat the brilliance of _Apocalypse Now_ -- and its

treatment of Conrad's Kurtz -- by turning a character study of Dean into a

story about the development of the artist, Sal, so that Sal becomes the

hero? This is what I hope for, but it would require a _Visions of Cody_

twist.

Any ideas out there?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:26:46 EDT

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From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: dream film

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:47:25 EDT

I think that an interesting way to approach a filmed version of OTR

would be to also consider the how and when of its having been written.

As enthralling as the tale told is the story of Jack pounding away on

the teletype roll, of Allen carrying the manuscript around, trying to

hawk it to folks like Carl Solomon, and of Jack's world that followed

Millstein's review in the NYTimes. End it with that wonderful, telling

scene (I think this might be told in Desolation Angels... might be wrong

though) of Jack opening-up that crate of 1st editions, just as Neal

comes into the room. There was something about Neal's expression that

probably haunted Jack through many a happy hour.

Whaddya Know,

Jim Stedman

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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 06:29:23 -0700

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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9509272201.D18648-0100000@cchtor> from "Mary Maguire"

at Sep 27, 95 10:47:25 pm

> Friendliness and charm? I hope Francis Ford Coppola takes Dean Moriarty

> past THIS sentimental assessment. In _Jack's Book_, John Clellon Holmes

> describes Neal Cassady this way:

>

> "Neal was a psychopath in the traditional and most rigorous sense of the

> term. That is, he acted out everything that occurred to him."

>

> Casting Brad Pitt (or perhaps Sean Penn) in this role is perfect. Hasn't

> anybody seen _Kalifornia_? ;-)

I continue to respectfully disagree. Holmes was not Neal's friend. I've read

many other accounts of Neal and the descriptions often remark on his infectious

enthusiasm for everything around him, and his ability to win people over by

making them feel good about themselves. I remember, for instance, Kerouac's

description of the way Neal might make a person who owned a record album feel

as if a record album was just the most amazing, wonderful thing in the world

for somebody to own, and "could we listen to it right now?" This is a

salesman's charm, perhaps -- but it's not consistent with Dennis Hopper/Brad

Pitt-style nastiness.

I'm also sick of the Hollywood psychopath. Kalifornia, Natural Born Killers,

the standard bad-guy-vs.-Stallone/Eastwood/Seagall shoot-em-up film -- they

all do the schtick Dennis Hopper did so well in 'Blue Velvet' (back when it

was original). 'On The Road' has nothing to do with this kind of character,

and I would be very disappointed if the film tried to follow this trend.

Back to this:

> Will it be a simple road story? And if so, how will audiences react to the

> motives (sexual and otherwise) of our heroes? Will it be about escaping a

> hypocritical Establishment? The Gen-Xers will surely relate.

>

> Will it be a character study of Dean Moriarty? Last American hero? A

> lesson in living instinctually, for the moment? Jack romanticized this

> character; will Coppola do the same?

These are good questions: I also hope the film will be about America in

the 40's. The diners, the dusty roads, the water tower in Shelton,

Nebraska ... I think these things might translate very well into film.

I also liked Jim Stedman's idea about bracketing the film with the

story of how it was written and published. An unusual idea, but I'll go

along with it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

-- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

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Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:23:59 -0600

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From: Andrew Burnett <andrewb@BIDS.SSHARE.COM>

Subject: Coppola/Cassady

Thanks, Mary Maguire, for your post on Coppola and the mystery of how he'll

treat Cassady in his version of OTR....

As Levi Asher wrote, Neal was known for his "friendliness and charm," but

Mary's point is on the mark, too, via Holme's quote ("Neal was a psychopath

in the traditional and most rigorous sense of the

>term.) -- Neal _was_ an operator, a consummate, pathological one (Aren't we

all at one level or another? Neal was just really good at it (or was he?)),

and I have a feeling that a lot of his interactions were transactions, plain

and simple: someone has $/sex/wisdom and I want it. It seems to me as if

Neal was under the delusion that he had to present a false

superhero-American self to get at the $/sex/wisdom (it was his for the asking).

I always wonder about NC: would I have allowed myself to be utterly charmed

by him? Or would I have been repulsed by his game-playing/posturing? (I

imagine I would have _allowed_ myself to be charmed in spite of the

game-playing, as so many of his friends/loved ones did.) (All this is said

in context: we're all failures, all saints; I think about NC a lot.)

As Mary said, I hope (hope!) that Coppola comes through with the complexity

of the NC/JK experience: NC's pathological dynamism (whatever this is - it

sounds right); the bisexuality that must have been a component (it's

inextricably a part of NC, JK); the raging omni-sexuality; the existential

fever to move/never stop. My expectation (please, I want to be

disappointed), is that Coppola's going to do something about a couple of

post-war, step-it-up-and-go "Buddies."

But it's a hell of a lot of fun to fantasize about casting: Brad Pitt as NC,

yes, a la his pathological cowboy in T/Louise; Jack is tougher: I don't see

Sean Penn succeeding in either role. (God, too bad DeNiro's the age he is:

he would have been a _great_ Kerouac.)(DeNiro would be a great _late_ JK

right now)(pounds added a la Raging Bull). I'm still not on the right

actor, but what about Kevin Spacey (is that it?) -- Glengarry Glen Ross, The

Usual Suspects-- that thoughtful, tentative dead-on set of reactions?

just some thoughts....

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:29:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

Subject: Why now

For an article in New York magazine, why is Beat so hip in 1995?

Where do Beat references show up in contemporary culture (i.e. 10,000 Maniac's

"Hey, Jack Kerouac")?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:23:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Druschke <Greenplate@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

anybody agree with this?

after waiting so long ( i mean Kerouac himself sold the movie

rights!) i hope Coppola doesn't screw it up.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:05:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Why now

In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:29:37 -0400"

<s06a774e.033@penguin.com>

Well I am not exactly sure of what the question:

Where do Beat references show up in contemporary culture (i.e. 10,000 Maniac's

"Hey, Jack Kerouac")?

is asking, but I would like to say that I believe the Beat Movement SHOULD BE on

a comeback because they had some goods ideas. Now I aint talking

about robbing, drinking, and smoking pot no I am talking PHILOSOPHICALLy

I.e. as Jack Kerouac says in one of his earlier letters:

THOREAU WAS RIGHT; JESUS WAS RIGHT. IT'S ALL WRONG and I denounce it and

it can all go to hell. I don't believe in this society.

So as far as I am concerned that I why they should be reread and understood

because we need some change.

nick

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:51:15 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: dream film

Yeah, that's the way I feel about it. After looking forward to the movie of

EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES (thought it had a pretty good chance with the

right director) it turned out to be a disastor. So I'm definitely taking a

wait and see attitude with ON THE ROAD. To me the big name casting is a first

step in the wrong direction, but . . . we'll see.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:51:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vicente Garcia Pineiro <vgarcia@GOLIAT.UGR.ES>

Subject: Lars Dolf

In "demon box" by kesey....houlihan is neal cassady....

who is lars dolf?

vic

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 06:50:22 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

Subject: dream film

mmmmm....jack already wrote the film....maybe its too late to do it right...

low or big budget...i dont hink it makes much diff...a big budget file would

garner more attention & probaly be better funded but have possible outside

control..

i like Olivers Stones record of dealing with controversial americam myths

i: vietmam/jfk/the doors/NBK & media manipulations...so i'd give him the job..

as for actors well give cassady to william defoe & jack to Keanu Reeves...

i dunno why...

to beat or not to beat...there is no question...

john ..

john reeves voice--61 7 38445907

HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:03:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

How 'bout Dennis Quaid for Neal?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:15:36 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ralph Virgo <rvirgo@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

You wrote:

>

>I think that an interesting way to approach a filmed version of OTR

>would be to also consider the how and when of its having been written.

>As enthralling as the tale told is the story of Jack pounding away on

>the teletype roll, of Allen carrying the manuscript around, trying to

>hawk it to folks like Carl Solomon, and of Jack's world that followed

>Millstein's review in the NYTimes. End it with that wonderful, telling

>scene (I think this might be told in Desolation Angels... might be

wrong

>though) of Jack opening-up that crate of 1st editions, just as Neal

>comes into the room. There was something about Neal's expression that

>probably haunted Jack through many a happy hour.

>Whaddya Know,

>Jim Stedman

This is, in essence, what Carolyn Cassady's "HeartBeat" was. It was

made into a film with Nick Nolte more than passable as Neal, John Heard

pretty bad as Jack, and Sissy Spacek almost right for Carloyn.

I like the following for key roles in Coppola's "On The Road" film:

Brad Pitt..........Cassady

Andy Garcia........Kerouac

Gary Oldman........Burroughs

Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

Steve Buscemi......Huncke

Julianne Moore.....Carolyn

Drew Barrymore.....LuAnne

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 00:59:10 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: "Message to Garcia"

Just wanted to say thanks to the people who set me straight on "messages to

Garcia." You guys are so fucking erudite!

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 17:10:10 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Cal Godot <godot@WOLFE.NET>

Subject: Test

This is a test.

Cal McInvale JAZZ FLAVORED COFFEE

e-mail: godot@wolfenet.com

WWW: http://www.wolfenet.com/~godot/

--------------

What is most appealing about young folks, after all, is the changes,

not the still photographs of finished character but the movie,

the soul in flux. -- Thomas Pynchon

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 10:34:47 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

Subject: Re: Test

>This is a test.

>

>

IT WORKS

>Cal McInvale JAZZ FLAVORED COFFEE

> e-mail: godot@wolfenet.com

>WWW: http://www.wolfenet.com/~godot/

>--------------

>What is most appealing about young folks, after all, is the changes,

>not the still photographs of finished character but the movie,

>the soul in flux. -- Thomas Pynchon

>

>

john reeves voice--61 7 38445907

HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 14:04:27 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg on Rock & Roll (PBS)

Comments: To: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

In-Reply-To: <9509271927.AA67433@rs580a.haifa.ibm.com>

Yes, I'm in the "same boat" as Joseph Rodrigue, and would REALLY like

to know what Ginsberg said about rock music, etc....but am still waiting

for a reply to JR's post....(What TV show was Ginsberg on? A PBS "Special"?

And they were showing old footage of Kerouac's funeral? This was a special

show about the Beats, or specifically about Ginsberg?) fws, taipei

On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Joseph Rodrigue wrote:

> What's Ginsberg been saying about Bobby D, the Beatles etc? I'm out of the

> country and can't possibly see this. Thanks.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 15:36:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kathryn VanGundy <PrfEnglish@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Howl Obscenity Trial

A student in one of my classes is trying to locate some information on the

actual controversy surrounding "Howl" and the obscenity trial against it for

inclusion in an annotated bibliography. If anyone could provide

bibliographic information for such articles, my student would appreciate it!

We would also be happy to provide a list of what we find to the group, if you

would like.

Thanks!

Kathryn

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 15:46:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sherri Hoffman <shoffman@CREIGHTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Howl Obscenity Trial

In-Reply-To: <951001153607_33813460@mail06.mail.aol.com>

> A student in one of my classes is trying to locate some information on the

> actual controversy surrounding "Howl" and the obscenity trial against it for

> inclusion in an annotated bibliography. If anyone could provide

> bibliographic information for such articles, my student would appreciate it!

These web sites might prove helpful:

1. Banned Books On-line:

http://www.cd.cmu.edu/Web/People/Spok/most-banned.html

2. Literary Kicks (especially Ehrlich's HOWL OF THE CENSOR in the Ginsberg

bibliography):

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 15:05:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:03:52 -0400"

<950930090352_113039458@mail02.mail.aol.com>

YES YES YES Dennis Quaid oh Howard you are an exccellent fellow because I

was just thinkijng about this matter a few days ago well hours but so any

way I was thinking nobody has worried about the accent of Neal yelling

go go and bobbing his head like this crazy gone man DENNIS did in the

BIG BLUE OR THE Big Deal or the Big something in Lousiana and he is just

friggin perfect for the roll and but then I thought well who cares but

what a stupid idea to post such nonsense as theya ll are doing but now

that since you have agreed to me I must admit that HE IS AN EXCELLENT

Choice.

and also if you must be so FRIGGIN concerned with this film that will never

gbge as good as anybook anyway well I suggest that JACK ole buddy be portrayed

by that guy in Nell because of his stone face but yet he simply MUST get

rid of that damn IRISH Accent and then perfection.

Or all the characters could be ten year olds because On The Road is such a

childishly silly little book anyway as anyone who read the damn thing should

know.

nick

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:59:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Roth <BobR6969@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Howl Obscenity Trial

Kathryn:

I use The Portable Beat Reader by Ann Charters in my English composition

classes. There is some "good stuff" about the Howl trial in the text.

Bob

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 22:38:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

I say that most of the actors being considered or cast are too old. When

the OTR stories began Dean was 20 and Sal 25. Maybe Brad Pitt as Jack

would be near the age of the character.

I wonder how they will do the scene where the three of them all stripped in

the car. Later Dean stood naked at the side of the road like a statue as

the car drove past and looked. Are they going to have these big stars do

long extended completely nude scenes. I know, they'll show the girl.

And anyhow who cares who they cast for this turkey, the BIG question that

in my opinion will make or break this film...

Did Levi Asher get the part? He auditioned you know and I wonder if he's

heard back yet.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:19:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire <maguirem@CA.CCH.COM>

Subject: Tricycle

The following appeared in Sunday's TORONTO STAR:

"Do you think it's ironic, really, that the late Beat novelist Jack

Kerouac spent a good deal of his be-bopping, travellin' time writing a

pious, straight, passionate biography of Buddha?

The truth, as TRICYCLE, the Buddhist quarterly, says in its cover package,

is that the Beat Generation and its poets -- people like Allen Ginsberg,

Gary Snyder and others -- were essential in helping to transmit Buddhism

to North America.

The package is beautifully produced -- TRICYCLE is one handsome

publication -- and quite interesting and, by the way, Kerouac's tome on

Gautama will soon be out."

Anyone had a chance to read this issue?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:29:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Howl Obscenity Trial

In-Reply-To: <951001153607_33813460@mail06.mail.aol.com>

Have them look into Ann Charters' _Portable Beat Reader_ (254-63) and at

Barry Miles' _Allen Ginsberg: Howl (Original draft facsimile, etc.)_. New

York: Harper and Row, 1986. This has recently been reissued in paper and

is a gold mine of information on "Howl" and related matters. My students

and I find it fascinating.

Dan Terkla

Illinois Wesleyan University

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:57:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: howl obscenity trial

Make sure you look into "Howl of the Censor" Nourse Pub. Co. 1961

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:01:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To: <199510020538.WAA18075@hsc.usc.edu> from "Timothy K. Gallaher" at

Oct 1, 95 10:38:50 pm

> Did Levi Asher get the part? He auditioned you know and I wonder if he's

> heard back yet.

I can't understand it, but Coppola has not yet called. I'm thinking

maybe he mailed me a contract and it got lost. Damn post office.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:35:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Tricycle

Haven't read it, but I've seen it. It's excellent and worth getting.

Tricycle has also just published a book titled "Big Sky Mind" which

beautifully documents the beat influence and contribution to American

Buddhism.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:12:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Chicago Review

Anyone in or near the Chicago area should get hold of this week's READER

paper (a very fine free local paper). The lead article is the first part of

a wonderful piece on the first publication of _The Naked Lunch_ in extracts

in the Chicago Review; how the new Editor discovered the Beats and did two

issues, one on the San Francisco Poets and one on Zen Buddhism, with

Kerouac, Snyder etc ... how with Kerouac's help Burroughs started

corresponding with Irv Rosenthal, Chicago review's editor, and how Rosenthal

slowly started to extract increasingly more obsence pieces in each issue

(this after Ferlinghetti at City Lights and Rosset at Grove had rejected

it); how the Chicago Daily News ran a front-page article on the filth

emanating from the university of Chicago (which owned the Review) and the

amazing political/religious backlash that resulted from this - with

Rosenthal being kicked out of the University and forthcoming issues banned,

and the whole concept of the U of C protecting free speech (one of its

proudest claims) being sacrificed.

But it got Burroughs published and launched onto an unsuspecting world ...

Two points of Kerouac interest as well. -Old Angel Midnight_ was first

published in one of these issues, but was written as _Lucien Midnight_ until

Lucien Carr got out of jail and objected. Also ... to go back to a strand on

this list as week or two back ... Kerouac sent Rosenthal a letter in which

he insisted that Everything must be printed as submitted, even including his

typos. No editing, not even copy-editing. So to leave a printer's typo in a

Kerouac edition really is out of line (subtle publisher's joke there).

The article (continued next week) is by Gerald Brennan. It doesn't say who

he is but the name is vaguely familiar - anyone on the list know?

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:20:49 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Penguin SF Blues

I stopped by 4 bookstores in NYC this weekend looking through the new Penguin .

95 cent display racks for San Francisco Blues. All 4 stores were sold out of t

he Kerouac title. What's going on? Is someone hoarding? I hope Penguin is ru

sing additional copies to NYC book dealers.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:42:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dream film

>> Did Levi Asher get the part? He auditioned you know and I wonder if he's

>> heard back yet.

>

>I can't understand it, but Coppola has not yet called. I'm thinking

>maybe he mailed me a contract and it got lost. Damn post office.

>

I hate that Post Office.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:47:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Penguin SF Blues

>I stopped by 4 bookstores in NYC this weekend looking through the new=

Penguin .

>95 cent display racks for San Francisco Blues. All 4 stores were sold out=

of t

>he Kerouac title. What's going on? Is someone hoarding? I hope Penguin=

is ru

>sing additional copies to NYC book dealers.

You know, you could buy the complete Book of Blues.

But who am I to talk. I bought the 95 =A2'er. Those little $0.95 books are

great. All sorts of good stuff. I wish they would do this all the time.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:31:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Teslik <dteslik@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Tricycle

>The following appeared in Sunday's TORONTO STAR:

>

>"Do you think it's ironic, really, that the late Beat novelist Jack

>Kerouac spent a good deal of his be-bopping, travellin' time writing a

>pious, straight, passionate biography of Buddha?

>

>The truth, as TRICYCLE, the Buddhist quarterly, says in its cover package,

>is that the Beat Generation and its poets -- people like Allen Ginsberg,

>Gary Snyder and others -- were essential in helping to transmit Buddhism

>to North America.

>

>The package is beautifully produced -- TRICYCLE is one handsome

>publication -- and quite interesting and, by the way, Kerouac's tome on

>Gautama will soon be out."

>

>

>Anyone had a chance to read this issue?

>

I've leafed through....it looks wonderful. I love this magazine, have never

been disappointed by an issue.

-derek

--------------

Derek Teslik | "The young are the only ones who bring

Helter Skelter Magazine | anything into this world, and they are not

3519 Woodbine St. | young for long"

Chevy Chase, MD 20815 | -William S. Burroughs

--------------

--DTeslik@ix.netcom.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:48:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Sallee <Censorus@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Test

why assume, as the myths born of mass cunsumtion's imperatives would have it,

that the souls of the young are some how more in flux that those more

advanced along the path of maturity? I put it to you that that far from being

nearly so dynamic the younger soul is merely simpler and less articulated

that it will in time become. youth is boring but more easily manipulated

there in lyes it virtue to the myth makers

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:05:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject: Re: Dream film

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>>> Did Levi Asher get the part? He auditioned you know and I wonder if he's

>>> heard back yet.

>>

>>I can't understand it, but Coppola has not yet called. I'm thinking

>>maybe he mailed me a contract and it got lost. Damn post office.

>I hate that Post Office.

Is that the same Post Office Bukowski writes about? Must be.

In any case, it looks like Levi, because he was kind enough to mention the

CBA in his Beat News page, might get a shot playing for the Dharma Beats

cosmic baseball team, so, does he really need a Hollywood career...?

Levi, are you left-handed?

Catch you later,

Andrew

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:48:37 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Tricycle

Yes, a friend sent me the TRICYCLE issue and I read it and enjoyed it. I did

note a couple of factual errors. One article placed Big Sur north of San

Francisco(It's actually south of Monterey which is well south of S.F.); and

the other had to do with the date of composition of ON THE ROAD. I can't

remember exactly but the writer placed the date of composition at some time

other than 1951, by saying something like "It's been x number of years since

Kerouac wrote ON THE ROAD."

Anyway quibble, quibble, quibble. It's a good issue.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 19:03:13 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

QUIT BEAT-L

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:13:52 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

QUIT BEAT-L

john reeves voice--61 7 38445907

HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 22:15:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fugs Discography Update

Comments: cc: RHulvey@aol.com

Hello all,

This is Ross, again. I beg the indulgence of everyone.

I am sending an expanded version of my original post,

with corrections and additions. If anybody objects

to this being on the List, I'll refrain from doing it again

(but the discography will be available to any who ask).

Three people responded to my request for further

entries [and I thank them heartily]. Also, I dug a

path through my stacks of boxes of books and

records so that I could gain access to my own

collection of Fugs (having lived too long with

only cassette-dubbed copies of the albums).

Again, if anyone has additions, corrections, or

comments I will forever be in their debt. Please

respond directly to me (RHulvey@aol.com) or

the List, if appropriate.

And so, for the discography:

THE FUGS:

The Village Fugs

(lp, Broadside [Folkways] Records, 304, 1965)

First Fugs Album

[re-issue (I think) of above, often thought

to be THE first Fugs album]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1018, 1965)

(lp, Base Record, ESP-1018, nd)

The Fugs First Album

[re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

(cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The Fugs

[liner notes by Allen Ginsberg]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1028, 1966)

(lp, Base Record, ESP-1028, nd)

The Fugs Second Album

[re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

(cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The ESP Sampler

[Fugs, Holy Modal Rounders, et al]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1051, nd)

Tenderness Junction

[guests: Allen Ginsberg & Gregory Corso]

(lp, Reprise Records, RS6280, 1968)

Virgin Fugs

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1038, 1968)

(lp, Base Record, ESP-1038, nd)

It Crawled Into My Hand, Honest

(lp, Reprise Records, 1969)

(lp, Edsel Records, XED 181, 1986)

The Belle of Avenue A

(lp, Reprise Records, RS6359, 1969)

Golden Filth

[subtitled "Alive at the Filmore East"]

(lp, Reprise Records, RS6396, 1970)

Fugs 4, Rounders Score

[Fugs and Holy Modal Rounders]

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-2018, 1975)

Big Ego

[Fugs does "A Monologue,"

with tracks by other performers]

(lp, Dial-a-Poem, 1978)

Proto-Punk

[subtitled "The Fugs Greatest Hits, Vol. 1]

(lp, Adelphi Records, 1982)

(lp, PVC Records, 1983)

Refuse to be Burnt-Out

(lp, New Rose Records, ROSE 56, 1984)

(lp, Olufsen Records, DOC 5006, 1984)

Baskets of Love

(lp, Olufsen Records, DOC 5009, 1985)

No More Slavery

(lp, Olufsen Records, DOC 5001, 1986)

Star Peace

(2 lps, New Rose Records, ROSE 115, 1987)

Fugs Live in Woodstock

(cd, Musik/Musik, 1989)

Real Woodstock Festival

[should be released by now, but

haven't seen it yet]

(2 cds, Ace Records, 1995)

ED SANDERS:

Sanders' Truckstop

(lp, Reprise Records)

Beer Cans on the Moon

(lp, Reprise Records)

The Dial-a-Poem Poets

[Ed reads "Cemetery Hill"]

(lp, Dial-a-Poem, 1972)

Disconnected

[Ed reads "Stand by My Side, Oh Lord"]

(lp, Dial-a-Poem, 1974)

Biting Off the Tongue of a Corpse

[Ed reads "The Struggle"]

(lp, Dial-a-Poem, 1975)

Totally Corrupt

[Ed reads "This is the Age of Investigation Poetry

and Every Citizen Must Investigate"]

(lp, Dial-a-Poem, 1976)

One World Poetry: Live from Amsterdam

[Ed reads "Ban the Bomb (No Neutron Bomb),"

also readings from Burroughs, di Prima, etc.]

(2-lps, Milkway Records, 1981)

Songs in Ancient Greek

(cd, Olufsen Records, 1989)

The Best of Sanders

(cass., Ed Sanders, 1992)

Poetry in Motion

[Ed & others]

(cd-rom, Voyager Co., QT 11, 1994)

TULI KUPFERBERG:

No Deposit, No Return

(lp, ESP Records, ESP-1035)

(cd, re-issue [not confirmed])

Tuli and Friends

(lp, Shimmy Disc SHIMMY 020, 1989)

Rutles Highway Revisited

[Tuli does "Living in Hope." Also,

tracks by Peter Stampfel, et al]

(cd, Shimmy Disc, SDE 9028/CD, nd)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 22:04:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Subject: Re: Fugs Discography Update

In-Reply-To: <951003221542_115631326@mail06.mail.aol.com>

I have Tuli K.'s No Deposit No Return pressed in pure yellow vinyl.

The other copies I've seen of this disk are plain black vinyl.

Any word on how many were pressed yellow?

p g

o p s

c o u

t

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:16:41 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Why now

> For an article in New York magazine, why is Beat so hip in 1995?

Just as Kerouac et al spoke for a generation at the start of the cold war - a

time of great uncertainties especially for the young - so they are pertinent and

important at the end of it. Again we are in a transitory period, a time of

discovery, which started around Christmas 1990 with the coming down of that

wall. And what better than On The Road as our bible of exploration, in which

even crooked souls are holy.

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

Flat 3

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:58:22 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Penguin SF Blues

In your message dated Monday 2, October 1995 you wrote :

> I stopped by 4 bookstores in NYC this weekend looking through the new Penguin

> 95 cent display racks for San Francisco Blues. All 4 stores were sold out of

> the Kerouac title. What's going on? Is someone hoarding? I hope Penguin is

> rusing additional copies to NYC book dealers.

We don't have it at all in the UK, which I think is an outrage. Anyone what to

send me a copy?!....

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

Flat 3

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 00:01:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chasooki@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Chicago Review

Bill,

I'll keep an eye out for this article, but it doesn't usually come out to

Schaumburg. I'll also check our library.

Hope the Yankee game was good.

Marc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:32:37 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Chicago Review

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Oct 1995 00:01:05 -0400 from <Chasooki@AOL.COM>

Ah, the Yankee game was GREAT. The lead seesawed back & forth.

Fantastic pitching performances from Pettit, Wickman, Wetland, and most

of all, Rivera. 15 Glorious innings. Tom left at 12:30 because he had

to get up at 6:00 but yours truly stayed until the 15th inning homer by

Leyritz. I predicted Leyritz's homerunas well as his being hit by a

pitch in an earlier at bat. Highlibht of the night was back to back

homers by Sierra and Mattingly. Well, you can read about it in the

papers. I'd love to get tickets for the ALC playoffs. I'm off to

Lowelltomorrow for a Kerouac conference. Tom & Mike coming along for

the ride. Weather there is chance of rain, partly cloudly. Too bad,

because the changing leaves should be lovely about now. Don't go out of

your way for the article, it's no big deal. Have you got netscape

through aol.com or something like it? I'm finding more and more

interesting stuff including a home page for the Doors that was pretty

neat. As I said earlier, Yankee home page page is good too. Regards to

everyone.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:53:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Misdirected mail

My apologies to Beat-l readers. A personal message for Marc Chason was

accidently sent to the Beat-l list. Please ignore and delete.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:07:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire <maguirem@CA.CCH.COM>

Subject: Bill's personal message

Bill Gargan wrote:

>My apologies to Beat-l readers. A personal message for Marc Chason was

>accidentally sent to the Beat-l list. Please ignore and delete.

No way. That was the best post we've seen in a long time.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 22:14:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Chicago Review

Very nice. Why can't we all have interesting conversations like this one?

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 17:11:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marty Kinczel <MAK62@AOL.COM>

Subject: chicago

Hello to anyone/everone,

I am living in Chicago, and am looking for a beat friendly and aware

bookstore where I can find interesting titles published by past and present

beat writers. You can e-mail me at :

MAK62.aol.com

Thanks in advance for your advise.

M

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 21:51:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Subject: Re: chicago

Comments: cc: mak62@aol.com

In-Reply-To: <951006171117_38175888@mail04.mail.aol.com>

On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Marty Kinczel wrote:

> Hello to anyone/everone,

>

> I am living in Chicago, and am looking for a beat friendly and aware

> bookstore where I can find interesting titles published by past and present

> beat writers. You can e-mail me at :

> MAK62.aol.com

> Thanks in advance for your advise.

Bookworks on Clark and Sheffield.

p g

o p s

c o u

t

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 01:39:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Druschke <Greenplate@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: chicago

try Powell's on Lincoln or there is one in Hyde Park. great selection of

used and new, and cheap. good luck and happy hunting!!

greenplate.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 14:04:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Elizondo <jme5808@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>

Subject: Re: chicago

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <951007013947_118243064@emout06.mail.aol.com>

This isn't really Re: Chicago because I live in Texas, and not

Chicago. I used the reply so I wouldn't have to type out all of the

address because I am lazy. Anyway, I just wanted to say hello to all of

you out there, in here, or otherwise juxtaposed to SOMETHING.

I have read so much beat stuff that I wish I was beat enough to

be really beat, not tired, but beat. Sometimes I find myself quoting

J.K. or A.G or sometimes W.S.B in conversations that, in retrospect 20/20

vision, had nothing to do with anything beat. Psychosis? Probably.

I have a question as well. Does anyone truly DIG the cut-ups

that William S. Burroughs did? I have to say that I like to read them

whilest I am in another frame of mind (usually compliments of

psychotropic fun stuff), but when I read them in a "Normal" way, I can't

stand them. Hrmmm...Maybe that was part of the intention. I dunno.

Jeff

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:36:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Use of Beat frases under false Pretenses

Well Jeff as you state well

>I have read so much beat stuff that I wish I was beat enough to

be really beat, not tired, but beat.

>Sometimes I find myself quoting

>J.K. or A.G or sometimes W.S.B in conversations that, in retrospect 20/20

vision, had nothing to do with anything beat. Psychosis? Probably.

Now you are not alone, last night as I went about the town in a drunken

state of delirium, a la (for those french canadians in the abouts) any

one of JK's books I began to try to immitate Neal Cassidy in a very sad

attempt I might add. But anyway I do quote some of the stuff ffrom the

books as well usually always finding NO ONE UNDERSTANDS.

Now as for Burroughs I dont see how you could ever read it in a normal

state, because even if you began in a normal state you would soon be

changed into a state of delirium. And I may add that I completely do

not understand his words but somehow a picture of what is going on is

portrayed. In NOVA EXPRESS I can say I believe his only reason for

all the psychobabble is to get you so lost you wont realize that he says

he is just repeating himself and then does it, but that you would not

realize such. However if you look closely the whole thing is just a

repition of things in a different context I believe.

nick

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 14:47:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Six Gallery

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.91.951007135818.583125573A-100000@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>

from "Jeff Elizondo" at Oct 7, 95 02:04:12 pm

Is nobody going to mention that this is the 40th Anniversary of

the Six Gallery poetry reading?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 18:33:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "A.J. Pacheco" <KarenSaint@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Use of Beat frases under ...

Dig a world where would-be poets and heroes spend their nights

portraying such unparallelled icons as Cassady and Bill B. I find one of the

more attractive aspects of beatnikdom (did I just invent a word?) lies in its

obscurity. There's some sort of sinful gratification I get when I do or say

something beautifully beat and few or even none understand its brilliance.

Like so much sheep.

I'm off to a good old-fashioned nod and may I find that sweet place

where the poetry merges with the physics into something even stranger than a

dream. Lizards and mushrooms, toothless savage, drunken toad, cotton mouth,

cotton mind and nothing forgiven. A slow smile spreads across the face of the

devil.

Trip hard.

And never die...

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:23:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Great Poetry Reading .au files

I guess today is the 40th anniversary of the Six Gallery Reading. To

celebrate you can listen to Jack Kerouac read some of his poems (yes I know

he didn't read at the Six Gallery that day, but this is what we got).

Details follow.

Hey, someone named Wiegand (I'm sorry I don't remember his first name) put

up some great readings by Kerouac on a web page. The address is:

http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/~wiegand/jk.html

you can also get there through my page with Kerouac sounds

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

but the small snippets I put up pale in comparison to the six chunks of poetry

made available by Wiegand.

He put up readings from San Francisco Blues and Mexico City Blues.

The readings are from the 27th - 30th choruses of SF Blues and the 228th

and 229th choruses of Mexico City Blues.

They are long files but well worth the wait. I especially enjoyed Praised

Be Man, the 228th Chorus of MexCity Blues.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:56:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery

In-Reply-To: <199510072147.OAA19257@netcom.netcom.com>

It was mentioned, albeit briefly, at the Beat Lit Symposium at UMass

Lowell last Thursday. It hasn't, to my mind, received anywhere near the

attention that it should have. Thanks for reminding us.

Dan Terkla

Illinois Wesleyan Univ.

Bloomington, IL

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:18:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marty Kinczel <MAK62@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Use of Beat frases under ...

ya

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:47:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: chicago

on the cut-ups.....

............i've started them (from 'the 3rd mind') but find that i revert

back to some kind of linear 'auto-pilot'....although physically i 'read the

text', i am in search of the exact combination of words in the intro to

justify the risk of paper cuts..................

...............however.............they are fun to create and have performed

some.....................rene.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:35:06 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

Subject: ?

Comments: To: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

ahhh hows it going A....i seen u been busy ...disseminnating DATA......

very good...

i scored the latest NS & then deleted it after i sore the posts about

problems ..i wait till they fix the thing i think

am feeling better after a trip up the mountains over weekend....now back to

work ...

hits have jumped dramatically on the eyephonics site since i posted it on YAHOO.

we got a cool site of the day from some fellows in norway...i also

recomended obelisk ..

catcha soon ...john ....

john reeves voice--61 7 38445907

HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:56:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Gads I mIssed It!

I somehow had in my mind that October 13th was the 40th anniversary of the 6

Gallery reading and as I have been away from the list for a while it was not

until today that I noticed the October 7th date. I had posted earlier about

doing something to mark this and now, alas, I have missed it myself. Oh well

there is always the 50th! I have made zero progress as of late on the

database idea as my life has been all topsey turvey -- mostly in a good way I

might add. I am just finishing up the biography of Anne Sexton who was

certainly no Beat in the usual sense that it is used -- but she was certainly

raw not cooked, and in many ways like Ginsberg in that her poetry is naked.

Speaking of naked and confessional poets, I recently noticed that there is

a blurb by Robert Lowell on the back cover of my _Naked Lunch_ edition --

first U.S. I believe. Interesting that he would agree to do that.

All for now,

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:12:37 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Lowell Celebration

As Chairman of the event, I'd really like to hear from anyone who attended

the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac ! Festival. Any constructive feedback is

welcome, but if you have the time, answers to the following would help.

1. Did you like it?

2. What did you like best about the festival?

3. What did you like least?

4. Where did you come from?

5. How long did you stay?

6. What can we do better next year?

7. What shouldn't we change?

Thanks. If you want to reply privately- you can reach me at

mhemenway@igc.apc.org

Mark Hemenway

Chairman, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

P.S. If you didn't get a mailing this year, send me your postal address so

we can put you on the list.

P.P.S We will probably do a much smaller celebration in March again next

year.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:33:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gads I mIssed It!

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 10 Oct 1995 20:56:32 EST

You can be redeemed by doing something on October 21st, honoring Jack on

the day he passed away in 1969. In Marquette, up here on the north coast

of Michigan, we'll be celebrating with the second annual October In The

Railroad Earth festival.

Cheers,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:20:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Centing <rcenting@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Misdirected mail

In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:53:18 -0400 (EDT)

Beat-L:Richard Centing at Ohio State University does not want to receive

BEAT-L stuff anymore, Who can take my name off the mailings;or how do I do

it myself. If you can do it, please remove RICHARD CENTING.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 18:33:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Centing <rcenting@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Bill's personal message

In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Oct 1995 14:07:34 -0400

Dear BEAT-L:Remove the name of richard Centing from the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:29:24 +0100

Reply-To: ba493@fim.uni-erlangen.de

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sebastian Schaer <ba493@FIM.UNI-ERLANGEN.DE>

Subject: Re: Misdirected mail

>Beat-L:Richard Centing at Ohio State University does not want to receive

>BEAT-L stuff anymore, Who can take my name off the mailings;or how do I do

>it myself. If you can do it, please remove RICHARD CENTING.

You might have already received a few answers to solve this problem..

anyway ... if not try:

Send a message to: LISTSERV@UKCC.uky.edu

Name it as you like (this means: Subject: whateveryoulike)

Just write: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

and send the message...

that's it!

--

Nothing is faster than light...

...except bad news.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:51:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gads I mIssed It!

In-Reply-To: Your message <11OCT95.09248993.0017.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> of Wed, 11 Oct

1995 08:33:49 EST

When and where specifically in Marquette is it?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:02:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marty Kinczel <MAK62@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Gads I mIssed It!

Please give directions to this place in Marquette.

MAK62

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:44:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Off The Road

I know that most of you have probably read or at least heard about Off

The Road by Carolyn Cassidy, but if not I would sincerely advise it. Her

view of the behaviors of Neal and Jack and Allen (NC, JK, AG) are rather

different than portrayed in any of their books, poems, etc or in letters

they wrote.

Her view of Neal is especially interesting seeing as you come to understand

how his fly by night nature affected the people close to him.

Also I found extremely interesting the explanation of the relationship between

herself and Jack Kerouac which seems to be one rather hidden in other texts

altho illuded to.

I think Carolyn had/has (is she dead?) a lot of talent just as the others

did, but somehow she only got to use it in relating the story of the

beat writers. She has an excellent way of portaying emotions.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 15:18:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Off The Road

In-Reply-To: <01HWCYLKTNLE0067WT@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> from "Nicholas Herren" at Oct

12, 95 04:44:21 pm

> I think Carolyn had/has (is she dead?) a lot of talent just as the others

> did, but somehow she only got to use it in relating the story of the

> beat writers. She has an excellent way of portaying emotions.

Alive and well, living in England.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:04:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Generational Cycles

I'm new to the group (as of a few minutes as a matter of fact) and have been

reading up and about the Beats now for a little over the year. Not much of

a 21 year old scholar, but I chew them up as fast as I can still being in

college.

Anyhow, my major interest here in the 13 Generation is how the past is

influencing our current generational cycle and where it will take us. As a

reference to this strand, one of the wonderful books I'm in the middle of

now is Strauss & Howe _Generations: The History of America's Future,

1584 to 2069_ which is a wonderful book if you're interested in the social

ideology of the Beat generation aside from the movement itself.

My question (if I can ever get to the point) pertains to the mystery behind

the movement, what exactly sparked so many.. can I say conservative

minds to look at themselves as a serious social influence? I ask this

because the Beat movement was seen as a literary movement as

well as a social movement that affected us on a global scale. Being

that global communications weren't as strong as they are today, it

was obviously construed in different ways across the planet. Anoter

global revolution happened at the height of the Boomers generation,

which has been described as the primary reason for much of my

generations problems currently. At any rate, Feminism and African-

Americanism became a political past-time for many people, and

the world became involved in its ecological awareness and so on.

Well, we're at yet another age that is going to be adding to the

global evolution, except this time it's going to happen at a 14.4

baud rate (maybe a 28.8 given time), and I think that it is important

to recognize the trends in the past and how they affect us today

(such as the Beat movement). It is important for the global society

in general to recogize these trends, but it is more important for

the would-be leaders of our generations to know where the world

has led us.

So.. maybe I'm babbling, maybe I just read something that stuck

in my head and I used everyone as a vent.. I dunno. If this question

was either totally off-topic or too confusing to care about, ignore

me.. but this is something that I really am interested in.. as everyone

should be... if you have anything to do with the future that is..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:41:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

critter -

We found your mail rather encouraging. We are boomers, yet new to the Beat

scene, too. It's good that you are reading about Generational Cycles

pertaining

to the Beat movement and your expressed interest. In our opinion, JK , NC,

and AG

were far from conservative even though their contemporaries were. For the

most part,

that is. Keep up your interests and good luck at school.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:47:14 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Off The Road

Carolyn Cassady is very much alive and well and, last I knew, living in

England. She is a delightful woman. She has appeared in interviews in

Moody Street Irregulars and Beat Scene within the past year or so. Last

year, she did a small tour on the West Coast and stopped among other

places at the Monterey Bookstore and Cafe. And of course was prominent at

the 94 NYU bash. She is a talented artist and has made her contribution in

that field as well as in costuming and theater design.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:39:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: Gads I mIssed It!

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:02:38 EST

>Please give directions to this place in Marquette.

>

>MAK62

(there've been a number of requests for directions... I hope that folks

don't mind my posting this to the list...)

October In The Railroad Earth II

6:45 - 11:30 p.m., October 19, 1995

The Koffee Hause,

1125 N. Third Street

Marquette, MI

Arriving from Northern Wisconsin/Minnesota, take hwy 41/28 through Ishpe

ming and Negaunee and into Marquette. Head downtown, on Washington Stree

t, aimed right for Lake Superior. Turn left (going uphill) on Third Stre

et... it's the one with the post office on the corner. The Koffee Hause

is about 1/2 mile up Third, on the left.

Arriving from the lower Peninsula, take US 2, after crossing the Mackina

c Bridge, and turn north on Hwy 117 (at Engadine). This'll take you to h

wy 28, which you take west, through Munising. As you arrive in Marquette

follow the hwy until it becomes Front Street, turn left onto Washington

Street, and look for Third (see above)

Arriving from Southern Wisconsin/Chicago, take 41 north to Marinette/Men

ominee. Enjoy the lake route, and take Hwy 35 to Escanaba, where you joi

n Hwy 41, which'll lead you to Marquette.

Let me know if you can attend, and I'll watch for you...Let me know if y

ou want to read/perform, and I'll secure a time slot.

Hoo Hah!

Jim

QUIT

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:48:14 CDT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: bs at AUC <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Moody Street Irregulars

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:47:14 EDT,

mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM> wrote:

>Carolyn Cassady is very much alive and well and, last I knew, living in

>England. She is a delightful woman. She has appeared in interviews in

>Moody Street Irregulars

>

Could somebody post a mailing/subscription address for MSI, please...?

Thanks in advance -

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:17:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac poem

When's The Last Time You Arm-Wrestled At The Shoreland Bar?

(to be read at opening of October In The Railroad Earth II,

10/19/95)

Not much distance between here and red brick Lowell.

When's the last time you arm-wrestled at The Shoreland Bar?

My kids wonder why this is done,

this night again this year.

"It's in honor of them things passed," I tell 'em.

"It's my chance to stand up on the curb and wave at the parade,"

I tell 'em.

So...

here's to John Clellon Holmes, gone in October

here's to Ray Kauffman, gone in October

here's to Edie Parker Kerouac, gone in October

here's to Roy Buchanan and Muddy Waters and Charles Bukowski and

Jim Morrison and Janis and Jimi and Pigpen and Steve Goodman and

Ray Carver and Neal Cassady and the Ghost of the bloody

Susquehannah.

Gone, gone, gone.

Here's to crazy sweatstink hard workin sea captain Michael Dexter

Stedman, a vanished man and disappeared brother.

Here's to the tumbled bones of Jesse James, and scavenged burial

spot of Khufu,

the silt and weeded remnants of the Edmund Fitzgerald,

and those memories that we forbid to let rest.

There's voices released as we do our diggin' ---

I was thinking, that if the formation of crystals are

effected by things like temperature and pressure and

sound, then there must exist all around you the sounds

of creation... somehow stored and trapped in the

crystalled crust of your planet. Ladies and Gentleman:

the voice of Paul Revere, on the conclusion of his ride,

"Whoah, horse!"

Now, heaven hosts a scene that's gotta be killer-diller.

The second known meeting of Ti-Jean,

Jean Louis Lebris de Kerouac,

and captain Jerry Garcia.

The first time they met was in New York,

and a bus full of Jerry and Neal

wheeled cross-continent to Ginsberg's apartment

where the wild-eyed newsaints draped an American flag

over the sad and whiskey shoulders of

Armchair Daddy-o.

Slow Jack stood and folded the flag,

triangle-like,

giving the occassion a proper military funeral...

and the cats played taps.

Pete Seeger says: Take it easy, but take it!

John Montgomery said: Watch your feet when your skull catches the

beat!

and I say "welcome, eh?"

QUIT

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:27:39 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: msi

MSI has ceased. Mailing address has been discontinued.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:24:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac poem

In-Reply-To: <13OCT95.11116896.0085.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> from "Stedman,

Jim" at Oct 13, 95 10:17:36 am

Jim Stedman: nice poem!

> When's The Last Time You Arm-Wrestled At The Shoreland Bar?

> (to be read at opening of October In The Railroad Earth II,

> 10/19/95)

Tell us how it goes ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:04:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

Kerouac was a French Canadian Catholic who objectified women and had strong

feelings for the conservative movement is the 60s. When it was convenient, he

was liberal. Otherwise, he could be a stodgy, close-minded man.

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:19:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: msi

Moody Street Irregulars has ceased publication.

We have plenty of back issues for sale if anyone is interested in getting

them. $10 an issue. Contact us for issue number availability.

Betsy

Water Row Books

waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 22:16:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

>Kerouac was a French Canadian Catholic who objectified women and had strong

>feelings for the conservative movement is the 60s. When it was convenient,

he

>was liberal. Otherwise, he could be a stodgy, close-minded man.

I had read before that he was somewhat conservative, not to mention there is

an aire of it in some of his writings.. though I wouldn't have thought he

was

so far.. well, as right as you made his out to be. Catholic's are thought to

be

conservative for the most part, but there's something about a French

Canadian

Catholic that just sounds evil.. dunno.. I'm rambling..

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 22:43:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Trip Toner <ElTripo@AOL.COM>

Subject: cycles

May Iquote Burroughs.... in _JACK'S BOOK_

"he was an Eisenhower man and he believed in the old-fashioned virtues, in

America and that Europeans were decadent, and he was violenly opposed to

communism and any sort of leftist ideaologies"...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 23:22:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: The Short Hairs Are Taking Over

Section 1: The Short Hairs Are Taking Over

oThat esensual phosphorescence my youth delighted inE now lies

almost behind me like a land of dreams wherein an angel of hot sleep

dances like a diva in strange veils thru which desire looks and cries.o

- Lawrence Ferlinghetti, 26, _A Coney Island of the Mind_

Ive heard it announced over the loud-speaker at K-Mart that

Pretty soon the short hairs will all be taking over our inspiration

again.o Not since Kerouac drank his last whiskey have we felt the words

of a conservative fill this void we feed our poetry from, our artwork

from.. creativity will now shout in the voice of a short hair.

Walking along the side of the road down on 5th and Main, flipping

my quarter into the dusk which slowly filters in through the smog,

throwing a scarlet haze onto everything I hold true; I heard the beat of

an up-right bass, man in corduroy- dark corduroy, looking a little negro

as the night settled in. He turned around his cap and I saw- pushing its

way from underneath the rim- short hair, short dark hair, short dark

curly hair. I knew it wasnEt the end of anything.

A skateboard pounded down from a mid-air 360, baggy cut-offs, Rage

Against the Dying of the Light shirt hung dark on his back- he too, he

too sported a dyed head of short hair, short blue hair, short straight

blue hair.

I was there when it all came around. The heat was my enemy, I

sweated out each word from shaking hands.. shaking in fear I was, from

finger tip to psyche, scribbling on blank mocking pages: eThe short

hairs are taking over.. the short hairs are taking over.. the short

hairs are taking over.E It was a message I believe, a message from

something I couldnEt even begin to fathom. A message from something in a

golden throne, sporting short hair.

Then it occurred to me that maybe there was something vital in

this message. Something ancient inked dark on the body that was a tattoo

of non-conformity; something devilish in the hole that claimed those

noses, those ear-lobes, those eye brows, those tongues.. those rings

that moved in such a motion to hypnotize the cobra of modern. The cobra

of modern has reached its limit, it is now the aftermath of modern, life

is art, we as a nation of man have become art. We have become what is

known as postmodern, beyond modern, beyond reality.

Television station in the back of my head relays images of people

I have once loved, once destroyed, slept with or fucked with or fucked:

opinions separated for the conscientious objector. She was a small yet

beautiful child I saw, somewhere in her late teens- sixteen I believe-

and she was white as white as white can be, paper white and ever so

fragile. Her hair was black, an inviting black that moaned a sleeping

jazz. She smiled; from the tip of her hair swung threads, red threads,

blue threads, green, yellow, brown; on the tip swung bells singing to me

once again that she had transcended actuality, she was post to modern to

me.

Black woman, somewhat round, hair in braids a platinum blonde, sat

across from me at DennyEs and she was of this beast, this transcendental

modern beast. The table was filled with each creature a living art in

motion- poetry if you will, good poetry, happy poetry or sad poetry,

acid poetry, rust poetry, pot poetry, dope poetry, rap and blues, R&B

and melodic jazz.. make me a symphony of straight edge and queer, make

me a knight of the round table, I donEt want to sit with the squares.

I donEt want to sit with her and her melody, her Grateful Dead

tattoo and the dress she borrowed from a lover of mine and never

returned. That bitch is one step above a fag hag, sheEs a man hag. She

was something I considered to be past. I met her in harmony one evening

after a pint of Rocky Road and a six-ounce of Little Kings, Cindy Lauper

making waves on the radio, we two making noise in the back seat of my

Cutlass Sierra. The concrete cracked, the heavens squealed like metal on

metal, I knew I had touched two lips that were meant for a long hair. A

head of hair that catches dreams and never lets go. I dream catcher,

north, south, east, west, it all becomes a web that tangles me here in

my moment of glory: a two second orgasm that ends in regret.

Every eye around the table is another version of life to me, every

blink, every stare is dreaming of the stars: the farthest point they can

make it away from this night like they wish they did every night. One

man brushes up his chops, another talks about beating the under-aged

soccer-player with morals of a fag and holds his hands up to the Lord,

looking for salvation. Across from me a young poet that catches his

rhythm in every step he takes asks me for an opinion on clitoral

piercing, but unfortunately I havenEt had that pleasure. Neither have I

given nor received. What do I receive now that I too have become that

ever-dreaded short hair? What dreams have I caught and set free?

I have seen the world through an entirely raw set of jewels, I

have heard the city in ways never dreamt by the savages that carry their

weapons and demand their respect. Their is no blood on my hands, only

pumping through veins that call themselves immortal. I shall not die

before my voice is raised into the clouds where Wordsworth once

wandered. I shall wander to Indiana and find my friend Fensel for there

is a soul I truly admire. There is a man with a head on his shoulders, a

gut below his belt, wisdom in his throat, soul in the house that is his

heart. There is a man that is beyond the modern, there is a man that is

man.

But decidedly I am confused about the length of his hair. He is

catching those dreams as long hairs are bound to do so much better than

a short hair. Him, free from body ink and painful piercings; him, super

blue dog and roadhouse groupie; him, a cut of sliver floating in the

chalice filled with warm red wine- that is the order of the house, and

that is the visionary called poet called Fensel called man; long hair

extreme in a velvet pair of bell bottoms.

Where does this leave him: a dream catcher like most of the

others, unable to let them go, set them free as a dreaming dove of

splendor. If youEre gonna defeat the world, youEll need a clean set of

morals and dignity over-flowing like the seas. I have pride in that man

that lives up to those demands, but still I wonder with great admiration

what form of dreams he has caught in his hair.

As my mind wonders from Indiana to Ohio, and back around to Dayton

where we all came in to the 48th St. DennyEs to drink bad coffee,

licking the oil from our mouths as if this ritual of caffeine and

tobacco is something revisited from the ways of the American Indian. I

feel no red skin on the hand that is creating these words, I feel

nothing but a lack of pride in me: a German turned Redneck. I look to

find a sense of balance between the two but all I smell is alcohol. The

Germans were beer lords, and slaughters of the Jews. The Rednecks never

loved their niggers, and they never loved triumph over anything but

distillation and machinery. Is it pure what is made in America, or is it

simply American? American like myself. I only wish I knew.

This is nothing that I wish to claim as my own. This is another

form of technology, another version of a vision, a revision, a

maturation of the original draft that is my flesh. White I am, white and

male, and I ask the world: Who will represent me? Who will be what I

claim to love? Who will be the savior of this? I am a man free from

those chains of sexism and racism in my heart, but beyond all of

immortal veins, out to the white male exterior, I am forced back into

those shackles. I am forced behind a cigarette and a cup of coffee to

contemplate my existence.

The lines along the walls are jagged, the tiles are dusty, the fan

is making an eddy of the cigarette smoke, I flip an ash like a wild

loose comma into the sentence of an ash tray. More men pile into the

diner on Main, people are waiting: jive people calling me funky, telling

me donEt dis.. I donEt believe that I dis that often, I am white because

of that. There are red people, rednecks, briars, white trash of every

race. Is this my racism bleeding through my core? Classification is

racist, a long haired dreamer I once loved told me before he decided to

classify himself separated. So if you ainEt a black man, what the hell

are you? This is where we travel from Ohio, off the East coast and over

to Africa. I know of the jazz bars on the cape, I know of the women

their, the women and their blues. The women and my blues.

This is a land where we can define our heritage, or their

heritage: the heritage of African Americans, not quite African, not

quite American. Is this what anger can do, cause you to disassociate

yourselves from everything that is unlike you? Cause you to classify

yourself as separated and look for the benefits that is granted to

minorities?

I am a minority then. I am a minority that is American, truly

American.. nothing southern in these bones, nothing German in these

veins. I am not white, I am not black. I am not red, I am not brown. I

am simply a metaphor for inspiration. I am poetry, short haired poetry

hanging from lines on pages in newspapers or novels. I infest the

internet and the zines, the chapbooks and Norton collections. I am aging

slowly, using language and buying intelligence. I am at war, at odds and

ends with every single human that can not call themselves poetry.

We are a generation one step beyond metaphor, we are no longer a

representation of art, we are no longer the means to which art is

achieved. We are art. You there in your 60s stare, or the man in the

corner reading Ferlinghetti and Burroughs; you there in the motion of

American Dreaming, thinking Morrison is speaking to you as you copy the

lines to the movie of your mind down on coffeehouse napkins stained with

espresso. you there: you vampire, feeding on Gothic, looking to

supplement your diet with Poe. I know each and every one of you. I know

your days and your nights. IEve seen you in your butt-shorts at the

1470, IEve seen you in your dark shades with a crocheted goatee snapping

your fingers over at Front Street, IEve seen your trails of eye-liner

and base whipping through the metal detectors in the Asylum, IEve seen

you sweating with your Kurt Cobain memorial T-shirt under the sun and

straw at the Lollapalooza festival year after year after year. And I

believe I can say that I know you because I am you. I am of you.

Each human facet of this culture has been called a progression

from the Beats to the Hippies to the Punks and on to us. The problem

with this notion is that we are not able to be grouped together quite so

easily. Before me in the diner I see many people. Many people who at

once are easily tied together in a common culture. There are morays we

all hold true to in some sense. For instance, the peace and love culture

our parents paraded around half naked chanting is no longer valid to us.

We are more a culture of aggressive action. This is not to say that we

are violent- while much of our ways could easily be seen as violent- but

it is more an act of acting than an act of violence. There is anger

though in our hearts. We are angry that this machine of institution in

its many forms such as politics, religion, scholastics, capitalism, and

so on, is promoting what can simply be defined as stupidity. We are

angry that the dollar is the true Lord of the land and his father is

none other than Greed. These are the demons that have replaced the

heroes in our Bible, and we are angry that America still holds to the

lie that we are worshipping the Lord when in truth we are worshipping

ourselves.

Rimbaud attacked his motherland for ideals such as this, as did

many of the last centuries English poets such as Wordsworth, Shelly, and

others. Attacking the institution is not a new endeavor, our

predecessors have done this for countless centuries, as did those who

are believed to be the ancestors of our culture (Beats, Hippies, et al),

and it is sad to know that once these men obtain an office that would

allow them to change even the smallest portion of the problems they see,

they forget their youth and they forget they beliefs. It seems to me

that culture is something we mold in our youth and shatter in our age. I

only hope I am lucky enough to stay young forever, if not in flesh, then

in spirit.. this is why my veins consider themselves immortal.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 23:32:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Off The Road

>Moody Street Irregulars and Beat Scene within the past year or so.

I think someone already asked for one of these, but could someone

supply the list with both addresses or subscription information? I'd

really love to more about both of these..

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:24:42 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Kerouac poem

In-Reply-To: <13OCT95.11116896.0085.MUSIC@NMU.EDU>

that's a nice poem reminding me of the common attack on beat

poetry in 50's by "academic poets"....which is of course also

(ironically) also one of the great UNIQUE FEATURES and VALUES

of this poetry, namely it's "open form," free spontaneous flow

that ginsburg jazz-bops into in "Howl" (where he later talks

about it in terms of Kerouac-inspired long saxophone riffs etc)

clearly (as g says) inspired by kerouac.....

BUT for me yes on one hand i love the free-flowing jazz impro-

vised line tho on the OTHER i'm maybe too "academic" not to think

it's maybe done better in "Howl" (because more contrived, less

actually spontaneous?) than this K poem and maybe better in

Rimbaud's Illuminations (for the same reason) than either...?....

Olson is supposed to be Mr. Open Form coming from Pound and

Williams' Paterson, I prefer Pound to O or W for (I think) the

same reason again (though think W's short poems are great, and

am fascinated by O's long rambling (mildly insane) "projectivist"

ie fully phenomenological in the

MOMENT OF NOW BEINg-CREATED

verse.....)......fws

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:26:35 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: the theory flood continues (fwd)

Comments: cc: derrida@cfrvm.bitnet

wild cody

morse: di dad dit: gap forecloses

the Other, l'autre der Sprache, Langue, Tongue (pussy-slipped)

the split forecloses, (pre)supposes

mortgage, foreplay, assorted detritus

ballet tights, lyotards' balanced claims: "freud's dream-work

operates au contraire to rules of discourse"

and therefore in one sense "always already uncoded" in the

libidinal economy of fertilizer stores, the pure

(un)structured textualization of underpants:

"Oh great Redeemer! Who hast not Foreclosed

on my Soul's Mortgage!" who has not de-coded pre-coded or

unduly pre-cluded mah poor sickly

fin-de-siecle ego constructed out of discourses like so many

disentangled entaglements of plasticized, elasticized

suspender straps

to wit: late 20th c. semio-linguistico-linguini obsessions

perambulated intertwixt (and/or smOthering) ab-original

Sprache als Geist, language as all-permeating Divine Voice

(vox broccoli)

dih-dah, dih-dah-dit.....

fws

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:28:58 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: discussion of Rossetti's "Goblin Market"

Comments: cc: derrida@cfrvm.cc.ntnu.edu.tw

"honey out of sweetest carcass" = "meaning" (oder "meinong")

spewn headlong out of decaying (radioactive half-alive) signifier-

signified GAP that is (quintessentially) langue, LANGUAGE

(vide derrida's deconstruction of heidegger's Being/auld lang Sein

as "divine voice" a la "Anaximander Fragment" in "Differance")

viewed this way we may place the Biblical/Divine/Spiritual

ideas/

feelings/mere (mesozoic) intentions in their proper CONTEXT:

the (late 20th c. obsessional) free autoerotic play of (all too

human) WRITING which has gone ("literally") out of its mind......

fws

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:30:22 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: can u spot the "parodic insertion" into text?

Comments: cc: derrida@cfrvm.cc.ntnu.edu.tw

in a nutshell, as i see it:

rousseau, saussure et al: writing expresses (transcribes)

speech, speech expresses a (we somehow imagine as transcendent)

"meaning" BUT this whole logocentric transcenence of "meaning"

to language bag is somehow deluded so let's get back ("GET BAAAACK

.....to where you wanna be.....") to the "bottom line" or rather

the all-pervasive ground (which is really un-ground, abgrund,

abyss), "writing" (which never pretended to have meaning present-

to-itself but rather always embodies absence, trace, etc etc etc)

but also true jd is talking about "arche-writing" (as is clear in

1st interview in "Positions") that "underlies" both (actual or

"physical") speech AND writing......

but this whole (saussurian, saurian) scheme of things presupposes

ALPHABETIC LANGUAGES....pretty Eurocentric, no? which is why this

all became clearest to me in "The China Question" in "Gramma-

tology" where the sense of the gramme or arche-writing is related

both to "algebra" (math/logic is "outside" logocentric "speech,"

right? but still a language in sense of "writing"?) and to Shang

Dynasty (before 1000 BC) Chinese oracle-bone divination, in which

the "divine voice" appears randomly/arbitrarily as CRACKS

("writing") on burned turtle shells....(mere external memory as

repetition as against Platonic recollection, PLUS--see all you get?!--

the notion of "fate" (and/or divine necessity or Meaning) as free-play

and randomness....(vide Mallarme, Nietzsche, Deleuze on "a throw

of dice," etc etc etc)....

ie (another way to look at it): eurocentric thinking is "cracked"....

fws

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 09:19:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kurt Voelker <KVoelk@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: cycles

I think Eltripo has hit the nail on the head. Kerouac certainly defied

convention in action but hung violently to conservative beliefs when it came

to his thinking. There is a good Kerouac interview in the CD collection _The

Beat Generation_ in which he spells out this seemingly paradoxical stance.

Kvoelk

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 13:20:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mat Awad <mawad01@MAIL.ORION.ORG>

Subject: Re: cycles

In-Reply-To: <951013224349_44180114@mail04.mail.aol.com>

I think JK was the type who appreciated the idealism and possible

fruits associated with communism. But, at the same time I know he

encountered the backlash that perhaps all idealogies fall prey to--human

nature. To follow/believe in an ideal is one thing, to practice it

within the framework of human existence is quite another.

WAD

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 20:49:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Viola Weinberg <Vcweinberg@AOL.COM>

Subject: Upcoming Kerouac Reading

October in the Railroad Earth

On Sunday, October 29, 1995, 7:30 p.m. the annual Kerouac reading will take

place at Melarkey's Bar and Grill/1517 Broadway/Sacramento, CA.

There Will Be Eight Beats to the Bar--

* D.R. Wagner

* Viola Weinberg

* B.L. Kennedy

* Robin Rule

* Andy Clausen

* Daniel Essman

* Crawdad Nelson

& of course, Jack Kerouac (in spirit)

Music by:

* Steve Vanoni

* Tom Fay

* Big Z

* & others

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 19:36:09 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rudy De Waele by way of reeves@odyssey.com.au john reeves"

<isdm@INNET.BE>

Subject: http://www.innet.net/brussels-arts/ISDM.html

Comments: To: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

jo guys,

the 1st page of isdm 2.0 is launched.

i've tested it out with NS 2.0 but had problems with the gif-transparancy.

can you check this out and tell me how it looks?

meanwhile, i'm going on fixing those terrible new NS 2.0 extensions...

sys,

rudy.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

vzw ISDM asbl

INTERACTIVE STUDY AND DOCUMENTATION ON MULTIMEDIA

Rue Roosendaelstraat 146

1190 BRUSSELS

CONTACT:Rudy De Waele

Tel/Fax:00 32 (0)2/346 65 01

isdm@innet.be

http://www.innet.net/brussels-arts/ISDM.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 15:35:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: http://www.innet.net/brussels-arts/ISDM.html

I don't know about NetScape 2.0, but using Amerika-On-Line's so-called

Browser (actually, it's not such a bad Browser), I am unable to scroll down

the entire page once it's loaded. What I could see looked very nice, however!

(-:

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 08:50:40 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

Kerouac's more obvious political leanings have a much more complex

background than is answered simply by his being Catholic. That well-

rooted (or root-rotted) Western Catholic background fell into

profound conflict with his Eastern beliefs, and I think this tortured

him--tore him, in fact, in two.

Even a lot of what he wrote in ESCAPADE, or blathered over the

airwaves late in his life was not so much the man espousing his true

and heartfelt beliefs (though it wasn't purely a ruse, either), but

(and I don't know if I can say it without resorting to the platitude,

true though it remains) it was the man playing a character, part

real, part invention borne of distrust for everything outside that

for years since ON THE ROAD was published had tried to bully its way

into some crazy interpretation of what he was about. And knowing it

all an illusion anyway (something I think he did hold to, knowingly,

despite any apparent Catholic/Buddhist contradiction or hero worship

of Wm Buckley or anyone else), the role he acted out before a public

that he knew was not real, was that of playing the ZEN LUNATIC.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:17:14 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:04:22 -0400 from

<HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 17:04:22 -0400 Laurie Syrek said:

>Kerouac was a French Canadian Catholic who objectified women and had strong

>feelings for the conservative movement is the 60s. When it was convenient, he

>was liberal. Otherwise, he could be a stodgy, close-minded man.

>

>Laurie

Kerouac may not have held enlightened, modern attitudes towards women

but I think it's wrong to say that he was closed minded. It seems to me

that he was incredibly open-minded, open-minded enough, for instance, to

embrace either conservative or liberal ideas when he thought they were

right; open-minded enough to accomodate his Catholicism to Buddhism;

open-minded enough not to condemn beliefs or lifestyles that he did not

necessarily hold valid. I like to think that Kerouac posessed the

quality that F. Scott Fitzgerald defined as genius:--the ability to hold

two contridictory thoughts in the mind at the same time without being

paralyzed by them.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 08:57:47 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

>Kerouac's more obvious political leanings have a much more complex

>background than is answered simply by his being Catholic. That well-

>rooted (or root-rotted) Western Catholic background fell into

>profound conflict with his Eastern beliefs, and I think this tortured

>him--tore him, in fact, in two.

I don't think Kerouac saw any conflict between Catholicism and Buddhism.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:21:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil McCray <pam3@POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

>When it was convenient, he

>was liberal. Otherwise, he could be a stodgy, close-minded man.

As Clay Vaughan rightly puts it:

>>it was the man playing a character, part

real, part invention borne of distrust for everything outside that

for years since ON THE ROAD was published had tried to bully its way

into some crazy interpretation of what he was about.

Or, if I may, it points out that Kerouac didn't live

inside rigid attributions and characterizations,

but within his half-dreamy fluctuations of spirited

sensitivity, seasoned with alcohol and depression.

It's our fortune that he shared it all with us.

Phil McCray

Cornell University Archives

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:33:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

Without belaboring the point, the kind of conflict I believe Kerouac

might've experienced would be akin to those attachments that

Catholicism espouses in doctrine and dogma (all of this, by the way,

embodied physically AND spiritually in the figure of Memere, something

all its own that was daunting to him, no doubt, beyond description),

and the relative freedom one finds in the empty canvas of unfettered

experience, direction unrelated to paths set up a priori, which

might accurately characterize the Eastern mind.

Don't get me wrong, the man had marvelous ability to balance, however

precariously, two opposing thoughts simultaneously and without

apparent confusion. I use the word APPARENT because, really, we'll

never know what went on in that man's so complicated head.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:21:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

Subject: kerouac ROMinbus -Reply

Comments: To: ccook@tiac.net

The Jack Kerouac ROMnibus ships to book and computer stores next week on October

23, 1995.

I promised I would supply more information at the time of release, so here is

the press release:

(Warning: long posting...)

A Jack Kerouac ROMnibus

A CD-ROM for Macintosh and Windows Computers

*The only way to organize what you are going to say about anything is to

organize it on a grand and emotional scale based on the way you*ve felt about

life all along.* *Jack Kerouac

Jack Kerouac is one of the most widely read and influential writers in the

twentieth-century American canon, and his novels have galvanized several

generations of artists and young Americans. Between 1950 and 1968 Kerouac*s

prolific writing filled 14 novels, several collections of poetry, and numerous

essays and articles. Kerouac*s work is currently enjoying a widespread

comeback in popular culture, with tremendous appeal to members of Generation X.

Now, Viking thrusts Jack Kerouac into the forefront of the digital age with A

JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus CD-ROM (Penguin Electronic; October 16, 1995; Dual

format; $49.95). This interactive project, co-published by Mind in Motion and

Penguin Books USA, breaks new ground in literary multimedia. Collaborating

with the Kerouac estate, writer Ralph Lombreglia and documentary filmmaker Kate

Bernhardt have produced and directed a comprehensive work no Kerouac student or

fan should be without. From Jack Kerouac*s

performance on the *Steve Allen Show* to the extensive research functions

available for exploring Kerouac*s texts, and with close to two hours of

exclusive high-resolution video and audio footage of Kerouac and other Beat

generation writers, A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus explores the life and writing of a

cultural icon in a previously unimaginable manner.

A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus contains:

* THE DHARMA BUMS

The complete text of The Dharma Bums forms the heart of the program. Each page

of the novel is filled with textual, audio, and video annotations. Clicking on

a highlighted word produces pop-up annotations on everything from hopping a

freight to San Luis Obispo to Charlie Parker. For example, click on the words

*San Luis Obispo* and a map and description pops-up. Click on *Charlie Parker*

and a musical recording of Charlie Parker plays alongside text explaining his

influence on Kerouac and his writing.

* THE KEROUAC SAMPLER

Containing twenty-eight performances of selections from Kerouac works, including

Mexico City Blues, Visions of Cody, The San Francisco Blues, and The

Subterraneans, this selection includes recordings of Kerouac, Beat biographer

Ann Charters, Michael McClure, and David Amram and Graham Parker*some made

especially for this production.

* JACK AND THE SAN FRANCISCO BEATS

A Beat family tree maps out the romances, mentor relationships, breakups, and

cohabitation among key Beat figures. It also includes pictures and biographies

for each person.

* LIFE AND TIMES

A timeline illustrates a year-by-year breakdown of events in Jack Kerouac*s

life, featuring expandable graphics and simultaneous world events and literary

landmarks.

* THE GALLERY

This section features a dozen original, never-before-published drawings and

paintings by Kerouac himself. The Kerouac slide show gives a guided tour of

his artwork, snapshots from the family photo album, and photographs of and by

other Beats.

* THE ARCHIVE

Never-before-released memorabilia from the Kerouac estate includes facsimiles

and transcripts from Kerouac*s journals, correspondence, and personal

artifacts.

*EXTRAS

Jack Kerouac*s *backpack* contains all of the audio and video clips found in the

CD-ROM, an essay on the Beat Generation by Ann Charters, credits, sources, and

copyright information. Original music, composed especially for A JACK KEROUAC

ROMnibus, serves as background for each section.

In addition to the main Kerouac menu, special interactive features have been

added to help the user research, obtain, and save information:

The Picture Cursor enlarges most pictures into full-screen graphics that can be

moved around the screen for easy viewing.

Bookmarks allow the user to select certain passages from The Dharma Bums for

study and mark passages to return to later.

The Index allows the user to browse the novel*s annotations alphabetically, by

chapter, or by three sub-topics, Buddhism, Jack Kerouac, or People.

The Search Engine instantly locates words or phrases throughout the text of The

Dharma Bums.

With its easy-to-use format, A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus will take you on an

unmediated, multimedia adventure into the world of Jack Kerouac and the culture

he epitomized. From the first train you hop with Ray Smith, to the last

mountain you climb with Japhy Ryder, you will never experience Jack Kerouac and

the Beats quite the same way.

A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus is the second addition to an expanding series of quality

literary multimedia titles from Penguin Electronic that includes The Crucible

CD-ROM and the forthcoming Of Mice and Men CD-ROM (November).

# # #

A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus

Published by Penguin Electronic

Dual Format: MPC & MAC

Suggested Retail Price: $49.95

ISBN: 1-57395-002-5

UPC: 0-51855-00002-8

Technical requirements:

Windows

> 486 or Pentium processor

> Double-speed or faster CD-ROM drive

> Windows 3.1 or later (including Windows 95)

> 256-color SVGA monitor

> 8 MB RAM

> 2 MB hard disk space available

> Speakers and headphones

> 8- or 16-bit Sound Blaster or compatible sound card

Macintosh

> LC III series or better

> Double-speed or faster CD-ROM drive

> System 7.0 or higher

> Color monitor

> 8 MB RAM

> 2 MB hard disk space available

For information on Penguin Electronic CD-ROMs, send E-mail to

electronic@penguin.com or visit the Internet site: http://www.penguin.com.

About the Producers

A JACK KEROUAC ROMnibus was developed with Penguin Electronic by Mind in Motion,

a North Carolina-based producer of multimedia products, including general

interest titles in the areas of literature, art, science and history.

The project was spearheaded by the Boston-based husband-and-wife team of Ralph

Lombreglia, author of two short story collections, Men Under Water and Make Me

Work, and Kate Bernhardt, a documentary television and multimedia producer

whose credits include programs for the PBS series *Nova,* *Odyssey,* and *The

Brain.* This is their first joint project.

>>>>>>>>>>

I suggest posting release dates for items such as these. I went to a couple of

bookstores in Harvard Sq. in Cambridge, MA and they were not familiar with

this title. I am not sure if it is not out yet or if they aren't planning to

get it, the staff at the 2 stores I went to were somewhat "in the dark". Has

the Kerouac CD-ROM been released?

Thanks,

Chuck C

<<<<<<<<<<

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 22:46:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tanya Hicks also looking for availible copies of

<Dharma1020@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: cycles

excerpt from interview with Ben Hecht(the Beat Generation CD Vol.3)

Hecht: Do you like politics?

JK: No

Hecht: Do you like the Republican party?

JK: I like Eisenhower, as a man, he's a great man, a nice man

Hecht: Why do you think he's a nice man?

JK: He's the kind of man, you know, you'd like to shake hands with.

He's a nice man. You know he's a nice man. I don't really think about

politics( I think this is what he says, its somewhat mumbled)

Hecht: I adore Mr. Eisenhower but I don't think he's a great man or even an

intelligent man.

JK: He probably is, you know the American people probably don't realize what

he's doing.

Hecht: What's he doing?

JK: I don't know, we'll figure it out in 50 years. In 50 years you can look

back.

Hecht: I think he's one of the leaders of the Beat Generation. (JK laughs)

I think he's turned his back on us, just as you boys have.

JK: No, no

Hecht: Are you going to vote the next election?

JK: I've never voted. I shouldn't be proud of never having voted. But i never

have i don't know what's the matter....

and the interview goes on more about politics, etc.........

It's a great Box Set, worthy of purchase...........................

if for nothing but Ginsberg's reading of "America"

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:41:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re[2]: cycles

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Mon, 16 Oct 1995 21:46:38 EST

In the _Kerouac_ movie, Burroughs stated that he always felt that Jack

was apolitical.

QUIT

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:36:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

Has anyone seen the new Volvo commercical with someone (who is that?) reading

from _On The Road_?

Really, what has this to do with Volvo? If there is one car made in that

last 20 years that I cannont picture J.K. driving, it would most decidedly be

a VOLVO! They're nice and safe, expensive, and totally without soul.

Tehy're YUPPIE cars, in the words of a local used car dealer.

Whose idea was this? Am I the only one who cringes everytime s/he sees this?

DustyJade

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:21:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

"Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM> wrote:

=Has anyone seen the new Volvo commercical with someone (who is that?) reading

=from _On The Road_?

Egads! And yet...and yet...the pure irony of it forces me to crack a grin.

--Bonnie

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:24:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J. Darren Bishop" <URJTVAB@IUP.BITNET>

Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

I don't know...I think that Volvos are a very revolutionary kind of car...right

up Jack's alley

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:31:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: car commercials

The least they could have done was use a Chevy. "See the U.S.A. in your Chevro

let...."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:54:47 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Eric Simpkins <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: car commercials

Hate to get off the subject of the Beats, but I will get back on the subject

later. The "they" work for volvo, so why on earth would they use a chevrolet?

Anyway, I am new to this, and have so far just been reading, so I was wondering

if anyone ever heard AG's "Holy Soul Jelly Roll?" I have the collection, and I

think it is wonderful. I have only been into the Beats for about a year, and AG

is definitely my favorite beat poet. But I was wondering if he, or any other

beat has other CD's out. I love to read their poetry written down, but

something special is added by hearing the poet read it aloud. Also, I was

wondering if AG would be reading anytime soon in the SF Bay Area. Thanks for

any help you could give.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 20:04:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J. Darren Bishop" <URJTVAB@IUP.BITNET>

Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Subject: Re: kerouac ROMinbus -Reply

Has anyone ever heard Jack's box set (I'm not really even sure what it is

called)? I saw it once at a bookstore, but didn't have the money to buy it at

the time (or probably now for that matter); nevertheless, I am curious to hear

anything about it.

Also, not to get off the subject of the Beats too far, but does anyone know

about any Camus discussion groups? Just curious.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:31:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

I had a similar reaction hearing the beatles Revolution selling Nike, Janis

Joplin's mercedes Benz selling Mercedes Benz.

We ought to get used to it.

Its just too bad Kerouac wasn't alive to have this happen. he could have

used the money.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:59:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Cal Godot <godot@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Catholicism vs. Buddhism

Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself:

I am large, I contain multitudes.

--Walt Whitman

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:03:30 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

In your message dated Thursday 12, October 1995 you wrote :

> My question (if I can ever get to the point) pertains to the mystery behind

> the movement, what exactly sparked so many.. can I say conservative

> minds to look at themselves as a serious social influence?

The Bomb.

Budger of history Brake of time You Bomb

(Gregory Corso)

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

Flat 3

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 21:38:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac ROMinbus -Reply

I just purchased the Kerouac Box Set collection from Borders. I am new to

the Beat scene also and I suggest these recordings to anyone just getting

started as well as the veterans in the field. It consists of Jack reading

his own poetry and prose. I suggest the purchase of the CD's because you can

find the selections a lot easier. Good luck and enjoy!

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 08:18:10 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95101610294605@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:

> Kerouac may not have held enlightened, modern attitudes towards women

> but I think it's wrong to say that he was closed minded. It seems to me

> that he was incredibly open-minded, open-minded enough, for instance, to

> embrace either conservative or liberal ideas when he thought they were

> right; open-minded enough to accomodate his Catholicism to Buddhism;

> open-minded enough not to condemn beliefs or lifestyles that he did not

> necessarily hold valid.

Ah, the remaking of an American legend.

Kerouac adapted the role of the vagabond from twenties hoboes and Han

Shan and Bohemian legend and he partook of the eastern mystic craze

because everyone else was doing that in those years and he absorbed the

arch-conservative red-baiting slogans from William F Buckley because

this was a rich Irish guy he admired who was loosely associated at times

with his gang at Columbia. He grew weary of the road, he in later life

claimed to be just jiving Snyder with his buddhist role, and he was

quite bleary and silly in explaining even his own sic transit. As he

wrote quite clearly in _Subterraneans_, `...you're an idea man and I'm a

wordslinger...'

He was the best at what he did, which wasn't politics nor philosophy.

Anytime he tried to extend that role, as say a public personality, he

fell flat on his face.

> ...open-minded enough not to condemn beliefs or lifestyles that he did

> not necessarily hold valid.

If _Dharma Bums_ is not a pure indictment of the vapid compromise which

was middle class America in the fifties, such never existed. And in

that same volume there is suggested another paradox from all the holy

mystical deploring of the Blue Eye and packaged soap `they secretly want

to eat in their viney sweetsmelling bathrooms.' Gary Snider, after

ridiculing phony middle American ideals for extended passages, was too

embarrassed to go with the boys into the roadhouse because it was too

dressy and they had spent two days on Matterhorn without benefit of that

packaged soap. His `Achille's heel', as K called it.

> I like to think that Kerouac posessed the quality that F. Scott

> Fitzgerald defined as genius:--the ability to hold two contridictory

> thoughts in the mind at the same time without being paralyzed by them.

No evidence he held even one for very long. It would have been only

borrowed, after all.

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 21:29:15 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Ginsberg at Royal Albert Hall

Saw Ginsberg at the Royal Albert Hall yesterday at 'Return of the Reforgotten' -

pretentious name for Ginsberg's return to the RAH after 30 years. It was quite

something - Anne Waldman was there as well, as was Paul McCartney, who jammed

with Allen at the end. Was anyone else on the list there?... He plays at Heaven

Beneath the Arches on Thursday.

Oh, we're talking London, by the way.

Simon

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 07:35:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

In-Reply-To: <951017183652_47058254@mail02.mail.aol.com>

I, too, have seen this abhorrent ad, as well as the print version in

_Time_ magazine. I played Kerouac reading from _OTR_ and _Visions of

Cody_, accompanied by Steve Allen on piano, for my class the day after

finding the thing in _Time_. We discussed the commercialization, the

gruesome commercialization, of dead "celebrities" and concluded that,

indeed, the last car Kerouac would endorse would be an 850 Volvo wagon.

I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell their

vehicles last year on TV, but somehow this Volvo ad is more disgusting.

Perhaps I'm just too much of a romantic, but this sort of thing turns my

stomach. JK might have worn khakis, but he damn sure wouldn't have put

out $30k+ for a family wagon.

Dan Terkla

Illinois Wesleyan University

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:33:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac ROMinbus -Reply

Without foaming at the mouth over the insights one gains listening to

JK's voice, his attitude toward his work, himself, etc, I think all

would concur in saying GIVE IT A LISTEN. There's more in this set of

recordings than you would imagine, and there is something new to hear

in listening over and over to the intimacy of the man's voice and

depth of expression. Even comments you might think of as throwaway

have something in them worth paying attention to.

And speaking of recordings, has anyone heard and/or have reactions to

Terry Riley's setting of some of Kerouac's MEXICO CITY BLUES? Last

Sunday on NPR (St Paul Sunday), a group of singers directed by Paul

Hilliard, I think, did an a capella version of some of them. And they

are recorded on an album of Terry Riley's called SEVEN PASTORALES.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:03:10 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: other recordings, spoken or sung

I'd like to think I keep up with recordings that are out there,

either spoken or set-to-music pieces of the work of Beat writers, but

I'd be interested in knowing what anyone else is listening to, or has

come across out there.

There's that Phillip Glass thing, HYDROGEN JUKEBOX, Steve Swallow's

record of music set to the words of Robt Creeley (I forget the name

of the voice, is it Carla Bley?), the Terry Riley disc, and that old

Mark Murphy jazz thing, BOP FOR KEROUAC (old, and I'm not sure it's

weathered well, I haven't given it a listen in a long while)... and

of course there are those box sets people have been talking about. I'm

of two minds about the BEAT GENERATION one, there is so much

embarrassing nonsense, Time-mag mentality on it, that the real WORK

suffers in its company.

I've not been involved with this server long, and so it may be this

is one discussion that's been hashed and re-hashed ad nauseum. I just

thought I'd throw this out for responses....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:17:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

In-Reply-To: <951017183652_47058254@mail02.mail.aol.com>

Actually, JK thought about making a Volvo commercial after he got famous,

but, alas, it never happened. It would be a classic, worth tracking

down, if it existed.

Cheers.

Al

On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Karen L. Becker wrote:

> Has anyone seen the new Volvo commercical with someone (who is that?) reading

> from _On The Road_?

>

> Really, what has this to do with Volvo? If there is one car made in that

> last 20 years that I cannont picture J.K. driving, it would most decidedly be

> a VOLVO! They're nice and safe, expensive, and totally without soul.

> Tehy're YUPPIE cars, in the words of a local used car dealer.

>

> Whose idea was this? Am I the only one who cringes everytime s/he sees this?

>

> DustyJade

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:26:39 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: other recordings, spoken or sung

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:03:10 EST

I agree with Clay about the Beat Generation box set. It is a

curiosity... but seems to take its cue from the Fred McDarrah ("Rent a

beatnik") side of the tracks.

The _Dharma Bums_ (read by Ginsberg) and _On The Road_ (read by

Carradine) are issued as books on tape. There is also some Cassady stuff

put out by Ken Kesey's group... and hearing C's voice adds that other

dimension also talked about regarding Jack's recordings. It's a voice I'

ve heard tell me a thousand crazywonderful stories in a thousand bars.

I am interested in knowing if any of the radio interviews that Jack did

up in Lowell (with the Jarvis') exist on tape. Mark H. -- any lead on an

y of that?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:27:51 CDT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: bs at AUC <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Karen L. Becker wrote:

> Has anyone seen the new Volvo commercical with someone (who is that?) reading

> from _On The Road_?

>

> Really, what has this to do with Volvo? If there is one car made in that

> last 20 years that I cannont picture J.K. driving, it would most decidedly be

> a VOLVO! They're nice and safe, expensive, and totally without soul.

> Tehy're YUPPIE cars, in the words of a local used car dealer.

>

The Volvo people seem hell-bent on making fools of themselves. They are

also currently running commercials where they use the old Byrds song

"Ballad of Easy Rider" - imagine Peter Fonda/Dennis Hopper's characters

riding Volvos, anyone....?!?

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:47:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Volvo commercial

Remember that 'they' can't use _On The Road_ without the approval of the

Kerouac Estate. That approval is never automatic - the use has to be

approved. So if the Estate have decided to profit from every suggestion made

to them, no matter how inappropriate, we can expect a lot more of this sort

of thing.

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:43:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Volvo commercial

The grapevine has it that the Sampas family has not been very ethics-

bound in its decisions as to the sale or profit from JK's name and

work anyway. This comes as no surprise, then, if the estate has

indeed sanctioned the use of anything connected with the author and

his work to be used in any whoring manner whatsoever. Talk about his

turning over in his grave....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:10:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

their> vehicles last year on TV,

Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or did

the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so sure

of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK and

the Volvo.

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:51:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

In-Reply-To: <7796472663@tel1.accusort.com>

Thanks to Susan Pulley for slapping my virtual wrist re: Janis Joplin and

M-Benz. She did, indeed, sing, "Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a

Mercedes-Benz." Guess I just got carried away with my indignation over

the Kerouac/Volvo ads. If memory serves, which it often doesn't, Janis

did have a Mercedes, one with flowers all over it.

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:05:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: The whole Volvo thing...

Then again, and this is a stretch, there could be some young kid out there

who sees the commercial, likes what he/she hears and goes "Huh,

Kerouac...maybe I should read that book..." I am in no way supporting the

use of ON THE ROAD by Volvo... it's just a thought.

Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:46:51 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

Hey, I missed the first part of this thread. Did it ever actually have

anything to do with generational cycles? That phrase makes me think of

Malcolm Cowley's book, *And I Worked at the Writer's Trade*. He develops his

theories of generational cycles pretty thoroughly in that book.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:05:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Trip Toner <ElTripo@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

cs at AUC wrote

> Imagine Peter Fonda/Dennis Hopper's character's riding Volvos...

I can see a Fonda/Hopper Swedish tractor... lotsa trunk space for drugs...

(go Braves)

Trip

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:53:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

They make me feel as good as those Gap ads. Hey, doesn't every cool hipster

wear khakis and drive $20K cars?

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 17:12:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: car commercials

>Anyway, I am new to this, and have so far just been reading, so I was

wondering

>if anyone ever heard AG's "Holy Soul Jelly Roll?" I have the collection,

and I

I love the poetry.. I'm afraid of the music...

>think it is wonderful. I have only been into the Beats for about a year,

and AG

>is definitely my favorite beat poet. But I was wondering if he, or any

other

>beat has other CD's out. I love to read their poetry written down, but

They're other box sets such as The Beat Generation (b/w cover, great basic

info inside on the artists and the movements), includes a lot of jazz and

interviews

as well as the beats themselves. Also, you'll find a lot of modernized and

original Burroughs out there (Spare Ass Annie is wonderful), and one of my

fav's on the fringe of the Beat movement, S.J. Bernstein.. some of the best

spoken word I've heard in a long time.. there's more.. that's just off the

top

of my head..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:42:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Does anyone know of any interesting calls for papers?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:22:01 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Commercials

William Burroughs is alive and well (maybe) and he "whored" himself to do a

shoe commercial. I think Kerouac would have been happy to take the money

from volvo. Also Henry Rollins has served as a corporate shill for Apple. I

would suggest giving up any romatic and idealistic notions of

non-commercialism. Kerouac didn't give his books away for free. I think that

anything that might make Kerouac more popular is good for us intersted in

reading his works. There are still a lot of unpublised works that I'd like

to see. Anything to increase his profile is going to increase the likelihood

of a publishing company to print more of his books.

Concerning the type of car advertised, ie the volvo. There is no cool or

beat car. The cars they drove in On the Road were as staid and conservative

as a volvo. They didn't go driving around in souped up hotrods. (Anyone

remember the hotwheels Beatnik Bandit?).

I think the Sampas family seems to be doing a good job handling the estate.

The notes at the end of Book of Blues is very good. I think it is rather

nice that the family of Kerouacs first literary confidante (Sammy Sampas who

died in WWII) is running things.

I have to say though that I also had twinges of the type of disgust people

here have related when I heard Revolution by the Beatles selling shoes and

Mercedes benz by Joplin actually used to sell mercedes Benz. I thought it

was the height of irony that a song making fun of wanting a Mecedes Benz was

later used to sell them. But irony is not a bad thing and I think it puts in

perspective all our little notions of social revolution or ohter hollow

ideologies.

Kerouac's presence is appering in a lot of things nowadays. For example I saw

a book in the humor section that had a caricature of Kerouac on the cover.

I'd say get used to this sort of thing. And that it is trivial.

Oh yeah.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:34:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Cal Godot <godot@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Jack's Volvo, Bill's SHoes & Janice's Mercedes

Look: none of you knew Jack Kerouac, so you can't say whether or not he

would drive/sell/promote a Volvo. And who cares anyway? I don't. It doesn't

demean the beauty of "On The Road" to have Jack's image in a Docker's ad.

Who the fuck cares what Madison Avenue does? Face it: Marketing folks will

do damn near anything for a buck. They'd put pictures of headless infants

next to Volvo photos if they thought it would sell a few more cars. (Look

at a business college course list & see if you find any "Marketing Ethics"

classes. If you do, let me know: I want a copy of that syllabus!)

If the devil were real & worked in New York, he'd go into Marketing. He'd

come up with ads where Jesus is driving a Mercedes, listening to a

book-on-tape of "Tristessa" being read by O.J. Simpson. The ad would end

with Jesus stopping the car at a McDonalds, getting out & high-5ing

Shaquille O'Neal. And maybe some Charlie Parker would be playing in the

background.

Lighten up, people: it's all an illusion, remember?

Cal McInvale JAZZ FLAVORED COFFEE

e-mail: godot@wolfenet.com

WWW: http://www.wolfenet.com/~godot/

--------------

What is most appealing about young folks, after all, is the changes,

not the still photographs of finished character but the movie,

the soul in flux. -- Thomas Pynchon

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:36:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

There might be something to the Sampas family doing "the right thing"

recently, after all they were instrumental in having the

PORTABLE JK, BOOK OF BLUES, LETTERS, and SF BLUES published this year,

but until this time the track record of the family has not been so

great. Case in point: the treatment of Jan Kerouac (as rightful an

heir as can be found), and also that of JK's nephew.... Also, those

less reliable reports, that if true, tend to indict the position of

the family: that of selling off JK's raincoat, and shoes, for large

amounts of money... could this in fact be the case?

As far as the commercial factor goes, it is inevitable that what CAN

be appropriated WILL be; it's a fact of life, especially in this

country. Yes, get used to it. It doesn't really have anything to

do with ANYTHING those on this listserv see as important

anyway.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:18:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In-Reply-To: <418A3FB6A27@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

I'm afraid I can't "get used to it" and am seriously concerned with the

growing ignorance and apathy in my students regarding ways in which

advertising affects, even creates, culture. Why should we stop

questioning?: "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time

Magazine?" ("America," _Portable Beat Reader_ 76). I try to teach my

students to ask: "America this is the impression I get from looking in

the television set, / America is this correct?" (77) and try to keep

asking myself. Not caring, apathy, is dangerous.

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:05:10 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

Concerning comments made by Dan Terkla,

In my post I did not advocate or imply apathy. I said I thought it was good

for Kerouac's writing to be used in this commercial. The reasons were somewhat

selfish in that I feel raising Kerouac's profile can only lead to more works

by him being made available--something everyone here would proabably appreciate.

Maybe my indifference to selling cars is apathetic, but I see nothing wrong

with not objecting to people trying to sell their wares. I would be offended

if his writing were to be used for selling a particular political or social

agenda whatever the ideology, but cars are fairly innocuous and incredibly

usefull.

Concerning the following that was posted by someone whose name I don't have:

***************************************************************************

There might be something to the Sampas family doing "the right thing" recently,

after all they were instrumental in having the PORTABLE JK, BOOK OF BLUES,

LETTERS, and SF BLUES published this year, but until this time the track record

of the family has not been so great. Case in point: the treatment of Jan Kerouac

(as rightful an heir as can be found), and also that of JK's nephew.... Also,

those less reliable reports, that if true, tend to indict the position of the

family: that of selling off JK's raincoat, and shoes, for large amounts of money

... could this in fact be the case?

As far as the commercial factor goes, it is inevitable that what CAN be

appropriated WILL be; it's a fact of life, especially in this country. Yes, get

used to it. It doesn't really have anything to do with ANYTHING those on this

listserv see as important anyway.

****************************************************************************

I don't see anything wrong in selling the raincoats or shoes. Who cares about

them. If some fools wanted to buy my old shoes or my brother in law's old

shoes I would sell them in a minute.

I agree that it is sad that Jan kerouac was treated so poorly by her father.

But this is her father's fault, no one elses. (Except maybe the court's in

that as I recall one of the provisions of the paternity suit brought by Jan

kerouac's mother was that Jack was to have no contact with her or his

daughter.) She is not his legal heir or even his legal daughter and simply

because people share half their DNA that doesn't mean one has a claim on the

other for this biological relationship. He was never her father. She had

(has?) a step father. I don't know if she was adopted by him or not. She has

her mother's side of the family. I think it was wrong for Kerouac to act this

way to his daughter. He did her wrong and ought to have considered her, but

legally he wasn't her father and they had no real relationship, which is

tragic.

Perhaps his nephew has a stronger claim as he was part of Kerouac's family.

I would think that Jack and his mother after Jack died should have made sure

that he was included. The fault lays with them in this regard. Unless of

course the claims by Jan Kerouac and Paul Kerouac Blake (I think that is his

name) that the Sampas family committed fraud is true.

But none of this really matters. I came to this list because I like kerouac's

works, his ouevre. Before I knew anything about his personal life I liked

his books. In a way all we're doing (maybe just me) is gossiping.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:15:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.951019111142.28393B-100000@titan.iwu.edu> from

"Dan Terkla" at Oct 19, 95 11:18:45 am

>

> I'm afraid I can't "get used to it" and am seriously concerned with the

> growing ignorance and apathy in my students regarding ways in which

> advertising affects, even creates, culture. Why should we stop

> questioning?: "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time

> Magazine?" ("America," _Portable Beat Reader_ 76). I try to teach my

> students to ask: "America this is the impression I get from looking in

> the television set, / America is this correct?" (77) and try to keep

> asking myself. Not caring, apathy, is dangerous.

>

> Dan Terkla

>

regurgitated ads from lost years... lost in the memories of those who

have long ago died...lobotomized.....

some lame slogan that sucks activity from the mind into this void.... this

television land...

is there an independent thought left in my dissillusioned mind?

am i a product of the ads...the books...the ideas....

no...... too long ago i knew... i was aware.... i have not lost that..

not yet...

not ever....

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 12:20:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.814122310.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

RE: Timothy Gallagher's response:

I agree that bringing Kerouac or any of the Beats more into the public

eye is a good thing. I suppose that I still see most things, including

ads for autos, as politically valenced--or at the very least

ideologically informed.

Thanks for the response.

Cheers,

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:34:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.814122310.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Oct 19, 95 10:05:10 am

> I don't see anything wrong in selling the raincoats or shoes. Who cares about

> them. If some fools wanted to buy my old shoes or my brother in law's old

> shoes I would sell them in a minute.

Yes, exactly. Look at it this way -- let's say you drop by the house

of a rich friend and he says "check it out -- this is Beethoven's coat,

it's been with my family for 100 years." I would consider this pretty cool.

I think this is just as good as depositing the coat behind a glass case in

some University library.

The Sampas family is sometimes not generous enough. For instance the

new Penguin CD-Rom has a huge (and fascinating) photo gallery with several

pictures of Sampas family members, and not a single shot of Jan. This is way

wrong. However, they do seem to be doing a good job as literary custodians,

and as someone pointed out it is nice that the family of Kerouac's very

important friend Sammy Sampas is in this position.

As for Volvo: to me the most disappointing commercialization of all

time was when Charles Schulz sold out the Peanuts characters to Met Life.

I'm still in trauma over that. The Volvo thing is nowhere near as

shocking.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:08:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: Commercials

My logic, as faulty as it may be follows:

Joplin's songs, JK's books, even the Peanut's characters will be

around long, long after the commercials are gone. Advertising is

fleeting - it's hardly a speck in time and not worthy of discussion or

disgust. If it's money that offends us, I agree with one of the writer's

on this list - the cd's and books cost plenty - an acclaimed artist today

makes money and (probably) loves doing it. It was an animated

thread though!

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 12:32:20 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Commercials

Susan Pulley said:

*******************************************************

My logic, as faulty as it may be follows:

Joplin's songs, JK's books, even the Peanut's characters will be

around long, long after the commercials are gone. Advertising is

fleeting - it's hardly a speck in time and not worthy of discussion or

disgust. If it's money that offends us, I agree with one of the writer's

on this list - the cd's and books cost plenty - an acclaimed artist today

makes money and (probably) loves doing it. It was an animated

thread though!

****************************************************************

I don't think your logic is faulty at all. I concur.

Re Sampas slighting of Jan Kerouac on the ROMnibus etc...

I agree. She is slighted and shouldn't be. She is being treated unfairly

albeit legaly in terms of some things, but in terms of the humanity and her

place in all this I must agree that she deserves more. I read Baby Driver

and thought it was very good. I didn't read Train Song. I hope she is able

to write more and that her health is OK. It seems there is bad feelings

between her and the Sampas which explains maybe why they have given her

short shrift. I think though they should go beyond this.

And if you saw she was given short shrift on the ROMnibus that means you have

a copy of it and it exists. Is it worth it? What's it like?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 16:24:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: hollowhed tribe <hollohed@COIL.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

>I'm afraid I can't "get used to it" and am seriously concerned with the

>growing ignorance and apathy in my students regarding ways in which

>advertising affects, even creates, culture. Why should we stop

>questioning?: "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time

>Magazine?" ("America," _Portable Beat Reader_ 76). I try to teach my

>students to ask: "America this is the impression I get from looking in

>the television set, / America is this correct?" (77) and try to keep

>asking myself. Not caring, apathy, is dangerous.

>

>Dan Terkla

My dad had the same problem. He taught television at Capitol U (Ohio) for

a year before he ran screaming to LA. Teaching it paid the bills, but his

real problem is that he despises most television, and the critical analysis

of Mad About You did not enrich his life one iota and he doesn't like to

waste time in that respect. He also found the apathy of his students to be

a shock, akin to being asleep and suddenly plunged into an icy...make that

acid...bath. He was used to the type of thinking that I have, my sister

has and my friends have (question everything), and at least for me, it was

directly influenced by him. (Who put the first Burroughs book into my

craving claw? You guessed it.) He would come home shaking with anger and

outrage and proceed to write angst-ridden, rich, multi-textured poems that

I hope he will publish someday. But I want to tell you, as I told him,

(and I'm sure you know this) that there are just enough thinkers and people

who care to continue to put a bug up the collective Corporate ass. I wish

there were more and more, and I'm not ignoring the fact that many of my

peers can't read more than what is contained in a panel of a Comic in one

sitting, but look at it this way: We've got them (The Man, heh heh heh)

scared enough to flail (albeit wrongly) into the frame of mind where they

would _want_ to appeal to anyone who would be into JK's work...I'm not sure

how I feel about all of this. Burroughs, Dennis Hopper, etc. are still

alive and have made money with their spooky pates on the blue screen and I

have little question that JK would do the same if he were alive. But I

like it when artists make money because they then have a little more

breathing room to create. (Not that Dennis Hopper wasn't always an actor,

but he seemed to be a little more...who knows...) I know a friend and

subversive artist who had a song of his used for a VW commercial but didn't

get a cent out of it himself. If some company is going to abandon creative

thought and anal-rape someone else's ready-made vibe, I would at least hope

they'd give them a financial reach-around so they can make something else

that doesn't have a Corporate Logo stamped over it. Just some

thoughts...sorry that they're a little disjointed. Take care all.

sister zuzu

ps: When I see Peter Fonda in a commercial, I'm wiping the tears of dismay

from my cheeks and selling my Biker videos FOR PROFIT. $$$$$

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 16:37:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: RAH reading

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date sent: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:30:55 GMT

From: Simon Okotie <simon@okotie.demon.co.uk>

Send reply to: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

To: CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

Subject: Re: RAH reading

Hi Clay

> Simon, I'd be interested in knowing some of AG's remarks during the

> reading, what was said offhand, any particular slant to his

> "playlist"...

He started with a few 'american sentences', one of which was 'I recall Neal's

twenty three year old corpse as I cum in my hand'. Quite striking. The general

feeling that came across was that here was an old and wise man who, looking back

at the sixties, felt that some things hadn't turned out the way he might have

wanted. He mentioned something about renouncing material possesions 'but here I

am in old age with mountains of books and papers'. Almost dead homosexual

genius is what came across.

> also, what would McCartney bring with him to "jam" with AG?

In physical terms, Paul brought his guitar with him to jam with Allen. Allen

read verses of poetry whilst Paul strummed; in between, during the 'bridge' Paul

would play a few rocky riffs. They acted liked old friends.

Hope this is interesting. My memory fails me. Feel free to try and haul some

more stuff from it.

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 17:00:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In this crazy world, I find myself trying to justify many things. I shop at

the GAP, I eat Froot Loops for breakfast, and on days when I have school, I

watch Headline News during my luch hour. I have come to expect certain

aspects of my life to be simplified, defined, and explained to me. This is

pathetic, I know. When I see something like the Volvo/Kerouac ad, I'm struck

by how two very separate worlds seem to collide. I'm watching 90210, and in

the middle of all this stupidity, a great piece of literature is being read

on Tv. In my mind, this is wonderful. Sure, it's a bastardization of

Kerouac's work, but it's also a bastardization of TV's normal advertising

campaigns. I am happy to see/hear Kerouac on television. It brings a weird

sense of recognition to my day.

I feel a lot younger than most people on this list, and I must admit that I

struggle with the apathy many of the list-subscribers have described. What

saves me, though, is the fact that I can recognize something like ON THE ROAD

when it is being read on the television. So, I feel a little better.

I'm going to get eaten alive for these comments, but I needed to put this all

in perspective. Many of us feel like scholars and intellectuals, but I can't

be the only one who knows the different plots on Melrose Place.

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 16:07:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: the t.v. thing

I quote from a movie I recently saw:

"YOU FUCKING PEOPLE"

The only reason any of you give a shit about these t.v. commercials and

money and so on is because you have let yourselves fall into the trap of

watching t.v. None of this would make one bit of difference if everyone

was not so obsessed with the damn thing. You got your priorities jacked

up.

As to the letter saying that people do not read enough and that there are

not enough thinkers I beg to differ. I think people are just hanging

around in the right spots. I know many people who write and who read and

I think the problem is nobody understand them and so they just say there

is no one out there who does read or write, but you are all wrong and you

are all too obsessed with your little t.v.s.

Here is a quote from an author who will never get published because no one

understands nor wants to listen anymore:

>And if you came up to me and was pretty and a girl I

>would buy a rose and a pint of ice cream and kiss you until the

>sun rise came up on a dune. And if you are a guy and came up

>to me and said "Lets get drunk" I would buy you the first shot

>of tequila and keep em rollin. And so dont sit on your ass

>anymore you have read enough. Get yourself up and out and

>find me and if I got a dollar to my friggin name I will show you

>some fun. And I will talk shit and tell you how great Jack was

>and how great Natalie is and I will act like an ass and forget

>your name. But who cares?, because at least you wont be at

>home wasting your life on some fucking t.v. which aint got a shit

>to say back to you. Get out there and howl at the moon. Kiss

>someone. Make someone's night fun. And as for me, I'll be

>waiting. And if I tell you I am gonna do something you better

>damn well be ready because I am sure as shit gonna do it!

> Or you could go to bed and dream. . . and just dream!

__Paupers Death In Amerika__ Jack Mercheant

Who cares anyway? By the end Jack Kerouac was so out of it all

he wanted to do was die because the people treated him like such total

shit anyway. I dont think he ever cared about the money either because

all he wanted to do was LIVE and find some reason for existence or non

existence as he loved so much in Buddhism.

and FUCK volvo too. Jack never drove any car. Now NEAL hell, he would

have driven a YUGO as long as it went over 100 miles per hour.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 18:17:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <rpeltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

>> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

>their> vehicles last year on TV,

>

>Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or did

>the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so sure

>of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK and

>the Volvo.

>

"Ummm" Janis wasn't really asking for a Mercedes Benz. She was being

ironic. We call that satire.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:35:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Mercedes-Benz

In-Reply-To: <199510192217.SAA06594@mail.trincoll.edu> from "Robert Peltier"

at Oct 19, 95 06:17:29 pm

With all this talk about Joplin and Mercedes-Benz, isn't anybody

going to mention that the words for the song originated with a poem

written by beat poet Michael McClure?

Jeez, I have to do all the work around here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:42:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.2.814131140.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Oct 19, 95 12:32:20 pm

> And if you saw she was given short shrift on the ROMnibus that means you have

> a copy of it and it exists. Is it worth it? What's it like?

Yes, Penguin sent me a copy -- one of the only perks I get for devoting

my entire waking life to my web site.

As an archive, it's outstanding -- great photos, many never before

seen, many letters, journal entries, manuscripts, etc. As far as

the technology goes it's solid -- only crashed once in two hours on

my PC, which is much better than most CD-Roms. Seems to be based

on Macromedia Director, in case anybody cares.

The full text of Dharma Bums is there, complete with hypertext links.

There's a map of the relationships among SF Beat writers, which is

interesting, though I wouldn't exactly concur that Jack Kerouac and

Allen Ginsberg were "romantically linked." Not without Jack being

very, very drunk, anyway. Nor would I agree that Jack and Neal

were "broken-off" -- I don't think that captures the complexity.

The CD-Rom is definitely worth getting if you're into the subject.

As immersed in Kerouac's works as I am, though, it's hard for me

to see it the way a beginner or intermediate reader might. It

didn't really change or expand my view of K in any particular way,

but then others might find things I didn't notice. So let's hear

some more opinions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:18:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Sallee <Censorus@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

you have just clumped k. into five categorical box batches 3 of which are

ideological 2 national(istic) AND NONE VERY INTERESTING. if the man is worthy

of discussion.... and not even on his own terms, mind you... don't you think

it behoves us to make an attempt to do so employing , if not meaningful, at

least exciting vital or whole- carcass-made- up- from-brain-blood terms and

categories. I guess the only reason i read this list is in hope of hearing

something i've not before that could plausably be entertained even ...or not.

is that odd?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:18:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Sallee <Censorus@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

you have just clumped k. into five categorical box batches 3 of which are

ideological 2 national(istic) AND NONE VERY INTERESTING. if the man is worthy

of discussion.... and not even on his own terms, mind you... don't you think

it behoves us to make an attempt to do so employing , if not meaningful, at

least exciting vital or whole- carcass-made- up- from-brain-blood terms and

categories. I guess the only reason i read this list is in hope of hearing

something i've not before that could plausably be entertained even or not. is

that odd?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:24:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: JK

in reference to (but not necessarily context of) the following text

written a few messages ago by tim bowden <tcbowden@nerdnosh.org> with

reference to JKs lifestyle and his (rapidly re-emerging) mythical

status

>He was the best at what he did, which wasn't politics nor

>philosophy. Anytime he tried to extend that role, as say a

>public personality, he fell flat on his face.

and also to the following text

>Lighten up, people: it's all an illusion, remember?

written by cal godot <godot@wolfenet.com> regarding marketing

methods, i would like to add a stoned bullshit thread that comes

to mind.

in a book called 'sophies world' by jostein gaarder (highly

recommended) the author explains his abstract illustration of

what philosophy really is and means. the first time i read it

i immediately thought JK. the text is

>a greek philosopher who lived more than two thousand years ago

>believed that philosophy had it's origin in man's sense of wonder.

>man thought it was so astonishing to be alive that phiosophical

>questions arose of their own accord.

>it is like watching a magic trick. we cannot understand how it

>is done. so we ask: how can the magician change a couple of white

>silk scarves into a live rabbit?

>a lot of people experience the world with the same incredulity as

>when a magician suddenly pulls a rabbit out of a hat which has just

>been shown to be empty.

>in the case of the rabbit, we know the magician has tricked us.

>what we would like to know is just how he did it. but when it comes

>to the world its somewhat different. we know that the world is

>not all sleight of hand and deception because here we are in it,

>we are part of it. actually, we are the white rabbit being pulled

>out of the hat. the only difference between us and the white

>rabbit is that the white rabbit does not realize it is taking part

>in a magic trick. unlike us. we feel we are part of something

>more mysterious and we would like to know how it all works.

>p.s. as far as the white rabbit is concerned, it might be better

>to compare it with the whole universe. we who live here are

>microscopic insects existing deep down in the rabbit's fur. the

>philosophers are always trying to climb up the fine hairs of the

>fur in order to stare right into the magician's eyes.

'a lot of people experience the world with the same sense of

incredulity as when a magician suddenly pulls a rabbit out of a hat

which has just been shown to be empty'...reminded me of the

incredulity he expresses when describing passing landscapes...or the

weather...or colors...or food in bakers windows...or his close

friends...or the streets he walked along...slept upon...a charlie

parker song...and even talking all night long...

he invokes a sense of wonder (mystical) better than no other author

i have read. i would guess he knew more about life, its experiences

and illusions than most academic philosophers of his generation

(excepting possibly wittgenstein).

i personally think he was a very good philosopher, not in a

traditional "which came first the chicken or the egg" sense, but in

a sense of "i need to find *my* truth, no matter how long it takes

or how far i need to travel". he and his like created a whole

new philosophy for _a generation_. two generations before my birth!

don't get me wrong, i'm not claiming JK should be remembered for

his thoughts on philosophy or politics. and what i'm referring to

is quite out of context to text i've quoted from tim & cal, but his

philosophy for life was unique, poetic and envious. i think he

personally knew of the 'rabbit and the magic trick' and went 'high'

up the rabbits hair in search of the great magician. he wasn't

content to bury himself into the rabbits fur like the rest of society.

JK: 'it no longer makes me cry and die and tear myself to see her go

because everything goes away from me like that now - girls, visions,

anything, just in the same way and forever and i accept lostness

forever. everything belongs to me because i am poor'.

a wise man once said 'the definition of intellect is the ability

to understand abstract ideas'. socrates said 'one thing only i

know, and that is that i know nothing'. JK said 'i accept lostness

forever. everything belongs to me because i am poor' - a valid

philosophy, although maybe a little to abstract for an e-mail

message, still thereyougoforafirstmessage on a (so far) brilliant

mail-list.

as the great cal godot says earlier 'Lighten up, people: it's all an

illusion, remember?'.

joe

newcastle upon tyne

uk

e-mail: 100106.1102@compuserve.com

or joe.carney@unn.ac.uk

pps, if anyone's still reading, are there any beat poetry mailservers?

i like to write poetry, mainly of my beat(ish) lifestyle and would be

very much interested to read others. as a flavour i have included one

for anyone mildly interested:

mother earth, father sky...

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we slept thru noon,

the black swan still burning,

transparent in the winterlands,

no 'superman',

no 'think therefore i am',

as agnostic ideas,

spew cyber careers,

in this digital boom,

have we kissed the moon too soon?

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we dreamt thru noon,

the black swan still burning,

biblically stoned in the hinterlands,

no 'thank you',

no 'have a nice day',

as the business dreams,

burst open the seams,

of our chemical dreams,

will we run to the sun fore we burn?

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we died at noon,

the black swan still burning,

bright white,

in the moonlit sky,

high over the plainlands,

the father sky,

the all seeing eye,

of this ale-stained tearcolored man...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

- the area breathes; it seems to want to tell something intelligible

to me - JK

- the internet breathes; it seems to want to tell something

intelligible to me - joe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:32:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Mercedes-Benz

Almost, Levi -

The Mercedes-Benz song wasn't originally a poem by McClure -

McClure wrote it specifically as a song during the time he was writing other

songs for a country group named Wildflowers. McClure, after meeting Bob

Dylan, got the songwriting bug and started a music group with Freewheelin'

Frank and his friend Montana.

See ya,

Betsy

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:08:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Sallee <Censorus@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: cycles

the postwar think-poles of international politics in america have been

characterized as the europe firsters and the asia firsters.thay was all

anti-communists really but threww this tar ("communism") at each other til

the whole place was a mess. this polar structure can be applied to so many

social formations of that time so long aback - Tom Wolf for 1 used a

permutation of it in" Electric koolaid...." to highlight the tend among

Keroac-cassidy beats and proto-hippies to turn away from the european

elements in American culture toward a true-new America or by extension to an

asian stance... well you can see where i'm agoinrightalong here- Burroughs by

comparison to Keroac is most definaerly "european bound". it is curious to

note how Eisenhower was tarred by the asia firsters as had been True man but

was i think no more the one or the other certainly not of the Henry Luce

purse suassion. So with Keroac, while not Asia bound in the degree of

Ginsburg or Snyder he was tarred as every oppositions fellow traveler and

travel he did..from mind germs like his came boddisatvas munching on

burgers-the America that niether Ginsburg or burroughs could embrace with out

decsending... the hippies i knew and almost loved.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:32:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Karpp <GustoEater@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Volvo commercial

At the risk of being the only right winger / business guy here. . .

Who really cares wether they use on the road, it seems oddly appropriate to

me anyway. You read the book, you enjoyed the book, some patterned

themselves after the book. . .why don't you get yourself a volvo and enjoy

the road in luxury.

The idiocy of that statement not withstanding, I submit to you all. . .

who cares it's just a commercial

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:06:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Coppola/Cassady

>But it's a hell of a lot of fun to fantasize about casting: Brad Pitt as

>NC, yes, a la his pathological cowboy in T/Louise;

Absolutly! I can't think of a better person for the role, considering that

Mr. Pitt is from the mid-west and has some of that pathologicial Neal Cassady

charm in real life. The question is would he even consider playing the part?

I think I too would have fallen victim to N.C.'s over-stated charm. I'm like

Sal Paradise in the beginning of _On The Road_ "But then they danced down

the streets like dingledodies, and I shambled after as I've been doing all my

life after people who interest me, becuase the only people for me are the mad

ones..."

Later

DustyJade

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:06:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>I like the following for key roles in Coppola's "On The Road" film:

>

>Brad Pitt..........Cassady

>Andy Garcia........Kerouac

>Gary Oldman........Burroughs

>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

>Steve Buscemi......Huncke

>Julianne Moore.....Carolyn

>Drew Barrymore.....LuAnn

Sounds good to me!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:26:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>>Brad Pitt..........Cassady

Somebody defend this one for me, being that I'd rather see

Brad Pitt stay where he is in his carreer (not a big fan mind you).

I just can't see him in anything but his pot-head character from

_True Romance_..

>>Andy Garcia........Kerouac

Not bad on this one.. I'm impressed!

>>Gary Oldman........Burroughs

Love Gary to death, but Burroughs? Hmmm... He could pull

it off, but I'm just not sure he's the best pick.. Tommy Lee

Jones? Talented.. might look good in fidora... (smile). Mmm,

there has to be someone better..

>>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

Hmm.. another one I need defended. Mind you, I haven't

seen him in anything but.. Forrest Gump?

>>Steve Buscemi......Huncke

Great call..

>>Julianne Moore.....Carolyn

>>Drew Barrymore.....LuAnn

>

>Sounds good to me!

The rest I like too.. Drew Barrymore! Nice way to round off

the cast..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:43:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: dream film

In-Reply-To: Your message <3087220E@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com> of Fri, 20

Oct 1995 00:26:18 -0400

>>>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

>Hmm.. another one I need defended. Mind you, I haven't

>seen him in anything but.. Forrest Gump?

Gary Sinise is actually a terrific actor, and as much as I liked

"Forrest Gump" (irony), the film did not give him the opportunity to

show his talents. Sinise was in the latest version of "Of Mice and

Men," and I think directed it. He's in HBO film of "Truman," coming out

or already shown (I don't know, I don't have cable) I believe he has a

theater company and has done most of his acting on stage.

I know this is sort of an old post, and I'll probably be flamed for

this, but I'm not sure if Sinise would be a good Ginsberg. Granted, with

makeup, he looks a lot like Truman in the HBO film, but he seems more

all American, like JK, than Ginsberg. However, he is an actor......

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:58:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire <maguirem@CA.CCH.COM>

Subject: Tidbit from rec.music.dylan

The following two messages appeared yesterday on the Dylan newsgroup:

(1) From WITH WILLIAM BURROUGHS/A REPORT FROM THE BUNKER by Victor Bockris:

BOCKRIS: When did you first meet Bob Dylan?

BURROUGHS: In a small cafe in the Village, around 1965. A place where they

only served wine and beer. Allen had brought me there. I had no idea who

Dylan was, I knew he was a young singer just getting started. He was with

his manager, Albert Grossman, who looked like a typical manager, heavy

kind of man with a beard, and John Hammond, Jr. was there. We talked about

music. I didn't know a lot about music-a lot less than I know now, which

is still very little-but he struck me as someone who was obviously

competent in his subject. If his subject had been something that I knew

absolutely nothing about, such as mathematics, I would have still received

the same impression of competence. Dylan said he had a knack for writing

lyrics and expected to make a lot of money. He had a likeable direct

approach in conversation, at the same time cool, reserved. He was very

young, quite handsome in a sharp-featured way. he had on a black

turtleneck sweater.

(2) [The above] reminds me of the time I asked Allen if I could shake his

hand. Tucking his NY Times under his arm, he extended a shaky hand & said,

"I don't know what good it will do." He was right. This also reminds me of

a line in a song I remember hearing a lot. Something like "don't look

back..." It's an old song. Not as old as Burroughs of course, but it was

long ago... & almost far away. It was something about an artist...with no

place to fall...

------------

I was rather moved by this second post, but I'm not sure what the sender

means by "no place to fall" -- certainly not that these three are

washed-up as artists. Truth is, they've all demonstrated astonishing

resilience.

What has always appealed to me, I think, is the way the beat community

remains grounded and reachable. While Jack, Neal etc., were set-off from

mainstream society on principle, they've never, even in death, given the

impression of being removed from us as readers. The writer of the second

post is obviously wistful about times past, but it only comforts me to

know that Burroughs, Ginsberg and Dylan have continued through the years

with us. This is life, there is no place to fall except in death, and I'll

be lonesome when they go.

Just some thoughts on a Friday morning.

_________________________________________________________________________

M. Maguire Toronto, Canada

CCH Canadian Ltd. http://www.ca.cch.com

_________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:04:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: shoes or shorts or whatever...

Gosh, when I brought up the matter of the Kerouac estate selling off

shoes and raincoat, I did so NOT to say there was something

intrinsically wrong with THAT, but to use those transactions and

compare them with what appears to be questionable behavior: the

intransigence of the estate for such a long while. While the estate

seemed certainly willing to sell off such peripheral items as

clothing, the real work, the manuscripts, were being held back

despite numerous requests to publish from many corners. For example,

Lawrence Ferlinghetti has expressed his dismay a number of times at

his inability to publish manuscripts he actually had in hand, despite

his requests, that were given to him by Kerouac with a tacit desire

to have them published, only to have that quashed time and again by

the family, for whatever reason. This certainly calls into question

the desire by the estate to bring to light the work, except possibly

for the highest dollar. This, on top of the selling of personal items

suggests that Kerouac's LITERARY reputation seemed not so much a

concern as that of proffering the man as myth and those items as

artifacts of that myth. I will grant you, though, that the buyer buys

into that fallacy as soon as the money is plopped down.

I think none of us disagrees on the unfortunate circumstances that

seem to surround the estates of many artists. Indeed, there has been

much to suggest that this sort of thing happens almost as a matter of

course. Look at the estates of such artists as Mark Rothko, where

criminal fraud played such a part, and these days the possibility

that many of the late works of de Kooning are not his at all but are

by some apprentice or possibly the man's daughter. The Sampas family

cannot be accused of anything so heinous as this, but the appearance

that their interest may have lain (at one point anyway) elsewhere than

with the literary reputation of the person they were charged to

"represent", was the only observation I was trying to make.

Clay Vaughan

clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:44:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Casting...

Hate to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't casting all of these famous, good-

looking beautiful people for _On The Road_ be rather antithetical to the

idea of those living on the edge of society. Something about Brad Pitt as

a man struggling against the constraints of a traditional lifestyle just

doesn't ring true to me.

Were it not for marketing and capital resources, a group of unknowns would

be the ideal cast.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:09:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: shoes or shorts or whatever...

Re shoes and shirts and Ferlinghetti and the Sampas.

Who knows what here for sure, I want to point out another possible viewpoint.

Ferlinghetti is the fellow who called Kerouac "just another stumblebum on

the scene."

The Sampas family were lifelong friends of kerouac from his childhood on.

This relationship never faltered even after Jack's best friend's death.

Later he even married into this family. They loved him before he was

famous, after he was famous and after he was messed up later in life. It

seems more likely that "Kerouac's LITERARY reputation" is of more concern

to the Sampas family and that Ferlinghetti is the one simply out to make

some more money (Ferlinghetti could probably use it).

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 19:28:36 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vicente Garcia Pineiro <vgarcia@GOLIAT.UGR.ES>

Subject: America

dan terkla......if you want to teach your students about

america.......please.....first.....teach them america is not usa only.....i

don't know if even beats learned this......

you have stolen a name: america.....

your capitalists steal everyday to central and south

america.....please.....at least allow another peoples of america call

themself americans......

a lot of people don't get images of america on tv......they get

their images of america in their lifes.....in his/her stomachs.....his/her

hungry is american....his/her ignorance is american......his/her misery is

american......his/her death is american.....

the destruction of amazonia is american....

please......your north american navels are not so important.....

you can believe me.....

some beats knew this.....some of them.....

if you want to know about the image of america......send your

students to ask in guatemala.....cuba......el

salvador.....chile......peru.....bolivia.....

----at least..... i think they can know in what continent are these

countries----

these peoples know on america much more than your students......i am

sure.....if you don't agree.....do a test.....try it....

vic

una pregunta: hablo ginsberg alguna vez contra el bloqueo a cuba??

does he do it now??

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:18:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

> >> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

> >their> vehicles last year on TV,

> >

> >Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or

did

> >the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so

sure

> >of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK

and

> >the Volvo.

> >

>

> "Ummm" Janis wasn't really asking for a Mercedes Benz. She was

being

> ironic. We call that satire.

Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

(as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)- I was told she

DID own a Mercedes - and, I have a degree in English - quite familiar

with satire, thank you.>

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 08:57:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: the t.v. thing

This list is pretty sophisticated (at least it was). The discussions

were informative, intelligent, and very focused. I don't even mind the

debates - but, I think we're bordering on out and out flaming - which

can (and is) starting to be offensive. I don't think we need to be so

defensive to make a point.

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:03:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: the t.v. thing

In-Reply-To: <A4633A05AB@tel1.accusort.com> from "Susan V. Pulley" at Oct 20,

95 08:57:54 am

>

> This list is pretty sophisticated (at least it was). The discussions

> were informative, intelligent, and very focused. I don't even mind the

> debates - but, I think we're bordering on out and out flaming - which

> can (and is) starting to be offensive. I don't think we need to be so

> defensive to make a point.

>

>

funny...i was thinking that nicholas is the first person in this thread

to speak the words that i am not eloquent enough to express... offensive?

i find this talk of obsession with the lobotomy box and what it

"means" to be insulting to anyone who has the mind to turn the damn

thing off and walk out the door....

wake up... it's TELEVISION.... hello?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> It's a joy to communicate!

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:04:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: America

In-Reply-To: <199510201858.SAA25697@goliat.ugr.es>

Vicente Garcia Pineiro:

Thanks for the cautionary note regarding "America." I do, in fact, teach

my students--or, more precisely--get them to talk about, what the term

means. I think Ginsberg in his poem, "America," and certainly in "Howl"

is concerned with US hegemony, or at least in the abuses of the military

industrial complex:

Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers

are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a canni-

bal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking

tomb! ("Howl" 21)

Thanks again for the note.

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:53:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

"[A]s we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes", but what type

of wishes does the lord grant? It seems a rather naive statement on

your part. And why through around what type of education you have-just

curious. ( I have a degree in history and secondary education, for

whatever reason.)

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 10/20/95 2:46 PM

> >> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

> >their> vehicles last year on TV,

> >

> >Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or

did

> >the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so

sure

> >of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK

and

> >the Volvo.

> >

>

> "Ummm" Janis wasn't really asking for a Mercedes Benz. She was

being

> ironic. We call that satire.

Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

(as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)- I was told she

DID own a Mercedes - and, I have a degree in English - quite familiar

with satire, thank you.>

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:45:12 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

In message <A4BC8D3DA4@tel1.accusort.com> BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:

>

> Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

> (as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)

To accept this as true, we have to accept that Janis Joplin believed in this

entity Susan chooses to call "the Lord", and also that, so believing, she

believed that "the Lord" does not grant material wishes.

Am I alone in finding this difficult? Does anyone know of any hard

evidence that Janis Joplin was a believer? And this kind of believer?

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:28:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: TV, Volvos, Dreams, & Jack

I have to confess that I have actually found this thread (more like a

tapestry) quite interesting, with a broader range of opinions and

perspectives reflected therein than I might have expected. Something I think

this thread has brought out is the schizophrenic nature of this mail-group.

On the one hand, it is dedicated to literary history - tracing the careers

and past doings of a rather anarchic group of mid-20th century writers

referred to collectively (and not always accurately) as "The Beats". on the

other hand, all of the participants are living in the present moment, and as

such, bring their own ideas and perspectives into this discourse. There's a

tension, in other words, between the "here-and-now" and "what once was", that

can be invigorating.

I was surprised by the number of posts defending the enterpreneureal (sp?)

spirit, and even out-and-out commercialism, since most members of this group

are probably "liberals", and inclined to view capitalism w/ some skepticism.

(Anarchist that I am, I would draw a distinction, incidentally, between

market capitalism and corporate capitalism, but all that is for some other

mail-group.) I'm also surprised at how well-versed members of this group are

regarding contemporary Hollywood and television personalities, but maybe that

is because I don't even own a TV!

For what it's worth, I don't think it's possible to defend an argument that

the Beats of the 50s were anti-capitalist or even anti-consumerist. They were

Americans, after all, and part of what is/was exciting about the Beats is how

they sought to find and touch the hidden heart of this great, garish,

ranting, brawling country, this place we call America which is not so much a

place, after all, as it is a state of mind. As far as the Volvo commercials,

the Nike commercials, the Mercedes commercials, et al., I must concur w/

those who have said: Loosen up, folks. If that Volvo commercials sends some

kid to the library to seek out OTR, than it is, perhaps, a good thing, and if

that kid reads OTR, and sets out to emulate its author in even some small

way, that is all the better, and we will all be better people as a result.

It's all one big, long, lonely, crazy, wild, spooky, shadowy, bright, noisy

road-trip anyway, only usually we call it life for lack of any better name to

give it. I think the point is to enjoy the ride.

And, what I really want to know is - If Jack Kerouac were alive and writing

today, would he use a Macintosh or an IBM-PC?

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:08:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>I know this is sort of an old post, and I'll probably be flamed for

>this, but I'm not sure if Sinise would be a good Ginsberg. Granted, with

>makeup, he looks a lot like Truman in the HBO film, but he seems more

>all American, like JK, than Ginsberg. However, he is an actor......

I thought the geeky looking guy from Lunch did a pretty good job as

Ginsberg.. personally that is..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:14:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: America

> dan terkla......if you want to teach your students about

>america.......please.....first.....teach them america is not usa only.....i

>don't know if even beats learned this......

>you have stolen a name: america.....

Thanks so much for posting this! I have been working on a shitty

version of America '95 now for almost a year and haven't been

able to save the long, prose-esque script from what seems to be

a weak attempt at redefining the original in modern terms. I think

this will help me out to some extent..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 07:12:38 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: JK

In your message dated Thursday 19, October 1995 you wrote :

> >a greek philosopher who lived more than two thousand years ago

> >believed that philosophy had it's origin in man's sense of wonder.

> >man thought it was so astonishing to be alive that phiosophical

> >questions arose of their own accord.

>

Yes yes yes, Joe. This is Kerouac for me. Especially his sense of wonder at

other people, people who conventional society wouldn't give the time of day to.

I think I should read about Sophie's World. It looks interesting.

PS Jostein Gaarder is female.

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 00:31:56 +0200

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Coppola/Cassady

In-Reply-To: <951019230645_128316139@mail02.mail.aol.com> (DustyJ437@AOL.COM)

From: "Karen L Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

> I think I too would have fallen victim to NC's over-stated charm...

> Later

> DustyJade

I'm not sure how accurate an impression any of us can have without having met

the guy ...

I saw a film of NC once (I was at the same event in SF as another list member,

I forget his name -- Ken Babbs spoke, it was around 1982) ... the thing that

struck me was how _strong_ this guy was ... he was flipping this sledgehammer

.... a lot of physical energy. I can believe he was a ladies' man (tho you'd

better ask a lady about that) ... Terrific physique ... not sure of the year,

probably he was pushing forty when the film was made. But very good-looking.

To tell you the truth, I think it will be very difficult to cast this part ...

nobody could come up to the original ...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 17:59:21 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Junk's Christmas

In-Reply-To: <950911212418_16699420@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Coming to Bravo! TV (Canada) this Thursday night at 6:30. Features the

voice of William Burroughs. More details later.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:01:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marty Kinczel <MAK62@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses S

please pass along this important manure to the world

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: Fwd: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses S

Date: 95-10-23 14:44:07 EDT

From: MKinczel

To: ash@icg.apc.org,SPH16,MAK62

some light reading

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: wilson@readmore.com (Jenni Wilson)

To: mkinczel%aol.com@readmore.com

Date: 95-10-19 18:49:59 EDT

Subject: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses Shoot Themselves Down (fwd)

Forwarded to:

smtp[acameron@vax.clarku.edu],smtp[102704.2332@compuserve.com],smtp[edgarc

ia@usp.br],smtp[lwilson@peace.moldova.su],smtp[ahuber@husc.harvard.edu],sm

tp[hamilton@forwild.umass.edu],smtp[coxc@agreng.lan.mcgill.ca]

cc:

Comments by: Cindy Robinson@Stud@CEM

Comments:

A amazing, and sad tale. Food for thought (definately NOT to eat) . .

.

-------------------------- [Original Message]

-------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 03:07:48 -0400

From: Moonchild <coniberr@cs.man.ac.uk>

To: vrc@tiac.net

Subject: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses Shoot Themselves Down

McLibel Support Campaign

5 Caledonian Road

London N1 9DX UK

Tel/Fax +44-171-713 1269

A Year of Great McQuotes from the Witness Box

McDonald's witnesses have often said ridiculous things in the

witness box in a vain attempt to conceal the truth or justify the

way McDonald's operates and the effect those operations have in

this country and around the world. Here is just a small

selection:

NUTRITION AND ILL-HEALTH

The Defendants asked Dr Sydney Arnott (McDonald's expert on

cancer) his opinion of the following statement: "A diet high in

fat, sugar, animal products and salt and low in fibre, vitamins

and minerals is linked with cancer of the breast and bowel and

heart disease". He replied: "If it is being directed to the

public then I would say it is a very reasonable thing to say."

The court was then informed that the statement was an extract from

the London Greenpeace Factsheet. This section had been

characterised by McDonald's lawyer at pre-trial hearings as the

central and most "defamatory" allegation, which if proven would be

the "kiss of death" for a fast-food company like McDonald's. On

the strength of the supposed scientific complexities surrounding

this issue the Defendants had been denied their right to a jury.

David Green, Senior Vice-President of Marketing (USA), stated

'McDonald's food is nutritious' and 'healthy'. When asked what

the company meant by 'nutritious' he said: 'provides nutrients and

can be a part of a healthy balanced diet'. He admitted this could

also apply to a packet of sweets [candy]. When asked if Coca Cola

is 'nutritious' he replied that it is 'providing water, and I

think that is part of a balanced diet'. He agreed that by his

definition Coke is nutritious.

When asked to define 'junk food', Professor Wheelock (McDonald's

consultant on nutrition) said it was 'whatever a person doesn't

like' (in his case semolina). With disbelief mounting in the

courtroom, Richard Rampton (McDonald's QC) intervened to say that

McDonald's was not objecting to the description of their food as

'junk food'!

Peter Cox, (a Defence marketing expert) quoted from 'Behind the

Arches', a book authorised by McDonald's in 1987, as evidence that

McDonald's were engaged in 'a strategy of subversion' by trying to

alter the dietary preferences of whole nations, 'very often for

the worse'. The book states that, in Japan, McDonald's faced "a

fundamental challenge of establishing beef as a common food".

Their President, Den Fujita, said "the reason Japanese people are

so short and have yellow skins is because they have eaten nothing

but fish and rice for two thousand years"; "if we eat McDonald's

hamburgers and potatoes for a thousand years we will become

taller, our skin become white and our hair blonde".

McDonald's began a major advertising campaign in the USA in 1987

which aimed "to neutralise the junk food misconceptions about

McDonald's good food". An internal company memo, reporting on a

high level meeting in March 1986 with public relations advisors

prior to the advertising campaign, was read out in court. It

states "McDonald's should attempt to deflect the basic negative

thrust of our critics.....How do we do this? By talking

'moderation and balance'. We can't really address or defend

nutrition. We don't sell nutrition and people don't come to

McDonald's for nutrition".

The Effects of Advertising

Incredibly, Paul Preston (McDonald's UK President) claimed that

the character Ronald McDonald is intended not to "sell food" to

children, but to promote the "McDonald's experience". But an

extract from the corporation's official and confidential

'Operations Manual' was read out: "Ronald loves McDonald's and

McDonald's food. And so do children, because they love Ronald.

Remember, children exert a phenomenal influence when it comes to

restaurant selection. This means you should do everything you can

to appeal to children's love for Ronald and McDonald's."

McDonald's annual advertising and promotions budget is $1.4

billion. It was revealed in court that Geoffrey Guiliano, a

Ronald McDonald actor in the 1980's, had quit and publicly

apologised, stating "I brainwashed youngsters into doing wrong. I

want to say sorry to children everywhere for selling out to

concerns who make millions by murdering animals".

The Effects of Packaging on the Environment

McDonald's distributed 'McFact' cards nationwide for several years

publicising a scheme to recycle polystyrene waste from stores in

Nottingham, where customers were asked to put polystyrene

packaging into a separate bin, "for recycling into such things as

plant pots and coat hangers". Ed Oakley (Chief Purchasing Officer

for McDonald's UK) admitted that the company had not recycled any

of the waste and in fact the polystyrene was "dumped".

Paul Preston, McDonald's UK President, said that if one million

customers each bought a soft drink, he would not expect more than

150 cups to end up as litter. Photographs were then put to him,

showing 27 pieces of McDonald's litter in one stretch of pavement

alone (the company has over 600 stores in the UK and serves over a

million customers each day).

In some countries the company has abandoned or limited the use of

polystyrene packaging, in part because it is not biodegradable and

takes up a lot of space in landfill sites. Ed Oakley (McDonald's

UK) stated that there is "no landfill problem in the UK".

Questioned as to whether he believes that "as long as there is

room in the dumps, there is no problem with dumping lots of

McDonald's waste in the ground?" Mr Oakley said "and everybody

else's waste, yes, that is true". He said "I can see [the dumping

of waste] to be a benefit, otherwise you will end up with lots of

vast, empty gravel pits all over the country." Asked if he was

"asserting it is an environmental benefit to dump waste in

landfill sites" he stated "It could be"...."yes, it is certainly

not a problem".

Destruction of Rainforests

Internal company documents, mistakenly disclosed to the

Defendants, were read to the court in which McDonald's admitted

the purchase in the UK in 1983/4 of beef imported from Brazil, a

rainforest country. A letter from the McDonald's Corporation to a

member of the public in the UK in 1982 stated "we can assure you

that the only Brazilian beef used by McDonald's is that purchased

by the six stores located in Brazil itself". Ed Oakley (Chief

Purchasing Officer for McDonald's UK) denied that the purchase of

Brazilian beef for use in the UK was in breach of McDonald's

policy of not using beef which originated outside the European

Union, saying "No, it was not. We still bought the hamburgers

locally. We did not buy the ingredients locally".

David Walker (the Chairman of McKey Foods, the sole supplier of

McDonald's UK hamburgers) admitted that he had personally

organised the direct import of the consignments of Brazilian beef

for McDonald's UK stores in 1983/4. A letter from Mr Walker at

the time was quoted in court. It revealed that the imports were a

matter of great controversy. The letter stated that Prince

Philip, the President of the World Wildlife Fund, had recently met

George Cohon, President of McDonald's Canada, and had said: " 'So

you are the people who are tearing down the Brazilian rainforests

and breeding cattle' to which the reply was: 'I think you are

mistaken', whereupon HRH said 'Rubbish' and stormed away".

Following this, the letter stated that Fred Turner, the Chairman

of the McDonald's Corporation, "issued a worldwide edict that no

McDonald's plant was to use Brazilian beef". The same letter

revealed that McDonald's UK had given Walker permission to use the

Brazilian beef imports.

McDonald's claim that they do not use beef from cattle reared on

recently deforested land. However, in his statement (which has

been read out during the Trial, Ray Cesca (Director of Global

Purchasing of the McDonald's Corporation) admits that when they

opened stores in Costa Rica in 1970, they were using beef from

cattle raised on ex-rainforest land, deforested in the 1950's and

1960's. In other words, some of it had been cleared less than 10

years earlier. McDonald's own definition of 'recently deforested'

is unclear and seems to fluctuate between 10 and 25 years or "from

the time that we arrive...in a country" (Gomez Gonzales,

International Meat Purchasing Manager of the McDonald's

Corporation).

McDonald's claim that they only use US-produced beef in the USA.

However, during the Trial an extract from the TV documentary

'Jungleburger' was shown, in which McDonald's beef suppliers in

Costa Rica stated that they also supplied beef for use by

McDonald's in the USA.

Employees and Trade Unions

Robert Beavers (Senior Vice-President of the US Corporation)

agreed that in the early 70's, when trade unions were trying to

organise in McDonald's in the US, the company set up a "flying

squad" of experienced managers who were despatched to a store the

same day that word came in of an attempt by workers to unionise

it. Unions made no headway.

Sid Nicholson, McDonald's UK Vice President, admitted that

McDonald's set their starting rates for crew employees for most of

the country "consistently either exactly the same as the minimum

rates of pay set by the Wages Council or just a few pence over

them". He agreed that for crew aged 21 or over the company

"couldn't actually pay any lower wages without falling foul of the

law". However, he said "I do not accept that McDonald's crew are

low paid".

Mr Nicholson said the company was not anti-union and all staff had

a right to join one. Under questioning he admitted that any

McDonald's workers interested in union membership "would not be

allowed to collect subscriptions...put up notices...pass out any

leaflets...to organise a meeting for staff to discuss conditions

at the store on the premises...or to inform the union about

conditions inside the stores" (which would be deemed 'Gross

Misconduct' and as such a 'summary sackable offence'). In fact,

Mr Nicholson agreed, "they would not be allowed to carry out any

overt union activity on McDonald's premises".

Jill Barnes, McDonald's UK Hygiene and Safety Officer, was

challenged over a previously confidential internal report into the

death by electrocution of Mark Hopkins in a Manchester store on

October 12th 1992. It had catalogued a number of company failures

and problems, and had made the damning conclusion: "Safety is not

seen as being important at store level". In addition, a Health &

Safety Executive report of 1992 concluded: "the application of

McDonald's hustle policy [ie. getting staff to work at speed] in

many restaurants was, in effect, putting the service of the

customer before the safety of employees".

Animal Welfare

Dr Neville Gregory (McDonald's expert witness) said McDonald's egg

suppliers keep chickens in battery cages, 5 chickens to a cage

with less than the size of an A4 sheet of paper per bird and with

no freedom of movement and no access to fresh air or sunshine. Ed

Oakley of McDonald's said the company had thought about switching

to free range eggs, but, not only are battery eggs "50% cheaper",

but, he claimed "hens kept in batteries are better cared for". He

said he thinks battery cages are "pretty comfortable"!

Ed Oakley (Chief Purchasing Officer for McDonald's UK) claimed

that the company "had a very real feeling that animals should be

kept and slaughtered in the most humane way possible" and so had

published an animal welfare statement two years ago. When

questioned about this so-called policy Mr Oakley admitted that the

"animal welfare policy is, in fact, just a policy to comply with

the laws of the various countries in which McDonald's operate",

and added "we do not go beyond what the law stipulates".

Food Safety

A UK 'McFact' card states: "every consignment of beef arriving at

the [McKeys] meat plant is subject to a total of 36 quality

control checks, carried out by a team of qualified technologists.

If a consignment should fail on any one check, it will be rejected

by McDonald's." All the raw beef consignments are

microbiologically tested, and categorised as 'satisfactory',

'passable', and 'unsatisfactory'. David Walker (Chairman of

McKeys, the sole supplier of the company's UK hamburgers) stated

that 'unsatisfactory' relates to beef which has a total colony of

more than 10 million bacteria per gram. He then admitted that

such consignments are, in fact, not rejected and are used for

McDonald's burgers.

McDonald's have refused to call their own expert witness on food

poisoning, Colin Clarke, who prepared a detailed report following

a visit he made to three company stores. The court heard that,

regarding the cooking of hamburgers (which he had tested), Mr

Clark in his statement "recommends that 73 deg C be the internal

minimum temperature of the final product, and that their

temperatures were not reaching that in all cases. The minimum

was, in fact, 70 deg C."

Please distribute this information far and wide.

To subscribe to the "mclibel" listserve, send email

To: majordomo@world.std.com

Subject: <not needed>

Body: subscribe mclibel

Traffic on the list is low, being primarily a news service. Please

limit submissions to news-type items about McDonalds and corporate

influence on the law.

Further information and previous updates are available on Nick

Fiddes' World Wide Web site at:-

http://anthfirst.san.ed.ac.uk/

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:04:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac's Computer

He would obviously have used a portable Notebook, as he was scribbling notes

constantly, then probably sending them via modem from cybercafes back to

Mamere's house to work up into the latest offering on the Duluoz WWW Home

Page. No waiting for dopey publishers to get around to offering for his

books, and no damn pesky editors either. A perfect place for his writings, I

think. And can you imagine what his E-Mials would have been like. If you

want a look at what it all might have been like, I'd suggest the ALT-X web site.

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 23:38:38 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Computer

In your message dated Monday 23, October 1995 you wrote :

> And can you imagine what his E-Mials would have been like. If you

> want a look at what it all might have been like, I'd suggest the ALT-X web

site.

Which is what, where?

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:24:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Mary Maguire--address

Mary, my reply to your last message re Beats--NYC bounced back as undeliberable

to your e-mail address. Please let me know whether or not you received that re

ply. You seem to be getting Beat-l mail at that address. Don't understand wha

t's happening!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:55:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: InfoSeek Net Search Results: ALT-X

http://www2.infoseek.com/Titles?qt=ALT-X

did a netsearch...got this page....

tried to open http://www.altx.com

but had some network trouble....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:34:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

please don't refer to rollins in the same breath as kerouac and

burroughs............

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:41:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Commercials

new bataille cologne by the house of 'de postmoderne' if you can't be a

writer at least you can smell like one......rene

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:47:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Volvo commercial

to gusto.........

...........who cares indeed............i wonder, could kathy acker be used

for a prozac commercial?...............baudelaire for

evian?..............imagine.........................rene...................it'

s just a

commercial..............................................commerce..............

...s........ho...........r..........t.........atten..........tion...........s.

........p.........a.........n..........s........

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:53:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: TV, Volvos, Dreams, & Jack

mac or pc?............probably a smith-corona...........at 100 words per

minute....................

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:57:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: America

hey all,

i'm doin' a zine with a 'colonialism' theme anything and everything: rants,

poetry prose, articles, creature feature..................e-mail for more

info............deadline nov. 10............the more experimental the

better/worse.........up to y'all...................getting submissions from

all over................ciao for niao...........rene

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:23:33 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: new Snyder book

I'm reading Gary Snyder's new book, *A Place in Space*, new and selected

essays, published by Counterpoint, a new press headed up by Jack Shoemaker,

formerly of North Point and Pantheon. I am very favorably impressed so far

(to about page 125). Snyder seems to me to just keep getting wiser and

funnier, with lots of great tidbits of lore and witty zen sayings. He's the

prime example of McClure's assertion that beat lit. is the literary wing of

the environmental movement. Snyder writes a bit about the beat generation in

this book, never capitalizes it or makes it a Big Deal but treats it as

another of many manifestations of the Great Subculture or "third force" that

runs throughout history. He writes on a solar powered Mac, by the way.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:48:04 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: One breath

RZZ>please don't refer to rollins in the same breath as kerouac and

>burroughs............

Deep breath, Kerouac Burroughs and Rollins, exhale.

Henry was talked about here for a bit a while ago as I recall. I brought him

up recently because he advertises Macs in the ads "What's on my Powerbook".

I used to play in a band that played with Black Flag and always will remember

what Henry did one night. I saw there was an alt.fan.henryrollins group so

I posted this true story there. Maybe some people here would be intersted

as well.

Here it is:

I saw this newsgroup so I thought I'd tell you all a story. I think you'd be

interested in hearing it if anyone is. It concerns why I am a fan of Henry

Rollins.

I am not a fan of Henry's singing. Personally I don't think it was very good.

I'm not a fan of his writing. I don't really know anything about it so I

couldn't say if it's good or bad. I did look at Get In The Van a little bit

in the store. I looked at the San Francisco passages in the early 80's. I

noticed that he made a mistake. When he was talking about Flipper and how

those guys freaked him out he got it wrong when he called Ted Falconi Flipper's

bass player. Ted played guitar. Will Shatter (Russell Wilkinson R.I.P) was

the bass player. My being a fan has nothing to do with his "artistic"

endeavors. I do think it is impressive what he has done in publishing so much

stuff, he certainly is prolific.

But I am a fan of Henry for something that took place in San Francisco in the

early 80's ('81 maybe?) outside the Mabuhay Gardens. It was a friday or

saturday night and Black Flag was headling at the Mabuhay, which they might

have been calling the Fab Mab at the time. My band was the opening band, then

was Husker Du (this was their first San Fran show), then the great Minutemen

followed by the headliner Black Flag. This was Black Flag's first show in SF

with their new singer Henry. Dez had moved on to guitar after Henry jumped

ship from his DC band. Henry was kind of psycho back then. Psycho in that he

didn't ever talk. He had a totally shaved head, smooth no nubs, and crazy

eyes. Like I said he never seemed to talk. During the Minutemen's set he

stood at the side of the stage and played air drums throughout the whole set.

Now here's why I am a fan of Henry's. During the course of the night, a bunch

of us were hanging out outside in the front of the Mab. The Mabuhay was (is?)

on Broadway in San Francisco. On weekend nights there was always a lot of

traffic so the cars were stop and go with more stop than go. I don't remember

how it began but two guys in the middle of the street among the stalled traffic

(not punk rock guys from the Mab, just regular weekend partyer types), these

two guys started arguing and yelling at each other. Their argument escalated

and their voices got louder and they got closer to each other until they

were face to face in the middle of Broadway. It was very clear they were about

to begin fighting. Who knows what would happen after that. When what do I see

but Henry snaking his way through the cars, coming up behind the one guy about

to fight with the other guy. Henry quietly and quickly snuck up behind him

and grabbed him in what was probably a wrestling hold of some sort. He pinned

back his arms immobilizing him, lifted him off his feet and walked backward

with him, effectivley separating the two combatants. This broke up the

altercation and the two guys went on their respective ways without any damage

or bloodshed. Needless to say this was one of the coolest and bravest things

I've ever seen.

This is why I'll always be a fan of Henry Rollins. I don't think much of him

artistically, but then again I don't know that much about his writings. Maybe

I'll go read something by him to see what he writes.

I have always remembered this and wanted to tell people about this event. I

figured a newsgroup called alt.fan.henryrollins would be a good place to tell

it.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:17:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: One breath

yeah well,

my brother partied with him in los angeles back in the black flag days....ho

hum ......he's now dead......an' had a lot more to say say than that

poseur..........rene....even now......too bad my brother didn't have the

money to publish his own words, aye?.......

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:56:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: w.britton1@GENIE.COM

Subject: QUERY

As a new subscriber to Beat Gen, I'm not sure who the readership is,

but I thought I'd post the following queries and see what comes out of =

the

ether:

1. I have completed the MS of a book, Whimtans=1B[D=1B[D=1B[D=1B[D=1B[D=7F=

=7F=7F=7F=1B[D=1B[C=7Ftman's Shadow: Music, Media, and M=1B[D=1B[D

=1B[C=1B[C=1B[DMulticulturalism. It traces the Whitman tradition throu=

gh Pound and Williams

and then deeply into the Beats, primarilly Ginsberg, Kerouac, Burroughs, =

and

Snyder, although I touch on Corso, Ferlinghetti, Anne Waldman and others.

It examines how these authors use music, recording technology, and inte=

rests in cross cultural

influences.

The book then examines the Whitman/Beat tradition in Native American =

and African American

literatue, examines this tradion in the poetry of Bob Dylan and Jim

Morrison, and then branches off into works by writers such as Charles Buk=

owski, performance artist

Laouie Landerson, and others. What I need is potential publishers; most =

seem to think

such a project is not marketable. Any ideas?

2. Part of this book discusses the recorded projects of the Beats,

and I'm trying to be comprehensive. I'm hopefull I know of all Kerouc

recordings, both sound and visual, and most of Tinsberg's. I know of som=

e Burroughs

but very little else. Any listings you can post would be helpful.

I too very much like Snyder's new book, A Place in Space,

especially the latter two thirds which are both deeper and look to the =

future.

He's as important an essayist as poet, worthy of comparison to Ralph Wald=

o Emerson.

I highly reccomend it. It's a positive voice in a cynical culture.

Can write me here or at W. B=1B[D=1B[D=7F=1B[CRITTON1!=1B[D=7F@GENIE.C=

OM

[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B=

[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[C=1B[A=1B[A=1B[B=1B[B=1B=

[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B=

[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[B=1B[K=1B[C=1B[C

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:36:49 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: FW: other recordings, spoken or sung (fwd)

Comments: cc: CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU

> From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

> I'd like to think I keep up with recordings that are out there,

>

> There's that Phillip Glass thing, HYDROGEN JUKEBOX, Steve Swallow's

> record of music set to the words of Robt Creeley (I forget the name

> of the voice, is it Carla Bley?)

*** Sheila Jordan actually

that old

> Mark Murphy jazz thing, BOP FOR KEROUAC (old, and I'm not sure it's

> weathered well, I haven't given it a listen in a long while)...

***Mark Murphy has a second disc with "Kerouac" in the title too,

relevant songs there

I just put together a cassette for Levi of beat related music by a

whole bunch of folks,

including the originals,

and, Clay, you mentioned a Terry riley disc: can you give us more specifics?,

cheers,

Greeley not Creeley

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 00:05:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: One breath

Oh, for heaven's sake.

Is there anyone in the world except Jack, Bill, Allen and Gary (and they

ain't/were not perfect) that can be brought up without someone flaming?

Why are so many people so judgemental?

Jack even liked Ike. I'm no saint but if I've gotten anything from beatdom

it's that everyone is beat, as in beatific - beauty within, beauty as a

child, beauty in the soul. Of course, some people get twisted and lose the

light, Hitler for example, Nixon was never high on my list, or Stalin. But

why flame anyone unless there is a reason, unless they have really done

something to lose thier humanity - and I don't mean making a quick buck on

some ad for the Gap or Apple.

I got flamed on another newsgroup for lamenting the death of Jerry Garcia and

pointing out his kinship to many beats. It didn't ruin my day (the day was

already ruined) but why? Aren't we all beautiful, at least in part?

I'm not a particular Henry Rollins fan although I'd love to see him sometime.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:05:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: One breath

In-Reply-To: <951025000502_132224616@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Howard Park"

at Oct 25, 95 00:05:03 am

hmmm....i sort of liked this one...

> Oh, for heaven's sake.

>

> Is there anyone in the world except Jack, Bill, Allen and Gary (and they

> ain't/were not perfect) that can be brought up without someone flaming?

there are so many beautiful people....if we choose to open our minds and

our eyes..... i think that's why i like neal..... he sure did like people....

> Why are so many people so judgemental?

wow..that's a tough one... i think people judge because they are afraid..

... so they get real nasty, you know... start hurting others because it's

easy to do.... it's real hard to sit back...and open one's mind.....

> Jack even liked Ike. I'm no saint but if I've gotten anything from beatdom

> it's that everyone is beat, as in beatific - beauty within, beauty as a

> child, beauty in the soul.

saints are highly overrated.... *smile*... i mean, it's like we

put beautiful and kind people up on this pedestal...like jesus, you know...

and he was just as human as the next guy...he just knew how to love....

but then they made him a god...and took away that human aspect..... why

should anyone think they can be like jesus or any other god when they are

only human? so they punish themselves for not being gods...and they

punish others for not believing in these gods....and so few

even try to be this way...to be kind.... to give.....to love....

> Of course, some people get twisted and lose the

> light, Hitler for example, Nixon was never high on my list, or Stalin. But

> why flame anyone unless there is a reason, unless they have really done

> something to lose thier humanity - and I don't mean making a quick buck on

> some ad for the Gap or Apple.

flaming never changed perspective.... it usually irritates the one being

flamed.... you piss off a guy like hitler...do you really think he's

going to look in the mirror and say..."hmm...maybe they are right"

so let it go....can't control it...so don't try...

> I got flamed on another newsgroup for lamenting the death of Jerry Garcia and

> pointing out his kinship to many beats. It didn't ruin my day (the day was

> already ruined) but why? Aren't we all beautiful, at least in part?

i feel for you man....never listened to the dead......but there are lots

of angry people in this world.... jerry wasn't one of them... that's all

i need to know....keep the spirit alive....

peace

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:31:56 CDT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: bs at AUC <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Ginsberg on talk show

Last night AG was a featured guest on the "Selina Scott Show" which is

broadcast on NBC/Superchannel here in Europe. It was about twenty minutes

of chat plus a performance by AG of a rap he referred to as one he had

performed together with Paul McCartney at the RAH a few days earlier. The

chat was semi-interesting, including some historical remarks about banned

books trial (Burroughs etc) and some of AG's family history. European

subscribers might want to on the alert for re-runs of the show, probably

late-night, weekends, on NBC/Superchannel via cable or satellite...

Regards,

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 12:11:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeremy Ocean <JeremyO@SMTP.IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Pull My Daisy (Robert Frank)

-- [ From: Jeremy Ocean * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

All:

First off, just wondering if this mailing list is available in a Digest form

(big bunch 'o messages in a single e-mail to me), i didn't see anything

refering to it. About how much traffic does the list get <messages per day?

>.

If anyone is interested in seeing 'Pull my Daisy', the Robert Frank film

with the beats in it e-mail me, oh yea, you have to be in the New Jersey

area, specifically S.Jersey. It's possible that I will be holding a showing

of it at a college down here. Any info on the movie or Robert Frank in

perticular would be much appreciated. I'm just started getting into Frank

this week, and I'm hungry for info. Take care...

JeremyO

<JeremyO@ix.netcom.com>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:20:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (Robert Frank)

Debra Parr had a showing, last spring, at Webster University in St. Louis. It

was quite a grand event. I never realized how goofy everyone looked!!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:40:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: America

In-Reply-To: <951024145716_131728562@mail04.mail.aol.com> from "Rene Zamora

Zepeda" at Oct 24, 95 02:57:16 pm

rene...send more info re:zine\

carl@world.std.com

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:48:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: QUERY

>From everything I have heard, the beats are white-hot in publishing circles

although only titles like On The Road truely mass-market. The Beats have

been adopted by influential segments of "Gereration X" as Time magazine might

describe it.

Contact some more publishers!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:21:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: The Commerce of Kerouac

In the latest issue of Time magazine that I received in the mail today -

there is an insert from Volvo that ties in with their TV campaign. The front

of the ad booklet shows scenes from the ads - the third scene shows the guy

holding an "old" copy of On The Road.

The text inside reads: "Always the romantic, John remembered to bring ON THE

ROAD. Not one of those new printings he'd seen in the bookstore at the mall,

but the original one that he had stored away in the attic."

The only problem here is that the picture of the book is bogus - there never

was an edition of ON THE ROAD that looked like that - with those graphics

ande colored covers - the artwork of this supposed "original" edition was

made up by some ad guy a few months ago!

Couldn't a big agency like the one that created this On The Road Volvo ad

find a true first edition of On The Road to use in the commercials? What were

they up to? And then I remembered:

This recent spurt of Kerouac in commercials is not new - before Kerouac

wearing levis and this Volvo ad, there was an interesting case of Kerouac

commercialism - In 1986 (almost 10 years ago already!), the Banana Republic

clothing company, based in San Francisco, started marketing a leather "On The

Road" jacket for $239.00 in their mail-order catalogue. The catalogue page

not only highlighted the leather jacket but dedicated it "for Jack Kerouac"

and there was ad copy written in the style of an On The Road passage

describing the hipness of the jacket. The following comment appeared after

the Kerouacesque copy: "When our writer slipped on this jacket and sat

behind the wheel of his typewriter, the spirit of Jack Kerouac hitched a

ride-Ed."

To top it all off - next to the jacket picture was a reproduction of the

first edition of On The Road published by Viking Press in 1957.

Some heads must of rolled at the ad agency since the dust jacket of On The

Road was copyrighted material. and could it be that it was used without

permission of the publisher in the mail-order catalogue?

When the next issue of Banana Republic's catalogue came out -

not surprisingly, the picture of the Viking On The Road first edition was

absent from the page. Instead, there was an endorsement from none other than

Lawrence Ferlinghetti who in a facsimile signed paragraph called this leather

On The Road jacket

a "dream raiment" and said that with the jacket on, "I feel like Jack Kerouac

himself being driven like a king in a 1950s limousine

by Neal Cassady through the Great American night." YUK!!!

Come on, Larry! What a bunch of crap!!

If we as a group are getting sick of seeing all the Beats in these ads -

don't worry. Soon enough, Madison Avenue will realize that these commercials

are not effective and do not sell the advertised products - the only sales

that may increase because of increased public awareness are the sales of the

authors' books.

Any comments?

Jeffrey Weinberg

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 23:29:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Karpp <GustoEater@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

If I were an ad executive, I am sure I would have read the beats at some

point in my life, (after all executives are not stupid nor uneducated) and

would be real proud to display something from my youth in my campaigns to

sell things. No matter what I do in my life, I hope to bring some awareness

to the people around me of the beats, these guys on Madison avenue as

everyone keeps saying just have a far greater circulation than I ever will.

Thanks for listening to me again. Does anyone agree with me?

gustoeater

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 23:47:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

What's the address for Levi's website - litkicks?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:50:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:21:33 EST

What a great memory, Jeff W.!

I've always been a bit suspicious of Ferlinghetti... after all, _he_ was

making money off these cats! I never liked his "stumble bum" assessment

of Kerouac-on-the-scene. I didn't feel right about him. The blurb for

bananas fits the picture I have in mind.

By the way, Jeff... any chance that Water Row had/has a first edition

(signed, of course) of OTR that could have been leased to Volvo???

Just wonderin'

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:05:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

Jim - Thanks for the reply -

We don't have a signed first edition in stock at this time but we do have a

fabulous facsimile reprint that Volvo could have ordered.

It looks exactly like the real thing, dust jacket and all (except for a line

on the copyright page). A great Xmas gift!

But Volvo probably inquired about using the real book as an ad image and

didn't want to pay the fee to Viking? (conjecture, only)

The one they used in the ad appears to have been produced on a color HP

printer.

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:16:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <951025232906_77703428@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Douglas Karpp"

at Oct 25, 95 11:29:08 pm

> If I were an ad executive, I am sure I would have read the beats at some

> point in my life, (after all executives are not stupid nor uneducated) and

In my work on Wall Street I've met some executives who are very stupid (though,

unfortunately, highly educated) but REGARDLESS OF THAT ... I couldn't help

bringing up the interesting factoid that several beat writers were involved

in the ad business. I can't remember (I'm at work, don't have books with

me) what position he held exactly, but Allen Ginsberg was doing something

in the advertising business (I think he was a marketing researcher?) before

he become a famous poet, and I remember being amused by hearing that he'd

worked on the "brush-a brush-a brush-a" ad campaign for Ipana Toothpaste,

which was featured in the movie version of "Grease."

The poet Lew Welch was working in advertising in Chicago when his college

friends Philip Whalen and Gary Snyder read at the famous 1955 Six Gallery

poetry reading. He quit and left for San Francisco as soon as he heard that

"something was happening" out there. It's been said that he came up with the

line "Raid kills bugs dead." Can anyone verify this?

Just as college graduates gravitate towards software and multimedia these days,

I think they gravitated towards the ad business, and related fields, back

in the fifties. Anyway, just more trivia ...

For the person who asked for the URL for my website, it's in my .sig below.

Thanks for asking.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:26:25 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: otr dust jacket

While I'm not lucky enough to have a first edition of OTR, I did manage to come

upon a tattered dust jacket. I can let Volvo have it at a very reasonable pric

e should they be interested.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:26:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: The COmmerce of Kerouac

Forwarded to: smtp[BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@Gems.VCU.EDU]

cc:

Comments by: Kirsten A. Hirsch@Commons@USC

-------------------------- [Original Message] -------------------------

What edition of the Banana Republic catalog are you referring to? I have all

of 86 in my office (don't ask why) and I can't seem to find the LF

endorsement or the picture of the ON THE ROAD jacket cover. I found the

jacket though...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:27:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Ellis <ellisc_1@TYSON.COM>

Subject: New Guy Query

Hello, I'm new here and was wondering if anyone ever discusses the likes of

Alan Watts, Gary Snyder, or the oldest of the Beats, Chuang Tsu?

- ellisc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:30:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: New Guy Query

>Hello, I'm new here and was wondering if anyone ever discusses the likes of

>Alan Watts, Gary Snyder, or the oldest of the Beats, Chuang Tsu?

>

>- ellisc

There was a guy on this list who used to try and discuss Chuang Tzu. I

think his name was Frank. He lives in Taiwan. He hasn't been around

lately. For some reason when he tried to talk about Chuang Tzu or write

poems, people here told him to shut up.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:38:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Dinsmore <DinsmoreJ@AOL.COM>

Subject: Literary Kicks

Comments: cc: brooklyn@netcom.com

Levi Asher,

When I saw your post this am, it reminded me to get a post off to you

regarding

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

This is an outstanding piece of work on the net, and fills me with beaucoup

d'info every time I'm in it. Thanks for your excellent work.

E me your snail address and I'll send you something of possible interest.

JD

John Dinsmore & Associates, Booksellers

1037 Castleton Way South

Lexington, KY 40517-2724 USA

(606) 271-8042 Daily 9:00 AM to 7:00 PM Eastern Time

email: dinsmorej@aol.com

Modern First Editions and Fine Art

"So many books, so little time."

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:44:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Ellis <ellisc_1@TYSON.COM>

Subject: Re: New Guy Query

>>There was a guy on this list who used to try and discuss Chuang Tzu. I

>think his name was Frank. He lives in Taiwan. He hasn't been around

>lately. For some reason when he tried to talk about Chuang Tzu or write

>poems, people here told him to shut up.

>

That's too bad. I think the Lacquer Garden man had influence on many

Beat-minded folks.

Frank, you still around?

- ellisc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:58:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The COmmerce of Kerouac

The BR catalogue with Ferlinghetti is Catalogue number 27. Spring 1986. Page

11.

The BR catalogue with Viking OTR picture should have been issue number 26,

although I do not have the whole catalogue, just the page numbered 17.

Hope this is helpful.

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:01:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: otr dust jacket

The point of the dust jacket substitute in the ad, I'm pretty sure, must be

that the ad agency for Volvo did not want to pay for the right to show the

real jacket (o they were flatly refused by the publisher, perhaps?)This is a

very important point since the decision to use a bogus book jacket must have

been based solely on money.

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:02:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

I made the original post and I must say that digust at the comercialization

of Art was not my only reaction.

I know who Kerouac was, and have read (sevearl times, in fact) _OTR_. But As

I watched the commercial over & over again, I placed myself in the position

of the average American with an 8th grade (sorry to say) reading level who

didn't know Jack Kerouac from a Jack O' Lantern. Then I was just confused?

How does this rambling albeit beautiful soliloquy convince anyone to buy

this car?

What were the ad execs thinking? Where's the selling point here? What do

these words, no matter whose they are, have to do with an automobile?

Thoughts?

DustyJade -- Always dream & drive

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:56:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

You are right that the Volvo marketing ad will not work, and I thought I

would give my two bits as to why...

Why does Volvo even attempt this plan?

Well, I may get flamed for this but I think it's been said before. Generation

X (whether you feel it's dead, alive, plain stupid or plain brilliant) has

built it's heroes out of tv, movie, music, and general pop culture characters

much more than it has leaders, politicians, etc. The target audience that

Volvo is trying to reach is Gen X...get out of college and have your rich

parents buy you a Volvo so you can get out on the road of life, wear flannel,

be wild and crazy...before you settle. And when you do settle, hey, you'll

have this great old Volvo to cart the kids around in...

I'm an X-er and I am damn proud of it. You know why? Because WE KNOW we are

being marketed too..we can smell it a mile away. We know that they think that

we think that Kerouac was this cool hip guy and if you paste his name and his

words and his voice on a car than we will want to have that car because

that'll mean we are just as cool and just as hip as Kerouac himself...and

that in itself, we find laughable. So what do we do? We buy something

completely different than a Volvo, or better yet HITCH A RIDE and know that

NOW we are as cool and hip as Kerouac...(just for the record, I market

products to x-ers at a university,so I have this real twisted "both sides of

the tracks" view on things...not that I'm an expert, I'm just enveloped by

this stuff and these arguements all the time)

What kills me, is that somebody came into the meeting for this ad campaign

and said something to the effect of "Okay, here's my angle. From my research

I am seeing that Kerouac and beat lit. is going through a resurrection of

sorts with the Gen x-ers and I may have my facts wrong here, but didn't

Kerouac write a book called ON THE ROAD? Get it? On the road...in a

volvo...anybody following me here?"

-Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:10:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Ellis <ellisc_1@TYSON.COM>

Subject: Re: New Guy Poem

Hey Frank,

We were meant to be happy, whatever our faces show,

If we remove the skin, and observe the skull, it is smiling.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 21:03:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

This is my first posting. Hope it is done correctly.

Regarding the use of Kerouac and the target market for the Volvo ad

campaign, I think the advertisers may be approaching things from a

"psychographic" or "values" point of view.

It may not be that Kerouac, per se, is at all what the advertisers are

interested in, but rather what he is perceived to stand for: freedom,

self-expression, individuality, etc. And the targeted audience is probably

not Gen-X, (how can they afford a $33K car?) but affluent Baby-Boomers now

facing something of a mid-life crisis.......and want to find and experience

"values" they deem important, (i.e. individuality and freedom) NOW in a way

THEY can now afford. Kerouac's "Road" is an apt metaphor (since they are

selling cars) to make the transition between perceived "values" and targeted

market.

If I was making the ad campaign pitch, this would have been my spin on it.

Besides, I've driven an 850 Turbo (but wouldn't buy one) and it IS a rocket

ship!

Also, regarding the dust jackets and covers on 1st edition OTR.......is the

photo on page 163 of Tom Clark's bio of Kerouac what it should look like in

the commerical?

Enjoying the postings and points of view.

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 21:26:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

Ben: Yes, the dust jacket pictured in Tom Clark's bio is the first edition of

OTR.

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 22:20:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeremy Ocean <JeremyO@SMTP.IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: set beat-l digest

-- [ From: Jeremy Ocean * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

set beat-l digest

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 06:44:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rene Zamora Zepeda <Quetzal666@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: otr dust jacket

can't afford a volvo....however i do remember reading 'on the road' in a

glorious thunder shower in berlin.............the combo of the two led to a

skinny dipping session and (gasp) riding the s-bahn w/o paying the

fare..........................................................................

..........................rene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 20:29:39 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: The Commerce of Kerouac

Yeah, Levi, there's a real tradition of literary men working in advertising in

the U. S. I believe it was an advertising job that Sherwood Anderson walked

away from when he began writing, and F. Scott Fitzgerald is author of the

famous line: "We keep you clean in Muscatine." Hey, everybody's got to pay

the rent.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 08:09:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ralph Virgo <rvirgo@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: otr dust jacket

You wrote:

>

>The point of the dust jacket substitute in the ad, I'm pretty sure,

must be

>that the ad agency for Volvo did not want to pay for the right to show

the

>real jacket (o they were flatly refused by the publisher,

perhaps?)This is a

>very important point since the decision to use a bogus book jacket

must have

>been based solely on money.

>Jeffrey

>

Maybe. Perhaps, instead, they were on a tight timeframe and (real or

imagined) there was not enough time to get permission. After all,

getting permission involves working with outside people and processes,

while something like the HP printer version could be knocked out

in-house pretty fast.

Ralph

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:23:37 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Mundt <bmundt@MUNDT.SC.TI.COM>

Subject: Re: America

Rene,

Can you send some more details on your request.

Thanks,

Bill Mundt

-------------------------------------

E-mail: bmundt@MUNDT.sc.ti.com

Date: 08/11/94

Time: 12:45:52

This message was sent by Chameleon

-------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:10:11 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Terry Southern

According to the Times, erstwhile 60's writer and Beat comrade Terry Southern

just died at the age of 71, while on the way to the screenwriting course he

taught at Columbia.

Any Southern remembrances out there? My favorite book of his was Red-Dirt

Marijuana and Other Tales, mostly a collection of magazine pieces. He

also wrote the screenplays for "Dr. Strangelove" and "Easy Rider."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Should I pursue a path so twisted?

Or should I crawl, defeated and gifted?"

-- Patti Smith

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:56:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Terry Southern

>Any Southern remembrances out there?

As for memories of Southern, I'm a bit too young. But I've been steeped in Ed

Sanders' work this fall, and two days ago read the Terry Southern chapter in

Sanders' hilarious _Shards of God_, which takes place at the 68 Demo

convention in Chicago. As to Southern's activities in that chapter, I'll but

point you to the text,

saying only that he admirably maintains the novel's high moral tone.

This morning I remembered that I have the issue of Esquire featuring

convention reportage by Southern, Burroughs, Jean Genet

and John Sack. I dug it out and read the Southern first. It was his assigned

task to cover the absurdity of the event; he was described as the "American

author most capable of handling frenzy on a gigantic scale," yet the violence

level sickened ( and fascinated) him. In the last paragraphs of the article,

Southern is sitting in a bar with William Styron, John Marquand Jr. and a

middle aged man in a Hubert Humphrey banded straw hat, watching cops club

kids:

"Those damn kids, he ( Humphrey man) muttered, "I haven't seen a clean one

yet. Then he looked back out into the street where, at that moment, a flying

squad of blue helmets and gas masks, clubs swinging, charged straight into a

crowd obviously of bystanders.

"Hell," he grunted, "I'd just as soon live in one of those damn police states

as put up with that kind of thing".

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:02:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Terry Southern

If I remember correctly, Terry Southern has some nice scenes in "Burroughs

The Movie." Maybe I'll take a look at them tonight.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:36:41 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Dinielli <gene_dinielli@QMBRIDGE.CALSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Beat LitServe

Subject: Time:11:34 AM

OFFICE MEMO Beat LitServe Date:10/31/95

I would like to subscribe to your list on Beat Literature.

Gene Dinielli

gene_dinielli@qmbridge.calstate.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:54:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Beat LitServe

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:36:41 -0800 from

<gene_dinielli@QMBRIDGE.CALSTATE.EDU>

To subscribe to Beat-l, send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. In the

body of your mail type: subscribe beat-l first name last name.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:11:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J. Darren Bishop" <URJTVAB@IUP.BITNET>

Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Subject: Re: Terry Southern

Can anyone give me more information on "Burroughs the Movie?" I would

appreciate anything that would lead me to it. Thank you

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:42:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Terry Southern

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:11:10 -0500 from <URJTVAB@IUP>

On Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:11:10 -0500 J. Darren Bishop said:

>Can anyone give me more information on "Burroughs the Movie?" I would

>appreciate anything that would lead me to it. Thank you

Burroughs: the Movie. Giorno Poetry Systems Institute, c1985. 87 minutes.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:00:53 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terry Southern

I must say when I saw Levi's message about Southern dying the song "If you

want it, here it is. I can get it" immediately began to run through my

mind. I had read in the paper that Southern died but that didn't kick in

the Badfinger association.

This song was the "theme song" of a movie called the Magic Christian that

starred Ringo Starr. It was based on a Southern book and the screenplay

was also probably written by Southern (I don't know though). Starr was in

another Southern movie called Candy. I remember a scene from Magic

Christian with John Cleese pre-Monty Python. Cleese played a snooty art

dealer and Ringo Starr as the richest man alive bought an old painting.

After he bought it he took a pair of scissors and cut out a face in the

painting and discarded the rest of it to the apoplectic gasp of Cleese--cue

Badfinger theme music (written by Paul McCartney).

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 20:36:58 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Terry Southern

Southern read at the NYU Beat Lit. conference in May of '94. David Amram and

his quintet were playing and some old guy was sitting on the piano bench

doing nothing. I was wondering who the old guy was. Then he got up to read.

It was Southern, looking like the ghost of Paris past. He had already had one

stroke I believe. He read a story from *Red Dirt Marijuana and Other Tastes.*

It was great to see a living legend in the flesh and hear him read, like

seeing Fats Domino in New Orleans and hearing him sing "Blueberry Hill."

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 19:00:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SangreToro@AOL.COM

Subject: alan watts

I had been trying to get a discussion going about Alan Watts in some other

list (i now unsubscribed fro almost all of them). I'd be interested in

discussing him and his works. Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:56:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BBurg59024@AOL.COM

Subject: Subscribe Beat-LBrio B.user.

would like to subscribe to Beat-L...and advertize New Book

with original Lawrence Ferlinghetti drawing on the cover...

Book called STREET KIDS AND OTHER PLAYS, author Brio Burgess, can be ordered

from the distributor in San Bernardino,

Borgo Press, or from City Lights Books at 261 Columbus Ave.

San Francisco, Calif. 94133...just ask for it by name, it's in

the consignment section...of the store...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:33:09 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951130.231328.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

> This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

But jack was not as into the whole scene as the other two..as i recall,

he had quite a hang up about sex, homo or otherwise...

>

> Neal also slept with them.

'sright.

>

Tsaelinah

(in a jar)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:37:15 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>

>

> The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I

First off, go read Dharma Bums. Now. Go. Yes, you. =)

> believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore

> Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so

maybe

> Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?

> Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.

woooaaaahhhh...

man, i never saw that...i don't know if it's a legitimate interpretation,

but it is pretty interesting...

i think i'm gonna go read that oedipus rex that's been sitting in me

bookshelf for some time....

hehehe....coool...

Tsaelinah

(in a jar)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:42:33 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: the oedipus thang

well now...

looking in me handy-dandy book o'greek myths, i see that YES indeedy,

Eric, Laius, Oedipus' father, pierced his feet with a nail at his

birth...he bound them together and then left him on Mt Cithaeron so he

wouldn't grow up to kill Laius off...

Tsaelinah

(in a jar)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:44:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg

Clarification here: I know that Ginseberg's gay and had sex with several of

our Beat fellows. My question, which a few of your answered with clarity, had

to do with whether or not he was having and promoting the idea of having sex

with children. Someone pointed out that by 50's standards he was "sexually

deviant" simply by practicing homosexuality, and so why wouldn't he be

deviant by today's standards? Are we really putting having sex with boys and

having sex with male adults on the same level of "deviance" (And just so

there's no confusion, let me clarify that I DON'T consider homosexuality

deviant). Does anyone else think sleeping with children isn't a behavior we

necessarily want in our heroes?

- Liz

"...who journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver &

waited in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in Denver and

finally went away to find out the Time, & now Denver is lonesome for her

heroes...." (from "Howl")

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:11:59 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: phoning Naomi

In-Reply-To: <951130.230947.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

and after you post the number, let's all agree on a designated time to flood his

line with prank calls....

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:08:14 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

>Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

>

>I already responded and put in my two cents on this topic, but let me add this:

>He is the one that leaves his number and address listed, he must not mind. Now

>for those of us who do not live in the area, but would still be interested in

>the public access information, please post it.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Since it is public access information, why don't you look it up.

>Every library in US probably has a Manhatten phone book.

>

> Love Always,

>` Eric Simpkins

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:13:35 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: beatnik meets bohemian

In-Reply-To: <951130.231920.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

I like to shop at The Gap too....

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:14:05 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

>

>this thought just occured to me... not that i am beating this to death, but

>did anyone ever think that maybe the reason behind gen-x being lazy and

>sluggish...

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Lazy Gen Xers is the same stereotyping that led to the creation of the

>dirty, dope fiend Beatnik image that pervades the notion of the Beat

>Generation. Unfortunately many peopl e out there and on this listseem

>to forget that they were all artists and contributed a great deal to

>blossoming American position in the post-WWII art world. There was

>alot more to them than the Beatnik, just liike the artists of Gen X

>are much more than Kurt Cobain and other media created representatives.

>I don't know what any other under 35's out ht there think, but I

>find it horrible that Bret Easton Ellis and others are called the

>writers of "our" generation.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:14:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg

It was I who put homosexuality on the same level as pedophilia. I know, they

are not even close but homosexuality in the fifties is similar to pedophilia

in th nineties. Also, sure, I don't want a hero who sleeps with little boys,

but i still admire the beat poets works and philosophies regarding life/

politics.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

p.s. So the only deciding factor to whether i was right regarding the Oedipus

thing was whether JK's father's name was Leo. Was it?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:19:25 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages

In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>

interesting theory, albeit maybe too pseudo-intellectual to take seriously, but

let's analyze, shall we:

maybe Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced

foot"), was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a goddess for

a mom (not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a

mortal and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks

and so on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily too...but

consider this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom is a

deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...

I don't buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...

Cordially,

CHRIS

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I

>heard that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,

>Leo, and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time

>Oedipus pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on

>the cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)

>believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore

>Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe

>Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?

>Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.

>

> Love Always,

> Eric Simpkins

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:50:25 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In message <C0DCBD3001C93A7C@-SMF-> BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:

>

> No Tabula Rasa is not engraved in stone but it is a very valid theory.

>

Molly

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I would like to know what you mean here.

To say that something is "a very valid theory" seems to me to be the same as

saying it is true. Is this what you mean? I have some difficulty in seeing

this idea as more than a hypothesis on whose behalf quite a lot of evidence

can be adduced -- would you be prepared to accept that as an assessment of

the idea of the new born baby as a blank sheet on which anything can be

written?

I probably take this line because I don't accept the idea. You are into the

whole nature/nurture debate, and it seems to me that what work has been done

on this (and it is a lot) indicates what common sense would have suggested

anyway -- that a great deal of what we become is induced by our own

experience of the world around us (which is not the same as the way the

world around us actually *is*), but some of it is just there -- we are born

with (or without it)

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:43:41 +1100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David R <uagyb@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>

Subject: Where?

Hi there,

Many years ago, I read a passage in "Visions of Cody" which moved me

greatly. If I recall correctly, it was before Jack catches up with Neal

(call them what you will), and he is just describing the kind of man his

friend is. About how he can do this, and that, and looks a certain way, and

how he can get away with things, just generally what a great guy

Neal/Cody/Dean is, and how Jack can't wait to catch up with him. It shows

the depth of admiration and love that Jack held for Neal and when I read it

I was overcome by my own understanding of this.

It may be some time until I get the chance to read it again, and I can't

find it when I flick through. So I wondered if any of you can direct me to

the whereabouts of this passage. If not, it won't be so bad if I read it

over Christmas, will it?

If any of you haven't read it, do yourselves a favour...

David

PS: Pardon the vague nature of this, but it was a while ago.

"Another fine product from Happy Acres"

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:37:51 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>

Laius, Oedipus' father, pierced him through the ankles, tied his feet

together and left him to die. It seems to me that "Percepied" and

Oedipus' tale--not to mention complex--are key to reading _The

Subterraneans_ and to understanding Kerouac's Oedipal problems.

Dan Terkla

Illinois Wesleyan Univ.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:12:48 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Mr. Congeniality wrote:

> The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I

> heard that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's

name,

> Leo, and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time

> Oedipus pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on

> the cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)

> believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore

> Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so

maybe

> Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?

> Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.

>

> Love Always,

> Eric Simpkins

>

Kinda. Oedipus' father has his foot pierced when he had him (oed) hung

in the woods to get rid of him (Oed was prophecized to "kill hjis father

and marry his mother," of course-- thus the Oedipal complex.) Pierced,

swollen, etc.-- whatever word you want to translate-- and you get our

Greek hero's name.

Yrs. &c.

S.J. Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:17:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Exist. & American Beats

Comments: To: "Dan E." <D1ervin@AOL.COM>

> Dan E wrote:

> To say that the Beat movement (literarily speaking) was not moving in the

> opposite direction of American Existentialism is ridiculous. The Beats

> finally saw the need (as did Whitman) for a celebration of self (as opposed

> to us all being Invisble Men, etc.). Existentialism took American lit.

> (primarily fiction) dangerously close to an edge which, if pushed over, may

> have never been able to come back from. The Beats- not necessarily in a

> concious effort to defend against the Existentialists- and the postmodernist

> since then (everyone from the periphery of society: from Momaday to Silko,

> etc.) have made a move in the very opposite direction. Existentialism, if we

> can approximate its center, rested mainly in mainstream culture (white,

> middlie class). The Beats began the motion of an outward spiral so that art

> began to prosper in the outer edges of society. Want proof? Who's hot?

> Native American writers, feminist writers, African American writers, Latino

> writers? Look on the Discovery channel. Four nights out of five there is a

> show on Indian heritage. Need I say more. Before you give up on the

> argument, think it through.

I want to bring up a couple of issues related to the idea that Beat

writers/Beat writing was moving in a direction OPPOSITE that of

"American Existentialists". Maybe it's the idea of "American"

existentialism that's got me hung up... are there characteristics

particular to the American character that it integrated into European

existentialist thinking, some sort of mutation, making an American

Existentialism to begin with? I'm not entirely convinced from your

argument that such a being exists.

Existentialism was/is not a movement, philosophically or otherwise.

It was a perception of existence than ran counter to the Hegelian

concept of formalized philosophy. It was reaction against traditional

canons of western philosophical thinking. A reaction. That's why you

get those like Sartre who, for all that we've read of his work,

literarily or formally, claimed he was not an existentialist,

because to adopt that mantle would be to become part of the very

tradition "existentialist" thinking sought to bring a new perspective

to. French intellectual expression is, I think by definition, much

more formal in its presentation anyway, so if there is a way out of

that apparent contradiction, at least for Sartre, there it is.

Now to the idea that the Beat phenomenon, or whatever, was something

that ran COUNTER to existential thought:

Norman Mailer, in his 1959 essay THE WHITE NEGRO, addresses this

issue so succinctly (succinctly for Mailer anywway) that I would just

say, read that, and read it closely. He seemed to have his pulse on

the nature of the fifties counter-culture without the accompanying

baggage that might come along with actually being an "accomplice" to

the Beat "conspiracy".

Now he does recognize an "American Existentialist", but contrary to

thoughts that the Beats, literarily or otherwise, ran counter to

this, Mailer says that the "White Negro", the Beat character, IS the

American Existentialist:

"It is on this bleak scene that a phenomenon has appeared: the

American existentialist--the hipster, the man who knows that if our

collective condition is to live with instant death by atomic war,

relatively quick death by the State as l'univers concentrationaire,

or with a slow death by conformity with every creative and rebellious

instinct stifled (at what damage to the mind and the heart and the

liver and the nerves no research foundation for cancer will discover

in a hurry), if the fate of twentieth century man is to live with

death from adolescence to premature senescence, why then the only

life-giving answer is to accept the terms of death, to live with

death as immediate danger, to divorce oneself from society, to exist

without roots, to set out on that uncharted journey into the

rebellious imperatives of the self...."

"To be an existentialist, one must be able to free oneself--one must

know one's desires, one's rages, one's anguish, one must be aware of

the character of one's frustration and know what would satisfy it.

The overcivilized man can be an existentialist only if it is chic,

and deserts it quickly for the next chic. To be a real existentialist

(Sartre admittedly to the contrary) one must be religious, one must

have one's sense of the 'purpose'--whatever the purpose may be--but a

life which is directed by one's faith in the necessity of action is a

life committed to the notion that the substratum of existence is the

search, the end meaningful but mysterious; it is impossible to live

such a life unless one's emotion provide their profound

conviction...."

Well you get the gist of what's happening here. Mailer's statement is

alive with all those buzzwords associated both with an existential

profile, as well as that associated with the mindset of the Beat as

wanderer, seeker of truth, even religious figure (the "beatitude" of

Kerouac's association with the word "Beat").

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:17:18 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages

In-Reply-To: <MailDrop1.1.951201011925@st-dorms-dyn-13.baylor.edu>

On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Chris Bryan wrote:

> let's analyze, shall we:

>

> maybe Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced

> foot"), was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a goddess

for

> a mom (not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a

> mortal and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks

> and so on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily

too...but

> consider this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom is

a

> deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...

>

> I don't buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...

>

> Cordially,

> CHRIS

>

I think it is Dionysis, God of Wine, etc. who most closely resembles

Christ-- his body being eaten, and all, by his followers... (also Osiris

in Egypt).

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:59:31 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

his mom is a

deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is totally irrelevant to where this (and the preceeding message) meant

to go, but the Virgin Mary is not a diety in the Catholic tradition and not

all Protestant Christian sects believe that Jesus and God are one and the

same. Just being a nit-picking theologist.

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I

>heard that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,

>Leo, and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time

>Oedipus pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on

>the cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)

>believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore

>Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe

>Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?

>Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.

>

> Love Always,

> Eric Simpkins

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:02:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: beatnik meets bohemian

In-Reply-To: <AF17BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->

Allen Ginsberg wore khakis

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:02:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd) (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

> This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

But jack was not as into the whole scene as the other two..as i recall,

he had quite a hang up about sex, homo or otherwise...

'sright.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

'sright - you got me on that one.

PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:14:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: who the hell is Tom Selleck?

In-Reply-To: <A317BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->

Yes it is he was also Magnum PI

Molly

MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:20:04 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Exist. & American Beats

In-Reply-To: <25920605F68@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

> > Existentialism, if we

> > can approximate its center, rested mainly in mainstream culture (white,

> > middlie class). The Beats began the motion of an outward spiral so that art

> > began to prosper in the outer edges of society. Want proof? Who's hot?

Richard Wright was white and middle class? Not.

Existence precedes essence? Hardly mainstream.

>

> Norman Mailer, in his 1959 essay THE WHITE NEGRO, addresses this

> issue so succinctly (succinctly for Mailer anywway) that I would just

> say, read that, and read it closely. He seemed to have his pulse on

> the nature of the fifties counter-culture without the accompanying

> baggage that might come along with actually being an "accomplice" to

> the Beat "conspiracy".

>

> Now he does recognize an "American Existentialist", but contrary to

> thoughts that the Beats, literarily or otherwise, ran counter to

> this, Mailer says that the "White Negro", the Beat character, IS the

> American Existentialist:

>

> "It is on this bleak scene that a phenomenon has appeared: the

> American existentialist--the hipster, the man who knows that if our

> collective condition is to live with instant death by atomic war,

> relatively quick death by the State as l'univers concentrationaire,

> or with a slow death by conformity with every creative and rebellious

> instinct stifled (at what damage to the mind and the heart and the

> liver and the nerves no research foundation for cancer will discover

> in a hurry), if the fate of twentieth century man is to live with

> death from adolescence to premature senescence, why then the only

> life-giving answer is to accept the terms of death, to live with

> death as immediate danger, to divorce oneself from society, to exist

> without roots, to set out on that uncharted journey into the

> rebellious imperatives of the self...."

>

> "To be an existentialist, one must be able to free oneself--one must

> know one's desires, one's rages, one's anguish, one must be aware of

> the character of one's frustration and know what would satisfy it.

> The overcivilized man can be an existentialist only if it is chic,

> and deserts it quickly for the next chic. To be a real existentialist

> (Sartre admittedly to the contrary) one must be religious, one must

> have one's sense of the 'purpose'--whatever the purpose may be--but a

> life which is directed by one's faith in the necessity of action is a

> life committed to the notion that the substratum of existence is the

> search, the end meaningful but mysterious; it is impossible to live

> such a life unless one's emotion provide their profound

> conviction...."

>

Yes, Norman, as usual, is, beneath his bluster, right, exactly right.

Cheers.

The Moorhead Existentialist

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:21:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Chris D." <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Beats and Existensialism

In reply to Dan E.'s message on the 29th re:Existensialism:

I think this is an interesting idea, but I fail to see why you lint the

existensialist movement with spiritual destruction. I am moderately well

read in existensialist literature and theory, and this is a conection that

I cannot make. I know that a popular conception of existensialism would

claim that the movement is little more than a wailing for a lost God, lost

life, lost dreams...But if one were to really read closely into existensialism,

they may find a more spiritually affirming message: It is precisely within

the struggle for meaning and truth that we descover our own belief systems.

I don't think the Beats and Existensials (is this a word?) are as diametrically

opposed as you may imply. Thoughts?

Chris

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:45:22 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST from

<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST Peter McGahey said:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

>Subject: Re: About Ginsberg

>

> i wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual

>relationship at one point....

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

>This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

>

>Neal also slept with them.

I don't think that I'd label Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady homosexual

just because they had some homosexual experiences. Allen Ginsberg has

had some heterosexual experiences too. That doesn't make him straight.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:50:05 EST

Reply-To: text@CUNYVM.BITNET

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 from

<SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 Mr. Congeniality said:

>The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I

>heard that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,

>Leo, and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time

>Oedipus pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on

>the cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)

>believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore

>Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe

>Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?

>Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.

>

> Love Always,

> Eric Simpkins

Oedipus means "swollen foot." His foot is injured shortly after birth.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:55:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd) (fwd)

Okay Bill, we're arguing semantics here, but I like that. I'll rephrase

it as bi-sexual or as straight with homosexual experiences. My point here

was that the original author was correct - they all had those experiences.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST Peter McGahey said:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>

> i wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual

>relationship at one point....

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

>This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

>

>Neal also slept with them.

I don't think that I'd label Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady homosexual

just because they had some homosexual experiences. Allen Ginsberg has

had some heterosexual experiences too. That doesn't make him straight.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:56:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Chris D." <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Beats and homosexuality

Why (as a culture) do we feel a need to label sexuality in term of diametric

opposition? Peter's last posting is an example of an attempt to impose a

rigid definition on a fluid and nebulous aspect of human life (ie sexuality)

I think that if we want to examine the sexual lives of the Beat writers, the

most telling conclusion at which we can arive would be that it demonstrates

that, like their writing, sexuality has become a metaphor outside the

interpretive realm of mainstream culture. By attempting to define their

sexuality with terms like "homosexual" or "straight" we are creating a

totalizing discourse of institutional oppression.

Just a thought,

Chris

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:20:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: existentialism

Thanks, Clay, for those lucid comments on American existentialism.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:36:01 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality

>Why (as a culture) do we feel a need to label sexuality in term of diametric

>opposition? Peter's last posting is an example of an attempt to impose a

>rigid definition on a fluid and nebulous aspect of human life (ie sexuality)

>I think that if we want to examine the sexual lives of the Beat writers, the

>most telling conclusion at which we can arive would be that it demonstrates

>that, like their writing, sexuality has become a metaphor outside the

>interpretive realm of mainstream culture. By attempting to define their

>sexuality with terms like "homosexual" or "straight" we are creating a

>totalizing discourse of institutional oppression.

>Just a thought,

>Chris

I don't know about your more philosophical questions here but in terms of

the post that stated Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg were all homosexual you

are correct in pointing out the flaw or limitation of that statement.

All three of these guys had sex with women. They would have to all be

called bisexual if labels were to be given. Kerouac and Cassady were

basically heterosexual men. Both had sexual experiences with men though,

that is true. Ginsberg on the other hand is basically homosexual even

though he had sex with women at times. Burroughs seems to be the truest

bisexual of the lot, all though I don't know that he would admit it. He

talked about how he would go to women prostitutes when he was young because

he wanted to have sex. He did love his wife and had a true heterosexual

relationship with her. Once they were even busted for being caught having

sex at the side of the road. In Literary Outlaw there are some interesting

anecdotes about Burroughs and his heterosexuality. On of his companions in

the early sixties in London said he thought Burroughs was a latent

heterosexual. They were at a strip show once and the guy said to burroughs

"let's get out of here". Burroughs said, "well let's just wait a little

while." The guy recounting the story was saying Burroughs was quite

enjoying himself. In a letter to kerouac, Burroughs told him he was

considering giving up men and going back to women. (Burroughs used a slang

word for vagina rather than the word women). Burroughs did have a crush

on Ginsberg in the fifties that Ginsberg didn't really reciprocate. I

don't know if they ever had sex, nor do I particularly care.

And in terms of the earlier post, I do not believe Kerouac ever had sex

with Burroughs as was stated nor did Cassady and Burroughs have sex (they

didn't necessarily like each other all that much even as friends). Nor

Cassady and Kerouac.

I don't think these aspects of their lives are particularly important. I

posted this simply for accuracy. All this information I got from the

biographies.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:47:14 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages (fwd)

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> his mom is a

>deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism)

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>This is totally irrelevant to where this (and the preceeding message) meant

>to go, but the Virgin Mary is not a diety in the Catholic tradition and not

>all Protestant Christian sects believe that Jesus and God are one and the

>same. Just being a nit-picking theologist.

I appreciate this post. But just to be even more nitpicky, theologically

if a demonination doesn't believe in the deity of Christ it, by definition,

would not be Christian.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:47:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

>>Tabula Rasa is not written in stone.

>No Tabula Rasa is not engraved in stone but it is a very valid theory.

The deep impression the Tabula Rasa theory has had upon you actually presents

a good argument for its validity.

>Cage knew that there would be sounds that he knew would occur. >Such as,

the buzz of the lights, people giggling and moving around >in their seats,

and people kicking seats etc. He knew that these >were going to happen

because of his past experiences. But, there >were also sounds that he did

not know would occur.

Is your last sentence a concession that Cage, and by extension Kerouac, might

have possible been able to use chance in their work, as you originally

asked?

I am not trying to denigrate your ideas. Just don't be surprised when people

here disagree with you, because to seize onto inevitability is to deny the

validity of much of what sparked beat literature. Why seek a return to the

uncarved block when you can't fight tabula rasa? Why bother wondering about

your original face before you were born?

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:57:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: cages and courageous

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.951201081612.36920B-100000@black.missouri.edu>

I buy into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like

transubstantiation?

CHRIS

On Fri, 01 Dec 1995 08:17:18 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Chris Bryan wrote:

>> let's analyze, shall we:

>>

>> maybe Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced

>> foot"), was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a goddess

> for

>> a mom (not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a

>> mortal and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks

>> and so on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily

> too...but

>> consider this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom

is

> a

>> deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...

>>

>> I don't buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...

>>

>> Cordially,

>> CHRIS

>>

>I think it is Dionysis, God of Wine, etc. who most closely resembles

>Christ-- his body being eaten, and all, by his followers... (also Osiris

>in Egypt).

>

>Yrs. &c.

>Steven Cahn

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:59:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Easy Fit or Traditional Fit for the ex-football player?

In-Reply-To: <0019BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->

LOL...Touche

On Fri, 01 Dec 1995 10:02:04 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Allen Ginsberg wore khakis

>

>

>

>Molly

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:25:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In-Reply-To: <E33ABF3001C93A7C@-SMF->

JULIE

Yes I do believe in some chance as with Cage and his Silent SOanta.

I know that people will disagree with me that is the purpose of a debate

I firmly believe that chance is mostly bull. There are very few events

that chance could actually occur.

SUch as, how does jack Kerouac write a book and say that it was chance.

If he didn't know the words and he didn't have any sort of experiences at

all they would not fall into place as they did

Responses?

Molly

MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:26:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Q. Who is That Lazy Sluggish Undefined Age Group?

A. Which one?

Why do I keep this going? I guess I like this topic.

A question for you, Peter or anyone, who are the writers of generation X?

Other than some of us, and Douglas Coupland, how many can you name? Really,

not being facetious, I'm curious. Could we try to compile a list of both The

Writers of Generation X and The Writers of the Beat period? I think it would

be interesting. Any takers?

And let's drop this lazy, sluggish thing, ok? It's one thing to call a group

of Nazis evil murderers and classify them as that, or a group of KKK members

on horses in white sheets evil racists or even a lesser example a group of

loggers begging and striking to keep their jobs selfish and unconcerened, but

to call an entire age group something is way too bold of a statement for me

to handle.

I really liked Chris' comment "I take personal offense -- just because I sit

in front of a computer monitor all day and don't even bother to do anything

that takes more energy than lighting a cigarette, slurping a Coke, and typing

on the keyboard doesn't mean that me or my generation is lazy..."

And a note to Chris, ciggarettes contain Vitamin C and potassium anyway, and

Cooke is a great source of fiber, and computer X-rays actually cure brain

tumors, so you're kinda exercising there.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

this thought just occured to me... not that i am beating this to death, but

did anyone ever think that maybe the reason behind gen-x being lazy and

sluggish...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lazy Gen Xers is the same stereotyping that led to the creation of the

dirty, dope fiend Beatnik image that pervades the notion of the Beat

Generation. Unfortunately many peopl e out there and on this listseem

to forget that they were all artists and contributed a great deal to

blossoming American position in the post-WWII art world. There was

alot more to them than the Beatnik, just liike the artists of Gen X

are much more than Kurt Cobain and other media created representatives.

I don't know what any other under 35's out ht there think, but I

find it horrible that Bret Easton Ellis and others are called the

writers of "our" generation.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert Greer c/o CUNY 212/346-8452 (fax 8453)"

<GREER2@BMACADM.BITNET>

Register Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg

All,

Are we getting a little too coffee clatch here or is this really important

to our interpretation of Ginsberg as a n author?

And just how old are these children we're talking about here? 6? 17? under

21?

I agree, nothing wrong with homosexuality. But that is soooooooo irrelevant.

Rita

>>Clarification here: I know that Ginseberg's gay and had sex with several of

our Beat fellows. My question, which a few of your answered with clarity, had

to do with whether or not he was having and promoting the idea of having sex

with children. Someone pointed out that by 50's standards he was "sexually

deviant" simply by practicing homosexuality, and so why wouldn't he be

deviant by today's standards? Are we really putting having sex with boys and

having sex with male adults on the same level of "deviance" (And just so

there's no confusion, let me clarify that I DON'T consider homosexuality

deviant). Does anyone else think sleeping with children isn't a behavior we

necessarily want in our heroes?

- Liz

"...who journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver &

waited in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in Denver and

finally went away to find out the Time, & now Denver is lonesome for her

heroes...." (from "Howl")>>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality

ok, here's a thought, what if we accept that we as a species are not

attracted to sexes or genders but rather people, and that's why Bill, Jack,

Neal and Allen were able to move beyond the fact that they all had the same

set of genetalia and express their love for one another in a physical way?

My theory, everyone (with very few exceptions) is bi-sexual, to conform to

the phrase, with almost no-one being purely straigght or purely gay.

Obviously, its easy to be attracted to one sex more than the other for

reasons of pure sexual enjoyment and certain quirks that often divide the

genders, but do you *love* your lover for the body or the inside? If we're

all the same color in the dark, aren't we all the same inside without our

genatalia?

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: cages and courageous

Chris said "

I buy into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like

transubstantiation?

"

But if we are familiar with Tom Robbins' Jitterbug Perfume, we remember that

according to many, Dionysius is actually the God of Drugs (incl. wine) and

the Church has raped these stories.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:12:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert Greer c/o CUNY 212/346-8452 (fax 8453)"

<GREER2@BMACADM.BITNET>

Register Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)

OPTIONS: ACK LOG LONG NOTEBOOK Beat-L

Date: none

From: Robert Greer c/o CUNY 212/346-8452 (fax 8453) Greer at BMACADM

To: Beat Generation List Beat-L at CUNYVM

Subscribe $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:12:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert Greer c/o CUNY 212/346-8452 (fax 8453)"

<GREER2@BMACADM.BITNET>

Register Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)

OPTIONS: ACK LOG LONG NOTEBOOK Beat-L

Date: none

From: Robert Greer c/o CUNY 212/346-8452 (fax 8453) Greer at BMACADM

To: Beat Generation List Beat-L at CUNYVM

Set Beat-L Digest

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:17:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality

In-Reply-To: <951201151050_40862254@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Rita T.

Friedman" at Dec 1, 95 03:10:51 pm

>

> ok, here's a thought, what if we accept that we as a species are not

> attracted to sexes or genders but rather people, and that's why Bill, Jack,

> Neal and Allen were able to move beyond the fact that they all had the same

> set of genetalia and express their love for one another in a physical way?

> My theory, everyone (with very few exceptions) is bi-sexual, to conform to

> the phrase, with almost no-one being purely straigght or purely gay.

> Obviously, its easy to be attracted to one sex more than the other for

> reasons of pure sexual enjoyment and certain quirks that often divide the

> genders, but do you *love* your lover for the body or the inside? If we're

> all the same color in the dark, aren't we all the same inside without our

> genatalia?

> Rita

estute observations sister! and robbins too....what a human....

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:13:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality

> My theory, everyone (with very few exceptions) is bi-sexual, to conform to

>the phrase, with almost no-one being purely straigght or purely gay.

> Obviously, its easy to be attracted to one sex more than the other for

>reasons of pure sexual enjoyment and certain quirks that often divide the

>genders, but do you *love* your lover for the body or the inside? If we're

>all the same color in the dark, aren't we all the same inside without our

>genatalia?

>Rita

Not to stray too far into Lennon's Give Peace a Chance-esque chants,

I think that I'll comment on the reply that sexuality is a very fluid

endeavor,

fact, whatever.. I must say that comment was some clip of genius. We love

because we love, and hate because we hate.. delving too far into this is

a little silly, and looking at it through the metaphor of water is helpful.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:13:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: cages and courageous

>Chris said "

>I buy into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like

>transubstantiation?

>

>But if we are familiar with Tom Robbins' Jitterbug Perfume, we remember

that

>according to many, Dionysius is actually the God of Drugs (incl. wine) and

>the Church has raped these stories.

I must have missed too much to follow where this is headed, but I can

add a small note that Dionysus is the patron god of theatre and

arguably the reason theatre exists today. As for the Christians and

Catholics: there have been two periods in history where theatre has

taken a leave of absence for many years, thanks to the Church.

Oddly enough, they were also revived after that period by the

Church, never the less the Church has never looked too highly

upon the Dionysisan stage cults for many reasons.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:13:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages

Love the nice GenX header.. hehe..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:00:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern

To my mind, pomo is fragmentary, distrustful of overaching, totalizing

attempts; it's assumed that such things are not possible, that a seamless

all-containing vision necesarily leaves important things out, represses,

doesn't account for important invisible formative conditions, etc.

"Postmodernism" is thus a kind of contradiction in terms: any "ism" is

suspect.

Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo. How like Proust

this attempt is, or Joyce with his interlocking books of Ireland. Burroughs,

by comparison, is all over the map. This is not to value either as good or

bad -- I'd rather read K. myself. K. certainly also has pomo aspects: I

think Dan's point is a good one, that pomos generally write from the margins.

Something to chew on.

Ted P.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:00:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

Clay,

You wrote:

>Look at the reading. For one thing, though K appears to have a copy

of OTR in front of him, notice how it appears that the book is open

no more than to the front of the inside cover. And it never changes!

He turns no pages, and though at first I thought that maybe he had

something written into the book that he was reading, now I think he

was just reciting spontaneously the entire thing. Hence, the apparent

montage of VISIONS, OTR, and whatever. There's a real interiority

about his demeanor.

- I agree -- this was the sense I got when I saw the reading at the TV

Museum. You're interpretation -- that it's improvised -- fits both K's

aesthetics and the evience of the tape. Speaking of which, do you have a

copy of this? I'd love to get my hands on it myself. Could I pay you to

make me a bootleg? (No problem if not.)

Ted Pelton

notlep@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:51:29 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Burroughs and Cassady...

In-Reply-To: <199512011734.JAA09187@hsc.usc.edu>

On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> with Burroughs as was stated nor did Cassady and Burroughs have sex (they

> didn't necessarily like each other all that much even as friends). Nor

> Cassady and Kerouac.

Heeeeeyy..now here's something that never really hit me...

Did Cassady and Burroughs really dislike each other..? Someone pleeeeze

elaborate....

I know in OTR Bull criticised Dean for being too frenetic or something to

that effect....other than that, i know little about their relationship....

Tsaelinah

(in a jar)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:08:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Is ANYone going to take me up on it?

So, anyone want to venture at listing The Significant Writers of "Generation

X" and The Beats? I'm curious at how the two lists would compare. Please.

((((((((((Kristen)))))))))))Thank you and always follow the moon (Knowing it

is female),

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:37:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Risa Leshowitz <rl5@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Existensialism

In-Reply-To: <951201.112620.EST.CSD95001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

Help, I need to get off this list as my mailbox can't handle the load.

If someone would just tell me what to do, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Risa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:42:54 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Exist. & American Beats

Dan,

When you post will you please use your last name or intial. There are at

least a couple of other Dans on the list.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:16:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)

Good point, Bill!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:37:28 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In-Reply-To: <E73ABF3001C93A7C@-SMF->

On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Eckert, Molly K wrote:

> JULIE

>

>

>

> Yes I do believe in some chance as with Cage and his Silent SOanta.

>

> I know that people will disagree with me that is the purpose of a debate

>

> I firmly believe that chance is mostly bull. There are very few events

> that chance could actually occur.

>

> SUch as, how does jack Kerouac write a book and say that it was chance.

> If he didn't know the words and he didn't have any sort of experiences at

> all they would not fall into place as they did

>

>

>

> Responses?

>

> Molly

>

> MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu

>

Actually, everything is chance. I could drop off the edge into chaos

theory, but I can't afford the headache. I'm arriving on this thread

late, but that's the emphasis behind cut-ups--- no?

Of course, within chance we then find recognizable patterns, so...

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:08:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject: jack kerouack institute for...

a few years back i read a magazine interview with ginsberg. in it , he

stated that he was teaching at a school in denver called the "jack kerouac

institute for disembodied poetics". it take it that if ginsberg is living in

ny, he is no longer teaching there. does anyone know if this school is still

around or anything about it?

Boomshenka

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 03:57:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

Comments: To: ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com, Whatuv@aol.com, cooling@students.BITNET

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: pieman@calyx.com (Aron Kay)

Sender: owner-gathering@cygnus.com

Reply-to: gathering@cygnus.com

To: gathering@cygnus.com (the pie pantry)

Date: 95-11-30 10:22:04 EST

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 00:11:52 -0800 (PST)

From: CARA N HENSON <uhensc00@mcl.ucsb.edu>

To: Amy Elizabeth Clark <aclark@scs.unr.edu>

Cc: Rebecca Addicks <addicks@sonoma.edu>, anarchy-list@cwi.nl

Subject: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 21:27 PST

From: Leila Salazar <Leila.Salazar@as.ucsb.edu>

To: umossa00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uwarna00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

ulinbc00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uguirs00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

umeloh00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uconkm00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uhensc00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ucramm00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

ucasta00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ubeand00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

ucohes00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, chuckc@as.ucsb.edu, davidf@as.ucsb.edu,

ucarde00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, u377@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

morse@magic.geol.ucsb.edu, uschej00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

ubmarley@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ubeyev00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

umeyen00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ushieg00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uschif00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ukooda00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uraabl00@mcl.ucsb.edu, ubrade00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

umowem00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ujense01@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

useifm00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, 6500wsh0@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu,

ugotta00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uschua01@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

udahmj00@mcl.ucsb.edu, ucartc01@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

umazed00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ucrows00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

ufulle00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uyounh00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

olson@magic.geol.ucsb.edu, utowns00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uscher00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uswanm00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uhogaa00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uwalkt01@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

urobit03@mcl.ucsb.edu, usvedc00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, ukimmy@mcl.ucsb.edu,

useuss@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uscotm00@mcl.ucsb.edu, uaschb00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

bjoern@cs.ucsb.edu, uchesc00@mcl.ucsb.edu, gallo@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu,

umeyel00@mcl.ucsb.edu, ujense01@mcl.ucsb.edu, ukoffl00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

ucasej01@mcl.ucsb.edu, uelhaj00@mcl.ucsb.edu, ubornk00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

ubeltj01@mcl.ucsb.edu, chelll@as.ucsb.edu, uprojv00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

joym@as.ucsb.edu, uparem00@mcl.ucsb.edu, usiraj00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

ukrack00@mcl.ucsb.edu, ubusbd00@mcl.ucsb.edu, umassj01@mcl.ucsb.edu,

dirk@cs.ucsb.edu, ualishya@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, uharrh00@mcl.ucsb.edu,

ujennc00@mcl.ucsb.edu, uurbar00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu,

uhimek00@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu, usayar01@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu

Subject: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd)

>X-POP3-Rcpt: leilas@as

>Sender: owner-bcc

>Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:11:41 +0000

>From: Erin Obrien <erino@as.ucsb.edu>

>Subject: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd)

>To: exolc@as.ucsb.edu

>cc: bcc@as.ucsb.edu

>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

>Sender: owner-bcc@as.ucsb.edu

>Precedence: bulk

>X-Administrative-Requests-To: Majordomo@as.ucsb.edu

>

>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 20:02:50 -0500

>From:Td696969@aol.com

>TO: EVERYONE DATE:

11-08-95

> TIME: 11:31

>CC:

>SUBJECT: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>PRIORITY:

>ATTACHMENTS:

>

>FYI,

>I picked this info up from some of my friends on the net...be aware!!!!

>Steve Lucas

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

>

>FORWARDED FROM: Steve Lucas

>

>>>>There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet.

>If

>you

>>receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times", DO NOT

>read

>>the message, DELETE it immediately. Please read the messages below.

>>>>

>>>>Some miscreant is sending e-mail under the title "good times"

>>>>nation-wide. If you get anything like this, DON'T DOWN LOAD >>>THE

>FILE!

> It has a virus that rewrites your hard drive,

>>>>obliterating anything on it. Please be careful and forward this

>>>>mail to anyone you care about--I have.

>>>>

>>>>WARNING!!!!!!!!!: INTERNET VIRUS

>>>>

>>>>The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a

>>>>matter of major importance to any regular user of the InterNet.

>>>>Apparently, a new computer virus has been engineered by a

>>>>user of America Online that is unparalleled in its destructive

>>>>capability. Other, more well-known viruses such as Stoned,

>>>>Airwolf, and Michaelangelo pale in comparison to the

>>>>prospects of this newest creation by a warped mentality. What

>>>>makes this virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the fact that no

>>>>program needs to be exchanged for a new computer to be

>>>>infected. It can be spread through the existing e-mail systems

>>>>of the InterNet. Once a computer is infected, one of several

>>>>things can happen. If the computer contains a hard drive, that

>>>>will most likely be destroyed. If the program is not stopped, the

>>>>computer's processor will be placed in an nth-complexity

>>>>infinite binary loop - which can severely damage the

>>>>processor if left running that way too long. Unfortunately, most

>>>>novice computer users will not realize what is happening until

>>>>it is far too late. Luckily, there is one sure means of detecting

>>>>what is now known as the "Good Times" virus. It always travels

>>>>to new computers the same way in a text e-mail message with

>>>>the subject line reading simply "Good Times". Avoiding

>>>>infection is easy once the file has been received - not reading

>>>>it. The act of loading the file into the mail server's ASCII buffer

>>>>causes the "Good Times" mainline program to initialize and

>>>>execute. The program is highly intelligent - it will send copies of

>>>>itself to everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a

>>>>received-mail file or a sent- mail file, if it can find one. It will

>>>>then proceed to trash the computer it is running on. The bottom line

>>>>here is - if you receive a file with the subject line "Good

>>>>Times", delete it immediately! Do not read it! Rest assured

>>>>that whoever's name was on the "From:" line was surely struck

>>>>by the virus. Warn your friends and local system users of this

>>>>newest threat to the InterNet! It could save them a lot of time

>>>>and money.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>Donna Caissie, Office Manager

>>UltraNet Communications

>>The Premier Internet Access Provider in New England!

>>

>>

>Michael Murphy

>Director of High Speed Access

>UltraNet Communications, Inc.

>508-229-8400 x3020

>

>

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>Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:20:26 -0500

>Message-Id: <ebfa6740@hchp.org>

>From: Beverly_Lucas@hchp.org (Beverly Lucas)

>Subject: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>To: slucas@whdh.com

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

>

>

>

>

>

Leila Salazar

A.S. Environmental Affairs Board Chair

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:29:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: who the hell is Tom Selleck?

the mustached guy from magnum p.i.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:20:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I know that people will disagree with me that is the purpose of a debate

I firmly believe that chance is mostly bull. There are very few events

that chance could actually occur.

SUch as, how does jack Kerouac write a book and say that it was chance.

If he didn't know the words and he didn't have any sort of experiences at

all they would not fall into place as they did

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To answer this would be to solve all the problems the literary critics

have been attacking for the past hundred years. Without going into

Derrida, Saussure, Jakobson and Russian Formalism all the way through

Foucault and deconstuctionism etc I could not even begin to address

the entire notion that a writer may not have control over the

art she produces. Before you jump on me - these are the views of the

leading crit theories , not MINE. Anyway, if I could properly answer

that question, I wouldn't be in grad school , I'd be world renowned.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:27:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for...

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:08:34 -0500 from

<BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:08:34 -0500 Meredith Blackmann said:

>a few years back i read a magazine interview with ginsberg. in it , he

>stated that he was teaching at a school in denver called the "jack kerouac

>institute for disembodied poetics". it take it that if ginsberg is living in

>ny, he is no longer teaching there. does anyone know if this school is still

>around or anything about it?

>

>Boomshenka

The school is the Naropa Institute in Boulder, CO. Ginsberg still teaches ther

e, mostly during the summers when he's not teaching at Brooklyn College.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:29:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Q. Who is That Lazy Sluggish Undefined Age Group? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

A question for you, Peter or anyone, who are the writers of generation X?

Other than some of us, and Douglas Coupland, how many can you name? Really,

not being facetious, I'm curious. Could we try to compile a list of both The

Writers of Generation X and The Writers of the Beat period? I think it would

be interesting. Any takers?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm on my way out the door so excuse the brevity of this list:

Besides Coupland and Easton Ellis who we mentioned, there's Steven Gibb, Nancy

Smith, David Gross, Sophronia Scott, Jill Eisenstadtm, and some would list

Jay McNerny - Remember, these are those that the Man says are Gen X writers

as I mentioned earlier, I debate the validity of saying that some of them

have any idea what the generation they stand for is all about.

I would be willing to add Michael Chabon to the list as well.

What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

than the break away from society connection?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:31:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: American existentialism

Last night I was reading the Whitney catalogue, "Beat Culture and the

New America 1950-1965" when I came across this passage on page 29:

"Sociologicaly, the Beats were the first large, self-conscious, and

widely publicized group of middle-class dropouts and have sometimes been

called American existentialists. They indeed shared a sense of acute

alienation, of the absurd, and a belief in the importance of individual

action with their European counterparts. However, the Beats also

inherited a long tradition of dissent in America that runs from Emerson

and Thoreau and Whitman to the pioneer outlaw--a tradition of the

individual forging an independent way against the majority. In fact,

the Beat spirit can be traced back to the old pioneer and cowboy notion

of the excitable, intense, and independent personality exemplified by

frontier America. By the 1950s, this spirit of self-invention and

anti-assimilation was ready for renewal." What do you think?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:06:58 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for...

In-Reply-To: <951202040831_41594049@emout06.mail.aol.com>

It's the creative writing program - ba, mfa - at the naropa institute in

boulder, colorado.

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Meredith Blackmann wrote:

> a few years back i read a magazine interview with ginsberg. in it , he

> stated that he was teaching at a school in denver called the "jack kerouac

> institute for disembodied poetics". it take it that if ginsberg is living in

> ny, he is no longer teaching there. does anyone know if this school is still

> around or anything about it?

>

> Boomshenka

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:32:22 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: skinny legs and all

What was it somebody said about Tom Robbins? That he is a false Vonnegut? No,

I don't think that's right. That's a rash assessment by someone who most

likely has not read much of Robbins' work. Really Robbins is more like Thomas

Wolfe on acid. Or like Brautigan without a drinking problem. Or Kerouac with

a healthy libido. He's the professor who got into the mushrooms. He's the

journalist who stared too long at the moon. He's the novelist who worships

the goddess. As far as his plots being contrived, I guess that's a matter of

taste. For me all of his work is strong and fully realized except for *Still

Life with Woodpecker* and his latest, *Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas*, both of

which have some good bits but are not successful novels. The real connection

between Robbins and the Beats is in their expression of Joy. Check out

Kerouac's " The Origins Of Joy In Poetry" at the beginning of *Scattered

Poems*. Though Robbins' compositional strategy is almost the opposite of

Kerouac's -- he writes very slowly and revises as he goes -- they share an

affinity for Holy Lunacy and the Infinite Goof.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:44:54 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Buddhism once more

Actually Kerouac hitched a bit and Snyder hitched more than a little. More on

this later.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:51:28 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

One of my computer expert friends tells me there really is no Good Times

virus. The alert is bogus and is sort of a virus in itself.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:18:23 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Teslik <dteslik@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Virus ALERT -> "Good Times Virus a confirmed hoax

The good times virus is a confirmed hoax that's been going around for (2

years?). don't forward that message to anyone.

-derek

--------------

Derek Teslik | "The young are the only ones who bring

Helter Skelter Magazine | anything into this world, and they are not

3519 Woodbine St. | young for long"

Chevy Chase, MD 20815 | -William S. Burroughs

--------------

--DTeslik@ix.netcom.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:09:54 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: skinny legs and all

Comments: To: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org>

In-Reply-To: <155029407.118643714@RedwoodFN.org>

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Dan Barth wrote:

> What was it somebody said about Tom Robbins? That he is a false Vonnegut? No,

> I don't think that's right. That's a rash assessment by someone who most

> likely has not read much of Robbins' work. Really Robbins is more like Thomas

> Wolfe on acid. Or like Brautigan without a drinking problem. Or Kerouac with

> a healthy libido. He's the professor who got into the mushrooms. He's the

> journalist who stared too long at the moon. He's the novelist who worships

> the goddess. As far as his plots being contrived, I guess that's a matter of

>

> Best,

>

> Dan B.

>

During my time living in Seattle, I heard many stories about the good Mr.

Robbins-- whose work is grand, indeed. The vast majority were along the

lines of, "He's not very interesting and never speaks. I think he's

afraid he'll use up a good bit that could go in a book."

Since I was never in the same room with him, that I know of, that was all

right with me. But, really, you don't like "still life?" What about the

stand of the "outlaw," certainly a wild anti-hero for our time.

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:28:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for...

boomshenka-

yes, it's called Naropa! By the way, all -- check out interview with

post-Beat Naropa head (and fine poet -- I wouldn't want to compete with her

in a slam) Anne Waldman in the latest AWP Chronicle.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:29:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

>To answer this would be to solve all the problems the literary critics

have been attacking for the past hundred years. Without going into

Derrida, Saussure, Jakobson and Russian Formalism all the way through

Foucault and deconstuctionism etc I could not even begin to address

the entire notion that a writer may not have control over the

art she produces.

------------------------------------------

And not only these folks, but a whole history of "poetics" authors (such as

found in Poetics of the New American Poetry, Donald Allen, ed. -- a great

place for anyone interested in any of these writers to start: Charles Olson,

Robert Creeley, Ginsburg, Ed Dorn, etc.) and theorizers of improvisation in

all of the arts of the Post-WWII era: Cage, Pollock, Charlie Parker & Dizzy

Gillespie (theorizers as practitioners, if you will). Clark Coolidge. Amiri

Baraka. Creeley's intro to Olson's Selected Prose too is a short, concise

introduction to these issues. Anyone/anything else anyone can name? I think

that through jazz something of this aesthetic has ended up in Spike Lee.

Even Malcolm X himself, whose jazz-influenced thought I believe has yet to

really be noticed in this context, once said: "My life has been a chronology

of changes" -- to me this suggests that intellectual life itself (not just

art) can be lived (is BEST lived) a a moment to moment negotiation with new

conditions -- like jazz, like Olson's "field," etc., etc.

[To the list: I'm writing a novel about these connections, particularly white

and black exchange over such artistic concerns which then become much more.

Any suggestions, connections anyone can suggest would be helpful to me.]

: So you see, Molly, beating us over the head with your tabula rasa isn't

going to make these folks go away. If you want to read the theory, which is

persuasive, you can go the philosophical-lit crit direction or the

poetics-aesthetics route, or a little of both (Foucault's "What is an

Author?" essay in _The Order of Things_ is another easy entry, as is a lot of

Roland Barthes, who talks too about photography in a like context -- gee,

this is getting extensive ...). Either way, the body of thought about what

is too reductively simply called "chance" in all forms of making art is

formidable.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:21:45 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: WSB and gins photo: 206 Montgomery

In-Reply-To: <951201161644_122275686@emout05.mail.aol.com>

just bought ginsberg's photo collection of the beats and in the intro, a.g.

talks about how in late 50s, he and burroughs were definitely having an affair

and how he used the intimacy issue to photograph burroughs, nude and otherwise,

but was really interested in collecting them for himself...i think that pretty

well proves that burroughs and gins, at 1 time at least, had a sexual

rel'ship...

CHRIS

On Fri, 01 Dec 1995 16:16:47 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Good point, Bill!

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:25:50 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: ticket back

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.951202120625.31853B-100000@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu>

doesn't he teach summer courses in naropa but still has a nice tenured plush

salary position at brooklyn college?

lump

CHRIS

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 12:06:58 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>It's the creative writing program - ba, mfa - at the naropa institute in

>boulder, colorado.

>

>On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Meredith Blackmann wrote:

>

>> a few years back i read a magazine interview with ginsberg. in it , he

>> stated that he was teaching at a school in denver called the "jack kerouac

>> institute for disembodied poetics". it take it that if ginsberg is living in

>> ny, he is no longer teaching there. does anyone know if this school is still

>> around or anything about it?

>>

>> Boomshenka

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:32:56 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: numbers & the monkeys

In-Reply-To: <30BFCA63@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

cromwell's puritanism doesn't qualify as a "church" though it was tyrranical

enough...

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 11:13:31 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>>Chris said "

>>I buy into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like

>>transubstantiation?

>>

>>But if we are familiar with Tom Robbins' Jitterbug Perfume, we remember

>that

>>according to many, Dionysius is actually the God of Drugs (incl. wine) and

>>the Church has raped these stories.

>

>I must have missed too much to follow where this is headed, but I can

>add a small note that Dionysus is the patron god of theatre and

>arguably the reason theatre exists today. As for the Christians and

>Catholics: there have been two periods in history where theatre has

>taken a leave of absence for many years, thanks to the Church.

>

>Oddly enough, they were also revived after that period by the

>Church, never the less the Church has never looked too highly

>upon the Dionysisan stage cults for many reasons.

>

> ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:55:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Is ANYone going to take me up on it?

Douglas Copeland (obviously) & Quinten Terrentino.

My own book shelf is lined with Armistead Maupin, probably the wrong age to

be considered a voice of our generation, but maybe he should be. I heard him

talk recently, and he said people are always asking him, "How do you write so

well about straight people? How do you write so well about women? How do you

write so well about little people?" (his last book was about a 31" tall

woman). And Maupin's response to all of this was, "It's not about being

straight or gay or male or female or tall or small: it's about being human.

And that's what I'm writing about.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:59:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for...

The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

want more information on how to get this mag.

Namaste, Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:12:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: WSB and gins photo: 206 Montgomery

More about the photo collection, please! Where can I get it, how much does it

cost, etc.... Thanks! - Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:39:35 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Beats/Existentialists

In-Reply-To: <951202181248_123181710@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Liz Prato" at

Dec 2, 95 06:12:49 pm

One final thing about the Beats and Existentialism ... I'm just now reading

"Minor Characters" by Joyce Johnson for the first time, and she mentions

Kerouac heavily digging Kierkegaard. Who was, of course, the first

existentialist philosopher.

I've always seen the American Beats, the French "Existentialists" of the

postwar era (Sartre, Camus) and the "Angry Young Men" of Britian as a

triple manifestation of the same rebellion, though of course the differences

are as interesting as the similarities between these three literary groups.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some people like to go out dancing,

but other people like us, they gotta work

And there's even some evil mothers

who'll tell you life is just made out of dirt

That women never really faint

that villians always blink their eyes

That children are the only ones who blush

and that life is just a dive ..."

-- Velvet Underground, "Sweet Jane"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:35:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <951202162905_123113044@emout05.mail.aol.com>

whoever wrote that message about the history of literary criticism from

de saussure to foucault has my applause. the fact of the matter is that

the question "does an author have control over the writing that he/she

produces" is what, in buddhist metaphysics, is called a "non-evident

question," that is, a question which must be specified and honed down

before any answer can be given...

the fact of the matter is that no one has defined what an individul author

is, whether we are talking about a situation like harold bloom talks

about in "the anxiety of influence" or whether we are viewing art as a

societal "production" as marx would. likewise, we cannot say what art

actually is. phenomenologists would argue that art is a mutual creation

of the writer and reader. formalists would argue that art exists

independent of either. what i'm trying to say here by rattling off all

these theories is that the Tabula Rasa question IS MOOT!!!

i do not mind analyzing art with intellectual terms per se, but if you

are going to do it, you must be precise; for, if we are going to take

passionate work and subject it to dry, academic criteria, we better be

accurate and thorough in the procedure that we use.....

just a thought,

paul

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:28:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: skinny legs and all

Oh no!!!!!!! Not my Tommy! Tommy would never act THAT way!

but p-shaw! He's still a great writer, and I *liked* still life.....

False Vonnegut my butt! Although I wouldn't call him anyone other than tom

robbins....

Rita

PS A big hello to Lapis, whose email always makes me feel good.

********************************************************PREVIOUS

MESSSAGE************************************

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Dan Barth wrote:

> What was it somebody said about Tom Robbins? That he is a false Vonnegut?

No,

> I don't think that's right. That's a rash assessment by someone who most

> likely has not read much of Robbins' work. Really Robbins is more like

Thomas

> Wolfe on acid. Or like Brautigan without a drinking problem. Or Kerouac

with

> a healthy libido. He's the professor who got into the mushrooms. He's the

> journalist who stared too long at the moon. He's the novelist who worships

> the goddess. As far as his plots being contrived, I guess that's a matter

of

>

> Best,

>

> Dan B.

>

During my time living in Seattle, I heard many stories about the good Mr.

Robbins-- whose work is grand, indeed. The vast majority were along the

lines of, "He's not very interesting and never speaks. I think he's

afraid he'll use up a good bit that could go in a book."

Since I was never in the same room with him, that I know of, that was all

right with me. But, really, you don't like "still life?" What about the

stand of the "outlaw," certainly a wild anti-hero for our time.

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 22:21:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Amiri Baraka

I had a chance to hear Amiri Baraka read today at Vertigo Books in Wash. DC.

For the untutored, Baraka was once known as "LeRoi Jones" and was closely

associated with the beats and the East Village scene in the fifties and early

sixties. He edited Yugen, a seminal beat literary journal (anyone know

where I can find some old copies ?), is a fine poet and probably the leading

blues/jazz writer, along with Nat Hentoff, of the time. Certainly Baraka is

the leading African-American beat, along with Ted Johns and Bob Kaufmman to

name two. Yes, he knew Jack, Allen, et al. I'm not sure how he views that

experience today.

I won't attempt to describe the rest of Baraka's life to date.

Anyway, he has a new volume of collected poems, "Transbluesency".

Bakaka has a lot of rage, a "be-bop" sensibility combined with a sharp wit

and fine sense of humor. He is an unabashed "communist" - something of an

oddity outside of the ivory tower these days and, in my opinion, an ideology

that has been throughly discredited more times than there are seconds in a

milenium.

But it is a joy to hear him read as he combines the horror and pain of

slavery and opression with the beat of the jazz masters, a phoenix of joy out

of a bloody but vital and sometimes heroic history. He is, perhaps, one of

the most self rightious speakers I have ever heard. He knows where he stands

and expresses it well. Baraka does not kiss anybody's ass.

I asked him how he feels about the upcoming On The Road film. He was not

aware of it. He said they would probably not do the book justice but respects

Coppola.

Check him out if he comes to your town.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:22:41 +0900

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Kelim <jimkelim@NEPTUNE.CISP.KANAZAWA-IT.AC.JP>

Subject: Kerouac and Buddhism

Some thoughts on Kerouac's and the other Beats' Buddhism. It seems strange

to me to question the integrity of another person's spiritual path.

Someone suggesting that Kerouac should have done this or done that. He was

not a religious leader, he was an artist and those are two very different

things and should not be confused. Most people do not pick their religious

or spiritual path as intellectual exercise. We sift through what is

presented to us and choose with our hearts. I don't think that the Beats

really set out to create a "new" religion: a new way of life maybe. Which

ever path JK took only he can say if it was right or wrong because it was

his path. However, it would seem natural to look to the East if the

answers aren't found in the West and they aren't. Buddhism is not the

providence of one nation or one culture. Remember, it started in the

Nepal/India region and moved to Japan through China and Korea. In was only

natural for it to keep moving east and cross the Pacific Ocean to be

embraced by people who are (or were in JK's case) on a spiritual search.

Some people will embrace Buddhism a hundred percent like Gary Snyder (to

mention someone we all know, others like JK will take what they need and

then move on-or back to something more familiar. Which path is right?

Both and neither. Look at Bob Dylan, he first went to Christianity and

then to Judaism. Do we criticize him because first he is Christian and

then he's not and now he is something else. It's his search, not ours.

I wonder just what is Dan's problem with Buddhism anyway. Are the Buddha's

teaching corrupt or is it the religion? From what personal experience is

he talking from. I know many Buddhist monks, both here in Japan and in

Korea (where I lived for five years) and I have never found a corrupt monk

yet. Some were not devout, some were not concerned with the "religion" at

all, but with the dharma. Some were concerned with drinking and their

girlfriends. They reminded me of religious leaders in America. Some were

devout while some were not. However, the teachings of Buddha separate

themselves from the religion because they themselves are not corrupt. And

to say that the beats should have created their own superior religion (kind

of ethnocentristic don't you think) is naive. None of the beats are on the

level of Buddha and other great religious leaders. Great artists maybe.

Great religious leaders-no way. JK seemed to be weary of being called King

of the Beats and any other leadership role. His was a singular path. But

what a path. Personally, I am glad he took the one that he did. His

influence as well as the Buddhist influence has certainly made my life more

interesting.

Besides being critical of theBeats for being into Buddhism is like saying

the Rolling Stones are a great band, but too bad they play rock-n-roll.

Without Buddhism, the Beats would have been a different animal altogether.

Just as if they hadn't done the drugs.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:48:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Frick <williamf@HEVANET.COM>

Subject: Re: American existentialism

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95120211381850@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I like it.

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

wrote:

>Last night I was reading the Whitney catalogue, "Beat

Culture and the

>New America 1950-1965" when I came across this passage on

page 29:

>"Sociologicaly, the Beats were the first large,

self-conscious, and

>widely publicized group of middle-class dropouts and have

sometimes been

>called American existentialists. They indeed shared a

sense of acute

>alienation, of the absurd, and a belief in the importance

of individual

>action with their European counterparts. However, the

Beats also

>inherited a long tradition of dissent in America that runs

from Emerson

>and Thoreau and Whitman to the pioneer outlaw--a tradition

of the

>individual forging an independent way against the majority.

In fact,

>the Beat spirit can be traced back to the old pioneer and

cowboy notion

>of the excitable, intense, and independent personality

exemplified by

>frontier America. By the 1950s, this spirit of

self-invention and

>anti-assimilation was ready for renewal." What do you

think?

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 01:18:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

What in the world are "Buddhist Metaphysics"?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:39:10 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: cone of the world

In-Reply-To: <951202181248_123181710@mail06.mail.aol.com>

called SNAPSHOT POETICS with never before released photos from ginsberg's

archives of beats, from '47 until '93 and they are so cool...found it in

university bookstore...cost: $12.95 and it was awesome...it is authored by AG

with intro/ed. by K.Kohler...will send more info upon specific request

cdb

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 18:12:49 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>More about the photo collection, please! Where can I get it, how much does it

>cost, etc.... Thanks! - Liz

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:16:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: WSB and gins photo: 206 Montgomery

it is called " snap shot poetics" and is in the photography section of pretty

much any large book store... ginsberg is considered the author....

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:13:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: Baraka

I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

(which he did) in the 1950's.

I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

very disappointing.

Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 08:49:57 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In your message dated Tuesday 28, November 1995 you wrote :

> I believe...that there is no such thing as chance. Everything stems from some

> sort of experience. Our whole life has been experience after experience. If

> he says that it is chance it is probably a subconcious memory or experience >

> that is being written down onto his paper.

There is nothing *but* chance in life. Life is chance. OK, it may be that what

is 'experience' stems from a chance happening to ourselves or to our ancestors

but it is (was) chance. It was chance that your parents met one another (not

meant as a flame!)...

I'd like to expand on this later.

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:11:04 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: me and Cezanne

In-Reply-To: <951202181248_123181710@mail06.mail.aol.com>

$12.95...SNAPSHOT POETICS...ginsberg authored... 1993/4 was publication

date...if you can't find it at the bookstore of your choice, go to a national

chain like Barnes & Noble or BDalton or something and ask them to look on the

books in print list and order one for you...I work at a bookstore and i've done

this for people all the time

CHRIS

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 18:12:49 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>More about the photo collection, please! Where can I get it, how much does it

>cost, etc.... Thanks! - Liz

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:13:53 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Leroi Jones

In-Reply-To: <9512031818.AA14023@cabell.VCU.EDU>

and the fact that he [Baraka] hates Stanley Crouch, outspoken cultural critic

and former VILLAGE VOICE writer and present collaborator with Wynton Marsalis,

is a definite turn-off...

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 13:13:42 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

>think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

>that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

>American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

>(which he did) in the 1950's.

>

>I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

>was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

>very disappointing.

>

>Kirsten

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:20:14 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: grohl

Comments: To: "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8b)"

<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <01HYDGM33TBMAUXJ2J@baylor.edu>

LIZ:

if you could, please send info on mag re: naropa pronto

CHRIS

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 17:59:59 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

>Generation List) wrote:

>

>>The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

>>Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

>>Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

>>hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

>>very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

>>includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

>>fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

>>want more information on how to get this mag.

>> Namaste, Liz

>>

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:47:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: me and Cezanne

In-Reply-To: <910AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

CHRIS

What does this have to do with Cezanne???

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:49:52 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <DCE3C13001C93A7C@-SMF->

DEAR

TED

I am not trying to beat anyone over the head. I am just trying to

express my opinions of what I believe chance to be. This expression

stems from ideas that I have learned in both literature and art classes

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:58:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for...

In-Reply-To: <951202175958_123172981@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Liz Prato" at

Dec 2, 95 05:59:59 pm

->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

>

> The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

> Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

> Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

> hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

> very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

> includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

> fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

> want more information on how to get this mag.

> Namaste, Liz

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:58:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: grohl

Chris (and anyone else who's interested),

Shambhala Sun is a modern Buddhist Mag - very cool stuff, and they're soooo

enlightened that they even have e-mail! Shambhsun@aol.com. I know they're set

up so you can order past issues & you'd probably still be able to get that

July 1994 issue with Ginsberg on the cover if that's what you're interested

in. Incase you need it, their snail-mail address is: 1345 Spruce St, Boulder,

CO 80302-4886. They're published bi-monthly at a cost of $20 a year, but

sometimes have special first time rates. Hope you like it! (I should get a

comission for that pitch).

Namaste, Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:11:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

I agree with Jim - it doesn't seem fair to be critical of Jack to have stuck

exclusively to strict Buddhism. What if he believed exclusively in one

religion and practiced it by the book and never questioned it - he wouldn't

be the Jack Kerouac we all know and love. Jack was writing about experience,

his own process, not trying to be the definitive word on anything, not even

the Beat society of which he was the epicenter. I don't think what really

matters is what spiritual road he took, but that he chose to embark on one in

the first place.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:43:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: jack kerouack institute for... (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It was the first really Beat book any of them published. If I recall

corrected, JK was a bit peeved that Holmes got it published before

OTR. They are a bit similar in ways (the two books) - it's ggood though.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:45:41 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: firehouse

In-Reply-To: <960AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

molly:

you can beat me over the head with anything you want whenever you want...

CHRIS

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 15:49:52 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>DEAR

>

>TED

>

>

>

>I am not trying to beat anyone over the head. I am just trying to

>express my opinions of what I believe chance to be. This expression

>stems from ideas that I have learned in both literature and art classes

>

>MOLLY

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:47:50 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: black glasses

In-Reply-To: <950AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

one of gins' captions for one of his pictures of his Lower E. Side apt. in

fifties included an allusion to his paintings on wall, one was a portrait of

him, another was a Cezanne print...he misleads in captions by saying: "picture

of me and Cezanne" so I was looking frantically for AG with the dead artist in a

pic...

chris

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 15:47:59 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>CHRIS

>

>What does this have to do with Cezanne???

>

>Molly

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:48:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: GO man GO

In-Reply-To: <199512040058.AA26483@world.std.com>

yeah, i think i heard of it...

it's only the seminal work introducing the beat movement in 1951...

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 19:58:21 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

>(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

>

>

>

>

>>

>> The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

>> Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

>> Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

>> hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

>> very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

>> includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

>> fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

>> want more information on how to get this mag.

>> Namaste, Liz

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:53:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Balangue Christina A <cbalangu@UCET.UFL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Existensialism

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 1995 14:37:15 MST."

<Pine.SOL.3.91.951201143538.4412B-100000@dana.ucc.nau.edu>

Me too!

If I knew how, I would let you in on it.

I lost that first e-mail I received that explained how to "UNSUBSCRIBE."

Well let me know.

Christina

cbalangu@ucet.ufl.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:35:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

i believe oedipus' natural parents pierced his feet when they abandoned him

on the mountain top.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:02:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: firehouse

In-Reply-To: <E60CC33001C93A7C@-SMF->

CHRIS

Thanks for the offer...

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:26:53 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: List replies

I'm glad to see that traffic on the Beat-l list is increasing. However,

I've noticed that a lot of the messages posted on the list would be more

appropriate asprivate responses or replies to a particular sender.

Please remember to post only those replies to the list that you think

will interest all 270 subscribers.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:23:57 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <EA0CC33001C93A7C@-SMF->

>

> Molly

I'm hoping I have the right person-- some email trouble over the weekend

has signifcantly cleansed my files-- but, I'm curious. If you do believe

greatly in chance (and I think you said you came to this through study of

literature and art)-- what about responsibility? Are we responsible for

our actions-- or, to keep it in terms of BEAT-L, maybe-- was the William

Tell fiasco "chance" and should Mr. Burroughs not feel guilt?

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:54:15 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <2A4007A1FF2@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

> Ahh, you might have inadvertantly hit on something here that might

> clear up some apparent differences of opinion folks have been having

> regarding the notion of chance. If we use the example Steven Cahn

> suggested, maybe there is another way to express what we are meaning

> by "chance". Maybe it's not chance at all that we're discussing here

> (or need to discuss): maybe it's the idea of ACCIDENT. These aren't

> synonymous, at least in a literary vein, I don't think. And certainly

> chance played into the notion of WSB's Wm Tell game--we're talking

> POSSIBILITY here-- it was accident that caused Joan's death, not

> chance. Chance is forever present, possibility is (at least mosttimes

> conceivably) present, but accident is an outcome, a result, an end

> product of chance.

>

> Clay

> clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

>

My question remains, though-- given chance, possibility, or accident-- is

Mr. Burroughs responsible? He set up the game-- but where does his part

and and something else take over? I think in some writing by him on the

subject, he does talk about some invader feeling being present-- is this

just avoidance? Or something else?

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:27:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <3157C33001C93A7C@-SMF->

STEVEN

Well I am not the one who mentioned Burroughs. However, yes I did say

taht I learned chance through art and literature. And I have a very

difficult time believing in it. I do believe that some things are

chance. Such as, meeting someone on the street that you haven't seen for

ages or something like that. As for being responsible for our actions,

that is kind of difficult. If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible. Or do we blame it on them being insane. Similar to what

our court systems are trying to figure out currently for some cases.

I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility. That is why I gave

the example of the person with a mental disability. We may never know if

we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

for what we do. That can be through literature, art and music etc.

Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

us when we are born. I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

Though some people disagree with me.

Responses?

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:39:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <3357C33001C93A7C@-SMF-> from "Eckert, Molly K" at Dec 4,

95 03:27:15 pm

> Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

> us when we are born. I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

> Though some people disagree with me.

i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....

no....i can't say that we are all born as a blank slate.....

look at neal......

in his book....

here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

to separate himself from the pain and live.......

he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

he was aware......

>

> Responses?

>

> Molly

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:38:51 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <3357C33001C93A7C@-SMF->

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Eckert, Molly K wrote:

>

> Well I am not the one who mentioned Burroughs. However, yes I did say

> taht I learned chance through art and literature. And I have a very

> difficult time believing in it. I do believe that some things are

> chance. Such as, meeting someone on the street that you haven't seen for

> I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility. That is why I gave

> the example of the person with a mental disability. We may never know if

> we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

> However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

> for what we do. That can be through literature, art and music etc.

>

> Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

> us when we are born. I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

> Though some people disagree with me.

>

> Responses?

>

> Molly

>

Yes. I kinda thought I was wrong about who I attributed the thread to--

my apologies. It makes my question concerning responsibility moot, to an

extent-- I suspect, excluding people who are not "in command" for one

reason or another (and how to define that is something else-- Burroughs'

state of mind at the WmTell episode, his fault, no? So actions therafter

his responsibility-- and does anybody else feel bad about talking about

this incident so coldly on the net??) that, as you say, we are

responsible.

Though, I suppose I remain curious-- if you think we are blank slates

when born, at what point does the "subconscious" responsibility begin--

or do we remain, because we are just the result fo factors beyond our

control, innocent of all charges against us? Or is it societal "sins of

the father" we must deal with? And, in that dealing, do some produce the

art we're really supposed to be talking about here?

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:44:05 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

Comments: cc: CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

In-Reply-To: <2A6E4422F2D@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

> police reports and newspaper articles. I have read that stuff about

> his being "invaded", something I think he's used as an M.O. in

> writing at least some of his earlier works. He claims not to have

> remembered writing much of NAKED LUNCH, which could always be the

> excuse of a junkie's nodding out, but the cut ups too had much of

> their coming about as if someone "outside" had planted the

> construction of those words in just the right order. And again, those

> long ago tape recording experiments Burroughs did with a microphone

> on, recording the sounds in an "empty" room, suggest, too, this kind

> of reasoning: that there is something "out there".

>

> He may actually have believed the invader theory, to an extent,

> regarding the Wm Tell incident, but I don't think this to be any more

> than a self-defense mechanism, to spare himself some of the grief

> that full-fledged aknowledgement of his lone responsibility would've

> brought crashing down on him.

>

> I think that may be what's behind the greatness in a lot of art, an

> inexplicable aspect to a work that defies deconstruction, and commands

> acceptance on its own terms.

>

>

> Clay

> clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

>

What you're referring to is the age-old idea of the muse, perhaps?

Burroughs' "invader" idea-- which isn't the best way to put it--

his reportign for who knows what-- is just a nuclear-aged version of the

happier, more pleasant visions of inspiration, I think. And, maybe that

can't be deconstructed, at least to everyone's satisfaction.

Yrs. c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:56:22 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject: Re: Beats/Existentialists

Message-ID: red-34-msg951204205759MTP[01.51.00]000000a7-37481

The "triple manifestation" idea is great, Levi!

And how these three approaches to the rebellion are colored by their

respective nationalities!

(I'll always remember a teacher remarking how the beats were the last

artistic movement that was positive -- and now in such contrast to the

angry young men and existentialists...!)

----------

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Beats/Existentialists

Date: Saturday, December 02, 1995 4:39PM

One final thing about the Beats and Existentialism ... I'm just now reading

"Minor Characters" by Joyce Johnson for the first time, and she mentions

Kerouac heavily digging Kierkegaard. Who was, of course, the first

existentialist philosopher.

I've always seen the American Beats, the French "Existentialists" of the

postwar era (Sartre, Camus) and the "Angry Young Men" of Britian as a

triple manifestation of the same rebellion, though of course the differences

are as interesting as the similarities between these three literary groups.

------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:58:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Yeah, Steven, the whole idea of muse and inspiration might possibly

be anathema to the old man's conception of his own work. He'd

probably be much more comfortable with a more intrusive all-seeing

mind or eye "interfering" with our thought processes in order to

create anything. It's darker and more attune to Burroughs's vision of

things.

Clay

But by the same token, WE might also see that interference as being

very GOD-LIKE!! Oohhh, and would that send shivers down the old

man's spine, to be sure.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:02:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern

>Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

>to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

>Ted P.

By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

a "spawn" of the movement.

So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

and others.

By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

names.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:19:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!

Hello All-

>>>i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....>>>>

Oh c'mon, now. Is this a plea for pity? Perhaps the idea of being molded

was meant in another sense also. The one that you grow up dissatisfied with

what surrounds you, and you vow to make yourself different ("I swear that

when I have kids...")

>>>>look at neal......

in his book....

here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

to separate himself from the pain and live.......

he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

he was aware......>>>

Exactly.

This is kinda like trying to order one pizza at a big party, no-one wants the

same toppings. In other words, I don't think we are going to come to an

accord on this topic.

Chance is one of the Great Many things we have no scientific proof on. Sure,

statistically you're going to get half the tosses heads and half the tosses

tails, but that's not the same thing.

The William Tell incident? Does it really matter? The matter of fact is

that he killed wifey.

>>If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible. Or do we blame it on them being insane. Similar to what

our court systems are trying to figure out currently for some cases.>>

Well, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, Molly, but here's what

I make of it. Sometimes people do bad, bad things. ("I want to pet the

rabbits, George....") Sometimes they mean to, sometimes it just happens that

way.

>> I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.>>

Well, mebbe. There's that whole gene thing....

See, to an extent, we have the power to be whatever we want to be (no-one

flame me), but at the same time there are certain things I will never be able

to do without serious operations that probably aren't even possible yet . (I

can't flip my tongue over)

And yes, we can change our *minds*, but the question we're all asking is can

we change our *fate*. I think the best answer to that is that we can't

change what we aren't sure of to begin with. (Anyone here ever read Dick's

"The World of Jones?")

If there is fate, maybe it is best we leave it alone. Bc if it *does* exist,

then there's probably a reason. but then again, if fate really does exist,

then we can't change it anyway, now can we?

Maybe we should lay aside the art and literature books for a while (no

offense, Molly), and all just take a nice long nap instead.

Well, that's what I'm going to do. good nite all.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:09:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Jack Kerouac Lit Prize Winner

TENNESSEE WRITER WINS 7TH ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Earl S. Braggs, writer, poet and teacher from Chattanooga, TN was chosen

as the winner of the 7th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. Braggs'

entry, "After Allyson," a chapter from a novel in progress, <Looking for

Jack Kerouac>, was selected from over 400 entries of poetry, fiction and

non-fiction. The prize, a cash award of $500 was presented at the 8th

Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival, in Lowell, MA.

The judge of this year's prize, James T. Jones,Professor of English at

Southwest Missouri State University, and author of <A Map of Mexico City

Blues>, praised the level of accomplishment in all manuscript entries, but

cited Bragg's work as exemplary. "I looked for evidence of Kerouac's

influence. Not imitation Kerouac, either...but writing that aspires to the

foremost place in American letters."

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by the Estate of Jack and

Stella Kerouac (John Sampas, Literary Executor), Middlesex Community

College, University of Massachusetts Lowell. the Lowell National

Historical Park, and Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, a non-profit corporation.

This year's literary prize administrator was Brian Foye, a Professor of

English at Middlesex Community college, Lowell, MA. Writers seeking

information on the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize should send a stamped,

self-addressed envelope to the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, PO Box 8788,

Lowell, MA 01853-8788.adminsitrator

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:21:44 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951130.231328.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

> Subject: Re: About Ginsberg

>

> i wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual

> relationship at one point....

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

> This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

>

> Neal also slept with them.

>

Whoa! *Homosexual*? How about bisexual, at least when it

comes to Kerouac and

Cassady? Bill and Allen, though they both had hetero relations, count

themselves exclusively homosexual. Jack and Neal, though they had

homosexual relations, counted themselves exclusively hetero.

Best,

Steve

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:27:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Postmodernism

In-Reply-To: <30C361C7@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

Interesting notes and I applaud you on the eloquent name-drops, but

Postmodernism, though its entire thesis goes against definition and

pigeonholing, has three identifiable traits, these being the most basic and

oversimplifying an always fluid style:

1) a response to the Unimaginable:

emphasis on ambiguity in literature and art; abstractions abound; non-

objective and reader/viewer specific (see Stanley Fish's IS THERE A TEXT IN

THIS CLASS? or any Richard Rorty book)

2) concerned with denaturalization:

an open challenge to overcome the stylized boundaries and confines to which

Modernism so obediently yielded; striving for the sanctity of silence (see

Buddhism); a washing away of the established norms and rigid standards that

we rely on -- for instance, the linguistics, structuralism, and

hermeneutics that so dominate Modernism

and finally,

3) art attempts to become indistinguishable from life:

arguably, an intertwining of the former two, especially in its effects on

culture; this goes well with the recent arguments about "Chance" -- the

Modernist model held up determinism as absolute, that if we can put it all

together, we can know everything, predict results, etc. (see Enlightenment)

but Postmodernism says that it is relative and subjective, that the great

"IT" is individual-specific; overall, life is based on influence of culture

but at the same time, culture is defined by the influence of life, so they

start working interchangeably, each giving and taking, and eventually, to

the point that these little "does art mirror society or does society mirror

art" conversations wither away

This is my input and I remind you all that I am not doing the topic justice by

my sheer simplification and terseness. For further information, read the

suggestions above and see a great book called THE POSTMODERN TURN.

CHRIS BRYAN

On Mon, 04 Dec 1995 16:02:34 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>>Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

>>to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

>

>>Ted P.

>

>By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

>

>WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

>antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

>to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

>a "spawn" of the movement.

>

>So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

>and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

>and others.

>

>By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

>names.

>

> ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:40:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Chances and Choices

>Planning on chance.. hehe.. what a concept!

Not such an odd juxtaposition as it might seem on the surface!

Having just returned from a week out of town, I'm about 2/3 the way through

getting caught up on this thread about chance in creativity, and have the

need to throw in my own 2 1/2 cents worth.

1.) Chance is _not_ the same as "random" coincidence. If you read up on

probability theory, you'll find that chance is actually mathematically

predictable (if it weren't, Las Vegas could not exist). There are "laws", if

you will, of chance. Moreover, there are apparently "laws" that govern chaos;

not only might the fluttering of a butterflies wing in Australia give rise to

a hurricane in Jamaica, but it may do so in a predictable fashion!

2.) Physics aside, I do sense that this topic, applied to human creativity,

opens a Pandora's box of paradoxes. When I write, I usually have some general

theme, perhaps a few phrases, as a jumping off point. I may even adopt

further structures: meter, rhyme scheme, etc. But, what happens next does

have its element of "chance"; the words may lead me in unpredicted and

unintended directions. Sometimes, the poem that emerges is entirely different

from the poem I intended to write. Or, what is written may inspire me to

write another, unforseen, poem.

But, what gave rise to the first poem? Was it "chance" that brought together

my thoughts with the proper mood to write the poem, or that caused me to

select a poem as the medium for my thoughts, rather than a short story or an

essay (or painting, song, prayer, etc.)? Or - Did I come to write the poem as

a result of a series of conscious and cumulative choices? But if so - what

brought me to each of those choices?

Am I a poet dreaming of a butterfly in Australia, a butterfly in Australia,

or the dream of the poet who dreams of the butterfly, and so on in what is

becoming an infinite regression?

Perhaps chance and choice are closer in nature than some might think.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:22:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: New book.

There will be a new Jack Kerouac biography by Ellis Amburn coming out by

around August of next year. It will be called the "The Beat Of Life". Ellis

Amburn was in Lowell Mass. most of the summer doing research. He was JKs'

editor in the 60s. I think this will shed some light on later years. Not

much discussion about the Jan Kerouac- Nicosia-- Sampas fued. The Sampas

family is getting a bad rap and they are doing some good things relating to

the JK estate. But I still would like to see a Kerouac museum in Lowell.

What say to that? Philzi - Lowell Mass.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:42:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit) (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

As for being responsible for our actions,

that is kind of difficult. If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible Or do we blame it on them being insane.

I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility. That is why I gave

the example of the person with a mental disability. We may never know if

we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

for what we do. That can be through literature, art and music etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

What if a mentally ill - or drugged out person were to write a novel?

Are they responsible or is it chance? Who's to say whose mind is

insane and whose isn't?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

us when we are born. I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

Though some people disagree with me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Although Locke is attributed with the tabula rasa theory, I cannot see

much in what you say that the Existentialists would argue with. Does

your existence determine who you are or your essence. this gets us back

to last week's discussion on the Beats and how they view Existentialism.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:22:39 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Postmodern (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

a "spawn" of the movement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You hit the nail on the head (it's late - please excuse bad cliches)

when you say "sometimes", but how does this automatically make

any post 1945 writing PostModern. The notion of PostModernity

and PostModern criticism and art goes much deeper than merely

the time when a piece was written. Please don't degrade my

humble profession any more than it already is.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:51:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: unsubscribe

For all of you who are trying to get OFF this mailing list, send an e-mail

to:

LISTSERV@cunyvm.cuny.edu

In the body, type UNSUBSCRIBE BEAT-L

Good luck.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:03:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!

In-Reply-To: <951204161900_64081013@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Rita T.

Friedman" at Dec 4, 95 04:19:07 pm

> >>>i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

> wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

> to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....>>>>

>

> Oh c'mon, now. Is this a plea for pity? Perhaps the idea of being molded

> was meant in another sense also. The one that you grow up dissatisfied with

> what surrounds you, and you vow to make yourself different ("I swear that

> when I have kids...")

no..just a comment on environment.....recollecting...that as a

very young child....i knew there had to be another way.....and wondering,

how did i know this?

> >>>>look at neal......

> in his book....

> here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

> he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

> to separate himself from the pain and live.......

>

> he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

> he was aware......>>>

>

> Exactly.

>

>

> This is kinda like trying to order one pizza at a big party, no-one wants the

> same toppings. In other words, I don't think we are going to come to an

> accord on this topic.

someone idiot always wants to order pineapple...*smile*

> If there is fate, maybe it is best we leave it alone. Bc if it *does* exist,

> then there's probably a reason. but then again, if fate really does exist,

> then we can't change it anyway, now can we?

sometimes there is a yearning in our heart....a sense that can be

frightening.....if we ignore it.....and we think that fate is best left

alone....then aren't we in a way, changing our destiny by not acting

upon this calling....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:16:39 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Postmodern

In-Reply-To: <30C361C7@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

>

> >Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

> >to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

>

> >Ted P.

>

> By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

>

> WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

> antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

> to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

> a "spawn" of the movement.

>

> So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

> and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

> and others.

>

> By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

> names.

>

> ..Critter

>

I think there's something to the modernist leaning of JK-- and time

period alone does not a postmodern make. I don't even get a real sense

of Kerouac's characters being especially "anti-hero;" they often seem

very traditional in their lonely wanderings: Poe, Whitman, Byron,

Shelley, Milton, Homer all have similar "heroes." And his style draws

right from modernists, Joyce especially (in a sense...). I think that,

given the group JK was surrounded by, this makes his writing all the more

interesting.

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:38:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Burroughs & computers

I came upon an ad for a new computer game being sold at JR Records:

"The Dark Eye: Role playing adventure game based on 3 Edgar Allan Poe

stories narrated by William S. Burroughs. A haunting nightmare world of

murder & malevolence. For Windows & Macintosh. $39.95." A nice xmas

present for Burroughsians.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:45:33 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: invader or ugly spirit

When Burroughs spoke about the William Tell incident, he described it

more as possession by an "ugly spirit." The "invader" in this case is

more like a demon than a muse.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:00:27 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95120509465945@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> When Burroughs spoke about the William Tell incident, he described it

> more as possession by an "ugly spirit." The "invader" in this case is

> more like a demon than a muse.

>

One person's demon is another's muse...

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:29:14 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

Yes I have read Burroughs speaking in such a manner about invaders or

spirits or dark forces. Much of his writing is describing these things.

Concerning the day of the murder he talked about feeling these things in

the hours before the murder. He definitely believes in sprites and spirits

and such things. he has "painted" numerous pictures by shooting paint cans

with a shotgun and letting the paint spatter on the canvas. In discussing

these painting and the painting style he has said that the method allow the

spirits of the paint to be made manifest, or something to that effect.

I would think that after all these years he could come up with a better

excusefor killing his wife than "The Devil made me do it".

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:10:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Beats/Postmodernism

In response to the discussion on Postmodernism:

I agree with Peter's notion that calling any post WWII writing "postmodern"

is ludicrous, as I cannot imagine anyone applying this term to Danielle Steele

for example. As far as the attempts to define it go, I am mildly disturbed by

the simplistic and reductionist definitions that have been given. I can't

remember who gave us the "3 qualities" definition, but those terms would

probably be better applied to "Post Structuralism" rather than "Postmodernism"

In my view, the Beats would not really be classified as either postmodern or

poststructuralist, due to their reliance on an objective reality. The

postmodern narrative is reliant on a completely subjective text--something

I just don't see in Beat Literature. As an example of writers that I would

call pstmodern, check out John Barth, Robert Coover, Vladamir Nabokov, and a

host of others. The list of names that Critter dropped would be a good place o

to start to get a handle on some of the theoretical models that shape the

poststructuaralist movement. Be wary however, of any attempt to define these

terms with absolutes: Derrida's "Structure, Sign, and Play in the Discourse

of the Human Sciences," (1966) is the essay/lecture that "started" the

American Post Structuralist movement, and it presents the "Deconstructionist" m

model with which we are all familliar. This model, however, is widely

different than the adaptations made to it by Roland Barthes, and it was

further changed by the Yale "Gang of Four," who can be credited with

popularizing post-structuralism in America. Simmilarly, the ideas developed by

Foucault, a follower of Nietzschian philosophy, further confuses the

possibility of a strict definition of these terms. Add to these writers the

works of Kristeva, De Man, Said, and the entire New Historical movement, and

we can begin to understand exactly why defining these terms in absolutes

becomes an impossible task.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:37:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <628FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

I think I would call that strength.

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:49:22 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!

In-Reply-To: <688FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

Rita

What do you believe goes through ones mind when we are in our mothers

womb? Remember, that there is a certain month during the pregnancy that

one does begin hearing. But what is it that the fetus hears?? Muffled

sounds. So, that is another reason why I believe that we are born as a

blank slate.

I also believe that we have no scientific proof of chance. BUT, my

theory is that in SOME situations there is chance and in others there is

not.

As for the example of the mentally disturbed people who hurt and kill

people. Do we know that it was chance that just happened to make them a

lunatic at that very point in time or is it that they were aware of what

was happening to themselves. That is what many of our court systems are

trying to prove. For instance, was it just chance that Jeffrey Dahmer

had some chemical reaction in his brain which he could not control that

forced him to kill several people OR was it that he was fully aware of

what was going on. OR maybe it was neither of these but something that

was brought out of his subconscious when he saw a certain person taht

made him do it. We will never know.

Therefore CHANCE is just MY THEORY

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:56:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

In-Reply-To: <6C8FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

LUTHER

Well what I am saying is that this is my own personal theory of Chance.

I am not looking at statistics.

We can probably predict weather from patterns that we have seen over the

past how many million years the Earth has been here. Through temperature

change different atmospheric conditions and so forth we can predict the

weather. I really don't believe that that is chance BUT it may be. That

last statement is what I have learned.

As for writing poetry and other sorts of literary and artistic mediums I

believe that we can't predict what isgoing to come out on the paper BUT I

do believe that somewhere in our subconscious ideas, experiences and

memories are coming forth. We just aren't aware that it is happening.

BUT that is MY theory. You don't have to believe this and I am not

trying to persuade anyone to believe it.

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:42:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: You can't win

Greetings,

This is my first posting to this list. My name is William Miller. I am

interested in the writings of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, as well as

other beats, but my primary interest is with William Seward Burroughs II.

I read _Literary Outlaw_ about a year ago, and I still am reading books that

I was "introduced" to for the first time there, both books by Burroughs

himself and books written by others. I would like to know if any of you know

this: where, if anywhere, paper or computer version, could I find a copy of

Jack Black's _You Can't Win_, the book which formed such an impression on WSB

in his youth?

If you have an answer on the whereabouts of _You Can't Win_, please let me

know via e-mail or a general posting.

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

With respect,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:01:31 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win

>Greetings,

>

>This is my first posting to this list. My name is William Miller. I am

>interested in the writings of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, as well as

>other beats, but my primary interest is with William Seward Burroughs II.

>

>I read _Literary Outlaw_ about a year ago, and I still am reading books that

>I was "introduced" to for the first time there, both books by Burroughs

>himself and books written by others. I would like to know if any of you know

>this: where, if anywhere, paper or computer version, could I find a copy of

>Jack Black's _You Can't Win_, the book which formed such an impression on WSB

>in his youth?

>

>If you have an answer on the whereabouts of _You Can't Win_, please let me

>know via e-mail or a general posting.

>

>I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

>writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

>

>With respect,

>

>

>William Miller

You Can't Win was released a few years ago with an introduction by

Burroughs. Sorry I don't remember the publisher. So it should be

available somewhere. And since it is so old a public domain e-text should

not violate any copyright laws. Whether or not it is available as an

e-text I don't know.

And for some reason discussion of the actual fiction of beat writers is

scarce around here. I don't know why.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:01:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Sorry, but we tend to discuss more important things, like the names of the Beat

Writers pets. hehe

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:13:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rarely are the actual texts mentioned - we prefer to spend our time here

discussing more important things like who's Mom looks more like

Kerouac's cat.

The actual things they wrote don't really matter so much around here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:16:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!! (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

I also believe that we have no scientific proof of chance. BUT, my

theory is that in SOME situations there is chance and in others there is

not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as to not flame anyone, I'll blame this on my casual reading of the

postings this past week - I can't seem to recall what this discussion

of chance has to do with the Beat Generation. How did we get onto

this thread?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:24:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: New book.

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:22:08 -0500 from <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Can you tell us who's publishing the Amburn biography?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:30:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: digest

Several people have asked recently if it is possible to get Beat-l in

digest form. It is. To receive Beat-l as a digest, send the message

set beat-l digest to Listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Do NOT send the message

to the list!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:35:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Satori in Paris

I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:52:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac on chance/destiny

Depending on one's bent, I either chanced upon or else subconciously

remembered reading years ago and therefore have been groping all week in the

most roundabout way toward this passage in Kerouac's _book of dreams_ (p 8):

...alone in eternity - to which I now go, on white horse, not knowing what's

going to happen, predestined or not, if predestined why bother, if not why

try, not if try why, but try if why not, or not why -- At the present time I

have nothing to say and refuse to go on without further knowledge.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:56:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Computers

>I came upon an ad for a new computer game being sold at JR >Records: "The

Dark Eye: Role playing adventure game based on >3 Edgar Allan Poe stories

narrated by William S. Burroughs. A >haunting nightmare world of murder &

malevolence. For >Windows & Macintosh. $39.95." A nice xmas present for

>Burroughsians.

I guess that answers the question someone raised recently about whether or

not Burroughs is into computers.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:25:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: New Book-- publisher

St. Martins Press is the publisher of "The Beat OF Life" that should be out

for the Fall of 96. In Oct this year Ellis Amburn came out with the book

"Buddy Holly". He has done "The Pearl" the biography of Janis Joplin, "The

Dark Star" the biography of Roy Orbison and others. At the Kerouac fest in

Oct. I attended a reading of Sebastion Sampasas poetry and letters at the

University of Lowell. Does anyone know if this was taped or if any of his

work has been published? As his closest friend he was a great influence on

Jack and was a GREAT writer himself. Please let us know if anyone finds out

anything.

Philzi Lowell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

At 06:35 PM 12/5/95 -0500, you wrote:

>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

>

>

Jack forgot. But he remembered having one.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:40:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: New Book re publisher

St. Martins Press is the publisher of "The Beat of Life" that should be

out for the

fall of 96. In October this year Ellis Amburn came out with the book "Buddy

Holly".

He has done "The Pearl" the biography of Janis Joplin, "The Dark Star" the

biography of

Roy Orbison and others. At the Kerouac fest in October I attended a reading of

Sebastian Sampas' poetry and letters at the University of Lowell. Does

anyone know if

this was taped or if any of his work has been published? As his closest

friend he was a great influence on Jack and was a GREAT writer himself.

Please let us know if anyone

finds out anything. Philzi-Lowell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:20:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

On 12/5/95 7:54PM EST, JHulvey@AOL.COM wrote:

>Depending on one's bent, I either chanced upon or else subconciously

remembered reading years ago and therefore have been groping all week in the

most roundabout way toward this passage in Kerouac's _book of dreams_ (p 8):

...alone in eternity - to which I now go, on white horse, not knowing what's

going to happen, predestined or not, if predestined why bother, if not why

try, not if try why, but try if why not, or not why -- At the present time I

have nothing to say and refuse to go on without further knowledge.

BEN (Undertoad2) replies and asks:

I have only been into Kerouac/Beat writers less than 2 years and have not yet

read "Book of Dreams".

But when I read the above quote, I started thinking about the "white horse"

reference.......

Since JK was a devout Catholic (at least during his "Lowell" years) I imagine

JK would have been familiar with the the "white horse" references in the Book

of Revelation.

I won't quote it all chapter and verse, but one reference is in Rev. 6:2

where the rider "went out to conquer." The second reference is in Rev.

19:11-16, where the rider is called faithful and true (and many scholars

think refers to Christ).

Does this suggest to others (as it seems possibly to me) that JK may have, at

least subconciously, have thought himself some sort of "Messianic figure"?

Or, since I have a limited knowledge of JK and his writings, are there other

references that may better explain his dream of being on a "white horse"? I

realize the reference (cited) in Book of Dreams doesn't seem to support

either the idea of someone "conquering", or being a "messianic figure" , butI

find the white horse reference a little hard to ignore and not to query.....

Comments please!

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:28:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Greeting William,

I cannot answer your query (sorry) but since I, also, am a fairly recent to

the whole Beat thing (Kerouac was my "door"), wanted to say hi.

I'm just curious, but are you at all related to the "William Miller" who

started the "Millerite/ Millenial Movement" back in the mid-1850s?...Its a

stretch, but worth the question.

Please note my (recent) posting on the reference to JK's "Book of Dreams"

Hope you win! (G)

Best,

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:38:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: digest?

WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Bill Gargan) writes:

>Several people have asked recently if it is possible to get Beat-l in

digest form. It is. To receive Beat-l as a digest, send the message

set beat-l digest to Listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Do NOT send the message

to the list!

Ben (Undertoad2) asks:

What exactly does "digest" mean? What does it include/exclude?

I think it would be helpful to avoid all the postings (including this one!)

that do not directly relate to the topic of the beats?

Thanks!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:27:33 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd) (fwd)

In response to these questions---Yes! I couldn't agree more. I would much

prefer to see this list devoted to an axtual textual discussion of

literature, and less to the fan club/trade 'zine/pet discussions that it

has become! Now...to avoid being flamed for proposing theory without

praxis: I am proposing a topic of discussion that actually relates to the

literature...

One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference. Consider, for

example, Gary Snyder's poetry which is clearly political, but in such a

markedly different way than Robert Lowel's. Both of them, of course, were

affected by the political upheavals during their lifetime, but their reactions

in terms of their art are so different. ("Earth House Hold vs. "For the Union

Dead" for example...) I would be interested in hearing some responses to this,

particularly by someone who knows a bit more about the context of the "poetry

wars" ongoing during this period...Any takers?

Chris Davis

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rarely are the actual texts mentioned - we prefer to spend our time here

discussing more important things like who's Mom looks more like

Kerouac's cat.

The actual things they wrote don't really matter so much around here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:11:52 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951205.204639.EST.CSD95001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Chris Davis wrote:

> One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

> revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

> I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

> poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference.

What the... I'll chime in. "I saw the best minds of my generation,

destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked..." I think the

beats-- and maybe the "beat poets" most specifically, were extremely

referential to their culture-- is there anything not cultural in their work?

I recognize you might mean something specific by, well, the word

"specific"-- are you thinking about how they incorporate disperate

cutlures into their work-- western, eastern thinking, for instance? But

still, weren't all the combinations meant as response to the nasty days

of the 1950s? (I'm so looking forward to returning to those days if the

GOP wins the pres. election, esp. Gramm.)

Perhaps I'm not sticking to the texts enough... but if there isn't

cultural reference, what are they revolting against? Even the literary

forms are cultural icons-- Eliot, Pound, etc. And, I think for Ginsberg

at least, his revolutionary forms are pretty easily found-- perhaps they

remain "revolutionary," but not original-- chanting, to an extent, but,

as he comes close to admitting by action, Blake definitely. Now there is

a poet who is revolutionary both with and without cultural reference...

able to include all at the same time.

The beats at their best-- I think in WSB's works-- are both culturally

referential and something else, something new, as well...

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:22:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:42:32 -0500 from <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

The recent edition of You Can't Win: The Autobiography of Jack Black,

with foreword by Wm. S. Burroughs, was published in 1988 by Amok

Press (P.O. Box 51, Cooper Station, New York NY 10276). Whether it's

still in print, I don't know.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:37:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Postmodern Poetry

People interested in postmodern poetry should not miss

"Postmodern American Poetry," a Norton Anthology edited by Paul

Hoover. All the Beats are included as are Black Mountain, NY

School and many others including the Language School. Charles

Olson is considered the father of postmodern poetry -- or at

least the first person to use the term, but I find his work to be

more neo-classical than postmodern. For my money, Frank O'Hara

was more the postmodernist than Olson, but strangely enough his

more postmodern poems (such as Second Avenue) are not included in

the anthology. I wrote an article last year for a friend's zine

entitled, "Who Drove the Post Through Modern Poetry," that I still

think I have it on disk if anyone is interested I could send it via

E-Mail. I'm of mixed opinion as to the Beats' postmodernity --

see them more as neo-romantic. but it's all labels anyway and

what are labels in the Postmodern World. Speaking of the above schools, the

Smithsonian is sponsoring an eight week course entitled "Rebel Poets of the

1950s." We are reading "On The Road" for the first class -- it's

been years since I read it and it should be great fun. If there

are any other Washingtonians out there other than Howard and

myself hope you can make it.

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:30:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: White horses

>Does this suggest to others (as it seems possibly to me) that >JK may have,

at least subconciously, have thought himself >some sort of "Messianic

figure"? Or, since I have a limited >knowledge of JK and his writings, are

there other

>references that may better explain his dream of being on a >"white horse"?

For one, there is a zen koan about meditation, in which the student is

advised to try not to think about a white horse.

Western mythology is replete with "white horse" images; it's possible that

the white horse in "Revelations" is borrowed from earlier traditions. Kerouac

could have "borrowed" the image from any of anumber of sources, or it could

have been used/dreamed purely by "chance" - that is, he may have written it

down without being conscious of any particular source.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:34:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

Horses in dreams are symbols of death. White horses especially according to

some.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:17:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

I know that I am getting off the subject of the Beats a little to much for

some people to be comfortable bu, Rita, you are being a little to Freudian.

Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) believed that

there are no universal symbols in dreams, symbols in dreams are unique to the

individual.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:50:06 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: kerouac, christlike

In-Reply-To: <951205233405_126274440@emout05.mail.aol.com>

apocalypse now? Revelation is damn interesting reading...

On Tue, 05 Dec 1995 23:34:06 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Horses in dreams are symbols of death. White horses especially according to

>some.

>

>Rita

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Define GenX Writing???

>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>than the break away from society connection?

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

Lemmie ask a serious question:

Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:14:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouac always stick to the topic?

>>I know that I am getting off the subject of the Beats a little to much for

some people to be comfortable bu, Rita, you are being a little to Freudian.

Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) believed that

there are no universal symbols in dreams, symbols in dreams are unique to the

individual.>>

Oh, Eric! You silly goose. It's kinda like this, now, I'm probably never

going to seriously think about, guh, the Loch Ness monster, but I still know

the legend. So why not take this legend that I know and throw it in to some

of my writing knowing that someone will understand that I'm making a

statement, on say, that guy in the 1950's who mysteriously blew up in the

Lochness Lake while trying to beat the world motorboat speed record? See, I

know that Someone out there will get the reference, and everyone else will

most likely glaze over it like a donut.

mmmmmm....donut. And, I for one, don't mind getting off the topic a wee bit

if it came from the Beats. It all flows together, and maybe somewhere along

the lines we will stumble over something Really Significant (in regard to the

Beats)in the midst of talking about something else and being yelled at by

some people to stick to the exact writings of the authors. I think we need

to acknowledge the thoughts and queries that they themselves might have had

in the process of writing or revising or whatevering, and give those thoughts

consideration. I agree, if I just sent out a post talking about donuts or

art and mentioned nothing about them, then that's silly, but I don't think

there is anything wrong with tangents- Oh did you hear the one about how

three strings went into a bar...?

I love you too, Eric, and all of you,

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:29:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Regarding Baraka's attitude toward his old Beat self. It is not odd for an

artist (or non-artist) wanting to move drastically to renounce all that

he/she was and what preceded him/her. Jettison all excess cargo, so to say.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:31:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Being Mindful

Hello everyone,

On this subject as to what should be the content of messages posted here...I

agree that sometimes we can really digress (the most popular example being

the discussion around the name of Jack's cat), but I'm apprehensive about

instituting some rule that we must stick stricly to a discussion of the texts

of Beat writers. Literature, like all art, touches us all individually,

deeply on more than a cerebral level. It speaks to us on an emotional &

spiritual level as well. In talking about the works of the Beat writers, it

would be almost impossible to not talk about how these writings have shaped

and influenced our own ideals, and that discussion can inevitabley take a

philosophical bent.If I wanted a purely academic discussion, I would turn to

scholarly literary journals.

I've noticed that as it is, when we do discuss "serious" topics it is

generally from the objective, removed position of a scholar, quoting and

referencing other people, and not speaking whatever our real truth is. Okay,

some of these discussions seem to take on a life of their own and get kind of

dull, but if we ask each other to dictate what we're allowed to express, if

we censor our own ability to speak our truth, what kind of homage are we

paying to our Beat writers?

Truly, Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:43:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Rice <PAULR@COASTAL.EDU>

Organization: Coastal Carolina University

Subject: Re: White horses

cf. the recurrent white horse image in _Natural Born Killers.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:25:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: You can't win

You Can't Win, by Jack Black, was reprinted in 1988 by Amok Press with a

great foreward by W. S. Burroughs. It is a rematkable and vivid book, a must

for major Burroughs fans or anyone into the hurly-burley of the hobo-con

man-road culture of the 19teens and twenties.

Good luck finding it. I snapped it up in a used bookstore in Boston. It is

out-of-print. It was originally published in 1928 by McMillian. May the

johnson family be with you...

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:05:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!! (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <C5CDC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

We got onto chance because Jack used chance in his writings.

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:44:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it was that he didn't like living so far away from his mother so

he went back to the States very quickly.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:42:07 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

In-Reply-To: <951205182912_125947814@mail06.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Liz Prato wrote:

> I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

> Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

>

That there wasn't one.

Best,

Steve

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:59:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: X marks the spot

Dear Critter,

well, can you first define GenerationX?

I think that there are definatley some writers that fall into the GEn X

catergory, no matter how you look at it, (unless, of course you don't look at

it at all). The first mostest obvious being Coupland, Douglas. Author of

"generation x" "microserfs" "shampoo planet" and "life after god"

The next, someone else said before, was Quentin Tarrantino. you gotta admit,

even if his works aren't about Generation X, they certainly do grab that

market's ratings. (really, if you fall into this mysterious category, HOW

MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE pulp fiction? true romance? killing zoe <ok, maybe

not that one a lot>? were you really intrigued by destiny turns on the

radio? did you see resivoior dogs?)

Mebbe after that I'd say Eric bogosian, for a mix of the previous two people,

all his age, age-grabbing, and age of characters. He also makes a statement

on american life today, and I think that tends to touch younger audiences *IN

GENERAL* more than the over 65 crowd. (if you find yerself offended by this

bc you are over 65, then you should actually be honored that you're still so

hip...) Of course, playwrites hardly ever get enough recognition these

days.... (and yes, i did read his version of Notes From The Underground.

Good stuff.)

Then howabaout the wonderful Ani DiFranco? I know, she's a musician, but her

lyrics have p-o-w-e-r. On that track, judging by lyrics and not musical

abilities, Tori Amos. (Although I do love her music too....)

My friend nigel, but he's not famous so he doesn't count, I guess.

I'm blanking on a lot of really important people, I know, its late, forgive

me. but i wouldn't want to have to be responsible for leaving soemone out

anyway....

Ok, any connection to the Beats?

A sense of dissatisfaction with the mainstream culture, yes, but how about

that these poeple, or at least some of them, are willing to take

controversial issues and write about them, push them, sometimes get graphic

with you.

Unlike many other authors, these guys say it loud. And they will be morbid,

they will be depressing, they will not be objective. They are opinionated.

They don't (usually) slip into the whole "my writing is all metaphorical"

mode and the Beats didn't that much either. It is about honesty through

writing, and an honesty of soul.

But...guh...I'm exhausted and just got denied billing credit from Amerika

Online.

>>>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>than the break away from society connection?

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

Lemmie ask a serious question:

Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???>>>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:51:32 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: genX in Chicago, under the El

In-Reply-To: <30C5317D@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

yes, but only in general and only according to the broad scope of their very

heterogeneous vision...a synthesis cannot be composed but rather a broad

definition of the particular characteristics

On Wed, 06 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>>than the break away from society connection?

>

>I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

>a slew

>of them that fit the bill, maybe..

>

>Lemmie ask a serious question:

>

>Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???

>

> ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

where they born. However, one of the characteristics attributed to them was a

dissatisfaction with mainstream society. Obviously, this can not be true of all

"gen. x'ers" or else it would be a giant paradox. If everyone were to be

with mainstream society, and in their generation, mainstream society was that

everyone was dissatisfied with mainstream society, then that would force

everyone into the real mainstream society of normalcy and picket-fences and

Dad as a provider and Mom as a house wife. But, they were dissatisfied with

mainstream society (granted, this is not mainstream society, and from what I

hear, it never was, TV just made it that way, but I wasn't around so I really

don't know) but it is the ideals of mainstream society. So, The whole

generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

just had never thought about it before.

Love Always,

eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuff...

>Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) >believed

that there are no universal symbols in dreams,

>symbols in dreams are unique to the

>individual.

You and Rita are both right and wrong. Although Jungians do believe as you

say, they also use what they call "amplification" which is to look at the

uses of the particular symbol - in myth mostly, but also in fairy tales and

yes, literature. The final word , however, rests with the dreamer.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Dreams Question (horse)

Does anyone know if there's been a book (besides _Book of Dreams_) or article

discussing Jack's dreams - either the dreams themselves, or how they played

into his writing?

Julie

PS - Brief thoughts on the white horse: quest (as in knight) purity strength

sacrifice (as white was often the color of sacrificed animals - also

sacrifice in the sense of making sacred). St. George. horse as vehicle or

body

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:25:26 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Dreams Question

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:27 -0500,

Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM> wrote:

>Does anyone know if there's been a book (besides _Book of Dreams_) or article

>discussing Jack's dreams - either the dreams themselves, or how they played

>into his writing?

>

"Book of Dreams" is briefly discussed in Dennis McNally's "Desolate Angel",

pp. 292-3

Regards,

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:21:29 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: You can't win

I found this edition in a used book store. I think that's the best bet. It's

worth reading. Compare the influence of *You Can't Win* on Burroughs to the

influence of Jack London's *The Road* on Kerouac. It's obvious that each man

picked up on what suited him best.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:37:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern Poetry

>I wrote an article last year for a friend's zine

>entitled, "Who Drove the Post Through Modern Poetry," that I still

>think I have it on disk if anyone is interested I could send it via

>E-Mail.

>

>Perry Lindstrom

I would love to acquire a copy of this! I run a coffeehouse on the

net and the little coffeetable magazine I put out would love to have

an article such as this for the next issue! (everything electronic mind

you.) [http://metro.turnpike.net/C/Critter/index.html]

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:35:20 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Define GenX Writing???

At the Boulder beat gathering in 1982 and at the NYU beatfest in '94 Allen

Ginsberg talked about a Found Generation. He told me that it was a term

Kerouac had used in talking about a forthcoming generation. Anyone have any

ideas about what a Found Generation might be like?

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:31:56 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

where they born.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the common conception of Gen X and your complaints

about it are valid. That's why I sent out Doug Coupland's

definition of Generation X a few weeks back. It took into

consideration attitude and beliefs - I guess that is the

way to view what separates the Beats from all the other

Bohemians throughout time.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:39:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Define GenX Writing??? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Define GenX Writing???

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be interested in seeing that list (if your use of the past tense does

not mean you no lnger have it).

I'd have sent this privately (ha ha) but I don't know what the hell

kind of address you have Critter.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:57:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Is anything really: Re: Postmodern (fwd)

>You hit the nail on the head (it's late - please excuse bad cliches)

>when you say "sometimes", but how does this automatically make

>any post 1945 writing PostModern. The notion of PostModernity

>and PostModern criticism and art goes much deeper than merely

>the time when a piece was written. Please don't degrade my

>humble profession any more than it already is.

Well, let me come clean first off: I've only been reading into

this postmodernity for a little under a year, and I must say it's

not a concept you can easily pick up on your own w/o discussing

it w/ those that have dabbling in it for a longer time. I'm still cutting

through Madan Sarup's essays on post-structuralism and

postmodernism, which is not what I'd call a light read.

>From what concepts I've grasped thus far, postmodernism was

supposed to be a sort of supra anti-literature movement. Personally,

what little I know of the Beats, I don't think they meet the mark. I've

always enjoyed what McClure attempted with the language, and

thought that was CLOSE to pomo, with Corso in a close second.

As far as literature in the non-poetic sense, Ginsberg did a fairly

good job, and the film version of his book was also a CLOSE

to what I see as postmodern.

Unfortunately all of this is only CLOSE (IMHO) to what I perceive

as being postmodern. When I look at a master of modern language

I think of cummings and his ability to twist language into something

more representative than the peice itself. When I think of the power

behind words, I think of Eliot, himself being a modernist? As for

modern writers and their postmodern appeal, I think it's all crap.

I'm not saying that this man or that is good or bad, I just believe

that postmodernism is a fancy these days, and not actually a

practice.

As a matter of fact, I am working now on a mailing list that will

focus on this topic, trying to find the inspiration or AN inspiration

for the current or the NEXT movement in literature (writing in

general that is). If anyone might be interested, feel free to mail

me personally and I'll keep your name on the list.

..Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:12:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern

>I think there's something to the modernist leaning of JK-- and time

>period alone does not a postmodern make. I don't even get a real sense

>of Kerouac's characters being especially "anti-hero;" they often seem

>very traditional in their lonely wanderings: Poe, Whitman, Byron,

>Shelley, Milton, Homer all have similar "heroes." And his style draws

>right from modernists, Joyce especially (in a sense...). I think that,

>given the group JK was surrounded by, this makes his writing all the more

>interesting.

>

>Yrs. &c.

>Steven Cahn

I agree with this. Everything that has been attempting to be "postmodern"

seems to be more "modern" IMO. I think the best definition of postmodern

in language and literature is the art that attempts to transcend set

boundaries.

Not that this is any ground-breaking discovery here, but the hero is

one set convention that writers have been working with for centuries.

As for the more up-to-date postmodernist, I'd look for someone that

sought to destruct and destroy more convention than a small handful.

My theories, mind you..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:47:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>Dear Critter,

>well, can you first define GenerationX?

Those names that you dropped would fit into.. err, how exactly can

I say this? I'm pinned for a proper thought. Tarantino is a magnificent

writer. Anyone who knows Hollywood'll tell you he's influenced a

slew of scripts coming in now. Not only his four peices that he wrote

(or should I say three, excluding Stone's NBK), but others that you

mentioned along this same genre: Killing Zoe and just about any film

with Eric Stoltz, along with SFW and the other movie with a .45 in the

title.

So bring Douglas Coupland into the pot and what does he have in

common with RD or TR? Nothing at all. Tarantino is interested in

the lower-middle class succeeding in life by breaking social law.

As for Coupland, his character's motive isn't about success or

even about breaking the law. They simply.. what? play with their

dogs and drink beer? It's more of a character emotional based

novel than a media-propagation, such as Tarantino's work.

>I think that there are definatley some writers that fall into the GEn X

>catergory, no matter how you look at it, (unless, of course you don't look

at

>it at all).

Regardless of these writer's having anything to do with each other,

what do they have to do with us? The closest films to modern life

those films like Hackers and Strange Days, both (or at least Strange

Days) are very close to Tarantino's work, more media hype than

factuality. If.. lemmie stress that, IF I'd accept any movie as being even

remotely close to GenX it'd be St. Elmo's Fire or The Breakfast Club,

then again those are just movies much like both Tarantino's films and

Couplands novels, they just fit in between the two by depicting GenX

in a fair light outside of what the media would like to see while dealing

with them on a more personal level.

ANYHOW, that's not the point. So Generation X has people that dress

funky and dance on drugs with wild hair and pierced everything. Who

in the hell cares???? That's been going on for centuries! Hell, where is

the Queer literary movement? There isn't one, even though their radical

lifestyles should warrent such a movement.

It comes down to this: A literary movement, or a communicative movement

depends not on the dress, hair, or pierced body parts of a culture but

on the mindframe of the day. When looking at GenX we'd expect to see

a literary movement that is even beyond postmodern, beyond the hype

of symbolism and digging deeper into the roots of our individuality.

Do we have this? Is there out there on the lawn with Coupland and his

dog or stuffed in a little glowing suitcase? My answer: No. It might exist

in some examples. Tori Amos is a beautiful folk singer (Personally I

like Alanis Morisette much better, but they both are very talented), still

she is not GenX because she's singing the spirited folk music that has

been around for a while, before GenX at any rate.

When discussing a communicative movement, look at Dadaist literature.

If the Beat movement was actually a movement and not just an extension

of Whitman, then compare the the two (Dada and Beat) and show me

where the mark was made deepest in the literary aspect of things, not

necessarily the popularity of the movements. If we're going to affect

something

in our generation it needs to be a clear thought from our own sense of

ideals,

not simply another pretty story with rave music and the Internet. That is

the enviroment we live in, but not the product of that environment.

>I'm blanking on a lot of really important people, I know, its late, forgive

>me. but i wouldn't want to have to be responsible for leaving soemone out

>anyway....

>

>They don't (usually) slip into the whole "my writing is all metaphorical"

>mode and the Beats didn't that much either. It is about honesty through

>writing, and an honesty of soul.

One last note and my rant is over: Metaphor and symbolism, IMO, is going

to be the two deaths in the next literary movement. To get through the

media hype and into the crux of Information, we need to surpass these

hidden messages and talk to one another in a dense, information rich

manner than holds one true statement and gives the audience the

satisfaction of questioning all the other questions brought up by the

peice.

To take language out of the "I give you a message" format and into the

more interactive scene, the story must be left slightly unresolved so that

the audience is both enthralled to continue with any more work from the

artists and so that the audience feels they are imporant to the piece. As

a poem has many different meanings, the primary meaning should be

quite clear, for to communicate a message the message HAS to be

communicated, but all facets of the piece needent be answered.

This all relates to our current mindframe of mass information, but takes

it one step beyond by allowing the audience to be a part of the message

instead of feeding them the 6 o'clock news and telling them everything

they've seen is true.

In summary, I don't think that GenX has any literary value and looking for

GenX artists is looking for artists of a certain age, or for artists who

wrote

a book like a book called GenX, or for artists that sound like Tarantino,

and I don't necessarily believe that he IS in line with the GenX movement

as a whole, most people in GenX just think he's cool.

Nuff said.

..Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:50:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>So, The whole

>generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

>doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

>just had never thought about it before.

>

> Love Always,

> eric Simpkins

I'm not sure where this fits into all of that, but the current issue of

Details

outlined how everything underground and GenX such as R.E.M., zines,

Kurt Cobain, alternative rock, indie lables, and so on, are now the

mainstream in above ground media.

Thus anyone who is now underground is dissatisfied with their original

work. One common thought around the TRUE fans of any music these

days is that you're UNCOOL if you like bands that sell a certain amount

of records. For example, I just recently got into Moby. Anyone who

listens to rave thinks Moby sucks BECASE he's sold a good amount

of records. REM still holds well, you're just uncool if you like any

music before.. say, 91.

hmmm.. Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:01:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Define GenX Writing??? (fwd)

>I'd be interested in seeing that list (if your use of the past tense does

>not mean you no lnger have it).

I picked it up from the City Lights homepage.. if you need me to

hunt that down for you I can, but it is up for everyone to see if you

have Web access.

>I'd have sent this privately (ha ha) but I don't know what the hell

>kind of address you have Critter.

Hehe.. the God of AT&T have done it again!..

I'm starting to post it now and then with my sig.

...Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:03:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

Clerks comes damn close to what the media portrays us to be. Losers in low

paying jobs.

Love ALways,

eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:05:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: genX in Chicago, under the El

>yes, but only in general and only according to the broad scope of their

very

>heterogeneous vision...a synthesis cannot be composed but rather a broad

>definition of the particular characteristics

Well..................................... hmm, thinking here. I dunno if I

can agree.

If you throw a thousand monkeys in the air, those than land on their

heads will have something in common, and all the rest will be

different from those that landed on their heads BUT they're all

still monkeys...

Did that make any sense whatsoever???

In other words, individuals compose a mass. When like individuals

compose a mass, the mass will be somewhat hetero(gen[x])eous.

So if we assume the reverse, that GenX is heterogeneous, then we

can say that the individuals have something in common. These

traits will be broad, yes.. but that's the point of making a generality.

That is to say, we don't think exactly alike, but we do think along

some of the same lines. This is what I am interested in overall.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:12:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: White horses

>cf. the recurrent white horse image in _Natural Born Killers.

I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:34:38 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

Hello guys.

No one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.

But I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to us.

I don't care about so called Generation X or Tarantino, at least not in the

confines of this group.

This is the Beat l list. You have greatly deviated from the subject matter.

Start or find a Generation X list is my request.

Like I said, you don't have to heed this request. But it is a request for

some courtesy.

Anyone else who shares my view please chime in.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:35:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

Hello folks,

In a message dated 95-12-05 11:32:31 EST, Tim Gallaher writes:

+++++++++++I would think that after all these years he could come up with a

better

excusefor killing his wife than "The Devil made me do it"+++++++++++++++++

I have read that WSB considers the act an Inexcusable Act. Perhaps the old

man isn't trying to excuse it. He apparently has believed in such

supernatural "guidings", if you will, since far before the WmTell incident.

Why is there so much fuss over this one event? Perhaps there should be

another list devoted to this topic alone.... the "crimes of Burroughs,

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Huncke, et cetera......". Is such a list justified? For

my money, the Carr-Kammerer incident holds more interest than Joan's death.

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:37:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

Folks,

I was lucky enough to pick up a copy of _The Stories of Denton Welch_ at the

best used bookstore in town this week. Denton Welch apparently was a

motivator for Burroughs because each encountered a horrible turning point in

his life, and after that point began to write productively.

The "chances" that you write of are of at least two breeds: one is

coincidence, another is guidance by some motivated hand toward fate. There

are more. I'm sure that some of you are familiar with it, but here's a look

at one peculiar incident.....

Welch was detained inexplicably one day, then was paralyzed later when a auto

drove over him and his bicycle. he (Welch) found the role of the

inexplicable (call it coincidence or CHANCE if you wish) in his accident to

be key. Had there been no delay, he presumably would have escaped injury.

His life was changed forever; he was forced to leave his painting career and

began to write. But only for a horrible accident.

Neither would Burroughs have continued the pursuit of writing, had the WmTell

incident not occurred. Was the event horrible, yes, inexcusable (in my

opinion) yes, but necessary for us to get to this point (with a dozen or more

Burroughs books to read)? Sadly, yes..........................

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:42:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>Clerks comes damn close to what the media portrays us to be. Losers in low

>paying jobs.

>

> Love ALways,

> eric Simpkins

And let's not forget the newest by the same director, this time in color!

Mallrats!

...<squeak> Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:07:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Beat Texts

Hey, it's an unmoderated list, folks! If you're not discussing the TEXTS, you'

ve no one to blame but yourselves.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:13:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800 from

<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800 Timothy K. Gallaher said:

>At 06:35 PM 12/5/95 -0500, you wrote:

>>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

>>

>>

>

>Jack forgot. But he remembered having one.

Maybe it was you can't go home again!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:17:46 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: You can't win

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:28:19 -0500 from

<UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

You Can't Win is available in many libraries. Check Books In Print to see if t

he reprint edition is still available. If so, you can probably order it throug

h you local bookstore.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:23:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

Since I am only half way through my new mail from Beat L and I did not start

from the begining of this topic, i do not know if anyone has mentioned this,

but WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He could

not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

(the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:40:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>>Tori Amos is a beautiful folk singer (Personally I

like Alanis Morisette much better, but they both are very talented), still

she is not GenX because she's singing the spirited folk music that has

been around for a while, before GenX at any rate.>>

I Listed Tori for a few reasons, even though her *music* follows traditional

patterns, her lyrics do not always. I think the level of what many American

women feel that she hit in "Me And A Gun" was so intense. Or how about her

wonderings about God in "god?" I think yes, very classic issues, but issues

that are being dealt with in more and more open ways all the time, and she is

one of the poeple contributing to that. Especially women';s issues that

women are feeling more and more free to discuss. ("just because you can make

me come doesn't make you Jesus")

>>So Generation X has people that dress

funky and dance on drugs with wild hair and pierced everything. Who

in the hell cares???? That's been going on for centuries! Hell, where is

the Queer literary movement? There isn't one, even though their radical

lifestyles should warrent such a movement.>>

What?!?!?! Ummm....forgive me, but I wasn't aware that the common image of

Gen X is the raver image (could it be you imposing your lifestyle onto the

stereotypical gen x thing bc of something?) I thought it was much more that,

I thought it was more an idea that there are all these different cultural

groups but thgey're all just "slackers." What are you talking about a

"Queer literary movement?" Perhaps I am naive, but if you are talking about

*gay* writers, there are TONS of them, check your local Tower Records book

area for the "Homosexuals in Literature" section, your Barnes And Noble for

the same thing. Radical lifestyles? What? Which gender you decide to sleep

with isn't really a radical descion if you ask me, its a media issue and a

religion issue (read: political).

The reason I posed this question in the beginning was kinda an attempt to see

if we could list our own figures. That is to say, I don't think many people

who were around and hanging out with the Beats in the fifties thought that

they were any more special than anyone else in terms of being pop icons or

role models or whatever. I think it was more of a "I want to succeed at

doing this becuase I want to" and not "I want to succeed at this so I can be

a spokesmodel for an entire generation.''

And really, did all of their writing deal with genration issues? No. Why

should any other generation's then? I think that mebbe 15 years or so down

the line, it will be more apparent who the big ones of this generation were.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:01:18 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference. Consider, for

example, Gary Snyder's poetry which is clearly political, but in such a

markedly different way than Robert Lowel's. Both of them, of course, were

affected by the political upheavals during their lifetime, but their reactions

in terms of their art are so different. ("Earth House Hold vs. "For the Union

Dead" for example...) I would be interested in hearing some responses to this,

particularly by someone who knows a bit more about the context of the "poetry

wars" ongoing during this period...Any takers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recently read an interesting piece written by Diana Trilling (wife of

Lionel - teacher at Columbia of Ginsberg) in which a reading of Corso

and Ginsberg is described. She and several other Columbia wives went to

a reading at Columbia in the early sixties. She had had problems with

Ginsberg years before when he kept turning to Lionel every time he was

arrested or thrown out of Clumbia but went to see him read anyway.

Anyway, after actually seeing him and some other Beats read, she went home

where Lionel and several of the "academic" poets were gathered, among them

Auden. They greeted her, in proper manner - stand when a woman enters

the room etc. - and after she mentioned that she saw some shred of "good"

in the reading was told by Auden that he was ashamed of her.

The whole scene, the men being "polite" to Mrs. Trilling, the fact that

they were contemptous of anyone who was moved by Ginsberg etc is

indicative of the juxtaposition between the teo poetic worlds that

existed and that the Beats were trying to break down. The Poertry War

mentioned in the post. The Beats' greatest achievement is not that

they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but

that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)

opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by

Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses

and such.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:54:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: The Found Generation

Dan Barth asked about "the Found generation..." Is there one? And if so, who

are they?

This probably sounds like old stuff for most of you, but I'm new at this. If

"postmodernism" or Beat writing includes the themes/issues of alienation and

disintegration, then I see many of the post-postmodernist writers as moving

toward finding a place for themselves and their characters, and re-integrating.

I'm going to have to limit my examples of this to contemporary Native American

fiction, though, as that is mostly what I read :-) In novels by Momaday, Silko,

and Erdrich (as well as many others, my new favorite being Sherman Alexie), we

see characters who have traditionally felt alienated or displaced seeking

a place for themselves, and ending up back where they began (geographically, at

least, by going home to the Rez or traditional homelands). But they have to

leave first to find themselves.

Many of these characters follow the Beat ethos (if there is such a thing) of

"going on the road," because they believe in that (now that I think of it, it

may be more Emersonian than Beat, but they're connected, right?). They believe

that identity cannot be found at home. But it always takes coming home again to

really re-integrate and become whole. They do end up becoming Found, in that

sense. They found a place to belong, they found themselves.

I cannot even pretend to know what Ginsberg meant when he said that a future

generation would be a Found Generation. But in my estimation, these American

Indian writers are working toward being found, and in many cases have

succeeded. Sorry for the long babble here--maybe I'd better go *find* some

coffee!

Bonnie Howard

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:53:31 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Rice <PAULR@COASTAL.EDU>

Organization: Coastal Carolina University

Subject: Re: White horses

These things well up from inside. Archetypes. But I think the horse

was Oliver Stone's and I think he has the training to make such

connection. Also Q.T. has seen every movie in the world, so he must

have seen _The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse_, if the image was

his.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:40:34 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951206.231436.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> mentioned in the post. The Beats' greatest achievement is not that

> they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but

> that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)

> opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by

> Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses

> and such.

>

When was poetry with that average Joe? If you have sometime in mind, can

you make some direct link-- stylistically, aesthetically-- with Beat

poetry?

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:31:41 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: White horses

In-Reply-To: <30C63100@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

>

> I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

>

> Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

> training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

>

> ...Critter

>

To drop a name: I knew QT when he was at Video Archives-- and yes, he's a

bit manic, perhaps, but definitely the brains and the knowledge-- if not

from books, then from all the films the guy's seen-- he knows them ALL.

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: fellaheen

Folks,

Next is my next question. that comes next. The notion and role of the

FELLAHEEN, or fellahin, arises commonly in Burroughs' fiction. Supposedly it

was partly planted in his mind by a reading of Oswald Spengler's _Decline of

the West_ -- a book which he supposedly wanted the others, Jack, Allan, etc.

to read, but he gave them the book and apparently, from the best I can tell,

they did not.

I have not read all of Decline of the West, just parts, and I have tried to

zero in on Spengler's actual usage of the term and narrowest discussion of

it. The book is huge, in fact, the only edition that I've been able to find

is "abridged", and I dont' see that Spengler actually spent much time on 'the

fellahin'.

Has anyone else on the list tried to follow this one up?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, the fellahin.

Yours,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: The Miller name

Folks,

to answer the question of whether or not I am related to the William Miller

of the Millerites, 1850's, etc. :::

I think not.

I may be related to Henry Miller, of Brooklyn, my only vague data being that

HM's middle name was Valentine, which is the same as my legal father's first

name, and dear ol' dad is from Brooklyn too.

I'm also related to Burroughs, on his mother's side. (the Lees)

thanks to Tim Gallaher, Blaine Allan, Dan Barth, and all of you who provided

information on _You Can't Win_ by Jack Black, a text which influenced

Burroughs. I will try to get my hands on the book.

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:00:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

Comments: To: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

> Date sent: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:37:24 -0500

> Send reply to: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

> Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

William Miller wrote:

> Neither would Burroughs have continued the pursuit of writing, had the WmTell

> incident not occurred. Was the event horrible, yes, inexcusable (in my

> opinion) yes, but necessary for us to get to this point (with a dozen or more

> Burroughs books to read)? Sadly, yes.......................

* *

The incident may have changed WSB's life, but I don't think anyone

can say he wouldn't have "continued the pursuit of writing" had this

not occurred. This thing motivated him to move PHYSICALLY, and

precipitated his subsequent rootlessness, but he was already writing:

those routines for which he is hilariously famous began earlier with

Kells Elvins, his boyhood buddy. I just can't see how this incident,

except peripherally, perhaps, necessitated his writing.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:15:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: up and down and Nietzsche bound

In-Reply-To: <01HYHJ00A882HTVRDE@SONOMA.EDU>

plaid is cool and nihilism is the new drugstore religion, man...

On Wed, 06 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

>or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

>or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

>where they born. However, one of the characteristics attributed to them was a

>dissatisfaction with mainstream society. Obviously, this can not be true of all

>"gen. x'ers" or else it would be a giant paradox. If everyone were to be

>with mainstream society, and in their generation, mainstream society was that

>everyone was dissatisfied with mainstream society, then that would force

>everyone into the real mainstream society of normalcy and picket-fences and

>Dad as a provider and Mom as a house wife. But, they were dissatisfied with

>mainstream society (granted, this is not mainstream society, and from what I

>hear, it never was, TV just made it that way, but I wasn't around so I really

>don't know) but it is the ideals of mainstream society. So, The whole

>generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

>doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

>just had never thought about it before.

>

> Love Always,

> eric Simpkins

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:40:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: The Whitney

To avoid flaming - I have not been to the exhibit YET, all I am

saying is second hand!

I was told that in the Whitney exhibit - which is on Beat artists- they

are displaying a Pollock among other questonable pieces. How can they

include him in a Beat exhibit?

I realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between Pollock

and some Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of art,

but I don't think that is acceptable. They apparently stick many

artists in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.

I would think it is easy to make the connection of visual spontaneity

between Pollock and the New York school of poets (i.e. Frank O'Hara)

but can this link include the aural spontaneity of Beat poets like

Kerouac or Ginsberg? Just because _Howl_ was composed in two sittings

or OTR was written straight through does not mean there is and artistic

link in their theoretical ideas.

I believe Molly said she is an art history student - do you have anything

about the San Francisco school or the Abstract Expressionsits that may

be able to defend the curator's inclusion of these "non-Beats" in

a Beat exhibit?

Any help?

Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:17:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Postmodern? Poem

As Mr. Serling always said: "Submitted for your approval..."

Nothing God On Television

-------------------------

i found -a little god-

o n theside

o f(f) theroad,

d u s t e d I off &

s h u f f l e d T tween 2 books

[1.) dharma bums 2.) basketball diaries]

[burn?ing

bakE?ing

i left it in the SUN

singEing

sear?ing]

all day

atop the tv with

gEraLdoscreaming

aboutanotherfoun

dabort -ion

for

time

until i decided it was time for raisinettes and tea.

for

time

it looked at me with (1..2..3..) weary eyes,

thanked me for the ignorance and disappeared

(leaving behind a $2.00 voucher for Walmart)

---

and to quote someone whose name escapes me: "You decide!"

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:16:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

KEEPING THE LIST FREE FROM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE BEAT TEXTS

>>>>>>>Hello guys.

No one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.

But I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to us.

I don't care about so called Generation X or Tarantino, at least not in the

confines of this group.

This is the Beat l list. You have greatly deviated from the subject matter.

Start or find a Generation X list is my request.

Like I said, you don't have to heed this request. But it is a request for

some courtesy.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>Hey, it's an unmoderated list, folks! If you're not discussing

the TEXTS, you'

ve no one to blame but yourselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

True, true, true, both of you. But I gotta agree with Bill more on this one.

If you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more

interesting.

Maybe as an idea for not cluttering mailboxes, we can read *all* the postings

before we send off letters with more than one subject in them at once,

especially if they are relkated in any way.

I see nothing wrong with drawing parrallels between the Beats and The Nows.

WHITE HORSES

>>I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

...Critter>>>

Well, Critter, I don't think it matters that much, but yes, I do think he has

the brains to make that allusion and he did. Remmeber it was invaded by

Stone anyhow.

CRITTER AGAIN, THIS TIME JIVING WITH ME

>>>>>Well..................................... hmm, thinking here. I dunno if

I

can agree.

If you throw a thousand monkeys in the air, those than land on their

heads will have something in common, and all the rest will be

different from those that landed on their heads BUT they're all

still monkeys...

Did that make any sense whatsoever???

In other words, individuals compose a mass. When like individuals

compose a mass, the mass will be somewhat hetero(gen[x])eous.

So if we assume the reverse, that GenX is heterogeneous, then we

can say that the individuals have something in common. These

traits will be broad, yes.. but that's the point of making a generality.

That is to say, we don't think exactly alike, but we do think along

some of the same lines>>>>>

Right on. We cannot be lumped into any one category much further than human.

Heaven knows we can't even try to label people as races anymore. No-one

wants to be assigned an age. People don't think it is fair to judge on

money. Or on eductation. It'll be hard to find two Republicans that have

the same views. (or democrats or libertarians or so on, just an ex.)

The Beats dealt with a different time period, but theyw ere still human, and

weren't we talking before about renouncing ties to that generation to move on

and not be tied down to that label and style of thinking?

JOAN AND THE MOVIE VERSION

>>>>>>WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He

could

not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

(the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.>>>> (eric)

Yep, I think the movie worked bc it was so much more about the psychology of

Naked Lunch than trying to turn Burroughs' words into pictures. The way the

movie portrayed it though, I think made it seem as if he was willing to

sacrifice Joan to be the writer he became. I don't know if it was such a

fair interpretation, but it definately got across the message that that was

Burroughs' reason.

Looking at the movie with a better understanding of what transpired there, I

see how it shows Burroughs as more of a man who had to drive across the

border. He probably had to shoot his wife to became what he did become. And

that is depressing in many ways, and Burroughs lived under that guilt (mebbe

he still does....) for a long time.

Rita

(BTW-is anyone else so intigued by Burroughs lineage? not only the adding

machine but the robert e. lee thing also. i am amazed at the popular

influence this family has had)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:42:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Carr-Kammerer, etc.

Yes, William, me too. This incident is extremely interesting as it was

reported as an "honor" slaying in the contemporary press: Carr was in some

way given the "right" to have killed Kammerer because Kammerer wanted to

sleep with him (yes, Kam. was persistent, dogged Carr, and they were drunk --

but to use the word "honor" to describe a murder?) Also, here's a friend of

two of the century's most famous queers, Burroughs and Ginsberg, killing

someone based on the very notions of sexual propriety the "Beats" (and I'm

not convinced, incidentally, that the Beat generation is any less a media

creation than Gen-X; I once heard Creeley say that this so-called generation

was really only 4 guys. Their texts resemble one anothers, and they were all

friends, but Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Cassady had many differences as

well: Ginsberg and Cassady fit into so-called "hippie" culture; Kerouac and

Burroughs remained aloof, even critical of it, in K's case). In any case,

does anyone know of a good source for reading about the Carr-Kammerer

situation? _Jack's Book_ is a text that has some stuff on it, but I'd like

to find out more.

As to the sympathy shown Carr: Malcolm Little (later "X") served 6 years for

burglary around the same time as Carr served 4 for murder. Race and class

considerations obviously also play into this, but so too I think does the

homophobic "if some queer would have done that to me, I'd show him a thing or

two" bashing mentality.

I also have read somewhere that the conditions of Carr's parole led Jack to

keep him out of his books (perhaps to disguise associations Carr wasn't

supposed to have maintained with a "dangerous" group). Does anyone know

specifics about what restrictions were placed on Carr upon his parole?

On other subjects recently discussed, my proverbial two Lincolns:

- Her name was Jane Vollmer Adams Burroughs -- the woman accidentally and

stupidly killed by Bill (though I give credence to Burroughs' expiation over

this act -- it's not something he's proud of). I don't think anyone has

mentioned her name, which is in some way reflective of the attitudes toward

women generally conveyed by these writers. Can anyone honestly read OTR

these days and not be appalled by its sexism? When I've taught this book, my

students are quick to leap on this aspect.

- I wrote another long, "academic" response to the pomo vs. mo debate, then

decided to just keep it in my files unsent. If an unmoderated list is to be

successful and not waste a lot of everybody's time along the way there should

be some self-censoring. The Gen-X business is of little interest to me

personally; I find it similar to attending a tupperware party and being

harangued by an Amway salesperson -- yes, these are nice products, but what

about the leftovers I have at home decaying in my fridge? I desire a certain

product here, else I wouldn't have shown up.

- I object to the characterization made by one contributor that mentioning

authors and books is in some way disguising who we really are. When I, for

instance, brought up Olson in the thread on chance it wasn't because I was

interested in flaunting my knowledge or "name-dropping." It's because Olson

writes perceptively on this issue and was pertinent to the discussion: he

says things better than I could, and I can't discuss the issue without

reference to him. I think that some answers to the question posed lie there,

and I'm not doing it to get tenure or pats on the back. This isn't lack of

imagination, evasion, vanity, etc. -- it's because books (which we are

discussing, right?) exist in conversation with other books. Books saved me

from reliving the miserable dead lives of those I grew up with that didn't

discover what I did. And, need I repeat, they are what brings us together

here. It seems to me that when we hear "don't tell us about what you've

read, tell us about what you feel," there's a great danger of sinking into an

encounter-group dynamic, which I'd really like to avoid. That isn't to say I

desire more pure academicism, just reponsibility to others on the list who

patiently download all this stuff every day (some paying for it) and do so

because of a stated interest in the Beats. "Backchannel" posts (I really

like that word -- posts to individuals, not to the list itself) provide an

opportunity for people to work out threads which have gone beyond the stated

topic of the list.

- I rant, but do appreciate what you all have to offer, else I'd have been

long gone.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:47:56 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

>Folks,

>

>Next is my next question. that comes next. The notion and role of the

>FELLAHEEN, ...

I have never heard that Kerouac never read the book. I always heard he had

read it and it was one of the many books Burroughs turned him on to. I

never heard of Burroughs using the term fellaheen in his writings (though

I'm not so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times. An

example of fellaheen as used by kerouac would be the rural mexican citizens

he encountered in his trips to mexico.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

Comments: To: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I recollect the fellaheen tale you mention, that Burroughs was the

Spenglerian in the group (still is, from what we read) and attempted

to interest the boys in its historicity etc.

But in my mind, now, what I think of when I hear the word, has to do

more with JK's usage of it, possibly epitomized by the Mexican Girl

segment from OTR. That he was using "fellaheen" symbolically, with

all its connotations of their being "salt of the earth", or the

backbone of humanity. I think that, though that may fit (at least to

a point) the dictionary's definition of fellaheen, I'm not sure how

it contrasts or conflicts with Spengler's use of it. JK, I think,

appropriated the term for his own uses.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:55:23 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

>True, true, true, both of you. But I gotta agree with Bill more on this one.

> If you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more

>interesting.

OK. That test pattern on TV what about it? Pretty cool huh?

How long does iut take for your butter to melt? How much faster does it

melt per degree of temprature increase?

Who do you think is the best accountant?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:05:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

Comments: To: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

> > JOAN AND THE MOVIE VERSION

> >>>>>>WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He

> could

> not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

> (the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

> turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.>>>> (eric)

>

> Yep, I think the movie worked bc it was so much more about the psychology of

> Naked Lunch than trying to turn Burroughs' words into pictures. The way the

> movie portrayed it though, I think made it seem as if he was willing to

> sacrifice Joan to be the writer he became. I don't know if it was such a

> fair interpretation, but it definately got across the message that that was

> Burroughs' reason.

>

> Looking at the movie with a better understanding of what transpired there, I

> see how it shows Burroughs as more of a man who had to drive across the

> border. He probably had to shoot his wife to became what he did

become.

* *

Does anyone have anything more than that incident in the movie to

suggest that manslaughter made a writer out of WSB? I don't recall

that NAKED LUNCH (the book) made this point.

The Cronenberg thing was a MOVIE. There are a lot of other

biographical references that'll make you nod in recognition of

factual material that you won't find in the book but will see in the

movie. And if Burroughs didn't pen the screenplay, then we're taking

somebody else's word (who's probably using artistic license to

dramatize a point) and relating it as if it were the gospel truth.

Buyer beware.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 19:32:16 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Burroughs on Cronenberg's 'Naked Lunch' movie

CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU> wrote:

>Does anyone have anything more than that incident in the movie to

>suggest that manslaughter made a writer out of WSB? I don't recall

>that NAKED LUNCH (the book) made this point.

>

>The Cronenberg thing was a MOVIE. There are a lot of other

>biographical references that'll make you nod in recognition of

>factual material that you won't find in the book but will see in the

>movie. And if Burroughs didn't pen the screenplay, then we're taking

>somebody else's word (who's probably using artistic license to

>dramatize a point) and relating it as if it were the gospel truth.

>

>Buyer beware.

Burroughs writes about this:

"I was dismayed naturally, to see the scenes that David (Cronenberg) wrote

in which "Bill Lee" shoots his wife "Joan"; but on reflection, I feel that

the scenes in his script are so different from the tragic and painful

episodes in my own life from which he drew his inspiration that no

intelligent person can mistake the movie for a factual account"

- William S. Burroughs: "Introduction", p. 14, in "Everything Is

Permitted: The Making of 'Naked Lunch'", Grafton Books, 1992

Regards,

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:27:14 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Tastes Great, Less Filling

In-Reply-To: <951207080703_127323747@mail06.mail.aol.com>

yes, but does your family own a famous brewery...?

On Thu, 07 Dec 1995 08:07:03 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Folks,

>

>to answer the question of whether or not I am related to the William Miller

>of the Millerites, 1850's, etc. :::

>

>I think not.

>

>I may be related to Henry Miller, of Brooklyn, my only vague data being that

>HM's middle name was Valentine, which is the same as my legal father's first

>name, and dear ol' dad is from Brooklyn too.

>

>I'm also related to Burroughs, on his mother's side. (the Lees)

>

>thanks to Tim Gallaher, Blaine Allan, Dan Barth, and all of you who provided

>information on _You Can't Win_ by Jack Black, a text which influenced

>Burroughs. I will try to get my hands on the book.

>

>As ever,

>

>William Miller

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:42:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Anybody ever been removed from the list for no reason? Just happened to me

and I am wondering why and if it has happened to anyone else.

-Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:04:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:06 -0500 from <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Jack and Allen did read Spengler. I think Jack was more taken with it

than Ginsberg. Like everything else, however, Kerouac took what he

wanted and left the rest.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:22:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST from

<CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

On Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST CLAY VAUGHAN said:

>I recollect the fellaheen tale you mention, that Burroughs was the

>Spenglerian in the group (still is, from what we read) and attempted

>to interest the boys in its historicity etc.

>

>But in my mind, now, what I think of when I hear the word, has to do

>more with JK's usage of it, possibly epitomized by the Mexican Girl

>segment from OTR. That he was using "fellaheen" symbolically, with

>all its connotations of their being "salt of the earth", or the

>backbone of humanity. I think that, though that may fit (at least to

>a point) the dictionary's definition of fellaheen, I'm not sure how

>it contrasts or conflicts with Spengler's use of it. JK, I think,

>appropriated the term for his own uses.

Yes, he did. Spengler doesn't use the term the way Kerouac does.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:24:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Why GenX?

Someone (I forgot your name, sorry) said that he has no interest in this GenX

conversation, as it has nothing to do with The Beats. That's his feeling, but

many sources have made the connection between GenX & the Beats, the most

notable one I can think of being the Jack Kerouac School for Disembodied

poets in which Allen Ginsberg is very involved. Bill made a good point - this

is our list - and if we're dissatisfied with it, we need to take

responsibility instead of blaming it on others.

By some genetic lottery, I'm technically considered GenX (i'm 28). So is a 18

year old. To give you an idea of how silly this is: I used to sort of work

with advertising (gasp!) and one entire demographic group is the 18-49 year

olds. Like 18 year olds and 49 year olds are soooo similar.

Critter asked whether Tarentino actually had the smarts to understand the

imagery of the white horse - you know, I used to have this vision of QT too

(like all of the clever aspects of his movies were accidents?), then I saw

him on Charlie Rose. This guy is smart! He defiinately knows his stuff. He

doesn't just make movies, he lives them. He knows more about films than most

directors in Hollywood, I would guess. I don't know whether he's well read,

but films are an excellent source of cultural history of the 20th century,

especially when you look at Wells & Felini & such. But enough of that.

I was the one that brought Tarentino's name to the list. And I don't know

what he has to do with GenX. I can only explain his appeal (Above & beyond

being hip) like this: Never in my life could I stand to watch a movie with

violence in it. Then I started seeing his movies, and somehow I can watch

them (By the way, Rita, I've seen Pulp Fiction 3-4 times).. The difference

is, this violence is portrayed with reality - it's not just some Arnold S.

movie with people getting blasted everywhere and no blood, no pain. When Tim

Roth's character gets shot in R.Dogs, he is in pain and he's scared. This was

terrible to watch in one way, but it was real. I felt like QT wasn't

insulting my intelligence and was giving me the benefit of the doubt that I

could handle reality. How many artists do that at all? (ie: Happy endings).

The main reason I brought up QT was to make the point that there are several

other mediums (media?) that define GenX's expression. Popular music & film &

computer-related media are are powerful means of reaching people now,

especially GenX. I had also thought of listing Billy Corgan on this list, but

was afraid of spawning a Kurt Cobain conversation, and hasn't that been done

enough already?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:28:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>I think yes, very classic issues, but issues

>that are being dealt with in more and more open ways all the time, and she

is

>one of the poeple contributing to that. Especially women';s issues that

>women are feeling more and more free to discuss. ("just because you can

make

>me come doesn't make you Jesus")

Yes, I agree that she is WONDERFUL. I think the point where our

communication

is breaking up is trying to say what a GenXer is.. if it's restricted to

age, then

yes, she's a GenXer (I think.. hmmm..) if it's restricted to ideals, than

she's not

fitting the stereotype very well by making all that cash.

As your next section shows:

>What?!?!?! Ummm....forgive me, but I wasn't aware that the common image of

>Gen X is the raver image

-and-

>What are you talking about a

>"Queer literary movement?" Perhaps I am naive, but if you are talking

about

>*gay* writers, there are TONS of them, check your local Tower Records book

>area for the "Homosexuals in Literature" section, your Barnes And Noble for

>the same thing.

We're on a COMPLETELY different wavelength. If a gay poet writes about

flowers, does that make that poet out to be a Out With Pride poet? or just a

poet writing about flowers? The latter, I'd presume. (And when I say radical

I mean that heterosexuality is certainly the accepted bible belt philosophy

in America, not homosexuality.

Back to the issue of writers in a movement, we must first come to an

understanding

of what GenX is... Paying close attention to media and film, GenX does still

mean

the slacker stereotype, but modern youth are seen as "Digitized" or "OnLine"

ravers that care more about computers and hacking than getting good grades

in sophomore math from film's vantage. It all depends on where your focus

lies.

I'll call myself "in the wrong" for our purposes and say that I was

searching

for a GenX movement in literature. Looking beyond age, beyond "slack or

rave", looking more towards the ideals of what I know to be modern youth

and finding how this would affect such known GenX writers such as Tarantino

and Coupland (if they are indeed "true" GenX writers). In other words, can

we call a 19 yr old writing poems about butterflies a "true" GenX writer?

Same goes for the Beats. I don't think that you could call Mr. X from that

Generation a Beat writer when he too is writing ONLY about butterflies.

It takes the spirit of Beat in the writing to call yourself Beat. That is

what

I'm saying is required of GenX writers..

>Rita

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:44:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: The Found Generation

>This probably sounds like old stuff for most of you, but I'm new at this.

If

>"postmodernism" or Beat writing includes the themes/issues of alienation

and

>disintegration, then I see many of the post-postmodernist writers as moving

>toward finding a place for themselves and their characters, and

re-integrating.

See, I believe that the Beats are more Modern than Postmodern. Postmodernism

deals with communication through accepted symbology, much like news

reports horrors of blood and riots to us, we listen w/o question and accept

this information. Postmodernism also attempts to reconstruct accepted forms

and conventions but also classical ideals, straying away from building or

revisioning older works, thus the deconstructionist attitude towards

literature.

It seems that the Beats did not work towards this end, which is why we can

talk so much of Buddhism and so on. Think of cummings and his war against

conventional form. Discussing what he based his form upon would be

impossible if you're searching for something previously attempted.

>I cannot even pretend to know what Ginsberg meant when he said that a

future

>generation would be a Found Generation.

As for a Found Generation, much of GenX (as I think it's been noted here) is

based upon a slew of other Generations.. something like art from found

objects,

a generation from Found Generations. Dunno.. that's just a thought..

>Bonnie Howard

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:58:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>Hello guys.

>

>No one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.

>

>But I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to

us.

Even though I only heard one chime, I will say that this is somewhat off

topic. I don't mind discussing it, and will answer back any questions

instead

of ignoring someone, but I will add my chime to the question.

If anyone is interested, I'm working on starting a mailing list discussing

the major "radical" literary revolutions such as Dada, surrealism, pomo,

modernism, and even GenX, as well as trying to find the next literary

revolution. This is also unmoderated and will include artist sharing

examples as well as ideas and discussions.

If anyone is interested, this will not only be a good place to take this

conversation, but I am always interested in a little feedback and some

ideas before I get the mailing list underway.

...Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:33:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Kirsten asked about being removed from the list without notice. This will happ

en if, for any reason, your mail is reported as being "undeliverable." This ha

ppens for several reasons, often because someone's system fails, usually on the

weekends I notice. If the listowner did not delete you, his mailbox would fill

with repeated mail that "bounces back" from your address. No notice is sent be

cause that notice would be "undeliverable" and simply "bounce back" to the list

owners mailbox as well. If you find yourself off the list, simply resubscribe.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:18:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Why GenX? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Someone (I forgot your name, sorry) said that he has no interest in this GenX

conversation, as it has nothing to do with The Beats. That's his feeling, but

many sources have made the connection between GenX & the Beats, the most

notable one I can think of being the Jack Kerouac School for Disembodied

poets in which Allen Ginsberg is very involved.

I had also thought of listing Billy Corgan on this list, but

was afraid of spawning a Kurt Cobain conversation, and hasn't that been done

enough already?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Along the lines of your legitimacy for Gen X on this list and your reference

to Cobain --- If William Burroughs thought enough about that Generation

and that singer to record spoken word albums with him, I am not

about to take the mantle on MY shoulders to tell Burroughs that he is

wrong and that there is nothing of merit in making that connection.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:22:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

> If you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more

>interesting.

OK. That test pattern on TV what about it? Pretty cool huh?

How long does iut take for your butter to melt? How much faster does it

melt per degree of temprature increase?

Who do you think is the best accountant?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I imagine this is supposed to be funny, but instead I find it rather sad

considering that the Beat related conversation on here revolves around

the name of JK's cat and ever time someone attempted to start a conversation

about something involving a literary (oh my did the Beats write?) topic

it is ignored by the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:35:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> mentioned in the post. The Beats' greatest achievement is not that

> they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but

> that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)

> opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by

> Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses

> and such.

>

When was poetry with that average Joe? If you have sometime in mind, can

you make some direct link-- stylistically, aesthetically-- with Beat

poetry?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't really aiming at the style etc of the Beats - what I was aiming at

was the notion that up until the latter half of the 19th century,

literature was not an accepted area within the realm of academics. It

wasn't until the post- and pre- WWI period that the likes of Eliot and

Pound turned poetry in a exteremly difficult and elite genre. It was no

longer accessible nor intended to be - to the average person or student.

Beat poets took poetry out of the academy which is why the likes of

Auden (in D Trillings' piece) found them to be an unacceptable group

of pseudo-artists. I don;t know how many of you are active or into

the current literary academic scene, but the Beats still have a long

way to go until they are accepted into the literary canon (don't flame

me for referring to it). To date, Ginsberg is the only Beat to be

anthologized in any accepted college texts like the Norton's.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:43:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Herbert Hunke at UConn

First off - you have not seen anything of value in your life until

you've sat in on a personal conversation between Ann Charters and a

real live Beat - the original Times Square Hipster to boot!

Anyway, something which all of you ought to appreciate as it is of relevance

to a Beat topic which someone has deemed acceptable to this list (ha ha)

is that we were able to turn Hunke's thoughts over to the intended

audience that the Beats were attempting to address with their work.

At first he joking mentioned the world at large, but Charters was

able to direct him towards academia itself (read here 1950's Ivory Tower

academics like Auden and those who kicked Ginsberg out of Colunbia for

pyschiatric evaluation). Hunke stated that those who needed to take a

second look at what the Beats were saying never did. He expressed

concern over not having pursued his education to the level that he

needed in order to feel comfortable addressing the academy. All this is

meant to back up my earlier claim that the Beats were clearly attempting

to bring poetry out of the academy which was ignoring them.

I hate to make another plea to authority, but I am not about to tell

Hunke he was wrong and that the Beats weren't trying to do what he said.

On the whole - an excellent reading. For a man of such age and

health, I was very impressed. If you have any opportunity to see

him anytime soon - do it.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:00:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

Hello again folks,

In a message dated 95-12-07 08:02:16 EST, Clay Vaughn writes:

++++The incident may have changed WSB's life, but I don't think anyone

can say he wouldn't have "continued the pursuit of writing" had this

not occurred. This thing motivated him to move PHYSICALLY, and

precipitated his subsequent rootlessness, but he was already writing:

those routines for which he is hilariously famous began earlier with

Kells Elvins, his boyhood buddy. I just can't see how this incident,

except peripherally, perhaps, necessitated his writing.++++++

on one account I was misleading. Yes, he was already writing. "And the

Hippos were boiled in their tanks" (anyone know where to get that one?) is

one example of this. However, his writing changed a great deal. I should

not have said "not continued the pursuit of writing" but rather "changed his

writing" AND "gave the man a newer, new urgency toward his writing I refer

us to a quote from WSB in _Literary Outlaw_....

"I am forced to the appalling conclusion that I would never have become a

writer but for Joan's death, and to a realization of th extent to which this

event has motivated and formulated my writing. I live with the constant

threat of possession, and a constant need to escape from possession, from

Control. So the death of Joan brought me in contact with the invader, the

Ugly Spirit, and maneuvered me into a lifelong struggle, in which I have had

no choice except to write my way out."

On the second count, you are dead wrong. Burroughs was wandering long before

Joan's death. Chicago, New York, Louisiana, Texas, Mexico... It was more

common in those days for a man of his social standing to take a solid job

right out of college, rather than pick up and move all over the country,

taking unusual jobs (exterminator) or no jobs at all. His state was already

"rootlessness" before that event.

Cheese and rice, I've been suckered into this discussion. And I was the one

clamoring about desire to actually discuss the texts.

with regret,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:33:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Why GenX?

>Critter asked whether Tarentino actually had the smarts to understand the

>imagery of the white horse - you know, I used to have this vision of QT too

>(like all of the clever aspects of his movies were accidents?), then I saw

>him on Charlie Rose. This guy is smart!

I was just commenting on that fact that what I've seen of him he didn't seem

to be the BRIGHTEST guy in the world. You're right, all those clever aspects

of his films couldn't have been accidents. I was thinking that all the nifty

character allusions from one film to the next was.. well, I just won't say

because I really do love the guy. I own all of his films and have seen

RD and TR more times than you can shake a stick at. I'd really like to

see him in a better light, like on the Charlie Rose show, whatever that

is.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 04:53:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: A turn for the worse....

I'm starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned

with HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,

defensive and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought

this was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or

criticized or censored. That's changed.

Critter, tell me more about the list you're thinking of starting. I'm

interested if it's a place where people aren't going to get flamed for not

obeying rules they had nothing to do with setting. (By the way, Charlie Rose

is a very good serious no-frills talk show on PBS).

Ben, you missed the point of "Being Mindful." I'm not going to explain it,

because I don't feel like defending my thought process only to open myself up

to non-constructive criticism anymore.

Before I go, one last thought from the Tao Te Ching and then I'll stop

cluttering the list with non-text related stuff : (those not interested in

non-Beat literature can either skip it or justify reading because Gary Snyder

used to translate Chinese verse into English))

The more laws and restrictions there are,

The poorer people become.

The sharper men's weapons,

The more trouble in the land.

The more ingenious and clever men are,

The more strange things happen.

The more rules and regulations,

The more theives and robbers.

Therefore the sage says:

I take no action and people are reformed

I enjoy peace and people become honest

I do nothing and people become rich

I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.

I'm sure someone will want to say "Ah hah! But you just quoted someone else

instead of speaking your own voice." Yeah - whatever.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:12:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Lineage, GenX

Rita and all of you, with due respect:

In a message dated 95-12-07 12:22:12 EST, Rita writes:

(BTW-is anyone else so intigued by Burroughs lineage? not only the adding

machine but the robert e. lee thing also. i am amazed at the popular

influence this family has had)

I am intrigued by Burroughs' lineage. My grandmother's aunt Mabel was still

alive when I was a young one, and I remember her vividly. She claimed to be

the youngest niece of Robt. E. Lee.

Beware. here in the South, the most common "ancestor" claimed is Robert E.

Lee.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^t^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On the topic of GenX and GenX Writing and the beats....

I am of the dreaded label, being 28 myself. I don't see much to the grouping

the writings under a good solid characterization JUST YET. It will take a

long time before we can look back and draw some conclusions about what's

happening now. The greatest innovation may be happening not in the writing

itself (sound familiar?), but in the publishing realm, self-publishing is

what I have in mind, what with every Scrappy, Dappy, and Doo building his own

web page and all of the 'zines published out there. I don't know how GenX

writing relates to the Beats, except I feel that my generation responds more

to those performers (primarily their major works) than any other group of

past artists. AND more writers are being read, although they are excluded by

higher-ups, because they can self-publish. Access. Access. Access.....

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:12:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen

Hello folks,

Peter McGahey wrote:+++++=I was told that in the Whitney exhibit - which is

on Beat artists- they are displaying a Pollock among other questonable

pieces. How can they

include him in a Beat exhibit?

I realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between Pollock

and some Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of art,

but I don't think that is acceptable. They apparently stick many

artists in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.++++++

My response,::I have read that William S. Burroughs' novel Naked Lunch was

described by Mary McCarthy as "it also has some of the qualities of an action

painting. It is a kind of *action novel*" (emphasis WM).

I can see some relationship between the fragmentation of the two styles,

WSB's and Pollocks, although I am no authority on either. Of course, if you

believe that The Beats were a social phenomenon, and not a literary

phenomenon, then I can't comment to Pollock's inclusion. I dont' know much

about the man.

William Miller

Tim Gallaher wrote that +++I have never heard that Kerouac never read the

book. I always heard he had read it and it was one of the many books

Burroughs turned him on to. I never heard of Burroughs using the term

fellaheen in his writings (though

I'm not so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times++++++

Mr. Burroughs uses the term "fellaheen" quite a bit in his writings,

particularly in the novels that he wrote in the 70's and 80's, I do believe.

I can believe that Kerouac used the term, AND read Spengler's book, I just

recall reading that WSB **tried** to get Kerouac to read it, I never actually

saw that Jack had read it.

Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:17:02 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!

In your message dated Tuesday 5, December 1995 you wrote :

> What do you believe goes through ones mind when we are in our mothers

> womb? Remember, that there is a certain month during the pregnancy that

> one does begin hearing. But what is it that the fetus hears?? Muffled

> sounds. So, that is another reason why I believe that we are born as a

> blank slate.

I disagree strongly that we are born as a blank slate. I presume that what you

mean by this is that we are born with a fate that is putty in our hands, to be

moulded as we wish. I also presume that you mean our cognitive abilities are

able to overcome our biological 'givens'. Firstly, if this were the case, then

we - humans - would have become extinct many millenia ago for the simple reason

that to survive, we must pass on messages (genes) giving what little information

we have learned about our changing environment to our offspring. These are the

accumulated messages written in DNA. They are based on chance happenings.

An example (from The Language of the Genes - v. important book by Steve Jones):

'Many Africans have an abnormal form of the red pigment of the blood,

haemoglobin. One of the...building blocks of the molecule itself...has been

changed by mutation. This 'sickle-cell' form protects against

malaria...[However,] people with two copies [of the cell] may suffer from brain

damage, heart failure and skeletal abnormalities.'

So you can see that a response to a malarial environment a long time ago affects

people today (in this case black people in Africa or elsewhere) - and affects

them by *chance*. This is an extreme case but applies in many many other

instances as well - in a cognitive and biological way.

What has this got to do with the beats, you may ask. And I don't know the

answer to that. But what I think it says is that fate does not exist, and

that we are affected by a multitude of chance events from the past and present.

Maybe it's a minute step towards knowing why we are here. What it doesn't tell

us is where we're going.

Hm...

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:59:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....

>Critter, tell me more about the list you're thinking of starting. I'm

>interested if it's a place where people aren't going to get flamed for not

>obeying rules they had nothing to do with setting. (By the way, Charlie

Rose

>is a very good serious no-frills talk show on PBS).

I never heard of the Charlie Rose show.. (saying that with an Ahhhhh, Okay,

attitude..). Anyhow, the list is still "in progress" at the moment. I am

still

working on the basics and looking at where I want to take this. Most of my

interest lies in the more "radical" movements in litature that have looked

deep into the heart of the art in order to change it, keep it in the times,

or

whatever reason. A secondary motive of mine which I believe is a LITTLE

egotistical (maybe not): that is, to look at the times and find the roots of

the next movement in line (if our times mandate such a revolution).

Seriously, I'd rather the list be composed of like minded thinkers and

artists

who not only share their knowledge but also their work, and, much like a

group of mad scientists all working on the ultimate weapon of war, I'd

think a certain bond would be in order between the people of the list, being

that we are indeed looking to start the next revolution.

Hell, in these modern days, where else would a literary revolution start

but on the Internet? (that's a joke).

..Critter

>The more laws and restrictions there are,

>The poorer people become.

>The sharper men's weapons,

>The more trouble in the land.

>The more ingenious and clever men are,

>The more strange things happen.

>The more rules and regulations,

>The more theives and robbers.

>

>Therefore the sage says:

>I take no action and people are reformed

>I enjoy peace and people become honest

>I do nothing and people become rich

>I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.

[The sound of one-handed applause] hehe..

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:14:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Lineage, GenX

>On the topic of GenX and GenX Writing and the beats....

>

>I am of the dreaded label, being 28 myself. I don't see much to the

grouping

>the writings under a good solid characterization JUST YET. It will take a

>long time before we can look back and draw some conclusions about what's

>happening now. The greatest innovation may be happening not in the writing

>itself (sound familiar?), but in the publishing realm, self-publishing is

>what I have in mind, what with every Scrappy, Dappy, and Doo building his

own

>web page and all of the 'zines published out there. I don't know how GenX

>writing relates to the Beats, except I feel that my generation responds

more

>to those performers (primarily their major works) than any other group of

>past artists. AND more writers are being read, although they are excluded

by

>higher-ups, because they can self-publish. Access. Access. Access.....

>

>As ever,

>

>William Miller

You hear a lot about this, how the net makes it possible for anyone to

publish

anything and set it before millions of readers. This is true, from one

aspect.

They can set it up to be accessed by those readers, but those readers aren't

necessarily accessing those pages. For example, my site, which is linked to

a couple thousand different literature, publishing, and personal web sites,

gets around 40 hits or so per day. I consider my site fairly known by a

select

amount of people. Now consider when JoeX puts his home page up with his

writing. By the end of the year he may have as many readers as he would

have by handing around photocopies of his work in his own city.

What I'm saying is, I really don' t think that the Web gives every hack

writer

the op. to publish his writing. Even on the Usenet those who read it will

consider it yet another paper in the stack and give it no special concern.

I think of Candy Colored Clown, an odd man that writes these odd little

peices of strangeness about the rich and famous. Sure, I remember some

of his work, but I don't remember what they said, only that he wrote them.

Is that really the goal of a writer? For myself, I'm fairly well known on

rec.

arts.poems., though most people won't be able to quote any of my work

or give a title of a peice that they enjoyed, they'd just say "Oh, yeah,

that

guy who writes radical poetry and is trying to start a revolution..."

Lowered to an icon..

..PomoCritter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:46:24 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Thorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....

>I'm starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned

>with HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,

>defensive and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought

>this was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or

>criticized or censored. That's changed.

Liz,

I've been extremely busy and have only taken cursory note of recent

mailings, but I hadn't been aware of any flaming taking place - Do you

mean people have been getting at you through your personal e-mail

address?

Please stay on the list.

Imagine the sort of hotwire discussions and ornery arguing that

would be taking place if, say, Neal Cassidy were able to get

online. There IS a place for hostility, when it springs

from the integrity of firmly held views.

Michael,

who'll look out for your future postings

to see if he can get the measure of your above complaint

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:30:21 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac & Jazz

In your message dated Wednesday 29, November 1995 you wrote :

> > Can anyone point me to a reference explicating the influence of Jazz on

> > Kerouac's prose? TIA.

He wrote extensively *about* jazz in 'The Beginning of Bop', which I have in a

book of jazz photography called Nights in Birdland. The peice has a real jazz

(bop) sound to it, especially if you read it fast. It starts:

'Bop began with jazz but one afternoon somewhere on a sidewalk maybe 1939, 1940,

Dizzy Gillespie or Charley Parker or Thelonious Monk was walking down past a

men's clothing store on 42nd Street or South Main in LA and from the loudspeaker

they suddenly heard a wild impossible mistake in jazz that could only have been

heard inside their own imaginary head, that is a new art. Bop. The name derives

from an accident, America was named after an Italian explorer and not after an

Indian king. Lionel Hampton had made a record called 'Hey Baba REe Bop' and

everyboy yelled it and it was when Lionel would jump in the audience and whale

his saxophone at everybody with sweat, claps, jumping fools in the aisles, the

drummer booming and belaboring on his stage as the whole theater rocked.'

There is also a live recording of K reading this.

--

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:34:02 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Martin <robmartin@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....

On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM> wrote:

>Before I go, one last thought from the Tao Te Ching and then I'll stop

>cluttering the list with non-text related stuff : (those not interested in

>non-Beat literature can either skip it or justify reading because Gary Snyder

>used to translate Chinese verse into English))

>

>The more laws and restrictions there are,

>The poorer people become.

>The sharper men's weapons,

>The more trouble in the land.

>The more ingenious and clever men are,

>The more strange things happen.

>The more rules and regulations,

>The more theives and robbers.

>

>Therefore the sage says:

>I take no action and people are reformed

>I enjoy peace and people become honest

>I do nothing and people become rich

>I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.

Thanks Liz... I've always wondered how to say that... Now I know.

----------------------------------------------------

Robert Martin

robmartin@earthlink.net 76403.1534@compuserve.com

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

- William Blake

----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:31:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen

>>they are displaying a Pollock among other questonable

>>pieces. How can they include him in a Beat exhibit?

>I realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between >Pollock and

some Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of >art, but I don't

think that is acceptable. They apparently stick many

>artists in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.+++++

I have been poking around for something linking Pollack to the beats,

I know there's something but couldn't find it. For a start, how about

proximity in time and space? I think young Ginsberg and Kerouac

were hanging out in New York around the same time the Cedar Bar was hopping

with Ab Ex paintflingers. There were evidently connections between the early

beats, jazz musicians like T. Monk,

and artists, eg De Kooning and especially Franz Kline.

As in most matters, I got more questions than answers - two for now:

Was there a catalog for the Whitney show?

Anybody know which artist Ginsberg is referring to in this line from "Throw

out the Yellow Journalists of Bad Grammar and Terrible Manner" (from White

Shroud):

and the wire-service fellow ex-Harvard, "This business about Secret Police,

why would you care, successful Abstract Expressionist painter, got a grudge

to work out on your parents?" ?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:13:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

I've heard (and would be glad to be set straight by one who knows the

language) that "fellaheen" means peasant in Arabic. But like ... William, I

think it was ... I have browsed through Spengler and haven't found the word.

If anyone can say wher it's to be found IN Spengler, I'd appreciate it. Got

the book out of the library. Hadn't been taken out in fifteen years! But I

think Kerouac did read some Spengler: he used to call Allen the "last of the

Faustian men," a Spengler reference, though I can't say for sure what he

meant.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:22:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....

Hello folks,

In a message, someone wrote::

>I'm starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned

>with HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,

>defensive and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought

>this was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or

>criticized or censored. That's changed.

>

i CERTAINLY did not mean to offend this person by simply stating that I

would "relish a discussion of the fictions, the actual TEXTS, of these

writers". If someone responds to my text, positive or negative, that's

criticism. I welcome that. Criticism helps me. If you disagree with me,

please say so. If you always agree with me and come out in support of my

opinions, you're certainly not reading what I'm writing.

Please, whoever you are, stay on the list. I meant no harm, I just came here

to exchange views and info on Burroughs and the others.

With respect,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:55:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Read OTR Together?

I agree that a discussion of selected text of the Beat writers

would be nice. Howard Park and I are about to reread OTR for the

Smithsonian course we are both taking. The danger of a group

reading of OTR might be that it is probably the most read of any

Beat book and everything that can be said about it might already

have been said. But if people are interested I would suggest the

possibility of a reading where we all get generally in sync and

take a certain amount of pages a week and focus on them. My

suggested focus would be to take up on an earlier post and that

would be the degree to which OTR is a revolutionary text --

stylistically and otherwise -- or is JK merely following in the

tradition of Gertrude Stein and others. Also where do we see the

influence of the French poets -- Rimbaud et. al. My request to

the academics out there who might know all the answers would be

to let us muddle through and give us a goose every now and then

in the right direction if we appear to wandering too far off, but

not to inundate us with massive amounts of information that will

make our own humble ramblings appear even more humble. I think

that was the sense I got from an earlier post which had

misgivings about getting too far into the text. The list has the

whole spectrum of knowledge, from people who are just getting

into "The Beats" to people who grew up with them and have been

studying them formally for years, so I think it behooves us to

try to accommodate all. So what do people think?

Several of you have requested my piece on postmodern poetry so

now I will have to try to find it. I'll hopefully get it off in

a couple of days.

BTW anyone who really wants a good insight into WSB's evolution

as a writer and the impact of the shooting on him NEEDS to read

his letters. I think of anything if have read of his, his

letters were the most important -- more so than other writers

whose text are more linear.

Pollock at the Whitney -- I guess they felt they didn't have

enough art in the exhibit. Certainly Ginsberg and Frank O'Hara

did have commonality and they read together. And certainly NY

School was one of the more important parallel movements of the

time, but Pollock died in 1956 and was the early phase of the

NYS. They would have been better off with a Larry Rivers piece

where there is a much more solid link.

Perry Lindstrom

PS We should also delve more into the postmodernity of OTR, if we

decide to go ahead with the read.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:13:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I have been poking around for something linking Pollack to the beats,

I know there's something but couldn't find it. For a start, how about

proximity in time and space? I think young Ginsberg and Kerouac

were hanging out in New York around the same time the Cedar Bar was hopping

with Ab Ex paintflingers. There were evidently connections between the early

beats, jazz musicians like T. Monk,

and artists, eg De Kooning and especially Franz Kline.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off - I love that term - "paintflingers" I hope don't mind if I adopt it

Second - as per someone's suggestion, I have read all my postings before

responding and have to mention that Perry Lindstrom hit on things that I

would like to mention but the limitations of the UConn mainframe

prevent me from qouting more that one of the postings.

I harp on this because my graduate thesis will most likely be exactly on

this topic. Although the Beats and the New York School (O'Hara, Ashbury

etc) were contemporaries, I think there are important differences. The

NY School, unlike the Beats, were friends with the AB Ex painters. The

Cedar was a great gathering place for the NY School bothpoets and painters.

O'Hara etc knew and supported the Ab Ex's (O'Hara was a curator at Moma)

while the Beats rarely saw or associated with either of the NY Schools.

O'Hara and Kerouac pretty much hated each other.

That's extraneous - what I think is the big difference is exactly what this

posting brought up. The Beats were very much influenced by jazz etc. Theirs

was an aural poetry. "Howl" and "Mexico City Blues" are not given justice

unless they are read aloud. If you haven't yet, you must find a recording

and listen to Kerouac and Ginsberg read their poems - it adds so much more.

Thus, their spontaneous poerty is for the ear. The AB EX painters and their

counterparts, the NY School poets are VISUAL. You need to see a Poloock

or a Kline to see their visual image of spontanaity. If you read an

O'Hara like "The Day Lady Died" you see the images in your head rather

than hear it. That is what I think is an important difference, more so

than my little investigation into their personal feelings for eachpother.

For reasons similar to this (I am not an art historian) I see differences

between the West Coast movement of this time as well. The San Francisno

painters may have had similar ideas as the NY School, but there are important

subtle differences. I personally have a problem extending the definition

of "Beat" to include anyone not in the direct circle of the Fab Four - JK,

Ginsberg, WB and Corso. Their immediate circle inclded many, Carr, Hunke

etc. but I don;'t think it really included many of the West Coaster.

What do you all think? Is Snyder and McClure etc a viable "Beat"?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:31:01 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Martin <robmartin@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Read OTR Together?

On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM> wrote:

>I agree that a discussion of selected text of the Beat writers

>would be nice. Howard Park and I are about to reread OTR for the

>Smithsonian course we are both taking. The danger of a group

>reading of OTR might be that it is probably the most read of any

>Beat book and everything that can be said about it might already

>have been said. But if people are interested I would suggest the

>possibility of a reading where we all get generally in sync and

>take a certain amount of pages a week and focus on them.

I'm all for it. But I'll probably just wind up reading everyone else's

comments, I'm just a recreational Kerouac user.

----------------------------------------------------

Robert Martin

robmartin@earthlink.net 76403.1534@compuserve.com

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

- William Blake

----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 00:49:30 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Daeley <rdaeley@EMPIRENET.COM>

Subject: POEM

Regarding recent list laughing-ravings, I offer up Monsieur Kerouac and

his "POEM" (from 1959):

POEM

Jazz killed itself

But dont let poetry kill itself

Dont be afraid

of the cold night air

Dont listen to institutions

when you return manuscripts to

brownstone

dont bow & scuffle

for Edith Wharton pioneers

or ursula major nebraska prose

just hang in your own backyard

& laugh play pretty

cake trombone

& if somebody give you beads

juju, jew, or otherwise,

sleep with em around your neck

Your dreams'll maybe better

There's no rain

there's no me,

I'm tellin ya man

sure as shit.

----------------------

Robert Daeley

rdaeley@empirenet.com

http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/

Authors Links & Info page:

http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/authors/authors.html

Film Directors Links & Info page:

http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/directors/directors.html

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:19:04 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Usages of "Fellaheen"

William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:

>Tim Gallaher wrote that +++I have never heard that Kerouac never read the

>book. I always heard he had read it and it was one of the many books

>Burroughs turned him on to. I never heard of Burroughs using the term

>fellaheen in his writings (though

>I'm not so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times++++++

>

>Mr. Burroughs uses the term "fellaheen" quite a bit in his writings,

>particularly in the novels that he wrote in the 70's and 80's, I do believe.

> I can believe that Kerouac used the term, AND read Spengler's book, I just

>recall reading that WSB **tried** to get Kerouac to read it, I never actually

>saw that Jack had read it.

>

>Miller

>

Could we maybe move a bit beyond these hazy references like "quite a bit"

and "many times"? Kerouac riffs on "Fellahin" (his spelling) in OTR, part

Four, chapter 6, p. 274 in the Penguin Modern Classics paperback, 1978

reprint. Now give me a usable reference to Burroughs' use of the concept,

please....

Regards,

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:26:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995 to 9 Dec 1995

Bravo, Perry! I think there's probably enough people with deep familiarity

with OTR to help out those just getting into it. And with 270-some

subscribers here (or was that when no one knew how to get off?!), I think we

can maintain a good reading group. And there's a Christmas scene in the

book, too, as I recall, which makes it seasonal!

Just say when, I'll be there. We might then follow it up with a more minor

work -- but I'm sure whatever we do, we'll have experts out there.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:48:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Read OTR Together?

In-Reply-To: <v01530503acefbceb9b2c@[153.37.59.41]> from "Robert Martin" at

Dec 9, 95 02:31:01 pm

Like Robert, I am also a "recreational Kerouac user," and I think an OTR

discussion group would be great. How/when do we start?

Tony

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:38:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Michael Herr Interview/OTR Movie

First, before we get into one of those silly "Is he/she beat enough to be

discussed on this list" discussions -- Michael Herr is the author of the most

recent On The Road screenplay. He is also a fine writer. His book,

"Dispatches" was one of the best ever about the Vietnam war. He was

interviewed in a small (not one of the major corporate ones) video store

giveaway magazines that I found in a place in Cambridge, Mass, near Harvard

Square.

He had a lot of interesting things to say. Unfortionately, I lost the

magazine and forget the name (sorry!). Also, I was visiting Boston from DC,

so I can't go back there anytime soon. If anyone can get there, I think the

place was called Psychotronic Video on Mass. Ave., about two blocks east of

Harvard Square.

Anyway, the movie has been shelved for the time being and he was not certain

at all that it will ever be made. I hope it happens!

Coppola has commissioned several screenplays over the years. Apparently,

Herr's is the only one to get serious consideration for eventual production.

Originally, in the 50's, the movie was to have cast Marlon Brando as the

lead (I assume Cassidy - actually I think he would have made a better Sal

Paradise). But, with all the beat mass hysteria and the absolute butchery of

the Subterranians, it never got made.

In general, Herr said that he followed the book pretty closely but they had

to cut major stuff, such as most of the "Mexican Girl" sequence.

He complained that Neal Cassidy is especially hard to cast.

He said that the focus is definately on the pure "road" parts of the book,

and less on the times in-between trips.

One past (rejected) screenplay condensed the whole book into one coast to

coast and back again sequence. Herr felt that was too much of a departure.

Herr mentioned how almost everyone thinks OTR took place in the fifties. Of

course it was 1947-48 (I think).

That covers the highlights of what I remember. Anyone else seen the

interview?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:43:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fellahin 2

Ted and others,

"Fellah type" appears in Spengler's book here: In the section entitled

"Cities and Peoples", about 1/4 of the way through, in a paragraph

immediately **preceded** by a paragraph which ends with the phrase "Nora and

Nana".

It also appears two pages later. This is page 251 in my abridged volume.

The term "fellaheen" also recurs in the last paragraph of the section entited

"Cities and Peoples" (Section XIII)

Perhaps it can be found in more places, but this is where I found it.

Yours,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:44:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Read OTR Together?

Hello folks,

I probably would not participate; I'd rather have a group reading of another

Kerouac novel. On the Road is the one I am most familiar with, and I have

planned to read some others before coming back to that one.

But I would encourage all to participate, and I may go along with it; perhaps

it would lead to a groupreading of another book later............... it

beats (no pun intended) whatever else we could be discussing...

William

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 21:22:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Got your Mojo workin? <an272@LEO.NMC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Read OTR Together?

In-Reply-To: <951210204310_129970921@mail02.mail.aol.com>

Hello,

This is my first post to this list and just got to that it's

great to find a list about the beats. I'm relativly new to the beat

lterature also, I got the portable beat reader in the spring and have

since been reading every related book the local bookstore has to offer.

Anyway I'd love to read OTR along with you all and see your views. Can't

say that I can offer to much in the way of literary critisicm or other

complex avenues of trying to therorize passages in ways Kerouac probably

didn't think of anyway, but I sure will try and enjoy trying!

Tom

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 06:56:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: OTR Reading

I'm glad to see the interest in reading OTR together. I have already started

and would suggest roughly that we read Part 1 over the next two weeks. Parts

2&3 could get a week each and parts 4&5 could be covered in a week (since

part five is just a couple pages) -- making this a 5 week project. I realize

people might be going off on holiday and might not have access to the list

for a few days at a time so we could slow things down during that period.

I'll be reading from the Penguin Classics edition with Jack and Neal on the

cover so my page references will be to that. I'll try to include chapter and

paragraph references for people reading in other editions. It is 6:30 a.m.

right now so I don't really have anything coherent to say, but I do have an

opening question. On page 8 of my edition -- the long paragraph (11 I

believe) that begins "We went to New York--" contains the now famous passage

about "...the only people for me are the mad ones..." After the wonderful

image of the roman candles he asks: "What did they call such young people in

Goethe's Germany?" Is he invoking Goethe as history's quintessential

intellectual and contrasting the young to him. Or is he invoking Goethe to

give his own work an intellectual basis -- a validity that would fly in the

face of how his work would likely be judged based on his use of the beatnik

vernacular? Towards the end of chapter One he contrasts Dean's (or should I

say Neal's -- I guess since we are discussing text here I will stick to the

fictional names) raw, sensual intelligence with his other friends -- not in a

way that would have made the rest of them very happy I might add. The most

telling line: "Besides all my New York friends were in the negative,

nightmare position of putting down society and giving their tired bookish or

political or psychoanalytical reasons, but Dean just raced in society..." So

why invoke Geothe -- was Jack conflicted on this? Enough for now...it's off

to work.

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:38:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Usages of "Fellaheen"

Comments: To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Hello folks:

In a message dated 95-12-10 10:24:16 EST, the person in Denmark wrote:

>>Mr. Burroughs uses the term "fellaheen" quite a bit in his writings,

>>particularly in the novels that he wrote in the 70's and 80's, I do

believe.

>> I can believe that Kerouac used the term, AND read Spengler's book, I just

>>recall reading that WSB **tried** to get Kerouac to read it, I never

>actually saw that Jack had read it.

>>

>>Miller

>>

>

>Could we maybe move a bit beyond these hazy references like "quite a bit"

>and "many times"? Kerouac riffs on "Fellahin" (his spelling) in OTR, part

>Four, chapter 6, p. 274 in the Penguin Modern Classics paperback, 1978

>reprint. Now give me a usable reference to Burroughs' use of the concept,

>please....

>

>Regards,

>

You may not find this to be "usable", but in _The Western Lands_,

(Burroughs), ISBN 0140094563, i find the term ^fellahin^ on a page, "...The

Western Lands of the rich are watered by *fellaheen blood, built of

*fellaheen flesh and bones, lighted by *fellaheen spirit."(* =

italicized)....again, same book, a few pages later, "...store the plasma of

the fellaheen neded to preserve their masters..."

_The Place of Dead Roads_ (Burroughs) isbn 805039546, near the beginning of

the section entitled "Quien Es?" "...they never ask themselves how such a

system *could work. It ran on fellahin blood...."

Burroughs' use of the concept of the fellaheen is found throughout his

fiction, in my opinion, although he uses the *term less often than the

concept.

I'm sorry that you find "quite a bit" to be hazy. I don't have a true

scientific count of the frequency of the term "fellaheen" in WSB's writings.

I found these 3 in about 5 minutes, though, if that gives you any clue....

And that's what I call quite a bit..

Yours,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:15:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen

In answer to someone's question, yes there is a catalog from the Whitney

show. It's $35, very ecclectic...interesting...a lot of original stuff in

it, it's not full of already over anthologized stuff...I suppose any good

bookstore could special order it and I'm sure the hard working beat

booksellers on the net will have it.

Also, I think the beat-Pollock link is pretty strong. Both were very much

out of the same post-war cultural ferment of the late 40's in New York and

Pollock was certainly known to AG, JK, etc. as well as anyone who hung out at

the Cedar Bar. Pollock was pretty notorious, more so than AG or Kerouac at

the time (except for the Carr episode). In any case the Pollock painting at

the Whitney exhibit is probably more connected to the beats than most of the

others.

H. Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:39:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Rice <PAULR@COASTAL.EDU>

Organization: Coastal Carolina University

Subject: Re: Lineage, GenX

I really think that a discussion of GenX is germane to any discussion

of the Beats. The intellectual history of the Postmodern is

inextricably tied up in the value system of the revolution of the

sixties. The MTV mentality is the absurd reduction of the anti-intellectual,

anti-university impetus of beats like Snyder, who while he remains

one of my heroes, was hard on formal education even though he is

extremely learned. Some hypocrisy here, I think.

Autodidacticism easily gives way to adidacticism. And I am reminded of the

Beatle's anti-capitalist songs written while their CEO hauled their

money to bank in trucks. I am a hippie-turned-professor. My

Snyder-reading, reefer-smoking days, delayed my education by ten

years. I teach thedrug-torpid, addled know-nothings which the children of my

generation have become. I'm sure this is not what Gary and Jack and

Allen had in mind, but they helped make it his way. Jack said as

much before he died.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:21:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR Reading

Re: Goethe question - I'd just say that, given Kerouac's obsession with

famious writers he was just using it as a historical reference - like

"Kennedy's America" or "Hitler's Germany" or "Blake's England" -- Kerouac was

into the classic writers, so in comparing his generation to anther time and

place it would be quite natural to invoke the name of a writer identified

with a country and a time. I know almost nothing about Goethe. I took all

sociology and pol. science classes in college.

I'll probably read OTR in one or two sittings but I'd be happy to join in any

discussions. I'm already feeling stressed about all I have to do before

Xmas. I won't pick it up till late Dec.

Hope you can make the Sat. show. It will be loud rock, so make sure you're

in the mood for that. Let me know if you have any questions about the show.

Howard

Howard

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 01:30:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Goethe

I tend to think the reference is to young early Romantics -- "bohemians" --

these 1940s drop-out non-conformists self-styling themselves upon past

instances of young sensitive spiritual sorrowful (as in ... of Young Werther)

aberrant behavior.

Reminds me: there's an episode of Blackadder (British comedy starring Rowan

Atkinson) set in the 19th century, on Brit romantics (inexactly quoted):

"they just wander around Europe in big shirts trying to get laid."

That's my speculation.

By the way, if anyone's interested in a good book about the NY "Underground"

art scene, one which by not sticking too heavily with definitions like beat

or abstract expressionist makes links among people who were all in the same

place at the same time, Village late 1940s-early 60s, check out Ron

Sukenick's _Down & In: Life in the Underground_. Great descriptions of

scenes at bars like San Remo, Minetta's, etc., as well as much off-the-cuff

interviewing of Ginsberg, Baraka, Corso, etc. Pollock and so-called Beats

got drunk at same time, same places. What more does one need?

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:54:10 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: chance - rant rave

before i start on this nonsense,

liz prato

WRITE MORE!!!!

the question of spontaneity in kerouac's writing led to a thread

of...

> I believe...that there is no such thing as chance. Everything stems

> from some sort of experience. Our whole life has been experience

> after experience. If he says that it is chance it is probably a

> subconcious memory or experience that is being written down onto

> his paper.

> molly (i think, apologies in advance if i'm wrong)

if there is no such thing as chance, then everything is pre-ordained,

pre-destined...and therefore a god...

> There is nothing *but* chance in life. Life is chance. OK, it may

> be that what is 'experience' stems from a chance happening to

> ourselves or to our ancestors but it is (was) chance. It was chance

> that your parents met one another (not meant as a flame!)...

> I'd like to expand on this later.

> Simon Okotie

if everything is chance, then nothing is pre-ordained, and there is

no such thing as destiny...and therefore no god...

the final side of this triangle is that the only thing that is

pre-ordained is the fact that there is nothing pre-ordained and

therefore a god who 'rolls a die' as i think einstein once

remarked...and hawking later ridiculed...

catholism is essentially a 'god' religion...

i.e. if you don't believe in god, the religion falls flat on it's

arse and cannot possibly work for you

buddhism is essentially a 'no god' religion...

i.e. whether you do or don't belive in god, the religion can still

work for you

interesting paradox to the catholic v buddhist 'struggle' of

kerouac...grew from catholic...into buddhist...back again but

never the same...kerouac believed in spontaneous prose, for

those who haven't read the henry miller preface to the subs i

include the following...

" jack kerouac has done something to our immaculate prose from

which it may never recover. a passionate lover of language, he

knows how to use it. born virtuoso that he is, he takes pleasure

in defying the laws and conventions of literary expression which

cripple genuine, untrammeled communication between reader and

writer. as he has so well said in 'the essentials of spontaneous

prose' - 'satisfy yourself first, then reader cannot fail to

receive telephathic shock and meaning-excitement by same laws

operating in his own human mind'. "

i believe the spontaneous side of kerouac was very much his buddhist

beliefs but had more roots in the personality of a certain mr

cassady. personally i think he believed more in proust and dostoevsky

than either of the two religions. i think he drew more from

experience and the perception of mind altering drugs. he only ever

claimed to be a writer (experience) and a lonely lost soul (drugs).

however, he could never have claimed to be a catholic mystic unless

his religion affected him to the degree this list reads & writes about

(myself included!).

responsiblity. yes everyone is responsible for their actions! but

in no way responsible for consequences of their actions.

ie. if ginsberg writes about young boys, then is he responsible for

others who mess with young boys after reading his work? it must

be the responsibility of the reader.

ie. if burroughs writes about drugs, is he then responsible for other

junkies who follow his example? or for the junkies who give up

because of burroughs nightmares and encounters with mr death?

unless we can see into the future before an action is taken, we cannot

be held repsponsible for the consequences of our actions.

i hold responsiblity for this belief, but not repsonsiblity for the

consequences of this belief. i can't read your mind ;-)

if you believe that others aren't responsible for themselves, then

you become a censor believing you know what's best for others.

and for you gossip mongers interested in the sexuality of the beats

i have a j.issacs video interview with allen ginsberg (1994), where

mr ginsberg states that he never slept with mr kerouac. contrary to

previous e-mail messages.

joe

currently avoiding the russian snow blanketing northern england by

fleeing to southern spain on a hemmingway inspired expedition to write

spontaneous code (computer language - like kerouac programmed

our minds!) for the sake of all those encapsulated by these digital

toys.

fuckin' tosh or what man!

this is the tale of a northern soul,

looking to find his way back home...

i want to see if you know me,

i was born in a rented room.

my mam she didn't get no flowers,

dad didn't aprove of me do you i'm alive -

with something inside of me,

i don't think i'm coming down...

give me your powder and pills,

i want to see if they cure my ills.

got no time for love and devotion,

got no time for old fashioned potions.

cos i'm alive...

with something inside of me...

and i don't think i'm coming down...

r.ashcroft

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:35:43 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: chance - rant rave

> the question of spontaneity in kerouac's writing led to a thread...

Thanks, Joe, for spinning that spontaneous thread...a very interesting

discussion when put together like that...

> if everything is chance, then nothing is pre-ordained, and there is

> no such thing as destiny...and therefore no god...

I believe there is some sort of individual 'destiny' made up off stored

'experiences' from our own lifetime (memories) and from our forebears' lives

(genes) and that these experiences are based on an accumulation of many many

chance occurrences. It is the sheer scale of the number of chance occurrences

and the impossibility of untangling the web of linkages that leads us to feel

that there must be a destiny which is given to us by a higher force. However,

this does not *necessarily* mean that there is no god, since the fundamental

question remains about how the whole process started...so I believe that your

comment above is a non-sequitur.

> the final side of this triangle is that the only thing that is

> pre-ordained is the fact that there is nothing pre-ordained and

> therefore a god who 'rolls a die' as i think einstein once

> remarked...and hawking later ridiculed...

Einstein actually said 'God does not play dice'. By the way - which Hawking are

we talking about?

Have a good time in Spain...!

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:40:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: OTR Reading Time

I have realized that I greatly overestimated the time needed to read OTR. It

simply can not be read slowly. So unless people have a whole lot to say

about it I can't imagine five weeks on it. Although certainly a thread could

last that long if we get off on a particular tangent -- so let's just read

the durn thing. I notice that Goethe reappears when he first gets to Denver

-- he takes a nap under a bust of Goethe -- father figure?

Perry

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:55:59 MET

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dale Carter <engdc@HUM.AAU.DK>

Organization: Faculty of Arts, Aarhus University

Subject: Re: William Burroughs and William Tell

Someone was asking recently about specific evidence concerning a link

between William Burroughs' shooting of his wife, Joan, and his writing.

One source on this is Mr. Burroughs' own introduction to the 1985 Viking Penguin

edition of Queer. In it, the author writes breifly but directly

about the shooting and his subsequent literary career:

'I am forced to the appalling conclusion that I would never have

become a writer but for Joan's death, and to a realization of the

extent to which this event has motivated and formulated my writing. I

live with the constant threat of possession, and a constant need to

escape from possession, from Control. So the death of Joan bought me

in contact with the invader, the Ugly Spirit, and maneuvered me into

a lifelong struggle, in which I have had no choice except to write my

way out.'

William Burroughs, Queer (London: Pan, 1986), p. 18. This book was

originally published as a Viking Penguin in 1985.

Dale Carter (Dr)

Department of English

University of Aarhus

DK-8000 Aarhus C

Denmark

phone: (Denmark = 45) 89 42 21 21

fax: (Denmark = 45) 86 19 16 99

email: engdc@hum.aau.dk

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:54:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995 to 9 Dec 1995

William - I just want you to know it was not you I was referring to. Your

request was respectful & appropriate. Hope you get what you're looking for.

- Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:22:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: OTR Reading

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <951211220946_51463990@emout06.mail.aol.com>

-- another instance where this is true: in the Subterraneans, he remarks

that his generation reacts differently whereas "Dostoevsky would've said

`WHAT'". Just a thought.....

On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Howard Park wrote:

> Re: Goethe question - I'd just say that, given Kerouac's obsession with

> famious writers he was just using it as a historical reference - like

> "Kennedy's America" or "Hitler's Germany" or "Blake's England" -- Kerouac was

> into the classic writers, so in comparing his generation to anther time and

> place it would be quite natural to invoke the name of a writer identified

> with a country and a time. I know almost nothing about Goethe. I took all

> sociology and pol. science classes in college.

>

> I'll probably read OTR in one or two sittings but I'd be happy to join in any

> discussions. I'm already feeling stressed about all I have to do before

> Xmas. I won't pick it up till late Dec.

>

> Hope you can make the Sat. show. It will be loud rock, so make sure you're

> in the mood for that. Let me know if you have any questions about the show.

>

> Howard

>

> Howard

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:27:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: To: Beat Net <beat-l%cunyvm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu>

to all--

here's just a thought, and it will probably start a fight, but

these fights always seem to spark interesting ideas, so what the hell.

everyone always talks about how On the Road is a take-off of huck

finn. i'm not sure i agree, but i do think that if any claims to kerouac

"takin off" anything are to exist, we should look at the similarities

between The Subterraneans and Hemmingway's The Sun Also Rises. just a

thought........

-- paul

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:05:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Being that The Sun Also rises is my favorite book, i would love to hear how you

figure this to be true. I would think it is more like Dostoyevsky's Notes From

Underground. Even the title is similar: Sub=Under, Terrain=Ground.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 06:59:18 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sun vs. Sub

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:05:39 EST

I once tried to pursue the thought; comparing the Beat Generation to the

Lost Generation. Not much to really go with, there. Two different

historical times, different mind-sets...

In the introduction of my paperback copy of The Subs, mention is made

that the book is Jack's version of Notes From The Underground.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:03:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sun vs. Sub (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I once tried to pursue the thought; comparing the Beat Generation to the

Lost Generation. Not much to really go with, there. Two different

historical times, different mind-sets...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the book _13th Gen_ by Neil Howe and Bill Strauss there is an excellent

link made (on many grounds, mainly sociological) between the Lost

Generation and GenX. Ha Ha - isn't it funny that that keeps coming up.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:17:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: your mail

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <01HYQ0RDLR0Y91VXDP@SONOMA.EDU>

-- i don't have a copy of the sun also rises from which to refer and it's

been several years since i read it, but i will get back to you on that

one. as for the notes from the underground thing, i think that's kind of

unlikely. kerouac was obviously influenced by dostoevsky but the plots,

themes, and symbols in both novels are radically different.

-- paul

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Mr. Congeniality wrote:

> Being that The Sun Also rises is my favorite book, i would love to hear how

you

> figure this to be true. I would think it is more like Dostoyevsky's Notes From

> Underground. Even the title is similar: Sub=Under, Terrain=Ground.

>

> Love Always,

> Eric Simpkins

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:03:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: rant rave oops

> if everything is chance, then nothing is pre-ordained, and there is

> no such thing as destiny...and therefore no god...

>I believe there is some sort of individual 'destiny' made up off

>stored 'experiences' from our own lifetime (memories) and from our

>forebears' lives (genes) and that these experiences are based on an

>accumulation of many many chance occurrences. It is the sheer scale of

>the number of chance occurrences and the impossibility of untangling the

>web of linkages that leads us to feel that there must be a destiny which

>is given to us by a higher force. However, this does not *necessarily*

>mean that there is no god, since the fundamental question remains about

>how the whole process started...so I believe that your comment above is a

>non-sequitur.

i don't why i get into these sort of conversations thru short

paragraphed e-mail, but...

in context to the complete e-mail of *catholic & buddhist religious

belief*, i was leading into kerouacs struggle of catholism v buddhism,

his style of writing and how the 'chance' discussions could 'sort of

highlight' this by what are in essence the religious arguments for

the existence of a god and their reference to destiny/chance.

the point i was trying to illustrate was that if life has a 'destiny'

then someone or something must have created that 'destiny' hence a 'god'.

if you believe in any form of 'destiny' (even the destiny of chance!)

you believe in a 'god/creator/ruler' etc.

if there is 'no destiny', _everything_ is pure chance/accident/

circumstance etc., then logically there must be 'no god'.

remember the principle of logic is True/False, Yes/No etc.

however, like you say, this world is sooooo huge & there exists sooo

many logical mysteries everywhere, that i attempted to bridge the gap

between the first two propositions...

ABSTRACT DICE!

> the final side of this triangle is that the only thing that is

> pre-ordained is the fact that there is nothing pre-ordained and

> therefore a god who 'rolls a die' as i think einstein once

> remarked...and hawking later ridiculed...

'god' has sort of said 'let there now be no god'...

i hope this is the case, cos if life is the logical opposite to

death and death therefore the logical opposite to life, then there

is a third state of flux existing between the two to ensure transition!

we'll be in a fine mess if there isn't!

> Einstein actually said 'God does not play dice'. By the way - which

> Hawking are we talking about?

you're right, i now recall hawking (stephen) said it against einstein

and then later exclaimed that 'not only does god play dice, but he also

throws them into parts of the universe where he can't see them'.

the point i was making, is that there is (provable? - to a select

few on this planet!) room for both...

i think kerouac realised this (in his own way) and thus developed his

style of spontaneous prose from the 'chance' element rather than 'lets

plan this' element. make any sort of sense?

apologies if this sounds like bullshit but i'm young and have much to

learn.

> Have a good time in Spain...!

i'm trying,

- not that it's very difficult ;-)

> Simon Okotie

> e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

> tel: +181 830 3604

> 22 The Avenue

> Queen's Park

> London

> NW6 7YD

> UK

is this really such a good idea?

you're home telephone number _and_ home address!

there's some crazy mothers out there

- dice that 'god' didn't even know he'd thrown never mind couldn't see!

lock you're doors & kind regards

joe

'all truth is simple - is that not a compound lie?'

- f.nietzsche

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:43:14 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: rant rave oops

In-Reply-To: <951214160325_100106.1102_EHQ69-2@CompuServe.COM>

On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Joe wrote:

>

> if there is 'no destiny', _everything_ is pure chance/accident/

> circumstance etc., then logically there must be 'no god'.

>

> remember the principle of logic is True/False, Yes/No etc.

>

Though I'm an advocate of "let's talk about the texts" I couldn't let

this comment go by-- logic just ain't logical any more-- dialectical

thinking has been, well "deconstructed." There is no true without false,

yes without no, self without other-- and, I guess, god without chance.

wow. kept that short.

yrs. &c.

steven cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:16:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whatuv@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

Comments: To: BoomShenka@aol.com, Elder#m#_Bo@msgate.apple.com,

bastein@imap2.asu.edu, creeps@pipeline.com, jgold@instinet.com,

Ganyard#m#_Joye@msgate.apple.com

Comments: cc: ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com, cooling@students.BITNET

This is an OLD example of what's called "Urban folklore", in other words,

CRAP!!

First of all, this is not possible, second of all, it's an old myth that's

been flying around the InterNet for years!!!

Perhaps we should all wear aluminium on our heads to keep out the "alien mind

control lasers" from controling our brains....

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:29:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whatuv@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

Comments: To: Elder#m#_Bo@msgate.apple.com, bastein@imap2.asu.edu,

creeps@pipeline.com, jgold@instinet.com,

Ganyard#m#_Joye@msgate.apple.com, Little#m#_Mike@msgate.apple.com

Comments: cc: ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com, cooling@students.BITNET

Also, feel free to check out the following newsgroups on the InterNet :

alt.folklore.urban

alt.planning.urban

alt.urban.folklore

as they have all sorts of information on these sorts of things....

again, the myth is crap, totally UNTRUE, and in fact impossible to do the

things the original message claims it can do. The info was also condemned as

crap by both America On Line (a LONG time ago!!) & by someone at the FCC.

Sorry if the info scared anyone, but, hey, there's a lot of crappy info out

there, and lots of people constantly making up more new crap for lots of

various reasons, so, be careful about what you choose to believe in ( which

is a DAMN GOOD idea anyway!)

Love to all,

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:46:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Elder, Bo" <Elder#m#_Bo@MSGATE.APPLE.COM>

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

Comments: To: bastein@imap2.asu.edu, BoomShenka@aol.com, creeps@pipeline.com,

jgold@instinet.com, Whatuv@aol.com, "Ganyard, Joye"

<Ganyard#m#_Joye@msgate.apple.com>

Comments: cc: cooling@students.BITNET, ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com

What's a virus?

_______________________________________________________________________________

From: Whatuv@aol.com on Thu, Dec 14, 1995 12:23 PM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

To: Elder, Bo; Ganyard, Joye; BoomShenka@aol.com; bastein@imap2.asu.edu;

creeps@pipeline.com; jgold@instinet.com

Cc: BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu; ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com; cooling@students

This is an OLD example of what's called "Urban folklore", in other words,

CRAP!!

First of all, this is not possible, second of all, it's an old myth that's

been flying around the InterNet for years!!!

Perhaps we should all wear aluminium on our heads to keep out the "alien mind

control lasers" from controling our brains....

------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------

Received: by msgate.apple.com with SMTP;14 Dec 1995 12:12:53 -0700

Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com ([152.163.172.66]) by

federal-excess.apple.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA01320; Thu, 14 Dec

1995 12:16:27 -0800

From: Whatuv@aol.com

Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA13500; Thu, 14 Dec 1995

15:16:32 -0500

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:16:32 -0500

Message-ID: <951214151631_90272103@mail02.mail.aol.com>

To: BoomShenka@aol.com, Elder#m#_Bo@msgate.apple.com, bastein@imap2.asu.edu,

creeps@pipeline.com, jgold@instinet.com,

Ganyard#m#_Joye@msgate.apple.com

cc: BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu, ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com, cooling@students

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:33:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lauren Syrek <hamonrye@BASIC.NET>

Subject: Politics as usual

Comments: cc: nat2@lehigh.edu, vgarcia@goliat.ugr.es, tonninjm@PLU.edu,

kirkmoe@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu, dada@occ4.oakton.edu, faeryfire@aol.com,

hpark4@aol.com, pks@safco.com, jme@safco.com, amj@safco.com,

jdi@safco.com, james90s@aol.com, bobgoss@aol.com,

heidemca@webster2.websteruniv.edu, marytodd@uic.edu

The credit belongs to _Mother Jones_/Alan Dundes. These jokes appear in the

Jan/Feb '96 issue.

________________________________________________________________________________

Ex-governor Jerry Brown walks into a bar with a frog on his head.

He sits down and orders a drink. The bartender sees the frog on his head

and asks, "What the hell happened to you?"

The frog replies, "It all started with a wart on my ass."

Said Mrs. Nixon to Mrs. Kennedy on the eve of the 1960 election, "I

slept with the future president of the United States, last night," to which

Mrs. Kennedy responded, "That Jack will do anything for a vote."

Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Gary Hart and Joe Biden are on a boat.

It begins to sink. Immediately, Jimmy Carter leaps to his feet and says,

"Save the women and children!"

Nixon replies, "Fuck the women and children."

Hart says, "Have we got time?"

Biden says, "Have we got time?"

What's the title of Gary Hart's new book? _Six Inches Away from the

Presidency_.

Did you hear Joe Biden is writing his memoirs? It's called _Iacocca_.

Have you heard the one about the new Regan typewriter? It has no

memory or colon.

Ronald Regean calls OJ Simpson after the not-guilty-verdict and

says, "Congratulations. You must be glad this whole mess is over. When the

hullabaloo dies down, you must really come over and have dinner with me and

Nancy."

"Why thank you, Mr. President," OJ answers. "I'd be honored."

"Certainly," Regean replies. "And by all means, bring Nicole."

Bill and Hillary are driving to Arkansas. Needing gas, they pull

over. Hillary excuses herself to the ladies' room. After filling the tank,

Bill goes looking for Hillary and is surprised to see her talking

animatedly with the gas station attendant. Stunned, he watches as she gives

the attendant a big hug and a kiss on each cheek.

"What was that all about," Bill asks when she returns to the car.

"Oh," explains Hillary, " I went to high school with that guy. In

fact, I think I dated him at one time. We were catching up on old times."

"Well," observes Bill, "I guess if you had married him, you'd be

pumping gas today."

"Oh no," says Hillary, "If I married him, he'd be the president of

the United States."

________________________________________________________________________________

Happy Holidays.

***Bite me.

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:27:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: sf chronicle

On Nov. 29 Andrew Burnett noted that a series of articles in th 11/26

San Francisco Chronicle could be accessed at

http://www.sfgate.com/programs/waisgate. I've been unsuccessful in

finding this site through the URL or Netscape's search engines. I did

find the Chronicle for the 26th but got an empty menu. Has anyone been

able to find and download these articles? If so, can you offer any

advice?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:14:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: sf chronicle

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:27:37 EST from <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

On Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:27:37 EST Bill Gargan said:

>On Nov. 29 Andrew Burnett noted that a series of articles in th 11/26

>San Francisco Chronicle could be accessed at

>http://www.sfgate.com/programs/waisgate. I've been unsuccessful in

>finding this site through the URL or Netscape's search engines. I did

>find the Chronicle for the 26th but got an empty menu. Has anyone been

>able to find and download these articles? If so, can you offer any

>advice?

Here's how I found it today.

http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/index.shtml gets you the front page,

which includes a link to "Previous Editions." That gets you a link

to the Sunday 26 November 1995 edition, and the Beat articles can be

found in the "Pink" pages.

Seems to me I found a more direct route before, but this seems the

least complicated now.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:24:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Lost Generation

Please excuse my late response as I am in the end of semester upheaval.

A few days (weeks?) back someone mentioned the Beats and any connection to

the Lost Generation. I just so happened to be reading the book reviews

Dorothy Parker (Lost generation wit and poet) wrote for _Esquire_

in the late 1950's. In her review of JK's _Subterraneans_ she says:

"the 'how' of the Beat Boys and Girls is of an appalling monotony. Nights

and days flow into one. They go swoon to that music, they get themselves

stoned on beer (which I believe is a possibility in one's tender yeras),

they fight and forget it, they are forever piling into rickety cars and driving

furiously to the far-away house of some unexpecting friend, where they

establish themselves for days. These practices, I admit, were not unknown

on occasion to membersof that Lost Generation you may have heard about, but

such was not their entire way of life; there are among the Lost Generation

those who made fairly important contributions to their times. The Beat

Ones never have to be anywhere , never want to go anywhere except just to

some other place"

Now, some can claim that Scott Fitzgerald has a better claim to be the

voice of the Lost Generation, but Dorothy was as alcoholic and srewed

up as the best of them (except she lived a lot longer). So I guess her claim

here is that since the Beats made this a way of life and the Lost Generation

didn't , they aren't the same.

What do you think?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:44:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: take me off the list

I am terribly sorry to do this to all of you, but I lost the address to tak me

off the list. Please remove me from the list. Thank You.

Love always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:52:27 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lost Generation

At 02:24 PM 12/15/95 EST, you wrote:

>Please excuse my late response as I am in the end of semester upheaval.

>

>A few days (weeks?) back someone mentioned the Beats and any connection to

>the Lost Generation. I just so happened to be reading the book reviews

>Dorothy Parker (Lost generation wit and poet) wrote for _Esquire_

>in the late 1950's. In her review of JK's _Subterraneans_ she says:

>

>"the 'how' of the Beat Boys and Girls is of an appalling monotony. Nights

>and days flow into one. They go swoon to that music, they get themselves

>stoned on beer (which I believe is a possibility in one's tender yeras),

>they fight and forget it, they are forever piling into rickety cars and driving

>furiously to the far-away house of some unexpecting friend, where they

>establish themselves for days. These practices, I admit, were not unknown

>on occasion to membersof that Lost Generation you may have heard about, but

>such was not their entire way of life; there are among the Lost Generation

>those who made fairly important contributions to their times. The Beat

>Ones never have to be anywhere , never want to go anywhere except just to

>some other place"

>

>Now, some can claim that Scott Fitzgerald has a better claim to be the

>voice of the Lost Generation, but Dorothy was as alcoholic and srewed

>up as the best of them (except she lived a lot longer). So I guess her claim

>here is that since the Beats made this a way of life and the Lost Generation

>didn't , they aren't the same.

>

>What do you think?

>

>

I think all this generation stuff is a bunch of made up nonsense anyhow.

The comments of Dorothy Parker here seem to be specifically addressing the

events depicted in the Subterraneans. That the plot of one book could be

seen to exemplyfy the actions of an entire generation is absurd.

I remember Kurt Vonnegut's comment about the line in Howl that said I saw

the best minds of my generation destroyed...Vonnegut comment was that the

best minds of that generation (which was also Vonnegut's) were in

Biochemistry labs.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:17:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lauren Syrek <hamonrye@BASIC.NET>

Subject: Politics as usual

If anyone is motivated enough to pick up Mother Jones due to my jokes,

they'll see that Gary Snyder has a little essay about the changes in

society during the past 20 years.

I just wanted to lighten the air. My apologies.

>This is a list devoted to discussion of Beat authors. Please refrain from post

>ing messages outside this topic.

(from Bill Gargan)

Laurie

*****Email me if you need my address in London. I'm leaving on the 20th of

January.******

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:21:17 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lauren Syrek <hamonrye@BASIC.NET>

*************************___________________________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"One more thing. Unsubscribe me, please. Your lack of humor and

intellectual stiffness is not something I appreciate. (Neither would the

authors you study, I'm afraid.) For what it's worth, political humor,

combined with the study of the Beat Generation/authors, is a perfect

combination. When we talk of rebellion and angst, we're not just talking

about adolescent males screaming at America and railing against Time

magazine. We're talking about humor, and the freedom to mock our leaders.

What makes the Beat authors so great is the fact that they can combine this

angst I speak of with a their keen senses of humor. I'm sorry you don't

agree."

>This is a list devoted to discussion of Beat authors. Please refrain from post

>ing messages outside this topic.

Laurie

*****Email me if you need my address in London. I'm leaving on the 20th of

January.******

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:51:57 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: muddled thinking

In the thread "Lineage, Gen X" someone posted the following:

"I really think that a discussion of GenX is germane to any discussion

of the Beats. The intellectual history of the Postmodern is

inextricably tied up in the value system of the revolution of the

sixties. The MTV mentality is the absurd reduction of the anti-intellectual,

anti-university impetus of beats like Snyder, who while he remains

one of my heroes, was hard on formal education even though he is

extremely learned. Some hypocrisy here, I think.

Autodidacticism easily gives way to adidacticism. And I am reminded of the

Beatle's anti-capitalist songs written while their CEO hauled their

money to bank in trucks. I am a hippie-turned-professor. My

Snyder-reading, reefer-smoking days, delayed my education by ten

years. I teach thedrug-torpid, addled know-nothings which the children of

my

generation have become. I'm sure this is not what Gary and Jack and

Allen had in mind, but they helped make it his way. Jack said as

much before he died."

I agree with the first two sentences. After that I take issue. Can you be

specific on Snyder's "anti-intellectual, anti-university impetus?" He has

always seemed pretty scholarly to me. He studied at Reed Colege, Indiana

University and U.C. Berkeley, and now teaches at U.C Davis. But I think what

the Beats were and are against is academic speak such as "autodidacticism

easily gives way to adidacticism." Whom are you speaking to and for when you

say things like that?

You say Snyder remains one of your heroes but your "Snyder-reading,

reefer-smoking days" delayed your education. Isn't it all a continuum? Don't

you think insights gained from Snyder, and reefer, could have led to your

later studies? And then who are these "drug-torpid, addled know-nothings?" Do

you really see your students that way? I think you have more to say by way

of explanation. What you have said so far seems muddled to me.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:13:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lost Generation

In-Reply-To: Your message <951215.143752.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> of

Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:24:24 EST

On Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:24:24 EST, Peter McGahey

<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU> wrote;

Please excuse my late response as I am in the end of semester upheaval.

A few days (weeks?) back someone mentioned the Beats and any connection

to

the Lost Generation. I just so happened to be reading the book reviews

Dorothy Parker (Lost generation wit and poet) wrote for _Esquire_

in the late 1950's. In her review of JK's _Subterraneans_ she says:

"the 'how' of the Beat Boys and Girls is of an appalling monotony.

Nights

and days flow into one. They go swoon to that music, they get

themselves

stoned on beer (which I believe is a possibility in one's tender

yeras),

they fight and forget it, they are forever piling into rickety cars and

driving

furiously to the far-away house of some unexpecting friend, where they

establish themselves for days. These practices, I admit, were not

unknown

on occasion to membersof that Lost Generation you may have heard about,

but

such was not their entire way of life; there are among the Lost

Generation

those who made fairly important contributions to their times. The Beat

Ones never have to be anywhere , never want to go anywhere except just

to

some other place"

Now, some can claim that Scott Fitzgerald has a better claim to be the

voice of the Lost Generation, but Dorothy was as alcoholic and srewed

up as the best of them (except she lived a lot longer). So I guess her

claim

here is that since the Beats made this a way of life and the Lost

Generation

didn't , they aren't the same.

What do you think?

In the film "Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle," the last monologue in

the film is DP talking about Jack and the Beats. She tells a couple of

reporters pretty much the same thing. Granted I've never read anything

by Mrs. Parker except for her poetry, but I think she distincted the

Lost Generation from the Beat Generation as level of values. The Beats

were predominately working class people whereas, DP and gang hung out in

New York hotels, tossing back martinis at speakeasys, and having dinner

at the Round Table in the Algonquin room with tuxedoed waiters. The

closest Beat I think that could muster this much ambiance is Burroughs.

The rest seem to be rebelling againist this system of just sitting and

talking. Her final criticism, that "The Beat Ones never have to be

anywhere , never want to go anywhere except just to some other place,"

is one againist life. As everyone's discussed before, the Beats were

merely out to LIVE. Parker just grew into an old and bitter lady.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:38:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Speaking of viruses . . .

Slightly off-topic, but compelling, nonetheless.

--------------------forwarded message-------------------

Subj: experiment (fwd)

Date: Fri, Dec 15, 1995 7:19 PM EST

From: atkinson@woodnet.wce.wwu.edu

X-From: atkinson@woodnet.wce.wwu.edu (Chuck Atkinson)

To: spedtalk@virginia.edu

As spedtalkers I thought you would be enthusiastic about helping this budding

scientist with his experiment.

>X-POP3-Rcpt: atkinson@woodnet

>Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:32:56 -0800

>X-Sender: pogreba@woodnet.wce.wwu.edu

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>To: lblack@cc.wwu.edu, atkinson@cc.wwu.edu, bkeiper@cc.wwu.edu,

> henniger@cc.wwu.edu

>From: Susan Pogreba-Lee <pogreba@woodnet.wce.wwu.edu>

>Subject: experiment (fwd)

>

>I don't know but as educators you may find this experiment interesting.

>Ignore most of the stuff and scroll down to the last part of the e-mail.

>This is really quite amazing!!!

>

>spl

>

>>X-POP3-Rcpt: pogreba@woodnet

>>Return-Path: kenn@wce.wwu.edu

>>Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:43:52 -0800 (PST)

>>From: Kenn Herman <kenn@wce.wwu.edu>

>>To: Bill Clinton <president@whitehouse.gov>,

>> Al Gore <vice-president@whitehouse.gov>,

>> Newt Gingrich <georgia6@hr.house.gov>

>>Subject: experiment (fwd)

>>

>>

>>i thought that the three most 'powerful' men in america should have

>>'contact' with this high school student's experiment. it brings tangible

>>concepts a little closer to home.

>>

>>read on to find out...

>>

>>kenn

>>

>>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>Date: 15 Dec 1995 10:15:26 -0800

>>From: Herman, Heidi <hermhx1@macgwx.ghc.org>

>>To: ATSUI@vax.clarku.edu, Barbara Eickhoff <eickhoff@u.washington.edu>,

>> "Blackwell, Justin" <blackwell.j@ghc.org>, boombooom@aol.com,

>> Brenda Bourns <bbourns@fred.fhcrc.org>,

>> Brian Black <a-brianb@microsoft.com>, cait <kmacinne@is.dal.ca>,

>> ceejay <ceejay@netcom.com>, cera <cera@helen.bush.edu>,

>> "Chapman, Janice" <chapman@mpe11.ghc.org>, CHECKERS@u.washington.edu,

>> Chris Park <box@cnw.com>, dao-liang chou <v-acdch@microsoft.com>,

>> eloise <DARTNSHC.NSHP.EIGRAVES@GOV.NS.CA>,

>> "heidi b." <hbroders@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,

>> "Heileson, Thomas" <heilts1@mpe11.ghc.org>,

>> jesaka <kisses@u.washington.edu>,

>> "Jordan, Erlande" <jordan@mpe11.ghc.org>,

>> ken of the ONE 'n' <kwombacher@banyan.inacom.com>,

>> "kenn (personal)" <kenn@wce.wwu.edu>, "linda w." <howked@iea.com>,

>> loredana <madamex@teleport.com>,

>> "Moontree, Elizabeth" <moontree@mpe11.ghc.org>, MuddlyMud@aol.com,

>> paul <ptindale@essa.com>, Rae & Teri <kaupe@netcom.com>,

>> "Salazar, Anthony" <salazar@mpe11.ghc.org>, stacey

<SShul90936@aol.com>,

>> terri <tereska@aol.com>, cloyfx1@macgwx.ghc.org,

greerl2@macgwx.ghc.org,

>> knutkx2@macgwx.ghc.org, needhx1@macgwx.ghc.org,

>> orozco#m#_dan@macgwx.ghc.org, purdmr1@macgwx.ghc.org,

>> ruffgs1@macgwx.ghc.org, sullsx2@macgwx.ghc.org

>>Subject: experiment (fwd)

>>

>>bear with all the b.s. at the beginning....just scroll through and read

ppl's

>>comments if you wish, but get to the msg. that's at the bottom to

understand

>>what 'all this' is about...

>>__________________________________________________________________________

>>_____

>>From: tinsky on Fri, Dec 15, 1995 09:56

>>Subject: (Fwd) FW: Forward (fwd)...experiment (fwd)

>>To: Herman, Heidi; JaniceH570@aol.com; Mark Ezovski (ART); Nevin Mercede

>>(ART); James Tinsky; Andrew Maz; singingd@ix.netcom.com; ChileJack@aol.com;

>>Greg Madison (ART)

>>

>>a brilliant experiment...get to the end to read the experiment

>>

>>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 19:32:14 -0500 (EST)

>>From: HHIERONYMUS@WELLESLEY.EDU

>>To: DYKENET-L

>>Subject: (Fwd) FW: Forward (fwd)...experiment

>>

>>

>>From: Catherine Wende <cwende@post.cis.smu.edu>

>>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) FW: Forward (fwd)

>>To: POLITIDYKES

>>Precedence: bulk

>>

>>

>>Read through this...it took me a while to hit the impact...be sure to

>>read to the end even though it gets long there is a point!

>>

>>Catherine

>>

>>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:52:27 CST

>>From: Carol Luedders <CLUEDDERS@SCS.ADMIN.IASTATE.EDU>

>>To: Multiple recipients of list LGBPSYCH <LGBPSYCH@VM1.MCGILL.CA>

>>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) FW: Forward

>>

>>Please go through to the end. This is a High School student's very

>>interesting and sobering way of proving a point.

>>(Now if only those "you too could make $100,000 in three months

>> if you sent two dollars to each person on this mailing list" things worked

>>this

>> well).

>>Carol

>>

>>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

>>From: "Jeanne Burkhart"

>>Organization: ISU Student Counseling Service

>>To: #SCS/COUNSELORS

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:30:31 CST

>>Subject: (Fwd) FW: Forward

>>

>>Please go through to the end.

>>

>>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

>>From: "Cychosz, Chuck" <ccychos@iastate.edu>

>>To: "Safaeinili, Lisa" <lisasaf@dops.adp.iastate.edu>,

>> "Dr. Dalen Duitsman" <dalen@iastate.edu>,

>> "'Frank Schabel'" <fschabel@iastate.edu>,

>> "'Jeanne Burkhart'" <jburkhart@scs.admin.iastate.edu>,

>> Martha Norton <MNORTON@scs.admin.iastate.edu>,

>> Susan Young <syoung@iastate.edu>

>>Subject: FW: Forward

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 10:25:00 CST

>> ----------

>>From: Robinson, Patricia

>>To: Cychosz, Chuck

>>Subject: FW: Forward

>>Date: Tuesday, December 12, 1995 10:00AM

>>

>>Read all the way to the bottom--an interesting way of proving a point!

>> ----------

>>From: Uhlenhake, Bev

>>To: Bessette, Jeanine; Rice, Dan; Whalen, Don; Kasi, Balsy; Andrew, Joelle;

>>Simpson, Jackie; Spahn, Joan; Bolluyt, Kat; JohnsonWilloughby, Kay-lynne;

>>Korte, Mary; Ellis-Besancon, Kerry; Tandia, Mary; Englin, Pete; Robinson,

>>Patricia; Johnson, Ruth; Deters, Sally; Akey, Torin; Smith, Victor; Arthur,

>>Virginia; Gruenewald, Doug; 'phil maggard'; udasenate

>>Subject: FW: Forward

>>Date: Tuesday, December 12, 1995 9:33AM

>>

>>sorry the computer gibberish is so long... please read.

>> ----------

>>From: Marva K Ruther

>>To: afenton; mtgallet; x1rankin; dlburri; lsusie; joce; carwes; bevu;

>>aryder; tcolen; kearnest; georjean; mapurdy; sschweit; msutton; tamscheu

>>Subject: Forward

>>Date: Tuesday, December 12, 1995 9:10AM

>>

>>The following was forwarded to me with a request to forward it on. Please

>>read through the computer stuff and read the end message.

>>

>> ------- Forwarded Message

>>

>>To: joppedal@iastate.edu, aschultz@iastate.edu, sweety@iastate.edu,

>> coolman@iastate.edu, mruther@iastate.edu,

>>SCHULTES@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU, SKAARJ@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU, ljass@iastate.edu

>>Subject: aids

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:05:15 CST

>>From: Heidi L Weiland <hweiland@iastate.edu>

>>

>> ------- Forwarded Message

>>

>>To: BARNETT@AC.GRIN.EDU, hweiland@iastate.edu, OLIVES2924@uni.edu,

>> jacobson@mmc.mtmercy.edu, bsuck@iastate.edu, tmace@iastate.edu,

>> drumisu@iastate.edu, cgates@iastate.edu, dlynne@iastate.edu,

>> cadypack@IMAP2.ASU.EDU, VANPATTEB@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU,

>> jjl11@cornell.edu, kermitj@iastate.edu, sbodeen@iastate.edu

>>Subject: n

>>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:19:09 CST

>>From: Jamie D Redman <jredman@iastate.edu>

>>

>> ------- Forwarded Message

>>Resent-from: "Holtan, Jason O" <HOLTANJ@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU>

>>Resent-to: PFanous@iastate.edu, HoltanA@MSOE.EDU,

>> Holtan@sendit.sendit.NODAK.edu, Kirkpatr@email.cc.purdue.edu,

>> TMenzel@iastate.edu, KMiller@iastate.edu,

>>Barrett_Randall@Baylor.edu,

>> JRedman@iastate.edu, ahreis@students.wisc.edu (Anne Reis),

>> DSqui279@aol.com, BaileyJ@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU,

>> "SAL311/DURRS"@insosf1.netins.net,

>>"THOR/EICKHOFFA"@insosf1.netins.net,

>> ellisj@thor.waldorf.edu

>>Resent-date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:33:54 -0600

>>Sender: rleighb@pop

>>Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:18:48 -0500

>>To: harri_ma@students.uwlax.edu, bad@maclaw.law.cuny.edu, jolly@stolaf.edu,

>> rebecca-chacko@uiowa.edu, CDark@comp.UArk.edu,

>>df0012@acad.drake.edu,

>> schafer@stolaf.edu, bennettj@central.edu,

>>holtanj@SAL311.WALDORF.EDU,

>> scraig@iastate.edu, cgelina@iastate.edu, skaurs@iastate.edu,

>> jlathrop@iastate.edu, harri_ma@students.uwlax.edu,

jolly@stolaf.edu,

>> kplace@iastate.edu, rebecca-chacko@uiowa.edu

>>From: rleighb@iastate.edu

>>Subject: not that i want all of you to have this, but have fun infecting

>>people ;)

>>

>>hey, hope all who have finals are studying like the wind, and all those yet

>>to suffer start building pain resistance now. please follow this forward,

>>it proves a very scary, but true point in a nonfatal way. maybe we can all

>>learn from it. so please pass it on and don't delete!

>>love ya lots, robyn

>>

>>>Sender: tkoopman@pop-3.iastate.edu

>>>Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:51:19 -0600

>>>To: jdt@iastate.edu, mfalk@iastate.edu, rgonsior@iastate.edu,

>>bhogendo@iastate.edu, dkiefer@iastate.edu, mmoss@iastate.edu,

>>htakade@iastate.edu, debbie@iastate.edu, ebilotta@iastate.edu,

>>cbatey@iastate.edu, miranda@iastate.edu, jacobmcc@iastate.edu, k

>>>From: tkoopman@iastate.edu

>>>Subject: not that i want all of you to have this, but have fun infecting

>>people ;)

>>>

>>>>From: JS0103@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

>>>>Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:55:06 -0500 (CDT)

>>>>Subject: not that i want all of you to have this, but have fun infecting

>>people ;)

>>>>To: pb0027@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, tkoopman@iastate.edu, dvampire@iastate.edu,

>>richlieu@iastate.edu, javelin@iastate.edu

>>>>Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 18:03:53 CDT

>>>>From: "N.I. Johnson" <NIJ001%ACAD@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

>>>>Subject: this was sent to me...

>>>>

>>>>From: IN%"JLT009@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU" 9-DEC-1995 21:38:58.91

>>>>To: IN%"tab002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU", IN%"bab028@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU",

>>IN%"efh002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU", IN%"jrb006@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU",

>>IN%"blf001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU", IN%"btk003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU",

>>IN%"cdb005@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU", IN%"klb026@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU",

>>IN%"cjw008@ACAD.DRAKE.

>>>>CC:

>>>>Subj: AIDS project

>>>>

>>>>Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 21:38:31 -0500 (CDT)

>>>>From: JLT009@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

>>>>Subject: AIDS project

>>>>To: tab002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, bab028@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, efh002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> jrb006@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, blf001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, btk003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> cdb005@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, klb026@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, cjw008@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> mjh030@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, kmb012@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, def003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> mma004@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, cmj005@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, ams026@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> arw003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, fam003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, mrd002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> nij001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, jlt009@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, jms047@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> nrj001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, alc011@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, dd0028@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> jg0044@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, ca0009@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, gsw001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> jmh037@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, jlh039@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, kes007@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU,

>>>> kce003@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, gh0010@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:16:30 CDT

>>>>From: JWS006%ACAD@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

>>>>Subject: aids forwarded

>>>>To: TLB013@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

>>>>

>>>>From: IN%"lferris@indiana.edu" "laura elizabeth ferris" 7-DEC-1995

>>17:51:04.38

>>>>To: IN%"gollan@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu",

IN%"mgranado@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu",

>>IN%"JWS006@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU", IN%"mariegeo@aol.com", IN%"jbpettit@indiana",

>>IN%"jmessmer@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu", IN%"jaimee@falcon.cc.ukans.edu",

>>IN%"n-kuhn@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu", IN

>>>>CC:

>>>>Subj: aids (fwd)

>>>>

>>

>>>>Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 18:50:56 -0500 (EST)

>>>>From: laura elizabeth ferris <lferris@indiana.edu>

>>>>Subject: aids (fwd)

>>>>X-Sender: lferris@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu

>>>>To: gollan@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu, mgranado@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu,

>>>> JWS006@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU, mariegeo@aol.com, jbpettit@indiana,

>>>> jmessmer@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu, jaimee@falcon.cc.ukans.edu,

>>>> n-kuhn@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu, ann elizabeth mellish <u27541@uicvm.uic.edu>

>>

>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:43:02 -0500 (EST)

>>>>From: jenna catherine murphy <jcmurphy@indiana.edu>

>>>>Cc: lferris@ophelia.ucs.indiana.edu

>>>>Subject: aids (fwd)

>>>>

>>>>This is from one of my HS friends in Connecticut, so pass it to everyone

>>>>you know!

>>>>

>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 16:45:24 EWT

>>>>From: KEESLER <bekessle@mailbox.syr.edu>

>>>>To: jcmurphy@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu

>>>>Subject: aids

>>>>

>>>>For a class project, I was wondering if this could be passed on to prove

>>>>a point. In my human sex class, we learned that if someone has received

>>>>the HIV disease, and they don't know about it, they could pass it on to

>>>>people who they don't even know.

>>>> Could you all pretend that I have HIV, and I gave it to you.

>>>>Then could you pass it on to your friends? Let's see if the entire

>>>>e-mail population could get infected by me alone.

>>>> Please remember that this is a lab experiment. I have to say

>>>>that I am not intending to offend any one in any way.

>>>> By the way, don't erase this or the forwards from your computer.

>>>>

>>>> Thankyou

>>>>Young bradley

>>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:31:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: beat jokes beaten down

This is just to say

that I have read the jokes

that you posted on BEAT-L

and I have laughed at them

They were so cool

so sweet

yes

they were beat

too bad someone said

they didn't fit

in this ice box

on the internet

Bill (William) not WCW

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:07:29 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Forwarded mail....

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:03:54 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Cc: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

politically correct xmas

saint klaus, nicklaus = niko-leos ("conqueror of the people") in greek

st. close (inner sanctum, instant sanka) = st. claws

plastered against sky on insect-antennaed rooftops across Am-ri-ka

pussy-footed fat honky in rubber boots descends smokeless chimneys

while tiny pink cocks poke forth timid heads from stocking tops

and high-voltage-pulsing green tree opens budding cones to infinity

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:31:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Weintraub <scottw@WAM.UMD.EDU>

Subject: What to do in Lowell?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.951219120715.10246F-100000@sun3>

My friends and I are going on a little road-trip over Christmas break.

Our main stop is going to be Lowell where we all wanted to check out

Kerouac's grave. I know a few of you have been to Lowell (The Kerouac

Convention, etc.) so could you tell me, exactly, where Jack's grave is

and are there any other Kerouac-related sites that we should see while

we're there?

*****************************************************************************

* Scott Weintraub - scottw@wam.umd.edu - College Park, Maryland *

*****************************************************************************

* "The bounties of space, of infinite outwardness, were three: empty *

* heroics, low comedy, and pointless death." -Kurt Vonnegut *

*****************************************************************************

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:53:52 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

Comments: cc: jesse fleming <fleming@mail.tku.edu.tw>

The "ONE WAY" to experience NYC, MAN: late (2-4 am) wandering around Times

Square--Greyound Bus Station area, taking in the mildly violent vibes and

talking to whichever black prostitutes want to talk (I did this during my

1 golden month back in the "land of the free" in august, by the way)

about how things have "gotten much more tense and violent" in this area

of nyc, late at night.....(but only talking, of course), and only THEN

hitting one of those amazing pulsating-with-energy late-nite bars where

men/women and black/white/jewish/whatever talk and laugh with wondrous

freedom and openness and the vibes are (after all) very good indeed.....

(as only then has one, in a sense, earned this pavlovian reward)....

fws

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:14:58 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Generational Cycles

In-Reply-To: <951126222753_34875820@emout05.mail.aol.com>

ok, thanks--esp. for clarification of the "x which marks the spot." fws

On Sun, 26 Nov 1995, Rita T. Friedman wrote:

> >>ok, i see...if the front end of boomers was (being born in) '45 or so,

> when was the back end? (also, what does the "x" in "generation x" mean?)

> fws, taipei

> >>

>

> the end of the "boomers" generation, as I understand it, is just like any of

> the parameters of "generation x." That is to say, no-one bothered to define

> it well. Boomers had hippies, so figure therefore anyone who had a child

> after the hippy-era isn't a boomer.

> Generation X is becoming an extinict term. I recently went to a debate

> entitled "generation X's Apathy Is Ruining America" where everyone there felt

> against that statement and it was cancelled. The X is supposed to signify

> the lack of identity, the non-committed to a cause, the un-whatevered-ness of

> it all.

> I thought that at one point there was an actual defining age of generation X,

> but it seems that people either adjust the borders to BE A PART OF It or to

> be TOTALLY EXCLUDED FROM IT.

> Anyway, the Coupland book was wonderful.

> ;-/

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:07:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: sf chronical--thanks

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help on the San Francisco Ch

ronicle articles on the Beats. Mission accomplished!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:43:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

One landmark of (rapidly changing) Times Square from the late fourties is the

Howard Johnsons (a disappearing breed) (around Broadway and 44th) where Edie

Parker met Jack and ate six hot dogs. Times Square still has a seedy,

slightly scarey, some might say "beat" feel but I find the East Villege and

Alphabet city a lot more interesting these days. I'd say that the ghosts

have migrated to, say, St. Marks Place at Ave. B. For the record, St. Marks

Place has also been kinda cleaned up from a few years ago, as has Tompkins

Square Park.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:41:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whatuv@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus ALERT !!!!!!!!!!!!...

Comments: To: Elder#m#_Bo@msgate.apple.com, bastein@imap2.asu.edu,

BoomShenka@aol.com, creeps@pipeline.com, jgold@instinet.com,

Ganyard#m#_Joye@msgate.apple.com

Comments: cc: cooling@students.BITNET, ZMDJ65A@prodigy.com

Ha!

an obvious attempt to bait me, well it won't work!

or, perhaps it already has....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:21:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Christmas with Kerouac

Although I'm well into my reading of _On the Road_ I don't think it's the

right time for a long-winded serious analysis of the

postmodern/revolutionary/existentialist implications of this and other Beat

texts. Rather, I offer another approach -- partically in response to the

recent (and I guess absent) poster who bemoaned the self-seriousness of the

list. I offer it with no apologies to JK nor to anyone else but to say that

imitation is the highest form of flattery and that satire is the highest --

perhaps lowest -- form of imitation.

Christmas with Kerouac: On The Road to Bankruptcy

We rolled outa the Volvo all raggedy like and itchy from the

leather seats -- it was a real gone and sad Volvo, one of the

front heater seats was barely working and the speakers had a real

ethereal, far-away quality about them like two mad, gone monks

humming some wild surreal tune to one another on some mountain

road in some other time zone where people don't floss their teeth

or might not even brush. We ambled all melancholy and flatulent

from the Volvo to the entrance of the mall -- I swear it was the

wildest mall entrance I'd ever seen in all my days -- it had

automatic doors that opened and closed, opened and closed, opened

and closed and we jumped on and off the little rubber mat causing

the doors to open and close, open and close, open and close -- it

was wild, and incredible and somehow sad. When we finally got

into the mall and into the flow of all the crazed shoppers with

visions and decisions, higgilly-biggilly here, there, and

everywhere in some lunatic rush and binge like the pioneers in

their conasomethingorother wagons bursting forth upon the

continent, flowing out and about around and down, bouncing

banging, head-clanging, belly-wangling, caterwauling and

cavetching in some Holy arbitrary labyrinth of confusion,

congestion and general mayhem. Then I saw the wildest dudes I

have ever seen in my life -- in their large, EXTREMELY large

pants. I mean these pants were BIG. A family of Mexican grape

pickers could live in these pants -- and did. I said to myself

these big, wild pants are so American, so wild and free -- they

were big freedom pants billowing with mad free souls, sailing

pants filled with the wind of broken dreams or dreams that broke

wind in the wild, incredibly big-panted life. We followed the

dudes into the crowds of touristas clutching their pocket books

and children like great, fat, sweaty, bloated, bourgeois

shoppers, which of course they were. We were moving among them

like manic, abstract ghost crabs weaving wild and intricate

patterns across the faux marble floors. When suddenly we came

upon the most gone and wild and sad Santa I swear I had ever seen

before or since. His laugh was the most soulful and lugubrious

instrument of pain to have ever sprung itself on this mad vortex

of stars and circumstance I like to call life. I sat on his lap

-- tears streaming down my cheeks and he looked into my eyes and

said something so deep and real like -- son you're cutting off

the circulation to my legs -- that I cried even more. And then

suddenly we were off again caught up in the great flow of

humanity, the great ebb tide of human consumption and

constipation. We found ourselves inside a great store. A great,

wonderful American store that held all my futures -- all my

dreams in one great and good merchandizing extravaganza. I felt

like a homeward-looking angel: furtive and drunk with possibility

in this materialistic Mecca. Quite suddenly I looked up and saw

her -- she was dressed as an elf with curling little shoes and

belled toes and all -- I followed her like the mad-sad puppy-soul

that I am -- followed to her place of work -- a body piercing

parlor. She was half Mexican/ half Irish with one green eye, one

brown. She was a wild walking advertisement for body piercing:

pierced ears, pierced nose, pierced tongue, pierced navel,

pierced nipples, pierced pancreas, pierced cerebellum, pierced

soul -- I loved her immediate and deep. After three hours of

wild conversation over cappucino we had ourselves surgically

connected with one great body ring the size of a hula-hoop. We

moved like we were in a perpetual sack race -- life's great

perpetual sack race, hopping and sweating and stumbling and

giggling all over the place in a mad rush for the finish line of

love. And I loved her with all my soul -- ol' what's-her-name.

When we went our own ways I was hurt deeply -- I mean REALLY hurt

-- I awoke in an alien hospital bed several days later not

knowing who I was, or even what species I was -- that's how

alienated and beat I felt -- not knowing what species I was I

tried wearing the bed pan as a hat -- the used bed pan -- then I

could have kicked myself I was so wet and ridiculous lying in

that hospital bed like a crazy, gone, mad paramecium in somebody's

petri dish. Then I looked up in the moment of my greatest despair

and who should be there but that same gone Santa from before --

the same bearded Buddha soul that was my salvation and I called

out to him -- Hey bearded Buddha man! Hey great red mantra-man!

and he turned and I swear this is true -- he blew the greatest

sad and mournful riffs I have ever heard then or since from a sax

he had in his big red sack -- it was a sad sack sax and he blew

it to the max, and I heard him exclaim as he blew out o' sight --

Merry X-Mas to all and to all a gone night!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ONE AND ALL

Perry M. Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:46:34 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Christmas with Kerouac

>We rolled outa the Volvo all raggedy like and itchy from the

>leather seats -- it was a real gone and sad Volvo, one of the

>front heater seats was barely working and the speakers had a real

>ethereal, far-away quality about them like two mad, gone monks

>humming some wild surreal tune to one another on some mountain

>road in some other time zone where people don't floss their teeth

>or might not even brush. We ambled all melancholy and flatulent

>from the Volvo to the entrance of the mall -- I swear it was the

>wildest mall entrance I'd ever seen in all my days -- it had

>automatic doors that opened and closed, opened and closed, opened

>and closed and we jumped on and off the little rubber mat causing

>the doors to open and close, open and close, open and close -- it

>was wild, and incredible and somehow sad. When we finally got

>into the mall and into the flow of all the crazed shoppers with

>visions and decisions, higgilly-biggilly here, there, and

>everywhere in some lunatic rush and binge like the pioneers in

>their conasomethingorother wagons bursting forth upon the

>continent, flowing out and about around and down, bouncing

>banging, head-clanging, belly-wangling, caterwauling and

>cavetching in some Holy arbitrary labyrinth of confusion,

>congestion and general mayhem. Then I saw the wildest dudes I

>have ever seen in my life -- in their large, EXTREMELY large

>pants. I mean these pants were BIG. A family of Mexican grape

>pickers could live in these pants -- and did. I said to myself

>these big, wild pants are so American, so wild and free -- they

>were big freedom pants billowing with mad free souls, sailing

>pants filled with the wind of broken dreams or dreams that broke

>wind in the wild, incredibly big-panted life. We followed the

>dudes into the crowds of touristas clutching their pocket books

>and children like great, fat, sweaty, bloated, bourgeois

>shoppers, which of course they were. We were moving among them

>like manic, abstract ghost crabs weaving wild and intricate

>patterns across the faux marble floors. When suddenly we came

>upon the most gone and wild and sad Santa I swear I had ever seen

>before or since. His laugh was the most soulful and lugubrious

>instrument of pain to have ever sprung itself on this mad vortex

>of stars and circumstance I like to call life. I sat on his lap

>-- tears streaming down my cheeks and he looked into my eyes and

>said something so deep and real like -- son you're cutting off

>the circulation to my legs -- that I cried even more. And then

>suddenly we were off again caught up in the great flow of

>humanity, the great ebb tide of human consumption and

>constipation. We found ourselves inside a great store. A great,

>wonderful American store that held all my futures -- all my

>dreams in one great and good merchandizing extravaganza. I felt

>like a homeward-looking angel: furtive and drunk with possibility

>in this materialistic Mecca. Quite suddenly I looked up and saw

>her -- she was dressed as an elf with curling little shoes and

>belled toes and all -- I followed her like the mad-sad puppy-soul

>that I am -- followed to her place of work -- a body piercing

>parlor. She was half Mexican/ half Irish with one green eye, one

>brown. She was a wild walking advertisement for body piercing:

>pierced ears, pierced nose, pierced tongue, pierced navel,

>pierced nipples, pierced pancreas, pierced cerebellum, pierced

>soul -- I loved her immediate and deep. After three hours of

>wild conversation over cappucino we had ourselves surgically

>connected with one great body ring the size of a hula-hoop. We

>moved like we were in a perpetual sack race -- life's great

>perpetual sack race, hopping and sweating and stumbling and

>giggling all over the place in a mad rush for the finish line of

>love. And I loved her with all my soul -- ol' what's-her-name.

>When we went our own ways I was hurt deeply -- I mean REALLY hurt

>-- I awoke in an alien hospital bed several days later not

>knowing who I was, or even what species I was -- that's how

>alienated and beat I felt -- not knowing what species I was I

>tried wearing the bed pan as a hat -- the used bed pan -- then I

>could have kicked myself I was so wet and ridiculous lying in

>that hospital bed like a crazy, gone, mad paramecium in somebody's

>petri dish. Then I looked up in the moment of my greatest despair

>and who should be there but that same gone Santa from before --

>the same bearded Buddha soul that was my salvation and I called

>out to him -- Hey bearded Buddha man! Hey great red mantra-man!

>and he turned and I swear this is true -- he blew the greatest

>sad and mournful riffs I have ever heard then or since from a sax

>he had in his big red sack -- it was a sad sack sax and he blew

>it to the max, and I heard him exclaim as he blew out o' sight --

>Merry X-Mas to all and to all a gone night!

>

>HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ONE AND ALL

>

>Perry M. Lindstrom

>

>

That's so funny because the same thing happened to me yesterday.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:00:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Christmas with Kerouac

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ONE AND ALL

>

>Perry M. Lindstrom

Sorry not to be ABLE to ask this personally, but I have a journal

that I keep on my internet coffeehouse that amuses people with

good conversation once in a while. Would it be acceptable to

use this? It's small and only read by a few hundred every day,

so the traffic isn't quite the internet-ted capacity of, oh, say Yahoo.

Mail me personally so that I don't get marked for off-posting.

Thanks, Critter

[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM]

ps.

Corduroy's Coffeehouse <http://metro.turnpike.net/C/Critter/index.html>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:59:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Beats&Xers

Recently Frank Stevenson wrote:

"The X is supposed to signify the lack of identity, the non-commited to a

cause, the un-whatevered-ness of it all."

The intersection of the Beats with generation X is an interesting one.

Both sub-generations were demographically challenged -- I was born in 73,

which I believe had one of the lowest birth rates in this century. Each

group has of course experienced it's own type of socialization, thus one

must be careful with the creation of analogizes. With that warning said

and heeded, I feel comfortable in saying that each groups lack of influence

-- during their own time most of the beats were ridiculed by the power

elite -- steams from there lack of size.

The Beats used the boomer generation as a sounding board to vent there

frustration over their society. The Hippies took some of the beats ideas,

mostly the bacchanal, and put them into a mass culture. When the Hippies'

generation did make news, wether it be though demonstrations or getting

jobs in the media, they carried their own audience, in fact the

constituted their own audience. Thus the idea of the beats, presented by

the powerless beats, got little attention; but, when the larger

sub-generation that followed the beats, expressed beat ideas, they got

attention.

I feel as though the beats realized that their influence on society, in

there own time, was going to be small. Woody Allen and others comics, as

well as other media, of the time did poke fun at them in forums like the

SId Ceaser show. It was is ridicule, for lack of a better word, that

reinforced the feelings of alienation which was an engine for their work.

Generation X, which is also wedged in between two large generations, one

of which happens to be the Hippies again, also has these feelings of

powerlessness. Will us Xers be able to use those feelings of alienation to

create, as the beats did, or will we buy the apathetic label? The worst

possible out come would be Xers recreating, as the Hippies did, the Beat

generation. That is not to say that I can't enjoy what the beats have

given us, I just would like to get beyond them.

Damien Zillas

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:43:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tsaelinah <serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: Christmas with Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <951219202135_94841096@emout04.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Perry Lindstrom wrote:

Might i just say one word....

HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Argh, that was great. Happy xmas to you too. =)

Tsaelinah

(in a jar)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:33:41 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

In-Reply-To: <951219154339_94607954@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Of course, any of us would more likely associate Greenwich or East

Village or generally lower Manhattan with the beats--though K and G were

also at Columbia, and G talks about his Blake "vision" in a Harlem apt.

in 1949 or so--rather than Times Square, that haven of seediness, cheap

commercialization, prostitutes and TOURISTOS. I just was thinking that for

this very reason it also catches something of G's "Molloch" and his self-

parodic mode in "Howl." fws

On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Howard Park wrote:

> One landmark of (rapidly changing) Times Square from the late fourties is the

> Howard Johnsons (a disappearing breed) (around Broadway and 44th) where Edie

> Parker met Jack and ate six hot dogs. Times Square still has a seedy,

> slightly scarey, some might say "beat" feel but I find the East Villege and

> Alphabet city a lot more interesting these days. I'd say that the ghosts

> have migrated to, say, St. Marks Place at Ave. B. For the record, St. Marks

> Place has also been kinda cleaned up from a few years ago, as has Tompkins

> Square Park.

>

> Howard Park

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:15:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>The "ONE WAY" to experience NYC, MAN: late (2-4 am) wandering around Times

>Square--Greyound Bus Station area, taking in the mildly violent vibes and

>talking to whichever black prostitutes want to talk (I did this during my

>1 golden month back in the "land of the free" in august, by the way)

>about how things have "gotten much more tense and violent" in this area

>of nyc, late at night.....(but only talking, of course), and only THEN

>hitting one of those amazing pulsating-with-energy late-nite bars where

>men/women and black/white/jewish/whatever talk and laugh with wondrous

>freedom and openness and the vibes are (after all) very good indeed.....

>(as only then has one, in a sense, earned this pavlovian reward)....

>

> fws

Was it simply me or did this seem amazingly poetic? With a little reworking

on the format I'd say you've got a hard poem here..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:43:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: ccook <ccook@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Hello?

I've not recieved anything from this list in weeks and am wondering if I

somehow got unsubscribed......Sorry if this is unnecesary clutter in

anyone's mailbox.

Chuck C

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:22:02 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello?

>I've not recieved anything from this list in weeks and am wondering if I

>somehow got unsubscribed......Sorry if this is unnecesary clutter in

>anyone's mailbox.

>

>Chuck C

It has been low volume. The same thought crossed my mind.

If you get this, you are not unsubscribed.

I appreciate the low volume in a way.

Here is a note. I put up two new sounds of kerouac reading a while ago. I

don't think i announced this here. The new sounds are Kerouac singing and

kerouac reading from Neal and the Three Stooges. They are .au files

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

And

Anyone see the Jack Kerouac CD Romnibus in stores???? I haven't.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:44:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: ???

Anybody there? Has the list died? Email me directly.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 07:58:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Arno Selhorst <uzs405@IBM.RHRZ.UNI-BONN.DE>

Subject: Re: ???

At 00:44 29.12.1995 -0500, you wrote:

>Anybody there? Has the list died? Email me directly.

Hi,

I don=B4t think the list died, it=B4s just that everyone is either on=

vacation

over the year or visiting friends and family.

BTW, Timothy, I downloaded some of your Kerouac files. Thx a lot for putting

up the URL for us here on the list!=20

A happy new year to all of you...

Arno Selhorst, Germany, Bonn

KaeseKaeseundnochmalKaese!!! =3D)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:11:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ???

Actually...

we're alive and well and spending time in reading and contemplation..

I'ts Xmas break; who feels like getting into a discourse? I'd rather drink

beer and rent a good flick for now.

Peace,love, and Bobby Sherman,

Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:30:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dixie Parsons <Pugsinc@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ???

I've just subscribed to this list, but I've gotten all of this mail, so it

must be active... be talking to you all later.

Mic

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:01:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ???

Only mail I'm getting are the queries about the list; did get some pieces

about a week ago. Assumed everyone was doing holiday things as the traffic

dropped off abruptly right around Xmas.

I think the heavy volume in the past month, very spirited discussions, etc.

may make the current hiatus seem more bizarre than might otherwise be the

case.

Luther Jett

P.S. Happy New Year to all!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 07:59:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Debra Keith <SEDHIRA@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hello?

Kerouac Romnibus is available from Water Row Books for $49.95.

E-mail Waterrow@AOL.com

Snail mail PO Box 438, Sudbury MA 01776

Phone 508-485-8515

Great catalogue available for the asking!

Debbie Keith

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:51:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: beat jokes beaten down

I have heard about and read a little about the current exhibit at the

Whitney Museum in New York. Has this exhibit been discussed by fellows

on the net? What is of particular interest? What special performances

have been included, who has seen them, and what reports can be given?

I've ordered the catalog from the museum and have a standing order for

the CD-ROM. I hope that I have made the right choice in getting these

items. I would like to fly into New York and see the actual exhibit, but

time and $ weigh on my mind and wallet, making me choose the lest costly,

more ordinary alternatives.

So let me know. Who has seen the show? Whither goest thou, Whitney, in thy

shiny black car in the night?

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:16:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Birth of the Beat Generation

Today's Washington Post carries a very favourable review of a new book, "The

Birth of the Beat Generation: Visionaries, Rebels, and Hipsters 1844-1960",

by Steven Watson (Pantheon). I quote, in part, from the review:

"An elegant coffee-table book, 'The Birth of the Beat Generation' juxtaposes

arresting, seldom-seen photographs with a lively, engaging, bare-bones

narrative. It also juxtaposes maps both geographic and interrelational with

assorted marginalia: quips, booklists and beat argot. . . . Not since

Lawrence Lipson's 'Holy Barbarians' of 1959 has there been a book of the Beat

experience whole, even though various biographies have in varying degree

mined the details. . . . Oddly, what is wanting, a true assessment, does not

diminish this book's achievement . . . ."

So, has anyone seen the book? How accurate is the reviewer's assessment?

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 11:37:24 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

In-Reply-To: <951231201656_81734192@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "W. Luther

Jett" at Dec 31, 95 08:16:56 pm

> Today's Washington Post carries a very favourable review of a new book, "The

> Birth of the Beat Generation: Visionaries, Rebels, and Hipsters 1844-1960",

> by Steven Watson (Pantheon). I quote, in part, from the review:

>

> "An elegant coffee-table book, 'The Birth of the Beat Generation' juxtaposes

> arresting, seldom-seen photographs with a lively, engaging, bare-bones

> narrative. It also juxtaposes maps both geographic and interrelational with

> assorted marginalia: quips, booklists and beat argot. . . . Not since

> Lawrence Lipson's 'Holy Barbarians' of 1959 has there been a book of the Beat

> experience whole, even though various biographies have in varying degree

> mined the details. . . . Oddly, what is wanting, a true assessment, does not

> diminish this book's achievement . . . ."

>

> So, has anyone seen the book? How accurate is the reviewer's assessment?

I pretty much agree. The book is very nicely designed and has a lot of

illustrations. The text seems accurate. More of a sense of spontaneity and

random connections than in other, more traditional books of this type.

One thing I haven't seen yet is Voyager's new Beat Experience CD-Rom, or

whatever it's called. Not the Kerouac one (from Viking) but the one that

ties into the Whitney exhibit (I think). Any reports on it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some people like to go out dancing,

but other people like us, they gotta work

And there's even some evil mothers

who'll tell you life is just made out of dirt

That women never really faint

that villains always blink their eyes

That children are the only ones who blush

and that life is just a dive"

-- Velvet Underground, "Sweet Jane"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:41:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

The reviewer, Regina Weinreich, is a real beat fan and author of "The

Spontanious Prose of Jack Kerouac", so it's not surprising that she wrote a

favorable review of the "Brith of the Beat Generation." I don't mean to

discount it. It's an excellent book. Part group biography, part scrapbook.

It's more than a "coffeetable book".

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:41:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Whitney Show

I wrote a sort of review of thw Whitney show awhile back. I enjoyed and was

captivated by it, but I don't think I would make a special trip to New York

for it alone. It will travel to Minneapolis and San Francisco later this

year. The highlight of the show for me was the original rolled up manuscript

of On The Road and the Dharma Bums.

H. Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:08:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 30 Dec 1995 to 31 Dec 1995

Have just got back from a week in NYC with 2500 philosophers, and got to see

the Whitney exhibit. For me, there was some great stuff there - a lot of

JK's original artwork, the teletype roll of OTR, a bunch of his notebooks,

sketchpads etc, and a lot of photos of NYC and Beats around there, including

quite a few I'd never seen in books. I can see why the art critics were down

on the exhibit though, because the link between the big pieces on display

and the Beats seemed tentative to say the least, i.e. the Jackson Pollock

painting and some of the other art - nice stuff in its own right (most of

it) but out of kilter with the rest of the exhibit. Still, there was so much

of the real thing there I didn't mind. A most interesting video on show

(plus for sale, a copy of which I got) with all sorts of

JK/Ginsberg/Burroughs clips, weird art montages and some really cool jazz

from the period with Miles and Coltrane and so on. And a great audio track

which you could listen to at the exhibit (but I couldn't see for sale) with

readings, jazz, etc.

So I think you have to be a True Fan, but then I guess most all of us on

this list are ... it was well worth the trip and the $$$ to see the artefacts.

N W-W

>

>I have heard about and read a little about the current exhibit at the

>Whitney Museum in New York. Has this exhibit been discussed by fellows

>on the net? What is of particular interest? What special performances

>have been included, who has seen them, and what reports can be given?

>

>I've ordered the catalog from the museum and have a standing order for

>the CD-ROM. I hope that I have made the right choice in getting these

>items. I would like to fly into New York and see the actual exhibit, but

>time and $ weigh on my mind and wallet, making me choose the lest costly,

>more ordinary alternatives.

>

>So let me know. Who has seen the show? Whither goest thou, Whitney, in thy

>shiny black car in the night?

>

>

>

>

>

>Bill of the North Woods

>

>------------------------------

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:56:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

>The reviewer, Regina Weinreich, is a real beat fan and author of "The

>Spontanious Prose of Jack Kerouac", so it's not surprising that she wrote a

>favorable review of the "Brith of the Beat Generation." I don't mean to

>discount it. It's an excellent book. Part group biography, part scrapbook.

> It's more than a "coffeetable book".

>

>Howard Park

The book is actually called

The Spontaneous Poetics of Jack Kerouac. Poetics, not prose--I say this

only if someone goes out looking for it and tries to order it at a

bookstore or something.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:10:50 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

Hi Everybody and HAPPY NEW YEAR. I've seen *Birth of the BG* in the bookstores

and was first of all struck by the similarity in layout to *Generation X*. I

notice that Herbert Huncke is deemd an "icon" as is Ginsberg's buddy from the

mental hospital, Carl Solomon. To me these guys are minor characters and the

real icons are Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Cassady. Quibble, quibble. I

still would like a copy of the book but at $27.50 I'll have to wait. I did

receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm happy

with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

Best to you all.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:10:50 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

Hi Everybody and HAPPY NEW YEAR. I've seen *Birth of the BG* in the bookstores

and was first of all struck by the similarity in layout to *Generation X*. I

notice that Herbert Huncke is deemd an "icon" as is Ginsberg's buddy from the

mental hospital, Carl Solomon. To me these guys are minor characters and the

real icons are Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Cassady. Quibble, quibble. I

still would like a copy of the book but at $27.50 I'll have to wait. I did

receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm happy

with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

Best to you all.

Dan B.

P.S. I think Regina Weinreich's book is very worthwhile. She was quite

prescient in her Introduction, c. 1987, in saying "there's a Kerouac industry

out there."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:29:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:16:56 -0500 from

<MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Watson's book is interesting, particularly in terms of its novative

design. He makes good use of the margins for notes, photos, and

quotations. I wrote a review for Library Journal, which I haven't yet

seen in print. There's an interesting review in the November 1

Booklist, p. 449. Watson also did part of the Whitney catalog and is

scheduled to speak, I believe, at a conference at the New School for

Social Research in New York City. Details are in the Whitney monthly

calendar which I haven't got with me at this time.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:02:31 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <9512031818.AA14023@cabell.VCU.EDU>

I heard/saw ginsberg and his "wife" orlovsky read at haverford college

in 1965 or '66--pretty crazy, very radical, advocating free sex and drugs

and attacking govt's stand on vietnam war, etc.....paul breslin in

"psycho-political muse" claims ginsberg and other voices of "new american

poetry" of late 50's/60's (including levertov, olson, wright) are not

original at all but mouthing the cultural discourse of early 50's

"conformity criticism" and neo-freudianism (including marcuse, laing et

al) with background in marx, nietzsche, existentialism and (well,

yes) FREUD, the BIG mr. brainwash for me as little kid in 50's)....THEN i

heard leroi jones (= now BARAKA, right?) read at tuskegee institute, alabama

where i taught english in 1969 and him say to the largely black audience

(me and a few other instructors being paranoid white "honkeys from new york"):

"WE WANT BLACK POWER....don't let these honkeys from new york brainwash you

with their crap about sick existentialist jews from vianna"....

(his exact words i think).....hmmm, food for thought here.....fws

(but i still can dig jones/baraka's "preface to a 20-vol. suicide note")

On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Kirsten A. Hirsch wrote:

> I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

> think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

> that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

> American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

> (which he did) in the 1950's.

>

> I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

> was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

> very disappointing.

>

> Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:15:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960102233822.6308B-100000@ccshst08.cs.uoguelph.ca>

I've been having a rough time trying to find information regarding the

naropa institute & the school of poetics (the former of which I

understand is part of the latter): there is nominally a page for the

institute, but it has absolutely nothing on it other than a link to a

journal from '94 regarding a visit to a gathering at the school. I'm

very curious about this school: if anyone knows how I can find out all

about it, help would be much appreciated.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Reeve at

da PEAK email: peak@uoguelph.ca

Guelph's Student Magazine phone: (519)824-4120 x8522

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:06:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: Christmas gifts

My family was very kind this year. I got the CDRomnibus (which was special

ordered from Olson Books in Washington DC) and the Beat Generation cds from

Rhino.

I've had fun with the Romnibus. Wish there was more video and sound. Some of

the "video" attached to readings is simply a still image and that is a bit of

a let down. If they were going to do something, they should have had clips

from PULL MY DAISY etc.

THe Rhino cds are interesting. Understanding the difference between BEAT and

BEATNIK is important though. If you do, it's very entertaining.

Whoever suggested writing to Waterow Books, I did and they sent me a great

catalog. Apparently, sometime this year there will be a Beat Generation CD-

ROM similar to the Kerouac one available through Waterow (and other sources I

am sure).

-Kirsten Hirsch

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:21:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

I don't defend Baraka. I do respect him. Every man's life is his own, if he

wants to reject part of it, its his to do. "Believe it if you need it, if

you don't then pass it on."

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:54:46 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Christmas gifts

>THe Rhino cds are interesting. Understanding the difference between BEAT and

>BEATNIK is important though. If you do, it's very entertaining.

>

What do you mean here, Kirsten? Why do the Rhino CD's elicit this comment?

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:47:59 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Rhino CD's

Comments: To: Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@comnet.usc.vcu.edu

At 01:50 PM 1/3/96 EST, you wrote:

>IMO, the "beatnik" movement, if you will, was partly an exploitation of the

>BEAT literature movement. The term "beatnik" was coined in a newspaper

>article refering to any person who wore a beret and sandals and generally

>"loafed". From what I understand, the "nik" was added to the end of beat as a

>joke, refering to the new and popular fifties term "sputnik".

>

>Granted, there was good work,etc. that came from the "beatnik" era and it was

>a precursor to the "hippie" movement of the 60's. However, IMO, a lot of the

>beatnik material on the Rhino CD's is mocking the "beat" movement.

>

>I look at it as compared to the term "grunge" or "slacker". Grunge is a style

>of music, whereas if you are "grunge" you are a "slacker" but not necessarily

>a musician. It's just my way of putting it into perspective.

>

>I think the original article that coined "beatnik" is on Levi's LIT KICKS web

>page.

>

>-Kirsten Hirsch

>

Yeah. I know what you mean. beatnik conjures up images of people in black

turtlenecks, dark glasses and black berets snapping there fingers and saying

daddy-o.

I guess I don't know what Rhino CD you are talking about. The kerouac

collection is put out by Rhino and I thought you were talking about that.

Is there some sort of Rhino beatnik CD?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:58:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Big Sky Mind

Hello everyone

I hope you had a most safe, enjoyable, and respectable new year.

In a recent post, Dan Barth wrote:

%%

I did receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm

happy with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have

a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

%%

I picked the book up about 2 months ago and found it to be a good "alternate"

sort of anthology, not the general sort of anthology that The Beat Reader

tries to be. I find little new except the general thread of "seeker" along

the Beat-Buddhism axis....

I'd like to read some more impressions of _Big Sky Mind_.

BTW, _Big Sky Mind_, a "Tricycle Book", leads me to the magazine "Tricycle",

published quarterly, which includes pieces on the beats sometimes,

Kerouac&buddhism, AllenG&buddhism, et cetera.

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>I've been having a rough time trying to find information regarding the

>naropa institute & the school of poetics (the former of which I

>understand is part of the latter): there is nominally a page for the

>institute, but it has absolutely nothing on it other than a link to a

>journal from '94 regarding a visit to a gathering at the school. I'm

>very curious about this school: if anyone knows how I can find out all

>about it, help would be much appreciated.

I'd also appreciate this information.. I'll be grad. next year and would

like to know if it is worth going for a Masters there..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:11:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:37 -0500 from

<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

The College Handbook lists the current information on Naropa: Naropa Institute

, 2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302. Telephone: 303-444-0202. An M.A.

as well as MFA is offered.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:26:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <960103102135_83042145@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Howard Park"

at Jan 3, 96 10:21:36 am

About baraka:

i recently saw him read from his new collection of poems "transbluency"

at the borders in phila. -- the man's message is loud and clear and it is

unfortunate that so many just label him a racist and dismiss him --

besides the serious and DAMNING political bashing (surely deserved in my

book) in his poetry, he also calls for his people to lay the foundations

for a cultural base, something that is true and that will not be brushed

away as a fad -- the fact that i am white did not diminish the urgency of

his message -- the reading and the discussion afterwards were incredibly

inspiring for me -- baraka's eyes are WIDE open and his political message

(he is now a third-world socialist and very active in demonstrations

around the world) and all the implications it carries causes alot of

people to turn away in fear/blindness or whatever --(by the way, baraka

denounced his early nationalism long ago) -- i look at baraka's voice as

a vital one and a simple reading of his poetry i think warrants this --

baraka made some comments on the beats -- he explained that they were

never united except in the sense that they were all working towards a

break-down of language -- he said that he and ginsberg are/were good

friends but that he disagrees with 99.9 percent of what ginsberg says --

he mentioned reading 'howl' for the first time while in the navy and

writing to ginsberg asking him if he was "really for real"-- baraka

generally doesn't see himself as a member of that group and wonders why

he is so often lumped into it -- he also told everyone to check out bob

kaufmann if they really wanted to know where alot of what is considered

"beat' "came from" --

this comment interests me and i was wondering why kaufman poetry is so

hard to obtain -- reading his "ancient rain poems" i was struck by HOW

GOOD HE IS -- why is this man so often ignored -- he did say shortly

before he died that he wanted to be anonymous, but it is amazing to me

that we could let such a good poet get buried in the shade of lesser

talents -- he is the original jazz poet -- has anyone found any

recordings of kaufman --

also, since this is the first time i'm contributing to this list(although

i've been reading all the mail for about a month), my BIG question is

"WHO HAS A COPY OF 'Mishaps,Perhaps" by Solomon" -- can it actually be

found, CAN IT? -- can we convince ferlinghetti to reissue it, can we

threaten him? -- what about Lamantia poetry, the only 'beat' embraced by

andre breton himself as a liberated soul -- is 'meadowlark west' all that

is left of this amazing poet?

will

wss.mail.sas.upenn.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:53:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: To: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

> Date sent: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:26:22 -0500

> Send reply to: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

> From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

> Subject: Re: Baraka

> To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYV

William Schofield wrote:

> i was wondering why kaufman poetry is so

> hard to obtain -- reading his "ancient rain poems" i was struck by HOW

> GOOD HE IS -- why is this man so often ignored -- he did say shortly

> before he died that he wanted to be anonymous, but it is amazing to me

> that we could let such a good poet get buried in the shade of lesser

> talents -- he is the original jazz poet -- has anyone found any

> recordings of kaufman --

Yeah, you're right, it's pretty sad about Bob Kaufman, his work was

that great. Even GOLDEN SARDINE, I think, is out of print now, though

the newly published CITY LIGHTS POCKET POETS ANTHOLOGY (a terrific

anthology!) has a coupla poems from GOLDEN SARDINE.

But there will be published this year, if it has not been already,

this book: CRANIAL GUITAR: SELECTED POEMS, by Bob Kaufman! It's

published by Coffee House Press, in Minneapolis. I went on-line to

see who might own this, and only the Library of Congress has a record

of it right now.

Recordings, though, when I tried to locate anything through the

Library of Congress, nothing showed, and so there's probably nothing

commercial, at least.

> also, since this is the first time i'm contributing to this list(although

> i've been reading all the mail for about a month), my BIG question is

> "WHO HAS A COPY OF 'Mishaps,Perhaps" by Solomon" -- can it actually be

> found, CAN IT? -- can we convince ferlinghetti to reissue it, can we

> threaten him? -- what about Lamantia poetry, the only 'beat' embraced by

> andre breton himself as a liberated soul -- is 'meadowlark west' all that

> is left of this amazing poet

I think the Solomon stuff is out of print now, all of it, though in

1989 he published his memoirs, called EMERGENCY MESSAGES: AN

AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MISCELLANEY, through Paragon, the same folks who did

Huncke's GUILTY OF EVERYTHING.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:58:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: To: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

A quick addendum:

I don't know if I mentioned it, but a sequel of sorts was printed

after Carl Solomon's MISHAPS, PERHAPS, called MORE MISHAPS. I was

lucky enough to find copies of these a long time ago. And it's funny

looking at what the Library of Congress sees as among its official

subject headings: "Psychiatric Hospital Patients--United States--

Biography" !!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:11:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

>About baraka:

Will -- I had a copy of Mishaps, which I picked up at a used bookstore up

here in the snowy UP of Michigan. I eventually gifted-it away. I don't

rmember it as being a City Lights publication, though. I've been wrong

before, but there's a first time for everything!

Cheers,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:41:32 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Thorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Kerouac's Letters

I've had this book for a couple of months, and am reading

it real slow, one letter at a time, every few days.

Still on page 65, having finished a moving letter from Mom

(not Memere - she signs herself Mom) distraught at Jack's

attitude towards the navy.

Anyone else at a similar point?

Michael

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:44:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Carl Solomon (Was re: Baraka)

There are two brief excerpts from "Mishaps, Perhaps" in the Penguin "Portable

Beat Reader" (1992). According to the acknowledgements therein, the book

*was* published by City Lights and is copyrighted 1966 by Carl Solomon.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:15:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Hello again folks.

William Miller here.

In a message dated 96-01-04 14:26:19 EST, Clay Vaughn writes:

>I don't know if I mentioned it, but a sequel of sorts was printed

>after Carl Solomon's MISHAPS, PERHAPS, called MORE MISHAPS. I was

>lucky enough to find copies of these a long time ago. And it's funny

>looking at what the Library of Congress sees as among its official

>subject headings: "Psychiatric Hospital Patients--United States--

>Biography" !!!!!

A humorous side note is in order here: William Burroughs' _The Cat Inside_

is listed under "Pet Owners--United States--Biography" -----------

Sincerely,

William

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:34:08 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Interview with Neal Cassady's son

In-Reply-To: <960105101510_32523505@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "William Miller"

at Jan 5, 96 10:15:11 am

I just put a fairly extensive interview with John Cassady, Neal's 43-year-old

son, up on my web site. I think it turned out pretty interesting ... the

direct URL is http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCInterview.html, or you

can just go in thru my Beat News or Neal Cassady pages.

Happy New Year everyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some people like to go out dancing,

but other people like us, they gotta work

And there's even some evil mothers

who'll tell you life is just made out of dirt

That women never really faint

that villains always blink their eyes

That children are the only ones who blush

and that life is just a dive"

-- Velvet Underground, "Sweet Jane"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:57:40 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Unpublished Kerouac

The Fall 1995 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine includes an unpublished

story by Jack Kerouac, titled "My Sunset Birth." This issue also

includes:

o Study of Kerouac's spirituality,

o Description of the beat exhibit at the Whitney,

o Photo essay of Kerouac sites in San Francisco,

o Review of selected Kerouac archives, and

o Other reviews, info and stuff on Kerouac and beat activites and

resources.

<<DHARMA beat>>, is published twice a year by the non-profit Jack Kerouac

Subterrnaean Information Society. It is dedicated to getting the word out

on Kerouac activities, publications and organizations.

Available from: The Jack Kerouac subterranean Information Society, Box

1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753, USA. RATES: Sample $2.00, Subscription (2)

issues 5.00 US per year (Foreign $7.00 US). Hardcopy only.

Thanks.

Mark Hemenway

Attila Gyenis

Editors

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:07:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Keroauc/beat events

We're starting to get the Spring 1996 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine

together. If anyone is planning or knows of Kerouac or beat events,

organizations, activities, clubs, etc. we would be happy to publish that

information for you.

Send who, what, when, where and how much (if appropriate) to me at this

address or snail mail to the Jack Kerouac subterranean Information

Society, BOX 1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753.

Thanks,

Mark Hemenway

Co-editor

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:10:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: I win!!! :)

I WIN!!! :)

I hurt you?

Good, that was my intention

You will remember your first time

And I took it from you

But my purpose was planned

You fell in my trap

You treated me wrong

You disrespected me

You lied

You snuck around

And thought I'd be there always

Like a doll

You can play with me when you want

And then drop me

And when you come back I'll be ready and willing

I ain't like that

And I got my revenge

I taught you a lesson

You'll never forget me

And maybe next time you'll show your woman some respect

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:27:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: Father, just remember.

FATHER, JUST REMEMBER

You're so sweet

If only you could remember

You have a daughter

The one that's sitting beside you

The one that's always there

You know I'm here

You do care

but your blinded

You confuse me

You ignore me and blow me off

Then you turn around and act like I'm all you have

I know you care

Just remember

Please don't ever forget me, father

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:45:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: Love's Pain

LOVE'S PAIN

You say it's bad to not love

But look at the pain you're in

It's because of love

The tears that flow endlessly

It's because of love

I don't love

I don't care

I'm happy

Look at me

I don't feel love's pain

Maybe I'll love later

I don't have time now

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:02:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 1 Jan 1996 to 2 Jan 1996

Scattered responses to list topics:

Regina Weinreich's book on "poetics" not "prose": a good distinction:

"poetics" is a word that can link Kerouac with other theorists of "making"

(Greek poesis) literary works in late 20th C (I think of poet Charles Olson,

whose "field" approach has a lot of similarity with Kerouac's improvs). I

used the word too in my the title of my dissertation on Herman Melville to

talk about his theories of making texts as well -- it has some currency in

lit crit these days to describe prose writers' as well as poets' acts of

making.

Howard, do you know when the Beat show will be in Minneapolis?

On Baraka: there's a great video of him reading and being interviewed in the

Lannan Foundation series, which is in many libraries. To my mind, Baraka has

held firm to a Marxist approach to the revolutionary agenda introduced by the

Beats, later incorporated into 60s counter-culture. I find his critique of

culture to be very informed and not dismissable simply for being Marxist;

theoretical Marxism was not foreclosed by the demise of the Soviet bloc, no

matter what George Will etc. would have us think -- the Soviets had long

since discontinued being Marxist, were totalitarian, or even (some contend)

state-controlled capitalism. Or, to quote the rock band, The Mekons: "How

can socialism really be dead if it never even happened?"

On Naropa: If you don't want to enroll there for a longer period or just want

a taste, Naropa has a summer program (or at least they used to -- I haven't

been in touch with them in a few years) which annually brings in the

still-living heroes of American writing we've been talking about, as well as

many of the better experimental American poets who were influenced by Beat

stuff (I think of Clark Coolidge, for instance, who I saw read there) for

readings and classes. I didn't attend Naropa, but did the CU at Boulder

writing program, and attended many of the summer Naropa events, many of which

were open to the public for an admission charge. If you're short of cash,

you can just hang out (a popular pasttime in Boulder) and attend selected

events.

Has anyone on the list actually _attended_ Naropa? What was it like?

Peace,

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 03:03:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Naropa

Ted asked if anyone had ever attended Naropa. I took a class there about the

Shambhala tradition, but it too was a summer class, and I wasn't enrolled as

a full-time student. My feelings about Naropa are mixed; I very much respect

what they're trying to do, but I think they fall into the trappings many

academic institutions do, which is letting their ego get in the way of their

compassion (this seems particularly problematic in a Buddhist-founded

school). That was just one - my - experience though; I also knew a man who

got his M.A. from the Transpersonal Psych. program there and he emerged with

excellent counseling skills, and was very compassionate and mindful. He told

me that the application process for his program was pretty rigorous, but not

in the traditional academic sense. They put a lot of emphasis on personal

growth work, and communication & participation skills, more so than academic

record (which I don't suppose is such a big surprise). That's all I know.

Liz

(p.s. - Hi Clay)

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:00:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 1 Jan 1996 to 2 Jan 1996

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:02:04 -0500 from <Notlep@AOL.COM>

A footnote to Ted's posting: The Lannan foundation has produced a number of fi

ne videos on Beats and other poets. These videos are made available to many li

braries free through a grant from Lannan. Check your local libraries.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 10:42:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Minneapolis and SF dates for Beat show

According to the catalog, the "Beat Culture and the New America" show ends at

the Whitney on Feb. 4, opens at the Walker in Minneapolis on June 2 - Sept.

15, then to the de Young in San Francisco Oct. 5 - Dec. 29.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:28:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Minn/SF Dates for Beat Show

Greetings from frozen Washington. Dammit, if its not the freshmen Republican

assholes "revolutionaries" to shut the city down its the weather!

Anyway, according to many of you outside the beltway there was something

wrong with my previous post re: future dates for the beat show currently at

the Whitney. Here goes:

through Feb. 4 - Whitney, NYC

June 2 - Sept. 15, Walker Art Center, Minneapolis

Oct. 5 - Dec. 29, deYoung, San Francisco

BTW - I'm helping to promote a band, Outer Body Llama, and all of you near DC

should see them at the 15 Minute Club this Tuesday, 1/9 - it will be time to

dig out by then! E-Mail me directly for details.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:02:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: ccraig@CHATLINK.COM

Subject: Looking for.....

I am looking for a communications group of persons who:

do not feel part of the baby boomers;

are not old enough to be WWIIers;

who have some of the conservative, economical ideas of the

depression era parents who might have raised children

before WWII;

I am having trouble identifying with groups born after 1946.

please respond to me at

ccraig@chatlink.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:14:19 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Big Sky Mind

A couple of weeks ago at a used book store I picked up a book by Lafcadio

Hearn called *Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things*. Most of the

stories are from Chinese and Japanese sources. One titled "The Story of

Mimi-Nashi-Hoichi" includes a reference to the Buddhist "Pragna-

Paramita-Hridaya-Sutra" and includes this footnote: "Both the smaller and

larger sutras called Pragna-Paramita (Transcendent Wisdom) have been

translated by the late Professor Max Muller, and can be found in volume xlix.

of *The Sacred Books of the East* ('Buddhist Mahayana Sutras'). -- Apropos of

the magical use of the text, as described in this story, it is worth

remarking that the subject of the sutra is the Doctrine of the Emptiness of

Forms, -- that is to say, of the unreal character of all phenomena or noumena

. . . . ' Form is emptiness; and emptiness is form. Emptiness is not

different from form; form is not different from emptiness. What is form --

that is emptiness. What is emptiness -- that is form . . . . ' "

I copied that down because I liked the way it resonated in my mind. Then a

few days later I was reading the Kerouac section of *Big Sky Mind* and came

across these riffs or takes that Kerouac had done on that sutra. I'm not

trying to make a point here, I just like the way these things sound, the way

old Jack played with the words and concepts of the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.

So here you go:

". . . Philip, there's no difference between you and the tree and the fence,

different appearances of the same (holy-if-you-will) empty essence. It is in

the Hridaya Prajna Paramita, ie., like, the tree and the fence are emptiness,

the tree and the fence are not different from emptiness, neither is emptiness

different from the tree and the fence, indeed, emptiness is the tree & the

fence. Because emptiness is everything and everything is emptiness. And even

emptiness is a word, so, a prayer, the world, I mean the word emptiness is

emptiness, the word emptiness is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from the word emptiness, indeed, emptiness is the word

emptiness!" (Letter to Philip Whalen)

"Gary here's what I hope to see before I die. A whole bunch of Bhikkus are

sitting in the open, one of them holds his juju beads and recites out loud,

while the others follow bead by bead, he is reciting spontaneous prayers that

begin with the big Buddha bead and run through the other wooden ones and the

two glass beads. He goes, say, like this: 'Sitting in the open is the

emptiness of the Buddha bead, sitting in the open is not different from the

emptiness of the Buddha bead, neither is the emptiness of the Buddha bead

different from sitting in the open, indeed, the emptiness of the Buddha bead,

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 11:37:24 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

In-Reply-To: <951231201656_81734192@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "W. Luther

Jett" at Dec 31, 95 08:16:56 pm

> Today's Washington Post carries a very favourable review of a new book, "The

> Birth of the Beat Generation: Visionaries, Rebels, and Hipsters 1844-1960",

> by Steven Watson (Pantheon). I quote, in part, from the review:

>

> "An elegant coffee-table book, 'The Birth of the Beat Generation' juxtaposes

> arresting, seldom-seen photographs with a lively, engaging, bare-bones

> narrative. It also juxtaposes maps both geographic and interrelational with

> assorted marginalia: quips, booklists and beat argot. . . . Not since

> Lawrence Lipson's 'Holy Barbarians' of 1959 has there been a book of the Beat

> experience whole, even though various biographies have in varying degree

> mined the details. . . . Oddly, what is wanting, a true assessment, does not

> diminish this book's achievement . . . ."

>

> So, has anyone seen the book? How accurate is the reviewer's assessment?

I pretty much agree. The book is very nicely designed and has a lot of

illustrations. The text seems accurate. More of a sense of spontaneity and

random connections than in other, more traditional books of this type.

One thing I haven't seen yet is Voyager's new Beat Experience CD-Rom, or

whatever it's called. Not the Kerouac one (from Viking) but the one that

ties into the Whitney exhibit (I think). Any reports on it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some people like to go out dancing,

but other people like us, they gotta work

And there's even some evil mothers

who'll tell you life is just made out of dirt

That women never really faint

that villains always blink their eyes

That children are the only ones who blush

and that life is just a dive"

-- Velvet Underground, "Sweet Jane"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:41:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

The reviewer, Regina Weinreich, is a real beat fan and author of "The

Spontanious Prose of Jack Kerouac", so it's not surprising that she wrote a

favorable review of the "Brith of the Beat Generation." I don't mean to

discount it. It's an excellent book. Part group biography, part scrapbook.

It's more than a "coffeetable book".

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:41:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Whitney Show

I wrote a sort of review of thw Whitney show awhile back. I enjoyed and was

captivated by it, but I don't think I would make a special trip to New York

for it alone. It will travel to Minneapolis and San Francisco later this

year. The highlight of the show for me was the original rolled up manuscript

of On The Road and the Dharma Bums.

H. Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:08:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 30 Dec 1995 to 31 Dec 1995

Have just got back from a week in NYC with 2500 philosophers, and got to see

the Whitney exhibit. For me, there was some great stuff there - a lot of

JK's original artwork, the teletype roll of OTR, a bunch of his notebooks,

sketchpads etc, and a lot of photos of NYC and Beats around there, including

quite a few I'd never seen in books. I can see why the art critics were down

on the exhibit though, because the link between the big pieces on display

and the Beats seemed tentative to say the least, i.e. the Jackson Pollock

painting and some of the other art - nice stuff in its own right (most of

it) but out of kilter with the rest of the exhibit. Still, there was so much

of the real thing there I didn't mind. A most interesting video on show

(plus for sale, a copy of which I got) with all sorts of

JK/Ginsberg/Burroughs clips, weird art montages and some really cool jazz

from the period with Miles and Coltrane and so on. And a great audio track

which you could listen to at the exhibit (but I couldn't see for sale) with

readings, jazz, etc.

So I think you have to be a True Fan, but then I guess most all of us on

this list are ... it was well worth the trip and the $$$ to see the artefacts.

N W-W

>

>I have heard about and read a little about the current exhibit at the

>Whitney Museum in New York. Has this exhibit been discussed by fellows

>on the net? What is of particular interest? What special performances

>have been included, who has seen them, and what reports can be given?

>

>I've ordered the catalog from the museum and have a standing order for

>the CD-ROM. I hope that I have made the right choice in getting these

>items. I would like to fly into New York and see the actual exhibit, but

>time and $ weigh on my mind and wallet, making me choose the lest costly,

>more ordinary alternatives.

>

>So let me know. Who has seen the show? Whither goest thou, Whitney, in thy

>shiny black car in the night?

>

>

>

>

>

>Bill of the North Woods

>

>------------------------------

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:56:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

>The reviewer, Regina Weinreich, is a real beat fan and author of "The

>Spontanious Prose of Jack Kerouac", so it's not surprising that she wrote a

>favorable review of the "Brith of the Beat Generation." I don't mean to

>discount it. It's an excellent book. Part group biography, part scrapbook.

> It's more than a "coffeetable book".

>

>Howard Park

The book is actually called

The Spontaneous Poetics of Jack Kerouac. Poetics, not prose--I say this

only if someone goes out looking for it and tries to order it at a

bookstore or something.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:10:50 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

Hi Everybody and HAPPY NEW YEAR. I've seen *Birth of the BG* in the bookstores

and was first of all struck by the similarity in layout to *Generation X*. I

notice that Herbert Huncke is deemd an "icon" as is Ginsberg's buddy from the

mental hospital, Carl Solomon. To me these guys are minor characters and the

real icons are Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Cassady. Quibble, quibble. I

still would like a copy of the book but at $27.50 I'll have to wait. I did

receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm happy

with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

Best to you all.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:10:50 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

Hi Everybody and HAPPY NEW YEAR. I've seen *Birth of the BG* in the bookstores

and was first of all struck by the similarity in layout to *Generation X*. I

notice that Herbert Huncke is deemd an "icon" as is Ginsberg's buddy from the

mental hospital, Carl Solomon. To me these guys are minor characters and the

real icons are Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, Cassady. Quibble, quibble. I

still would like a copy of the book but at $27.50 I'll have to wait. I did

receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm happy

with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

Best to you all.

Dan B.

P.S. I think Regina Weinreich's book is very worthwhile. She was quite

prescient in her Introduction, c. 1987, in saying "there's a Kerouac industry

out there."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:29:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Birth of the Beat Generation

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:16:56 -0500 from

<MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Watson's book is interesting, particularly in terms of its novative

design. He makes good use of the margins for notes, photos, and

quotations. I wrote a review for Library Journal, which I haven't yet

seen in print. There's an interesting review in the November 1

Booklist, p. 449. Watson also did part of the Whitney catalog and is

scheduled to speak, I believe, at a conference at the New School for

Social Research in New York City. Details are in the Whitney monthly

calendar which I haven't got with me at this time.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:02:31 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <9512031818.AA14023@cabell.VCU.EDU>

I heard/saw ginsberg and his "wife" orlovsky read at haverford college

in 1965 or '66--pretty crazy, very radical, advocating free sex and drugs

and attacking govt's stand on vietnam war, etc.....paul breslin in

"psycho-political muse" claims ginsberg and other voices of "new american

poetry" of late 50's/60's (including levertov, olson, wright) are not

original at all but mouthing the cultural discourse of early 50's

"conformity criticism" and neo-freudianism (including marcuse, laing et

al) with background in marx, nietzsche, existentialism and (well,

yes) FREUD, the BIG mr. brainwash for me as little kid in 50's)....THEN i

heard leroi jones (= now BARAKA, right?) read at tuskegee institute, alabama

where i taught english in 1969 and him say to the largely black audience

(me and a few other instructors being paranoid white "honkeys from new york"):

"WE WANT BLACK POWER....don't let these honkeys from new york brainwash you

with their crap about sick existentialist jews from vianna"....

(his exact words i think).....hmmm, food for thought here.....fws

(but i still can dig jones/baraka's "preface to a 20-vol. suicide note")

On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Kirsten A. Hirsch wrote:

> I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

> think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

> that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

> American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

> (which he did) in the 1950's.

>

> I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

> was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

> very disappointing.

>

> Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:15:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960102233822.6308B-100000@ccshst08.cs.uoguelph.ca>

I've been having a rough time trying to find information regarding the

naropa institute & the school of poetics (the former of which I

understand is part of the latter): there is nominally a page for the

institute, but it has absolutely nothing on it other than a link to a

journal from '94 regarding a visit to a gathering at the school. I'm

very curious about this school: if anyone knows how I can find out all

about it, help would be much appreciated.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Reeve at

da PEAK email: peak@uoguelph.ca

Guelph's Student Magazine phone: (519)824-4120 x8522

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:06:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject: Christmas gifts

My family was very kind this year. I got the CDRomnibus (which was special

ordered from Olson Books in Washington DC) and the Beat Generation cds from

Rhino.

I've had fun with the Romnibus. Wish there was more video and sound. Some of

the "video" attached to readings is simply a still image and that is a bit of

a let down. If they were going to do something, they should have had clips

from PULL MY DAISY etc.

THe Rhino cds are interesting. Understanding the difference between BEAT and

BEATNIK is important though. If you do, it's very entertaining.

Whoever suggested writing to Waterow Books, I did and they sent me a great

catalog. Apparently, sometime this year there will be a Beat Generation CD-

ROM similar to the Kerouac one available through Waterow (and other sources I

am sure).

-Kirsten Hirsch

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:21:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

I don't defend Baraka. I do respect him. Every man's life is his own, if he

wants to reject part of it, its his to do. "Believe it if you need it, if

you don't then pass it on."

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:54:46 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Christmas gifts

>THe Rhino cds are interesting. Understanding the difference between BEAT and

>BEATNIK is important though. If you do, it's very entertaining.

>

What do you mean here, Kirsten? Why do the Rhino CD's elicit this comment?

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:47:59 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Rhino CD's

Comments: To: Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@comnet.usc.vcu.edu

At 01:50 PM 1/3/96 EST, you wrote:

>IMO, the "beatnik" movement, if you will, was partly an exploitation of the

>BEAT literature movement. The term "beatnik" was coined in a newspaper

>article refering to any person who wore a beret and sandals and generally

>"loafed". From what I understand, the "nik" was added to the end of beat as a

>joke, refering to the new and popular fifties term "sputnik".

>

>Granted, there was good work,etc. that came from the "beatnik" era and it was

>a precursor to the "hippie" movement of the 60's. However, IMO, a lot of the

>beatnik material on the Rhino CD's is mocking the "beat" movement.

>

>I look at it as compared to the term "grunge" or "slacker". Grunge is a style

>of music, whereas if you are "grunge" you are a "slacker" but not necessarily

>a musician. It's just my way of putting it into perspective.

>

>I think the original article that coined "beatnik" is on Levi's LIT KICKS web

>page.

>

>-Kirsten Hirsch

>

Yeah. I know what you mean. beatnik conjures up images of people in black

turtlenecks, dark glasses and black berets snapping there fingers and saying

daddy-o.

I guess I don't know what Rhino CD you are talking about. The kerouac

collection is put out by Rhino and I thought you were talking about that.

Is there some sort of Rhino beatnik CD?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:58:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Big Sky Mind

Hello everyone

I hope you had a most safe, enjoyable, and respectable new year.

In a recent post, Dan Barth wrote:

%%

I did receive *Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the BG* for a Chritmas present. I'm

happy with it, reading the Kerouac section at the moment, though again I have

a few

quibbles with the Introduction by a professor of philosophy who does not have

me convinced about his knowledge of the Beats.

%%

I picked the book up about 2 months ago and found it to be a good "alternate"

sort of anthology, not the general sort of anthology that The Beat Reader

tries to be. I find little new except the general thread of "seeker" along

the Beat-Buddhism axis....

I'd like to read some more impressions of _Big Sky Mind_.

BTW, _Big Sky Mind_, a "Tricycle Book", leads me to the magazine "Tricycle",

published quarterly, which includes pieces on the beats sometimes,

Kerouac&buddhism, AllenG&buddhism, et cetera.

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>I've been having a rough time trying to find information regarding the

>naropa institute & the school of poetics (the former of which I

>understand is part of the latter): there is nominally a page for the

>institute, but it has absolutely nothing on it other than a link to a

>journal from '94 regarding a visit to a gathering at the school. I'm

>very curious about this school: if anyone knows how I can find out all

>about it, help would be much appreciated.

I'd also appreciate this information.. I'll be grad. next year and would

like to know if it is worth going for a Masters there..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:11:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: naropa institute/kerouac school of disembodied poetics

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:37 -0500 from

<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

The College Handbook lists the current information on Naropa: Naropa Institute

, 2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302. Telephone: 303-444-0202. An M.A.

as well as MFA is offered.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:26:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <960103102135_83042145@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Howard Park"

at Jan 3, 96 10:21:36 am

About baraka:

i recently saw him read from his new collection of poems "transbluency"

at the borders in phila. -- the man's message is loud and clear and it is

unfortunate that so many just label him a racist and dismiss him --

besides the serious and DAMNING political bashing (surely deserved in my

book) in his poetry, he also calls for his people to lay the foundations

for a cultural base, something that is true and that will not be brushed

away as a fad -- the fact that i am white did not diminish the urgency of

his message -- the reading and the discussion afterwards were incredibly

inspiring for me -- baraka's eyes are WIDE open and his political message

(he is now a third-world socialist and very active in demonstrations

around the world) and all the implications it carries causes alot of

people to turn away in fear/blindness or whatever --(by the way, baraka

denounced his early nationalism long ago) -- i look at baraka's voice as

a vital one and a simple reading of his poetry i think warrants this --

baraka made some comments on the beats -- he explained that they were

never united except in the sense that they were all working towards a

break-down of language -- he said that he and ginsberg are/were good

friends but that he disagrees with 99.9 percent of what ginsberg says --

he mentioned reading 'howl' for the first time while in the navy and

writing to ginsberg asking him if he was "really for real"-- baraka

generally doesn't see himself as a member of that group and wonders why

he is so often lumped into it -- he also told everyone to check out bob

kaufmann if they really wanted to know where alot of what is considered

"beat' "came from" --

this comment interests me and i was wondering why kaufman poetry is so

hard to obtain -- reading his "ancient rain poems" i was struck by HOW

GOOD HE IS -- why is this man so often ignored -- he did say shortly

before he died that he wanted to be anonymous, but it is amazing to me

that we could let such a good poet get buried in the shade of lesser

talents -- he is the original jazz poet -- has anyone found any

recordings of kaufman --

also, since this is the first time i'm contributing to this list(although

i've been reading all the mail for about a month), my BIG question is

"WHO HAS A COPY OF 'Mishaps,Perhaps" by Solomon" -- can it actually be

found, CAN IT? -- can we convince ferlinghetti to reissue it, can we

threaten him? -- what about Lamantia poetry, the only 'beat' embraced by

andre breton himself as a liberated soul -- is 'meadowlark west' all that

is left of this amazing poet?

will

wss.mail.sas.upenn.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:53:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: To: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

> Date sent: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:26:22 -0500

> Send reply to: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

> From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

> Subject: Re: Baraka

> To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYV

William Schofield wrote:

> i was wondering why kaufman poetry is so

> hard to obtain -- reading his "ancient rain poems" i was struck by HOW

> GOOD HE IS -- why is this man so often ignored -- he did say shortly

> before he died that he wanted to be anonymous, but it is amazing to me

> that we could let such a good poet get buried in the shade of lesser

> talents -- he is the original jazz poet -- has anyone found any

> recordings of kaufman --

Yeah, you're right, it's pretty sad about Bob Kaufman, his work was

that great. Even GOLDEN SARDINE, I think, is out of print now, though

the newly published CITY LIGHTS POCKET POETS ANTHOLOGY (a terrific

anthology!) has a coupla poems from GOLDEN SARDINE.

But there will be published this year, if it has not been already,

this book: CRANIAL GUITAR: SELECTED POEMS, by Bob Kaufman! It's

published by Coffee House Press, in Minneapolis. I went on-line to

see who might own this, and only the Library of Congress has a record

of it right now.

Recordings, though, when I tried to locate anything through the

Library of Congress, nothing showed, and so there's probably nothing

commercial, at least.

> also, since this is the first time i'm contributing to this list(although

> i've been reading all the mail for about a month), my BIG question is

> "WHO HAS A COPY OF 'Mishaps,Perhaps" by Solomon" -- can it actually be

> found, CAN IT? -- can we convince ferlinghetti to reissue it, can we

> threaten him? -- what about Lamantia poetry, the only 'beat' embraced by

> andre breton himself as a liberated soul -- is 'meadowlark west' all that

> is left of this amazing poet

I think the Solomon stuff is out of print now, all of it, though in

1989 he published his memoirs, called EMERGENCY MESSAGES: AN

AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MISCELLANEY, through Paragon, the same folks who did

Huncke's GUILTY OF EVERYTHING.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:58:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: To: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

A quick addendum:

I don't know if I mentioned it, but a sequel of sorts was printed

after Carl Solomon's MISHAPS, PERHAPS, called MORE MISHAPS. I was

lucky enough to find copies of these a long time ago. And it's funny

looking at what the Library of Congress sees as among its official

subject headings: "Psychiatric Hospital Patients--United States--

Biography" !!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:11:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Baraka

>About baraka:

Will -- I had a copy of Mishaps, which I picked up at a used bookstore up

here in the snowy UP of Michigan. I eventually gifted-it away. I don't

rmember it as being a City Lights publication, though. I've been wrong

before, but there's a first time for everything!

Cheers,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:41:32 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Thorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Kerouac's Letters

I've had this book for a couple of months, and am reading

it real slow, one letter at a time, every few days.

Still on page 65, having finished a moving letter from Mom

(not Memere - she signs herself Mom) distraught at Jack's

attitude towards the navy.

Anyone else at a similar point?

Michael

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:44:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Carl Solomon (Was re: Baraka)

There are two brief excerpts from "Mishaps, Perhaps" in the Penguin "Portable

Beat Reader" (1992). According to the acknowledgements therein, the book

*was* published by City Lights and is copyrighted 1966 by Carl Solomon.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:15:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Hello again folks.

William Miller here.

In a message dated 96-01-04 14:26:19 EST, Clay Vaughn writes:

>I don't know if I mentioned it, but a sequel of sorts was printed

>after Carl Solomon's MISHAPS, PERHAPS, called MORE MISHAPS. I was

>lucky enough to find copies of these a long time ago. And it's funny

>looking at what the Library of Congress sees as among its official

>subject headings: "Psychiatric Hospital Patients--United States--

>Biography" !!!!!

A humorous side note is in order here: William Burroughs' _The Cat Inside_

is listed under "Pet Owners--United States--Biography" -----------

Sincerely,

William

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:34:08 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Interview with Neal Cassady's son

In-Reply-To: <960105101510_32523505@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "William Miller"

at Jan 5, 96 10:15:11 am

I just put a fairly extensive interview with John Cassady, Neal's 43-year-old

son, up on my web site. I think it turned out pretty interesting ... the

direct URL is http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCInterview.html, or you

can just go in thru my Beat News or Neal Cassady pages.

Happy New Year everyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Some people like to go out dancing,

but other people like us, they gotta work

And there's even some evil mothers

who'll tell you life is just made out of dirt

That women never really faint

that villains always blink their eyes

That children are the only ones who blush

and that life is just a dive"

-- Velvet Underground, "Sweet Jane"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:57:40 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Unpublished Kerouac

The Fall 1995 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine includes an unpublished

story by Jack Kerouac, titled "My Sunset Birth." This issue also

includes:

o Study of Kerouac's spirituality,

o Description of the beat exhibit at the Whitney,

o Photo essay of Kerouac sites in San Francisco,

o Review of selected Kerouac archives, and

o Other reviews, info and stuff on Kerouac and beat activites and

resources.

<<DHARMA beat>>, is published twice a year by the non-profit Jack Kerouac

Subterrnaean Information Society. It is dedicated to getting the word out

on Kerouac activities, publications and organizations.

Available from: The Jack Kerouac subterranean Information Society, Box

1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753, USA. RATES: Sample $2.00, Subscription (2)

issues 5.00 US per year (Foreign $7.00 US). Hardcopy only.

Thanks.

Mark Hemenway

Attila Gyenis

Editors

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:07:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Keroauc/beat events

We're starting to get the Spring 1996 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine

together. If anyone is planning or knows of Kerouac or beat events,

organizations, activities, clubs, etc. we would be happy to publish that

information for you.

Send who, what, when, where and how much (if appropriate) to me at this

address or snail mail to the Jack Kerouac subterranean Information

Society, BOX 1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753.

Thanks,

Mark Hemenway

Co-editor

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:10:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: I win!!! :)

I WIN!!! :)

I hurt you?

Good, that was my intention

You will remember your first time

And I took it from you

But my purpose was planned

You fell in my trap

You treated me wrong

You disrespected me

You lied

You snuck around

And thought I'd be there always

Like a doll

You can play with me when you want

And then drop me

And when you come back I'll be ready and willing

I ain't like that

And I got my revenge

I taught you a lesson

You'll never forget me

And maybe next time you'll show your woman some respect

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:27:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: Father, just remember.

FATHER, JUST REMEMBER

You're so sweet

If only you could remember

You have a daughter

The one that's sitting beside you

The one that's always there

You know I'm here

You do care

but your blinded

You confuse me

You ignore me and blow me off

Then you turn around and act like I'm all you have

I know you care

Just remember

Please don't ever forget me, father

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:45:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kris L. Dolberg" <GreenTramp@AOL.COM>

Subject: filler: Love's Pain

LOVE'S PAIN

You say it's bad to not love

But look at the pain you're in

It's because of love

The tears that flow endlessly

It's because of love

I don't love

I don't care

I'm happy

Look at me

I don't feel love's pain

Maybe I'll love later

I don't have time now

-Zoe LD

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:02:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 1 Jan 1996 to 2 Jan 1996

Scattered responses to list topics:

Regina Weinreich's book on "poetics" not "prose": a good distinction:

"poetics" is a word that can link Kerouac with other theorists of "making"

(Greek poesis) literary works in late 20th C (I think of poet Charles Olson,

whose "field" approach has a lot of similarity with Kerouac's improvs). I

used the word too in my the title of my dissertation on Herman Melville to

talk about his theories of making texts as well -- it has some currency in

lit crit these days to describe prose writers' as well as poets' acts of

making.

Howard, do you know when the Beat show will be in Minneapolis?

On Baraka: there's a great video of him reading and being interviewed in the

Lannan Foundation series, which is in many libraries. To my mind, Baraka has

held firm to a Marxist approach to the revolutionary agenda introduced by the

Beats, later incorporated into 60s counter-culture. I find his critique of

culture to be very informed and not dismissable simply for being Marxist;

theoretical Marxism was not foreclosed by the demise of the Soviet bloc, no

matter what George Will etc. would have us think -- the Soviets had long

since discontinued being Marxist, were totalitarian, or even (some contend)

state-controlled capitalism. Or, to quote the rock band, The Mekons: "How

can socialism really be dead if it never even happened?"

On Naropa: If you don't want to enroll there for a longer period or just want

a taste, Naropa has a summer program (or at least they used to -- I haven't

been in touch with them in a few years) which annually brings in the

still-living heroes of American writing we've been talking about, as well as

many of the better experimental American poets who were influenced by Beat

stuff (I think of Clark Coolidge, for instance, who I saw read there) for

readings and classes. I didn't attend Naropa, but did the CU at Boulder

writing program, and attended many of the summer Naropa events, many of which

were open to the public for an admission charge. If you're short of cash,

you can just hang out (a popular pasttime in Boulder) and attend selected

events.

Has anyone on the list actually _attended_ Naropa? What was it like?

Peace,

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 03:03:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Naropa

Ted asked if anyone had ever attended Naropa. I took a class there about the

Shambhala tradition, but it too was a summer class, and I wasn't enrolled as

a full-time student. My feelings about Naropa are mixed; I very much respect

what they're trying to do, but I think they fall into the trappings many

academic institutions do, which is letting their ego get in the way of their

compassion (this seems particularly problematic in a Buddhist-founded

school). That was just one - my - experience though; I also knew a man who

got his M.A. from the Transpersonal Psych. program there and he emerged with

excellent counseling skills, and was very compassionate and mindful. He told

me that the application process for his program was pretty rigorous, but not

in the traditional academic sense. They put a lot of emphasis on personal

growth work, and communication & participation skills, more so than academic

record (which I don't suppose is such a big surprise). That's all I know.

Liz

(p.s. - Hi Clay)

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:00:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 1 Jan 1996 to 2 Jan 1996

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:02:04 -0500 from <Notlep@AOL.COM>

A footnote to Ted's posting: The Lannan foundation has produced a number of fi

ne videos on Beats and other poets. These videos are made available to many li

braries free through a grant from Lannan. Check your local libraries.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 10:42:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Minneapolis and SF dates for Beat show

According to the catalog, the "Beat Culture and the New America" show ends at

the Whitney on Feb. 4, opens at the Walker in Minneapolis on June 2 - Sept.

15, then to the de Young in San Francisco Oct. 5 - Dec. 29.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:28:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Minn/SF Dates for Beat Show

Greetings from frozen Washington. Dammit, if its not the freshmen Republican

assholes "revolutionaries" to shut the city down its the weather!

Anyway, according to many of you outside the beltway there was something

wrong with my previous post re: future dates for the beat show currently at

the Whitney. Here goes:

through Feb. 4 - Whitney, NYC

June 2 - Sept. 15, Walker Art Center, Minneapolis

Oct. 5 - Dec. 29, deYoung, San Francisco

BTW - I'm helping to promote a band, Outer Body Llama, and all of you near DC

should see them at the 15 Minute Club this Tuesday, 1/9 - it will be time to

dig out by then! E-Mail me directly for details.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:02:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: ccraig@CHATLINK.COM

Subject: Looking for.....

I am looking for a communications group of persons who:

do not feel part of the baby boomers;

are not old enough to be WWIIers;

who have some of the conservative, economical ideas of the

depression era parents who might have raised children

before WWII;

I am having trouble identifying with groups born after 1946.

please respond to me at

ccraig@chatlink.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:14:19 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Big Sky Mind

A couple of weeks ago at a used book store I picked up a book by Lafcadio

Hearn called *Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things*. Most of the

stories are from Chinese and Japanese sources. One titled "The Story of

Mimi-Nashi-Hoichi" includes a reference to the Buddhist "Pragna-

Paramita-Hridaya-Sutra" and includes this footnote: "Both the smaller and

larger sutras called Pragna-Paramita (Transcendent Wisdom) have been

translated by the late Professor Max Muller, and can be found in volume xlix.

of *The Sacred Books of the East* ('Buddhist Mahayana Sutras'). -- Apropos of

the magical use of the text, as described in this story, it is worth

remarking that the subject of the sutra is the Doctrine of the Emptiness of

Forms, -- that is to say, of the unreal character of all phenomena or noumena

. . . . ' Form is emptiness; and emptiness is form. Emptiness is not

different from form; form is not different from emptiness. What is form --

that is emptiness. What is emptiness -- that is form . . . . ' "

I copied that down because I liked the way it resonated in my mind. Then a

few days later I was reading the Kerouac section of *Big Sky Mind* and came

across these riffs or takes that Kerouac had done on that sutra. I'm not

trying to make a point here, I just like the way these things sound, the way

old Jack played with the words and concepts of the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.

So here you go:

". . . Philip, there's no difference between you and the tree and the fence,

different appearances of the same (holy-if-you-will) empty essence. It is in

the Hridaya Prajna Paramita, ie., like, the tree and the fence are emptiness,

the tree and the fence are not different from emptiness, neither is emptiness

different from the tree and the fence, indeed, emptiness is the tree & the

fence. Because emptiness is everything and everything is emptiness. And even

emptiness is a word, so, a prayer, the world, I mean the word emptiness is

emptiness, the word emptiness is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from the word emptiness, indeed, emptiness is the word

emptiness!" (Letter to Philip Whalen)

"Gary here's what I hope to see before I die. A whole bunch of Bhikkus are

sitting in the open, one of them holds his juju beads and recites out loud,

while the others follow bead by bead, he is reciting spontaneous prayers that

begin with the big Buddha bead and run through the other wooden ones and the

two glass beads. He goes, say, like this: 'Sitting in the open is the

emptiness of the Buddha bead, sitting in the open is not different from the

emptiness of the Buddha bead, neither is the emptiness of the Buddha bead

different from sitting in the open, indeed, the emptiness of the Buddha bead,

is sitting in the open . . . . confused as to what to pray now, is emptiness:

confused as to what to pray now, is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from being confused as to what to pray now, indeed,

emptiness is being confused as to what to pray now' . . . (this on the first

regular wood bead) (the others follow, fingering, listening) . . . (each has

its turn) (it sometimes gets charming and amusing and yet there is that

continuous Praja canceling out all attributes) . . . (The disciple comes to

the first glassbead) . . . 'The dust in my dream last night, is emptiness of

the Ananda glassbead; the dust of my dream last night is not different from

the emptiness of the Ananda glassbead, neither is emptiness of the Ananda

glassbead different from the dust of my dream last night, indeed, emptiness

of the Ananda glassbead is the dust of my dream last night' . . . and so on.

I know this works because it's worked for me, alone, with dogs, in my Twin

Tree Grove here, every night for the past 6 weeks . . . 'The bowing weeds is

emptiness, the bowing weeds is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from the bowing weeds, indeed, emptiness is the bowing

weeds.' That nothing ever happens, is emptiness; that nothing ever happens,

is not different from emptiness; neither is emptiness different from that

nothing ever happens; indeed, emptiness is that nothing ever happens . . . "

(Letter to Gary Snyder)

Okay, I think I have typed myself silly, which I believe is the idea -- a

way to help your mind off yourself in this work. Any thoughts on all this?

The glass bead stuff makes me think of Hermann Hesse and his Glass Bead Game.

All for now.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:38 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Bradbury <R.A.Bradbury%exeter.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET>

Subject: Re: greetings

Dear Dale

browsing the net and came across your name. How are things?

Best wishes

Richard Bradbury

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Collectors?

I am interested in communicating with those of you who collect Beat

lit and or ephemera. I am not a dealer.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:37:18 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@Aalborg U (AAU)" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:14:19 GMT,

Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org> wrote:

> A couple of weeks ago at a used book store I picked up a book by

Lafcadio

>Hearn called *Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things*. Most of the

>stories are from Chinese and Japanese sources. One titled "The Story of

>Mimi-Nashi-Hoichi" includes a reference to the Buddhist "Pragna-

>Paramita-Hridaya-Sutra" and includes this footnote: "Both the smaller and

>larger sutras called Pragna-Paramita (Transcendent Wisdom) have been

>translated by the late Professor Max Muller, and can be found in volume xlix.

>of *The Sacred Books of the East* ('Buddhist Mahayana Sutras'). -- Apropos of

>the magical use of the text, as described in this story, it is worth

>remarking that the subject of the sutra is the Doctrine of the Emptiness of

>Forms, -- that is to say, of the unreal character of all phenomena or noumena

>. . . . ' Form is emptiness; and emptiness is form. Emptiness is not

>different from form; form is not different from emptiness. What is form --

>that is emptiness. What is emptiness -- that is form . . . . ' "

>

> I copied that down because I liked the way it resonated in my mind.

Then a

>few days later I was reading the Kerouac section of *Big Sky Mind* and came

>across these riffs or takes that Kerouac had done on that sutra. I'm not

>trying to make a point here, I just like the way these things sound, the way

>old Jack played with the words and concepts of the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.

The letters Dan is quoting from are also in the "Selected Letters" edited

by Ann Charters, on pp. 546-550 and pp. 566-570, respectively...

Regards,

bs@AAU

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:16:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind

In a recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to

Gary Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this

was mentioned in the letter, I believe). Anyone familiar

with LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many

similarities between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed

by LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).

Dan B. also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's

_Glass Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.

I am not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared

to Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt

notable.

An interesting question occurs to me (this list may or

not be the platform for such): Just how "beat" was

Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat generation"

writers by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how

much of a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,

Dylan Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he

was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits and ideals

that the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).

Does anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would appreciate

any feedback.

Trevor D. Smith-

University at Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:42:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Big Sky Mind

In a recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to

Gary Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this

was mentioned in the letter, I believe). Anyone familiar

with LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many

similarities between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed

by LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).

Dan B. also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's

_Glass Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.

I am not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared

to Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt

notable.

An interesting question occurs to me (this list may or

not be the platform for such): Just how "beat" was

Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat generation"

writers by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how

much of a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,

Dylan Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he

was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits and ideals

that the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).

Does anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would appreciate

any feedback.

Trevor D. Smith-

University at Buffalo

German Dept.

Trevor,

I do recall a reference to Hesse in my beat readings. My recollection is

that Hesse was dismissed by the author (Kerouac?). If I can locate the

quote, I will forward it to you.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:11:40 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Aimone <joaimone@UCDAVIS.EDU>

Subject: New discussion list

Comments: To: abow0001@GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU

Please reproduce this announcement freely.

Announcement:

Discussion list for graduate students in the modern languages

E-Grad is intended principally as a sheltered but open forum for the

concerns of graduate students in the modern languages. It is maintained by

members of the Graduate Student Caucus, an allied organization of the MLA.

As an allied organization, GSC does not represent the MLA. Rather, it is a

group of its members, who are graduate students. You do not need to be a

member of the MLA or the GSC to subscribe to E-Grad.

1) Send a message to

listproc@listproc.bgsu.edu

2) Leave everything else blank except for a line in the message section

with:

subscribe e-grad firstname lastname

3) Shortly after that, you'll get a welcome message which you might want

to save.

If you have problems or questions, please feel free to e-mail me

(Alan Rea) at alan@bgnet.bgsu.edu and I'll be more than happy to help.

--

Joe Aimone

Department of English

University of California, Davis

joaimone@ucdavis.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:11:48 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Max Croasdale DD-SP <mcroasda@MADGE.COM>

Organization: Madge Networks

Subject: Hesse/On the Road

In-Reply-To: <C301C74E01560C00>

Mark, Trevor,

I've recently joined the list and thought that I might contribute to this

question. As far as I remember Kerouac does mention Hesse in 'On the

Road'. I don't know the exact quote (Steppenwolf?), but I think it

occurs pretty near the beginning of the book. I don't have a copy of

'Road' with me so I can't check but I hope this helps.

regards,

Max.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:32:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hesse and Beat

Thanks for those prompt replies in regard to Hesse

and Beat literature. I will grab a copy of _On the

Road_ and see if I can locate that quote (or any,

by Kerouac). I would indeed be surprised if Kerouac

(or any writers of the Beat Generation) dismisses

Hesse (they all seem to share common goals and ideas),

but Hesse-reception has varied greatly at different

times and in different locations, so I suppose anything

might be possible.

Hesse was incredibly well-read and I did check to see

if he had written any literary reviews (he wrote MANY!)

on any of the Beat writers. Apparently, he never did.

Hesse was not terribly productive in his final years

(he died in 1962) and wasn't really that interested in

American literature anyway. That may explain the

absence of any Beat discussion on his part. I would

bet, however, that Hesse was aware of writers like

Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs. I will continue to

search.

Keep me posted. Thanks!!

Trevor D. Smith--

University of Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:59:14 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sonja Streuber <shstreuber@UCDAVIS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

In-Reply-To: <01HZVPNEERE08WW3CQ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

What an exciting topic! Now, in contrast to Trevor, though, I would

doubt that Hesse was aware of the Beats at all. Judging from his

psychology as author and philosopher, I would rather think that he was

more into Kafka (who read him in return), which shows in the end of

_Steppenwolf_, and Brecht. And I would actually relate the orientalism

that we find in _Siddharta_ not so much to the appropriaton of Bhuddism

by the Beats, either, but rather (judging from Hesses's 19th century

affiliations) to Goethe's _West-Eastern Diwan_, or to the stuff that was

going on in the British and French Decadence at that time.

Philosophically, he (at least for me) tends more towards the 19th century

as well, and _Steppenwolf_, in many parts, seems to be a rewriting of _Thus

Spoke Zarathustra_ (Nietzsche). As for his

reviewing activities, I am sure he has reviewed many European books, but

again, I really doubt that he would have had anything to do with the

Beats. The America he knew was probably that of Kafka's stories, or that

of the Brecht-Weill connection (which means *much* earier).

The rereadings of Hesse by Kerouac, Ginsberg, and friends is, I think,

something completely different. Especially during the 60s, 70s, and

early 80s (I caught the tail end of it still), Hesse was just incredibly

popular worldwide. So, I would see his inclusion in _On the Road_ rather

as a historical/ philosophical chroncling or as an attempt of Kerouac's

to situate his book within a larger literary context. Or, and this point

has been made by various critics of Kerouac's, it points to an eclectic

nostalgia for Romanticist moments.

Couldn't keep my mouth shut on that one....

Sonjaa

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

Sonja Streuber * The arrogance associated with knowledge and

Department of English * sensation lays a blinding fog over man's eyes

University of California * by instilling in him a most flattering

Davis, CA 95616 * estimation of this faculty of knowledge.

shstreuber@ucdavis.edu * (F. Nietzsche, 1873)

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:35:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

My earlier recollection is starting to come in to focus, although I still

have not located the source. It seems to me that Kerouac was asked a

question about Hesse's view of Bhuddism in the novel Siddhartha.

Kerouac's response suggested that Hesse was not an authority on

Bhuddism. I might have read this in his Paris Review interview with

Ted Berrigan and Aram Saroyan.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:05:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

confusion in the first place. Those born in an around the beat era, were

few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very low

birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat ideas were

shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put

on them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.

The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

confusion

Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: filler: Love's Pain

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

> -Zoe LD

I enjoyed the poems, but wondering if this is a name I should

recognize? either as a list member or someone associated

w/ the beats that my ignorance doesn't know..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Keroauc/beat events

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>We're starting to get the Spring 1996 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine

>together. If anyone is planning or knows of Kerouac or beat events,

>organizations, activities, clubs, etc. we would be happy to publish that

>information for you.

[text deleted]

>Mark Hemenway

>Co-editor

>mhemenway@s1.drc.com

Who do or HOW do we get subscription information to DHARMA beat?

If you can post that here or send it personally I'd be greatful.

[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:09:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

On Jan 03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:

>"conformity criticism"

Could you define the above for me?

Thanks

Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:18:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Naropa

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Ted asked if anyone had ever attended Naropa. I took a class there about

the

>Shambhala tradition, but it too was a summer class, and I wasn't enrolled

as

>a full-time student. My feelings about Naropa are mixed; I very much

respect

>what they're trying to do, but I think they fall into the trappings many

>academic institutions do, which is letting their ego get in the way of

their

>compassion

I have a similar question on this strand.

I'm nearing my graduation as an English/Theatre major w/ an emphasis in

Film.. hehe (personal joke, though very much true). Anyhow, I'm curious to

know if: 1. Naropa offers an MA in Alternative

Fiction/Theatre/Poetry/Film,

2. IF there is even a SCHOOL that offers such a study,

and

3. IF something similar does exist, where might I find

that college?

[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:27:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@cunyvm.csd.unb.ca>

In-Reply-To: <199601112305.SAA03763@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Reeve at

da PEAK email: peak@uoguelph.ca

Guelph's Student Magazine phone: (519)824-4120 x8522

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>

> The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

> confusion

Notions of individuality? What foolishness! How could they...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:59:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Blessings of Baraka?

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, >thus

confusion

And here I thought confusion (and individuality) were natural aspects of the

human condition.

I'm glad someone has the temerity to clear this up.

Luther Jett

I mean, _really_! "Individualistic _crap_"?? What other kind of crap is

there?

LJ

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:16:30 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Glenn Davis <gdavis@SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Baraka

it occurs that out of confusion, if not driven to suicidal angst, there is

the rare moment of a solution to a problem which, forgive my

misunderstanding if that is the case, though you certainly do possess that

if not compassion, you may not have suffered

how cum?

gd

At 06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

>is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

>confusion in the first place. Those born in an around the beat era, were

>few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very low

>birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat ideas were

>shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

>

>Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

>of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put

>on them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

>confusion

>

>Damien

>

>

-SOURCES- eJournal - a division of DSO, Inc.

'Beyond Intelligence -- Truth' (tm)

http://www.dso.com/sources/

601 Van Ness Suite E3425

San Francisco, Ca 94102

Fx. 415-775-3082 V. 415-775-9785

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:10:13 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

Individuality is the result of interpretation of one's perpective

of their life experience-phenomenological retention.

Confusion is the result of not having enough information or the

defensive reaction to not accepting personal responsibility for

decision-making.

But this is only my individual interpretation given what facts

I have decided to accept in my life.

Anybody dig on "Mexico Blues"?

........................................James.......................

--

...driven to madness,starving hysterical naked...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:21:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: conformity

I'm afraid I can't agree with Damien. The pressure to conform in the 1950s was

very real. There wasn't any pressure *not* to conform. Those, like Ginsberg,

who did rebel paid a very real price for it.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:28:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Collectors?

Hi Mark:

I'm a collector of Beat lit, etc. and hope to hear from you.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:15:43 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Collectors and Hesse

If you would like to discuss beat collecting please contact me at

Fisher@Programart.com.

The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

"For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

"Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

time.

I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

JK.

Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:17:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hesse (yet again!)

Thanks much for all the responses to my Hesse query. I have

poked around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse

did, in fact, know of the Beat writers. Hesse practiced an

odd ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works

that he didn't like. Thus, it is quite possible he knew

of Kerouac and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy

of review (!). I will continue my search and keep you all

posted.

In terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--

I am still working on that too, but am sure that he had

some effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have

suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson

(see _The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.

Fred Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and

"Steppenwolf" films) claims that Kerouac, in his search

for transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I will look

into this.

Thanks again, and keep me posted. I appreciate all of

your replies.

Trevor D. Smith--

University of Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:38:44 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned *Steppenwolf*. At

the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

*Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

Regarding Hesse's reviews and reading, he read Thomas Wolfe's *Look Homeward

Angel* and reviewed it very favorably. Check out his book, *My Belief*, which

also has a review of *The Catcher in the Rye* and some of his writing on

Buddha and Lao- Tse. With Trevor, I'm guessing he was aware of the Beats but

was doing more gardening than reviewing at the time. I see him as sympatico

with the Beats but not much of a direct influence. For one thing I don't

think there were too many English language translations of his books until

the 1960s and '70s.

Trevor, when I get these postings they don't include e-mail address. If you

will send me yours, I'd like to correspond further on this topic. That goes

for everyone else too.

On the world wide web there is some interesting material which I found by

doing a net search for "Glass Bead Game."

Cheers.

Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:45:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Tangent and apology

At 06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

>is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

>confusion in the first place.

Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting "social learning", but are you saying we

should do just what society tells us, just to avoid confusion?

So, it's not the pressure to conform that confuses one, but the "notion" that

there is something intelligent within us that resists conformity? Your

thinking reminds me of the logic of brainwashing, in which the unfortunate

subject is eventually convinced that their resistance to the introduced

influence was the cause of their confusion; a confusion in this case

deliberately set up by the programmers for their own purposes. (Any

resemblance to society is intended)

To paraphrase a non-beat poet: to be yourself, in a world that wants you to

be someone else, is to fight the hardest fight anyone ever fought and never

stop fighting.

> Those born in an around the beat era, were

>few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very >low

birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat >ideas were

shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

This does not make sense. Is it supposed to, or are you trying to send us up?

An idea is either accepted or not , by however many people.

>Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing >pressure put on

them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform >in nonconformity.

Although the pressure not to conform exists, I agree with Bill Gargan

that the beats were under more pressure to conform.

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

>confusion

Successful conditioning will lead to notions of certitude, however unfounded.

A certain amount of confusion is not only to be tolerated but welcomed,

especially by writers and artists and others who are trying to grow something

(a self, perhaps?). Confusion can be a learning edge. Unless you want an

artistic tradition like ancient Egypt's, that didn't change for thousands of

years. In which case we should never have had that blossoming called the beat

generation, of which at least several of us here are fond.

Jules (who apologizes for breaking one of her new years resolutions:

not to be seduced into discussions with youngsters grinding their

philosophical axes on this list, when there is plenty of beat-related stuff

to discuss)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:05:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Re: Hesse (yet again!)

At 03:17 PM 1/12/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks much for all the responses to my Hesse query. I have

>poked around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse

>did, in fact, know of the Beat writers. Hesse practiced an

>odd ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works

>that he didn't like. Thus, it is quite possible he knew

>of Kerouac and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy

>of review (!). I will continue my search and keep you all

>posted.

>

>In terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--

>I am still working on that too, but am sure that he had

>some effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have

>suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson

>(see _The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.

>

>Fred Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and

>"Steppenwolf" films) claims that Kerouac, in his search

>for transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I will look

>into this.

>

>Thanks again, and keep me posted. I appreciate all of

>your replies.

>

>

>Trevor D. Smith--

> University of Buffalo

> German Dept.

>

>

Interesting of Trevor Smith to mention Colin Wilson re his original query on

the relationship of Hesse and the Beats. In one of John Clennon Holmes (late

60`s) travel essays, I believe the one on London, Holmes, when referring

endearingly but disapprovingly to the emotional reserve for which the

British are renowned, states that the Brits felt " burned by Colin Wilson ".

So, this suggests some empathy between the Beat perspective ( and don`t

believe for a minute that Holmes didn`t embody the Beat ethos - the

authentic one - to the core) and Hesse, to whom Wilson felt a close empathy

as pointed out by Trevor Smith. Am I stretching things? Maybe, but I don`t

think so.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodney Lee Phillips <philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Collectors and Hesse

In-Reply-To: <9600128214.AA821481568@wok.programart.com> from "Mark Fisher" at

Jan 12, 96 01:15:43 pm

Mark--

In regards to your question concerning the Beats & Russian writers, see a

collection of interviews called (I believe) <The Beat Generation and the

Russian New Wave>. It was published by Ardis Press in Ann Arbor in 1990.

Sorry, but I can't remember the editor's name. The book contains some

interesting stuff on the connections between the Beats and their Russian

counterparts.

Best,

Rod Phillips

Dept of American Thought & Language

Michigan State

philli31@pilot.msu.edu

> > If you would like

to discuss beat collecting please contact me at > Fisher@Programart.com.

>

>

> The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

> in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

>

> "For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

> "Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

>

> There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

> refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

> mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

> was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

> time.

>

> I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

> JK.

>

> Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

> I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

> that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:41:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

Comments: To: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@aztec.asu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <9601120710.AA06870@aztec.asu.edu>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, JAMES ATKERSON wrote:

> ...driven to madness,starving hysterical naked...

"driven to..."--"destroyed by..."?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:59:28 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

An exercise in poetic license.

--

...driven to madness,

starving

hysterical

naked...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:27:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Dead Beat

I recently came across a book by Hank Harrison called "The Dead Book."

For those of you not familiar with it, this book is a narrative

history of the Grateful Dead. It is also a history of the California

counterculture with lots of references to the Beats (Neal Cassady in

particular). Check it out.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:54:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Hesse and Burroughs

Hello folks.

there is, as has been mentioned, a passing reference to HH in _Literary

Outlaw_, the Ted Morgan bio of WSB.

There is no reference to HH in the Barry Miles bio of WSB.

Let's hope I'm taking good notes.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:34:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Linda Grimes <00lsgrimes@BSUVC.BSU.EDU>

Subject: The Beat Ethos

Could someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?

Thanks,

Linda Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:37:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

At 08:34 AM 1/13/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Could someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?

>

>Thanks,

>Linda Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu

>

May I suggest the following as my understanding of the true Beat ethos: it

is simply (but no less than) the upholding of the worth and distinctiveness

of the individual and his spirit in (to borrow a memorable phrase of John

Clennon Holmes) the " automated kaleidescope of our times"). Jack Kerouac

drew particularly vibrant pictures of Beatness based on American models

ranging from Neal Cassady to Gary Snyder to Harpo Marx to Charlie Parker.

True Beatness is, as Kerouac said, " sympathetic", but it is also, as Jack

always insisted, essentially apolitical. Jack rightly decried a vision of

Beats "exuding transactions", and I think Alan Ginsberg recognizes this now.

He said as much in the recent documentary film made of his life. As for

drugs, they were part of the revolution in manners which Beat culture helped

to bring about in the 50`s, but as Jack wrote they were just a fad, a symbol

- the Beats` equivalent of the Lost Generation`s champagne bottle entwined

in a silk stocking.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:20:40 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

"the magic game of glad freedom"

-- JK, *Big Sur*

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:39:55 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

I found the reference on p.24 of my Bantam paperback edition of *Big Sur*:

"Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness of that little wire

scourer, those little yellow copper things you buy in supermarkets for 10

cents, all to me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and senseless

'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which I read with a shrug . . ."

Again, I don't think there's a direct link between Hesse and the Beats, but

there is an indirect one through Thomas Wolfe and other writers. Hesse's

early novels *Peter Camenzind*, *Knulp* and *Wandering* have certain

similarities to Kerouac's work. In his book *The Novels of Hermann Hesse*,

Theodore Ziolkowski talks about "The Roamantic Bildungsroman" which

"typically displays an episodic structure that permits a broad exposure of

the hero to contemporary cultural influences while deriving its coherence

from a central focus on the inner growth of the youth toward an affirmation

of life." That's a fair description of *Look Homeward, Angel* and *On the

Road* as well as *Demian* and other Hesse novels.

By the way, I've seen reference to an early Hesse book (1906) called *On the

Road* in some translations.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:13:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Megan Milard <Sixgallery@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

in your definition of the beat ethos you mentioned a recently released

documentary of Allen Ginsberg. Do you happen to know the title/distributor

of the film? I would love to get my hands on it. thanks.

megan m.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:34:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

Julie - I made the same resolution myself. Nice post. Also, Bill.

I'd like to repeat/reword a query that I had months ago in the context of

1940s-50s social pressures. I'm working on a novel that deals with an

imagined meeting between Malcolm X and Jack K in NYC in the mid-forties.

Both were hanging around uptown jazz clubs in the 40s around the time Bird &

Diz & company were inventing bop (Diz called a tune "kerouac" because he

liked the sound of the name!) and both were very influenced by jazz. The

other night, on NPR, I heard an interview with Branford Marsalis that gives

me a clue into why. He said that the best black minds in America were jazz

musicians in the 40s; what else could they do? There was no black

professional class. If you were black and wanted to see the world, you could

become a RR porter, join the service, or become a jazz musician. Malcolm and

Jack (in his rejection of white "success" football star-culture) both lived

variations of this course and got into jazz (tho of course Malcolm then went

to jail and in another direction -- but that's another topic). Both, also,

in their involvement with this black jazz culture of improvisation,

creativity & criminality (socially defined), responded to these

African-American geniuses: Bird, Diz, Monk, Lester Young, etc.

Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

me, but anything else you think of?

Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

One more thing: does anyone know if Dizzy's song "Kerouac" is available on

any CD? Which? I've never heard it.

Best,

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:43:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Grauerholz <Seward23@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat-L digest (blues)

Check out <Beneath the Underdog>, Charles Mingus -- I remember Richard

Elovich and I had William and Allen over to dinner one night, our apt. at 306

E. 6th St., Mingus was there, and Joel C. (Jody) Harris, guitarist and old

Coffeyville friend, and I played a Skip James side, and Allen asked Mingus,

apropos the falsetto of Skip J., "Now what do you think of that, Charlie?"

and Mingus said, "Well ... it da blues." Which was perfect.

You won't believe me but this is a true story.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:57:12 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas McNamee <mcnamet@EOSC.OSSHE.EDU>

Subject: Recommended reading

In-Reply-To: <960113203413_115704074@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Ted Pelton" at

Jan 13, 96 08:34:13 pm

>

> Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

> should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

> please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

> suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

> goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

> Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

> me, but anything else you think of?

is sitting in the open . . . . confused as to what to pray now, is emptiness:

confused as to what to pray now, is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from being confused as to what to pray now, indeed,

emptiness is being confused as to what to pray now' . . . (this on the first

regular wood bead) (the others follow, fingering, listening) . . . (each has

its turn) (it sometimes gets charming and amusing and yet there is that

continuous Praja canceling out all attributes) . . . (The disciple comes to

the first glassbead) . . . 'The dust in my dream last night, is emptiness of

the Ananda glassbead; the dust of my dream last night is not different from

the emptiness of the Ananda glassbead, neither is emptiness of the Ananda

glassbead different from the dust of my dream last night, indeed, emptiness

of the Ananda glassbead is the dust of my dream last night' . . . and so on.

I know this works because it's worked for me, alone, with dogs, in my Twin

Tree Grove here, every night for the past 6 weeks . . . 'The bowing weeds is

emptiness, the bowing weeds is not different from emptiness, neither is

emptiness different from the bowing weeds, indeed, emptiness is the bowing

weeds.' That nothing ever happens, is emptiness; that nothing ever happens,

is not different from emptiness; neither is emptiness different from that

nothing ever happens; indeed, emptiness is that nothing ever happens . . . "

(Letter to Gary Snyder)

Okay, I think I have typed myself silly, which I believe is the idea -- a

way to help your mind off yourself in this work. Any thoughts on all this?

The glass bead stuff makes me think of Hermann Hesse and his Glass Bead Game.

All for now.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:38 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Richard Bradbury <R.A.Bradbury%exeter.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET>

Subject: Re: greetings

Dear Dale

browsing the net and came across your name. How are things?

Best wishes

Richard Bradbury

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Collectors?

I am interested in communicating with those of you who collect Beat

lit and or ephemera. I am not a dealer.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:37:18 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@Aalborg U (AAU)" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:14:19 GMT,

Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org> wrote:

> A couple of weeks ago at a used book store I picked up a book by

Lafcadio

>Hearn called *Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things*. Most of the

>stories are from Chinese and Japanese sources. One titled "The Story of

>Mimi-Nashi-Hoichi" includes a reference to the Buddhist "Pragna-

>Paramita-Hridaya-Sutra" and includes this footnote: "Both the smaller and

>larger sutras called Pragna-Paramita (Transcendent Wisdom) have been

>translated by the late Professor Max Muller, and can be found in volume xlix.

>of *The Sacred Books of the East* ('Buddhist Mahayana Sutras'). -- Apropos of

>the magical use of the text, as described in this story, it is worth

>remarking that the subject of the sutra is the Doctrine of the Emptiness of

>Forms, -- that is to say, of the unreal character of all phenomena or noumena

>. . . . ' Form is emptiness; and emptiness is form. Emptiness is not

>different from form; form is not different from emptiness. What is form --

>that is emptiness. What is emptiness -- that is form . . . . ' "

>

> I copied that down because I liked the way it resonated in my mind.

Then a

>few days later I was reading the Kerouac section of *Big Sky Mind* and came

>across these riffs or takes that Kerouac had done on that sutra. I'm not

>trying to make a point here, I just like the way these things sound, the way

>old Jack played with the words and concepts of the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.

The letters Dan is quoting from are also in the "Selected Letters" edited

by Ann Charters, on pp. 546-550 and pp. 566-570, respectively...

Regards,

bs@AAU

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:16:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind

In a recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to

Gary Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this

was mentioned in the letter, I believe). Anyone familiar

with LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many

similarities between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed

by LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).

Dan B. also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's

_Glass Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.

I am not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared

to Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt

notable.

An interesting question occurs to me (this list may or

not be the platform for such): Just how "beat" was

Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat generation"

writers by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how

much of a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,

Dylan Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he

was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits and ideals

that the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).

Does anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would appreciate

any feedback.

Trevor D. Smith-

University at Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:42:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Big Sky Mind

In a recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to

Gary Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this

was mentioned in the letter, I believe). Anyone familiar

with LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many

similarities between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed

by LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).

Dan B. also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's

_Glass Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.

I am not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared

to Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt

notable.

An interesting question occurs to me (this list may or

not be the platform for such): Just how "beat" was

Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat generation"

writers by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how

much of a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,

Dylan Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he

was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits and ideals

that the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).

Does anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would appreciate

any feedback.

Trevor D. Smith-

University at Buffalo

German Dept.

Trevor,

I do recall a reference to Hesse in my beat readings. My recollection is

that Hesse was dismissed by the author (Kerouac?). If I can locate the

quote, I will forward it to you.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:11:40 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Aimone <joaimone@UCDAVIS.EDU>

Subject: New discussion list

Comments: To: abow0001@GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU

Please reproduce this announcement freely.

Announcement:

Discussion list for graduate students in the modern languages

E-Grad is intended principally as a sheltered but open forum for the

concerns of graduate students in the modern languages. It is maintained by

members of the Graduate Student Caucus, an allied organization of the MLA.

As an allied organization, GSC does not represent the MLA. Rather, it is a

group of its members, who are graduate students. You do not need to be a

member of the MLA or the GSC to subscribe to E-Grad.

1) Send a message to

listproc@listproc.bgsu.edu

2) Leave everything else blank except for a line in the message section

with:

subscribe e-grad firstname lastname

3) Shortly after that, you'll get a welcome message which you might want

to save.

If you have problems or questions, please feel free to e-mail me

(Alan Rea) at alan@bgnet.bgsu.edu and I'll be more than happy to help.

--

Joe Aimone

Department of English

University of California, Davis

joaimone@ucdavis.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:11:48 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Max Croasdale DD-SP <mcroasda@MADGE.COM>

Organization: Madge Networks

Subject: Hesse/On the Road

In-Reply-To: <C301C74E01560C00>

Mark, Trevor,

I've recently joined the list and thought that I might contribute to this

question. As far as I remember Kerouac does mention Hesse in 'On the

Road'. I don't know the exact quote (Steppenwolf?), but I think it

occurs pretty near the beginning of the book. I don't have a copy of

'Road' with me so I can't check but I hope this helps.

regards,

Max.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:32:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hesse and Beat

Thanks for those prompt replies in regard to Hesse

and Beat literature. I will grab a copy of _On the

Road_ and see if I can locate that quote (or any,

by Kerouac). I would indeed be surprised if Kerouac

(or any writers of the Beat Generation) dismisses

Hesse (they all seem to share common goals and ideas),

but Hesse-reception has varied greatly at different

times and in different locations, so I suppose anything

might be possible.

Hesse was incredibly well-read and I did check to see

if he had written any literary reviews (he wrote MANY!)

on any of the Beat writers. Apparently, he never did.

Hesse was not terribly productive in his final years

(he died in 1962) and wasn't really that interested in

American literature anyway. That may explain the

absence of any Beat discussion on his part. I would

bet, however, that Hesse was aware of writers like

Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs. I will continue to

search.

Keep me posted. Thanks!!

Trevor D. Smith--

University of Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:59:14 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sonja Streuber <shstreuber@UCDAVIS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

In-Reply-To: <01HZVPNEERE08WW3CQ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

What an exciting topic! Now, in contrast to Trevor, though, I would

doubt that Hesse was aware of the Beats at all. Judging from his

psychology as author and philosopher, I would rather think that he was

more into Kafka (who read him in return), which shows in the end of

_Steppenwolf_, and Brecht. And I would actually relate the orientalism

that we find in _Siddharta_ not so much to the appropriaton of Bhuddism

by the Beats, either, but rather (judging from Hesses's 19th century

affiliations) to Goethe's _West-Eastern Diwan_, or to the stuff that was

going on in the British and French Decadence at that time.

Philosophically, he (at least for me) tends more towards the 19th century

as well, and _Steppenwolf_, in many parts, seems to be a rewriting of _Thus

Spoke Zarathustra_ (Nietzsche). As for his

reviewing activities, I am sure he has reviewed many European books, but

again, I really doubt that he would have had anything to do with the

Beats. The America he knew was probably that of Kafka's stories, or that

of the Brecht-Weill connection (which means *much* earier).

The rereadings of Hesse by Kerouac, Ginsberg, and friends is, I think,

something completely different. Especially during the 60s, 70s, and

early 80s (I caught the tail end of it still), Hesse was just incredibly

popular worldwide. So, I would see his inclusion in _On the Road_ rather

as a historical/ philosophical chroncling or as an attempt of Kerouac's

to situate his book within a larger literary context. Or, and this point

has been made by various critics of Kerouac's, it points to an eclectic

nostalgia for Romanticist moments.

Couldn't keep my mouth shut on that one....

Sonjaa

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

Sonja Streuber * The arrogance associated with knowledge and

Department of English * sensation lays a blinding fog over man's eyes

University of California * by instilling in him a most flattering

Davis, CA 95616 * estimation of this faculty of knowledge.

shstreuber@ucdavis.edu * (F. Nietzsche, 1873)

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:35:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

My earlier recollection is starting to come in to focus, although I still

have not located the source. It seems to me that Kerouac was asked a

question about Hesse's view of Bhuddism in the novel Siddhartha.

Kerouac's response suggested that Hesse was not an authority on

Bhuddism. I might have read this in his Paris Review interview with

Ted Berrigan and Aram Saroyan.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:05:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

confusion in the first place. Those born in an around the beat era, were

few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very low

birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat ideas were

shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put

on them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.

The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

confusion

Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: filler: Love's Pain

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

> -Zoe LD

I enjoyed the poems, but wondering if this is a name I should

recognize? either as a list member or someone associated

w/ the beats that my ignorance doesn't know..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Keroauc/beat events

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>We're starting to get the Spring 1996 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine

>together. If anyone is planning or knows of Kerouac or beat events,

>organizations, activities, clubs, etc. we would be happy to publish that

>information for you.

[text deleted]

>Mark Hemenway

>Co-editor

>mhemenway@s1.drc.com

Who do or HOW do we get subscription information to DHARMA beat?

If you can post that here or send it personally I'd be greatful.

[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:09:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

On Jan 03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:

>"conformity criticism"

Could you define the above for me?

Thanks

Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:18:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Naropa

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Ted asked if anyone had ever attended Naropa. I took a class there about

the

>Shambhala tradition, but it too was a summer class, and I wasn't enrolled

as

>a full-time student. My feelings about Naropa are mixed; I very much

respect

>what they're trying to do, but I think they fall into the trappings many

>academic institutions do, which is letting their ego get in the way of

their

>compassion

I have a similar question on this strand.

I'm nearing my graduation as an English/Theatre major w/ an emphasis in

Film.. hehe (personal joke, though very much true). Anyhow, I'm curious to

know if: 1. Naropa offers an MA in Alternative

Fiction/Theatre/Poetry/Film,

2. IF there is even a SCHOOL that offers such a study,

and

3. IF something similar does exist, where might I find

that college?

[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:27:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@cunyvm.csd.unb.ca>

In-Reply-To: <199601112305.SAA03763@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Reeve at

da PEAK email: peak@uoguelph.ca

Guelph's Student Magazine phone: (519)824-4120 x8522

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>

> The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

> confusion

Notions of individuality? What foolishness! How could they...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:59:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Blessings of Baraka?

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, >thus

confusion

And here I thought confusion (and individuality) were natural aspects of the

human condition.

I'm glad someone has the temerity to clear this up.

Luther Jett

I mean, _really_! "Individualistic _crap_"?? What other kind of crap is

there?

LJ

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:16:30 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Glenn Davis <gdavis@SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Baraka

it occurs that out of confusion, if not driven to suicidal angst, there is

the rare moment of a solution to a problem which, forgive my

misunderstanding if that is the case, though you certainly do possess that

if not compassion, you may not have suffered

how cum?

gd

At 06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

>is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

>confusion in the first place. Those born in an around the beat era, were

>few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very low

>birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat ideas were

>shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

>

>Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

>of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put

>on them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

>confusion

>

>Damien

>

>

-SOURCES- eJournal - a division of DSO, Inc.

'Beyond Intelligence -- Truth' (tm)

http://www.dso.com/sources/

601 Van Ness Suite E3425

San Francisco, Ca 94102

Fx. 415-775-3082 V. 415-775-9785

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:10:13 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

Individuality is the result of interpretation of one's perpective

of their life experience-phenomenological retention.

Confusion is the result of not having enough information or the

defensive reaction to not accepting personal responsibility for

decision-making.

But this is only my individual interpretation given what facts

I have decided to accept in my life.

Anybody dig on "Mexico Blues"?

........................................James.......................

--

...driven to madness,starving hysterical naked...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:21:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: conformity

I'm afraid I can't agree with Damien. The pressure to conform in the 1950s was

very real. There wasn't any pressure *not* to conform. Those, like Ginsberg,

who did rebel paid a very real price for it.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:28:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Collectors?

Hi Mark:

I'm a collector of Beat lit, etc. and hope to hear from you.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:15:43 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Collectors and Hesse

If you would like to discuss beat collecting please contact me at

Fisher@Programart.com.

The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

"For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

"Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

time.

I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

JK.

Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:17:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hesse (yet again!)

Thanks much for all the responses to my Hesse query. I have

poked around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse

did, in fact, know of the Beat writers. Hesse practiced an

odd ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works

that he didn't like. Thus, it is quite possible he knew

of Kerouac and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy

of review (!). I will continue my search and keep you all

posted.

In terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--

I am still working on that too, but am sure that he had

some effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have

suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson

(see _The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.

Fred Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and

"Steppenwolf" films) claims that Kerouac, in his search

for transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I will look

into this.

Thanks again, and keep me posted. I appreciate all of

your replies.

Trevor D. Smith--

University of Buffalo

German Dept.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:38:44 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned *Steppenwolf*. At

the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

*Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

Regarding Hesse's reviews and reading, he read Thomas Wolfe's *Look Homeward

Angel* and reviewed it very favorably. Check out his book, *My Belief*, which

also has a review of *The Catcher in the Rye* and some of his writing on

Buddha and Lao- Tse. With Trevor, I'm guessing he was aware of the Beats but

was doing more gardening than reviewing at the time. I see him as sympatico

with the Beats but not much of a direct influence. For one thing I don't

think there were too many English language translations of his books until

the 1960s and '70s.

Trevor, when I get these postings they don't include e-mail address. If you

will send me yours, I'd like to correspond further on this topic. That goes

for everyone else too.

On the world wide web there is some interesting material which I found by

doing a net search for "Glass Bead Game."

Cheers.

Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:45:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Tangent and apology

At 06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

>The idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking

>is exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats

>confusion in the first place.

Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting "social learning", but are you saying we

should do just what society tells us, just to avoid confusion?

So, it's not the pressure to conform that confuses one, but the "notion" that

there is something intelligent within us that resists conformity? Your

thinking reminds me of the logic of brainwashing, in which the unfortunate

subject is eventually convinced that their resistance to the introduced

influence was the cause of their confusion; a confusion in this case

deliberately set up by the programmers for their own purposes. (Any

resemblance to society is intended)

To paraphrase a non-beat poet: to be yourself, in a world that wants you to

be someone else, is to fight the hardest fight anyone ever fought and never

stop fighting.

> Those born in an around the beat era, were

>few and far between. What I mean to say, is that there was a very >low

birth rate at the time. Due to their lack of numbers, the beat >ideas were

shunned, until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.

This does not make sense. Is it supposed to, or are you trying to send us up?

An idea is either accepted or not , by however many people.

>Even if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation

of the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing >pressure put on

them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform >in nonconformity.

Although the pressure not to conform exists, I agree with Bill Gargan

that the beats were under more pressure to conform.

>The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu

>confusion

Successful conditioning will lead to notions of certitude, however unfounded.

A certain amount of confusion is not only to be tolerated but welcomed,

especially by writers and artists and others who are trying to grow something

(a self, perhaps?). Confusion can be a learning edge. Unless you want an

artistic tradition like ancient Egypt's, that didn't change for thousands of

years. In which case we should never have had that blossoming called the beat

generation, of which at least several of us here are fond.

Jules (who apologizes for breaking one of her new years resolutions:

not to be seduced into discussions with youngsters grinding their

philosophical axes on this list, when there is plenty of beat-related stuff

to discuss)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:05:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Re: Hesse (yet again!)

At 03:17 PM 1/12/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks much for all the responses to my Hesse query. I have

>poked around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse

>did, in fact, know of the Beat writers. Hesse practiced an

>odd ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works

>that he didn't like. Thus, it is quite possible he knew

>of Kerouac and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy

>of review (!). I will continue my search and keep you all

>posted.

>

>In terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--

>I am still working on that too, but am sure that he had

>some effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have

>suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson

>(see _The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.

>

>Fred Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and

>"Steppenwolf" films) claims that Kerouac, in his search

>for transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I will look

>into this.

>

>Thanks again, and keep me posted. I appreciate all of

>your replies.

>

>

>Trevor D. Smith--

> University of Buffalo

> German Dept.

>

>

Interesting of Trevor Smith to mention Colin Wilson re his original query on

the relationship of Hesse and the Beats. In one of John Clennon Holmes (late

60`s) travel essays, I believe the one on London, Holmes, when referring

endearingly but disapprovingly to the emotional reserve for which the

British are renowned, states that the Brits felt " burned by Colin Wilson ".

So, this suggests some empathy between the Beat perspective ( and don`t

believe for a minute that Holmes didn`t embody the Beat ethos - the

authentic one - to the core) and Hesse, to whom Wilson felt a close empathy

as pointed out by Trevor Smith. Am I stretching things? Maybe, but I don`t

think so.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodney Lee Phillips <philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Collectors and Hesse

In-Reply-To: <9600128214.AA821481568@wok.programart.com> from "Mark Fisher" at

Jan 12, 96 01:15:43 pm

Mark--

In regards to your question concerning the Beats & Russian writers, see a

collection of interviews called (I believe) <The Beat Generation and the

Russian New Wave>. It was published by Ardis Press in Ann Arbor in 1990.

Sorry, but I can't remember the editor's name. The book contains some

interesting stuff on the connections between the Beats and their Russian

counterparts.

Best,

Rod Phillips

Dept of American Thought & Language

Michigan State

philli31@pilot.msu.edu

> > If you would like

to discuss beat collecting please contact me at > Fisher@Programart.com.

>

>

> The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

> in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

>

> "For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

> "Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

>

> There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

> refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

> mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

> was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

> time.

>

> I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

> JK.

>

> Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

> I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

> that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:41:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

Comments: To: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@aztec.asu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <9601120710.AA06870@aztec.asu.edu>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, JAMES ATKERSON wrote:

> ...driven to madness,starving hysterical naked...

"driven to..."--"destroyed by..."?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:59:28 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?

An exercise in poetic license.

--

...driven to madness,

starving

hysterical

naked...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:27:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Dead Beat

I recently came across a book by Hank Harrison called "The Dead Book."

For those of you not familiar with it, this book is a narrative

history of the Grateful Dead. It is also a history of the California

counterculture with lots of references to the Beats (Neal Cassady in

particular). Check it out.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:54:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Hesse and Burroughs

Hello folks.

there is, as has been mentioned, a passing reference to HH in _Literary

Outlaw_, the Ted Morgan bio of WSB.

There is no reference to HH in the Barry Miles bio of WSB.

Let's hope I'm taking good notes.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:34:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Linda Grimes <00lsgrimes@BSUVC.BSU.EDU>

Subject: The Beat Ethos

Could someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?

Thanks,

Linda Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:37:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

At 08:34 AM 1/13/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Could someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?

>

>Thanks,

>Linda Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu

>

May I suggest the following as my understanding of the true Beat ethos: it

is simply (but no less than) the upholding of the worth and distinctiveness

of the individual and his spirit in (to borrow a memorable phrase of John

Clennon Holmes) the " automated kaleidescope of our times"). Jack Kerouac

drew particularly vibrant pictures of Beatness based on American models

ranging from Neal Cassady to Gary Snyder to Harpo Marx to Charlie Parker.

True Beatness is, as Kerouac said, " sympathetic", but it is also, as Jack

always insisted, essentially apolitical. Jack rightly decried a vision of

Beats "exuding transactions", and I think Alan Ginsberg recognizes this now.

He said as much in the recent documentary film made of his life. As for

drugs, they were part of the revolution in manners which Beat culture helped

to bring about in the 50`s, but as Jack wrote they were just a fad, a symbol

- the Beats` equivalent of the Lost Generation`s champagne bottle entwined

in a silk stocking.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:20:40 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

"the magic game of glad freedom"

-- JK, *Big Sur*

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:39:55 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

I found the reference on p.24 of my Bantam paperback edition of *Big Sur*:

"Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness of that little wire

scourer, those little yellow copper things you buy in supermarkets for 10

cents, all to me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and senseless

'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which I read with a shrug . . ."

Again, I don't think there's a direct link between Hesse and the Beats, but

there is an indirect one through Thomas Wolfe and other writers. Hesse's

early novels *Peter Camenzind*, *Knulp* and *Wandering* have certain

similarities to Kerouac's work. In his book *The Novels of Hermann Hesse*,

Theodore Ziolkowski talks about "The Roamantic Bildungsroman" which

"typically displays an episodic structure that permits a broad exposure of

the hero to contemporary cultural influences while deriving its coherence

from a central focus on the inner growth of the youth toward an affirmation

of life." That's a fair description of *Look Homeward, Angel* and *On the

Road* as well as *Demian* and other Hesse novels.

By the way, I've seen reference to an early Hesse book (1906) called *On the

Road* in some translations.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:13:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Megan Milard <Sixgallery@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos

in your definition of the beat ethos you mentioned a recently released

documentary of Allen Ginsberg. Do you happen to know the title/distributor

of the film? I would love to get my hands on it. thanks.

megan m.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:34:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

Julie - I made the same resolution myself. Nice post. Also, Bill.

I'd like to repeat/reword a query that I had months ago in the context of

1940s-50s social pressures. I'm working on a novel that deals with an

imagined meeting between Malcolm X and Jack K in NYC in the mid-forties.

Both were hanging around uptown jazz clubs in the 40s around the time Bird &

Diz & company were inventing bop (Diz called a tune "kerouac" because he

liked the sound of the name!) and both were very influenced by jazz. The

other night, on NPR, I heard an interview with Branford Marsalis that gives

me a clue into why. He said that the best black minds in America were jazz

musicians in the 40s; what else could they do? There was no black

professional class. If you were black and wanted to see the world, you could

become a RR porter, join the service, or become a jazz musician. Malcolm and

Jack (in his rejection of white "success" football star-culture) both lived

variations of this course and got into jazz (tho of course Malcolm then went

to jail and in another direction -- but that's another topic). Both, also,

in their involvement with this black jazz culture of improvisation,

creativity & criminality (socially defined), responded to these

African-American geniuses: Bird, Diz, Monk, Lester Young, etc.

Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

me, but anything else you think of?

Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

One more thing: does anyone know if Dizzy's song "Kerouac" is available on

any CD? Which? I've never heard it.

Best,

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:43:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Grauerholz <Seward23@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat-L digest (blues)

Check out <Beneath the Underdog>, Charles Mingus -- I remember Richard

Elovich and I had William and Allen over to dinner one night, our apt. at 306

E. 6th St., Mingus was there, and Joel C. (Jody) Harris, guitarist and old

Coffeyville friend, and I played a Skip James side, and Allen asked Mingus,

apropos the falsetto of Skip J., "Now what do you think of that, Charlie?"

and Mingus said, "Well ... it da blues." Which was perfect.

You won't believe me but this is a true story.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:57:12 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas McNamee <mcnamet@EOSC.OSSHE.EDU>

Subject: Recommended reading

In-Reply-To: <960113203413_115704074@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Ted Pelton" at

Jan 13, 96 08:34:13 pm

>

> Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

> should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

> please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

> suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

> goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

> Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

> me, but anything else you think of?

>

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Check out, if you haven't, Norman Mailer's seminal essay, "The White

Negro"(1957) (found in his _Advertisements for Myself_ (1959)) for an

early discussion of white hipness vis a vis the American Negro experience.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:31:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Since you asked....

> Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

>should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, >but

please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as >"obvious"

>suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, >Howl.

Ted: Since you're interested in the connections between Kerouac and black

culture, I suggest reading The Subterraneans, concerning his relationship

with black beat woman "Mardou Fox" or Ilene May. One of the reasons I can

never stay mad at Kerouac over his treatment of women is the tension that

comes through in this book: Because at every point where the narrator feels

disgust at Mardou's otherness -

her womanness and blackness - there is also this deep sadness

and shame about having the disgust. (In my early feminist days, my attitude

was "so what? he was sad about everything!") Of course, there is a lot more

to the book than this..

It's one of my favorite Kerouac books ...right after Visions of Gerard, which

is so beautifully written, and can give you a feeling of how Buddhism and

Catholicism mingled in Kerouac's psyche.

(By the way, I am completely wrapped up in Charles Olson's work and bio these

days after having started with him this fall via Ed Sanders...mention this

because I know you appreciate Olson.)

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:59:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

In-Reply-To: <960113203413_115704074@mail06.mail.aol.com>

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Ted Pelton wrote:

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Might you mean black whiteness, or is that the same thing (but really,

if there can be one the other should be the opposite), or another

possibility? That is, I presume you're talking about one of these

groups taking on the other's characteristics. Thinking again, my guess

is that regardless of wording you meant the taking on of black

characteristics by whites. Is this what you meant?

> One more thing: does anyone know if Dizzy's song "Kerouac" is available on

> any CD? Which? I've never heard it.

I'm sure I've seen it on CD, but don't know what one--sorry.

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:16:43 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

On Sat.13 Jan. 1996, Ted Pelton asked about "Beat,Black White-

ness".

Is this meant to be interpreted as whites sharing a existential

phenomenology with blacks?

I think what Kerouac (among others) shared not only with the bla-

cks,the mexicans,the homeless,the mad,the dope-addicted was a

feeling of being unacculterated and disesteemed in the life and

times of 50's America.

So, in short my answer is yes there was a shared existential

phenomenological philosophy.

--

of Course life being just a Reflex you know since Everything is

Relative or to sum it ALL UP god being Dead(not to mention in

Terred) LONG LIVE that Upwardlooking Serene Illustrious and Lord

of Creation,MAN.........................................e.e.c.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:50:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dead Beat

Harrison's book about the Dead was the first, but I have always found it

disjointed and, my impression is that he exaggerated his connections with the

band. (BTW he is Courtney Love's father).

I found Rock Scully's book, "Living with the Dead" to be pretty informative,

very funny and sometimes quite sad. Scully has his detractors, but he was a

real insider. There are several references to Jack Kerouac's influence upon

Garcia. Scully's book, IMHO, is the first "real" book about Garcia -- the

first the penetrate what gradually became a formidable public relations

machine. I don't say that in a particularily negative sense. Arguably, one

of my heros, Allen Ginsburg is one of the great PR persons of the century.

His standing as a truely great poet is not a matter for serious argument (I

hope Norman Podheritz reads that and has a fit).

For the last 10 years or so, Dennis McNally, author of a fine Kerouac bio

"Desolate Angel", still in print, was the spokesperson for the Dead. I

understyand that he will write the definitive book of the latter years of the

band, and perhaps of the early years too. I hope he won't pull his punches.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:48:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: Recommended reading

>

> Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

> should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

> please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

> suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

> goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

> Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

> me, but anything else you think of?

>

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Check out, if you haven't, Norman Mailer's seminal essay, "The White

Negro"(1957) (found in his _Advertisements for Myself_ (1959)) for an

early discussion of white hipness vis a vis the American Negro experience.

Beat Culture and the New America has a chapter on the influence and

participation of Blacks in the Beat Generation. There is also an

interview with Ted Jones in one of Arthur and Kit Knights books in

which he reminices (sic) about Kerouac in Harlem.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Spit In The Ocean

This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:36:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Megan Milard <Sixgallery@AOL.COM>

Subject: DAN TERKLA

DAN TERKLA--

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU ARE STILL A MEMBER OF THIS LIST, BUT IF YOUARE PLEASE

SEND ME YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS. I CANNOT FIND YOU ANYWHERE AND I HAVE MANY

GINSBERG IDEAS I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS. HOPE TO TALK WITH YOU SOON.

MEGAN

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Searls <searls@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

Thanks!

-- Damion Searls

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:21:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: russian influences

Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:39:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Collectors and Hesse

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500 from

<philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500 Rodney Lee Phillips said:

>Mark--

>

>In regards to your question concerning the Beats & Russian writers, see a

>collection of interviews called (I believe) <The Beat Generation and the

>Russian New Wave>. It was published by Ardis Press in Ann Arbor in 1990.

>Sorry, but I can't remember the editor's name. The book contains some

>interesting stuff on the connections between the Beats and their Russian

>counterparts.

>

> Best,

>

> Rod Phillips

> Dept of American Thought & Language

> Michigan State

> philli31@pilot.msu.edu

>

>> > If you would like

>to discuss beat collecting please contact me at > Fisher@Programart.com.

>>

>>

>> The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

>> in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

>>

>> "For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

>> "Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

>>

>> There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

>> refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

>> mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

>> was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

>> time.

>>

>> I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

>> JK.

>>

>> Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

>> I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

>> that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

>>

Editors are Lauriden & Dalgard

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:34:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: russian influences

Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

If I remember correctly, Allan's mother was Russian.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:29:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Spit In The Ocean

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST from

<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST Mark Fisher said:

> This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

> supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

> the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

> ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

This is also my understanding. The Brooklyn College library lists volumes 1-6.

Don't know what happened to number 7. Suspect it wasn't completed.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:43:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 from

<searls@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 Damion Searls said:

>Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

>PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

>guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

>

>Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

>attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

>if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

>curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

>some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

>

>Thanks!

>

>-- Damion Searls

Don't know if this will be of use but there was a nice article in the New York

Times Book Review, June 26, 1994, on Bowles return to the States.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:00:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

>On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 Damion Searls said:

>>Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

>>PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

>>guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

>>

>>Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

>>attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

>>if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

>>curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

>>some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

>>

>>Thanks!

>>

>>-- Damion Searls

>Don't know if this will be of use but there was a nice article in the New York

>Times Book Review, June 26, 1994, on Bowles return to the States.

And this article was really about his returning _only_ to hear some

symphonic music he'd written... yah?

It had been a long long time since he'd been in New York... it was also

cited in _The New Yorker_ magazine.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:01:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Unsubscribe beat -l

unsubsribe beat -l

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:40:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Black & Beat

Thanks for your suggestions, one and all!

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:05:22 +1300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

acknowledged children of Jack?

Thanks, Tim.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:31:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

acknowledged children of Jack?

______________________________________________________________________________

She's currently suing the estate of her father. Jack never really officially

recognized her, but the courts did, as she collects royalties off his books.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:04:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra Greenberg <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

>Subject: Jan Kerouac

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

>

>Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

>suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

>children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

>names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

>acknowledged children of Jack?

>______________________________________________________________________________

>

>She's currently suing the estate of her father. Jack never really officially

>recognized her, but the courts did, as she collects royalties off his books.

>

Why didn't he recognize her? And on another topic, about what is the book

by Jan?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:18:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

Yes, Jan is Jack's daughter. Check out the liner notes for the Jack kerouac

boxed set (by Rhino). She writes the opening for these notes and talks about

her relationship with her father. Also, check out "Literary Kicks," Levi

Asher's Beat page on the Web. I read something there about Jan Kerouac and

the current struggles she's having with the family of Jack's widow AND there

was some info about her being barred from last summer's Beat conference in

New York even though JK was the main topic at hand.

Was the book you read by Jan "Baby Driver?" How was it?

Liz.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:34:21 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

>Yes, Jan is Jack's daughter. Check out the liner notes for the Jack kerouac

>boxed set (by Rhino). She writes the opening for these notes and talks about

>her relationship with her father. Also, check out "Literary Kicks," Levi

>Asher's Beat page on the Web. I read something there about Jan Kerouac and

>the current struggles she's having with the family of Jack's widow AND there

>was some info about her being barred from last summer's Beat conference in

>New York even though JK was the main topic at hand.

>

>Was the book you read by Jan "Baby Driver?" How was it?

>

>Liz.

I read baby Driver. I liked it. I never read train Song though.

I remember reading that part of the divorce settlement between Kerouac and

Joan Haverty his second wife and Jan kerouac's mother was that Kerouac was

to have no contact with his daughter.

Jack did seem to try and deny his paternity. This is the least flattering

aspect of his life to put it nicely. But the court settlement that

specifically forabde him to have any contact with his daughter does present

extenuating circumstances in his favor concerning his refusal to

acknolwedge his daughter as being his. Later he did meet her and spend

some time with her (very small amounts of time). I think Baby Driver

recounts these times.

Tim G

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 02:40:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <199601170305.QAA11533@host02.net.voyager.co.nz> from "Tim" at

Jan 17, 96 04:05:22 pm

There was an article in the New York times about the children of the

beats from i think November 5th or thereabouts -- jan kerouac was

interviewed first, followed by talks with simon carr, parker kaufman, a

couple of cassady's kids, one of diprima's daughters (who else on this

list enjoys diprima -- anything obtainable besides pieces of a song??)

and some other hapless offspring -- the article was showing the legacy

of the beats in terms of their own children and from what i read of it,

IT WAS FUCKING DEPRESSING -- everyone on the list should read this now

that i think about it -- i wanted to hate parker kaufman for his lack of

respect for his father and his art,because kaufman has wrapped his words

around my heart and healed it thru SQUEEZING, whatever that means, but by

the end of the article

when you find out parker(named after charlie) is penniless and supporting

his mother and the

interviewer gave him ten bucks and a 'nice talking to you' it was just

sad and did give another depressing insight into our society - that, plus

bob kaufman's son was wearing a paula abdul shirt THAT'S ALL I'LL SAY

ABOUT THAT because that genuinely frightened me(for some reason) --

straying back to the legacy of the beats, does anyone have suggestions

for books about the beat legacy that actually have some relevance and are

not just drooling over the writers --

this is for ted pelton(i think) concerning reading suggestions -- there

is an antholgy called "black fire" edited by amiri baraka himself that

you should definitely look into -- obtainable thru library only i'm sure

-- all by basically contemporary black writers --

gratuitous spontaneous poetry add-on since it seems so fun when some of

you do it --

the pale blue wombs

are blown away,

having collapsed under

the weight of their

weary children,

so fragile in this

violent night,

their shoulders trembling

for the cold earth

and the warmth of an

answer, the green day

so very far away,

pulled back over the

gray horizon,

a retracted claw that

brought the comfort

of a healing wound

will

u.of.penna.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:25:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Kids

Yes, the interviews with the children of the beats in the New York Times

was depressing. Checkout Levi Asher's interview with John Cassady on his

LIT KICKS web page for a diferent point of view.

Mark H.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:59:21 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@Aalborg U (AAU)" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: BeatLit URLs

This is an attempt to generate an e-mail directory file of WWW-documents

concerning Beat Generation literature and life. All the URLs listed have

been screened for content and found to contain something substantial of

interest. All URLs were operational on Jan 17, 1996.

If your favourite URL is not here, e-mail me and tell me about it. With

2000 search results for a ALTA VISTA search for "Kerouac" alone I'm sure to

have missed a lot... :-)

I hope to update and repost this file to BEAT-L regularly, but only if it

is of use to someone, so tell me what you think! The idea is to provide

quality, functional URLs so people can go directly where they can find good

stuff, and not have to wade through garbage thrown up by search engines...

I'll be adding a section of homepages with Beat interest next. Send me your

URL if you want to be on it.

For WWW-impaired, e-mail only users: I have some of these files as

text-only e-mailable chunks. Let me know if you would like anything in that

format.

Have fun reading & viewing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL BEAT INTEREST:

Levi Asher's Literary Kicks:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

Epistrophy: Jazz in 20th Century Literature:

http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/

Village Voice (40th Anniversary):

http://www.villagevoice.com/birthday/50ginsbu.htm

The Whitney Museum, New York exhibit on Beat culture:

http://www.echonyc.com/~whitney/WMAA/BEATS/mainpage.html

The SF Chronicle Beat section, Sunday 11/26/95:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?Pink:PK:/chronicle/

archive/1995/11/26

Beats and publishing:

http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/UnspeakableVisions/page1.html

Route 66 & The Beats:

http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_generation.html

http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/byte_generation.html

Steve's Beat Page:

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~jd4716/beats/index.html

Dharma Beats Cosmic Baseball:

http://www.clark.net/pubs/ace/95beats.html

Trekking the Beat Trail:

http://www.jpcom.com/euclid/beat.html

Addicted to Noise piece:

http://www.addict.com/ATN/issues/1.05/Features/Beatnik_Books/

--------------------------------------------------------------------

INDIVIDUAL AUTHORS:

LitKicks:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/People/

KEROUAC:

Audio files of Kerouac:

http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/~wiegand/jk.html

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/ ~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

Penguin Kerouac CD-Rom:

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/titles/kerouac/

Short bio:

http://www.lehigh.edu/~nat2/kerouac.html

Kerouac resources overview:

http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/authors/kerouac.html

GINSBERG:

Interviews:

http://www.well.com/user/tricycle/beatgeneration.html

http://www.iuma.com/Seconds/html/issue28/Allen_Ginsburg.html

BURROUGHS:

The Burroughs File:

http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/index.html

Unofficial Burroughs Homepage, part of web-zine Firehorse,

includes etexts:

http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html

Another Burroughs bibliography and info page:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~garms/zach/b1.html

Reality's Burroughs page w. quotes, sounds, links:

http://mugwump.ucsd.edu/bkeeley/play-stuff/WSB.html

Article: "Bring the Noise! William S. Burroughs and Music in the Expanded

Field" by Brent Wood, from Postmodern Culture:

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/review-1.195.html

E-text:

http://fido.wps.com/texts/index.html

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/ehn/Web/release/reading-list.html

Page based on "The Western Lands":

http://muon.qrc.com/mdavis/wsb/wsb.html

Chapter on Burroughs as part of Steven Shapiro's "Doom Patrols" book of

"theoretical fiction about postmodernism.":

http://dhalgren.english.washington.edu/~steve/ch10.html

SNYDER:

Intro:

http://sln.fi.edu/river/snyder.html

Poems:

http://www.wnet.org/lol/snyder.html

KESEY:

The Far Gone Interview:

http://www.imv.com/lit/fargone/kesey.htm

The "unofficial" home page of Ken Kesey (Pictures only, so far):

http://www.peak.org/~clapp/kesey/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Help me barbecue the bugs in this list!

Regards,

bs@AAU

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

NB! This e-mail address will be inactive from Feb 1 to Aug 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:29:12 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vincent Yeow Chieh Pang <akir1@SINGNET.COM.SG>

Subject: Diprima

>couple of cassady's kids, one of diprima's daughters (who else on this

>list enjoys diprima -- anything obtainable besides pieces of a song??)

>and some other hapless offspring -- the article was showing the legacy

I enjoyed Diprima's work quite a bit. Especially the ones titled "Three

Laments" & "Poetics" or something to those effect. Which is your fave?

- Vincent -

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 22:33:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Arno Selhorst <uzs405@IBM.RHRZ.UNI-BONN.DE>

Subject: Re: BeatLit URLs

Hi!

Awesome links there. I just put up my small homepage today and I also

started to gather some more beat links among other literature links. Thx a

lot for submitting yours to the list! I=B4ll try to put them on my homepage

next week. If there are any dead links I=B4ll let you know.

Bye and thanks...

...Arno Selhorst

Ps: For those of you interested. my homepage is

at--->http://ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de/~uzs405/index.html

But lemme repeat: I just put it up today and it=B4s under heavy

construction!!! Levi Asher, I linked your literary kicks homepage to

my homepage, that=B4s ok? I forgot to put in your name though...I=B4ll=

change

that in a few days.

*If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:48:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: russian influences

>Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly

Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's

influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the

hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some

not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

>If I remember correctly, Allan's mother was Russian.

Naomi Ginsberg, Allen's mother was born in Russia. GInsberg was certainly

influenced

by Mayakovsky (See his annotations to Howl). Mayakovsky in his own turn was a

heir of

Whitman in Russian poetry. He was strongly influenced by Russian translations

of Whitman

by Balmont and Chukovsky. I would despute Yesenin influence though. In my

opinion, he and Ginsberg hardly have anything in common.

Although Allen does not know Russian he always's been very interested in

Russian culture and has personally known many leading poets from the Russian

Beat, which is still, basically, unknown to the West. Ginsberg even said once

in our conversation that he identifies himself as a "russian poet in exile".

It was a joke, of course, but it shows poet's interest in his roots.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:43:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Sterling Lord

Sterling Lord was Jack Kerouac`s literary agent from the early 50`s until

Jack`s death in 1969. I find it odd that (from what I can tell) so little

has been written about Mr. Lord, what he thought of his famous client both

as man and writer, whether his opinions in this respect have changed over

the years, and so forth. Accordingly, does anyone know, first, whether Mr.

Lord is still living; if he is, how old is he ( I would reckon around 75);

has he ever written a reminiscence of Kerouac or of any other Beat writers

he was (is?) associated with? Thanks for any information supplied.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:25:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: To: Beat Net <beat-l%cunyvm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu>

With all due respect to your wonderful net-site, I am finding myself

inundated with mail and need to unsubscribe from Beat-Net. I've tried to

do this in many different ways and now am looking for a WAY OUT!!!

Please tell me how to unsubscribe successfully.

-- Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:14:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: OTR Reading

Sorry for my recent absence, my AOL has been acting up and I

hadn't been able to access my mail for a while -- not to mention

hours of shoveling snow. I hope that people who have been

reading OTR on my urging have been getting along well. I haven't

had time to put my thoughts into any coherent form but here are

some ramblings.

Kerouac's contention that OTR is a spiritual book -- first and

foremost -- is borne out in my recent reading. The general lack

of understanding in the press and public at that time of the type

of spirituality he was talking about can certainly be understood

-- much like the misinterpretation of Baudelaire's "Flowers of

Evil" in his time.

Certainly a common evolution both on a literary and a personal

level is to go from a drug-induced quest to a more pure spiritual

quest for enlightenment -- certainly what many of us went through

in the 60s and 70s a la Herman Hesse -- and recent posts on the

subject.

Section 10 of part two, which begins on page 171 of the Penguin

edition, appears to be one of the most important spiritual sections of

the book -- also certainly important in outlining his own

romantic vision and literary agenda. He has "...a whole host of

memories leading back to 1750 in England...," which is the

approximate beginning of the Romantic Era.

The "revolutionary" nature of Kerouac has to always be seen in

the context of the spiritual -- and as spiritual quests are

individual they do not lead to a final political goal. He

certainly makes political comments in the book -- I'm too lazy

right now to gather them together, but they are more in the

nature of asides. What became political was the reaction of

straight (non-Beat) society -- one of the best scenes is when Sal

and Dean are in the back seat and the uptight straights (although

one is gay) are in the front worrying about where they will stay

etc.

America is a nation of non-spiritual people who mistake going to

church on Sunday for connectedness to spiritual being -- any

notion that challenges this is viewed as heretical and

revolutionary -- probably today as much as any time since the

50's -- which is probably why there is a resurgence of Beat

popularity among the rebellious young and the conflicted middle-

agers such as myself.

I remember that someone on the list had said they had seen a

screenplay of OTR that did not include the Mexico section. I

can't imagine that any movie version would leave out Mexico. If

I were to attempt a screenplay I would write that first and work

my way backward using everything else to foreshadow it -- with

the image of the white horse coming out of the night and walking

next to the sleeping body of Dean/Neal as the climax of the

movie. But what do I know -- I hope the final movie is not a big

disappointment.

Happy New Year

Perry Lindstrom

P.S. Next week Howard Park and I start our course at the

Smithsonian, with OTR being the topic of the first night -- we

will no doubt keep the list posted on how things go.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:07:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and Jan and

her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting across

the

street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference panel.

The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary works

and

did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that is

taking place.

The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her followers

were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole conference

including walking tours and panel discussions.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:09:54 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Black & Beat

Ted,

One more suggestion. There is a book by Al Young called *Things Ain't What

They Used To Be* (Berkeley: Creative Arts, 1987). It is volume three in his

trilogy of "musical memoirs". The final section is called "Jazz and Letters."

It's an excellent discussion among Young, Larry Kart, and Michael S. Harper

about cross-influences among painters, writers and musicians. Highly

recommended.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:16:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sara Ellefson <Sara_Ellefson_at_PO.CHI08@SMTPLINK.INFORES.COM>

Subject: How to get off . . .

You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF BEAT-L"

command to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (or LISTSERV@CUNYVM.BITNET).

_

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:57:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Todd Bauer <dbe345@LULU.ACNS.NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spit In The Ocean

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96011614314182@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at Jan

16, 96 02:29:06 pm

Yeah there was no issue #7, I've talked with Ken Babbs and it ceased due to a

lack of interest and funding. All six published issues can be purchased from

Key-z productions.>

> On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST Mark Fisher said:

> > This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

> > supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

> > the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

> > ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

>

> This is also my understanding. The Brooklyn College library lists volumes

1-6.

> Don't know what happened to number 7. Suspect it wasn't completed.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:39:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and Jan and

her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting across

the

street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference panel.

The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary works

and

did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that is

taking place.

The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her followers

were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole conference

including walking tours and panel discussions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see any reason why Jan should be invited to attend a conference on

her father. She only met the man for about fifteen minutes of his life

and isn't any kind of scholar.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Should she be there?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:15:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ralph Virgo <rvirgo@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

You wrote:

>

>----------------------------Original

message----------------------------

>From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

>Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

>

>You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and

Jan and

>her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting

across

>the

>street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference

panel.

>The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary

works

>and

>did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that

is

>taking place.

>The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her

followers

>were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole

conference

>including walking tours and panel discussions.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

>

>I don't see any reason why Jan should be invited to attend a

conference on

>her father. She only met the man for about fifteen minutes of his

life

>and isn't any kind of scholar.

>

>Does anyone agree/disagree? Should she be there?

The issue was not "was she invited to attend." No one needs an

invitation to attend; it was an open-to-the-public conference.

The issue, and a very real one, is that she was not allowed to

participate on panels.

I, for one, think that she definitely should have been included on

panels.

She is in fact a scholar as far as regards her father's work. She has

presented numerous times, and knows much about his writing. Granted,

she is not a formal scholar, as in having an academic appointment. But

then, neither are Ray Bremster, Lee Renaldo, Andy Clausen, nor a number

of other panel members formal scholars.

Jan was excluded from the conference because she wanted to talk about

her and Gerry Nicosia's efforts to have her father's collected papers

kept intact and placed in a library. The benefit to me, you, and other

people interested in his writing is that the work would be available to

all for research purposes.

You may want to check out Jan's Open Letter to NYU, as reprinted in

Inside the Kerouac Legacy

(http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/IKL.html)

Ralph Virgo

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:23:39 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

In-Reply-To: <30D9CE61@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

tanks mon....of course 'tis so, as i'm a potate in disguise and can

>

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Check out, if you haven't, Norman Mailer's seminal essay, "The White

Negro"(1957) (found in his _Advertisements for Myself_ (1959)) for an

early discussion of white hipness vis a vis the American Negro experience.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:31:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Since you asked....

> Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

>should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, >but

please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as >"obvious"

>suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, >Howl.

Ted: Since you're interested in the connections between Kerouac and black

culture, I suggest reading The Subterraneans, concerning his relationship

with black beat woman "Mardou Fox" or Ilene May. One of the reasons I can

never stay mad at Kerouac over his treatment of women is the tension that

comes through in this book: Because at every point where the narrator feels

disgust at Mardou's otherness -

her womanness and blackness - there is also this deep sadness

and shame about having the disgust. (In my early feminist days, my attitude

was "so what? he was sad about everything!") Of course, there is a lot more

to the book than this..

It's one of my favorite Kerouac books ...right after Visions of Gerard, which

is so beautifully written, and can give you a feeling of how Buddhism and

Catholicism mingled in Kerouac's psyche.

(By the way, I am completely wrapped up in Charles Olson's work and bio these

days after having started with him this fall via Ed Sanders...mention this

because I know you appreciate Olson.)

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:59:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

In-Reply-To: <960113203413_115704074@mail06.mail.aol.com>

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Ted Pelton wrote:

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Might you mean black whiteness, or is that the same thing (but really,

if there can be one the other should be the opposite), or another

possibility? That is, I presume you're talking about one of these

groups taking on the other's characteristics. Thinking again, my guess

is that regardless of wording you meant the taking on of black

characteristics by whites. Is this what you meant?

> One more thing: does anyone know if Dizzy's song "Kerouac" is available on

> any CD? Which? I've never heard it.

I'm sure I've seen it on CD, but don't know what one--sorry.

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:16:43 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12 Jan 1996

On Sat.13 Jan. 1996, Ted Pelton asked about "Beat,Black White-

ness".

Is this meant to be interpreted as whites sharing a existential

phenomenology with blacks?

I think what Kerouac (among others) shared not only with the bla-

cks,the mexicans,the homeless,the mad,the dope-addicted was a

feeling of being unacculterated and disesteemed in the life and

times of 50's America.

So, in short my answer is yes there was a shared existential

phenomenological philosophy.

--

of Course life being just a Reflex you know since Everything is

Relative or to sum it ALL UP god being Dead(not to mention in

Terred) LONG LIVE that Upwardlooking Serene Illustrious and Lord

of Creation,MAN.........................................e.e.c.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:50:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dead Beat

Harrison's book about the Dead was the first, but I have always found it

disjointed and, my impression is that he exaggerated his connections with the

band. (BTW he is Courtney Love's father).

I found Rock Scully's book, "Living with the Dead" to be pretty informative,

very funny and sometimes quite sad. Scully has his detractors, but he was a

real insider. There are several references to Jack Kerouac's influence upon

Garcia. Scully's book, IMHO, is the first "real" book about Garcia -- the

first the penetrate what gradually became a formidable public relations

machine. I don't say that in a particularily negative sense. Arguably, one

of my heros, Allen Ginsburg is one of the great PR persons of the century.

His standing as a truely great poet is not a matter for serious argument (I

hope Norman Podheritz reads that and has a fit).

For the last 10 years or so, Dennis McNally, author of a fine Kerouac bio

"Desolate Angel", still in print, was the spokesperson for the Dead. I

understyand that he will write the definitive book of the latter years of the

band, and perhaps of the early years too. I hope he won't pull his punches.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:48:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: Recommended reading

>

> Ok, my question. Is there anything that comes to mind that you think I

> should be reading, listers? I've been mining this territory already, but

> please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"

> suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This

> goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,

> Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for

> me, but anything else you think of?

>

> Is there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?

> Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?

Check out, if you haven't, Norman Mailer's seminal essay, "The White

Negro"(1957) (found in his _Advertisements for Myself_ (1959)) for an

early discussion of white hipness vis a vis the American Negro experience.

Beat Culture and the New America has a chapter on the influence and

participation of Blacks in the Beat Generation. There is also an

interview with Ted Jones in one of Arthur and Kit Knights books in

which he reminices (sic) about Kerouac in Harlem.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Spit In The Ocean

This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:36:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Megan Milard <Sixgallery@AOL.COM>

Subject: DAN TERKLA

DAN TERKLA--

I'M NOT SURE IF YOU ARE STILL A MEMBER OF THIS LIST, BUT IF YOUARE PLEASE

SEND ME YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS. I CANNOT FIND YOU ANYWHERE AND I HAVE MANY

GINSBERG IDEAS I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS. HOPE TO TALK WITH YOU SOON.

MEGAN

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Searls <searls@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

Thanks!

-- Damion Searls

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:21:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: russian influences

Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:39:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Collectors and Hesse

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500 from

<philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500 Rodney Lee Phillips said:

>Mark--

>

>In regards to your question concerning the Beats & Russian writers, see a

>collection of interviews called (I believe) <The Beat Generation and the

>Russian New Wave>. It was published by Ardis Press in Ann Arbor in 1990.

>Sorry, but I can't remember the editor's name. The book contains some

>interesting stuff on the connections between the Beats and their Russian

>counterparts.

>

> Best,

>

> Rod Phillips

> Dept of American Thought & Language

> Michigan State

> philli31@pilot.msu.edu

>

>> > If you would like

>to discuss beat collecting please contact me at > Fisher@Programart.com.

>>

>>

>> The following quote is from "Dharma Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first

>> in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p. 197 (reference is to Ginsberg):

>>

>> "For his study of Buddhism he examined Herman Hesse's novel,

>> "Siddhartha" which he judged to be, nowhere in particular."

>>

>> There is also a passing reference to HH in Literary Outlaw, but it

>> refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia Foundation based on a group of

>> mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion

>> was not expressed, he apparently did not care much for Leary at the

>> time.

>>

>> I could not find a reference to HH in the Paris Review interview of

>> JK.

>>

>> Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters, book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?

>> I found some interesting similarities between the Russian writers of

>> that era and the Beats. Has anyone written about this influence?

>>

Editors are Lauriden & Dalgard

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:34:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: russian influences

Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

If I remember correctly, Allan's mother was Russian.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:29:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Spit In The Ocean

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST from

<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST Mark Fisher said:

> This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

> supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

> the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

> ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

This is also my understanding. The Brooklyn College library lists volumes 1-6.

Don't know what happened to number 7. Suspect it wasn't completed.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:43:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 from

<searls@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 Damion Searls said:

>Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

>PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

>guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

>

>Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

>attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

>if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

>curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

>some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

>

>Thanks!

>

>-- Damion Searls

Don't know if this will be of use but there was a nice article in the New York

Times Book Review, June 26, 1994, on Bowles return to the States.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:00:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query re: Paul Bowles's health

>On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:22:11 -0800 Damion Searls said:

>>Hello everyone. I'm a new subscriber -- saw your paragraph ad in the new

>>PMLA -- and I thought that someone out there might be up on

>>guru-to-the-Beats Paul Bowles.

>>

>>Last I heard, he had returned from Tangiers to the U.S. for medical

>>attention. Does anyone know what it was? how serious? if he's still alive?

>>if he's back in Tangiers? where in the U.S. he was/is? I'm partly just

>>curious, partly thinking of writing to him and trying to interview him for

>>some work I'm doing on Paul and Jane Bowles (health permitting, obviously).

>>

>>Thanks!

>>

>>-- Damion Searls

>Don't know if this will be of use but there was a nice article in the New York

>Times Book Review, June 26, 1994, on Bowles return to the States.

And this article was really about his returning _only_ to hear some

symphonic music he'd written... yah?

It had been a long long time since he'd been in New York... it was also

cited in _The New Yorker_ magazine.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:01:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Unsubscribe beat -l

unsubsribe beat -l

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:40:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Black & Beat

Thanks for your suggestions, one and all!

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:05:22 +1300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

acknowledged children of Jack?

Thanks, Tim.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:31:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

acknowledged children of Jack?

______________________________________________________________________________

She's currently suing the estate of her father. Jack never really officially

recognized her, but the courts did, as she collects royalties off his books.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:04:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra Greenberg <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

>Subject: Jan Kerouac

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

>

>Recently I came across a book by Jan Kerouac. The notes on the cover

>suggested she is the daughter of Jack. Is this true? I was unaware of any

>children in Jack's closet. Does anyone know what she is doing now and the

>names of anything else she has written? Finally are there any other

>acknowledged children of Jack?

>______________________________________________________________________________

>

>She's currently suing the estate of her father. Jack never really officially

>recognized her, but the courts did, as she collects royalties off his books.

>

Why didn't he recognize her? And on another topic, about what is the book

by Jan?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:18:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

Yes, Jan is Jack's daughter. Check out the liner notes for the Jack kerouac

boxed set (by Rhino). She writes the opening for these notes and talks about

her relationship with her father. Also, check out "Literary Kicks," Levi

Asher's Beat page on the Web. I read something there about Jan Kerouac and

the current struggles she's having with the family of Jack's widow AND there

was some info about her being barred from last summer's Beat conference in

New York even though JK was the main topic at hand.

Was the book you read by Jan "Baby Driver?" How was it?

Liz.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:34:21 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

>Yes, Jan is Jack's daughter. Check out the liner notes for the Jack kerouac

>boxed set (by Rhino). She writes the opening for these notes and talks about

>her relationship with her father. Also, check out "Literary Kicks," Levi

>Asher's Beat page on the Web. I read something there about Jan Kerouac and

>the current struggles she's having with the family of Jack's widow AND there

>was some info about her being barred from last summer's Beat conference in

>New York even though JK was the main topic at hand.

>

>Was the book you read by Jan "Baby Driver?" How was it?

>

>Liz.

I read baby Driver. I liked it. I never read train Song though.

I remember reading that part of the divorce settlement between Kerouac and

Joan Haverty his second wife and Jan kerouac's mother was that Kerouac was

to have no contact with his daughter.

Jack did seem to try and deny his paternity. This is the least flattering

aspect of his life to put it nicely. But the court settlement that

specifically forabde him to have any contact with his daughter does present

extenuating circumstances in his favor concerning his refusal to

acknolwedge his daughter as being his. Later he did meet her and spend

some time with her (very small amounts of time). I think Baby Driver

recounts these times.

Tim G

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 02:40:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <199601170305.QAA11533@host02.net.voyager.co.nz> from "Tim" at

Jan 17, 96 04:05:22 pm

There was an article in the New York times about the children of the

beats from i think November 5th or thereabouts -- jan kerouac was

interviewed first, followed by talks with simon carr, parker kaufman, a

couple of cassady's kids, one of diprima's daughters (who else on this

list enjoys diprima -- anything obtainable besides pieces of a song??)

and some other hapless offspring -- the article was showing the legacy

of the beats in terms of their own children and from what i read of it,

IT WAS FUCKING DEPRESSING -- everyone on the list should read this now

that i think about it -- i wanted to hate parker kaufman for his lack of

respect for his father and his art,because kaufman has wrapped his words

around my heart and healed it thru SQUEEZING, whatever that means, but by

the end of the article

when you find out parker(named after charlie) is penniless and supporting

his mother and the

interviewer gave him ten bucks and a 'nice talking to you' it was just

sad and did give another depressing insight into our society - that, plus

bob kaufman's son was wearing a paula abdul shirt THAT'S ALL I'LL SAY

ABOUT THAT because that genuinely frightened me(for some reason) --

straying back to the legacy of the beats, does anyone have suggestions

for books about the beat legacy that actually have some relevance and are

not just drooling over the writers --

this is for ted pelton(i think) concerning reading suggestions -- there

is an antholgy called "black fire" edited by amiri baraka himself that

you should definitely look into -- obtainable thru library only i'm sure

-- all by basically contemporary black writers --

gratuitous spontaneous poetry add-on since it seems so fun when some of

you do it --

the pale blue wombs

are blown away,

having collapsed under

the weight of their

weary children,

so fragile in this

violent night,

their shoulders trembling

for the cold earth

and the warmth of an

answer, the green day

so very far away,

pulled back over the

gray horizon,

a retracted claw that

brought the comfort

of a healing wound

will

u.of.penna.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:25:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Kids

Yes, the interviews with the children of the beats in the New York Times

was depressing. Checkout Levi Asher's interview with John Cassady on his

LIT KICKS web page for a diferent point of view.

Mark H.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:59:21 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@Aalborg U (AAU)" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: BeatLit URLs

This is an attempt to generate an e-mail directory file of WWW-documents

concerning Beat Generation literature and life. All the URLs listed have

been screened for content and found to contain something substantial of

interest. All URLs were operational on Jan 17, 1996.

If your favourite URL is not here, e-mail me and tell me about it. With

2000 search results for a ALTA VISTA search for "Kerouac" alone I'm sure to

have missed a lot... :-)

I hope to update and repost this file to BEAT-L regularly, but only if it

is of use to someone, so tell me what you think! The idea is to provide

quality, functional URLs so people can go directly where they can find good

stuff, and not have to wade through garbage thrown up by search engines...

I'll be adding a section of homepages with Beat interest next. Send me your

URL if you want to be on it.

For WWW-impaired, e-mail only users: I have some of these files as

text-only e-mailable chunks. Let me know if you would like anything in that

format.

Have fun reading & viewing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL BEAT INTEREST:

Levi Asher's Literary Kicks:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

Epistrophy: Jazz in 20th Century Literature:

http://ie.uwindsor.ca/jazz/

Village Voice (40th Anniversary):

http://www.villagevoice.com/birthday/50ginsbu.htm

The Whitney Museum, New York exhibit on Beat culture:

http://www.echonyc.com/~whitney/WMAA/BEATS/mainpage.html

The SF Chronicle Beat section, Sunday 11/26/95:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?Pink:PK:/chronicle/

archive/1995/11/26

Beats and publishing:

http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/~hayward/UnspeakableVisions/page1.html

Route 66 & The Beats:

http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/beat_generation.html

http://www.virgin.fr/virgin/html/us/nostalgia/route66/byte_generation.html

Steve's Beat Page:

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~jd4716/beats/index.html

Dharma Beats Cosmic Baseball:

http://www.clark.net/pubs/ace/95beats.html

Trekking the Beat Trail:

http://www.jpcom.com/euclid/beat.html

Addicted to Noise piece:

http://www.addict.com/ATN/issues/1.05/Features/Beatnik_Books/

--------------------------------------------------------------------

INDIVIDUAL AUTHORS:

LitKicks:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/People/

KEROUAC:

Audio files of Kerouac:

http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/~wiegand/jk.html

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/ ~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

Penguin Kerouac CD-Rom:

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/titles/kerouac/

Short bio:

http://www.lehigh.edu/~nat2/kerouac.html

Kerouac resources overview:

http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/authors/kerouac.html

GINSBERG:

Interviews:

http://www.well.com/user/tricycle/beatgeneration.html

http://www.iuma.com/Seconds/html/issue28/Allen_Ginsburg.html

BURROUGHS:

The Burroughs File:

http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/index.html

Unofficial Burroughs Homepage, part of web-zine Firehorse,

includes etexts:

http://www.peg.apc.org/~firehorse/wsb/wsb.html

Another Burroughs bibliography and info page:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~garms/zach/b1.html

Reality's Burroughs page w. quotes, sounds, links:

http://mugwump.ucsd.edu/bkeeley/play-stuff/WSB.html

Article: "Bring the Noise! William S. Burroughs and Music in the Expanded

Field" by Brent Wood, from Postmodern Culture:

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/review-1.195.html

E-text:

http://fido.wps.com/texts/index.html

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/ehn/Web/release/reading-list.html

Page based on "The Western Lands":

http://muon.qrc.com/mdavis/wsb/wsb.html

Chapter on Burroughs as part of Steven Shapiro's "Doom Patrols" book of

"theoretical fiction about postmodernism.":

http://dhalgren.english.washington.edu/~steve/ch10.html

SNYDER:

Intro:

http://sln.fi.edu/river/snyder.html

Poems:

http://www.wnet.org/lol/snyder.html

KESEY:

The Far Gone Interview:

http://www.imv.com/lit/fargone/kesey.htm

The "unofficial" home page of Ken Kesey (Pictures only, so far):

http://www.peak.org/~clapp/kesey/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Help me barbecue the bugs in this list!

Regards,

bs@AAU

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

NB! This e-mail address will be inactive from Feb 1 to Aug 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:29:12 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vincent Yeow Chieh Pang <akir1@SINGNET.COM.SG>

Subject: Diprima

>couple of cassady's kids, one of diprima's daughters (who else on this

>list enjoys diprima -- anything obtainable besides pieces of a song??)

>and some other hapless offspring -- the article was showing the legacy

I enjoyed Diprima's work quite a bit. Especially the ones titled "Three

Laments" & "Poetics" or something to those effect. Which is your fave?

- Vincent -

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 22:33:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Arno Selhorst <uzs405@IBM.RHRZ.UNI-BONN.DE>

Subject: Re: BeatLit URLs

Hi!

Awesome links there. I just put up my small homepage today and I also

started to gather some more beat links among other literature links. Thx a

lot for submitting yours to the list! I=B4ll try to put them on my homepage

next week. If there are any dead links I=B4ll let you know.

Bye and thanks...

...Arno Selhorst

Ps: For those of you interested. my homepage is

at--->http://ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de/~uzs405/index.html

But lemme repeat: I just put it up today and it=B4s under heavy

construction!!! Levi Asher, I linked your literary kicks homepage to

my homepage, that=B4s ok? I forgot to put in your name though...I=B4ll=

change

that in a few days.

*If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:48:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: russian influences

>Ginsberg has certainly been influenced by Russian Poetry, particularly

Mayakovs

ky and Yesenin. He talks about these influences as well as Whitman's

influence

on European poetry in a course he sometimes gives at Brooklyn College on the

hi

story of the Beat Generation. If I remember correctly, there are also some

not

es on these influences in the annotated edition of Howl.

>If I remember correctly, Allan's mother was Russian.

Naomi Ginsberg, Allen's mother was born in Russia. GInsberg was certainly

influenced

by Mayakovsky (See his annotations to Howl). Mayakovsky in his own turn was a

heir of

Whitman in Russian poetry. He was strongly influenced by Russian translations

of Whitman

by Balmont and Chukovsky. I would despute Yesenin influence though. In my

opinion, he and Ginsberg hardly have anything in common.

Although Allen does not know Russian he always's been very interested in

Russian culture and has personally known many leading poets from the Russian

Beat, which is still, basically, unknown to the West. Ginsberg even said once

in our conversation that he identifies himself as a "russian poet in exile".

It was a joke, of course, but it shows poet's interest in his roots.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:43:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gary Gillman <garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>

Subject: Sterling Lord

Sterling Lord was Jack Kerouac`s literary agent from the early 50`s until

Jack`s death in 1969. I find it odd that (from what I can tell) so little

has been written about Mr. Lord, what he thought of his famous client both

as man and writer, whether his opinions in this respect have changed over

the years, and so forth. Accordingly, does anyone know, first, whether Mr.

Lord is still living; if he is, how old is he ( I would reckon around 75);

has he ever written a reminiscence of Kerouac or of any other Beat writers

he was (is?) associated with? Thanks for any information supplied.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:25:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: paul a weinfield <pweinfie@INDIANA.EDU>

Comments: To: Beat Net <beat-l%cunyvm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu>

With all due respect to your wonderful net-site, I am finding myself

inundated with mail and need to unsubscribe from Beat-Net. I've tried to

do this in many different ways and now am looking for a WAY OUT!!!

Please tell me how to unsubscribe successfully.

-- Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:14:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: OTR Reading

Sorry for my recent absence, my AOL has been acting up and I

hadn't been able to access my mail for a while -- not to mention

hours of shoveling snow. I hope that people who have been

reading OTR on my urging have been getting along well. I haven't

had time to put my thoughts into any coherent form but here are

some ramblings.

Kerouac's contention that OTR is a spiritual book -- first and

foremost -- is borne out in my recent reading. The general lack

of understanding in the press and public at that time of the type

of spirituality he was talking about can certainly be understood

-- much like the misinterpretation of Baudelaire's "Flowers of

Evil" in his time.

Certainly a common evolution both on a literary and a personal

level is to go from a drug-induced quest to a more pure spiritual

quest for enlightenment -- certainly what many of us went through

in the 60s and 70s a la Herman Hesse -- and recent posts on the

subject.

Section 10 of part two, which begins on page 171 of the Penguin

edition, appears to be one of the most important spiritual sections of

the book -- also certainly important in outlining his own

romantic vision and literary agenda. He has "...a whole host of

memories leading back to 1750 in England...," which is the

approximate beginning of the Romantic Era.

The "revolutionary" nature of Kerouac has to always be seen in

the context of the spiritual -- and as spiritual quests are

individual they do not lead to a final political goal. He

certainly makes political comments in the book -- I'm too lazy

right now to gather them together, but they are more in the

nature of asides. What became political was the reaction of

straight (non-Beat) society -- one of the best scenes is when Sal

and Dean are in the back seat and the uptight straights (although

one is gay) are in the front worrying about where they will stay

etc.

America is a nation of non-spiritual people who mistake going to

church on Sunday for connectedness to spiritual being -- any

notion that challenges this is viewed as heretical and

revolutionary -- probably today as much as any time since the

50's -- which is probably why there is a resurgence of Beat

popularity among the rebellious young and the conflicted middle-

agers such as myself.

I remember that someone on the list had said they had seen a

screenplay of OTR that did not include the Mexico section. I

can't imagine that any movie version would leave out Mexico. If

I were to attempt a screenplay I would write that first and work

my way backward using everything else to foreshadow it -- with

the image of the white horse coming out of the night and walking

next to the sleeping body of Dean/Neal as the climax of the

movie. But what do I know -- I hope the final movie is not a big

disappointment.

Happy New Year

Perry Lindstrom

P.S. Next week Howard Park and I start our course at the

Smithsonian, with OTR being the topic of the first night -- we

will no doubt keep the list posted on how things go.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:07:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and Jan and

her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting across

the

street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference panel.

The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary works

and

did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that is

taking place.

The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her followers

were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole conference

including walking tours and panel discussions.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:09:54 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Black & Beat

Ted,

One more suggestion. There is a book by Al Young called *Things Ain't What

They Used To Be* (Berkeley: Creative Arts, 1987). It is volume three in his

trilogy of "musical memoirs". The final section is called "Jazz and Letters."

It's an excellent discussion among Young, Larry Kart, and Michael S. Harper

about cross-influences among painters, writers and musicians. Highly

recommended.

Best,

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:16:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sara Ellefson <Sara_Ellefson_at_PO.CHI08@SMTPLINK.INFORES.COM>

Subject: How to get off . . .

You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF BEAT-L"

command to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (or LISTSERV@CUNYVM.BITNET).

_

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:57:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Todd Bauer <dbe345@LULU.ACNS.NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spit In The Ocean

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96011614314182@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at Jan

16, 96 02:29:06 pm

Yeah there was no issue #7, I've talked with Ken Babbs and it ceased due to a

lack of interest and funding. All six published issues can be purchased from

Key-z productions.>

> On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:48:35 EST Mark Fisher said:

> > This literary journal published by Ken Kesey in the late 70's, was

> > supposed to have 7 issues. To my knowledge, publication ceased after

> > the special Neal Cassady Issue #6. Does anyone know if issue #7 was

> > ever released and if not, why the project was dropped?

>

> This is also my understanding. The Brooklyn College library lists volumes

1-6.

> Don't know what happened to number 7. Suspect it wasn't completed.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:39:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and Jan and

her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting across

the

street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference panel.

The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary works

and

did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that is

taking place.

The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her followers

were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole conference

including walking tours and panel discussions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see any reason why Jan should be invited to attend a conference on

her father. She only met the man for about fifteen minutes of his life

and isn't any kind of scholar.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Should she be there?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 08:15:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ralph Virgo <rvirgo@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac (fwd)

You wrote:

>

>----------------------------Original

message----------------------------

>From: Dennis Kurlas <RIPKURL@AOL.COM>

>Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

>

>You heard true. We attended the JK Conference last year in NYC and

Jan and

>her followers, (including biographer Gerald Nicosia), were protesting

across

>the

>street because Jan was not invited to speak or be on any conference

panel.

>The university wanted to keep the conference focused on JK's literary

works

>and

>did not want to get involved with the personal/political friction that

is

>taking place.

>The conference was well attended, over 200 attendees. Jan & her

followers

>were very vocal and made their presence known throughout the whole

conference

>including walking tours and panel discussions.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

>

>I don't see any reason why Jan should be invited to attend a

conference on

>her father. She only met the man for about fifteen minutes of his

life

>and isn't any kind of scholar.

>

>Does anyone agree/disagree? Should she be there?

The issue was not "was she invited to attend." No one needs an

invitation to attend; it was an open-to-the-public conference.

The issue, and a very real one, is that she was not allowed to

participate on panels.

I, for one, think that she definitely should have been included on

panels.

She is in fact a scholar as far as regards her father's work. She has

presented numerous times, and knows much about his writing. Granted,

she is not a formal scholar, as in having an academic appointment. But

then, neither are Ray Bremster, Lee Renaldo, Andy Clausen, nor a number

of other panel members formal scholars.

Jan was excluded from the conference because she wanted to talk about

her and Gerry Nicosia's efforts to have her father's collected papers

kept intact and placed in a library. The benefit to me, you, and other

people interested in his writing is that the work would be available to

all for research purposes.

You may want to check out Jan's Open Letter to NYU, as reprinted in

Inside the Kerouac Legacy

(http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/IKL.html)

Ralph Virgo

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:23:39 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: ghosts of kerouac and ginsberg spotted

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

In-Reply-To: <30D9CE61@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

tanks mon....of course 'tis so, as i'm a potate in disguise and can

only tink/rite in pomes. (pommes de terre).....fws

On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

> >The "ONE WAY" to experience NYC, MAN: late (2-4 am) wandering around Times

> >Square--Greyound Bus Station area, taking in the mildly violent vibes and

> >talking to whichever black prostitutes want to talk (I did this during my

> >1 golden month back in the "land of the free" in august, by the way)

> >about how things have "gotten much more tense and violent" in this area

> >of nyc, late at night.....(but only talking, of course), and only THEN

> >hitting one of those amazing pulsating-with-energy late-nite bars where

> >men/women and black/white/jewish/whatever talk and laugh with wondrous

> >freedom and openness and the vibes are (after all) very good indeed.....

> >(as only then has one, in a sense, earned this pavlovian reward)....

> >

> > fws

>

> Was it simply me or did this seem amazingly poetic? With a little reworking

> on the format I'd say you've got a hard poem here..

>

> ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:47:40 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <199601112309.SAA04397@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>

Right: I saw this term in Paul Breslin's book, "The Psycho-Political

Muse," where Breslin says the "new American poetry" of late 50's/early

60's (including AG as "representative poet" but also Plath, Levertov,

Wright, Duncan, Olson, Snyder etc.)--which saw itself as a VERY

ORIGINAL/RADICAL reaction to academic/formalist poetry of 50's and New

Criticism, a radical expression of the unconscious, irrational etc

etc--was in fact NOT ORIGINAL but an expression of current cultural

discourses including (neo-)Freudian psychology and CONFORMITY CRITICS =

writers like Riesman Glazer Denney's "The Lonely Crowd" (1950), C.W.

Mills' "White Collar" (1951), W.H. Whyte's "The Organization Man" (1956),

V. Packard's "The Hidden Persuaders" (1957) among others: these guys are

attacking the "mindless conformity" of post-war american society, esp. in

terms of corporate hierarchies, "middle class" values, consumerism

etc...Breslin shows the similarities of these arguments to those of

Marcuse and RD Laing in their books in the 60's, (One-Dimensional Man,

The Divided Self), those "bibles" of the "New Left" as I recall.....

(Breslin says AG's Molloch in "Howl" = America as evil superego-beast

= mindless mouthing of currently fashionable cultural discourse, esp.

Freudiansim.....)....fws, taipei

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

> On Jan 03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:

>

>

> >"conformity criticism"

>

> Could you define the above for me?

>

> Thanks

>

> Damien

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X

From: mah0rd1 <MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

Subject: beat

I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:23:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

> I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

Great -- but what you need to do is send the command to another address:

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

with the message (in the subject line) subscribe beat-l

Also put this message in your text.

I _think_ that'll do it!

See ya,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:14:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <bughouse@bolowski.netcaf.telegate.se>

From: Fredrik Oester <bughouse@BOLOWSKI.NETCAF.TELEGATE.SE>

Subject: kerouac plays

Hello,

We are talking about putting up a theatre play about Kerouac here in

Sweden. I know about three plays so far. Arthur Knight: King of the

Beatniks Martin Duberman: Visions of Kerouac Richard Deacon: Angels

Still Falling (this one was performed in England, so I can find out

more about it myself)

Are there any more, and where can I get a copy of them?

If someone knows anything about this, it would make me a very happy

man...

a big hug from Sweden,

Fredde: bughouse@netcaf.telegate.se

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:30:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

Wouldn't it be great if there existed some kind of evidence remaining from

the Lillian Hellman exercise... wasn't it tentatively titled "The Beat

Generation"?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:11:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

I saw another Kerouac play at the Black Box Theatre, New York University in

1994 titled "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of Saint Jark Kerouac", by

James P. Mirrione. It was good, not great, seemed to be a mostly amatuer

presentation. I doubt it's been published. Basically it was a series of

encounters with figures like Allen G., Neal, Memere, Burroughs, etc., and

there was something about a imaginary cab ride as a trip back through time.

Hope that helps. You might get a copy through the Theatre Dept. at NYU,

sorry I don't have thier address but it should be pretty easy to find.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:49:09 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

Cool,just send to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

in the message body write: subscribe beat-l

I think that's it................................James.....

--

of Course life being just a Reflex you know since Everything is

Relative or to sum it ALL UP god being Dead(not to mention in

Terred) LONG LIVE that Upwardlooking Serene Illustrious and Lord

of Creation,MAN.........................................e.e.c.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:50:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Diprima

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:29:12 +0800 from

<akir1@SINGNET.COM.SG>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:15:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Diprima

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

I heard she was ill. In fact, her 1995 reading tour was cancelled.

Can anyone confirm this? Has she recovered?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:32:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <Kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Catching up

>

>

>>>

>>>I have been away from my computer and mail for some time and would like

to respond to a few postings. My apologies if I am repeating other's responses.

>>>Inquiry from Fredrik Oester concerning plays about Kerouac... Two years

ago at the Beat Generation Conference at New york University, a new play was

presented: "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of St. Jack Kerouac" written

by James Mirrione and directed by Peter Bennett. The play was commissioned

by NYU for the conference and ran about two weeks in May 1994. The play was

quite good and I spoke to Tom Boras, who composed the music, directed the

band and played saxaphone, about a year later. At that time they were

looking to publish the play and possibly send it on a tour. He said there

was some interest in that. I haven't heard anything since then(last June).

Tom Boras is on the faculty at NYU. This play is worth exploring.

>>>

>>>Someone had asked about the movie released a few years ago dealing with

the Life of Allen Ginsberg. Entitled "The Life and Times of Allen

Ginsberg", it was released in 1992 by 1st Run Features. The director was

Jerry Aronson. I was lucky to find the video at the local video rental

although it may not be widely distributed.

>>>

>>>Finally in response to the individual who asked about the newsletter

"Dharma Beat", it is published twice a year with all kinds of good beat

stuff. Only $5/year- not bad-subscibe for two years! The address is

Dharma beat, Box 1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753. Seriously, its a great

newsletter.

>>>

>>>Bill Kiriazis

>>>

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:53:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: The Buk

I would like to recommend a new movie to all you Bukowski fans.

"Leaving Las Vegas" comes real close to capturing the spirit of

Henry Chinaski's netherworld of alcohol and broken dreams.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:24:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST from

<MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

To subscribe, send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Leave the subject

line blank. In the body of your mail type: subscribe beat-l your name.

That's all there is to it. If you have any problems, contact me at

wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:28:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Buk

I might also recommend reading the book the movie is based on.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: big apple beat

I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

of the other stuff in the holdings.

Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

drag the mind, abuse the soul?

Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

Where? At what price?

By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:19:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mat Awad <mawad01@MAIL.ORION.ORG>

Subject: DR. JONES

Just a curious note...I am taking a Kerouac class at Southwest

Missouri State University (MECCA OF KNOWLEDGE) and have an instructor

whose name, as you might guess, is DR. JONES (Jim?). I think I may have

heard mention of him on this list and was wondering if any of you might

have stories which could embarrass him. Any "hellos" will also be given.

thanks, mat

P.S. If, heaven forbid, someone might consider this a "non-list" topic,

feel free to E-Mail me at mawad01@orion.org.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:31:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Diane DiPrima

Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

publisher. Also what is the relationship of Floating Bear and the American

Theater for Poets Bot had the same address in Cooper Square in mid-60's.

Thanks,

Dan Lauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:24:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: DR. JONES

Say hello to him from Mitchell Smith and tell him to give me a call. You

might try embarrassing him with tales that he is a notorious midnight pool

shark.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:13:40 -0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gabriel Enriquez <gabriel@ATILA.OVERNET.COM.AR>

Subject: 60's music

Hello, I'm from Argentina and I'm very interested in interchanging

information about 60's music from the psychedelic era . I know this is not

exactly the subject of this list, but I would appreciatte any information

about it. Any idea of any related list?

Thanx a lot.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: First Smithsonian Class

Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

major conclusion of OTR?

Regards,

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:12:19 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

Um, uh...I think you should back up this statement. Why would you say this?

>So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

>

No.

What statement would casue you to think this? How would a line in the book

about Dean Moriarty being a con man cause to you then apply this to

religion? It is out of the blue. Does it also inspire you to ask if all

philosophers are just interesting cons?

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

Regards back at you, keep on trucking dude.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:59:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima

>Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

>publisher.

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this). But there is a biobliographical essay on DiPrima in here

written by George F. Butterick. Perhaps this will have what you're looking

for. Sorry I don't have more info. on this. Good luck!

Liz.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: <v01510100ad316bb74974@[128.125.222.39]> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Jan 28, 96 10:12:19 am

> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

or other religous leader.

And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

any practical sense.

I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"people tell me it's a sin

to know and feel too much within"

-- bob dylan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:05:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

You ask if the major conclusion of OTR is that god is a con-man. Well, in the

last page, Jack says, "And don't you know that God is Pooh Bear?" And Pooh

bear is sort of befuddled, but always well-meaning or (as B. Hoff would say

in Tao of Pooh) the epitomy of the uncarved block. Very Zen-like. But not a

con-man.

Who knows why JK made this comment at the end of OTR - as out of context as

it was. Maybe it was some random thought that just came into his mind, maybe

he really meant something by it? (anyone want to pretend to understand how

his mind worked?).

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:58:43 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions

-- are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense.

Quotes coming to mind in considering Neal:

"A young jailkid shrouded in mystery." - OTR

"Con-man extraordinaire" - Dylan and Ferlinghetti (or another Beat poet - I

forget which) on Allen Ginnsberg

Hope these help clarify what Mr. Asher means.

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:00:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most libraries will have the entire collection of the DLB - it's about 300

big tomes usually located in the reference section. I don't think you'd

want to try to purchase it as it will be incredible expensive. It is an

excellent reference book on the Beats and Co. though.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:25:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

I was wondering if anyone was aware if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

Swami Muktananda before studying with Chogyam Trungpa. If so, was the

association short-lived or what?

Thanks!

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

As Liz suggested, I think that it is best to approach much of Kerouac's

writings as "random thoughts" rather than clues to a well-defined worldview.

This was spontanious prose after all!

JK did attempt to outline such worldviews at times, but he was at his best

with spontanious prose. JK was a writer of his experiences, not really a

philosopher. He was always the wide-eyed kid...wondering in awe, not the

priest twirling around the incense.

I believe Jack was a seeker who, like most of us, never exactly made it to

Nirvana (more than a few of us have stopped off for too long at the corner

bar on the path). Most of these thoughts are in the nature of speculations

about what might be around the corner, figeratively or literally, not

conclusions. Jack as seeker is one reason why OTR and the other road books

are most appealing to young people at whatever age the young or young at

heart are in a seeker mode.

BY THE WAY - Any Washington, DC area devotees of this list are invited to a

party at my place on Capitol Hill this Sat., Feb. 3, e mail Hpark4@aol.com

for details. Let's continue the discussion in person!

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: your message of Sun Jan 28 11:03:16 -0500 1996

Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

went out and got drunk, isn't it?

Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

glorify a bigamist?

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:40:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Beats and Buddhism

Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

notes, alas.

Respond privately if you like.

Thanks,

Dan Terkla

Dept. of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

(309) 556-3649

terkla@titan.iwu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:27:01 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

At 03:40 PM 1/29/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

>

>Respond privately if you like.

>

>Thanks,

>Dan Terkla

>

>Dept. of English

>Illinois Wesleyan University

>Bloomington, IL 61702

>(309) 556-3649

>terkla@titan.iwu.edu

>

>

About the beats in general I can't say. Gary Snyder and Kerouac acquired

their interests independently and previous to their meeting one another.

In terms of Kerouac I think that his initial "discovery" of Buddhism came in

reaction to the Cassadys embrace of Edgar Cayce. I think Kerouac did not

share their enthusiasm for Cayce but shared their interest in spiritual

matters and this lead him to the library where he found Buddhism. I think

he intially found a lot of Buddhist writings in French.

I believe that Ginsberg did not share Kerouac's interest in Buddhism til

much later. Burroughs never has shared the interest.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:56:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs and Jesus

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

I read in a book (sorry, don't have the author's name or the title handy),

but I believe that the title was _New York in the Fifties_, where Ginsberg

told the author about Burroughs' works of late:

something about Burroughs just completing a trilogy

something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

think)

And something about him writing a novel with Jesus Christ as the protagonist,

"breaking the fundamentalists' monopoly on Jesus".

I realize fully that Ginsberg may have been mistaken, misled, or just plain

lying.

But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

otherwise-main-character?

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:37:32 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs & Jesus

For a hilarious Jesus mention in WSB, check out the lates release GHOST

OF CHANCE, written in late eighties. Some may find the Jesus story

offensive, guess that's why we love Bill eh?

Best

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:07:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 from

<LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 Perry Lindstrom said:

>Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

>last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

>a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

>would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

>though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

>own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

>feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

>

>Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

>are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

>just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

>

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

I can't agree that this is a major or even a *minor* conclusion that I would dr

aw from OTR. But it's an interesting notion and I'd like to hear more of your

thoughts about it. Have you seen the exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery.

I'd be interested in any comparisons to the Whitney exhibit.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:11:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

>to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

>went out and got drunk, isn't it?

>

>Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

>rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

>and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

>glorify a bigamist?

>

>Bill of the North Woods

"Glorify a bigamist?" What myopic readers! Bigamy, sex, cars, music -- these

are not the real issue. The point is that Neal wants it ALL!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:33:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 from

<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 Levi Asher said:

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions --

>are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>

>I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

>Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

>to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

>or other religous leader.

>

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

>Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

>not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

>of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

>yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

>entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

>person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

>relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

>any practical sense.

>

>I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

>one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

>

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>

> "people tell me it's a sin

> to know and feel too much within"

> -- bob dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know. I have a problem associating Moriarty with God. Dean too is a s

eeker, a man with his own quest on several levels. Both Dean and Sal are looki

ng for IT!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:39:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: big apple beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

>town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

>(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

>42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

>of the other stuff in the holdings.

>

>Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

>and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

>would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

>drag the mind, abuse the soul?

>

>Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

>think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

>Where? At what price?

>

>By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

>literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

>

>Bill of the North Woods

This might be of interest to you as well as others on the list: Amiri Baraka e

t al. will be appearing Friday Feb. 2nd (James Joyce's birthday) at the Westbet

h Theater 151 Bank Street, NYC. Tickets $15. Call 212 631 1065 for more info.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:02:55 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

>think)

Lives in Lawrence, Kansas. I recently purchased a "Happy 80th Birthday

William Burroughs" book published by Temple Press, so either the book you

have is quite old or someone is very mistaken. I doubt Ginnsberg would make

so embarassing an error.

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Personally I have heard nothing about Jesus as a main character himself, but

I am in the backwaters at the moment, so this is not a surprise! I know that

a few of his characters bear a sort of resemblence in their benevolence.

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:44:41 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

>

there's many reasons why the Beats got into buddhism - a lot to do, perhaps,

with the West Coast connection, Alan Watts and co. But there is a wider

historical link with Eastern religions in American (and European) thought -

a book I'm just tackling at the moment (with regard specifically to

background on Kerouac's involvement with Buddhism re. Mexico City Blues) is

'Zen and American Thought' by Van Meter Ames, (Honolulu: University of Hawai

Press, 1962, Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 62-12672) which

attempts to contextualise the American interest in Zen. Ames goes back to

Locke and forwards through Jefferson, Emerson, who he calls the American

Bodhisattva, Thoreau, Whitman etc. He is making a specific connection

between Zen and a large starnd of American culture. Haven't read it all

yet, so can't say how successful his argument is, and he doesn't deal with

the Beats specifically. But it may be of some help.

Rod Warner, University of Aberytswyth, Wales, UK.

raw3@aber.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:46:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.iwu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199601311045.KAA24363@nje.earn-relay.ja.net>

Many thanks to all who responded to my query about the early connections

between the Beats and Buddhism. Off to the library.

Dan Terkla

Dept.of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:28:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs birthday Friday

Hey again folks.

William Miller here.

Alan Madrell wrote about Burroughs 80th birthday book.

Just to clear up any confusion about the old man's age:

He turns 82 on Friday, February 5...

thanks to the 3 who answered me about "Ghost of Chance". AG was certainly

exaggerating in the quote, where he says that Burroughs was "writing up a

storm". At less than 100 pages, Ghost of Chance is certainly no storm.

Does anyone have any recent info on the old man's health or productivity as

of late?

William Miller.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:11:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Just a hint: Check out Burroughs recording called, if i remember correctly,

"Dead City Radio".

i.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:16:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR negative response

"Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it"

One legitimate negative reponse I think has to do with the casual disregard

the protagonists have for personal responsibility. And I don't say this as a

cultural conservative myself. But ditching marriages and women bringing up

your kids is a hard thing to justify in real life; the defense of it comes a)

by recontextualizing the novel and pointing out how conformist the 50s were

(as has been spoken to often by many on the list), and b) pointing to Sal's

defense of Dean in the book, when he's "on trial" before all the women (a

good scene to have in the book, showing JK wasn't eliding the issue but was

conscious of the pain caused innocents by the constant pursuit of experience

by the men in their lives); Sal says something to the effect of: you all WANT

to hang out with this guy, are interested in him, and he is who he is so you

have to take the bad with the good. But rereading the article on Children of

the Beats (on the list a few months ago) makes clear that there's plenty to

dislike about the lives Beat explorations sanctioned. You can say that these

guys were involved in spiritual quests, but what religious philosophy

condones leaving people who depend on you miserable through carelessness and,

indeed, selfish pursuit of your own spiritual ends?

But I like the book and these writers -- the argument I'm making is not my

own overriding concern. Which leads me to another aspect of OTR rarely

mentioned, it seems. That is, for all its exhileration with experience and

language, it is finally a very SAD book. Most of Kerouac is indeed permeated

with misery and lament. Even Dean at the end is stuck in a type of rut, and

Sal himself experiences betrayal by Dean when left sick in Mexico: "Okay,

Dean, I'll say nothing." Abandoning social structures does come at a price

-- the best defense against the above accusations, to my mind, that the novel

acknowledges that these lives (Sal's own, Dean's, etc.) can't be maintained,

destroy too much. And yet, live the other way? Not on your life.

On "pooh bear" at end, briefly: isn't this the projection of what the people

living in these sleepy households the narrator surveys at the end of the

book, what THEY are thinking, not the narrator's view at all? Be careful

making the mistake of confusing fiction with actual authors lives, even in

such an autobiographically influenced work as this.

Ted Pelton

only tink/rite in pomes. (pommes de terre).....fws

On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

> >The "ONE WAY" to experience NYC, MAN: late (2-4 am) wandering around Times

> >Square--Greyound Bus Station area, taking in the mildly violent vibes and

> >talking to whichever black prostitutes want to talk (I did this during my

> >1 golden month back in the "land of the free" in august, by the way)

> >about how things have "gotten much more tense and violent" in this area

> >of nyc, late at night.....(but only talking, of course), and only THEN

> >hitting one of those amazing pulsating-with-energy late-nite bars where

> >men/women and black/white/jewish/whatever talk and laugh with wondrous

> >freedom and openness and the vibes are (after all) very good indeed.....

> >(as only then has one, in a sense, earned this pavlovian reward)....

> >

> > fws

>

> Was it simply me or did this seem amazingly poetic? With a little reworking

> on the format I'd say you've got a hard poem here..

>

> ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:47:40 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <199601112309.SAA04397@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>

Right: I saw this term in Paul Breslin's book, "The Psycho-Political

Muse," where Breslin says the "new American poetry" of late 50's/early

60's (including AG as "representative poet" but also Plath, Levertov,

Wright, Duncan, Olson, Snyder etc.)--which saw itself as a VERY

ORIGINAL/RADICAL reaction to academic/formalist poetry of 50's and New

Criticism, a radical expression of the unconscious, irrational etc

etc--was in fact NOT ORIGINAL but an expression of current cultural

discourses including (neo-)Freudian psychology and CONFORMITY CRITICS =

writers like Riesman Glazer Denney's "The Lonely Crowd" (1950), C.W.

Mills' "White Collar" (1951), W.H. Whyte's "The Organization Man" (1956),

V. Packard's "The Hidden Persuaders" (1957) among others: these guys are

attacking the "mindless conformity" of post-war american society, esp. in

terms of corporate hierarchies, "middle class" values, consumerism

etc...Breslin shows the similarities of these arguments to those of

Marcuse and RD Laing in their books in the 60's, (One-Dimensional Man,

The Divided Self), those "bibles" of the "New Left" as I recall.....

(Breslin says AG's Molloch in "Howl" = America as evil superego-beast

= mindless mouthing of currently fashionable cultural discourse, esp.

Freudiansim.....)....fws, taipei

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

> On Jan 03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:

>

>

> >"conformity criticism"

>

> Could you define the above for me?

>

> Thanks

>

> Damien

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X

From: mah0rd1 <MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

Subject: beat

I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:23:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

> I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

Great -- but what you need to do is send the command to another address:

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

with the message (in the subject line) subscribe beat-l

Also put this message in your text.

I _think_ that'll do it!

See ya,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:14:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <bughouse@bolowski.netcaf.telegate.se>

From: Fredrik Oester <bughouse@BOLOWSKI.NETCAF.TELEGATE.SE>

Subject: kerouac plays

Hello,

We are talking about putting up a theatre play about Kerouac here in

Sweden. I know about three plays so far. Arthur Knight: King of the

Beatniks Martin Duberman: Visions of Kerouac Richard Deacon: Angels

Still Falling (this one was performed in England, so I can find out

more about it myself)

Are there any more, and where can I get a copy of them?

If someone knows anything about this, it would make me a very happy

man...

a big hug from Sweden,

Fredde: bughouse@netcaf.telegate.se

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:30:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

Wouldn't it be great if there existed some kind of evidence remaining from

the Lillian Hellman exercise... wasn't it tentatively titled "The Beat

Generation"?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:11:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

I saw another Kerouac play at the Black Box Theatre, New York University in

1994 titled "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of Saint Jark Kerouac", by

James P. Mirrione. It was good, not great, seemed to be a mostly amatuer

presentation. I doubt it's been published. Basically it was a series of

encounters with figures like Allen G., Neal, Memere, Burroughs, etc., and

there was something about a imaginary cab ride as a trip back through time.

Hope that helps. You might get a copy through the Theatre Dept. at NYU,

sorry I don't have thier address but it should be pretty easy to find.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:49:09 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

Cool,just send to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

in the message body write: subscribe beat-l

I think that's it................................James.....

--

of Course life being just a Reflex you know since Everything is

Relative or to sum it ALL UP god being Dead(not to mention in

Terred) LONG LIVE that Upwardlooking Serene Illustrious and Lord

of Creation,MAN.........................................e.e.c.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:50:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Diprima

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:29:12 +0800 from

<akir1@SINGNET.COM.SG>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:15:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Diprima

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

I heard she was ill. In fact, her 1995 reading tour was cancelled.

Can anyone confirm this? Has she recovered?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:32:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <Kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Catching up

>

>

>>>

>>>I have been away from my computer and mail for some time and would like

to respond to a few postings. My apologies if I am repeating other's responses.

>>>Inquiry from Fredrik Oester concerning plays about Kerouac... Two years

ago at the Beat Generation Conference at New york University, a new play was

presented: "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of St. Jack Kerouac" written

by James Mirrione and directed by Peter Bennett. The play was commissioned

by NYU for the conference and ran about two weeks in May 1994. The play was

quite good and I spoke to Tom Boras, who composed the music, directed the

band and played saxaphone, about a year later. At that time they were

looking to publish the play and possibly send it on a tour. He said there

was some interest in that. I haven't heard anything since then(last June).

Tom Boras is on the faculty at NYU. This play is worth exploring.

>>>

>>>Someone had asked about the movie released a few years ago dealing with

the Life of Allen Ginsberg. Entitled "The Life and Times of Allen

Ginsberg", it was released in 1992 by 1st Run Features. The director was

Jerry Aronson. I was lucky to find the video at the local video rental

although it may not be widely distributed.

>>>

>>>Finally in response to the individual who asked about the newsletter

"Dharma Beat", it is published twice a year with all kinds of good beat

stuff. Only $5/year- not bad-subscibe for two years! The address is

Dharma beat, Box 1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753. Seriously, its a great

newsletter.

>>>

>>>Bill Kiriazis

>>>

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:53:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: The Buk

I would like to recommend a new movie to all you Bukowski fans.

"Leaving Las Vegas" comes real close to capturing the spirit of

Henry Chinaski's netherworld of alcohol and broken dreams.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:24:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST from

<MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

To subscribe, send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Leave the subject

line blank. In the body of your mail type: subscribe beat-l your name.

That's all there is to it. If you have any problems, contact me at

wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:28:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Buk

I might also recommend reading the book the movie is based on.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: big apple beat

I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

of the other stuff in the holdings.

Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

drag the mind, abuse the soul?

Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

Where? At what price?

By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:19:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mat Awad <mawad01@MAIL.ORION.ORG>

Subject: DR. JONES

Just a curious note...I am taking a Kerouac class at Southwest

Missouri State University (MECCA OF KNOWLEDGE) and have an instructor

whose name, as you might guess, is DR. JONES (Jim?). I think I may have

heard mention of him on this list and was wondering if any of you might

have stories which could embarrass him. Any "hellos" will also be given.

thanks, mat

P.S. If, heaven forbid, someone might consider this a "non-list" topic,

feel free to E-Mail me at mawad01@orion.org.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:31:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Diane DiPrima

Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

publisher. Also what is the relationship of Floating Bear and the American

Theater for Poets Bot had the same address in Cooper Square in mid-60's.

Thanks,

Dan Lauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:24:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: DR. JONES

Say hello to him from Mitchell Smith and tell him to give me a call. You

might try embarrassing him with tales that he is a notorious midnight pool

shark.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:13:40 -0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gabriel Enriquez <gabriel@ATILA.OVERNET.COM.AR>

Subject: 60's music

Hello, I'm from Argentina and I'm very interested in interchanging

information about 60's music from the psychedelic era . I know this is not

exactly the subject of this list, but I would appreciatte any information

about it. Any idea of any related list?

Thanx a lot.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: First Smithsonian Class

Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

major conclusion of OTR?

Regards,

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:12:19 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

Um, uh...I think you should back up this statement. Why would you say this?

>So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

>

No.

What statement would casue you to think this? How would a line in the book

about Dean Moriarty being a con man cause to you then apply this to

religion? It is out of the blue. Does it also inspire you to ask if all

philosophers are just interesting cons?

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

Regards back at you, keep on trucking dude.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:59:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima

>Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

>publisher.

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this). But there is a biobliographical essay on DiPrima in here

written by George F. Butterick. Perhaps this will have what you're looking

for. Sorry I don't have more info. on this. Good luck!

Liz.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: <v01510100ad316bb74974@[128.125.222.39]> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Jan 28, 96 10:12:19 am

> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

or other religous leader.

And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

any practical sense.

I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"people tell me it's a sin

to know and feel too much within"

-- bob dylan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:05:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

You ask if the major conclusion of OTR is that god is a con-man. Well, in the

last page, Jack says, "And don't you know that God is Pooh Bear?" And Pooh

bear is sort of befuddled, but always well-meaning or (as B. Hoff would say

in Tao of Pooh) the epitomy of the uncarved block. Very Zen-like. But not a

con-man.

Who knows why JK made this comment at the end of OTR - as out of context as

it was. Maybe it was some random thought that just came into his mind, maybe

he really meant something by it? (anyone want to pretend to understand how

his mind worked?).

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:58:43 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions

-- are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense.

Quotes coming to mind in considering Neal:

"A young jailkid shrouded in mystery." - OTR

"Con-man extraordinaire" - Dylan and Ferlinghetti (or another Beat poet - I

forget which) on Allen Ginnsberg

Hope these help clarify what Mr. Asher means.

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:00:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most libraries will have the entire collection of the DLB - it's about 300

big tomes usually located in the reference section. I don't think you'd

want to try to purchase it as it will be incredible expensive. It is an

excellent reference book on the Beats and Co. though.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:25:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

I was wondering if anyone was aware if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

Swami Muktananda before studying with Chogyam Trungpa. If so, was the

association short-lived or what?

Thanks!

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

As Liz suggested, I think that it is best to approach much of Kerouac's

writings as "random thoughts" rather than clues to a well-defined worldview.

This was spontanious prose after all!

JK did attempt to outline such worldviews at times, but he was at his best

with spontanious prose. JK was a writer of his experiences, not really a

philosopher. He was always the wide-eyed kid...wondering in awe, not the

priest twirling around the incense.

I believe Jack was a seeker who, like most of us, never exactly made it to

Nirvana (more than a few of us have stopped off for too long at the corner

bar on the path). Most of these thoughts are in the nature of speculations

about what might be around the corner, figeratively or literally, not

conclusions. Jack as seeker is one reason why OTR and the other road books

are most appealing to young people at whatever age the young or young at

heart are in a seeker mode.

BY THE WAY - Any Washington, DC area devotees of this list are invited to a

party at my place on Capitol Hill this Sat., Feb. 3, e mail Hpark4@aol.com

for details. Let's continue the discussion in person!

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: your message of Sun Jan 28 11:03:16 -0500 1996

Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

went out and got drunk, isn't it?

Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

glorify a bigamist?

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:40:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Beats and Buddhism

Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

notes, alas.

Respond privately if you like.

Thanks,

Dan Terkla

Dept. of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

(309) 556-3649

terkla@titan.iwu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:27:01 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

At 03:40 PM 1/29/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

>

>Respond privately if you like.

>

>Thanks,

>Dan Terkla

>

>Dept. of English

>Illinois Wesleyan University

>Bloomington, IL 61702

>(309) 556-3649

>terkla@titan.iwu.edu

>

>

About the beats in general I can't say. Gary Snyder and Kerouac acquired

their interests independently and previous to their meeting one another.

In terms of Kerouac I think that his initial "discovery" of Buddhism came in

reaction to the Cassadys embrace of Edgar Cayce. I think Kerouac did not

share their enthusiasm for Cayce but shared their interest in spiritual

matters and this lead him to the library where he found Buddhism. I think

he intially found a lot of Buddhist writings in French.

I believe that Ginsberg did not share Kerouac's interest in Buddhism til

much later. Burroughs never has shared the interest.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:56:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs and Jesus

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

I read in a book (sorry, don't have the author's name or the title handy),

but I believe that the title was _New York in the Fifties_, where Ginsberg

told the author about Burroughs' works of late:

something about Burroughs just completing a trilogy

something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

think)

And something about him writing a novel with Jesus Christ as the protagonist,

"breaking the fundamentalists' monopoly on Jesus".

I realize fully that Ginsberg may have been mistaken, misled, or just plain

lying.

But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

otherwise-main-character?

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:37:32 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs & Jesus

For a hilarious Jesus mention in WSB, check out the lates release GHOST

OF CHANCE, written in late eighties. Some may find the Jesus story

offensive, guess that's why we love Bill eh?

Best

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:07:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 from

<LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 Perry Lindstrom said:

>Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

>last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

>a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

>would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

>though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

>own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

>feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

>

>Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

>are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

>just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

>

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

I can't agree that this is a major or even a *minor* conclusion that I would dr

aw from OTR. But it's an interesting notion and I'd like to hear more of your

thoughts about it. Have you seen the exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery.

I'd be interested in any comparisons to the Whitney exhibit.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:11:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

>to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

>went out and got drunk, isn't it?

>

>Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

>rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

>and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

>glorify a bigamist?

>

>Bill of the North Woods

"Glorify a bigamist?" What myopic readers! Bigamy, sex, cars, music -- these

are not the real issue. The point is that Neal wants it ALL!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:33:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 from

<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 Levi Asher said:

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions --

>are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>

>I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

>Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

>to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

>or other religous leader.

>

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

>Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

>not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

>of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

>yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

>entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

>person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

>relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

>any practical sense.

>

>I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

>one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

>

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>

> "people tell me it's a sin

> to know and feel too much within"

> -- bob dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know. I have a problem associating Moriarty with God. Dean too is a s

eeker, a man with his own quest on several levels. Both Dean and Sal are looki

ng for IT!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:39:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: big apple beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

>town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

>(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

>42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

>of the other stuff in the holdings.

>

>Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

>and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

>would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

>drag the mind, abuse the soul?

>

>Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

>think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

>Where? At what price?

>

>By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

>literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

>

>Bill of the North Woods

This might be of interest to you as well as others on the list: Amiri Baraka e

t al. will be appearing Friday Feb. 2nd (James Joyce's birthday) at the Westbet

h Theater 151 Bank Street, NYC. Tickets $15. Call 212 631 1065 for more info.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:02:55 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

>think)

Lives in Lawrence, Kansas. I recently purchased a "Happy 80th Birthday

William Burroughs" book published by Temple Press, so either the book you

have is quite old or someone is very mistaken. I doubt Ginnsberg would make

so embarassing an error.

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Personally I have heard nothing about Jesus as a main character himself, but

I am in the backwaters at the moment, so this is not a surprise! I know that

a few of his characters bear a sort of resemblence in their benevolence.

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:44:41 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

>

there's many reasons why the Beats got into buddhism - a lot to do, perhaps,

with the West Coast connection, Alan Watts and co. But there is a wider

historical link with Eastern religions in American (and European) thought -

a book I'm just tackling at the moment (with regard specifically to

background on Kerouac's involvement with Buddhism re. Mexico City Blues) is

'Zen and American Thought' by Van Meter Ames, (Honolulu: University of Hawai

Press, 1962, Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 62-12672) which

attempts to contextualise the American interest in Zen. Ames goes back to

Locke and forwards through Jefferson, Emerson, who he calls the American

Bodhisattva, Thoreau, Whitman etc. He is making a specific connection

between Zen and a large starnd of American culture. Haven't read it all

yet, so can't say how successful his argument is, and he doesn't deal with

the Beats specifically. But it may be of some help.

Rod Warner, University of Aberytswyth, Wales, UK.

raw3@aber.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:46:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.iwu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199601311045.KAA24363@nje.earn-relay.ja.net>

Many thanks to all who responded to my query about the early connections

between the Beats and Buddhism. Off to the library.

Dan Terkla

Dept.of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:28:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs birthday Friday

Hey again folks.

William Miller here.

Alan Madrell wrote about Burroughs 80th birthday book.

Just to clear up any confusion about the old man's age:

He turns 82 on Friday, February 5...

thanks to the 3 who answered me about "Ghost of Chance". AG was certainly

exaggerating in the quote, where he says that Burroughs was "writing up a

storm". At less than 100 pages, Ghost of Chance is certainly no storm.

Does anyone have any recent info on the old man's health or productivity as

of late?

William Miller.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:11:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Just a hint: Check out Burroughs recording called, if i remember correctly,

"Dead City Radio".

i.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:16:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR negative response

"Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it"

One legitimate negative reponse I think has to do with the casual disregard

the protagonists have for personal responsibility. And I don't say this as a

cultural conservative myself. But ditching marriages and women bringing up

your kids is a hard thing to justify in real life; the defense of it comes a)

by recontextualizing the novel and pointing out how conformist the 50s were

(as has been spoken to often by many on the list), and b) pointing to Sal's

defense of Dean in the book, when he's "on trial" before all the women (a

good scene to have in the book, showing JK wasn't eliding the issue but was

conscious of the pain caused innocents by the constant pursuit of experience

by the men in their lives); Sal says something to the effect of: you all WANT

to hang out with this guy, are interested in him, and he is who he is so you

have to take the bad with the good. But rereading the article on Children of

the Beats (on the list a few months ago) makes clear that there's plenty to

dislike about the lives Beat explorations sanctioned. You can say that these

guys were involved in spiritual quests, but what religious philosophy

condones leaving people who depend on you miserable through carelessness and,

indeed, selfish pursuit of your own spiritual ends?

But I like the book and these writers -- the argument I'm making is not my

own overriding concern. Which leads me to another aspect of OTR rarely

mentioned, it seems. That is, for all its exhileration with experience and

language, it is finally a very SAD book. Most of Kerouac is indeed permeated

with misery and lament. Even Dean at the end is stuck in a type of rut, and

Sal himself experiences betrayal by Dean when left sick in Mexico: "Okay,

Dean, I'll say nothing." Abandoning social structures does come at a price

-- the best defense against the above accusations, to my mind, that the novel

acknowledges that these lives (Sal's own, Dean's, etc.) can't be maintained,

destroy too much. And yet, live the other way? Not on your life.

On "pooh bear" at end, briefly: isn't this the projection of what the people

living in these sleepy households the narrator surveys at the end of the

book, what THEY are thinking, not the narrator's view at all? Be careful

making the mistake of confusing fiction with actual authors lives, even in

such an autobiographically influenced work as this.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:25:12 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs birthday Friday (fwd)

Does anyone have any recent info on the old man's health or productivity as

of late?

William Miller.

Hello William

Do you, or any others on list, know what happen to the Opera Bill was

involved with about the ROSWELL UFO crash? This gets a mention in the

Barry Miles biography. Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series

on his favourite cats! Has anyone any more information about this, has

it been broadcast yet? Is anyone sending birthday wishes to WSB

Communications?

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:01:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Go

Does anyone know where I can find a character key for "GO"? I think I have

who's who figured out in most instances, but there's still some I'm not so

sure of. Thanks to anyone that can help.

-Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:39:26 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In-Reply-To: <E490BC3001C93A7C@-SMF->

This (being guided by one's pre-conscious sediments/forces) is like

fortune-telling (e.g. "throwing" the coins with the "I Ching")? "Art"

then becomes essentially a kind of (self-activated) "fortune-telling"?

fws

On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Eckert, Molly K wrote:

> Jules

>

> Cage used to throw papers with notes and and other musical themes in the

> air and then choose them randomly. However, even thought that this

> choosing was chance the notes and such that he wrote on the papers were

> anything but. He knew maybe not consciously but subconsciously what was

> going to be on the papers.

>

> Have you ever heard of Tabula Rasa? we are all born as a blank slate.

> Our experiences and memories are what molds us. These experiences are

> always deeply imbedded into our subconscious. Even if it was just

> something that we saw or heard for a brief minute. They still lead us

> around. Therefore even the way John Cage chose his papers was not

> chance. He may not havce realized it but his memories and experiecnces

> forced him to choose the papers in a certain way.

>

> Molly

>

> MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:40:40 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

Comments: To: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

In-Reply-To: <23109631.114119691@RedwoodFN.org>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned *Steppenwolf*. At

> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's, as i recall,

virtually "out of the blue"--people then were more aware of the jung-hesse

connections than the beat-hesse connections, i think (just as usa 50's

culture was strangely "erased" from the collective 60's unconcious by the

much-more-"current" discourses of sartre, laing, jung, heidegger, marcuse,

not to mention marx/lenin/mao, taoism, buddhism, etc etc) (a curious

phenomenon, no?)-- quickly followed by "narcissus & goldmund,"

"glass bead game" (a cult item that, brought into some sort of cultural

discursive relation with the I Ching as i recall), "siddhartha" etc.

(beatles high on acid in india, "let it be," lennon still had

a decade or so....heidegger's gelassenheit, "releasement;" laing

(the "true" precursor of that contemporary cultural guru, deleuze) taking

acid to talk with schizophrenic patients in england....).....

fws, taipei

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:58:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Letterman Guest

A quick note...

A 14 year old guest on tonight's Letterman show (tonight being 2/1), who is

named Natalie Portman and who I believe is some sort of film actress, was

discussing her education, and she mentioned that her history teacher, whom

she classified as weird, recommended OTR to her. Having read it, she can't

understand why her teacher would recommend a druggy book. She stated that it

was a story about using cocaine, heroine, and smoking tea. From her

reaction, I don't think she would recommend the book. Just thought some of

you might find it interesting.

out for now...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:29:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Go

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:01:19 -0500 from <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

I'm not sure if I remember seeing a character key. If you don't find one, it m

ight be fun to construct one on the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:30:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Character references

I'm sorry I discarded the original message, but someone asked for a

reference list of characters in _Go_. I know Ann has a comprehensive one

in her autobiography of Jack's works, but all this got me thinking.

I am not attacvking the notion of having one, or the original requestor's

motives for having one (I find it fascinating myself) but I was wondering

what the list thought about the use of these lists.

Should we read the texts of the Beats in and of themselves without reference

to the historical figures who were the basis for the literature or should

we look at the work as "real"?

When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:10:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: OTR

The discussion on K`s attitude to family values in OTR has been most

interesting; I tend to agree with the contributor who said we should not

necessarily conflate K`s personal ideas with those of the OTR characters,

even Sal. Even then, Sal tried to form a traditional family bond - with

Terry and her son, but was defeated by the brutally hard work and

sharecroppers` wages(certainly not by the lure of another woman). I submit

that K`s own view`s on family, which are of the warmest and most loyal kind,

are to be found in abundance in Sax, Visions of Gerard and the two beautiful

Christmas essays he wrote. Sal`s moral neutrality towards Dean is explained,

in my view, by the twin undercurrents in OTR of spiritual desolation( the

failure to locate "old Dean Moriarty...the father we never found") and the

physical threat of immolation in an atomic war. Of course, the two themes

are related to each other. As John Clellon Holmes has written (in his

brilliant essay on Gershon Legman), Holmes`generation felt "paralyzed...by

that suspicion of powerlessness to affect events which was perhaps the war`s

subtlest and most damaging legacy...". Gerry Nicosia has written that K`s

life and work reflect a kind of post-traumatic stress resulting from the

disorienting effect on K of the war and of course the personal tragedies in

Jack`s family. Viewed in this light, we can conclude that K in OTR was

describing (and decrying) a moral vacuum caused by cataclysmic war and

spiritual desolation.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:11:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: K & family

Just an addendum to my last posting to clarify an apparent contradiction: I

referred to works of K in which he adopts a warm, traditionalist stance

towards the nuclear family, yet I also commented on K`s non-judgemental view

of apparently irresponsible actions which produce joy or reflect a

comradeship of the road. However, I meant that K`s views on family appear to

reflect a paradise lost: the works I referred to on family, such as Sax and

Visions of Gerard, all pertain to the pre-war period, when K was a child or

teen. He seemed to think that post-war anxietys and the aging process,

viewed agaist the backdrop of an increasingly conformist society, precluded

a return to the small town, traditionalist values he grew up with. The

spiritual quests of OTR and TDB were authentic attempts to resolve this

dilemma. Sadly for K, few critics in the 50`s could understand what he was

trying to do, so myopic was the time, wedded as it was to (in the words of

the excellent liner notes to the Beat Generation box set of recordings) the

"officially approved reality".

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:28:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: WSB Communications

List people,

Burroughs birthday IS Feb. 5, of course, but Feb. 5 is Monday, not Friday,

obviously.

The old man turns 82. MONDAY!

I don't know anything about the opera, or the cat show. sorry.

My apologies.

William Miller

PS I dont' know how to get to WSB Communications via the net or the snailmail

process. If anyone has an address, please send it this way.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:15:33 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

>

>> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned

>>*Steppenwolf*. At

>> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

>> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

>> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

>

> right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

>60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

>became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's,

<snip>

> fws, taipei

Nice observation,

don't forget to duck and cover in March. (just kidding--I hope)

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:55:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: beatless

friday afternoon or p.o.e.t.s. day

- (Piss Off Early Tomorrows Saturday)

-----

hello its me its me calling out your name

hello its me its me running scared again

seen this world before? - i'm already there!

seen this world before! - i'm already there?

save your books and your pills...i don't need them - i'm there!

jack & neal were real but just two men

sal & dean were seen but just two men

searchingrunningspiritualpain

carskicksstarsbeatzeninsane!

they walked the lonely road

you know the one you're folks don't know

had no time for love and devotion

had no time for old fashioned potions

found in jazzclubspubs thenwhen wandering lonely streets at dawn

escaping faces cold alone

in everyman in everyland in everykick you understand?

i do hope you understand.

have you read they're tale?

of how they lost & loved & beat & failed?

YOU decide! like everychild! everyeye! everysky above your head

i hope that you know they're far from being dead

like i said.

in everyman! in everyland! in everykick! you understand?

thatyouareme

andsoami

theyknewthat

stilltheytried

tolivealife

rawandblind

just ask cody he knew time...

youknowit'sthere butyoujustcan'tseeit

youknowit'sthere butyoujustcan'treadit

they came inontheirown and theyleftontheirown

forget the lovers they've known and they're friends ontheroad

you know

you come into this life on your own

and you leave

on your own

- 0 -

its a poem!? if anyone understand's it then kindly

explain it to me because i certainly don't. and i wrote

it! most of it is stolen/altered from 'the verve' lyrics

that are currently playing around my mind. killed

half an hour anyway.

what's happening to the group reading of 'on the road'

that was supposed to have started at xmas? i was

expecting hundreds of new insights, expert opinions

and mindless dribble to be molesting the lists by now.

so far there's been very little.

no more.

joe.

----------

' don't want to live, don't want to die

baby i just want to fly

and you and i

are gonna live forever '

- noel gallagher, oasis

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:15:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: What is UP with this chance thing....

We discussed the "Chance in art" theme for a good month not to long ago

(November/December) - how did it get resurected again?

BTW - Happy Birthday, Billy-boy

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:46:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Go

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

I'm not sure if I remember seeing a character key. If you don't find one, it m

ight be fun to construct one on the list.

Here are the easy ones:

Pasternack: Kerouac

Stofsky: Ginsberg

Kennedy: Cassady

Hobbes: Holmes

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:15:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: Re: WSB Communications

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.NebrWesleyan.edu>

In-Reply-To: <960202122849_134078278@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Hello:

> PS I dont' know how to get to WSB Communications via the net or the

> snailmail process. If anyone has an address, please send it this way.

If you care to, you can try to reach William S. Burroughs:

William Burroughs Communications

PO Box 147

Lawrence, KS 66044

I've never seen an Email address.

I did however hear a rumor that WSB Communications was publishing

a CD ROM. But that is entirely rumor from a friend in Lawrence.

Anyone else hear this?

BTW, I'm working on an EXTENSIVE WSB web site for my senior English

thesis at Nebraska Wesleyan University, Lincoln. It will be the

largest most comprehensive WSB site available on the net today.

Basically, it will be a non-linear hypertext system with loads of

graphics, animation, sound-bites . . . heavy on the interactive

side. Of course, the main ingredient is original content: my

opinions and research; however, I will also be including digital

versions of a few WSB books and essays as well as other people's work.

In a month or so I will have enough of the project completed to request

beta testers and proof readers..I also want web design comments, etc..

If you are interested in helping me out (and would like to be in the

credits) send me some email.....also-- if you have written anything

WSB related that you would like to have published on-line, I'd

be happy to include it in my site.

Regards,

Luke

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:08:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Weintraub <scottw@WAM.UMD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

In-Reply-To: <960202.103457.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Peter McGahey wrote:

> I'm sorry I discarded the original message, but someone asked for a

> reference list of characters in _Go_. I know Ann has a comprehensive one

> in her autobiography of Jack's works, but all this got me thinking.

To the person who wanted the list:

(on the back cover of the Thunder's Mouth Press version)

David Stofsky = Allen Ginsberg

Gene Pasternak = Jack Kerouac

Hart Kennedy = Neal Cassady

Albert Ancke = Herbert Huncke

And then, I think that...

Dinah = Luanne Henderson

I've forgotten a little since reading "Go." Was Verger the guy who made

the fatal mistake of sticking his head out of a subway window? I forgot

his name and I know that he's mentioned in conversation in "Jack's Book"

but I wasn't able to find it within two minutes--so I gave up.

>

> I am not attacvking the notion of having one, or the original requestor's

> motives for having one (I find it fascinating myself) but I was wondering

> what the list thought about the use of these lists.

Well there's an anti-hero worship vibe on the list but that's not to be

confused with biography. Personally, I find the biography of these boys

fascinating, too. In my opinion, the beats aren't just about literature.

They're about America, too. This is what attracts me to them so much.

I spent some time out of college and this is the beginning of my second

semester after returning. I feel a lot of the same angst and

frustrations that they did. The beats are wholly products of America.

My whole outlook on college paralells that of somebody who grew up in the

ghettos and started dealing when they were ten, mugging when they were

twelve, robbing convience stores when they were fourteen, and finally

murdering when they're sixteen. And when they are arrested and asked

why they did it, they might say, "I was forced into this way of life. I

had no choice." This is exactly how I feel about college... and I know I

have a choice but in many ways I don't. I was forced into this way of

life. Both of my parents went to college, all of my buddies from high

school are currently in college. Although it sounds ridiculous, it is very

difficult for me to find happiness within the social constructs I've been

raised, the only world I know. I am America and so are/were Jack, Neal,

Allen, etc. I don't know any better.

But I digress...

I said earlier that they're more than just a literary genre. They were a

(I hate to say it) scene. It's important to know all about the Six Gallery

Reading, what preceeded it, what happened after it. And considering that

most of the stuff they wrote was almost wholly biographical, we're reading

stories of their movement or non-movement or whatever you want to call it.

Speaking of "Go," Holmes's Cassady is very much different than Kerouac's

Cassady. Exactly who were these guys? Their lives were America and to

understand what they're trying to say, we first have to discover who they

are/were.

There was a recent thread about first-time OTR readers not enjoying their

experience. This is a book that becomes a hell of a lot more interesting

when you understand who these people were, where they came from, what they

became, etc.

>

> Should we read the texts of the Beats in and of themselves without reference

> to the historical figures who were the basis for the literature or should

> we look at the work as "real"?

>

> When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

> works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

> that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

> Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

> because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

> historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

>

I think that any critical and intelligent reader is capable of separating the

historical figures from the work, itself. So it is entirely possible,

and even recommended to both read (listen to) the words and let them

stand alone but to also think about the men behind the poetry and/or prose.

As for their pop culture status, anybody who truly knows anything, knows

that they are entirely misrepresented in the media. According to my

television, the ghost of Jack Kerouac is standing right now on an

anonymous rainy street corner in Grenwich Village. He's got on his

khakis, he's wearing his trenchcoat, and he's smoking his cigarette. In

a few minutes, he'll walk down the street to a bar where he'll have a few

beers, smoke a joint or two, and turn his attention to the beautiful

woman at the corner table. He's slick as shit and so he'll walk over to

her, read some poetry, snap his fingers to the jazz band that's playing

and one hour later, he'll be back at her apartment having cocktails.

He's Mac Daddy 2000, remember? He'll talk to her, tell her what she

wants to hear, kiss her ever-so-slightly on the neck a few times, slowly

working his way up to those lips where he'll plant one that she'll

remember for the rest of her life. And while they're doing that, *snap*

goes the bra, *carress* *carress* goes Jack's hand, and... I think you

get the picture.

Anybody who has read the novels knows that this is entirely untrue. And

so, as far as the hero worship goes, it's a moot topic because we all

know that it's a load of bullshit. We all know that Kerouac was you, me,

and that guy walking down the street. He fucks up all the time, doesn't

quite understand women, he's confused, insecure, immature, and thinks too

hard. This is the Jack that is me, the Jack I love.

*****************************************************************************

* Scott Weintraub - scottw@wam.umd.edu - College Park, Maryland *

*****************************************************************************

* "The bounties of space, of infinite outwardness, were three: empty *

* heroics, low comedy, and pointless death." -Kurt Vonnegut *

*****************************************************************************

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:58:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

Comments: To: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Well, why can't we who "know better" use such character lists for

our own quiet purposes and realize their limited value? You're right,

the folks behind such pseudonyms ARE interesting, and that alone

should be enough.

Those who've tended to detract from the literary worth of Beat

writers/poets will do so anyway, and confusing "real people" with

characters is only a smokescreen for their prejudices. Note Cassidy's

bust for pot after OTR became such a hit. The society was without real

recourse in its attempts to damage the book as a book (though it's

been tried with little success, especially in the years immediately

following publication (OTR being on the bestseller list for 4 weeks

wasn't anything to sniff at), and so the lifestyle was attacked and

a lot of extraneous garbage was thrown into the mix to distract

from the works' value. Luckily (I think) we know better now.

But there is an amount of sociology here, that can be addressed

without detracting from the literariness of what we are reading and

admiring. As a "movement", the Beats were a particularly homegrown

phenomenon (despite its parallel Brit faction, "The Angry Young

Men"), and as an "American" movement it also deserves that kind of

attention:

As Gregory Corso once said (and this is grossly

paraphrasing that little elfin beauty) that once the Beat

Generation was about literature; now it's about

"everything".

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:06:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Go

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

I'm not absolutely certain (it's been years since I read Charters'

book), but I think she does some of the ID-ing for the characters in

GO informally in her bio of K.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:04:43 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

>I've forgotten a little since reading "Go." Was Verger the guy who made

>the fatal mistake of sticking his head out of a subway window? I forgot

>his name and I know that he's mentioned in conversation in "Jack's Book"

>but I wasn't able to find it within two minutes--so I gave up.

>

His real name was Bill Canastra.

And I think Kerouac's second wife was living in his loft after he died when

got together with her, described at the end of On The Road. She was/is (I

assume she is alive) the mother of Jan kerouac. She may have been

Canastra's girlfriend but I am not sure about this.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:22:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: WSB & TSE

>> Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series

>>on his favourite cats! Has anyone any more information about this, has

>>it been broadcast yet?

Now this is something. I've been more & more interested in WSB's affinities

with

TSE lately. (T. S. Eliot, that is.) They have St. Louis & Harvard in common.

And

both specialized in a cut-up style, layering multiple voices. (Somewhere I came

across a cut-up by Burroughs of The Waste Land--cut-up of a cut-up, all-out

puree.--

Does anyone know where I saw this?) Now I hear that WSB is doing some sort of

cat

thing. Is it conscious emulation?

BTW, TSE reading the end of Book II of the Waste Land sounds just like our

birthday

boy.

Andrew

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:51 +1300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Missing Texts

Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

books I'm after.

Pull my daisy

Wake up

Some of the dharma

Thanks.

Tim.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:27:09 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

> works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

> that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

> Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

> because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

> historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

>

I think that any critical and intelligent reader is capable of separating the

historical figures from the work, itself. So it is entirely possible,

and even recommended to both read (listen to) the words and let them

stand alone but to also think about the men behind the poetry and/or prose.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to resort to cliches, but don't look at this in terms of preaching

to the converted. This is in many ways a critical time for the Beat writers

in that they are near the edge of becoming recognized literary figures in the

academic canon. Maybe that is exactly what they sought to avoid, but it

seems that Allen selling his papers and many of the feuds with Jack's estate

are based on the hope that they will become recoginzed by the literary

community. Obviously if we are on this list, we perceive them as something

beyond the media portrayal of black turtlenecked bohemian snapping their

fingers. In order to get others to even pick them up, maybe we need to

get away from the Pop aspects and that may only be able to be done by

looking at the texts in and of themselves.

But then, do I really want those people reading and discussing these works?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:34:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Missing Texts (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

books I'm after.

Pull my daisy

Wake up

Some of the dharma

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there was a book on pull my daisy at the Whitney shop, but I don't recall if

it had a transcript in it. Anyway, you'd need to get there in the next

twelve hours since it closes permanently on Sunday.

For new copies of any Beat text try City Lights. Their selection is phenomenal

City Lights

261 Columbus Avenue

San Francisco, CA 94133

415-362-8193

They have a web address but I can't find it.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:42:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: More OTR Ravings

I had started out to respond to all the interesting comments on

my proposition that the major conclusion of OTR is that "God is an

interesting con man." Instead I will try to be a little more

clear on what I meant by this. First what I didn't mean: Neal

Cassady is God. As others have well documented, Neal was

certainly thought of as a con man by most, perhaps all of his

friends. However, I am not trying to say that because he was a

con man he was somehow God-like. What I think Kerouac was doing

either intentionally or unintentionally was to develop a metaphor

based on autobiographical material which examines the ambivalent

role that our beliefs play in our lives -- either our beliefs in

one another -- is this person/friend trying to con me? -- or our

religious beliefs -- is this religion the Truth? Both of these

themes run constantly throughout OTR.

Nor do a think that Jack Kerouac ever sat down and said: "The

major conclusion of OTR is that God is an interesting con man."

What he did do is become very interested in Buddhism. He

finished OTR in April 1951 and became interested in Buddhism in

early 1954. If you ask a Christian whether Christ was the son of

God or an interesting con man he or she will most definitely

answer -- well I don't need to say, but if you ask a Buddhist

whether the Buddha was a manifestation of God or an interesting

con man he or she is more than likely to say "YES." Which is to

say these are not mutually exclusive categories. We must learn

to live with our ambivalences -- and with the postmodern

condition (is JK more PoMo than we thought?).

So when I say that this is the major conclusion of OTR, what I am

saying is this is where Kerouac found himself at the end of the

book. A recent post mentioned the sadness of OTR, and this is

very telling. I think that Kerouac's "real" name in the book is

"Sad Paradise" which captures exactly what this ambivalence is

about.

A note on Liz, Howard and others' comments about random thoughts.

I don't think it is possible for people to have random thoughts -

- in the statistical sense of the word. All our thoughts are

biased (statistically speaking) by our genetic makeup, our

upbringing, and prior random events -- but they are our thoughts.

What Burroughs tried to do with cut-ups (and others like John

Cage) was to introduce more randomness into the process. But

Burroughs came to believe that even these were not random at all

but "were prophetic subliminal announcements." Literary Outlaw,

p322 - Morgan's words not WSB's. I would contend that automatic

writing is not random thinking but is the result of the artist's

prior experiences, investigations, discipline, talent etc. -- but

perhaps I am beating up on a straw man here since the prior use

of the word may have had a different connotation for Liz and Howard.

I agree with Liz and others that I can not know what Kerouac

"intended" when he wrote the line about God and Winnie the Pooh,

but I can not imagine a less Cassady-like character than Winnie

the Pooh -- so in that way I would not say that it is a random

thought. Intentional or not, WtP-as-God is the perfect

antithesis to the thesis which I have put forward above and

therefore its interjection here would lend credence to the notion

that JK was actively and intentionally mulling this possibility

over.

As regards the book's final line: "...I think of

Dean Moriarty, I even think of Old Dean Moriarty the father we

never found, I think of Dean Moriarty," which invokes a trinity. I can

not say whether Kerouac intended to invoke a trinity, but given

his background I would not say it was random.

Anyhow, because we know so much biographical information about

Kerouac, trying to figure out meanings intended, unintended or as

Levi says, "secret" becomes great sport -- of course in the end

the only person I am really revealing anything about is myself --

but that my friends is a whole other kettle o' fish.

Happy Gertrude Stein's Birthday!

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:15:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@BOSSHOG.ARTS.UWO.CA>

Subject: subscribe

does anyone here now how I subscribe to this list?

pjaeger@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:36:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts (fwd)

"Pull My Daisy" was, I think, a film with Ginsberg, Jack, etc. Did you want

the screenplay, if there was one? For the others, try City Lights in San

Fran, Spring Street Bookstore in New York or St. Mark's Bookstore in the

East Village, NYC.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:51:39 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

Hi Perry,

I first want to say that these comments I am making are not meant tobe

flames or knocks. I just disagree with what you're saying. That's the fun

part for all of us. i appreciate your effort to present new stuff for

discussion.

>Nor do a think that Jack Kerouac ever sat down and said: "The

>major conclusion of OTR is that God is an interesting con man."

>What he did do is become very interested in Buddhism. He

>finished OTR in April 1951 and became interested in Buddhism in

>early 1954. If you ask a Christian whether Christ was the son of

>God or an interesting con man he or she will most definitely

>answer -- well I don't need to say, but if you ask a Buddhist

>whether the Buddha was a manifestation of God or an interesting

>con man he or she is more than likely to say "YES." Which is to

>say these are not mutually exclusive categories. We must learn

>to live with our ambivalences -- and with the postmodern

>condition (is JK more PoMo than we thought?).

>

Here I don't agree at all. I don't think Buddhists would say Buddha is an

intersting con man. They take Buddhism very seriously.

I find many aspects of Buddhism and many aspects of catholicism to be very

similar. The iconography and ritual are very similar. A couple weeks ago

we went to our friends wedding. They are a Vietnamese couple who are

Catholic, not Buddhist. After the wedding at lunch at the mother of the

groom's house they did something that is almost exactly the same as my

fundamentalist Buddhist in-laws might do. There was a big shrine there

with the Virgin Mary stature as the cetnerpiece. They had food and stuff

on it the same way that my in-laws leave sugar, rice etc...on there shrine.

My in-laws shrine is topped by a picture of their sect's (True Buddha--it

has a web page or two if you are interested in looking) living master

Buddha dude. The couple, after the ceremony at the others house lit

incense and held the burning sticks and bowed a few times before the

shrine. This is virtually exactly what I've seen my father in law do to

his shrine. It struck me how similar the rituals and iconography are with

the relevant substitutions for Buddhism vs. Catholicism. I am not saying

this form of Buddhism and this form of Catholicism are idential or equal,

but the outward manifestations are extremely alike. Analogously in many

ways Zen Buddhism strikes me very much like certain aspects of

Protestantism. I read D.T. Suzuki before I read imitation of Christ by

Thomas a kempis and the similarities in the aphorisms was very apparent to

me.(Once again I am not saying Zen and certain aspects of protestantism are

identical, just that there are similarities).

This is why Kerouac's Catholicism and Buddhism have never struck me as

being at odds with each other. Read mexico fellaheen from Lonesome

Traveller.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 01:01:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

In-Reply-To: <960129132543.3155@louisville.lib.ky.us>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone was aware if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

> Swami Muktananda before studying with Chogyam Trungpa. If so, was the

> association short-lived or what?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Paul McDonald

> Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

Here is a quote from _Dharma Lion_, a massive Ginsberg bio by Michael

Schumacher:

"Such cynicism, expressed by other Ginsberg detractors,

symbolized a significant misunderstanding of Allen's long-held interest in

Eastern religion, philosophy, and art. If anything, he was moving closer

to establishing the meditation practice that he would undertake for the

rest of his lifre. That autumn, after making a brief reading trip to

Puerto Rico, Bermuda, and the Virgin Islands, he returned to New York

City, where he met Swami Muktananda, who helped him begin a daily

hour-long meditation practice. A short time before that, he had met

Tibetan Buddhist guru Chogyam Trungpa in a chance encounter on the

street in Manhattan. Trungpa's assistant recognized Allen, and the poet

and Buddhist teacher exchanged addresses, beginning a very important

friendship."

This is the only mention of the Swami Muktananda in the entire near-700

page text of this book. It seems very safe to assume that their

association was quite short-lived, though it's hard to tell just how short.

This is a great bio, if only for the sheer volume of detail it includes.

There's good stuff on the relationship between Ginsberg & Timothy Leary,

especially when the latter was carrying out his LSD & psilocybin mushroom

experiments, as well as on the details of the developments of

relationships between Ginsberg, Kerouac, Cassady, and the West Coast

kids, & later with Bob Dylan & others, as well as just about everyone

else he ever came into contact with, even just seeing them at a distance

on a crowded street (well, it *is* massive). It was put out by St.

Martin's Press, in New York, in 1992.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:45:22 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

In-Reply-To: <960203164219_135030750@emout10.mail.aol.com>

On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Perry Lindstrom wrote:

> A note on Liz, Howard and others' comments about random thoughts.

> I don't think it is possible for people to have random thoughts -

> - in the statistical sense of the word. All our thoughts are

> biased (statistically speaking) by our genetic makeup, our

> upbringing, and prior random events -- but they are our thoughts.

> What Burroughs tried to do with cut-ups (and others like John

> Cage) was to introduce more randomness into the process. But

> Burroughs came to believe that even these were not random at all

> but "were prophetic subliminal announcements." Literary Outlaw,

> p322 - Morgan's words not WSB's. I would contend that automatic

> writing is not random thinking but is the result of the artist's

> prior experiences, investigations, discipline, talent etc. -- but

> perhaps I am beating up on a straw man here since the prior use

> of the word may have had a different connotation for Liz and Howard.

>

If you want to dive into the most interesting... I'd say... product of

"automatic writing," and how it's used, refined, let go-- all impossibly

poor explanantion-- grab a copy of Yeats' "A Vision." A prepare for a ride.

sjc

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:38:09 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

>>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

>>

>>> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned

>>>*Steppenwolf*. At

>>> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

>>> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

>>> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

>>

>> right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

>>60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

>>became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's,

>

><snip>

>

>> fws, taipei

>

>Nice observation,

>

>don't forget to duck and cover in March. (just kidding--I hope)

>

>Tim

>

coming in on this a bit late - due to bad dose of flu - but lying in my bed

sneezing and snuffling I was checking through Big Sur looking for a

reference to something else and chanced upon the following passage:

'Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness of that little wire

scourer, those little yellow copper things you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents

all to me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and senseless

"Steppenwolf" novel in the shack which I read with a shrug, this old fart

reflecting the "conformity" of today and all the while he thought he was a

big Nietzsche, old imitator of Dostoevsky fifty years too late...'

'Big Sur:' p. 31.

- harsh, but true, I think?

rod w.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:04:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: mexico city blues

sunday, 4th Feb.

Does anyone have any information about the 1st chorus of Mexico City Blues,

especially the last section: The same voice on the same ship/The Supreme

Vehicle/S.S. Excalibur/Maynard etc.? I get the buddhist reference - Supreme

Vehicle - but what relevance did S.S. Excalibur have for kerouac? In Book

of Dreams there is a mention of this ship sailing of to Cuba or Panama (I

forget - haven't the book to hand) but was this some boat operating out of

Mexico or Kerouac transposing in his dream a ship he'd sailed on, either in

the Merchant Marine or elsewhere? Also: is Maynard a place? I checked the

atlas for this, and there is a Maynard in Washington State, but i don't see

the immediate relevance. One final thing: is the quoted voice Bill Garver?

And 'stock and joint' a reference to his drug stash? Any help gratefully

received - I've got most of the poem down, but this first bit I find

puzzling with regard to the exact references - my nit-picking brain,

probably - or the fact that I'm a Brit, writing about the poem at a distance

from the U.S.

Rod Warner University of Aberystwyth, UK.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:00:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Delancy <joehler@REDROSE.NET>

Subject: John Fante

Hey,

I just joined the list, so please excuse this posting if it's not

appropriate, since i'm not sure if you all consider John Fante a beat

generation writer. Anyways, I've read practically all of his books, and

wanted to see his films, but have looked to no avail! Well, i looked in

Blockbuster, the only major video store around here, and they didn't have

one Fanter film. Wait Until Spring, Bandini, has Faye Dunaway in it, so i'd

imagine it was distributed pretty much, but they didn't have it. So, what i

was wondering is, has anyone ever seen his films? Or know of a place that

sells his videos? Thank you much in advance!

joehler@redrose.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:18:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: mexico city blues

On Feb 04, 1996 22:04:44,

'raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU' wrote:

>And 'stock and joint' a reference to his drug stash? Any help

Can't help you with Excalibur or Maynard, but stock and joint used to refer

to a hobo's possessions, as it were, or his "set-up" or situation. I would

lean toward this rather than the drug reference.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:24:15 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Subscribe to Beat-L mailing list

Can you please add me to the Beat-L mailing list.

peent@servtech.com

This is a change of address.If possible, can you remove my previous address

peent@aol.com

Thank you,

Michael Czarnecki

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:48:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: WSB & TSE

Hey folks.

someone wrote:

>> Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series on his favourite cats!

Has anyone any more information about this, has it been broadcast yet?

And andrew Howald replied:

Now this is something. I've been more & more interested in WSB's affinities

with TSE lately. (T. S. Eliot, that is.) They have St. Louis & Harvard in

common.

And both specialized in a cut-up style, layering multiple voices. (Somewhere

I came

across a cut-up by Burroughs of The Waste Land--cut-up of a cut-up, all-out

puree.--

Does anyone know where I saw this?) Now I hear that WSB is doing some sort of

cat thing. Is it conscious emulation?

BTW, TSE reading the end of Book II of the Waste Land sounds just like our

birthday boy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Add to that: the collaboration of TSE and EP had a major impact, there was

some sort of synergy there, as there was with AG and Burroughs.

But still I don't think that it's conscious emulation.

Eliot spend a lot of time and effort on criticism, and our birthday boy

certainly has not. I've heard that Eliot kept the private life WAY in the

background, and, although Burroughs has sometimes been cited as attempting to

be private, el hombre invisible and all that, he's a huge public figure.

It's fun to think about, though.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:49:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Character references

Hello again.

I think that "just looking at the texts themselves" is a big mistake. You

have to learn everything you can about a work, at least all that's cogent,

and in K's case, you have to look outside the text as well, once you realize

that there's something out there worth looking at.

On the first reading of OTR, I was truly disappointed. I had read some

biographical materiel on JK, and I finished the book thinking "could this guy

invent ANYTHING?". i could see the invention of a major style, but that

wasn't enough for me.

Now that I look at it sort of like this

A <----------> some of JK's life experiences

B <----------> text of OTR.

The exploration of how he got from A to B is the key, I must believe.

All the complaining about the "Beats aren't getting their literary due" is

rapidly nearing a massive whine. If it's because certain people can't get

beyond the beatnik/ "hey, daddy-o" image, that's too bad, but it's not our

loss. It's theirs.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:06:09 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Janet Hoelle <97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>

I WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR MAILING LIST. PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR LIST.

NICOLE HOELLE

97jhoell@ultrix.uor.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:56:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

For the major application of "automatic writing" see Gertrude Stein. She

wrote a thesis on it when she studied with James at Harvard. Her composition

methods described by Souhami seem to be a use of hypnogogic and hypnopompic

states of consciousness for her compositions, with Alice B. typing it up the

next day.

Dan Lauffer

<I'm with you in Rockland>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:52:37 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Harold Carrington

I am trying to track down mss. and letters from the late poet Harold

Carrington, who died mostly unpublished in the early sixties -- Would be

much interested in hearing from anyone who knows location of any

Carrington papers --

Also looking for current address, if there is one, for Ray Bremser, who

was a friend of Carrington's --

Lastly, for now, trying to solve a puzzle. Ray Bremser published two

versions of a piece titled "Drive Suite." Several years later, a version

of the poem was published in Paul Breman's Heritage Series and attributed

to Carrington -- I suspect that somebody found a ms. of the poem among

Carrington's stuff and was confused, but it could also be that they

worked on it together -- Does anybody know anything about this??

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:13:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

Comments: To: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Pull My Daisy: I don't believe there is anything published (if it

is the script of the film you're interested in), though the poem that

was written by Ginsberg/Kerouac of that same title and written in the

late forties has been published. The film, Pull My Daisy, was said to

be based on a three-act play Kerouac wrote called The Beat

Generation, the scenario of the movie being the third act.

Wake Up and Some of the Dharma are basically unpublished, though

the Buddhist mag Tricycle began (at least) to serialize Wake Up . I'd

read rumors that Some of the Dharma would be published at the end of

last year, but so far, no go.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:12:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dave Quattro <quattro@DCSEQ.USCGA.EDU>

Subject: thoughts?

i'd like to see what a bunch of beatniks think of ayn rand... anyone,

anyone? i know she's no JK, but as beatniks, we're thinkers too, right?

here's some thoughts too.

ayn rand has backed herself up well. she says that people who deserve a

social contract are those who understand that it's exactly that. we all

rely on each other. if you're not participating in the production of

things, pretty much if you don't have a monster frigging work ethic, then

you're part of the destruction. ayn rand also feels very strongly on this:

too many people don't understand, don't care. too many people leave things

up to a question: "Who is John Galt?" too many people just say, "oh well -

it's something i can't understand, a catch 22. it can't be helped." she

hates that. ayn rand calls bullshit on society. she says that that

attitude is death. it is leachness, and it is evil. but you know what it

really is? cognative dissonance.

when you trust... you leave yourself open to the imperfections of others.

you WILL pay for their mistakes. (unavoidable? i don't know.)

i used to want to be a simple farmer - living off what i grow, making no

profit, keeping chickens and maybe some pigs/cows/horses... a simple life

in the country free of nuclear bombs and traffic jams. and if a nuclear

bomb or radon gas kills me, well i can melt or choke knowing that i had

absolutely nothing to do with it, and i'd be free.

BUT i have grown out of this, because i don't want to be the farmer who is

self sufficient and doing fine but oh! he has no teeth, because he refuses

to buy the toothbrush that's manufactured. when my cows all get

hemerhoids, i am not too proud to take them to the vet... when my child

becomes deathly ill, i'm not so proud that i will just let him/her die...

when there's a flood, i'm not too proud to borrow some seeds or grain from

my neighbor.

there are things on earth - natural things out of our control that do not

allow us to live a perfectly lonely life. life is unpredictable. it's

impossible to plan for everything (anything).

where's this guy going with this? i don't know - randomesque thoughts.

upon rereading, i see that i've got some incoherency and idea hopping, but

oh well.

so what's the solution? here's what i think: remember ayn's power... and

remebmer dave's farmer power too. it's up to all of us to decide what

solution is appropriate in what situation.

learn & teach

- D=AA=88=A1=8F Q=B5=C5=DDt=AE=9A

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:09:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

Thanks Rod W. for the quote from _Big Sur_ which apparently

is critical of Hesse's _Steppenwolf_. Earlier in Jan., Dan

Barth also quoted a part of that quote, but I missed the

"old fart....trying to be like Nietzsche...Dostoyevsky" part.

(Can I assume that this refers to Harry Haller, or do you

suppose JK is alluding to Hesse??-- If he means ol' Hesse,

this is a dandy quote, and somewhat accurate.)

I will have to have a closer look at _Big Sur_, as I am not familiar

with it, but that quote is very telling. I am, frankly, surprised

that _Steppenwolf_ would not appeal to JK. I am sure many

of you are familiar with this work, so I will spare you the

details, but it is essentially about an artist (outsider) in

search of himself. In his search, he discovers his sexuality

(and the notions of multiply partners, homosexuality and prostitution),

Dionysian music (in the 20's this was dance music-- forerunner

to jazz), murder and crime, and lastly drugs (the drug influence

in the novel has been questioned, but most critics agree that

drugs play at least a "minor" role). In a nutshell,

_Steppenwolf_ would seem to share many of the "Beat Generation

ideals", I think (I am no Beat expert, so correct me if I am

wrong!!)

Despite all of my ruminations and arguments, JK may have despised

Hesse's _Steppenwolf_ and perhaps saw nothing in it he even

remotely liked (which, in _Big Sur_, appears to be the case).

So......if _Steppenwolf_ did not influence JK (or any of the Beats),

then I guess I am wrong.

Not the first time!!

Any ideas..... ?

Trevor Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:31:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

I was wondering if anyone knew if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

Swami Muktananda Paramahansa before deciding that Chogyam Trungpa would be his

primary teacher. I read a little about him and Muktananda in "Dharma Lion"

and the bio by Barry Miles, but it is very short. Apparently Muktnanada made

quite an impression on him, according to a statements Ginsberg made in an

interview I read on the net. Any info about this association would be greatly

appreciated.

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:11:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: TSE-WSB

But waaaait a minute -- TSE & WSB were on real opposite sides of the fence.

I think perhaps the most major diff was that WSB always made it a point not

to be judgmental; Eliot, on the other hand, became the arbiter for at least a

decade of American Literature, and the stuff he was involved in publishing

(as editor at Faber & Faber) so closed down the local/vernacular/experimental

possibilities of American poetry that a generation of poets -- including many

beat influenced poets like Creeley, etc., found in Eliot the great villain of

a New American verse. See intro to Poetics of the New American Poetry, a

volume which includes Pound, WC Williams and Stein as forbears but

deliberately EXCLUDES TSE. Eliot would not have published (and was a major

influence on the publishing industry that resisted publishing) Jack, Bill,

Allen, etc. He WAS the canon (directly or indirectly) throughout the 40s &

50s. Yes he was an experimental, cut-up using, marginal poet in the late

teens and early twenties, BUT once given power he used it very ungenerously

and dogmatically.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

Pull My Daisy (text and pictures from the film) was published by Grove in

paperback in the early sixties or late 1950's. It is extremely rare and has

been out of print for decades. The only time I ever saw it the asking price

was something like $100.

If anyone ever sees it at a garage sale or used bookstore at a reasonable

price, buy it!

As for Kerouac's Buddhist writings, I would be surprised if they are not out

by the end of the year given the resurgence of interest in all things beat

these days.

Anyone know when the next volume of JK letters will be out?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:33:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500 from <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500 Howard Park said:

>Pull My Daisy (text and pictures from the film) was published by Grove in

>paperback in the early sixties or late 1950's. It is extremely rare and has

>been out of print for decades. The only time I ever saw it the asking price

>was something like $100.

>If anyone ever sees it at a garage sale or used bookstore at a reasonable

>price, buy it!

Howard scooped me. I was writing a similar response when my computer

hung up. When I got back, he'd passed along the appropriate information.

There was a copy of the book in the Whitney show, as well as the

transcription Alfred Leslie had made of the act of Kerouac's play

The Beat Generation, on which the film is based.

The gift shop at the Whitney also had copies of Pull My Daisy on VHS for

sale: "First Video Release," the package trumpets. It cost $40, and

the only indication of the source of the tape release is a note on the

back concerning the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston (phone 713 639 7531),

and its circulating collection of film and video by Robert Frank.

The print used for the video transfer, interestingly enough, is a

pre-release version, interestingly enough, which carries the original

title of the film, The Beat Generation, rather than Pull My Daisy.

This, I'm presuming, is the print Frank reportedly unearthed a few

years ago and placed in the Houston museum.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:11:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Saint Ayn

Comments: cc: quattro@dcseq.uscga.edu

Dave Quattro asks:

>i'd like to see what a bunch of beatniks think of ayn rand... >anyone,

anyone? i know she's no JK, but as beatniks, we're >thinkers too, right?

We're both running the risk of being flamed for topic deviance here, but I'll

take a stab at this:

In that Ayn Rand was an iconoclast, who often went against the grain and was

spurned by the academic establishment as a consequence, a thinker who

challenged "collective reality" and championed the individual, I can see a

connection with the gestalt of the Beats. However, the comparison can't be

carried much further, I think. Rand was extremely intolerant of ambiguities,

be those aesthetic or moral. (Her credo, borrowed from Aristotle, can be

summed up as: " A is A".) And she utterly detested mysticism. So, I doubt

that she would ever have sought out the Beats (indeed, I seem to recall that

she made some rather disparaging remarks about Beat culture), and had she

found herself in a room with Kerouac, Ginsberg, or Burroughs (let alone Neal

Cassady), I think she would have left in very short order, her cigarette

holder held high.

Interesting question, though. As an aside, I'd have to add that a number of

post-Beat '60s rebels ended up reading Ayn Rand and digging what she had to

say, myself included. And there are distinctly libertarian threads in both

the philosophy of Rand and the yearnings of the Beats. Rand has had the

misfortune, I think, to have been much maligned by the left, with the result

that many otherwise open-minded people have developed a knee-jerk antipathy

to the mention of her name. More's the pity.

On the other hand I don't recall ever reading anything by Hermann Hesse.

Luther Jett, preparing now to duck and cover . . .

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:32:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Happy B'Day

Happy 82nd Berfday WSB wherever you are!

I wrote to the Bradford exchange trying to persuade them to do a

commemorative plate for his 80th, but they never responded. Strangely enough

I suggested a vision of Burroughs with the American flag flying behind him --

which was the exact image that I later saw in the Burroughs video --

Commisioner of Sewers (right title?) -- very strange.

I assume the people who keep asking about Burroughs and his cats are aware of

his cat book -- if not, it's out there and it is serious -- I have dogs and

birds so we wouldn't get along on that topic -- although I have to admit to

also being fond of cats.

Perry

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:44:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James M Spear <jspear@COUGARNET.BYU.EDU>

Subject: plese remove

would the responsible party remove me from this list thanx

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:48:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Saint Ayn

On Feb 05, 1996 21:11:23, '"W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>Rand has had the

>misfortune, I think, to have been much maligned by the left, with the

result

>that many otherwise open-minded people have developed a knee-jerk

antipathy

>to the mention of her name. More's the pity.

I, too, read a lot of Ayn Rand (much more of the beats) and at probably too

young an age. I do know that her book "Anthem" was a cause celebre of the

right (wm f. buckley in particular) in the 60's and her killer capitalist

ideas in "fountainhead" and Atlas shrugged" were maligned by what was then

called the left. She seems almost antithetical to what a lot of the beats

were saying and doing then, although I'm sure Jerry Rubin later followed

some of her precepts. And that was really pitiful!

Mark Johnson

smark@nyc.pipeline.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:08:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Buddhism v Catholicism

I read an interesting article by the Dalai Lama regarding the similarities

of Buddhism and Christianity. A few examples of places where he found

similarities: In Buddhism, there is a belief that every living person posses

the seed of Buddha-nature, and in Christianity, there is the idea that all

people are created in God's likeness. His Holiness found the greatest

similarities between Buddhist and Christian monks however, specifically that

both Christian & Buddhist monks practice a way of life which involve

commitment, simplicity & modesty. He also compares the vows taken by

Christian monks to such Buddhist principles as Pratimiksha Sutra.

This article can be found in the may 1995 edition of "Shambhala Sun," where

there is also an article by Father Robert Kennedy about the areas where

Catholicism and Buddhism can find common ground. (Kenney is a Jesuit preist

and zen teacher - a good person to read if you're interested in further

exploring the connection between Buddhism & Catholicism).

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 03:27:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: TSE-WSB

>But waaaait a minute -- TSE & WSB were on real opposite sides of the fence.

>I think perhaps the most major diff was that WSB always made it a point not

>to be judgmental; Eliot, on the other hand, became the arbiter for at least a

>decade of American Literature, and the stuff he was involved in publishing

>(as editor at Faber & Faber) so closed down the local/vernacular/experimental

>possibilities of American poetry that a generation of poets -- including many

>beat influenced poets like Creeley, etc., found in Eliot the great villain of

>a New American verse. See intro to Poetics of the New American Poetry, a

>volume which includes Pound, WC Williams and Stein as forbears but

>deliberately EXCLUDES TSE. Eliot would not have published (and was a major

>influence on the publishing industry that resisted publishing) Jack, Bill,

>Allen, etc. He WAS the canon (directly or indirectly) throughout the 40s &

>50s. Yes he was an experimental, cut-up using, marginal poet in the late

>teens and early twenties, BUT once given power he used it very ungenerously

>and dogmatically.

>Ted Pelton

Ted, I certainly get your drift here and mostly agree. For one thing, as

has

already been pointed out by William Miller, WSB has always eschewed literary

criticism (thank god that's been true of most of the beats!) whereas TSE

couldn't stop pontificating. Still I see resemblances however. Isn't Bull Lee

in OTR a little like the pontifical Possum? And where is it that Burroughs

quotes, without irony, the Eliot line "After such knowledge, what forgiveness"?

(Apologies for being without texts.) And WHERE is that damn cut-up he did of

the Waste Land?

I don't know if WSB and TSE were "on real opposite sides of the fence"

but they were certainly a generation apart. WSB was eight when the

Waste Land appeared. I myself find it impossible to imagine Naked Lunch

as we know it without the Waste Land, and this is not just for technical

reasons

(though the similarites in technique are strong). It is more for a certain

sense

of the grotesquely comic that the two works share.

I admit these are just impressions. I mean to delve further. Before I go

let me add that Gary Snyder has called TSE's Four Quartets a major work.

Yours,

Andrew

"These men, and those who opposed them

And those whom they opposed

Accept the constitution of silence

And are folded in a single party."

--Little Gidding

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:37:31 -0500

Reply-To: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@BOSSHOG.ARTS.UWO.CA>

Subject: Re: Buddhism v Catholicism

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.uwo.ca>

In-Reply-To: <960206010858_415632725@emout07.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Liz Prato wrote:

> I read an interesting article by the Dalai Lama regarding the similarities

> of Buddhism and Christianity. A few examples of places where he found

> similarities: In Buddhism, there is a belief that every living person posses

> the seed of Buddha-nature, and in Christianity, there is the idea that all

> people are created in God's likeness. His Holiness found the greatest

> similarities between Buddhist and Christian monks however, specifically that

> both Christian & Buddhist monks practice a way of life which involve

> commitment, simplicity & modesty. He also compares the vows taken by

> Christian monks to such Buddhist principles as Pratimiksha Sutra.

>

> This article can be found in the may 1995 edition of "Shambhala Sun," where

> there is also an article by Father Robert Kennedy about the areas where

> Catholicism and Buddhism can find common ground. (Kenney is a Jesuit preist

> and zen teacher - a good person to read if you're interested in further

> exploring the connection between Buddhism & Catholicism).

>

> Liz

>

Thomas Merton's _Thoughts on the East_ (New directions 1995), a

collection of earlier essays, is also a good way to enter into

catholic/buddhist dialogue. Merton writes on his meeting with the Dalai

Lama: "It was a very warm and cordial discussion and at the end I felt

we had become very good friends and were somehow quite close to one

another. I felt a great respect and fondness for him as a person and

believe, too, that there is a real spiritual bond between us. He

remarked that I was a "Catholic geshe," which, Harold said, was the

highest psooble praise from a Gelugpa, like an honorary doctorate!"

-Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:52:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Cheever on Kerouac

Not to belabor the obvious, but the characters who inhabit John

Cheever's fiction couldn't be any further from the spirits of those

Kerouac sketched in his work. But I found it interesting, in this 1958

entry from John Cheever's Journals, this commentary, based obviously

on THE SUBTERRANEANS, but pretending to encompass and understand all

of what Kerouac was about in his writing. There's no mention that

he's read OTR or DHARMA BUMS, which would've been published by the

time SUBTERRANEANS came out, but he certainly has a sort of extra-

literary ax to grind (as, it seemed, so many folks did at the time),

appearing not to attack the work so much as its author and/or his

lifestyle:

"My first feelings about the Kerouac book were: that it was not

good; that most of its accents or effects were derived from some of

the real explorers, like Saul; and that the apocalyptic imagery was

not good enough-- was never lighted by true talent, or deep feeling,

vision. It pleased me to catch him at a disadvantage, to sum up the

facts, which could reflect on my lack of innocence. Here is a man of

thirty who lives with his hard-working mother, cooks supper for her

when she gets home from the store, has a shabby affair with a poor

Negress-- who knows so little about herself that she is easy prey--

wrestles, very suspiciously, with his pals, weeps in a train yard

where his mother's image appears to him, discovers that he is

deceived, and writes a book. The style has the advantages, to make a

rough comparison, of abstract painting. When we give up lucidity we

have, from time to time, the power of broader associations. Life is

chaotic, and so we can state this in chaotic terms. In trying to

catch him at a disadvantage, I find him vulgar, meaning perhaps

unsophisticated-- his sexual identity, his prowess, is not much. He

is a writer and wants to be a famous writer, a rich writer, and a

successful writer, but the question of excellence never seems to

cross his mind. The question of the greatest depth of feeling,

of speaking with the greatest urgency. My life is very different from

what he describes. There is almost no point where our emotions and

affirs correspond. I am most deeply and continuously involved in the

love of my wife and my children. It is my passion to present to my

children the opportunity of life. That this, this passion, has not

reformed my nature is well known. But there is some wonderful

seriousness to the business of living, and one is not exempted by

being a poet. You have to take some precautions with your health. You

have to manage your money intelligently and respect your emotional

obligations. There is another world--I see this--there is chaos, and

we are suspended above it by a thread. But the thread holds. People

who seek, who are driven to seek, love in urinals, do not deserve the

best of our attention. They will be forgiven, and anyhow, sometimes

they are not seeking love; they are seeking a means to express their

hatred and suspicion of the world. Sometimes."

The first reference, to what Cheever sees as derivative similarities

between Kerouac, and... does he mean Saul Bellow? Can anyone make

sense of this?

But primarily, I find it interesting that, in a sense, Cheever WANTS

to like the man, he wants to like the work, but there is something he

finds "uncomfortable" in K's writing, something that unsettles him,

and he weaves in and out of relevent attacks, now chastising him as

would an elder writer a younger one (he was only 10 years older

than K, though a century away from K in attitude), then practically

accusing him of writing from a very base, almost smutty and

irresponsible point of view (exposing Cheever's puritanism, his

priggishness, not his literary critical acumen), but coming back, it

seems to a very vague interest in K, but as what? We're not sure.

(Kerouac's sudden rocket to fame might have something to do with

this, in that Cheever achieved a steady though slower rise to reknown

as a writer; jealously, I guess, can't be ruled out.) I think it shows

Cheever's confusion when it comes to his comprehension of what is

acceptable or what constitutes, to him, an unacceptable lifestyle.

Cheever exhibited as much contradiction and confusion in his personal

life, if not in his writing, something he seems to be attacking K for

in this entry. What I will say in Cheever's favor, though, is that he

seems to be trying to write his way into making some sense of what is

to him, essentially, something new, something unusual (not flippantly

writing K off as, say, Capote did), though his prejudices carry him

much of that way to a very strange and, I think, unresolved

conclusion.

Anyone have any other take on this?

Clay

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:14:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day

Thanks to Perry Lindstrom for the happy birthday greetings to William.

Basically, he's the only reason I'm on this list, which apparently gets

mainly Kerouac action (that's the fault of us Burroughs people, I know)

I'll just salute the old man again for giving us writing well into his

seventies.

Thanks, Mr. Burroughs.

William Miller

PS The passage in _The Cat Inside_ in which the schoolmaster at Los Alamos

kills the badger (or some small mammal) is simply perfect Burroughs.

Profoundly sad situation. Described, the old man makes it seem hilarious.

Folks, read it if you haven't.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:20:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Thanks to Perry Lindstrom for the happy birthday greetings to William.

Basically, he's the only reason I'm on this list, which apparently gets

mainly Kerouac action (that's the fault of us Burroughs people, I know)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I think Perry's comments are perceptive but don't know if I'd

go that far.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:29:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

I agree with all you said, Clay... but what crossed my mind while reading

your post was "I wonder what Jack thought of Cheever?"

Had Jack been of the type to type out a review, say, of some of Cheever's

early stuff... what would he have said?

I think that there was a significant want in Jack's later self to become

like those Wapshot bigshots, taking-in the late morning poolside glass of

gin... smug, satisfied, and beholding to their secrets.

Not much is known of Jack's days in Northport... and article/interview here

and there. I wonder how close Jack came to the pool in those days?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:55:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <v01510102ad3d084bde7b@[198.110.207.218]>

Check out Cheever's "Falconer" written in 1977, a tale of alcoholism,

self-hatred, repressed homosexuality and madness. It is a lot closer to

Kerouac's "Big Sur" than any of the Wapshot type tales. It is also closer

to Cheever the human being, according to Susan Cheever, than the image of the

buttoned-down suburbanite more commonly known to the reading public.

Cheever was no Updike, the country club stuff was just a facade.

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:55:41 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

It does seem that Kerouac would have responded more favorably to the old

Steppenwolf. (By the way I just came across a reference in William Burrough's

book *Exterminator*, to "Audrey Carson's first literary exercise,

'Autobiography of a Wolf.'" I think young Burroughs really did write a piece

with that title.) Anyway . . . a few thoughts on Kerouac's reaction. 1) He

was an alcoholic experiencing severe mood swings (to put it mildly) so I

mistrust his reaction to the book; the next day he may have loved it. 2) I

wonder if he really read the entire book. 3) Later in *Big Sur* he talks

about "the magic game of glad freedom," cf. Magic Theatre, so maybe Hesse

influenced him more than he knew.

I don't agree that Haller or Hesse were uninteresting old farts; they were

very interesting old farts in my opinion. I see many similarities in Hesse

and Kerouac, two of my favorite writers, but no direct influence of Hesse on

Kerouac, just indirect influence and common influences such as Dostoevsky,

Nietzsche, Spengler and Bach.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:52:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mai kuha <mkuha@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Your help needed

Fellow netters,

I'm a graduate student in Linguistics and I'm writing to ask for your

help. I am interested in how people carry out conversations (a

surprisingly complex task!). Currently, I'm researching how people

interpret what their conversational partners say.

The reason I'm contacting you is that I need data from speakers from a

variety of dialect areas. Would you be willing to respond to a

questionnaire over e-mail? If you are, please send me a note at

mkuha@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

and I'll e-mail the questionnaire to you.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Mai Kuha

Indiana University, Bloomington

e-mail: mkuha@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:57:08 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: Re: missing texts

i remember talking to someone in a bar two years ago about JK and he mentioned

pull my daisy. He seemed to know alot about its making and also said he had a

copy of the film on video. i don't know how reliable his info was but i can

contact him again. is this any use? voshea@dit.ie

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:43:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: beat writers, current status

I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

If so, where are they living and what are they up to? I gather from the

posts of the past few days that Burroughs is still alive.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Andra

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Well, the wind keeps a-blowin' me

Up and down the street Andra Greenberg

With my hat in my hand Duke University

And my boots on my feet asg5@acpub.duke.edu

Watch out so you don't step on me

"Bob Dylan's Blues"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:10:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

My apologies: I hope the Hesse/Beat tangent is relevent here

and interesting.

Dan Barth's last post sheds a new light on the Hesse reception

in JK-- perhaps JK was truly more "influenced" by Hesse than

he thought. Given the circumstances around the time of

_Big Sur_ (as Dan points out), one must really question the

truth of JK's statements. We must also consider the authorial

perspective, which leads me to a question: are the words

in _Big Sur_ uttered by JK himself, or does there exist

the possibility of a (fictional?) narrator?? We must (in any

work of art) consider the degree of authorial influence--

often this approximates 100%, other times 0%. This was a

topic of recent list debate. But I digress.

Dan (or anyone else who might know), could you give me more

info. regarding this "Autobiography of a Wolf" (?) by Burroughs.

I, too, agree with Dan that neither Hesse nor Haller were

unnteresting old farts. They were certainly not uninteresting,

but I do think it could be argued that they were old farts, who

were able to put their respective "old-fartedness" behind them

(no pun intended) and transcend to higher levels of being.

Was this also not also a goal of many of the Beats??

Cheers,

Trevor Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:16:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Your help needed

>The reason I'm contacting you is that I need data from >speakers from a

variety of dialect areas. Would you be >willing to respond to a

questionnaire over e-mail?

Sure.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:17:56 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Janet Hoelle <97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

In-Reply-To: <01I0UU38IOVM8X9NLJ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

DEAR TREVOR,

IF you are interested in discovering what the Beat ideals were, you

should read GOOD BLONDE AND OTHERS by Jack Kerouac. I think the essays in

this compilation of works, reveal

what the essence of the Beat movement was. Also, if you want something on

Kerouac, the Ann Charters biography entitled Kerouac is the best I've

found yet.

NICOLE HOELLE

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:16:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day

On Feb 06, 1996 11:14:13, 'William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>I'll just salute the old man again for giving us writing well into his

>seventies.

>

>Thanks, Mr. Burroughs.

>

>William Miller

I met and interviewed ol' Bull Lee in the late 70's in his loft on Bowery

and Prince. I'm sure he still looks and sounds about the same. I'll never

forget him.

Mark Johnson

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:16:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

On Feb 06, 1996 13:55:24, 'Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>' wrote:

>Cheever was no Updike, the country club stuff was just a facade.

>

>Louis Proyect

For a more complete picture, read "Journals" by John Cheever. They are

completely autobiographical and shattered quite a few illusions. I don't

think they lessen his stature as a writer, but they give great insight into

the alcoholism, the bi-sexuality, etc.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:24:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "DOUGLAS W. WACKER" <dwacker@IN.NET>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

>Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

>by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

>books I'm after.

> Pull my daisy

> Wake up

> Some of the dharma

>

> Thanks.

> Tim.

You know, I'm not sure about this, but not long ago I saw a book called 'Big

Sky Mind

- Buddhism and the Beat Generation' and I think segments of 'Some of the

Dharma' were printed in there. I may be wrong because I was broke and

couldn't buy the book so I

just skimmed it. It might of just had sections of 'Scripture of the Golden

Eternity' (avail. through City Lights Publishing) in it. Hope I could

help.... Doug.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:32:15 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Holstad <sch@WELL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

In-Reply-To: <199602062043.PAA20964@jeter.acpub.duke.edu>

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Andra wrote:

> I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

Kerouac died in 1969. Ginsberg is alive and living in NYC.

> If so, where are they living and what are they up to?

I belive Ginsberg teaches at CUNY (at least at Brooklyn College), as well

as Naropa occasionally. Also tours/lectures, etc.

I gather from the

> posts of the past few days that Burroughs is still alive.

> Thanks in advance for any information.

> Andra

>

>

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> Well, the wind keeps a-blowin' me

> Up and down the street Andra Greenberg

> With my hat in my hand Duke University

> And my boots on my feet asg5@acpub.duke.edu

> Watch out so you don't step on me

> "Bob Dylan's Blues"

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 03:14:30 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph McNicholas <mcnichol@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Sarah Schulman

In Sarah Schulman's Girls Visions and Everything (Seal Press, 1986),

Kerouac's OTR is used as a reminder throughout of (among other things) the

tension between commitment to individuals and freedom, of the tension

between "stability and stagnation." One way she works out this tension is

to point out that the lesbian community could use the kind of self-generated

popular press that the Beats gave themselves. She says (p 59-60) "Guys like

Jack, William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg, some of them were smart and had

some good ideas and wrote some lasting and inspiring work. Mostly, though,

they weren't all the geniuses their reputations implied. The thing was,

they made a phenomenon of themselves. They made themselves into the

fashion, each quoting from the other, building an image based not so much on

their work as on the idea that they lead interesting lives. . . .that is

exactly what lesbians needed to do."

Often, this exact point is used as a criticism of the Beats. Yet Schulman,

who actually went on to do just that for lesbians through the Lesbian

Avengers, which started in 1992 as a political action/media blitz, used it

to try to affect real social change of consciousness. Although I am sure

that Schulman's feelings about the Beats is pretty mixed, I was excited to

see them fit into a continuing and very lively tradition of social and

artistic endeavor. I was wondering what the list might think, and if anyone

has more info about other groups who have found some modicum of inspiration

in the Beats, or more on Schulman, herself. I was also wondering if there

were lesbian beat writers who I may be unaware of.

_______________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________

Joseph McNicholas

mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________

Joseph McNicholas

mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:27:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Bob Donlin died

Founder of the legendary Cambridge, MA folk venue, Passim, and friend

of Jack Kerouac, who appeared in Jack's books under the name Bob

Donnelly, died on Monday, 5 Feb 1996, at the age of 72. Today's Boston

Globe has a memorial to him in the Living Arts section.

Mark Fisher

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:51:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Sarah Schulman

>I was also wondering if there

>were lesbian beat writers who I may be unaware of.

One you may be interested in is Eileen Myles. Check out Black Sparrow Press

Catalogs for "Maxwell Parish" and "Chelsea Girls".

i.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:01:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Jacobs <RJACOBS@THYME.UVM.EDU>

Organization: University of Vermont

Subject: Neal -- Happy Birthday

Neal Cassady February 8, 1926

An Aquarian, he embodied its characteristics: mentally brilliant,

dynamic, intense, and full of an explosive, electric-type energy that

shatters the old forms in order to make way for the new. At the same

time he represented a humane, non-judegemental benevolence that seeks

the brotherhood of man and promotes brotherly love; that gives

everyone the rgith to experience the "garden of earthly delights."

-Carolyn Cassady in Spit in the Ocean, Number 6.

-

Ron Jacobs\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\How in the heck

Bailey/Howe Library\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\will I wash my neck

University of Vermont\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\if it ain't

rjacobs@thyme.uvm.edu\\\\\\\\\\\\gonna' rain no more?

Burlington,VT USA

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:14:57 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: mexico city blues

For lots of insight into Kerouac's *Mexico City Blues* check out *A Map of

Mexico City Blues* by James T. Jones. In the back is an index of choruses.

He refers the S.S. Excalibur bit to a dream of Kerouac's (p.56, *Book of

Dreams*).

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:20:32 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Burroughs/Wolves

Here's the Burroughs bit from his book *Exterminator*, a collection of short

pieces. The routine titled "The Lemon Kid" begins:

"As a young child Audrey Carsons wanted to be writers because writers

were rich and famous. They lounged around Singapore and Rangoon smoking opium

in a yellow pongee suits. They sniffed cocaine in Mayfair and they penetrated

forbidden swamps with a faithful native boy and lived in the native quarter

of Tangier smoking hashish and languidly caressing a pet gazelle.

"His first literary exercise was called *The Autobiography of a Wolf*.

People laughed and said: 'You mean the biography of a wolf.' No he meant

*auto* biography of a wolf . . . "

(p.9)

I don't have any of the Burroughs bios on hand, but as I recall *El Hombre

Invisible* refers to this bit as being true of Burroughs.

Howl on,

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:21:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:17:56 -0800 from

<97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:17:56 -0800 Janet Hoelle said:

>DEAR TREVOR,

>

>IF you are interested in discovering what the Beat ideals were, you

>should read GOOD BLONDE AND OTHERS by Jack Kerouac. I think the essays in

>this compilation of works, reveal

>what the essence of the Beat movement was. Also, if you want something on

>Kerouac, the Ann Charters biography entitled Kerouac is the best I've

>found yet.

>

>NICOLE HOELLE

For a more recent overview, check out Lisa Phillips essay "Beat Culture: Americ

a Revisioned" in Beat Culture & the New America, Flammarion, 1995.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:59:17 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph McNicholas <mcnichol@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sarah Schulman

Comments: To: Janet Hoelle <97jhoell@ultrix.uor.edu>

Nicole, Thanks for responding. I'll try to answer a bit. Being a fiction

writer herself, I think Schulman finds a lot that is good in Kerouac. In

fact, she has a character named Sal Paradise, her protagonist speaks of

other characters as being Carlo Marx figures, she writes some Kerouacian

passages, etc. She also creates amalgams of other styles both from literary

history and from the society around her, as you said Kerouac had. I felt

you had an interestnig definition of genius as both "originator" and as

someone who borrows from others (Wolfe, Stein, Rimbaud). That is a key

tension in creative processes, I think. Her work includes Fitzgeraldian

passages (sort of), the rhythms of street life in the East Village,

performance art, etc, and then it seems to originate a new way for thinking

about lesbian lives.

I think what she sees is that the world is swarming with people who do great

things who never become famous, or even ackowledged. The East Village she

writes about is certainly that way now and NYC was when Kerouac was then

(not to mention the rest of the world). The problem is no one notices. One

of Schulman's characters, goes to find out who a writer named Peretz is. .

.they have named a street after him at Houston and First, but today, barely

anyone knows who he is. . . .it turns out he is an excellent Yiddish writer

whose audience, subject matter and language was basically killed off in the

war. It seems to me that she saw that the Beats prevented their subculture

from being killed off by making it more visible (a version of Out Loud and

Proud?).

She sees their continued fame are relying on perpetuating their

name-brand-recognition through things like cross-quoting each other (Howl's

dedication for example, or the constant using of each other as characters in

their books, thus creating a mythology about them. . . . Carlo Marx, Old

Bull Lee, etc.), like managing to get themselves and their friends

interviewed on Steve Allen, and being written about in Time and Life. They

were able to even get Dobie Gillis, so that (a totally commodified) image of

the Beats could get into every TV home, so that some of those people would

buy their books, so that another one of their friends, Ferlinghetti, could

float a press--City Lights-- so that they could publish more of their books,

so that they would have more book reviews in which they quote their friends,

and refer to them. . . .etc. [In fact, I've even heard it said that they

helped their rivals as well, that Ginsberg kept referring to Ashberry and

the New York School, which gave them popularity, too]. I think Schulman saw

that whole dynamic as an important part of creating a movement, of becoming

acclaimed. And that lesbians (as totally kooky as this is to everyday

logic, could benefit from a similar popularity -media blitz.

_______________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________

Joseph McNicholas

mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:39:31 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: neal cassady

hello.

can someone help me out here. i know very little of neal's death

other than the fact he died in 1968, just short of his 44th birthday

(had he lived he'd have been 72 today?), found near rail tracks (how

apt!) a victim of booze & drugs.

'visions of kerouac - the life of jack kerouac by charles jarvis' then

states that he reckons neal fulfilled his death wish! explaining that

anyone who lives 'on the edge' for so long will eventually fall over

it.

from what i've read of neal, nowhere does it mention 'a death wish' as

a way of life, even in the (abstract) context of mr. jarvis' explanation of

'living on the edge, eventually falling over it'. i realise this is only one

person's point of view but it made me think (a little).

i'd like to know more please...

also, anyone know anything more about the movie version of 'on the

road'. i know it will be crap compared to the book, never capturing

the essence & meaning of the characters and generation etc. etc. etc.

but. it's what our generation (people who are alive now!) will be leaving

behind for the televisionfed future generations.

i'd like to know a little more please...

joe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

e-mail: joe.carney@unn.ac.uk or 100106.1102@compuserve.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

'there is no new language. just the same words with a different intent...'

- jack kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:19:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: neal cassady (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:39:31 EST

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: neal cassady

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

also, anyone know anything more about the movie version of 'on the

road'. i know it will be crap compared to the book, never capturing

the essence & meaning of the characters and generation etc. etc. etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please!! Not again . . . .

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:25:53 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: neal cassady

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:39:31 EST from

<100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

On Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:39:31 EST Joe said:

>hello.

>

>can someone help me out here. i know very little of neal's death

>other than the fact he died in 1968, just short of his 44th birthday

>(had he lived he'd have been 72 today?), found near rail tracks (how

>apt!) a victim of booze & drugs.

>

>'visions of kerouac - the life of jack kerouac by charles jarvis' then

>states that he reckons neal fulfilled his death wish! explaining that

>anyone who lives 'on the edge' for so long will eventually fall over

>it.

>

>from what i've read of neal, nowhere does it mention 'a death wish' as

>a way of life, even in the (abstract) context of mr. jarvis' explanation of

>'living on the edge, eventually falling over it'. i realise this is only one

>person's point of view but it made me think (a little).

>

>i'd like to know more please...

>

>also, anyone know anything more about the movie version of 'on the

>road'. i know it will be crap compared to the book, never capturing

>the essence & meaning of the characters and generation etc. etc. etc.

>

>but. it's what our generation (people who are alive now!) will be leaving

>behind for the televisionfed future generations.

>

>i'd like to know a little more please...

>

>joe

>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>e-mail: joe.carney@unn.ac.uk or 100106.1102@compuserve.com

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>'there is no new language. just the same words with a different intent...'

> - jack kerouac.

Check out the Cassady issue of Spit In The Ocean.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:53:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: neal cassady

In-Reply-To: <960208123931_100106.1102_EHQ115-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Joe" at

Feb 8, 96 07:39:31 am

have you read carolyn's book, "off the road?"

she writes a wonderful tale....with compassion...and understanding....

> hello.

>

> can someone help me out here. i know very little of neal's death

> other than the fact he died in 1968, just short of his 44th birthday

> (had he lived he'd have been 72 today?), found near rail tracks (how

> apt!) a victim of booze & drugs.

anyone check out kesey's essay, "the day superman died"

>

> 'visions of kerouac - the life of jack kerouac by charles jarvis' then

> states that he reckons neal fulfilled his death wish! explaining that

> anyone who lives 'on the edge' for so long will eventually fall over

> it.

>

> from what i've read of neal, nowhere does it mention 'a death wish' as

> a way of life, even in the (abstract) context of mr. jarvis' explanation of

> 'living on the edge, eventually falling over it'. i realise this is only one

> person's point of view but it made me think (a little).

>

> i'd like to know more please...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:14:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Wolves

Comments: To: Dan_Barth@redwoodfn.org

heLLo folks.

Dan Barth wrote thatt |||"His first literary exercise was called *The

Autobiography of a Wolf*.

People laughed and said: 'You mean the biography of a wolf.' No he meant

*auto* biography of a wolf . . . "

(p.9)

I don't have any of the Burroughs bios on hand, but as I recall *El Hombre

Invisible* refers to this bit as being true of Burroughs.|||

Yep, that's close enough. I think that it established WSB's literary

vantagepoint as that of the outsider, eh ?

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:25:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: SIP

Last nite I was re-reading Kerouac`s Satori In Paris. While not on the level

of OTR and TDB, it is a truly fascinating short novel: a chronicle of K`s

search for his roots in France, and the true endpiece of the Duluoz Legend.

It is replete with humour, sometimes of a rather wacky kind, eg., when the

airport chimes calling K to his flight to Brest (which he ends up missing

because of a visit to the john) brings to his mind the tune Mathilda ("ma -

til - da"). There is much rueful humour or musing, some of it directed at

himself. The satori in question, as pointed out by Gerry Nicosia, was

finding a human connection with his Paris cab driver, a guy from the

Auvergne (not Brittany - which on the whole seemed to repel Jack), who was

working on a Sunday to help support his family ( talk about the Beat

attitude to family responsibility), and who stopped at a cafe with Jack to

have a beer with him because he knew Jack needed a drink. Sometimes I think

that rather than see a film made of OTR, with its cosmic issues and

practical complications of ever getting done, some sensitive filmmaker (a

French- Canadian would be perfect for SIP) should take on a lesser Kerouac

book, such as SIP. Another perfect choice - Vanity of Dulouz, which would

make a fine, elegiac, melancholic film if someone did it right. Not that VOD

is one of his lesser books, come to think of it, but that`s another story...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:02:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: SIP

I wonder if Kerouac was aware of the irony associated with this

acronym for Satori in Paris?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 14:36:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: SIP

Good catch, Mark, I hadn`t thought that the acronym SIP might have been

intended as an ironical reference by Jack. I think he must have intended the

irony. The partial evidence of that may be that in VOD he goes to the

trouble of pointing out that SIP was written with a bottle at his side and

was the first of his books to be so written. I believe this to be true,

despite the gibes over the years that he was drunk or stoned when he wrote

his classic works. For example, in a letter in Charters` recent edition of

his early letters, Jack states that he wrote OTR "on coffee". The beauty of

much of its prose leads me not to doubt him for an instant. I believe he may

have used bennies to write, but I believe this was principally to stay up

for nights on end. So, the irony you`ve detected may have two edges to it:

that he was drunk for much of the trip in France, but also when he wrote

SIP. But it is still a good book, which shows how much talent he had to

start with...and to waste to some degree, unfortunately...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:46:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: PostModBuddhaMan

I have somehow managed to lose a couple postings that I wanted to

respond to in more detail, but I'll try to wing it as best I can.

Mainly it has to do with the Buddhism vs. Catholicism thing.

Before I say any more I should confess my ignorance of most

formal religious structures, i.e. ceremonies be they Catholic or

Buddhist -- I was raised a Unitarian. My comments about Buddhism

are pretty much exclusively based on my own background in Taoism

and more of a Allan Watts/Zen approach, so I shouldn't profess to

know anything about the more formal branches of Buddhism. The

statement that "God is an interesting con man," was meant along

the lines of a Zen Koan, rather than to be interpreted as a

literal statement about God, etc. -- so let me leave that at

that. What I think is more important to the Beats is the general

introduction of the more non-linear, Eastern thinking patterns

into their art. This, if anything is what qualifies them for

being Postmoderns if we are to believe they are rather more than

just neo-Romantics -- or if we care. Maybe I have said this on

the list before, but Harold Bloom, who of course trashes the

Beats, did include Snyder on his Western Canon list -- neither

Kerouac nor Ginsberg made it -- don't even ask about Burroughs.

Snyder is the most "serious" Buddhist of the lot. I wonder if

Bloom is acknowledging the important influence of Eastern thought

on the evolution of poetry in "the (his) canon?" Maybe he just

included Snyder to piss-off Ginsberg -- like leaving a 2 cent tip

so they know you didn't forget.

Perry L.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:55:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Neal Cassidy's Death

Carolyn Cassidy explains his death at the end of her book Off The Road. She

says he was going down to a friend's house in mexico and he wondered off

probably stoned or high (the reason for going I believe) along the railroad

tracks in Veracruz I think. Either way I bet he planned it because the

railroad was his life. A good way to die for Neal if you ask me.

nyh

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 19:56:17 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Ginsberg question

Last night I had a dream I was walking home at dawn and a big white crane flew

out of a tree and landed near me. I woke up, made a cup of coffee, sat back

in bed and picked up Ginsberg's *The Fall of America* from bedside bookshelf.

(Had seen him last night on PBS history of rock talking about Eleanor Rigby.)

My bookmark was at pp.34, 35 and the first thing I noticed was at the top of

page 34: "Crane all's well, the wanderer returns/from the west with his

Powers." So I am wondering if any of you know what Allen's "Crane" reference

is here. I can't figure it out from the context.

Thanx,

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:24:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg question

Comments: To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Perhaps its a reference to Hart Crane.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:00:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Neal Cassidy's Death

In-Reply-To: <01I11RUT73AY0024BJ@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> from "Nicholas Herren" at Feb

10, 96 12:55:42 pm

>

> Carolyn Cassidy explains his death at the end of her book Off The Road. She

> says he was going down to a friend's house in mexico and he wondered off

> probably stoned or high (the reason for going I believe) along the railroad

> tracks in Veracruz I think. Either way I bet he planned it because the

> railroad was his life. A good way to die for Neal if you ask me.

he was counting railroad ties.....

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:13:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Neal Cassidy's Death

The story as I remember it, says he made a bet about how many railroad

ties between the town in Mexico and San Jose (or some equally outrageous

distance) and yes, was counting the ties. The story also goes that his

last words were the number of ties he had counted to where he had

collapsed with exposure.

Maybe someone can help me out with this.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:57:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Neal Cassidy's Death

>The story as I remember it, says he made a bet about how many railroad

>ties between the town in Mexico and San Jose (or some equally outrageous

>distance) and yes, was counting the ties. The story also goes that his

>last words were the number of ties he had counted to where he had

>collapsed with exposure.

>

>Maybe someone can help me out with this.

This is the stuff legends are made of, Mark! Kesey wrote, in the Superman

essay I think, about the last words being the number of ties he'd counted.

Sounds like a good ol' Kesey myth to me... wonderful wonderful.

So -- the question is, then, what was the number?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:12:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: Neal Cassidy's Death

In-Reply-To: <v01510102ad4506038c15@[198.110.207.212]>

In "The Day After Superman Died", Kesey says that Cassidy's last words

were sixty-four thousand, nine hundred and twenty eight. While its a

great story about Neal's manic personality, I somehow doubt its

factuality. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't remember

Carolyn Cassidy including the fact in "Off the Road"

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:30:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Cassady mathematics

I probably should let this go, but...how could Kesey's number be

anything other than fiction, unless he was there. Better to think Neal

is still counting.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:24:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

Kerouac, No; Ginsberg, Yes, and struggling.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:37:46 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Toby Litt <litt@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career

Hi, I've just joined the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before.

I hope not. Apologies if it has.

I'm interested in Kerouac's football career. Does anyone have any stats? or

any of the newspaper reports that were written about him?

I'm also very interested in the injury that ended his sporting career and

began his literary one - sitting there in bed reading everyone and

everything. Is there a good account of this anywhere?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Toby

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:00:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: More or less (Moraless?) on Cassady.

I've become one of the lurkers here recently, but these

conversations on Cassady has provoked me into some

interesting thoughts that I'm having difficulty working with

since comparitively I'm so badly read on the Beats.. at

least as far as Cassady goes. Anyhow, I'm working on

some thoughts for "performance art" in respect to this

idea of walking along a railroad track and counting the

ties before dying. I'm not exactly sure where to focus on

this, but could someone either direct me to a good book

to read or possibly give some information on Cassady's

personal life that would inspire someone to walk along

the railroad tracks until dying. I'd appreciate most some

good quotes that could be used in the peice, and if

anyone has any vague ideas on how this could be

interpreted to the stage, feel free to interject.

..Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:18:28 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: More or less (Moraless?) on Cassady.

>I'm working on

>some thoughts for "performance art" in respect to this

>idea of walking along a railroad track and counting the

>ties before dying. I'm not exactly sure where to focus on

>this, but could someone either direct me to a good book

>to read or possibly give some information on Cassady's

>personal life that would inspire someone to walk along

>the railroad tracks until dying.

Must read "On The Road" by Kerouac before even attempting to work on this

idea as performance art. Also, I don't think Neal intended to walk along

tracks till he died. Read as much as you can about Neal and Jack and Allen

before attempting to perform a piece about them. No simple answers; no

answers at all.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:52:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

In a message dated 96-02-12 17:26:03 EST, you write:

>>I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

>

>Kerouac, No; Ginsberg, Yes, and struggling.

>

>

>

I was wondering if Burroughs is still alive? A friend of mine told me he

died but I don't think that this is true. Please say it is so, that he

lives.

Again I am new here so untill I get situated, please bear with me.

-Carl-

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:55:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Hello

I just wanted to introduce myself, I am new to this list. I joined it

because I read On the Road and fell in love with the beats. So, here I am.

not much else to say at this point.

-Carl-

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:09:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Toby Litt <litt@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career

I'm interested in Kerouac's football career. Does anyone have any stats? or

any of the newspaper reports that were written about him?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kerouac was featured in an article in Sports Illustrated but as I am not

near my "stuff" right now I can't give you the bibliographic info. Check

any decent bibliography linke the MLA or even the Reader's Guide for that

period and you can get the citation for the piece.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:17:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

I was wondering if Burroughs is still alive? A friend of mine told me he

died but I don't think that this is true. Please say it is so, that he

lives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't you catch his wonderful work last year in the Nike ads?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:03:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Web Fiction/Poetry Reading

In-Reply-To: <960212225550_142687148@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Carl Luoma" at

Feb 12, 96 10:55:52 pm

Hi everyone -- to all the New Yorkers on this list, would you like

to come to a fiction/poetry event featuring writers who've written for

the web? It's at Biblio's, 317 Church St. in Tribeca (just south of

Canal St.) and it's Valentine's Day (Feb 14) at 8 pm. Here's the

list of readers and websites they've written for:

Meg W. Stein: The Omega Female, Enterzone, Literary Kicks

Edward Fristrom: Jamie's Amateur Fiction Hour

Dave Kushner: SonicNet, Alt-X

Clay Shirky: Urban Desires

Peter Crumlish: Enterzone

Maureen McClarnon: Alt-X/io

Phil Zampino: "The Squid"

Ben Cohen: Alt-X/io

Galinsky: Pseudo Online Radio

David Alexander: Enterzone

Nicole Blackman: SonicNet

Jamie Fristrom: Jamie's Amateur Fiction Hour, Enterzone

Levi Asher: Literary Kicks, Enterzone, Levity

Should be at least a moderate amount of Beat spirit there. I'm hoping

it'll be a real seminal event, unless of course it sucks, in which

case it'll suck.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"people tell me it's a sin

to know and feel too much within"

-- bob dylan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:33:28 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: William S Burroughs lives

In-Reply-To: <960212225201_421122079@emout08.mail.aol.com>

> I was wondering if Burroughs is still alive? A friend of mine told me he

> died but I don't think that this is true. Please say it is so, that he

> lives.

>

> Again I am new here so untill I get situated, please bear with me.

>

> -Carl-

Carl

WSB is indeed still alive. What I would like to know is what he's

currently up to, what projects he's working on at present if any. Does

anyone have any thoughts on this?

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:06:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

I too had a dream about Ginsberg recently. I walked across a prairie in

a blizzard to get to this winter resort (on the prairie?!). In the

middle of the parking lot was a row of bookshelves. I kept looking

through the piles of books on the beat generation there but couldn't find

a thing on Ginsberg. The surly librarian (who rather reminded me of a

linebacker) kept threatening to pound me into the ground based on my

limited knowledge of Ginsberg. Help me...what has he done since the sixties?

Also...I was wondering something about Kerouac. Did he ever write his

impressions on the movement towards modern jazz (a la late Coltrane,

Mingus, etc.). He seemed to be struck by the new sounds of bop in the

early fifties. What did he think about the next big trend in jazz?

Based on the spirituality and depth that the free jazz players were

searching for I can't help but think that Kerouac wouldn't have dug in

some way...

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:44:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960213105943.81677A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca> from

"Noah Bergman" at Feb 13, 96 10:06:14 am

Noah Bergman writes:

> I too had a dream about Ginsberg recently. I walked across a prairie in

> a blizzard to get to this winter resort (on the prairie?!). In the

> middle of the parking lot was a row of bookshelves. I kept looking

> through the piles of books on the beat generation there but couldn't find

> a thing on Ginsberg. The surly librarian (who rather reminded me of a

> linebacker) kept threatening to pound me into the ground based on my

> limited knowledge of Ginsberg. Help me...what has he done since the

> sixties?

Noah--

The *Collected Poems* will take you up to 1980. I enjoyed *Cosmopolitan

Greetings* (1992), his most recent collection. As one would expect from

any volume of poetry, *C. Greetings* has some uneven spots, but as a

whole it seems a nice continuation of Ginsberg's adaptation of language

to breath, and of his fusion of Eastern and Western consciousness. Last

year he did a reading tour for his latest publication of journals,

*Journals, Mid-Fifties: 1954-1958*. I saw him read from the book here

in Boston, and by my observation he was gracious and energetic. Hope

this helps.

Best,

Tony

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:44:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960213105943.81677A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

>

> Also...I was wondering something about Kerouac. Did he ever write his

> impressions on the movement towards modern jazz (a la late Coltrane,

> Mingus, etc.). He seemed to be struck by the new sounds of bop in the

> early fifties. What did he think about the next big trend in jazz?

> Based on the spirituality and depth that the free jazz players were

> searching for I can't help but think that Kerouac wouldn't have dug in

> some way...

>

Kerouac was in his dotage by 1963 when free jazz burst on the scene. He

was an alcoholic, reactionary and burnt-out has-been when Archie Shepp,

John Coltrane, etc. were raising hell. Kerouac hated the 1960's.

Ginsberg is another story altogether. He loved and has loved everything

that is new and experimental.

American devours its creators and artists by embracing them within the

pages of magazines like Time and TV shows like Dobie Gillis. Ginsberg

never took himself so seriously as to buy into all this bullshit. I don't

think Burroughs loses sleep either for having done Nike ads. Meanwhile,

all Kerouac thought about was writing a screenplay based on

"On the Road" and cursed Hollywood and himself for not having achieved this.

The Kerouac we all love was the Kerouac of the late 1940s. It is simply

amazing how much of a creep and a loser he became as soon as he got some

fame. He was an obnoxious drunk shortly after his writing career turned

successful. Check out Gerard Nicosia's "Memory Babe" for the

best available portrait of Kerouac in both his ascendancy and decline.

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:56:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Neal Cassidy's Death

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960212170940.46849B-100000@juliet.stfx.ca> from

"Noah Bergman" at Feb 12, 96 05:12:12 pm

>

> In "The Day After Superman Died", Kesey says that Cassidy's last words

> were sixty-four thousand, nine hundred and twenty eight. While its a

> great story about Neal's manic personality, I somehow doubt its

> factuality. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't remember

> Carolyn Cassidy including the fact in "Off the Road"

she didn't

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:24:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: William S Burroughs lives

WSB is indeed still alive. What I would like to know is what he's

currently up to, what projects he's working on at present if any. Does

anyone have any thoughts on this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Miles' recent bio of Burroughs had some interesting points about

his recent life (I think it came out in '92ish - it's been awhile since I

read it). He was and is selling paintings which he makes by shooting

spray paint cans with guns. Very appropriate I think.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:27:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

It is simply

amazing how much of a creep and a loser he became as soon as he got some

fame. He was an obnoxious drunk shortly after his writing career turned

successful.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand, he was pretty much like that his whole life. He always

ragged on Allen for being a Jew and his strict right-wing attitudes were

there (oddly enough) pretty much all his life. Many folks disliked

when he showed up for his long weekends in NY away from his Mother

because he was a boor in many ways.

What does anyone else think?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:02:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: JK Literary Prize

Guidelines for the 8th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize are attached.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!, Inc, the Estate of of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Middlesex

Community College and the University of Massachusetts in Lowell. Emerging

and established writers are encouraged to submit their work. The prize

consists of a $500 honorarium and an invitation to read the prize winning

manuscript at the 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival, 3-6

October 1996 in Lowell, MA. Guidelines can also be obtained by sending a

request with a SASE to The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, PO Box 8788,

Lowell, MA 01853-8788.

Please pass this announcement and guidelines along!

Thanks.

Mark Hemenway

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc8th ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Experienced and emerging writers are invited to submit written works in

competition for the 8th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. This Prize will

consist of a $500 honorarium and an invitation to present the prize winning

manuscript at a public reading during the 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

Festival in Lowell, MA from 3 through 6 October 1996.

SUBMISSIONS MUST MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:

1. All works must be in English and not previously published.

2. Submissions will be accepted between 1 April 1996 and 1 August 1996. Entries

postmarked before 1 April 1996 and after 1 August 1996 will not be accepted.

The deadline for all entries is 1 August 1996.

3. The author's name must not appear anywhere on the manuscript.

4. Submissions must be accompanied by a 3x5 index card containing the author's

name, address, telephone number and manuscript title.

5. We are unable to return any manuscripts. Authors will retain all rights and

privileges to their work including full copyright protection.

6. An entry fee of $5.00 must accompany each submission. Please make checks

payable to: LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC!

8. Submissions must meet the following format requirements:

FICTION:

a. Submit one, typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a novel; or a

maximum of three (3) short stories with a combined length of thirty pages or

less.

POETRY:

a. Submit one typed copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed eight (8) poems with a combined length of 15 pages

or less. No entry may exceed fifteen (15) pages.

NON-FICTION:

a. Submit one typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a volume, or a

maximum of three (3) essays with a combined length of thirty (30) pages or

less.

9. Submit all manuscripts to:

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize

P.O. Box 8788

Lowell, MA 01853-8788

10. Authors will receive notification of the prize winner by September 15, 1996.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

(a non-profit organization), The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Middlesex

Community College, and the University of Massachusetts at Lowell.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:30:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Kerouac...an obnoxious fellow?

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.stfx.ca>

In-Reply-To: <960213.113014.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

I seem to remember reading something Ann Charters wrote about visiting

Kerouacvery late in his life and how he kept insuating that he wanted to

have sex with her before she left. (please forgive me if this is wrong.

I read a lot of stuff and I could have made a mistake). Descriptions of

telephone conversations he had with Carolyn Cassidy later on also point

to his being a general asshole. But man, his writing more than

compensates for a poor personality!

Also...does anyone know where I can find a written version of Kerouac's

"origins of bop" essay. I've heard his reading of it and would really

love to have a transcription.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:34:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd)

I seem to remember reading something Ann Charters wrote about visiting

Kerouac very late in his life and how he kept insuating that he wanted to

have sex with her before she left. (please forgive me if this is wrong.

I read a lot of stuff and I could have made a mistake). Descriptions of

telephone conversations he had with Carolyn Cassidy later on also point

to his being a general asshole. But man, his writing more than

compensates for a poor personality!

Also...does anyone know where I can find a written version of Kerouac's

"origins of bop" essay. I've heard his reading of it and would really

love to have a transcription.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:59:16 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career

Check out *Vanity of Duluoz* for Kerouac's account of this period of his life.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:09:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific (fwd)

My read on the declining and rednecked years of Jack is that he was very

bitter regarding the world and system that he figured had dismissed him.

That was an easier pill for him to swallow than accepting the fact that the

team made up of himself, Stella, and Gabrielle (his wife and his mother)

dismissed the rest of the world. Old, tired man who cashed-in in order to

get someone else to take out the garbage.

However, I don't feel he was like that "all his life". Her was insecure,

shy, and distrustful... but the vengeful nature of his attacks against

Ginsberg were pretty much fueled by his later-years Johnnie Walker (and,

remember, that 2/3 of the above team did not like Ginsberg... Jack bowed to

their wishes).

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 19:10:20 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Web Fiction/Poetry Reading

Levi,

Best of luck. Hope it doesn't suck.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 19:07:09 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Ginsberg question

Thanks for responses to my Ginsberg/Crane query. I think Hart Crane and I

Ching were probably both intended, I was just a little too dense to see it on

my own. That's why I value this list.

Thank you,

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:22:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Kerouac the Athlete

The theme for the 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival is "Jack

Kerouac: Athlete and Scholar" We hope to provide some insight on this very

important part of his life. He was also a terrific baseball player and

runner on the track team. The Town and City and Maggie Cassidy both cover

this aspect as well.

Mark Hemenway

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

3-6 October 1996

Everyone comes home in October- OTR

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:03:52 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Leo Jilk <leo.august.jilk@SPARKY.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

>Subject: William S Burroughs lives

>

>WSB is indeed still alive. What I would like to know is what he's

>currently up to, what projects he's working on at present if any. Does

>anyone have any thoughts on this?

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Barry Miles' recent bio of Burroughs had some interesting points about

>his recent life (I think it came out in '92ish - it's been awhile since I

>read it). He was and is selling paintings which he makes by shooting

>spray paint cans with guns. Very appropriate I think.

I heard that Kurt Cobain actually cut an album with Burroughs before he

died(Cobain that is). Can anyone verify this? If so, I'd like more info.

--Leo Jilk

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:35:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad4657dffae3@[204.220.40.100]>

In response to your question about the Kurt Cobain/William Burroughs

disk, I believe it's called "They called him the priest". It's probably

available at any large CD chain story or any independant record store.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:38:50 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad4657dffae3@[204.220.40.100]>

> I heard that Kurt Cobain actually cut an album with Burroughs before he

>

> died(Cobain that is). Can anyone verify this? If so, I'd like more info.

>

> --Leo Jilk

Yes, that's true. It was cut in '92 and released in '93 I think.

Called: The "Priest" They Called Him and published byTim Kerr records,

Portland.

Running time: 11 minutes (I think)

Only buy this if you are a diehard Cobain or WSB fan. It is a good

story by Burroughs, but Cobain's feedback version of Silent Night

simply doesn't complement the reading. That's not to say it isn't

good, but you can tell they didn't collaborate. The album more than

likely resulted from WSB's new commercial fame as well as Cobain's

Nirvana. This is definately a commerical venture.

My grade: B

Time Warner just released a audio book for Naked Lunch.

I have it on order so no opinion yet.

If you really want a good WSB disc, buy Vaudeville Voices

released by Grey Matter records in '93. I bought this in

London and have not seen it in the states. Contains

material from Call Me Burroughs ('65) and Ali's Smile ('70).

Well worth import prices.

Although WSB doesn't call himself a beat (AND HE ISN'T)

I'd be happy to provide any WSB related commentary here.

I've done quite extensive research on the man.

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:43:03 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: daw071@LULU.ACNS.NWU.EDU

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <v01530500ad4657dffae3@[204.220.40.100]> from "Leo Jilk" at Feb

13, 96 03:03:52 pm

> I heard that Kurt Cobain actually cut an album with Burroughs before he

> died(Cobain that is). Can anyone verify this? If so, I'd like more info.

>

> --Leo Jilk

>

Yeah, that's right. "The Priest, They Called Him" or something like that is

what it's called. I guess that it's just Cobain producing guitar noises while

Burroughs reads. Burroughs has also done stuff with the Disposable Heroes of

Hiphoprisy and appeared in the Ministry video "Just One Fix."

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:17:29 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: William S Burroughs recordings

Ministry released a single called "just one fix". "Just one fix" had some

WSB samples on it. The third track on the single was WSB spoken word, with

Ministry backing and is my personal best WSB release.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:33:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:44:11 -0500 from

<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:44:11 -0500 Tony Trigilio said:

>Noah Bergman writes:

>> I too had a dream about Ginsberg recently. I walked across a prairie in

>> a blizzard to get to this winter resort (on the prairie?!). In the

>> middle of the parking lot was a row of bookshelves. I kept looking

>> through the piles of books on the beat generation there but couldn't find

>> a thing on Ginsberg. The surly librarian (who rather reminded me of a

>> linebacker) kept threatening to pound me into the ground based on my

>> limited knowledge of Ginsberg. Help me...what has he done since the

>> sixties?

>

>Noah--

>

>The *Collected Poems* will take you up to 1980. I enjoyed *Cosmopolitan

>Greetings* (1992), his most recent collection. As one would expect from

>any volume of poetry, *C. Greetings* has some uneven spots, but as a

>whole it seems a nice continuation of Ginsberg's adaptation of language

>to breath, and of his fusion of Eastern and Western consciousness. Last

>year he did a reading tour for his latest publication of journals,

>*Journals, Mid-Fifties: 1954-1958*. I saw him read from the book here

>in Boston, and by my observation he was gracious and energetic. Hope

>this helps.

>

>Best,

>Tony

You should also read White Shroud, a kind of companion poem to Kaddish.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:38:10 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Kerouac after 1957

Kerouac wasn't a saint but I don't think it's fair to call him a "creep

and a loser." He liked to drink, he couldn't handle fame, and sometimes

he may have letdown his friends, but he continued to write and to

publish a number of good books. He was human like the rest of us.

Let's not be too hard on him.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:33:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

In-Reply-To: <311FBDF4@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

> Kerouac, No; Ginsberg, Yes, and struggling.

how is Ginsberg struggling?

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:43:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

Ginsberg suffers, I believe, from diabetes. I have friends who see him

occasionaly and they tell me he looks very frail. His schedule at Naropa and

Brooklyn College (I think he teaches there) has been cut back a great deal.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:52:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: howl for a nameless generation

I think I've come up with a new version of Howl suitable for a generation

so weak it's name is the antithesis of a unified lable.

I saw the best minds of my generati....no i didn't

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:44:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello

In-Reply-To: <960212225550_142687148@mail06.mail.aol.com>

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Carl Luoma wrote:

> I just wanted to introduce myself, I am new to this list. I joined it

> because I read On the Road and fell in love with the beats. So, here I am.

> not much else to say at this point.

I guess i'll do the same. I'm new to the list. I started out with

Ginsberg journals, which i found fascinating...then moved onto on the

road....then to jack's letters...absolutely wonderful. jack is my hero.

I was gonna do an independent study on him this semester, but couldn'

find a prof to work with... :)

thass all for now..

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:19:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: howl for a nameless generation

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960213215105.131183A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

Hello fellow beat lovers. I must admit that i am new to the beat scene,

but over the last half of a year ive spent lots of time researching them,

mostly jack and allen, i visit the music library frequently to listen to

the Kerouac box set, which is great! It's kerouac reading excerpts from

his books, poems, and essays. Sometimes he has jazz musicians playing in

the background. If you think Kerouac is great read wait till you hear him.

I've read 'On the Road' (my fav. book EVER; Hemingway, Shakespeare, they

all pale in comparison) "Desolation Angels' (beautifully written but much

more depressing than OTR), and countless number of his essays.

Ginsberg- Howl, America, and dozens of other of his poems). Any advice

on what to read next? I'm thinking 'Naked Lunch,' or 'Dharma Bums.'

This is all for now.

*****************************************************************************

Matthew Stephen Sackmann-still bathin' in the sun down here in the Big Easy

"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live,

mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,

the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn

like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the

stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody

goes 'Awww!'"

-from "On the Road" by Mr. Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 02:25:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's football career

Especially for information on how his sports "career" ended and he made the

jump into the literary world, a good reference is the book of his "Letters."

ed. by none other than Ann Charters, of course. Some of his early

correpondance deals with this subject specifically.

BTW - it's nice to see you back again, Critter!

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:06:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Counting with Cassady

The Arthur & Kit Knight book, "Beat Angels" has an accounting of Neal

Cassady's death from a friend of his, who was one of the last people

to see him alive. Good read with presumed photo of tracks where Neal

fell.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:20:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: howl for a nameless generation (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I think I've come up with a new version of Howl suitable for a generation

so weak it's name is the antithesis of a unified lable.

I saw the best minds of my generati....no i didn't

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are referring to Generation X in this statement, I feel it my duty

to inform you that the list decided that, obvious connections aside, this

topic is inappropriate to this list.

That's all I can say about it.

Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:26:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac after 1957 (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

He liked to drink, he couldn't handle fame, and sometimes

he may have letdown his friends, but he continued to write and to

publish a number of good books. He was human like the rest of us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad you said this. As I'm sure you all are well aware, I have a

problem with the Beats being veiwed as merely folks who led "cool" lives.

No matter how much of a bigot, anti-semite or asshole Jack was, he wrote

wonderful books and that's what he wanted to be remembered as. Much like

Salinger's decision to exclude himself as a personal figure, Jack wanted

to be a writer remembered for his work, not his lifestyle.

What do you think?

Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:58:26 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac after 1957

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96021318413293@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Bill Gargan wrote:

> Kerouac wasn't a saint but I don't think it's fair to call him a "creep

> and a loser." He liked to drink, he couldn't handle fame, and sometimes

> he may have letdown his friends, but he continued to write and to

> publish a number of good books. He was human like the rest of us.

> Let's not be too hard on him.

>

You are quite right and I thank and applaud you for saying so. I was

trying mightily to get out of the tangle of my anger and sadness caused by

some of those attack posts so that I could respond appropriately. You've

saved me the effort. Thanks. Hurrah for Jack.

Best,

SS

Portland State University

Portland, OR

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:40:02 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: wsb and cobain

burroughs did cut a single with cobain titled "they call him priest" but

im not sure about an album. If they did cut an album i'm certain Geffen

would have cashed in on it at this stage.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:56:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re: howl for a nameless generation (fwd)

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I think I've come up with a new version of Howl suitable for a generation

so weak it's name is the antithesis of a unified lable.

I saw the best minds of my generati....no i didn't

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are referring to Generation X in this statement, I feel it my duty

to inform you that the list decided that, obvious connections aside, this

topic is inappropriate to this list.

That's all I can say about it.

Peter

What other topics does the beat list consider inappropritate?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:08:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac after 1957

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PTX.3.91.960213161455.11645A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>

Saying that Kerouac was only human in defense of his less than model

behaviour makes me think of an interesting point. Maybe his being just

slightly "more human" than most of us in his faults allowed him to

capture humanity more brilliantly in his work.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:07:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: WSB Questions

Hello all:

In an effort to enlighten myself, I recently began Ted Morgan's

WSB biography, _Literary Outlaw: The life and times of WSB_.

For those of you not familiar with it, I can advise:

Get a copy!! It is superb reading (it practically reads like

a novel), is thoroughly researched and is one of the best

biographies I have ever read (I've read bunches). I just

can't seem to set it down.

I am about halfway through it and have a handful of questions.

To save some bandwith, let me pose the one I am most interested

in having aswere: between his Harvard schooling, and travels (exiles)

in a myriad of countries, did WSB speak/read/write any language

other than english?? He intended to study medicine in Vienna

(and, according to Morgan, could read "some" German)

and quotes himself using spanish words throughout _Junky_,

but otherwise there are no allusions to his foreign

language abilities.

Bill Jr. makes fun of his old man's French (I think?) in

_Kentucky Ham_ (if I recall correctly), but I wonder how

substantiated this may be.

As usual, I would be thrilled with any answers or pointers.

Trevor Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:19:28 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: the decline of Kerouac

Well I think you guys (the first two who posted) are painting it pretty black.

In fact I love Kerouac all the way through, even to his sad alcoholic end.

And there are those who knew him in Florida and Northport in his later years

who certainly enjoyed his company. And all through his life people liked Jack

and enjoyed being around him. Burroughs always looked forward to seeing him,

Ginsberg and Holmes valued his friendship. Check out *The Kerouac We Knew*

and *Kerouac at the Wild Boar* edited by John Montgomery for a variety of

views. Also Holmes' book *Visitor: JK in Old Saybrook* is good. Lots of

differing views on as complex a character as Kerouac, and no doubt many

negatives as you guys have pointed out, but I wouldn't have minded hanging

out with the man at any point in his life.

Cheers,

DB

P.S. Joyce Johnson's book *Minor Characters* is good on the effect of fame on

Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:14:15 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: Re: WSB Questions (language)

In-Reply-To: <01I17H3FDAIQ8WWQ4D@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Trevor D. Smith wrote:

> in a myriad of countries, did WSB speak/read/write any language

> other than english?? He intended to study medicine in Vienna

> (and, according to Morgan, could read "some" German)

> and quotes himself using spanish words throughout _Junky_,

> but otherwise there are no allusions to his foreign

> language abilities.

In Barry Miles' WSB biography, it is hinted that WSB learned

languages in order to survive. Makes sense. I've never

heard of any extensive non-English studies that he has

done. After all, words are the enemy ;)

Dead City Radio has a track on it called Falling in Love

Again in which WSB sings (kind of) in German. I get the

impression that he's drunk but maybe it's a combonation

of poor singing and German language skills.

I remember reading a bit in the above mentioned

biography (which I think puts Literary Outlaw to shame on

theoretical merit) that WSB learned various dialects of

Arabic for simple tasks (boys) and I also remember a

quotation from WSB saying that all one really needs

to know in a foreign language is how to buy things . . .

but I couldn't tell you where I read that.

Also, with the Spanish aspect of language, I would be

willing to bet that it is WSB's strongest language

other than English due to time spent near and in Mexico and

classes taken (on and off) on regional dialects.

Also, it makes sense to me that Spanish sneaks into

his prose due to the fact that he bases a good deal

of his material on the Maya. Not to mention, lots of

Spanish words mix nicely with English.

Hope that gives a few basic pointers. And BTW,

if you're interested yet after "Outlaw", I recomend

Miles' "El Hombre Invisible: A portrait".

Most of the ideas here are by recall and may not be 100% accurate.

Regards,

Luke

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:44:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

In a message dated 96-02-13 16:20:01 EST, you write:

> heard that Kurt Cobain actually cut an album with Burroughs before he

>died(Cobain that is). Can anyone verify this? If so, I'd like more info.

>

> --Leo Jilk

Yes, I know he and kobain did do something together. but I was told that all

kobain does is play noise guitar over burroughs reading. I am not sure what

the album name is mebbe it was "the priest they call him" I may be wrong

even on that particular title.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:47:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: William S Burroughs lives (fwd)

In a message dated 96-02-13 16:52:50 EST, you write:

>Although WSB doesn't call himself a beat (AND HE ISN'T)

>I'd be happy to provide any WSB related commentary here.

>I've done quite extensive research on the man.

>

>

I would love to learn more about him. I did a report on him is school as

well so I have some knowlege on him. I find him a very interesting man.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:10:19 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Alan Maddrell <apm5@ABER.AC.UK>

Subject: The Priest They Called Him - WSB

The "Priest" They Called Him

from Exterminator

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Fight tuberculosis, folks." Christmas Eve an old junkie selling Christmas

seals on North Clark Street, the "Priest" they called him. "Fight

tuberculosis, folks."

People hurried by grey shadows on a distant wall it was getting late and no

money to score he truned into a side street and the lake wind hit him like

a knife. Cab stopped just under a street light boy got out with a suitcase

thin kid in prep school clothes familiar face the Priest told himself

watching from the doorway reminds me of something a long time ago the boy

there with his overcoat unbuttoned reaching into his pants pocket for cab

fare. The cab drove away and turned the corner. The boy went into the

building hummm yes maybe; the suitcase was there in the doorway the boy

nowhere in sight gone to get the keys most likely have to move fast. He

picked up the suitcase and started for the corner made it glanced down at

the case didn't look like the case the boy had or any boy would have the

Priest couldn't put his finger on what was so old about the case, old and

dirty poor quality leather and heavy better see what's inside he turned

into Lincoln Park found an empty place and opened the case. Two severed

human legs had belonged to a young man with dark skin shiny black leg hairs

glittered in the dim street light. The legs had been forced into the case

and he had to use his knee on the back of the case to shove then out.

"Legs yet" he said and walked quickly away with the case might bring a few

dollars to score.

The buyer sniffed suspiciously. "Kinda funny smell about it . . . is this

Mexican leather?"

The Priest shruged.

"Well some joker didn't cure it." The buyer looked at the case with cold

disfavor. "Not even right sure he killed it whatever it is three is the

best I can do and it hurts but since this is Christmas and you're the

Priest" $ $ $ He slipped three notes under the table into the Priest's

dirty hand.

The Priest faded into the street shadows seedy and furtive three cents

didn't buy a bag nothing less than a nickel say remember that old auntie

croaker told me not to come back unless I paid him the three cents I owe

isn't that a fruit for you to blow his stack about three lousy cents.

The doctor was not pleased to see him. "Now what do you want ? I told you .

. ." The Priest laid three bills on the table. The doctor put the money in

his pocket and started to scream. "I've had trouble ! The people have been

around! I may lose my license !"

The Priest just sat there eyes old and heavy with years of junk on the

doctor's face.

"I can't write you a prescription!" The doctor jerked open a drawer and

slid an ampoule across the table. "That's all I have in the office !" The

doctor stood up. "Take it and get out !" he screamed, hysterical. The

Priest's expression did not change and the doctor added in quieter tones: "

After all I'm a professional man and I shouldn't be bothered by people like

you."

"Is this all you have for me? One lousy quarter g? Couldn't you lend me a

nickle?"

"Get out! Get out! I'll call the police I tell you!"

"All right doctor. I'm going now."

Christ it was cold and far to walk rooming house a shabby street room on

the top floor these stairs/cough/the Priest there pulling himself up along

the banister he went into the bathroom yellow wood panels toilet dripping

and got his works from under the washbasin wrapped in brown paper back to

his room get every drop in the dropper he rolled up his sleeve. The he

heard a groan fom next door room 18 a Mexican kid lived there the Priest

had passed him on the stairs and saw the kid was hooked but he never spoke

becasue he didn't want any juvenile connections bad news in any language

and the Priest had had enough bad news in his life heard that groan again a

groan he could feel no mistaking that groan and what it meant maybe an

accident or something any case I can't enjoy my priestly medications with

that sound coming through the walls you understand the Priest put down his

dropper cold hall and knocked on the door of room 18.

" Quien es ?"

"It's the Priest, kid. I live next door."

He could hear someone hobbling across the floor a bolt slide and the boy

stood there in his underwear shorts eyes black with pain. He started to

fall. The Priest helped him to the bed.

"What's wrong son?"

"It's my legs senor ... cramps ... and now I am without medicine."

The Priest could see the cramps like knots of wood there in the young lean

legs dark shiny black leg hairs.

"Three years ago I have damaged myself in a bicycle race it is then that

the cramps start and ..."

And he has the leg cramps with compound junk interest. The old Priest stood

there feeling the boy groan. He inclined his head as if in prayer and went

back and got his dropper.

"It's just a quarter g kid."

"I do not require much senor ." The boy was sleeping when the Priest left

room 18.He went back to his room and sat down on the bed. Then it hit him

like heavy silent snow, all the grey junk yesterdays. He sat there and

received the immaculate fix and since he was himself a priest there was no

need to call him one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:49:32 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: More WSB ascii

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96021419114568@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

"Hemingway"

A selection from _The_Adding_Machine_Selected_Essays_

by William S Burroughs

(includes comments on JK and cross-applicable theory

on other beats)

**********************************************************

" Hemingway "

From _THE_ADDING_MACHINE_Selcted_Essays

by William S. Burroughs

Liberated from the traditional forest-destroying

"BOOK" on January 10, 1996.

**********************************************************

In writing the old-style novel, there was a more or less clear-cut

technology and aim. It had a beginning, a middle, and an end. It

had plot, it had chapters that maintained suspense, one chapter

ending with a suspense situation which led to another chapter on

a different character, then back to the suspense situation, building

to a climax. The aim was basically to entertain the readers and to

sell books. Critics still criticize authors for not writing novels of

this sort, even when the novelist is not attempting to do so. Now

painting and writing are split into schools and movements. The

technology and aim of one movement may be quite different from

those of another - if you are doing mobiles, the silkscreen tech-

nology of Pop Art is of no use.

Now consider some writers who have said something about the

technology of writing. Other writers may not say anything di-

rectly, but their concept of aim and technology may be implicit in

the work that is done. I have previously mentioned Graham

Greene; he is frankly horrified at the thought of formulating a

technology of writing. "Evelyn Waugh was my very good friend,

but we never discussed writing. " This is the English game, of

course; talk about the weather, talk about anything so long as it

isn't important. Not much help from Mr. Greene - go to Down-

side, become a bad Catholic and talk about the weather. He

definitely does represent the Gatsby point of view.

There are some do's and don'ts. The sound of the first sentence

often determines if anyone will read the book or not. Here's a

really atrocious first sentence: "Herr [that unpronounceable

name], Hereditary Commander and Chief of the Fleet of Droco,

Fisher of the Westem Seas, leader in sacrifice, an oracle of the

stars, spread his wings and brought them together again in an

astonishing thunderclap. " First of all, he has an incomprehen-

sible if not unpronounceable name, he has too many titles, and he

already has wings. It's all right if he has wings, but you've got to

lead up to it.

Now to quote another first sentence, this time one that makes

it: "Jon Ominar," (easy to pronounce) "Emperor of the East,"

(only got one title) "reclined in his garden, watching a man being

prepared for slow impalement. "

Hemingway has quite a lot to say about writing. He started

writing of course as a joumalist, which he considered very valu-

able training. He says use short words and short sentences, al-

though he doesn't always do this by any means. He uses short

words, but in very long sentences sometimes. He said to look at

the person or object in front of you and transcribe what you see.

He also developed a number of exercises, like describing a scene

from a viewpoint, then removing the viewpoint and leaving the

description. It's as if I described everyone in my class from this

viewpoint, then removed myself and just left the description.

Take out the "1. " What his technology boils down to, however,

is how to write Hemingway.

The same thing is true of Kerouac and Wolfe. Kerouac had the

idea that the first draft was always the best. You should just let

the mind flow and type away, and never change it. Well, that's

all right for him, but it's not my way of writing. I told him that.

I revise. It's how to write Kerouac. And Wolfe is much the same.

Hemingway has been admired and praised by critics for things

that he did not do. The Sun Also Rises has been acclaimed as the

definitive statement of the Lost Generation. It wasn't. There's

more of the 1920s in one page of Fitzgerald than in the whole of

Hemingway. That wasn't what Hemingway was doing, and he

can't be criticized for that. He wasn't evoking a period the way

Fitzgerald was.

Hemingway has been described as a master of dialogue. He

isn't. No one talks like people talk in Hemingway's novels except

people in Hemingway's novels. John O'Hara, not nearly as good

a writer, is much more a master of dialogue than Hemingway.

You know when you read John O'Hara that that's something he

actually heard someone say.

Perhaps it's unfair to say that there's nothing in Hemingway

except Hemingway, but that's really the way I feel about it. It's

not exactly a criticism, because that's what Hemingway was

doing. Hemingway had such a distinctive style that he was

trapped in it forever. Nevertheless I think Hemingway came

closer to writing himself in present time, closer to writing his life

and death, than any other writer. Of course Mishima wrote about

hara kiri and then later committed it. A French writer of detective

stories wrote "Then he walked across the room, opened the

window, and jumped out." After typing these lines, he walked

across the room, opened the window, and jumped out. Well,

that's cheating. I mean, Hemingway wrote his death as a char-

acter, not as an actor. The difference being, anybody can write

"And then he shot himself" and then shoot himself, if he is

prepared to do this. I'm talking about someone who writes "And

then he was shot" and is himself shot by someone else. That's

the trick.

All his life Heniingway was plagued by strange incidents. A

skylight fell on him in Paris, he broke his toe kicking a gate in,

he gaffed a shark and while shooting it in the head with his Colt

Woodsman .22, with which he could unerringly shatter wine

bottles at 100 feet, the gaff broke and he shot himself in both

legs. A lady hunter nearly blew his head off with a shotgun.

Several auto accidents; concussion after concussion. The pica-

dors are at work.

Hemingway could smell death. He suddenly left a chateau

which he said had the stink of death about it, and after he left, the

chateau was bombed and several people killed. And he could

smell death on others. I have already related incidents.

Hemingway wrote himself as a character. He wrote his life and

death so closely that he had to be stopped before he found out

what he was doing and wrote about that. There is the moment

when the bull looks speculatively from the cape to the matador.

The bull is leaming. The matador must kill him quick. Two plane

crashes in a row, both near Kilimanjaro. The matador has to

smash his head against the window of a buming plane. Otherwise

he would have found out why two planes crashed near Kiliman-

jaro; he wrote it. He wrote it in The Snows of Kilimanjaro, where

Death is the pilot. "He was pointing now, white white white as

far as the eye can see ahead, the snows of Kilimanjaro." That's

the last line.

He who writes death as the pilot of a small plane in Africa

should beware of small planes in Africa, especially in the vicinity

of Kilimanjaro. But it was written, and he stepped right into his

own writing. The brain damage he sustained butting his way out

of the buming plane led to a hopeless depression and eventually

to his suicide. He put both barrels of a 12-gauge shotgun, no. 6

heavy duck load, against his forehead and tripped both triggers.

Fix yourself on that: "White white white as far as the eye can see

ahead . . . the snows of Kilimanjaro."

And unlike the French detective writer, Hemingway wasn't

cheating by the act of suicide. He was dead already.

Now suppose you had all the works of a particular writer and

could only take some with you, which would be the first you'd

throw away? I would get rid of No Man Is an Island, For Whom

the Bell Tolls, Across the River and into the Trees, The Green

Hills of Africa, and Death in the Afternoon. In Across the River

etc. he was writing himself close, but it was not good - not good

at all. It is just about the worst of Hemingway's books.

But I would certainly keep The Snows of Kilimanjaro, which

remains one of the greatest stories about death ever written, be-

cause he wrote his own death in that story. Perhaps he was too

much of an egoist to write anything else.

Hemingway talks about looking at what is in front of you.

Well, a young man who wanted to leam how to write went

fishing with Papa Hemingway and asked him about writing. Papa

replied, "Try to figure out why I cussed you out ten minutes ago

and how the sun looked on the side of that marlin I just caught. "

But between Hemingway's eyes and the object falls the shadow

of Hemingway.

Korzybski says the creative process takes place when you look

at an object or a process in silence. And this I think is especially

true of dialogue. If you can look at a character without talking,

from inner silence, then your character will talk, and you get

realistic dialogue. Take something that you actually heard some-

one say, then let him say that and took at him; pretty soon he'll

say some more in the same lines. I remember this amazing used

car salesman, from Houston. He was the one who told me "You

know all a Jew wants to do is doodle a Christian girl, you know

that yourself." Well, I didn't say anything, but if I sat him down

right here, he could say a lot more along the same lines, I'm sure.

But Hemingway didn't give his characters a chance to talk. He

always talked for them, and they all talk Hemingway. Take The

Killers; it reads well, a good story, and very carefully assembled.

The dialogue sounds good, but how good is it? Here are the two

killers waiting around for the Swede, gassing meantime with the

counterman in this diner.

"What do they do in this town?"

"They eat the dinner. They all come here and eat the big

dinner. "

"That's right" says the counterman.

"He says that's right."

And then they're leaving, they're deciding whether they're

going to kill the counterman or not.

"What about sonny boy?"

"He's all right."

"You've got a lot of luck. You should play the races."

Of course, these last lines are purely Hemingway. And some-

one, maybe the counterman, says about the Swede: "He's cow-

ering in his room." Also:

"I can't bear to think of him just laying there, knowing

he's going to get it."

"Well you'd better not think of it then."

It's stylized. The killers never really get off the page, you can't

really see them. They don't come across with any real menace to

the reader.

*********************************************

Brought to you by Brave Souls Anonymous.

Lincoln, Nebraska

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:05:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jack'sfootballcareer

JackhimselftalksitinVisionsofDulouzanotgreatbook

onthewholebutwithsomegreatmoments.Sorry--thisisn'tintendedasartistry,there'sso

methingwrongwithmykeyboard.Butthenincorporatingaccidentisthematictothelist,no?

TedPelton

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:32:09 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Burroughs-Priest

In tune with all the priest stuff -

Wasn't Bill's character in _Drugstore Cowboy_ a junkie priest?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:29:20 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs-Priest (fwd)

In tune with all the priest stuff -

Wasn't Bill's character in _Drugstore Cowboy_ a junkie priest?

Yes that's right, and a fine job Bill does of it too. Check out the

Junkie's Christmas from the Interzone collection, this is a similar

storyline to that of Priest.

Anyone catch Bill's appearance in Van Sant's Even Cowgirls Get the Blues,

or the aids awareness movie 'And the Band Played On', both fairly recent

films.........

How ya doin' Alan.....

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:37:06 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: WSB Naked Lunch

I have seen for sale an audio version of Naked Lunch 2XCD. Now can anyone

tell me more about this, I understand it's a new release. Is it read by

Bill, is it a recent recording, does anyone have this yet? Also, I

Believe, Call Me Burroughs is now available on CD, does anyone have a

track listing of this recording, I know that it was recorded in the

sixities, possibly in Paris by Sommerville?

All replies most appreciated.

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:42:17 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: WSB Roswell Opera

Anyone heard more details about the project Bill was involved with

concerning the Roswell 47 UFO crash? Apparently, according to Miles biog

it was to be an opera. I know that Bill was involved with the Black Rider

project with, I think, the same people who were working on this Roswell

opera......There is mentioned in Miles a lot of stuff that Bill was

working on around 91/92 what ever became of this?

Does anyone know if WSB Communications has an email address?

Daniel (again!)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:37:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: junkie priest

yes he was.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:53:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jack'sfootballcareer

In-Reply-To: <960214220501_422961252@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Ted Pelton"

at Feb 14, 96 10:05:04 pm

>

> Jack himself talks it in Visions of Dulouz a not great book

> on the whole but with some great moments. Sorry--this isn't intended as

> artistry, there's something wrong with my keyboard.

> But then incorporating accident is thematic to the list, no?

> TedPelton

>

*smile*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:39:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: jk recordings

I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

(well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

/jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:44:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie> from "col. it's steve" at Feb 15,

96 02:39:23 pm

>

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

there's box set....called "the beat generation"

check out a good music store....i've seen it everywhere.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:47:54 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: wsb and black rider

the black rider is an album by tom waits and burroughs appears on a couple of

tracks, they're very good.If waits is doing the roswell opera it should prove

interesting.Waits' earlier work is influenced by the beats and well worth

checking out esp. closing time, the heart of saturday night and blue valentine.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:55:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie>

Odd, more than 50% of the messages I see here refer to CDs, television

shows, poetry readings or movies. Much of the discussion revolves around

trivia such as Kerouac's football credentials. But the Beats were highly

literate and intellectual, weren't they?

Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

Louis Proyect

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:32:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth?

>Salinger's decision to exclude himself as a personal figure, Jack wanted

>to be a writer remembered for his work, not his lifestyle.

>What do you think?

>Peter

well.

his life was as an observer (reader?) *and* writer, his friends were mostly

writer's, & the majority (& best) of his work a narration of his life as he saw

it.

in understanding his writing you must understand his lifestyle - both were

catalysts. would he have written like he did, had he stayed in lowell? would

he have lived as he did, had he not known he were a writer?

i think he must be remembered for both, good & bad aspects, everything & all.

if jack *really* wanted to be remembered purely for his writing then he

shouldn't

have written so much about his own personal life. there are many writers who

will be remembered for their literary aspirations that didn't write about their

own personal lives or lifestyles.

yes? no? maybe?

>Saying that Kerouac was only human in defense of his less than model

>behaviour makes me think of an interesting point. Maybe his being just

>slightly "more human" than most of us in his faults allowed him to

>capture humanity more brilliantly in his work.

>Noah Bergman

exactly.

q.1. neal cassady was born in salt lake city, utah. i'm going there early

march. are there any places worth visiting in respect to neal?

q.2. has anyone got the poem, or know the book that holds the poem titled

'the man and the piano' by charles bukowski.

joe

ps. wsb spoke only one language. burroughs!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215095040.23531D-100000@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

>

> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

>

> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

>

> Louis Proyect

>

I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:27:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215095040.23531D-100000@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>

from "Louis N Proyect" at Feb 15, 96 09:55:56 am

i have to say that listening to kerouac recite "a scene from san

francisco" gave me an entirely new perspective on the man.....

i disagree with a comment made by someone not too long

ago...forgive my poor memory...about kerouac becoming a bitter in his

later works.......he is painfully...if not brutally honest with himself

about his life and his drinking......i see no bitterness in "big

sur".....granted, i have yet to finish....and it is pure coincedence that

i picked up this book the after reading

carolyn cassady's "off the road" but for a man consumed with

alcohol...his recollections are vivid and detailed...energetic and

profound....

> Odd, more than 50% of the messages I see here refer to CDs, television

> shows, poetry readings or movies. Much of the discussion revolves around

> trivia such as Kerouac's football credentials. But the Beats were highly

> literate and intellectual, weren't they?

the life force that was kerouac and cassady and ginsberg was reflected in

all that they did....every moment of awareness.....every action and

sensation.....every movement and non-movement.....they LIVED....they did

not sit in institutions discussing intellectual theories ad-nauseum..

> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

getting fucked up is entirely your perception.....

they discussed how the books and ideas were relevant to LIFE......

how they could perceive LIFE in another way using this knowledge as a

catalyst.....

> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

can't answer for all "young folks"

but've met many a'folk in general who would rather be anesthetized

than revolutionized.........

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:27:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: movers and shakers

I might be playing the devil's advocate here, but I just wanted to

propose a though that entered my head recently. Please don't just send

back nasty attacks without thinking about its content please.

Now, I don't know if I even agree with this, but... was Kerouac really a

very interesting person? His writing skills were amazing and his depth

of thought on a lot of subject was very deep, but just think about

something. Most of his books were about past adventures with a main

character other than himself. It seems that when he was by himself

without a Neal Cassidy or Gary Snyder to push him along he resorted to

drinking to pass the time. Don't take this as an attack on Kerouac, he's

one of my heroes. I just think that you have to at least take a glance

at both sides of your heroes too.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:55:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960215111746.106533A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

> I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

> this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

> chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

> discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

> with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

> some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

> can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

>

Don't be so thin-skinned, Noah. I am just trying to understand your

g-g-g-generation, as the Who song puts it. I rather like being in touch

with the MTV generation.

I'm 51 myself and hung out with some of the original beats when I was a

16 year old freshman at Bard College in 1961. People like Robert Kelly,

for example.

I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

hair, tattoos, etc.

I don't understand this. Back in the 1950s, rebellion was measured more

in terms of what was inside people's minds. Burroughs himself was a very

conservative dresser. Kerouac simply emulated the style of blue-collar

workers, since that was mainly what he did.

What is the fascination with style? What is the fascination with

rock-and-roll, MTV, poetry readings that seem to be set up for a Gap

commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

So, sorry to appear rude, censorious or insensitive. I am simply putting

questions forward in my own blunt style.

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:43:46 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

Louis wrote:

>

>I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

>apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

>million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

>hair, tattoos, etc.

>

>I don't understand this. Back in the 1950s, rebellion was measured more

>in terms of what was inside people's minds. Burroughs himself was a very

>conservative dresser. Kerouac simply emulated the style of blue-collar

>workers, since that was mainly what he did.

>

>What is the fascination with style? What is the fascination with

>rock-and-roll, MTV, poetry readings that seem to be set up for a Gap

>commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

>seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

>doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

Louis,

I wish there was an easy way to answer your question -

because you make really good points (style over substance as a statment) -

but I worry that what I *think* I understand as a member of the Mtv

generation (I'm 23) won't be translatable to other gens. There is a lot of

strength to the idea that "you had to be there", in order to get certain

things - obviously, I'll never have but an inkling of the true nature of

Beat, as I've gotten it 2nd hand (except for attending a wonderful Allen

Ginsberg reading at my college).

as someone who spent adolescence draping herself in

'alternative' clothing so that people could tell what 'tribe' i belonged to,

i can honestly say that style & appearance are the modes of communication

that I (and, I believe, my generation) were brought up on - to express

ourselves in non-verbal and non-written ways - it was the fastest and

easiest way to assess the character and interests of the people we find

ourselves surrounded by. I also think that appearance seems more immediate

- if you see a person with magenta hair, a celtic knot tatoo and a couple of

interesting piercings - you can assume much about that person - all of which

are totally shallow, of course.

The beats were more on the money in that they talked and

talked and listened and read in order to express themselves and find

allegiances. I think the culture and time in which they found themselves -

repressive, conformist '50's - valued substance - so the beats were smart

enough to seize that knowledge and use it as a weapon against the society

they felt stifled them. Today, we are an image literate society - ('words

are meaningless and forgetable' - if I may quote Depeche Mode) - hell bent

on NOW NOW NOW - you've got pitch your product in under a minute - you've

got to capture the hearts and minds of your audience before they change the

channel - you've got to be flashy.

so - yes, Louis, I agree with you - but I would say that

just because the surface is glittery and flashy doesn't mean that there

isn't some depth. Means of expression have mutated - we need new ways of

reading one another.

my $1.32 for the day.

gabby

============================================================================

"We now have a new rule on the bus: passengers will refrain from KILLING MY

SOUL!

Thank you."

-Bus Driver Stu Benedict

The Adventures of Pete and Pete

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:43:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: roswell opera

bill appears on the Black Rider album with Tom Waits.I don't know about the

roswell thing though. Its worth checking out other Tom Waits material though

as he took alot of inspiration from the beats, especially on his earlier albums

like closing Time,Heart of Saturday Night,Blue Valentine.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:38:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

In-Reply-To: <199602131544.KAA30784@lynx.dac.neu.edu>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Tony Trigilio wrote:

> *Journals, Mid-Fifties: 1954-1958*. I saw him read from the book here

> in Boston, and by my observation he was gracious and energetic. Hope

wow, can you expand any on the reading? Journals, mid-fifties... is what

first got me into the beat culture

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:41:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Books

How many people out there have read any books by the Beats besides On the

Road or Naked Lunch?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:42:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth?

if jack *really* wanted to be remembered purely for his writing then he

shouldn't

have written so much about his own personal life. there are many writers who

will be remembered for their literary aspirations that didn't write about their

own personal lifestyles

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The literature teacher in me requires me to point out the fallacy of

being to quick to associate the author and the speaker of the text.

Although Jack and say Sal Paradise had much in common, they had much in

difference as well. Many writers in the Post Modern era choose to

utilize their life experience, but that does not mean that the works

are intended to be nor should they be read as autobiography.

I think you hit the nail on the head by differentiating between lifestyle

and life. Jack was at times after the style, not his biography.

Too many people still look at the Beats as people who lived "cool"

lifestyles and ignore their writing. They were writers and wanted to

be writers before all else. Maybe my phobia of their lack of acceptance

in academia leads to conclusions, but I am at UConn studing with Ann

Chaters, and even here I cannot do serious research on the Beats.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:02:23 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

>I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

>(well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

>they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

>/jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

Yes. Three recrdings of Kerouac were released in the fifties/early

sixties. These have been re-released by Rhino Records as a box set. They

also have included some outtakes.

I have some of these sounds at

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

My site also has a link to another site that has some longer audio files

(all these are .au files) from SF Blues and MC blues.

Tell us more about the hip-hop/jazzed backed kerouac you mention above. Is

iyt new? If it is old I would suggest it may be Blues and Haikus (which is

part of the Rhino set).

And concerning what kerouac and the others talked about--read kerouac's

books, especially Visions of Cody's third section: Frisco: The Tape.

Keouac bought a tape recorder (not common in 1951/2) specifically to tape

their "great" converstions. This portion of Visions of Cody is ostensibly

a direct transcript of various tape recording sessions at the Cassady's

house.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:51:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Mcgahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

hair, tattoos, etc.

I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simply living in the East Village does not make you a bohemian. What

many folks look at as bohemian (nose rings, tattoos etc) is not. Hint:

if a frat boy does it, it ain't hip.

Anyway, my response to this is that these kids are no more true bohemians

than the Beatniks that posed for Life magazine spreads thirty-five years

were Beats.

Find yourself some real bohemians and they are just as intellectual as the

best of the 50's and 60's. I'd wager to say that the intellectuals of

today are much more aware than their predecessors, they have to be.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:06:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

Two years ago I was in Tangier, staying at the Tanger Inn room 9 (where NAKED

LUNCH was written). I asked the hotel owner, an old Englishman named John

Sutcliffe, if he heard from any of the Beats any more.

"Yes, he said, Burroughs stayed here two weeks ago. "

I could have cried, I was so close. Of course, Sutcliffe claimed it was no

loss--"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

Christopher Miezio-Teggatz

Marquette University

Teggatz@AOL.COM

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:10:00 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: jk recordings

the hiphop/jazz track i have is new (its about ayear or two old) unfortunately

i haven't aclue who its by or where its from.i got it form a friend who got it

from the radio. I've nearly finished Visions of Cody and find its structue

reallyinteresting but a bit disjointed.The tape section is great + shud be

released.v

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:11:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: Books

In-Reply-To: <960215.124142.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

I just wanted to ask if anybody else feels Dharma Bums rivals On the Road

for quality. It may have just been the state of mind I was in when I

read it, but I found Dharma Bums to be much more clearly written. I

think in On the Road Kerouac was still rough in his transitions from

traditional to spontaneous prose. Dharma Bums is much more smooth in

terms of how it is more difficult to diffuse the spontaneous from the

pre-thought.

Also, I'd like to start a discussion on Gary Snyder. What would people

in the know recommend of his. I've read some of his work and find it

exquisite (something in "Civilization" speaks to me).

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:12:39 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: reading

yes i have read more than otr and naked lunch,quite alot more in fact.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:23:22 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: the list

i thought this was a forum for discusion on any aspects of the beats.Just

because people are interested in tapes and movies doesn't mean they haven't

read the books in fact it means they probably have read them and want MORE.

ok we're a younger generation but we're also hungry for stuff we love on any

format available.new technology can make obscure material more accessable and

thats a good thing in my eyes. i think hunger for more is a sign of love ..v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:30:04 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: fucked up on rugs

i don't think the beats got fucked up (ok there's always casualties) on drugs

they used them to get high, to change perception to just go,go,go.i'm a college

student and i do it and still get good grades. drugs are a social thing, a

leisure thing and sometimes a spiritual thing. its when they become a lifestyle

that they become a problem -"fucked up"- thing. The beat lifestyle wasn't

centred on drugs they were just a part of how they had a good time. I don't

think its fair to say they got fucked up (not all of them anyway)....v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:34:47 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Colleen Krawczyk <colleen@EXECPC.COM>

Subject: books...

I've read other beat lit. besides OTR and Naked Lunch...

Ginsberg's Howl sparked my interest in beat lit., along with a few other

poems by him...then, of course, I read OTR and enjoyed it so I also read

The Subterraneans and started Visions of Cody...I can't wait to spend more

time reading this summer (I'm just finishing my bachelor's this May, so

I spend most of my time now reading text books).

Colleen

Marquette University

colleen@execpc.com

krawczyk@mscs.mu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:08:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

I found "Desolation Angels" to be the perfect companion to both On The Road

and the Dharma Bums. Actually, DA and "Visions Of Cody" almost serve as a

concordance to the rest of Jack's non-Lowell books. I think that John

Clellon Holmes at one point mentioned that he thought some of the original

manuscript of "On The Road" eventually found its way into both Desolation

Angels and Visions Of Cody... which isn't too hard to imagine, as the

writing in the both of the subsequent works is much more alive and

energetic... the style much more inventive than can be found in his

potboilers.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:06:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: the list

Comments: To: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

In-Reply-To: <01I192KBLBO2DVFT91@dit.ie>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> i thought this was a forum for discusion on any aspects of the beats.Just

> because people are interested in tapes and movies doesn't mean they haven't

> read the books in fact it means they probably have read them and want MORE.

> ok we're a younger generation but we're also hungry for stuff we love on any

> format available.new technology can make obscure material more accessable and

> thats a good thing in my eyes. i think hunger for more is a sign of love ..v.

>

Will all of you stop being so fucking sensitive. No, don't go away just

because an old buzzard like myself badmouths Gap commercials. What would

you make of Kerouac himself? He was as rude and obnoxious to his "fans"

as can be imagined. This is a forum for everybody interested in the

beats. I'm just throwin' my two cents in...

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:41:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Books, poems, etc...

I've found it interesting to read Kerouac, particularly "Dharma Bums" and "On

The Road" out loud. The prose has a definite jazz quality, sort of like the

heart doing a saxophone cadenza. I've had the impression that the period of

"Dharma Bums" could very well have been the happiest time for Kerouac. He and

Snyder lived in the mountains with no communication with the outside world,

(and no booze for that matter) both of them alone with pen and paper, totally

in their element.

I have read and re-read Ginsberg's "Plutonian Ode" and, again, reading it out

loud, and maybe playing Peter Gabriel's "Passion" in the background, brings it

to life. It's a poem that transcends nuclear protest to a work of

epic/mythological proportions.

One of my favorite Beat poems has got to be Gregory Corso's "Marriage." He

was here in Louisville, KY in '93 and he read that one. I think a

friend of mine recorded it on video.

I saw Jim Carroll recently in Lexington and, even though he is not classed with

the original Beats, his books, particularly "Basketball Diaries" and "Forced

Entries" have that same immediancy of the moment.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:57:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Re: Books

At 02:08 PM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>I found "Desolation Angels" to be the perfect companion to both On The Road

>and the Dharma Bums. Actually, DA and "Visions Of Cody" almost serve as a

>concordance to the rest of Jack's non-Lowell books. I think that John

>Clellon Holmes at one point mentioned that he thought some of the original

>manuscript of "On The Road" eventually found its way into both Desolation

>Angels and Visions Of Cody... which isn't too hard to imagine, as the

>writing in the both of the subsequent works is much more alive and

>energetic... the style much more inventive than can be found in his

>potboilers.

>Jim

>

Not to take away from DA and VOC, but OTR ain`t no potboiler. It`s got long

stretches of achingly beautiful, lyrical writing, and is a complex novel to

boot, operating as it does on 6 levels or so, being: a comprehensive

critique (but almost unconsciously so) of 50`s conformist culture; an

investigation of interesting subcultures (eg., the Terry scenes, or "Denver

colored section" reveries); an acute study of family dysfunction (i.e., the

early life of Dean); a depiction of irrepressible American manhood and

optimism (i.e., the adult Dean`s adventures); a high-grade travelogue( eg.,

the Mexico scenes); and, not least, a spiritual quest (" I even thought of

old Dean Moriarty, the father we never found..."). OTR is a potboiler only

in the sense that some of its less lyrical prose recalls the telling of a

laconic detective tale - Jack later wrote that these parts sought to emulate

the style of Dashiell Hammett. OTR is, IMHO, the greatest novel to appear

in America since 1945. This is true, and will remain true, whether or not

Harold Bloom puts Kerouac in his Western Canon.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:27:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215104734.16052B-100000@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

> commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

> seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

> doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

>

> So, sorry to appear rude, censorious or insensitive. I am simply putting

> questions forward in my own blunt style.

>

And in a widely generalizng style! As a youth of 20, I dress quite

"normally." I love to immulate the beats, and thrive in discussing

literature with my friends. I also write poetry and fiction, and love to

share it with others, and in turn, read others' works. I discuss

philosophy,politics, and music with my circle of friends. I think there

is a large group of "youngsters" out here who love to be "intellectual

and literary"

I think each generation has their "literates" then those who only care

for the trends of the time.

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:27:43 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: "Potboiler"

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:57:47 EST

Jack was the one who referred to his "hit" books as potboilers... in

conversation with John Montgomery. I know that he was somewhat

dissatisfied with the editorial work that altered his manuscript of "On

The Road", and maybe that was the basis for his attitude regarding the

book.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:35:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

Comments: To: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Kerouac considered Dharma Bums a "potboiler", written to capitalize

on the success of OTR. I don't think he meant to dismiss the book by

saying this, but it's put in a place outside of books written for

love like VISIONS (all of them) or SUBTERRANEANS.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:36:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books, poems, etc...

Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US> wrote:

>One of my favorite Beat poems has got to be Gregory Corso's "Marriage." He

>was here in Louisville, KY in '93 and he read that one. I think a

>friend of mine recorded it on video.

"Marriage" is definately one of my favorites, too. I also loved Ginsberg's

"America" and his rather compact "On Burroughs' Work."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

An it's yer life

Do it - don talk it - Andra Greenberg

Forget about the talkers - Duke University

They'll always be around asg5@acpub.duke.edu

You won't ......

--Bob Dylan--

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:16:32 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Potboiler"

>Jack was the one who referred to his "hit" books as potboilers... in

>conversation with John Montgomery. I know that he was somewhat

>dissatisfied with the editorial work that altered his manuscript of "On

>The Road", and maybe that was the basis for his attitude regarding the

>book.

>Jim

Actually he referred to Dharma Bums as a potboiler. Visions of Cody he

thought of as his masterpiece. He wrote Dharma Bums at the instigation of

his publishers after the success of On The Road. The publishers wanted

another book of similar meddle. Dr. Sax was a little too trippy for them

and it was about a little kid and his inner life fantasies not "wild

orgies" or whatever. This is not to imply that Dharma Bums is a bad book

in any way. It is not the artistic statement of VoC, Dr. Sax or On the

Road though.

In terms of his Buddhist studies I think Visions of Gerard is more a

complete statement of his learning as applied to his philosophy and

artistic endeavors. This book mixes buddhism and catholicism throughout.

In Tom Clark's biography of kerouac it is written that the catholic parts

of Dharma Bums were edited out. That's all the info it provides there

though. It would be nice to know more about the lost passages of the

Dharma Bums. Of course one "catholic" part that was left in is the very

first part of the book where he meets his first dharma bum--the tramp on

the train with a catholic saint icon. (Which saint was it?) Catholicism

wasn't hip and far out enough for the target audience I guess. Tristessa

also is a good unexpurgated reflection of his buddhism and catholicism as

is Mexico City Blues. Dharma Bums, though ostensibly about buddhist

americans and buddhism may be the least full document of kerouac concerning

his buddhist studies.

Dharma Bums and On the Road were subject to a fair amount of editing by the

major label publisher. His later published books, Dr. Sax, Tristessa,

Subterraneans, Mexico City Blues et al were published as is. He was able

to recieve that amount of artistic control. To do this though he was

published by smaller presses, eg Grove Press and a paperback "exploitation"

press for Tristessa.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:21:39 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

>Kerouac considered Dharma Bums a "potboiler", written to capitalize

>on the success of OTR. I don't think he meant to dismiss the book by

>saying this, but it's put in a place outside of books written for

>love like VISIONS (all of them) or SUBTERRANEANS.

Yes. That is one of the reasons I think kerouac's books are lasting as

great literature. He truely wrote them for love. He was a published

writer who garnered good reviews for his first book (though it didn't sell

well). he presented his second book and it was turned down. He wrote more

books and they were turned down. He could have changed his style or gone

along with publisher's requests (eg they would have published Dr. Sax as a

childhood memoir if he took out the fantasy parts). But he didn't.

Eventually he got to the point where he didn't even know if his books would

be published but he wrote them anyhow. That's literature as opposed to

fiction.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:20:52 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500 from

<x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500 Noah Bergman said:

>On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

>>

>> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

>> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

>> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

>> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

>>

>> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

>>

>> Louis Proyect

>>

>I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

>this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

>chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

>discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

>with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

>some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

>can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

Beat-l is a forum devoted to the study of the lives and works of the writers of

the Beat Generation, especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, & William Burrou

ghs. It is also intended to facilitate scholarly communication and to serve a

s a bulletin board for new publications, upcoming conferences, and related Beat

events.

Bill Gargan, listowner.

If I might add a personal note: A while back, a discussion on Generation X see

med to take over the list. Some our of colleagues may be reacting to that even

t.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:34:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

Yeah, i know there's a box set called the jack kerouac Collection (or

something like that) It contains three CDs. In the first one Jack reads

his prose and poems. In the 2nd he reads haikus with jazz playin in the

background, and the 3rd is kind of a duet between jack readin his stuff,

and saxophones.

-Matt Sackmann

"Ah yes, maybe I'm wrong and all the Christian, Islamic, Neo Platonist,

Buddhist, Hindu, and Zen Mystics of the world were wrong about the

transcendental mystery of existence but I don't think so- Like the thirty

birds who reached God and saw themselves reflected in His Mirror. the

thirty Dirty Birds, those 970 of us birds who never made it across the

Valley of Divine Illumination did really make it anyway in Perfection- So

now let me explain about poor Cody, even though I've already told most of

his story. he is a BELIEVER in life and he WANTS to go to Heaven but

because he loves life so he embraces it so much he thinks he sins and

will never seeHeaven- He was a Catholic altar boy as I say even when he

was bumming dimes for his hopeless father hiding in alleys. You could

have ten thousand cold eyed Materialistic officials claim they love life

too but can never embrace it so near sin and also never see Heaven- They

will contemn the hot-blooded lifelover with their cold papers on a desk

because they have no blood and therefore have no sin? No! They sin by

lifelessness!They are the ogres of Law entering the holy realm of Sin1

Ah, I've got to explain myself without essays and poems-Cody had a wife

whom he really loved, and three kids he really loved, and a good job on

the railroad. But when the sun went down his blood got hot:- hot for old

lovers like Joanna, for old pleasure like marijuana and talk, for jazz, for

the gayety that any respectable American wants in a life growing more

arid by the year in Law Riddenh America. But he did not hide his desire

and cry DRY! He went all out. He filled hgis car with friends and booze

and pot and batted around looking for ecstasy like some fieldworker on a

Saturday night in Georgia when the moon cools the still and guitars are

twangin down the hill. he came from sturdy Missouri stock that walked on

strong feet. We've all seen him kneel SWEATING praying to God!"

Jack Kerouac describing Neal Cassady in "Desolation Angels"

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:41:44 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <960215.124142.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Peter McGahey wrote:

> How many people out there have read any books by the Beats besides On the

> Road or Naked Lunch?

>

I Have.

Only one though, "Desolation Angels", but im just beginning (at 18) to

get truly fascinated with the Beats.

-matt sackmann

"Ah yes, maybe I'm wrong and all the Christian, Islamic, Neo Platonist,

Buddhist, Hindu, and Zen Mystics of the world were wrong about the

transcendental mystery of existence but I don't think so- Like the thirty

birds who reached God and saw themselves reflected in His Mirror. the

thirty Dirty Birds, those 970 of us birds who never made it across the

Valley of Divine Illumination did really make it anyway in Perfection- So

now let me explain about poor Cody, even though I've already told most of

his story. he is a BELIEVER in life and he WANTS to go to Heaven but

because he loves life so he embraces it so much he thinks he sins and

will never seeHeaven- He was a Catholic altar boy as I say even when he

was bumming dimes for his hopeless father hiding in alleys. You could

have ten thousand cold eyed Materialistic officials claim they love life

too but can never embrace it so near sin and also never see Heaven- They

will contemn the hot-blooded lifelover with their cold papers on a desk

because they have no blood and therefore have no sin? No! They sin by

lifelessness!They are the ogres of Law entering the holy realm of Sin1

Ah, I've got to explain myself without essays and poems-Cody had a wife

whom he really loved, and three kids he really loved, and a good job on

the railroad. But when the sun went down his blood got hot:- hot for old

lovers like Joanna, for old pleasure like marijuana and talk, for jazz, for

the gayety that any respectable American wants in a life growing more

arid by the year in Law Riddenh America. But he did not hide his desire

and cry DRY! He went all out. He filled hgis car with friends and booze

and pot and batted around looking for ecstasy like some fieldworker on a

Saturday night in Georgia when the moon cools the still and guitars are

twangin down the hill. he came from sturdy Missouri stock that walked on

strong feet. We've all seen him kneel SWEATING praying to God!"

Jack Kerouac describing Neal Cassady in "Desolation Angels"

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:49:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Books

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:41:16 EST from

<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

An odd question but I've read just about all of Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burrough

s and most of what's been written about them.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:14:43 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Books, poems, etc...

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:41:39 -0500 from

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:41:39 -0500 Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch said:

>I've found it interesting to read Kerouac, particularly "Dharma Bums" and "On

>The Road" out loud. The prose has a definite jazz quality, sort of like the

>heart doing a saxophone cadenza. I've had the impression that the period of

>"Dharma Bums" could very well have been the happiest time for Kerouac. He and

>Snyder lived in the mountains with no communication with the outside world,

>(and no booze for that matter) both of them alone with pen and paper, totally

>in their element.

>

>I have read and re-read Ginsberg's "Plutonian Ode" and, again, reading it out

>loud, and maybe playing Peter Gabriel's "Passion" in the background, brings it

>to life. It's a poem that transcends nuclear protest to a work of

>epic/mythological proportions.

>

>One of my favorite Beat poems has got to be Gregory Corso's "Marriage." He

>was here in Louisville, KY in '93 and he read that one. I think a

>friend of mine recorded it on video.

>

>I saw Jim Carroll recently in Lexington and, even though he is not classed with

>the original Beats, his books, particularly "Basketball Diaries" and "Forced

>Entries" have that same immediancy of the moment.

I agree. I think PO is first rate work and one of Ginsberg's most underrated p

oems. It deserves careful reading.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@UBC" <sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: movers and shakers

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960215112307.106533B-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

> Now, I don't know if I even agree with this, but... was Kerouac really a

> very interesting person? His writing skills were amazing and his depth

> of thought on a lot of subject was very deep, but just think about

> something. Most of his books were about past adventures with a main

> character other than himself. It seems that when he was by himself

> without a Neal Cassidy or Gary Snyder to push him along he resorted to

> drinking to pass the time. Don't take this as an attack on Kerouac, he's

> one of my heroes. I just think that you have to at least take a glance

> at both sides of your heroes too.

Kerouac of the books and Kerouac the real man are two very different

constructs...

In "Jack Kerouac: Statement in Brown" Joy Walsh has some interesting

comments that touch upon this topic. Walsh feels that one can gain

insights into Kerouac's writing by dissociating him from the group of

Beat Generation writers and looking at him in other contexts. This ties

in with her perception of Kerouac as always distancing himself from the

events he describes in his books. A quote: Kerouac removed himself from

the Beats, but was "part of the gang as an observer, rather than a

participant" (p. 50). Further: "any content analysis conclusion

concerning the character or inner motivation of the personae presented as

representations of Kerouac [...] is almost impossible until we reach

Vanity of Duluoz" (p. 51)

In another essay in the same book, Walsh discusses when Kerouac

interjects himself into his fiction using a certain leitmotif on many

occasions: "Kerouac's role or presence or much that pertained to him

personally was introduced by use of a leitmotif. The basic theme [...]

which announces Kerouac's presence in parts of the canon is the color

Brown (p.41)

Has anyone noticed this leitmotif or other recurrent textual markers in

the Kerouac canon?

Regards,

Bent Sorensen

Visiting Grad. Student, Dept. of English, UBC

Ph.D. Student, Aalborg University, Denmark

<http://hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.dk> OR <.../bent.uk>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:49:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Kerouac again

Following up on Bill`s post, I`d like to say that I`ve also read almost all

of Kerouac and what`s been written about him. I feel one can best understand

him if one has done so, so I urge all Beat enthusiasts to read as much

Kerouac (including his poetry) as possible (and re-read him). While one`s

appreciation of any author is enhanced by reading his full oeuvre, this is

particularly true with Kerouac, whose works were intended as a series of

autobiographical, linked episodes - The Duluoz Legend. Sorry, but I`m on the

side of those who cannot look at his works in isolation from the lives of

those depicted in them. Jack shouted over a thousand scarred bartops that

his books were "true life stories": his insistence on spontaneous

composition only underscores this. But this doesn`t diminish the books as

literature - remember, Jack was by definiton trying to create a new American

prose form - he wanted to, and did, escape the bounds of the European idea

of the novel. So, judge him by his declared (and revealed) artistic

purposes. And who cares what Truman Capote thought, or John Updike (the

latter has started to change his tune, by the way, saying recently that

Kerouac`s books emphasize "a certain flow" - the literary understatement of

the century, surely!). We who study Jack and the other Beats must try to

have the same confidence on the critical level which Jack always

demonstrated as an artist. Of course, his fight was a much tougher go than

ours will ever be. He was much damaged by having to cope with the

unthinking, often jealous, reactions of the Capotes, Podhoretz` and the

rest. As JCH wrote of Jack, he was incapable of dealing with the world and

its politics. Jack pointed this out himself in one of his Beat essays when

he said he was famous on his block as a kid for trying to stop his chums

from roasting snakes in tin cans and blowing up frogs with straws. Guess

that was just more typing to Mr. Truman Capote, Novelist...

Gary M. Gillman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:24:10 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: scott andrew cederlund <scott@WWA.COM>

Subject: Dharma Bums (was Re: Books)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960215140722.35421A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

I just finished Dharma Bums for a class and it was the Kerouac book I

enjoyed the most. We read of JK's books, OTR, Subterraneans, and Dharma

Bums. While I enjoyed all three and got a lot out of them, I think I

identifired more with Ray in Dharma Bums than either Sal or Leo. This is

my first time reading these books, so maybe that will change with looking

at them some more.

scott

__________________________________________________________________________

|scott@wwa.com |For my purpose holds |

|scottac@pshrink.chi.il.us |To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths |

|cy475@FreeNet.Carleton.CA |Of all the western stars, until I die. |

| | Ulysses- Alfred Lord Tennyson |

+_________________________________________________________________________+

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:39:36 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: scott andrew cederlund <scott@WWA.COM>

Subject: Gallery Six

Here's just a question of semantics, but it is something I've been

wanting to know...

About the Gallery Six poetry reading, I've seen is named both Gallery Six

and Six Gallery. What's up with that? Anyone know?

scott

__________________________________________________________________________

|scott@wwa.com |For my purpose holds |

|scottac@pshrink.chi.il.us |To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths |

|cy475@FreeNet.Carleton.CA |Of all the western stars, until I die. |

| | Ulysses- Alfred Lord Tennyson |

+_________________________________________________________________________+

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:52:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: re WSB Naked Lunch

>Also, I Believe, Call Me Burroughs is now available on CD, >does anyone have

a track listing of this recording, I know that >it was recorded in the

sixties, possibly in Paris by >Sommerville?

"Call Me Burroughs" is available on CD or cassette from Rhino/WordBeat (R2/R4

71848). The original recording was indeed made by Ian Sommerville, in Paris,

and was first issued by the English Bookshop (Paris) in June, 1965. It was

later released in the US by ESP-Disk, NYC, 1966.

Tracks are: Bradley the Buyer; Meeting of International Conference of

Technological Psychiatry; The Fish Poison Con; Thing Police Keep All Board

Room Reports; Mr. Bradley Mr. Martin Hear Us Through The Hole In Thin Air;

Where you Belong; Inflexible Authority; and, Ukranian Willy.

Much of the material was composed using cut-up techniques, and it is all

delivered in Burroughs' wonderfully dead-pan, carnival-barker style.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:28:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Books, poems, etc...

On Feb 15, 1996 17:14:43, 'Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>' wrote:

>I have read and re-read Ginsberg's "Plutonian Ode" and, again, reading it

out

>>loud, and maybe playing Peter Gabriel's "Passion" in the background,

I saw Ginsberg read from a hand-written copy of "Plutonium Ode" in Dallas

in '75. I also somehow ended up with a copy of the hand-written version.

Does anyone know if such a thing would be valuable or even interesting to a

collector or curator??

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:37:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: wsb and black rider

On Feb 15, 1996 14:47:54, '"col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>' wrote:

>the black rider is an album by tom waits and burroughs appears on a couple

of

It was actually an opera performed live at Brooklyn Academy of Music a few

years ago. The album is the soundtrack.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:33:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: No Subject

On Feb 15, 1996 15:27:18, 'Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>'

wrote:

>I love to immulate the beats

Is that "immolate" or "emulate"?

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:59:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

On Feb 15, 1996 13:06:48, 'Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>I asked the hotel owner, an old Englishman named John

>Sutcliffe, if he heard from any of the Beats any more.

>"Yes, he said, Burroughs stayed here two weeks ago. "

>I could have cried, I was so close. Of course, Sutcliffe claimed it was no

>loss--"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it

I went to school with a John Sutcliffe at Kenyon in the 60's. His father,

Denholm, was chairman of the English dept there for years. Please describe

him (private email) if you can. He would be about 50, tall and large-boned

with what I can only call a thin head relative to his body. Am I way off

here or what?

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:55:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Books

On Feb 15, 1996 13:11:11, 'Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>' wrote:

>Also, I'd like to start a discussion on Gary Snyder. What would people

>in the know recommend of his. I've read some of his work and find it

>exquisite (something in "Civilization" speaks to me).

I have followed Gary Snyder's work for many years (about 30, last count)

and have been to readings of his and met him once (1970). His best work I

feel was written in the 60's and early 70's (Riprap, Cold Mountain Poems

translation, The Back Country, Mountains and Rivers Without End, Earth

Household, Myths & Texts, Regarding Wave, and maybe Turtle Island. As for

critical works about him, Gary Snyder by Bob Steuding, published by Twayne,

a division of G. K. Hall & Co., Boston, 1976 is the only one I have read,

but it is fairly complete and competent for it's time. Snyder is perhaps

the most scholarly of the beats, having obtained a doctorate, studied Zen

in Japan, and done much criticism as well as taught extensively. There was

a recent series narrated by Bill Moyers about living poets and the episode

on Snyder was quite moving. It aired on PBS a few months ago.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:30:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J. Killin" <JMkill@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: BREWERNC@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu

To: JMkill@aol.com

Date: 96-02-15 21:13:53 EST

Toby,

Hi. My Name is Nate and I have done a lot of reading on the

Beats to say the least. The best account of Kerouac's career ending

injury is given in the biography titled, Memory Babe. I am not to sure

who wrote it, but I think that it was Ann Charters, but I wouldn't bet my

life on it. I believe that Tom Clark also mentions something about it

in his biography as well. Check the first one first, it is a superior

record of Jack's life, that cuts out all the myth and legend, and still

makes for a very good read.

later

nate

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 00:17:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: fucked up on rugs (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: fucked up on rugs

i don't think the beats got fucked up (ok there's always casualties) on drugs

they used them to get high, to change perception to just go,go,go.

its when they become a lifestyle

that they become a problem -"fucked up"- thing.

I don't

think its fair to say they got fucked up (not all of them anyway)..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember - Bill shot his wife in the head and had to flee several countries

and states because of his drug habit. He also went on a safari to find

Yage. I think that would qualify as a drug problem with the DEA.

Does anyone else find it at all ironic that the Beats who chose alcohol

died so quickly and those who favored the "hard stuff" just seem to

be immortal?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 03:06:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Books

********************************************************************************

*

*

I just wanted to ask if anybody else feels Dharma Bums rivals On the Road

for quality. It may have just been the state of mind I was in when I

read it, but I found Dharma Bums to be much more clearly written. I

think in On the Road Kerouac was still rough in his transitions from

traditional to spontaneous prose. Dharma Bums is much more smooth in

terms of how it is more difficult to diffuse the spontaneous from the

pre-thought.

Also, I'd like to start a discussion on Gary Snyder. What would people

in the know recommend of his. I've read some of his work and find it

exquisite (something in "Civilization" speaks to me).

********************************************************************************

*

**

I've read DB twice and enjoyed it immensely both times. I think it is less

driven than OTR,

more meditative--the difference between Neil & Gary basically. I agree with you

that it's clearer

than OTR, but perhaps less poetic. Or maybe its poetry is more that of the

haiku (a form

which Kerouac & Snyder have a lot of fun with in the book) while OTR is more

free-flowing

great jazzy romantic strophes. (Go, go, go.)

BTW Gary Snyder has said in interviews (and perhaps somewhere in print?)

that

he does not consider DB to be on a par with OTR-- but I don't recall him

elaborating.

I think Snyder's best work can be found in *Turtle Island* and *Regarding

Wave*.

Also I'm very fond of *Riprap and Cold Mountain Poems*, an early work.

" The world's like an endless

Four-dimensional

Game of GO."

--Riprap

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 03:06:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: WSB Questions

dnder: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: WSB Questions

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

Hello all:

>To save some bandwith, let me pose the one I am most interested

>in having aswere: between his Harvard schooling, and travels (exiles)

>in a myriad of countries, did WSB speak/read/write any language

>other than english?? He intended to study medicine in Vienna

>(and, according to Morgan, could read "some" German)

>and quotes himself using spanish words throughout _Junky_,

>but otherwise there are no allusions to his foreign

>language abilities.

>Bill Jr. makes fun of his old man's French (I think?) in

>_Kentucky Ham_ (if I recall correctly), but I wonder how

>substantiated this may be.

WSB certainly has rich knowledge of several languages, but I question

his ability to speak them with any fluency. Or maybe I should say his DESIRE

to speak them with any fluency, since the man doesn't even seem to try. His

spoken German

and Spanish are hilariously bad.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 03:06:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: wsb and black rider

>the black rider is an album by tom waits and burroughs appears on a couple of

>tracks, they're very good.If waits is doing the roswell opera it should prove

>interesting.Waits' earlier work is influenced by the beats and well worth

>checking out esp. closing time, the heart of saturday night and blue valentine.

I would enthusiastically second the recommendations, adding *Rain Dogs* and

*Frank's

Wild Years* to the list. The beat influence on Waits is unmistakable, and Waits

+ Burroughs is a great synergy.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:12:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: fucked up on rugs (fwd)

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

>Subject: fucked up on rugs

>

>i don't think the beats got fucked up (ok there's always casualties) on drugs

>they used them to get high, to change perception to just go,go,go.

>

> its when they become a lifestyle

>that they become a problem -"fucked up"- thing.

> I don't

>think its fair to say they got fucked up (not all of them anyway)..

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Remember - Bill shot his wife in the head and had to flee several countries

>and states because of his drug habit. He also went on a safari to find

>Yage. I think that would qualify as a drug problem with the DEA.

Granted, Bill was a junkie (hence the name of his book). Bill and Huncke are

the exceptions. To clarify, the search for yage was a purely spiritual

quest. Bill was the scientist here (or pseudo-scientist as I am sure he

would prefer to be called). It (the long search) was not part of his junk

problem (if indeed he saw it as a problem - "Junk is a way of life").

>

>Does anyone else find it at all ironic that the Beats who chose alcohol

>died so quickly and those who favored the "hard stuff" just seem to

>be immortal?

>

Also illuminatory. Alcohol is a thoroughly horrible drug.

Alan Maddrell - who wishes he could be fucked on rugs so he wouldn't have to

be fucked on drugs...:)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:35:46 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

Two years ago I was in Tangier, staying at the Tanger Inn room 9 (where NAKED

LUNCH was written). I asked the hotel owner, an old Englishman named John

Sutcliffe, if he heard from any of the Beats any more.

"Yes, he said, Burroughs stayed here two weeks ago. "

I could have cried, I was so close. Of course, Sutcliffe claimed it was no

loss--"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

Christopher Miezio-Teggatz

I stayed in the same place, Hotel Muniria in 93 and remember John well.

How did you manage to stay in room 9, that was John's room! He told me

that Cronenborg (sp) had recently visited to take photos for the Naked

Lunch sets for his movie, which was eventually shot in Canada....the

Tanger Inn was a great place for a chilled beer in the evening.....happy

memories

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:10:40 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

>loss--"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it

I went to school with a John Sutcliffe at Kenyon in the 60's. His father,

Denholm, was chairman of the English dept there for years. Please describe

him (private email) if you can. He would be about 50, tall and large-boned

with what I can only call a thin head relative to his body. Am I way off

here or what?

***************************************************************************

I remember that John Sutcliffe had his own novel for sale down in the

Tanger Inn, though they had sold out and had only the copy on display

which wasn't for sale. Anyone read this, or remember what it's called?

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:18:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: movers and shakers

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800 from

<sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800 bs@UBC said:

>On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

>

>> Now, I don't know if I even agree with this, but... was Kerouac really a

>> very interesting person? His writing skills were amazing and his depth

>> of thought on a lot of subject was very deep, but just think about

>> something. Most of his books were about past adventures with a main

>> character other than himself. It seems that when he was by himself

>> without a Neal Cassidy or Gary Snyder to push him along he resorted to

>> drinking to pass the time. Don't take this as an attack on Kerouac, he's

>> one of my heroes. I just think that you have to at least take a glance

>> at both sides of your heroes too.

>

>Kerouac of the books and Kerouac the real man are two very different

>constructs...

>

>In "Jack Kerouac: Statement in Brown" Joy Walsh has some interesting

>comments that touch upon this topic. Walsh feels that one can gain

>insights into Kerouac's writing by dissociating him from the group of

>Beat Generation writers and looking at him in other contexts. This ties

>in with her perception of Kerouac as always distancing himself from the

>events he describes in his books. A quote: Kerouac removed himself from

>the Beats, but was "part of the gang as an observer, rather than a

>participant" (p. 50). Further: "any content analysis conclusion

>concerning the character or inner motivation of the personae presented as

>representations of Kerouac [...] is almost impossible until we reach

>Vanity of Duluoz" (p. 51)

>

>In another essay in the same book, Walsh discusses when Kerouac

>interjects himself into his fiction using a certain leitmotif on many

>occasions: "Kerouac's role or presence or much that pertained to him

>personally was introduced by use of a leitmotif. The basic theme [...]

>which announces Kerouac's presence in parts of the canon is the color

>Brown (p.41)

>

>Has anyone noticed this leitmotif or other recurrent textual markers in

>the Kerouac canon?

>

>Regards,

>

>Bent Sorensen

>Visiting Grad. Student, Dept. of English, UBC

>Ph.D. Student, Aalborg University, Denmark

><http://hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.dk> OR <.../bent.uk>

Yes, Joy as usual is right on target. Anyone in touch with Joy? Wish we could

get her to join this list.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:29:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Football Career

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:30:50 -0500 from <JMkill@AOL.COM>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:30:50 -0500 J. Killin said:

>---------------------

>Forwarded message:

>From: BREWERNC@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu

>To: JMkill@aol.com

>Date: 96-02-15 21:13:53 EST

>

>Toby,

>

> Hi. My Name is Nate and I have done a lot of reading on the

>Beats to say the least. The best account of Kerouac's career ending

>injury is given in the biography titled, Memory Babe. I am not to sure

>who wrote it, but I think that it was Ann Charters, but I wouldn't bet my

>life on it. I believe that Tom Clark also mentions something about it

>in his biography as well. Check the first one first, it is a superior

>record of Jack's life, that cuts out all the myth and legend, and still

>makes for a very good read.

>

>later

>nate

Big mistake! You'll get into a lot of trouble saying Ann Charters wrote Memory

Babe. Gerry Nicosia wrote Memory Babe. Ann Charters wrote Kerouac, the first

biography.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:38:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac...an obnoxious fellow?

Jack Kerouac was an alcoholic.

Alcoholism is a disease.

That does not excuse anything he did.

Based on his writing I will always believe his core, his soul was a thing of

beauty. And I believe that part of the essence of "beat" was a way for all

of us to see and express the beauty within. No perfect, but beautiful -- and

what a gift he had to express it. Thanks Jack. Thanks to all great artists.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:35:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "joe@bullet.sware.com" <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: accusatory mindfucking stare

the list has mentioned kerouac's bitterness in last chapter of his life, and in

particular the last few books he wrote.

it brought back a conversation i'd read between kerouac & c.jarvis about neals

death, specifically other writers who'd written about neal...

"do you feel any resentment against tom wolfe, or even ken kesey who obviously

became neal cassady's buddy?"

kerouac threw me the accusatory mindfucking stare again.

"i'm too old to resent anybody -- you diabolical professor, you."

he smiled faintly.

"but even if i weren't too old, and even if this were a few years back, i could

bear no grudge against any man."

joe

##########################################################################

it no longer makes me cry and die and tear myself to see her go because

everything goes away from me like that now - girls, visions, anything, just in

the same way and forever and i accept lostness forever.

everything belongs to me because i am poor.

- jk:voc

##########################################################################

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:41:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: fucked up on rugs

Two thoughts on the drugs line...

First, Jazz players were often associated with drug lifestyle (just as there

is little doubt that the Smashing Pumpkins use heroin...and don't get me

wrong, MELLON COLLIE is fabulous) and just as kids today emulate the fucked

up Seattle grunge rockers, so too did the Beats want to emulate certain

aspects of the jazz lifestyle.

Second, Tangier (the literary capital of the 50s, just as Paris was for the

Lost Generation) at the time was like Amsterdam today--drugs were widely

available and legal and "everyone was doing it"--again, lifestyle (visit

Amsterdam and you'll see what I mean). Indeed, the Beats esp. Burroughs came

to Tangier precisely to get drugs (and for the relaxed attitude toward

homosexuality).

Though yes, I think they did drugs to "go go go" and expand consciousness,

it seems to me that drugs were very much a part of who the Beats *were.*

e.g., Paul Bowles liked to write while stoned on majoun (sp?) and the death

chapters of SHELTERING SHY are a drug-induced masterwork--and could he have

written it without drugs? The same goes for NAKED LUNCH--a sober WSB just

couldn't have written it. I don't think this in any way derides the Beats,

But to look at Beat writing without the context of drugs (incl. alcohol) and

the drug lifestyle is like studying the Lost Generation and ignoring the

consequences of WWI, or misunderstanding who "the man" is with Lou Reed.

or am I way off? Is there any literature on the topic?

Chris Teggatz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:41:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: John Sutcliffe

Yes, Sutcliffe has his own novel for sale--I purchased an autographed copy.

Unfortunately I can't find it in my bookcase, but if memory serves correct,

it's called "The Secret Pilgrim." It was my reading during the long flight

home from Tangier, and it wasn't very good. I got the impression that

Sutcliffe was just doing the fashionable thing at the time--i.e., all the

expats in Tangier were writing.

Chris Teggatz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:41:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>

Subject: Paul Bowles

Please forgive me if I'm treading on old gound, but do you consider Bowles I

Beat? An atypical Beat I admit--an especially atypical Beat in terms of

style--but where else can you place him? Particularly in terms of lifestyle,

he is Beat all the way, and he certainly can't be lumped together with his

other American contemporaries like Salinger and Cheever.

I make a point of reading Bowles's LET IT COME DOWN once a year, and every

time it thrills me.

Chris Teggatz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:57:58 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Cassady and the Grateful Dead

This came from another list - thought you would all enjoy this.

>>

>> The following is Cassady rapping with the Dead at the Straight

>> Theatre, 7/67. It's from a flexi-disk that came with the book (I

>> think) "Dead Days- A Social History of the Grateful Dead" by Hank

>> Harrison (again, I don't have it with me so I'm not sure.)

>>

>> Some of it I can't understand, he mumbles a lot of words and

>> creates a few of his own I think. The Dead are playing what sounds

>> like the beginning of Lovelight over and over with Neil throwing in

>> a few ummp's and haaaarrr's occaisionally, just weird sounds and

>> a lot breathing into the mic. Except for when he stops to let the

>> band play he is speaking as if he's reading it all from a book; he

>> sounds a little bit like an unpretentious Jim Morrison.

>>

>> (Jerry intros Neil)

>> Neil Cassady. Neil cassady.

>>

>> (Neil)

>> I got the penguin right here in my pocket <loud drums and

>> guitars/Neil mumbling something> -four fingers, ya know, it's just

>> the claw and me, three inches, bigger than- and

>> I said, of course, in the Metro, as they, but it hides my thumb and

>> lso reveals my Greek torso, huh... At 49th, I said, Spence?

>> haven't seen him since 51st he said move two, 49th, huh. Nope, move

>> to 51st. <more mumbles/band begins playing> The waiter in 56th beat

>> the 6 seeds he had, seed law in marijuana, the only ratting I ever

>> did... And now marijuana, oooo! I was saying in the- ya alright in

>> there, (taps on the mic) on the wall, Mr Cassady? I only got twenty

>> years on ya... I knew I shoulda worn more paisley. I double-crossed

>> him- no, the son of the mAN is about to bounce the podiUM. Rimsby

>> was impressed in a short drive, huh, I said I'm serious about

>> America DeMarco, Greg, at the, uh, last year, ya know, we arrived

>> it from time. <Lovelight-ish jam> Double-parkin' winamarker(?)

>> speeder and derns(?) six days it was finally she grabbed the, of

>> course, Vics vapor rub, it's in the vaseline, that's what ended it.

>> My first child, forty, uh, two then, Charlie Valensia, on tempo(?)

>> where we had an acid test, but thirteenfifty, his father, half

>> Mexican half Irish like Anthony Quinn, so he loved me, ya know,

>> that was a triumph-pf-of us, the only tree-way I ever had,

>> Kerouac's not queer, but my present wife, the fourth, and he, it

>> was just, NewYear's Eve, sort of, uh, we was always looking for a

>> colored girl, Carol Ashty(?), finally found her, that was the last

>> time I committed suicide, I knew toward the fourth sign, across the

>> Hudson, get across this looong Missooouri that preacher said

>> <mumble> or I didn't see it, move ooon. Ummm, ha-h-haa (to

>> Lovelight.) -menopausal, don't ask me how, twenty years I fell ten

>> on the railroad and ten more for, uh, and, uh, I'll be dead a

>> thousand years see, so, if I don't do right now, right in it- Reb

>> Barker the same acid test then, use to be Al Collins all fat and

>> sassy, you know, but he was all skinny and dressed in a, uh, you

>> can work yourself inta anything, how'd he get outta it? Six days,

>> uh, six glasses a day pretty soon your system demands it thousand

>> days Orabindo(?) says you've had it old joe alcoholic, you know, we

>> used to drink together, but he went drinking. <mumbling> (music is

>> turned up a bit/Neil still mumbling random words) -a German

>> pornograpghy... Uummmbbuuuyyyyyy... He stay offer thou wake to

>> wake(?,) oh, the name of that Christ don't call on that I said

>> that's another, huh, then the next day November 1st is all souls,

>> all saints. <music> Huhuhu. <skat-singing> He did nothin' I did

>> nothin', and finally there's nothin', there wudn't nothin' he

>> wouldn't do for me and nothin' I wouldn't do for him but we sat

>> around all time doin' nothin'! Twentymilesanhourthe great four

>> wheel drift he, uh, adjusting his goggles, ya know, everybody in

>> the audience with their right foot but I can't heel and toe I'm

>> double left, huh, Dooom-dee-dee-umm, dee-

>>

>> It's all about 5 minutes, but really funny; immpossible to

>> reproduce the rhythm in his voice, the nuances.

>>

>> Brian

>>

>

****************************************************************************

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150 (please note new code takes effect January 20, 1996)

E-Mail: nweir-w@nwu.edu

Life is six-to-five against

****************************************************************************

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:44:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: JK/Beat recordings Discography

My friend, Stephen Ronan, is in the very final stages of publishing what

should be the definitive discography of recordings by Beat writers. It will

be titled "Discs of the Gone World, An Annotated Discography oif the Beat

Generation (With a Checklist of Unreleased Recordings).

Stephen (who is not online) describes it: "Available for the first time

anywhere a comprehensive guide to the jazz poetry, literary arts and humor of

the Beats and thier fellow travelers. From the most subterranean ephemera to

the major reissue boxes of the nineties, all pertinent is examined and

described in detail. Features: All individual releases on LP, cassette, & CD

of Beat audio culture, a compilation of unreleased tapes explaining what they

include, and a seperate listing of all Beat homage releases."

It will be priced at $20 available from:

(ask for more info or make checks payable to Stephen Ronan and add a buck or

two for postage and tell him I sent ya!)

Beat Books

P. O. Box 5813

Berkeley, CA 94705

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this posting, but with all the discussion

about recordings and confusion, I thought this would be a service to many on

the list.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:00:10 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: New NL CD

For those of you who have asked, the new Naked Lunch CD published

by TimeWarner IS READ BY WSB.

It is three hours long, and although it isn't NL word for word

from any particular edition, it is great.

Regards

Luke

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:16:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: fucked up on rugs

In a message dated 96-02-16 11:49:24 EST, you write:

>Second, Tangier (the literary capital of the 50s, just as Paris was for the

>Lost Generation) at the time was like Amsterdam today--drugs were widely

>a

I've read the Michelle Green 'Dream at the End of the World' and 'Joujoka

Rolling Stone', but the convergence of WSB, m/M Bowles, Ansen & Chester does

not really constitute a "Literary Capital". Were there others of note?

<<I'm with you in Rockland>>

Dan Lauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:43:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject: beats exhibit

just a note: there's a beat exhibit going on at the whitney museum in NYC.

i don't know the exact dates it's running. it's also traveling around the

country.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:09:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: In THEIR humble opinion

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960214145630.6916A-100000@sleepy> from "L.Kelly"

at Feb 14, 96 03:14:15 pm

Hello,all...

Just picked myself up a copy of John Clellon Holmes'

'Displaced Person' at a used bookstore in Portland,Maine,and

just HAD to tell someone!

With that said,I had a question or two...

1.Hemingway-

Anyone know if he had particular opinions of the beat writers/writings?

2.Kerouac-

Did Jack have any opinions on the writings of J.D.Salinger?

I truly enjoy the discussions on this list.

Best,

Carl Biancucci

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:45:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beats exhibit

The Beat exhibit at the Whitney in NYC is over now. It will open in

Minneapolis again in late spring.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:56:45 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mat Awad <mawad01@MAIL.ORION.ORG>

Subject: dumb maggie?

Just a quick question for all you learned folks. In *Maggie Cassidy*, why

she does not attend Lowell High with Jack. Why not? Pauline says

something to the effect that she isn't smart enough, but I'm not sure

MC2 should be the final authority on this one. Any info?

OK, I lied, two questions. The OED/Freudian thing in *Dr. Sax*. How much

do you think it was intended and how much do you think it was just

happenstance? Just to let my opinion be known, a friend of mine said that

if JK truly meant for it to be that Oedipal it would have taken him 30

years to write. I agree.

Mat

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:07:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Clement Czaja <czaja@K12.SSDS.COM>

Anyone out there on the winds of the Noosphere know exactly where in

*The Brothers Karamazov* the saintly monk, Father Sosima, tells a

troubled woman: "I'm sorry, all I can say is that active love is a harsh

and dreadful thing, but it is the only answer." and leaves it at that?

I still remember where I was when I read that line (Duane Library on Rose

Hill in the Bronx) but I am going blind trying to find it again there in

the midst of so many millions of wonderful existential lines.

Lamont C.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:19:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Clement Czaja <czaja@K12.SSDS.COM>

Subject: DISREGARD TEST

This is a test only; no need to respond.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:58:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

Comments: cc: cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960215123649.21502B-100000@axis.mtholyoke.edu>

from "Chanda J Pearmon" at Feb 15, 96 12:38:17 pm

Chanda J. Pearmon writes:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Tony Trigilio wrote:

>> *Journals, Mid-Fifties: 1954-1958*. I saw him read from the book here

>> in Boston, and by my observation he was gracious and energetic. Hope

>

> wow, can you expand any on the reading? Journals, mid-fifties... is what

> first got me into the beat culture

I guess one of the things I liked most about the reading was how

Ginsberg carefully maneuvered it away from a worshipful gathering and

toward an evening focused also on the poetic and historical material in

the journals. When I say "worshipful gathering," I think right now of

Peter McGahey's recent cautions on the list about the dangers of

biographical over-emphasis. Don't get me wrong, the reading was

sprinkled with great anecdotes, and Ginsberg's asides between readings

of excerpts from the journal were excellent; the details of his

biography are rich and instructive--especially more so now, as the 90s

begin to look more like the 50s than the 80s ever did (what did

Eisenhower say? "Things are more like they are now than they ever were

before").

But with the sheer biographical heft of the journals, the reading had the

potential to lapse into just a bull session--preaching anecdotes only to

the converted. The reading offered both: Ginsberg read from journal

entries that described source material from the period, all of which

were useful in contextualizing his early work; he read from dream

transcriptions that were hilarious, and that helped illuminate his

composition process; and he read from poem drafts and unpublished works

in the journals, drafts that he revised from the printed text as he

read.

The reading of the drafts and unpublished works helped bring to life his

past remarks on using the speech-thought unit to create stanzas within

line- units; his effort to base poetic form more on ear, voice, and

breath than on line. I'm sure one could get this effect from any

reading he performs, yet I didn't expect a reading from journals to go

quite this way. In all, the reading was politically charged,

instructive, and hilarious. I wish more of us would emphasize

Ginsberg's sense of humor/camp, because more often than not he's using

humor/camp for serious social ends (first thing that comes to mind right

now is "Kral Majales" and the photos of the 1965 Czech May Day parade).

Afterwards, he took questions from the standing-room crowd. Some of the

questions were insightful, and others seemed like questions he must have

heard hundreds of times over the years. He treated almost all questions

carefully and graciously, as if each constituted the first time he had

been asked.

You said these journals first got you into the beats. Is there one

aspect of the journals you liked best/liked least? Any one anecdote,

dream transcription, or poem that moved you above all else in the book?

Best,

Tony

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:33:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re; beats exhibit

Who is in charge of the exhibit and how can I find out a schedule?

Paul

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:28:07 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

>Tell us more about the hip-hop/jazzed backed kerouac you mention above. Is

>iyt new?

There's a band called United Future Organisation which had a track of K

talking over hip hop/jazz backing. From what I can remember the spoken word

piece is in the Kerouac CD box.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:49:41 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beats exhibit

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:43:23 -0500 from

<BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

On Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:43:23 -0500 Meredith Blackmann said:

>just a note: there's a beat exhibit going on at the whitney museum in NYC.

> i don't know the exact dates it's running. it's also traveling around the

>country.

Sorry Beat exhibit closed earlier this month at Whitney. It's on the road. Th

ose in DC area may also want to catch the Rebels and Poets show which, despite

some censorship, I hear is a good show.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:11:59 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

>>Tell us more about the hip-hop/jazzed backed kerouac you mention above. Is

>>iyt new?

>

>There's a band called United Future Organisation which had a track of K

>talking over hip hop/jazz backing. From what I can remember the spoken word

>piece is in the Kerouac CD box.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Duncan Gray

>Stored Grain Research Laboratory

>CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

>Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the Info.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:59:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Kerouac`s sound

Recently listened again to the three CD, repackaged set of K`s recordings,

released by Rhino a few years ago. I highly recommend these recordings,

which enhance so much the experience of reading Kerouac because his resonant

voice, adroit breath pauses, panoply of accents and consonontal dexterity

(even when seemingly blitzed!) really bring to life the meaning of some of

the more obscure parts of his work. In particular, the recordings reveal the

full range of his dark humour, and compassion. I understand Steve Ronan did

a lot of the work to put this package together, and, along with the other

planners of this project, deserves the undying thanks of all Kerouac

enthusiasts. As an index of what to expect(for those who don`t know the

recordings), consider that the liner notes indicate that Michael McClure

reports that, even though he knew the recordings (from when they first came

out), after listening to them on these (pristine-sounding) CD`s in question

while driving his car, he became so overwhelmed by emotion listening to his

old friend in his prime that he had to pull over to the side of the road...

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:55:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: jk recordings

There seems to be some interest in this hip-hop recording. I would also

recommend a 1993 CD of William Burroughs reading his work to music. It is

called "Spare Ass Annie and other Tales" and includes 15 selections. Most

of the music is by The Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy and includes some

jazz, reggae, hip-hop, etc. It is put out by Island Red Label of Island

Records.

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:31:54 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: beats exhibit

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96021913514708@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Greetings, All-

I have been getting bounce messgages after having sent to the BEAT-L

address. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Michael Bertsch

VP Academic Affairs

VOU, Inc.

Athena University

http://www.athena.edu

On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Bill Gargan wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:43:23 -0500 Meredith Blackmann said:

> >just a note: there's a beat exhibit going on at the whitney museum in NYC.

> > i don't know the exact dates it's running. it's also traveling around the

> >country.

>

> Sorry Beat exhibit closed earlier this month at Whitney. It's on the road. T

h

> ose in DC area may also want to catch the Rebels and Poets show which, despite

> some censorship, I hear is a good show.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:00:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac's Injury

"Two weeks before his nineteenth birthday in March 1941, after he had

recuperated FROM A BROKEN LEG THE PREVIOUS FALL WHEN HE WAS TACKLED DURING

HIS SECOND FRESHAMN FOOTBALL GAME AT COLUMBIA, Kerouac began to write a

series of postcards to SEbastian Sampas at Emerson College in Boston. Of

all his Lowell friends, Jack felt a special affinity with Sebastian, remembering

in Vanity of Dulouz that Sebastian 'was a great kid, knightlike, i.e.,

noble, a poet, goodlooking, crazy, sweet, sad, everything a man should

want as a friend.'"

Ann Charters _Jack Kerouac: Selected Letters_

Also to mention are the fact that this Injury no doubt had everything to

do with his career as a writer. During this period is when he began to

read all the books he would need and as well to begin writing (altho he

always liked to write). THIS INJURY DID NOT END HIS CAREER HOWEVER, as he

himself explains very clearly in Vanity of Dulouz it was just a crazy

dream he had that did it (he was on the team--not playing when he did it!)

Lastly it is good to mention that Sebastian Sampas no doubt had a big part

to do with his life, infact the whole family did!! (Wifey, estate, etc.)

I would suggest everyone who has read a lot of Jack's books and want more

to read this book. It is like a real life book about him writen by himself.

It is composed of hundreds of letters to Allen Ginsberg, Neal Cassidy,

Carl Solomon, Editors, Memere, John Clellon Holmes, William Burroughs,

and on and on and on. BUY IT, READ IT. I SOLD CD'S TO GET IT!!

NpH

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:36:39 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: jk recordings

>There seems to be some interest in this hip-hop recording. I would also

>recommend a 1993 CD of William Burroughs reading his work to music. It is

>called "Spare Ass Annie and other Tales" and includes 15 selections. Most

>of the music is by The Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy and includes some

>jazz, reggae, hip-hop, etc. It is put out by Island Red Label of Island

>Records.

>

>Bill Kiriazis

I'd echo that 100% - it's a great CD. Hell, I liked it so much I recently

recited "Words of advice for young people" at a poetry reading. Went down OK

I think...

Alan

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:54:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Injury

In-Reply-To: <01I1EXM7LPT2003KOV@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Nicholas Herren wrote:

> Ann Charters _Jack Kerouac: Selected Letters_

> It is composed of hundreds of letters to Allen Ginsberg, Neal Cassidy,

> Carl Solomon, Editors, Memere, John Clellon Holmes, William Burroughs,

> and on and on and on. BUY IT, READ IT. I SOLD CD'S TO GET IT!!

Or just go check it out at the library like I did. Nicholas is right

though. These letters provide a wealth of information, and insight into

how Kerouac saw himself, and his writing. I have some selected quotes

from the letters on my web page...under quotes..then kerouac..

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:54:35 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Injury

Thanks for bringing up the subject of the recently published book of

Kerouac's letters.

I wanted to say, and this gives me the perfect lead in, that last night I

saw the book in paperback.

So now it is available in paperback. Cost $15.95.

I was unstingy enough and unpatient enough to buy the hardbound, but for

those of you who waited it is available now in paperback.

There you go.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:18:18 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: test

test

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:12:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Kerouac's Birthday

Comments: To: brooklyn@netcom.com, schorr@world.com, event@globe.com,

noweek@globe.com, living@globe.com, klmcomm@aol.com,

heraledit@delphi.com, 71632.63@compuserve.com, mnews@world.std.com,

general@the-tec.mit.edu, radio@csps.com, news@baywindows.com,

wbcn104fm@aol.com, wbrs@binah.cc.brandeis.com

LOWELL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S BIRTHDAY

LOWELL, MA. Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! will celebrate the birthday of

American author Jack Kerouac with events in Lowell, MA and Nashua, NH on

March 9 and 10, 1996..

<<Saturday, 9 March 1996>>

4:00 PM Commemorative Reading at Kerouac Park (Corner of Bridge and French

Streets, Lowell, MA) Bring your favorite passage and join in.

6:00 PM "Poems of the Night" a guided tour of Kerouac sites along the

Merrimack River. Tour begins at the Pawtuckeville MacDonald's Restaurant,

corner of Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Bring your copy of Dr. Sax.

>>Sunday, 10 March 1996>>

2:00-4:00 PM "The Nashua Connection" Steve Edington reads from his work

in progress on Kerouac's literary and biographical association with

Nashua, NH. Barnes and Noble Bookstore, Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua,

NH.

Press Release Attached.

For more information call 508-458-1721, or email mhemenway@igc.apc.org.

Thanks,

Mark Hemenway

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853

PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PRESS CONTACT: Mark Hemenway (508)475-9090 or

(508)458-1721

PUBLIC INQUIRIES: (508)458-1721

LOWELL EVENTS TO CELEBRATE JACK KEROUAC BIRTHDAY

LOWELL, MA. Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! will celebrate the birthday of

American author Jack Kerouac with events in Lowell, MA and Nashua, NH on March

9 and 10, 1996.. The celebration will begin with an informal commemorative

reading of his work at 4:00 PM, Saturday, March 9, 1996 at Kerouac Park on the

corner of Bridge and French Streets in Lowell, MA. A guided tour of Kerouac

sites along the Merrimack River will begin at 6:00 PM from the Pawtuckeville

MacDonald's Restaurant on the corner of Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Both

events will include readings of Kerouac's work with an emphasis on his Lowell

novel, Dr. Sax. Participants should bring copies of their favorite passages to

read aloud.

On Sunday, 10 March, from 2:00 to 4:00 PM at the Barnes & Noble Bookstore,

Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua, NH, Steve Edington will read from his work in

progress on the history of the Kerouac family in Nashua,

Jack Kerouac Birthday Events are summarized as follows:

Saturday, 9 March 1996

4:00 PM Commemorative Reading at Kerouac Park (Corner of Bridge and French

Streets, Lowell, MA) Bring your favorite passage and join in.

6:00 PM "Poems of the Night" a guided tour of Kerouac sites along the Merrimack

River. Tour begins at the Pawtuckeville MacDonald's Restaurant, corner of

Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Bring your copy of Dr. Sax.

Sunday, 10 March 1996

2:00-4:00 PM "The Nashua Connection" Steve Edington reads from his work in

progress on Kerouac's literary and biographical association with Nashua, NH.

Barnes and Noble Bookstore, Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua, NH.

Jack Kerouac was born on March 12, 1922 in Lowell, Massachusetts to a

French-Canadian Catholic family. A prolific poet and novelist, he chronicled

his childhood years in Lowell, and the adventures and experiences of

contemporaries as they traveled throughout he US and the world. On the Road,

published in 1957, brought him immediate fame , and Kerouac was acclaimed the

voice of the Beat Generation. The city of Lowell and his experiences growing up

in the Franco-American community here are central to Jack Kerouac's art and

writings. Five of his 11 novels are set in Lowell, and the city is mentioned in

all of his books. Jack Kerouac remains one of the most influential and

inspirational of American writers.These novels are read and appreciated

throughout the world.

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., a non-profit corporation, produces the Annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival held each October in Lowell, MA. Our

mission is to encourage the study and enjoyment of Jack Kerouac's art by

sharing the Lowell experience with visitors and by educating local residents

about the influence of Jack Kerouac on modern American culture and literature.

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will be held October 1996.

Planning for this year's festival has already begun. The Festival committee

meets the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 PM in the Pollard Memorial

Library in Lowell. We need lots of help. Membership is open to anyone

interested in working to celebrate the joyful spirit of Jack Kerouac. For

information on membership, activities and meeting dates, write Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853, call 508-458-1721, or email

mhemenway@igc.apc.org.

***END***

Prepared 19 February 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:48:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Kerouac Birthday

Comments: To: brooklyn@netcom.com, schorr@world.std.com, event@globe.com,

noweek@globe.com, living@globe.com, klmcomm@aol.com,

heraldedit@delphi.com, 71632.63@compuserve.com, mnews@world.std.com,

radio@csps.com, news@baywindows.com, wbcn104fm@aol.com

LOWELL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S BIRTHDAY

LOWELL, MA. Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! will celebrate the birthday of

American author Jack Kerouac with events in Lowell, MA and Nashua, NH on

March 9 and 10, 1996..

<<Saturday, 9 March 1996>>

4:00 PM Commemorative Reading at Kerouac Park (Corner of Bridge and French

Streets, Lowell, MA) Bring your favorite passage and join in.

6:00 PM "Poems of the Night" a guided tour of Kerouac sites along the

Merrimack River. Tour begins at the Pawtuckeville MacDonald's Restaurant,

corner of Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Bring your copy of Dr. Sax.

>>Sunday, 10 March 1996>>

2:00-4:00 PM "The Nashua Connection" Steve Edington reads from his work

in progress on Kerouac's literary and biographical association with

Nashua, NH. Barnes and Noble Bookstore, Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua,

NH.

Press Release Attached.

For more information call 508-458-1721, or email mhemenway@igc.apc.org.

Thanks,

Mark Hemenway

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, IncLowell Celebrates Kerouac!

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853

PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PRESS CONTACT: Mark Hemenway (508)475-9090 or

(508)458-1721

PUBLIC INQUIRIES: (508)458-1721

LOWELL EVENTS TO CELEBRATE JACK KEROUAC BIRTHDAY

LOWELL, MA. Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! will celebrate the birthday of

American author Jack Kerouac with events in Lowell, MA and Nashua, NH on March

9 and 10, 1996.. The celebration will begin with an informal commemorative

reading of his work at 4:00 PM, Saturday, March 9, 1996 at Kerouac Park on the

corner of Bridge and French Streets in Lowell, MA. A guided tour of Kerouac

sites along the Merrimack River will begin at 6:00 PM from the Pawtuckeville

MacDonald's Restaurant on the corner of Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Both

events will include readings of Kerouac's work with an emphasis on his Lowell

novel, Dr. Sax. Participants should bring copies of their favorite passages to

read aloud.

On Sunday, 10 March, from 2:00 to 4:00 PM at the Barnes & Noble Bookstore,

Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua, NH, Steve Edington will read from his work in

progress on the history of the Kerouac family in Nashua,

Jack Kerouac Birthday Events are summarized as follows:

Saturday, 9 March 1996

4:00 PM Commemorative Reading at Kerouac Park (Corner of Bridge and French

Streets, Lowell, MA) Bring your favorite passage and join in.

6:00 PM "Poems of the Night" a guided tour of Kerouac sites along the Merrimack

River. Tour begins at the Pawtuckeville MacDonald's Restaurant, corner of

Mammoth Road and VFW Highway. Bring your copy of Dr. Sax.

Sunday, 10 March 1996

2:00-4:00 PM "The Nashua Connection" Steve Edington reads from his work in

progress on Kerouac's literary and biographical association with Nashua, NH.

Barnes and Noble Bookstore, Daniel Webster Highway, Nashua, NH.

Jack Kerouac was born on March 12, 1922 in Lowell, Massachusetts to a

French-Canadian Catholic family. A prolific poet and novelist, he chronicled

his childhood years in Lowell, and the adventures and experiences of

contemporaries as they traveled throughout he US and the world. On the Road,

published in 1957, brought him immediate fame , and Kerouac was acclaimed the

voice of the Beat Generation. The city of Lowell and his experiences growing up

in the Franco-American community here are central to Jack Kerouac's art and

writings. Five of his 11 novels are set in Lowell, and the city is mentioned in

all of his books. Jack Kerouac remains one of the most influential and

inspirational of American writers.These novels are read and appreciated

throughout the world.

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., a non-profit corporation, produces the Annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival held each October in Lowell, MA. Our

mission is to encourage the study and enjoyment of Jack Kerouac's art by

sharing the Lowell experience with visitors and by educating local residents

about the influence of Jack Kerouac on modern American culture and literature.

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will be held October 1996.

Planning for this year's festival has already begun. The Festival committee

meets the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 PM in the Pollard Memorial

Library in Lowell. We need lots of help. Membership is open to anyone

interested in working to celebrate the joyful spirit of Jack Kerouac. For

information on membership, activities and meeting dates, write Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853, call 508-458-1721, or email

mhemenway@igc.apc.org.

***END***

Prepared 19 February 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:08:03 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: Re: Kerouac...an obnoxious fellow?

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.uucp>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960213142555.96138A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

Hi folks,

I`m new to the list (as I am to all this computer and internet stuff) and

I`m from Germany, so please forgive me for having a bad English.

Well, since I admire Kerouac very much I`m kind of annoyed that he was an

asshole. Could it be that he became like this very late in his life

because he could not bear his succes and his being looked upon an

established writer by the "high society"?

Mit freundlichem Gruss (means something like Sincerely)

Moritz Rossbach

eMail moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

> I seem to remember reading something Ann Charters wrote about visiting

> Kerouacvery late in his life and how he kept insuating that he wanted to

> have sex with her before she left. (please forgive me if this is wrong.

> I read a lot of stuff and I could have made a mistake). Descriptions of

> telephone conversations he had with Carolyn Cassidy later on also point

> to his being a general asshole. But man, his writing more than

> compensates for a poor personality!

> Also...does anyone know where I can find a written version of Kerouac's

> "origins of bop" essay. I've heard his reading of it and would really

> love to have a transcription.

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------

> I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

> -------------------------------------------------------------

> Noah Bergman

> x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

> Box 730 St. FXU

> Antigonish, Nova Scotia

> B2G 2X1

> (902) 867-2517

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:55:09 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Leo Jilk <leo.august.jilk@SPARKY.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kerouac...an obnoxious fellow?

>Hi folks,

>I`m new to the list (as I am to all this computer and internet stuff) and

>I`m from Germany, so please forgive me for having a bad English.

>Well, since I admire Kerouac very much I`m kind of annoyed that he was an

>asshole. Could it be that he became like this very late in his life

>because he could not bear his succes and his being looked upon an

>established writer by the "high society"?

Personally, I say Kerouac was what he was. We should admire him for his

writing and his intellingence, his insight. I have heard he was

conservative, he was always bothering Ginsberg about his being a Jew. Some

of the reputation he has as an asswhole is no doubt due to his drinking,

his inability to handle fame.

Other great writers have also had flaws in their personality.

Faulkner, for example has always been criticized for his racism, use of the

word "nigger" is his books. College students would drive dy his house and

yell "Hey Faulkner. Say something!" He was invariably drunk and would

urinate in front of them. But writers are also people; influenced by their

upbringing, their religion, experiences.

--LJ

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so

certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

--Bertrand Russel

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."

--Douglas Adams

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:20:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

>> Kerouac, No; Ginsberg, Yes, and struggling.

>

>how is Ginsberg struggling?

As far as I know he's been recovering from some non-serious

physical ailments here recently.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:20:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Burroughs elsewhere in music

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

I've also heard that he covered an R.E.M. tune-- Star Me Kitten,

for an episode of The X Files.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:32:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs-Priest

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>In tune with all the priest stuff -

>

>Wasn't Bill's character in _Drugstore Cowboy_ a junkie priest?

Yes, ex-junkie.. but that's knit-picking.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:58:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs-Priest (fwd)

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Anyone catch Bill's appearance in Van Sant's Even Cowgirls Get the Blues,

>or the aids awareness movie 'And the Band Played On', both fairly recent

>films.........

He had a what? 30 sec appearance in Even Cowgirls? I never did get to

finish The Band though, I was watching it with a queer friend of mine that

was so in a knot about the movie we had to turn it off to shut him up...

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:58:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: WSB Roswell Opera

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Anyone heard more details about the project Bill was involved with

>concerning the Roswell 47 UFO crash? Apparently, according to Miles biog

>it was to be an opera. I know that Bill was involved with the Black Rider

>project with, I think, the same people who were working on this Roswell

>opera......There is mentioned in Miles a lot of stuff that Bill was

>working on around 91/92 what ever became of this?

Apparently the idea is still in the works, but as far as I know there's

nothing

in the way of completion.

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:00:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

>this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

>chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

>discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

>with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

>some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

>can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

I believe this is the eleventh hundred time I've seen this question come

up and due to the fact that I was one of the primary advocators of the

GenX discussion when it was in full bloom I figured it necessary for me

to start up a listserv for this and other topics that I've had elsewhere

that

others have felt would do better elsewhere.

If there is anyone interested in a listserv committed to avant-garde

literature, film, drama, and art in general.. the philosophies behind them

and where they are taking us in the future, please contact me personally.

It isn't up and running yet, but it would be nice to see who is even

possibly

interested in this from the list.

Oh, and postmodern and/or GenX the list will consider to be avant-garde.

[smile]

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:04:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and

poetry

>> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or

are

>> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by

hip-hop

>> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

>there's box set....called "the beat generation"

>check out a good music store....i've seen it everywhere.

I just acquired the Kerouac box set a few days ago. The second CD is a

collection of hakius w/ a jazz back-up. I've always had trouble writing and

listening to someone else read.. really fucks w/ the psyche, but for those

of

you who are looking for some excellent music just to listen to, this entire

CD is a lot more than simple readings, the music is very very good, at least

a good accompaniment.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:04:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What

gives?

>

>Louis Proyect

Consider this a list phase. [smile]

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:10:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: wsb and black rider

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>the black rider is an album by tom waits and burroughs appears on a couple

of

>tracks, they're very good.If waits is doing the roswell opera it should

prove

>interesting.Waits' earlier work is influenced by the beats and well worth

>checking out esp. closing time, the heart of saturday night and blue

valentine.

Wait's appears twice on the Beat Generation box set.

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:10:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>What is the fascination with style? What is the fascination with

>rock-and-roll, MTV, poetry readings that seem to be set up for a Gap

>commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

>seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

>doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

>

>So, sorry to appear rude, censorious or insensitive. I am simply putting

>questions forward in my own blunt style.

>

>

>Louis Proyect

Louis, I'd absolutely love to answer your question in detail, being that as

a writer influenced by these trends, a "researcher" interested in the

details,

and a member of the class myself, I've been following these trends and

have come up with some theories on my own. Unfortunately this isn't

the proper place to do so. If you are interested you can contact me

personally

w/ this or-- a better idea-- wait until I get my ass in gear and get the

listserv up

and running then we can all trash my generation and discuss how dissimilar

they are to the Beats and how like we are to the Lost generation.

...Critter (Critter@mail.serve.com)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:16:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: jk recordings (fwd)

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Find yourself some real bohemians and they are just as intellectual as the

>best of the 50's and 60's. I'd wager to say that the intellectuals of

>today are much more aware than their predecessors, they have to be.

Most of the 'bohemians' that I associate w/ [love kicking aroud that word

like that] are indeed very much part of the conscience, either globally,

artistically, economically, intellectually, politically, or what have you.

It's

a necessity to be able to prove yourself when you are viewed as radical

or bohemian. The slam on the frat boys and girls was valid. You ask them

the purpose behind their nose ring and they'll have no answer for you. If

you ask the same of a true 'bohemian' I can guarantee you'll receive a

philosophy that sounds something like a Dharmic Sadism.

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:16:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: the list

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Will all of you stop being so fucking sensitive. No, don't go away just

>because an old buzzard like myself badmouths Gap commercials.

>

>Louis Proyect

I'm sorry.. normally it annoys me when people respond back w/ a

message that says nothing, and I'll admit, this reply said little more

than "Right On!" Man, I couldn't help but laugh when I read this!

Welcome on, Louis! [smile]

...Critter

of X

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:21:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

>I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

>this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

>chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

>discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

>with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

>some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

>can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

I believe this is the eleventh hundred time I've seen this question come

up and due to the fact that I was one of the primary advocators of the

GenX discussion when it was in full bloom I figured it necessary for me

to start up a listserv for this and other topics that I've had elsewhere

that

others have felt would do better elsewhere.

If there is anyone interested in a listserv committed to avant-garde

literature, film, drama, and art in general.. the philosophies behind them

and where they are taking us in the future, please contact me personally.

It isn't up and running yet, but it would be nice to see who is even

possibly

interested in this from the list.

Oh, and postmodern and/or GenX the list will consider to be avant-garde.

[smile]

...Critter

I would be interested in such a list. Is the individual asking this

question the owner of the beat list? Would this proposed list allow

discussion of any post beat writings? How about beat contemporaries

like Philip K. Dick and Jim Thompson or is that too much of a reach?

What kind of list would a young Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, et. al. use?

How about a list for creative writers, rather than scholars and fans.

"Make it new."

-Ezra Pound, I think

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:07:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Books

In a message dated 96-02-15 13:00:57 EST, you write:

>How many people out there have read any books by the Beats besides On the

>Road or Naked Lunch?

>

>

I haven't but that doesn't mean that I won't, I just got into the Beats, so I

believe that I will be reading much more of the books by the Beats

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:07:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

In a message dated 96-02-15 13:10:12 EST, you write:

>"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

>

>

I could believe it. They may seem dull to strangers and people who weren't

close to them, but I also agree, I think burroughs would make the best

grandfather.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:08:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: fucked up on rugs

In a message dated 96-02-16 11:49:24 EST, you write:

>The same goes for NAKED LUNCH--a sober WSB just

>couldn't have written it.

I remember seeing something on bravo (TVstation) about burroughs where he

said that if it weren't for drugs, Naked Lunch would never been written.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:08:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beats exhibit

In a message dated 96-02-17 16:20:46 EST, you write:

>The Beat exhibit at the Whitney in NYC is over now. It will open in

>Minneapolis again in late spring.

>

>Howard Park

>

>

Any speciffic info? dates? where in Mpls?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:01:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: The Avant-Liste

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

I forgot to list my address, which would be helpful I suppose.

Critter: (Critter@mail.serve.com)

>I would be interested in such a list. Is the individual asking this

>question the owner of the beat list?

No.

>Would this proposed list allow

>discussion of any post beat writings? How about beat contemporaries

>like Philip K. Dick and Jim Thompson or is that too much of a reach?

The proposed list (which is a wonderful way to put it) is setting out

mainly to find the roots of avant-garde in art and attempt to follow the

patterns into the "next movement." While the form will be fairly open

in the discussion of avant-garde art, the focus will primarily be upon

movements or artists which can be considered revolutionary or

anti-artists. Dadaism, Pop Art, Sub-Pop, Postmodernism, Beat, et al.

>What kind of list would a young Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, et. al. use?

Well, I can say that anyone interested in working on their own ideas

and passing them around the table w/ others that are interested in

breaking up the ground on which the arts stand upon will find a sure

place for them to do so. If your young JK or AG sees that bitter stagnation

rising up again in that which we call art, then hopefully this proposed

list will be the place to do such a thing.

>How about a list for creative writers, rather than scholars and fans.

I'll tell ya that first off I'd like to include the practice in w/ the

theory. I appreciate

this list that much more when I get to read a clip from the article or the

book

which the person is talking about which I may not have read. Not only does

it

clue me into their meaning, but also it entertains much more than a

collection of

anti-GenX replys. If the sharing starts to flood the list with too much

material then

some other means will have to be met. At this time I see the sharing being

done for a purpose. If someone wrote a catchy little ditty that they think

would

make a cute love song, then it has no place on the list. If it meets with

the ideas

of avant-garde and what not, then it does have a place in the list.

> "Make it new."

> -Ezra Pound, I think

I hope that was clear enough, I tend to babble.

...Critter (Critter@mail.serve.com)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:55:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <960221180748_428349627@emout06.mail.aol.com>

On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Carl Luoma wrote:

> In a message dated 96-02-15 13:10:12 EST, you write:

>

> >"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

> >

> >

>

> I could believe it. They may seem dull to strangers and people who weren't

> close to them, but I also agree, I think burroughs would make the best

> grandfather.

>

Visits to grandpa's house would just fuck you up :)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:43:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: On the Road again...

I am going out to San Francisco in about a month. I am interested in

suggestions of beat-related places (besides City Lights) to visit. Also good

used bookstores and jazz clubs. I suggest you e-mail me directly to avoid

cluttering up mailboxes of non-interested list members.

Thanks.

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:24:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road again...

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>I am going out to San Francisco in about a month. I am interested in

>suggestions of beat-related places (besides City Lights) to visit. Also

good

>used bookstores and jazz clubs. I suggest you e-mail me directly to avoid

>cluttering up mailboxes of non-interested list members.

>Thanks.

>Ben

Actually I plan on doing this myself one day and I wouldn't mind a copy

myself. You can post it here since it really does sound like an interesting

conversation, or just double-mail it to Ben and I.

..Critter (Critter@mail.serve.com)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:35:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl Luoma <Filosipher@AOL.COM>

6-02-21 16:33:29 EST, you write:

>>In tune with all the priest stuff -

>>

>>Wasn't Bill's character in _Drugstore Cowboy_ a junkie priest?

>

>Yes, ex-junkie.. but that's knit-picking.

>

>

actually he was an ex-junkie that tended to go off the wagon from time to

time.

But that's knit-picking

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:55:37 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas McNamee <mcnamet@EOSC.OSSHE.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road again...

In-Reply-To: <960221214343_228153477@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Ben Moore" at

Feb 21, 96 09:43:48 pm

Ah! The Hotel Du Midi, the San Remo, Coit Tower, anywhere in North Beach

(the old town bars), Chinatown, watch out for the ghosts. pleasant trails

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:02:50 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

>On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Carl Luoma wrote:

>

>> In a message dated 96-02-15 13:10:12 EST, you write:

>>

>> >"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

>> >

>> >

>>

>> I could believe it. They may seem dull to strangers and people who weren't

>> close to them, but I also agree, I think burroughs would make the best

>> grandfather.

>>

> Visits to grandpa's house would just fuck you up :)

>

If you want to read about this sort of stuff, try a book by Grandpa Bill's

son (also called William confusingly). The book is called Kentucky Ham and

has a section where Bill jnr. goes to see Bill snr. in Morocco. Obviously

the old man introduces the kid to drugs... It's an interesting read, and

apparently surprisingly good (I've only read an extract).

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:19:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: On the Road again...

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

>I am going out to San Francisco in about a month. I am interested in

>suggestions of beat-related places (besides City Lights) to visit. Also

good

>used bookstores and jazz clubs. I suggest you e-mail me directly to avoid

>cluttering up mailboxes of non-interested list members.

>Thanks.

>Ben

Actually I plan on doing this myself one day and I wouldn't mind a copy

myself. You can post it here since it really does sound like an interesting

conversation, or just double-mail it to Ben and I.

..Critter (Critter@mail.serve.com)

Origins of the Beat Generation has a map of SF with Beat landmarks.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:42:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: On the R again

At 8:55 PM 2/21/96, Thomas McNamee wrote:

>Ah! The Hotel Du Midi, the San Remo, Coit Tower, anywhere in North Beach

>(the old town bars), Chinatown, watch out for the ghosts. pleasant trails

Hi...

Sounds like fun.....but I have to report on a trip to NY I took two years

ago, traveled to the Village, and sought the old haunts for that crazy

Columbia crowd of the late '40s and early '50s....

I walked into a coffeehouse (my ancient memory pan hasn't retained the name

of the place, I want to say San Remo's, but, no....) where AG reportedly

wrote most of _Howl_ and Jackie held court with Holmes and Bill,

etc.,......and I found this fashionable boutique-y place with gourmet

coffee....totally 90s decor.....

I had expected photos on the wall (Hey, the White Horse on the West Side

still has photos of Dylan Thomas on the wall....of course, he died in an

alley, victim of a spent liver, behind the place, so there ya' go)....but,

anyway, there was not even a shred of any evidence that, well, hell,

anything had been written in this antiseptic place in the Village.....

Anyway, this innocent, fresh-faced young lady asked if I'd like to be

seated and I said: "Is this the place where Kerouac and Ginsberg wrote most

of their stuff"....and she, of the frozen smile, said: "Huh?"

I excused myself and walked out....

Be careful...you can't go back, at least not in the Village, at least not

some places....

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

<<Nunc senex, ad hunc demens>>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:51:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Hey Critter, what do you do - check your mail once a month?

No offense intended.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:28:08 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs elsewhere in music (fwd)

I've also heard that he covered an R.E.M. tune-- Star Me Kitten,

for an episode of The X Files.

..Critter

Critter

You wouldn't happen to know which episode this is would you? Most bizarre!

from a fellow Bill fan

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:55:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beats exhibit

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:08:13 -0500 from

<Filosipher@AOL.COM>

On Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:08:13 -0500 Carl Luoma said:

>In a message dated 96-02-17 16:20:46 EST, you write:

>

>>The Beat exhibit at the Whitney in NYC is over now. It will open in

>>Minneapolis again in late spring.

>>

>>Howard Park

>>

>>

>

>Any speciffic info? dates? where in Mpls?

Okay, here's the Beat exhibit dates: Walker Art Center, Minneapolis June 2 - S

ept 15, 1996; M.H. de Young Memorial Museum, The Fine Arts Museums of San Franc

isco, Oct 5 - Dec. 29, 1996. And don't forget the Rebels and Poets exhibit on

now at the National Portrait Gallery in DC.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:02:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>>>In tune with all the priest stuff -

>>>

>>>Wasn't Bill's character in _Drugstore Cowboy_ a junkie priest?

>>

>>Yes, ex-junkie.. but that's knit-picking.

>>

>>

>

>actually he was an ex-junkie that tended to go off the wagon from time to

>time.

>But that's knit-picking

I sitting here laughing and wondering what even SMALLER fact I

can touche with. Unfortunately I was too involved w/ the little hats

flying around on the screen to pay that much attention to what WSBs

habits had changed to.

I do remember him picking up that paper sack of drugs though and

retiring to his apartment, so you've got me there. Touche!

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:27:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: No offense received.

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Hey Critter, what do you do - check your mail once a month?

It would look like that. Actually my lack of depth in Beat knowledge

makes me more of a lurker than an actual responder. It just so happened

that the topics for "this month" rolled down my alley. [smile]

>No offense intended.

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:36:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: On the R again

The baton has been passed -- some time ago -- from hipsters to tourists in

many places in the west village. The White Horse tavern has become a meat

market for the young and... lets just say anxious.

However there are many places in the village, especially the East village,

which are reminecent, while not fawning, over beat culture. One just has to

know were to look.

Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 18:54:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs elsewhere in music (fwd)

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>Critter

>

>You wouldn't happen to know which episode this is would you? Most bizarre!

>

>from a fellow Bill fan

>

>Daniel

Not off the top of my head, unfortunately. I'm not to up-to-date on the X

Files

simply because my time doesn't permit this. If I find out I'll get back to

you

on it, though.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:28:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Contact

I am interested in learning a bit about a SF (I believe) journal called

Contact. What was the connection (if any) to Beat literature? Also, what

would be a fair price to pay for an individual issue from the late 50's?

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:27:46 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@UBC" <sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Rebels: Painters and Poet of the 1950s

The National Gallery exhibit doesn't actually open until the 24th...

Subject: http://www.si.edu/organiza/museums/portgal/homepage/calendar.htm

> Welcome to the National Portrait Gallery

>

>

> NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY EXHIBITION POSTPONED

>

> Because of delays caused by the federal government shutdown in

> December, the public opening for the Smithsonian's National Portrait

> Gallery exhibition "Rebels: Painters and Poets of the 1950s" has

> been changed.

>

> The exhibition will open Saturday, Feb. 24. (The exhibition had been

> scheduled to open Jan. 26.)

>

> "Rebels: Painters and Poets of the 1950s" examines the revolutions

> in painting and poetry that took place on the East and West Coasts

> following World War II. The "Poets" section includes such

> counterculture icons as Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Lawrence

> Ferlinghetti and William Burroughs. The "Painters" section examines

> the lives and work of Jackson Pollock, Willem and Elaine de Kooning,

> Robert Motherwell and other artists of the New York School.

>

> The National Portrait Gallery is located at 8th and F Streets N.W.

> Hours are from 10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. daily. Admission is free. The

> exhibition is on the first floor.

>

Regards,

bs@UBC

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:53:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat bookworm

Regarding recent postings over reading beat literature vs. tapes, CDs and

videos, etc. I would like to comment that it was hearing Kerouac read his

stuff on The Jack Kerouac Collection was what really FIRSTexcited me about

beat literature.

I greatly treasure the various audio recordings I have of Kerouac, Ginsberg,

and Burroughs reading their writings. Whenever I listen to them, the

literature is so much more powerful and meaningful to me and I know the oral

tradition is a major component especially of both Kerouac's and Ginsberg's

writing. I can't imagine just being a " beat bookworm" and only reading the

literature. Reading alone doesn't seem to cover everything it was about.

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:46:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gilbert, Len" <lgilbert@INTEGRALSYS.COM>

Subject: Feud?

I read two interesting pieces on the Web, one by Jan Kerouac one by Gerald

Nicosia, about a little perceived or actual disrespect. Implications of

"camps" with Ann Charters, Ginsberg, and Sampras on one side and Nicosia,

Kerouac, and a few others on the other side.

Total gossip?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 05:55:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: ah pook

hello.

wsb wrote a poem called 'ah pook' (from - 'the invaders?' - which he read on

'call me burroughs?')

anyyyyywayy...

was at a friends last night and he put on this animation video which included an

animation to this poem!

bill reading out 'death is the seed from which i will grow etc.' over the top of

this animation was absolutely brilliant. it really captured the poem.

anyone else seen it? if so what do you think?

anyone know more about it?

have any other animations been set to any other beat poems?

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:23:26 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: ah pook

>bill reading out 'death is the seed from which i will grow etc.' over the

top of

>this animation was absolutely brilliant. it really captured the poem.

>

>anyone else seen it? if so what do you think?

_Much_ to my chagrin, I arrived home (in England) one evening, turned on the

TV and heard the old faggot's dulcet tones. I immediately snapped wide awake

and focussed, but I saw only the last minute of this treasure. Did I see a

beetle, or am I mistaken (this is possible since I was playing Gregor Samsa

in Berkoff's play adaptation of Kafka's Metamorphosis at the time...).

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:27:18 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: ah pook (fwd)

was at a friends last night and he put on this animation video which included an

animation to this poem!

anyone know more about it?

Yes indeed, what is this video called, come on people rack them memories....

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:32:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Beat bookworm (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Whenever I listen to them, the

literature is so much more powerful and meaningful to me and I know the oral

tradition is a major component especially of both Kerouac's and Ginsberg's

writing. I can't imagine just being a " beat bookworm" and only reading the

literature. Reading alone doesn't seem to cover everything it was about.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I have been one of those who tries to get this going to the books, I

have to concede defeat here. One the aspects that truely sets the Beats

apart from other poets of the period is the auditory character of their

work (the attempted recreation of jazz improvization specifically) and

this is seen best through their own recitations. I guess we all remember

that it was the Six Gallery reading that took off the movement. The

readings were so important - you are correct here.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:04:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

Comments: Originally-From: "Dan Schiff" <dschiff@sybex.com>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Organization: Sybex Inc.

Subject: Joyce stolen photo alert!

Thought I'd forward this note from the James Joyce listserv. Literary larceny

afoot at Cafe Vesuvio. Is City Lights safe?

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

This just in.From the bottom of Herb Caen's column in The San

Francisco Chronicle, Thursday Feb 22nd:

"On Sun. night, "two yuppies" as the waitress described them, stole

the hallowed framed photo of James Joyce that has hung in Vesuvio

since 1948. $500 reward..."

Be on your toes for suspicious looking yuppies with old photos.

Or without them, for that matter. If you have any hot leads, the

Vesuvio Cafe is located on 255 Columbus in S.F. and the phone

is (415) 362-3370.

Your watchdog in Berkeley CA

Dan Schiff

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:23:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Uncle Bill

At 9:28 AM 2/22/96, M D Fascione wrote:

>I've also heard that he covered an R.E.M. tune-- Star Me Kitten,

>for an episode of The X Files.

>

> ..Critter

I'm new to this list, so this may have been mentioned earlier, but, in the

used racks at a vintage record store in St. Louis, I've seen a Laurie

Anderson (oh, she of the

performance-art-let's-make-this-as-obscurely-weird-as-I-can) album from the

early 1980s, I believe, that features Uncle Bill.

Although I'm fascinated by Anderson, I was flat broke at the time and

couldn't pick it up....when I went back a few weeks later, it was

gone....The album jacket was fairly third stream, so I guess it lives up to

Anderson form.....

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:25:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Rebel Poets

Howard Park and I are over half way through the 8 week class on Rebel Poets

of the 1950s, which is being taught in conjunction with the exhibit by the

same name that people have mentioned. For the last class we are going to

get a personal tour of the exhibit from one of the museum curators. I can't

speak for Howard but I am enjoying the class. The attendance has dwindled

somewhat and I get the feeling that people have had less exposure to the

poets we are now studying -- Black Mountain -- than to the others, but that

is probably to be expected since the Beats tended to be the super stars.

By the way has anyone experienced the CR-Rom narrated by Burroughs entitled

"The Dark Eye?" I have a new computer with a CD-Rom drive so I have been

looking for interesting titles but hadn't read a review of that one so didn't

pick it up -- several Poe stories put to a game format I presume. I have

Myst which is interesting, but would prefer something with more of a literary

flavor.

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:56:48 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Uncle Bill

I believe the album you're thinking of is *You're the Guy I Want to Share My

Money With." It is on CD from Giorno Poetry Systems(1981). It has sections by

Burroughs, Anderson and John Giorno. Also this reminds me of seeing Burroughs

in Anderson's movie, *Home of the Brave*.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:38:25 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Beat bookworm

But it's not an either/or thing, it's both/and -- the books and recordings go

hand in hand. Art, literature, music -- it's all connected.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:11:01 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Kerouac Dream

Last night I had a dream with Kerouac in it. We were at a party and I wanted

to talk with him but he was drunk and sullen. Finally he said if I would go

out and get him some more beer he would talk with me. So my 8-year-old son

and I went out to get the beer. For some reason I let my son handle the

transaction and he bought only one bottle of beer and two gatorades. (We were

in Mexico or "someplace" where there was no problem about a kid buying beer.)

When we got back Kerouac was not happy about only one beer but decided he

would mix the gatorade with vodka. He still didn't want to talk but then I

leaned by the doorway (the holy doorway?) and heard him talking to another

guy. He was very gentle and sympathetic. The drunkenness and sullenness had

all been an act. His voice was beautiful, way more gentle and sympathetic

than on the recordings I've heard. Can't remember exactly what he said (too

bad) but it was a wonderful flow of words.

So just another crazy Kerouacian dream. I have been rereading *Dr. Sax*.

DB

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:10:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Uncle Bill

Comments: To: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

> I'm new to this list, so this may have been mentioned earlier, but, in the

> used racks at a vintage record store in St. Louis, I've seen a Laurie

> Anderson (oh, she of the

> performance-art-let's-make-this-as-obscurely-weird-as-I-can) album from the

> early 1980s, I believe, that features Uncle Bill.

It was probably YOU'RE THE GUY I WANT TO SHARE MY MONEY WITH,

the trio of Laurie Anderson, Bill Burroughs and John Giorno. It's a

great set.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:22:37 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@UBC" <sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: Uncle Bill

In-Reply-To: <1EC8C7B4A47@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

> > I'm new to this list, so this may have been mentioned earlier, but, in the

> > used racks at a vintage record store in St. Louis, I've seen a Laurie

> > Anderson (oh, she of the

> > performance-art-let's-make-this-as-obscurely-weird-as-I-can) album from the

> > early 1980s, I believe, that features Uncle Bill.

>

> It was probably YOU'RE THE GUY I WANT TO SHARE MY MONEY WITH,

> the trio of Laurie Anderson, Bill Burroughs and John Giorno. It's a

> great set.

>

Isn't it more likely to be "Mister Heartbreak", since the original

poster specifically says it's a Laurie Anderson album. It was released

in 1984, and features Bill B. on "Sharkey's Night".

BTW, there are many other John Giorno Poetry Systems records out there.

For a WSB discography, check

http://www.hyperreal.com/wsb/wsbrecs.html

or mail me for a copy if you're web-impaired....

Regards,

Bent Sorensen

Visiting Grad. Student, Dept. of English, UBC

Ph.D. Student, Aalborg University, Denmark

<http://hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.dk> OR <.../bent.uk>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:34:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ta' wil and Burroughs Dream

I am digging mightily people's previously posted dream encounters with brief

writers. To me, they are worth as much or more than a conscious

opinion (in a slightly different way, of course). There is a school of dream

interpretation (and poetics) that draws much from the concept of ta'wil:

which as far as my present understanding goes, means to take a dream symbol

or character back to its mythological source . For instance, if I dream of

my friend, I am not dreaming of my friend but of Hades (say) masquerading,

for the dream's purposes, as my friend. I bring this up because I wonder

what entities might choose to represent themselves by the beat writers.

Cassady surely Mercury... got any ideas?

Anyhoo, here's a dream I had about Burroughs several years ago.

I was sitting by a roadside, painting a picture using heavy impasto and

pallette knives. Up strolls Burroughs, as he looked then in real life. He

checks out the painting then goes on down the road. I am so startled I drop

my painting. Just like the proverbial peanut butter sandwich, it lands gooey

side down. Its ruined. So I start building up a head of steam about

Burroughs ruining my painting. I decide to confront him about it. My

enquiries lead me to a cabana at rundown motel at the edge of town.

I knock on his door. Burroughs answers all right, but instead of the older

Burroughs it's the man as he looked in the 50's. He's wearing a sleeveless

undershirt and baggy pants. So I'm completely disarmed and forget about being

mad, because this younger Burroughs could not have ruined my painting. He

asks me what I want and I ask him if we can talk about writing. We sit down

at this old beat picnic table and talk casually about it

for what seems like a long time.

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:18:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ta' wil and Burroughs Dream

In a message dated 96-02-23 20:58:06 EST, I write:

> am digging mightily people's previously posted dream encounters with >brief

writers...

hmm...I wouldn't touch this freudian slip with any size pole. though maybe it

just stems from my reading more poetry than prose these days...

Julie

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:50:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Contact

Several CONTACTS in the past. Fabled one from Paris in '30s. The one you

have was from Sausalito. Ed. Evan S. Connell (Mrs. Bridge, Morning Star).

Not that much Beat stuff compared to others such as Evergreen Review, Big

Table or Floating Bear. Don't know abt current prices.

yrs

Dan Lauffer

<<I'm with you in Rockland>>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:09:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Nowheresville

Nowheresville- a Beat-oriented comic from CALIBER is beginning a 4 issue

mini-series. The comic features Chic and Queeg, who writer Mark Ricketts

describes as being the thoughtful (Jack) and prankster (Neal) side of the

Beats. They are involved with Chic's former lover "Catherine DiPrima" who

may have framed Chic for a murder. The first issue captured the look and

feel of the 50's and 60's from berets and bongos to jazz record covers.

You'll have to go to a comic store to order it. A rarified taste for the

superhero crowd. Recommended.

Dan Lauffer

<<I'm with you in Rockland>>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:50:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Thomas J Stevens <teij@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU>

Subject: Re: An afterthought... (fwd)

Thom

---------------------------------

There is nothing more

innately human

than the tendency to transmute what has become

customary

into what has been

divinely ordained.

-Suzanne Lafollette

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:30:07 -0500 (EST)

From: Linda <REDTAPE@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>

To: Thomas J Stevens <teij@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU>

Subject: Re: An afterthought...

RE: the role of the beatniks - you can take your pick, depending

on your preference for music or poetry - that is a six of one,

half a dozen of the other type choice as poetry and lyrics

in songs are not that far apart. In music the beatniks of the

1950s, particularly in Greenich Village in New York began and

pursued improvisational sound in rock - drawing on jazz

of course. In poetry and novels I am most familiar with the

San Francisco scene, Jack K, Lawrence Ferlinghetti . . . I still

have two of Ferlinghetti's poetry volumes - A Coney Island of the

Mind and Starting from San Francisco. As an active member of the

"avant-guard" literary community in San Francisco, he and many

others inititated the new San Francisco cultural scene beginning in

the mid fo late 1950s. City LIghts bookstore became a mecca for

folks into that aspect of the cultural revolution. I do recall

making my way there - but not until the summer of 1971 when I was

working on a tactile art exhibit, the Tactile Dome at the Exploratorium,

another aspect of the things coming down then. (The Tactile Dome

I built to last a year - and such a good construction engineer was

I that it is still in operation today. YES. Not to brag, just to

recall some experiences that help me develop confidence in myself.)

That same San Francisco scene later gave birth to significant

music groups, my favorite, the Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful

Dead - are you a Dead Head? And of course in the mid to late 60s

San Francisco became the west coast center for the Flower Children,

"free sex" in the post birth control pill era before we knew sex

could be deadly, and all sorts of drug culture stuff - grass, acid,

hash, and speed (KILLS).

Complimenting and building on the City Lights scene of the 1950s,

UC Berkeley, across the Bay, became THE center of what was known as

the Free Speech movement, the first of the major college campus

movements, long preceding the anti war movement. The Free Speech

movement, which I believe dates to 1961, countered (counter culture

come from that word) contested the mores of the 1950s, bringing words

like fuck into public rhetoric. As I understand it, using the word

fuck in public could get one arrested! Anyway, that movement merged

as the issues changed from free speech to antiwar. And Berkeley was

a major site of the west coast antiwar movement. By the mid to late

sixties because of less than peaceful demonstrations in Berkeley

and along the main drag - Telegraph Avenue - "establishment"

institutions, such as the Bank of America, bricked up all the

street front windows so they wouldn't be broken again. That added

to a "siege mentality" mood and to the increasing "generation gap."

Now, as for researcing on the internet, if you have access to NETSCAPE,

you can to some keyword searching. Probably the best driver would

be through LYCOS. I don't know how sophisticated your library is,

ours is out on the frontiers of all this stuff. This week and next

I am having our history bibliographer in the library introduce my

students to the internet and how to use the various search engines.

We do three hands on sessions. I don't have any documentation on

all this, but I will see what I might find and send you any http

or www sites that I think might have some relevant material for

you. Likely, through some American Studies and Popular Culture

stuff there will be some pertinent material. Also, if your

library has the Humanities Index on CD-ROM you can search through

citations for relevant articles in AS and PC journals. There is

a lot of material that has been written. I can't just pull those

citations out of my head, though, as I am a Mexican not US

historian. I'll see what I can come up with to get you started.

Later, dear,

LInda

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:29:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:07:46 -0500"

<960221180739_428349526@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Personally I am sick of people slaming the young generation. You don't know

our life and you don't understand. But none of that really matters. What

is important is that you realize when you say something about the whole

population in general you are making a fool of yourself.

>How many people out there have read any books by the Beats besides On the

>Road or Naked Lunch?

If a person has not read the Beat Generation Stuff they ought to get the fuck

off this server so people can really discuss the literature or they ought

to get a pair of glasses and start reading something. It ain't so hard.

What you do is you sit down with a book and roll your eyes across the pages

being careful to understand what the sentences mean. It's not so hard. I

read Dharma Bums, Subterraneans, Big Sur, Tristessa, On the Road, Off the Road,

Vanity of Dulouz, Go, The First Third, Town and the City, Walden, etc etc

in three months. So far I have yet to discuss any of this stuff of the server

tho since everyone is caught up in telling other people what to do instead

of arguing some point.

And as far as to the argument of why the Generation X (what ever the HELL

that ever means) hasn't done anything, I would say it's because of these

DAMN FUCKING COMPUTERS ALL THE OTHER GENERATIONS INVENTED!!

Nick.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:31:49 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.iwu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <01I1NZFVGVAC005YPB@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

First, let me say that I agree with Nicholas Herren about the dangers of

typing a generation. Such thinking can lead to all sorts of nasty

outcomes and gets none of us anywhere.

Second, let me suggest that he back off, exercise a bit

of netiquette and be a bit more accepting of those without his vast

knowledge of Beat literature and culture. I, too, am often disappointed

with the quality of discussion on this list and with some of the topics

posted. I have a "delete" key, which I use at those times. I suggest that

Nicholas Herren do the same and save the self-righteous, petulant

flaming. It does nothing but foster division and exclusion.

Dan Terkla

English House

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloominton, IL 61702

terkla@titan.iwu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:16:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Six Gallery Reading

It seems to me that a very worthy tribute to beat literature and the

considerable, enduring social impact of beat culture would be to make a

film, or launch a theatrical production, of the famous Six Poets at the Six

Gallery reading which took place just over 40 years ago in San Francisco. If

done right as a film, this could be our Il Postino (only much more

significant, with all due respect for that excellent film). Certainly, while

Allen Ginsberg, McClure, Snyder and many other original participants are

still living, such a project could benefit from their invaluable advice and

support. Does anyone agree that this would be a most worthwile project to

launch? Perhaps NYU would be a natural choice to get such project started,

or the State University of New Nork at Buffalo - any thoughts?

Gary M. Gillman

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:00:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Books and Bantering

Comments: To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

>If a person has not read the Beat Generation Stuff they ought to get the

fuck

>off this server so people can really discuss the literature or they ought

>to get a pair of glasses and start reading something.

Wow.. so much for wanting to learn from others with similar interests.

Should we not discuss the poetry since it wasn't on the list? I'm not much

of a novel reader, most of my interests tend to side with poetry and

plays and I haven't heard much about them either. Usually I blame that

on myself though being that I haven't brought up the topic.

>Nick.

and now, back to our show. Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:31:26 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Subject: WSB CARTOON

Finally my cue to make a contribution to this list, after being a subscriber

for close to three weeks now, instead of just enjoying to read other's

people contributions.

Recently someone was asking about a cartoon of Ah Pook and I've been looking

for it which took me a long time as I tape a lot of stuff like this of TV as

I'm a film student in the hope that it'll come in useful one day.

Anyways, the said cartoon was shown on Channel 4 in England as part of a

documentary on the UK animation scene and was called Fourmations: 3D or not 3D.

There was an interview with the fimmaker, Phil Hunt, beforehand and he was

talking about how different reading Burroughs is from hearing el hombre

invisible reading his works aloud, a mesmorising experience he called it.

Well it inspired him to make this surreal piece of art with the soundtrack

of Burroughs reading from Ah Pook and Interzone.

Brynjar

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:12:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Megan Milard <Sixgallery@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Gallery Six

the correct name is six gallery. A lot of the confusion is due to one of the

beats--and i can't remember who off the top of my head--(I'm thinking

kerouac) who referred to the site as gallery six in either a book or poem.

It was probably for legal reasons but I'm not positive on that either.

megan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:16:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Gallery Six Reading

>Gary M. Gillman wrote:

>It seems to me that a very worthy tribute to beat literature and the

considerable, enduring social impact of beat culture would be to make a

film, or launch a theatrical production, of the famous Six Poets at the Six

Gallery reading which took place just over 40 years ago in San Francisco. If

done right as a film, this could be our Il Postino (only much more

significant, with all due respect for that excellent film). Certainly, while

Allen Ginsberg, McClure, Snyder and many other original participants are

still living, such a project could benefit from their invaluable advice and

support. Does anyone agree that this would be a most worthwile project to

launch? Perhaps NYU would be a natural choice to get such project started,

or the State University of New Nork at Buffalo - any thoughts?

Hmm...I think trying to re-enact that momentous reading would be like trying

to lose one's virginity again.....it ain't going to happen.

However, here's my pitch...

I think something telling the story that led up to that reading might work.

You know, the story behind the story. What were the dynamics in each of the

major players (I mean poets) lives that led up to that night, that

chemistry...

With so many of the participants still around (for now) to tell their story,

it could be based on an accurate factual account. It could lead up to the

reading ...and then end....leaving us to our own visions or memories of that

night.

I think Rexroth's role as MC and a guiding light in the SF renaissance,

Synder meeting McClure and others for the first time and Ferlinghetti's

description of Kerouac as "just another stumblebum on the scene" could

provide great drama.....

Any backers out there?

I 've always wanted to be a player in Hollywood.....

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:11:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "DOUGLAS W. WACKER" <dwacker@IN.NET>

Subject: Tarantula

>To: Beat-L@cunyvm

>From: dwacker@in.net (DOUGLAS W. WACKER)

>Subject: Tarantula

>

>Just wondered if anyone has read Bob Dylan's 'Tarantula'? I had read about

Dylan's relationship (for lack of a better word) with beat culture and

noticed 'beatitude' in his persona, but never realized the extent of his

stream of conciousness poetry writing and its similarity to beat poetry

until I started reading it. What does everybody think? If you haven't read

it, pick it up, its really turing out to be one of my fav books of poems. I

think it really conveys this weird rural/street bum mood - hard to put into

words. Also check out some of Dylan's liner notes (i.e. Highway 61). Opinions?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:35:41 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: off the road

>Anyways, the said cartoon was shown on Channel 4 in England as part of a

>documentary on the UK animation scene and was called Fourmations: 3D or not 3D.

>There was an interview with the fimmaker, Phil Hunt, beforehand and he was

>talking about how different reading Burroughs is from hearing el hombre

>invisible reading his works aloud, a mesmorising experience he called it.

>Well it inspired him to make this surreal piece of art with the soundtrack

>of Burroughs reading from Ah Pook and Interzone.

Joseph McNicholas (mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu) - that's the one i saw! brilliant

twas also! sorry i didn't catch the animators name, nor the television program

it was taken from, but certain someone out there would know.

now half-way through carolyn cassady's 'off the road'. oustanding read. can't

put it down and have taken more time off work to sit and read it - even better

the fact it was bought unread from a secondhand bookshop for only (a borrowed) 3

quid - an omen!

now up to the part where neal nearly has his foot torn-off & been diagnosed 'a

sociopathic personality with schizophrenic and manic-depressive tendencies that

could develop into psychosis'.

carolyn has some profound observations on both kerouac & cassady (as men, souls

& lovers). would unreservedly recommend it as a must read for those who haven't

had the good fortune - myself included of course!

joe

ps. arriving in the states next monday on the way to salt lake city with a two

hour wait at san francisco airport. anyone recommend any bars to visit near

this airport?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:18:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Documentary: Evening at Six

At 10:16 PM 2/26/96, Ben Moore wrote:

>I think something telling the story that led up to that reading might work.

>You know, the story behind the story. What were the dynamics in each of the

>major players (I mean poets) lives that led up to that night, that

>chemistry...

>With so many of the participants still around (for now) to tell their story,

>it could be based on an accurate factual account. It could lead up to the

>reading ...and then end....leaving us to our own visions or memories of that

>night.

Playing in Hollywood is dangerous, Ben, but I like this idea....I see it as

a documentary, interviewing surviving participants and how they recall the

events leading up to the reading....interspersing with photos of those

past, how they looked then, how they looked years later...hmmmmm....so, who

do we call first?

I'm in the middle of several projects right now, but this really does

appeal to me....I just don't know personally any of the talking heads who

would need to be brought on board.....again, hmmmmmmm....

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:24:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Dylan

At 12:11 AM 2/27/96, DOUGLAS W. WACKER wrote:

>but never realized the extent of his (Dylan's)

>stream of conciousness poetry writing and its similarity to beat poetry

>until I started reading it. What does everybody think? If you haven't read

>it, pick it up, its really turning out to be one of my fav books of poems. I

>think it really conveys this weird rural/street bum mood - hard to put into

>words. Also check out some of Dylan's liner notes (i.e. Highway 61).

>Opinions?

Just listen to the words of his songs....it's on the road set to

music....I've always believed the early Dylan put music to the Beat, so to

speak....of course, there was the improv of jazz, too, but Dylan's music

and the words just sang that highway song, with a bit of influence of Woody

Guthrie, the original roadie......

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:46:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Alexander Macgillivray <Alexander_MacGillivray@MAIL.AMSINC.COM>

Subject: Re: Tarantula

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

Agree with you on Tarantula, it does make for very beat-like reading that

reminds me of soem Ginsberg stuff in the way it abandons themes and

returns to them almost musically.

Alex the lurker

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:25:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: PALIMPSEST

Yesterday I read parts of Gore Vidal's "Palimpsest" and was a little surprised

to find a chapter devoted to the Beats, in particular his tryst with Kerouac,

which he "lovingly"(smile) describes. He excerpts a few passages from "The

Subterraeans" and, as is his forte, is quite pleased with himself and the

character based on him in that novel.

Vidal always comes across as being conceited in a humourous kind of way, but I

found that particular chapter entertaining.

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:36:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: JIM CARROLL

This is a mail message I received that I thought the list might enjoy. Jim

Carroll is still carrying on the oral tradition.

Paul

********************************************************************************

Subj: Jim Carroll Web Site

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:15:03 -0500 (EST)

From: Cassie Carter <ccarter@bgnet.bgsu.edu>

Subject: Jim Carroll Web Site

To: ccarter@bgnet.bgsu.edu

bcc:

Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9602270147.A5424-0100000@bgnet1.bgsu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I've just added four items to the primary bibliography (*Out of This

World* anthology, "Curtis's Charm" in *Paris Review* and on the film

soundtrack, and JC's review of *Kids* in *George*), and one item to the

secondary bibliography (*Current Biography* article).

Enjoy.

Cassie Carter |----------------------------------------|

English Department | Visit THE JIM CARROLL HOME PAGE |

Bowling Green State University |http://www.bgsu.edu/~ccarter/carroll.htm|

Bowling Green, OH 43403 |*Everything you want to know about JC!* |

ccarter@bgnet.bgsu.edu |----------------------------------------|

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 12:40:38 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Storz <storz@VANCOUVER.WSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tarantula

In-Reply-To: <9602270511.AA11464@su1.in.net>

On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, DOUGLAS W. WACKER wrote:

> >To: Beat-L@cunyvm

> >From: dwacker@in.net (DOUGLAS W. WACKER)

> >Subject: Tarantula

> >

> >Just wondered if anyone has read Bob Dylan's 'Tarantula'? I had read about

> Dylan's relationship (for lack of a better word) with beat culture and

> noticed 'beatitude' in his persona, but never realized the extent of his

> stream of conciousness poetry writing and its similarity to beat poetry

> until I started reading it. What does everybody think? If you haven't read

> it, pick it up, its really turing out to be one of my fav books of poems. I

> think it really conveys this weird rural/street bum mood - hard to put into

> words. Also check out some of Dylan's liner notes (i.e. Highway 61). Opinion

s?

> >

>

Yes , I agree. In the Paris Review that has the story about Ginsberg's

class at Columbia, Ginsberg credits Bob Dylan (As well as Billie

Holliday), as influences of speech/poetry rythum and style.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:47:11 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Hammer Flippin', Speed Trippin'

>'visions of kerouac - the life of jack kerouac by charles jarvis' then

>states that he reckons neal fulfilled his death wish! explaining that

>anyone who lives 'on the edge' for so long will eventually fall over

>it.

>

>from what i've read of neal, nowhere does it mention 'a death wish' as

>a way of life, even in the (abstract) context of mr. jarvis' explanation of

>'living on the edge, eventually falling over it'. i realise this is only one

>person's point of view but it made me think (a little).

>

>i'd like to know more please...

>

"Neal said he'd tried to kill himself several times when he was young but

when he came to believe in reincarnation, he feared the penalty too much.

Now he dared God to do it instead by reckless defiance of all danger. So

both Neal and I wanted to die and we'd blame each other, in our worst

moments, for the loss of our loved ones: his family or former loves and my

son Grant. Although he promised never to leave me, he did, for good.."

Anne Murphy, Spit in the Ocean No 6

"He increased his use of 'speed' and marijuana, and took anything else

available. In despair I'd watch him swallow pills he'd 'found'-not knowing

what they were-and in the next four short years I saw him pursue death with

every breath of life." Carolyn Cassady, Off the Road

"Maybe it took a relative outsider like Robert Stone to see, as early as the

summer of 1966 in Mexico, that Neal was in bad shape, that his emotions were

increasingly unreal, increasingly a function of the amphetamine he was

shooting up." William Plummer

While I collected these quotes I put on a Funkdoobiest rap which has the

lyrics "When you hear my tomahawk go bang, do your thing, what ever it is."

I can picture Neal waking up in sixties, realising it's a good decade to

die, saying "When I throw my hammer in the air, do your thing, what ever it

is." and speeding away...

"Come back and remember and go away and come back." Kesey

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:15:10 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Tarantula

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:11:14 -0500 from <dwacker@IN.NET>

Read Tarantula years ago. Think I still have a copy somewhere. But

Dylan's interest in Kerouac and Ginsberg is longstanding. Dylan has even

collaborated with Ginsberg on some Blues albums. Allen was part of

Rolling Thunder and has a couple of scenes in Don't Look Back.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:28:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Re: Tarantula

At 05:15 PM 2/27/96 EST, you wrote:

>Read Tarantula years ago. Think I still have a copy somewhere. But

>Dylan's interest in Kerouac and Ginsberg is longstanding. Dylan has even

>collaborated with Ginsberg on some Blues albums. Allen was part of

>Rolling Thunder and has a couple of scenes in Don't Look Back.

>

In fact, Ann Charters in her superb Viking Portable Beat Reader - let`s have

a volume 2, Ann - indicates that Dylan had submitted poems for publication

to Ferlinghetti in the early 60`s, and of course Dylan is on record as

saying that he was influenced to write by Mexico City Blues.

Gary M. Gillman

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:32:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Don't Look Back

In which scenes of Don't Look Back does Ginsberg appear?

>Read Tarantula years ago. Think I still have a copy somewhere. But

>Dylan's interest in Kerouac and Ginsberg is longstanding. Dylan has even

>collaborated with Ginsberg on some Blues albums. Allen was part of

>Rolling Thunder and has a couple of scenes in Don't Look Back.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

An it's yer life

Do it - don talk it - Andra Greenberg

Forget about the talkers - Duke University

They'll always be around asg5@acpub.duke.edu

You won't ......

--Bob Dylan--

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:18:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Don't Look Back

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:32:17 -0500 from

<asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

On Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:32:17 -0500 Andra said:

>In which scenes of Don't Look Back does Ginsberg appear?

Most evidently, he lingers in the background of the famous "Subterranean

Homesick Blues" sequence. During it, the tune runs on the soundtrack

as Dylan displays a series of "cue cards," on which selected lyrics of

his song (mostly) have been scrawled, and he drops them one by one to

the ground.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:25:52 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Holly Ross <hollyr@OCF.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re[2]: On the Road again...

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <9601228250.AA825009632@wok.programart.com>

On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Mark Fisher wrote:

> >I am going out to San Francisco in about a month. I am interested in

> >suggestions of beat-related places (besides City Lights) to visit. Also

> good

> >used bookstores and jazz clubs. I suggest you e-mail me directly to avoid

> >cluttering up mailboxes of non-interested list members.

> >Thanks.

> >Ben

>

> Actually I plan on doing this myself one day and I wouldn't mind a copy

> myself. You can post it here since it really does sound like an interesting

> conversation, or just double-mail it to Ben and I.

>

> ..Critter (Critter@mail.serve.com)

>

> Origins of the Beat Generation has a map of SF with Beat landmarks.

>

For both of you - I'm a California Bay Area native and a big Beat Gen.

fan. I can shoe the THE "Supermarket in California," Ginsberg's Berkeley

cottage, all the SF downtown joints (around Market St.), as well as other

cool stuff in The City (as we call it). Need maps? More info? You can

e-mail me personally at hollr@ocf.berkeley.edu

Holly

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:24:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading

Seems like it would be more appropriate to launch such a project on the West

coast and not in a university setting. That aside, I think it's an excellent

idea. I have longed wished for a book on the event--something historical but

without the usual academic theoretical posturing. Something with interviews,

photos, narrative, etc. But your idea of a theatrical performance however

sounds even better.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:45:37 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Luis_Saenz_de_Viguera_Erquiaga <lsaenz@RIGEL.DEUSTO.ES>

Subject: Beat list

Please, send me some info to the Basque Country.

Gora Kerouac!

Gora Herria!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:23:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MS TERESA M GIORDANO <KWHA07A@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: RESEARCH

I'm doing some research re: Kerouac life and times and would like to

be in touch with Ann Charters - last I read she was teaching at the

University of Connecticut. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,

Teresa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:24:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Ann Charters

At 6:28 PM 2/27/96, Gary M. Gillman wrote:

>In fact, Ann Charters in her superb Viking Portable Beat Reader - let`s have

>a volume 2, Ann--

Gary--

She has come out recently with either Jack's letters or his poems, I'm not

sure which....

Anyone out there know which?

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:23:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: RESEARCH

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:23:23 EST from

<KWHA07A@PRODIGY.COM>

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:23:23 EST MS TERESA M GIORDANO said:

>I'm doing some research re: Kerouac life and times and would like to

>be in touch with Ann Charters - last I read she was teaching at the

>University of Connecticut. Can anyone confirm this?

>

>Thanks,

>

>Teresa

Yes, she is. Confirmed.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:00:37 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading

In-Reply-To: <960228002453_233090275@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Mitchell

Smith" at Feb 28, 96 00:24:54 am

I also think the idea of a Six Gallery commemoration event sounds cool.

In fact I tried to drum up support for a small version of this idea

last October among some comrades (for the 40th anniversary) but the

time wasn't right.

Maybe with the combined forces of the BEAT-L, the Kerouac Connection,

Literary Kicks, Dharma Beat and the Jack Kerouac Subterranean Information

Society, and others we could get this thing going. Any ideas how to

get the ball rolling?

I also would suggest a bi-coastal event -- one in New York, one in

San Francisco. I'd try to attend both.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Where the vulture glides descending, there's an asphalt highway bending

Through libraries and museums, galaxies and stars

Down the windy halls of friendship, to the rose clipped by the bullwhip

The motel of lost companions waits with heated pool and bar"

-- Neil Young ("Thrasher")

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:03:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading Documentary

At 7:00 AM 2/28/96, Levi Asher wrote:

>Maybe with the combined forces of the BEAT-L, the Kerouac Connection,

>Literary Kicks, Dharma Beat and the Jack Kerouac Subterranean Information

>Society, and others we could get this thing going. Any ideas how to

>get the ball rolling?

I have some experience in writing theatrical scripts....I would be

interested in helping write this....do research, background, etc.....can't

take much time away from my day job, but certainly would be happy to

help...

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:48:06 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "HI,IM VINNIE AND I'M A VENTILATING SYSTEM" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: jack kerouac subterrannaen information society

what is the jack kerouac subterrannean information society?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:24:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: RESEARCH (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: MS TERESA M GIORDANO <KWHA07A@PRODIGY.COM>

I'm doing some research re: Kerouac life and times and would like to

be in touch with Ann Charters - last I read she was teaching at the

University of Connecticut. Can anyone confirm this?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just saw her on the stairs about five minutes ago - she's my advisor

up here. Send me a private note about what you need to know (addresses etc):

Peter McGahey - PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.EDU

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:47:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Dylan and Tarantula

Check out Sam Shepherd's "Rolling Thunder Logbook." There is a section where

Dylan, Ginsberg and Shepherd visit Kerouac's grave. Larry Sloman has written

a book (out of print, I think) called "On The Road with Bob Dylan" with a lot

of references to Kerouac and the Sampas family.

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:46:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gilbert, Len" <lgilbert@INTEGRALSYS.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road again...

>:For both of you - I'm a California Bay Area native and a big Beat Gen.

>:fan. I can shoe the THE "Supermarket in California," Ginsberg's

Berkeley

>:cottage, all the SF downtown joints (around Market St.), as well as

other

>:cool stuff in The City (as we call it). Need maps? More info? You can

>:e-mail me personally at hollr@ocf.berkeley.edu

>:

>:Holly

My email to your email address got bounced back. Can you send info to me at:

home 71532.316@compuserve.com

work lgilbert@integralsys.com

Also regarding the Six Gallery reading/aniversary idea: I'd be interested.

Maybe the SF/Bay Area people could get together to discuss...

-L

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:00:38 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katherine Catmull <kate@BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading Doc

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu

I am fowarding this for a friend (and BEAT-L subscriber) who is having

some trouble posting to the list. If you reply to him personally,

please mail to grasp@pstrategies.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------

RE>>Six Gallery Reading Documentary 2/28/96

I think the idea of commemorating the Six Gallery reading is terrific! After

all, in many ways it launched the 2nd SF Poetry Renaissance & brought

together the "original" East Coast Beats with the both the Black Mtn.

poets & the West Coast group of Duncan, Rexroth, McClure, Snyder,

Lamentia, et al.

Ten years ago I wrote a play called "Kerouac: Mad to be Saved" that was

produced in Austin, Texas. It was an incredible experience -- the auditions,

the rehearsals, performances -- everything. I'd love to be involved in

writing/editing this project.

g.rasp

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:20:57 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gardner Tammy M <tmg839s@NIC.SMSU.EDU>

Subject: status of lawsuit

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.smsu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <v01510101ad5a1eccd349@[146.163.39.50]>

Greetings and salutations.

Does anyone know of the current status of the lawsuit Jan Kerouac filed

against the will? The last thing I heard was that she was giving her

deposition,

but I have heard nothing new since then.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:18:12 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gardner Tammy M <tmg839s@NIC.SMSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.smsu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <v01510100ad5a070d4054@[146.163.39.50]>

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Gregory J. Conroy wrote:

> At 6:28 PM 2/27/96, Gary M. Gillman wrote:

>

> >In fact, Ann Charters in her superb Viking Portable Beat Reader - let`s have

> >a volume 2, Ann--

>

> Gary--

>

> She has come out recently with either Jack's letters or his poems, I'm not

> sure which....

> Anyone out there know which?

>

> gc

>

I think it was the selected letters.

tg

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:19:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading

Levi Asher wrote:

> Any ideas how to get the ball rolling?

I came up with one........the filmmaker Ken Burns (Civil War, Baseball) lives

in a small town about 40 miles south of me. So I gathered up several of the

recent postings on this topic, wrote a cover letter telling him why he should

consider doing this project (including the weath of research resources

available that Levi mentioned), and will send it off to him ( I didn't have

an e-mail address for Mr. Burns).

Goes out in 2/29 smail mail.........

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:41:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading

Levi,

Consider the Kerouac Connection in full support of this idea.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:25:37 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Dylan and Tarantula (fwd)

Dylan's Tangled Up in Blue - 'Me I'm still On the Road heading for another

joint......'

etc etc

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:12:02 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Ann Charters

>At 6:28 PM 2/27/96, Gary M. Gillman wrote:

>

>>In fact, Ann Charters in her superb Viking Portable Beat Reader - let`s have

>>a volume 2, Ann--

>

>Gary--

>

>She has come out recently with either Jack's letters or his poems, I'm not

>sure which....

>Anyone out there know which?

>

... don't know about the poems - uk is always behind on these things - but

the first volume of Kerouac's letters, edited by Ann Charters has been

published:

Jack Kerouac: Selected Letters, 1940-1956, edited with an introduction and

commentary by Ann Charters, Viking (Penguin Group), N.Y.: Penguin Books USA

Inc., (London: Penguin Books Ltd.,) 1995.

rod warner University of Aberystwyth, uk. raw3@aber.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:01:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Six Gallery Reading

At 11:19 PM 2/28/96, Ben Moore wrote:

>Levi Asher wrote:

>

>I came up with one........the filmmaker Ken Burns (Civil War, Baseball) lives

>in a small town about 40 miles south of me. So I gathered up several of the

>recent postings on this topic, wrote a cover letter telling him why he should

>consider doing this project

>

>Ben

Great idea....his Baseball was fascinating....

There's a woman at 20th Ca. Fox who is involved with documentaries.....I'll

contact her for some advice....

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:27:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters

>the first volume of Kerouac's letters, edited by Ann Charters has been

>published:

>

>Jack Kerouac: Selected Letters, 1940-1956, edited with an introduction and

>commentary by Ann Charters, Viking (Penguin Group), N.Y.: Penguin Books USA

>Inc., (London: Penguin Books Ltd.,) 1995.

>

"Jack Kerouac's Selected Letters," edited by Ann Charters, is in

fact now out in paperback. I was reading them recently and discovered the

following Beat Fun Facts.

In a letter to Neal Cassady, complete with chapter headings, dated

in Denver, Thursday, July 28, 1949, Jack writes (at the beginning of the

letter's fifth chapter), "But you must also stop feeling like the student,

the novice-he who is taught by the Justins & Allens. This your own form of

Oedipus complex, to take on the role of he who's being helped, to 'flirt'."

(Quotes by Jack.) Jack's use of the term "flirt" in quotes must be a

reference to Neal's letter dated July 3, 1949 (included in "The Beat

Reader" and "The First Third") where Cassady writes, "I was flirting with

Justin that fall of 41 and living at his Aunt & Uncle's."

Justin Brierly was a high school counselor, and while the notion of

him being the recipient of 15-year-old Neal Cassady's flirtations is

intriguing, moreso is to consider the significance of Brierly's suggestion

that Neal go to Columbia University in New York where he would subsequently

meet Jack and Allen Ginsberg. Had Brierly not suggested this, 20th century

American lit may well have turned out quite differently.

Even more compelling, however, is to consider that Jack must have

received this letter within hours or perhaps even minutes of his departure

time. (It was actually several letters sent together, each dated

separately, which the common reader, not enjoying access to archival

material, must reconstruct from several volumes of biography, memior,

letters, and "On the Road" itself.) In Jack's letter to Allen written on or

around July 26 he wrote, "I am hitchhiking to Detroit tomorrow [...] See

you in N.Y. in 2 weeks. [...] I've written twice to Pommy (Cassady), no

answer. What's the matter?" Jack had been packed for days: "This is all the

paper I have in the empty house a-moving...." (letter to AG, 7/[26]/49);

"Just now as I was looking for some writing paper in my suitcase (all I've

got with me)...." (letter to NC, 7/28/49).

Had Jack missed this letter he would have gone to Detroit to see

Edie, his first wife, instead of San Francisco to see Neal. Carolyn Cassady

wouldn't have thrown Neal out of the house after being appalled with his

behavior upon Jack's late night arrival around August 1. There would've

been no subsequent limo ride from Sacramento to Chicago in 17 hours. Part

three of "On the Road" would have been entirely different, thematically and

stylistically. All this because Jack stuck around an extra couple hours and

got his mail.

More Beat Fun Facts to come.

John W. Hasbrouck

e-mail: jhasbro@tezcat.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:08:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Doug Rice <RICE@SALEM.KENT.EDU>

Organization: Kent State - Salem Campus

Subject: Viking Portable

So much praise for a book (the Viking Portable Beat) that in many

important ways completely misrepresents and mis-glorifies the Beats.

This book especially nearly destroys the work of Burroughs and of

Baraka. This destruction is created by the fine critical eye of dear

sweet anne.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:28:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable

In-Reply-To: <42EB2C4543A@salem-3.salem.kent.edu> from "Doug Rice" at Feb 29,

96 08:08:59 am

>

> So much praise for a book (the Viking Portable Beat) that in many

> important ways completely misrepresents and mis-glorifies the Beats.

> This book especially nearly destroys the work of Burroughs and of

> Baraka. This destruction is created by the fine critical eye of dear

> sweet anne.

i thought i was the only one....i liked the concept of a portable beat...but

to compress...compile...cut and paste....man...it's

like....anti-climactic...worked in theory...not practice....

aside...

left in a daze at the end of big sur.....have a friend, who, although is

quite compassionate and sensitive to others, feels angst at the mention

of kerouac....says, "he drank himself to death....have no respect for the

man." never tried to change her....but felt she was relentless in her

persecution of his tortured battle with booze.....when i showed her a

passage that i picked up one night in another dimension.....it was where he

questioned his purpose as a writer... for if he did not express himself in

this way, the only way he knew how to give, than god would have place him

on this earth for nothing.......

to feel the desire....to have the gift...and to not express it, is the true

sin...against life.....against this very existence. it is others who

create illusions...demigods.....reluctant messiahs....those who

envy....those who criticize.....those who cannot understand the desire,

for they have none.....

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:31:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Is Molly Eckert still on the list? We haven't heard from you lately.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:31:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Viking Portable

Doug Rice <RICE@SALEM.KENT.EDU> wrote:

>So much praise for a book (the Viking Portable Beat) that in many

>important ways completely misrepresents and mis-glorifies the Beats.

>This book especially nearly destroys the work of Burroughs and of

>Baraka. This destruction is created by the fine critical eye of dear

>sweet anne.

Why do you say this? I have the Viking Portable Beat Reader, and I never

felt that it destroys the work of Burroughs and Baraka. I think it is a

wonderful book because it contains a broad sampling of beat literature and

thus enables the reader to become familiar with many different beat writers

and their critics. Using the Beat Reader as a guide, one can identify his

interests and then branch out into other works by the authors contained in

the Beat Reader.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

An it's yer life

Do it - don talk it - Andra Greenberg

Forget about the talkers - Duke University

They'll always be around asg5@acpub.duke.edu

You won't ......

--Bob Dylan--

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:50:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Jack might-have-been.....

At 9:27 AM 2/29/96, John W. Hasbrouck wrote:

>Had Jack missed this letter he would have gone to Detroit to see

>Edie, his first wife, instead of San Francisco to see Neal. Carolyn Cassady

>wouldn't have thrown Neal out of the house after being appalled with his

>behavior upon Jack's late night arrival around August 1. There would've

>been no subsequent limo ride from Sacramento to Chicago in 17 hours. Part

>three of "On the Road" would have been entirely different, thematically and

>stylistically. All this because Jack stuck around an extra couple hours and

>got his mail.

Qute fascinating, John....would J have written OTR at all had he missed

that letter?

Would it have been about a cross-country trip through half the country

rather than coast to coast? Would the Beats have become the Detroit School?

hmmmmmmm....

gc

Gregory J. Conroy

University News Services

Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville

"The doctors X-rayed my head and found nothing."

-- Dizzy Dean explaining how he felt after being hit

on the head by a ball in the 1934 World Series

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:54:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gregory J. Conroy" <gconroy@SIUE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable

>i thought i was the only one....i liked the concept of a portable beat...but

>to compress...compile...cut and paste....man...it's

>like....anti-climactic...worked in theory...not practice....

Yes, Kristen, but I went back and read several in their entirety after

reading the Charters...some good came out of it, methinks....

gc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:30:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Jack might-have-been.....

>At 9:27 AM 2/29/96, John W. Hasbrouck wrote:

>

>

>>Had Jack missed this letter he would have gone to Detroit to see

>>Edie, his first wife, instead of San Francisco to see Neal. Carolyn Cassady

>>wouldn't have thrown Neal out of the house after being appalled with his

>>behavior upon Jack's late night arrival around August 1. There would've

>>been no subsequent limo ride from Sacramento to Chicago in 17 hours. Part

>>three of "On the Road" would have been entirely different, thematically and

>>stylistically. All this because Jack stuck around an extra couple hours and

>>got his mail.

>

>Qute fascinating, John....would J have written OTR at all had he missed

>that letter?

>Would it have been about a cross-country trip through half the country

>rather than coast to coast? Would the Beats have become the Detroit School?

>hmmmmmmm....

>

Jack had begun sketches for "On the Road" after his first road

coast-to-coast trip in '47. This was before "The Town and the City" was

completed. I think it's important to consider how Jack and Neal's

friendship changed (developed? matured!?!) during the August '49 road trip

east. Nicosia's comments about the 17-hour limo ride from Scaramento to

Chicago (see "Memory Babe" p. 290) suggest that Jack's observations of

Neal's wild behavior at this point in our saga, (first week of August '49),

now that NC had burned a major bridge to Carolyn, were crucial to Jack's

later development of "spontaneous bop prosody." We all know that. I just

think it's interesting to see Nicosia pinpoint a point of Jack's

development as a writer to a particular ride. A ride that could only have

taken place because Jack picked up his mail on July 27th.

John W. Hasbrouck

jhasbro@tezcat.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:49:00 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gilbert, Len" <lgilbert@INTEGRALSYS.COM>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable

>:---------------------------------------------------------------------

>:>i thought i was the only one....i liked the concept of a portable

beat...but

>:>to compress...compile...cut and paste....man...it's

>:>like....anti-climactic...worked in theory...not practice....

>:

>:Yes, Kristen, but I went back and read several in their entirety after

>:reading the Charters...some good came out of it, methinks....

>:

>:gc

I agree! I can read a little, see what I like, then get more. Any anthology

is going to be distorting and show some biases, especially in the

introduction to each work, artist, or theme--as well as in the works

selected and even which excerpts get used. If you really want the whole

picture, read the works not the excerpts.

-L

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:46:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:08:59 EST from

<RICE@SALEM.KENT.EDU>

How does Charters destroy the work of Burroughs and Baraka? I'll admit it's ha

rder to anthologize a novel or a play than it is a poem, short story, or essay.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:26:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Viking Portable Beat Reader

I`ve been surprised at the two or three negative posts sent in on the above

subject, one of which even sounded angry. First, with due respect for

contrary views, I don`t think anger is, or should be, a beat emotion.

Second, as an ardent, but non-specialist, reader of the Beats and allied

writers, I found a lot of difficulty finding material by, say, Lew Welch, or

Frank O`Hara, or Amiri Baraka, and accurate bio on them, until I came across

Ann Charters` work. And who better than Ann (whom I don`t know, BTW) to do

this service to a non-specialist readership, considering she is a pioneer of

Beat scholarship, especially Kerouac, of course. Ironically, one of my

favourite parts of the anthology is Baraka`s brilliant essay on (for once!)

Kerouac`s innovations with spontaneous prose, published originally in Yugen,

I believe. I`d never have discovered that, and a hundred other pieces of

great writing, but for said anthology.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:51:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable Beat Reader

I use my Viking Portable Beat Reader to collect autographs. So far, my copy

has been signed by Anne Charters, Ed Sanders, Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

Gregory Corso, Michael McClure, Ken Kesey, Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder and

Anne Waldman. I can't remember who else just now.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:40:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: The Movie/Ken Burns

Wow! Did you EVER grab my attention when you said you'd snailed information

about the potential movie to Ken Burns. Here's what I'd like to offer for the

project: a film like this would require funding. I used to be a grant writer

for PBS and obtained local funding for both "Baseball" and "The Civil war,"

(and yes, have met Ken because I planned a party for him once). I don't know

if it would be necessary, but I'd be more than happy to contribute to the

potential project by trying to secure funding for the film.

Just my two-cents worth.

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:15:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Keep them cards and letters coming...

I posted a message on 2/28/96 stating that one idea I decided to try to get

things going on something to commemorate the "Six Poets at the Six Gallery"

reading was to gather up several recent postings from the list (especially

regarding some of the resources that would be available for the project),

with a cover letter about the reading, and "snail mail" it to the filmmaker

Ken Burns.

That task was completed this morning.

When I read a followup posting by Liz Prato about her grant writing, I

started wondering if others out there might have something else to post

regarding a "compelling reason" to do the project, or a special skill,

talent, or resource (such as what Liz Prato offered) that would be of benefit

to Mr Burns should he consider such a project.

If additional postings come in over the next few days I will again "snail

mail" them to Mr Burns to encourage his possible interest in this project.

I should make clear that, unlike Liz Prato, I have never met Mr Burns, and

just thought of his name because he does live just "down the road heah' in

New Hampsha'..." (in a small town about 40 miles south of me) and wondered

if he would consider such a project.

I can contribute my ability to still find and use a US Postal Service

mailbox........

Ben Moore

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:56:45 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Gallery Six

I'll help out if needed witthat project.

I've completed workshops on most aspects of 16mm film production incl.

scriptwriting, directing,DOP, sound etc., and as a film student also have a

background in theories+history of film along with more on scripts. I write

more than scripts and have had some poems published in journals and am

completing my first attempt at a novel. I'm also a member of some ind. film

co-operatives, IFW,London filmmakers co-op and Panico in England.

So I'd me more than glad to help out in any way if you need someone to stir

the sugar in the coffee.

Brynjar

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:59:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject: Re: Viking Portable

You raise a very valid point - i.e. the dominance that Ann Charters along

with the Sampras family has exerted in rewriting Beat history into their own

warped vision!!

>So much praise for a book (the Viking Portable Beat) that in many

>important ways completely misrepresents and mis-glorifies the Beats.

>This book especially nearly destroys the work of Burroughs and of

>Baraka. This destruction is created by the fine critical eye of dear

>sweet anne.

>

>

>

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:23:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Six Gallery

Maybe the Six Gallery piece should be something that the list takes on -- at

least the basic outline and research. One of the more interesting aspects of

this medium is the speed by which information can travel and an idea can gel.

We should develop an outline online (or an online outline) and then break up

the research among various list inhabitants. We could then turn the writing

over to one person who could post various ideas for comments. My proposal

for a title would be: "From Bridge to Bridge." After the reading Rexroth

said Ginsberg would be famous from bridge to bridge -- any other titles

floating around out there?

Perry

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:38:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: ATTN: All those interested in WSB

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960430221207.18585B-100000@ccshst08>

Attention Beat readers:

URL: http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/

Project Title: "The William Burroughs Collection"

Based on: "My Purpose Is to Write for the Space Age"

William S. Burroughs, 1984.

Description: Using Burroughs' essay as a backbone, a series

of explorative texts taken from a large

number of sources were compiled, combined

with interconnecting original composition,

and hypertextualized.

Highlights: * local search engine

* over 730k of text

* over 150 images

* bibliography

* RealAudio (coming soon)

* reader-review comment session

Stop by and take a look-- http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/

This project is part of a living document and is

continually expanding. Comments and contributions (text,

graphics, etc.) wanted: be sure to fill out the

reader-review survey.

Regards,

Luke Kelly

/\ /\ /\ /\ Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ lpk@bigtable.com

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ http://www.bigtable.com

Please don't drive. Ride a bike! http://www.kdsi.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 04:17:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Claire Davison <Claire_Davison@FPKLON.CCMAIL.COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Beat Publications

Hi,

Excuse me if this questionhas been asked before, but I'm new here..

Are there any 'Beat' magazines in circulation around the U.K. by these

I mean anything from Literary Magazines to Fanzines, absoulutely

anything no matter how professional/amateur it is.

If there isn't would anyone be willing to help start one up in the

U.K., strictly an amateur affair mind you, although I have access to

some equipment (DTP, Colour Scanner, Photocopying etc)

It would be nice to have a voice for the 'Beat' community in Britain,

If of course there is one, for God sakes let me know!

Laters

Claire

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:48:57 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications (fwd)

> Excuse me if this questionhas been asked before, but I'm new here..

> Are there any 'Beat' magazines in circulation around the U.K. by these

> I mean anything from Literary Magazines to Fanzines, absoulutely

> anything no matter how professional/amateur it is.

There is the excellent 'Beat Scene' run from Coventry UK. You can buy it

from Compendium in Camden, London, who always stock back issues.

Unfortunately the address for the magazine is not with me at present.

I'll check it out and mail again later.

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 05:46:15 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Claire Davison <Claire_Davison@FPKLON.CCMAIL.COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

> Excuse me if this questionhas been asked before, but I'm new here..

>Are there any 'Beat' magazines in circulation around the U.K. bythese

>I mean anything from Literary Magazines to Fanzines, absoulutely

>anything no matter how professional/amateur it is.

>There is the excellent 'Beat Scene' run from Coventry UK. You can buy

>it from Compendium in Camden, London, who always stock back issues.

>Unfortunately the address for the magazine is not with me at present.

>I'll check it out and mail again later.

>Daniel

Funny you should say that!, I've just been leafing through the back

posts to BEAT-L and found the address, which is for the benefit of

anyone.

Kevin Ring

27 Court Leet

Binley Woods Nr Coventry

Warwickshire CV3 2JQ

But seeing as you can buy it in Camden I'll venture down there for it,

incidentley do you know where abouts in Camden it is?

i.e. on the High Street, or Near the Docks?

Thanks anyway.

Claire

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:09:55 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Beat Scene

In-Reply-To: <960501094614_702420.204300_BHD48-53@CompuServe.COM>

> But seeing as you can buy it in Camden I'll venture down there for it,

> incidentley do you know where abouts in Camden it is?

> i.e. on the High Street, or Near the Docks?

>

> Thanks anyway.

>

> Claire

>

Claire et al

To get to Compendium bookshop you come out of the tube facing Holland and

Barrett health food shop and take a right on to Camden High Street. Then you

keep going and you'll pass the Elephant's Head pub on a corner. Cross over

the road and just before the bridge you will see Compendium. It has a rather

good beat collection always in stock.

Mail me if this is confusing.

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:37:14 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Amira Baraka

Amira Baraka's appearance in Boston was cancelled last night. He will be

reading tonight (Wednesday 1 May) at UMASS-Dartmouth, 4:00PM, Main

Auditorium. Info, call John Landry 508-999-8274.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:38:56 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Ed Sanders

Ed Sanders will read at TT Bear's, Central Square, Cambridge, MA, Sunday,

May 12, 2-6 PM.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:33:53 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Claire Davison <Claire_Davison@FPKLON.CCMAIL.COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Beat Scene

>Claire et al

>To get to Compendium bookshop you come out of the tube facing Holland

>and Barrett health food shop and take a right on to Camden High

>Street. Then you keep going and you'll pass the Elephant's Head pub

>on a corner. Cross over the road and just before the bridge you will

>see Compendium. It has a rather good beat collection always in stock.

>Mail me if this is confusing.

>Daniel

Cheers Mate, I've got a pretty good idea of where you mean. Blimey all

these years and I've never noticed a bookshop there!

Carry on Brother

Claire

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 15:03:04 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Beat Scene (fwd)

>To get to Compendium bookshop you come out of the tube facing Holland

>and Barrett health food shop and take a right on to Camden High

>Street. Then you keep going and you'll pass the Elephant's Head pub

>on a corner. Cross over the road and just before the bridge you will

>see Compendium. It has a rather good beat collection always in stock.

>Mail me if this is confusing.

>Daniel

Cheers Mate, I've got a pretty good idea of where you mean. Blimey all

these years and I've never noticed a bookshop there!

Carry on Brother

Claire

So you know the Lock Tavern pub then?

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:41:10 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE LEE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

Hi all,

I am just forwarding this from one of my cinema lists. I haven't seen any

discussion of it here, but then I've been gone for awhile...

Bonnie

howardb@sonoma.edu

= NEW YORK -- Keanu Reeves is feeling independent, according to industry

= sources, who say the actor will appear in the $2 million "The Last

= Time I Committed Suicide," filming this month. Reeves, who will be

= center screen in Fine Line's September release "Feeling Minnesota,"

= will not be the leading man in "Suicide." Thomas Jane will be the star

= of the movie, which focuses on a letter that beatnik Neal Cassady

= wrote to Jack Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:52:01 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

BONNIE LEE HOWARD wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> I am just forwarding this from one of my cinema lists. I haven't seen any

> discussion of it here, but then I've been gone for awhile...

>

> Bonnie

> howardb@sonoma.edu

>

> = NEW YORK -- Keanu Reeves is feeling independent, according to industry

> = sources, who say the actor will appear in the $2 million "The Last

> = Time I Committed Suicide," filming this month. Reeves, who will be

> = center screen in Fine Line's September release "Feeling Minnesota,"

> = will not be the leading man in "Suicide." Thomas Jane will be the star

> = of the movie, which focuses on a letter that beatnik Neal Cassady

> = wrote to Jack Kerouac.

Whoa! This IS interesting news. I did a quick search (Open Text Index) and got 1

match. The phrase "The last time I committed suicide" is found in the Cassady

Rap

found at the following URL:

ftp://gdead.berkeley.edu/pub/gdead/miscellaneous/Cassady-Rap

This rap is from a Grateful Dead show, and is transcribed by Kim Spurlock and

wonderfully, maticulously annotated by legendary pal of Ken Kesey and Neal

Cassady,

Ken Babbs.

Let us now all read and discuss this amazing Cassady Rap ad infinitum.

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:26:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Timothy Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

Here wow is another url that has a rap probably the same one

http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/cassady1.htm

>BONNIE LEE HOWARD wrote:

>>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> I am just forwarding this from one of my cinema lists. I haven't seen any

>> discussion of it here, but then I've been gone for awhile...

>>

>> Bonnie

>> howardb@sonoma.edu

>>

>> = NEW YORK -- Keanu Reeves is feeling independent, according to industry

>> = sources, who say the actor will appear in the $2 million "The Last

>> = Time I Committed Suicide," filming this month. Reeves, who will be

>> = center screen in Fine Line's September release "Feeling Minnesota,"

>> = will not be the leading man in "Suicide." Thomas Jane will be the star

>> = of the movie, which focuses on a letter that beatnik Neal Cassady

>> = wrote to Jack Kerouac.

>

>Whoa! This IS interesting news. I did a quick search (Open Text Index) and got

>1

>match. The phrase "The last time I committed suicide" is found in the Cassady

> Rap

>found at the following URL:

>

>ftp://gdead.berkeley.edu/pub/gdead/miscellaneous/Cassady-Rap

>

>This rap is from a Grateful Dead show, and is transcribed by Kim Spurlock and

>wonderfully, maticulously annotated by legendary pal of Ken Kesey and Neal

> Cassady,

>Ken Babbs.

>

>Let us now all read and discuss this amazing Cassady Rap ad infinitum.

>

>John H.

>Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:47:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: nighthawks at the diner....

I was just listening to Tom Waits' excellent album, "Nighthawks at the

Diner" recently and forgot how Kerouacesque that album is (and many of his early

efforts)... Listening to songs such as "Emotional Weather Report" and "Eggs and

Sausages" on this album made me think of Kerouac's ability to catalogue the

minutae of life and how this might have influenced Waits' songs... I mean,

tracks like "Step Right Up" (off another album) seem to have come directly from

Kerouac's (or Cassady's) mouth.... Of course, Waits did a direct homage to all

things Beat with his song, "Jack and Neal"....

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 17:56:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: paper on Bataille:WARNING

Perry lindstrom asked if i would post this awhile ago, so i know at

least one person will read it -- This is not a specific beat-related post

but deals with issues that all poets and writers (not all) face -- For

those of you who are interested in poetry and writing in general and

like insane french authors, you should browse this -- otherwise, just

delete it -- -- IT IS A VERY

STRANGE Paper -- the footnotes got fucked up when i pasted it here -- i

tried to fix them -- i included a bibliography at the end -- tell me what

you think --- It is titled "BATAILLE's NIGHT: Poetry as LIMIT EXPERIENCE"

it is about 12 pages

Introduction

Man is an echo in search of the Sound which made it. That

is to say, man, as a discontinuous being, wishes to possess the

ungraspable whole, his 'opposite', the Other, the continuity

from which he is divorced. Death alone can return man to this

continuity, this totality; consciousness of death, however, is not

possible. For Bataille, it is conceptually impossible to know or

communicate with what is beyond death, since death is an absolute limit

of human experience, beyond which we cannot travel and return. The most

one can experience is the vertigo of the edge of the chasm. This

experience of the edge, of the extreme limit of human possibilities, in

which alone man can 'attain' the whole, requires a sudden negation of the

individual in intense communication. Bataille points to the example of

eroticism to illustrate his point: the supreme moment of erotic rapture

is characterized by the dissolution and fusion of the individual lovers.

Another example, the one which will be explored in this essay, is the

writing(and reading) of poetry. These too have the ability to suppress

the individuals involved. Following Mallarme on this point, and using

Sartre's words, Bataille tells us that "(whenever literature really

appears), reader and writer are canceled out simultaneously: they

extinguish each other mutually, until the Word alone remains."( in

Literature and Evil) Man,

however, can only 'grasp' the whole for an instant, for it too slips into

darkness, man having no means of identifying the whole as an entity to be

possessed. At this moment, there is communication, an opening of the

sacred. At this moment, man transgresses the laws of society, which are

devoted to utility and the avoidance of death, with a completely

sovereign gesture. He ceases to suppress the present moment for some

future end, he ceases to live negatively, to exert all his energy in the

perennial pushing away of death, of the death his discontinuous being:

at this moment of supreme expenditure, man experiences Life in all its

violent jouissance, Being in its infinite profusion.

eroticisM = Fusion

Bataille's notion of eroticism is key to any understanding of his

philosophy, and a preliminary discussion of it will help to familiarize

us with his concept of the limit experience. Bataille tells us in his

"Death and Sensuality" that eroticism is "the assenting to life up to the

point of death." What is at stake

in sex for Bataille is communication between two beings, and in pushing

sexuality to its limits, he wants to test to breaking point the emotional

boundaries of the personality of the man and the woman. It is the

relationship with the other that is important. He is not interested in

sex as something that celebrates individuality and leads to the

sovereignty of the isolated being -- this would strengthen the myth of

the personality which Bataille wished to challenge.

Sex, for Bataille, is intimately connected with and necessarily

includes anguish. It is the intermediary between birth and death, and in

the erotic act we encounter the chasm at the edge of existence. When two

beings embrace, they momentarily experience the surpassing of life that

is death. In interpenetrating, two partners advance to their limit,

which is a state of undifferentiation in which their separate identities

merge. Two waves wrapping around each other for eternity, two waves and

one, everything all at once forever.....

Poetry -- the Revelation of Man to Himself

In Death and Sensuality, Bataille tells us that

"Poetry leads to the same place as all forms of eroticism -- to the blending

and fusion of

separate objects. It leads us to eternity, it leads us to death, and

through death to continuity."(Bataille -- Death and Sensuality)

Eternity is the sun matched with the

sea. It is that impossible point in which "life and death, the real and

the imaginary, the past and the future, the communicable and the

incommunicable, the high and the low cease to be perceived as

contradictions."(Breton, 2cd Manifesto) It is that instant in which man's

original condition

is revealed. "It is man thrown to be all the opposites that constitute

him."(Paz, 139) He can become them all because at birth he has them in him

already, he is already these opposites. 'Otherness' is in man himself.

Octavio Paz writes, "The poetic experience is an opening up of the

wellsprings of being. An instant and never. An instant and forever.

Instant in which we are that which we were and shall be. Being born and

dying: an instant. In that instant we are life and death, this and

that."(Paz, bow and the lyre, p139)

Writing, sacrifice, REVOLT, etc....

"The purpose of poetry being to make us supreme by

impersonalizing us, we reach by grace of the poem the

plenitude of what is only hinted at, or travestied, in the

rantings of the individual.

Poems are those bits of incorruptible being we toss

into the repugnant jaws of death, arching them high so

that they ricochet and fall into the formative world of

unity." --- rene char "ramparts of the twig"

"Genuine suicide can only be literary. (It) implies the

sacrifice of he who writes, a sacrifice 'in relation to

personality' and unique in its kind." (Sollers, p.68)

"The term poetry," Bataille writes in his essay The Notion of

Expenditure, "can be considered synonymous with expenditure; it in fact

signifies, in the most precise way, creation by means of loss."

Through writing, the individual slices his wrists, tears off his face,

'shakes off his flesh', to allow the red ocean to thunder forth, the red

ocean that sleeps in the hearts of all men. The writer sacrifices himself

for true communication between beings. He makes a sovereign gesture,

relinquishing the restricted notion of the self as a defined entity, as a

thing, and sacrificing the future for the immediacy of the moment. This

necessarily puts poetry in opposition to society and its demands.

Society is based upon action, which is utterly dependent upon project --

project is the putting off of existence to a later point. In other

words, it is the condemnation of the present moment for the sake of the

future, embodied in the reality principle. The everyday utilitarian

activity of such a society as ours, by ceaselessly reducing everything

that surrounds us to the level of use value, alienates us from nature,

ourselves, and each other. It turns us into things. Poetry, which, for

Bataille, embodies the complicity of our intimate relations with other

beings, is a direct revolt against(and a sovereign refusal of) this

anonymous process by which we become alienated from ourselves and our

world.

By definition, true poetry cannot be subsumed to utilitarian value,

since it is above all determined by its affect, something that refuses

translation into a product which can be bought and sold. Poetry has no

price. It exists only as an immediacy that takes place in intimacy

between writer and reader. It is an experience that cannot be

recaptured beyond the immediate impact of its telling. If a poem

genuinely affects, then it transforms being, doing so in a way that is

beyond words (although it works only through a shared language); for

poetry, as the surrealists always insisted, is not reducible to a poem

but captures something beyond words that touches the heart. "This sense

of shock -- of recognition and intimacy -- is the soul of poetry, and it

is what connects it with sacrifice, which similarly effects a common

consecration beyond expression." - (in Absence of Myth intro)

This notion of poetry as sacrifice demands further discussion.

Bataille saw poetry as the only real residue of the communal sense of the

sacred that had survived into present-day society. Sacrifice, Bataille

concluded after studying the concept for many years, is in all cases a

failure. As a form of mass (communal) expenditure, however, sacrifice is

wholly necessary. The fact that sacrifice is always unsuccessful and is

essentially useless is a virtue in this sense. It purges the community

of its excess negativity in its attempt to gain mastery over death by

rendering it personal, present and possible. These statements point to

the fact that Bataille does not see the origins of sacrifice as the

institution on which the social bond was based, a widely held

assumption. His analysis is much more grim. In Literature and Evil, he

writes:

"If we must approach as closely as possible, and as often as

possible, the very object of our disgust, if our nature can

be defined by introducing into life the greatest number of

elements which contradict it, but at the same time harm it

as little as possible, sacrifice no longer remains that

elementary, but none the less intelligible, form of behavior

which it has been hitherto. So eminent a custom had, in the

end, 'to correspond to some elementary necessity which

should be perfectly obvious.'" -(literature and evil, p69)

Bataille goes on to say that if human life did not contain this

violent instinct we could dispense with the arts. Bataille feels that

these "moments of intensity" are the moments of excess and of fusion of

beings. When man reaches these states of fusion(laughter and tears are

his cases in point) through anguish and its transcendence, he is,

according to Bataille, satisfying an elementary requirement of finite

beings. Man, as a mortal individual, cannot endure his limitations,

although they are no doubt necessary to his being. It is by going beyond

these limitations that he asserts the nature of his being. Bataille

asks us merely to recall that those arts which sustain anguish and the

recovery from anguish within us are the heirs of religion. Our tragedies

and our comedies are the (necessary) continuation of ancient sacrificial

rites.

Let us return now to the idea of the writer's sacrifice.

This literary suicide has no reward; in many cases, it is a

total expenditure. Any hoped-for resurrection, recuperation,

and reincarnation of the self in the text is impossible. What survives

is a text that is impersonal in nature. The attempt of personalized

consciousness to go through death and survive it is foiled. This is

to say, the subject of any intended self-portrait cannot pronounce his

own Lazare, veni foras, to use Blanchot's terminology; only a future

reader can. This is the meaning of Octavio PazUs statement, "...The

poem demands the demise of the poet who writes it and the birth of the

poet who reads it." There are as many Lazaruses summoned up by reading

as their are readers. The book is a monument, a tomb, but it is empty.

It is not a resting place from which surges forth an integral, inviolate

self. This has been dispersed; no one in particular is there.(gregg, 69)

The notion of poetry of sacrifice then implies the abandonment of

the hopeless task of so-called self-expression. The writer who tries to

express himself is directed against the very nature of the word, which

contains a plurality of senses and not a mere univocal concept. The

modern scripter throws down his claims to authorship, and realizes that

he is more of a servant to language than language is a servant to him.

He abandons discursive thought and its smothering confines, acknowledging

the fact that "writing is that neutral, composite, oblique space where

our subject slips away, the negative where all identity is lost, starting

with the very identity of the body writing." -- (Barthes - death of the

author)

Theory, language, and tangent/rant

This major theoretical shift in the notions of writing, and

subsequently of reading, occurred with the poetics of Mallarme. Much

earlier manifestations of his ideas can be found in the language theories

of the German Romantics, most notably those of Novalis, and in the

prophetic sentiments of William Blake. Writing, with Mallarme, however,

takes on a whole new meaning: in a poem like Un Coup de Des, writing

orchestrates its new powers. In the words of Phillipe Sollers :

No longer is (writing) the mere transcription of a

meaning, but the virtually spontaneous upheaval of the

written surface; no longer the recording and comprehension

of a previous word, but an active inscription in the

process of forging its own course; no longer the truth or

secret of one person alone, the usual humanist reference,

but nonpersonal literality in a world based on a dice

toss.( Sollers -- literature and totality)

Mallarme's logic thus demanded a break with discourse. The

expression of oneself is no longer possible. It denies the gap that lies

between words and their meanings. The gap that is filled by another, the

reader/listener, does not necessarily(and in no sense does it have to)

coincide with the intention of the author/speaker. The intention must

therefore be abandoned in favor of

suggestion, which indeed is only recognition of the gap that must be

filled for any sense to arise. In shared everyday affairs, this gap is

filled by an agreement between social bodies. This discourse, based on

rational thought in the service of utility, can of course never abandon

the ambiguities inherent in the language..... but it can, to a point,

ignore them.

This discourse, in Sollers words, "ultimately can refer only to an

unresolvable man-world duality." This duality in language, which

always leads to a hierarchy of one term over another, is perpetuated by

the power structure of a society. Knowledge is power, power is

knowledge. Power has the dangerous ability to demand that one accept its

logic and its ideology as the Word. The consequences have a profound

effect on man's social being. Dissent places him outside of the norm of

his society. Dissent divorces him from the shared reality that he once

thought was the only reality. This puts man in a precarious position.

This puts the poet in a precarious position: in Bataille's words, "(the

poet) is often forced to choose between the destiny of a reprobate, who

is profoundly separated from society as dejecta are from apparent life,

and a renunciation whose price is a mediocre activity, subordinated to

vulgar and superficial needs."(I also must mention this quote by Char: To

escape the shameful constraint of choosing between obedience and

madness, to dodge over and over again the stroke of the despot's axe

against which we have no protection though we struggle without stay:

that is the justification of our role, of our destination and our

dawdling. We must jump the barrier of the worst, run the perilous race,

hunt on even beyond, cut to pieces the wicked one, and finally disappear

without too much paraphenalia. A faint thanks given or recieved, and

nothing more."-- The Rampart of Twigs.) This unfortunate paradox of the

poet

is the paradox of modern man -- his alienation leads him to this choice:

shall I alienate myself from this alien society that my friends and

family belong to, and in which any possible source of material

well-being(the only goal placed before me as sensible to pursue) and any

hoped-for comfort can be found; or(and the answer has already been

given) shall I conform to the outrageous demands of a society whose

surplus of repression has bitten large holes in my stomach. Needless to

say, man usually 'chooses' to be swept along in the polluted river,

swallowing gallons of dirty water and passively accepting an endless

onslaught of debris which slaps him in the head like the seconds

screaming hurry-up from the clocks all around him until, finally, when he

almost remembers how to be useless (how to live) as a crippled

eighty-year old, the government pulls the plug on his respirator due to

cutbacks in Medicare. It is Bataille's feeling that the poet would have

something important to communicate to this sad soul.

Poetry -- the curse

In my craft or sullen art

Exercised in the still night

When only the moon rages

And the lovers lie abed

With all their griefs in their arms,

I labor by singing light

Not for ambition or bread

Or the strut and trade of charms

On the ivory stages

But for the common wages

Of their most secret heart -- Dylan Thomas (from In My Craft or Sullen Art)

'If you meet death during your labor

Recieve it like a sweating neck welcomes a dry hankerchief.' - rene char

The poet, of course, is involved in the same struggle. His

activity, however, as discussed above, already places him outside of and

in opposition to his society. For those rare poetes maudits, the

situation is much more grim: their lives consist in simply trying to

hold on to their minds, which reel from the carpet ripped from under

their feet by the profound absence inside them. Writers feel this

absence most acutely because of the tool that they work with, language,

the tool that itself creates man. The modern poet is all too aware of

the arbitrariness of the sign, and recognizes that he himself is just

another signifier which has no relation to any signified. He refuses,

however, to be this empty signifier denying (denied) life. He instead

takes on the impossible task of discovering the hidden, unnameable who?

that he is. He must do this in the midst of a society which has a

ready-made label for 'types' like him: madman.

The poet takes tremendous risks in the acceptance of his destiny.

His flirting at the boundaries of being implies a voyage from which he

may not return. He embarks on the voyage alone, in a boat with no oars

and a broken rudder. He sails into the Night to discover the unknown, to

(re)discover man's origin, to find that Word, that impossible Word, that

impossible voyage, which are, all the same, necessary tasks. The poet

knows before he leaves shore: a throw of the dice will never abolish

chance. He cannot care. He knows that he may not return from this

voyage, but this means nothing to him. One word echoes in his head: on.

His heart begins to give out, his boat is busted in a pause, he cannot go

on: I'LL GO ON.

Bataille's Night is the Night of all poets and artists. The

sovereign gesture of the artist opens up the possibility of true

communication between beings. 'Poetry', as Bataille eloquently puts it

in his aphorism, 'is the only sovereign cry,' In the poetic moment man

regains that whole which is lost at birth, or at least during childhood.

The echo suddenly realizes that it is the Sound: it realizes the unity of

Nature from which it is so hopelessly divorced. In these instants of

communication, man experiences life in all of its violence and ecstasy.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

Bataille, George, Absence of Myth: Writings on Surrealism.

Trans. Michael Richardson. London: Verso, 1994

---. 'Death and Sensuality.' Eroticism, San Francisco:

City Lights, 1986

---. Inner Experience, Trans. Leslie Anne Bolt.

New York: State University of New York Press, 1988

---. Literature and Evil, Trans. Alastair Hamilton.

London: Marion Boyers, 1985\

---. 'The Notion of Expenditure' Visions of Excess, ???

Breton, Andre, Manifestoes of Surrealism, Trans. Richard Seaver

and Helen Lane. University of Michigan Press, 1969

Gregg, John, Maurice Blanchot and the Literature of

Transgression, Princeton: Princeton University Press,

1994

Paz, Octavio, The Bow and the Lyre. Trans Ruth L.C.Simms

Austin: University of Texas Press, 1991

Sollers, Philippe, Writing and the Experience of Limits . Trans.

Philip Barnard with David Hayman. New York: Columbia

University Press, 1983

have a nice day

will, your disturbed freshman theorist

(wss@sas.upenn.edu)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:09:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: kaufnam -- kaufMAN

For those interested in a true beat soul, a collection of Bob Kaufman's

writings has finally been published called Cranial Guitar-- it includes

all of golden sardine,

alot of Ancient Rain Poems and Solitudes Crowded with Loneliness and

uncollected stuff -- it is published by coffeehouse press(27 North Fourth

street, suite 400, Minneapolis, MN 55401) -- it is edited by Gerald

Nicosia and has a great introduction with alot of quotes about bob by

those who knew him --

he is also known as one of the true surrealist american poets: here is a

sampling from his incredible "Picasso's Balcony"

"Crying love rising from the lips of wounded flowers, wailing,

sobbing, breathing uneven sounds of sorrow, lying in wells of

earth, throbbing, covered with desperate laughter, out of cool

angels, spread over night. Dancing blue images, shades of blue

pasts, all yesterdays, tomorrows, breaking on pebbled bodies,

on sands of blue and coral, spent....."

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:11:17 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: nighthawks at the diner.... (fwd)

Kerouac's (or Cassady's) mouth.... Of course, Waits did a direct homage to all

things Beat with his song, "Jack and Neal"....

Which album is 'Jack and Neal' from then?

Of course the beat link continues with Waits and Burroughs on 'Black

Rider' album from a couple of years back.

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 07:29:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: nighthawks at the diner.... (fwd)

"Jack and Neal" can be found on Waits' "Foreign Affairs" (1977) album I

believe... I would also highly recommend the song, "Step Right Up" off of his

"Small Change" (1977) album... And you're right about that Burroughs link with

"Black Rider" interesting album - especially to hear Burroughs sing!

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:26:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Symposium in DC

Comments: cc: lor@crest.org

I attended the "Rebel Voices Speak Again" symposium at the National Portrait

Gallery in DC in April 27. I've forgotten much as I went on a business trip

the next morning, so I hope someone else will also post thier experience of

this great event.

The event was held in the Great Hall of the Portrait Gallery, on the third

floor. It was held in conjunction with an exhibition of "Rebel Poets and

Painters" at the Gallery - the poets portion focuses on four "schools", the

Beats, San Fran Reinassance, Black Mountain and New York.

It was slow in getting started so I went outside for a cigarette (Yes, I'm

addidicted to that awful habit) and who walks up, unaccompanied, but the

great bard himself, Allen Ginsberg. On the elevator going up to the ornate,

historic hall, we briefly discussed Whitman, who nursed wounded soldiers in

the building during the civil war.

The first panal "Conversation and Poetry" consisted of Robert Creeley,

Kenward Elmslie, Lawrence Ferlingetti and publisher Jonathon Williams,

resplendent in a bright yellow suit. Ann Layterbach was the moderator. Each

panalist first gave a reading of a short poem. Most of the talk was

remininces of bygone days, all except Creeley had been active in publishing.

Williams, active at Black Mountain Collage, was the first to publish

Creeley. And of course, Ferlingetti was the first to publish AG, who sat in

the front row and took many pictures. Much of the discussion focused on

"place", Creeley spoke of his home in Buffalo, NY, Williams of his longtime

home in rural western North Carolina. Ferlingetti did not make too much of

an impression on me other than he looked quite well and was in good spirits.

The second panel featured AG, Michael McClure and Kenneth Koch, moderated by

Ron Padgett. Amiri Baraka was listed, but was a no-show. The discussion, at

first, seemed stilted and less stimilating than I had expected, focusing of

details of where the participants had been or what they had done back on this

or that day sometime in the 1950's or 60's, something to do with where they

had been when they sat for various portraits that are featured in the

exhibition on the first floor of the Gallery. The discussion got more

interesting as it progressed (AG on censorship of TV and radio among other

topics) culminating in an inspiring reading of Death to Van Gogh's Ear by AG.

The bard definately was showing his age, but let there be no doubt that he

can read as well, as firey, as wonderfully as I've ever heard him. Several

poets invoked the sprit of Whitman and Kerouac. After the panel I hung

around and spoke to McClure and AG, who were both generious with thier time

and insights.

I should mention that AG was often beseiged with requests for signings and

complained more than once that "they are trying to turn me into an autograph

machine." My experience is that eager fans (like myself) should wait for the

right time (not when he is encircled or clearly pressed for time) and have

something intelligent to say to the great bard other than "I love your poetry

so much", etc... I cannot blame him for being slightly cranky at times as

one book after another is shoved into his face. Still, my observation was

that over the course of the day, about 90% of the requests for signings were

fulfilled.

After the panel events featured slides by J. Williams, a documentary about

Frank O'Hara and another about Gary Snyder. I missed these.

The main event was a reading, at night, featuring (in rough order) Gregory

Corso, J. Williams, R. Creeley, K. Elmsley, Lawrence Ferlingetti, Kenneth

Koch, Michael McClure, AG followed by music by David Amram and friends.

Corso was quite enjoyable, his 11 year old son (forget his name) also read a

touching, innocent poem and showed great poise before the crowd of 350 or so.

Gregory was in a good mood. All read for about 10-15 minutes. I enjoyed

each one very much and was often moved. Elmsley was the most humerious,

doing a funny, kitchy, partial drag reading accompanied by music and

graphics. Ferlingetti, as usual, was political. I was honestly impressed by

each, culminating with AG who read, among others, his 1995 poem "The Ballad

of the Skeletons." By the way, AG will have a new selected poems volume out

later this year.

David Avram was, well, David Avram (of Pull My Daisy fame, among many other

things). Standard, skilled, some improvization, 3-piece jazz interspersed

with raps about the greatness of Jack Kerouac (So, who's got the last laugh

now Mr. Truman "it's typing, not writing, ha, ha, ha... Capote). One

observer described Avram as the "Mr. Rogers of the Beat Generation". Avram

is delightful, approachable, and full of joy -- A real pleasure.

Steven Watson was the MC for the days activities.

After the reading there was a surprise reception on the second floor of the

historic, wonderful gallery (one of DC's lesser known gems). Lots of book

signing, schmoozing, etc. I stayed till the end. As I exited, there was the

bard, AG, still there, still imparting wisdom, or at least his thoughts to

young fans as the guards shooshed us away. AG, I hope you slept well. A

good time was had by all.

No, it was not the Six Gallery revisited. Yes, the program would have been

stronger with more sexual, racial, etc. diversity (Diane DiPrima was invited,

but had a conflict, Baraka did not show.) No there was little or no

"controversy" which might have livened things up. But, it was Beat indeed!

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:11:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <rpeltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: kaufnam -- kaufMAN

>

>he is also known as one of the true surrealist american poets: here is a

>sampling from his incredible "Picasso's Balcony"

>

>"Crying love rising from the lips of wounded flowers, wailing,

>sobbing, breathing uneven sounds of sorrow, lying in wells of

>earth, throbbing, covered with desperate laughter, out of cool

>angels, spread over night. Dancing blue images, shades of blue

>pasts, all yesterdays, tomorrows, breaking on pebbled bodies,

>on sands of blue and coral, spent....."

>

"wounded flowers"? "desperate laughter"? Weak.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 15:29:53 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: nighthawks at the diner.... (fwd)

"Jack and Neal" can be found on Waits' "Foreign Affairs" (1977) album I

believe... I would also highly recommend the song, "Step Right Up" off of his

"Small Change" (1977) album... And you're right about that Burroughs link with

"Black Rider" interesting album - especially to hear Burroughs sing!

bfn,

JDL

Speaking of Uncle Bill singing, check out his version of 'Falling in Love

Again' from the album Dead City Radio. It's great and sung totally in German!

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:30:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Symposium in DC

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

unsuscribe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:57:18 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

In regards to the on-line Cassady Rap mentioned yesterday (Wednesday), I

have a question for the list. Perhaps somebody out there can help settle

and argument my boss and I are having about the rap.

About a third of the way through the rap, Neal uses the term

"Keroassady". Ken Babbs' annotation (#30) states, "KEROASSADY: the

composite Jack/Neal: a hybrid personality that did 'em both in."

The first time I heard this word I was fascinated not only by the beauty

of its aural power (specifically, the way the middle "a" bridges the

third syllable in "Kerouac" to "Cassady") but also by the fact that,

when spoken, one hears the word "acid" quite clearly. One could even

argue that you hear the word "acid-y" (or "aciddy").

My boss thinks this is too much of a stretch. I, however, argue by

speculating that when Neal used the word "Keroassady" it was in an

entirely ORAL context, rather than a WRITTEN context. When reading

"Keroassady", one may not immediately perceive the word "acid" within

it. Spoken aloud, however, I maintain its undeniable, albeit subliminal,

presence.

I'm very interested in some feedback on this. Ultimately, we might want

to email the question to Zane Kesey over at Key-Z Productions. If we ask

nice, maybe we could get a response from Babbs himself. He was there.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:07:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bobby Singh <EABU354@UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

In-Reply-To: <960501081742_702420.204300_BHD48-14@CompuServe.COM>

Hi all,

I am new to this list and generally to the whole "Beat" thing. I

was wondering if there are any magazines (paper or electronic) about this

topic here in USA. If yes, any addresses will be appreciated. Thanks for

any help.

Bobby Singh

eabu354@ea.oac.uci.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

And I got sick...it was the feeling that the great, deadly pointing forefinger

of society was pointing at me--and the great voice of millions chanting,

'Shame. Shame. Shame.' It's society's way of dealing with someone different.

--One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the

longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the

suffering of mankind. --Bertrand Russell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:13:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Bobby Singh <EABU354@UCI.EDU> "Re: Beat Publications" (May 2,

4:07pm)

jackass mothrffucker'

whhaat up you duumb mothhre=e==erfycker

love, love, ovee.

how we do love the sweggch]][\\riight, we all you. yoou have the sweetesy

little pussy that i'd like to lick............dig iit, seems like i need aa

littlee ffacceassauge. ssooo -yum

--

--

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:31:20 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: nighthawks at the diner.... (fwd)

"Jack and Neal" can be found on Waits' "Foreign Affairs" (1977) album

I believe... I would also highly recommend the song, "Step Right Up"

off of his "Small Change" (1977) album... And you're right about that

Burroughs link with "Black Rider" interesting album - especially to

hear Burroughs sing!

bfn,

JDL

Speaking of Uncle Bill singing, check out his version of 'Falling in Love

Again' from the album Dead City Radio. It's great and sung totally in German!

Daniel

I am desperatly searching for the "Black Rider" album. Where and when

has it been released ?

Jens

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:45:06 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: j.k. school of disembodied poetics

hi there,

can anyone tell me the exact email snail mail or even www adress of the j.k.

school of disembodied

poetics ?

thanks a lot !

jens

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:53:15 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: biography of brautigan

hi there,

could anyone name me a good richard brautigan biography ?

i tried to get the one by keith abboth, capra press, santa barbara,

calif. 1989, but here in germany it is nearly impossible, to get rare

american books that have been released more than 5 years ago.

i don't know, whether he can be called a beat writer, but he was an

acquaintance of allen ginsberg and appeared on a group photo in arthur and

kit knights' wonderful book "keroac and the beats".

thanks a lot !

jens

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:03:19 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: the audio brautigan

hi there,

are there any tapes, lps or re-released compact discs with brautigan

reading his wonderful stuff ?

thanks a lot!

jens

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 10:11:14 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: nighthawks at the diner.... (fwd)

Daniel

I am desperatly searching for the "Black Rider" album. Where and when

has it been released ?

Jens

Hello Jens

Black Rider is still available as far as I know. Try the service on

telnet called cdnow. It's at:

cdnow.com

They also stock other Burroughs bits including the recent cd release of

'Call Me Burroughs'.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:23:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Bobby,

I co-publish <<DHARMA beat >> a magazine of all things Kerouac. The latest

issue (#6) includes an unpublished Kerouac piece, a piece on the Kerouac

connection with Nashua, NH, reviews of the Whitney opening and Lowell

Festival as well as resource guides to magazines, zines, books, events,

etc.

Published Spring and Fall. Single issue $2.50, subscription $5.00. Check

to: DHARMA BEAT. Send it to The Jack Kerouac subterranean Information

Society, Box 1753, Lowell, MA 01853. Hard copy only.

Mark h.

P.S. Apologies to everyone for slow response to your letters. My day job

is killing me!, but I do promise I'll get to everyone. Thanks for your

patience.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:32:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: National Portrait Gallery

I was able to take time on a recent business trip to D.C. to check out the

beat exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery. The exhibit is modest. It

includes paintings, sketches and photos of and by a lot of beat poets and

artists. There's also a bunch of first editions and audio hook-ups. It was

just the right size to be able to disgest. Lots of info, a rare (for me)

wide angle look at the movement that doesn't focus on any single or couple

of people.

The best part was hearing the recording of Jack reading SF Blues in the

Gift Shop of the National Portrait Gallery.

Definitely worth a visit.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:28:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 2 May 1996 16:57:18 +0000 from

<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

You've got my vote -- Keroacidy!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:51:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MS GAYLE M ALSTROM <gm_alstrom@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: listserve

Please removed my name from your e-mail list.

Gayle Alstrom

g_alstrom@prodigy.com

Thank you.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:53:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: biography of brautigan

In a message dated 96-05-03 03:57:09 EDT, you write:

>i don't know, whether he can be called a beat writer, but he was an

>acquaintance of allen ginsberg and appeared on a group photo in arthur and

>kit knights' wonderful book "keroac and the beats".

I think he (Brautigan) falls into a loose category of writers from the

"California" or "West Coast" school - a group that includes Tom Robbins and

Ken Kesey. There seems to be a lot of cross-over into Beat circles with this

group. Sort of a Post-Beat bastard child thing maybe.

Nels

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 15:06:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: RWhiteBone@AOL.COM

Subject: further

Hello Levi! I'm new to techno. computer illiterate but immersed in

holyunholycyberwater. How do I get on BEAT-L list serve. Please let me know.

Thanks!

Ron "Rollo" Whitehead 5/03/96 3:04PM RWhiteBone@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:50:15 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Cassady-Kerouac

Just wondering if many of you have read "Holy Goof", a bio of Neal?

Interesting and sad to find that both experienced huge, life-changing

traumas - quite different in detail - that apparently fueled an inward,

Imaginative turn.

The loss of Girard and its impact on Jack is pretty well known. I had not

known about the bizarre, cruel more-or-less torture of Neal by his (I think)

step or half brother, after the two oldest(late teens, as I recall) of these

male relatives of Neal decided that he should leave his father and the

flophouse (which according to this account, was slightly healthier than it

had sounded in other, brief mentions of this period of his life) to live

with his mother and the other boys. Neal was still a single-digit age at

the time, and a slightly older brother/half or step brother would force him

onto one of those beds that fold up into the wall and then slam him into the

storage wall, inside the bed - making him stay there for literally hours on

end. This went on for at least close to a year, perhaps longer. "The Holy

Goof" describes this along with other childhood scenes. The writer quotes

Neal talking about the effect on his mind this had, which sounds a little

like a cross between epilepsy and creative visualization. Apparently, Neal

began to drift loose of the flow of time that he and we presumably normally

experience...such that he was a bit faster than those nearby. In later life,

Neal would experience increasing periods of "white outs" or near autism.

I'm no expert, but it occured to me that childhood abuse can cause

personality splits and other disorders. Also, his violence with women might

possibly have stemmed from this treatment.

The book has an excellent discussion of the nature and subsequent emotional

and mental impact on Neal's preceptions. Looks like both of the arguably

central characters in the Beat generation shared a life-changing,

terror-inspiring childhood event that both touched off creativity, perhaps

as an adaptation to the pain, and emotional scarring that may well have

contributed to their difficult (as well as spectacular and creative) adult

lives.

Anyone have more or better info on this?

Best regards to all,

Jon Schwartz

jbs@uwyo.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:20:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: RWhiteBone@AOL.COM

Subject: and I'm searchin for Levi

Hello again Levi! I've misplaced your e-mail address so sending this message

with hope that it finds you. Exchanged messages with Sara in Chicago today.

I'm trying to get caught up on few hundred letters, phone calls, & e-mail

messages. On March 30th was sucketpunched by Kentucky militiaman type genuine

redneck broke nose, cheek, jaw, permanently dislocated jaw, concussion with

migraines. Left side of face moved to right side. Hard to believe one vicious

punch could do so much damage. Wonder if he had something in his hand.

Already had two surgeries to straighten face out. Told yesterday that I'll

have to endure 4-5 years of orthodontic surgery treatments complete

reconstruction of inside mouth. Guy who hit me pleaded guilty confessed last

Wednesday. Our present fascist Congress and people like Rush Limbow have

provided an environment in which people like man who hit me have been given

the confidence to come out of the closet and unleash release their anger

angst anxieties on whoever they feel isn't one of them on their side anyone

who appears to be liberal feminazi etc. And yes I have written new poem

titled "Most Wanted" which I presented at reading last week. Anyway Sara from

Chicago sent me report on Washington D.C. Smithsonian National Portrait

Gallery exhibition event reading The Birth of The Beat Generation Rebels

Poets Painters of the 50s. I've had to cancel numerous engagements due to

full time visits to doctors but have managed to make a few readings &

Lawrence Ferlinghetti, my mentor & friend, invited me to D.C. for the

happenings plus so we could get caught up on various projects we're working

on now. It was a wonderful event but tomblike aura with museum surroundings.

Energy low compared to most readings I've participated in & been witness to.

I commend Smithsonian for courage to have the event in face of current

political climate but still explicit obvious attempt to mummify The Beats who

aren't dead and never will be. They were & are the most important group of

writers in history of America. Their spirit lives even stronger today than

ever as witnessed in hearts souls actions lives of young people all over the

world who crave Beat energy who understand Beat energy who are themselves

Beat who want to change world who are frustrated with fucking status quo

power-monger elite & who recognize that Beats are still the only revolution

(along with computerworld which they have now entered engendered revolution

there too) around. Diane di Prima was not present at event. I talked with her

last week. Although she is ailing physically somewhat with bad back she is

strong as ever. I just published new Published in Heaven poster by Diane. New

poem titled

"Good Clean Fun" bout present political climate. And Lawrence gave me new

poem for poster (last one he read at National Portrait Gallery) which is also

bout present political climate. Both so strong. Yes Diane the only war that

matters is the war against the imagination. Check out Diane's poem "Rant" in

her PIECES OF A SONG published 1990 by City Lights. She is one of world's

greatest poets & so relieved that her autobiography is completed and coming

out from Viking Penguin April '97. Youth today recognize the courage of

engagement the Beats still have & they are rightfully inspired by it. For too

long the best have lacked all conviction while the worst have been & are full

of passionate intensity.

Ferlinghetti also updated me on On the Road movie goingson. Hope this finds

you.

All the Best, Ron "Rollo" Whitehead, White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road,

Louisville, Kentucky 40206. phone 502-568-4956. e-mail RWhiteBone@aol.com

5/03/96 5:19PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:23:58 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady-Kerouac

Dear Jon, et al.,

As far as I know, the material in "The Holy Goof" describing Neal being

terrorized by his brother(s) was taken entirely from Neal's own

description of his childhood in "The First Third". It's important to

know that TFT is now in print in a revised, substantially enlarged

edition which contains a great deal of new material concerning Neal's

childhood and family history.

At first, I liked "The Holy Goof", but recently while rereading it

(during my not-quite-notorious Chronological Beat Reading Project) I

found it to be seriously inadequate. I mean, jeez, WHOLE YEARS from the

fifties are dealt with in a paragraph or two, if at all! I don't really

want to disparage it too much, it being, after all, a POPULAR BIOGRAPHY.

It pains me to think that we are lucky to have even this, and I am still

waiting for the day when a 1000 page CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY of Cowboy Neal

written by a PROFESSIONAL SCHOLAR hits the shops.

Anyway, by all means pick up and READ the revised edition of "The First

Third" if your reading schedule permits.

As ever,

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:00:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: biography of brautigan

Afraid I can't help with your search, but if you have a chance I'd appreciate

address and info for Capra Press.

thanx

John

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:03:04 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cassady-Kerouac

Hi John H.!

Thanks for the tip on the new edition of "The First Third." Do you or does

anyone have price and format info on it?

Best regards to all,

Jon

>Dear Jon, et al.,

>

>As far as I know, the material in "The Holy Goof" describing Neal being

>terrorized by his brother(s) was taken entirely from Neal's own

>description of his childhood in "The First Third". It's important to

>know that TFT is now in print in a revised, substantially enlarged

>edition which contains a great deal of new material concerning Neal's

>childhood and family history.

>

>At first, I liked "The Holy Goof", but recently while rereading it

>(during my not-quite-notorious Chronological Beat Reading Project) I

>found it to be seriously inadequate. I mean, jeez, WHOLE YEARS from the

>fifties are dealt with in a paragraph or two, if at all! I don't really

>want to disparage it too much, it being, after all, a POPULAR BIOGRAPHY.

>It pains me to think that we are lucky to have even this, and I am still

>waiting for the day when a 1000 page CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY of Cowboy Neal

>written by a PROFESSIONAL SCHOLAR hits the shops.

>

>Anyway, by all means pick up and READ the revised edition of "The First

>Third" if your reading schedule permits.

>

>As ever,

>

>John H.

>Chicago

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 15:10:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Timothy Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: and I'm searchin for Levi

>Our present fascist Congress and people like Rush Limbow have

>provided an environment in which people like man who hit me have been given

>the confidence to come out of the closet and unleash release their anger

>angst anxieties on whoever they feel isn't one of them on their side...

Sounds like a classic case of projection.

Anyhow, Levi Asher probably read this message, but his e-mail is

brooklyn@netcom.com

Sorry that some moron hit you. I hope he gets put away for a good long

time, but probably won't. Hope you feel better and heal up well.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:24:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

Although I am unfamiliar with the recording you are discussing, I am

intriqued by the term "Keroassidy." It seems to me that your analysis of the

word is accurate for a couple of reasons; first in consideration of the

emphasis on oral presentation inherent in beat poetry--value of the feel,

taste, and cosmic resonance of words regardless of definition, grammatical

usage, etc. and secondly because your reaction in light of the previous

reason is automatically correct (at least within the confines of your own

emotions, and after all, what else matters?). You may not be able to defend

your position according to the "rules" of traditional literary criticism,

and it sounds like a diffucult point to defend incontrovertibly, but if thats

how it hits you, go with it.

If you have an opportunity to expand on the context in which the term

was used, for the edification of the uninitiated, I for one would be very

interested. By the way congratulations on having found a job with a boss you

can have these sort of discussions with, I don't know what the pays like but

it certainly sounds like a sweet deal to me.

In Reckless Pursuit of Knowledge

John

"Don't Push It, Let it Swing!"

John Pizzarelli

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 02:50:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Keroassady...

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <960503192436_106157487@emout08.mail.aol.com>

Hmmm...it makes you think. What if there was only Keroassady. I think

with Neal's soul and Jack's ability to write, Keroassady truly would have

saved the human race. We'd all be in heaven right now...well, maybe. I

really do believe that Jack and Neal were both truly special people.

(Allen too, and still is). I just wonder what would have happened if

they kept in touch. I think both of their deaths were partially caused

by their seperation. Im sure this has been discussed many times before

but it truly intrigues me. Goddamn why'd they have to die. I just want

to spend one night with those two and Allen just talking about life and

everything.

I found some awesome books in a used book store today. I was

wondering what you guys think about the prices. $25 for a first edition

of Visions of Cody, hardcover. $30 for a 1rst ed. of Maggie Cassidy,

soft. And $60 for the 1rst british ed. of Maggie Cassidy, 1rst hardcover

ed. I didnt buy these but i did buy Satori in Paris & Pic, Grace beats

Karma (finally, ive found some of neals writings), On the Road (a copy

for my brother), No nature (Snyder), Look Homeward, Angel (Wolfe), and a

book that contains poems by Bukowski and Phillip Lamantia. All in all it

was a very successful outing!

Goodnight

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

matt

"Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules."

-William Blake

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:38:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Enjoy This

Hello all-

See where you fit in the scheme from Toimothy Leary's Chaos & Cyber

Culture, Berkeley, CA: Ronin, 1994.

Evolution of Counter Culture

Beats (1950-1965)

Mood: Cool, laid back.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Artistic, literate, hip. Interested in poetry, drugs,

jazz.

Attitude: Sarcastic, cynical.

Brain-Tech: Low-tech, but early psychedelic explorers.

Intellectual viewpoint: Well-informed, skeptical, street-smart.

Humanist Quotient: tolerant of race and gay rights, but often male

chauvinist.

Politics: Bohemian, anti-establishment.

Cosmic View: Romantic pessimism, Buddhist cosmology.

Hippies (1965-1975)

Mood: Blissed out.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Earthy, horny, free-love oriented. pot, LSD, acid rock.

Attitude: Peaceful, idealistic.

Brain-tech: Spychedelic, but anti-high-tech.

Intellectual Viewpoint: Know-it-all, anti-intellectual.

Humanist Quotient: Male chauvinist, sometimes sexits, but socially

tolerant and global village visionary.

Politics: Classless, irreverent, passivist, but occasionally activist.

Cosmit View: Acceptance of chaotic nature of universe, but via Hindu

passivity. Unscientific, occult minded, intuitive.

Cyberpunks (1975-1990)

Mood: Gloomy. Hip, but downbeat.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Leather and grunge, tatoos, piercings. Hard drugs,

psychedelics, smart drugs. Various forms of rock from

metal to rap.

Attitude: Angry, cynical, feel undervalued buy elders.

Brain Tech: High-tech electronic.

Intellectual viewpoint: Informed, open-minded, irreverent. Inundated with

electronic signals.

Humanist Quotient: Non-sexist, ecological, global minded.

Politics: Alienated, skeptical.

Cosmid View: Pessimist, but closet hope fiends.

New Breed

1990-2005)

Mood: Alert, cheerful.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Invention of personal style. Eclectic. Prefer techno

and ambient music.

Attitude: Self confident.

Brain-Tech: Psychedelic, super high-tech. Smart drugs, brain machines,

Internet.

Intellectual Viewpoint: Informed, open-minded, irreverent.

Humanist Quotient: Tolerant, non-sexist, ecological, global.

Politics: Detached, individualistic. Zen opportunists.

Cosmic View: Acceptance of complexity, willingness to be a "chaos designer."

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 11:13:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: RWhiteBone@AOL.COM

Subject: On the Road

Hello! Yes the film version of On the Road is still on and good news is that

the book itself will be the script. Have a little more info for anyone

interested and/or if you'd like a copy of nearly 200 new titles by Kerouac,

Burroughs, Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Corso, di Prima,

Baraka, Jan Kerouac, Hunter S. Thompson, Jim Carroll, His Holiness The Dalai

Lama, Thomas Merton, Robert Lax, Robert Hunter, Lee Ranaldo, BONO, Herbert

Huncke, James Laughlin, Andy Warhol, Edvard Munch, Seamus Heaney, Rita Dove,

Anne Waldman, Ed Sanders, Wendell Berry, Cathal O'Searcaigh, Eithne Strong,

John Updike,

Ron Whitehead, E. Ethelbert Miller, Kent Fielding, Ron Seitz, David Amram,

Leon Driskell, & numerous others from White Fields Press Published in Heaven

Poster, Book, Chapbook, & Audio Series let me know at: Ron Whitehead, White

Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville, Kentucky 40206 USA. phone

502-568-4956 or e-mail at

RWhiteBone@aol.com or check out Web site under construction at

http://www.neosoft.com/~whtfld/ Thanks! Ron Whitehead 5/05/96

11:12AM

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 13:19:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Cassady raps (repost)

This was posted to the list several months back - A transcript of Cassady

rapping w/ the Grateful Dead in July, 1967. Within the rap, one finds the

phrase: "that was the last time I committed suicide", in the apparent context

of a reference to three-way sex among Cassady, Kerouac, and a woman (not

clear which woman). I don't see the "Keroassady" neologism here, but that may

have been interpreted as mumbling by the original transcriber.

---------------begin pasted text-----------------

>> (Neil)

>> I got the penguin right here in my pocket <loud drums and

>> guitars/Neil mumbling something> -four fingers, ya know, it's just

>> the claw and me, three inches, bigger than- and

>> I said, of course, in the Metro, as they, but it hides my thumb and

>> also reveals my Greek torso, huh... At 49th, I said, Spence?

>> haven't seen him since 51st he said move two, 49th, huh. Nope, move

>> to 51st. <more mumbles/band begins playing> The waiter in 56th beat

>> the 6 seeds he had, seed law in marijuana, the only ratting I ever

>> did... And now marijuana, oooo! I was saying in the- ya alright in

>> there, (taps on the mic) on the wall, Mr Cassady? I only got twenty

>> years on ya... I knew I shoulda worn more paisley. I double-crossed

>> him- no, the son of the mAN is about to bounce the podiUM. Rimsby

>> was impressed in a short drive, huh, I said I'm serious about

>> America DeMarco, Greg, at the, uh, last year, ya know, we arrived

>> it from time. <Lovelight-ish jam> Double-parkin' winamarker(?)

>> speeder and derns(?) six days it was finally she grabbed the, of

>> course, Vics vapor rub, it's in the vaseline, that's what ended it.

>> My first child, forty, uh, two then, Charlie Valensia, on tempo(?)

>> where we had an acid test, but thirteenfifty, his father, half

>> Mexican half Irish like Anthony Quinn, so he loved me, ya know,

>> that was a triumph-pf-of us, the only tree-way I ever had,

>> Kerouac's not queer, but my present wife, the fourth, and he, it

>> was just, NewYear's Eve, sort of, uh, we was always looking for a

>> colored girl, Carol Ashty(?), finally found her, that was the last

>> time I committed suicide, I knew toward the fourth sign, across the

>> Hudson, get across this looong Missooouri that preacher said

>> <mumble> or I didn't see it, move ooon. Ummm, ha-h-haa (to

>> Lovelight.) -menopausal, don't ask me how, twenty years I fell ten

>> on the railroad and ten more for, uh, and, uh, I'll be dead a

>> thousand years see, so, if I don't do right now, right in it- Reb

>> Barker the same acid test then, use to be Al Collins all fat and

>> sassy, you know, but he was all skinny and dressed in a, uh, you

>> can work yourself inta anything, how'd he get outta it? Six days,

>> uh, six glasses a day pretty soon your system demands it thousand

>> days Orabindo(?) says you've had it old joe alcoholic, you know, we

>> used to drink together, but he went drinking. <mumbling> (music is

>> turned up a bit/Neil still mumbling random words) -a German

>> pornograpghy... Uummmbbuuuyyyyyy... He stay offer thou wake to

>> wake(?,) oh, the name of that Christ don't call on that I said

>> that's another, huh, then the next day November 1st is all souls,

>> all saints. <music> Huhuhu. <skat-singing> He did nothin' I did

>> nothin', and finally there's nothin', there wudn't nothin' he

>> wouldn't do for me and nothin' I wouldn't do for him but we sat

>> around all time doin' nothin'! Twentymilesanhourthe great four

>> wheel drift he, uh, adjusting his goggles, ya know, everybody in

>> the audience with their right foot but I can't heel and toe I'm

>> double left, huh, Dooom-dee-dee-umm, dee-

--------------------end text-------------------------------

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 12:04:07 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Alexander Beaulieu <dabeauli@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>

Subject: Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To: <960505111334_107003295@emout15.mail.aol.com>

ron

i sure would like a copy of your catalog if such a thing exists. this

looks like just the publishing co. i've been looking for some of the

harder to find texts.

can you help?

derek beaulieu

dabeauli@acs.ucalgary.ca

On Sun, 5 May 1996 RWhiteBone@AOL.COM wrote:

>

> Hello! Yes the film version of On the Road is still on and good news is that

> the book itself will be the script. Have a little more info for anyone

> interested and/or if you'd like a copy of nearly 200 new titles by Kerouac,

> Burroughs, Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Corso, di Prima,

> Baraka, Jan Kerouac, Hunter S. Thompson, Jim Carroll, His Holiness The Dalai

> Lama, Thomas Merton, Robert Lax, Robert Hunter, Lee Ranaldo, BONO, Herbert

> Huncke, James Laughlin, Andy Warhol, Edvard Munch, Seamus Heaney, Rita Dove,

> Anne Waldman, Ed Sanders, Wendell Berry, Cathal O'Searcaigh, Eithne Strong,

> John Updike,

> Ron Whitehead, E. Ethelbert Miller, Kent Fielding, Ron Seitz, David Amram,

> Leon Driskell, & numerous others from White Fields Press Published in Heaven

> Poster, Book, Chapbook, & Audio Series let me know at: Ron Whitehead, White

> Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville, Kentucky 40206 USA. phone

> 502-568-4956 or e-mail at

> RWhiteBone@aol.com or check out Web site under construction at

> http://www.neosoft.com/~whtfld/ Thanks! Ron Whitehead 5/05/96

> 11:12AM

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 14:27:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CANAPP <Canapp@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Leary's Chaos and Cyber Culture

Hi, all:

I just wanted to thank Delores Neese for sharing Dr. Leary's thoughts with

all of us on our current culture. Up until I read that, I'd always

considered myself a "hippie", considering I'm too young to have been a

Beat. But, after reading the descriptions, I find I am a Beat. It's the

only catgory that really fits me. <g>. Anyway, just wanted to thank her

again for sharing that, it's really priceless.

Regarding Dr. Leary, I guess everyone knows he is dying and plans to "take

himself out, on his own terms", when the pain from his cancer becomes too

unbearable. There are rumors all over the Net that he's going to do it

on-line and videotape the whole thing. Not sure how I feel about that.

Those of you my age, may remember in the early 1970's, the Moody Blues put

out an album, and there was a song on it titled, I think, "Seventh

Sojourn," in which they sang the lyrics, "Timothy Leary's dead," over and

over. I recently heard that the members of the group recently had

telephone conference call with Dr. Leary and sang to him over the phone,

"Timothy Leary's Alive." I thought that was really wonderful.

Thanks for your time,

Mary Beth

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 13:07:56 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Weir <weir@HALCYON.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady raps (repost)

>This was posted to the list several months back - A transcript of Cassady

>rapping w/ the Grateful Dead in July, 1967. Within the rap, one finds the

>phrase: "that was the last time I committed suicide", in the apparent context

>of a reference to three-way sex among Cassady, Kerouac, and a woman (not

>clear which woman). I don't see the "Keroassady" neologism here, but that may

>have been interpreted as mumbling by the original transcriber.

>

>---------------begin pasted text-----------------

>

>>> (Neil)

>>> I got the penguin right here in my pocket <loud drums and

>>> guitars/Neil mumbling something> -four fingers, ya know, it's just

>>> the claw and me, three inches, bigger than- and

This is a poor transcription with many errors.. check out the one that was

refered to earlier:

ftp://gdead.berkeley.edu/pub/gdead/miscellaneous/Cassady-Rap

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:14:46 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Dr. Leary's Chaos and Cyber Culture

Comments: To: CANAPP <Canapp@cris.com>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960505141327.16735B-100000@mariner.cris.com>

On Sun, 5 May 1996, CANAPP wrote:

> Regarding Dr. Leary, I guess everyone knows he is dying and plans to "take

> himself out, on his own terms", when the pain from his cancer becomes too

> unbearable. There are rumors all over the Net that he's going to do it

> on-line and videotape the whole thing. Not sure how I feel about that.

Check out:

http://www.leary.com

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:33:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: a brief history of the literary renaissance & White Fields

Press

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: a brief history of the literary renaissance & White Fields Press

Date: 96-05-05 16:31:47 EDT

From: RWhiteBone

To: whtfld@neosoft.com

Hello Dave! Here's updated Mission Statement & brief history of White Fields

Press & the literary renaissance that I think should be added to Web Site.

Mission Statement

a brief history of White Fields Press and the literary renaissance

"We would experience a little of the secret movements which are made

unnoticed in the remote places of the soul, the capricious disorder of

perceptions, the delicate life of fantasy held under the magnifying glass,

the wanderings of these thoughts and feelings out of the blue; motionless,

trackless journeys with the brain and the heart, strange activities of the

nerves, the whispering of the blood, the pleading of the bone, the entire

unconscious life of the mind." Knut Hamsun

Art is a kind of innate drive that seizes a human being and makes her or him

its instrument. The artist is not simply a person acting freely, in pursuit

of a merely private end, but one who allows art to realize its purposes

through her or his person. Artists have moods, free will, personal aims, but

as artists they are bearers of a collective humanity, carrying and shaping

the common unconscious life of the species.

so what, so what is the literary renaissance?

"The only war that matters is the war against the imagination all other wars

are sumsumed in it." Diane di Prima

The psychic makeup of creative persons attracts attention, but the actual

artistic achievement is the bedrock of inquiry when it is directed toward

understanding the artist, for the artistic disposition adheres to a charisma

that attaches to the 'office' and has collective aspects.

"To be an artist is to fail, as no other dare fail." Samuel Beckett

On April 23,1993, after meditating on Thomas Merton's grave, outside the

Abbey at Gethsemani, with Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Ron Whitehead and Kent

Fielding formed the literary renaissance, a culturally diverse, non-profit

organization, supporting a global literary community. Their goal is to create

a discourse, to give a voice, an equal voice, to those who haven't been heard

(minorities, women: all races, all people) without excluding anyone. Their

mission is inclusive: to create a place where the creative imagination is the

vital source and all people stand on and share common ground, a place where

known and unknown walk hand in hand. Their goal is to remind people,

regardless of vocation or lifestyle, of the importance of the creative

imagination in our lives. The creative imagination can open doorways, provide

salvation from an apparently hopeless existence, inspire us to achieve goals,

dreams, visions. And as stress eats at our lives, often compelling people to

intentionally end their lives in suicide, we can be reminded through the

imagination to never give up, to know that there is always another way, an

alternative path to life, to living not just a mundane life but a full and

inspired one.

Ron and Kent had formed an alliance, on February 4, 1992 at the University of

Louisville where, in fifteen months, they published four issues of THINKER

REVIEW, an international journal for the arts (including a women's poetry

anthology, THE DARK WOODS I CROSS), plus sponsored over 100 readings,

concerts and festivals including readings by Diane di Prima, Amiri Baraka,

Allen Ginsberg (over 1,500 people attended. the largest poetry reading in

Kentucky history), Rashida Ismaili, Eithne Strong, Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

Gregory Corso, Douglas Brinkley, Michael Waters, James Baker hall, Robert

Hunter, Sarah Gorham, Ray McNiese, Richard Cambridge, Jeffrey Skinner, Johnny

Payne, Maureen Morehead, Brian Foye, Michael Burkard, Michelle Boisseau, Jim

Wayne Miller, Ron Seitz, Mama Yaa, E. Ethelbert Miller and many others. Since

February 1992, they have worked sixty to eighty hours per week, with a host

of volunteers, to sponsor over 100 events per year (Moving Mystery Theatre)

including readings, talks, concerts, festivals and an international reading

series, in schools, universities, parks, galleries, clubs, theatres, and

country firehouses.

In October 1993, after two successful 24-hour non-stop music and poetry

INSOMNIACATHONS held at Twice Told Coffeehouse on Bardstown Road in

Louisville, Kentucky, the literary renaissance held INSOMNIACATHON '93, a

4-day non-stop music and poetry festival (the largest in Kentucky history)

featuring over 100 poets and more than 40 bands. The event was held at 3

different locations in Louisville: The Silo, Tewligan's and the main stage at

The Brewery's THUNDERDOME.

In 1994 the literary renaissance organized and presented INSOMNIACATHONS to

kick off New York University's (NYU hired Ron) "50 Year Celebration of The

Beat Generation" (48-hours non-stop, May 16-18, NYC), the annual "Lowell

Celebrate Kerouac Festival" (24-hours non-stop, September 21-22, Lowell, MA),

and INSOMNIACATHON '94 (4-days non-stop, September 29-October 2) in

Louisville Gardens and Twice Told Coffeehouse. White Fields Press, also

operated by Ron Whitehead and Kent Fielding, in support of the literary

renaissance and the global literary community, has published 150 titles in

its Published in Heaven Poster, Book, Chapbook, South Africa, Hunter S.

Thompson, and Audio Series. They have over 50 new titles scheduled for

production in 1996 pushing total titles published by year's end to 200. The

two organizations, White Fields Press and the literary renaissance, had been

kept alive by Ron, since the beginning, by the seat of his pants. By

bartering and bargaining with poets, writers, musicians, bands, and printers

he created ways to produce each new event and publish each new title. He

faced overwhelming odds and had near death, near failure, dark night of the

soul experiences several times in his struggle to keep the literary

renaissance and White Fields Press alive. In 1995 Gary Oleson and Waiting for

Godot helped sustain Ron's efforts. In December 1995 David Hatfield, Houston

Texas, longtime supporter and friendof Ron's literary endeavors, joined

forces with Ron. David is a poet, writer, & lover of literature by nature, a

businessperson by necessity. The new partnership is striving to expand the

mission of White Fields Press and the literary renaissance while maintaining

the original goals and vision. The intent is to support, in every way

possible, the global literary community. Kent Fielding, still active as

editor, has gone on to be NorthWest Manager by opening a WFP/tlr office in

Fairbanks, Alaska.

Knowledge, from the inception of Modernism (& thru Post-Modernism to The

Ocean of Consciousness), is reorganized, redefined through literature, art

and music. The genres are changing, the canons are exploding, as is culture.

The mythopoetics, the privileged sense of sight, of modern, contemporary,

avant-garde poets, musicians, artists, are examples of art forms of a

society, a culture, a civilization, a world, in which humanity lives, not

securely in cities nor innocently in the country, but on the apocalyptic,

simultaneous edge of a new realm of being and understanding. The mythopoet,

female and male, returns to the role of prophet-seer by creating myths that

resonate in the minds of readers, myths that speak with the authority of the

ancient myths, myths that are gifts from the shadow.

RANT for the literary renaissance!

UPCOMING EVENTS:

Release of Ron Whitehead's I WILL NOT BOW DOWN: Selected Poems 1990-95.

Available City Lights, Tower Books, order thru bookstores or direct from

Hozomeen Press (Mystic, NYC, Westerly), Box 174, Mystic, CT 06355 or

HozmnPress@aol.com

RANT for the literary renaissance & The Majic Bus present RANT eats New

Orleans 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON August 16-18 at The

Howlin Wolf Club & The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center. For performance

& event info call Ron Whitehead at 502-568-4956 (RWHiteBone@aol.com) or

Douglas Brinkley at 504-286-6724.

Ron Whitehead Europe Reading Tour, September.

Hunter S. Thompson & Douglas Brinkley visit Louisville then travel on with

Ron Whitehead to RocknRoll Hall of Fame (Cleveland) for Hunter talk then on

to NYC for Modern Library Celebrity Bash Celebrating Modern Library Release

of 25th Anniversary Special Edition of Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:32:58 +1100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Re: Cassady-Kerouac

Regarding the term Keroassady I think Neal would've noticed the word acid in

the name, giving him more reason to use it at a Grateful Dead concert. For

a description of one of his performances check out issue number 6 of Spit in

the Ocean.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:06:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Beat writing...

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960505141327.16735B-100000@mariner.cris.com>

Hi again..

I had a really groovy experience tonight..I just sat down, and I had so

much to think about, and so much running through my mind, so I just

pulled up MSWord and started to type and type and type and not bother to

go back and fix little things unless I wanted to and just run on and run

on. It was just a complete outpouring of my mind onto paper, like some

of Neal's letters, so packed and so full of stuff...wow! It was quite an

experience to actually do, to let it just happen and flow...has anyone

else had this similiar experience? Where they just sat down and WROTE?

I'd be interested in discussing this further...

jonathan

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"I can't use contractions..."

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:04:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Dr. Leary's Chaos and Cyber Culture

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960505141327.16735B-100000@mariner.cris.com>

In regards to Dr. Leary's classification of persons, I don't think it

fits. I don't think you can classify generations and groups like you

would classify phylum and species---it just doesn't work. There aren't

clearly defined lines, they're blurred together, and if one begins to

classify oneself one becomes the stereotype classification, because

that's what his classification was, over-stereotyping. For instance, a

friend of mine is called a hippie all the time because she wears long,

flowy, "hippie-like" garments and wears Birkenstocks. Unfortunately,

nothing could be further from the truth-- she is as obnoxious a punk as

Sid Vicious and Johnny Rotten combined-- but she thinks she is a hippie

because that's what she has been stereotyped as. Even though she is

really rotten, obnoxious, and an exhibitionist brat. But anyways, back

to my point-- Dr. Leary's classification over-classified people. If he

had not given dates, drugs, and various physical objects and had instead

identified just identified commmon values and feelings about things, that

would be much different, because then it would represent the group. To

be Beat was to feel something, to feel that beat BUG that gets under you

skin and makes you just wanna write, write, write. I get that bug,

sometimes, and I can't stop writing. That's a Beat characteristic, I

think. Promoting universal love and universal acceptance seems to be a

Hippie characteristic, but I don't know enough about either to say for

total certainty. And Leary's garbage about "Cyberpunks" is just that,

garbage. Cyberpunk is a term overused by the sluttish media in reference

to people who're think they're counter-culture but are really just trendy

when they use the internet. Arghh...I am getting really fed up with all

this "cyber-culture" crap, you know. I saw this book, "How to Mutate and

Take Over the World" by R.U. Sirius and St. Jude, but it's not a book,

see, it's an exploded post novel, or basically just a collection of

garbage writing. I opened it and I didn't really like what I read,

because it garbage. I guess they thought maybe it was kinda Beat to

write without thinking but it wasn't spontaneous prose, because

spontaneous prose has a train of thought that you can follow, and I don't

think this book did. Now, I haven't read it yet, but I am going to try

and read it and see if my fears are true. Anyways, all this

cyber-garbage, how the media makes everything out to be so sensational

and interesting and the World Wide Web is this and the WWW is that and

all this just garbage that isn't true and how the interent is or isn't

censored and just a lot of stuff that is all nonsense in someways. Yeah,

the internet explosion is good, in some ways, but a lot of the internet

is empty. For instance, mailing lists are really excellent, instant

communication that's easy and fast...but some of the stuff you see on the

Web is such nonsense you just want to puke, and cyber this and cyber that

and ERGGHH>..

oh well..

jonathan

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"I can't use contractions..."

On Sun, 5 May 1996, CANAPP wrote:

> Hi, all:

>

> I just wanted to thank Delores Neese for sharing Dr. Leary's thoughts with

> all of us on our current culture. Up until I read that, I'd always

> considered myself a "hippie", considering I'm too young to have been a

> Beat. But, after reading the descriptions, I find I am a Beat. It's the

> only catgory that really fits me. <g>. Anyway, just wanted to thank her

> again for sharing that, it's really priceless.

>

> Regarding Dr. Leary, I guess everyone knows he is dying and plans to "take

> himself out, on his own terms", when the pain from his cancer becomes too

> unbearable. There are rumors all over the Net that he's going to do it

> on-line and videotape the whole thing. Not sure how I feel about that.

>

> Those of you my age, may remember in the early 1970's, the Moody Blues put

> out an album, and there was a song on it titled, I think, "Seventh

> Sojourn," in which they sang the lyrics, "Timothy Leary's dead," over and

> over. I recently heard that the members of the group recently had

> telephone conference call with Dr. Leary and sang to him over the phone,

> "Timothy Leary's Alive." I thought that was really wonderful.

>

> Thanks for your time,

>

> Mary Beth

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:12:36 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat writing...

>jonathan wrote:

>I had a really groovy experience tonight..I just sat down, and I had so

>much to think about, and so much running through my mind, so I just

>pulled up MSWord and started to type and type and type and not bother to

>go back and fix little things unless I wanted to and just run on and run

>on. It was just a complete outpouring of my mind onto paper, like some

>of Neal's letters, so packed and so full of stuff...wow! It was quite an

>experience to actually do, to let it just happen and flow...has anyone

>else had this similiar experience? Where they just sat down and WROTE?

>I'd be interested in discussing this further...

Great to hear of your experience! Sounds like it has changed you in some

way. Keep on.

I've done a bit of writing that way. I'll sit down, turn on the computer,

set up a page and just start writing. Take the first thought to enter my

mind and just go with it till I finish a page. That's it. One page flowing

out from somewhere onto the screen. Started a few years ago and do so every

once in a while. One screen's worth of stream stuff.

I remember reading somewhere recently that Jack would carry a small pocket

notebook around and some of his poetry, the blues stuff, SF and Mex City,

were written to fit a page in the little book. Form limited in size by what

written on! Computer screens, pocket notebooks.

Some people see spontaneous writing as just an exercise but I strongly

disagree with them. The letting it go, letting it come out as it does, the

more you do it the easier it gets, like with most things. There's the craft

of writing, which is important, and then there's the pure

creative/spiritual side of it which to me is where the real excitement

lies. The spontaneous writing, when we really allow the spontaneity without

our self critic looking over our shoulder at each line we write, allows

that pure creative/spiritual aspect to surface more often.

Keep letting it flow.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 09:27:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <robert.peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat writing...

the craft

>of writing, which is important, and then there's the pure

>creative/spiritual side of it which to me is where the real excitement

>lies. The spontaneous writing, when we really allow the spontaneity without

>our self critic looking over our shoulder at each line we write, allows

>that pure creative/spiritual aspect to surface more often.

>

This may be therapeutic, but if you intend to publish, don't torture your

readers with every random thought that pops out of your head. Stream of

consciousness is prose that suggests thought at a preverbal level, but in

order to do that, you must edit carefully and construct that consciousness.

Read Joyce's _Ulysses_ and _Finnegan's Wake_ as well as Faulkner's _The

Sound and the Fury_ (esp. the first two sections).

I think most writers try to rid themselves of the "self critic" (I know I

do), but it is much more difficult than it sounds. When it happens, go!

But when you're done, revise, and when you're done revising, edit.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:44:15 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady-Kerouac

Jon Schwartz wrote:

>

> Hi John H.!

>

> Thanks for the tip on the new edition of "The First Third." Do you or does

> anyone have price and format info on it?

>

> Best regards to all,

>

> Jon

>

TFT is in print from City Lights Books and is usually available at the

big superstores like Border's and Barnes & Noble. Shop by phone!

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:48:18 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide

Dear John I.

The Cassady Rap under discussion can be found at the following URL:

ftp://gdead.berkeley.edu/pub/gdead/miscellaneous/Cassady-Rap

Later,

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:54:39 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Keroassady...

Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

>

> I found some awesome books in a used book store today. I was

> wondering what you guys think about the prices. $25 for a first edition

> of Visions of Cody, hardcover. $30 for a 1rst ed. of Maggie Cassidy,

> soft. And $60 for the 1rst british ed. of Maggie Cassidy, 1rst hardcover

> ed. I didnt buy these but i did buy Satori in Paris & Pic, Grace beats

> Karma (finally, ive found some of neals writings), On the Road (a copy

> for my brother), No nature (Snyder), Look Homeward, Angel (Wolfe), and a

> book that contains poems by Bukowski and Phillip Lamantia. All in all it

> was a very successful outing!

> Goodnight

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> matt

>

$25 for 1st ed. VOC is fantastic. Buy it immediately. I've seen it for

$100. MC in softcover isn't worth a penny more than $30 nowadays. It

depends on the condition. If it's perfect and you want it, get it.

Don't know about the British edition.

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 10:40:46 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat writing...

Jonathan, that is supposedly the way Whitman wrote the first draft of Leaves of

Grass. This first non-stream writing is published in a seperate Penguin edition

with an interesting forward by Malcom Cowley about "trance writing." Give it a

look.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 14:14:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: I'm moving...

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <009A1EC0.F2A51420.26@kenyon.edu>

Im going home today and my email is changing, but i want to stay on the list.

Could someone please send me info to : lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU

i guess ill just subscribe again. but i forgot how to, so id love it if

someone sent me the information to the above address. Thanks a lot!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

matt

"Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules."

-William Blake

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 16:39:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Michael E. Frank" <ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Enjoy This

Hi;

Just a few thoughts on "Chaos & Cyber Culture" List...I mailed the list to a

friend and he commented "I seem to fit in all the categories but looking back

it seems (the list) a bit shallower than I remember". I tend to agree

although I can only identify with the years ' 54 - ' 75 since I opted for

the "rat-race" in ' 72 when my daughter was born. No regrets but I don't

remember anything after ' 75. Since the counter-culture of the "beats" &

sixties weren't created in a vacuum I thought it might be historically

interesting to regress the list to include "The Lost Generation"

(ex-patriates, G. Stein, Paris, etc.) Surrealists (auto-writing, painting

etc), dada, etc. as far back as one can create a list of the genealogy of

rebellion and counter-culture. Expand it to include anything of creative

interest that Leary didn't envision. Also, since i'm new to this discussion,

I apoligise to anyone infuriated with my leaving (expanding) the Beat topic.

Let me know if I'm not relevant to the subject matter.

>See where you fit in the scheme from Toimothy Leary's Chaos & Cyber

Culture, Berkeley, CA: Ronin, 1994.

Evolution of Counter Culture

Beats (1950-1965)

Mood: Cool, laid back.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Artistic, literate, hip. Interested in poetry, drugs,

jazz.

Attitude: Sarcastic, cynical.

Brain-Tech: Low-tech, but early psychedelic explorers.

Intellectual viewpoint: Well-informed, skeptical, street-smart.

Humanist Quotient: tolerant of race and gay rights, but often male

chauvinist.

Politics: Bohemian, anti-establishment.

Cosmic View: Romantic pessimism, Buddhist cosmology.

Hippies (1965-1975)

Mood: Blissed out.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Earthy, horny, free-love oriented. pot, LSD, acid rock.

Attitude: Peaceful, idealistic.

Brain-tech: Spychedelic, but anti-high-tech.

Intellectual Viewpoint: Know-it-all, anti-intellectual.

Humanist Quotient: Male chauvinist, sometimes sexits, but socially

tolerant and global village visionary.

Politics: Classless, irreverent, passivist, but occasionally activist.

Cosmit View: Acceptance of chaotic nature of universe, but via Hindu

passivity. Unscientific, occult minded, intuitive

etc. etc. etc..

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 18:44:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MS GAYLE M ALSTROM <gm_alstrom@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: Mail List

Please remove my name from your mailing list.

gm_alstrom@prodigy.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 23:06:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: The only cows for me are the mad ones

I can't quite jibe Leary's description of Beats with Beat writing.

E.g.:

>Mood: Cool, laid back.

the beat principals strike me more as leaning into rather than laid back,

with the possible exception of Burroughs

>Attitude: Sarcastic, cynical.

No. But then again, I'm thinking about the writers and writing, he's talking

about the culture.

>Cosmic View: Romantic pessimism, Buddhist cosmology.

Again, I'm not sure about the pessimism. Off the top of my head, I can't

remember reading any pessimistic Kerouac; sad, tortured, yes, but not

pessimistic. Ginsberg, no - in fact, the two cosmic views selected by Leary

seem exactly opposed. But again, Burroughs, yes.

Where's the beatific in Leary's summary?

Just thinkin' out loud......and pouting 'cause I wanted to see Wm. T.

Vollmann in Chicago today, and didn't get to....

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 21:40:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Beat writing...

In-Reply-To: <v01530500adb343f59b90@[204.181.15.86]>

Exactly...you just let it flow...much like the style that On the Road was

written in only moreso, more like Catcher in The Rye, which is mocked

spontaneous prose, the spontaneous prose of Holden Caulfield, but done by

Salinger...

drink deeply,

jonathan

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"I can't use contractions..."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 04:11:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: celestine prophecy

the book 'celestine prophecy' was mentioned on this list lately. i'd never

heard about it (i'm in the uk) but at the time it was mentioned, i met a white

south-african girl in spain who had read it and recommended it quite highly.

sooo, i went out and bought it, just finished reading it and would like some

off-list ideas from beat readers who have also read it.

so anyone out there read it please e-mail me on

100106.1102@compuserve.com or joe.carney@unn.ac.uk

cheers

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:57:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Michael E. Frank" <ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Enjoy This

Hi;

Just a few thoughts on "Chaos & Cyber Culture" List...I mailed the list to a

friend and he commented "I seem to fit in all the categories but looking back

it seems (the list) a bit shallower than I remember". I tend to agree

although I can only identify with the years ' 54 - ' 75 since I opted for

the "rat-race" in ' 72 when my daughter was born. No regrets but I don't

remember anything after ' 75. Since the counter-culture of the "beats" &

sixties weren't created in a vacuum I thought it might be historically

interesting to regress the list to include "The Lost Generation"

(ex-patriates, G. Stein, Paris, etc.) Surrealists (auto-writing, painting

etc), dada, etc. as far back as one can create a list of the genealogy of

rebellion and counter-culture. Expand it to include anything of creative

interest that Leary didn't envision. Also, since i'm new to this discussion,

I apoligise to anyone infuriated with my leaving (expanding) the Beat topic.

Let me know if I'm not relevant to the subject matter.

>See where you fit in the scheme from Toimothy Leary's Chaos & Cyber

Culture, Berkeley, CA: Ronin, 1994.

Evolution of Counter Culture

Beats (1950-1965)

Mood: Cool, laid back.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Artistic, literate, hip. Interested in poetry, drugs,

jazz.

Attitude: Sarcastic, cynical.

Brain-Tech: Low-tech, but early psychedelic explorers.

Intellectual viewpoint: Well-informed, skeptical, street-smart.

Humanist Quotient: tolerant of race and gay rights, but often male

chauvinist.

Politics: Bohemian, anti-establishment.

Cosmic View: Romantic pessimism, Buddhist cosmology.

Hippies (1965-1975)

Mood: Blissed out.

Aesthetics-Erotics: Earthy, horny, free-love oriented. pot, LSD, acid rock.

Attitude: Peaceful, idealistic.

Brain-tech: Spychedelic, but anti-high-tech.

Intellectual Viewpoint: Know-it-all, anti-intellectual.

Humanist Quotient: Male chauvinist, sometimes sexits, but socially

tolerant and global village visionary.

Politics: Classless, irreverent, passivist, but occasionally activist.

Cosmit View: Acceptance of chaotic nature of universe, but via Hindu

passivity. Unscientific, occult minded, intuitive

etc. etc. etc..

============== End part 2 ============================

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 08:48:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Look Homeward, Matt.

Hello folks. William Miller here. Back on the list after an absence.

Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

>

> I found some awesome books in a used book store today. I was

> wondering what you guys think about the prices. $25 for a first edition

> of Visions of Cody, hardcover. $30 for a 1rst ed. of Maggie Cassidy,

> soft. And $60 for the 1rst british ed. of Maggie Cassidy, 1rst hardcover

> ed. I didnt buy these but i did buy Satori in Paris & Pic, Grace beats

> Karma (finally, ive found some of neals writings), On the Road (a copy

> for my brother), No nature (Snyder), Look Homeward, Angel (Wolfe), and a

> book that contains poems by Bukowski and Phillip Lamantia. All in all it

> was a very successful outing!

> Goodnight

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> matt

Matt, I'm interested.... did you buy a 1st edition of Look Homeward Angel, or

not. Please e-mail me directly and let me know if you bought a 1st, and if

so, what you paid for it. Being part of the best used bookstore in Wolfe's

hometown (the setting for most of LHA) I am always interested in knowing what

LHA is fetching.

Thanks.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:11:44 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Peter R. McGahey" <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Salinger

Someone mentioned Salinger - what does everyone think of him in relation

to the Beats? They were contemporaries, but Salinger did what Jack may have

wanted to do, get away from the screaming fans. I think that Salinger's

explorations of Buddhism, particularly in his good works (Franny & Zooey,

Raise High . . .) would put him in some connection even though it is rather

tenuous. Why was Buddhism such a rave thing then? Eliot et al were into

Hindu etc because the Bagavad Gita (mis-spelled, I know) was recently

translated.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:42:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Visions of Cody - Revisited

I've finally gotten around to reading Kerouac's "Visions of Cody"... It's my

first time tackling this book (although not the first Kerouac book I've read)

and I am simply amazed at the amount of detail contained within... For example,

the book opens with a description of a diner and everything in it:

"Grill is ancient and dark and emits an odor which is really succulent, like you

would expect from the black hide of an old ham or an old pastrami beef -- The

lunchcart has stools with smooth slickwood tops -- there are wooden drawers for

where you find the long loaves of sandwich bread. The countermen: either Greeks

or have big red drink noses." (p.3)

Incredible stuff. I often find myself going over certain passages again in an

attempt to absorb all the details... Another thing that blows me away about this

book, is the sense of history Kerouac gives to the simplest descriptions....

"...Cody imagined Watson slept like the little boys in fleecy nightgowns in

mattress advertisements of the Saturday Evening Post, which he realized now he

was confusing with a rubber tire ad that shows a little boy wandering out of bed

with a candle on New Year's Eve but expresses the same tender comfort of angels

and vision of American children (ah poor Cody who'd seen this vision in those

soaked magazines that have been dried by the sun and stand on tattered edges

among weeds and cundrums of backlots)," (p. 62)

I think the power of Kerouac's prose is his ability to create such a vivid

picture of what he's talking about/describing in your mind... like a little

movie that only you can imagine... I've only read about 90 or so pages and it

find it to be a captivating read. wow.

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 11:02:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Timothy Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody - Revisited

> I've finally gotten around to reading Kerouac's "Visions of Cody"... It's

>my

>first time tackling this book (although not the first Kerouac book I've read)

>and I am simply amazed at the amount of detail contained within... For example,

>the book opens with a description of a diner and everything in it:

>

>"Grill is ancient and dark and emits an odor which is really succulent, like

>you

>would expect from the black hide of an old ham or an old pastrami beef -- The

>lunchcart has stools with smooth slickwood tops -- there are wooden drawers for

>where you find the long loaves of sandwich bread. The countermen: either Greeks

>or have big red drink noses." (p.3)

>

>Incredible stuff. I often find myself going over certain passages again in an

>attempt to absorb all the details... Another thing that blows me away about

>this

>book, is the sense of history Kerouac gives to the simplest descriptions....

>

>"...Cody imagined Watson slept like the little boys in fleecy nightgowns in

>mattress advertisements of the Saturday Evening Post, which he realized now he

>was confusing with a rubber tire ad that shows a little boy wandering out of

>bed

>with a candle on New Year's Eve but expresses the same tender comfort of angels

>and vision of American children (ah poor Cody who'd seen this vision in those

>soaked magazines that have been dried by the sun and stand on tattered edges

>among weeds and cundrums of backlots)," (p. 62)

>

>I think the power of Kerouac's prose is his ability to create such a vivid

>picture of what he's talking about/describing in your mind... like a little

>movie that only you can imagine... I've only read about 90 or so pages and it

>find it to be a captivating read. wow.

>

>bfn,

>JDL

Only 90 pages so far...Keep going (though I doubt I have to exhort you to

do this.

Your points are good. These things are why kerouac is a great writer and

has lasted and will last. I think the classic writers put these details

in. They do two things at least which are provide the details of life in

their time--including seemingly mundane things like drawers in a diner

where the long loaves of bread are kept, and also proovide their personal

stories and thoughts going on with the characters in context of their real

world.

It's like taking a little chunk of existence of certain times and lifes and

laminating it or bronzing it or somehow making it available for posterity.

It is not inlike a portrait or photograph. The writing you described above

is an example of kerouac's sketching method of writing he developed as

inspired by his architect friend (Ed White? Alan Temko?--I can't remember

whom, but I do know it was the one who had his letters from kerouac

recently published in Missouri Review). The architect friend kept a pad

and when he saw buildings of interest to him he pulled it out and sketched

them. kerouac borrowed this technique and puled out a notepad and

"sketched" the things he saw--eg a diner. Much of the first part of

Visions of Cody is this sketching. Parts of this book were first published

in a book called "The Moderns" edited by LeRoi Jones (who now calls himself

Amiri Baraka and hangs out with Farakan). The samples from Visions of Cody

in The Moderns was called New York Scenes. Of interest is that if you read

the published Visions of Cody and compare it to the part published as New

York Scenes you see that Jones added a sentence or two to Kerouacs writing

that make overt sociopolitical points. Interesting how Kerouac always

fought to not have his writings snipped by editors but in this case

something was added to his writing. Wonder what Kerouac thought of this.

If you're on page 90 now just wait. Whereas so far you've read strong

descriptive prose, albeit dense in words and sentence structure, you will

come to some wild and wooly rivers in the next few hundred pages. The

first couple sections are downright realistic and down to Earth, when the

third part (I hope I am remembering the sections correctly--I haven't read

the book in years and don't have a copy of it), the third section is a

transcript of a tape recording which ostensibly would be more realism but

it turns out to be more surreal. And then the fourth part called imitation

of the tape moves into the realm of pure thought and free association and

mind wandering--full of the beauty of language and imagery of an educated

mind (a multi-lingual one at that).

So the book moves from realistic to surrealistic (for lack of a better term

I'm using surrealistic).

Well, you get the idea, I think I'm becoming (as if I haven't been the

whole time) boring. It many ways the book is like Dr. Sax with

straightforward descriptions of real life (as straightforward, that is, as

Kerouac's dense prose allows) combined with the hyperrealistic nongrounded

in objective reality parts. They combine to create a whole.

Also I am wondering if anyone has any info as to what was included in the

initial 1960 new Directions abridged version of Visions of Cody? Did they

include the new york scenes part of the book but leave out the more far-out

parts such as the Imitation of the Tape section? If so it reminds me of

the initial offer made to Kerouac concerning Dr. Sax where the potential

publisher (Wyn?) suggested the fantastic parts of Sax be removed to leave a

narrative of boyhood.

Zai jian,

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:07:56 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: The only cows for me are the mad ones

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 6 May 1996 23:06:11 -0400 from <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

I think Leary is right about a certain pessimism inherent in Kerouac.

Kerouac was particularly pessimistic about the fate of America or the

loss of America's promise. He referred to the later half of the 20th

century in America as a period of "Late Empire." Look at Lonesome

Traveler--"the woods are full of wardens." Ginsberg is more optimistic,

if only because he expects some kind of miracle, some redemption through

tender heartedness. Nevertheless, there's a lot of pain and fear and

disappointment about America in all the major poems.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:34:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Salinger

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 7 May 1996 10:11:44 EDT from

<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

I think there are some connections. In fact, I once wrote some notes for an ar

ticle comparing K and Salinger. Hmmm! Maybe, I'll see if I can dig them up.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:33:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody - Revisited

This is true Kerouac. Wouldn't it be great to hear Jack read this book.I

read or heard somewhere that he thought this was his best book. Does anyone

else have opinions about that? My 14 year old son was talking about food one

day and I had him read that very passage where he talks about Hectors deli

and he was smiling all the way through it. Phil

At 11:42 AM 5/7/96 EST, you wrote:

> I've finally gotten around to reading Kerouac's "Visions of Cody"...

It's my

>first time tackling this book (although not the first Kerouac book I've read)

>and I am simply amazed at the amount of detail contained within... For example,

>the book opens with a description of a diner and everything in it:

>

>"Grill is ancient and dark and emits an odor which is really succulent,

like you

>would expect from the black hide of an old ham or an old pastrami beef -- The

>lunchcart has stools with smooth slickwood tops -- there are wooden drawers for

>where you find the long loaves of sandwich bread. The countermen: either Greeks

>or have big red drink noses." (p.3)

>

>Incredible stuff. I often find myself going over certain passages again in an

>attempt to absorb all the details... Another thing that blows me away about

this

>book, is the sense of history Kerouac gives to the simplest descriptions....

>

>"...Cody imagined Watson slept like the little boys in fleecy nightgowns in

>mattress advertisements of the Saturday Evening Post, which he realized now he

>was confusing with a rubber tire ad that shows a little boy wandering out

of bed

>with a candle on New Year's Eve but expresses the same tender comfort of angels

>and vision of American children (ah poor Cody who'd seen this vision in those

>soaked magazines that have been dried by the sun and stand on tattered edges

>among weeds and cundrums of backlots)," (p. 62)

>

>I think the power of Kerouac's prose is his ability to create such a vivid

>picture of what he's talking about/describing in your mind... like a little

>movie that only you can imagine... I've only read about 90 or so pages and it

>find it to be a captivating read. wow.

>

>bfn,

>JDL

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:10:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Salinger

In-Reply-To: <960507.101447.EDT.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

beatniks...that bugs me, ya know? It just seems so degrading to Jack and

Allen and Neal and others...anyways...Salinger's relationship to the

Beats, I think, is really strong in "Catcher in the Rye" with Holden

Caulfield's exasperation with materialism and J.D. Salinger's simulated

spontaneous prose and the entire attitude of the book, that is, how

someone actually thinks and talks...

jonathan

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"What kind of sordid business are you on now? I mean, man,

whither goest thou? Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in

the night?"

-On the Road, Jack Kerouac

On Tue, 7 May 1996, Peter R. McGahey wrote:

> Someone mentioned Salinger - what does everyone think of him in relation

> to the Beats? They were contemporaries, but Salinger did what Jack may have

> wanted to do, get away from the screaming fans. I think that Salinger's

> explorations of Buddhism, particularly in his good works (Franny & Zooey,

> Raise High . . .) would put him in some connection even though it is rather

> tenuous. Why was Buddhism such a rave thing then? Eliot et al were into

> Hindu etc because the Bagavad Gita (mis-spelled, I know) was recently

> translated.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 18:12:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody - Revisited

Timothy Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>,Internet writes:

Also I am wondering if anyone has any info as to what was included in the

initial 1960 new Directions abridged version of Visions of Cody? Did they

include the new york scenes part of the book but leave out the more far-out

parts such as the Imitation of the Tape section? If so it reminds me of

the initial offer made to Kerouac concerning Dr. Sax where the potential

publisher (Wyn?) suggested the fantastic parts of Sax be removed to leave a

narrative of boyhood.

Yeah, I've heard of Kerouac's sketching technique.. didn't he first use it on

"October in the Railroad Earth"? Not sure... Hmm.. the copy of "Visions of Cody"

that I have (a very recent version) has a great article in the back written by

Allen Ginsberg called "Visions of the Great Rememberer," where he annotates much

of the book... I've been reading some of them as I come across them.. he makes

some very interesting observations...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 18:16:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody - Revisited

Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>,Internet writes:

This is true Kerouac. Wouldn't it be great to hear Jack read this book.I

read or heard somewhere that he thought this was his best book. Does anyone

else have opinions about that? My 14 year old son was talking about food one

day and I had him read that very passage where he talks about Hectors deli

and he was smiling all the way through it. Phil

I agree with you that it would be great to hear Kerouac read this book and in

fact, in the Jack Kerouac collection of his spoken word stuff there is some

passages from "Visions of Cody" that he recorded... well, there's the most

famous bit that he did on the Steve Allen Show where he mixed "Cody" with "On

the Road" but there are also some bits he did called, "Visions of Neal: Neal and

the Three Stooges" which, I believe, are from "Visions of Cody," but I can't be

sure.. I'd have to check the booklet again...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:37:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

>From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US> wrote:

>

>oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

>discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

>beatniks...that bugs me, ya know?

The columnist (I think it was Herb Caen of the San Francisco examiner)

coined the phrase "beatnik" as a put-down, to imply leftist, "pink," or

communist tendencies. (I suppose based on "sputnik.") It was during the

Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

Hecht's memoir, "Child of the Century," but couldn't locate it in the book

later on.

By the way, anyone care to discuss parallels between Kerouac and F. Scott

Fitzgerald? They had similar styles, and "This Side of Paradise" reminded

me of Kerouac's writing. They had much else in common, too: Catholicism,

alcoholism, early death. Both also made frequent allusions to death and the

supernatural, associating sex and death. Why does the word "mournful" occur

so frequently in Jack's writing? What function does it serve? Not that I

expect definitive answers; but I'd like help in framing the questions

better.

gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:48:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@UBC" <sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Salinger

In-Reply-To: <960507.101447.EDT.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Tue, 7 May 1996, Peter R. McGahey wrote:

> Someone mentioned Salinger - what does everyone think of him in relation

> to the Beats? They were contemporaries, but Salinger did what Jack may have

> wanted to do, get away from the screaming fans. I think that Salinger's

> explorations of Buddhism, particularly in his good works (Franny & Zooey,

> Raise High . . .) would put him in some connection even though it is rather

> tenuous. Why was Buddhism such a rave thing then? Eliot et al were into

> Hindu etc because the Bagavad Gita (mis-spelled, I know) was recently

> translated.

Among critics, esp. in the late fifties the Salinger/Kerouac comparison

was a commonplace. See f.ex. Leslie Fiedler's essay "The Eye of

Innocence", which is mostly a discussion of Twain and Salinger's

figuration of the child, but which brings in Kerouac as a negative

comparison in the discussion of what Fiedler calls the Good Bad Boy.

Here's some of it:

"In Catcher in the Rye, Holden comes to the dead end of ineffectual revolt

in a breakdown out of which he is impelled to fight his way by the Good

Good Girl, in the guise of the Pure Little Sister, from whose hands he

passes directly into the hands of psychiatrist. In On the Road, whose

characters heal themselves as they go by play-therapy, the inevitable

adjustment to society is only promised, not delivered; we must wait for

the next installment to tell how the Square Hipster makes good by acting

out his role (with jazz accompaniment) in a New York night club, or even,

perhaps, how he has sold his confessions of a Bad Boy to the movies.

[...]

To be sure it is Zen Buddhism rather than Unitarianism or neo-Orthodoxy

which attracts the Square Hipster and New Yorker contributor alike,

binding together as improbable co-religionists Salinger and Kerouac;

indeed, if James Dean had not yet discovered this particular kick before

he smashed up in a sports car, it is because he died just a little too

soon. Past the bongo drums and the fiddling around with sculpture it was

waiting for him, the outsider's religion in a day when there is room

inside for the outsider himself, provided he, too, goes "to the church of

his choice""

Another critic, Dan Wakefield, was even more vicious in his comparison:

"Moral senility can come at any age, or need not come at all, and we have

recently borne painful witness through the howls of the writers of the

"Beat Generation" that moral senility can afflict quite young men and

women. This group dismisses the search of Salinger on the grounds that he

is "slick" (he writes for The New Yorker, and as any sensitive person can

tell, it is printed on a slick type of paper). But now that the roar from

the motorcycles of Jack Kerouac's imagination has begun to subside, we

find that the highly advertised search of the Beat has ended, at least

literarily, not with love but with heroin. The appropriate nature of the

symbol can be seen in the fact that the physiological experience of

heroin is one of negation (it is the ultimate tranquilizer), releasing

the user during the duration of his "high" from the drive for sex, for

love and for answers. Fortunately for the rest of us, the characters in

Salinger's fiction have found no such simple formula as a "fix" for

relief from their troubles.

Sixteen-year-old Holden Caulfield was (just like Jack Kerouac) sickened

by the material values and the inhumanity of the world around him. That

sickness, however, marked the beginning and not the end of the search of

Salinger's characters to find an order of morality and a possibility of

love within the world." (From "The Search For Love")

Let us not forget that Salinger himself has commented on the Beats in one

of his stories, "Seymour: An Introduction", albeit through the words of

his narrator character, Buddy Glass. Critics have discussed at length how

closely Salinger identified himself with this narrator - he certainly

gave him some of his own biography. Here is the quote (Buddy is talking

to his imagined reader):

"In this entre-nous spirit, then, old confidant, before we join the

others, the grounded everywhere, including, I'm sure, the middle-aged

hot-rodders who insist on zooming us to the moon, the Dharma Bums, the

makers of cigarette filters for thinking men, the Beat and the Sloppy and

the Petulant, the chosen cultists, all the lofty experts who know so well

what we should or shouldn't do with our poor little sex organs, all the

bearded, proud, unlettered young men and unskilled guitarists and

Zen-killers and incorporated aethetic Teddy boys who look down their

thoroughly unenlightened noses at this splendid planet where (please

don't shut me up) Kilroy, Christ, and Shakespeare all stopped - before we

join these others, I privately say to you, old friend (unto you, really,

I'm afraid), please accept from me this unpretentious bouquet of very

early-blooming parentheses: (((())))." (p. 97-98 Little & Brown ed.)

That, I believe, is what is nowadays called a rant, and a damn fine one, too

- though of course elitist and borderline psychotic....

Regards,

Bent Sorensen

Visiting Grad. Student, Dept. of English, UBC

Ph.D. Student, Aalborg University, Denmark

<http://hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 22:19:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bent Sorensen <sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Robert Hunter and Kerouac

Thanks to a tip off Levi's Beat News page I checked Grateful Dead

lyricist, Robert Hunter's homepage. Among lots of amazing stuff I found

this piece with direct Beat relevance. I hope you enjoy it and that

Robert doesn't mind my lifting it. Check out the rest of at the URL

following this:

http://grateful.dead.net/RobertHunterArchive.html/files/journal/6journal_

4.30.96.html

> Journal 4/24 - 4/30 1996

>

> 4/24

>

> Got a call from the Kerouac estate today about me doing a two hour

> taping of selections from 'Visions of Cody.' Did a short reading for

> a tape that will be released along with a lot of other readers

> including Allen Ginsberg, Hunter Thompson, Wm.Burroughs, Patti

> Smith, Jim Carroll, and, yes, Johnny Depp. Many others I don't have

> on the tip of my mind right now. I'll add 'em when my memory is

> refreshed.

>

> Reason they want me is, I got the Cassady roll down. I know how he'd

> say things. He lived with a bunch of us at the Waverley Street house

> in Palo Alto for awhile, during the Acid Test days, and I spent a

> good amount of time being talked at by the old boy. Reckon I could

> do it good as anyone, better'n most. Harumph. Yas.

>

> The first tape I mentioned was an interesting trip. I looked and

> looked for something to read and couldn't settle on anything. So

> what I did was, I woke up the next morning with a good idea. I

> hopped out of bed, grabbed 'Visions of Cody' and a portable DAT

> machine, got in my car and drove down to the parking lot of Amazing

> Grace Music, which is situated in an island between two busy lanes

> of traffic. I opened all the windows, put a tape I have of Jack

> singing "Foggy London Town" in be-bop scat on the car's tape

> machine, and read a random section of "Visions" with stereo traffic

> whizzing by. Some angel honked right at the end. I didn't even

> bother to check to see if I had a good take. If the spirits of Jack

> and Neal weren't with me during those few minutes, there's no

> meaning to such a statement. I could about hear both of them

> laughing and it was a golden feeling.

>

> It isn't for sure I get to do it. They check with Viking for

> approval tomorrow. I said "If they want me to do it fine. If they

> don't, no problem. I'm a busy man."

>

> 4/25

>

> Just heard from Jim Sampas of the Kerouac estate again. He'd

> proposed me to Viking/Penguin this morning, but it seems they, in

> their infinite wisdom, have decided to go with Graham Parker. They

> feel Cassady with an english accent would be interesting, besides

> they've already put out promo on it. They offered me "Book of Blues"

> to record instead. Sure, I'll do it, though I don't have the JFK

> accent Kerouac had. Maybe I should put out my own recording of

> "Visions" audio on the net. 45 megabyte download anyone?

Regards,

Bent Sorensen

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 07:59:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody - Revisited

If I remember correctly, there is a more complete recording of Jack reading

from Visions of Cody in Allen Ginsberg's archives (on a reel-to-reel tape) but

as far as I know, has never been made available commercially.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 08:35:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

In-Reply-To: <v01510101adb5b548ab7e@[204.186.21.51]>

On Tue, 7 May 1996, George Morrone wrote:

> Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

> Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

> and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

The audio recording of the interview is on a CD compilation "The Beat

Generation"

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 09:34:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 7 May 1996 21:37:11 -0500 from

<gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Yea, there are lots of obvious comparisons between Fitz and Kerouac. The use o

f the narrator in OTR & Gatsby and their treatments of the American Dream are t

wo major similarities.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 09:44:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Salinger

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 7 May 1996 21:48:20 -0700 from

<sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Thanks, Bent for those interesting excerpts. There's also a book by

Robert Hipkiss -- Jack Kerouac: Prophet of the New Romanticism -- which

makes comparisons to Salinger and others. It's not very good in my

opinion but it might be worth a look anyway.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 09:49:02 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Robert Hunter and Kerouac

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 7 May 1996 22:19:46 -0700 from

<sbent@UNIXG.UBC.CA>

If Robert Hunter is listening, I'd sure like to hear that tape. If you

make that cd, they will buy it!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:06:26 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Peter R. McGahey" <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

Aside from the standard Lost Generation - Beat Generation connections,

I think it is rather facinating that so many assume that Kerouac's entire

canon is a big drug fest just like they assume all of Fitzgerald's canon is

one big alcoholic party. By reading "Babylon revisted" one can see the

obvious error in this image of Fitzgerald and I think we all know that

Kerouac's canon goes much deeper than the beatnik image.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 09:21:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

In-Reply-To: <v01510101adb5b548ab7e@[204.186.21.51]> from "George Morrone" at

May 7, 96 09:37:11 pm

> By the way, anyone care to discuss parallels between Kerouac and F. Scott

> Fitzgerald? They had similar styles, and "This Side of Paradise" reminded

> me of Kerouac's writing. They had much else in common, too: Catholicism,

I agree about This Side of Paradise -- in fact I was thinking about this

myself recently. It is certainly Fitzgerald's spontaneous piece of

writing (prob. because it was his first novel), and in ways he acheives

the natural flow and unpretentious tone that Kerouac worked hard to

find. It's interesting that Fitzgerald began as a spontaneous writer

and then became the opposite (with Gatsby and Tender is the Night),

whereas Kerouac's first novel (Town and the City) is somewhat studied and

stiff in tone -- only after this novel did he discover the spontaneous

prose style (with help from Neal Cassady).

Also, both writers were considered has-beens at the time of their

death, and did not become accepted as "serious" literary figures until

later. (With Kerouac, the process is still going on, I think).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:03:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: L00K homeward, Matt.

Hello folks. William Miller here. Back on the list after an absence.

Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

>

> I found some awesome books in a used book store today. I was

> wondering what you guys think about the prices. $25 for a first edition

> of Visions of Cody, hardcover. $30 for a 1rst ed. of Maggie Cassidy,

> soft. And $60 for the 1rst british ed. of Maggie Cassidy, 1rst hardcover

> ed. I didnt buy these but i did buy Satori in Paris & Pic, Grace beats

> Karma (finally, ive found some of neals writings), On the Road (a copy

> for my brother), No nature (Snyder), Look Homeward, Angel (Wolfe), and a

> book that contains poems by Bukowski and Phillip Lamantia. All in all it

> was a very successful outing!

> Goodnight

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> matt

Matt, I'm interested.... did you buy a 1st edition of Look Homeward Angel, or

not?? Please e-mail me directly and let me know if you bought a 1st, and if

so, what you paid for it. Being part of the best used bookstore in Wolfe's

hometown (the setting for most of LHA) I am always interested in knowing what

LHA is fetching.

Thanks.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 22:20:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

>Aside from the standard Lost Generation - Beat Generation connections,

>I think it is rather facinating that so many assume that Kerouac's entire

>canon is a big drug fest just like they assume all of Fitzgerald's canon is

>one big alcoholic party.

I wonder about the reason for the drinking. Was Kerouac very uncomfortable

in social situations? Remember how FitzG. humiliated himself at the

Hollywood party? (Crazy Sunday was based on the incident.) He could only

face social situations if anesthesized (drunk.) Was Kerouac similarly

uncomfortable? My guess is that alcohol serves as a sort of psychological

defense mechanism, which substitutes for personal growth. I'm amazed at how

brilliant they were in their writing, and how dense about their personal

lives.

>By reading "Babylon revisted" one can see the

>obvious error in this image of Fitzgerald and I think we all know that

>Kerouac's canon goes much deeper than the beatnik image.

Babylon Revisited is about the consequences of his fast lifestyle. Did

Kerouac later regret his heavy drug and alcohol use? I haven't read his

later books such as Big Sur yet. Though I don't have their writing talent,

I recognize a lot of myself in them and if I criticize them, it's because

I had similar problems and experiences. (Though I'm lucky enough not to

have an alcohol problem.) I think in both writers its their "romantic sense

of possibility," or "a sort of epic grandeur" that's attractive. By the

way, has anyone else read the chapter on Kerouac and Ginsberg in Gore

Vidal's "Palimpsest" yet? Vidal himself is an interesting writer, and I

intend to read "The City and the Pillar," along with Jack's "The Town and

the City" over the summer.

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:55:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

I think Kerouac inherited his alcoholism from his mother and possibly his

father too. There seem to be certain personality traits that go along with such

an inheritance, such as shyness in social situations, which of course, drinking

seems to ease. If I remember correctly, it was in the Nicosia biography that

mentioned Jack's attempt to stay away from big parties, because he was trying

to cut back on his drinking. Such was the case when Neal had a hard time

getting him to come into NYC from his mothers house (on Long Island?) to that

party where he met Kesey.

There is a good discussion on writing and drinking in the latest issue of BOMB

Magazine in the interview with Padgett Powell, who it seems, is kicking the

habit.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:13:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Robert Hunter and Kerouac

For anyone interested, with the available technology, there will be a

"Psychedelic Cyber Reunion" with Ken Kesey and Tim Leary on the CU SEE ME video

conference next Friday, May 10th. It will start approx. 4 pm and go to 7 pm

(I guess west coast time). For info updates, check the following web sites;

www.fishwwrap.com/hazardous

and or

www.leary.com

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:18:10 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dame Agnes Guano <NN279@LAMP.AC.UK>

Subject: The Beats in Mexico

I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

Kerouac like dysentery.

Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:24:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Comments: cc: Dame Agnes Guano <NN279@LAMP.AC.UK>

In-Reply-To: <831640691.101336.NN279@lamp.ac.uk>

On Thu, 9 May 1996, Dame Agnes Guano wrote:

> I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

> a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

> whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

> seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

> Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

> over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

> along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

> All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

> Kerouac like dysentery.

>

> Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

>

Burroughs's writing has all sorts of Mexican references from _Queer_ on,

but I think his best writing about Mexico is in _The Wild Boys_, if only

for the first section. The part about the witch and the evil eye are

great and the whole book is worth it for the lines from that same section,

"Vulgar queer, your arm hairs are blowing in our soup... (later) I hope

you slip on a piece of soap and fall off your balcony" Haha. _The Wild

Boys_ has always been one of my favourites come to think of it, the Green

Nun routine is hilarious. _Queer_ also has extensive parts based in

Mexico but is a much more dense and sad book.

As for sadness and Mexico there's always _Tristessa_ (sorry couldn't help

it), which details Kerouac's flirtations with junk (and eventual

abandonment of it for alcohol), and his misguided love for a junky.

Have Fun,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:41:54 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

I suppose this may be stating the obvious, but one aspect of Kerouac's

alcohol abuse early on could reasonably fall into the realm of

self-medication attempts. His emotional pain from childhood and young adult

experiences (Gerard and father's death, etc.) are well documented. None of

this is intended to be "either-or" oriented, as I imagine multiple causes or

triggers are the rule here.

Regards to all,

Jon Schwartz

jbs@uwyo.edu

>

>I think Kerouac inherited his alcoholism from his mother and possibly his

>father too. There seem to be certain personality traits that go along with

>such

>an inheritance, such as shyness in social situations, which of course,

>drinking

>seems to ease. If I remember correctly, it was in the Nicosia biography

that

>mentioned Jack's attempt to stay away from big parties, because he was

trying

>to cut back on his drinking. Such was the case when Neal had a hard time

>getting him to come into NYC from his mothers house (on Long Island?) to

that

>party where he met Kesey.

>

>There is a good discussion on writing and drinking in the latest issue of

BOMB

>Magazine in the interview with Padgett Powell, who it seems, is kicking the

>habit.

>

>Dave B.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:05:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Comments: cc: Brett.NN279@lamp.ac.uk

>I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

>a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

>whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

>seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

>Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

>over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

>along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

>All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

>Kerouac like dysentery.

>

>Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

Mexico Fellaheen by kerouac from Lonesone Traveller.

Also by Kerouac, Tristessa

and large portions of Desolation Angels

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:32:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Karen Lawler <klawler@EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mail List

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199605062244.SAA20132@mime3.prodigy.com>

please remove me from this mailing list

karen

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Gary Snyder

One of my students has concentrated her semester work on the poetry of Gary

Snyder. She has been so taken by his work that she is trying to find out if

he is teaching courses anywhere. Is he affiliated with any university?

Thanks in advance for any helpful information.

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:51:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: Gary Snyder

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM> "Gary Snyder" (May 9, 4:44pm)

UC Davis, I think.

--

--

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 06:59:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Brett,

Here's the best I could do:

Two letters in _The Letters of William S. Burroughs, 1945-1959_, both dated

"May 1951", one to Kerouac and one to A. Ginsberg, both addressed "37 Cerrada

de Medellin, Mexico City" made very clear how Burroughs felt about Mexico

City at the time. It seems that WSB felt a need to dispel Allen and Jack's

romantic notions, having lived there himself.....

Also the Introduction to _Queer_ (also Burroughs) contains some valuable

material.

Also I found a letter dated Jan 22, 1950, WSB->JK "Mexico is undoubtedly the

place for you...."

The contrast between first and last letters from Mexico:

Sept 26, 1949 (WSB-> JK): "Mexico is very cheap...fabulous cock fights and

whorehouses...I strongly urge you to visit"

Nov. 5, 1952 (WSB->AG): "I hope this is my last letter from Mexico...all I

want is out of this miserable cold town...three years in this town and no one

I want to say good-bye to when I leave, except Marker"

You definitely should look for _The Letters of WSB_ and _Queer_, if nothing

else. If memory serves correctly, Mexico City is the opening setting of

_Wild Boys_ also....

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:40:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: beat books

A few years back I was getting a catalog called "Beat books" put out by

Steve Ronan who writes beat related articles. I believe he worked at City

Lights in San Francisco at one time. He had some great used beat books in

those catalogs but I haven't received any in a long while. Does anyone still

get this catalog or have Steve's address or maybe even his phone number?

Also any info on other beat book catalogs would be appreciated.

Phil Chaput-Lowell Mass. e-mail philzi@tiac.net

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: BEAT PUBLICATIONS

Hello Phil Chaput! Responding to your inquiry bout Steve Ronan's BEAT BOOKS &

other Beat Publications. Here are a few names & addresses for you & I thought

some others might desire: Stephen Ronan, Beat Books, P.O. Box 5813, Berkley,

CA 94705; Water Row Books, P.O. Box 438, Sudbury, MA 01776

(Waterrow@aol.com); Waiting for Godot, P.O. Box 331, Hadley, MA 01035 (FAX

413-586-1731); Hanuman Books, 222 West 23rd St., NY NY 10011-2301 (FAX

212-633-8655); Alpha Beat Press, 31 A. Waterloo St., New Hope, PA 18938

(215-862-0299); Gotham Book Mart & Gallery, 41 West 47th St., NY NY 10036

(212-719-4448); City Lights Books, 261 Columbus Ave, San Francisco, CA 94133

(415-362-1901); Audio Literature, P.O. Box 7123, Berkley, CA 94707

(415-878-1831); Rhino Records, 1720 Westwood Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 90024

(310-474-8685); Viking Penguin, 375 Hudson St., NY NY 10014; Grove Atlantic,

841 Broadway, NY NY 10003; Thunder's Mouth Press, 93-99 Greene Street, NY NY

10012; Soft Skull Press, 50 East Third Street #5A, NY NY 10003

(212-533-6152); John LeBow Books, 117 Langford Road, Candia, NH 03034

(603-483-5595); Hozomeen Press, P.O. Box 174, Mystic, Connecticut 06355

(HozmnPress@aol.com); & White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville,

Kentucky 40206, (502-568-4956 or RWhiteBone@aol.com).

There are plenty of others but this is a list of some of the main ones. If

you have any questions or want more info let me know. All the Best, Ron

Whitehead (RWhiteBone@aol.com) 5/10/96 12:24PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:22:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm1.mcgill.ca>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm1.mcgill.ca>

In-Reply-To: <v01510101adb5b548ab7e@[204.186.21.51]>

> >oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

> >discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

> >beatniks...that bugs me, ya know?

>

> The columnist (I think it was Herb Caen of the San Francisco examiner)

> coined the phrase "beatnik" as a put-down, to imply leftist, "pink," or

> communist tendencies. (I suppose based on "sputnik.") It was during the

> Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

> Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

> and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

> Hecht's memoir, "Child of the Century," but couldn't locate it in the book

> later on.

It was indeed Herb Caen who coined the term, and it was a play on the

paranoia of the time about communism, based on the word "sputnik", but

it's my understanding (don't get me wrong, I'm not positive, this is

based on one source now forgotten, perhaps the Charters Kerouac bio) that

it wasn't originally intended to be derogatory. Can anyone back me up on

this?

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:14:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960510164423.19690A-100000@ccshst08>

reagardless of its original context, I think it has slowly developed a

cultural stigma that is not all together positive and is overly

stereotypical..

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"What kind of sordid business are you on now? I mean, man,

whither goest thou? Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in

the night?"

-On the Road, Jack Kerouac

On Fri, 10 May 1996, The Guelph Peak wrote:

> > >oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

> > >discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

> > >beatniks...that bugs me, ya know?

> >

> > The columnist (I think it was Herb Caen of the San Francisco examiner)

> > coined the phrase "beatnik" as a put-down, to imply leftist, "pink," or

> > communist tendencies. (I suppose based on "sputnik.") It was during the

> > Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

> > Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

> > and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

> > Hecht's memoir, "Child of the Century," but couldn't locate it in the book

> > later on.

>

> It was indeed Herb Caen who coined the term, and it was a play on the

> paranoia of the time about communism, based on the word "sputnik", but

> it's my understanding (don't get me wrong, I'm not positive, this is

> based on one source now forgotten, perhaps the Charters Kerouac bio) that

> it wasn't originally intended to be derogatory. Can anyone back me up on

> this?

>

> Paul

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:23:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CANAPP <Canapp@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Sorry About Wrong Address <g>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 11 May 96 22:14:08 EDT

From: Mailer-Daemon@cris.com

To: Canapp@cris.com

Subject: Returned mail: User unknown

----- Transcript of session follows -----

Connected to mailhost.cris.com:

>>> RCPT To:<BEAT-L@cunyvm>

<<< 553 <BEAT-L@cunyvm>... Never heard of cunyvm in domain cris.com

550 <BEAT-L@Cunyvm>... User unknown

----- Unsent message follows -----

Received: from localhost by mariner.cris.com (4.1) id AA04553; Sat, 11 May 96

22:14:08 EDT

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:14:08 -0400 (EDT)

From: CANAPP <Canapp@cris.com>

To: BEAT-L@cunyvm

Subject: The Powder Room

Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960511220651.4025A-100000@mariner.cris.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi, fellow Beats:

I just want to write and let you gals out there know, there is a new group

for "significant other females" regarding the Viet Nam war, and Vets.

Mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, and any other females who experienced

problems, loss, anger, whatever, etc., concerning Viet Nam.

The new group is called "The Powder Room" and we hope to have many

contributers. If anyone is interested, please email me personally.

Thank you, and sorry for the no Beat content.

Mary Beth:))

canapp@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 19:38:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Lucien Carr?????

I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

this name before. Did Lucien Carr write? Is he still alive. He looks like

a twin of River Pheonix.

Dolores

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:05:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

I don't recall that Lucien Carr ever wrote anything. But his son, Caleb, has

written a few, including most recently, The Alienist ( a best seller even).

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 00:43:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960511193546.16017B-100000@crl5.crl.com>

That would make sense--I mean his looking like River Phoenix. Lucien

Carr is supposed to have been extraordinarily beautiful. Some guy came

on to him so strong that he had to stab the guy to death--on the sheeny

nighttime shore of the Hudson near Grant's Tomb as I recall.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a tale of curious circuitry

http://www.idiom.com/~and_how/PAGE.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sat, 11 May 1996, Dolores Neese wrote:

> I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

> into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

> classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

> this name before. Did Lucien Carr write? Is he still alive. He looks like

> a twin of River Pheonix.

>

> Dolores

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 12:07:47 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: lucien carr

dolores

"kerouac was fascinated by the tone of the word 'beat' as hunke said it hunched

over a cup of coffee in a times square cafe....kerouac's insistence that the

word possessed deeper allusive qualities and meant something mysterious &

spiritual, suggestive of herman melvilles story more than a century before about

archetypal american non-conformist 'bartleby the scrivener', grew out of his

conversations with ginsberg & ginsberg's friend lucien carr, another columbia

undergraduate in the new york group.

ginsberg & carr were only eighteen-year-old college students at the time, but

they were drawn to literature and were using drugs like benzedrine and marijuana

in their dormitory rooms near the columbia campus to inspire them create what

they called a 'new vision' of art. they were atempting to follow the example of

the french poet arthur rimbaud, whom carr introduced to ginsberg as the ideal

poet. their efforts were the earliest attempts of the group later labelled

'beat writers' to define a philosophy.

....kerouac went to jail as a material witness for helping lucien carr destroy

evidence after carr fatally stabbed david kammerer, another member of the early

group around columbia."

taken from 'the portable beat reader'

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:54:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: lucien carr

Lucien Carr is alive, I presume well, and lives in Washington, DC. He is (I

believe) retired after a long career with United Press International.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:20:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject: Raid Kills Bugs Dead

I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:05:59 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Raid Kills Bugs Dead

In-Reply-To: <9605130020.AA24667@su1.in.net>

Well, it's true if you believe Robert Hass. He said so during an

interview with Terry Gross of NPR about two weeks ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a tale of curious circuitry

http://www.idiom.com/~and_how/PAGE.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sun, 12 May 1996, Douglas Dusseau wrote:

> I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

> responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

> anyone know if there is any truth to this?

> Douglas M Dusseau

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 18:39:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Michael E. Frank" <ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

Dolores; In a message dated 96-05-11 22:46:19 EDT, you write:

>I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

>into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

>classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

>this name before...

"...and returned to New York (Kerouac ' 51) not long after the publication of

his first novel, 'The Town and the City'. Once back, he moved in with an old

friend from the days around Columbia named Lucien Carr. At the time Carr was

living in a loft apartment on West Twenty-first Street and was working for

United Press.

As he (Kerouac) tried out his new technique ("Spontaneous Prose") on long

letters and short stories, he found that the only thing that slowed him down

was changing sheets of paper in the typewriter....The problem was solved by

Lucien Carr one night when he brought home a full roll of United Press

teletype paper that he had lifted from the office. Kerouac was delighted. He

saw that all he had to do was insert one end of the roll into his typewriter,

and he could keep going for days and days.

Carr remembers that shortly after the manuscript was finished a little dog

he had at the time attacked the roll and chewed up the last few feet of it.

'It had perforce to be rewritten,' he says, 'but I know for a fact that was

the only part of "On the Road" that was rewritten.' " "The Beat

Generation", Bruce Cook, 1971.

Off-the-topic query: Does anyone have a translation of the "Drunken Boat",

Rimbaud other than than the one by Le Clercq?? Appreciate if you can mail to

me at:

atrane207@aol.com Thanks. Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 01:43:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matt Sackmann <LSACKMA@UOFT02.BITNET>

Subject: hellooo...

Well, i had to move email addresse so i've missed our discussions for

about a week or so. Ive just started reading Dharma Bums today, and i

must say 'I love it!' More fun to read than Desolation Angels, it's a lot

happier so far. Im getting ready to head off to Alaska to attempt to

find a summer job (in three weeks) and my friends and i intend to do a

lot of hiking up there and in Washington (waiting for the ferry).

Thats all

-matt

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:04:59 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marcus Williamson <71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Drunken Boat

Michael

For info about the Drunken Boat try :

http://www.altavista.digital.com/

and use "Drunken Boat" (with quotes) as your search - there's quite a lot

there including Rimbaud, a band called "Drunken Boat" and a song

by the Pogues...! :-)

regards

Marcus

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:01:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 13 May 1996 18:39:09 -0400 from

<ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Yes, if you look at the manuscript that's currently on tour in the Beat exhibit

, you'll still see the ravages of Lucien's dog's teeth.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:04:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Drunken Boat

Hello! Anyone interested in deeper research on Drunken Boat the band contact

Todd Colby, one of the finest young poets in the country (two books out with

Soft Skull Press, NYC) who is also lead singer for Drunken Boat plus Director

of Poetry Readings at St. Mark's Poetry Project. Contact addresses: Todd

Colby, 275 Union St., Brooklyn, NY 11231; Soft Skull Press, 50 East Third

Street #5A, NY NY 10003, phone 212-533-6152; St.Mark's Poetry Project, 131 E.

10th St., NY NY 10003, phone 212-674-0918. If you need more info on any of

above give me a holler. Thanks!

Ron Whitehead, White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville, Kentucky

40206, phone 502-568-4956, e-mail RWhiteBone@aol.com 5/14/96 9:03AM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 08:12:24 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE LEE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Lew Welch--"Raid Kills Bugs Dead" (fwd)

Comments: cc: bosstoad@cris.com

Howdy folks,

I am forwarding this response from a friend who's having trouble posting to

this list.

--Bonnie

---------------forwarded message follows---------------

Yes, it's true. Well, maybe. The source of the story is in Aram Saroyan's

biography Genesis Angels, but I'm not sure Saroyan can be trusted (he

doesn't identify his sources), and the claim may not be true. Saroyan never

talked to Lew, that I know for a fact. I don't recall seeing the Raid ad

claim in the interview Lew gave Dave Meltzer around 1969-1970, from which

Saroyan got a good part of his bio material. Saroyan says "Lew Welch wrote

the classic slogan 'Raid Kills Bugs Dead' . . . before he quit advertising

for good in July of 1958." (Page 109.) I can't buy that. My research

indicates Lew was doing layout and copy work for Wards in Oakland in 1958

and got fired from the job, after which he chucked it all to live the life

of a poet. OP

At 08:20 PM 5/12/96 -0400, Douglas Dusseau wrote:

>I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

>responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

>anyone know if there is any truth to this?

>Douglas M Dusseau

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:38:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: Lucien Carr

Hello! Forwarding this info for Sara in Chicago. I just recvd copy of

articles from her &, although I was already familiar with the history of UC

censorship debacle, this is great work material. As many/most of you know the

spirit of censorship (yes to point of being Orwellian) is growing daily. I

went thru similar experience to Rosenthal/Carroll. Investigation by Univ of

Louisville really started in fall of '92 right after Allen Ginsberg read

"Sphincter" to audience of 1,500 at U of L. I brought Amiri Baraka two weeks

later & from that point on U of L President & staff waged all out war both in

press & behind scenes to threaten with imprisonment & scare all staff helpers

& completely dismantle all I had built for the literary renaissance. I was

stamped OUTLAW. I had already been banished when, as my last gesture, I

brought Lawrence Ferlinghetti to read & visit. Thomas Merton had spent last

night of his life in USA at Ferlinghetti's in California & Lawrence asked me

to arrange visit to his grave at Abbey of Gethsemani, Trappist, Kentucky.

After meditating on Merton's grave we had long talk & decided to make break

official & permanent from University & officially form the literary

renaissance, a non-profit organization supporting the global literary

community, out of which White Fields Press was born. Whole mad story to be

told in PUBLISHED IN HEAVEN: the birth of the literary renaissance. Hopefully

it will be birthed in '97.

All the Best from Sara Ellefson & Ron Whitehead 5/14/96 1:37PM

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: Sara.Ellefson@infores.com (Sara Ellefson)

To: RWhiteBone@aol.com

Date: 96-05-14 12:07:18 EDT

Hi Ron,

I've been unable to post to the list. If you could, be a dear and

post this for me . . . I'd be forever grateful. You can either

forward this to the list or copy and paste it to a new message,

doesn't matter to me.

Thanks a bunch.

I've got a wonderful 2-part article from 'The Reader' a free Chicago

weekly newspaper . . . it is about the censorship of the Winter '59

Chicago Review (U of Chicago Lit Mag) . . . part of which deals with

Lucien Carr:

"Not all of the winter manuscripts were ready that Friday, because of

a minor snafu with the Kerouac piece, "Lucien Midnight." "Lucien" was

Kerouac's friend Lucien Carr, who had been convicted of murder in the

late 40s. Carr had served some prison time, but by 1958 he was a free

man again. Kerouac referred to the crime in "Lucien Midnight." When

Carr found out he became enraged. He put word out through the

grapevine that the work had better not be published as it stood.

Rosenthal [editor of the Chicago Review] was putting the final

editorial touches on the manuscript and preparing it for the

typesetter when he received a frantic telegram from Ginsberg. He had

to delete all references to Carr from the text. Especially the title.

"Lucien Midnight" became "Old Angel Midnight."

It is a wonderful article and I've copied it for a couple of people

already. It is titled "NAKED CENSORSHIP The True Story of the

University of Chicago and William S. Burroughs's NAKED LUNCH" and was

written by Gerald E. Brennan. If you are interested in a copy I would

be happy to send you one, just send me a private e-mail (I'm kinda

swamped at work so it might take a couple of weeks).

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:00:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Beat Culture & the New America

Received this review of the Whitney show. Since the show is on the road

I thought it might still be of some interest. wxgbc

And the Beats Go On.

by

Michael McLean

The new show at the Whitney Museum of American Art is a

close though cluttered look at the life and wild times of that

most American of movements, the Beat Generation.

The Beats are back with a vengeance these days. Long

neglected and ridiculed by the literati and the common folk as

a band of degenerates, hoodlums, drug addicts, sex maniacs and

half mad writers, the Beats now enjoy a renewed visibility

(tha nks in no small part to poet Allen Ginsberg's tireless

and not entirely selfless drumbeating).

Their poetry and prose are back on the shelves being

discovered by a new, sympathetic generation of readers.

Ginsberg is a respected professor at Brooklyn College and

records songs with alternative rock bands. Sales of Jack

Kerouac's books an d Kerouac memorabilia soar as tour groups

wend their way through the dismal streets of his hometown of

Lowell, Mass. And William Burroughs remains a largely

invisible though palpable presence, still producing books and

exhibiting wild paintings of shotgun blasts of color.

A new respectability, or is it merely a nostalgia, for

the Beats is in the air. The Beats are cool again. And the

Beats are back in town being celebrated at the Whitney.

Entitled Upbeat Culture and the New America 1950-1965,"

the show seems a jumbled panorama of Beat artifacts and

ephemeral. Manuscripts, letters, artwork, snapshots and

notebooks of all the major and some very minor Beat writers

are on display along with the paintings, sculpture and films

of contemporaneous artists who while not strictly Beat were

friends of, sympathetic with or influences upon them.

Inexplicably the show is organized not along thematic or

chronological lines, but geograp hically with sections devoted

to New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

In the New York section the major artifacts of the Beat

Generation are on view: the roll of Teletype paper, now

discolored and tattered, on which Kerouac typed his first

draft of "On the Road"; some graying pages torn from the

manuscript of Burroughs' notorious "Naked Lunch"; and pages

from the original draft of Ginsberg's "Howl."

Along with the writers' manuscripts is their artwork.

Especially poignant are Ginsberg's blown-up and hand-annotated

photos of himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, Gregory Corso and other

seminal Beat figures when they were young and on the verge of

giving voice to what Kerouac called "the unspeakable visions

of the individual." Of note also are Kerouac's small paintings

and drawings, mostly abstracts but including one heavy-handed

but heartfelt rendering of Budda, and Burroughs' newspaper

colla ges concentrating, of course, on the dark side -- all

murder, bombs and sundry disasters.

Much of the California art, as other reviewers have

observed, is disappointing and unmemorable and of a strangely

wearisome yellowed and brownish cast. There are few

exceptions.

Jess's cartoon collage books and more somber black and

white neosurrealist collages are intriguing. Another exception

is Jay De Feo's legendary The Rose, which she worked on for

eight years alternately applying countless layers of paint and

painstakingly scraping it off until The Rose reached a truly

monumental 11 feet in height and weight of over 2,000 pounds.

The Rose lends itself to a variety of interpretations.

Its sanded-smooth rays of soft grays emanate from the center

to the outer edges of the canvas where the paint remains

black, clumpy and unrefined. It is a flowering, of course, but

also s uggests perhaps the expansion of the artist's

sensibility or consciousness, or even the Big Bang itself.

Bruce Conner's assemblages made of grimy stretched nylon,

old cardboard, pieces of twine, wood and other junkyard

salvage are given prominent play in the exhibition. But except

for one or two amusing pieces, such as a street trash portrait

of Allen Ginsberg, they seem particularly dated as do Wally

Hedrick's clumsily erotic paintings.

It is only in the New York section that works of

considerable power and resonance appear. The artists' ties to

the Beats are tenuous at best although Larry Rivers did act in

the early Beat film, "Pull My Daisy," along with Ginsberg and

Corso (narration by Kerouac). Still their works are shown to

good advantage. Hung alongside the relics of the Beat writers,

they combine to re-create a gritty street scene of a fifties

New York when the visual and literary arts were in a state of

ferment a nd something genuinely new was about to erupt.

The Jackson Pollock is welcome relief after the

Californian smog -- a bright swath of his trademark swirls of

of color and light. Interestingly Kerouac credited Pollock's

raw expression of the subconscious through instinctive action

painting as an influence on the composition of his own

spontaneous bop prosody. Kline and de Kooning are also on view

as well as Rivers' nude-but-for-combat boots portrait of poet

Frank O'Hara and expressionistic bar menu.

Robert Rauschenberg's pieces still show considerable

power and seem as fresh and innovative as when they were -3-

created which cannot be said of most of the California works.

In contrast to Conner's assemblages, for example,

Rauschenberg's Satellite boasts a strong composition of

newspaper, fabric (including an old pair of blue socks), and

colorful splashes and drips of paint and still speaks with

authority. It is classic early Rauschenberg down to the

paint-besmeared pheasant that struts along a plank mounted to

the canvas top.

Even a relatively minor work such as Mother of God, a

mounted map with a gaping white hole at its center, still

disturbs and remains undiminished.

My advice on the Beat show is Kerouac's oft repeated

exhortation, "Go, man, go." But make only a quick swing

through San Fran and L.A. before spending most of your time

in New York.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:34:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Sketches of Kerouac

As I've been reading Kerouac's Visions of Cody I've become increasingly

interested in his technique of "sketching." Does anyone know how and when this

style originated? Was "October in the Railroad Earth" the first example of this

technique that Kerouac went on to use more frequently? Also, are there any

articles (aside from the ones that kerouac himself wrote) out there on this

technique and how it is used in his books?

just wondering,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:32:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: compuserve

I've been having problems with bounced beat-l mail from compuserve but

compservedoesn't identify the source of the delivery problem. I have 3

compuserve subscribers on the list. Will those of you on compuserve who

are receiving messages let me know so that I identify the one person who

isn't receiving messages. Please respond directly to me at

wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Thanks much. Sorry to takeup everyone's time

with such housekeeping chores.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:25:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Alexander Beaulieu <dabeauli@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.ucalgary.ca>

In-Reply-To: <0007C575.fc@ridley.on.ca>

as far as i know it was Ed White who recommended the "sketching" technique

to JK. check out THE MISSOURI REVIEW XVII, #3 for the White Letters and

some comments on their interaction.

derek beaulieu

dabeauli@acs.ucalgary.ca

On Wed, 15 May 1996, J.D. P. Lafrance wrote:

>

> As I've been reading Kerouac's Visions of Cody I've become increasingly

> interested in his technique of "sketching." Does anyone know how and when this

> style originated? Was "October in the Railroad Earth" the first example of thi

> technique that Kerouac went on to use more frequently? Also, are there any

> articles (aside from the ones that kerouac himself wrote) out there on this

> technique and how it is used in his books?

>

> just wondering,

> JDL

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 21:24:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

Derek Alexander Beaulieu writes:

as far as i know it was Ed White who recommended the "sketching" technique

to JK. check out THE MISSOURI REVIEW XVII, #3 for the White Letters and

some comments on their interaction.

Yeah, I believe I've read about Ed White's influence somewheres (perhaps in

Memory Babe - not sure)... thanks, I will try and hunt down that issue...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:11:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: ticket that exploded

Hello folks.

I just finished a first reading of _The Ticket That Exploded_. I was

wondering if someone could comment on any passages that may be common between

_TTE_ and _Electronic Revolution_. I have not read ER, but the last 20 pages

or so of _TTE_ is a sort of manual for (what is now a very primitive)

electronic revolution.

Now into _Nova Express_.

Minutes to go,

William Miller

BTW, I think the best passage in _TTE_ was the description of the frogfaced

southern sheriff. Suddenly I can't find that passage -- anyone know if it's

in _TTE_ or is it in _The Soft Machine_?

>From _The Soft Machine_ : "I was more *physical before my *accident, you can

see from this interesting picture"

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:08:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk@KDSI.NET>

Subject: Re: The Ticket That Exploded

On Thu, 16 May 1996, William Miller wrote:

> I just finished a first reading of _The Ticket That Exploded_.

William, you might be intereted in the following URL:

http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/0009f.html

It contains some helpful information regarding Ticket, and it is part

of a larger exploration of Burroughs' work.

Regards,

Luke

---

/\ /\ /\ /\ Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ lpk@bigtable.com

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ http://www.bigtable.com

Please don't drive. Ride a bike! http://www.kdsi.net

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:42:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

> As I've been reading Kerouac's Visions of Cody I've become increasingly

>interested in his technique of "sketching." Does anyone know how and when this

>style originated? Was "October in the Railroad Earth" the first example of this

>technique that Kerouac went on to use more frequently? Also, are there any

>articles (aside from the ones that kerouac himself wrote) out there on this

>technique and how it is used in his books?

>

>just wondering,

>JDL

There is an excellent article that appeared in The American Poetry Review:

Jan/Feb. 1995. Written by Clark Coolidge, it is entitled

"Kerouac". He talks about the writing style Of JK and breaks it into three

categories: Alluvials, Sketching and Babble Flow. I use this article as a

introduction to my students for spontaneous writing. If anyone is

interested, I can try to scan it onto the computer.

Interesting Note: Coolidge was present at the infamous "Brandies University

Seminar" in which JK took on his critics.

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:11:33 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

I would be very interested in the obtaining a copy of that article...it sounds

fascinating...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:27:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96051620424426@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Interesting Note: Coolidge was present at the infamous "Brandies University

> Seminar" in which JK took on his critics.

>

Where can I find out more about this infamous seminar please?

--Andrew

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:43:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

>> Interesting Note: Coolidge was present at the infamous "Brandies University

>> Seminar" in which JK took on his critics.

>>

>

>Where can I find out more about this infamous seminar please?

>

> --Andrew

A recording of this is included in the Rhino records kerouac

collection--the 3 CD ROM package of his records.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 07:44:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Ticket That Exploded

Luke,

thanks for that URL information.

William.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:33:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

Also the Kerouac bio, MEMORY BABE goes into some detail the events leading up

to, during and after his appearance there... very interesting stuff.

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:38:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: The Ticket that Exploded

> On Thu, 16 May 1996, William Miller wrote:

>

> > I just finished a first reading of _The Ticket That Exploded_.

>

> William, you might be intereted in the following URL:

>

> http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/0009f.html

>

> It contains some helpful information regarding Ticket, and it is part

> of a larger exploration of Burroughs' work.

I checked out the URL with the thought in mind that the best summary, and

most elucidating piece on any of the books in Burroughs's first trilogy is

to be found in Skerl's _William S. Burroughs_. Much to my surprise it

was the passage from Skerl's book. If you want a very easy bite-size

criticism of the trilogy Skerl's book is excellent. Mottram's _Algebra of

Need_ is also an excellent text, but tends to be more involved and

sometimes, I found, more abstruse.

Answering the original question about _Electronic Revolution_, ER is more

like _The Job_ than TTE. ER is a didactic, theoretical work that explains

some of Burroughs's methods for experimenting with the word virus. There

are some fictional vignettes interspersed throughout the text to

illustrate the theories in practice, but the overall tone remains

didactic, Burroughs's recipe for a revolution of consciousness. ER

includes the "Feedback From Watergate to The Garden of Eden" section that

appears in _The Job_. The second eponymously entitled part is a

continuation of his theories:

[snip]

In "The Invisible Generation" first published in IT and in the Los

Angeles Free Press in 1966 and reprinted in _The Job_, I consider the

potentials of thousands of people with tape recorders, portable and

stationary, messages passed along like signal drums, a parody of the

President's speech up and down the balconies, in and out open windows,

through walls, over courtyards, taken up by barking dogs, muttering bums,

music, traffic down windy streets, across parks and soccer fields.

Illusion is a revolutionary weapon.

[snip]

He then goes on to detail further specific uses of cut-up tapes as

revolutionary weapons. TTE is very close to _The Job_ and ER in theme,

but not in style or content. TTE brings the methods and theories about

the word as virus, and cut-up weaponry into Burroughs's fictional world,

into the battle between the Nova Mob and the rest of the Agents. ER would

be like a companion piece to TTE if you want to look at it that way.

Incidentally, my favourite part is when Lee or A.J. or whoever it is goes

to the Garden Of Delights; Burroughs's attack on hallucinogenic using,

peace-loving, utopia-believing, flower wearing, free sex hippies. Haha.

L. Kelly's site is very good for those who haven't read a lot of

Burroughs but want an overview of his career and writings. Tons of info

and great pics. He lifted (with permission of course) a section of an

essay I did on Ondaatje's Collected Works of Billy the Kid and

Burroughs's Place of Dead Roads for his PODR section at

http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/0020a.html

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 19:25:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: The Ticket that Exploded

Yes, I agree that that Burroughs site is one of the best I've seen -

particularly those essays on Burroughs by J. Skerl - her insights and analysis

of Naked Lunch was excellent!

well worth a looksee,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:54:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: WSB, Hippos

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

Thanks to Neil [nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA (Neil Hennessy)]

for providing more information on Burroughs' TTE and ER. I plan to step into

Nova Express this weekend.

I'm not visiting every web site associated with all of these boys because I

just find it more satisfying (GADS!) to actually read the book (paper, pages,

binding, and all that) than to cyber-do it.

But I'll check out that Big Table thing.

Neil (or anyone) do you know if anyone has ever seen a part or whole copy of

the manuscript for _And the Hippos were Boiled in their Tanks_ ?

BTW I still have not found a copy of _You Can't Win_, by Jack Black, despite

having done interlibrary loan requests. And working in a used bookstore. I

refuse to pay the US$20 for a new copy from some publisher in Hawaii. Anyone

with any info on Black's book (availability, price) please e-mail me directly

or post to the list.

thanks.

William

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:32:22 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: b. gysins dreammachine & k. cobains suicide

hi,

in the fabulous booklet of the recently released cd "10 % under

burroughs" featuring burroughs gysin huncke and many less known

characters, there's a note saying that there could be some

connections between nirvana's kurt cobain's suicide and brion gysin's

dreammachine. what are these connections ?

jens

jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 08:50:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: ?

In a message dated 96-05-19 23:36:43 EDT, sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de (Shar

Fitzpatrick) writes:

>Subj: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: cunyvm: host not found)

(fwd)

>Date: 96-05-19 23:36:43 EDT

>From: sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de (Shar Fitzpatrick)

>To: kenwnc@aol.com

>

> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,

> while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

> Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

>

>--TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de

>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

>Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960520043216.29239C@pepps>

>

>Hi, William. I cannot seem to get my mail to go to everyone o

>the list so if you wouldn-t mind forwarding this, I would

>appreciate it. Thanks. Shar---

>I am hoping this will work--I have been having the biggest problem with

>this little e-mail system. Anyway, I have been trying to find out about

>the Jack Kerouac Institute in Colorado. It is actually not named that,

>but known for that. Also, if anyone knows the exact dates of the Kerouac

>Festival in Lowell, I'd appreciate it.

>Little interesting fact: I was in Prague last weekend and found Maggie

>Cassidy translated into Czech.

>

>--TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de--

>

>

>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------

>From sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de Sun May 19 23:36:32 1996

>Return-Path: sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de

>Received: from pepps.pepperdine.de (pepps.pepperdine.de [194.175.254.10]) by

>emin22.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA26725 for

><kenwnc@aol.com>; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:36:30 -0400

>Received: (from sfitzpat@localhost) by pepps.pepperdine.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id

>EAA29244; Mon, 20 May 1996 04:34:36 +0200

>Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 04:34:35 +0200 (MET DST)

>From: Shar Fitzpatrick <sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de>

>To: kenwnc@aol.com

>Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: cunyvm: host not found)

>(fwd)

>Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960520043216.29239A-110000@pepps>

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED;

>BOUNDARY="TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de"

>Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960520043216.29239B@pepps>

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de (Shar Fitzpatrick)

To: kenwnc@aol.com

Date: 96-05-19 23:36:43 EDT

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,

while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960520043216.29239C@pepps>

Hi, William. I cannot seem to get my mail to go to everyone o

the list so if you wouldn-t mind forwarding this, I would

appreciate it. Thanks. Shar--------- Forwarded

message ---------- Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:28:31 +0200

From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@pepps.pepperdine.de>

To: sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de

Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: cunyvm: host not found)

The original message was received at Sun, 19 May 1996 19:28:26 +0200

from sfitzpat@localhost

----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----

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----- Transcript of session follows -----

550 Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>... Host unknown (Name

server: cunyvm: host not found)

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--TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de

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TAA28270; Sun, 19 May 1996 19:28:26 +0200

Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:28:26 +0200 (MET DST)

From: Shar Fitzpatrick <sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de>

To: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

Subject: Re: WSB, Hippos

In-Reply-To: <960517205428_303485269@emout17.mail.aol.com>

Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960519192345.28206G-100000@pepps>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I am hoping this will work--I have been having the biggest problem with

this little e-mail system. Anyway, I have been trying to find out about

the Jack Kerouac Institute in Colorado. It is actually not named that,

but known for that. Also, if anyone knows the exact dates of the Kerouac

Festival in Lowell, I'd appreciate it.

Little interesting fact: I was in Prague last weekend and found Maggie

Cassidy translated into Czech.

--TAA28271.832526911/pepps.pepperdine.de--

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:21:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac School & Festival

Hello! Here's contact information (someone requested & may be of interest to

others) on

The Naropa Institute & Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics Summer

Programs (June & July) plus Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Annual International

Festival (first week October): Attn: Sue Hammond, School of Continuing

Education, The Naropa Institute, 2130 Arapahoe Ave., Boulder, CO 80302-6697,

phone 303-546-3578; Mark Hemenway (took over as Director last year after

years of incredible success by founder Brian Foye who is still active in

organization i.e. Brian arranged for Patti Smith to perform at last year's

Festival), Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853, phone

508-454-0736. Thanks! Any further related to these or other Beat World

goingson contact me at: Ron Whitehead, White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington

Road, Louisville, Kentucky 40206, phone 502-568-4956 or RWhiteBone@aol.com

Later, Ron 5/21/96 9:20AM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:37:27 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Kerouac Festival

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Festival will be 3-6 October this

year. Send me your snail mail address to get on the mailing list. Wrtie me

at Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853 or call me at

508-458-1721. Yes, Brina Foye is still active and very much a part of the

organization.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:57:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Festival

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 21 May 1996 11:37:27 EDT from

<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

On Tue, 21 May 1996 11:37:27 EDT mARK hEMENWAY said:

>The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Festival will be 3-6 October this

>year. Send me your snail mail address to get on the mailing list. Wrtie me

>at Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853 or call me at

>508-458-1721. Yes, Brina Foye is still active and very much a part of the

>organization.

I'm not sure if I'm already on your mailing list:

Blaine Allan

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:58:28 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Festival

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 21 May 1996 11:37:27 EDT from

<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Damn. Hit that "send" key just a little too quickly. Sorry, folks.

Blaine.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:13:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: The Ticket That Exploded

> Yes, I agree that that Burroughs site is one of the best I've seen -

> particularly those essays on Burroughs by J. Skerl - her insights and

> analysis

> of Naked Lunch was excellent!

The essays (at least the ones I've seen) are all excerpted from her book

_William S. Burroughs_. Here is the complete biblio info:

Skerl, Jenny. _William S. Burroughs_ G.K. Hall & Company: Boston, 1985.

Well worth reading. Of particular interest to the biographical\fictional

debates that occasionally rage on the list is her section on the role of

the "Burroughs myth" in his fiction. Her book sticks to major works that

are widely available and acts as an easy intro to Burroughs's oeuvre and

popular criticism of his work.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:04:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Kackley <104203.1770@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: cancel

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

Please remove me from the mailing list. Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:59:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: WSB, Hippos

On Fri, 17 May 1996 20:54:29 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@aol.com> wrote:

> Neil (or anyone) do you know if anyone has ever seen a part or whole copy of

> the manuscript for _And the Hippos were Boiled in their Tanks_ ?

This question was bandied about the list a couple of months ago and I

think the answer was that someone left it in a cab somewhere and it was

lost forever. Everyone expressed their heartfelt desire that it be found

and published, but no-one had heard of any extant MS :-(

> BTW I still have not found a copy of _You Can't Win_, by Jack Black, despite

> having done interlibrary loan requests. And working in a used bookstore. I

> refuse to pay the US$20 for a new copy from some publisher in Hawaii. Anyone

> with any info on Black's book (availability, price) please e-mail me directly

> or post to the list.

Anyone who answers this please post to the list. And if you (William

Miller) could be so kind as to post the info about the Hawaii publisher

I'd appreciate it. I've always wanted to get a copy of this work that had

such a far-reaching influence on Burroughs. It would be interesting to

see the original Salt Chunk Mary.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:09:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: b. gysins dreammachine & k. cobains suicide

> in the fabulous booklet of the recently released cd "10 % under

> burroughs" featuring burroughs gysin huncke and many less known

> characters, there's a note saying that there could be some

> connections between nirvana's kurt cobain's suicide and brion gysin's

> dreammachine. what are these connections ?

That Cobain used the dreammachine to resurrect himself and is now living

with Elvis flipping burgers at a McDonald's in Tucson. I haven't had a

chance to hear the 10% cd yet, but I hope that is the only mention of

Kurt Cobain. His work with Burroughs was without a doubt the worst music

accompanying a Burroughs text I've ever heard. I wonder if Burroughs was in

the studio when Cobain did it? I can just hear him after Cobain finishes

his little tirade, "That's very nice son." My understanding is that the

reading was from the hours upon hours of material from which _Spare Ass

Annie_ and _Dead City Radio_ were born.

I can't believe someone is actually trying to connect the dream machine

to Cobain's suicide. What next?

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:01:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Hemenway & Kerouac

Have recvd several inquiries in last two weeks bout Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac! Festival with some folks wondering about changes since Mark Hemenway

replaced Brian Foye as Director. Mark is his own person as is Brian. Both

have done and are doing impeccable work with the festival that should and

hopefully will be pronounced THE ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL KEROUAC FESTIVAL. It

continues to grow by leaps & bounds but has also retained the quality &

hometown friendliness that has been its trademark from the beginning. After

my first visit years ago I was hooked & still am. There's nothing like

walking the streets Jack walked, drinking in the bars, reading in the cafes,

standing leaning over the railing mesmerized by the Merrimac, sitting

silently by his grave & feeling his presence moving gently in the breeze. I

support Mark & Brian in all they've done are doing & will do & by god after

all that I'm out the door to drink a toast to both of them to Jack Kerouac &

to all of you. Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:55:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Stephen Armstrong <Steph17895@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat Sources

A week or ten days ago someone posted a WONDERFUL list of names, addresses,

etc. of individuals and bookstores that are sources of Beat literature. My

e-mail got messed up; would someone be kind enough to post this again?

Thanks!

Steve Armstrong

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:06:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat Sources

At 09:55 PM 5/21/96 -0400, you wrote:

>A week or ten days ago someone posted a WONDERFUL list of names, addresses,

>etc. of individuals and bookstores that are sources of Beat literature. My

>e-mail got messed up; would someone be kind enough to post this again?

> Thanks!

> Steve Armstrong

>

>It was so nice of Ron Whitehead to post this for us and here it is. If

anyone has any more to add please do, especially used and rare book

catalogs.

Phil

Hello Phil Chaput! Responding to your inquiry bout Steve Ronan's BEAT BOOKS &

other Beat Publications. Here are a few names & addresses for you & I thought

some others might desire: Stephen Ronan, Beat Books, P.O. Box 5813, Berkley,

CA 94705; Water Row Books, P.O. Box 438, Sudbury, MA 01776

(Waterrow@aol.com); Waiting for Godot, P.O. Box 331, Hadley, MA 01035 (FAX

413-586-1731); Hanuman Books, 222 West 23rd St., NY NY 10011-2301 (FAX

212-633-8655); Alpha Beat Press, 31 A. Waterloo St., New Hope, PA 18938

(215-862-0299); Gotham Book Mart & Gallery, 41 West 47th St., NY NY 10036

(212-719-4448); City Lights Books, 261 Columbus Ave, San Francisco, CA 94133

(415-362-1901); Audio Literature, P.O. Box 7123, Berkley, CA 94707

(415-878-1831); Rhino Records, 1720 Westwood Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 90024

(310-474-8685); Viking Penguin, 375 Hudson St., NY NY 10014; Grove Atlantic,

841 Broadway, NY NY 10003; Thunder's Mouth Press, 93-99 Greene Street, NY NY

10012; Soft Skull Press, 50 East Third Street #5A, NY NY 10003

(212-533-6152); John LeBow Books, 117 Langford Road, Candia, NH 03034

(603-483-5595); Hozomeen Press, P.O. Box 174, Mystic, Connecticut 06355

(HozmnPress@aol.com); & White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville,

Kentucky 40206, (502-568-4956 or RWhiteBone@aol.com).

There are plenty of others but this is a list of some of the main ones. If

you have any questions or want more info let me know. All the Best, Ron

Whitehead (RWhiteBone@aol.com) 5/10/96 12:24PM

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:03:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: You Can't Win

Folks,

As soon as I can, I will look in _Books In Print_ and find that information

about the Jack Black book.

I thought that I had it here at the house, but I don't.

All I seem to remember now is that it was $19.95 and from some publisher in

Hawaii.

I believe that the Hawaii folks were the only people that had it listed.

That could have been the 1995 BiP, I don't know if it was '95 or '96.

I'll report what I can get out of the most current volume.

I work at the library, but they never give us any money for nothin.

William

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:04:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: You Can't Win: Hawaii Address.

Hello folks.

To all interested parties, I found this information regarding a certain

volume which influenced, so say the sources, a young WSB2. From the

1995-1996 BiP.

Jack Black

_You Can't Win_

$US18.95

099204155

Omnium

Omnium

P.O.Box 5020

Kukuihaele, Hawaii

96727

To the best of my knowledge, Amok Press formerly carried the book, but no

longer carries the book.

Word begets image and image *is* virus.

Yours in Bill.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:51:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: SHE

I saw Gregory Corso a couple of years ago and he read his poem "Marriage."

When he got to the part:

"...Like SHE in her lonely alien gaud..."

he said he was refering to a popular novel of that time entitled "SHE." Does

anyone have any idea who the author of that novel is or if it is still in

print?

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:20:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Dean <mickdean@UVIC.CA>

Subject: Re: SHE

> "...Like SHE in her lonely alien gaud..."

>

>he said he was refering to a popular novel of that time entitled "SHE." Does

>anyone have any idea who the author of that novel is or if it is still in

>print?

"She" by Ryder Haggard, should still be in print, a ridiculous story.

Also made into a film, starring Ursula Andress.

Mickey Dean

mickdean@uvic.ca

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:31:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe Buschini <joeb@SMPLANET.COM>

Subject: Re: SHE

> "...Like SHE in her lonely alien gaud..."

>

>refering to a popular novel of that time entitled "SHE." Does

>anyone have any idea who the author of that novel is or if it is still in

>print?

"She" is an H. Rider Haggard adventure novel from the 1880s. I suspect that

Corso alludes to the B-movie version of the novel, which appeared in the

early 60s. I don't remember much of the plot, but it involved an empress

who remained alive for centuries awiting the reincarnation of her lover.

Joe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:23:25 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE LEE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: SHE

=I saw Gregory Corso a couple of years ago and he read his poem "Marriage."

=When he got to the part:

= "...Like SHE in her lonely alien gaud..."

=he said he was refering to a popular novel of that time entitled "SHE." Does

=anyone have any idea who the author of that novel is or if it is still in

=print?

=Paul McDonald

=Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

>From HALLIWELL'S FILMGOERS COMPANION:

She.

"Seven silent versions were made of Rider Haggard's adventure fantasy

about a lost tribe, an ageless queen, and a flame of eternal life in

Darkest Africa. Only the last remains, made in London and Berlin by

G.B. Samuelson, with Betty Blythe and Carlyle Blackwell. In 1934 in

Hollywood, Merian Cooper and Ernest Schoedsack remade the story in a

North Pole setting, with Helen Gahagan and Randolph Scott. In 1965

came a lifeless Hammer version directed by Robert Day, with Ursula

Andress and John Ricardson; this was followed in 1968 by a sequel,

THE VENGEANCE OF SHE, which was more than slightly potty."

Hope this helps, still have no idea if it's in print or not, though.

Bonnie

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:43:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: request

I got this request and don't know the answer. The person who

wrote it seems pretty urgent -- can anyone help?

> From dawn@ibhere.demon.co.uk Thu May 23 10:46:53 1996

> Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 06:26:29 -0700

> From: Dawn Ullman <dawn@ibhere.demon.co.uk>

> To: brooklyn@netcom.com

> Subject: william s burroughs

>

> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, can you possibly help me (i kinda know you will if

> you can, just been reading about the kinda guy you are on you web page.)

> here's the story:

> not so long ago m.t.v.'s chillout zone showed a video of william

> burroughs THANKS GIVING PRAYER not the release version on the l.p but a

> kinda mixed version with an upbeat tune and a female vocalist, i have

> tried desperately to track this down to no avail my last resort may lie

> with you (hope this put pressure on you ;-) ). i would like to know what

> it is or anything about it really, please help one desperate lady (i like

> to think of myself as that ) i will be iternally grateful for this can

> you email me any response even if it is glim.

> many many many thanks

>

>--

>bye

>dawnieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:51:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: SHE

Hello! In response to Paul McDonald's question bout Corso's SHE reference.

Check out H. Rider Haggard's SHE. Haggard wrote many books. Lived 1856-1925.

couple movies based on or born out of book including recent turd KING

SOLOMON's MINES. also check Queen of Sheba, Solomon, etc. and if interested

also check out A STRANGE STORY: An Alchemical Novel by Edward Bulwer Lytton.

Later, Ron Whitehead 5/23/96 3:50PM

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:53:52 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: SHE

And perhaps a sideways allusion(without meaning it) to Ferlinghetti's novel,

HER...

Jon Schwartz

jbs@uwyo.edu

>> "...Like SHE in her lonely alien gaud..."

>>

>>he said he was refering to a popular novel of that time entitled "SHE."

Does

>>anyone have any idea who the author of that novel is or if it is still in

>>print?

>

>"She" by Ryder Haggard, should still be in print, a ridiculous story.

>

>Also made into a film, starring Ursula Andress.

>

>Mickey Dean

>mickdean@uvic.ca

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:15:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: SHE HER Ferlinghetti Burroughs & Chicago Review

"In the Deconstructing faux corridors of Academia, with faint sound of

hysterical laughter in the distance, The Dead somberly splash in their

shallow sewers devouring and regurgitating themselves" (The Bone Man).

A comparison of SHE (1887) by Haggard to HER (1961) by Ferlinghetti is like

comparing TOM SAWYER to ULYSSES. Burroughs NAKED LUNCH is the "pre-eminent

achievement in postwar American fiction" (see Geoff Ward's "Burroughs: a

Literary Outlaw?" in THE CAMBRIDGE QUARTERLY vol 22 #4 1993), Kerouac's prose

& poetry ranks with the smallest handful of the best, Ginsberg's HOWL stands

side by side with Munch's THE SCREAM (although 1890s) as the poem painting

best representing humankind's 20th Century torment (yes a case can be made

for Eliot's THE WASTE LAND for holding that position for 1st half-century),

Ferlinghetti's

A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND has sold more copies internationally than any book

of poems by any living poet. The Beat Generation is the most important group

of writers in the history of America and in time will be compared to the

British Romantics in level of importance despite all the eye rolling that

continues to go on in that bastion of conservatism called Academia. But The

Beats (& please include San Francisco Renaissance. if you want to go further

& include Black Mountain & New York School let's discuss. of course I'd love

to discuss any of this with any of YOu) are much more important than the

British Romantics (maybe timing) because their impact reaches beyond

literature (the arts) into culture much further than even Blake ever hoped

for.

Anyway back to Haggard & Ferlinghetti. Sir Henry Rider Haggard (1856-1925)

was one of the most successful writers of popular fiction in late 19th

Century England. He wrote 58 volumes fiction plus 7 other books. SHE is the

story of Ayesha, a white goddess of Africa who is 2,000 years old but still

appears young & beautiful. Lawrence Ferlinghetti

(1919 - ), at the age of 77, in Italy at the moment with exhibition opening

of his art at main museum in Rome, is underappreciated warrior member of

tribe called The Beats.

HER, called "a masterpiece of the young American novel" (Pierre Lepape), pays

homage to James Joyce (originator of Burroughs' survival standard "silence,

exile and cunning") and Surrealism, has been compared to French new novel

anti-novel by Robbe-Grillet & Michel Butor, but as always with Ferlinghetti

it speaks with his own incomparable original voice. The anti-hero quest

narrative is labyrinth-dream of highest surreal order.

But now I want to bring up another point which is that Lawrence Ferlinghetti

is a Misunderstood American Giant. How? Why?

Today "Specialization" is sold on every corner, fed in every home,

brainwashed in to every student. We are told that the only way to succeed,

here at the end of the 20th Century, and certainly tomorrow in the 21st

Century, is to put all our time, energy, learning, and focus into one are,

one field, one specialty (math, science, computer technology, business). If

we don't we will fail. We are subtly and forcefully, implicitly and

explicitly, encouraged to deny the rest of who we are, our total self,

selves, our holistic being. The Postmodern brave new world seems to reside

inside the computer The Web with only faint peripheral recognition of the

person, the individual (& by extension the real global community), the real

human being operating the machine. The idea of and belief in specialization

as the only path, only possibility, has sped up the fragmentation, the

alienation which began to grow rapidly within the individual, radically

reshaping culture, a century ago with the birth of those Machiavellian

revolutions in technology, industry, and war. And with the growing fracturing

fragmentation and alienation come the path - anger, fear, anxiety, angst,

ennui, nihilism, depression, despair - that, for the person of action, leads

to suicide. Unless, through our paradoxical leap of faith we engage ourselves

in the belief, which can become a life mission, that, regardless of the

consequences, we can, through our engagement, our actions, our loving life

work, make the world a better, safer, friendlier place in which to live.

Sound naive? Are we too desensitized to the violence, to the fact that in

this Century alone we have murdered over 100 million people in one war after

another, to even think it worthwhile to consider the possibility of a less

violent world? Are we too small, too insignificant to make any kind of

difference? The power-mongers have control. What difference can one measly

little individual life possibly make, possibly matter?

Today the sadly mislabeled Generation X is swollen with thousands of young

people yearning to express the creative energy buried in their hearts,

seeping from their lips, eyes, ears, noses, fingers etc. They ache to change

to heal the world. Is it still possible? Is it too late? Is there anyone (a

group?) left to show the way? To set an example? To be a guide? A mentor?

James Joyce, King of Modernism, said the idea of the hero was nothing but a

damn lie that the primary motivating forces are passion and compassion. As

late as 1984 people were laughing at George Orwell. today as we finally move

full force into an Orwellian culture of simulation life on the screen

landscape can we remember passion and compassion or has the Postmodern ironic

satyric deathinlifegame laugh killed both sperm and egg? Is there anywhere

worth going from here?

In 1996, at the age of 77, Lawrence Ferlinghetti is as active as he was forty

years ago when he became engaged as a poet, writer, editor, publisher,

artist, and operator of the bookstore and press that quickly became, and

still is, the Mecca of small, independent, individually owned and operated

bookstores and presses and their associated writers and readers. In a world,

in an age where multi-national corporations and militaries are controlling

more and more of what the masses think, say, and do City Lights has become so

significant, a bright and shining star in an ever darkening sky.

I've heard (and read) the comment made about Lawrence Ferlinghetti that he's

a businessman. If Lawrence Ferlinghetti is a businessman then so was James

Joyce. And if James Joyce was a writer then so is Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

Certain people have said they respect Lawrence Ferlinghetti for what he's

done as a publisher but have doubts about his writing. I say those people

have not read, have not studied deeply Lawrence Ferlinghetti' poetry and

prose. Early critics of James Joyce made statements, placed labels, that

reveal now that they didn't examine Joyce's work carefully, or couldn't

understand his work and therefore denigrated the work and the person (yes you

can certainly place Burroughs, Kerouac, & Ginsberg here too). Despite the

access of a broader audience than most of the Beats and San Francisco

Renaissance writers, Lawrence Ferlinghetti's poetry and prose has a depth, a

deep resonance in emotional and literary allusion and connection to the

family of modern (as well as postmodern & beyond) writers, artists, and

musicians that is equal to any of the writers he is so often compared to or

even worse whose group he is left out of when comparisons are made

i.e. Ginsberg, Burroughs, Corso, Kerouac. There are several reasons for this

and I'll only touch on a couple here: Lawrence Ferlinghetti does not, neither

in live performance, nor on the page, slap you in the face, hit you over the

head, or yell in your ear. And there's nothing wrong with any of the above

it's just that Ferlinghetti approaches the listener, the reader differently

(like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Corso: try & imagine a similar voice). He

emphatically whispers, gently sings, his poems, his prose, in such a subtle,

yet forceful, manner that he mesmerizes, hypnotizes and takes us to a land, a

place, where we recognize that there are alternative realities, there is the

probability, through inner and outer action, of a number (infinite?) of other

possible experiences, realities, worlds we can choose for our selves, our

lives. Even the blank spaces between his words are filled with the audible

sound of the universe, the OM which presents us with the recognition that we

don't have to only specialize to succeed. And that same sound implores us to

question: whose vision of success are we buying, accepting anyway? The ones

we're sold by coporations and militaries or are we looking within to discover

our own? Ferlinghetti's work leads us to the path of realization that we

don't ever have to accept what is expected of us, what we're told to do and

to be. Question everything before we accept anything.

Lawrence Ferlinghetti has not been considered as he should be, as his life

and work calls out, pleads, compels us to consider, to examine, to

experience, to attempt to understand. Because of his association with The

Beats, The San Francisco Renaissance, The Outsiders of Academia he has not

been accepted into the academy's Canon. Because of his so-called Business

Association through City Lights he has not been accepted into the inner Beat

Canon. Lawrence Ferlinghetti has influenced and continues to influence our

collective culture in more individually human ways as only a small handful of

poets, writers, artists, and musicians have been able to manage in the past

hundred years. The time has come to open our doors, let down our walls and

let in the light, give recognition to this Misunderstood American Giant,

Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

Ron Whitehead 5/23/96 11:14PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:54:35 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Thorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: SHE HER Ferlinghetti Burroughs & Chicago Review

A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND has sold more copies internationally than any book

of poems by any living poet.

I'm as willing as the next person to give Ferlinghetti

his due

but this claim sounds overstated...

I'd be interested to know the sales figures

on which it's based

Michael Thorn

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 18:58:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: SHE HER Ferlinghetti Burroughs & Chicago Review

Hello Michael! Yer absolutely right. it is overstated. by any living American

poet is correct. thank you for correcting me. as to verifying figures check

any number of sources. All the Best, Ron Whitehead 5/24/96 6:57PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:04:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: A CONEY ISLAND OF THE NUMBERS

Hello again! Right after I sent Ferlinghetti message last night I copied &

read & saw immediately that I had left out American & so implication was

world sales. Thanks again to Michael for correcting me. I'll be kick me in

the ass and thump my ears. See ya'll.

Ron "Rollo" Whitehead 5/24/96 7:03PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:16:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: A CONEY ISLAND OF THE NUMBERS

At 07:04 PM 5/24/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello again! Right after I sent Ferlinghetti message last night I copied &

>read & saw immediately that I had left out American & so implication was

>world sales. Thanks again to Michael for correcting me. I'll be kick me in

>the ass and thump my ears. See ya'll.

>Ron "Rollo" Whitehead 5/24/96 7:03PM

>

>Without a doubt he is one of the best poets and also a real nice guy. I

have met him several times at the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Festival. If

anyone out there hasn't read "Canticle of Jack Kerouac" I highly recommend

it. It is my favorite of his and he is my favorite poet. Has anyone heard

how his health is? I heard he had a bypass operation. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:15:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ferlinghetti's health

Hello Phil & anyone else interested in Lawrence Ferlinghetti's health. Spring

'95 I visited with Lawrence for 3 days at Univ of Charleston, West Virginia.

He had spell with heart then. In NYC at NYU's Jack Kerouac Symposium, June

'95, Lawrence had several spells with heart but refused to see doctor. Upon

return to San Francisco heart spells intensifying he visited his physician

who rushed him to hospital saying it was almost too late & a wonder he'd made

this long. Touch & go for a while but Lawrence rebounded like a kid and by

August when I visited him in San Francisco he was already working out with

Nancy Peters, moving at furious pace doing final editing on City Lights'

Anthology, & looking at least 95% back to full throttle. Talked with him

several times over phone & could sense energy returning then visited with him

early this month in D.C. & he's back to 110% kicking ass taking the heat the

flack the lonely voiced criticism of him being a shrewd businessman bullshit

& proving through his poetry (reading at National Portrait Gallery with

Ginsberg, Corso, McClure, Creeley, Amram, etc) & his open friendly &

supportive attitude towards newcomers & oldcomers that he is (despite

mistakes he's made & despite criticism attempting to stone him out of inner

Beat circle) one of the truly great humanitarian individualists & poets in

this beaten down ramshackled world. Lawrence is in Italy now until June

seeing to opening(s) of art exhibition at Palazzo Delle Espofizione (The

Museum of Modern Art in Rome). Thanks for asking!

Later, Ron Whitehead 5/25/96 10:53PM

P.S. World Premiere of 57-minute documentary on Lawrence Ferlinghetti by

Chris Felver (along with release celebration of Chris' new book of photograph

portraits of famous poets & writers. Coppola has had hand in production of

documentary) will be held at

big event in New Orleans I'm producing August 16-18 called: RANT for the

literary renaissance & The Majic Bus present RANT eats New Orleans 48-Hour

Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON Aug 16-18 at The Howlin Wolf Club &

The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center. Actually looks like may be

57-hours. Event will feature numerous old & new voices poets writers

musicians bands including Diane di Prima, Ed Sanders, Robert Creeley,

Lawrence Ferlinghetti, David Amram, Andrei Codrescu, John Rechy, E. Ethelbert

Miller, Jay McInerney, Mike Watt & band, Pere Ubu, Lee Ranaldo, Yo La Tengo,

Richard Hell, Robert Palmer, Julian Bond, Todd Colby, Brenda Coultas, Leah

Singer, The Black Pig Liberation Front, Louis Bickett & The Cultural Mud Man,

Frank Messina & Spoken Motion, The Amazing Chan Klan, Marsallis Family,

Ishmael Reed, John Sinclair, Ramblin Jack Elliott, Dennis Formento, Kalamu

Yasalaam, Arthur Pfister, & numerous others plus special guest appearances

plus SPECIAL ERECTION CEREMONY OF HISTORIC MARKER AT WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS

ALGERS HOME. CORPSE (formerly EXQUISITE CORPSE) devoting entire issue to

INSOMNIACATHON. TRIBE magazine promoting event plus devoting entire August

issue to event. COMPOST magazine (Boston, NYC) devoting entire issue to

Ferlinghetti based round/on event.

I'm doing booking for performers now & will be completely done no later than

June 15th (headed to New Orleans immediately following Sunday reading.

meeting with Douglas Brinkley, Lee Lavere, TRIBE, CORPSE). Any questions bout

performance or event give me a holler at RWhiteBone@aol.com or 502-568-4956.

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 09:25:20 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Re: Ferlinghetti's health

In-Reply-To: <960525111510_203808230@emout18.mail.aol.com>

In your message you mention that John Rechy will be at INSOMNIACATHON.

His "City of Night" is still one of my favourite books of the period.

What is he up to now?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:17:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kathleen Kennedy <kk30@CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: unsubscribe

Please cancel my subscription to this listserv.

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:23:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Testing

forza@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:08:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher D. Ritter" <corduroy@DONET.COM>

Organization: Corduroy's Coffeehouse

Subject: Test

__________

.........| ____________________________

.o..o..o.|

.........| CORDUROY'S COFFEEHOUSE

--------.| & literary cafe

==|_| ||

==[===] || http://www.serve.com/Critter

|___| ||

--------.| christopher d. ritter

..KRUPS..| corduroy@donet.com

.........| ____________________________

========

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 09:35:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ferlinghetti's health

For what its worth, I thought Lawrence Ferlingetti looked great at the Rebel

Poets symposium in Wash DC last month. I've seen him a few times before,

often he seemed sort of bothered and generally pissed off. Not last month!

He seemed real relaxed and moved witth as much as can be expected for a

fellow of his age. Long may his light burn!

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:14:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher D. Ritter" <corduroy@DONET.COM>

Organization: Corduroy's Coffeehouse

Subject: Requested Information on the Avant-Liste

It's been awhile since I've been able to do anything with

the Inet, but I have information that a few people were asking

for. Hopefully this isn't out of place too much.

The Avant-Liste: Through the Large Looking Glass

-------------------===========------------------

The Avant-Listserve is now up and running, ready to receive

the masses of pseudo-intellectuals jonesing for a heated debate

on the progressive arts. From poetry to prose, drama and cinema,

nothing is left unscrutinized! Join us with a digital demitasse-

full of your favorite bean fluid and bring your work! Not only

do we discuss the masters of art and literature, but we also

share our own! (Pre-teen angst poets and little love couplet

writers need not apply.)

To subscribe to the Avant-Liste, simply send a message to:

listproc@list.serve.com

With the following message in the body (and NO subject):

subscribe avant-liste [your name]

If you have any questions on the nature of the list or anything

else, please contact the list owner, christopher ritter.

..Critter

--

__________ CORDUROY'S COFFEEHOUSE

.........| & literary cafe

.o..o..o.| - http://www.serve.com/Critter -

.........|

--------.| christopher d. ritter

==|_| || - corduroy@donet.com -

==[===] ||

|___| || - The Avant-Liste -

--------.| To subscribe send a message to:

..KRUPS..| listproc@list.serve.com

.........| With no subject, in the body type:

======== SUBSCRIBE AVANT-LISTE [YOUR NAME]

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:09:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVID W MYERS <dwm3766@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ferlinghetti's health

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <960527093511_204667835@emout13.mail.aol.com>

Hello group,

I'm new to this list, and I have a (possibly) naive question to ask.

Does anyone know of an annotated version of On the Road? I am interested

in making an index of places, characters, events, etc. in OTR for the

use of scholars or general readership.

I understand it is unusual to index a work of fiction. But because

Kerouac modelled his fiction so closely on his real life I think this may

be a useful finding aid for scholars and others searching for quotes,

story lines, or anything else needed for an essay or article.

I would love to hear some comments about this idea.

David Myers

School of Library and Information Science

Florida State University

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:49:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: annotated Joyce & Kerouac

Hello David Myers & anyone else interested in Annotated Kerouac. The new A

Jack Kerouac ROMnibus includes annotations to works (i.e. The Dharma Bums) &

in a way is itlself an annotation to the life of Jack Kerouac. As to an

Annotated On the Road (as in annotated like James Joyce's work for use by

students scholars & other interested peoples outside the Ivory Tower of

Academia) check with David Stanford, Senior Editor, Viking Penguin, 375

Hudson Street, 4th Floor, NY NY 10014.

All the Best, Ron Whitehead RWhiteBone@aol.com 5/28/96 1:49PM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:31:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Subject: 23

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960528125650.20122A-100000@mailer.fsu.edu>

Where can I find William Burroughs' explanation of his use (and the power

of) the number "23"? I also recall reading some encyclopedia of

mysticism (by Colin Wilson?) on the subject of the number 23. Anybody

know these references?

Born on the 23rd of July,

PGS

"To be great is to be misunderstood." -- Emerson

"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- Barth

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:12:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: 23

> Where can I find William Burroughs' explanation of his use (and the power

> of) the number "23"?

In Jennie Skerl's book she mentions that she asked Burroughs if the

number 23 had any special significance and he said, "No, it's just a

number." Not sure about the page number, but you can probably find it in

the index or something.

The most frequent use I've ever seen of the number 23 was in the Dead

Star magazine. The entire story revolved around the number 23 showing up

as the day Dutch Schultz died, the number of casualties in a plane crash,

number of victims in an earthquake. Burroughs includes pictures of the

newspaper headlines and articles with the number 23 underlined so you can

see that he wasn't making it up. Of course there is the language virus

B-23 that one sees extensively in his work. But B-23 also mutates into a

sexual virus in Blade Runner: A Movie. It seems Burroughs chose an

arbitrary number that kept showing up with unusual frequency in horrible

situations. 23 is the number of doom. And of course once you recognise a

number as special, you will take note of it every time it comes up.

Good Luck finding any more info. That's the only mention of it I can

remember.

Cheers,

Neil

"At guard from North Carolina, Number 23, Michael Jordan"

Chicago Bulls announcer

PS Here is the biblio info for The Dead Star:

The Dead Star

Nova Broadcast Press, San Francisco, 1969.

I found it in the rare book room of The University of Waterloo library. I

don't imagine you would find it anywhere but a rare book collection.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:43:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Testing, again:)

Timothy Leary is dying, and I don't feel very good myself...

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 02:09:51 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: 23

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On May 28, 1996 15:12:47, 'Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>' wrote:

>. 23 is the number of doom. And of course once you recognise a

>number as special, you will take note of it every time it comes up.

>

>Good Luck finding any more info. That's the only mention of it I can

>remember.

>

>Cheers,

>Neil

>

>"At guard from North Carolina, Number 23, Michael Jordan"

Don't forget "23 skidoo," a "hip" saying from the twenties and the title of

a performance art piece co-produced by Burroughs years ago in NYC. Mark J

>Chicago Bulls announcer

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:38:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: Kerouac's picaresque novels

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this Beat list, but I'm really excited about talking with

all of you about some of the best best writers and poets this country has

yet produced. I study quite a bit of Spanish and Spanish American

literature; given that, I've been very interested in an apocryphal statement

of Kerouac's where he claimed that "all of my novels are really picaresque

novels"--or something like that. He may have said it towards the end of his

life. Does anyone know about it or where I could find it?

Best,

Dan Nappo

ps. I sent this letter out earlier this week, but because of some computer

glitches, I never received and responses--in fact, I'm not even sure it was

mailed. If you've read this before, please be patient with a computer

semi-literate.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:09:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's picaresque novels

At 10:38 PM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,

> I'm new to this Beat list, but I'm really excited about talking with

>all of you about some of the best best writers and poets this country has

>yet produced. I study quite a bit of Spanish and Spanish American

>literature; given that, I've been very interested in an apocryphal statement

>of Kerouac's where he claimed that "all of my novels are really picaresque

>novels"--or something like that. He may have said it towards the end of his

>life. Does anyone know about it or where I could find it?

>

He said it and meant it! All his novels deal with picaresque(dealing with

sharpwited vagabonds and there rougish adventures) What could be more

Kerowakian than that. That statment was not apocryphal YOU ARE APOCRYPHAL!

Kerouac is the teller of truths he wasn't a lier he was a man of God.

His beleives that

Wild men who kill

have karmas of ill

Good men who love

have karmas of dove

>Dan Nappo

>

>ps. I sent this letter out earlier this week, but because of some computer

>glitches, I never received and responses--in fact, I'm not even sure it was

>mailed. If you've read this before, please be patient with a computer

>semi-literate.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 06:12:39 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marcus Williamson <71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Number 23

See :

http://www.impropaganda.com/~street/detour/23.html

For the following info plus more about the number

23.

regards

Marcus

Burrough's 23 Enigma

In the early '60's in Tangier, William

Burroughs knew a certain Captain

Clark who ran a ferry from Tangier

to Spain. One day, Clark said to

Burroughs that he'd been running

the ferry 23 years without an

accident. That very day the ferry

sank, killing Clark and everybody

aboard. In the evening, Burroughs

was thinking about this when he

turned on the radio. The first

newscast told about the crash of

an airline plane on the New

York-Miami route. The pilot was

another Captain Clark and the

flight was listed as Flight 23 (ala

the line "Captain Clark welcomes

you aboard,")

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 07:50:45 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: 23

I *think* the origin of the 23 as a "charged" number with odd significance,

usign the examples below originated in the conspiracy free-for-all trilogy

by Robert Anton Wilson and a co-author known as the Illuminatus trilogy,

circa 1970's. At least, that's where I first read about it.

Jon Schwartz

jbs@uwyo.edu

>

>> Where can I find William Burroughs' explanation of his use (and the power

>> of) the number "23"?

>

>In Jennie Skerl's book she mentions that she asked Burroughs if the

>number 23 had any special significance and he said, "No, it's just a

>number." Not sure about the page number, but you can probably find it in

>the index or something.

>

>The most frequent use I've ever seen of the number 23 was in the Dead

>Star magazine. The entire story revolved around the number 23 showing up

>as the day Dutch Schultz died, the number of casualties in a plane crash,

>number of victims in an earthquake. Burroughs includes pictures of the

>newspaper headlines and articles with the number 23 underlined so you can

>see that he wasn't making it up. Of course there is the language virus

>B-23 that one sees extensively in his work. But B-23 also mutates into a

>sexual virus in Blade Runner: A Movie. It seems Burroughs chose an

>arbitrary number that kept showing up with unusual frequency in horrible

>situations. 23 is the number of doom. And of course once you recognise a

>number as special, you will take note of it every time it comes up.

>

>Good Luck finding any more info. That's the only mention of it I can

>remember.

>

>Cheers,

>Neil

>

>"At guard from North Carolina, Number 23, Michael Jordan"

> Chicago Bulls announcer

>

>PS Here is the biblio info for The Dead Star:

>

>The Dead Star

>Nova Broadcast Press, San Francisco, 1969.

>

>I found it in the rare book room of The University of Waterloo library. I

>don't imagine you would find it anywhere but a rare book collection.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:12:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: 23

In-Reply-To: <199605290209.CAA15032@pipe2.t2.usa.pipeline.com> from "s. mark

johnson" at May 29, 96 02:09:51 am

> >. 23 is the number of doom. And of course once you recognise a

> >number as special, you will take note of it every time it comes up.

> >

> >Good Luck finding any more info. That's the only mention of it I can

> >remember.

> >

> >Cheers,

> >Neil

> >

> >"At guard from North Carolina, Number 23, Michael Jordan"

>

>

> Don't forget "23 skidoo," a "hip" saying from the twenties and the title of

> a performance art piece co-produced by Burroughs years ago in NYC. Mark J

> >Chicago Bulls announcer

in jitterbug perfume.....K23.....and timothy leary may be leaving this

world, but tis a far far better place he is going.....you don't need

america online to be connected....

read some of "women" the other day in that decadent barnes and noble on

66th and broadway....felt so touched by this man that i cried...i pity

the women who find his truth offensive....i see the women in this

book....i was a woman in this book....i am now a woman the likes of which i

have never known, but i remember the pain in the lack of

communication.....very touching.....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:10:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's picaresque novels

At 11:09 PM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:

>At 10:38 PM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:

>>Hello everyone,

>> I'm new to this Beat list, but I'm really excited about talking with

>>all of you about some of the best best writers and poets this country has

>>yet produced. I study quite a bit of Spanish and Spanish American

>>literature; given that, I've been very interested in an apocryphal statement

>>of Kerouac's where he claimed that "all of my novels are really picaresque

>>novels"--or something like that. He may have said it towards the end of his

>>life. Does anyone know about it or where I could find it?

>>

>He said it and meant it! All his novels deal with picaresque(dealing with

>sharpwited vagabonds and there rougish adventures) What could be more

>Kerowakian than that. That statment was not apocryphal YOU ARE APOCRYPHAL!

>Kerouac is the teller of truths he wasn't a lier he was a man of God.

> His beleives that

> Wild men who kill

> have karmas of ill

> Good men who love

> have karmas of dove

>

>Hope you didn't take this seriously WELCOME TO THE LIST. P.C.

>

>

>

>

>>Dan Nappo

>>

>>ps. I sent this letter out earlier this week, but because of some computer

>>glitches, I never received and responses--in fact, I'm not even sure it was

>>mailed. If you've read this before, please be patient with a computer

>>semi-literate.

>>

>>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:07:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: 23

>I *think* the origin of the 23 as a "charged" number with odd >significance,

using the examples below originated in the >conspiracy free-for-all trilogy

by Robert Anton Wilson and a >co-author known as the Illuminatus trilogy,

circa 1970's. At >least, that's where I first read about it.

Me too, however Burroughs' interest in the number dates back farther. There

was a brief thread several months ago here on this topic. I can't find the

original message(s), but the gist of it is that while Burroughs was in

Tangier, he ran across a newspaper article about a grisly murder which

occurred at a place with the street number 23. Several days later, he found

another article, this one, I believe, about a shipwreck, and the birthdate of

the ship's captain was the 23rd. {I may have some of theses details a bit

garbled, but hopefully you get the idea.) He began collecting occurrences of

the number 23, and, as Neil Hennessey points out: "once you recognise a

number as special, you will take note of it every time it comes up."

Incidentally, 23 is a prime number, its integers, 2 & 3, are considered to

have mystical significance in their own right, and they add up to five, also

considered a mystical number, and the base of our arithmetic system besides.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:34:22 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Camaiani <tony.c@RINASCITA.IT>

Subject: Beat in Italy

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@ICINECA.CINECA.IT

Hi Everybody,

I am an Italian Guy ang I have read about This Mailinglist

on a Newspaper(called Musica)

I have read something of Jack Kerouac and I wanto to ask

you some material about Him (some Poems ...and other)

Or some interessant URL

Thank to all

______ ____ ___ ______ ___

/ \ / \ | \| |\ \/ /

\__ __/| ~ || | \ /

|__| \____/ |__|\__| |__| ... ON Z BEACH

~ Camaiani Antonio ~

- tony.c@rinascita.it -- camaiani@cs.unibo.it -

- www.cs.unibo.it/~camaiani -

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 08:00:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat in Italy

In-Reply-To: <9605301234.AA01069@cygnus.rinascita.it>

Hello all,

I've been reading the Joan Baez memoir "And a VOice to Sing With."

Has anyone else read it? It reminds me of other memoirs of the women

Beats that I have read (How I became Hettie JOnes, and Minor Characters),

and I was wondering if anyone has read other books or articles linking

Baez to the Beat movement.... say, like they (whoever they are) link Bob

Dylan to the Beat movement. I've seen Bob in anthologies, but not Joan...

Just curious. Any thoughts?

JoAnne

jruvoli@orion.it.luc.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:20:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Number 23

On Wed, 29 May 1996 18:07:35 -0400 "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.com>

wrote:

> Incidentally, 23 is a prime number, its integers, 2 & 3, are considered to

> have mystical significance in their own right, and they add up to

> five, also

> considered a mystical number, and the base of our arithmetic system

> besides.

Last time I checked our number system was base 10.

Neil

"I'm literary, I take math to mortify myself."

J.P. Sartre

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:30:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Beat in Italy

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 May 1996 14:34:22 +0200 from

<tony.c@RINASCITA.IT>

I suggest that you read On The Road to begin with. You might also check

variousanthologies and books translated by Nanda Pivano.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:26:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Joan Baez

You might want to try posting this question to the rec.music.dylan

newsgroup. Baez doesn't have one of her own, but this newsgroup is filled

with people who have heard tons of duets at least. Baez would have know

Ginsberg since he was hanging around Dylan from the mid-60's all the

way through to the mid-70's. Ginsberg plays a wonderful part as "The

Father" in Dylan's much maligned opus "Renaldo & Clara" in which Baez

plays a lousy part as "The Woman in White". The judgement of Baez's

role does not necessarily reflect poorly on her, but perhaps on Dylan's

use of her and choice of footage including her.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:50:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat in Italy

A major photo exhibition of Jack Keroauc and Lowell will be opening in

Milan in the next couple of weeks. This should provide a good

introduction. I'll have to find the details. By the way, the exhibit will

be in Lowell during the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.

Mark Hemenway

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:51:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Yossef Mendelssohn <citizenx@MAIL.PHOENIX.NET>

Subject: Re: Number 23

At 09:20 AM 5/30/96 -0400, you wrote:

>On Wed, 29 May 1996 18:07:35 -0400 "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.com>

>wrote:

>

>> Incidentally, 23 is a prime number, its integers, 2 & 3, are considered to

>> have mystical significance in their own right, and they add up to

>> five, also

>> considered a mystical number, and the base of our arithmetic system

>> besides.

>

>Last time I checked our number system was base 10.

>Neil

>

okay, okay. You have a point there; our number system is base 10. But last

time I checked, I had two hands with five fingers each. In a way, five is

the base of our number system.

-yossef

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:52:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: That magic number, 23

>Last time I checked our number system was base 10.

>Neil

Okay, so math was never my strong-point.

I guess I was thinking that in the anthropological sense, people probably

started counting their fingers, and there are five fingers on each hand (and

five toes on each foot, leading one to wonder why we don't compute in Base

20).

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:51:47 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Number 23 (Maybe its just a coincidence, but... )

May it IS just a coincidence, but...

On August 23:

The St. Bartholomew's Massacre occured in 1572

Rudolph Valentino died in 1926

Sacco and Vanzetti were executed in 1927

The Nazi-Soviet pact was signed in 1939; WWII started one week later

I was born in 1949

Yusef Hawkins was killed in Brooklyn, 1989

George

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:31:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Dylan? A Beat?

Comments: To: BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu.

Hi, all:

I'd like anyone and everyone's opinion as to Bob's being considered a

Beat. I believe Ann Charters has a couple of his poems (songs) in her

anthology. IMHO, I believe he should be considered a Beat. I welcome any

response on this. If one considers Bob, then I suppose Joan must also be

considered, but with this consideration of both of them, politics plays a

hefty role.

Also, if you haven't checked out Tim Leary's new web page, take the time

to do it, if you're so inclined. He has expanded the whole site, also

including "chat rooms" where people go in and talk on-line. There is one

topic room devoted only to Kerouac and the Beats. Browsers are encouraged

to open up their own "topics", etc. Very interesting.

Chris

forza@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:38:55 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat? (fwd)

Check out Dylan's movie 'Renaldo & Clara' puts Dylan right on the beat map!

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:11:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat?

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 May 1996 18:31:43 -0400 from <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Dylan certainly isn't a member of the Beat Generation as such. He is

too young to be part of the original group. But he was strongly

influenced by the Beats, particularly by Kerouac and Ginsberg. He also

shares an interest with those whoinfluenced Kerouac & Ginsberg -- like

Rimbaud and the Surrealists. During the 1960s he shared the same turf

with some of the Beats -- the Village Coffee housesand cafes. Dylan is

close to the Beats for poetic reasons. Phil Ochs and Joan Baez shared

political concerns with Allen Ginsberg, particularly in terms of their

opposition to the Vietnam War. I like to call Dylan and those who were

influenced by the Beats "New Beats."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:53:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Number 23

In-Reply-To: <199605302051.PAA08206@mail.phoenix.net> from "Yossef

Mendelssohn" at May 30, 96 03:51:07 pm

> >> have mystical significance in their own right, and they add up to

> >> five, also

> >> considered a mystical number, and the base of our arithmetic system

> >> besides.

> >

> >Last time I checked our number system was base 10.

> >Neil

> >

> okay, okay. You have a point there; our number system is base 10. But last

> time I checked, I had two hands with five fingers each. In a way, five is

> the base of our number system.

>

> -yossef

>

e = 2.7182...

pi = 3.14....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 08:17:47 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Number 23

In-Reply-To: <199605311453.KAA16976@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

Actually, five is not the base of our number system. I hate to be

pedantic, but the number system is not based on five, but on ten, because

after the ninth digit, we add another digit-place, and that's how you

determine what a number system is based on - how many numbers it takes to

add another digit. So our number system is not based on five. If it

were, we'd count like

1

2

3

4

11 -this equals five in base ten

12 -six

13 -seven, etc...

14

20

21

22

23

24

30

Eternally Dreaming,

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

On Fri, 31 May 1996, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

> > >> have mystical significance in their own right, and they add up to

> > >> five, also

> > >> considered a mystical number, and the base of our arithmetic system

> > >> besides.

> > >

> > >Last time I checked our number system was base 10.

> > >Neil

> > >

> > okay, okay. You have a point there; our number system is base 10. But last

> > time I checked, I had two hands with five fingers each. In a way, five is

> > the base of our number system.

> >

> > -yossef

> >

>

> e = 2.7182...

> pi = 3.14....

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:59:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Tim Leary Passes away

Tim Leary died today.

In his book Flashbacks he describes his only bad trip (or at least his first

one or the only one he would admit to) as being the one with Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:19:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Leary?

Tim died? His website said he was feeling fine and his cancer seemed to

be in remission...he was supposed to have a large cybercast of his death,

but his website won't respond when I try to access it...what happened?

upset,

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:28:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Leary?

At 11:19 AM 5/31/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Tim died? His website said he was feeling fine and his cancer seemed to

>be in remission...he was supposed to have a large cybercast of his death,

>but his website won't respond when I try to access it...what happened?

>

> upset,

> jonathan

>

>=========================

>Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

My guess is the website is very crowded after the news.

I heard the news on KFI (a local LA station) driving in to work this morning.

The report said he had friends and family by his side.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:49:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Cosmic!

Today, on May 31st, 1996, just after midnight, Timothy Leary passed

away. He was seventy five years old. He died in his bedroom surrounded

by close friends. His last words were "why not?" and "yeah."

Interesting, isn't it, that he died just after midnight? Almsot

as if he was hanging on until today. Well, I looked, and, believe it or

not, May 31st is Walt Whitman's birthday. Walt Whitman, of course, is

whom both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg (both friends of Leary)

referred to as the "original beat"...cosmic, isn't it?

Eternally Dreaming,

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:46:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat? (fwd)

I don't mean to be disagreeable but I'm just a little tired of the "who is a

beat" discussions -- Bukowski? Kesey? Dylan? Charlie Parker? Trochhi? Jerry

Garcia? Dylan?

Abbie Hoffman? Tim Leary? Norman Mailer?

On one hand purists insist that to be beat ment that one had to be present at

Columbia U on such and such a date or Tangier, or San Francisco in 1956, or

somewhere else, and partied or read/wrote with the "big three". Others

consider everyone who ever read On The Road or meditated with AG a beat.

Some people take this discussion quite seriously. I guess its interesting

to know when Dylan read OTR or what he has said about the subject, of course

it is interesting. What I don't find interesting are the self-appointed

guardians of the label "beat" who take delight in flaming anyone who

disagrees with them.

Why can't it suffice to say that these people (fill in the blank) were

greatly influenced by the beats and can use the label if they want. The term

"beat" is NOT copyrighted by the estate of Jack Kerouac or anyone else. It

belongs to everybody who wants it - "Believe it if you need it, if you don't

just pass it on" (Robert Hunter).

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:09:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat? (fwd)

At 03:46 PM 5/31/96 -0400, you wrote:

>I don't mean to be disagreeable but I'm just a little tired of the "who is a

>beat" discussions -- Bukowski? Kesey? Dylan? Charlie Parker? Trochhi? Jerry

>Garcia? Dylan?

>Abbie Hoffman? Tim Leary? Norman Mailer?

>

>On one hand purists insist that to be beat ment that one had to be present at

>Columbia U on such and such a date or Tangier, or San Francisco in 1956, or

>somewhere else, and partied or read/wrote with the "big three". Others

>consider everyone who ever read On The Road or meditated with AG a beat.

> Some people take this discussion quite seriously. I guess its interesting

>to know when Dylan read OTR or what he has said about the subject, of course

>it is interesting. What I don't find interesting are the self-appointed

>guardians of the label "beat" who take delight in flaming anyone who

>disagrees with them.

>

>Why can't it suffice to say that these people (fill in the blank) were

>greatly influenced by the beats and can use the label if they want. The term

>"beat" is NOT copyrighted by the estate of Jack Kerouac or anyone else. It

>belongs to everybody who wants it - "Believe it if you need it, if you don't

>just pass it on" (Robert Hunter).

>

>Howard Park

>

>Jesus Christ was definitely a beat. Nixon was definitely not a beat.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:12:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Howard Park on whose Beat

Thanks to Howard Park for breath of fresh air open the windows & doors

comments on whose BEAT! Fall '93 I asked Allen Ginsberg how he felt about Bob

Dylan which prompted a long & fascinating response. Ron Whitehead

RWhiteBone@aol.com

5/31/96 9:11PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:18:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: HE WAS A CROOK

One of the finest pieces of writing in this fair land is Dr. Hunter S.

Thompson's HE WAS A CROOK (Nixon Obituary. Did Published in Heaven Poster of

this piece with Chris Felver photo of Hunter.) Thank sweet beat Jesus that

Nixon WAS finally beat.

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:46:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: I WILL NOT BOW DOWN, math, & #23

"I pledge allegiance to fractal geometry

the geometry of clouds and coastlines

to 2x2 equalling 5

I pledge allegiance to Failure

to failing as no other dare fail

I pledge allegiance to taking risks

to holing daring" (from Ron Whitehead's "I Will Not Bow Down")

Whitehead was born 11-23-50, Thanksgiving Day, in the midst of the worst

blizzard to ever hit Kentucky. He's had one dramatically "Rolloish"

successful failure after another ever since. What is success? What is

failure?

3 Edgar Cayce trained psychics & 7 astrologers including master Hindu-Vedic

Cayce astrologer Ry Redd (TOWARDS A NEW ASTROLOGY) all concur that they've

never seen such a powerful successful Jupiter as Whitehead's particularly

related to international community of writers artists musicians. They all say

this success should last thru 2016 at which time, aged 66, he will die.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 23:05:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: Beat or no?

The classification of writers into their own groups and movements is

often making something out of nothing. It can appear arbitrary, as if the

all-mighty custodians of the canon simply decided that undergraduate

literature students needed more terminology to memorize: the Jena circle,

the Grasmere circle, the Symbolists, the Generacion del 1898, the Beats,

etc. More than arbitrary, it can seem forced. Why include William Blake,

for example, among the BIG FIVE English Romantics (Wordsworth, Coleridge,

Keats, and Byron)? The two who actually knew Blake thought he was a nut.

On the other hand, I think in the case of "the Beats" (for the sake

of argument let's go with Charters' Portable Reader roll call) the question

of who is and who is not SHOULD be asked--and not simply for the convenience

of anthology editors. If similarities of style, symbol and theme exist

between writers of a particular time and they are grouped together by a

term, then the determination of them as an important cultural and artistic

development is easier to arrive at. Strength in numbers. When you really

think about it, aside from their (short-lived) association at Columbia,

tripping, and the fact they slept with one another, what do the "core"

Beats--Ginsberg, Kerouac, Burroughs--have in common at all? Did Ginsberg

adopt the "Spontaneous Prose" technique? Did Kerouac share Ginsberg's

politics? How much poetry did Burroughs write? Why is Ginsberg

consistently anthologized and the other two are not (Kerouac was dumped from

the 1984 Norton edition)? While I believe they were an important cultural

and artistic development, I wonder how frequently the term "Beat" has been

kicked around for commercial rather than literary considerations. Asking

whether Dylan or Bukowski was Beat is not a meaningless exercise of some

vague hegemony; I think it is an invitation to read the Beats critically,

discover similarities/differences, and make an even stronger case for their

value and greatness.

In any case, I would think such a line of inquiry would be more

interesting than exhausting interpretations of the number 23 and arguing

whether or not our number system is base 10.

Dan Nappo

"To act without understanding and to do so habitually without examination,

following certain courses all their lives without knowing the principles

behind them--this is the way of the multitude."

--Mencius

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:40:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat?

Check out "Rolling Thunder Logbook" by Sam Shepherd and "On the Road with Bob

Dylan" by Larry Sloman. Many connections of Dylan to the Beat Movement

including a filmed segment, chronicled in both books and appearing in "Renaldo

and Clara," of Dylan, Shepherd and Ginsberg improvising blues and poetry at

Kerouac's grave.

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:08:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Bobby Singh wrote recently asking if there were any magazines on the Beats in

the USA. I edit one, The Kerouac Connection, which has been around for 11

years. Finances have been tough lately but a new issue is coming out soon.

Subscriptions are $20 for 4 issues, to The Kerouac Connection, PO Box 462004,

Escondido, CA, 92046-2004. Foreign subscribers may pay by check in their

country's equivalent of $20 US.

Mitchell Smith, keroconnec@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:44:31 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Adam & Lin Hua-fang <alaska@HK.SUPER.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5070.854D1040

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mitchell,

What sorts of items are there in KC?

Gene Adam/Hong Kong

----------

From: Mitchell Smith[SMTP:Kerolist@AOL.COM]

Sent: Sunday, 2 June 1996 9:08

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Bobby Singh wrote recently asking if there were any magazines on the Beats in

the USA. I edit one, The Kerouac Connection, which has been around for 11

years. Finances have been tough lately but a new issue is coming out soon.

Subscriptions are $20 for 4 issues, to The Kerouac Connection, PO Box 462004,

Escondido, CA, 92046-2004. Foreign subscribers may pay by check in their

country's equivalent of $20 US.

Mitchell Smith, keroconnec@aol.com

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5070.854D1040

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=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:32:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat? (fwd)

Ok, yes - Nixon was definately not a beat. Christ? - probably. Whitman? -

definately.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 00:31:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Emily L. User." <Queen79099@AOL.COM>

Subject: Lowell info, please

I am intrigued! When and where is this Lowell festival? Hopefully I can

attend... I'll be in Lowell this summer.

Thanks so much,

Emily L. in Palo Alto, CA

Queen79099@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:23:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Subject: Minneapolis Art Exhibit

In-Reply-To: <1996May29.074401.1036.148733@jackrabbit.uwyo.edu>

Does anyone know the dates that the Whitney's Beat show is supposed to be

in Minneapolis?

Gracias.

PGS

"To be great is to be misunderstood." -- Emerson

"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- Barth

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:15:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Ron Whitehead and Ginsberg

> Thanks to Howard Park for breath of fresh air open the windows & doors

> comments on whose BEAT! Fall '93 I asked Allen Ginsberg how he felt

> about Bob Dylan which prompted a long & fascinating response.

Dear Ron,

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to hear whatever bits and

pieces of the long and fascinating response you can reconstruct. You

might want to cross-post it to rec.music.dylan as I know the people there

would be interested as well. I do know that Ginsberg and Dylan saw each

other occasionally up to the mid-80's, since the name of Dylan's '85 or

'86 album "Empire Burlesque" arose from a conversation between the two.

For anyone interested in the relationship between the two poetmen Stephen

Scobie, author of _Alias: Bob Dylan_ is writing a book on the

Ginsberg\Dylan connection.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:27:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Last Word on No. 23

As the originator of the "Base 10" thread, I feel partially responsible

for what some people think to have been a waste of time. I never intended

it to get beyond the one post. I thought I was being clear that I was

being cheeky, throwing off a silly little rejoinder when I included the

Sartre quotation (which is from one of the short stories in his _The

Wall_) at the end of my post. This was snipped off in every response but

here it is again:

"I'm literary, I take Math to mortify myself."

J.P. Sartre

(Cheek, cheek)

I thought it was funny, but then again I'm in the Math Faculty doing a

double major in Computer Science and English Literature, so I guess I

find some odd things funny...

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:02:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject: _Wisdom's Maw: The Acid Novel_ (FYI?)

Was sent this over the weekend!! Any comments?

>Return-Path: <fahey@popalex1.linknet.net>

>Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 16:44:54 -0700

>From: Far Gone Books <fahey@popalex1.linknet.net>

>To: ddusseau@in.net

>Subject: _Wisdom's Maw: The Acid Novel_ (FYI?)

>X-Url: http://www.in.net/~ddusseau/beat.html

>X-UIDL: 833824108.000

>

>News Release -- For Immediate Distribution

>

>_Self-published Novel on CIA/LSD Axis a Success via Internet_

>

>After five years and 200+ rejection slips to show for his ontroversial

>manuscript _Wisdom's Maw: The Acid Novel _, which revolves around the

>CIA's LSD experiments of the 1950s and 60s, writer Todd Brendan Fahey

>had finally had enough. "It was either pack it in, forget I had ever

>written the book, and go sell cars somewhere--or sell something I

>believed in," Fahey said in a recent interview with _The Professional_,

>a tabloid based in the Acadiana bayou region of Louisiana. That thing

>which he believed in, more than anything else, was himself and his ability

>as a creative mind.

>

>A Ph.D. candidate in English at University of Southwestern Louisiana,

>Instructor of Creative Writing through its Adult Education division, freelance

>journalist, poet, and veteran psychedelic explorer (LSD-Ret.), Fahey did

>what many writers, including James Redfield (_The Celestine Prophecy_), are

>doing today: "Mortgage the farm, and hold your breath." Fahey borrowed $7,000

>from friends and credit cards, hired a printer and professional designer for

>the book's startling 4-color cover, set the type himself in Adobe PageMaker,

>and went to work on a guerilla marketing campaign that would, he hoped, make

>_Wisdom's Maw_ an underground cult hit.

>

>So far his instincts have been right on the money. A first-run of 2000 copies,

>in a quality trade paperback edition, is well on its way to selling out. The

>full-color posters he sent to every major counterculture magazine, and many

>"fringe" 'zines, have secured the promise of over a dozen reviews and feature

>articles. As well, catalogues and organizations such as northern California's

>MindBooks and The Island Group--both dedicated to keeping alive information on

>psychedelics--have seen a way to make money from Fahey's endeavor; the

>reseller's discount to catalogues and bookstores allow many to ride piggyback

>on Fahey's tireless shoulders.

>

>On August 2, the company he christened Far Gone Books will announce publication

>of _Wisdom's Maw: The Acid Novel_. Expanding a host of psychedelic myths, among

>them the legend of Ken Kesey and his band of Merry Pranksters, _Wisdom's Maw_

>asks this bedrock, pregnant question:

>

> "What if the Sixties were the result of a bizarre experiment in

> mind control and genetic manipulation perpetrated by the CIA?

> What if outlaw heroes of the counterculture like Jack Kerouac,

> Neal Cassady, and Timothy Leary were paid government agents

> seeking to subvert the American consciousness? What if the

> twisted path from Father Knows Best to Woodstock was carved out

> by top-level G-Men bent on creating a new world order... This is

> the raw material for Todd Brendan Fahey's incendiary novel

> _Wisdom's Maw_..."

> (Back Cover blurb) (Christopher Hunt in _Circuit Traces_)

>

>The CIA's mind-control experiments, known collectively as Project MK-ULTRA,

have

>persisted since their airing in 1973 in capturing the attention of the American

>public. Recent segments of "Unsolved Mysteries," "48-Hours," and "Eye-to-Eye

>with Connie Chung," have been devoted to the subject, as have feature-length

>articles earlier in this decade in _Newsweek_ and _U.S. News & World Report_.

>Two nonfiction works emergent in the 1980s--_Acid Dreams_, Bruce Shlain and

>Martin Lee (Grove 1985) and _Storming Heaven_, Jay Stevens (Harper 1987)--

>contributed importantly to public understanding of the experiments, which U.S.

>Senator Daniel Inouye termed "diabolical." In _Wisdom's Maw_, Fahey has

>synthesized available data on MK-ULTRA, toward his riveting thesis--that

>government Intelligence deliberately and purposefully fomented the rebellion

>of the Beat generation by use of its house "reprogramming" tool, LSD-25, thus

>"creating" The Sixties, in order to contain and neutralize a burgeoning youth

>movement.

>

>Fictionalized in _Wisdom's Maw_, among actual CIA doings:

>

> Operation Midnight Climax--a project run in the 1950s by late

> FBI narcotics agent George Hunter White, in cooperation with the

> CIA and the Army Chemical Corps, wherein unsuspecting male bar

> patrons in New York and San Francisco were given cocktails spiked

> with LSD, and thereafter taken by prostitutes to designated hotel

> rooms, their sexual acts filmed by U.S. intelligence agents from

> behind a two-way mirror.

>

> The Search for a so-called Manchurian Candidate--a drug which

> would function in potential spies and assassins as an hypnotic, a

> telepathine, and a truth serum. A drug known as BZ was to have

> served this purpose, but was never widely used by government

> intelligence.

>

> The Death of Frank Olson--a top-level Army biochemical warfare

> specialist who, in 1953, reportedly jumped to his death from New

> York's Statler Hotel the day after being unwittingly given LSD

> during a CIA symposium. Many have long suspected murder in the

> case, which again made news in late-1994, when sons of Dr. Olson

> pushed for the exhumation of and a second autopsy on the remains.

> The results were considered by forensics expert Dr. Kenneth Starr

> to be "suspicious, but inconclusive."

>

>Acclaimed author Ernest J. Gaines (_The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman_)

>attended the writing workshops at Stanford University with Ken Kesey in

1959-60,

>the years in which government Intelligence and youth rebellion were made twain

>at the Veterans Hospital at Menlo Park, where Kesey was introduced to LSD

by the

>CIA's Dr. Leo Hollister. Gaines writes of the era and of _Wisdom's Maw_:

>

> "I am thinking about those who think the mid-fifties to

> the mid-sixties were such glorious days--`when things were

> happening, man.' I can see this being a cult book for such a

> crowd...

> I was at Stanford in the late fifties, visited Perry Lane

> quite a few times, knew some of the people there, but still I was

> not part of that crowd. I was a complete outsider. I stood back

> and watched. And I got the hell out when I thought things were

> getting a little rough. Many of the people you mention in your

> book I saw from a distance. Some I met, got to know pretty well,

> but formed no close alliance. I was cut of a different cloth.

> Still am. I have been around a lot of drugs, but never once a

> user. I never had to inhale, because I never put the damned

> thing in my mouth, my nostrils, or my veins. I am sixty today,

> and still kicking. Many of those in your novel died much

> younger--or their talent most definitely did. I was aware of

> that effect on the body when I was at Stanford at age

> twenty-five. I knew I wanted to be around awhile, and joining

> those crazies was good chance I would not be. There were others

> in Wally's [Stegner] class who felt the same way I did. To watch

> the show, then go home and work.

> I don't know what to say about the CIA's involvement with

> all this drug stuff and with the killing of a president. This is

> all too much for me to comprehend. You have written a very

> controversial book here, and if it is published and read, you may

> have to answer some questions to some pretty big boys. I hope you

> have the backbone for it."

> (Back Cover blurb)

>

>The manuscript circulated widely among top New York houses from 1991 to 1995,

>drawing long looks from Grove/Atlantic and St. Martin's Press, but was

considered

>by many to be potentially libelous. Encouraged by heavy response to his

site on

>the World Wide Web, Fahey believes the book industry will soon do as the film

>industry has been doing since the late-80s. "Soderbergh's _sex lies &

videotape_

>showed that Hollywood wasn't necessary. The Coen brothers, as far as I'm

>concerned, have driven the nail into the skull of big-budget B-movies. I hope

>_Wisdom's Maw_ is said to have that kind of impact on the book industry."

>

>Having been recently selected as Books-A-Million and Barnes & Noble titles, and

>with a feature-length profile forthcoming in _National Lampoon_, _Wisdom's Maw_

>may be the catalyst whose time has come.

>

> * * *

>[Ordering Information]

>

>Official release is slated for August 2, but a limited number of "advance

>copies" has begun shipping. Price postpaid is $18.50 within the United States

>(cover price $16.95 + first-class postage). Far Gone Books offers quantity

>discounts of 30% for 4-9 copies and 40% for 10 or more. (Please do not make

>out check or money order on volume orders until appropriate freight cost has

>been ascertained).

>

>[Book specifications: 6x9 trade paperback; 224pp.; 60# acid-free (!) paper;

>Smyth-sewn binding; glossy, 4-color cover; back-cover blurbs by Ernest J.

Gaines

>and Christopher Hunt. ISBN 0-9651839-0-4]

>

>Checks/money orders should be made to:

>

>Todd Brendan Fahey

>[& sent to:]

>Far Gone Books

>P.O. Box 43745

>Lafayette, LA 70504-3745

>

>In appreciation of those early discoverers of _Wisdom's Maw_, Professor Fahey

>will sign all copies ordered through the Web.

>

>The _Wisdom's Maw_ Web site may be accessed with a good browser at:

>http://www2.linknet.net/fahey/Wisdom

>

>Todd Brendan Fahey can be contacted directly at: Fahey@popalex1.linknet.net

>

> ###

>

>

>

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:16:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Yossef Mendelssohn <citizenx@PHOENIX.NET>

Subject: Number 23

And, of course, there's Psalm 23 (King James version):

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green psatures: he leadeth me beside the

still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadth me in the paths of righteousness for

his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will

fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:

thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:

and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

-yossef

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:35:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat Lit Garage Sale

Hello all:

I suppose this will make someone upset, but all I'm doing is clearing out

some space on my bookshelf by getting rid of some duplicates of Beat lit I've

accumulated over the years. I'm not a book dealer and everything I list

should basicly be considered a "reader" copy - most are in decent shape

though, but virtually all have some wear. I think the prices I list are much

lower than most dealer catalogs I've seen or even in the bookstores. In the

interest of conserving bandwidth PLEASE respond to me directly

(Hpark4@aol.com) if you are interested in something DO NOT post to the whole

group.

EVERYTHING listed is a paperback. Add $1.00 per for postage

Jack Kerouac - Dharma Bums, PB, late printing $4.00

- Maggie Cassidy, 3rd PB printing - $7.00

- Mexico City Blues, 1990 - 1st Grove Weidenfeld PB

print - $8.00

Burroughs - Naked Lunch - late PB printing $7.00

Seymour Krim (editor) - The Beats, first PB printing, 1960, Gold Medal (its

in terrible shape, but good for reading, all the pages are there and the

cover is decent) - probably the best Beat anthology - $8.00

Ferlingetti - Coney Island of the Mind - 20th printing $4.00

Brautigan - Trout Fishing in America "1st Delta Printing", worn, $4.00

M. McClure - Star Poems, Grove, 3rd printing - $4.00

- September Blackberries, New Directions (not sure re:

printing) $5.00

Joyce Johnson - Minor Characters (excellent memior by Kerouac girlfriend,

very well done!), Washington Square Press, probably a late printing - $5.00

Gerald Nicosia - Memory Babe, Penguin edition 1986, probably the definitive

biography of Jack Kerouac - $8.00

Bruce Cook - The Beat Generation: The Tumultious '50's Movement and its

Impact on Today, written in 1971, reprinted by Quill in 1994, good general

survey, - $10.00

Bob Kaufman - The Ancient Rain, Poems 1956-1978, New Directions, probably a

later printing - $5.00

John Gruen - The New Bohemia, 1967 Grosset Edition, (many underlines, old

water stains, but very readible) "The amazing, sometimes shocking story of

the country's erotic, pace-setting area - NY's East Village" - many great

pictures - $8.00

Dylan Thomas - Quite Early One Morning, New Directions, 7th printing, $3.00

Jerry Rubin (a clown, not a Beat) - Do It (interesting photos, 60's Classic?)

- $6.00

Evergreen Review - This journal published more Beat lit than any other, many

short stories, poems and book exerpts first appeared in Evergreen:#3 (1957,

Corso, Camus, Snyder among others) Great photos featuring Jackson Pollock

very good condition - $12.00

#5 (1958, I believe this is the first printing of Kerouac's Essentials of

Spontanious Prose, Morin: The Case of James Dean, Dean photos, also Creeley,

Whalen) somewhat worn, but decent - $13.00

#22 (1962, "Introduction to Naked Lunch The Soft Machine Novia Express" (no

punctuation in title) listed as "work in progress" includes first appearence

of short Novia Express except, also Corso) - $11.00

#23 (1962, Corso, Bess "Henry Miller on Trial") - $6.00

#24 (1962, Whalen, Ferlingetti, Julian Beck, H. Miller) - $6.00

#74 (1970, large format, Kerouac "On the Road to Florida"/ w photos by Robert

Frank - I'm not sure if this has been printed elsewhere - it probably has but

I don't know where, David Amram "In Memory of Jack Kerouac, also Bukowski

"The Day We talked about James Thurber) - $14.00

#81 (1970, large format, great cover photo of Allen G and Peter Orlovsky ,

also Zappa, Woodstock report) - $6.00

#96 (1973, small PB format) - $4.00

New World Writing #4, terrible shape (Vidal, Foote) $2.00

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by me posting this, but it's not as if I'm

asking big $ for anything.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:28:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Dylan? A Beat? (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <960602123211_547618706@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Hmmm...what about Siddhartha Gotama? Was he beat?

seems he could've been, but I don't know enough to make a real definitive

stand on the issue...Whitman, as Kerouac and Ginsberg said, was the

"original beat"

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:38:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodney Lee Phillips <philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Lit Garage Sale

In-Reply-To: <960603223549_209924311@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "Howard Park"

at Jun 3, 96 10:35:50 pm

Howard--

Hell no, I'm not offended by this listing of Beat texts for sale; in fact, I'd

like to see more of this sort of thing on this list. Many of us are students

/ scholars of Beat Lit and these books can be hard to find at times. I'd

consider it a service to the list to see some used books for sale from time to

time.

Best,

Rod Phillips

> > Hello all:

> > I suppose this will make someone upset, but all I'm doing is clearing out

> some space on my bookshelf by getting rid of some duplicates of Beat lit I've

> accumulated over the years. I'm not a book dealer and everything I list

> should basicly be considered a "reader" copy - most are in decent shape

> though, but virtually all have some wear. I think the prices I list are much

> lower than most dealer catalogs I've seen or even in the bookstores. In the

> interest of conserving bandwidth PLEASE respond to me directly

> (Hpark4@aol.com) if you are interested in something DO NOT post to the whole

> group.

>

> EVERYTHING listed is a paperback. Add $1.00 per for postage

>

> Jack Kerouac - Dharma Bums, PB, late printing $4.00

> - Maggie Cassidy, 3rd PB printing - $7.00

> - Mexico City Blues, 1990 - 1st Grove Weidenfeld PB

> print - $8.00

>

> Burroughs - Naked Lunch - late PB printing $7.00

>

> Seymour Krim (editor) - The Beats, first PB printing, 1960, Gold Medal (its

> in terrible shape, but good for reading, all the pages are there and the

> cover is decent) - probably the best Beat anthology - $8.00

>

> Ferlingetti - Coney Island of the Mind - 20th printing $4.00

>

> Brautigan - Trout Fishing in America "1st Delta Printing", worn, $4.00

>

> M. McClure - Star Poems, Grove, 3rd printing - $4.00

> - September Blackberries, New Directions (not sure re:

> printing) $5.00

>

> Joyce Johnson - Minor Characters (excellent memior by Kerouac girlfriend,

> very well done!), Washington Square Press, probably a late printing - $5.00

>

> Gerald Nicosia - Memory Babe, Penguin edition 1986, probably the definitive

> biography of Jack Kerouac - $8.00

>

> Bruce Cook - The Beat Generation: The Tumultious '50's Movement and its

> Impact on Today, written in 1971, reprinted by Quill in 1994, good general

> survey, - $10.00

>

> Bob Kaufman - The Ancient Rain, Poems 1956-1978, New Directions, probably a

> later printing - $5.00

>

> John Gruen - The New Bohemia, 1967 Grosset Edition, (many underlines, old

> water stains, but very readible) "The amazing, sometimes shocking story of

> the country's erotic, pace-setting area - NY's East Village" - many great

> pictures - $8.00

>

> Dylan Thomas - Quite Early One Morning, New Directions, 7th printing, $3.00

>

> Jerry Rubin (a clown, not a Beat) - Do It (interesting photos, 60's Classic?)

> - $6.00

>

> Evergreen Review - This journal published more Beat lit than any other, many

> short stories, poems and book exerpts first appeared in Evergreen:#3 (1957,

> Corso, Camus, Snyder among others) Great photos featuring Jackson Pollock

> very good condition - $12.00

>

> #5 (1958, I believe this is the first printing of Kerouac's Essentials of

> Spontanious Prose, Morin: The Case of James Dean, Dean photos, also Creeley,

> Whalen) somewhat worn, but decent - $13.00

>

> #22 (1962, "Introduction to Naked Lunch The Soft Machine Novia Express" (no

> punctuation in title) listed as "work in progress" includes first appearence

> of short Novia Express except, also Corso) - $11.00

>

> #23 (1962, Corso, Bess "Henry Miller on Trial") - $6.00

>

> #24 (1962, Whalen, Ferlingetti, Julian Beck, H. Miller) - $6.00

>

> #74 (1970, large format, Kerouac "On the Road to Florida"/ w photos by Robert

> Frank - I'm not sure if this has been printed elsewhere - it probably has but

> I don't know where, David Amram "In Memory of Jack Kerouac, also Bukowski

> "The Day We talked about James Thurber) - $14.00

>

> #81 (1970, large format, great cover photo of Allen G and Peter Orlovsky ,

> also Zappa, Woodstock report) - $6.00

>

> #96 (1973, small PB format) - $4.00

>

> New World Writing #4, terrible shape (Vidal, Foote) $2.00

>

> I'm sorry if anyone is offended by me posting this, but it's not as if I'm

> asking big $ for anything.

>

> Howard Park

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:44:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Lit Garage Sale

Howard,

ditto.

I'd like to see more lists. If anyone has a good long list of semi-quality

stuff, send it.

Spread the word!!

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:05:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: the 1st Beats

Who were the very first Beats. Beats are victims but victims who are often

complicit in their victimization since they refuse to submit to bow down to

the status quo to whatever authority demands their allegiance & respect.

Their implicit and/or explicit defiance brings persecution. To survive the

pain the torment Beats must become strong victims in order to endure the

struggle of living in an oppressive environment. Many Beats, strong victims,

become warrior poets, writers, artists, musicians, rebel Druidhs, mystics,

Nabi who, by dwelling in the shadow, in the holy unholy realms of the

creative imagination, sublimate suffering, via passion & compassion, into

wisdom, knowledge & understanding which can point a way, for those who wish

to see to hear, out to alternative new worlds.

This wisdom is born out of necessity & desire.

Brain Man, from ON A MISSION TO PROCURE MOLASSES FOR THE U.S. ARMY

As time passes, it is likely that more and more mental phenomena of

extraordinary nature will appear in the most sensitive people; as a matter of

fact, there are no limits to the possible variety of these phenomena. On the

other hand, it may not be a case of new phenomena, only that one becomes more

sensitive to them. Knut Hamsun

In the Deconstructing faux corridors of Postmodernism (& Academia), with

faint sound of hysterical laughter in the distance, The Dead somberly splash

in their shallow sewers devouring and regurgitating themselves. The Bone

Man

Imagine Modernism as The Dark Ages and Postmodernism as our present Middle

Ages. Now imagine The Ocean of Consciousness as The Renaissance. The Bone

Man

abbreviated conversation between Allen Ginsberg and Ron Whitehead on subject

of Bob Dylan (Louisville, Kentucky October 2nd, 1992) to come later.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:23:43 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Minneapolis Art Exhibit

The Whitney Exhibit will be at the Walker Art Museum in Minneapolis from 2

June through September 15.

Mark Hemenway

Dharma beat Magazine

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:07:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: advertising and selling

I don't find advertising Beat realted book titles offensive in any way.

As listowner, however, I do have to worry about such activity setting a

precedent. Beat-l is supported on university owned facilities for

non-profit, educational purposes. I can see university computer center

officials objecting to advertising and sales activity. One compromise

might be to list titles that are available, I guess, and let the buyers

and sellers talk about prices on a one-to-one basis. Better yet, just

announce that materials are available for sale and that more information

can be obtained by contacting you at your e-mail address. I'm all in

favor of bringing people and good books together and hope the policy I'm

suggesting doesn't put too much of a damper on things.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:36:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: can you forward this to the list for me???

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: Sara.Ellefson@infores.com (Sara Ellefson)

To: Hpark4@aol.com

Date: 96-06-03 11:40:35 EDT

I've been trying to post a question to the list (coincidentally about

Bob Dylan, which, as I now see, has been a topic of conversation over

the weekend). I've been unable to post for a while and would

appreciate the favor.

I found a nice copy of Tarantula by Bob Dylan last week and have been

reading it, or trying to read it.

Here is what I was going to post:

I just got a copy of Tarantula by Bob Dylan and I was wondering if

anyone else on the list has read this book. I am having a hard time

understanding what it is about and I was hoping someone could point me

in the right direction.

I've given up all hope of comprehension with my first reading of it,

but I am captivated by the melody of the words (melody isn't the

correct word, but it does express what I want to say). The only

previous exposure I've had to Tarantula is from the Beat Reader, which

has a very brief excerpt.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:36:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Minneapolis Art Exhibit

Beat Culture and the New America Walker Art Center - June 2 - September 15.,

catch it if you can!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:36:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the 1st Beats

Re: Ron's comments (I have not figured how to cut & paste) How 'bout

distilling that as beat = subversive victim?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:00:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: BOB DYLAN AND TARANTULA

In response to a question a reporter asked about "Tarantula" (asked sometime

during the sixties) Dylan replied that it was a "...book of words." I read it

years ago and should probably give it another read. I usually chalk it up to

one of many Dylan tangents, like the time he tried to convince his manager to

have his album "Before the Flood" a TV/Mail Order LP, in the tradition of Slim

Whitman and Boxcar Willie, or the time he told the contractor building his

house in Malibu to make the living room large enough for him to ride through

on his horse.

Paul

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:30:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: advertising and selling

Those seem to be very reasonable guidelines proposed by our listserve

manager, and what a fine listserve it is. If I ever post anything in the

future it will be just a notice that I have some extra material and perhaps

mention a few titles. Sounds very commonsenseical. Hope I did'nt cause too

much trouble. There sure is a lot of interest.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:26:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christina Weber <SoMinerva@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: BOB DYLAN AND TARANTULA

>In response to a question a reporter asked about "Tarantula" (asked sometime

>during the sixties) Dylan replied that it was a "...book of words." I

>read it

>years ago and should probably give it another read. I usually chalk it up

to

>one of many Dylan tangents, like the time he tried to convince his manager

to

>have his album "Before the Flood" a TV/Mail Order LP, in the tradition of

>Slim

>Whitman and Boxcar Willie, or the time he told the contractor building his

>house in Malibu to make the living room large enough for him to ride through

>on his horse.

>

>Paul

>Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

I just finished reading it and it's a wonderful book, if you love words

and wordplay it is a great trip into where a lot of his lyrics came

from.... I liked it. But then, I am rather partial to Dylan.... His

tangents are what is so great about him....

Christina

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:16:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: advertising and selling

Beat Books For Sale? -

We've got thousands of titles in stock as well as recordings, posters,

TShirts, etc. Old books/new books/cheap books/very expensive

books/Kerouac/Burroughs/Ginsberg/Corso/di Prima/

Bukowski/Huncke/Signed/Unsigned/Anthologies/Beat Readers/

Beat Sounds/etc/etc.

To receive our latest list of books for sale, catalogues, etc.

send your name and address. We can't possibly catalogue every

book in stock, so if you have a want list, send it along for

quick, courteous service.

Celebrating our 15th year in business -

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

tel 508-485-8515

fax 508-229-0885

EMail Waterrow@al.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:00:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Lowell info, please

At 12:31 AM 6/3/96 -0400, you wrote:

>I am intrigued! When and where is this Lowell festival? Hopefully I can

>attend... I'll be in Lowell this summer.

> Thanks so much,

> Emily L. in Palo Alto, CA

> Queen79099@aol.com

>

>Join us in Jack Kerouac's hometown, during the season he loved best...

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates KEROUAC! Festival

3-6 October 1996 LOWELL, MA

"I was going home in October. Everybody goes home in October." On the Road

Millions of people around the world have read and experienced Jack Kerouac's

books. Come share that experience in his hometown at the 9th Annual Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.

Each October, Lowell, Massachusetts hosts Kerouac enthusiasts from around

the world for a weekend of poetry, performance, companionship and ....Kerouac.

WALK DR SAX STREETS WITH JACK KEROUAC....

Dr. Sax, Visions of Gerard, Maggie Cassidy, Vanity of Duluoz, The Town and

The City- The Lowell Jack Kerouac wrote about is still very much present.

The houses he lived in, the sites he wrote about, the streets he walked are

here. The Grotto, the Merrimack River, Moody Street Bridge, Textile Lunch,

the Pollard Library... Strike out on your own with your favorite Lowell

novel as a guide - or join one of many guided tours.

ENJOY A PERFORMANCE BY YOUR FAVORITE BEAT MUSICIAN OR POET...

Patti Smith, Allen Ginsberg, Michael McClure, Ray Manzarek, David Amram.

Gregory Corso and Herbert Huncke have performed at the festival.

LEARN ABOUT JACK KEROUAC AND THE BEATS ...

Attend a symposium...pick up a book at the small press book fair... or just

listen in on the conversations around you. Experience the rich cultural

heritage at the source of Kerouac's genius. Leading Kerouac and beat

scholars from around the country attend the festival.

SHARE THE BEAT EXPERIENCE...

Read your own work at an open microphone... visit the Kerouac Commemorative

at midnight... or just hang out at one of the late night get- togethers.

Spend a few days with people who share the enthusiasm, joyous spirit and

energy of Jack Kerouac.

THE KEROUAC COMMEMORATIVE

The Jack Kerouac Commemorative is located in downtown Lowell at the

intersection of Bridge and French Streets, near the former site of his

father's print shop. Selected Kerouac passages, etched in eight red granite

pillars, stand as a living monument to his art. The opening passages from

his five "Lowell novels," as well as passages from On the Road. Lonesome

Traveler, Book of Dreams and Mexico City Blues are inscribed on eight

triangular marble columns. The arrangement of the columns and the surface

stones form a kind of Buddhist-Christian mandala. The symmetrical cross and

diamond pattern of The Commemorative is a meditation on the complex

Buddhist and Roman Catholic foundations of much of Jack's writing.

THE JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Emerging and established writers are invited to submit works of fiction,

non-fiction or poetry for the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. The winner will

receive a $500 honorarium and an invitation to present the winning

manuscript at the October Festival. The Prize is sponsored by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc, The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Middlesex

Community College and the University of Massachusetts-Lowell. For

guidelines, send a SASE to The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, P.O. Box 8788,

Lowell, MA 01853.

LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC!, INC

The Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival is produced by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., a non-profit corporation. Created to build the

Jack Kerouac Commemorative, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is dedicated to

promoting the study and enjoyment of Jack Kerouac's art through the festival

and other projects.

Festival planning is a year round process, and we need your help. Join us at

our meetings, 7:00 PM, on the third Thursday of every month, on the second

floor of the Pollard Memorial Library, 401 Merrimack Street, Lowell, MA.

For more information, call 508-458-1721 or email: Mark Hemenway at

mhemenway@igc.apc.org. or Phil Chaput at philzi@tiac.net

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is an independent, volunteer organization

and we depend on your support to produce the festival. Send your

contributions to:

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.

P.O. Box 1111

Lowell, MA 01853.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:38:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: TEST - DO NOT READ

test

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:04:07 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Kerouac, Love and Death

Hello:

I'm struck by the frequency in Kerouac's work of a connection between his

relations with women and thoughts of death. For example, in OTR, after

leaving a women and her child after working with her picking fruit in

California, he refers to the "mournful" Susquehana river. Is it just my

imagination, or did Kerouac frequently connect his attraction to women with

thoughts of death? Could this be related to his Catholicism? Fitzgerald,

also a Catholic, seems to have made the same connection, to a lesser

extent.

George Morrone

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:47:07 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: BOB DYLAN AND TARANTULA

>>In response to a question a reporter asked about "Tarantula" (asked sometime

>>during the sixties) Dylan replied that it was a "...book of words." I

>>read it

>>years ago and should probably give it another read. I usually chalk it up

to

>>one of many Dylan tangents, like the time he tried to convince his manager

to

>>have his album "Before the Flood" a TV/Mail Order LP, in the tradition of

>>Slim

>>Whitman and Boxcar Willie, or the time he told the contractor building his

>>house in Malibu to make the living room large enough for him to ride through

>>on his horse.

>Paul

>Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

>I just finished reading it and it's a wonderful book, if you love words

>and wordplay it is a great trip into where a lot of his lyrics came

>from.... I liked it. But then, I am rather partial to Dylan.... His

>tangents are what is so great about him....

>Christina

Somewhere I read that TARANTULA was influenced by the writings of

William S. Burroughs. I haven't read TARANTULA as a whole yet, just

an excerpt of 5-6 pages in an anthology, and I'm wondering if there's anybody

who would connect TARANTULA and Burroughs' writing, too. Reasons for that ?

Jens

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:07:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Love & Death

George writes:

>I'm struck by the frequency in Kerouac's work of a connection between his

>relations with women and thoughts of death. For example, in OTR, after

>leaving a women and her child after working with her picking fruit in

>California, he refers to the "mournful" Susquehana river.

Could you point out other examples? This in itself doesn't specifically show

a connection between women and death. "Mournful" is a word used to convey

sorrow, and sorrow can be felt over any loss, not just death. Paradise just

left a woman that he loved - of course he felt grief and sorrow. Kerouac

would hardly be the first (or last) person to draw a parallel between the

grief felt when suffering the loss of a romantic relationship and the grief

felt over the death of a loved one.

-Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:07:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg's Birthday

Happy Belated 70th Birthday, AG.

(I assumed there'd be a dozen postings about this on Monday, but his birthday

seemed to roll right by without us acknowledging it!)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:14:23 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Birthday

>Happy Belated 70th Birthday, AG.

>(I assumed there'd be a dozen postings about this on Monday, but his birthday

>seemed to roll right by without us acknowledging it!)

Yeah, that was sad. I didn't dare to mention it, because I thought,

that this list is only for scholarly discussions about AG and all

the others. :-)

By the way: I'm German so I don't know the word "belated". Is it a

typing error, or what ?

Jens Moellenhoff

Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/

University of Munich, Germany

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

*** William S. Burroughs ***

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:15:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JLowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: ALLEN GINSBERG Autographed Books available--

Good Morning, all--

I've got the following signed Allen Ginsberg books I would like to sell.

I have at hand a good collection of Beat Generation & Black Mountain material

from which these titles are culled.

I don't want to brutally flog the list in violation of the "non-profit" nature

of the server <g> so anyone wishing prices could flash me email at

Hdnfalls@pond.com

Thanks--

1) Mind Breaths. City Lights, 1977. 1st edition in wrps. FN--Signed/inscribed

"AH" .

2) Planet News. City Lights. 1974 (3rd print) wrps. FN--Signed.

3) The Fall of America. City Lights, 1972 (black cover issue) wrps.

FN--Signed.

4) Empty Mirror. Corinth, 1970 (2nd print) wrps. FN--Signed .

5) The Gates of Wrath. Grey Fox, 1972 (2nd print) wrps. FN--Signed.

6) (w/William Burroughs) The Yage Letters. City Lights, 1975 (2nd print) wrps.

FN--Signed by Ginsberg.

7) Jane Kramer) Allen Ginsberg in America. Vintage, 1970. 1st print in wrps.

FN--Signed by Ginsberg.

Thanks--

Mark Lowe

Hdnfalls@pond.com

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:46:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Happy Birthday Gemini

Yes Happy Birthday to Allen Ginsberg & Bob Dylan & Robert Creeley & my mom &

my daughter & all the other Beautiful Mischievous Subversive Hardheaded

Determined Geminis round the world!

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:09:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: love and death

>I'm struck by the frequency in Kerouac's work of a connection between his

>relations with women and thoughts of death. For example, in OTR, after

>leaving a women and her child after working with her picking fruit in

>California, he refers to the "mournful" Susquehana river. Is it just my

>imagination, or did Kerouac frequently connect his attraction to women with

>thoughts of death? Could this be related to his Catholicism? Fitzgerald,

>also a Catholic, seems to have made the same connection, to a lesser

>extent.

I don't think it's just your imagination. Perhaps this tendency to

go immediately from thoughts of love to thoughts of death with women is more

than a topos as old as literature itself, but reflects Kerouac's consistent

dedication to the only one he ever loved w/o reservation--his mother. I

don't know if it could also be related to Catholicism; however, I know

Hemingway (not Fitzgerald) once said, "Every time you make love with a woman

you die a little bit."

After reading this comment, I immediately referred to the end of The

Subterraneans where Mardou dumps him. I couldn't find any clear evidence of

thoughts of death, though. If anything, the break-up of the relationship

spurred him into tha activity writing the book ("And write this book.").

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:54:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Glover, Albert" <AGLO@MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: love and death

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 10:09:27 EDT

For something explicit you might check out section 68 of

Desolation Angels (part of the burlesque scene) which ends:

And Sarina will die--

And I will die, and you will die, and we all will die,

and even the stars will fade out one after another in time.

One old strategy for defeating death -- no birth!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:46:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

The Kerouac Connection publishes essays on the Beats as well as poetry, book

and record reviews, historical information, news of current events, etc.

Last issue had critical essays from the NYU conference on Gregory Corso,

Allen Ginsberg, and Jack Kerouac as well as a Bukowski memorial section and

poetry by Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Harold Norse.

Subscriptions are $20 for 4 issues (foreign orders may send personal checks

in your nation's equivalent of $20--no cash please). Single issues can be

obtained for $5. If you wish to order both issues on the NYU Conference (#27

& 28), you can prepay $9 for both (or indicate that you want a 4 issue

subscription for $19). Checks made payable to The Kerouac Connection. The

magazine address is:

The Kerouac Connection

PO Box 462004

Escondido, CA 92046-2004

I hope to hear from you in the near future, and thank you for your interest.

Mitchell Smith, Editor

The Kerouac Connection

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:04:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: love and death

> I don't think it's just your imagination. Perhaps this tendency to

>go immediately from thoughts of love to thoughts of death with women is more

>than a topos as old as literature itself, but reflects Kerouac's consistent

>dedication to the only one he ever loved w/o reservation--his mother. I

>don't know if it could also be related to Catholicism; however, I know

>Hemingway (not Fitzgerald) once said, "Every time you make love with a woman

>you die a little bit."

> After reading this comment, I immediately referred to the end of The

>Subterraneans where Mardou dumps him. I couldn't find any clear evidence of

>thoughts of death, though. If anything, the break-up of the relationship

>spurred him into tha activity writing the book ("And write this book.").

>

>If what Hemingway said (above) was true Neal Cassady would have been dead

by 25. I'm sure your right that he loved his mother w/o reservation but

don't you think he truly loved Carolyn C. and did, if I must use the term

"learn to love" Stella. He also said he immediately fell in love with Edie

Parker after he watched her eat what was it like five sourkrout hotdogs.(YUM

I'm getting hungry).What a bizarre attraction. By the way off the topic I

heard Paul Krassner (publisher of The Realist) has a new book out. Anyone

picked it up yet? Reviews? Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:08:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: true love/sauerkraut

>If what Hemingway said (above) was true Neal Cassady would have been dead

>by 25. I'm sure your right that he loved his mother w/o reservation but

>don't you think he truly loved Carolyn C. and did, if I must use the term

>"learn to love" Stella. He also said he immediately fell in love with Edie

>Parker after he watched her eat what was it like five sourkrout hotdogs.

Sauerkraut dogs do sound good right now. Yeah, I'm sure Kerouac really did

love Carolyn and Stella (I feel uncomfortable speculating on such a thing).

On the other hand, whenever he had a fight with them, or broke off a

relationship with anyone else, he went right back home to Memere. All I

know (or think I know) about Kerouac is through his books and the main bios

(Nicosia, Clark, Charters). While his novels do not reveal it much, all the

bios portray him as a man inordinately attached to his mother. Especially

Charters.

Cassady died trudging along some railroad tracks in Mexic--and he

was only 42. Maybe there is something to Hemingway's remark...

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:56:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

I was just browsing through the Dennis McNally Beat/Kerouac bio, DESOLATE

ANGEL and came across some interesting comments on John Clellon Holmes...

McNally seems to suggest that Holmes' various articles on The Beat Generation

were basically an outsider looking in - that Holmes wasn't really a core member

of Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, et al. And then I was thumbing through Holmes'

book NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE and he almost seems to say as much... because he

had a family and all that, he couldn't go around the country like Kerouac and

Cassady... so, is Holmes really a Beat? or is McNally's book just reeking of

elitism....?

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:46:12 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Love & Death

>Reply to Liz Prato:

>

>>I'm struck by the frequency in Kerouac's work of a connection between his

>>relations with women and thoughts of death. For example, in OTR, after

>>leaving a women and her child after working with her picking fruit in

>>California, he refers to the "mournful" Susquehana river.

>

>Could you point out other examples?

It's a general impression I got from his writings; the first example I came

across (almost at random, looking for something to quote for you) was in

"The Dharma Bums," on page 28:

... couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Japhy and Alvah taking their

clothes off and throwing them every whichaway and I looked and Princess was

stark naked... "Here's what yabyum is, Smith" said Japhy ... "Take your

clothes off and join in, Smith!" ... I'd gone through an entire year of

celibacy based on my feeling that lust was the direct cause of birth which

was the direct cause of suffering and death... "Pretty girls make graves"

was my saying ...

Well, excuse me, under the circumstances that's NOT what I'd say; even if I

didn't want to participate.

>(The "mournful Susquehana" quote: gm) in itself doesn't specifically show

>a connection between women and death. "Mournful" is a word used to convey

>sorrow, and sorrow can be felt over any loss, not just death. Paradise just

>left a woman that he loved - of course he felt grief and sorrow. Kerouac

>would hardly be the first (or last) person to draw a parallel between the

>grief felt when suffering the loss of a romantic relationship and the grief

>felt over the death of a loved one.

In context, the connection seems pretty strong: I live in Harrisburg and

it's not a "cursed" city; just not very exciting apart from the occasional

nuclear mishap.

OTR p. 103:

It was the night of the Ghost of the Susquehanna. ... We walked seven miles

along the mournful Susquehana. It is a terrifying river. It has bushy

cliffs on both sides that lean like hairy ghosts over the unknown waters.

Sometimes from the railyards across the river rises a great red locomotive

flare that illuminates the horrid cliffs. ... comes the day of the

Laodiceans, when you know you are know you are wretched and miserable and

poor and blind and naked, and with the visage of a gruesome grieving ghost

you go shuddering through nightmare life.

I live two blocks from the river, and trust me, it's not mournful, or

terrifying; the ridges of the Appalachian mountains don't look like hairy

ghosts and are not horrid. I'm reminded of an Italian movie, "The Meadow,"

where the field changes from paradisical when the hero is in love to

infernal when he's not, but its the same meadow all along.

Did Kerouac feel that he had abandoned Terry and her son, and does that

account for the extravagant language? Was he likely to get drunk as a

result, to dull the pain? This is only way I can understand his choice of

words in the preceding quote. Maybe by "pretty girls make graves" he meant

they were a temptation to sin and thus spiritual death. In James Joyce's

"Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man," Stephen Dedalus' struggles with

his sexuality as he attempts to remain a good Catholic. There, the

connection between lust and spiritual death is made pretty explicit by the

priest who recounts for young Dedalus and his classmates the horrors of

hell while on a retreat.

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:55:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac, Love & Death

At 08:46 PM 6/5/96 -0600, you wrote:

>>Reply to Liz Prato:

>>

>>>I'm struck by the frequency in Kerouac's work of a connection between his

>>>relations with women and thoughts of death. For example, in OTR, after

>>>leaving a women and her child after working with her picking fruit in

>>>California, he refers to the "mournful" Susquehana river.

>>

>>Could you point out other examples?

>

>On The Road p.103:

>

>It was the night of the Ghost of the Susquehanna. ... We walked seven miles

>along the mournful Susquehana. It is a terrifying river. It has bushy

>cliffs on both sides that lean like hairy ghosts over the unknown waters.

>Sometimes from the railyards across the river rises a great red locomotive

>flare that illuminates the horrid cliffs. ... comes the day of the

>Laodiceans, when you know you are know you are wretched and miserable and

>poor and blind and naked, and with the visage of a gruesome grieving ghost

>>>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<<<<

This has Doctor Sax all over it...terrifying river...like hairy

ghosts over unknown waters...the river rises like a great red

locomotive...wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and with

the visage of a gruesome grieving ghost you go shuddering through nightmare

life.

I feel it's his childhood.Lowell. Doctor Sax lurking about. The

Merrimack again . The rage of the river as when the big Lowell flood wiped

out his father's print shop and more. The thoughts of that scary raging

river taking away. Taking away (loss or death) seems to bring him back. He

leaves this women and her child and then he goes back "You go shuddering

through nightmare life..." Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:56:38 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:56:04 EDT

I've always felt that the elitism was JCH's. Perhaps he saw himself, or

self-appointed himself, as the group's chronicler. He certainly didn't

seem to spend much time in the city, though.

I am drawing a blank as far as how he first got associated with Jack and

AG... though the story is told in one of his books.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:40:08 GMT2

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marais van den Berg <MARAIS@ENGL.UOVS.AC.ZA>

Organization: University of the Orange Free State

Subject: Re: ALLEN GINSBERG Autographed Books available--

How much for the "Yage Letters" Have you any idea what mail to South

Africa costs? I would really like to have this book. Let me know

please

Marais van den Berg

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:30:52 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:56:04 EST from

<J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

No question, Holmes is an important member of the Beat Generation. He

was part of the original New York group in and around Columbia in the

1940s. In fact, his essays in The New York Times Magazine (excerpted in

the 100th anniversary issue) and Esquire helped to define the

generation. His roman a clef, Go, was the first published work to give

voice the group, unless you credit the later chapeters of K's T&C.

Holmes NYC apartment was, for a brief period, a meeting place for

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Alan Harrington and others. But Holmes didn't remain

at the center very long -- moving to Old Saybrook after his marriage to

Shirley. Hewasn't traveling around the country with Neal and Allen and

Jack. He didn't really participate in the San Francisco Renaissance

that brought increased media attention to the Beats. Then again,

neither did Burroughs. Holmes and Kerouac remained friends until the

end of Jack's life as evidenced in their correspondence. Holmes was a

pall bearer at K's funeral. In his teaching at Arkansas, in the writing

he did until the end of his life, and in the generous support he gave

Beat scholars, Holmes helped keep the Beat flame alive throught the

1970s and 1980s.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:58:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

J.D. P. Lafrance wrote:

>

> I was just browsing through the Dennis McNally Beat/Kerouac bio, DESOLATE

> ANGEL and came across some interesting comments on John Clellon Holmes...

> McNally seems to suggest that Holmes' various articles on The Beat Generation

> were basically an outsider looking in - that Holmes wasn't really a core

member

> of Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs, et al. And then I was thumbing through

Holmes'

> book NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE and he almost seems to say as much... because he

> had a family and all that, he couldn't go around the country like Kerouac and

> Cassady... so, is Holmes really a Beat? or is McNally's book just reeking of

> elitism....?

>

> bfn,

> JDL

In an interview during the movie "What Happened to Kerouac?" J.C.Holmes

describes

himself as a kind of "migraine-headache intellectual". I consider his novel "Go"

to be

"virtually canonical" within the world of Beat lit. It's not a perfect, but it's

fun,

and the whole gang (mostly) is there. Holmes' descriptions and fictionalized

dialogue

of Neal Cassady (and Jack and Allen) fit squarely into Beat Myth.

Is he really a Beat? This question keeps coming up in regards to various artists

-

rather than complain about it I'll just play along. My vote is an unqualified

YES, WHY

NOT?. My reason is that I consider the term BEAT to be quite large. "(It)

contains

multitudes..." (WW).

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:14:10 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

Here's an odd bit of trivia regarding J.C.Holmes:

After "Go" was finished, Allen Ginsberg, whose character is perhaps the

most prominent character in the book, apart from the narrator, wrote in

a letter to Neal Cassady that Holmes' new book was "no good". Ginsberg

made this judgment after reading the book in manuscript.

Allen was a bit harsh, I would say, especially considering Holmes

sometimes refered to "Go" as his "book about Allen".

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:00:19 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

I recommend his book "Nothing to Declare". It's a collection of character

sketches of the memebers of the beat scene, famous and otherwise. It has a

fabulous ring of authenticity and truth to it.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:33:02 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

John W. Hasbrouck writes:

In an interview during the movie "What Happened to Kerouac?" J.C.Holmes

describes himself as a kind of "migraine-headache intellectual". I consider his

novel "Go" to be "virtually canonical" within the world of Beat lit. It's not a

perfect, but it's fun, and the whole gang (mostly) is there. Holmes'

descriptions and fictionalized dialogue of Neal Cassady (and Jack and Allen) fit

squarely into Beat Myth.

Is he really a Beat? This question keeps coming up in regards to various artists

- rather than complain about it I'll just play along. My vote is an unqualified

YES, WHY NOT?. My reason is that I consider the term BEAT to be quite large.

"(It) contains multitudes..." (WW).

I'm not doubting or complaining whether Holmes was a Beat or not (whatever the

nebulous term implies) I think the fact that he and Kerouac originated the term

is evidence enough... but I find it interesting that he really fell out of the

group just as it was getting momentum and after they migrated to San

Francisco... as it has been said before, this is probably due in part to the

fact that Holmes was now a family man and all but I wonder if he really felt a

part of the wild scene that Kerouac, Ginsberg, et al. belonged to?

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:28:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: John Clellon Holmes - Hip or Square?

John W. Hasbrouck writes:

Here's an odd bit of trivia regarding J.C.Holmes:

After "Go" was finished, Allen Ginsberg, whose character is perhaps the

most prominent character in the book, apart from the narrator, wrote in

a letter to Neal Cassady that Holmes' new book was "no good". Ginsberg

made this judgment after reading the book in manuscript.

Allen was a bit harsh, I would say, especially considering Holmes

sometimes refered to "Go" as his "book about Allen".

It's interesting that you mention Ginsberg's negative comments on "Go"... in

that McNally book, he mentions Kerouac's reaction to the book and he didn't like

it either, or rather he was jealous I think... but then later on if you listen

to the "Is There A Beat Generation?" track in "The Jack Kerouac Collection,"

Kerouac, as an aside, mentions "Go" as a "good book" so, perhaps his feelings

toward the book as they often did towards Holmes had changed...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:51:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: New York City June 17-19

Does anyone (Levi?) know if there is anything interesting in the way of

readings\literary events going on in New York on any of those days? I'm

doing a trade show there, first time in New York, would love to find out

if Corso or Ginsberg were, by some magical coincidence, reading those days.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:20:26 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: New York City June 17-19

THe NY Public Library, Berg Collection is Displaying manuscripts of 100

authors in honor of the Library's 100th anniversary. Part 2, now on

display, is the modern set, including a lot of Kerouac. Call 212-869-8089.

It's in the Berg Exhibition Room #318, 5th Ave and 42nd st. Tues and Wed

11AM-6PM, Thursday-Saturday 10AM-6PM. It's Free.

Mark Hemenway

Dharma beat

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:20:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: New York City June 17-19

Hello Neil! I believe Allen (& Diane di Prima) will be at Naropa.Give Peter

Hale a call at Allen's office & he can let you know for sure: 212/675/0288 or

FAX 212/675/1686. Or get your hands on copy of current Village Voice. All the

Best, Ron Whitehead 6/06/96

4:19PM RWhiteBone@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:04:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: AG's off. #

Hello! Ya know I can be a regular dumb fuck with big mouth which I utilize

often for inserting both feet. I was privately called down by list member (I

won't name) for giving out AG's off.# in reply to earlier inquiry bout

possible AG GC NYC reading in June. I have privately apologized for divulging

info I probably shouldn't have given out but I spoke before I analyzed (why

do I always see anal when I see that word) so I want to publicly apologize

(pluck out his eyes apologize). I stay in hot water for being too open too

honest doing too much. AG advised me once to not bite off more than I could

chew then I went right out & bit off so much I nearly choked to death. AG LF

DdP & others have helped me survive several misfortunes near death

experiences as result of sacrificing way too much to promote poetry. If you

ever see me wandering NYC or any other part of this land or another walking

at fast pace babbling rapidly to myself arms full of scrolls (Published in

Heaven Poetry Posters & other assorted mss) looking lost as hell & like I

haven't eaten for months do me a favor & kick my sorry ass in the river

(Susquehanna, Merrimack, Hudson, Otsego, Green, Rough, Mississippi, Ohio,

Danube etc) & drown me. Thanks! Ron Whitehead

P.S. if any one of you wants me to sign off service just please send

instructions which I no longer have & I'll be outtahere.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:31:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christa D. Neu" <NEUCD@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: AG's off. #

Perhaps this is entirely irrelevant, but I don't think Ron should sign off

the list for an over-zealous error...

Maybe people could simply respect Allen's privacy and not go stomping in

hordes to the phone with thousands of questions; not a big thing to ask at

all when you consider how willingly he has provided the world with his time,

it would seem unfair to demand more of him.

I don't need to go into all of the things Ginsberg has done to earn such

tremendous respect, I just want to suggest that perhaps we could show him

some respect in granting him some privacy; just because we saw a number does

not mean we need to use it.

While sitting under a tree in Naropa in '94, I watched groups of people

approach Gary Snyder who was sitting across the way; each person asked him

essentially the same question...finally he said one of the most draining

things about being well known was the demand everyone makes on your time...

That made quite an impact on me. The writers put their soul down on the

pages, in the letters, and in the interviews. It is all recorded for us to

discover. I then decided that I would always do my research and then if I

had an intelligent question, I may think about approaching the writer for

insight. In reading the work, in watching the performance; there you will

learn more than you could by standing in a line at a reception to have a

personal audience with your hero. And when you do have their attentions;

your chance to ask them anything in the world, don't waste that opportunity

in asking them for an ink scribble that merely signifies proof of contact.

It's a lost moment for all...

I would hope that people could learn to honor the Beat Legacy by working

towards forming the next mutation, as Ed Sanders suggested, contact the "best

minds" of your own generation, and move forward...

Information is more than generously provided by any number of

sources...that's a fundamental part of this list, so hopefully no one will

plague Allen's office with unnecessary requests, and then not much harm will

come from Ron's honest mistake.

My Unsolicted Two Cents,

Christa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 00:16:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ron (exasperated)!

In a message dated 96-06-07 00:01:33 EDT, Ron writes:

>P.S. if any one of you wants me to sign off service just please send

>instructions which I no longer have & I'll be outtahere.

>

>

Hey Ron, take it easy. We all make mistakes, and relatively speaking, this

wasn't a big one.

-Liz

P.S. Keep in mind, we might just like you for who YOU are, not just who you

know. :-)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:52:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

I'm very sorry to announce to the group. I just heard on the Boston morning

news at five AM that Jan Kerouac has passed away. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:01:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: coors commercial...

Hiyas!

I just saw a coors beer commercial where an ex-con is talking about the

rockies. He talks about a stream where a man can drink from a stream and

know himself...I am sure this was from On The Road, but I just sent my

copy away...can someone look it up for me and tell me if I'm correct?

eternally dreaming,

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:15:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ron (exasperated)!

Look at the bright side, at least you didn't give ot Allen's home phone!

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:18:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: AG's off. #

In-Reply-To: <960606210405_212121692@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "Ron

Whitehead" at Jun 6, 96 09:04:06 pm

> Hello! Ya know I can be a regular dumb fuck with big mouth which I utilize

> often for inserting both feet. I was privately called down by list member (I

...

> haven't eaten for months do me a favor & kick my sorry ass in the river

> (Susquehanna, Merrimack, Hudson, Otsego, Green, Rough, Mississippi, Ohio,

> Danube etc) & drown me. Thanks! Ron Whitehead

i thought i was too critical with myself....hey ron...would never think of

destroying a creative force such as yours...overzealous?...i think of all

who witness without absorbing....who take without giving....to me, not

saying anything at all is more destructive than a slip of the tongue....

and although i am not ginsberg, i think it would be easy for him to forgive

someone who sincerely meant no harm....

last night, ginsberg did a signing....i really loathe the crowds that

have dollar signs in their eyes....i stood on line, not to take, but to

give...a thank you...(he was with a local artist, eric drooker...they

collaborated on a new release...intense disturbing images with ginsberg's

analytical brilliance...)

i must admit that ginsberg was a gift for me after i started reading

kerouac....i never finished howl....this was the reason

for my witnessing this prostitution in a seemingly harmless

barnes and noble....(gaad, can't even write the name without

feeling animosity toward all monopolizing conglomerates)....and i could

feel his frustration with the whole business as well, but the reward for

drooker seemed to make up for it...

and lo, as i approached the newly annointed septogenarian (smirk)

i simply said, "i came here to give...not to take..."

and i handed him my soul the day i read howl....

instead of chastizing yourself for your error in judgement (which is

clearly an effort in futility when it comes to resolving anything) i am

sure you can find a way to give something back....and fuck anyone who

cannot accept that sometimes human beings use poor judgement....life goes on.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:24:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Forwarded mail.... -Forwarded (fwd)

FYI.....

Jack Kerouac's Daughter, Jan, Dies After Long Illness

With AP Photo

By RICHARD BENKE

Associated Press Writer

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- Jan Kerouac, the novelist daughter of

Beat Generation chronicler and cult hero Jack Kerouac, has died

after a long battle with kidney disease. She was 44.

Jan Kerouac died Wednesday evening at Albuquerque's Lovelace

Medical Center, a day after having her spleen removed, Kerouac

biographer Gerald Nicosia said Thursday.

She suffered kidney failure five years ago and had been on

dialysis ever since, administering self-dialysis as often as four

times a day, Nicosia said in San Francisco.

Born Feb. 16, 1952, in Albany, N.Y., Jan Kerouac wrote much the

same style as her father, with "very vivid sensory evocations,"

Nicosia said.

Her "Baby Driver," published in 1981, dealt with her childhood

in New York's lower East Side during the turbulent 1960s.

"Trainsong" (1988) was about her travels after that first book.

It's named after the community in Eugene, Ore., where her mother

lived.

She had been working on "Parrot Fever," about the 1991 death

of her mother, Joan Haverty, Kerouac's second wife. Nicosia said he

would like to help see it published posthumously.

"Her mother's death hit her really hard. She was her last real

close connection, somebody she could open up to, trust in," he

said.

Jan Kerouac, who met her father only twice -- once during a

paternity lawsuit filed by her mother when she was 10 -- spent her

final years promoting his legacy and battling for control of his

archives.

"Her main intent was to put it into a museum or a library and

preserve it forever. She was ill," Nicosia said, "but she was on

this quest to do something for her father's memory. Now she won't

get to see how it turns out."

In 1994, she sued relatives of Kerouac's last wife, Stella

Sampas, who inherited the notebooks, teletype rolls and parchment

scrolls on which Kerouac wrote "On the Road" and laid down the

first rumblings of post-war alienation that set the tone for the

so-called Beat Generation of the 1950s.

Her lawyer, Tom Brill of Newport Beach, Calif., said trial is

still tentatively set for September in St. Petersburg, Fla.

The plaintiffs contend the will of Kerouac's mother, Gabrielle

Kerouac, leaving her son's effects to Stella Sampas, was a forgery.

Had she died without a will, the estate would have gone to her two

grandchildren, Jan Kerouac and Paul Blake Jr., her daughter's son.

Nicosia said the absence of her father, who died of alcoholism

in 1969, "was a big hole in her life."

"Jan loved him very much and was haunted by not having him and

wanting to get to know him, trying to follow in his footsteps,"

Nicosia said.

He said Ms. Kerouac will be cremated, and hoped to be buried in

the Nashua, N.H., Kerouac family plot, where she had battled in

vain to have her father's remains moved from from Lowell, Mass.

She is survived only by two half-sisters, a half-brother and a

cousin. Twice divorced, she was unmarried at the time of her death

and had no children of her own, Nicosia said.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:46:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Autographs

On Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:31:08 -0400 "Christa D. Neu" <NEUCD@aol.com> wrote:

> And when you do have their attentions;

> your chance to ask them anything in the world, don't waste that opportunity

> in asking them for an ink scribble that merely signifies proof of contact.

> It's a lost moment for all...

and

On Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:18:09 -0400 Kristen VanRiper

<pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU> wrote:

> last night, ginsberg did a signing....i really loathe the crowds that

> have dollar signs in their eyes....i stood on line, not to take, but to

> give...a thank you...

I wonder at the hostility people have towards the practice of asking

authors to sign books. Whenever I have the chance to meet an author I

really admire I ask them to sign a book I own of their's. I have never,

nor will I ever sell any of these volumes. If the author means that much

to me that I would seek them out, or go somewhere to hear them read, I

always have something to say to them. I cannot help but have something to

say. As a writer who has been moved, to be at a loss for words would be

anathema, and for me, a spiritual death. To be unable to respond, to be

unable to give back something of what their work meant to me would be a

betrayal.

As for 'mere proof of contact' every time I open a book and see the

signature and inscription (hopefully a clever one, but sometimes it's so

hard to come up with something charmingly witty on the spot ;-) it is a

welcome and warm reminder of the time and words I have shared.

As a poet with a published chap-book I am always honoured when people ask

me to sign their copy. However small, it is an appreciation for the words

I have given them, and a request that I make the gift of my words personal.

I guess I've never had 2 hundred people lined up at a Barnes & Noble to

have my autograph without more than a, "I really love your work..."

I cannot help thinking of a poem by Mark Harrison from _Hero of the Play_

where he talks of the fan's quest for his hockey hero's autograph. He

builds it like a mystic phenomenon, a desire for the magical inscription

on the face of a card, ending with the simple phrase, detached from the

rest of the poem, emphasized with italics,

I love you, give me your name

(I have done Harrison an injustice, because I can't convey the power, the

building momentum of the poem towards those final lines, but I hope

wherever he is he can forgive me since his words affected me so deeply

that I tried, however inadequately, to convey my feelings on it.)

An autograph is a gift, which I am always grateful to receive, and always

honoured to give.

As for Ron's error, since I was the one who asked for the info, rest

assured that I will go through polite channels, and will not usurp the

information mistakenly given. You are lucky to be able to know these

people, and I would never do anything to jeopardize your relationship

with them.

I leave you with the oft-quoted line from Derrida:

"When I sign, I am already dead."

Jacques Derrida

Stay Warm,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:13:57 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Autographs

Regarding autographs...

Autograph-hound that I am, I cherish my paperback Portable Beat Reader which

currently

contains no less than 14 autographs of various Beat writers whose work is in the

book. I

love to sit and read it at my huge, L-shaped walnut desk which is, incidently,

signed

(on the inside of a drawer) by its previous owner, philosopher Mortimer J. Adler

(who is

NOT a beat).

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:16:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Claire Davison <Claire_Davison@FPKLON.CCMAIL.COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Jan Kerouac's death

What are the circumstances surrounding Jan Kerouac's death?

I didn't even know she was ill, she was only in her 40's wasn't she??

Claire

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:11:37 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: New York City June 17-19

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960606154821.6094A-100000@noether.math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Neil Hennessy" at Jun 6,

96 03:51:28 pm

> Does anyone (Levi?) know if there is anything interesting in the way of

> readings\literary events going on in New York on any of those days? I'm

Wow, I wish you asked this 2 days ago. Ginsberg read last nite at

Barnes & Noble in Union Square, and the night before Robert Creeley

read at St Mark's Church. But I don't know anything else. THere's

one real answer to this question -- get the Village Voice every

wednesday.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:33:19 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: beep <MULBPOLL@MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac's death

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:16:41 EDT from

<Claire_Davison@FPKLON.CCMAIL.COMPUSERVE.COM>

Hi fellow Beats.

I would also appreciate any info surrounding Jan Kerouac's apparent

sudden death. I am an editor for a university library literary

magazine and would like to do either a small article or filler for

the July/August issue.

Thanks,

beep

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:49:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jan Kerouac

Hello! Yes Jan Kerouac, a beautiful and brilliant person, is dead. Only a

handful of people realized, or chose to believe, the grave nature of her

illness(es). Some thought her problems were being glorified in order to aid

her lawsuit gainst the Kerouac Estate when in fact she really was deathly ill

& wished more than anything to reach an agreement with Sampases which would

insure that her father's work be kept together in one place where all could

share in viewing & studying. Jan's life was tragic. I hope more people will

become aware of her as a person thru her work. I will do what I can to help

in that area. A couple weeks ago I finished production of new Published in

Heaven Poster by Jan with incredible Chris Felver photo (which will also be

included in Chris' new Angels, Anarchists, & Gods to be released in

conjunction with NOrleans event) of Jan at her father's grave in Lowell, Mass

plus poem by her titled "Natasha."

Also, as part of New Orleans Event there will be a Jan Kerouac panel

discussion with Gerald Nicosia, Diane di Prima & others. Plus I am Guest

Editor of TRIBE magazine's August issue (release July 31st/August 1st) which

will focus on event cover to cover with features on Burroughs, Ferlinghetti,

di Prima, Ed Sanders, David Amram, Robert Creeley, Lee Ranaldo, plus many

others plus I am including a Tribute to Jan Kerouac with complete dedication

text by Gerald Nicosia & poem by Jan. In case you missed the event is called:

RANT for the literary renaissance & The Majic Bus present Voices Without

Restraint 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans

Contemporary Arts Center & The Howlin Wolf Club August 16-18. I'm in middle

of wrapping up booking & other preparations plus deadlines for TRIBE & will

be back in New Orleans round 18th for few days but I will post list of

performers & more event info in week or two.

May Jan Kerouac's sweet & precious soul be blessed forever! Ron Whitehead

6/06/96 12:48PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:33:59 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Autographs

I guess one has to experience the voracious rudeness of the crowds that

literally mob Allen Ginsburg whenever he sits down in a public place. We

are not talking about a line 200 people, rather a mob of 200 crowded

around pushing books in his face for signature. I think he is pretty

generous to give the time and attention he does.

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:35:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Autographs

In-Reply-To: <vines.47J8+4U4ilA@S1.DRC.COM>

I would have to agree. I've seen him read a couple of times, and

even when the crowd was calm and cooperative, the shear number of people

that show up can cause logistical problems. One reading was held in a

small space at a Waterstone's and the seating ran out immediately.

Getting Ginsburg to the mike and back was handled poorly, and while he

tried to accommodate the crowd, it was clear that he was upset. His

reading was still very exciting dispite the problems.

JoAnne

On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, mARK hEMENWAY wrote:

> I guess one has to experience the voracious rudeness of the crowds that

> literally mob Allen Ginsburg whenever he sits down in a public place. We

> are not talking about a line 200 people, rather a mob of 200 crowded

> around pushing books in his face for signature. I think he is pretty

> generous to give the time and attention he does.

>

> Mark Hemenway

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:28:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Autographs

Allan gave a reading up here in Marquette, Michigan, quite some time ago.

My buddy and I went to the reading, which had an early intermission to

allow the American Association of University Women representatives a chance

to sneak out the side door. We also were invited to the reception following

this.

The reception was at a friend's house, and Allen seemed pretty damned

comfortable talking and visiting. I pulled one of Arthur and Kit Knight's

first books, _The Beat Generation_, out of my bag, and when Allen saw it he

said, "Where the hell did you find that thing???"

I asked if he'd mind just signing hhis name, and he turned to a page that

showed the McDarrah photo of (according to the caption) "Allen, blowing a

kiss".

"Shit," he said, "I wasn't blowing a kiss."

"I was making a proposition to the photographer..."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:12:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Ron's boo boo

No need to list the list Ron! All of us have pressed that little send button a

time or two without thinking about what we were doing.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:12:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Hi!

I have noticed some animosity towards Barnes and Nobles on this list. I

think that is totally, completely, and utterly uncalled for. Barnes and

Nobles is a first rate chain of bookstores that carries the widest

variety of books availiable to most of the general public. True, the

Stanford Bookstore does have a wider selection (as do most college

bookstores, I assume) but when I can't run all the way down to Stanford,

Barnes and Nobles is the only chain that's ever heard of Allen Ginsberg.

As beat fans, we should be especially grateful that B&N has as many beat

books as they do. The local B. Dalton had nothing by Ginsberg and all of

four books by Kerouac. Barnes and Nobles has an entire row devoted to

poetry.

I know some people may feel animosity simply because Barnes and Nobles is

driving the smaller chains out of existence, but on the other hand, B&N

is large, well stocked, with knowledgable employees, and generates

a sufficient volume of sales to allow people to browse in the store for

several hours. No one there cares if you sit down and read an entire

book cover-to-cover - they know that you'll probably by something. No

obnoxious sales persons come and harass you. Aside from just Beat, B&N

has a well stocked fiction and non-fiction area that carries more than

the latest Tom Clancy or Anne Rice book.

So let's stop being so idealistic and acknowledge a good thing when we

see one.

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:47:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Jan Kerouac's death-Lowell Sun

Headlines in the Lowell Sun - Kerouac's daughter dies after operation

Died (age 44) following an operation to remove her spleen...went into

cardiac arrest Wednesday...had been in the hospital much of last month.

Nicosia said.

She had planed to travel to Lowell in October for a speaking engagement at

Middlesex community college. She was her father's daughter "in too many

ways" said Nicosia. "She tried to live his life. She never really knew him,

and that was the only way she could find him. It haunted her all her life,

since childhood when her mother would always talk about him. It left a hole

in her life."...she carried on a legal battle which will continue her lawyer

said yesterday....The suit contends that the will of Kerouac's mother

Gabriel was a forgery. Jan's lawyer Tom Brill told a wire service reporter

"we're going forward with the lawsuit " which is tentatively set for Sept.

in St. Petersburg Florida... She asked to be buried in he Kerouac plot in

Nashua N.H.. Deborah Bower of Albuquerque is handling the funeral

arrangements which are incomplete. said Nicosia... This goes on and on ...

"We are deeply saddened by this unexpected turn of events," said the Sampas

family in a statement. Further the AP wire had said that the Sampas family

would allow her request to be buried in Nashua.

Please don't shoot the messenger I'm just reporting what was said in the

Lowell Sun and on the AP news. The Lowell Sun article is pretty extensive so

if you want a copy here is their address Phil

Lowell Sun

15 Kearney Square

Lowell, MA 01852

508-458-7100

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:47:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J. Gardner" <jag@RAHUL.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Why is gratitude appropriate for what is a coldcut business decision on

B&N's part?

They do what they do solely for business reasons --in this case to be

considered a "cultured bookstore" -- to assume otherwise would be the

unrealistic thing.

I dont have a problem with that, but gratitude? I will never be grateful for

a culture turned upside down.

Regards

Jim Gardner

>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:12:00 -0700

>From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

>Subject: <No subject given>

>

>Hi!

>I have noticed some animosity towards Barnes and Nobles on this list. I

>think that is totally, completely, and utterly uncalled for. Barnes and

.....

>As beat fans, we should be especially grateful that B&N has as many beat

>books as they do.

Jonathan

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:03:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan Kerouac

As we ponder Jan's death, let us be thankful for her two fine books and her

dedication to the best parts of her father's great, but flawed legacy.

I don't know if ONLY the good die young, but it sure seems like it sometimes.

To what extent do people feel that deep, searing pain seems to be a

pre-requsite for great literature?

I hope Jan was happier in her later years. Did the Kerouac groupies (I say

that non-perjoritively) bring Jan any joy or was she just all the more

tortured given the recent controversies?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:03:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Autographs

I like to get my books signed. The main thing is just to be cool about it.

Don't shove the stuff in Allen's face (or whomever)...wait until the crowd

dies down a bit...have something interesting to say.

If people are cool, my experience that the beats (for that matter, other

authors, etc) will enjoy signing books. And if they just get tired and

refuse, no big deal.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:30:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jan K.

It's times like this that I wish I didn't have my digest function on as I

would imagine there are many messages out there about Jan Kerouac's death at

such a tragically young age. The picture that was in the NYTimes obit would

indicate she was an extraordinarily beautiful woman. Did she succumb to the

same disease that killed her father? I have been lurking of late and working

on my own writing, but I noticed that there was a thread on Kerouac, women

and death -- ironic that this should be taking place at this time.

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:32:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Jan Kerouac memorial service

I found this posted on the rec.arts.books.marketplace news group of all

places. I don't know where they got it from but I assume it's accurate. Phil

Jan Kerouac, daughter of Jack Kerouac passed away June 6. A memorial service

will be held at Prince of Peace Catholic Church, Albuquerque, N.M. 87122 at 6

pm, June 10.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:58:37 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: BELATED :-)) THANKS

Hi you all,

Thank you so much for these lots of mails concerning the word

"BELATED".

I was just worrying if this mailing list is the right place for asking

silly questions about the English language. So I feel like saying

sorry to all those who really want to kill me because of this mistake

of mine.

I hope this will be the last mail concerning this topic. Let's move on

to some Beat-related topics again.

Cosmopolitan Greetings,

Jens

Jens Moellenhoff

Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

University of Munich, Germany

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

*** William S. Burroughs ***

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:15:50 GMT

Reply-To: steven.dean@vuw.ac.nz

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve Dean <steven.dean@VUW.AC.NZ>

Subject: Evergreen Review (Vol 2 No 8 Spring 1959)

all

was just sending this off to a pal and not knowing if its been

anthologised or is on a webpage - thought i'd send a copy here - its a

jk piece from the Evergreen Review Magazine (Vol 2 No 8 Spring 1959)

page 57 <apologies if you all know it>

steved

<>?<>/<>?<>?<>/<>?<>/<>?<>/<>?<>/<>?<>/<>?

JACK KEROUAC

Belief & Technique for Modern Prose

List of Essentials

1. Scribbled secret notebooks, and wild typewritten pages, for yr

own joy

2. Submissive to everything, open, listening

3. Try never get drunk outside yr own house

4. Be in love with yr life

5. Something that you feel will find its own form

6. Be crazy dumbsaint of the mind

7. Blow as deep as you want to blow

8. write what you want bottomless from bottom of the mind

9. The unspeakable visions of the individual

10. No time for poetry but exactly what is

11. Visionary tics shivering in the chest

12. In tranced fixation dreaming upon object before you

13. Remove literary, grammatical and syntactical inhibition

14. Like Proust be an old teahead of time

15. Telling the true story of the world in interior monolog

16. The jewel centre of interest is the eye within the eye

17. Write in recollection and amazement for yourself

18. Work from pithy middle eye out, swimming in language sea

19. Accept loss forever

20. Believe in the holy contour of life

21. Struggle to sketch the flow that already exists intact in mind

22. Don't think of words when you stop but to see picture better

23. Keep track of everyday the date emblazoned in yr morning

24. No fear or shame in the dignity of yr experience, language &

knowledge

25. Write for the world to read and see yr exact pictures of it

26. Bookmovie is the movie in words, the visual American form

27. In Praise of Character in the Bleak inhuman Loneliness

28. Composing wild, undisciplined, pure, coming in from under,

crazier the better

29. You're a Genius all the time

30. Writer-Director of Earthly movies Sponsored & Angeled in

Heaven

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:54:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Lowell Sun News-KEROUAC ARCHIVES "CRIPPLED"

Lowell Sun headlines- JACK KEROUAC TAPES TIED UP IN LEGAL LIMBO. It appears

that the taped interviews that Gerry Nicosia sold to the University of

Lowell which is a historic collection of 503 entries (interviews, many of

the people are deceased), has been "crippled". supposedly because Nicosia

did not get WRITTEN permission from the people he interviewed. Gerry is

saying he had permission but not in writing. It talks about a serious

researcher who was denied permission and told that to listen to the tapes

she needed written permission from the subjects of the interview or if they

are deceased then from that persons estate. It also talks about the fact

that the tapes are old and that many have not been dubbed or transcribed.

Nicosia is talking about a lawsuit for breach of contract as he thought they

were going to be for public use. This is almost a full page article and

quite extensive. To quote Nicosia at the end of the article. " It was part

of the negotiations that they would make it available to the public. That

was part of the deal. And the other thing is the possibility of fraud. They

assured me this would be made available. I was deceived."

My opinion is that this sucks. This is a historical collection that will

never again be duplicated and to start "pulling" interviews is to destroy a

part of history. For example even if a person being interviewed agreed THEN

to do the interview and wanted it archived for historical reasons or

posterity, now the relatives can stop it from being used. Think of the

problems this could cause. What if a person had four relatives and two want

it used and two don't? Then what? To make a person get permission for every

interview she/he wants to listen to can make it impossible for doing

research. This is not good. This is almost a full page article in the Sun.

If you want to read the whole article. Here is the address of the paper it

is in. Mondays paper 6-10-96. Phil

Lowell Sun

15 Kearney Square

Lowell, MA 01852

508-458-7100

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:23:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960608174742.006ba1f0@rahul.net>

We should be grateful that one bookstore actually stocks beat

literature. Regardless of why they do it, they do it, and we should be

thankful that they do it...

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, J. Gardner wrote:

> Why is gratitude appropriate for what is a coldcut business decision on

> B&N's part?

>

> They do what they do solely for business reasons --in this case to be

> considered a "cultured bookstore" -- to assume otherwise would be the

> unrealistic thing.

>

> I dont have a problem with that, but gratitude? I will never be grateful for

> a culture turned upside down.

>

> Regards

>

> Jim Gardner

>

> >Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:12:00 -0700

> >From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

> >Subject: <No subject given>

> >

> >Hi!

> >I have noticed some animosity towards Barnes and Nobles on this list. I

> >think that is totally, completely, and utterly uncalled for. Barnes and

> .....

> >As beat fans, we should be especially grateful that B&N has as many beat

> >books as they do.

>

>

> Jonathan

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jan & Gerry vs Kerouac Estate (SampasFamily)

Thanks to Phil for sharing oh so important Nicosia Lowell Beat archives

update with us.

I had long talk with Gerry after Jan's death. We talked about Jan & various

projects to pay tribute to her but we also discussed the Lowell Archives

issue at length. According to Gerry the Sampases used power to shut down the

Archives all because of lawsuit between Jan & Kerouac Estate. As Phil

mentions historically valuable oral interviews with all the key players must

be dubbed from old to new tapes or they will be lost forever not to mention

that now no one has access to any of the material. There is much more to be

told here. I've seen the lawsuit destroy friendships & make people act like

cowards. Many have been afraid to defend Jan for fear of repercussions from

The Estate. Hatefilled language and name calling ("psychopath" etc) abounds.

Just like in most divorces if you only listen to one side you may come to

believe the other person is a monster when in fact there's usually right &

wrong good & bad intentions & behavior on both sides. Differences must be

reconciled. There is so much Kerouac, & other related, material imprisoned

that must be set free. We (you & I) must speak out (without the fear of being

blackballed) when we can & plead with people like John Sampas to work for

reconciliation. Pressure must be applied somewhere otherwise materials will

be lost or tied up forever. Ron Whitehead 6/10/96 10PM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:08:54 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jan & Gerry vs Kerouac Estate (SampasFamily)

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:04 EDT

It does seem hard to believe, though, that Nicosia didn't consider

getting _wriitten_ approval from his interviewees. Researchers ought to

know the value of something like that!

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:06:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: written approval for interviews

Jim Stedman makes an excellent point about "Researchers OUGHT to know the

value of something like that." I haven't studied Gerald Nicosia's life or

personality enough to know how much he considers himself to be an official

Researcher. My guess (guesses are like opinions & assholes. we all have them.

they are what level the playing field. the great equalizers) is that he is

part Researcher/Academic (being one of the leading scholars on Beats & other

fields. he's completing 1,400 page book on Vietnam Vets now) & part Rebel.

It's easy to second guess. Hindsight is 20/20 etc. When you're in the heat of

battle, in the heart of the sacred flame, often your intuition is your guide.

Analysis is secondary to getting the job done, to creating the work of art.

You walk the tightrope without a safety net but you're willing to take the

risks (holy/unholy risks) because you are tapped into, connected with a force

an energy that is more than who what you are.

There's nothing I despise more than all the legal contracting formal

documentation that we've all been led to believe must be done in order for

anything worthwhile to be accomplished. Having published nearly 200 titles by

many known authors & produced over 300 events involving many of the same

people plus many others I have been forced to resort to some kind of legal

contract/documentation maybe five times. I have done it all via word of mouth

& handwritten letter agreement. "Will you do it? What are the terms? Ok.

Let's go." Handshake. Thank yous. High fives. Kisses. Hugs. Much good will.

Yes it's dangerous to say fuck the legal system. Yes today it's a risk.

Somebody may sue my ass any time & if I'm dealing with someone who doesn't

trust people & is all caught up in legalities & contracts (music industry is

worst of all) then I'll let my attorney handle it (& I must say I avoid

agents & managers if at all possible as, in my experience, 75-90% of time

they are interested in one thing = money = & can be the rudest assholes from

hell). I am interested in creating energy that invites the creative

imagination back in to people's lives. The creative imagination saves lives

in many different ways & one of those is that it allows people to remember

that there are alternative paths to follow in this world, not just the one

prescribed by the system.

There is an implicit & explicit understanding when you interview someone (I'm

interviewing William S. Burroughs this week) that yes both parties know that

the interview will be made accessible to public sooner or later in one form

or another. Why else would you be doing the interview in the first place. If

there was another reason it wouldn't be an interview it would merely be a

friendly conversation. To ask for written permission is entering legal zone

that friends, or people on friendly terms, don't consider or just don't want

to fuck with. I'm sure Gerry Nicosia, even if it crossed his mind, felt

certain that he had all the permission he'd ever need by the simple fact that

the interviewees agreed to & did the interview.

Our society has become so legalistic it's nearly unbearable. I constantly

find myself desiring to move to remote island off coast of Ireland or Greece.

Just say Fuck it All. But for me it's getting late. I have too much I feel

urgent need to do. I have a mission. I am engaged & looks like I will be

until I exit this plane.

None of this is meant to attack Jim Stedman. I'm merely offering my point of

view, my opinion, showing my ass to the world. Ron Whitehead 6/11/96 9:05AM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:42:58 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SLAVEN BILIC <NN279@LAMP.AC.UK>

Subject: Spoken word

Curious thing about the interviews, I know that in this country at least

(England & Wales), the copyright rests with the interviewer not the

interviewee.In practice this has meant an abundance of interviews of music and

literary

figures being released on vinyl and CD, often of poor quality and often of

dubious merit. Whether this is better or not is open to debate of course...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:07:56 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Lowell Sun News-KEROUAC ARCHIVES "CRIPPLED"

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:54:32 -0400 from <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

This should be a lesson to all of us who do interviews in our research.

Always get the subject to sign a standard release form and better yet,

get the permission on the tape itself. It seems the best thing Gerry

can do at the moment is track down as many subjects as he can and get

their permission.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:18:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Jan & Gerry vs Kerouac Estate (SampasFamily)

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:08:54 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

I sure hope Gerry has copies of all the tapes he gave to the Lowell library. A

t least that way we know one copy can be preserved.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:17:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: aHHHHHHHHHH....

TRYING TO SEE IF THISLL FARGING WARK DAMMIT

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:16:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Jan & Gerry vs Kerouac Estate (SampasFamily)

At 06:08 AM 6/11/96 EDT, you wrote:

>It does seem hard to believe, though, that Nicosia didn't consider

>getting _wriitten_ approval from his interviewees. Researchers ought to

>know the value of something like that!

>Jim Stedman

>

> Hi Jim. Good point but I think that the average person would be quite

intimidated by a interviewer asking them to sign a written permission form.

The thinking would be maybe they might be libel for something they said. I

have heard and was there for some of these interviews and Gerry was quite

open about the fact that he was doing research and was writing a book and

the tape recorder was right on the table (or bar). I have even heard some of

the people say "turn that off for a minute" and then tell a story "off the

record". Obviously if you are writing a book and you tell the people being

interviewed about it you would think they would assume the public will

eventually hear what was said. Another point, if I go and take Ann Charters

new book of letters out of the library and publish some letters from it on

my own, the library wouldn't be sued, I would. My God every library in the

world would be at risk if that was the case. What's the difference here? I

don't know it just seems a shame to me that even one of these interviews be

lost.

I don't want to sound like I'm taking sides here in the Sampas/Nicosia

battle because I'm not. I just think it's a shame that this historical

archive is not accessible to the public or even to serious researchers of

the Kerouac legacy. I hope we can somehow get it accessible again. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:46:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

At 10:18 AM 6/11/96 EDT, you wrote:

>I sure hope Gerry has copies of all the tapes he gave to the Lowell

library. At least that way we know one copy can be preserved.

He doesn't have them that is the sad part. He sold them to the

University with the intention of haveing them archived and preserved for

scholarly use. Now who knows what will happen. It sounds like they have

already "pulled" some of them and this alone is an outrage. These are State

property owned by all the taxpayers in Mass. We own them. I want to read

more before I go on about this. I'll get back to you all later. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:04:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960612024613.00695f4c@pop.tiac.net>

Hmm...I forgot the name of this list. Was it legal babble and petty

griping about copyright laws-l? Was it lawyer-l? Nope...it was

BEAT-L ...

can't we talk about something Beat? As opposed to boring legal docs?

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:16:19 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

1. There are laws, rules and procedures for doing oral

history/interviews.These are not new or secret. Whether right or wrong,

these were created to protect the interviewee from unwanted invasion of

privacy and rip-off of intellectual property. Responsible researchers

understand, and work within or at least around these rules.

2. Having been more involved in this thing than I ever cared or want to

be, I encourage everyone to seek out "the facts" rather than accept

statements and rumors at face value. I have found the facts often at

variance with the things being said in published articles and being passed

"around the circuit."

3. I'm with Jonathan. To liberally paraphrase Allen Ginsberg at the last

NYU Conference "Let's talk about poetry, not lawsuits."

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:46:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:16:19 EDT from

<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Mark is right. Having studied Oral History at Columbia in the 1970s, I

can confirm that stress was always placed on obtaining written and

verbal permission (onthe tape) to release the interview. Most libraries

and archives follow strict rules to protect the privacy of the subjects

interviewd. (Of course, they really are protecting themselves from

legal suits.) While I too would rather talk about literature than legal

squabbles, I share Phil's concern that these interviews be made

available to the public. It seems the best thing to do now is to begin

trying to obtain releases from those interviewees who are still with us.

Sincethe Lowell Public Library has assumed ownership of the interviews,

it would seemto me that they are in the best position to pursue these

releases. I'm sure Gerry would be willing to cooperate in any way

possible. However, there's another issue here: why is it that the

library isn't re-copying the tapes to preserve the material? Is there a

feeling that these tapes will never be made public so why keep them?

Does the library feel that the material isn't worthwhile?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:53:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: poetry vs lawsuits

Hello! I agree somewhat with what Mark Hemenway & Allen Ginsberg have to say

about talking about poetry instead of lawsuits. ButThe powers that be would

like nothing better than our silence especially on subjects that might

tarnish their image or even worse remove change from their pockets. I think

this is ideal venue to discuss a lawsuit that directly influences everything

we're about. Yes there is such a thing as shooting a dead horse & rehashing

the same old shit gets old quick but many people (including folks on this

list) don't even know what's been going on with Kerouac material so part of

this Kerouac Beat related lawsuit discussion is educational. I agree: the

important & interesting issue by far is poetry. It is unfortunate & even

disgusting to me when poetry enters the hellish realms of The Law but just

like William Blake marching through the streets of London protesting the

treatment of children (no labor laws) I refuse to stand idly by & watch (like

so many did as Jews were carted to the ovens) when wrongs are being done in

the interest of & to protect the ruling elite (whatever area of life).

And one other point: Just because there are "laws, rules and

procedures...Responsible researchers understand..." doesn't mean that they

are right or valid or always, generally, or even occasionally used by

Responsible researchers. And what who is a responsible researcher? The one

designated by the law? by Academia? the one who supports & protects the

established canon? If ever anyone any group chose to do things differently,

to find a new way, The Beats did. The real question here is not did Nicosia

abide by the letter of the law but did the people he did interviews with

think it was okay. Could he have ripped off 500 interviewees? Why are the

archives locked up? What is the Kerouac estate's motivation?

Voices Without Restraint! Ron Whitehead 6/12/96 12:51PM

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:12:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jan & Gerry vs Kerouac Estate (SampasFamily)

Here's an ironic fact:

About 40 years ago, one major obstacle remained to FINALLY publishing a book

called On The Road - the lawyers for the publisher (I can't remember which

publisher it was just now) held up the publication for many months, even

years, because of the obvious real life characters in the book (even though

the names were changed) and the various illegal activities depicted. Jack

Kerouac's letters from the time cry with pain and frustration about the legal

wrangeling that held up the book for so long.

After reading the letters I'm convinced that the long period Kerouac spent

waiting to be published, living off the charity of friends and family,

contributed much to his eventual breakdown. He never found an even keel, it

was boom or bust, never in between. And for the many years between

publishing The Town and the City and On the Road, it was bust for Jack

Kerouac, he was beat. Creative, Yes - but beat indeed.

40 years later, recreational use of relitively harmless substances such as

marijuana remain illegal (drug use was undoubetedly one thing that made the

lawyers so nervious back in 1956). And 40 years later, obtaining

"permissions" still holds up ligitimate, historical research. Many common

sexual practices also remain illegal. Drinking ones self to death is still

common (no legal problem there!)

"The more things change, the more they remain the same." (who said that

anyway? - I don't have permission to use the quote!).

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:00:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: poetry vs lawsuits

The rub is certainly expressed best here in Ron's final two questions...

most importantly the one that asks the estate's motivation. Phil is pretty

close to the whole scene and as it unfolds, he will no doubt be keeping

the list up to date.

The issues of what is to be gained and what could very well be lost are

certainly ones relevant to this list, eh?

Perhaps the time is now to establish a chaotic order or strategy. I doubt

whether any of the powers respresented in this legal battle are present in

this forum... so I wonder how it is that the 200-plus-change folks here

might be able to express what opinion they might have regarding the

preservation/access of GN's interview tapes to those people. Are there

names? Are there adresses? is this skirmish getting much Lowell radio time?

Is it present in The Sun's editorial pages, or letters?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:02:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: poetry & lawsuits

And besides that a few other lawsuits related specifically to poetry & prose

come to mind. Remember James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Henry Miller, Allen

Ginsberg to name a few worth discussing in relation to poetry to literature.

If it wasn't for Kenneth Rexroth going into the courts and telling the judge

& jury & the world the historical significance of HOWL(thanks T.K.), not to

mention Lawrence Ferlinghetti publishing the book, where would book & author

be today? Same place? Maybe. Maybe not.

Who's the early feminist who said regardless of the consequences she refused

to become more conservative (play it safe) with age. Regardless of what

heights we climb we need to always remember where we started, how we got to

where we are, & who helped along the way.

And if by chance we started out on top & fell from grace at some point hey

maybe it hurt(s) like hell but consider it an opportunity to see what life is

like for most everybody else on this planet. If you were born with silver

spoon & haven't been introduced to compassion I hope you're fortunate enough

to meet her along your way.

Yes let's discuss poetry. Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:59:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: poetry

In a message dated 96-06-12 15:04:33 EDT,Ron W. wrote:

>Yes let's discuss poetry.

I just read charming old Ginsberg poem - umm, should specify poem old

(1958-newer than I am) , not A.G. - anyway, it's "Ignu".

>ignu knows nothing of the world

>a great ignoramus....

>ignu has knowledge of the angel indeed ignu is angel in comical form

Julie (aspiring ignulie)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 19:53:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

At 10:04 PM 6/11/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Hmm...I forgot the name of this list. Was it legal babble and petty

>griping about copyright laws-l? Was it lawyer-l? Nope...it was

>BEAT-L ...

>

>can't we talk about something Beat? As opposed to boring legal docs?

>

>jonathan

>

>=========================

>Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

>

> "Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

> of life."

>Hmm...I forgot the name of this list. Was it

crying-about-what-people-talk-about-on-the-list-when-they-are-talking-about-

something-important-L Gimme a break. I thought Kerouac was a BEAT and the

beat-l list is for talking about the beats. Instead of crying and doing the

list administrator's job. Who by the way does a great job without your

input. Why don't you write about something beat instead of a silly post like

this. Phil

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:16:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Kerouac...Beat?

It don't start w/Jack, folks--

It has always been here to stumble into. <g>

Of course we already knew that--

In the words of Mammy Yokum, "Ah hez spoken!"

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:36:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Zen and the Beats

Well, hi, everyone:

I'm kind of new to the group, and have been reading the lastest posts

about law, poetry, etc., I find it interesting. But, I was wondering if

we couldn't start a new sting regarding the Beats and Zen. Perhaps, this

has been discussed before I was in the group, but I'd like to hear some

input about it. (If it's old hat, someone e-mail and tell me!)

I first "found" Zen while reading Salinger, a zillion years ago. I later

picked up on the Beats and their writings, and found it even more

intriging. Today, I still love it. Certainly, the Beats were significantly

into Zen or buddhism, and greatly influenced by it.

Any comments?

Thanks,

Chris

forza@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 03:03:40 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 12, 1996 20:36:54, 'CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>' wrote:

>I first "found" Zen while reading Salinger, a zillion years ago. I later

>picked up on the Beats and their writings, and found it even more

>intriging. Today, I still love it. Certainly, the Beats were significantly

>into Zen or buddhism, and greatly influenced by it.

>

>Any comments?

>

>Thanks,

>Chris

>forza@concentric.net

Zen koan: Where do the ducks in Central Park go in the wintertime?

Answer: North Beach, San Francisco

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:59:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: poetry vs lawsuits

At 03:00 PM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:

>The rub is certainly expressed best here in Ron's final two questions...

>most importantly the one that asks the estate's motivation. Phil is pretty

>close to the whole scene and as it unfolds, he will no doubt be keeping

>the list up to date.

>The issues of what is to be gained and what could very well be lost are

>certainly ones relevant to this list, eh?

>Perhaps the time is now to establish a chaotic order or strategy. I doubt

>whether any of the powers respresented in this legal battle are present in

>this forum... so I wonder how it is that the 200-plus-change folks here

>might be able to express what opinion they might have regarding the

>preservation/access of GN's interview tapes to those people. Are there

>names? Are there adresses? is this skirmish getting much Lowell radio time?

>Is it present in The Sun's editorial pages, or letters?

>Jim

>

>Jim it's a massive undertaking to track down hundreds of peopleand obtain

open permission slips from them. Can it be done Yes can it be done by us no.

It seems Martha Mayo would have to help. Good luck. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:17:04 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:36:54 -0400 from <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Chris, why not give us your thoughts on the nature of Kerouac's use of Zen vs S

alinger's. This might stimulate some good discussion.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:29:27 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: poetry vs lawsuits

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:59:45 -0400 from <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

This may just be a quixotic attempt on my part to look for the silver

lining. Phil is right it could be a massive undertaking to locate all

the interviewees and obtain their permission at this point --

particularly so if Gerry doesn't haveaccurate addresses and phone

numbers. On the other hand, it presents an interesting opportunity for

scholars (a number of whom have been critical of Nicosia's research

methods) and graduate students to do further biographical work onKerouac

-- which might verify or add a new slant to the view of K presented in

Memory Babe. While the tapes may be sealed, I see no reason why the

list of interviewees has to be sealed. Is it? If not, interested

researchers could contact the interviewees and talk to them again --

this time making certain to gainthe proper permissions. Granted, it's

going over a lot of old ground again butit might not be a complete waste

of time. And while the researchers are doing their own interviews, they

might also ask for a release for the interviews already on file in the

Lowell library.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:47:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Stephen Davis <jd4716@NANDO.NET>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960612202329.6219D-100000@viking.cris.com>

> intriging. Today, I still love it. Certainly, the Beats were significantly

> into Zen or buddhism, and greatly influenced by it.

No question on that one. Personally, I've always found Gary Snyder's

work extremly facinating; the way in he combined beat ideas/attitudes

with the zen style of constrait simply amazes me. Also, I love to

compare his translation of the Han Shan poems with earlier translation;

its incredible to me how two diffrent out looks on life can cause cause

completly diffrent translations of the same work.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:59:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

I agree, i wish the tapes in the Ginsberg catalog were more available

to the public. They should be re-copied too, as many of them are magnetic

reel-to-reel originals, so old that the track are on each side are mixing (due

to the magic of magnetism) so you can hear forward and backward interviews at

the same time. Great stuff in that collection, esp material with Neal Cassady.

Someday maybe...

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:24:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

Though Sam Beckett might not be considered a beat, I have read of a book called

ZEN AND BECKETT by Paul Foster which might have some interesting information in

it. Don't know if it's still in print. has anyone read it? As I said, I have

heard of the book but have not read it. Any reviews would be appreciated.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:44:17 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

SPOTS OF TIME wrote:

>

> Though Sam Beckett might not be considered a beat, I have read of a book

called

> ZEN AND BECKETT by Paul Foster which might have some interesting information

in

> it. Don't know if it's still in print. has anyone read it? As I said, I have

> heard of the book but have not read it. Any reviews would be appreciated.

>

> Dave B.

Gee, I wonder if that's the same Paul Foster who was a Prankster back at La

Honda

with Kesey, et al. in the early 60s. He wrote a memior of his Prankster days

called "The Answer is Always YES". Anybody know?

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:29:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:59:26 EST from

<breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Yes, let's hope that Stanford has more resources to devote to cataloging and pr

eserving AG's materials than Columbia did.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:36:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

I wondered about that too, if it was the same Foster that was the Prankster.

If anyone knows, they win a big zen prize (nothing).

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:02:37 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <jstauffer@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Zen and the Beats

SPOTS OF TIME wrote:

>

> I wondered about that too, if it was the same Foster that was the Prankster.

> If anyone knows, they win a big zen prize (nothing).

>

> Dave B.

I'd also like to know, but I doubt it. The last I heard of the

Prankster Foster he had given up his enthusiasm for nitrous oxide to go

on the born again Xtianity--but all things are possible.

Jim Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:00:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: ARCHIVES

I know that Allen's office has a catalog of at least the recordings and videos

that are in the (now) Stanford collection. But that's a good question, how

available is it to the public. I know it is available to any scholoar who needs

to do research, probably via Stanford's library via Allen's office. But other

than that, I don't know if any "credentials" are needed or not to have access

to it. Maybe they can put it on the Internet someday.

Dave B.

Sunny Gambier, Ohio

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:19:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Zen and the beats

Zen sucks I'd rather talk about legal babble and petty lawsuits. JUST

KIDDING FOLKS

A really good book on the subject is "Big Sky Mind: Buddism and the Beat

Generation" by Carole Tonkinson I got my copy at Barnes and Nobles.

I believe in the sweetness

of Jesus

And Buddha-

I believe

In St Francis,

Avaloki

Tesvara,

the saints

Of First Century

India A D

And Scholars

Santidevan

And Otherwise

Santayanan

Everywhere

Jack Kerouac-Mexico City Blues

I have read that Jack had said he wasn't that serious about his Buddism and

that it was a just a phase in his life he went through. I can't remember

where I read that it might have been in an interview somewhere. He was born

and died a Catholic but isn't it great that he was so influenced by Buddhism

as evidence in his writings. I wonder how many people first learned of

Buddhism by reading "The Dharma Bums".

"How many a man has dated a new era in his life from reading of a

book"-Henry David Thoreau - from the introduction to "Big Sky Mind" Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:32:34 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Copy of letter to Jens Moellenhoff

>From: "JENS MOELLENHOFF" <JMOELLEN@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>

>To: gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:56:28 +1000

>Subject: Re: German youth movements

>Priority: normal

>

>

>> Dear Herr Moellenhoff:

>>

>> Since you suscribe to the beat lit mailing list, perhaps you could provide

>> some pointers on how to find more information on German counterparts of the

>> "Beat" phenomena. In particular, I'm thinking of the "Wandervogel" people,

>> who wore rucksacks, played guitars, wore long hair and sandals. I'm trying

>> to determine to what extend "nachtkultur" (please pardon my spelling if

>> it's not correct!) or nudism was involved. Also, were many students at the

>> Weimar Bauhaus involved in the Wandervogel? I'm writing a novel that takes

>> place partly in the early twenties at the Bauhaus and its pretty difficult

>> to find DETAILS on what daily life was like. Johannes Itten was a

>> fascinating person that many of the beats would have felt right at home

>> with. Thanks in advance.

>>

>> George Morrone

>>

>

>Dear George Morrone,

>

>It's so wonderfull being addressed as "Herr Moellenhoff", but you

>have to know that I'm just a 21-year-old pale-faced student trying

>to get the best as possible out of German and American (!) literature.

>

>Frankly said, I'm not too familiar with the "Wandervogel" or

>"NACKTKULTUR" (sorry for correcting you) movement. I also got only a

>rough impression from the "Weimar Bauhaus".

>

>I think, the movement that could be compared with the Beats

>concerning their attitude towards society, was the "Edelweiss

>Piraten". There are some connections between the "Edelweiss Piraten"

>and the "Wandervogel" movement, but it lasted longer.

>All over Germany from 1925-1950, there were groups

>of youngsters loosly organized like pirate gangs, who were sort of

>unconformistic. They just hung around in public places, sometimes

>were criminals, wore long hairs, weird, shabby clothes and

>clandestinely listened to "American nigger (pardon me for that word !)

>music" like Swing. They were definitly fascinated by American

>(sub-)culture.

>

>Of course they were suppressed most by the Nazis, because they

>were "unsocial elements". I know that the leaders of these groups

>often were arrested after police raids, but whether they were sent to

>Concentration Camps I don't know.

>

>To find DETAILS about life in 1920s Germany, I would recommend the

>following books:

>

>Alfred Doeblin: "Berlin Alexanderplatz" (filmed by Rainer Werner Fassbinder)

>Erich Kaestner's poems and novel "Fabian - the story of a moralist"

>Hermann Hesse: "Steppenwolf"

>(hasn't there been this weird hardrock group called "Steppenwolf" ?)

>

>I hope these details are useful to you. Maybe I'll send you more in a

>few weeks time.

>Jens

>Jens Moellenhoff

>

>Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

>Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

>

>University of Munich, Germany

>

>*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

>*** William S. Burroughs ***

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:32:41 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Copy of Letter to Jens Moellenhoff (2)

>From: "JENS MOELLENHOFF" <JMOELLEN@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>

>To: gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:07:00 +1000

>Subject: Re: German youth movements

>Priority: normal

>

>

>Dear George,

>

>> >I think, the movement that could be compared with the Beats

>> >concerning their attitude towards society, was the "Edelweiss

>> >Piraten". There are some connections between the "Edelweiss Piraten"

>> >and the "Wandervogel" movement, but it lasted longer.

>> >All over Germany from 1925-1950, there were groups

>> >of youngsters loosly organized like pirate gangs, who were sort of

>> >unconformistic.

>>

>> Are there any sources in English concerning these people? I can't think of

>> a better time to be an unconformist and alienated than 1925-1950.

>>

>

>I don't know of any sources in English concerning these people. If

>you take a really detailed book about German youth culture during

>the first half of the 20th century you'll surely find something about

>the "Edelweiss Piraten". I'll see if I can find something abot this

>topic on the WWW.

>

>> >Of course they were suppressed most by the Nazis, because they

>> >were "unsocial elements". I know that the leaders of these groups

>> >often were arrested after police raids, but whether they were sent to

>> >Concentration Camps I don't know.

>>

>> My guess is that they were drafted into the Army. The Nazis would forgive

>> anything except disloyalty.

>

>I think you are wrong. If you are a rebel against civil society, then

>what would you do in the army ? Do you know that cruel word

>"Wehrkraftzersetzung". I don't know the exact English word, but it

>means that you destroy the nation's power to "defend" itself. In the

>Nazi context, where it was used the most, this word becomes a certain

>meaning, that I surely don't have to explain.

>

>Jens

>Jens Moellenhoff

>

>Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

>Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

>

>University of Munich, Germany

>

>*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

>*** William S. Burroughs ***

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:27:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: poetry vs lawsuits

At 11:29 AM 6/13/96 EDT, you wrote:

>This may just be a quixotic attempt on my part to look for the silver

>lining. Phil is right it could be a massive undertaking to locate all

>the interviewees and obtain their permission at this point --

>particularly so if Gerry doesn't haveaccurate addresses and phone

>numbers. On the other hand, it presents an interesting opportunity for

>scholars (a number of whom have been critical of Nicosia's research

>methods) and graduate students to do further biographical work onKerouac

>-- which might verify or add a new slant to the view of K presented in

>Memory Babe. While the tapes may be sealed, I see no reason why the

>list of interviewees has to be sealed. Is it? If not, interested

>researchers could contact the interviewees and talk to them again --

>this time making certain to gainthe proper permissions. Granted, it's

>going over a lot of old ground again but it might not be a complete waste

>of time. And while the researchers are doing their own interviews, they

>might also ask for a release for the interviews already on file in the

>Lowell library.

>

>What a absolutely fantastic and positive idea!

The list of interviewees (names only) is on the internet at the U-Lowell

sight but I think that the effort to contact these people or their relatives

would have to be done by someone from or represented by the University. To

keep it professional and orderly and maybe even to keep it legal. What do

you think Bill? I wonder if Gerry would be willing to undertake such a

task.HMM interesting. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:36:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Beatitude & Zen

As we know, any potentially useful, authentic discussion of the beat/zen

connection will necessarily swerve from authority.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:38:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Hey--

Thinking NOW of Phil Whalen...

anyone else?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:48:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: zen

------------------

| |

| |

| |

| . |

| |

| |

| |

__________________

Zen connect the dots

"...Farmer,

pointing the way

with a radish..."

---Issa

"I have nothing to say

and I am saying it

that is poetry..."

---John Cage

"A monk asked Master Haryo,

'What is the way?'

Haryo said

'An open-eyed man

falling into the well...'"

---Zen koan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:53:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Buddhism and Jack

I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

while ago:

Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

That's what I got from it, sort of.

"So be sure." JK

Eric

Any comments, opposing thoughts please.

By the way, The Scripture is on the web somewheres. Checkitout if yahavent.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:59:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: aSIDE

aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

normal category. Just a suggestion.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:12:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Rivas <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

Subject: Re: Wandervogel

Dear George and Jean,

As a supplement to your =93Wandervogel=94 question and response, you migh=

t=20

find some further study into the pre-World War One =93Wandervogel=94=20

movement of some interest. You will definitely see some parallels=20

between Germany=92s turn of the century youth movement and the American=20

Beats: deep dissatisfaction with the hypocritical moral constraints of=20

industrial society and a turn towards naturalism (including a drop-out=20

mentality), a fascination with mysticism or an alternative religious=20

model ( in this case, ancient Germanic mythology as opposed to Zen),=20

philosophical curiosity, and a nomadic lifestyle (if memory serves, the=20

word =93Wandervogel=94 means wandering bird in german). Interestingly=20

enough, come 1914 and the start of WW1, a great percentage of the=20

=93Wandervogel=94 quickly enlisted in the German army and were considered=

=20

some of the most fervent nationalist. I=92ve heard at least one U.C.=20

Berkeley historian refer to the pre-war =93Wandervogel=94 as Germany=92s =

turn=20

of the century hippie movement.

Jim R.

George Morrone wrote:

>=20

> >From: "JENS MOELLENHOFF" <JMOELLEN@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>

> >To: gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

> >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:56:28 +1000

> >Subject: Re: German youth movements

> >Priority: normal

> >

> >

> >> Dear Herr Moellenhoff:

> >>

> >> Since you suscribe to the beat lit mailing list, perhaps you could p=

rovide

> >> some pointers on how to find more information on German counterparts=

of the

> >> "Beat" phenomena. In particular, I'm thinking of the "Wandervogel" p=

eople,

> >> who wore rucksacks, played guitars, wore long hair and sandals. I'm =

trying

> >> to determine to what extend "nachtkultur" (please pardon my spelling=

if

> >> it's not correct!) or nudism was involved. Also, were many students =

at the

> >> Weimar Bauhaus involved in the Wandervogel? I'm writing a novel that=

takes

> >> place partly in the early twenties at the Bauhaus and its pretty dif=

ficult

> >> to find DETAILS on what daily life was like. Johannes Itten was a

> >> fascinating person that many of the beats would have felt right at h=

ome

> >> with. Thanks in advance.

> >>

> >> George Morrone

> >>

> >

> >Dear George Morrone,

> >

> >It's so wonderfull being addressed as "Herr Moellenhoff", but you

> >have to know that I'm just a 21-year-old pale-faced student trying

> >to get the best as possible out of German and American (!) literature.

> >

> >Frankly said, I'm not too familiar with the "Wandervogel" or

> >"NACKTKULTUR" (sorry for correcting you) movement. I also got only a

> >rough impression from the "Weimar Bauhaus".

> >

> >I think, the movement that could be compared with the Beats

> >concerning their attitude towards society, was the "Edelweiss

> >Piraten". There are some connections between the "Edelweiss Piraten"

> >and the "Wandervogel" movement, but it lasted longer.

> >All over Germany from 1925-1950, there were groups

> >of youngsters loosly organized like pirate gangs, who were sort of

> >unconformistic. They just hung around in public places, sometimes

> >were criminals, wore long hairs, weird, shabby clothes and

> >clandestinely listened to "American nigger (pardon me for that word !)

> >music" like Swing. They were definitly fascinated by American

> >(sub-)culture.

> >

> >Of course they were suppressed most by the Nazis, because they

> >were "unsocial elements". I know that the leaders of these groups

> >often were arrested after police raids, but whether they were sent to

> >Concentration Camps I don't know.

> >

> >To find DETAILS about life in 1920s Germany, I would recommend the

> >following books:

> >

> >Alfred Doeblin: "Berlin Alexanderplatz" (filmed by Rainer Werner Fassb=

inder)

> >Erich Kaestner's poems and novel "Fabian - the story of a moralist"

> >Hermann Hesse: "Steppenwolf"

> >(hasn't there been this weird hardrock group called "Steppenwolf" ?)

> >

> >I hope these details are useful to you. Maybe I'll send you more in a

> >few weeks time.

> >Jens

> >Jens Moellenhoff

> >

> >Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

> >Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

> >

> >University of Munich, Germany

> >

> >*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

> >*** William S. Burroughs ***

> >

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:26:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Rivas <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

Subject: Allen G

Does anybody know if A.G. still teaching at the City Unviersity of New

York. If so, what courses (Graduate? Undergrad?)

Jim R.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:27:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: Re: Stephen Crane

>aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

>Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

>normal category. Just a suggestion.

Yes, I agree! His collection "The Black Riders" has many short poems

that suggest GREAT things with economy and understatement. Crane refused to

call his poems "poems", too (a bit like Kerouac and his "hymns" perhaps?).

Crane called them "lines". His short life reads very Beat, too: traveled

constantly, disputes with publishers, hungered for experience.

Based on what I've read, I would have to agree that Kerouac was

mostly a dabbler in Zen, particularly during his association with Snyder.

Dan

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 02:48:01 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Hey--

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 13, 1996 19:38:05, 'The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>' wrote:

>Thinking NOW of Phil Whalen...

>anyone else?

"On Bear's Head" got me through probably the worst year of my life. Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:21:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tim Donahue <Tim1461@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat Lit. Symposium

I seem to have joined this listserve in the middle of a lawsuit discussion.

Nevertheless, I offer this info from a flyer I received:

Call for Papers:

Beat Lit. Symposium 1996

University of Massachusetts - Lowell

Friday, October 4, 1996

Submissions welcome on:

* Kerouac's Lowell novells

* Portrayals of race, gender, sexuality in Kerouac's

fiction

* Beat poets, especiaslly Ginsberg, Corso, Snyder

* Kerouac's "spontaneous prose"

... open to other topics as well

Send your one-page proposal by July 31 to:

Prof. Hilary Holladay

English Department

U. Mass. Lowell

Lowell, MA 01845

holladayh@woods.uml.edu

The symposium will be held in conjunction with

"Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!" October 3 - 6,

a city-wide festival commemorating the writings of Lowell native Jack Kerouac

I hope it's of interest.

Tim Donahue

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:52:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hey--

There is a new book out by Phil Whalen, have not seen it out yet (at least in

my area which is no surprise).

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:06:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: Re: Zen and the beats

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.uucp>

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960613231945.00682740@pop.tiac.net>

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Phil Chaput wrote:

> I believe in the sweetness

> of Jesus

> And Buddha-

> I believe

> In St Francis,

> Avaloki

> Tesvara,

> the saints

> Of First Century

> India A D

> And Scholars

> Santidevan

> And Otherwise

> Santayanan

> Everywhere

> Jack Kerouac-Mexico City Blues

>

> I have read that Jack had said he wasn't that serious about his Buddism and

> that it was a just a phase in his life he went through. I can't remember

> where I read that it might have been in an interview somewhere. He was born

> and died a Catholic but isn't it great that he was so influenced by Buddhism

> as evidence in his writings. I wonder how many people first learned of

> Buddhism by reading "The Dharma Bums".

>

> "How many a man has dated a new era in his life from reading of a

> book"-Henry David Thoreau - from the introduction to "Big Sky Mind" Phil

>

I definetly did...

But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

greetings from germany

moritz

moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:15:27 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Allen G

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:26:00 -0700 from <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

Allen Ginsberg teaches at Brooklyn College. This fall he will be teaching an u

ndergraduate seminar on William Blake as well as his tutorials and coursework i

n our MFA creative writing program.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:14:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Wandervogel and Edelweiss Piraten

In-Reply-To: <v01530501ade6613d4293@[204.186.21.23]>

Hi!

I don't know how much it will be really related to your novel or the

characters in it, since I've never heard of the Wandervogel or Edelweiss

Piraten, but the latter group sounds somewhat like a group of students

who're the center of the movie "Swing Kids". It's pretty readily

availiable in the US, but I don't know about overseas.

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:20:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: aSIDE

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960613195557.17591B-100000@crystal.palace.net>

Yes! I've read a couple of poems by him and they're fantastic! Here are

two of my favorites:

Many Workmen

Many Workmen

Built a huge ball of masonry

Upon a mountaintop.

Then they went to the vaelly below,

And turned to behold their work.

"It is grand," they said;

They loved the thing.

Of a sudden, it moved:

It came upon them swiftly;

It crushed them all to blood.

But some had opportunity to squeal.

the next:

A Man Said to the Universe

A man said to the universe:

"Sir, I exsit!"

"However," replied the universe,

"The fact has not created in me

A sense of obligation."

jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Robert H. Sapp wrote:

> aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

> Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

> normal category. Just a suggestion.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:20:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Wandervo(e)gel

Being also interested in German lit. and its relation

to the Beats, I am intrigued with this latest "spin" on

things (i.e. the "Wandervoegel").

To this point and to the time-frame indicated, I might

suggest having a look at Hermann Hesse's short novel,

_Knulp_ (1915). This is the story of a vagabond/artist

and his youth, travels, and ultimately, his death. May

fit well into this topic (and it's an compelling work).

Trevor Smith

SUNY at Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:23:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject: Zen books

>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

I'm no expert on the subject, but I can offer some suggestions.

First, a lot of people refer to what the Beats were involved with as

"Buddhism"--which is pretty general. What interested writers like Gary

Snyder was "Ch'an Buddhism", which became "Zen Buddhism" when it made it to

feudal Japan in the 12th century. Ch'an--which means "mediation"--developed

in southern China during the Tang dynasty. This is the school of sudden

enlightenment, which featured much discipline, koans, and frequent physical

beating. But it was always a good natured and rewarding beating.

The best book I have read about the subject is "Zen Buddhism" (N.Y.:

Anchor) by D.T. Suzuki. He's more than a scholar--he's lived it. A very

entertaining (and short) book about a skeptical German academic who travels

to Japan and learns archery from Zen masters is "Zen and the Art of Archery"

(N.Y.: Pantheon) by Eugen Herrigel. The more I think about it, that book is

a must read. The most famous popular book about Zen is by Christmas

Humphreys (sounds like one of Kerouac's names), but the title escapes me.

Adios

Dan

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:59:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Moody <tmoody@WILEY.CSUSB.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zen books

>>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

>

>If it makes any sense to talk about at "authority" on Zen, it would be D>T>

Suzuki.

The Dutch mystery writer Janwillem vandewetering also wrote two wonderful

accounts of his experiences first in a Japanese Zen monastery and then in an

American one. "A Glimpse of Nothingness" and "The Empty Mirror" they're

called.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:32:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Song for Nobody: Thomas Merton, Zen, & The Beats

Remember Thomas Merton when checking into Zen & The Beats. First thing

Lawrence Ferlinghetti asked when I brought him to Louisville for few days was

will you take me to visit Merton's grave at Abbey of Gethsemani. Merton spent

last night of his life in USA at Ferlinghetti's in California. Merton

published The Beats (see Monk's Pond) plus immersed himself in Zen. Some

conspiracy theorists believe his mysterious death (Bangkok, Thailand 1968. yr

before Jack's) had something to do with his religious politics of stepping

outside the epistemological boundaries of Catholicism & his Trappist vows. He

became friends with His Holiness The Dalai Lama (who's doing one week retreat

this summer at Merton's Hermitage), wrote extensively on Buddhism (incl Zen

brand), & is as responsible as anyone for building bridge between orient &

occident, Buddhism & Christianity. Besides The Seven Storey Mountain

(Merton's autobiography) other books of interest are: Zen and the Birds of

Appetite, Mystics and Zen Masters, The Asian Journal, Thomas Merton on Peace,

The Way of Chuang Tzu, plus Ron Seitz' Song For Nobody: A Memory Vision of

Thomas Merton (most inside personal view of Merton to date), plus new

7-volume journals of Thomas Merton (1st 3 are out. 1 issued every 6 months by

Harper Collins), plus White Fields Press Published in Heaven Poster Series'

Thomas Merton's The Harmonies of Excess & Ron Seitz' Thomas Merton plus

upcoming Ron Seitz' Upon First Meeting Thomas Merton. Thanks! Ron Whitehead

6/14/96 7:27PM P.S. Plus for new Beat publication watch for August

issue of TRIBE magazine (release July 31st) I'm Guest Editor of. Cover to

cover Beat (& otherr) material. I just completed long interview with William

S. Burroughs which will be featured along with new photos of Burroughs (front

cover & inside) by John Blumb (his photographer)

(Neil Hennessey recently did interview with Burroughs I'm hoping to publish

somewhere in White Fields Press Series in near future). Issue will also

include new work (interviews, poems, photos) on/by Diane di Prima, Lawrence

Ferlinghetti, Robert Creeley, David Amram, Ed Sanders, & others. Going back

to New Orleans on 18th for few days to wrap issue up & delive to printer.

I'll give more updated information at end of month.

Thanks! Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:30:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Zen books

At 03:59 AM 6/15/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>>>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>>>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

>>

>>If it makes any sense to talk about at "authority" on Zen, it would be D>T>

>Suzuki.

>The Dutch mystery writer Janwillem vandewetering also wrote two wonderful

>accounts of his experiences first in a Japanese Zen monastery and then in an

>American one. "A Glimpse of Nothingness" and "The Empty Mirror" they're

>called.

>

From Phil C.

>D.T. Zuzuki writes---

Among the most remarkable features characterizing Zen we find these:

spirituality, directness of expression, disregard of form or

conventionalism, and frequently an almost wanton delight in going astray

from respectability.- D.T. Suzuki

Boy does that sound like Jack K. or what? Some cool Zen sayings>>>

When a monk asked, " what is the Buddha?" Ummon (863-949) replied,"A shit

wiping stick."

I don't know. I don't care. And it doesn't make any difference.-Jack Kerouac

Sacred cows make great hamburgers- Robert Reisner

The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be.- Bruce Lee

Zen is like looking for the specticles that are sitting on your nose- Zen saying

How describe the delicate thing that happens when a brilliant insect alights

on a flower? Words, with their weight, fall upon the picture like birds of

prey.- Jules Renard but Jack Kerouac turned the hawk into a dove- Phil

Let's hear your best Zen sayings>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:01:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Buddhism and Jack (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT)

From: Robert H. Sapp <rhs4@crystal.palace.net>

To: beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu

Subject: Buddhism and Jack

I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

while ago:

Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

That's what I got from it, sort of.

"So be sure." JK

Eric

Any comments, opposing thoughts please.

By the way, The Scripture is on the web somewheres. Checkitout if yahavent.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:35:12 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Buddhism and Jack (fwd)

The <<Buddhist Bible>> is a collection of Buddhist Scriptures which served

as a primary resource for the beats. It contains the Diamond Sutra which

Jack read and memorized extensively. This wonderful anthology is in print

again and available on the shelf at mainstream bookstores. Scripture of

the Golden Eternity can sound like a bunch of gobbelety gook until one

begins to understand Buddhist teachings. It then becomes a tribute to

Jack's genius. It's not hard to see why some consider Jack a major figure

in American Buddhism.

You can also check out "Tricycle" magazine which recently serialized

Jack's Version of Siddharta. If Tricycle is the East Coast versions,

"Shambhala Sun" is the West Coast magazine of American Buddhism and has

more pictures of Gary Snyder. Both are excellent and worth checking out.

Gee. Hope I'm not sounding too pompous. Don't mean to be

Mark Hemenway

Dharma beat magazine

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:22:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject: Literary Kicks

I noticed that Wired listed Levi's Literary Kicks in the net surf of the

July issue describing it as "a beautifully assembled shrine dedicated to all

people, places and things beat." Good to see Levi receive this well

deserved plug!!

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:02:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Janwillem van de Wetering

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960615003053.006742a4@pop.tiac.net> from "Phil Chaput"

at Jun 14, 96 08:30:53 pm

J.d.v.W.'s fiction also has a lot of Buddhist philosophy,which may seem

strange in light of the fact that he writes a series based upon the

exploits of 2 cops and their boss who work for the Amsterdam police.

(J.d.v.W. was also a cop,in addition to having lived in/written of

living in a Buddhist monastery)

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:08 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: FBI Files on Kerouac, Ginsberg & Co. ?

It strikes me as very likely that J. Edgar Hoover (for whom Kerouac &

Ginsberg were probably his worst nightmares!) had the FBI investigate them.

Has anyone requested the files (if they exist) from the FBI (under the

freedom of information act) or the National Archives? It would make pretty

interesting reading!

George

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:12 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: An excellent book on Zen

Check out "Questions to a Zen Master" by Taisen Deshimaru:

Firewood becomes ashes; the ashes cannot become firewood again and the

firewood cannot see it's own ashes.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:06:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Zen and the beats

Phil wrote:

>Zen sucks I'd rather talk about legal babble and petty lawsuits. JUST

>KIDDING FOLKS

But seriously, ... I was wondering: this list is being archived somewhere,

right? Maybe someday some enterprising editor will want to publish some of

this stuff... Will they have to get permission from the people who submit

letters? Or are the e-mail contributions in the public domain? Anyway, I

hereby place my own modest contributions in the public domain.

>I have read that Jack had said he wasn't that serious about his Buddism and

>that it was a just a phase in his life he went through. I can't remember

>where I read that it might have been in an interview somewhere.

To me, Zen, Taoism and Buddhism are disciplines, and as we know, Jack, as

good a writer as he was, never took well to discipline. I can't imagine him

staying in one place long enough to acquire any systematic or focused

doctrine or practice. Discipline and Beat sensibility CAN go together,

though. Consider Gary Snyder. Speaking of whom, what's the best Snyder bio

other than "Dimensions of a Life?" (Which I've already read.)

>He was born

>and died a Catholic but isn't it great that he was so influenced by Buddhism

>as evidence in his writings. I wonder how many people first learned of

>Buddhism by reading "The Dharma Bums".

I first read D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Zen Buddhism," then stuff by

Alan Watts & Aldous Huxley (AW, AH, and Timothy Leary were my "holy

trinity" in the late sixties!) Suzuki's book was like a flash of lightning

on a late, humid summer afternoon. Then came Hermann Hesse. I first read

"The Dharma Bums" at college in the early seventies. (The character I liked

best was Japhy Ryder.)

George

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:06:19 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism and Jack

>I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

>while ago:

>Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

>the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

>It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

We westerners often confuse Nirvana, Satori, etc. with passivity and

negativity. IF this was Jack's interpretation of Eastern religion (and I

think it was, but haven't read enough to be sure) he was wrong about that

aspect of it. Was Jack something of a Nihilist? and did he see in Buddhism

justification for his renunciation? I guess fundamentally, the question I

would like to ask is: how did Jack construct his identity? How did he

define himself?

>It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

>going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

>ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

>gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

>dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

>am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

>So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

Even if all that is true, it's no excuse not to care for each other, live a

stable life, marry and raise children (if that's what you want,) develop

oneself as a writer; work for human rights. Much of what Jack criticized

WAS wrong. Still, we can chill, find peace, have fun, and also study and

work.

George

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:02:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Fave Zen Quote

Hi, Beats!

"Go to bed now, quickly. Quickly and slowly."

J.D. Salinger

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:27:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: oriental vs occidental

Hello! What does it mean to say Taoism Buddhism Zen are disciplines?

Discipline as in way of life? Tao means The Way. Buddha means fully

enlightened one from root buddh to wake up. Zen (ch'an in Chinese, dhyana in

Sanskrit) means meditation (school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes meditation

as its primary practice). Questions. Words. No answers. How translate

definitions into understanding? And do different cultures understand

experience differently? Is eastern oriental mind being different than western

occidental mind being? Kerouac, in Scattered Poems (City Lights, Pocket Poet

Series #28), gives some personal insight when he says "The 'Haiku' was

invented and developed over hundreds of years in Japan to be a complete poem

in seventeen syllables and to pack in a whole vision of life in three short

lines. A 'Western Haiku' need not concern itself with the seventeen syllables

since Western languages cannot adapt themselves to the fluid syllabillic

Japanese. I propose that the 'Western Haiku' simply say a lot in three short

lines in any Western language. Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and

free of all poetic trickery and make a little picture and yet be as airy and

graceful as a Vivaldi Pastorella."

Do you have an affinity to Taoism Buddhism Zen? Do you select what works best

for you and apply it to your own life your own experience your own

understanding? Do you consider yourself to be disciplined but disciplined in

your own way rather than a prescribed traditional way? Didn't Kerouac (&

other poet mystics) take from the world what worked best for him & allow that

new knowledge to wed his own inner experience & from that consummated inner

relationship gave birth to new forms of expression of being of understanding.

Kerouac revealed, via personal choice & necessity, that the fresh wind of

creative imagination & expression (holy spirit?) breathed into the best of

disciplines can break arbitrary bonds while allowing a freer new expression

of ancient truth plus lead to a less stressed life (The Dalai Lama told me

"their's nothing wrong with knowing happiness"). And just because his life

ended the way it did doesn't mean he didn't know the AH & AHA time & time

again before the final long dark slide.

Zen is as much no discipline as it is discipline. Zen is complete immersion

into life, complete engagement in being, in being self or in being other.

Zen is letting go completely, living fully in spontaneous now, living without

safety net, taking holy unholy risks. Zen discipline also enables focus,

focus to point of being able to exit self & enter other whatever whoever

other might be so one can experience Zen from many (infinite?) perspectives.

Other words that relate to (& can lead to) this experience are sympathy,

empathy (ability to be an empath, to enter another at least thru imagination

& experience world thru their eyes), compassion, negative capability. In Zen

All-Connectedness is recognized.

Another response to what Zen is =

In Kentucky

I pass fast

on one lane bridges

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:34:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Seconding George's Motion

Hi, fellow Beats:

I agree with George, it would be very interesting indeed to see what ole

J.Edgar might have had on Jack, Ginsberg and others! If memory serves me,

and as the years pass, it doesn't always to that; I believe Ginsberg did

protest the war. And in general, the whole Beat lifestyle would have

certainly been a subject of immense curiosity for Hoover. If anyone can

get info, I would really appreciate reading about it.

Also, as the mother of three Generation X'ers, I'd like to pose a question

to our younger Beats out there. I find this really fascinating, and I hope

the Boomer Beats will indulge me.<g> My teenagers have told me that hands

down, Kurt Cobain, was into Zen very deeply. They, in fact, had me listen

to some of his lyrics, and indeed, there are some references, some very

blatant ones such as, "come as you are, as you were," etc. Needless, to

say, this is something that had passed me by. I'd be interested in any

comments from any of you "younger cats" out there:)) You can write me

personally, if you would prefer to do so, but please, I'm posing this

legitimately for my kids, no flames. Thanks.

Thanks,

Chris

forza@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:13:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: come as you are, as you were

Hello! You can know Zen be Zen without ever knowing the word Zen or its

definition or practicing the discipline in Zen monastery. Many people are Zen

without knowing it officially. Icognito libido

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:07:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject: Cobain and Zen

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>I agree with George, it would be very interesting indeed to see what ole

>J.Edgar might have had on Jack, Ginsberg and others

You might want to check out <http://parascope.infozone.com/request.html>.

You can use this to generate a info request for government files on

individuals as is allowed by the Freedom of Information Act.

>Also, as the mother of three Generation X'ers, I'd like to pose a question

>to our younger Beats out there. I find this really fascinating, and I hope

>the Boomer Beats will indulge me.<g> My teenagers have told me that hands

>down, Kurt Cobain, was into Zen very deeply.

A lot of people say they are really into Zen or Buddhism but have no clue. I

really can't answer for you whether or not Cobain's Zen was legit or not.

What I can tell you that his wife had some of his ashes sent to a Buddhist

temple in Tibet -- or at least that's the rumor I've heard.

E Hertzog

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:12:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Jackson Pollock and the Beat Generation

If anyone is planning to be in the East Hampton, NY area in mid July, there

is an interesting lecture scheduled.

The Pollock-Krasner House and Study Center (Jackson Pollock's and Lee

Krasner's house and studio) has seven lectures planned for their summer

series, dealing with various aspects of contempory art. The first,

scheduled for 14 July, is "Jackson Pollock and the Beat Generation", given

by Ellen G. Landau from Case Western Reserve University. The program begins

at 5 pm and costs $12. Seating is very limited. If you want more

information, the phone number of the Center is 516-324-4929.

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:14:59 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

>Hello! What does it mean to say Taoism Buddhism Zen are disciplines?

>Discipline as in way of life?

Yes. Consider the following two quotes from John Blofeld's excellent book:

"'Immortality' is the term by which Taoists at at every level of

understanding designate their goal..." p. 15

"Attainment of immortality means successful cultivation of the Way.

Cultivation of the way is a lifelong process of refinement of the adept's

consciousness. Bringing to bear his fully integrated powers of body and

mind, he gradually discovers his real self - which in a sense is no-self."

p. 40 John Blofeld

Taoism: The Road to Immortality

>Questions. Words. No answers. How translate

>definitions into understanding? And do different cultures understand

>experience differently? Is eastern oriental mind being different than western

>occidental mind being?

"The secret of Zen is the practice of zazen. Zazen is difficult, I know.

But, practiced daily, it is a very effective way of expanding consciousness

and developing intuition. Zazen releases and mobilizes energy; it is also

the posture of awakening." p xiii

Taisen Deshimaru, Questions to a Zen Master

>Do you have an affinity to Taoism Buddhism Zen?

It's hard to explain, but when I read what people like D. T. Suzuki or John

Blofeld write I respond; it strikes a chord.

>Do you select what works best

>for you and apply it to your own life your own experience your own

>understanding?

I practice Zazen; not as often as I should; but when I do I know what

Taisen Deshimaru is talking about.

>Do you consider yourself to be disciplined but disciplined in

>your own way rather than a prescribed traditional way?

Just living a settled life with job, wife, kids, bills to pay takes a

considerable amount of discipline! I've lived the way Kerouac & Co. did

back in the early seventies when I got out of the Navy but recognized how

destructive it was.

>Didn't Kerouac (&

>other poet mystics) take from the world what worked best for him & allow that

>new knowledge to wed his own inner experience & from that consummated inner

>relationship gave birth to new forms of expression of being of understanding.

What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him! He was miserable and had

constantly to kill the pain with alcohol! He was not happy, gave up on

life, and thought he found justification for his renunciation in Buddhism.

I could make my point by contrasting Kerouac and Gary Snyder. Don't think

I'm condemning Jack, though. He dealt with his problems as best he could,

and made some bad choices, but he was a great writer and I respect that.

>Kerouac revealed, via personal choice & necessity, that the fresh wind of

>creative imagination & expression (holy spirit?) breathed into the best of

>disciplines can break arbitrary bonds while allowing a freer new expression

>of ancient truth plus lead to a less stressed life (The Dalai Lama told me

>"their's nothing wrong with knowing happiness").

True, but Kerouac's life was highly stressful.

>And just because his life

>ended the way it did doesn't mean he didn't know the AH & AHA time & time

>again before the final long dark slide.

His life ending the way it did was the logical outcome of the choices he

made. He was right about a great many things and I wish he had more respect

for himself and his ability. I also wish he were capable of earning a

living apart from his writing: a trade such as carpentry or cooking cab

driving would have benefited his writing.

>Zen is as much no discipline as it is discipline. Zen is complete immersion

>into life, complete engagement in being, in being self or in being other.

>Zen is letting go completely, living fully in spontaneous now, living without

>safety net, taking holy unholy risks. Zen discipline also enables focus,

>focus to point of being able to exit self & enter other whatever whoever

>other might be so one can experience Zen from many (infinite?) perspectives.

Most of the time, Kerouac was not focused, Snyder was!

>Other words that relate to (& can lead to) this experience are sympathy,

>empathy (ability to be an empath, to enter another at least thru imagination

>& experience world thru their eyes), compassion, negative capability. In Zen

>All-Connectedness is recognized.

>Another response to what Zen is =

>

All that may be true; it's still no excuse for laziness, passivity,

self-destructiveness, nihilism, alcoholism, drug abuse.

>

"... it may be thought that the critics are justified in charging Zen with

advocating a philosophy of pure negation, but nothing is so far from

Zen...Mere negation is not the spirit of Zen..." p. 51

"Apparently Zen negates, but it is always holding up before us something

which indeed lies right before our own eyes; and if we do not pick it up by

ourselves, it is our own fault. Most people, whose mental vision is

darkened by the clouds of ignorance, pass it by and refuse to look at it.

To them Zen is, indeed, nihilism, just because they do not see it." p. 52

D. T. Suzuki Introduction to Zen Buddhism

George

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:07:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: oriental vs occidental II

Hello! Much of George's responsive is relative to his own experience. Just

becaus you experience something as true doesn't mean it's true for anyone

else. Is living a life with job, wife, kids, bills a settled & therefore

disciplined way of living? Perhaps it is for you, for some. For others it may

be just the opposite. You lived the way Kerouac & Co. did but recognized how

destructive it was. Fine. Destructive for you Destructive for them. Perhaps.

Does that negate Kerouac & Co. in any way? Perhaps from your own experience &

point of view but where does that leave us leave you? What is truth? Do you

know? We move forward by the aid of symbols & we change those symbols as we

move forward. Of what real profit is it to us, to deprive life of all its

dreams, of all its beautiful mysticism and of all its lies (thank you K.H.)?

What do you mean What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him. With

suffering comes humility, and with it, in the end wisdom (thank you J.S.).

Kerouac suffered much. He caused suffering (i.e. his daughter Jan). But what

he did in his life worked for him in as many ways as it didn't. His creative

work is some of the best in the history of world literature (despite highbrow

academic criticism). Pain and joy, failure and succes are different sides of

same coin called human nature human being. To say this is good that is bad

you succeeded because of this you failed because of that is reductive & does

not allow full emotional mental physical spiritual depth of being human. We

learn to walk but fall time & time again. We don't give up but keep getting

up until we walk. As adults for some reason we allow society to convince us

that if we fall we fail. That's a lie I refuse to believe. Beckett said To be

an artist is to fail as no other dare fail.

To fail is to live to be human. Breathe deep of failure of success of life.

Yes Kerouac's life was stressful. And through that stress look at the

beautiful gems he created gifts he gave to us which help us endure the pain

the stress the suffering inherent in life.

Judge not that ye be not judged: Even if the end of Jack's life was the

logical (logic?) outcome of the choices he made so what? Does that logical

outcome negate the beautiful gifts, created in the midst of deep pain, he

bestowed granted to us & to those who follow? Yes wouldn't it be great if he

had more self-esteem? Wouldn't it be great if we all did. But if a frog had

wings it wouldn't bump its ass. We make the most of what we have & hopefully,

if we ever learn anything, we do it without condemning others or thinking

feeling that we're better than anyone simply because we live or think a

certain way (prescribed or not). Perhaps carpentry cooking or cab driving

would have benefited his writing. Perhaps not. Who are we to say?

Most of the time Kerouac was not focused? Excuse me but no one, no one could

have written like Kerouac without being focused like few have been focused in

history of human race. To compare to grade Kerouac & Snyder on levels of

focus & ability is mistake. They are different (but connected) writers

different human beings.

no excuse for laziness, passivity, self-destructiveness, nihilism alcoholism

drug abuse.

to sit in judgment over any one other than self is mistake. who can know what

pain, sorrow, joy any other human being experiences. What difference does it

make what good does it do to condemn for what you see or believe is wrong?

Why not either let the other live her or his own life, learning through

experience, and if anything offer a helping hand when you can. Who knows what

lessons a human being learns by being lazy, passive, self-destructive,

nihilist, alcoholic, drug abuser? tolerance may be the greatest love. Allow

each individual to learn to grow on their own terms rather than terms you or

society or tradition prescribes. Always offer to help if the other person

asks or if you think your hand might ease their pain their burden. You, me,

society cannot teach anyone anything. People learn through experience, they

learn when they are ready to learn & learning only takes place deep inside in

the gonads the solar plexus the gut the heart.

I agree that engagement is The Way but what does it mean to be engaged.

Engagement is different for every person.

In Kentucky the heart of poetry (word symbol & definition) is best

represented as real experience, in other words Poetry is Life, Life is Poetry

as in actually holding your naked newborn baby to drink from your breasts as

in planting the first seeds of spring into the freshly ploughed eartas in

kissing your dying mother your just dead father on the forehead and saying

goodbye I Love You. Ron Whitehead 6/16/96 4:07PM

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:40:21 -0400

Reply-To: CMJ <Forza@cris.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Consoling Myself About Jack

Hi, again:

As you can see, I have absolutely nothing better to do today:) But this

Zen thing is very interesting to me.

I've dabbled a bit in Zen, and do not in the very least, consider myself

qualified at all to speak with any authority, whatsoever. And I would ask

anyone from the group to "enlighten" me on anything I might say.

>From what I think I know, the religion says that man goes through seven

lives before attaining complete enlightenment. An example of this, in

literature would be J.D. Salinger's "Seymour Glass." From what I remember

from my college years, (years ago) - was that the character of Seymour,

was in his "last life," and killed himself because he knew he was. He had

attatined everything he possibly could have on this earth. He was a "holy

man," the buddha of the whole Glass family. Seymour or "See-More," saw

more, knew more, etc.

With George talking about Jack's self-destructive ways, I just had to

agree with him wholeheartedly, but I also would like to say, that I feel

maybe Jack was a lot like "Seymour." I console myself about many great

artists whom I have admired in the way I admire Jack, by simply telling

myself, "well, he was probably in his last life." There was simply no more

for him to say or do. I don't think Jack could have done anything

different than he did, job-wise or otherwise. Highly creative people do

not seem to be happy with anything else, but their great love of what they

do.

I have a real on-going argument with someone about this very thing in

another group I'm in. This person suggests to me that artistic people are

basically "manic-depressive" or "mad genuises" and take to a

self-destructive lifestyle when their creativity is down. My whole point

is, that they wouldn't be so self-destructive if they hadn't experienced

the lives they had, but they also would not be as creative as they are.

Why do they all seem to know so much? Why do they all seem to "see-more"

than others do?

I enjoyed George's telling us he, "went the way of Jack & Co. in the early

70's." Hey, George, so did I, and I'm a woman <g>.(Not many people are

willing to admit it, though, but what the hell?) It was great while it

lasted. But sooner or later, as George so rightly points out; it's time

for marriage, kids, jobs and paying the bills. But I truly believe for

people such as Jack, this is not a viable option, there is much more to be

done. So I do console myself by thinking Jack went the way of Zen.

As I've said, I'm not qualifed on any level to really speak to this

subject at all. I am, in fact, just an ole romantic, ex-English lit major,

who prefers to think about Jack and others we've lost so prematurely, in

this fashion. At least it is a consolation to me:))

Thanks for your time,

Chris

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:27:59 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Re: Consoling Myself About Jack

Comments: To: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960616155846.18380A-100000@galileo.cris.com>

Well, I'm very, very grateful for the many other creative people on this

planet who are brilliant, sane, and healthy, who continue to produce

extraordinary writing, art, film, dance. Some may have had humble

beginnings, or had a rough life, but they got through it, and we are all

the better for it. May they live long and prosper!

D.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:55:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: FBI Files on Kerouac, Ginsberg & Co. ?

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:08 -0600 from

<gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Yes, I know AG has requested his FBI files under the freedom of

Information Act. There was also a book published several years ago

which included transcripts of FBI files on various writers including

Ginsberg and Hemingway. I don't remember the title. Maybe someone can

help me out. I'll look for it. If I find it, I'll post it.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:21:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Women beats

Noticed this post thought anyone who hasn't seen it would find it interesting.

This fall, Conari Press is publishing "Women of the Beat Generation: The

Writers, Artists and Muses at the Heart of a Revolution"

edited by Brenda Knight, foreword by Anne Waldman, afterword by Ann

Charters. Look for it in your local bookstore, or contact Conari for more

info:

800-685-9595

conaripub@aol.com

http://www.readersndex.com/conari/

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:58:27 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 15, 1996 23:27:02, 'Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>In Kentucky

>I pass fast

>on one lane bridges

>

>Ron Whitehead

In Amish country--

Long line of fast cars behind

Black horse and buggy.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:24:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

1 In Kentucky

always

I go too far

3 In Kentucky

my skin turns

blue & I holler

12 In Kentucky

I don't go

to the Derby

I3 In Kentucky

springtime lie down

in orange sagebrush

14 In Kentucky

with old Blue

watch white clouds

16 In Kentucky

my heart

is breaking

17 In Kentucky

moon shines

comets are loud

18 In Kentucky

music

is mountainous

21 In Kentucky

I am

no more

33 In Kentucky say goodbye

to bluegrass highways

raise barns with Amish

Chalk Skin Bending

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:19:14 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zen books

Highly recomended is AMBIVILANT ZEN (excuse my spelling) by Lawrence Shainberg.

A good book on Zen, not so much about the Beats, but good none the less. New in

hardcover.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:44:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kurt and Zen?

Comments: cc: forza@concentric.net

First, there is a great bio of Kurt Cobain called "Come As You Are". In all

the material I have read on him, I saw nothing to indicate KC had more than a

superficial interest in Zen. It's probable that well meaning persons tried

to get KC into meditation to calm him, I'm sure he tried it, but he never

followed through and made it a part of his hectic life (can you imaging

trying to meditate with Courtney screaming about something?). Kurt's cronic

ulcers did not help either.

KC was a bright fellow. If he had taken the time to pursue outside interests

and found some balance in his life, he might still be with us. His problem

was not unlike Jack Kerouac's - neither was ready for fame. Both ended up

distroying themselves (Kerouac's method was slower, but just as effective).

I saw Nirvana once. I got so depressed I walked out toward the end. I think

KC's music had the effect on me that he desired. I was used to the joy of

Grateful Dead concerts and the Nirvana vibe was too different for me at the

time. Since then I've developed a greater appreciation for KC's music and I

now believe he was THE musical giant of the 1990's. What a great writer he

was too. Great songwriting IS poetry (anyone disagree?) At least some of the

greatness of Nirvana lives on with Dave Grohl and the Foo Fighters. Dave is

a musical genius too but is not the tormented soul that Kurt was. He will

stick around for awhile. RIP Kurt.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:54:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

Mind, Beginners Mind." Maybe there is a state called the "Don't Know Mind" as

opposed to, or complimented by, the "No Mind" state.

JE NE SAIS PAS

I dont know who I am

I dont know what I want

I dont know why I'm here

I dont know who got here first

I dont know what it all has to do with me

I dont know why I dont make my bed

I dont know why I keep losing my socks

I dont know why my mom keeps calling me

I dont know why I keep rolling that damn rock up the hill

I dont know if I get enough sleep

I dont know what it means when I fly in my dreams

I dont know the appropriate life skills

I dont know how it all works

I dont know if I have any regrets

I dont know how to not sweat the small shit

I dont know how to hold my own with other guys

I dont know how to do the relationship thing

I dont know how to laugh

I dont know how to cry

I dont know why the harder I try the harder it gets

I dont know why my cat prefers the carpet to the litter box

I dont know if tomorrow ever comes of if it belongs to me

I dont know if UFO's exist

I dont know if professional wrestlers are faking it or not

I dont know if Eddie Haskell is really Alice Cooper

I dont know who wrote the book of love or if I even care

I dont know if "Louie, Louie" is the Great Western Mantra

I dont know if Elvis is dead or if Jim Morrison is alive

and running guns in Honduras

I dont know if you've heard the one about the Zen vacuum cleaner;

it has no attachments

I dont know why we die

I dont know what time is

I dont know if God plays dice

I dont know if reincarnation really matters

I dont know if meditation is the highest form of prayer

I dont know if prayer is the highest form of song

I dont know why Bob Dylan always sounds like its killing him to sing

I dont know if a woman named "J" wrote the Bible

I dont know why there are homeless children

I dont know why most men are proud of the fact that their underpants

are torn and frayed

I dont know how to get rid of the smell of catpiss in my carpet

I dont know why some people insist that the Holocaust never happened

I dont know why evil men prosper and the good die young

I dont know if God is a hairy thunderer or a cosmic elf named "Muffy"

I dont know if we'll ever develop cold fusion

I dont know if Shakespeare was gay

I dont know if Beethoven was black

I dont know J.R."Bob" Dobbs is the Messiah

I dont know why O.J. walked

I dont know why Jesus wept

I dont know if I have anything to prove

I dont know if I have anything to say

I dont know why these things happen

I dont know what the hell is going on

Copyright 1996

Paul McDonald

1187 East Broadway #3

Louisville, KY 40204

(502)583-8014

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:03:53 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Fave Zen Quote

My favorite zen koan:

"Zen is an aberration."

- Mortimer J. Adler

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:15:33 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch wrote:

>

> I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

> showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

> Mind, Beginners Mind."

Frogive me for correcting you but "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" is NOT written by

D.T.

Suzuki. It's written by that other Suzuki who I believe founded the San Fran Zen

Center. Can't remember his first name.

ZM/BM is a wonderful book, but D.T. Suzuki is my personal fave and also was a

huge

influence on the Beats. Gary Snyder would hitch hike carrying D.T. Suzuki's

"Essays

on Zen Buddhism".

Since I've got your attention, there's a wonderful story about the time Jack,

Allen

and Peter met D. T. Suzuki. I'll find it and post it tomorrow.

John H.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:22:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: zen koan

Hello! zen koan: we know the sound of one ass braying

but do we really know the difference between

an ass and a hole in the ground

2 x 2 = 5

A.H.A.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:33:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

Thank you for correcting me. The author is Shunryu Suzuki.

Paul

"What is the sound of one clam humping?"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:27:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

John H. wrote:

>Forgive me for correcting you but "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" is NOT written

by D.T. Suzuki. It's written by that other Suzuki who I believe founded the

San Fran Zen Center. Can't remember his first name.ZM/BM is a wonderful

book, but D.T. Suzuki is my personal fave and also was a huge influence on

the Beats. Gary Snyder would hitch hike carrying D.T. Suzuki's "Essays on

Zen Buddhism".Since I've got your attention, there's a wonderful story about

the time Jack,Allen and Peter met D. T. Suzuki. I'll find it and post it

tomorrow. John H.

"Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" Shunryu Suzuki New York and Tokyo:John

Wetherhill, Inc.1970

Yes find that story and post it that sounds good. P.C.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:55:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: USA TODAY today 6/17/96

Hello! Check out USA TODAY today 6/17/96 under Leisure Travel. Half page

titled "'On the Road' in a bohemian generation's footsteps." Based on

interview with Doug Brinkley lists his top picks of places to follow Beat

history. Doug called me from airport early this morning. He's just back from

Europe & headed to NYC for C-Spam interview tonight at 7PM. I'm producing

this New Orleans INSOMNIACATHON at Doug's request. Article lists Eisenhower

Center at Univ of New Orleans as sponsor for event & gives their number. They

are one of several sponsors: the literary renaissance, The Majic Bus, City of

New Orleans, Louisiana Arts Council, TRIBE magazine, CORPSE (formerly

EXQUISITE),

The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, & The Howlin Wolf Club. I'm headed

to New Orleans in morn for few days work. When return I'll update you all on

event.

Event official title is: RANT for the literary renaissance & The Majic Bus

present Voices Without Restraint 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry

INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center & The Howlin Wolf

Club Aug 16-18.

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:19:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Buddhist (if not zen) quote/Woodstock Journal

Comments: cc: RHulvey@aol.com

and what's the Work?

To ease the pain of living

Everything else, drunken

dumbshow

Allen Ginsberg "Memory Gardens"

-----------------

I first saw this quote in Ed Sanders' "Woodstock Journal", and it now occurs

to me I've never seen the paper mentioned here. Very much a local paper, and

more than that. Ultra-sane (lots of ha ha hee); environmentally concerned,

socially active, in the face and yes, poetry: Anne Waldman, Ginsberg,

Sanders, Robert Kelly, Richard Paridisio.

Some as yet unpublished stuff, I seem to recall.

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:51:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Moody <tmoody@WILEY.CSUSB.EDU>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

>On Jun 15, 1996 23:27:02, 'Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>

>

>>In Kentucky

>>I pass fast

>>on one lane bridges

>>

>>Ron Whitehead

>

>In Amish country--

>Long line of fast cars behind

>Black horse and buggy.

>

>Mark J

>

In L>A>

Long line of fast cars creeping behind

another long line of fast cars.>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:17:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199606170358.DAA29637@pipe2.ny1.usa.pipeline.com>

can i get unsubscribed

cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "never know how i wanted to feel |-|

|-| never quite said what i wanted to |-|

|-| say to you and now the time is gone |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

`

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:54:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: What are these things?

In-Reply-To: <960615232702_135870349@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Hmm... interesting points. As a little aside, I've been taking Asian

History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

Any comments?

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:00:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Kurt? A beat?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960616091059.17960A-100000@voyager.cris.com>

Hmm...

This question has often puzzled me, too. I've listened to some of Kurt's

songs, and I can't stand them. I just don't have an appetite for rock

that heavy. However, a lot of people say he was like Kerouac in many

ways. Only, Kerouac didn't kill himself, and Kerouac wouldn't have

married Courtney Love...

puzzled,

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:08:24 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

> I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

> showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

> Mind, Beginners Mind." Maybe there is a state called the "Don't Know Mind" as

> opposed to, or complimented by, the "No Mind" state.

>

>

>

> JE NE SAIS PAS

>

> I dont know who I am

> I dont know what I want

> I dont know why I'm here

> I dont know who got here first

> I dont know what it all has to do with me

> I dont know why I dont make my bed

> I dont know why I keep losing my socks

> I dont know why my mom keeps calling me

> I dont know why I keep rolling that damn rock up the hill

> I dont know if I get enough sleep

> I dont know what it means when I fly in my dreams

> I dont know the appropriate life skills

> I dont know how it all works

> I dont know if I have any regrets

> I dont know how to not sweat the small shit

> I dont know how to hold my own with other guys

> I dont know how to do the relationship thing

> I dont know how to laugh

> I dont know how to cry

> I dont know why the harder I try the harder it gets

> I dont know why my cat prefers the carpet to the litter box

> I dont know if tomorrow ever comes of if it belongs to me

> I dont know if UFO's exist

> I dont know if professional wrestlers are faking it or not

> I dont know if Eddie Haskell is really Alice Cooper

> I dont know who wrote the book of love or if I even care

> I dont know if "Louie, Louie" is the Great Western Mantra

> I dont know if Elvis is dead or if Jim Morrison is alive

> and running guns in Honduras

> I dont know if you've heard the one about the Zen vacuum cleaner;

> it has no attachments

> I dont know why we die

> I dont know what time is

> I dont know if God plays dice

> I dont know if reincarnation really matters

> I dont know if meditation is the highest form of prayer

> I dont know if prayer is the highest form of song

> I dont know why Bob Dylan always sounds like its killing him to sing

> I dont know if a woman named "J" wrote the Bible

> I dont know why there are homeless children

> I dont know why most men are proud of the fact that their underpants

> are torn and frayed

> I dont know how to get rid of the smell of catpiss in my carpet

> I dont know why some people insist that the Holocaust never happened

> I dont know why evil men prosper and the good die young

> I dont know if God is a hairy thunderer or a cosmic elf named "Muffy"

> I dont know if we'll ever develop cold fusion

> I dont know if Shakespeare was gay

> I dont know if Beethoven was black

> I dont know J.R."Bob" Dobbs is the Messiah

> I dont know why O.J. walked

> I dont know why Jesus wept

> I dont know if I have anything to prove

> I dont know if I have anything to say

> I dont know why these things happen

> I dont know what the hell is going on

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Copyright 1996

>

> Paul McDonald

> 1187 East Broadway #3

> Louisville, KY 40204

> (502)583-8014

>

> Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

>

It took me 5 minutes to go through, but it sounds very very cool.

And Zen, even in an early stage of perfection, can be cool, can't it ?

But the heading isn't Zen-like at all. French in an English poem -

if it really is a poem - is sort of un-cool !

Jens

Jens Moellenhoff

Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

University of Munich, Germany

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

*** William S. Burroughs ***

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:16:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>Hmm... interesting points. As a little aside, I've been taking Asian

>History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

>

>Jonathan

>

I would define a religion as any way of thought having faith/revelation as

an epistimological (sp?) basis. There are some things in these ways of

thought that would involve faith, such as Buddhist believing that there is

no such thing as self (ego). I know a little about Taoism and Buddhism, and

Zen, but I am unable to comment on Confucianism. In my opinion, these three

are religions.

Conversely, I would define a way of thought that uses reason as its

epistimology as a philosophy. I'm sure I'll get some grief over my opinions,

but here they are.

Ed Hertzog

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:03:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: now that's cool

how about english in a german poem. is that cool or uncool? or what about

spanish in a norwegian poem? or what about chinese under a tahitian moon? or

what about a worm in a bottle of tequila?

yellow dog

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:36:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: goodbye farewell

Hello & farewell to all. Signing off AOL tonight. Just one more bill I

can't afford. Barely keeping the literary renaissance & White Fields Press

(not to mention my personal life) afloat. It was fun while it lasted & I wish

all of you The Best.

Ron Whitehead

P.S. List Provider please either sign me off or send info for me to do IT.

Thanks!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:22:33 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Kerouac & DT Suzuki

Rummaging through my library last night, I found 3 books mentioning

Jack Kerouac's visit with D.T.Suzuki, the man credited with

singlehandedly introducing Zen Buddhism to the West (or, more

specifically, to LasSalle, Illinois).

The works from which I shall quote are the following:

"How the Swans Came to the Lake: A Narrative History of Buddhism in

America" 3rd Edition, by Rick Fields

"Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac, the Beat Generation, and America" by

Dennis McNally

"D.T.Suzuki's Contribution to the West" essay by Larry A. Fader

contained in "A Zen Life: D.T.Suzuki Remembered" edited by Masao Abe

I begin with the Fields book, which gives the fullest account:

_The day "The Dharma Bums" was published, Kerouac, Ginsberg and Peter

Orlovsky were on their way to an elegant penthouse party in honor of

Kerouac's new novel, when Kerouac stepped into a phone booth and called

up D.T.Suzuki. Kerouac said he would like to stop by for a visit, and

Suzuki asked when he wanted to come by. "RIGHT NOW!" Kerouac yelled into

the receiver, and Suzuki said, "O.K." Kerouac, Ginsberg and Orlovsky all

trooped over to the borwnstone on West 94th that Suzuki shared with the

Okamuras.

"I rang Mr. Suzuki's door and he did not answer," Kerouac wrote in a

reminiscence published in the "Berkeley Bussei", the magazine of the

Berkeley Young Buddhist Association, in 1960,

-suddenly I decided to ring it three times, firmly and slowly, and then

he came - he was a small man coming slowly through an old house with

panelled wood walls and many books - he had long eyelashes, as everyone

knows, which put me in the mind of the saying in the Sutras that the

Dharma, like a bush, is slow to take root but once it has taken root it

grows huge and firm and can't be hauled up from the ground except by a

golden giant whose name is not Tathagata - anyway, Doctor Suzuki made us

some green tea, very thick and soupy - he had precisely what idea of

what place I should sit, and where my two other friends should sit, the

chairs already arranged - he himself sat behind a table and looked at us

silently, nodding - I said in a loud voice (because he had told us he

was a little deaf) "Why did Bodhidharma come from the West?" - He made

no reply - He said, "You three young men sit here quietly & write haikus

while I go make some green tea" - He brought us the green tea in cracked

old soupbowls of some sort - He told us not to forget about the tea -

when we left, he pushed us out the door but once we were out on the

sidewalk he began giggling at us and pointing his finger and saying

"Don't forget the tea!" - I said "I would like to spend the rest of my

life with you" - He held up his finger and said

"Sometime."_

Dennis McNally's Kerouac biography fills in a few holes:

_The afternoon of October 15, (1960)...Kerouac rang up the sage. When

Dr. Suzuki's secretary asked "When?" Jack shouted "Right now!" and the

three of them caught a cab...Their talk wandered into koans, and Jack

nervously showed the Roshi his own: "When the Buddha was about to speak

a horse spoke instead." Suzuki sighed that it was typically Western and

overcomplicated. "After all," the old man said, "the Buddha and the

horse had some kind of understanding there."....they...talked about old

Chinese prints and religion. In an embarassing excess, Jack volunteered

that he'd had samadhis (satori, bursts of enlightenment) that had lasted

up to half an hour, and lapsed into silence when Dr. Suzuki gently

remarked that a true samadhi had no time and all time. Impatient to get

to the Viking cocktails, Jack thought to leave, then indulged one of his

quicksilver bursts of enthusiasm and decided that Suzuki was his father.

He told the elder, "I would like to spend the rest of my life with you,

sir." Suzuki giggled and said, "Sometime," then came down to the steps

with them, waving goodbye with the comment, "Remember the green tea."_

Larry A. Fader includes in his essay a passage from a letter written to

him from Ginsberg dated 5/7/76:

(Ginsberg writes) _On the way to the publisher's party, Kerouac, myself

and Orlovsky visited D.T.Suzuki at his house in New York on a

spur-of-the-moment phone call, sat in his study, composed haikus on a

Sesshu print on his wall, and drank green tea with him that he prepared

- he saw us downstairs to bid adieux from his door opened on the front

stoop, waving goodbye, saying to us, "Don't forget the green tea."

(Fader writes) Suzuki believed that the Beat Generation...had

misunderstood his interpretation of Zen. "Spontaneity," wrote Suzuki,

"is not everything, it must be 'rooted'."_

I hope the list has enjoyed this. Posted comments and private e-mail are

welcome.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

P.S. Don't leave us, Ron W.!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:25:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: re What are these things?

Ed Hertzog wrote:

>I would define a religion as any way of thought having >faith/revelation as

an epistimological (sp?) basis.

<snip>

>Conversely, I would define a way of thought that uses reason >as its

epistimology as a philosophy.

Okay, as a rough measure, I can buy this distinction, however, I think the

inter-relationship between the two concepts is more complex and the divisions

will never be quite so clear-cut. For example, both religion and philosophy

strive to define the relationship between human consciousness and the greater

cosmos.

I can think of some works which are defined as philosophical which are not

necessarily derived entirely from "reason" - Nietszche's entire ouevre, for

example. Indeed, Nietszche was, in some senses, decidedly anti-rational!

OTOH, you have works like Thomas Aquinas' _Summa Thologica_, which contain a

good deal of classical logical argument, yet which are essentially religious

in nature.

I don't have an alternative formula for delineating the difference between

the two concepts, but maybe that's because I have trouble seeing the two as

all that different.

Anyone know of a list-serv that deals with philosophy _per se_ (before we

drift too far off-topic)?

Luther Jett

PS to Ron Whitehead - Sorry to see you go; maybe there's an independent ISP

out there in Kentucky with cheaper rates?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:08:55 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental II

(Sound effects: listen to Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band's song

"Beautiful Loser" while reading: "He wants his home and security; he wants

to live like a sailor at sea.")

Ron writes:

>You lived the way Kerouac & Co. did but recognized how

>destructive it was. Fine. Destructive for you Destructive for them. Perhaps.

>Does that negate Kerouac & Co. in any way?

Face it: On the Road was not written by a happy person, let alone Big Sur.

In my opinion, Kerouac succeeded in his writing and failed at his personal

life. But he was a magnificent failure, and I'm interested in the reasons

why he failed. (In fact, brilliant failures are often more interesting than

successes: Kerouac was more interesting than Snyder, but Snyder was more

successful and effective as a human being.)

>Perhaps from your own experience &

>point of view but where does that leave us leave you? What is truth? Do you

>know?

It's just my experience; which is all anybody can claim. Ironically, if I'd

been listening, I would have heard the same thing from my father 25 years

ago! That's one advantage of not burning oneself out: to live long enough

to realize that parent's aren't such unreasonable people; it's children who

make them behave like maniacs.

>We move forward by the aid of symbols & we change those symbols as we

>move forward. Of what real profit is it to us, to deprive life of all its

>dreams, of all its beautiful mysticism and of all its lies (thank you K.H.)?

Whoa, now hold on thar... What deprived Jack's life of all its dreams, its

beautiful mysticism? I suspect alcoholism. Jack preferred to submerge his

problems in drink, rather than solve them. In general, it's easier to

substitute a defense mechanism (alcohol is one) for personal growth:

learning to deal effectively with life's problems.

>What do you mean What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him.

Did he acheive the goals he set for himself? Did he consider himself a

success? Would he have set himself up as a role model? I think he would

have been horrified at the idea of people emulating him.

>With

>suffering comes humility, and with it, in the end wisdom (thank you J.S.).

Not always!

>Kerouac suffered much. He caused suffering (i.e. his daughter Jan). But what

>he did in his life worked for him in as many ways as it didn't.

Please be specific.

>His creative

>work is some of the best in the history of world literature (despite highbrow

>academic criticism).

Your opinion. My opinion: good as his writing is, he was capable of better.

>Pain and joy, failure and succes are different sides of

>same coin called human nature human being. To say this is good that is bad

>you succeeded because of this you failed because of that is reductive & does

>not allow full emotional mental physical spiritual depth of being human. We

>learn to walk but fall time & time again.

My point is that when Jack fell, he didn't learn to walk, he'd get drunk!

>To fail is to live to be human.

Success is nice too; and to be fully human we need people to whom we are

important, we need goals and we need a direction in our lives (often in the

form of work.)

>Breathe deep of failure of success of life.

>Yes Kerouac's life was stressful. And through that stress look at the

>beautiful gems he created gifts he gave to us which help us endure the pain

>the stress the suffering inherent in life.

So do we disagree? All I'm saying is he was a lovable failure, but I'm sure

as hell glad I never had to depend on him!

>Who knows what

>lessons a human being learns by being lazy, passive, self-destructive,

>nihilist, alcoholic, drug abuser? tolerance may be the greatest love.

I'm not intolerant: I wouldn't have had him arrested; in fact arresting and

jailing Cassady was a very destructive and hypocritical thing to do. BUT...

I do want to point out there are better ways to live a life. As Seger says:

We just don't need it all.

Write me in 20 years and let me know if your thinking has changed!

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:04:07 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 17, 1996 20:54:30, 'Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>'

wrote:

>we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

The first is probably more a philosophy or collection of sayings from Lao

Tsu in the Tao Te Ching, an ancient Chinese text. Buddhism and

Confucianism are most certainly religions, both of which have large

followings and are measured in millennia. Zen or Zen Buddhism is a small

sect or offshoot of Buddhism and hence must also be considered a religion.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:20:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Dear Phil,

I think that the following is important and I would like you to put

it on the beat-list for me since I have some many problems to get it

through. I would really appreciate if you can do it for me. Merci pour ta

gentillesse! Jean

Hi everyone,

I found something that might interest a lot of you. A

journalist form "La Presse" newspaper in Montreal found that some

unpublished writing in French form Kerouac were exsisting form John

Sampas collection. Achmy Halley, the journalist from "La Presse",

knew about this information by Roger Brunelle, a Lowell citizen

who knows Kerouac's life from his days in Lowell. The text he found is

titled:"La nuit est ma femme" (The night is my wife) and was written

by Kerouac during the period he was writing "On the Road".

Now the marvelous thing is that this text was published in the June 1996

issue of the NRF (Nouvelle Revue Francaise)-Gallimard magazine.

This is of course a magazine written in French from France. I am a

francophone living in Montreal and it seems that the magazine will be available

July 10 th. As soon as I find it, I will let people know of what I think of

it.

>From Halley's point of view, the text is dealing with Jack's writter

vocation. Here's some line of the text:

"J'ai revez trop longtemps que j'etais un grand ecrivain.

J'appri ca dans les livres. Y avait un temps que je

pensais chaque mot que j'ecrirai etait immortelle.

J'embarqua ca avec un gros coeur romantique."

Here is my personnal translation (Don't forget that I am Francophone!)

"I dreamt too long that I was a great writer.

I learned that in books. There was a time that

I thought every words I was to write were immortal.

I took that with a big romantic heart."

If some of you would more interested in that text or in

the newspaper article from "La Presse", just e-mail me.

Jean

torso@generation.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:58:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer writes:

>

>...I've been taking Asian

>History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

>

My own rough understanding:

Western categories such as "religion" and "god" don't work very well with

Eastern religions. In the west, the idea is to please the supreme being,

God, by living a moral life, avoiding sin. Eastern religions, when we

separate out the mythology, aim at acheiving what John Blofeld calls a

supreme state of being: the cultivation of immortality. Practices vary,

but include meditation, breathing exercises, and even sexual yogas

("Yabyum," which Confucians would find horrifying:

they are the puritans of the east.)

In Theravada Buddhism, the supreme state (Nirvana, which is not the same

as nothing) is the goal. Mahayana buddhists put off Nirvana to stay

here and work for the salvation of all beings. Taoism is an independent

Chinese tradition that influenced Buddhism on its way to Japan. And Zen is

simply Japanese Buddhism. Taoism aims at cultivation of the Way, or Tao.

Zen is (fundamentally) a set of breathing exercises.

The following is a quote from Blofeld's book:

"The Tao is unknowable, vast, eternal. As undifferentiated void, pure

spirit it is the mother of the cosmos; as non-void it is the container, the

sustainer and, in a a sense, the being of the myriad objects, permeating

all. As the goal of existence, it is the Way of Heaven, of Earth, of Man.

No being, it is the source of Being. It is not conscious of activity, has

no purpose, seeks no rewards or praise, yet performs all things to

perfection." The Road to Immortality; p. 2; Shambala 1978

Lately, I've been thinking that "tao" is a more useful concept than "reality."

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:37:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kurt? A beat?

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

In a message dated 96-06-18 00:08:01 EDT, Jonathan Kratter writes:

>Kerouac didn't kill himself

Oh really?

And what is up with all this asian religion stuff on the Beat List? If

there's a connection, may we continue to explore the connection. Beyond

that, i'm sure that there's a Zenlist or a BigDaddyBuddhaList out there

somewhere, eh?

miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:29:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Goodbye..

Hello all my fellow angelheaded hipsters,

The time has come when we must part company for the summer as I

sojourn to Maine to cultivate right-mindfulness and become more beatific

for the summer before returning to the dreary reality that is

highschool. This will be the final year that I flee northward to

beautiful Washington, Maine.

However, during this time, I will not have access to a computer

such that I can maintain membership on a list like this. However, if you

have any personal communication, you can still e-mail me at this address

and the mail will be forwarded to me at my camp.

Thus, after this Friday, I will be unsubscribing from this list.

But not until Friday.

Before I go, I have several parting comments.

The first is on an old, old thread, that is, whether Bob Dylan

was a beat. I had a sudden epiphany while listening to "Tom Thumb's

Blues." I don't have a set of lyrics, but listen and you'll hear:

"When you're down in Juarez in the rain and it's easter time too,

and your gravity fails and negativity don't pull you through

don't put on any airs when you're down on Rue Morgue avenue

there some hungry women there they'll really make a man out of you..."

and

"I started out on burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff

all my friends said they'd stand by me when the game got rough"

and

"I'm going back to New York city, I do believe I've had enough."

Maybe I'm viewing the facts to fit the hypothesis, but that sure

sounds a lot like the Mexico segement of On The Road. Also, starting on

burgundy but soon hitting the harder stuff may be an allusion to Jack's

drinking problem.

That's my first point. Secondly, I'd like to thank everyone for

their responses on the difference between religion and philosophy and

Buddhism, etc... and apologize to everyone for wasting beat list space

with buddhist things.

Eternally Dreaming,

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:36:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lori Fenn <lyf1305@OMEGA.UTA.EDU>

Subject: Unsuscribe

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@UTARLVM1.UTA.EDU>

Unsuscribe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:56:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beats, Buddhism, Beagles and Lox

>And what is up with all this asian religion stuff on the Beat >List? If

there's a connection, may we continue to explore the >connection.

I believe this thread emerged from an enquiry into the relationship of the

Beats to Buddhism - Particularly Kerouac (this is an ongoing theme), but also

Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, et al. Someone asked a quite legitimate question,

seeking clarification, and a number of people kindly responded. I didn't

think it irrelevant at all.

Has a dog Buddha nature?

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:16:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Is Yr Dog Beat??

Of course--

How dare you even ask the question--

All beings in the "quivering wheel of meat conception" bear Buddha nature--

It's amazing to me how anyone can consider discussion of Buddhism/Beatitude

irrelevant.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:22:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jack Black book

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

Last autumn I posted to the list a request for information about Jack Black's

_You Can't Win_. I have been looking for it ever since (doggedly resisting

all offers of a new paperback for $20).

Some fine gentleman suggested trying to get ahold of a copy through

InterLibrary Loan (ILL). I tried that a month ago, and voila! I received a

copy, on loan, yesterday,from a small private college library in South

Carolina.

It's a hardcover printing from 1926 (book first published 1925). Let me tell

you, I've just peeked inside, but apparently this is the real thing and

worthwhile.

Just letting you know that the book is available, and for less than $20 !

I love it when a plan comes together.

William Miller.

PS thanks to the fellow in (Maine, was it?) who suggested ILL. Try it,

beatfans. It works!

PPS At least two of you requested detailed information on the new paperback

from BiP, some publisher in Hawaii. Did either/any of you order it? If so,

what does it look like?

--WAA17360.835238241/emout13.mail.aol.com--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:26:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Corso article

The London Review of Books (6 June issue) carries a fascinating article by

Iain Sinclair about a visit to NYC to interview Gregory Corso for a BBC

Radio program about the Beats. Talks about how much of his work is

unpublished, how he never really fitted in with the 'triplicity' (his word)

of JK&WB&AG. Some nice quotes (not enough to violate copyright)...

"He can't talk sitting down. He has to pace the length of the room, like a

cell ...His memory tapes are on a loop ...Grey hair to the shoulder,

gargoyle cherub ...if anyone should be in the Nike ads, it's Gregory. He's

the only pensioned Beat still using well-hiked trainers. Look at the Annie

Leibovitz spread in Vanity Fair, a row of brilliantly varnished hoofs - and

Corso sockless in scuffed white casuals."

and later

"corso uses a number of similes drawn from native American life, an

unconcious reonnection with Snyder's long-term concerns. The Beats, he

implies, are the Redskins of America: noble savages doomed in all they

attempt. Fossils of better times. Or Hollywood B-feature braves played by

Jews. In his fine collection Elegiac Feelings American, he wrote of Kerouac,

his identification with the land, and also offered a 'Spontaneous Requiem

for the American Indian'. A 'hard nickel faced' Geronimo skidding into a

displaced, leather-jacket motorcyclist 'smoking/a cigarette in a fishy

corner in the night."

It's a good article. I think Borders/B&N/good independents carry LRB, and a

fair number of libraries take it too...

Nick W-W

**************************************************************************

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv (http://www.usa4.com/chipub/)

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

***Publishing is 90% inspiration and the other half is just hard work

(with apologies to Yogi Berra)***

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:29:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Unsubscribe..

Hi everyone...

Unfortunately, as I have said before, I must away to scenic Maine...

and, it is Friday...

so, will someone unsubscribe me from the list, please?

Thank you kindly, I'll see you all in September,

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:48:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: LitKicks in Wired

Hey, I saw the new Wired. It had a picture of Levi Asher's Kerouac stamp

and a little about the litkicks site.

And they mentioned me too in a way.

They gave the url for LitKicks and talked about what can be seen there.

They said you can listen to Kerouac reading. Well, that actually is my

site, not LitKicks, but Levi graciously linked to it in the Kerouac section

of LitKicks. I guess these Wired guys can't even tell one site from another.

And I must say there is another Kerouac reading site with readings from Mex

City Blues and SF Blues. I don't remember the name of the guy who runs it

or its URL. You can get to it through my kerouac speaks site or through

Levi's LitKicks in the kerouac section.

I assume everyone here knows this but,

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/kerouacspeaks/kerouacspeaks.html

Those are them

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:27:43 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Corso article

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 21, 1996 10:26:19, 'Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>' wrote:

>In his fine collection Elegiac Feelings American, he wrote of Kerouac,

One of the few books that made it through the nuthouse and came out the

other side with me intact (both of us...). I am with you in Springfield

and Wichita Falls State...

--

s. mark johnson

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:55:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Emily L. User." <Queen79099@AOL.COM>

Subject: The french subject

It would be simply fabulous if you could send the french Kerouac. I really

have nothing else to say, so here's my e-mail address:

Queen79099@aol.com

otherwise known as...

emily in Palo Alto, CA

thanks a lot!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:59:33 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Pizzo <drjoey@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Unsubscribe

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

Joey

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:25:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

SIGN-OFF BEAT-L

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:03:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Is Yr Dog Beat??

The Lowes write:

"Of course--

How dare you even ask the question--

All beings in the "quivering wheel of meat conception" bear Buddha nature--

It's amazing to me how anyone can consider discussion of Buddhism/Beatitude

irrelevant."

-0--------------------------------------

That's right. I'm the one that first questioned the string of Asian religion

notes to the list. I NEVER said that it was irrelevant, just that there

ought to be a Zen list (I was thinking that for entries with titles such as

"Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", a Zen list would be perfect !!!). No offense

take, please.

Never mind. It was just a silly note, lowes.

On the dogs/beat note, check out what Bill had to say in _The Cat Inside_

about domesticated dogs. It's a hoot.

William Miller

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------

"We're not all here for Kerouac, you know." -- The WiseCracker

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 00:13:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Lenore Kandel

Does anyone know the current status and whereabouts of Lenore

Kandel? She was a poet of the S. F. Beat circle in the early '60s, author

of The Love Book, character (Ramona Schwartz ) based on her in

Kerouac's Big Sur.

Thanks, Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:28:55 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gene Adam <alaska@HK.SUPER.NET>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB61C8.BD0FBFA0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It might be right to say about Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, including =

Zen, that they all can have different characteristics depending upon who =

is following them and where. Wouldn't it be accurate to say of these =

philosophies &/or religions that (speaking generally) they can exist on =

several or many social planes, across various countries and cultures, =

and can be anything from austere visions of life coupled with similarly =

austere practices, to ways of finding out from "the gods" by way of a =

temple priest, whether or not one should buy 1000 shares of Cathay =

Pacific or get married this year...... =20

Gene Adam

Hong Kong

----------

From: s. mark johnson[SMTP:smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM]

Sent: Wednesday, 19 June 1996 9:04

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

Subject: Re: What are these things?

On Jun 17, 1996 20:54:30, 'Jonathan Kratter =

<jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>'

wrote:

>we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really =

were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

The first is probably more a philosophy or collection of sayings from =

Lao

Tsu in the Tao Te Ching, an ancient Chinese text. Buddhism and

Confucianism are most certainly religions, both of which have large

followings and are measured in millennia. Zen or Zen Buddhism is a =

small

sect or offshoot of Buddhism and hence must also be considered a =

religion.

Mark J

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=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 14:18:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: zen

In a 1959 essay entitled "The Square Roots of Zen," Nancy Wilson Ross

says, "Zen, although considered a religion by its followers, has no sacred

scriptures whose words are law; no fixed canan; no rigid dogma; no Saviour

or Divine Being on whose favor or through whose intercession one's

eventual salvation is predicated. The absence of attributes common to all

other religious systems lends Zen a certain air of freedom which many

modern people obviously find attractive." (_Horizon_ 1.6 (July 1959):

72).

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:06:17 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Beatific Dogs and Burroughs: THE CAT INSIDE

> On the dogs/beat note, check out what Bill had to say in _The Cat Inside_

> about domesticated dogs. It's a hoot.

>

> William Miller

>

The Cat Inside is great, concerning dogs AND cats. I'm

wondering if the US edition of The Cat Inside is as short as the

German edition I own. So could anyone give me the information, how

many of these wonderful prose sketches are contained within the US

edition ?

Jens Moellenhoff

Email:

jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

jmoellen@sun1.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

Internet:

http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

University of Munich, Germany

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

*** William S. Burroughs ***

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:02:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

Subject: JK poetry contest..

Does any one know of the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize?? I was wondering if

anyone had any information on the contest.. If you do please e-mail me at

Derangel@aol.com It would be greatly appreciated.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:10:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: JK poetry contest..

In-Reply-To: <960625190227_339473695@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Darius A.

Yasiejko" at Jun 25, 96 07:02:28 pm

> Does any one know of the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize?? I was wondering if

> anyone had any information on the contest.. If you do please e-mail me at

> Derangel@aol.com It would be greatly appreciated.

I forgot to put this info into my Beat News page (I saw the info a

while ago) but if somebody posts it here, I'll put it there.

I'm pretty sure it's the folks in Lowell (Mark Hemenway, are you there?)

who are running it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ran into the devil, babe, he loaned me twenty bills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:26:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: JK Poetry Contest..

Hi Folks...

Here are the guidelines for the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. Everything

you need to know is here, but if you have any questions, let me know.

Levi, I will send you a word 6.0 version separately.

Thanks. Don't forget the 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival

3-6 October.

**********

8th ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Experienced and emerging writers are invited to submit written works in

competition for the 8th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. This Prize

will consist of a $500 honorarium and an invitation to present the prize

winning manuscript at a public reading during the 9th Annual Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! Festival in Lowell, MA from 3 through 6 October 1996.

SUBMISSIONS MUST MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:

1. All works must be in English and not previously published.

2. Submissions will be accepted between 1 April 1996 and 1 August

1996. Entries postmarked before 1 April 1996 and after 1 August 1996 will

not be accepted. The deadline for all entries is 1 August 1996.

3. The author's name must not appear anywhere on the manuscript.

4. Submissions must be accompanied by a 3x5 index card containing the

author's name, address, telephone number and manuscript title.

5. We are unable to return any manuscripts. Authors will retain all

rights and privileges to their work including full copyright protection.

6. An entry fee of $5.00 must accompany each submission. Please make

checks payable to: LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC!

8. Submissions must meet the following format requirements:

FICTION:

a. Submit one, typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a novel; or

a maximum of three (3) short stories with a combined length of thirty

pages or less.

POETRY:

a. Submit one typed copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed eight (8) poems with a combined length of 15

pages or less. No entry may exceed fifteen (15) pages.

NON-FICTION:

a. Submit one typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. Your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a volume,

or a maximum of three (3) essays with a combined length of thirty (30)

pages or less.

9. Submit all manuscripts to:

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize

P.O. Box 8788

Lowell, MA 01853-8788

10. Authors will receive notification of the prize winner by September 15,

1996.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!, Inc (a non-profit organization), The Estate of Jack and Stella

Kerouac, Middlesex Community College, and the University of Massachusetts

at Lowell.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 11:55:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:06:17 -0400 JENS MOELLENHOFF

<JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> wrote:

> The Cat Inside is great, concerning dogs AND cats. I'm

> wondering if the US edition of The Cat Inside is as short as the

> German edition I own. So could anyone give me the information, how

> many of these wonderful prose sketches are contained within the US

> edition ?

I have the first edition Viking Penguin from 1992 and there's a grand

total of 94 pages of those wonderful little prose sketches. I have also

had the priviledge of seeing one of the VERY first, limited edition

copies from Grenfell Press in 1986. Only 133 copies were made and my

university library has one in the rare book collection. It's No. 99

(Canadian University, greatest hockey player ever, co-incidence? I think

not. (One for all you numerologists out there ;)) and signed by Burroughs

and Gysin. There is actually an even more limited edition, namely the

last 20 or so of the 133, which have some kind of gold stitching or

something like that.

The Grenfell _Cat Inside_ was a very large book, about a foot wide and two

feet tall (somewher in that neighbourhood anyway) made out of cloth

paper, and each page appeared to be torn individually as opposed to cut.

There were many more Gysin illustrations than appear in the Viking

edition. All of the illustrations are similar to the one on the cover of

the Viking - ink smears with feline features.

Picking out the cat from the blotch is very much akin to how Burroughs

paints now. Well, not how he paints, but how he values his paintings. If

he can see something, or find a face or a person from a dream, or a

character in his writing within the seemingly random streaks of paint,

then it is a successful painting, otherwise, he discards it and tries again.

To see more on Burroughs's ideas about painting see _Painting and Guns_

from Hanuman Books.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:36:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Was Jack self destructive?

Please don't kill the messenger just give your opinion. Phil

I you feel Jack was self destructive what caused him to feel that way.

Did he have a reason to drink himself to death? Can there ever be a reason

for that?

1 Strict French Catholic roots fighting internal homoerotic desires or just

strong sexual desires.Tormented by what's right and wrong

2 rejected over and over by mainstream publishers piss poor reviews constant

rejection (even by friends) when he knows he is a genius.

3 Felt like he didn't do enough in the war effort,Sammy and John two of his

closest friends are killed, he served but not up to par with what his

friends have seen, Billy a tail gunner,Tony OSS officer,Joe photographer on

bombing runs

4 Gerard dead, Father dead, Caroline dead ,Neal dead,others dead

5 Fill in the blank- give some input

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:52:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Was Jack self destructive?

Some scholars suggest that Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome- caused by

Gerard's death, his father's death and other things are one of the root

causes of Jack's drinking.

Mark hemenway

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:57:00 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Was Jack self destructive?

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:36:14 -0400 from <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:36:14 -0400 Phil Chaput said:

>Please don't kill the messenger just give your opinion. Phil

>

>I you feel Jack was self destructive what caused him to feel that way.

>Did he have a reason to drink himself to death? Can there ever be a reason

>for that?

>

>

>1 Strict French Catholic roots fighting internal homoerotic desires or just

>strong sexual desires.Tormented by what's right and wrong

>

>2 rejected over and over by mainstream publishers piss poor reviews constant

>rejection (even by friends) when he knows he is a genius.

>

>3 Felt like he didn't do enough in the war effort,Sammy and John two of his

>closest friends are killed, he served but not up to par with what his

>friends have seen, Billy a tail gunner,Tony OSS officer,Joe photographer on

>bombing runs

>

>4 Gerard dead, Father dead, Caroline dead ,Neal dead,others dead

>

>5 Fill in the blank- give some input

Yea, he was in physical and emotional pain and the booze which helped ease that

pain at first later made it even worse. But he was addicted -- couldn't live

with it and couldn't live without it.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:31:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: French version of _The Job_

I recently found in my University library a copy of the original French

edition of Daniel Odier's interviews with Burroughs (_Entretiens avec

William Burroughs_ Paris: Editions Pierre Belfond, 1969) that was later

issued in English as _The Job_. I discovered that, while the questions

were the same, WSB's answers were often very different in the French than

what they were in the English. I haven't gone thru it all yet, but some

of the differences are interesting:

<< Q: You wrote: "Writing is fifty years behind painting." How can the gap

be closed?

[from _Entretiens avec William Burroughs_ p.18]

A: I did not write that, it was Brion Gysin, a painter. He meant that

techniques of montage had already been used in painting and that

painting has a much clearer idea of the nature of its mediums and of the

ways in which they can be used. I think the split between writing and

painting will remain until writers get some idea of what words are. For

the moment, they have no idea. There exists a set of very clearly

formulated theories on the nature of color. As Brion Gysin said, "Color is

a comet's tail." Words are certainly associated with sound like color is

associated with light. But the precise association, what words are, is an

unresolved question. I regret that writers do not know what their means

are, and until they know this, they will hardly be able to catch up with

painting.

[from _The Job_ (Penguin ed.) p.27-8]

A: I did not write that. Mr. Brion Gysin who is both painter and writer

wrote "writing is fifty years behind painting." Why this gap? Because the

painter can touch and handle his medium and the writer cannot. The

writer does not yet know what words are. He deals only with

abstractions from the source point of words. The painter's ability to

touch and handle his medium led to montage techniques sixty years

ago. It is to be hoped that the extension of cut-up techniques will lead to

more precise verbal experiments closing this gap and giving a whole

new dimension to writing. These techniques can show the writer what

words are and put him in tactile communication with his medium. This

in turn could lead to a precise science of words and show how certain

word combinations produce certain effects on the human nervous

system. >>

He seems much more certain in the latter answer than in the former about

the role of the cut-up method....I suspect his greater assurance comes

from the introduction of his "word as a virus" theory, which (at least as

far as I've read) seems absent in the earlier French. Does anyone know

exactly when WSB first came up with the word-as-virus idea? Sometime

around 1970 perhaps? And did he get any impetus for this theory from his

study of Scientology? (The "reactive mind," etc.)

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"...the water from the stream, which was

cold and pure like snow and the crystal-

lidded eyes of heaven."

***

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:53:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: New Burroughs books?

I see the latest edition of Books in Print lists two WSB books as

forthcoming.

--What's apparently a second volume of letters, due out next summer

--A book called _Evil River_.

The only place in WSB's work I remember seeing the phrase "evil river" in

in _The Cat Inside_ p. 49: "I don't think anyone could write a completely

honest autobiography. I am sure no one could bear to read it: *My Past

Was an Evil River.*" So is this book some sort of autobiography? Or is it

about the Duad perhaps? Anyone have any further info on these books?

Also, Victor Bockris' _With William Burroughs: A Report from the Bunker_

is supposedly going to be reissued....

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"...inky blue hues like that apocalyptic-

end-of-the-world blue light, the light of

subterranean stars, we've all seen in

tunnels especially subway tunnels--"

***

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:57:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beatific Dogs and Burroughs: THE CAT INSIDE

In a message dated 96-06-25 11:37:01 EDT, Jens wrote:

>The Cat Inside is great, concerning dogs AND cats. I'm

>wondering if the US edition of The Cat Inside is as short as the

>German edition I own. So could anyone give me the information, how

>many of these wonderful prose sketches are contained within the US

>edition ?

>

>

>Jens Moellenhoff

>

>Email:

>jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

>jmoellen@sun1.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

>

>Internet:

>http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

>

>University of Munich, Germany

>

>*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

>*** William S. Burroughs ***

>

>

===========================================================

A quick glance at my copy (a very slim hardback) --

94 pages, apparently 94 "prose sketches".

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:57:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Libraries and Beat Books

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

On a slightly different note, _The Cat Inside_ is the longest surviving

Burroughs book in our public library. (A close second is _The Third

Mind_...) It is surviving theft, I mean to say. A quick glance through the

catalog reveals dozens of titles by Burroughs and Kerouac which are ClmsLst

(Claims Lost) or Missing or ClmsRtd (Claims Returned). I'm postulating that

_TCI_ has survived so long because it's categorized as a Biography, away from

the Fiction under F BUR... (and away from browsers who don't locate books by

author in the catalog)

Stealing from libraries. I think they should be shot. Yasss. Heh heh.

I think it's a shame, and I wonder sometimes what sort of company i have in

Beat fans. (not you fine folks on the list, of course, but the ones who

visit my library...)

I found out about Burroughs, and had my interest in him stoked considerably,

by finding and reading _Literary Outlaw_. If it had not been on the shelf at

the library, I'd still be missing out on this great material....

Has anyone else noticed this situation about Beat Books in Libraries ?

Do any of you work in libraries?

William Miller

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:15:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Libraries and Beat Books

at our local library here, almost all of Kerouac's books have been stolen - On

the Road, etc. Strangely, though Dr. Sax remains... perhaps it isn't

"mainstream" or well known enough to steal...?

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:30:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Libraries and Beat Books

Yes, I work in a college library and friends have asked me if I could rip off

some of the books in our beat collection (mostly Burroughs). I said no, of

course. Though I don't consider myself any kind of role model for morality, one

of the few things I consider sacred are the books in a library.

I am sure it is easy for a few people to justify stealing beat books from a

library, claiming poverty or thinking it is the cool thing to, or even what the

Beats would do themselves (well, maybe Corso would). But yeah, a theft could

prevent any young (or old) kid from that first eye awakening or satori

sensation of experiencing these writers for the first time. I too, remember

having those experiences of discovery with different writers thanks to a

library. So I have to agree, in many cases the Beats are the popular ones to be

stolen. But for some strange reason, Abbie Hoffman's STEAL HIS BOOK, remains on

the shelf.

Remember too, that books go out of print and cannot always be easily replaced.

So don't steal! Bad karma, like kicking a puppy!

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:22:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <TAYLORJB@VUCTRVAX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Libraries and Beat Books

In-Reply-To: <960628065718_423511503@emout10.mail.aol.com>

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, William Miller wrote:

> On a slightly different note, _The Cat Inside_ is the longest surviving

> Burroughs book in our public library. (A close second is _The Third

> Mind_...) It is surviving theft, I mean to say.

>

> Stealing from libraries. I think they should be shot. Yasss. Heh heh.

>

> Has anyone else noticed this situation about Beat Books in Libraries ?

>

> Do any of you work in libraries?

I work in a university library, which is probably a lot different from a

public library, since we have the power to withhold important

things--like degress--from patrons who don't pay (cost of book+$15 late

fee+$30 processing fee) for their lost library

books. So theft is not much of a problem here. I don't think we've lost a

single Burroughs, Kerouac, or even Bukowski book in several years.

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"'In the beginning was the Word and the

Word *was* God.' And what does that make

us? Ventriloquist's dummies."

***

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:22:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Libraries and Beat Books

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:22:43 -0400 Jeff Taylor

<TAYLORJB%VUCTRVAX.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca> wrote:

> I work in a university library, which is probably a lot different from a

> public library, since we have the power to withhold important

> things--like degress--from patrons who don't pay (cost of book+$15 late

> fee+$30 processing fee) for their lost library

> books. So theft is not much of a problem here. I don't think we've lost a

> single Burroughs, Kerouac, or even Bukowski book in several years.

The situation is not much different at our university library. All the

Burroughs books except for Nova Express and Naked Lunch have been

scoffed. If our library actually had all the books that are listed in the

stacks it would be a great resource. Unfortunately anything of interest

that isn't protected by the sanctity of our rare book collection has been

stolen. Nothing is more annoying than when I see something like _Time_

from C-Press 1965 listed, feel the elation at finding something so rare,

and then discover when I look up the availablility that it is in regualar

circulation, and therefore missing. I actually discusse this very same

despicable situation off the list with another list member a while back.

Every time I think of it a little roiling pit of rage stirs in my

stomach, "Aaarrrrgggghhh!"

Sorry, have to calm down here. Anyhow, if it weren't for library thieves

The University of Waterloo library would have copies of _the book of

breeething_, _Time_, _The Third Mind_, _Cobble Stone Gardens_, _Ah Pook

Is Here_ and _White Subway_; a very respectable collection of small

press, limited edition books. Thankfully someone had the insight when it

was needed to put _APO-33_, _Dead Star_, _Darazt: An Anthology_, a first

edition _The Cat Inside_, and a first edition _the book of breeething_

(the one mentioned above was the Blue Wind reprint) in to the Rare Book

Collection.

So, yes, it is awful that people steal books from libraries, although I

think part of the reason the Beats are so often lifted is that they have

always been identified with subversive elements of society, and what could

be more subversive than stealing books from a Government sponsored

institution, Yee-haa stick it to the Man! ;-) ;-) (heavy dose of sarcasm)

I'm going to go do something relaxing before I get all upset at the

deplorable number of Burroughs books missing from our library...

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:49:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Satori In Paris <fwd>

Hey everybody, a list-member in distress couldn't get the message

through, so she asked me to post it:

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:37:47 -0400 Shar Fitzpatrick

<sfitzpat@pepps.pepperdine.de> wrote:

> Hello all. I need your assistance. I am going to Paris tonight at

> midnight which is 3 in LA, 4 in AZ, 5 in TX, and 6 in NY in the

> afternoon/evening. I wanted to visit all the places/churches JK went

> when he tried to find out his ancestry in Satori in Paris. I checked

all

> the wed sites and only a few listed this particular book, which is

great

> although it was later. Anyway, if you could help me...Thanks, Shar

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:27:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Re: New Burroughs books?

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960628054308.539707480A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

I read the Bockris book several months ago. It was very, very good.

D.

>

> Also, Victor Bockris' _With William Burroughs: A Report from the Bunker_

> is supposedly going to be reissued....

>

> ***

> Jeff Taylor

> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

> "...inky blue hues like that apocalyptic-

> end-of-the-world blue light, the light of

> subterranean stars, we've all seen in

> tunnels especially subway tunnels--"

> ***

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:02:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Libraries and Beat Books

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:22:24 -0400 from

<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Putting books in special collections is no guarantee that they won['t be stolen

either. Back in 1972, when I was writing my master's thesis on Kerouac, Excer

pts From Visions of Cody had been stolen from special collections at Columbia,

Harvard & U of Pennsylvania. Go figure!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:37:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Libraries and theft

I work for the Louisville Free Public Library and theft is a sad fact of life

that, unfortunately now extends to videos and audio tapes, the Kerouac tapes

in particular. We have restocked the Penguin Editions of Kerouac's books, but

a lot of our Ginsberg material, like the "Howl" drafts with notes, is long

gone.

We have had a lot of problems in Louisville trying to convince the community

about the need for a library. Our funding is woefully inadequete and a tax

referendum for the library was voted down. There is also an element that

chooses to not only steal but to vandalize. A number of books having to do

with AIDS, homosexuality and President Clinton have been stolen, had

chapters torn out, or, in the case of the President, had all kinds of

inappropriate remarks about his wife inked in the paragraphs (we did however,

catch this guy). An ultra-right fundamentalist group has even tried to link

us to NAMBLA and the persecution of Christians. This group does not seem to be

sophisticated enough to even know about the Beats, however. They always seem

to target children's books and claim that we are under Satan's influence.

Paul

p.s. Prozac spelled backwards is Ukranian for Lucifer.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:54:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Libraries and theft

Here is a related phenonemon that I encountered way too many times.

You spend a lot of time going through indexes or resources and find

articles or book reviews in old magazines. You go find the old issue on

the stacks open to the page where it should be and the article about

kerouac is torn out. Just ripped out.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:34:34 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: beep <MULBPOLL@MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Libraries and theft

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:54:18 -0700 from

<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

I've worked at university libraries for eight years now and have

encountered some of the most creative ways to steal books, but

there's one method I've learned to just laugh at (then take the

book back): a patron thinks the security system is linked to the

barcode, rips the barcode out, and proceeds through the front door

as if nothing's wrong. The shock on their face when the alarm goes

off is funny enough, but when they try to *lie* their way through

("I didn't know it was in my backpack...oh, I meant to check that

out...") is the best as the guard opens the book and finds a ripped

backcover where the barcode used to reside.

I think someone said this earlier, but it bears repeating: if only

people realized they're hurting themselves when they do this (raising

taxes, tuition, fees, to replace the books)!!

Just my 2 cents worth. I shall return to lurkdom now.

beep

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:48:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ben Moore <ARoadToad@AOL.COM>

Subject: Cassavetes' Shadows

This posting is sightly off-topic, but thought it might be of interest to

some.

I just found Cassavetes' Shadows at my video store. Apparently they have

finally released it on video this year. Although not really a beat film, it

was filmed in 1959 from a script "improvised" by Cassavetes and presents a

glimpse of life among the younger generation in New York at that time.

It's his first film, crude, New York school style filmmaking, but gave me a

genuine feel for the times.

Ben Moore

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:23:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassavetes' Shadows

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <960630184839_344590151@emout12.mail.aol.com>

I saw the film, Shadows, when it first came out. I was in my senior year

at high school, and spent a lot of time after school hanging out at a

nearby coffee house, which was the cool thing to do for the

acting/theater crowd at my high school. The anticipation for this film

was great, and we all thought it was fantastic! Being on the west coast

and Cassavetes' film being about the east coast, well, we thought the

people in New York were the greatest thing going!

Dolores

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Ben Moore wrote:

> This posting is sightly off-topic, but thought it might be of interest to

> some.

>

> I just found Cassavetes' Shadows at my video store. Apparently they have

> finally released it on video this year. Although not really a beat film, it

> was filmed in 1959 from a script "improvised" by Cassavetes and presents a

> glimpse of life among the younger generation in New York at that time.

>

> It's his first film, crude, New York school style filmmaking, but gave me a

> genuine feel for the times.

>

> Ben Moore

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:07:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Libraries and theft

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

I'm glad (or perhaps sad) that "beat books and libraries" touched a nerve.

Apparently the beats are widely stolen. What's truly tragic about library

book theft, especially in the case of the beat authors, is that the books are

FREE OF CHARGE to begin with, if the person would only return the books.

It's not like the man is trying to stick it to these poor "beatnik" kids.

They can check them out FOR FREE. Their plea of poverty is pitiful,

ignorant, and cowardly.

Unfortunately, beat books can be stolen WITHOUT being checked out, that's the

deal at college libraries I suppose. (half of the "gone" books at our public

library are "missing", the others are "claimed lost" or "claimed returned").

i'm almost through with Jack Black's _You Can't Win_, and it's well

worthwhile. He uses the phrase "On the Road" early on to describe his

wandering down-and-out ways (and this book, of course, precedes JK), and I've

now read about the original Johnson Family and Salt Chunk Mary (I guess Bill

just borrowed them....). It's quite a trip.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:31:00 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: bozokitty <jennifer_bozokitty@USA.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Lenore Kandel

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

Phil--

I work for a publishing company & we're doing a book on Women of the

Beat--I'll e-mail you some info within the next coupla days...she's in it &

I know we've contacted her...

--

/\____/\

| o o |

=(_)= --------------- jennifer

U

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:20:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Burroughs & Carl Solomon--

Anybody so inclined is cordially invited to check in rec.arts.books.marketplace

today for books for sale by/related to Uncle Bill, Claude Pelieu & Carl

Solomon. <g>

Thanks--

Mark

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:01:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Lenore Kandel

At 03:31 AM 7/2/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Phil--

>I work for a publishing company & we're doing a book on Women of the

>Beat--I'll e-mail you some info within the next coupla days...she's in it &

>I know we've contacted her...

>--

>/\____/\

>| o o |

> =(_)= --------------- jennifer

> U

>

>Great, that book sounds interesting. Are you contacting Joy Walsh of the

Moody Street Irregulars? I was also wondering what she is doing these days.

How soon before that book is published and available? Thanks, I'll look

forward to getting that info. Here is my address:

Philip J. Chaput

19 Wannalancit St.

Lowell, Mass. 01854

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 18:27:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Oops sorry!Lenore Kandel

Didn't realize I was sending that last message to the entire list.I thought

it was a private e-mail I was responding to. I guess I should look at the

address more carefully. Sorry folks. Have a happy fourth of July.Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:13:51 EST

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From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Hello,

Has anyone heard the CD by SEVEN SOULS called MATERIAL (Virgin Records)? It's a

fine piece of music, hard to describe, sounding like you just walked into an

Islamic disco bar where William S. Burroughs is giving a reading. I guess that

describes it fairly well, Islam influenced music with Burroughs reading in the

back ground. The mix is good, I would buy the music and the reading as seperate

CDs even. A much better partnership than WSB with Cobain (phew!).

Anyway...when I bought this CD recently, the cashier at the music store said

that SEVEN SOULS had just gone out of print, so if you are a fan of Burroughs

and or Eastern music, I would grab one if you see it. Any opinions from anyone

who has heard it?

Dave Breithaupt

PS, hey Water Row, do you have this CD (above) in stock?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 19:06:20 -0400

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From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

Regarding Seven Souls' recording titled Material (with William Burroughs), we

have the cassette in stock now and have more CDs

coming in any day.

Thanks, Dave B., and a tip of the beret to you!

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:04:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Publications

I wanted to let everyone know about a new publication from Water Row Press

that will be available in a few months:

"Beat Speak" : An Illustrated Glossary, Circa 1956-1959.

In her new illustrated glossary, "Beat Speak," artist Ashleigh Talbot has

collected over 80 Beatnik terms, defined them, and drawn her artistic

interpretations. The result is a fun-filled yet serious Beat extravaganza all

Beat Generation fans are sure to enjoy. Over 100 illustrations. 8-1/2" x 11".

170 pages. Beautifully bound in leatherette hardcover binding.

Available in two editions:

1. Hardcover trade edition and

2. Limited edition of 100 numbered copies signed by the author/artist.

Contact us here at Water Row Press for more information, including price.

Many thanks -

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:27:48 -0800

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From: Bonnie Lee Howard <howardb@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Summer Edition of BLUE PENNY QUARTERLY

FYI: The summer edition of Blue Penny Quarterly is out now, and can be

found at:

http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/bpq/front-page.html

There's a review in there of The Beat Experience CD-ROM, if anyone

wants to read it.

Bonnie

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:28:26 -0500

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From: michael paul wakeford <mwakefor@INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac's Grave

Does anybody know of any publication with pictures, text, etc., of Jack

Kerouac's grave in Lowell? I'm working on a paper on the Beats in

American public memory and would be really interested in info on this or

other suggestions. Thanks for any help.

Mike Wakeford

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:46:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MLowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave--

There is a very good photograph of Bob Dylan & Allen Ginsberg sitting at

Kerouac's grave published in Ginsberg's "First Blues" (Full Court Press).

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 18:25:19 -0400

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave

At 03:28 PM 7/6/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anybody know of any publication with pictures, text, etc., of Jack

>Kerouac's grave in Lowell? I'm working on a paper on the Beats in

>American public memory and would be really interested in info on this or

>other suggestions. Thanks for any help.

>

>Mike Wakeford

>

>Very good pictures of the gravesite are available in the "Rolling Thunder

Review" a book about Bob Dylan's tour in 1976. That book is available from

Waterrow books. He probably knows about other shots as well I'm sure. He has

an amazingly good collection of beat books.His e-mail is Waterrow@aol.com

Water Row Books

P.O. Box 438

Sudbury, MA 01776

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:22:21 -0700

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960706152526.28558C-100000@othello.ucs.indiana.edu> from "michael paul wakeford" at Jul 6,

96 03:28:26 pm

> Does anybody know of any publication with pictures, text, etc., of Jack

> Kerouac's grave in Lowell? I'm working on a paper on the Beats in

There's a picture on my website, in the fourth part of my interview

with Neal Cassady's son John. It was taken by John's girlfriend Pat

Gallagher when she was in Lowell. Direct URL is:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCInterview.html

And check for the 4th section, called "Odds and Ends".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ran into the devil, babe, he loaned me twenty bills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:20:45 -0400

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From: "Christa D. Neu" <NEUCD@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave

I got a book in Lowell while I was there last summer called _Visions of

Lowell_ which I bought specifically because it had a shot of the grave in it.

It has photos of Kerouac's homes and haunts, and text about the

photos...kind of a guide book to Lowell. Written by John J Dorfner, forward

by Ginsberg.

Cooper Street Publications...isbn 0-9636046-7-8.

Christa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:04:12 -0500

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From: NANCY GRACE <NGrace@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac conference

Can anyone give me information about the U of Mass Kerouac conference that

I heard was taking place this fall. I also heard that they are still

accepting paper proposals through July, and I would like to submit but need

the who, when, where, etc. Thanks much for any help with this. Nancy

Grace, The College of Wooster, Wooster, Ohio

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:39:50 -0400

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From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave

All of the Dylan-Ginsberg photos at Kerouac's grave in Lowell come from

Dylan's 4-hour movie "Renaldo & Clara", in which Dylan and Ginsberg talk

about graves they have visited. Ginsberg says that he layed a copy of

_Howl_ on Baudelaire's grave, and asks Dylan what graves he's visited.

Dylan replies (enigmatic as ever) "I want to be buried in an unmarked

grave." They then walk around the Catholic grotto in Lowell and ginsberg

translates all the French stations for Dylan. Great stuff.

There is also a picture of Dylan and Ginsberg at Kerouac's grave on the

cover of _The Beat Vision_. I used that cover to find the grave when I

was in Lowell, by looking at the trees and houses in the background. Even

though 20 years had passed, the background scenery in the ole Edson

Cemetary hadn't changed that much.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:00:13 -0500

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From: MS TERESA M GIORDANO <TeresaGiordano@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: Lowell Festival

Can anyone send me any information about the Lowell

festival/conference that happens annually? I'd like dates,

publications or phone numbers where more info or schedules might be

found, anything pertinent to getting there and knowing what's going

on.

Thanks,

Teresa Giordano

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:10:45 EST

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave

OK, here is yet another contribution to the list of sources for shots of

Kerouac's grave. If this has been mentioned already, please excuse, but there

is a really fine shot of his grave marker in BEATS & COMPANY; PORTRAIT OF A

LITERARY GENERATION by Ann Charters. This is a fine book for any beat

collection, the photos are great. However, I am not sure if this is still in

print but you can always check a library if it hasn't been ripped off. The book

came out in 1986, published by Dolphin Books, which I think is an imprint of

Doubleday & Company. This is not to be confused with Ginsberg's Poetic

Snapshots which came out much more recently. Good luck.

Dave B. in steamy Ohio

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:25:22 EDT

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From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Lowell Festival

9TH ANNUAL LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC! FESTIVAL

3-6 OCTOBER 1996

LOWELL, MA

"Jack Kerouac: Athelete and Scholar"

Featured Book: Vanity of Duluoz

Walking Tours, Bus Tours, Performance, Poetry, Small Press Book Fair,

Symposium.

Send me your SNAIL MAIL address and I will put you on the mailing list.

More to come.

UMASS Lowell will be hosting a conference on Beat Literature in

conjunction with the festival. Friday 4 October. For details, write

Professor Hillary Holladay, english Dept, UMASS Lowell, 1 University Ave,

Lowell, MA 01854.

Mark Hemenway

President, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:11:45 -0400

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From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Festival

Join us in Jack Kerouac's hometown, during the season he loved best...

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates KEROUAC! Festival

3-6 October 1996 LOWELL, MA

"I was going home in October. Everybody goes home in October." On the Road

Millions of people around the world have read and experienced Jack Kerouac's

books. Come share that experience in his hometown at the 9th Annual Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.

Each October, Lowell, Massachusetts hosts Kerouac enthusiasts from around

the world for a weekend of poetry, performance, companionship and ....Kerouac.

WALK DR SAX STREETS WITH JACK KEROUAC....

Dr. Sax, Visions of Gerard, Maggie Cassidy, Vanity of Duluoz, The Town and

The City- The Lowell Jack Kerouac wrote about is still very much present.

The houses he lived in, the sites he wrote about, the streets he walked are

here. The Grotto, the Merrimack River, Moody Street Bridge, Textile Lunch,

the Pollard Library... Strike out on your own with your favorite Lowell

novel as a guide - or join one of many guided tours.

ENJOY A PERFORMANCE BY YOUR FAVORITE BEAT MUSICIAN OR POET...

Patti Smith, Allen Ginsberg, Michael McClure, Ray Manzarek, David Amram.

Gregory Corso and Herbert Huncke have performed at the festival.

LEARN ABOUT JACK KEROUAC AND THE BEATS ...

Attend a symposium...pick up a book at the small press book fair... or just

listen in on the conversations around you. Experience the rich cultural

heritage at the source of Kerouac's genius. Leading Kerouac and beat

scholars from around the country attend the festival.

SHARE THE BEAT EXPERIENCE...

Read your own work at an open microphone... visit the Kerouac Commemorative

at midnight... or just hang out at one of the late night get- togethers.

Spend a few days with people who share the enthusiasm, joyous spirit and

energy of Jack Kerouac.

THE KEROUAC COMMEMORATIVE

The Jack Kerouac Commemorative is located in downtown Lowell at the

intersection of Bridge and French Streets, near the former site of his

father's print shop. Selected Kerouac passages, etched in eight red granite

pillars, stand as a living monument to his art. The opening passages from

his five "Lowell novels," as well as passages from On the Road. Lonesome

Traveler, Book of Dreams and Mexico City Blues are inscribed on eight

triangular marble columns. The arrangement of the columns and the surface

stones form a kind of Buddhist-Christian mandala. The symmetrical cross and

diamond pattern of The Commemorative is a meditation on the complex

Buddhist and Roman Catholic foundations of much of Jack's writing.

THE JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Emerging and established writers are invited to submit works of fiction,

non-fiction or poetry for the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. The winner will

receive a $500 honorarium and an invitation to present the winning

manuscript at the October Festival. The Prize is sponsored by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc, The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Middlesex

Community College and the University of Massachusetts-Lowell. For

guidelines, send a SASE to The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, P.O. Box 8788,

Lowell, MA 01853.

LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC!, INC

The Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival is produced by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., a non-profit corporation. Created to build the

Jack Kerouac Commemorative, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is dedicated to

promoting the study and enjoyment of Jack Kerouac's art through the festival

and other projects.

Festival planning is a year round process, and we need your help. Join us at

our meetings, 7:00 PM, on the third Thursday of every month, on the second

floor of the Pollard Memorial Library, 401 Merrimack Street, Lowell, MA.

For more information, call 508-458-1721 or email: Mark Hemenway at

mhemenway@igc.apc.org. or Phil Chaput at philzi@tiac.net

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is an independent, volunteer organization

and we depend on your support to produce the festival. Send your

contributions to:

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.

P.O. Box 1111

Lowell, MA 01853.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:14:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Festival

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853

Jack Kerouac: Athlete and Scholar

9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival

3-6 October 1996

"The bus roared on. I was going home. Everybody goes home in October." On

the Road

"L'autobus prosegui rombando. Stavo tornando a casa in Octobre. Tutti

tornano a casa in Octobre." Sulla Strada

"It was beautiful with falling red leaves aching," Vanity of Duluoz

The Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival is an opportunity for

enthusiasts to gather in his hometown during his favorite month to share the

unique experience of Jack Kerouac's art.

The Festival is organized and produced by Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.,

an all volunteer, community -based organization. This year is the 9th Annual

Festival. Our goal in planning the weekend, is to capture the spontaneous,

joyful spirit of Jack Kerouac's writing. Although the final schedule for the

weekend does not emerge until late summer. Major events, have already been

identified.

Each year we select a theme for the festival. The theme of the 9th Annual

Festival is "Jack Kerouac: Athlete and Scholar." The featured book is Vanity

of Duluoz.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize Announcement and Reception- The 9th Annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will open on Thursday evening, 3 October

with the announcement of the winner of the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, and

presentation of the winning manuscript at the Lowell Barnes & Noble Bookstore.

Memorial Mass for Jack Kerouac- A memorial mass for Jack Kerouac will be

held at the St. Louis Roman Catholic Church, the parish in which he spent

his earliest years.

Beat Literature Conference- The University of Massachusetts-Lowell will

present an academic conference on Jack Kerouac and the Beat writers on

Friday, 4 October at the University's South Campus. Leading scholars of beat

culture and literature will present papers and ideas in symposia and panels

throughout the day.

Kerouac Quilt. Merrimack Valley poets will present a cycle of poetry

constructed around a theme of Kerouac and quilts. The event will take place

in the New England Quilt Museum, which is planning an exhibition of

specialty quilts sponsored by the Smithsonian Institution, and a period

bedroom, much like the one Jack might have slept in.

Kerouac Documentary- Doug and Judy Sharples of Cottonwood Productions, will

preview their film, "Go Moan for Man" during the festival. The movie visits

scenes from "On the Road".

Feature Performance- Performances by well-known beat personalities or

performers will highlight Friday and Saturday evenings. Negotiations for

this year's festival are under way. Allen Ginsberg, Patti Smith, Gregory

Corso, Herbert Huncke, Ray Manzarek and Michael McClure have performed in

the past.

Small Press Book Fair- The small press book fair is an opportunity to sample

regional small press publications, and pick-up Kerouac books- new and rare.

Poetry at The Rainbow Cafe- Authors read their works in the Kerouacian

ambiance of a neighborhood tavern in "Little Canada." Everyone is welcome to

read their poetry or prose, but time is limited, please reserve a spot ahead

of time.

Symposium- As part of our mission to encourage the study and enjoyment of

Jack Kerouac's art, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. sponsors an afternoon

symposium at a downtown location. This year's event will feature Mr. Glenn

Stout who has conducted extensive research into Kerouac's athletic career.

Walking Tours- Walking tours of Kerouac sites in Lowell are conducted

throughout the weekend. The tours change each year, but almost always

include: Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto, the Watermelon Man Bridge, the

Merrimack River, and many of the neighborhood sites Jack wrote about.

Bus Tours- Bus tours of Lowell and Nashua, NH provide a more leisurely tour

sites in these two Kerouac cities. Jack Kerouac's mother and father met and

the family, including Gerard are buried in Nashua.

RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL TOURS. ALL TOURS ARE IN ENGLISH. TOURS IN

FRENCH ARE AVAILABLE ON REQUEST.

Open Microphone at the Coffee Mill- Sunday afternoons are reserved for an

open microphone reading and performance at the Coffee Mill in downtown

Lowell. Everyone is welcome to read their work. Sip expresso while waiting

your turn at the microphone. .

Many other activities are available during the weekend:

Exhibits of first edition beat publications and memorabilia.

Jack Kerouac's rucksack and other personal items are on display at the

Working People Exhibit, Lowell National Historical Park.

Edson Cemetery. Jack Kerouac is buried in the Edson Cemetery just south of

Downtown Lowell. The cemetery is open from sun-up to sun-down every day.

Music and conversation- There will be many opportunities throughout the

weekend to share your festival experience and enthusiasm for Jack Kerouac

while enjoying a beer at local taverns and nightspots.

Festival planning is a year round process, and we need your help. Join us at

our meetings, 7:00 PM, on the third Thursday of every month, on the second

floor of the Pollard Memorial Library, 401 Merrimack Street, Lowell, MA.

For more information, call 508-458-1721 or email: Mark Hemenway at

mhemenway@igc.apc.org. or Phil Chaput at philzi@tiac.net

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is an independent, volunteer organization

and we depend on your support to produce the festival. Send your

contributions to:

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.

P.O. Box 1111

Lowell, MA 01853.

***END***

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:18:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac conference

At 09:04 AM 7/8/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Can anyone give me information about the U of Mass Kerouac conference that

>I heard was taking place this fall. I also heard that they are still

>accepting paper proposals through July, and I would like to submit but need

>the who, when, where, etc. Thanks much for any help with this. Nancy

>Grace, The College of Wooster, Wooster, Ohio

Grace, here is the info on the symposium but the deadline for accepting

papers is fast approaching so I suggest you get it in as soon as possible.

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853

PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PRESS CONTACT: Hillary Holladay (508)934-4195

Mark Hemenway

(508)475-9090 or

(508)458-1721

PUBLIC INQUIRIES: (508)934-4195

UMASS- LOWELL ANNOUNCES BEAT LITERATURE SYMPOSIUM FOR KEROUAC FESTIVAL

LOWELL, MA. The University of Massachusetts- Lowell announced plans for a

Beat Literature Symposium to be conducted in conjunction with the Annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival. The Symposium will be held Friday, 4

October 1996 at the UMASS-Lowell Campus.

Anyone wishing to present papers should send a one-page proposal to

Professor Hillary Holladay, English Department, UMASS-Lowell, Lowell, MA

01854 by 31 July 1996.

Submissions are welcome on (but not limited to) the following topics:

Kerouac's Lowell Novels

Portrayals of Race, Gender, sexuality ion Kerouac's fiction

Beat poets, especially Ginsberg, Corso. Snyder

William S. Burroughs

Keoruac's spontaneous prose technique

This will be the second Beat Symposium sponsored by the college. Last year's

event, also held in conjunction with the Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

festival attracted leading Kerouac and beat scholars from around the

country, and featured presentations by Ann Charters, Joyce Johnson, and Ann

Douglas of Columbia University.

Interest in the beat writers is undergoing a revival. A reevaluation of the

influence of their thought and writing on American culture is also under

way. The study and analysis of their writing is achieving a new

respectability in academic quarters. Major conferences at New York

University in 1994 and 1995 did a lot to encourage this trend.

"A forum for serious discussion of beat contributions to our literature and

our culture is needed." says Professor Hillary Hollady, who teaches a beat

literature course at UMASS-Lowell and is organizing this year's festival,

"Certainly, Lowell, the source of Jack Kerouac's inspiration is an

appropriate location for such a forum, and timing the conference to coincide

with a festival commemorating Kerouac's work is an appropriate time."

"The conference is not limited to Kerouac topics," Hollady explained," We're

looking for papers which will expand and energize all aspects of beat

scholarship."

For information on the Conference, contact Professor Hillary Hollady,

English Department, UMASS-Lowell, Lowell, MA 01854, 508-934-4195, email:

holladayh@woods.uml.edu.

Jack Kerouac was born on March 12, 1922 in Lowell, Massachusetts to a

French-Canadian Catholic family. A prolific poet and novelist, he

chronicled his childhood years in Lowell, and the adventures and experiences

of contemporaries as they traveled throughout he US and the world. On the

Road, published in 1957, brought him immediate fame , and Kerouac was

acclaimed the voice of the Beat Generation. The city of Lowell and his

experiences growing up in the Franco-American community here are central to

Jack Kerouac's art and writings. Five of his 11 novels are set in Lowell,

and the city is mentioned in all of his books. Jack Kerouac remains one of

the most influential and inspirational of American writers.These novels are

read and appreciated throughout the world.

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., a non-profit corporation, produces the

Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival held each October in Lowell, MA.

Our mission is to encourage the study and enjoyment of Jack Kerouac's art by

sharing the Lowell experience with visitors and by educating local residents

about the influence of Jack Kerouac on modern American culture and literature.

The 9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will be held October

1996. Planning for this year's festival has already begun. The Festival

committee meets the third Thursday of each month at 7:00 PM in the Pollard

Memorial Library in Lowell. We need lots of help. Membership is open to

anyone interested in working to celebrate the joyful spirit of Jack Kerouac.

For information on membership, activities and meeting dates, write Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853, call 508-458-1721, or email

Mark Hemenway mhemenway@igc.apc.org. or Phil Chaput e-mail philzi@tiac.net

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:16:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Beat Literature Symposium

U. MASS. LOWELL SPONSORS SECOND ANNUAL BEAT LIT. SYMPOSIUM

Albert Gelpi, a national authority on modern American literature and

professor of English at Stanford University, will be the keynote speaker at

U. Mass. Lowell's second annual Beat Literature Symposium on Friday, Oct. 4.

Gelpi will speak on the "Lowell influence" apparent in Lowell native Jack

Kerouac's many novels. Gelpi's talk is set for 2 p.m., and will be preceded

and followed by scholarly panels on the writings of Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg,

William S. Burroughs, and o

ther authors associated with the Beat Movement.

Other scholars expected to speak during the event include Ann Douglas of

Columbia University, Joe Donahue of the University of the Pacific, and Ronna

Johnson of Tufts University. In addition to panels by professional scholars,

there will also be a panel

of undergraduate papers with participants from U. Mass. Lowell and other

area universities.

"We hope to attract a large audience to all of the symposium events, just

as we did last year," said symposium director Hilary Holladay, an assistant

professor of American literature at U. Mass. Lowell. "College students love

Kerouac and the other Beat a

uthors, and this event is a wonderful opportunity for them to hear

cutting-edge scholarship on their favorite authors."

The symposium is sponsored by U. Mass. Lowell's English Department and the

Division of Continuing Education. It is part of the city-wide Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! festival running Oct. 3 through 6. For symposium

registration information, contact Kitty G

alaitsis in Continuing Education at 508/934-2446.

---FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE--

Contact: Hilary Holladay, English Dept., U. Mass. Lowell 01854,

508/934-4195, e-mail: holladayh@woods.uml.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:15:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Grave--

In a message dated 96-07-06 17:44:32 EDT, hdnfalls@POND.COM (MLowe) writes:

<< There is a very good photograph of Bob Dylan & Allen Ginsberg sitting at

Kerouac's grave published in Ginsberg's "First Blues" (Full Court Press).

>>

This photo also appears in Arthur and Kit Knight's The Beat Vision, I think.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:47:17 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: scripts of Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! festival

Will there be any scripts of the speeches held during the Kerouac

festival ?

Since I cannot come to Lowell, but am very interested in this

happening, I would be very glad, if there were any scripts available

via my English bookseller in Munich.

Kind regards

Jens Moellenhoff

jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

jmoellen@sun1.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German)

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space - WSB ***

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:07:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: RANT for the renaissance performance in New Orleans

This looks like it will be one hell of a beat happening and I thought it

should be posted here, Quite a lineup. Check it out.

RANT for the renaissance, The Majic Bus, & TRIBE present VOICES WITHOUT

RESTRAINT 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans

Contemporary Arts Centre and The Howlin Wolf Club August 16-18

PERFORMERS:

Amiri Baraka (poet, NJ), David Amram (musician, NY), Diane di Prima (poet,

CA), Ed Sanders (poet, NY), The Iguanas, Storeyville, E.

Ethelbert Miller (poet, D.C.), Willie Smith (poet, CA), WAMO (poet, TX),

Robert Creeley (poet, NY), Ramblin Jack Elliott (musician), Robert Palmer

(writer), Nicole Blackman (poet, NYC), Hersch Silverman (poet, NJ) & Channel

Nine (musicians, NY), Douglas Brinkley (writer, LA), Steve Dalachinsky

(poet, NY), Frank Messina & Spoken Motion (poet/musicians, NY), Louis

Bickett (poet/artist, KY), Yusef Komunyakaa (poet), Richard Hell

(poet/musician, NY), Mark Reese (filmmaker: Premiere documentaries on Jackie

Robinson & Roy Campanella), Chris Iovenko (filmmaker: Harry Crews

documentary), MouthAlmighty & Bob Holman's THE UNITED STATES OF POETRY (New

Orleans Premiere), Chris Felver (photographer/filmmaker, Premiere of

Lawrence Ferlinghetti documentary), The Amazing Chan Klan (pop), The Black

Pig Liberation Front (multi-media band of future here now, NY), Grand

Passion (new wave from Northeast), Tyrone Cotton (blues), Susi Wood (KY

mountain folk), Erik LaPrade (poet, NY), Brian Foye (poet/writer/Founder

Kerouac Festival, MA), John Rechy (writer, CA), Andrei Codrescu (renaissance

man, LA), Jay McInerney (writer), William S. Burroughs (live phone

conversation), James Grauerholz (writer, KA), Ron Seitz (poet/writer, AZ),

Jim McCrary (poet, KA), Ron Whitehead (poet/writer, KY), John Sinclair

(poet/musician, LA), Dennis Formento (poet/writer, LA), Eleven Eleven (guilt

punk), Sander Hicks (playwright/publisher, NY), Soft Skull Press (NY),

Little Molasses Theatre Company (production of RAPID CITY, NY), Matt Kohn

(poet/photographer, NY), Kalamu Yasalaam (poet/musician, LA), Denis Mahoney

(poet/musician, RI), Arthur Pfister (poet, LA), Hozomeen Press (NYC, CT,

RI), Pop Rocket Records (CT), Ring Tarigh (RI), White Fields Press (KY, TX),

the literary renaissance (KY), COMPOST Magazine (NY, MA), Ralph Adamo (poet,

LA), W. Loran Smith (poet, KY), Umar Aki Williams (poet, KY), Rich Martin

(poet/musician, CT), Kent Fielding (poet, AK), Todd Colby (poet, NY), John

Deer (low punk), Anastosias Kozaitis (poet, NY), Kevin Gallagher (poet, NY),

Casey Cyr (poet, NY), Phil Paradis (poet, KY), Lori Turner (poet, KY), The

New Orleans Poetry Forum, MESECHABE (LA), SPLEEN (KY), GREENPEACE, Bops,

Crack, Boom! Press (KY), Al McLaughlin (OH), Jordan Green (poet, KY), Will

Kotheimer (poet/filmmaker, KY), Wendy-Charly Lemmon (poet, LA), Paul

McDonald (poet, KY), NEMO (poet, NY), Annie McClanahan (poet, KY), Mickey

Hess (novelist, KY), Michelle Fowler (poet, CO), Andrea Roney (poet, KY),

Heather Kolf (poet, KY), IMPALA SUPER ( scruff punk), John Hagan (writer,

KY), Mike Forman (poet/musician, KY), Bruce Beroff (poet, KY), Jeff Eckman

(poet, KY), Debi Coombs (poet, KY), J. B. Wilson (poet, KY), Kevin Coombs

(poet, KY), Rebekah Reeves (poet, KY), Paul Levitch (poet, KY), Luke Buckman

(poet,KY), Deirdre Skaggs (poet, KY), Gui Stuart (poet, KY), Amanda Hammons

(poet, KY), David Minton (poet), Kelly Render (blues & country musician,

KY), Matthew Osborn (poet, KY), Randall Keenan (poet), Jason Powell (poet,

KY), Cotton Seiler (poet, KA), Michael Leonard (writer, NY), Allison Bona

(poet, KY), Aaron May (poet, KY), Margie Nicoll (poet, MA), Marina Karides

(poet, MA), Danielle Legros Georges (poet, NY), John Ryan (poet, MA), Seth

Cohen (poet, KY),

Chris Kubicek (poet, FL), Reverend Jayne Praxis (poet, KY), Kirstin Ogden

(poet, AK), Gene Simmons (poet, AK), Kevin Johnson (poet, LA), Lee Grue

(poet/musician, LA), TRIBE Performers, Dorothy Henriques (playwright, LA),

Paul Chasse (poet/moto-biker, LA), Dr. Ahmos Zu-Bolton, LA), Christine

Trimbo (poet, LA), David Rowe (poet, LA), Dr. Jerry McGuire (poet, LA), Anne

Marie (poet, LA), John Bigunet (poet, LA), Cynthia Hogue (poet, LA), Kerry

Poree (poet, LA), Barbara Lamont (poet/singer, LA), Nancy Harris (poet, LA),

Dell Hall (poet, LA), Ben Gunn (poet/musician, LA) Andrea Gereighty (poet,

LA), Bonnie Fastring (poet, LA), Nancy Cotton (poet, LA), Chris Champagne

(poet, LA), Stan Bemis (poet, LA), Rene Broussard (video artist, LA), Mada

Plummer (poet, LA), Keith Clayton (vibrphonist, LA), Karen Celestan (poet,

LA), Robin Harris Thompson (singer/poet, LA), Kyla Thompsom (9 year old

singer/poet, LA), Samara Jones (11 year old poet, LA), Michael Clatyon,

Valentine Pierce (poet, LA), Kerry Poree (poet, LA), Quo Vadis Gex Breaux

(poet, LA), Ted Graham (musician, LA), Gina Ferrera (poet, LA), Robert

Menuet (poet, LA), Clara Connell (poet, LA), plus more to be added plus

last minute special guest appearances.

EVENT SPONSORS:

the literary renaissance, White Fields Press, The Majic Bus, The Eisenhower

Center for American Studies at The University of New Orleans, TRIBE

Magazine, The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, The Howlin Wolf Club,

EXQUISITE CORPSE Magazine, The City of New Orleans, The New Orleans Poetry

Forum.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:03:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rachel Ann Caldwell <caldwer1@TIPO.TRANSCRIPTS.COM>

Subject: lowell '96

Hello everyone!! Is anyone out there going to the festival in October this

year? I'm going, and have no idea what to expect (although I'm extremely

excited!!) - Rachel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:21:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: lowell '96

At 11:03 AM 7/11/96 EST, you wrote:

> Hello everyone!! Is anyone out there going to the festival in October

this

> year? I'm going, and have no idea what to expect (although I'm extremely

> excited!!) - Rachel

>

>Rachel, I go every year although I live in Lowell. Last year will be hard

to beat with Patti Smith as the featured performer but every year Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac seems to come up with a great lineup. Plans for this

years festival are not completed yet but when they are I will be posting

them to the beat-l list. Last year one of my favorite things was "Sebastian

Sampas lost poet" which was about Jack's boyhood spiritual brother and very

dear friend Sammy Sampas. Jack was influenced a lot by Sam and young Tony

Sampas turned up some poetry of his and also some correspondence to and from

Jack. It was a great reading with friends of Jack and Sam from those days

giving their input at the end of the show. Mark Hemenway does a great job

putting this festival together every year and I think if you can make it you

will really enjoy yourself. I will be posting the full schedule of events as

we get closer to the festival. If you send your snail mail address to me I

will make sure you get on the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Inc. mailing list.

Hope to see you there. Phil Chaput-Lowell,Mass.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:36:06 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: new email

i was told to pass along Ron Whitehead's new email address, apparently he hopes

to be back on by September after the RANT for renaissance... anyways, here it

is:

RWhiteBone@worldnet.att.net

dig it, cats...

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:22:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: NEW ORLEANS BEAT EVENT

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: New Orleans Performer List

Date: 96-07-10 23:43:41 EDT

From: RWhiteBone

To: hasan@mail.bbsnet.com

RANT for the renaissance, The Majic Bus, & TRIBE present VOICES WITHOUT

RESTRAINT 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans

Contemporary Arts Center and The Howlin Wolf Club August 16-18

PERFORMERS:

Amiri Baraka (poet, NJ), David Amram (musician, NY), Diane di Prima (poet,

CA),

Ed Sanders (poet, NY), The Iguanas, Storeyville, E. Ethelbert Miller (poet,

D.C.), Willie Smith (poet, CA), WAMO (poet, TX), Robert Creeley (poet, NY),

Ramblin' Jack Elliott (musician, CA), Robert Palmer (writer), Nicole Blackman

(poet, NY), Hersch Silverman (poet, NJ) & Channel Nine (musicians, NY),

Douglas Brinkley (writer, LA), Steve Dalachinsky (poet, NY), Frank Messina &

Spoken Motion (poet/musicians, NY), Louis Bickett & The Cultural Mudding

Ritual (poet/artist, KY), Yusef Komunyakaa (poet), Richard Hell

(poet/musician, NY), Mark Reese (filmmaker: Premiere documentary on Jackie

Robinson), Chris Iovenko (filmmaker: Harry Crews documentary), MouthAlmighty

& Bob Holman's THE UNITED STATES OF POETRY (New Orleans Premiere), Chris

Felver (photographer/filmmaker, Premiere of Lawrence Ferlinghetti

documentary), The Amazing Chan Klan (pop, KY), The Black Pig Liberation Front

(multi-media band of future here now, NY), Grand Passion (new wave from

Northeast), Tyrone Cotton (blues), Susi Wood (KY mountain folk), Erik LaPrade

(poet, NY), Brian Foye (poet, writer/Founder Kerouac Festival, MA), John

Rechy (writer, CA), Andrei Codrescu (renaissance man, LA), Jay McInerney

(writer), William S. Burroughs II (live phone conversation), James Grauerholz

(writer, KA), Ron Seitz (poet/writer, AZ), Jim McCrary (poet, KA), Ron

Whitehead (poet/writer, KY), John Sinclair (poet/musician, LA), Dennis

Formento (poet/writer, LA), Eleven Eleven (guilt punk, KY), Sander Hicks

(playwright/publisher, NY), Soft Skull Press (NY), Little Molasses Theatre

Company (production of RAPID CITY, NY), Matt Kohn (poet/photographer, NY),

Kalamu Yasalaam (poet/musician, LA), Denis Mahoney (poet/musician, RI),

Arthur Pfister (poet, LA), Hozomeen Press (NYC, CT, RI), Pop rocket Records

(CT), Ring Tarigh (RI), White Fields Press (KY, TX), the literary renaissance

(KY), COMPOST Magazine (NY, MA), Ralph Adamo (poet, LA), W. Loran Smith

(poet, KY), Umar Aki Williams (poet, KY), rich Martin (poet/musician, CT),

Kent Fielding (poet, AK), Todd Colby (poet, NY), John Deer (low punk),

Anastosias Kozaitis (poet, NY), Kevin Gallagher (poet, NY), Casey Cyr (poet,

NY), Phil Paradis (poet, KY), Lori Turner (poet, KY), The New Orleans Poetry

Forum, MESECHABE (LA), SPLEEN (KY), GREENPEACE, Bops, Crack, Boom! Press

(KY), Al McLaughlin (OH), Jordan Green (poet, KY), Will Kotheimer

(poet/filmmaker, KY), Wendy-Charly Lemmon (poet, LA), Paul McDonald (poet,

KY), NEMO (poet, NY), Annie McClanahan (poet, KY), Mickey Hess (novelist,

KY), Michelle Fowler (poet, CO), Andrea Roney (poet, KY), Heather Kolf (poet,

KY), IMPALA SUPER (scruff punk), John Hagan (writer, KY), Mike Forman

(poet/musician, KY), Bruce Beroff (poet, KY), Jeff Eckman (poet, KY), Debi

Coombs (poet, KY), J.B. Wilson (poet, KY), Kevin Coombs (poet, KY), Rebekah

Reeves (poet, KY), Paul Levitch (poet, KY), Luke Buckman (poet, KY), Deirdre

Skaggs (poet, KY), Gui Stuart (poet, KY), Amanda Hammons (poet, KY), David

Minton (poet, KY), Kelly Render (blues & country musician, KY), Matthew

Osborn (poet, KY), Randall Keenan (poet), Jason Powell (poet, KY), Cotton

Seiler (poet, KA), Michael Leonard (writer, NY), Allison Bona (poet, KY),

Aaron May (poet, KY), Margie Nicoll (poet, MA), Marina Karides (poet, MA),

Danielle Legros Georges (poet, NY), John Ryan (poet, MA), Seth Cohen (poet,

KY), Chris Kubicek (poet, FL), Reverend Jayne Praxis (poet, KY), Kirstin

Ogden (poet, AK), Gene Simmons (poet, AK), Kevin Johnson (poet, LA), Lee Grue

(poet/musician, LA), TRIBE Performers, Dorothy Henriques (playwright, LA),

Paul Chasse (poet/moto-biker), LA), Dr. Ahmos Zu-Bolton, LA), Christine

Trimbo (poet, LA), David Rowe (poet, LA), Dr. Jerry McGuire (poet, LA), Anne

Marie (poet, LA), John Bigunet (poet, LA), Cynthia Hogue (poet, LA), Kerry

Poree (poet, LA), Barbara Lamont (poet/singer, LA), Nancy Harris (poet, LA),

Dell Hall (poet, LA), Ben Gunn (poet/musician, LA) Andrea Gereighty (poet,

LA), Bonnie Fastring (poet, LA), Nancy Cotton (poet, LA), Chris Champagne

(poet, LA), Stan Bemis (poet, LA), Rene Broussard (video artist, LA), Mada

Plummer (poet, LA), Keith Clatyon (vibraphonist, LA), Karen Celesan (poet,

LA), Robin Harris Thompson (singer/poet, LA), Kyla Thompsom (9 year old

singer/poet, LA), Samara Jones (11 year old poet, LA), Michael Clatyon,

Valentine Pierce (poet, LA), Kerry Poree (poet, LA), Quo Vadis Gex Breaux

(poet, LA), Ted Graham (musician, LA), Gina Ferrera (poet, LA), Robert Menuet

(poet, LA), Clara Connell (poet, LA), plus more to be added plus last minute

special guest appearances.

EVENT SPONSORS:

the literary renaissance, White Fields Press, The Eisenhower Center for

American Studies & the Majic Bus at University of New Orleans, TRIBE

Magazine, The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, The Howlin Wolf Club,

EXQUISITE CORPSE Magazine, The City of New Orleans, The New Orleans Poetry

Forum.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:12:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: APOLOGIES!!

My apologies to the list for duplicating a message that had already been

sent(i.e. The New Orleans Event). I shot it thru before I read my mail.

By the way, I will be sending, very soon, Ron Whitehead's recent interview

with William Burroughs that appeared it the July 10 edition of the Louisville

Eccentric Observer.

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:26:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs mention in Edw. T. Hall autobio

Currently reading cultural anthropologist Edward T. Hall's autobiography,

_An Anthropology of Everyday Life_. In Chapter 2, where he describes

boarding at the Los Alamos, New Mexico school (which should have jogged my

memory!) I came upon this sentence:

>Many of the boys had rifles, including my friend William Burroughs, whom

>we called Bugs because of his interest in biology.

This led me to wonder if Hall and Burroughs might have known each other

before Los Alamos. Hall's family lived in Webster Groves, which is adjacent

to St. Louis, Burroughs' hometown.

Anybody know?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:28:12 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: lowell '96

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:03:05 EST from

<caldwer1@TIPO.TRANSCRIPTS.COM>

I've been at the last two festivals and had a great time. If you're

going, makeyour hotel reservations NOW! It's fall foliage season and

rooms are hard to find in October. The Parks dept. sponsors several

fine literary walking tours and there has been a great canal ride on the

Merrimack. You have to make reservations for most tours. It's a fun

weekend!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:52 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject: Re: Hotel Rooms for Lowell '96

Bill is right- book your hotel now. The Sheraton is right downtown, I have

reserved rooms at a special rate for the festival. Call the HOTEL at

508-451-1200 and tell reservations you are with Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!. Call the hotel, do not call the Sheraton worldwide number.

There is also a Susse Chalet a mile or so away, as are Residence Inn,

HOJO, Courtyard.

Mark Hemenway

LOwell Celebrates Kerouac!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:27:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: RON WHITEHEAD INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS

This is the Ron Whitehead interview with William S. Burroughs as it appeared

in the Louisville Eccentric Observer, July 10, 1996.

Paul

********************************************************************************

NAKED INTERVIEW: CONVERSATIONS WITH WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS

William S. Burroughs is one of the greatest writers of our times. His talent

has brought him fame, and along with it, many burdens. Daily, Burroughs is

swamped with fan mail, unexpected visitors and interview requests. And if

that wasn't enough to keep him occupied, strange rumors have begun circulating

about him. Burroughs, who rarely grants interviews, speaks with Ron Whitehead

in an attempt to counter the public's false speculation about him.

"His Swiftian vision of a processed, pre-pakeaged

life, of a kind of elctro-chemical totalitarianism, often

evokes the black laughter of hilarious horror."

---Playboy

"Burroughs is the greatest satirical writer since

Jonathan Swift."

---Jack Kerouac

"The only American writer possessed by genius."

---Norman Mailer

"Burroughs shakes the reader as a dog shakes

a rat."

---Anthony Burgess

"An integrity beyond corruption...Burroughs

convinces us he has seen things beyond description."

---John Updike

"One of the most dazzling magicians of

our time."

---John Rechy

"The Ticket is Exploding"

"With suffering comes humility and with it

in the end, wisdom."

---J. Swift

At 82, William Seward Burroughs II, El Hombre Invisible, Literary

Outlaw, Commandeur de l'Ordre de Arts et des Lettres, is rapidly becoming

the most respected, highly regarded writer in America, in the world.

"All at once I snapped my fingers a couple of times

and laughed. Hellfire and damnation! I suddenly

imagined I had discovered a new word! I sat up in

bed, and said: It is not in the language, I have

discovered it - Kuboaa. It has letters just like

a real word, by sweet Jesus, man, you have discovered

a word!...Kuboaa...of tremendous linguistic

significance. The word stood out clearly in front

of me in the dark."

Burroughs? No. Knut Hamsun. In 1890, with the publication of

"Hunger," the first purely psychological novel(yes I'm ready to argue), Hamsun

turned the literary world upside-down and spun it around. In 1959, 69 years

after Hamsun's breakthrough, with the release of "Naked Lunch," William S.

Burroughs, explorer in the most real mythological sense, whose search for The

Word has, does and will take him anywhere outside and inside himself, did what

only a small handful of "literari" have achieved in the history of writing:

He forever redirected the course of literature in a way that permanently

altered language, culture and seeing.

So, what the hell is Old Bull Lee up to? Retired and enjoying good

health, does he rest on his arse? No. He is busy working his arts off,

dreaming, seeing, reading and representing new and old visions on paper,

canvas, vinyl,tape, disk, CD-Rom, your brain and mine.

Dream long and dream hard enough

You will come to know

Dreaming can make it so

---William S. Burroughs

But rumors abound: He's kept tied to his bed and forced to use a

chamber pot; he still takes heroin; he moved to central America (USA) because

land was cheap and he knows it's about to become beachfront property since

East and West coasts willbe falling into oceans any day now; he's dead; he

shoots obsessed, fatal-attraction European midnight visitors with a shotgun.

Come on people. Wake up. Sober down. William Burroughs is

harassed day and night by folks from around the world showing up, without

invitation, notice or warning, banging on doors and windows, camping in his

yard, trying to get a glimpse of the legend.

The man is 82. Let's show respect for his privacy as we do for his

work, as we would expect and demand given the good fortune of being in his

position. He receives requests every day for interviews, visits, readings,

recordings and films. He does what he can, and always, always in the

friendliest manner. (And no, he hasn't shot or threatened anyone.)

William's latest books include "My Education: A Book of Dreams" and

"Ghost of Chance." Recent audiowork includes "Naked Lunch,""X-Files CD,"

plus, he is now in studio recording "Junky" and enjoying it so much he may go

right into "Queer."

Two historic Burroughs events are taking place this summer. The Los

Angeles County Museum of Art (you can contact them at 212-857-6522) is

premiering the exhibition "Ports of Entry: William S. Burroughs and the Arts"

on July 16 through October 6. The event, curated by Robert Sobieszek, is the

first-ever retrospective surveying Burroughs' career, with 153 works,

beginning with his 1960s and early 1970s photocollages, scrapbooks, and his

collaborations with Brion Gysin on photomontage "cut-ups." The exhibition

will also include Burroughs' later shotgun art and recent abstract painting,

and will explore how his work has influenced today's cultural landscape,

resulting in the absorption of his ideas and routines into newer art,

advertising and current popular culture.

The second event is The New Orleans Voices Without Restraint

INSOMNIACATHON at the Contemporary Arts Center and The Howlin' Wolf Club, the

largest Beat gathering of the year, where Mayor Mark Morial, James Grauerholz,

Doug Brinkley, and others will speak with Burroughs over the phone. (For more

information contact Ron Whitehead at 502-568-4956.)

Yes, the ticket is exploding. The walls of the literary world, the

world of culture, are crumbling, and through the gaping holes strides the

drawling wordslinger with an attitude, William Seward Burroughs II.

William S. Burroughs: Hello?

Ron Whitehead: William?

WSB: Yes.

Whitehead: Ron Whitehead.

WSB: Well, well, Ron Whitehead.

Whitehead: How the hell are you?

WSB: How what?

Whitehead: How are you?

WSB: Well, I'm fine, thank you.

Whitehead: As you recall, I produced your "Published in Heaven: Remembering

Jack Kerouac poster and chapbook," plus I sent you my "Calling the Toads" poem

& I'm right now producing the William S. Burroughs/Sonic Youth 7" vinyl

recording for our audio series.

WSB: Oh, of course, yes, yes.

Whitehead: I just received letters from Rene in Amsterdam. He says that after

my reading at the Meer den Woorden Festival in Goes, Holland he started having

dreams in which you and I taught him how to save the world. I'm forwarding

the letters to you.

WSB: How old is he? I think I remember him. What does he look like?

Whitehead: Early 20s. Blond. Handsome. Friendly. Intelligent. Knows the

history of the Beats inside out. He writes from a mental hospital in

Amsterdam.

WSB: Hmm. Not sure. Perhaps.

Whitehead: Reason I'm calling is that Doug Brinkley has asked me to produce an

event in New Orleans in August. It will be the largest Beat gathering of the

year. RANT for the literary renaissance and The Majic Bus will present the

event, called Voices Without Restraint: 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry

INSOMNIACATHON. As part of the event, we'll hold a City of New Orleans

Presentation Ceremony, dedicating to you the historic marker which will be

erected at your Algiers home, which was made famous by Jack Kerouac in "On the

Road." And we'd like to have a live phone conversation with you during the

presentation.

WSB: Why certainly. Yes, yes. I'm honored.

Whitehead: Good. Just a few questions.

WSB: Fine. Shoot.

Whitehead: Why did you decide to settle in Algiers, which at that time was

home to various military bases, rather than in one of the traditional bohemian

neighborhoods?

WSB: Yes. Because it was a hell of a lot cheaper. Real estate there was the

cheapest. I got that house for $7,000 something.

Whitehead: Any memories of different New Orleans neighborhoods you visited,

music, riding the ferry?

WSB: The Quarter, strange plays...Didn't get around too much.

Whitehead: The New Orleans Police have come under attack recently -- imagine

that -- for corruption. A cop hired executioners to kill a woman who signed a

brutality complaint against him. Louisiana police cars have "So no one will

have to fear" inscribed on their sides. Do you have any observations about

the New Orleans police, about the illegal search of your home there, or the

firearms they confiscated?

WSB: No. They never laid a finger on me, as far as any brutality goes. They

did lead me to believe that one of them was a federal agent when he wasn't.

He was a city cop. So there was an illegal search. But I didn't know it at

the time. The next day, I was arrested. There was someone with me I hardly

knew. He was just introduced to me. He had one joint on him. He'd thrown

out larger amounts but still had one, and they found it right away. Then the

next day they went in and took my car and I never got it back, though I wasn't

convicted of anything. See, they can confiscate your property even though

you're not convicted of anything. And that's really scary sinister.

Whitehead: Both our political parties are looking like a bird with two right

wings.

WSB: Exactly.

Whitehead: The police are gaining more powers daily as our personal freedoms

are disappearing.

WSB: See, that's what I say. The whole drug war is nothing but a pretext to

increase police power and personnel, and that, of course, is dead wrong. So

many created imagined drug offenses.

Whitehead: New Orleans has North America's largest magic community. In

recent years you've spoken bluntly about your interest in magic. In New

Orleans did you encounter magic in any form?

WSB: No, I didn't.

Whitehead: There may be irony in having a literary marker commemorate your

Algiers home, a place where you lived briefly, perhaps unhappily. Did you

produce any writing there?

WSB: Oh yes, quite a bit. And I wouldn't say I was particularly unhappy

there.

Whitehead: So it wasn't all that bad?

WSB: No, it wasn't. Not at all.

Whitehead: Jack Kerouac devoted a large section of "On the Road," on the New

Orleans visit.

WSB: Oh well, Kerouac was writing fiction. What he did when he wrote about

me...he made me out with Russian Countesses and Swiss accounts and other

things I didn't have or didn't happen and so on. Yet...some truth, some

fiction.

Whitehead: You have dramatically influenced music, literature, film, art,

advertising and culture in general. Are you intrigued by that influence? How

did you first become conscious of other people's perception of you as icon?

WSB: Well, slowly of course. Over time. Reading the paper, magazines,

journals, that sort of thing.

Whitehead: The request for interviews becomes absurd after a while. This is

the first and last one I intend to do. I feel uncomfortable in the position

of interviewer.

WSB: Yes, it becomes absurd because interviewers generally ask the same

questions, say the same things.

Whitehead: Recently you've been barraged with interview requests, especially

in relation to the deaths of Timothy Leary and Jan Kerouac.

WSB: Yes, of course I knew Leary, but barely knew, didn't really know Jan.

James knew her, was friends with her, but I didn't.

Whitehead: Hunter S. Thompson, who I like so much, is, like me, from

Louisville and you're from just up the road in St. Louis. I recently visited

Hunter at his home in Colorado. Hunter said he thought he was a pretty good

shot until he went shooting with you.

WSB: I'll put it like this: Some days you're good and some you aren't.

Whitehead: You must have been good that day. Hunter was real impressed.

WSB: Well, he gave me a great pistol.

Whitehead: Like Hunter, some people would say that you're a Southern

gentleman with a world literary reputation, but both you and Hunter have

escaped the Southern-writer label. Any comments?

WSB: I escaped the label because I didn't and don't write about the South.

Whitehead: Do you have a personal favorite of your own readings? I know

you've been in the studio recording "Junky."

WSB: No, I don't have any special favorite.

Whitehead: Other than Brion Gysin, is there anyone you miss the most?

WSB: When you get to be my age there are more and more people you have known

that you miss. Brion, Antony Balch, Ian Summerville are ones I think of right

away I was quite close to.

Whitehead: Diane di Prima is underrated, underappreciated in the world. Her

autobiography will be released by Viking Penguin in April '97. I hope she'll

finally receive credit that's long overdue.

WSB: Yes, I hope so too.

Whitehead: You've had much to say about Samuel Beckett. Beckett's mentor,

James Joyce, was an anarchist who devoted his life work to undermining and

deconstructing the dominant paradigm of patriarchy in government, religion,

family and literature. I'm doing research asking The Beats what influence

James Joyce had, if any, on their writing. How do you feel about Joyce?

WSB: Well he's great, a very great writer. Any modern writer is bound to be

influenced by Joyce. Of course, by Beckett as well.

Whitehead: I had a long conversation with Allen Ginsberg about Bob Dylan.

Allen talked about his personal feelings towards Dylan and also about Dylan's

work. Allen said he felt like Dylan would be remembered long after The Beats

and he added reasons why. This is a strong statement, especially coming from

Allen Ginsberg. Do you have any comments on this?

WSB: No, I don't. Not in any cursory way. Of course, I've listened to and

know his music and met him a couple of times, but I don't have any strong

statements to make.

Whitehead: John Giorno is giving me an out-take from The Best of Bill CD box

set he's producing. As part of White Fields Press' Published in Heaven

series, I'm producing a 7" vinyl recording with you on one side and Sonic

Youth on the other. Lee Renaldo has stopped by to visit you. How much are

you able to keep up with music today?

WSB: Some much more than others. I've worked with and am very good friends

with Patti Smith and Jim Carroll.

Whitehead: How do you feel about this historic marker?

WSB: Fine. Fine. It's an honor like the French Commandeur de l'Ordre des

Arts et des Lettres. Commander of Arts and Letters. Commander of Arts and

Letters.

Copyright Ron Whitehead 1996

Photographs:

1. Cover photo of William S. Burroughs by Allen Ginsberg, courtesy of Allen

Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and Ron Whitehead.

2. Photo of William S. Burroughs by Allen Ginsberg, courtesy of Allen

Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and Ron Whitehead.

3. Photo of Hunter S. Thompson and writer Ron Whitehead courtesy of Nancy

Whitehead.

4. Photo of William S. Burroughs by Allen Ginsberg, courtesy of Allen

Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and Ron Whitehead.

Note: Photos will vary with each publication this piece appears in (i.e. BEAT

SCENE will feature in issue #25 or #26 with photos from L.A. County Museum of

Art Exhibition plus Hunter and Ron photo).

CALLING THE TOADS

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Hummm

Calling the toads

Calling the toads

We shall come rejoicing

Calling the toads

one step out the door off the step

goin down swingin

in a peyote amphetamine benzedrine

dream

I'm five years old I am the messenger holdin

William Burroughs' Bill Burroughs'

Old Bull Lee's hand

holdin Bill's hand on some lonely

godforsakinuppermiddleclassSt.Louisstreet

and we're hummin we're hummin

we're hummin in tones

we're hummin in tones

callin the toads

oh yeah we're callin the toads

Bill's eyes twinklin glitterin

a devilish grin crackin the corners

of his mouth and I'm lookin him

right smack in the eyes

deep in the eyes I'm readin

his heroined heart yes I'm readin his old heart

but it ain't the story I expected

as we move this way and that

raisin and lowerin out heads our voices

callin the toads

and here they come

marchin high and low from

under the steps from under

the shrooms of the front yard

from round the corner of the house

fallin from the trees

rainin down here come the toads

all sizes and shapes all swingin

and swayin and dancin that

magic Burroughs Beat

yes here come the toads singin

and swayin and swingin their hips

now standin all round us

hundreds thousands of toads

eyes bulgin tongues stickin out hard

dancin a strange happy vulgar rhythmed

dance for Burroughs and me

yes Burroughs yes Burroughs

yes Burroughs I see his heart

and I know his secret

a secret no one has discovered

til now but I'll never tell

never reveal as I witness

this sacred scene this holy ceremony

this gathering

this universal song and dance

I witness through the eyes the heart

of William S. Burroughs

King of the Toads

Calling the toads

Calling the toads

We shall come rejoicing

Calling the toads

hummmm

Copyright Ron Whitehead 1996

Ron Whitehead can be reached at RWhiteBone@worldnet.att.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:24 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: communication problem

Apologies to listmembers but I'm having a problem contacting Waterrow books dir

ectly. Jeff, I doublechecked that address you asked me about. I did find it a

nd it was the same as the address you had. For some reason, I was unable to r

eply to you directly. You might want to check your out your end with aol.com.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:29:34 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: dawn m zarubnicky <fedex@UNM.EDU>

Subject: Douglas Brinkley's Majic Bus

Has anyone out there read Professor Douglas Brinkley's magnificent ode to

American history, culture and literature, "The Majic Bus: An American

Odyssey." I am trying to institute an American Odyssey course at my

school, The University of New Mexico. Has anyone attempted this?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

--In New Mexico..searching for "it"....

"the moment when you know all and everything is decided forever"

-Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:33:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hippos!

In Ginsberg's interview with Yves Le Pellec (Published in "Composed on the

Tongue" under the title of "The New Consciousness"), Ginsberg refers to a

text co-authored by Kerouac and Burroughs called "And the Hippos Were

Boiled in Their Tanks." Does anyone know whether it has ever appeared in

print anywhere? If it hasn't, does anyone know where the manuscript is?

Thanks.

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:50:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

Wasn't that published in Burrough's INTERZONE which came out in 1989? Check

into that for the hippos...

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 21:49:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Attn: Tony Ullyat - South Africa

Apologies to list members - I have received permission from Bill G. (thanks,

Bill!) to post this short message:

Attention: Tony Ullyat - teacher of Beat course in South Africa. Your email

address doesn't work from here. Can you please get in touch regarding Seven

Souls and Beat Speak - I have the answers you are looking for and we can help

you.

You can fax us at (508) 229-0885 or send me your mailing address and I'll air

mail information to you.

Thank you -

Jeffrey H. Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:59:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

Hello folks.

Schmid wrote:

--------------------------------------In Ginsberg's interview with Yves Le

Pellec (Published in "Composed on theTongue" under the title of "The New

Consciousness"), Ginsberg refers to a text co-authored by Kerouac and

Burroughs called "And the Hippos Were

Boiled in Their Tanks." Does anyone know whether it has ever appeared in

print anywhere? If it hasn't, does anyone know where the manuscript is?

Thanks.

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

----------------------------------------

I posted a similar letter about a year ago. I was told that the manuscript

was probably lost. Supposedly refers to a pre-_Junky_ era collaboration

between JK and Burroughs. A detective-style novel, or afirst American

existentialist novel, a retelling of the Carr-Kammerer incident.

that's the way I understood it.

I don't believe it's appeared in print anywhere.

regards.

william miller

PS Great thanks to Paul McDonald for sending on the Ron Whitehead interview

with Burroughs. That's why I'm on this mailing list, for exactly that sort

of item. Gracias.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:19:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Burroughs exhibit

In case this info. has not appeared on the list, I thought people might like

to know that the Burroughs exhibit referred to by Ron Whitehead will be at

the Spencer Museum of Art in Lawrence, KA from Oct 26, 1996 to Jan 25, 1997,

after leaving Los Angeles. LA and Lawrence will be the only two stops for this

exhibit!! The exhibition catalog can be purchased for $24.95 at the

following number - (213)857-6522. Ask for the book shop.

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:14:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:59:46 -0400 from <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:59:46 -0400 William Miller said:

>Hello folks.

>

>Schmid wrote:

>

>--------------------------------------In Ginsberg's interview with Yves Le

>Pellec (Published in "Composed on theTongue" under the title of "The New

>Consciousness"), Ginsberg refers to a text co-authored by Kerouac and

>Burroughs called "And the Hippos Were

>Boiled in Their Tanks." Does anyone know whether it has ever appeared in

>print anywhere? If it hasn't, does anyone know where the manuscript is?

>Thanks.

>

>David Schmid

>SUNY Buffalo

>----------------------------------------

>

>I posted a similar letter about a year ago. I was told that the manuscript

>was probably lost. Supposedly refers to a pre-_Junky_ era collaboration

>between JK and Burroughs. A detective-style novel, or afirst American

>existentialist novel, a retelling of the Carr-Kammerer incident.

>

>that's the way I understood it.

>

>I don't believe it's appeared in print anywhere.

>

>regards.

>

>william miller

>

>PS Great thanks to Paul McDonald for sending on the Ron Whitehead interview

>with Burroughs. That's why I'm on this mailing list, for exactly that sort

>of item. Gracias.

I have a dim recollection that the mss is in the hands of the Sampas family. P

erhaps someone knows more about us and will enlighten the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:28:03 -0700

Reply-To: prinzhal@ix.netcom.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

"And the Hippos Were

> Boiled in Their Tanks." Does anyone know whether it has ever appeared in

> print anywhere?

Hard to believe the work could have lived up to the promise of the title.

I understand they appropriated same from a 100%-serious BBC report of a

fire in London.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 19:50:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

I saw the Hippos manuscript in Lowell in 1992.

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:39:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Hippos!

On the subject of the inspiration of "And the Hippos Were Boiled In Their

Tanks," here's what Ginsberg gas to say in "The New Consciousness":

"He [Burroughs] and Kerouac wrote a book together by the way...called "And

The Hippos Were Boiled In Their Tanks" after a news story that they heard on

the radio. It was about a fire in, I think, the Saint Louis Zoo, which the

announcer ended: "The fire consumed two buildings and three acres of forestland

and the hippos were boiled in their tanks." Burroughs thought that this

deadpan yankee bizarre image was characteristic of the most blatantly

desensitized mad humor in America. Like saying "And the Vietnamese were

burned alive in their huts," so to speak. So that was the title and Jack and

he each wrote a chapter. It was written in the style of Raymond Chandler,

hardboiled. That was very early, before 'On the Road.' I think Sterling Lord

has the manuscript."

This of course raises more questions. Can someone tell me who Sterling Lord is,

and whether in fact Ginsberg could be right in thinking that he has the

manuscript??

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:50:56 -0700

Reply-To: prinzhal@ix.netcom.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

This of course raises more questions. Can someone tell me who Sterling

Lord is,

> and whether in fact Ginsberg could be right in thinking that he has the

> manuscript??

> Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

>

> David Schmid

> SUNY Buffalo

He was Jack's literary agent.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:24:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: About those hippos . . . .

Poor devils! This topic was raised back in March, and no real conclusion was

reached on the manuscript's existence.

Here's a selection of clippings from the thread at the time (just so no-one

needs to re-invent the wheel):

-----------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

> I'm writing to ask if anyone knows about the novel that Jack and Bill

colaberated (im a bad speller) on by that name (subject)? Was it ever

published? Have any of you read it? If so, what is it about?

>

> Thanx,

> -matt

Neil Hennessy replied:

No, it was never published. It was originally going to be called "I Wish I

Were You" and it dealt largely with the Carr\Kammerrer situation. Burroughs

changed the title to "And the Hippos.." and Kerouac tried his damnedest to

get it published. I would also really love to read it. It was post "Town and

the City" and pre "Junky" so it would be a formative work for both authors.

Maybe one day it'll get published, like "Queer".

Hoping,

Neil

Gary M. Gillman added:

Just for the record, I believe this was written in 1945, and thus before The

Town and the City (written from the mid- to later 40`s). Also, I have

understood the manuscript is lost, left inadvertently in a cab, although who

knows. Probably one day it will pop up somewhere, as perhaps Neil`s full

"Cherry Mary" letter will as well.

Liz Prato chimed in:

Kerouac and Burroughs co-wrote this account of the Lucien Carr slaying of

David Krammerer. According to Watson ("The Birth of the Beat Generation"),

K. tried to get it published in 1952, but it never was.

And Timothy K. Gallaher summed it all up:

>> for both authors. Maybe one day it'll get published, like "Queer".

>> Hoping,

>> Neil

>

>No. I recall that the manuscript was lost or destroyed. Anyone else confirm

this?

>

>Daniel

No I cannot confirm this.

In fact a few months ago in this list a poster stated that Ann Charters had

read the manuscript and pronounced it to be nothing special.

That is all hearsay of course, but I do believe it still exists.

I'd like to see it published also, but I think someone earlier pointed out

the main factor in this--Lucien Carr. Is he still alive?

Even after he passes away, his children could object.

BTW Caleb Carr's book Devil Soldier is quite interesting history.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:17:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: About those hippos . . . .

The question is, what did they do with those boiled hippos?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:35:26 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:39:06 -0500 from <SCHMID@UBVMS>

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:39:06 -0500 David Schmid said:

>On the subject of the inspiration of "And the Hippos Were Boiled In Their

>Tanks," here's what Ginsberg gas to say in "The New Consciousness":

>"He [Burroughs] and Kerouac wrote a book together by the way...called "And

>The Hippos Were Boiled In Their Tanks" after a news story that they heard on

>the radio. It was about a fire in, I think, the Saint Louis Zoo, which the

>announcer ended: "The fire consumed two buildings and three acres of forestland

>and the hippos were boiled in their tanks." Burroughs thought that this

>deadpan yankee bizarre image was characteristic of the most blatantly

>desensitized mad humor in America. Like saying "And the Vietnamese were

>burned alive in their huts," so to speak. So that was the title and Jack and

>he each wrote a chapter. It was written in the style of Raymond Chandler,

>hardboiled. That was very early, before 'On the Road.' I think Sterling Lord

>has the manuscript."

>

>This of course raises more questions. Can someone tell me who Sterling Lord is,

>and whether in fact Ginsberg could be right in thinking that he has the

>manuscript??

>Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

>

>David Schmid

>SUNY Buffalo

Sterling Lord, now deceased, was a prominent NY literary agent. I believe his

agency is still going strong.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:42:19 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: About those hippos . . . .

> The question is, what did they do with those boiled hippos?

>

Eat them ?

Jens

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:13:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: About those hippos . . . .

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:24:46 -0400 from

<MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Thanks to WLJ for the useful summary. I think there's some evidence that it do

es exist and will look into it further.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:20:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: UPDATED NEW ORLEANS BEAT EVENT INFO

Subject: Fwd: New Orleans Performer List (7/15/96)

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: New Orleans Performer List (7/15/96)

Date: 96-07-15 20:06:58 EDT

From: RWhiteBone

To: Gatorino

RANT for the renaissance, The Majic Bus, & TRIBE present VOICES WITHOUT

RESTRAINT 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans

Contemporary Arts Center and The Howlin Wolf Club August 16-18

PERFORMERS:

Amiri Baraka (poet, NJ), David Amram (musician, NY), Diane di Prima (poet,

CA), Ed Sanders (poet, NY), The Iguanas, Storyville, E. Ethelbert Miller

(poet, D.C.), Willie Smith (poet, CA), Robert Creeley (poet, NY), Ramblin'

Jack Elliott (musician, CA), Robert Palmer (writer), Hubert Selby Jr., Nicole

Blackman (poet, NYC), Hersch Silverman & Channel Nine (poet/musicians, NY),

Douglas Brinkley (writer, LA),

Ron Whitehead (poet, KY), Steve Dalachinsky (poet, NY), Frank Messina &

Spoken Motion (poet/musicians, NY), Louis Bickett (poet/artist, KY), Yusef

Komunyakaa (poet, IN), Richard Hell (poet/musician, NY), Mark Reese

(filmmaker: Premiere Jackie Robinson documentary), Chris Iovenko (filmmaker:

Harry Crews documentary), MouthAlmighty & Bob Holman's THE UNITED STATES OF

POETRY (New Orleans Premiere), Chris Felver (photographer/filmmaker, Premiere

Lawrence Ferlinghetti documentary), The Amazing Chan Klan (pop), The Black

Pig Liberation Front (multi-media band of future here now, NY), Grand Passion

(new wave from Northeast), Tyrone Cotton (blues), Susi Wood (KY mountain

folk), Gloria Tropp & Elliot Levin (singer/musician, NY), Erik LaPrade (poet,

NY), Brian Foye (poet/writer/Founder Kerouac Festival, MA), John Rechy

(writer, CA), Andrei Codrescu (renaissance man, LA), Jay McInerney (writer),

William S. Burroughs (live phone conversation), James Grauerholz (writer,

KA), Ron Seitz (poet/writer, AZ), Jim McCrary (poet, KA), John Sinclair

(poet/musician, LA), Dennis Formento (poet/writer, LA), Eleven Eleven (guilt

punk), Sander Hicks (writer, NY), Soft Skull Press (NY), Little Molasses

Theatre Company (production of RAPID CITY, NY), John S. Hall (poet/musician,

NY), The New Orleans Klezmer Allstars, Matt Kohn (poet/photographer, NY),

Kalamu Ya Salaam (poet/musician, LA), Denis Mahoney (poet/musician, RI),

Arthur Pfister (poet, LA), Hozomeen Press (NYC, CT, RI), Pop Rocket Records

(CT), Ring Tarigh (RI), White Fields Press (KY, TX), the literar renaissance

(KY), COMPOST Magazine (NY, MA), Ralph Adamo (poet, LA), W. Loran Smith

(poet, KY), Umar Aki Williams (poet, KY), Rich Martin (poet/musician, CT),

Kent Fielding (poet, AK), Todd Colby (poet, NY), John Deer (low punk),

Anastasios Kozaitis (poet, NY), Kevin Gallagher (poet, MA), Casey Cyr (poet,

NY), Phil Paradis (poet, KY), Lori Turner (poet, KY), The New Orleans Poetry

Forum, MESECHABE (LA), SPLEEN (KY), GREENPEACE, Bops Crack Boom Press! (KY),

Al McLaughlin (OH), Jordan Green (poet, KY), Will Kotheimer (poet/filmmaker,

KY), Wendy-Charly Lemmon (poet, LA), Paul McDonald (poet, KY), NEMO (poet,

NY), Annie McClanahan (poet, KY), Mickey Hess (novelist/poet, KY), Michelle

Fowler (poet, CO), Andrea Roney (poet, KY), Heather Kolf (poet, KY), IMPALA

SUPER (scruff punk), John Hagan (writer, KY), Mike Forman (poet/musician,

KY), Bruce Beroff (poet, KY), Jeff Eckman (poet, KY), Debi Coombs (poet, KY),

J.B. Wilson (poet, KY), Devin Coombs (poet, KY), Rebekah Reeves (poet, KY),

Paul Levitch (poet, KY), Luke Buckman (poet, KY), Deirdre Skaggs (poet, KY),

Gui Stuart (poet, KY), Amanda Hammons (poet, KY), David Minton (poet, KY),

Rani (poet, KY), Albert Kausch (poet, CT), Kelly Render (musician), KY),

Matthew Osborn (poet, KY), Randall Keenan (poet), Jason Powell (poet, KY),

Cotton Seiler (poet, KA), Michael Leonard (writer, NY), Allison Bona (poet,

KY), Aaron May (poet, KY), Margie Nicoll (poet, MA), Marina Karides (poet,

LA), Danielle Legros Georges (poet, NY), Seth Cohen (poet, KY), Chris Kubicek

(poet, FL), Reverend Jayne Praxis (poet, KY), Kirstin Ogden (poet, AK), Gene

Simmons (poet, AK), Kevin Johnson (poet, LA), Lee Grue (poet/musician, LA),

TRIBE Performers, Dorothy Henriques (playwright, LA), Paul Chasse

(poet/moto-biker, LA), Dr. Ahmos Zu-Bolton, LA), Christine Trimbo (poet, LA),

David Rowe (poet, LA), Dr. Jerry McGuire (poet, LA), Anne Marie (poet, LA),

Goldielox & Friends (hiphop, LA), John Bigunet (poet, LA), Cynthia Hogue

(poet, LA), Kerry Poree (poet, LA), Barbara Lamont (poet/singer, LA), Nancy

Harris (poet, LA), Dell Hall (poet, LA), Ben Gunn (poet/musician, LA), Andrea

Gereighty (poet, LA), Bonnie Fastring (poet, LA), Nancy Cotton (poet, LA),

Chris Champagne (poet, LA), Stan Bemis (poet, LA), Rene Broussard (video

artist, LA), Mada Plummer (poet, LA), Keith Clayton (vibrphonist, LA), Karen

Celestan (poet, LA), Robin Harris Thompson (singer/poet, LA), Kyla Thompsom

(singer/poet, LA), Samara Jones (poet, LA), Michael Clatyon, Valentine Pierce

(poet, LA), Kerry Poree (poet, LA), Quo Vadis Gex Breaux (poet, LA), Ted

Graham (musician, LA), Gina Ferrera (poet, LA), Robert Menuet (poet, LA),

Clara Connell (poet, LA), Regina Weinrich (writer/filmmaker: Paul Bowles

documentary), Paige DeShong (poet, TX), Kathy Randels (LA), Athena Kildegaard

(MS), Barbara Lamont (LA), Patrice Melnick (poet, LA), Mona Lisa Saloy (LA),

plus more to be added plus last minute special guest appearances.

EVENT SPONSORS:

the literary renaissance, White Fields Press, The Majic Bus, The Eisenhower

Center for American Studies at The University of New Orleans, TRIBE Magazine,

The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, The Howlin Wolf Club, EXQUISITE

CORPSE Magazine, The City of New Orleans, The New Orleans Poetry Forum, The

Louisiana Endowment for The Humanities.

For Performance & Event info contact Ron Whitehead (Event Producer) at

502/568/4956 (e-mail RWhiteBone@worldnet.att.net) or Lee Levert (Eisenhower

Center) at 504/286/7110.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:07:33 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: About those hippos . . . .

They made "One Ton" soup.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:12:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hippos!

When is Lord's agency going to release some of this Kerouac material, or is it

also tied up in the Keroauc estate?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:03:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Harms <tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: beat: fiction or non-fiction

It just hit me a few days ago that what Jack Kerouac wrote really

happened. I'm not trying to display my ignorance, it was just a weird

moment of clarity...

I always approached his work as fiction - sure, maybe there was some germ

of real life that he snowballed into an entire novel but I always felt as

I was reading him that it was an imaginary travelogue.

But then I'm thinking about the part in Big Sur where he and 'Cody' (Neal

Cassady) leave the play that Cody's wife had designed the set for and

then I recall Carolyn Cassady telling her end of the story in 'Off the

Road'. This, led to some near ephinany to me as I linked these two

events in history by cross-referencing and suddenly there was an air

of credibility to Jack's account.

What followed then was me thinking that Kerouac's so-called 'fiction' (I

mean, that's where you find it in the bookstore.) is really non-fiction

as it's grounded in history and he just gave his friends some 'silly

hats'. (Though I'm sure there were more than a few poetic extrapolations

in his writing.) I know many people see Kerouac's writing as

autobiographical or journal writings but it was just a weird jump for me.

But what if the 'funny hats' went the other way. What if Ann Charters

writes another Kerouac biography but instead of saying 'Jack did

this...',she says, 'Sal did this...' or she says 'Neal and Jack drove to

Los Gatos...' she says 'Cody and Dulouz drove to Los Gatos.' What if

Levi changes the names on his website to these crazed fictional characters

who really dug jazz and the Buddha, drank too much, and drove all over the

country?

I'm sure any postmodernists out there are probably going mad at this

point - trust me, I'm not trying to decontrust Jack's writings. But it

just seems to allow for a gray area to open up between fiction and

non-fiction. I know that of late there's been this 'new' field of

writing called 'historical fiction' or something late that, but it

doesn't seem to all that new all of a sudden. (And I'm sure people were

doing it for hundreds of years before Jack et al.)

(I'm sure there's a Master's thesis in here, somewhere...)

Now, obviously, this doesn't hold for every 'beat' author....but it can

make a person wonder about what goes on in their own mind as they reflect

on an event or tell a story, make a few name changes here or a different

location there and suddenly you're not in Kansas anymore. And if you want

to push it further, you can entertain questions about the existence of

any reality outside our own realm of the senses. (Kinda like the mind

games Terry Gilliam demonstrates in his movies...)

Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

"I got it all when I gave it back." N. Young

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 15:37:24 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

A note of caution - recall Burroughs' comment in Ron's interview posted

here this week, in which when asked about something Kerouac wrote about

incidents with the Burroughs' character...WB said something like, well, Jack

was writing fiction... WB did add that there was *some* veracity in the

fiction. And of course Ginsberg called Jack the "Great Rememberer," in his

intro to "Visions of Cody," I think. May be only my own ignorance showing,

but I'm not at all sure that all of what Jack wrote "really" happened.

Just my own 2 pennies...

Jon Schwartz

Wyoming Public Radio

>It just hit me a few days ago that what Jack Kerouac wrote really

>happened. I'm not trying to display my ignorance, it was just a weird

>moment of clarity...

>

>I always approached his work as fiction - sure, maybe there was some germ

>of real life that he snowballed into an entire novel but I always felt as

>I was reading him that it was an imaginary travelogue.

>

>

>Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

>tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

>"I got it all when I gave it back." N. Young

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:17:16 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

Jack stretched the truth,

the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth.

It's called

Fictionalized

Autobiography.

Novelizing. Proetry.

You decide.

With best regards

and in good faith,

I remain

John Hasbrouck,

from Chicago.

P.S. Ask me about specific instances of Jack altering

"what really happened" to suit his purposes. Better yet,

let's all post our favorite passages from Jack's

"historical" works where he's clearly "making it up."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:55:34 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: dawn m zarubnicky <fedex@UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

In-Reply-To: <31EE719C.54FE@tezcat.com>

Jack's "reality" may not have been Allen's "reality" or Burrough's

"reality"...Just as Carolyn's view of events Jack writes about are

different from Jack's "fiction"....Everyone can be in the same room and

experience the same event, but if you asked each person to write down

their perception of what happened, it would be different...

In my opinion, the beauty of Kerouac's novels are that they chronical an

important time in our country's history from an outsiders point of view..

If I were an American History teacher, I would use Kerouac's novels (even

though they are classified as fiction) as a representation of a segment of

America in the late 1940's and 1950's and as the catalyst for events of

the 1960's.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:04:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Burroughs Exhibit

Halloo Everybody,

Just got back from LA and the Burroughs exhibit today. Absolutely

comendable job. Congratulations are due Robert Sobieszek (hope I spelled

that right) curator of the exhibit, not only for Ports of Entry, but for

the thoroughly researched, well-presented catalogue for the show. This

was a class act all the way. A must see for anyone in the area (I flew

from Toronto to see it).

Didn't get a chance to go to the gala opening, but Ginsberg was there,

along with Giorno, Van Sant, and Di Caprio. Oh, and Burroughs of course,

and James Grauerholz, and McRary (as far as I know). Went to the press

preview and opening day for the public. Good retrospective, covers all

the necessary ground. Was a tad dissapointed there wasn't more of his

latest monochrome paintings with broad, calligraphic impasto strokes. There

are all sorts of little spirits hiding in those brush\mushroom\hand strokes.

The highlight of the show was a sculpture called Untitled from 1992 (I

think I have the date right) that was _Place of Dead Roads_ personified.

It was the one piece I would have loved (most) to have in my living room.

More later. (after weekend I'll come back with more to say)

I'm looking to sell a review to a magazine\newspaper, so if anyone knows

anywhere that might be interested, I can provide the goods.

Even if you don't make it to the show, get the catalogue. Trust me.

Cheers,

Neil

word fallen... photo fallen

(Yes folks, I was that impressed)

PS There's also an exhibit of Ginsberg's photography that runs to August

24th or something. Will post further info on Monday.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:08:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

Yes, I have heard Burroughs stress many times that Jack was a "writer of

fiction." Though his books may be based on actual events, I understood what

Burroughs was saying was that his writings were not to be taken as complete

actual truth.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:19:22 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:17:16 +0000 from

<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

What a great idea Hasbro has. Let's do that -- point out passages Jack made up

. If they are short we can post them to the list, if too long give citations.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:30:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Beat Generation Action Figures--

"What a great idea Hasbro has. Let's do that..."

Or better still, let Hasbro Toys know there is a potential boom market for

Beat Generation Action Figures!

<HAW!>

Best--

Mark

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:31:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat Generation Action Figures--

At 09:30 AM 7/19/96 -0400, you wrote:

>"What a great idea Hasbro has. Let's do that..."

>

>Or better still, let Hasbro Toys know there is a potential boom market for

>Beat Generation Action Figures!

><HAW!>

>Best--

>Mark

>

>Groovin man here's one: Hunke the Junky you turn his head and he mainlines.

Neal Cassady real smoke comes out his nose as he twists one up.

Jack Kerouac you lift his arm and he downs a fifth of Johnnie Walker

scotch.

Burroughs would have a gun that would shoot his wifes head off.

Lew Welch you wind it up and it walks of into the woods and you

never see it again.( only a one shot deal)

Any other ideas to send to Hasbro post em

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:33:33 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Geogia <savannah@SEKER.ES>

Subject: The Cat Inside

Comments: To: Beat-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.cnuce.cnr.it

Hi!

I would like to know information about all the Burrough's writings such as

"

Cities of red night " ( or something like this ) , The Cat Inside, The

White

Subway ( more or less , too ), The letters of Yage, etc. I am interested in

the publishers, year of edition and publication ( or reeditions )and

prices.

Greetings,

Georgia;-)))

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:12:14 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ofer H." <ofer@NETVISION.NET.IL>

Subject: Re: The Cat Inside

> Hi!

> I would like to know information about all the Burrough's writings such

as

> "

> Cities of red night " ( or something like this ) , The Cat Inside, The

> White

> Subway ( more or less , too ), The letters of Yage, etc. I am interested

in

> the publishers, year of edition and publication ( or reeditions )and

> prices.

> Greetings,

> Georgia;-)))

>

>

try http://www.amazon.com for details. they carry almost every burroughs

out there.

good luck,

ofer.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:35:47 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: The Cat Inside

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jul 21, 1996 16:12:14, '"Ofer H." <ofer@NETVISION.NET.IL>' wrote:

>Cities of red night " ( or something like this ) , The Cat Inside, The

>> White

>> Subway ( more or less , too ), The letters of Yage, etc. I am interested

>in

>> the publishers, year of edition and publication ( or reeditions )and

>> prices.

>> Greetings,

>> Georgia;-)))

Hi, Georgia. The Yage Letters was written by both Burroughs and Ginsberg

and published by City Lights in 1963. They are at 261 Columbus Ave, San

Francisco, Ca.94133. "Cities of the Red Night"Was published in 1981 by

Holt, Rinehart, Winston at 383 madison Ave, New York, NY10017, and I'm

happy to have a first edition. The Cat Inside I do not have, but I'm sure

you could locate it through Holt or City Lights. Mark J

--

s. mark johnson

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:33:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Cat Inside

The Cat Inside came out in 1992 from Viking, though parts of it were printed

earlier in 1986. The White Subway will probably be the hardest to find, my copy

is a paperback from Aloes seolA publishers in London, in a printing of 1,000

copies, 25 of which were hardbound and signed and numbered by Burroughs.

Strangely enough, I can't find a year in my copy so I'm stumped. His bio or

bibliography have the date in it I'm sure.

Good luck,

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 15:44:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Cat Inside

White Subway was published in 1973.

Jeffrey

Wate Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:47:08 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: beat: fiction or non-fiction

Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> What a great idea Hasbro has. Let's do that -- point out passages Jack made

up

> . If they are short we can post them to the list, if too long give citations.

Yo! Bill! et al.

One of my current favorites is the passage in "On The Road" where Sal and Dean

are

at a carnival somewhere and Sal describes Dean's fascination with a midget woman

who

he proceeds to follow around wide-eyed. I believe it's the Nicosia bio which

clarifies this incident, which actually involved Neal's lustful ogling of a

9-year-old girl. I assume Nicosia found this info in Jack's "On the Road

Journal."

John Hasbrouck (that's HASBRO with an UCK)

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:00:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVID W MYERS <dwm3766@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: favorite excerpt

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <31F3400C.228F@tezcat.com>

Somewhere in On the Road, jack muses on the deity,

...and don't you know that God is Pooh bear.

David M

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:10:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

>From "Visions of Cody" (I think, maybe "On the Road") and I quote from

memory, so please forgive any mistakes:

"My father gone, my brother gone, my mother far away...

nothing but me and my tragic hands..."

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:06:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

and another classic bit from ON THE ROAD:

"So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down river

pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that raw land

that rolls in one unbelieable huge bulge over to the West Coast, and all that

road going, all the people dreaming in the immensity of it...."

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:10:33 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

Remember gang, the idea here is cite your favorite Kerouac passage in

which JACK CHANGES THE FACTS, STRETCHING THE TRUTH FOR WHATEVER REASON,

AND THUS MYTHOLOGIZES HIS LIFE AND THE LIVES OF HIS BEAT FRIENDS.

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:51:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whiskey Weird Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <31F38BD9.A60@tezcat.com>

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, John W. Hasbrouck wrote:

> Remember gang, the idea here is cite your favorite Kerouac passage in

> which JACK CHANGES THE FACTS, STRETCHING THE TRUTH FOR WHATEVER REASON,

> AND THUS MYTHOLOGIZES HIS LIFE AND THE LIVES OF HIS BEAT FRIENDS.

>

> John H.

> Chicago

>

okay, but...bleedin' jayzus, we'd then have to quote every word he ever

wrote, the whole balzacian jewel hive (sic)! It's all stretching, it's

all fiction, it's all metaphor--even the life itself. See Faulkner for

fiction being more "true" (whatever that is) than what actually happens

(i.e. reportage).

bests,

Steve R. Smith

Graduate Teaching Assistant

Department of English

Portland State University

Box 751 Portland, OR 97207

503-725-3556

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:46:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: bUrroughs rEcording

Hello folks.

william Miller here.

Someone posted information to the list about a month ago, regarding a

recording on which (forgive my memory) Burroughs voice is heard over Middle

Eastern music. I think that the word "Mission" was part of the (or the

entire??) title, or the artist(s) name.

Please, someone, refresh my memory.

WM

PS is Ted Pelton still on the List?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:18:48 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: made-up passages

Hold on, folks. I think we're losing focus on the question of which are

the best passages that Kerouac MADE UP -- hence not drawn from life.

This -- not our favorite passages -- was the point under discussion.

Nothing wrong with citing one's favorite passage but I think the

original question makes for more interesting discussion.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:06:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: bUrroughs rEcording

Yes, that mid eastern album with Burroughs on it was by a group called Material

with an album name of SEVEN SOULS. I was told it was out of print but I think

Jeffrey at Water Row said they had some left. Are you out there Jeffrey? Am I

right on that?

Anyway, it is a very interesting album, a very worthwhile Burroughs piece. Grab

one if you can.

Dave Breithaupt

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:01:08 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

Yes! This, along with the last couple of lines about Dean Moriarity (and

the old Dean, father of Dean whom they searched for and never found) are

wonderful, American gut level vision...hearing and seeing Jack read this is

a wonderful experience - many of you know this was taped on the Steve Allen

tv show...also available on cd and vinyl from Rhino.

Best regards,

Jon Schwartz

Wyoming Public Radio

jbs@uwyo.edu

>and another classic bit from ON THE ROAD:

>

>"So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old broken-down

river

>pier watching the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that raw

land

>that rolls in one unbelieable huge bulge over to the West Coast, and all

that

>road going, all the people dreaming in the immensity of it...."

>

>bfn,

>JDL

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:07:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: bUrroughs rEcording

Yup, I'm here, Dave -

We have one copy left in stock of Seven Souls. Cassette format.

If anyone is interested, let me know.

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:11:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: VISIONS OF CODY QUOTE

Last night I thumbed through my copy of VC and located the quote I tried to

remember yesterday. This was also recited by Kerouac on the Tonight Show in

1957 with Steve Allen accompaning on piano. Also on the Kerouac Spoken Word

CD put out by Rhino.

Paul

********************************************************************************

"I'm writing this book because we're all going to die--In the loneliness of my

life, my father dead, my brother dead, my mother faraway, my sister and my

wife far away, nothing here but my own tragic hands that once were guarded by

a world, a sweet attention, that now are left to guide and disappear their own

way into the common dark of all our death, sleeping in me raw bed, alone and

stupid: with just this one pride and consolation: my heart broke in the

general despair and opened up inwards to the Lord, I made supplication in this

dream."

Visions of Cody

p. 368

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:01:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

Jon Schwartz writes:

> Yes! This, along with the last couple of lines about Dean Moriarity (and

> the old Dean, father of Dean whom they searched for and never found) are

> wonderful, American gut level vision...hearing and seeing Jack read this is

> a wonderful experience - many of you know this was taped on the Steve Allen

> tv show...also available on cd and vinyl from Rhino.

How true! Nothing beats hearing/seeing Kerouac read that passage (or any of his

stuff for that matter!) and listening to the way he pronounces words and just

the way he reads his own work. It greatly enhances the prose - and just the fact

that the "famous" appearance on the Steve Allen Show was a clever blend/fusion

of Visions of Cody and On the Road... right on!

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 06:53:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: j thomas bailey <jabailey@VT.EDU>

Subject: Re: FAVORITE EXCERPT

hello...

i've been on the list for awhile, just haven't posted...

i agree w/ what everyone is saying about Kerouac's recordings...i

recently purchased Rhino's Kerouac Collection(3 cd set) and it is just

beautiful.

i highly recommend it...i also have Rhino's Beat Generation boxed set

and that is great as well...not only do you get great readings from the

writers(Ginsberg's reading of America is just great, the first time i

heard it i cried like a baby)but a great sampling of the music of the

50's and some very interesting media coverage of the Beat Generation.

Rhino, in my opinion, has done a great job putting these sets together

and i recommend them to anyone w/ a great love of theses writers...

i heard that Rhino is putting out a Burroughs set. is that true and if

so when?

see you...

j thomas bailey

Angel mine...be you fine.

-Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:11:58 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac in "Go"

Lapislove wrote (regarding John Clellon Holmes' portrayal of Kerouac in "Go"):

>

> I don't know if I'd agree that this is a "fictionalized" account of

> Kerouac - or at least anymore fictionalized than the way Kerouac portrays

> himself and the same characters and events in his novels (bringing up the

> discussion over what was "real" and what was "fictional" in Kerouac's

> work). Many of the people and events we see in "Go" we also see in Kerouac

> novels, the main differences in the stories being a matter of perception.

> I think that's one thing that's so interesting about "Go" - that we get to

> see how someone else perceived Kerouac, and how that differs from his

> self-perception.

>

> -Liz

If you will consult the relevant biographies, memiors, and published letters of

the time period surrounding the events covered in Holmes' "Go", you'll see that

"Go" is considerably more fictionalized than most of Kerouac's

"autobiographical fiction". Interestingly, Kerouac's first novel, "The Town and

the City", which covers the same period as "Go", is the most "fictionalized" of

the books he wrote in this vein. At least the first half of the book is. Midway

through writing "The Town in the City" Jack met Neal Cassady and his (Jack's)

writing style changed drastically. The latter half of the book is therefore

very different stylistically and sticks much closer to actual events.

It's fun to compare the treatment of specific events which appear in both "Go"

and "The Town and the City" such as the arrest of Ginsberg and Huncke in 1949,

and also the murder of David Kammerer by Lucien Carr. If you REALLY want to do

some fascinating comparative reading, (I'm now straying from the original

topic), read the treatment of Kammerer's murder in "The Town and the City" and

then read about it in Kerouac's "Visions of Duluoz". Reading about this event

in Kerouac's first book, which he completed at age 25, and then reading his

account of the same event written over 20 years later gives one an amazing

impression of the dramatic contrast between his early writing and his (much)

later style.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:35:59 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Fictionalized Truth

I just thought of another passage where Kerouac changes the facts

surrounding actual events to suit his literary purposes. And this one is

really early.

In "The Town and the City", during the passage about the murder of David

Kammerer by Lucien, Kerouac describes Kammerer as missing an arm. This

is entirely made up. I recall reading somewhere (probably one of the

bios) that Burroughs read this passage and thought that this

"mutilation" of the Kammerer was absolutely inspired. Burroughs remarked

that he always thought that Kammerer was "crippled in some way".

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:46:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Doug Wacker <dwacker@IN.NET>

Subject: Hitchhiking Update

I was watching some news show last night (Primetime?), can't remember

the name, and it did a story on hitchhiking across the U.S. A reporter

was followed by a station van as he hitched rides and videotaped

conversations he had with multiple ride-givers. The reporter made

multiple references to Kerouac and visited Lowell. The show at one

point played a recording of Kerouac reciting some lines from 'On The

Road'. The show touched on some issues that were discussed on the list

a few months ago (how American was becoming too violent to hitchhike

[just America's violence in general], etc.) The people the reporter met

along the way were great, too. He met an old school friend he hadn't

seen for years and who he did not even recognize from the get-go, a

family visiting a loved one in jail, a near sixty-year old kite flyer

who recited a little verse. It was a pleasant suprise to see something

interesting on network t.v. Anybody catch it?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:35:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lorraine Maffei <MPSLori@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hitchhiking Update

Unfortunately I only saw the very end of the story last night on Primetime.

Thanks for filling in the story - it caught my attention too.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:44:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Daniel Marleau <dmarleau@NETROVER.COM>

Subject: Trip to Lowell

Hi everybody,

I am in Montreal (Quebec) and I want to go to Lowell this summer.

Can you recommend me an itinenary (excuse my english!) with or without a

guide (en fran=E7ais ou en anglais) for see and feel the spirit of Jack

Kerouac. (Remember his M=E9m=E8re, (grand-m=E8re, grandmother)

Excerpt from Doctor Sax :

=ABIl commence a tombez de la neige=BB...

It will be interesting for me to meet few Franco-American.

Thank's for your response.

Daniel Marleau

dmarleau@netrover.com

http://www.netrover.com/~dmarleau/

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:08:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Beats' night out Lowell

To anyone interested. There is a great folk festival in Lowell Mass. this

weekend July 26-28 with all kinds of great ethnic food and music, crafts and

even fireworks all events are free. Check it out at

http://www.lowell.org/lowell/FolkFestival/ During the festival Saturday

July 27 5-7PM Lowell Celebrates Kerouac is featuring "Beats' night out" with

music and spoken word featuring Kindred, Meg Smith, Ed Dyer, Roger Brunelle,

and Amy Kopaczewski. Lowell Celebrates Kerouac will also have a booth at the

corner of Shattuck and Merrimack street during the festival. Hope to see you

all there. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:38:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christa D. Neu" <NEUCD@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hitchhiking Update

Yes, I saw the special when it originally aired, and I liked the idea for the

story, but it can't have been a pure test of the minds of America in terms of

testing the safety of hitchhiking; unfortunately the reporter was not

hitchhiking alone..and was trailed by a camera crew..the fact that it was a

news story may have influenced people to slow down and pick him up.

I do like seeing pieces of the driver's lives, the way I enjoyed reading

about the people that William Least Heat Moon described the people he

encountered in "Blue Highways". But I agree with something Steinbeck said in

"Travels with Charley"...something to the effect of going on his journey

alone because once you add other people, it changes the entire dynamic of the

trip...imagine how an entire news crew affected the interaction.

(But the kite flyer was great.)

Christa

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:03:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: "The Cat Inside"/Anyone need a copy?

Since a good deal of last week's typing here was devoted to Uncle Bill's

"The Cat Inside" I want to let other newsgroup members know that I'm no

doubt readying to part with <ouch!> the good company of 2 copies of

Burroughs' cat.

One is the "cadillac edition" of only 18 copies signed by both Burroughs &

Brion Gysin. The second is the slightly more "regular" edition of 133

copies, again signed by both Burroughs & Gysin. OK--I'll confess...Sad to

say I need to part w/these before my soon-to-be-ex-spouse realizes that

these are SOMEWHAT VALUEABLE BOOKS. You catch my drift.

Give a shout for details, right?

Thanks--

<sigh>

Mark

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:42:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: "The Cat Inside"/Anyone need a copy?

How much for that cadillac edition of The Cat Inside?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:50:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk@KDSI.NET>

Subject: Cut-up Machine

If you've ever wanted to see Burroughs' visualization of the cut-up

machine come to life, you might want to visit a new side project of mine

called, of all things, the cut-up machine. It is part of a larger

Burroughs collection....All located:

http://www.bigtable.com/wsb/

You'll find the link to the cutup machine at the top of the page.

Your comments are welcome and anticipated and future improvements

depend on them.....thanks!

~~~~Luke

PS: Copy a block of your favorite (or most detested) prose to your

clipboard (if applicable) to be prepared ahead of time :).

---

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:44:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: <For GEORGIA--please confirm eamail address?>

Hey, Georgia--

Thanks for your interest in the Cat--

My mail to you with the particulars keeps bouncing back to me though.

Would you email me at Hdnfalls@pond.com to confirm your address?

I'll get the information right to you--

Thanks--

Mark

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:56:25 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Route 20, Readings, contacts?

I'm a poet and small press publisher from Corning, New York planning a

cross-country driving trip beginning around September 20th. I'll be leaving

Boston and heading west, driving US Route 20, all the way across the

country to Newport, Oregon. I'm calling the adventure "Twenty Days On Route

20" and am planning to write a book on the experience. The book will be

modeled after Basho's travel sketches, a combination of prose and haiku

called haibun.

I'm hoping to arrange some readings for myself along the way and also want

to touch base with book stores, cafes, coffeehouses, lit centers etc. Does

anyone have any contacts for readings, places to stay (low budget trip),

etc. along 20 that I might follow up on? You could send direct so as to not

take up space on list.

This also happens to be the 25th anniversary of my buying a backpack and

sticking the thumb out on the road from Buffalo for the first time. The

30,000 miles I hitchiked over a few years forever changed my life.

Interested to see what comes of this more tamed adventure.

Thanks,

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:40:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Beat discussion in David Donnell interview

Howdy all,

I know I promised more info and a review of the Burroughs show, but as

things turned out the magazine I'm selling the review to doesn't have their

deadline for a few weeks, so my review is still actually just a bunch of

scattered notes. What took precedence was an interview I did with David

Donnell, a Toronto area poet, for Hook & Ladder, an independent journal

of Canadian poetry. The interview was about his 8th book of poetry

_Dancing in the Dark_, but we ended up discussing several Beat-related

topics, and I figured it might spark some disussion. If it doesn't, then

I apologize, but I thought some of it would be of interest so I'll give

you the relevant exerpts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

David Donnell: When you're reading a book you have to say, "How old is this

person supposed to be?" because you're reading topography, you're reading

language, you're reading print. You can't see the person. How old is

Hamlet? I think Hamlet is about 18, or 19 years old, possibly 20.

Age is something you can choose to some degree. You can choose to

suddenly age ten years in two weeks by rearranging your life in a rather

conservative way, or you can choose to be forever young, like the Bob

Dylan song. Which is obviously, there's an allusion there, but it's one

of the gentler allusions, one of the less dangerous allusions compared to

certain allusions to dissolution or negativity, or anything like that.

Neil Hennessy: In that case it's just a prayer of a father for his son.

DD: Sure, sure. So the book is centered minimally speaking on

under-thirties, and the youth culture of the early 90's. But I mean if I

were to literally write that on the blackboard, say if I were sdoing a

classroom thing, with some work from the book, it would seem a little

pedantic. So I woud say, "If this sounds a little pedantic don't expect

anything quite that tight, from any specific piece." And I move around

all over the place in that book. There are a number of, if you put that

tight a definition on the blackboard then you'd have to say there are a

number of pieces that don't quite fit. An awful lot of it does. The Jack

Kerouac piece is in there partly because Kerouac has had a continuing

fascination for people, and he's a terrific writer. He was a youth

writer, he was in a sense a youth writer in his thirties. He was always a

youth writer, in a sense.

NH: That was actually one of his problems because he couldn't grow out of it.

DD: Couldn't grow out of it, and also he's just suddenly came into

contact with so much of youth culture at that time that he didn't really

accept.

NH: Yeah, and he was a Viet Nam supporter.

DD: We shouldn't mention that during the uhh (interview?) (laughs)...

NH: One of the things Burroughs says quite often apparently according to

David (David Ohle, Burroughs' friend), if you ask Burroughs about Kerouac

he'll say, "That Jack, he was a Mama's boy, and a bloody right-winger too."

DD: Well, you know Bull Lee isn't that far off. He was a Mama's boy in a

sense, and one of the most beautiful things he ever wrote was that poem;

it's his only good poem. I'm not dissing him, but he only wrote, I think

this is his only good poem. I think the poem is called "My Mother Smiling

Like Buddha". A poem about his Mother's face, and her wonderful eternal

smile. And of course, you're thinking, this must be a sentimental poem.

It's just one note off, away from sentimental. Almost, but it's actually

an interesting poem, and a good poem, and when you hear him read it, it's

really a nice reading. You would turn around if you were in a bar and he

read this poem, you would turn around to hear the whole thing. Dead on

poem, the only good poem he ever wrote as far as I'm concerned.

NH: I haven't actually read any of his poetry, I've shied away from it.

DD: His novels are much better.

NH: Well I've read several of his novels. My favourite was actually

Satori in Paris, which was the last 'autobiographical' type book he wrote.

And after that I guess he felt trapped by the sort of didactic stuff of

his youth I guess, with his spontaneous prose and that, and he felt

trapped and he tried to write fiction. It was a story about a little

black kid that rides a bus to New York. He never actually finished it,

it's called Pic.

DD: That was in his typewriter when he died?

NH: He was still writing it, yeah.

DD: He was still writing it.

NH: So New Directions published them together, Satori in Paris and Pic.

That was my favourite of his novels. He goes to Paris and he's reflecting

about his whole life and trying to discover his roots, and eventually he

says, "I'm not really a Buddhist, I'm just a crazy French Catholic Canuck."

DD: Isn't it amazing how everybody wants identity? And how so many people

reach a point where they've got to have it in a shoe-box. Sort of like

these are size 9 triple E Oxford mens, and it has to be written in

stencil. I don't think you, you know, identity is important, of course

you know identity is one of the most, one of the big psychological

dynamics that you study if you're studying individual psychology, or

group psychology.

NH: Philosophy as well.

DD: Yeah, sure, but I don't think you can get it down quite that tight.

Maybe he was just joking. Because Jack was obviously a sort of Buddhist.

Dharma Bums is good.

NH: That's probably, of the road novels, it's probably the next one that

I like. It's actually a happy one. Because I mean Big Sur or some of the

other ones are pretty depressing.

DD: Desolation Angels.

NH: When he gets heavy into the alcoholism. They're just morbid; whereas

Dharma Bums is all happy, with him meditating on the mountain and everything.

DD: It's idyllic.

NH: It was a nice read. You walked away feeling good about yourself, and

Kerouac, and the world.

DD: Yeah, and that's wonderful if you can make a reader feel that way,

that's terrific.

.

. (Later on)

.

(About performance poets)

DD: Well I think you can afford to be intellectually self-indulgent in

terms of thematic coherence for example. As far as thematic coherence

goes you can afford to be a little self-indulgent when you're

performing, if you're moving the voice, if the energy is moving, if you're

making points as you go along. When you're on paper the work has to I think

assume focus, and clarity, a little faster and with more continuity.

Something extraordinary like Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake or Cities of the

Red Night by William Burroughs - I reviewed that for the Globe. I think

I reviewed all three novels of that trilogy for the Globe. Cities of the

Red Night, The Place of Dead Roads, and The Western Lands I guess was

the third one. But anyway, books like Cities of the Red Night were not

done as performance art. I like a lot of performance stuff, it's fun.

Very often I feel a sort of general, a bit of an intellectual void at

the centre.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incidentally, David went on to say that Burroughs has an enormous amount

of respect for Kerouac as a writer (which bears out if you read his

'Remembering Jack Kerouac' piece in _The Adding Machine_), but that

towards the end of Kerouac's life Burroughs no longer respected him as a

person.

Anyhow, I disagree with Donnell to some extent about _Cities_ not being

for performance. Burroughs did an extensive reading tour for _Cities_

along with Laurie Anderson and John Giorno, and at least one CD was

produced out of it called "So You're the One I Want to Share My Money

With". I think the audience response on this CD attests to the fact that

there are several pieces in _Cities_ that go over very well in

performance. One of the things that impressed me about Burroughs is that

he shoots from the hip - there are no screens set up between him and his

writing, he does not assume any writerly stance. He reports it as he sees

it. Sometimes when he is speaking in conversation, you could simply

record it and it could appear in his writing (especially _My Education_).

He is very genuine, and honest in his life and work, an artist with

integrity (and I'm not talking about Nike add bull-shit, if they're

willing to pay him ridiculous amounts of money to peddle shoes for 30

seconds, why not buy a comfortable retirement?).

"Woodstock rises from Kerouac's pages."

William S. Burroughs

Again, I apologize if people didn't think this was worth posting.

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:02:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMGATE.TRACOR.COM>

Subject: Burroughs quote

"Woodstock rises from Kerouac's pages."

William S. Burroughs

Now Bull Lee you know better than that. Woodstock rose from the

festival promoter's pressure treated dream to cash in ,not Kerouac's

pages. The fact that the promoters lost money probably pleased Jacky

more than anything. Oh I'm sorry, Woodstock spirit ya say? Bill,

honest reports speak of a Woodstock Nation less glamorous and spirited

than depicted on the silver screen. Dennis Cook's report of the

festival in The Beat Generation is one of the most objective accounts

I have read.

A lot of things rose from Jack's pages to enlighten us all. Woodstock

was not one of them.

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:06:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat discussion in David Donnell interview

Thanks yet AGAIN

to Neil Hennessy (sp.?)

for the Burroughs discussions in this piece.

PS As for that "Jack, he was a....bloody right-winger too" quote, that was

LONG overdue. Thanks for the posts.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:06:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs quote

"Woodstock rises from Kerouac's pages"

Let's just say that I took this quote to mean something else entirely.

I DID NOT take it to mean that Woodstock happened as a direct result of

Kerouac's writing.

I DID take as an implication that Kerouac's writing was, in a sense, like

Woodstock. It smells the same, sounds the same, FEELS the same, to

Burroughs. And to myself, as well.

"Dharma Bums is all happy, with him meditating on the mountain and

everything.

" (from Neil H.'s last post...)

I get the same feeling from Woodstock (what I know of it) as I do from

reading Kerouac's "happy" pieces, like _Dharma Bums_.

And NO, I wasn't at Woodstock.

Grateful for THAT,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:57:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Beat discussion in David Donnell interview

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:06:58 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@aol.com> wrote:

> Thanks yet AGAIN

>

> to Neil Hennessy (sp.?)

>

> for the Burroughs discussions in this piece.

>

> PS As for that "Jack, he was a....bloody right-winger too" quote, that was

> LONG overdue. Thanks for the posts.

Thanks for your kind words, and you're most welcome.

I never actually heard Burroughs say the above quotation, but it is

something that he has written before in letters to Ginsberg.

Unfortunately I cannot cite the exact date of the letter because I left

my copy of Burroughs' collected letters (the pre Naked Lunch ones) in a

friend's car and never saw them again (wasn't that how the Hippoes

manuscript was supposed to have been lost? ah what bitter sweet irony,

well not really ;-)

If I remember correctly, Burroughs accuses Kerouac of hiding in his

mother's skirts. Can someone back me up on this one? I haven't had the

heart to buy another copy of the letters, as that would mean I would have

to admit they are lost forever.

The biblio on the book is:

The Letters of William S. Burroughs

Edited by Oliver Harris.

Penguin, New York, 1993

Does anyone know if this is out of print? I haven't seen it around in a

while...

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:58:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Reading the Beats

I finally finished my first reading of "Visions of Cody" the other day.

It was enlightening, and represents to me the manner in which Kerouac

began to write after he realized "On the Road" wasn't going to be

published right away, and he decided to write for himself rather than

publishers.

With this reading under my belt I can get back to my project of reading

the Beat canon chronologically.

Kerouac finished VOC in the attic of Neal and Carolyn Cassady's home in

San Francisco on his 30th birthday (3/30) in 1952. Two weeks later Jack,

Neal, Carolyn and the kids began a trip during which Jack was dropped

off at the Maxican border in Arizona and the Cassadys proceeded to

Nashville to visit Carolyn's parents.

When finishing VOC, I was excited to get back into the published

correspondence since there's about a dozen letters between Allen, Bill,

Neal, Jack and John Clellon Holmes crisscrossing the continent during

May, 1952. In a letter from Jack to Allen written from Bill's Mexican

pad dated 5/10/52, Jack mentions his "Odyssey" traveling from the border

to Bill's place. This letter is in "The Selected Letters of Jack

Kerouac, 1940-1959", and editor Ann Charters has a footnote for this

passage mentioning that Kerouac wrote a piece about this adventure

called "Mexican Fellaheen" which appears in "Lonesome Traveler".

Upon reading this footnote, I leaped from my desk and ran to my

bookshelf. Sure enough, there it was on page 21 of LT. Sixteen pages

covering Jack's movement from the border to Bill's. (Dating Jack's trip

is problematic. He begins his letter of the tenth telling Allen that "it

took 10 days" for he and Bill to find a nice new typewriter. Later in

the letter, Jack discussed some friction between he and Neal, mentioning

a specific incident that occurred "last week". I tentatively conclude

that Jack's trip took place during the last week of April, 1952.) I

suspect Jack wrote "Mexican Fellaheen" some time after the fact,

possibly using his letter to Ginsberg (in which he describes that leg of

his trip, though more prosaically) to stir his memory.

I'm gettin' my literary kicks.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

PS: Comments welcome.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:16:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Reading the Beats

John (and others):

You are correct in assuming that Jack's trip took place the last week of

April 1952.

In 1991, I had access to Kerouac's 1952 travel notebooks.

We published an excerpt from the notebooks that Jack had titled "Visions Of

America". Visions of America details Kerouac's journey with Neal & Carolyn

Cassady "across the Arizona night"

on the way to Mexico. Jack dated his entry (written while sitting in the back

seat of the Cassadys' car) as April 1952 (no day, however).

Hope this is helpful -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Press

PS: There are still a few copies of "Visions Of America" available.

EMail for more information. Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:52:02 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Alexander Beaulieu <dabeauli@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>

Subject: Re: Reading the Beats

In-Reply-To: <960801121624_169454264@emout16.mail.aol.com>

jeffrey

i couldn't get through on e-mail so i sought you out here. could you send

me some info about "Visions of America". i'd be very keen on acquiring a

copy. thank you very much

derek beaulieu

dabeauli@acs.ucalgary.ca

On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

>

> John (and others):

>

> You are correct in assuming that Jack's trip took place the last week of

> April 1952.

> In 1991, I had access to Kerouac's 1952 travel notebooks.

> We published an excerpt from the notebooks that Jack had titled "Visions Of

> America". Visions of America details Kerouac's journey with Neal & Carolyn

> Cassady "across the Arizona night"

> on the way to Mexico. Jack dated his entry (written while sitting in the back

> seat of the Cassadys' car) as April 1952 (no day, however).

> Hope this is helpful -

>

> Jeffrey Weinberg

> Water Row Press

>

> PS: There are still a few copies of "Visions Of America" available.

> EMail for more information. Thanks.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:31:47 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs quote

Interesting quote, and very timely for me. I am teaching a class on the beat

writers this fall, and in addition to the Charters anthology and a couple of

kerouac novels, we are going to read Wolfe's Electric KoolAide Acid Test.

My purpose is to show these kids in their tie-dyed shirts and Jerry Garcia ties

just how the beats and the sixties connect. I will probably use this quote

and am interested in any further information anyone might have on it.

In fact, if anyone out there has any information, ideas, or insights that might

help me as I structure this class, I would appreciate your sending them along.

You may send me e-mail directly at enjordan@alpha.nlu.edu, or by post to

Robert Jordan, Department of English, Northeast Louisiana University, Monroe,

Louisiana, 71211.

In the past, I have done a couple of interesting projects in this class. We kept

journals, following kerouac's rules for spontaneous prose, for two months. I

also kept a journal. Then, following Burrough's cut-up method, we each submitted

som xeroxed pages from our journals, cut them into individual lines, and re-

arranged them into a long, stream of consciousness poem. One student then typed

the entire poem on a scroll(in tribute to kerouac's first draft of on the road)

and gave a reading at a local coffeehouse. Surprisingly, it was well-received.

At any rate, this is an open ended class. My goal is to tear down as many

traditional educational barriers as I can. Thanks for your time.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:32:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Burroughs quote

> Interesting quote, and very timely for me. I am teaching a class on

> the beat writers this fall, and in addition to the Charters anthology

> and a couple of kerouac novels, we are going to read Wolfe's Electric

> KoolAide Acid Test. My purpose is to show these kids in their tie-dyed

> shirts and Jerry Garcia ties just how the beats and the sixties

> connect. I will probably use this quote and am interested in any

> further information anyone might have on it.

The quotation was taken from the essay entitled 'Remembering Jack

Kerouac' from

The Adding Machine

Calder, London, 1985

First American edition: Seaver Books, New York, 1986

Arcade Books, New York, 1993

In this piece Burroughs also talks about how Fitzgerald in a sense

created the Lost Generation by writing about it. This relates back to

what Burroughs said about his meeting with Jasper Johns (this is from

memory, but it's pretty accurate), "I met him in the 60's and asked him

what painting is all about? He replied, "What is the purpose of writing?"

I said I didn't know, but I know now: The purpose of writing is to make

it happen." By writing about something you can bring it into being.

"The role of the artist is to teach people what they know but don't know

that they know." Burroughs says this quite often and uses Cezanne and

Joyce to illustrate his point. The Lost Generation was there, but it did

not exist in people's minds as a generation with its characteristics and

Zeitgeist until Fitzgerald wrote it into being. In this way he argues

Kerouac portended, and also had a hand in creating the 60's.

My advice is to go to the source, read the essay, actually read all of

_The Adding Machine_. What you get is a collection of thoughts and

reflections, and also a little more _The Job_ type theory. You also get

to read Burroughs' answer to the mysoginist accusations (called 'Women

are a Biological Mistake'), as well as a very insightful piece on Proust

and Beckett.

Anyhow, I gave the above quotations to contextualize the essay with

Burroughs' ideas on the power and purpose of writing.

"Dreaming can make it so."

William S. Burroughs

Cheers,

Neil M. Hennessy

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:29:00 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Ghost of A Chance

I just finished reading Burroughs' Ghost Of A Chance and found it so

much more rewarding than My Education. Wonder what others out there

think of the relative merits of these works.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:47:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: question

Comments: cc: wargue@inforamp.net

Hi Beat-L'ers:

Somebody sent me this question, and I have no clue. Anyone know?

> Several years ago I came across some particularly interesting (to me)

> erotic literature. It stood apart from the run of the mill "grunt and

> groan" pulp to such an extent that I never entirely forgot about it. A few

> months ago, browsing through selections from the old Olympia/Ophelia Press

> I was startled to find myself confronted by an exerpt from this same

> material. Now, however, I had a name to go with it - Tor Kung - and brief

> explanation that he was "neither an Oriental nor a Viking" but that this

> was the pen name of an American poet, born in Pittsburgh around 1929 who

> "participated in the birth of the Beat movement in San Francisco and has

> read his poetry around the world". He apparently spent much of his adult

> life in Europe.

>

> Despite what appear to be obvious clues I can't make the connection. Any

ideas?

>

> There doesn't seem to be any reference to his writing under the pen name in

> any of the standard bibliographies one might normally consult, but I'd

> really like to track down some of this old material and it seems my only

> chance is to figure out his real identity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

"don't push me

cause I'm close

to the edge"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:58:52 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ghost of A Chance

It might be interesting to read Burrough's MY EDUCATION along with Kerouac's

BOOK OF DREAMS. I find it kind of hard to read about someone's dreams, but Jack

and Bill make it interesting reading, especially side by side.

And on another topic, does anyone know whatever happened to Kerouac's early

manuscript, THE SEA IS MY BROTHER. (?) Thanks,

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:03:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Hank Chilton <TRUFFAUT@AOL.COM>

Subject: first time

So, my friends

"As soon as they're outside, they play with the other children. Many

children are playing in the garden-enclosed entryway, some of them are

standing and staring at the upper front of the church at images of angels in

rain dimmed stone.

I bow to all this, kneel at my pew entryway, and go out, taking one last look

at St. Antoine de Padue (St. Anthony) Santo Antonio de Padua. - Everything is

perfect on the street again, the world is permeated with roses of happiness

all the time, but none of us know it. The happiness consists in realizing

that it is all a great strange dream."

I am not the greatest intellect on the subject, but I have read much about

the Beats. With the recent mentioning of Lonesome Traveler", which I am now

reading for the first time, I found the preceeding quote. I love it. You

can find this quote at the end of the chapter called "Mexico Fellaheen."

I think that I love reading Kerouac because of his optimism in the beauty of

the world, his love for the innocent, his ability to appreciate.

Hank

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:42:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ghost of A Chance

Hello again.

Bill Gargan wrote:"I just finished reading Burroughs' Ghost Of A Chance and

found it so much more rewarding than My Education. Wonder what others out

there

think of the relative merits of these works"

I have only read each of these works once. I found _My Education_ to be more

rewarding than _Ghost of Chance_. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it was that I

thought that WSB was giving me some valuable clues as to how fiction gets to

the paper.

Why did Bill Gargan find _Ghost of Chance_ to be more worthwhile? I got a

few chuckles out of it, but I thought it was sort of a take-it-or-leave-it

text, really.

Regards,

william Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:48:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Ghost of A Chance

I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE. wrote:

>

> And on another topic, does anyone know whatever happened to Kerouac's early

> manuscript, THE SEA IS MY BROTHER. (?) Thanks,

>

> Dave B.

Kerouac left this manuscript in a taxicab in the late forties.

John H.

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:01:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ghost of A Chance

>I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE. wrote:

>>

>> And on another topic, does anyone know whatever happened to Kerouac's early

>> manuscript, THE SEA IS MY BROTHER. (?) Thanks,

>>

>> Dave B.

>

>

>Kerouac left this manuscript in a taxicab in the late forties.

>

>John H.

>Chicago

This story seems apocryphal. I've read many variations on the manuscript

in the cab story (different manuscripts, different authors). Even if this

story can be traced back to Kerouac, I'm not sure I'd believe it.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:19:46 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Ghost of A Chance

Robert Peltier wrote:

>

> >I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE. wrote:

> >>

> >> And on another topic, does anyone know whatever happened to Kerouac's early

> >> manuscript, THE SEA IS MY BROTHER. (?) Thanks,

> >>

> >> Dave B.

> >

> >

> >Kerouac left this manuscript in a taxicab in the late forties.

> >

> >John H.

> >Chicago

>

> This story seems apocryphal. I've read many variations on the manuscript

> in the cab story (different manuscripts, different authors). Even if this

> story can be traced back to Kerouac, I'm not sure I'd believe it.

Check the Nicosia bio.

jwh

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:02:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Ghost of Chance

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:42:04 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:

> I have only read each of these works once. I found _My Education_ to

> be more rewarding than _Ghost of Chance_. I'm not sure why. Perhaps

> it was that I thought that WSB was giving me some valuable clues as to

> how fiction gets to the paper.

I have to agree with Mr. Miller here. I've read _My Education_ twice and

the reason I enjoy it is that you seem to get a glimpse at the process of

writing that Burroughs undergoes. His dreams are one of the most

important tools in his fiction (he's said this many times, in many

places). I would suggest that reading it alongside _The Western Lands_

would be more frutiful than with _Book of Dreams_. I suggested a long

time ago that we delve into the Land of the Dead in _My Education_ and

_The Western Lands_ as a possible topic o' discussion. I never actually

got around to doing a detailed enough reading to have anything

interesting to say (one day I guess). Some passages that appear in _The

Western Lands_ could be, and probably are, straight from the same

material as _My Education_. Autobiography merges with fiction as the old

man by the river becomes indistinguishable from William Burroughs

himself: Burroughs respects no boundaries.

Burroughs himself says that other people's dreams are often very boring

and pointless to listen to. Why? No context. _My Education_ is not for

the uninitiated Burroughs reader. I cannot imagine that I would be as

much of an admirer of Burroughs if that was the first book of his I had

read. Somehow after having read all the Burroughs I could get my hands on,

as well as the biographies and volumes of criticism, Burroughs' dreams do

have context - that of his life and work. So, like W. Miller (I assume),

I find his flying dreams interesting as models for the journeys in space

in _Cities of the Red Night_, and his own journeys into the LOD in his

dreams as the fertile ground for Joe the Dead and company's sojourns near

the Duad.

_My Education_ seems to be like an epistolary book, something you

wouldn't read unless you were already very interested in the author.

_Ghost of Chance_ on the other hand is a work of fiction that stands

alone in and of itself.

> Why did Bill Gargan find _Ghost of Chance_ to be more worthwhile? I got a

> few chuckles out of it, but I thought it was sort of a take-it-or-leave-it

> text, really.

I got a few chuckles out of it also (the Jesus part is hilarious). I also

found it to contain (as did either Miles or Morgan, I can't remember)

some of the most beautiful and almost lyrical writing Burroughs has ever put

to paper. Captain Mission and the lemurs also evokes a very moving

pathos that I didn't know Burroughs was capable of. You see flashes of

it in the intro to _Queer_ or _The Cat Inside_ when his cats are injured

or sick.

One thing I was not impressed with was the reproduction of Burroughs'

paintings in the book. Burroughs had no hand in choosing the paintings

that were included (at least that's what he said). Anyhow, I thought the

reproductions were too small, and black and white just does not bring

forth the power of his paintings, especially after seeing a whole bunch

of them in person. Incidentally, the original Whitney Museum Edition was

illustrated by someone else entirely (whose name I cannot recall right now).

Now that I'm cleaning out the cobwebs, I posted a meaningless piece of

trivia a while ago asking what was the only time Burroughs ever wrote

from a female point of view. No-one ever answered and after 3 months the

contest is over (it never really was a contest, but I could probably have

been persuaded to send the answerer a copy of my chap-book). The answer

is in _Cities of the Red Night_ where we read a diary entry of Hirondelle

de Mer asking what would happen if all of North America were taken over

by the Articulated and the Spanish were to be defeated. Unforunately she

ends by saying that it is probably impossible for the Ariculated to

continue, portending their ultimate defeat. (Those damn women always

ruining things in the Burroughsian universe ;-) The passage is only a

page and a half long and occurs around the 100 page mark. I'd love to

hear that I'm wrong if anyone else can think of a female p.o.v. in a

Burroughs text.

Just some thoughts to pass the time away...

Your Faithful Reporter,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:39:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Festival

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853

Jack Kerouac: Athlete and Scholar

9th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival

3-6 October 1996

"The bus roared on. I was going home. Everybody goes home in October." On

the Road

"L'autobus prosegui rombando. Stavo tornando a casa in Octobre. Tutti

tornano a casa in Octobre." Sulla Strada

"It was beautiful with falling red leaves aching," Vanity of Duluoz

The Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival is an opportunity for

enthusiasts to gather in his hometown during his favorite month to share the

unique experience of Jack Kerouac's art.

The Festival is organized and produced by Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.,

an all volunteer, community -based organization. This year is the 9th Annual

Festival. Our goal in planning the weekend, is to capture the spontaneous,

joyful spirit of Jack Kerouac's writing. Although the final schedule for the

weekend does not emerge until late summer. Major events, have already been

identified.

Each year we select a theme for the festival. The theme of the 9th Annual

Festival is "Jack Kerouac: Athlete and Scholar." The featured book is Vanity

of Duluoz.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize Announcement and Reception- The 9th Annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will open on Thursday evening, 3 October

with the announcement of the winner of the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, and

presentation of the winning manuscript at the Lowell Barnes & Noble Bookstore.

Memorial Mass for Jack Kerouac- A memorial mass for Jack Kerouac will be

held at the St. Louis Roman Catholic Church, the parish in which he spent

his earliest years.

Beat Literature Conference- The University of Massachusetts-Lowell will

present an academic conference on Jack Kerouac and the Beat writers on

Friday, 4 October at the University's South Campus. Leading scholars of beat

culture and literature will present papers and ideas in symposia and panels

throughout the day.

Kerouac Quilt. Merrimack Valley poets will present a cycle of poetry

constructed around a theme of Kerouac and quilts. The event will take place

in the New England Quilt Museum, which is planning an exhibition of

specialty quilts sponsored by the Smithsonian Institution, and a period

bedroom, much like the one Jack might have slept in.

Kerouac Documentary- Doug and Judy Sharples of Cottonwood Productions, will

preview their film, "Go Moan for Man" during the festival. The movie visits

scenes from "On the Road".

Feature Performance- Performances by well-known beat personalities or

performers will highlight Friday and Saturday evenings. Negotiations for

this year's festival are under way. Allen Ginsberg, Patti Smith, Gregory

Corso, Herbert Huncke, Ray Manzarek and Michael McClure have performed in

the past.

Small Press Book Fair- The small press book fair is an opportunity to sample

regional small press publications, and pick-up Kerouac books- new and rare.

Poetry at The Rainbow Cafe- Authors read their works in the Kerouacian

ambiance of a neighborhood tavern in "Little Canada." Everyone is welcome to

read their poetry or prose, but time is limited, please reserve a spot ahead

of time.

Symposium- As part of our mission to encourage the study and enjoyment of

Jack Kerouac's art, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. sponsors an afternoon

symposium at a downtown location. This year's event will feature Mr. Glenn

Stout who has conducted extensive research into Kerouac's athletic career.

Walking Tours- Walking tours of Kerouac sites in Lowell are conducted

throughout the weekend. The tours change each year, but almost always

include: Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto, the Watermelon Man Bridge, the

Merrimack River, and many of the neighborhood sites Jack wrote about.

Bus Tours- Bus tours of Lowell and Nashua, NH provide a more leisurely tour

sites in these two Kerouac cities. Jack Kerouac's mother and father met and

the family, including Gerard are buried in Nashua.

RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL TOURS. ALL TOURS ARE IN ENGLISH. TOURS IN

FRENCH ARE AVAILABLE ON REQUEST.

Open Microphone at the Coffee Mill- Sunday afternoons are reserved for an

open microphone reading and performance at the Coffee Mill in downtown

Lowell. Everyone is welcome to read their work. Sip expresso while waiting

your turn at the microphone. .

Many other activities are available during the weekend:

Exhibits of first edition beat publications and memorabilia.

Jack Kerouac's rucksack and other personal items are on display at the

Working People Exhibit, Lowell National Historical Park.

Edson Cemetery. Jack Kerouac is buried in the Edson Cemetery just south of

Downtown Lowell. The cemetery is open from sun-up to sun-down every day.

Music and conversation- There will be many opportunities throughout the

weekend to share your festival experience and enthusiasm for Jack Kerouac

while enjoying a beer at local taverns and nightspots.

***END***

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:42:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Female p.o.v. in Burroughs <fwd>

Comments: cc: Gary Lee-Nova <a1432@Mindlink.BC.CA>

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 20:53:48 -0800 Gary Lee-Nova <a1432@Mindlink.BC.CA> wrote:

> Neil, I can't seem to successfully post to the beat list, so;

>

> At 16:02 06/08/1996, Neil Hennessy typed:

>

> >I'd love to hear that I'm wrong if anyone else can think of a female

> >p.o.v. in a Burroughs text.

>

> >Your Faithful Reporter,

> >Neil

>

> Neil;

>

> I don't think you're wrong here, but how about "The Literary Techniques Of

> Lady Sutton-Smith" ?

>

> Gary Lee-Nova * Emily Carr Institute Of Art & Design * Vancouver B.C.

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Internet: a1432@Mindlink.bc.ca -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm at a loss here. Where was the afore-mentioned passage?

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:10:17 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Dr. Sax speaks

There exists an audio recording of Jack Kerouac reading from *Dr. Sax*.

I believe it was recorded around 1960. It's at least an hour long. Bits

of it can be heard in the movie *What Happened to Kerouac?*

Does anyone know how I might obtain a copy of this recording? I don't

believe it was ever commercially released.

If anyone can copy it for me we could swap tapes. I have numerous hours

of Burroughs reading.

John

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:24:02 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: question

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:47:12 -0700 from

<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:47:12 -0700 Levi Asher said:

>Hi Beat-L'ers:

>

>Somebody sent me this question, and I have no clue. Anyone know?

>

>> Several years ago I came across some particularly interesting (to me)

>> erotic literature. It stood apart from the run of the mill "grunt and

>> groan" pulp to such an extent that I never entirely forgot about it. A few

>> months ago, browsing through selections from the old Olympia/Ophelia Press

>> I was startled to find myself confronted by an exerpt from this same

>> material. Now, however, I had a name to go with it - Tor Kung - and brief

>> explanation that he was "neither an Oriental nor a Viking" but that this

>> was the pen name of an American poet, born in Pittsburgh around 1929 who

>> "participated in the birth of the Beat movement in San Francisco and has

>> read his poetry around the world". He apparently spent much of his adult

>> life in Europe.

>>

>> Despite what appear to be obvious clues I can't make the connection. Any

> ideas?

>>

>> There doesn't seem to be any reference to his writing under the pen name in

>> any of the standard bibliographies one might normally consult, but I'd

>> really like to track down some of this old material and it seems my only

>> chance is to figure out his real identity.

>

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

>

> "don't push me

> cause I'm close

> to the edge"

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a vague recollection that we've discussed this on the list before but I

can't quite come up with the name of the author. I've looked through several p

en name directories and searched various library catalogs hoping for a cross re

ference to the real name but to no avail. I did come up with the title of the

work if that's any consolation: My Mother Taught Me. I'll keep working on it

in my spare time and let you all know if I come up with anything.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:41:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whiskey Weird Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: question

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%96080714273682@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Could the mystery man be Gregory Corso? Just a guess--but I did read

somewhere in one beat source or another that he wrote erotica for

Olympia. I haven't his birthdate info at hand, but... and that "neither

oriental nor Viking" bit would certainly seem to fit Corso's often impish

wit. And GC did live in Paris for some period, refining the poet maudit

routine. Am I pissing at the stars here?

Best, Steve Smith (Portland State U., Portland, OR)

On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Bill Gargan wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:47:12 -0700 Levi Asher said:

> >Hi Beat-L'ers:

> >

> >Somebody sent me this question, and I have no clue. Anyone know?

> >

> >> Several years ago I came across some particularly interesting (to me)

> >> erotic literature. It stood apart from the run of the mill "grunt and

> >> groan" pulp to such an extent that I never entirely forgot about it. A few

> >> months ago, browsing through selections from the old Olympia/Ophelia Press

> >> I was startled to find myself confronted by an exerpt from this same

> >> material. Now, however, I had a name to go with it - Tor Kung - and brief

> >> explanation that he was "neither an Oriental nor a Viking" but that this

> >> was the pen name of an American poet, born in Pittsburgh around 1929 who

> >> "participated in the birth of the Beat movement in San Francisco and has

> >> read his poetry around the world". He apparently spent much of his adult

> >> life in Europe.

> >>

> >> Despite what appear to be obvious clues I can't make the connection. Any

> > ideas?

> >>

> >> There doesn't seem to be any reference to his writing under the pen name in

> >> any of the standard bibliographies one might normally consult, but I'd

> >> really like to track down some of this old material and it seems my only

> >> chance is to figure out his real identity.

> >

> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> >

> > Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> > (the beat literature web site)

> >

> > Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> > (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> >

> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> >

> > "don't push me

> > cause I'm close

> > to the edge"

> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> I have a vague recollection that we've discussed this on the list before but I

> can't quite come up with the name of the author. I've looked through several

p

> en name directories and searched various library catalogs hoping for a cross r

e

> ference to the real name but to no avail. I did come up with the title of the

> work if that's any consolation: My Mother Taught Me. I'll keep working on it

> in my spare time and let you all know if I come up with anything.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:49:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: question

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PTX.3.91.960807113620.19930A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu> from

"Whiskey Weird Smith" at Aug 7, 96 11:41:20 am

> Could the mystery man be Gregory Corso? Just a guess--but I did read

> somewhere in one beat source or another that he wrote erotica for

> Olympia. I haven't his birthdate info at hand, but... and that "neither

> oriental nor Viking" bit would certainly seem to fit Corso's often impish

> wit. And GC did live in Paris for some period, refining the poet maudit

> routine. Am I pissing at the stars here?

Only one problem -- Corso was born in Greenwich Village, not Pittsburgh.

I did get this from one Beat-L'er --

> Just in case my e-mail to the beat-l list doesn't make it (as often

> happens), my guess is that Alex Trocchi (author of Cain's Book) is your

> mystery pornographer. He doesn't match up with all the details--he was

> Scottish, not American, and influenced the Beat scene in Venice, not

> SF--but he wrote a fair amount of cut-above porn and was associated with

> Olympia Press in Paris. The age is about right too, and I've learned

> from trying to track down the facts about him that he had a lot of fun

> re-inventing his own legend. He told his one-and-only biographer an

> incredible number of lies.

Maybe this is right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

"don't push me

cause I'm close

to the edge"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:05:30 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: tor kung

Can see why Trocci was suggested. He did a number of books for Olympia

but not that title as far as I can tell.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:17:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Herbert Huncke

I just heard that Herbert Huncke died this morning (Thursday). For

those who don't know, Huncke was a close friend of William S. Burroughs,

Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg during the days of their early adventures

together in New York City. He was their prototypical Times Square junkie/

hustler connection, the "real thing" that they (especially Burroughs) often

tried to emulate. He appeared in "On The Road" as the character named

Elmer Hassel (Sal and Dean are always wondering "Where's Elmer Hassel"),

and in "Junky" as the experienced drug-user Herman. According to Kerouac,

who first used the term "beat" to describe his literary generation, it was

Huncke who first introduced him to the word.

Like almost all friends of Ginsberg, Kerouac and Burroughs, Huncke became

a published writer after the beat phemonenon occurred. His story "Elsie

John," reprinted in Ann Charters collection "The Beat Reader," is a raw,

honest and fascinating piece. He also wrote an autobiography called

"Guilty of Everything."

He lived out his last years in the Chelsea Hotel in New York City. He

was taken to Beth Israel Hospital a few days ago, and that's where he

died this morning at 7:15.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

"don't push me

cause I'm close

to the edge"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:09:19 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke

Levi Asher wrote:

>

> I just heard that Herbert Huncke died this morning (Thursday).

This is sad news. Huncke was the Beatest of them all and a cool writer

to boot. He also has the dubious distinction of being the man who gave

Burroughs his first shot of junk.

Huncke came to my neighborhood, Wicker Park in Chicago, two or three

years ago to do a reading. I heard he stopped in at a hangout of mine,

Myopic Books, but I missed him. A friend told me he met him that weekend

because he knew the people with whom Huncke was staying. A one point,

the host asked Huncke if there was anything he would like. Huncke

replied, "How 'bout a blow job." This story is from my friend who was

there.

Two years ago I was browsing in an upscale used book store in Houston

when I spontaneously wondered to myself, "Gee, I wonder if Huncke's

autobiography is here?" I gasped as a hardcover edition of "Guilty of

Everything" with dustcover leaped into my field of vision, causing

everything surrounding it to go out of focus. As any bibliophile knows,

there's nothing quite like the rush of finding the rare and obscure

volume you are actually looking for at that moment. I bought the book

for ten bucks.

I've since read and enjoyed tremendously "Guilty of Everything". You

know how when you read Burroughs and you've heard his voice on tape and

you can't get that voice out of your head while you're reading? Well

it's the same with Huncke. His slow smirking drawl is a crucial aspect

of the reading experience.

The book has Huncke's versions of such incidents as his first meeting

with Burroughs, his arrest with Ginsberg in 1949, his time spent living

on Burroughs' farm in Texas, and that ill-fated drive he made with

Cassady and Burroughs from Texas to New York to try and sell Bill's

uncured weed. "Guilty of Everything" is an important volume in my

chronological reading of the published Beat Canon.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:17:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax speaks

There are two tapes that feature Kerouac reading from Dr. Sax. They have been

circulating the Kerouac "Underground" since 1965.

I. Kerouac/Cassady. San Jose 1952 or 1953. (See Charters Bibliography item

E-5):

a. Neal Cassady Reading from Proust. 3:39

b. "Foggy Day in London Town" 3:20

"Funny Valentine" 2:39

c. Kerouac reads from Dr. Sax 0:20

d. Improvised jazz riff by Kerouac 3:50

e. Kerouac reads funeral section from Dr. Sax; Cassady in background. 3:10

f. Kerouac and Cassady discuss Wm. Burroughs 1:00

2. Kerouac at Northport Long Island - 1964:

a. kerouac reads from Dr. Sax with Sinatra record playing in the background.

b. Kerouac reads from Old Angel Midnight and other poems, humming and singing

along to Sinatra record.

c. Kerouac reads from Dr Sax with Sinatra record playing in background.

(I do not know the length of time of each segment; I never bothered to time

them)

I hope this information is helpful -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:36:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Harms <tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax speaks

In-Reply-To: <960808191724_174525208@emout10.mail.aol.com>

> There are two tapes that feature Kerouac reading from Dr. Sax. They have been

> circulating the Kerouac "Underground" since 1965.

Any chance of tape tree cropping up on this list? The Rhino 'JK

Collection' is pretty good but this tape sound even better...

Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

"I got it all when I gave it back." N. Young

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 16:43:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax speaks

Great info.

Any info on how to get a hold of this.

I run the Kerouac speaks site and this would be a nice addition.

At 07:17 PM 8/8/96 -0400, you wrote:

>There are two tapes that feature Kerouac reading from Dr. Sax. They have been

>circulating the Kerouac "Underground" since 1965.

>

>I. Kerouac/Cassady. San Jose 1952 or 1953. (See Charters Bibliography item

>E-5):

>a. Neal Cassady Reading from Proust. 3:39

>b. "Foggy Day in London Town" 3:20

> "Funny Valentine" 2:39

>c. Kerouac reads from Dr. Sax 0:20

>d. Improvised jazz riff by Kerouac 3:50

>e. Kerouac reads funeral section from Dr. Sax; Cassady in background. 3:10

>f. Kerouac and Cassady discuss Wm. Burroughs 1:00

>

>2. Kerouac at Northport Long Island - 1964:

>a. kerouac reads from Dr. Sax with Sinatra record playing in the background.

>b. Kerouac reads from Old Angel Midnight and other poems, humming and singing

>along to Sinatra record.

>c. Kerouac reads from Dr Sax with Sinatra record playing in background.

>(I do not know the length of time of each segment; I never bothered to time

>them)

>

>I hope this information is helpful -

>

>Jeffrey Weinberg

>Water Row Books

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 09:40:07 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: huncke

I was sorry to learn of Huncke's death yesterday. Earlier posts have

nicely summed up his contribution to Beat literature. I had the good

fortune to do an interview with him for the Literary Denim several years

ago. He was, as today's New York Times obituary points out, gracious,

well-mannered, and a hell of a good story teller. I spoke briefly with

him in Lowell last October where he gave a wonderful reading at the

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac Conference. He will certainly be missed.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 12:16:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: huncke

Huncke's passing really is symbolic of the gradual, now almost total death of

a certain type of rough and tumble American culture that once flourished in

Times Square in NY, many places in Chicago, 3rd and Howard in SF, Market St.

in St. Louis and the Denver of Neil Cassidy's time...to name a few places in

time. I don't romanticize the world of Herbert Huncke. That would be a

mistake. It was often a cruel and seemingly hopeless world...a world where

freedom abounded but people often paid a pretty terrible price for it. It's

not my world to go on week long benders, to have the monkey of herion on your

back or even pushing the limits of sexual expermentation. But, I can't help

feeling that we have lost something important. I'll miss Herbert Huncke.

Jerry Garcia too.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:22:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sean McDonnell <smcdonne@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: huncke

In-Reply-To: <960809121617_452617710@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Howard Park"

at Aug 9, 96 12:16:18 pm

> Jerry Garcia too.

STERLING MORRISON too!

August is a cruel month!!!

s

--

"Everything depends.

Nothing is always.

Everything is sometimes

Nothing is everything."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:47:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Harms <tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Huncke's Death

If there's a funeral service, I wonder who'd all show up?

Do the remaining Beats even get along? I really can't see Gins and

Burroughs having much to say to each other anymore...

Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

"I got it all when I gave it back." N. Young

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:42:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Kerouac article

I was away for awhile so don't know if there was any discussion in this

group of Ralph Lombreglia's review of Ann Charters "Portable Kerouac"

and "Selected Letters" in the August "Atlantic Monthly" Thoughtful

analysis of Jack and his impact by a declared non-fan. Can be read at

http://www.theAtlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk.htm

In addition to some really insightful analysis of Jack the man,

Lombreglia writes rather interestingly on a topic we probably beat to

death last spring--the influence of booze and drugs on Jack's writing.

"Many writers deny that they have ever written a single word in any

condition other than stone-cold sobreity. At least some of them are

lying. Kerouac always admitted that he wrote while he was high.

"Selected Letters" confirms that he rarely wrote fiction except under

the influence of one substance or another--Benzedrine, marijuana, or

alcohol in his early years, mostly alcohol later on. For Kerouac,

literal intoxication provided both the physical rush that propelled him

through his long writing sessions and the freedom from his censorious

self--his internalization of his clannish, Old World family and

particularly of his mother, the ever-present 'Memere'."

Jim Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:32:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac article

Ralph L. a non-fan of Jack Kerouac?

Then he had us all fooled - After all, he was the co-director and co-producer

of the Viking Penguin CD-Rom, Jack Kerouac Romnibus. While he was doing

research and gathering materials for the CD-Rom, he pretended as if he was a

big fan of Jack's -

You mean he did the project just for the money?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:31:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: latest schedule Insomniacathon 96

RANT for the renaissance. The Eisenhower Center for American Studies,

The Majic Bus at University of New Orleans, and TRIBE present Voices

Without Restraint 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry INSOMNIACATHON 1996

at The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, The Mermaid Lounge, &

The Howlin Wolf Club August 16-18

PERFORMANCE Schedule (4th Draft)

Friday August 16

Contemporary Arts Center, 10AM to 10:30PM

900 Camp Street (Admission: Free)

10-10:30AM Univ of New Orleans Jazz Ensemble

10:30-10:45 Welcome & introduction by historian, author of THE MAJIC

BUS: An American Odyssey and INSOMNIACATHON host, DOUGLAS BRINKLEY

10:45-11:30 Poet E. ETHELBERT MILLER, director of Howard University's

African American Resource Center, reads with poets from YA/YA (Young

Artists/Young Aspirations)

11:30-1:30 RAMBLIN' JACK ELLIOTT, Grammy winning folk artist performs

and discusses his tours with Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan.

Performance and discussion of jazz, folk, & world music with composer

and poet DAVID AMRAM

1:30-2:30PM Discussion (Performance) of the music and poetry of the

Beats with ED SANDERS, lead singer for The Fugs and author of TALES OF

BEATNIK GLORY

2:30-3:30 Local Poetry Hour with Ralph Adamo, Dennis Formento, Leonard

Earl Johnson, Maxine Cassin, and Alex Rawls

3:30-5PM AMIRI BARAKA, poet and author of BLUES PEOPLE, & ROBERT PALMER,

author of DEEP BLUES, discuss the cultural significance of The Blues.

5-7PM TRIBE Magazine's Dangerous Variety Show (Kim Fowley M.C.)(16mm.

films courtesy of Zeitgeist Theater Experiments): CHRIS WADDINGTON,

POPPY Z. BRITE, RENE BROUSSARD, CHRIS ROSE, KALAMU YA SALAAM, JOHN

COLLINS & HIS PROMETHEAN TROUPE, GODIVA, FAST FOOD, BONE ALLEY, CHRIS

CHAMPAGNE, LEE GRUE

7-8PM ROBERT CREELEY discusses The Black Mountain School of Poetry

8-9PM JOHN SINCLAIR & THE BLUES SCHOLARS perform their unique brand of

blues/jazz infused poetry

9-10:30 Poetry reading: E. ETHELBERT MILLER, ROBERT CREELEY,

& AMIRI BARAKA

The Mermaid Lounge The Howlin' Wolf,

1100 Constance Street, 828 South Peters Street

10:30PM to 10AM 10:30PM to 2AM

504-524-4747 504-523-2551

(no cover) ($5 cover)

10:30-11:30PM THE WILD MAGNOLIAS 10:30-2 STORYVILLE (Texas

(Native American) Blues)

11:30-2 ALL THAT (Brass Funk Rap

NoWayToReallyDescribeNewOrleansInterRacialSoundsBand)

2-3:30AM COMPOST Peformers & SUSI K (Poets, Performers, Musicians from

NY, MA, LA)

3:30-4AM GOLDIELOX & FRIENDS (hiphop)

4-4:30 IMPALA SUPER (scruff punk)

4:30-5AM NEMO (poetry & sounds)

5-6AM poets: BRUCE BEROFF(KY), LORI TURNER(KY), MATTHEW OSBORN(KY),

REBEKAH REEVES(KY), MICHELLE FOWLER(KY), ANDREA RONEY(KY)

6-7AM poets: GUI STUART(KY), AMANDA HAMMONS(KY), LUKE BUCKMAN(KY), KEVIN

COOMBS(KY), DEBI COOMBS(KY), SETH COHEN(KY)

7-8AM poets: HEATHER KOLF(KY), J.B. WILSON(KY), REVERAND JAYNE

PRAXIS(KY), DEIRDRE SKAGGS(KY), JOHN HAGAN(KY), JEFF ECKMANN(KY)

8-9AM poets: WILL KOTHEIMER(KY), DANNY O'BRYAN(KY), ANNIE

McCLANAHAN(KY), RICH MARTIN(CT), MATT KOHN(NY), JORDAN GREEN(KY),

MICHAEL LEONARD(NY), CHRIS KUBICEK(FL), KENT FIELDING(AK), ERIK

LaPRADE(NY)

Saturday, August 17

Contemporary Arts Center

900 Camp Street, 10AM to 10:30PM

(admission free)

10-11AM Composer DAVID AMRAM discusses jazz poetry; performance by the

UNO Jazz Ensemble

11-12:30 Discussion and booksigning with GEORGE McGOVERN, 1972

Democratic Presidential Nominee and author of TERRY: MY DAUGHTER'S LIFE

AND DEATH STRUGGLE WITH ALCOHOLISM

12:30-1:30PM JAY McINERNEY, author of BRIGHT LIGHTS, BIG CITY discusses

contemporary literature and reads from his new book, THE LAST OF THE

SAVAGES

1:30-2PM Discussion on the Legacy of The Beats (& Performance) with

INSOMNIACATHON host RON WHITEHEAD, poet, publisher, & author of

I WILL NOT BOW DOWN

2-3PM Poetry & music by HERSCH SILVERMAN & CHANNEL NINE;

& LOUIS BICKETT and THE CULTURAL MUDDING RITUAL

3-4:30PM Premiere of THE CONEY ISLAND OF LAWRENCE FERLINGHETTI

documentary and discussion with filmmaker CHRIS FELVER

4:30-4:45 W. LORAN SMITH, poet, author of THE BOY WHO BECAME A BOOK

4:45-5:15 SUSI WOOD (folk, mountain)

5:15-5:30 FRANK MESSINA, poet, author of SONG FOR THE POET

5:30-6:30 TRIBE's Dangerous Variety Show (NICOLE BLACKMAN M.C.):

SPECIAL AGENT VICTOR IMPOSSIBLE'S CRUCHON de LAIT featuring:

THE RAMPARTS with MAD MARCUS, DELVIC and THE DELVIC RANCHEROS, THE

BASTARD SONS OF JOHN HENRY, PAN AMERICAN ALL-STARS, NINTH WARD FREAK

PARADE, TALL PAUL, THE NWWF - THE NINTH WARD WRESTLING FEDERATION

6:30-7PM Poetry readings by WILLIE SMITH and JIM McCRARY

7-7:30PM TOM PIAZZA reads from his new book, BLUES AND TROUBLE

7:30-8:30PM RICHARD HELL, founder of the seminal New York punk band

RICHARD HELL and THE VOIDOIDS, discusses his new book, GO NOW

8:30-10:30PM Readings by ANDREI CODRESCU, poet, social commentator, and

author of THE BLOOD COUNTESS

& JOHN RECHY, author of the 1963 bestseller CITY OF NIGHT and his

latest book OUR LADY OF BABYLON

The Howlin' Wolf

828 South Peters Street, 10:30PM to 10AM

($5 cover) 504-524-4747

10:30-11:30 CASEY CYR, RON WHITEHEAD, FRANK MESSINA, HERSCH SILVERMAN,

DAVID AMRAM, & FRIENDS

11:30-2 THE IGUANAS

12:30-1 TRIBE presents NICOLE BLACKMAN (NYC poetry diva performs during

THE IGUANAS' timeout)

2-2:10 WENDY-CHARLY LEMMON(spokenwordperformer)

2:10-3AM ELEVEN ELEVEN (newwavepunk)

3-4AM BLACK PIG LIBERATION FRONT (multimediabandoffutureherenow)

& GRAND PASSION (newwavepunk)

4-8AM OPEN MIC/OPEN STAGE (signups start round midnight)

8-9:30AM poetry: COTTON SEILER (KA), ALBERT KAUSCH (MA), KIRSTIN OGDEN

(AK), GENE SIMMONS (AK), AURORA LEE (LA), ANDY DI MICHELE (LA),

MICKEY HESS (KY)

9:30-10AM HERSCH SILVERMAN & CHANNEL NINE

plus LOUIS BICKETT & THE CULTURAL MUDDING RITUAL

INSOMNIACATHON 1996 produced by RON WHITEHEAD for DOUGLAS BRINKLEY

Special Thanks to LEE LEVERT for diligently directing the New Orleans

Event Headquarters from The Eisenhower Center. This event wouldn't have

happened without her hard work. Plus Thanks to Molly Wright, the entire

Eisenhower Center staff, plus the 25 students/poets who traveled &

worked with Ron Whitehead, Kent Fielding, & the literary renaissance to

help produce INSOMNIACATHON 1996. Also thanks to Rand Ragusa, Alex

Beard, Kevin Lezak, George "Hutch" Hutchinson, Peter Orr, John

Fitzgerald, & the entire TRIBE staff for helping make this event happen.

Thanks also go to Metropolitan College at University of New Orleans, The

Louisiana Endowment for The Humanities, Tennessee Williams Festival,

Windsor Court Hotel, Hilton Riverside Hotel, Le pavillon Hotel, Le

Meridien Hotel, Hampton Inn, Hotel Inter-Continental, EXQUISITE CORPSE

Magazine, The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, The Mermaid Lounge,

The Howlin Wolf Club, The New Orleans Poetry Forum, The City of New

Orleans.

Event Sponsors: The Eisenhower Center for American Studies, The Majic

Bus at The University of New Orleans, the literary renaissance,

White Fields Press, & TRIBE Magazine.

2:50-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:56:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Hunke funeral arraignments??????????

If anyone knows the funeral details could you please post them to the list.

There was nothing about that in the New York Times only an article about

Hunke's life. Maybe it will be a private service. Thanks Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:17:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac article

Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

>

> Ralph L. a non-fan of Jack Kerouac?

>This is his own description, a perhaps innaccurate. He describes

himself as not a K. "fanatic" in acknowledging his participation in the

CD ROM project in which Charters was involved. Perhaps he sees himself

as somewhat more objective than nuts like those of us who subscribe to

this list.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:37:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Greenberg <SGreenb622@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac story

In one of Kerouac's letters he mentions a 10,000-word short story he'd just

finished called "cityCityCITY." Does anyone know if it was ever published?

Was it published with the same title? Where can I get it?

-Scott G.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 23:31:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac story

Scott and others:

cityCityCITY, Kerouac's science fiction vision of the future, has been added

to the revised edition of Good Blonde & Others, Edited by Don Allen, Grey Fox

Press, 1994.

cityCityCITY was first published as "The Electrocution," in the men's mag,

NUGGET, August 1959; reprinted as CITYCitycity in The Moderns, edited by

Leroi Jones, Corinth Books, 1963.

We have Good Blonde & Others in stock. 217 pgs. Paper ed.

Contact me for further information.

Hope this information proves helpful -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

Fax 508-229-0885

EMail Waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:08:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hunke funeral arraignments??????????

Phil wrote:

*****If anyone knows the funeral details could you please post them to the

list.

There was nothing about that in the New York Times only an article about

Hunke's life. Maybe it will be a private service. Thanks Phil*****

I'm sure that Mr. Huncke was "arraigned" many times in his life, but let's

hope that he won't be arraigned at his own funeral.

If that was a slip, it was a good one. If that was an attempt to poke a

little fun, it was a good one too.

RIP Herbert Huncke.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:33:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Justin Stone @Bourque96 I hope I got it right? Nice pages!"

<Bourque96@AOL.COM>

Subject: Get me off this list

Please get me off this list I can't stand it anymore

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:16:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Hunke funeral arraignments??????????

At 09:08 AM 8/12/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Phil wrote:

>

>*****If anyone knows the funeral details could you please post them to the

>list.

>There was nothing about that in the New York Times only an article about

>Hunke's life. Maybe it will be a private service. Thanks Phil*****

>

>I'm sure that Mr. Huncke was "arraigned" many times in his life, but let's

>hope that he won't be arraigned at his own funeral.

>

>If that was a slip, it was a good one. If that was an attempt to poke a

>little fun, it was a good one too.

>

>RIP Herbert Huncke.

>

>William Miller

>

>Sorry it was an error do to the wonders of spell check I spelled

arrangements without the e and the spell check substituted arraignments and

I didn't even notice it. I could never spell.Sorry. Has anyone heard

anything about his funeral SERVICE? Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:58:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sean McDonnell <smcdonne@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Get me off this list

In-Reply-To: <960812094805_454378663@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "Bourque96 I

hope I got it right? Nice pages!" at Aug 12, 96 10:33:12 am

>

> Please get me off this list I can't stand it anymore

>

which part can't you stand?

--

"Everything depends.

Nothing is always.

Everything is sometimes

Nothing is everything."

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:06:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Beat TV Special

Found this on rec.music.dylan everyone's favourite Bob Dylan forum:

rec.music.dylan #61537 (20 + 122 more) (1)

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Content-Type: Text/plain

Date: Fri Aug 09 08:14:38 EDT 1996

From: Margaret Andreas <U0A75@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>

[1] Beats on TV

Lines: 13

No idea if this has Bob-content or not,

but our local Public Broadcasting System has

this show scheduled for Sunday night,

August 25, at 9:30 pm.

(That's Channel 13 in Pittsburgh)

_THE BEAT GENERATION_: An American Dream

"Steve Allen hosts this look at group of writers

who questioned America's post-war values.

Interviews include Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg,

Le Roi Jones, William

Burroughs."

Macarina (er, sorry)

MARGUERITA

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:48:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke

I met Huncke a few times in Allen's kitchen while I worked on cataloging AGs

tapes and videos for Columbia. Once he visited while I was woringk on the tapes

and we both had very bad colds. I felt sorry for myself, feeling like I might

flop over and die from this strain of NYC flu. But Huncke was still going on

strong. He looked and sounded awful but kept saying, "Ah, I'm surivor, it'll

take more than this to kill me off! I looked at him, old and battered (and this

was ten years ago), and I said to myself, 'this man IS a survivor!

The times I met huncke alawys presented him as a gnerous, kind and polite

character with a dry sense of humor. Since that early meeting, when I feel low

I can hear Hunckes voice in my ear..."I'm a survivor, ain't you?

Though needless to say, this ancient Junky was indeed "Guilty of Everything."

I hope is surving somewhere good righgt now, perhaps chewing mushrooms with

Leary

Sorry to herar the news...

Dave B. in Gambier, Ohio

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:00:22 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax speaks

I have a dub of that Kerouac recording in which he sings with a Frank Sinatra

record in the background. Makes for a very haunting piece. I think this one had

something to do with Jerry Nuemen. Not the best quality but good enough. If you

want to contact me and send me a blank tape I will dub one for anyone who asks.

(Of course money will not change hands and the tapes must be destroyed beneath

a full moon to satisfy the copywrite club.)

Let me know! Thanks,

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:34:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Gargan on Huncke/Denim

BG says:

> I had the good fortune to do an interview with him for the Literary Denim

several years

>ago. . . . . .

>

Don't know, Bill, if I ever did indicate what a fine job you did getting

Huncke's personality out. --Best piece in that little book (1984), an

American classic. Thx. . . .

--VJ Eaton, the denim

\|//

(o o)

-------------------------------oOO--( )--OOo---------------------------------

vj@primenet.com | If you're not living on the edge . . . .

Tempe, AZ | . . . You're taking up too much room.

|

------------------------------ooooO---Ooooo---------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:59:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Tribe

Hello Folks.

William Miller here.

I just wanted you all to know about a magazine I found the other day called

"Tribe". The focus is, of all things, "New Orleans style-culture-ideas". I

have the August issue in front of me.

Burroughs is on the cover.

There is an interview with Lawrence Ferlinghetti inside.

Also an interview with William Burroughs.

There is a "Beat for Dummies" family tree / flowchart inside.

A couple of other beat-related articles inside, relating to the

Insomniacathon, or whatever that thing is called.

The magazine generally looks (judging by the non-beat lit material) pretty

tacky, but this is a must (I think) -- A new Orleans regional rag with a

focus on this Beat Event.....

If you can't get _Tribe_ where you are, but you'd like a copy, just e-mail me

directly.

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 06:31:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Tribe

In-Reply-To: <960813085935_455248863@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "William

Miller" at Aug 13, 96 08:59:35 am

> If you can't get _Tribe_ where you are, but you'd like a copy, just e-mail me

> directly.

I want one -- but what's your email address? (For some reason

return addresses never show up for me on this list, though they

do on others.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

"don't push me

cause I'm close

to the edge"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:07:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Patrick G Blaine <pgbst4+@PITT.EDU>

Subject: unsubscribe

In-Reply-To: <960813085935_455248863@emout13.mail.aol.com>

sorry to do it this way, but i'm pressed for time and have an inbox w/

about 1000 messages. i enjoyed the blist when i had time to read it, and

found quite a few things to explore in my spare time. i hope to rejoin

the list at my new school (uiowa). thanks to everyone for a most

enlightening six months.

pAt blaine

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:44:46 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: ADRIAN CHARLES BLACKBURN <q6rych66@DEAKIN.EDU.AU>

Subject: Tribe Subscribe; On the road

Comments: To: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>, brooklyn@netcom.com

In-Reply-To: <199608131331.GAA14847@netcom.netcom.com>

I'm not sure where this message will end up, apologies if everyone gets

this.

William Miller - Ditto the tribe email address request.

To Levi Asher I just read your on the road audition piece, a cack, and I

didn't even know it was in the works. How has the project progressed, ie

how long ago was the audition?; and has Coppola done aught about it since?

Also has anyone seen the On the road play done a couple of years ago? It

was performed in Melbourne and England (I think). I saw it at St Martins

with a hootin crowd.

Yrs, Aab Black q6rych66@deakin.edu.au

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:14:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Huncke's Death

Ginsberg and Burroughs are still the best of friends, Allen has just spent a

week with him in Kansas. Burroughs isn't in good enough health to travel to

a memorial service in New York, though.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:21:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Tribe

Bill Morgan here:

Could you send me the address on Tribe? I'd like to get a copy because of

the Ferlinghetti interview for my continuing bibliography.

Thanks,

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:17:22 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burrough's health

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:14:09 -0400

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

Subject: Re: Huncke's Death

Ginsberg and Burroughs are still the best of friends, Allen has just spent a

week with him in Kansas. Burroughs isn't in good enough health to travel to

a memorial service in New York, though.

William et al

So what's the score with Burrough's health? How's he doing? Anyone know?

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:09:07 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Kinsey/Beats

Dear gang,

While channel-surfing last night I happened upon A&E's Biography of Dr.

Alfred Kinsey, the great sex researcher. I thought to myself, "Gee, I

wonder if..." and YES! Before the his picture even appeared on the

screen I recognized THAT VOICE! None other than the late Mr. HERBERT

HUNCKE himself relating the anecdote of his meeting and subsequent

interview with Dr. Kinsey in the late 1940s. He dropped a few names of

people to whom he introduced Dr. Kinsey for the purposes of interviews,

among whom was WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS whose noble talking head thence

appeared on my television screen, wryly reminiscing about the good

doctor.

I thought this was good, Beat TV (BTV?). I welcomed the appearance of

Huncke's wiry, smoking, smirking person on cable TV so soon after his

demise. Burroughs was in good form, wearing his lapel pin from the

Academy of Arts and Letters, holding back a smile.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

P.S. To anyone interested in the life and work of Dr. Kinsey I

enthusiastically recommend "Dr. Kinsey and the Institute for Sex

Research" by Wardell Pomeroy. Written by one of Kinsey's co-authors of

"Sexual Behavior in the Human Male", this book is an insider's account

of the research, interviewing techniques, data analysis, writing,

publishing and subsequent controversy of that historic volume.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:57:16 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Dean Moriarty song lyrics

The saga of the Beats in modern music continues. Check out a great song by

folk singer songwriter Eric Taylor, found on his self-titled 1995 CD:

Dean Moriarty

Dean Moriarty don't live here no more

He's off in California, works in a liquor store

Where it's two packs of cigarettes and one half a pint

And he's back to his room on the Mexican side

Says he's through with the railroad freight-car line

The fight between the moon and the lantern light

Says I'm goin' cross country but I might come back

But I'm stickin' to the highway, to hell with the tracks

Chorus:

I can't take what you may give me

I've always wanted more

My Mercury hummin' road may put me

To sleep outside your door

I got a brand new baby, she's got a new pair of shoes

He drivin' somebody's car but he don't know whose

Been up all night but it don't show

Won twenty-five dollars in the hammer throw

Three-fingered guitar and a saxophone bites

Jack's been reading her poetry, he's been spillin' her wine

Her hair's so pretty, she smells like Juicy Fruit gum

Her old man's the black guy on the congo drums

Chorus

Maybe he should call her, he just ain't got the dough

Maybe walk on outside and check the radio

It's playin' her song but it just ain't his

Man like him's got no business with the wife and the kids

It's the last of the red wine from a night full of thrill

It's a coast to the bottom of a Frisco hill

How can a body begrudge another body a ride?

I didn't steal your car, man, I just borrowed it a while

Chorus

(Copyright Eric Taylor, 1995. Reprinted without permission)

Incidentally, Taylor seems to be a literary kind of guy. Another song

featured on the CD is titled "Hemingway's Shotgun"...

Regards,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:52:23 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Kinsey/Beats

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:09:07 +0000 from

<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

On Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:09:07 +0000 John W. Hasbrouck said:

>Dear gang,

>

>While channel-surfing last night I happened upon A&E's Biography of Dr.

>Alfred Kinsey, the great sex researcher. I thought to myself, "Gee, I

>wonder if..." and YES! Before the his picture even appeared on the

>screen I recognized THAT VOICE! None other than the late Mr. HERBERT

>HUNCKE himself relating the anecdote of his meeting and subsequent

>interview with Dr. Kinsey in the late 1940s. He dropped a few names of

>people to whom he introduced Dr. Kinsey for the purposes of interviews,

>among whom was WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS whose noble talking head thence

>appeared on my television screen, wryly reminiscing about the good

>doctor.

>

>I thought this was good, Beat TV (BTV?). I welcomed the appearance of

>Huncke's wiry, smoking, smirking person on cable TV so soon after his

>demise. Burroughs was in good form, wearing his lapel pin from the

>Academy of Arts and Letters, holding back a smile.

>

>John Hasbrouck

>Chicago

>

>P.S. To anyone interested in the life and work of Dr. Kinsey I

>enthusiastically recommend "Dr. Kinsey and the Institute for Sex

>Research" by Wardell Pomeroy. Written by one of Kinsey's co-authors of

>"Sexual Behavior in the Human Male", this book is an insider's account

>of the research, interviewing techniques, data analysis, writing,

>publishing and subsequent controversy of that historic volume.

I second John's recommendation. It's an informative and readable volume.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:08:04 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Bath

Since there was so much interest in Tribe, I thought I'd let you all

know about Bath, a free journal distributed in New York City. Outside

NYC, subs are $24 a year or $4 an issue. The August 1996 issue features

a 4 page article(including 2 pages of photos) on "A Week in Kerouac's

Lowell 1977" by Jimmy Wong. Wong ishard on Lowell and I think he's off

base. He describes Lowell as an unfriendly place and complains about

the lack of hotels in the downtown area. My friend Mike McLean and I

visited Lowell several years earlier (like Wong by Greyhound) and found

a hotel right in downtown Lowell on Bridge Street--I think it was called

the Surf Hotel. It wasn't fancy but it was convenient and inexpensive

at the time. We found the people in Lowell friendly and generally

helpful, although many knew nothing of Kerouac back in 1973 or 1974.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:40:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMGATE.TRACOR.COM>

Subject: Hunke et al

It really is amazing that any of these guys are around at all now much

less in their eighties.

I read Hunke's contribution to The Portable Beat Reader and wasn't

knocked out by his writing. It was pretty much reportage, yet I could

sense that he was trying to communicate some message or moral in the

writing. The moral was too esoteric for most, or perhaps you had to

be there to appreciate it, or maybe I need to read some more of his

stuff.

He certainly was seminal to the Beats just by association with

Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg. He was truly a historical figure

among the Beat originators.

Can you think of a more romanticized

reallifetimessquarenewyorkjunkiehipster?

Whoever he was, he seemed to be the real deal.

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 18:49:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Bath

At 12:08 PM 8/14/96 EDT, you wrote:

>Since there was so much interest in Tribe, I thought I'd let you all

>know about Bath, a free journal distributed in New York City. Outside

>NYC, subs are $24 a year or $4 an issue. The August 1996 issue features

>a 4 page article(including 2 pages of photos) on "A Week in Kerouac's

>Lowell 1977" by Jimmy Wong. Wong ishard on Lowell and I think he's off

>base. He describes Lowell as an unfriendly place and complains about

>the lack of hotels in the downtown area. My friend Mike McLean and I

>visited Lowell several years earlier (like Wong by Greyhound) and found

>a hotel right in downtown Lowell on Bridge Street--I think it was called

>the Surf Hotel. It wasn't fancy but it was convenient and inexpensive

>at the time. We found the people in Lowell friendly and generally

>helpful, although many knew nothing of Kerouac back in 1973 or 1974.

>

>I live in Lowell and the Lowell of 1977 and the Lowell of 1996 are like

night and day in comparison. Lowell has gone through an amazing transition

and has turned around so much as to be a model for other cities in this

country. Largely in part to the fact that they have a super police chief and

politicians like Paul Tsongas and others who have faith and pride in their

city and never gave up on it. It also has a hard working South-East Asian

population that brings a wonderful culture and many businesses into the

city. I wish Jack Kerouac was around to see all the Buddhist Temples and

culture that is in the city of Lowell now. He would be proud of what has

become of Lowell. By the way the Surf hotel if it could be called a hotel

was always a dump and a shit hole. Lowell has a huge Shereton right downtown

on the canal and it is a very nice place to stay and there are a lot of new

clubs downtown. It's becoming a happening place. Ask any of the

approximately 150,000 people that came to the Lowell folk festival this

year. Why Bruce Springstein is even coming to the Lowell Auditorium in the

fall if you can believe that. Phil Chaput- lifelong (almost) resident of

Lowell . *LOWELL PRIDE*

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:38:59 U

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Kuhn, Rick" <rick_kuhn@MSMAIL-GW.WVMCCD.CC.CA.US>

Subject: FW: Insecurity kills!

(Third try sending. Sorry for any dupes...er, tripes?)

The actual address of The Atlantic Monthly article is

<http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.htm> -- and very

good it is, too. Thanks Jim.

So Phil, are the "Projects" in Watertown (where I was born in '51 and lived

'til '62) yuppie heaven now too? (Who am I to talk, sitting five miles from

Los Gatos?!)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:29:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MARILYN SOUDERS <NEWI05B@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: Bath

Yeah, but Mr. Wong is probably a spring-water-drinking new ager while

you and McLean either got to know the local folks down at the pub or

else you were so soused already that you thought they were being nice

to you.

Did I tell you already about some of the Fall faculty at Pratt: Kaye

Cassell, Tony C. and Larry Brandwein (teaching administration!) Oy

veh!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:29:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Tribe Subscribe; On the road (fwd)

> To Levi Asher I just read your on the road audition piece, a cack, and I

> didn't even know it was in the works. How has the project progressed, ie

> how long ago was the audition?; and has Coppola done aught about it since?

This is a mystery to me. Last I heard Coppola's son was going to

direct it. I know Francis Ford C is still involved in the concept

one way or another. I'm basically hoping the idea stays in

purgatory where it probably belongs.

I did get a sneak peek at one version of a screenplay about a year

ago. It wasn't too obnoxious. Very oriented towards Neal/Dean. No

Mexican Girl at all. Overall: I didn't like it.

> Also has anyone seen the On the road play done a couple of years ago? It

> was performed in Melbourne and England (I think). I saw it at St Martins

> with a hootin crowd.

I never heard of this, sounds cool though!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

"don't push me

cause I'm close

to the edge"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:39:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: "Wholly Communion"

I was wondering if anyone has knowledge of

where I could get a video/audio copy of this film:

"Wholly Communion" (Lorimar, 1965)

The reading at the Royal Albert Hall in early

June of '65, featuring Ginsberg, Corso, Ferlinghetti,

and other local London poets.

Privately e-mail me please.

Thanx,

Mike <cake@ionline.net>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 05:06:17 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: dr kinsey

>Dear gang,

>While channel-surfing last night I happened upon A&E's Biography of Dr.

>Alfred Kinsey, the great sex researcher. I thought to myself, "Gee, I

>wonder if..." and YES! Before the his picture even appeared on the

>screen I recognized THAT VOICE! None other than the late Mr. HERBERT

>HUNCKE himself relating the anecdote of his meeting and subsequent

>interview with Dr. Kinsey in the late 1940s. He dropped a few names of

>people to whom he introduced Dr. Kinsey for the purposes of interviews,

>among whom was WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS whose noble talking head thence

>appeared on my television screen, wryly reminiscing about the good

>doctor.

>I thought this was good, Beat TV (BTV?). I welcomed the appearance of

>Huncke's wiry, smoking, smirking person on cable TV so soon after his

>demise. Burroughs was in good form, wearing his lapel pin from the

>Academy of Arts and Letters, holding back a smile.

>John Hasbrouck

>Chicago

>P.S. To anyone interested in the life and work of Dr. Kinsey I

>enthusiastically recommend "Dr. Kinsey and the Institute for Sex

>Research" by Wardell Pomeroy. Written by one of Kinsey's co-authors of

>"Sexual Behavior in the Human Male", this book is an insider's account

>of the research, interviewing techniques, data analysis, writing,

>publishing and subsequent controversy of that historic volume.

john, this program was televised in the uk early april. here's a copy of the

e-mail i sent on 04/04/96.

*****

just been watching a documentary on tv titled 'reputations: alfred kinsey - the

man who invented modern sex'. an american scientist who conducted extensive

research into men & women's sexual behaviour. the documentary included

interviews with a certain herbet hunke & william burroughs. they were

interviewed in a section concerned with homosexuality in chicago & new york.

herbet hunke admitted to sexual relations with men. when asked if he were

homosexual he denied it. when asked why he simply said 'well its just sex!'.

william burroughs mentioned the types who were interviewed...petty criminals,

prostitutes etc. although he couldn't quite remember which year he was

interviewed!

just thought you'd all like to know...

incidentley, after his books (sexual behaviour in the human male & female) were

published laws against homosexuality were dropped, divorces were easier to get

and the sexual revolution of 50's america started.

anyone on this list around at that time? i think it bears some relevance to how

the beats viewed sex from the 'inside looking out' as well as the 'outside

looking in' (if you know what i mean).

joe

***** end copy

since then i've re-read 'on the road' & kerouac actually mentions dr kinsey &

the interviews. unfortunately a friend has my copy so i can't give page numbers

but it's definetly in there.

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:47:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Bath

> . . .I live in Lowell and the Lowell of 1977 and the Lowell of 1996 are like

>night and day in comparison. Lowell has gone through an amazing transition

>and has turned around so much as to be a model for other cities in this

>country. . . Ask any of the approximately 150,000 people that came to the

>>Lowell folk festival this year.

I was one of those people, and I can attest to what Phil Chaput says. I

went there solely to check out the Kerouac related events, but found myself

enjoying the entire festival. The booths and the crowds were composed of a

multitude of ethnic groups, but they mingled unselfconsciously without the

suspicious sidelong glances I'm so used to here in Hartford. My wife and I

stayed all day and into the evening, and we never heard a harsh word (nor,

strangely, a crying child).

I think it's a clean and interesting town with a diverse population, and I

wouldn't mind living there myself.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:17:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Tribe

Folks --

I received MANY requests for my copies of Tribe magazine. Many more than I

can fill, unfortunately. I've sent responses to the earliest responders --

you know who you are.

Others: if any of these chosen few do not claim their magazines, I'll let you

know. I'm sorry that I didn't have more on hand.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:04:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Arnold/CAM/Lotus

<Andrew_Arnold/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@CRD.LOTUS.COM>

Subject: On the Road Movie

>Last I heard Coppola's son was going to

>direct it. I know Francis Ford C is still involved in the concept

>one way or another. I'm basically hoping the idea stays in

>purgatory where it probably belongs.

I've always thought that the only way to do On The Road as a movie

would be through animation. This would allow for the fluidity and freeform,

expressionist style that made the book so important.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:05:05 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Arnold/CAM/Lotus

<Andrew_Arnold/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@CRD.LOTUS.COM>

Subject: Lowell Is Cool

Having visited Lowell a number of times for both

Kerouac festivals and the Folk festivals, I can confidently

say that Lowell is the coolest city in Mass.

Between its ethnic mix, and its preservation of the milltown

feel, with appropriate renovation and little gentrification, it makes

for a delightful daytrip.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:36:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Tribe mag address

For all who are curious:

Tribe mega-zine is published monthly by big mouth media inc.

2042 magazine street

new orleans La

70130

504.524.5200

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:50:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve_Lescure@MAIL.AMSINC.COM

Subject: Re: How to subscribe

Comments: To: beat-l%cunyvm.BITNET@uunet.uu.net

can someone give me the address for subscribing to this list.

Thanks.

steve_lescure@mail.amsinc.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:27:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>

Subject: {IN THE LIST}

Comments: To: steve_lescure@mail.amsinc.com

Comments: cc: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@ICINECA.CINECA.IT

Steve,

if this message come to my email

you are already in the list.

...like tears in the rain.

------------------------------------------------

Rinaldo RASA, v.Morlaiter 2, 30173 Venice, Italy

--- voice:(041)5317058, email: rasa@gpnet.it ---

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:22:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: MARILYN SOUDERS <NEWI05B@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: Bath

bill,

i received back a notice that my response to you was distributed on

the Beat-L bb. i noticed this not when i replied to what i thought

was your private queue so i was quite free in opining about the

prissy drinking habits of mr. wang vis a vis yours and mclean's.

sorry if people from the betty ford center spirit you away.

btw, now peter's wife is on the job market so if you see any cuny

listings, forward them to me, OK?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:49:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: FW: Insecurity kills!

At 05:38 PM 8/14/96 U, you wrote:

>(Third try sending. Sorry for any dupes...er, tripes?)

>

>The actual address of The Atlantic Monthly article is

><http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.htm> -- and very

>good it is, too. Thanks Jim.

>

>So Phil, are the "Projects" in Watertown (where I was born in '51 and lived

>'til '62) yuppie heaven now too? (Who am I to talk, sitting five miles from

>Los Gatos?!)

>

>I'm afraid Watertown and the projects are what Jack's father once called

Lowell-----Stinktown USA

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:59:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Buddhism

An interesting question. Jack had been called the master when it came to

Buddhism back in the Dharma Beat days and hanging with Snyder, Whalen,

Ginsberg and all. My question is, who learned what from who? Was Jack into

Buddhism before those guys or vica versa? Who was into it the most and who

taught who the most? I know Jack started reading about the Buddha early by

getting into Thoureau and Emerson but I wonder when he got real serious and

if Scripture of the Golden Eternity was the closest he ever came to nirvana.

Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:07:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>

Subject: {to anybody}

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@ICINECA.CINECA.IT

Comments: cc: Philzi@TIAC.NET

Vapid in the anything?

Am I in the list?

Does anybody have received

this message?

Please give some feedback,

also privately.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

.\.

...like tears in the rain

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

rasa@gpnet.it

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

thanks a lot

friends

\\\\\\\\

------------------------------------------------

Rinaldo RASA, v.Morlaiter 2, 30173 Venice, Italy

--- voice:(041)5317058 email: rasa@gpnet.it ---

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:38:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMGATE.TRACOR.COM>

Subject: Buddhism

Phil,

My vote would be for Gary Snyder. I'm sure his

farmerintellectualmysticism intrigued Jack, and as we all know, Jack

was quick to morph into those who intrigued him.

I can't agree that Jack was a master at Buddhism. I'm sure that he

immersed himself in the philosophy, but like so many, it was just an R

and R spot after the drinks started to taste bad.

I know that Phil Whalen is a Zen master, but unfortunately I don't

know much about him. I'll resort to my Portable Beat Reader for a

quick one.

I think Jack always had the guiltconflict of Catholicism and Buddhism

going on in his head, and at the end of his life regretted his

straying from Catholicism.

But certainly, it was Jack introduced us to the Dharma Beat, and a lot

of us have been dancing to it since.

Satori: I think I just realized why I love the guy.

Thanks Jack.

Ron Rodgers

Rodgers@tracor-a4.ccmgate.tracor.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:14:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Bath

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:22:59 -0500 from

<NEWI05B@PRODIGY.COM>

Frankly, I doubt that anyone will even notice your slanderous character assasin

ation of myself and that paragon of sobriety, Michael Brian McLean. And certai

nly no one can give a hoot about the goings on at Pratt. Everyone has hit the

wrong button sometime. But you always have to be on the alert when you reply t

o a message. I once repliedrather intemperately to a memo of Barbra's that had

been forwarded to me and instead of the reply going to the forwarder it went t

o her. Oops!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:27:21 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Goofs!

A thousand apologies to everyone on the list. I was chastising my

friend Marilyfor not paying attention to where her e-mail was going,

when I inadvertently hitthe wrong button myself!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:33:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: How to subscribe

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:50:21 EST from

<Steve_Lescure@MAIL.AMSINC.COM>

Easy to sign on. Simply send an e-mail message to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. L

eave the subject line blank. In the body of your mail, type subscribe Beat-L

first name last name.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:38:43 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET> "Buddhism" (Aug 15, 11:59pm)

yass, gs certainly got jack into the whole buddhism, zen gig. at gary's urging

the Scripture of the Golden Eternity was cranked out. the time they spent

together on firewatch in the northwest solidified jack's being drawn into the

buddhist concept...then. i think jack was drawn to gary's peace and humility.

as ron pointed out, it was merely a chapter in jack's life, for he totally

withdrew from buddhism and resorted to his catholocism later in life. that

guilt riddled catholic bringing up is a tough bug to get around and behind, i

guess. great read for the topic is Big Sky Mind, Buddhism and the Beat

Generation.

--

--

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:33:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Stephen Davis <jd4716@NANDO.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

In-Reply-To: <2146C590.1669@tracor-a4.ccmgate.tracor.com>

> I can't agree that Jack was a master at Buddhism. I'm sure that he

> immersed himself in the philosophy, but like so many, it was just an R

> and R spot after the drinks started to taste bad.

I've got to both agree and disagree with you here. While I've never seen

Jack as master Buddihist either, I do think that he did an incredible job

of creating his own religion; sort of a merger between budhism and

catholicism. I must say that I really think Jack saw his spiritual quest

as more than "R&R", to me his never ending question for "the truth" is

what makes him so endering. For any of you that have not read it, i

would *STRONGLY* encourage you to read _Desolation Angels_. Its my

favorite of all of Jack's books and it seems to center around the Beat

attitudes towards spirituality.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:39:47 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

I think that some accuracy is in order here. Gary Snyder did not get

Kerouac interested in Buddhism.

Kerouac became interested in Buddhism in '53 or '54 or so. His instigation

was the Cassady's interest in Edgar Cayce. These sort of things happen in

life. When a good friend of mine became a born again Christian I was

inspired to match his enthusiam with a furhter mor serious study of Zen

buddhism and we traded many letters. I think Kerouac's initial interest

began as a reaction to the Cayce influence on his best friends, where he

didn't buy into cayce lock stock and barrel like Carolyn and Neal, but he

did open up to the "eastern" concepts being bandied about and took to doing

his own study. I think he initially may have read various books on the

subject at the San Jose library when he was living in Los Gatos with the

Cassadys. I also remember hearing that he read french books about Buddhism

that he was able to find. The Buddhist Bible by Goddard is also mentioned

as a source book he used.

And Ginsberg has said that at first he didn't care much about Jack's new

obsession or field of study. Ginsberg didn't embrace too much until the

Berkeley SF '55 scene that is written about in the Dharma Bums.

Kerouac's notes on Buddhism that he began to keep were begun I think before

he met Snyder and the others, but it is true that meeting Snyder and a bunch

of others that were into Buddhism inspired his works like Scripture of the

Golden eternity and were written then.

So Kerouac got into Buddhsim before he met Snyder, Whalen and others. If

you remember one anecdote, shortly after Kerouac met the Berkely group, at

Kenneth rexroth's house Kerouac talked about Buddhism and Rexroth put him

down saying everyone in SF was all ready a Buddhist.

Kerouac's initial inspiration to study Buddhism as a reaction to the

Cassady's more new fangled new-agey Cayce reflects Kerouacs basic

conservatism. He went to the source. He never considered himself a Zen

Buddhist even but a traditional Buddhist. In terms of catholicism and

Buddhism, I see so many ritualisitic similarities between traditional

catholicism and traditional buddhsim it is amazing. I wrote something about

this months ago (maybe more) to this group using my friend's Catholic

wedding and Mother-in-laws traditional Buddhism.

If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject please

share them.

To all you Buddhists out there, happy Ghost month. Hope you burned your money.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:54:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism ...and Zen Catholicism!?

>Kerouac.... never considered himself a Zen

>Buddhist even but a traditional Buddhist. In terms of catholicism and

>Buddhism, I see so many ritualisitic similarities between traditional

>catholicism and traditional buddhsim it is amazing.

>.......If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject

please

>share them.

As a recent subscriber I've been watching and reading/listening.....and

enjoying.

I was struck by this exchange and by something in the Atlantic

Monthly article about Kerouac that described him as a prep school

kid...which prep school?

The one I went to was a Benedictine Monastery school in Rhode

Island, then Portsmouth Priory and now Portsmouth Abbey. With the

Benedictine influence there was already a similarity to things Buddhist; the

similarity was strengthened and emphasized by the fact that our Prior, Dom

Aelred Graham, O.S.B. who hailed from Ampleforth in England was very much

interested in Zen Bhuddism / Catholicism.

He wrote several books on the topic, now undoubtedly out-of-print.

Some friends of the school funded the construction of a beautiful little Zen

garden just outside of his office in a corner formed by the Monastery

building and our new chapel which was filled with 12th century stained glass

and other beautiful things Catholic. The garden was complete with a raked

sand pool.... very contemplative to sit there and hear the Gregorian chant

coming quietly through the thick fieldstone walls of the chapel.

I can see how Jack would have tried to synthesize something

influenced by the two faiths. ...but which prep school did he go to?

Another question of interest...can someone point me to anything - by

Kerouac or y others that discusses in any detail his specific bebop

interests beside the Slim Gaillard description in "On the Road". And

another...I have a recording of Jack's titled "Cockroach". Is that on the

recent CD of his work? ...anyone recognize it?

Best fun I've had in a while participating in this ...hope to be

more active in the future. How many of us are there?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"Nolo urinare contra ventum..." [old roman legion saying]

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:49:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Buddhism ...and Zen Catholicism!?

> I can see how Jack would have tried to synthesize something

>influenced by the two faiths. ...but which prep school did he go to?

>

He went to Horace Mann in New York. His attendence was part of his football

scholarship to Columbia. I don't know how it worked--ie if it was his first

year of college or his last year of High School.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:18:27 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

>at gary's urging

>the Scripture of the Golden Eternity was cranked out. the time they spent

>together on firewatch in the northwest solidified jack's being drawn into the

>buddhist concept

I don't think they spent time together on firewatch. Gary had done so

previously and when Kerouac was up there Snyder was already in Japan.

Best,

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:48:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: BURROUGHS

Dear all:

The following excerpt comes from Daniel Odier's 'The Job: Interviews With

William S. Burroughs":

Q: What is your relation to the Beat movement, with which you associate

yourself?...

A: I don't associate myself with it at all, and never have, either with

their objectives or their literary style. I have some close personal friends

among the Beat movement: Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso

are all close personal friends of many years standing, but were not doing at

all the same thing, either in writing or in outlook. You couldn't really find

four writers more different, more distinctive. It's simply a matter of juxta-

position rather than any actual association of literary styles or over all

objectives.'

I am writing a paper based around this exchange for the upcoming Beat

Symposium in Lowell, and I am interested in hearing the opinions of members

of the list on the following questions: Should Burroughs be considered a

Beat writer? If so, in what sense and why? If not, why not?

Best,

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:11:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs--

Hey David--

If Uncle Bill claims he aint beat, then my feeling is he aint beat--

And actually his thoughts abt "juxtapostion" & "association" make perfect

sense. The rest of it that we seem all too eager to buy into is publishers'

marketing schemes & cultural manipulation.

Do doubt a paper debating Bill's statement would be more "entertaining"

--but less authentically grounded in who he is & how he sees & chooses to

define himself.

Then again, be aware of the earlier thread here regarding the dingbat

quality of The Job's English translation....

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:39:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs--

In-Reply-To: <199608172011.QAA22007@wanda.phl.pond.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Lowe wrote:

> Then again, be aware of the earlier thread here regarding the dingbat

> quality of The Job's English translation....

I assume you're referring to one of my earlier postings (6/28), in which I

compared one of WSB's answers in The Job with his answer to the same

question in the original French edition--which were significantly

different.

But as far as I can tell, the english edition was not meant to be simply

a translation of the french, but a revision of it, so differences between

the two are not the result of a faulty translation. And at any rate,

there shouldn't be any question of translation into english anyway,

since, again as far as I can tell, the interviews must have originally

been conducted in english, and then translated to french.

The passage here at issue (WSB's denial that he is a Beat)

is identical in both editions.

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"August finally came in with a blast that

shook my house and augured little

augusticity."

***

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:26:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: BURROUGHS

At 03:48 PM 8/17/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Dear all:

>The following excerpt comes from Daniel Odier's 'The Job: Interviews With

>William S. Burroughs":

>Q: What is your relation to the Beat movement, with which you associate

>yourself?...

>A: I don't associate myself with it at all, and never have, either with

>their objectives or their literary style. I have some close personal friends

>among the Beat movement: Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso

>are all close personal friends of many years standing, but were not doing at

>all the same thing, either in writing or in outlook. You couldn't really find

>four writers more different, more distinctive. It's simply a matter of juxta-

>position rather than any actual association of literary styles or over all

>objectives.'

>

>I am writing a paper based around this exchange for the upcoming Beat

>Symposium in Lowell, and I am interested in hearing the opinions of members

>of the list on the following questions: Should Burroughs be considered a

>Beat writer? If so, in what sense and why? If not, why not?

>

>Best,

>David Schmid

>SUNY Buffalo

>

>I think he is guilty by association. I don't think the beats have an actual

objective or are they closely similar in style just the opposite I think

their individuality gives them their uniqueness and that's part of being

beat. This is in part what Burroughs is saying. Corso is very much as

distinctively different to Kerouac as Burroughs is to Kerouac or for that

matter to Ginsberg but never less he is one of the original beats as is

Burroughs as is Ginsberg. I mean beat is only a label. Look forward to

seeing you at the festivl.

Sometimes you feel like a beat sometimes you don't.

Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:10:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Burroughs again

Thanks to those who have responded thus far to my earlier query -- I'll

tell you what I think once I have all my notes sorted out. In the meantime,

I have another, much smaller, but related query: can anyone tell me the source

for the quote from Burroughs on page xxxi of Ann Charters' Introduction to

the Portable Beat Reader? Thanks

David

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:55:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "JAY S. GERTZ" <JGERTZ@UNCA.EDU>

Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville

Subject: Re: Beat Zen

Morning,

Regarding the current discussion on Beats and Zen. Two sources for more

info.: Alan Watts article on Beat Zen Square Zen in his book This is it. (Also

in other anthologies.) And a book that came out last year entitled Big sky

mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation by Carole Tonkinson, Riverhead Books.

Jay S. Gertz

Ramsey Library UNCA

(jgertz@unca.edu)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:19:44 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:39:47 -0700,

Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> wrote:

>I think that some accuracy is in order here. Gary Snyder did not get

>Kerouac interested in Buddhism.

>

>Kerouac became interested in Buddhism in '53 or '54 or so.

>

>If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject please

>share them.

>

In the "Selected Letters" of Kerouac the references to Buddhism start on p.

409. From Charters' intro to a letter of "early May 1954":

Thinking that Ginsberg had arrived from Mexico to stay with the Cassadys,

Kerouac wrote a long letter from his mother's apartment to relay the gossip

about their mutual friends on the East Coast and to tell Allen about his

discovery of Buddhism. Jack offered to send Allen "a 100-page account of

Buddhism" he had typed up from his reading notes in the San Jose Public

Library entitled "Some of the Dharma", but he cautioned Ginsberg that "it's

the only copy, we must take special care with it, right?"

>From another intro we know that "Kerouac arrived in San Jose in time for

Neal's twenty-eight birthday on February 8, 1954" (Selected Letters, p.

407), so Jack must have spent those three months reading and annotating

works like Goddard's "The Buddhist Bible" ("By far the best book because it

contains the Surangama Sutra and the Lankavatra Scripture, not to mention

the 11-page Diamond Sutra which is the last word" - Jack K., Selected

Letters, p. 415).

There are also references to Buddhism in letters from this period to

Carolyn Cassady, Malcolm Cowley, Robert Lax, Sterling Lord etc.

Regards,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher R. Smith"

<Christopher_R._Smith@VOYAGER.UMERES.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject: Kerouac and Buddhism

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@MAINE.maine.edu

I am suprized and delighted to read all the posts concerning

Kerouac and Buddhism. I am currently finishing up a masters thesis

here at the University of Maine about the Kerouac's interest in Eastern

philosophy and how that influenced his poetry. From what I have

researched, the person named gallagher from USC has most of the correct

information. Kerouac DID NOT get into Buddhism by anyone's direct

influence. He actually stumbled onto Ashvaghosha's Life of the Buddha

in the San Jose library when he was looking for information about

Hinduism to help him fuel his argument with Cassady against the ideas

of Edgar Casey. This was at the very end of 1953. I think the real

beginning of Kerouac's interest in Eastern philosophy came with his

identification with the Buddha as a religious figure. Like he did with

so many other people in his life, Kerouac tried to follow the story of

the Buddha like a boy follows an admired older brother.

I am saying "Eastern philsophy" in general here instead of just

Buddhism though because Kerouac's interests were not at all confined to

Buddhism. He was all over the map, really, mostly focusing on Mahayana

Buddhist texts like the Diamond Sutra and the Suragama Sutra. I have

to disagree with all of the people, also, who think Kerouac abandoned

Eastern thinking after 1960 or so. This is a popular belief, mostly

based on the cross-vision ending of Big Sur. Kerouac did turn back to

a more Catholic vocabulary toward the end. He painted crosses and

pictures of the pope, for heaven's sake. However, he never stopped

talking about the Buddha and about life being emptiness. Anyone who

doubts this can read his last interview in Paris review, 1968. He

retells the story of the Buddha during the interview, placing himself

and Ginsberg into the story. Yes, Eastern thinking was very much on

his mind all the way up to the end.

I contend that Eastern philsophy was a pre-existing belief

system that strikingly paralleled the direction of poetics during the

1950s. It was, and is, a foreign "postmodern" system of thinking that

was available to Kerouac when no other local postmodern system was

around. As Kerouac--and all the Beats and San Francisco poets--were

early promotors of what now some people call postmodern poetics.

De-centered, process-oriented, highly physical work.

Be on the lookout for a new book coming out by Kerouac (yes, BY

JACK KEROUAC) called Some of The Dharma. It is essentially the notes

he took on Eastern philosophy for about 10 years--from 1953 up until

the 60s some time. It should be out, according to Penguin in early

spring 1997. As far as I know, it is the last major writing left to be

published by Kerouac. It should reveal quite a lot about his thinking

on this subject.

If anyone has more information, especially little known

information that cannot be found in the biographies, please let me know

personally or through these posts.

Christopher R. Smith

University of Maine

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:26:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Toni Rachiele <Toni_Rachiele@PRENHALL.COM>

Subject: J. D. Salinger

Is Salinger ever considered somewhat of a Beat writer? (I am in

publishing, not in the academic world, so I don't know all

there is to know about how writers are classified.) All the

dialogue about Buddhism reminds me of

J.D., though, and *Catcher* is a little bit Beat, at least. I never

thought of him this way until subscribing to this

list. He was certainly influenced by the classic Beat writers, even

if he's not officially one of the group.

What do the experts say?

Toni Rachiele <toni_rachiele@prenhall.com>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:10:00 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:31 EDT

Chris -- applauds on your being so near completion of your MA. I do not

know much of the biography behind Kerouac's indoctrination with Eastern

religions, but I found it surprising that you did not mention gary

Snyder, Phl Whalen, Kenneth Rexroth, et al., in your post. These cats

had _it_ (in the best of west coast fashions) long before the crazed

Canuck made his way out to San Francisco... but his interest, as you

mentioned, was piqued once he hit the coast. His disenchantment with

Cayce may have had something to do with it, but Neal had just gotten out

of prison, and Jack's guilty conscience wouldn't have allowed him much

spirit of attack -- even of religious principle. I've always figured

that it was his exposure to the mystics of Gary, Phil, McGorikle,

Rexroth and the like that started turning his head on.

Cheers,

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:29:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: J. D. Salinger

Toni Rachiele writes:

> Is Salinger ever considered somewhat of a Beat writer? (I am in

> publishing, not in the academic world, so I don't know all

> there is to know about how writers are classified.) All the

> dialogue about Buddhism reminds me of

> J.D., though, and *Catcher* is a little bit Beat, at least. I never

> thought of him this way until subscribing to this

> list. He was certainly influenced by the classic Beat writers, even

> if he's not officially one of the group.

i've recently read a book on Salinger and his works by Warren French (Salinger

Revisited.. i believe is its title) and certainly created the impression that

Salinger hated the Beats and their lifestyle and even cites an example of

Salinger's disgust with Kerouac's DHARMA BUMS. from what i gather, Salinger's

rather clean living, upper middle class New York lifestyle did not make him very

fond of the rather bohemian atmosphere of Kerouac and the gang...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:23:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

e

q

x

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:06:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher R. Smith"

<Christopher_R._Smith@VOYAGER.UMERES.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject: Re: J. D. Salinger

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@MAINE.maine.edu

Toni-

As a response to your questions about Salinger, my marginally academic

opinion would be that he is not at all considered a Beat writer, but I

certainly see what you mean about him having a few Beat-like qualities.

Salinger is considered a one of the major post-war Jewish (I know, it

sounds very un-PC) authors, along with Saul Bellow, Malamud, and

others. (Forgive me if I spelled either of those names wrong). I am a

big fan of Salinger's and have been for a long time. If you havn't

already read Seymour, An Introduction, take a look at the first 5 or 10

pages. In there he makes a pretty biting comment on Beat writers in

general that may begin to answer your question about how he fits with

them. He was very much part, at least in the beginning, of the New

York (New Yorker) establishment, both politically and artistically. He

was not "experimental" in the ways the Beats were. The most

interesting thing about Salinger, aside from the obvious beauty of his

minutely crafted prose, is his undercurrent of Eastern philosophical

ideas throughout his small body of work. This was something he

definitely had in common with the Beats.

Christopher

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:05:43 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Torrey Hillinger <teej@SOVER.NET>

Subject: unsubscribe

Sign off BEAT-L

thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:21:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Is Burroughs a Beat?

I'm just wondering what exactly is the point of asking that question? It

seems like a pointless semantic exercise to me. Burroughs also talks

about Korzybski and General Semantics in _The Job_, and includes a

passage about the power of meaningless words. What happens when you call

someone a fascist? It seems to me that determining whether Burroughs is

a beat or not relies entirely upon your definition of what a beat writer is.

I won't proffer a definition, but I think Burroughs' place in the

literary tradition of the second half of the 20th century was fixed by

Jennie Skerl in _William S. Burroughs_, (G.K. Hall & Company, 1985) as an

avant-garde experimentalist writer who in his time is\was only

appreciated by an intellectual elite.

Art critics spend half their time creating and classifying 'schools';

which is not quite as pervasive and consuming a practice

with literary scholars, but it happens nonetheless. Saying "Burroughs is

a beat writer," or "Burroughs is not a beat writer" seems to me to

amount to pretty much the same thing - nothing. When the goal of enquiry is

immaterial, why ask? If you simply want to discuss the relation

Burroughs has to the other writers and writing that people commonly label

Beat, then that seems like it could be fruitful. To come to the end of

the paper and declare , "Burroughs is a beat writer" would seem rather

spurious. I guess this delves into some basic hermeneutics but hey, why

not? (I'm sure Mr. Hasbrouck with his experience on the Bloom list might

take this one up ;-)

Don't mean to be offensive, and I hope noone takes offence, but is it not

more useful to ask, "How do Bukowski's work and Kerouac's compare as

regards ______?" or "How does Salinger's Eastern leanings contrast with

Snyder's buddhism (or Kerouac or Ginsberg)?" than it is to ask

"Is Dylan\Salinger\Bukowski\Waldman Beat?"

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:24:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Burroughs/Beat

I'd like to respond to Neil Hennessy's recent post. I certainly agree with

you, Neil, that there are many more useful questions to ask about Burroughs

than 'is he a Beat writer?' However, when the vast majority of literature

about the Beat movement includes Burroughs as part of that movement (as if

such an inclusion is completely unproblematic) then I think you have to

admit that the question 'in what sense can Burroughs be considered a Beat

writer or not?" becomes rather more germane. Indeed, I find it ironic that

there is far more discussion amongst 'Beat' writers themselves about what

exactly a 'Beat' writer is than there is on this list. I think it would be

very useful to have a discussion about what exactly characterizes 'Beat'

literature, and whether there is even such a beast. In the case of Burroughs,

my feeling is that his identification as a Beat writer tends to obscure much

of what is most powerful and innovative about his work, and represents another

attempt to 'pigeonhole' Burroughs (a process Burroughs himself has described

in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to what

extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by maintaining

this list.

Let the sparks fly!

David Schmid

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:32:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:33:11 -0400

Stephen Davis <jd4716@NANDO.NET> wrote:

Subject: Re: Buddhism

> For any of you that have not read it, i

>would *STRONGLY* encourage you to read _Desolation Angels_. Its my

>favorite of all of Jack's books and it seems to center around the Beat

>attitudes towards spirituality.

To add to this suggestion, I would encourage everyone to read

Gary Snyder's *Earth House Hold*. The beginning of the book

deals with the summers of '52 and '53, when G.S., J.K., and P.W.

were on firewatch up in the Pacific N.W., as well as various spiritual

shtuff.

"9 August

Sourdough: Jack, do you know if a fly is an electrical conductor? (over)

Desolation: A fly? Are you still trying to electrocute flies? (over)

Sourdough: Yeah I can make em twitch a little. I got five number

six batteries on it (over)

Desolation: I don't know, Schubert, keep trying, Desolation clear."

>From *Earth House Hold* by Gary Snyder (p.7), New Directions Publishing

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:41:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk@KDSI.NET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Beat

In-Reply-To: <01I8IHAFYT228Y0PZK@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, David Schmid wrote:

[snip]

> in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to what

> extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by maintaining

> this list.

Perhaps this reflects the notion that the beats were more a part of a

social movement than a literary movement. Burroughs said something just

like that, I can't place it at the moment, but I think it was in The Job.

I hope I don't step on too many toes, but I think that beat literature is

eclectic and almost transparant: perhaps there is a split of sorts

between the social and literary aspects of the beats, and if so,

perhaps the social hemisphere is dominant.

Burroughs appears to agree with this. But Burroughs is

quite idiosyncratic and confuses the hell out of casual readers, so who's

to say.

:-)

---

Luke Kelly

lpk@kdsi.net

http://www.bigtable.com

http://www.kdsi.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:10:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Neal S> Meritz MD" <Nsmeritzmd@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: unsubscribe

SIGN OFF Beat L

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:41:18 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jens Moellenhoff <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Beat

>I'd like to respond to Neil Hennessy's recent post. I certainly agree

>with

>you, Neil, that there are many more useful questions to ask about

>Burroughs

>than 'is he a Beat writer?' However, when the vast majority of

>literature

>about the Beat movement includes Burroughs as part of that movement (as

>if

>such an inclusion is completely unproblematic) then I think you have to

>admit that the question 'in what sense can Burroughs be considered a

>Beat

>writer or not?" becomes rather more germane. Indeed, I find it ironic

>that

>there is far more discussion amongst 'Beat' writers themselves about

>what

>exactly a 'Beat' writer is than there is on this list. I think it would

>be

>very useful to have a discussion about what exactly characterizes

>'Beat'

>literature, and whether there is even such a beast. In the case of

>Burroughs,

>my feeling is that his identification as a Beat writer tends to obscure

>much

>of what is most powerful and innovative about his work, and represents

>another

>attempt to 'pigeonhole' Burroughs (a process Burroughs himself has

>described

>in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to

>what

>extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by

>maintaining

>this list.

Well spoken. I think that Burroughs left the Beat circle by inventing

his cutup-method and by writing non-fiction like NAKED SCIENTOLOGY and

ELECTRONIC REVOLUTION,that I both want you to read. Junkie & Naked Lunch

are defenitely beat books because they deal with "Beat themes" like

drugs, homosexuality, crime, disgust for the modern us society. And in

my opinion, they are more conventionally written as the cut up novels.

Brion Gysin was the non-Beat influence Burroughs had.

Greetings, Jens

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:48:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Unsubscribe

In-Reply-To: <199606222259.WAA29198@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> from "Joseph

Pizzo" at Jun 22, 96 10:59:33 pm

pleasee un sub scribe me im tired and bloo

woob

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:28:07 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris <UK00028@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: CFP: William Burroughs (9/15; NEMLA) (fwd)

I don't think I've seen this on the list. Apologies if I'm wrong.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:48:28 -0400 (EDT)

From: "Douglas Baldwin (GD 1996)" <douglas.baldwin@yale.edu>

To: cfp@english.upenn.edu

Subject: CFP: William Burroughs (9/15; NEMLA)

Sender: owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu

Precedence: bulk

CALL FOR PAPERS ON WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS:

1997 NORTHEAST MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION

APRIL 4-5 1997 PHILADELPHIA, PA

DEADLINE: Papers must be postmarked by 15 September.

Decisions will be made before 15 October.

Panelists must be members of NEMLA before 1 November.

WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS: CAREER RETROSPECTIVE:

This panel will potentially consider the total opus of

William S. Burroughs, covering the forty-year span from

_Junky_ (1953) to _The Cat Inside_ (1992). The panel will

look at his work in any of the various media of the literary

novel, science fiction, new journalism, letters, diaries,

interviews, films, screenplays, drawing, music, or acting.

The panel hopes to locate Burroughs's work within such

larger theoretical questions as genre, the "Beat Generation"

movement, postmodernism, mixed media, politics, homosexuality,

addiction, technology and society, and cultural iconography.

The panel might also consider Burroughs's roots in early

twentieth-century avant-garde fiction and his profound effect

both specifically on later authors (from canonical

postmodernists to the currently-vogue "transgressive fiction"

of the 1990s) and on contemporary American culture generally.

Douglas G. Baldwin

394 Manor Dr.

Nazareth, PA 18064

(610) 746-3684

dougbald@minerva.cis.yale.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:34:59 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:24:00 -0500 from <SCHMID@UBVMS>

Ah c'mon now! Lost Generation, Beat Generation, Romantic

Movement(English), Generation of 98 -- all of these are just convenient

ways of grouping writers for study and discussion. In the case of the

above examples, the writers happened to be in the same place at the same

time. They knew each other and read each other's work. There were some

similar concerns and some great difference between them. I'm much more

interested in Ginsberg and Kerouac than in Burroughs, although I've read

all of Burroughs' major work and the major biographical and

criticalstudies. My interest in the major writers led me to other

writers in the group whose work I greatly enjoyed including John Clellon

Holmes, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and Diane Di Prima. Studying these

writers in a group shouldn't and doesn't pigeonhole them for the most

part. On the contrary, it just lends an additional, wider context for

study and comparison. Let's not take all of these labels too seriously.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:05:10 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: SCRUZA HRA354 08/23/96 10:04:17 HW1SSW1

From: "HRA354@SCRUZA" <SCRUZA.HRA354@HW1.CAHWNET.GOV>

Subject: Other voices, other rooms

Subject: Other voices, other rooms

Every time I read of the death of another icon, I think of what

is lost. Stories, for one item.

And so I began thinking about a way to gather the stories, not the

few for publication, but the many for posterity. Nerdnosh is such

a way.

A cybercampfire on the wires, Nerdnosh is a friendly site where

we swap tales, tending more towards the anecdotal, the journal,

than the fable or fictional. Since my own coming of age was

during the fifties, that's the era I am most interested in.

Anybody is welcome, but I want to extend a special invitation

to anyone who has a personal interaction with the era or its

artists. This doesn't conflict with the current list; here I

might contribute an appraisal of the many segments of "Visions

of Cody"; on the Nosh I would more likely tell you about the

time Philip Lamantia stopped by an apartment in North Beach where

Ann Murphy lived and Carolyn Cassady lived to speak of poets and

other matters.

The Nerdnosh stories are stockpiled in our Attic:

http://www.netins.net/showcase/nerdnosh

and you can be part of it by sending the command

subscribe nerdnosh

end

to

majordomo@story.nerdnosh.org

I'd love to see you there.

Thank you,

Tim Bowden

mailto:tcbowden@ix.netcom.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 10:45:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

Other voices, more clutter.

Please stay around your campfire and stop nosing around cluttering the

airwaves if you ain't adding to the discourse.

We could all add our own little ads for our own enterprises, but then it

wouldn't be BEAT-L would it? It would be ME-L,or in NERDNOSH's case

TCBOWDEN-L.

Sorry to bitch and moan, but the irrelevant self promotion seems a bit

arrogant.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:52:21 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Jack Kerouac's Road: A Franco-American Odyssey

This will be show on the Canadian cable channel Bravo!

29 Aug 96

08:00PM Jack Kerouac's Road: A Franco-American Odyssey

Duration:01:00

Documentary exploring the father of the beatnik writers, author of the

classic novel, "On The Road".

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:05:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Jack Kerouac's Road: A Franco-American Odyssey

Peter Scott writes:

> This will be show on the Canadian cable channel Bravo!

> 29 Aug 96

> 08:00PM Jack Kerouac's Road: A Franco-American Odyssey

> Duration:01:00

> Documentary exploring the father of the beatnik writers, author of the

> classic novel, "On The Road".

which is then subsequently followed by HEART BEAT - the film adaptation of

Carolyn Cassady's book about life with Neal Cassady and Jack Kerouac - played by

Nick Nolte and John Heard respectively...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 21:24:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Subject: Kerouac

Comments: To: BEAT-L%cunyvm.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

I'm new to this list. Is there any discussion going on right now about

Kerouac?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:25:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

>I'm new to this list. Is there any discussion going on right now about

>Kerouac?

Who? Who's that?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 14:41:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

In-Reply-To: <v01510100ae45195da9e1@[128.125.222.92]>

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> >I'm new to this list. Is there any discussion going on right now about

> >Kerouac?

>

>

> Who? Who's that?

>

it's me. the new guy. can you please answer my question?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:55:48 +1100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Allen Ginsburg..Australia

The ABC has got a show about Allen Ginsburg tonight, it's on at midnight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:08:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re Kerouac

Comments: To: afn49457@afn.org

>>>I'm new to this list. Is there any discussion going on right >>>now about

Kerouac?

>

>> Who? Who's that?

>

>it's me. the new guy. can you please answer my question?

You apparently just missed an interesting exchange about Kerouac and Buddhism

(i.e. what influenced his interest in it?). But stick around - It'll come up

again. As will a wealth of topics Kerouacian and otherwise.

LJ

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 19:39:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re Kerouac

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>>>>I'm new to this list. Is there any discussion going on right >>>now about

>Kerouac?

>>

>>> Who? Who's that?

>>

>>it's me. the new guy. can you please answer my question?

>

There doesn't have to be a specific conversation going on -- you can

initiate whatever you wish regarding Beat topics whenever. There usually are

few good threads going on at once though.

ed

===========================

I do not advocate the initiation of force or

violence to accomplish any political, social, or

economic goal under any circumstance.

_______________________________

Ed Hertzog A= A

exh112@psu.edu

Without Prejudice: UCC 1-207

______________________________

"Let us consider for a moment the statement:

'There is no objective reality.' Now, if we

consider that to be a fact and ponder the

statement it immediately disproves itself.

The statment would have to be false because,

by definition, a fact must be objective; hence...

________________________________

"Does the government fear us? Or do we fear

the government? When the people

fear the government, tyranny has found victory.

The federal government

is our servant, not our master!"

- Thomas Jefferson

_____________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:29:48 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@listserv.gmd.de>

Hi Guys,

i recently read lots of stuff from a late 60s writer called Hunter S.

Thompson, who, i think kinda beat-like, travelled through the states,

took a whole lotta drugs and wrote books, combining fiction with serious

journalism. levi asher mentions him in his ladder-days beat authors on

literary kicks and i wonder what you guys think !

Mit freundlichem Gruss

Moritz Rossbach

eMail moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:42:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Comments: To: BEAT-L%cunyvm.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

To all of you on the beat list, my appologies. Didn't mean to come off so

strong like that. Sorry about that Tim.

To Antoine:

afn is the Alachua Free net- the free internet provider in Alachua County,

Florida.

"I accept lostness forever"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:25:07 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

If Hunter isn't beat, no one is. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is in many

ways an extreme extension of On the Road. Better drugs and less inhibited

times for Hunter and his lawyer. Regards, Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:24:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960826142019.28460B-100000@stud.uni-sb.de>

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Moritz Rossbach wrote:

> Hi Guys,

>

> i recently read lots of stuff from a late 60s writer called Hunter S.

> Thompson, who, i think kinda beat-like, travelled through the states,

> took a whole lotta drugs and wrote books, combining fiction with serious

> journalism. levi asher mentions him in his ladder-days beat authors on

> literary kicks and i wonder what you guys think !

>

>

> Mit freundlichem Gruss

> Moritz Rossbach

>

> eMail moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

>

Moritz: Hunter is from the New Journalism group. When the beats were out, he

was either in high school (maybe) or in the service.

But Hunter is nothing like any of the beat writers.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 17:41:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Whiteley <ai763@FREENET.HAMILTON.ON.CA>

Subject: Re: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960826142019.28460B-100000@stud.uni-sb.de>

lthough Thompson may have come after the Beats, he was heavily

influenced by Jack Kerouac. In Robert Draper's biography of Rolling

Stone Magazine Thompson is quoted that "Kerouac turned me on to the idea

that writing was fun,"..."that you wrote about what you did."

All my best

B.Whiteley

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Moritz Rossbach wrote:

> Hi Guys,

>

> i recently read lots of stuff from a late 60s writer called Hunter S.

> Thompson, who, i think kinda beat-like, travelled through the states,

> took a whole lotta drugs and wrote books, combining fiction with serious

> journalism. levi asher mentions him in his ladder-days beat authors on

> literary kicks and i wonder what you guys think !

>

>

> Mit freundlichem Gruss

> Moritz Rossbach

>

> eMail moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:09:15 PST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: SCRUZA HRA354 08/26/96 15:08:27 HW1SSW1

From: "HRA354@SCRUZA" <SCRUZA.HRA354@HW1.CAHWNET.GOV>

Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

*** Forwarding note from HRA354 --SCRUZA 08/26/96 15:02 ***

*** Reply to note of 08/24/96 07:43

Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

This Reese creep hangs around these lists like something dead,

nursing nothing but old grudges, presenting nothing but a bad

odor. Just a little mess on the carpet you have to step over

from time to time. There should be a periodic disclaimer in

any list afflicted by his pungent lack of class for all the

new users out there.

I'm trying to think of an equivalent in the Beat roster. Bukowski

could be acerbic, but he also had wit. Montgomery was bitter and

grudging and addled, but he had a lilt to his language. Burroughs was

a much better marksman. Nope, there's none like him, thank the gods.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:19:14 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

I think Hunter stands alone from the Beats for some reason. I think he is with

them in spirit but the crowd he moved with and the kind of writing he did makes

me seperate him from the Beats. Though he is a great writer in my opinion, he

has a history of being homophobic and a wife beater. I guess I idealize the

Beat writers but in truth it was not a movement too kind to women and sometimes

homosexuals. Gonzo is next generation. He loved "The Ginger Man" when he was

starting to write.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:16:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: new book Biblio out

In this book collectors guide (BIBLIO July-Aug.) the premiere issue there is

a great article on collecting 'Beat" Poetry books. It list Olson, Levertov,

Duncan, Corso, McLure, Ginsberg and others to collect but it's also a great

read on the beats. If this first issue has an article like this I bet we

will see many good (beat) authors featured in upcoming editions. Keep your

eye out for it I bought mine at Barnes and Nobles in Nashua, N.H. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:37:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Gonzo Journalism still Beat?!

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:29:48 +0200

Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE> wrote:

Subject: GonzoJounalism still Beat ?!

>

>Hi Guys,

>

>i recently read lots of stuff from a late 60s writer called Hunter S.

>Thompson, who, i think kinda beat-like, travelled through the states,

>took a whole lotta drugs and wrote books, combining fiction with serious

>journalism. levi asher mentions him in his ladder-days beat authors on

>literary kicks and i wonder what you guys think !

Hmm, I have a hard time swallowing this one. I think there are some

major differences between "the beats" and Hunter S. I think that the

mention of drugs and travelling are about the only things these have in

common. From "the beats" there stems a sense of romance and intellect,

with Hunter S. it seems that there is a little too much inane drug babble.

IMHO, Hunter S. couldn't touch "the beats" with a ten-foot

j. {8^>

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:53:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: hunter s thompson

isn't neal cassady mentioned in thompson's "hells angels?"

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:52:36 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: hunter s thompson

Joe wrote:

>

> isn't neal cassady mentioned in thompson's "hells angels?"

>

> joe

Yes, but only in passing, as I recall. (Correct me if I'm wrong,

somebody.)

John H.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:48:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: STRice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Subject: hunter and beats

As for the talk on Hunter, he's part of New Journalism and is not a part =

of the beats. Hunter mixes fiction with journalism. The beats =

(especially Kerouac; see Desolation Angels, Visions of Cody) where =

romantics, nostalgic for a lost past, interested in carrying on =

Whitman's vision. Hunter is interested in tracking down the beast in =

America, everything Nixon stood for.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:18:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Whiskey Weird Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: hunter and beats

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <01BB9405.7EB72620@dialup57.afn.org>

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, STRice wrote:

> As for the talk on Hunter, he's part of New Journalism and is not a part

of the beats. Hunter mixes fiction with journalism. The beats

(especially Kerouac; see Desolation Angels, Visions of Cody) where

romantics, nostalgic for a lost past, interested in carrying on

Whitman's vision. Hunter is interested in tracking down the beast in

America, everything Nixon stood for.

>

If the NJ cadre includes Tom Wolfe, forget it. Also, HST does gonzo--gonzo

and nj approaches and visions and methods are not the same. HST

has referred to his debt to Faulkner's statements about truth in/of fiction.

Dr. Thompson is incredibly romantic--and there is an American past and

history and promise and sensibility he yearns for us to return to--and he

screams at the top of his bleeding lungs and he flogs the beast because

it and its minions (i.e. Nixon) have stolen hope and honor and truth and

poisoned our collective soul and loped into the Amerikan night like

diseased bull weasels.

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is very Whitmanesque with a dash of

Genet, a pinch of Howl, and the addled grin of Tom Paine. Romantic as it

gets.

give the Doc money and prizes--don't let anything happen to him.

is he beat? beaten down? beatific? yes and no, i guess. he's just a damn

fine writer--with echoes of Fitzgerald and DeQuincy and sure, Kerouac,

and Burroughs...and there is a huge bloodshot eye staring right out of the

middle of his medulla.

best,

SS

Steve R. Smith

Graduate Teaching Assistant

Department of English

Portland State University

Box 751 Portland, OR 97207

503-725-3556

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:08:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: JK and Marty Glickman

You might be interested to know that Syracuse University Press are

publishing this month "The Fastest Kid On The Block: The Marty Glickman

Story". What has this to do with Jack Kerouac? Maybe we should run a JK

trivia contest, but I suspect everyone has enough E-Mail anyway.

Their opening blurb for the book is a quote from OTR

"Man, have you dug that mad Marty Glickman announcing basketball games -

up-to-midcourt-bounce-fake-set-shot, swish, two points. Absolutely the

greatest announcer I ever heard"

**************************************************************************

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv (http://www.usa4.com/chipub/)

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

***Publishing is 90% inspiration and the other half is just hard work

(with apologies to Yogi Berra)***

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:48:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: re hunter s thompson

>Joe wrote:

>>

>> isn't neal cassady mentioned in thompson's "hells angels?"

>>

>> joe

>Yes, but only in passing, as I recall. (Correct me if I'm wrong,

>somebody.)

that's my recollection also - At the time, the Hell's Angels were taking part

in Kesey's Acid Tests, and there is a description of one of those Acid Tests

in Thompson's book. If Neal Casady is mentioned therein, it's peripheral, as

the behavior of the Angels was Thompson's primary focus. Incidentally, this

book was the earliest of HST's gonzo ouevre (published ca. 1965?), and as

such, is considerably more mainstream in tone than the Fear and Loathing

series.

Luther Jett

John H.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:55:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Zeke <zeke@ZEKE.COM>

Subject: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?]

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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:33:11 -0400

Reply-To: Academic Discussion of Popular Music <ROCKLIST@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>

Sender: Academic Discussion of Popular Music <ROCKLIST@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>

From: Jennifer Senft <jsenft@SPACELAB.NET>

Subject: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?

To: Multiple recipients of list ROCKLIST <ROCKLIST@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU>

I realise that when the debate hits this level, the academic banter tends to

take place between the establishment of this list. And I am new, but I have

something to say...

It is so clear to me that MTV is not only art, but an art form. It is a

genre with its own iconography, its own standards, and its own rules --

extremely quick cuts, moving hand-held camera, zooms, colors, and then --

the wardrobe, make-up, hair-dye, tatoos, etc. This is a style that has

become a cultural phenomenon and ALSO invaded other media forms.

Commercials on regular tv now use "MTV style," it is in commercial films,

and television shows on non-cable television (Party of Five, etc.). It is a

form of art that has taken off with a vengeance and defines a whole

generation. Don't we say, "the MTV generation" much like we used to say,

"the beat generation"? Beat is an art form, yes?

>To clarify: my mind is fairly open on the subject, given that beggars

>can't be choosers. But basically, MTV is a commercial channel which plays

>music videos, the purpose being to make money for MTV, its advertisers,

>the labels who produce the music, and lastly, I suspect, the artists

>themselves.

Sounds like all tv doesn't it? And I guess all art. Funny, the artist's

ultimate goal is to make money doing his art. Yet if too much money is

made, somehow is it then not really art?

I'll shut up now lest I get flamed in some huge way...

Jennifer

*********************************************

Jennifer Senft, M.A.

jsenft@spacelab.net

Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty...

**********************************************

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:41:54 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?]

> I realise that when the debate hits this level, the academic banter tends to

> take place between the establishment of this list. And I am new, but I have

> something to say...

>

> It is so clear to me that MTV is not only art, but an art form. It is a

> genre with its own iconography, its own standards, and its own rules --

> extremely quick cuts, moving hand-held camera, zooms, colors, and then --

> the wardrobe, make-up, hair-dye, tatoos, etc. This is a style that has

> become a cultural phenomenon and ALSO invaded other media forms.

> Commercials on regular tv now use "MTV style," it is in commercial films,

> and television shows on non-cable television (Party of Five, etc.). It is a

> form of art that has taken off with a vengeance and defines a whole

> generation. Don't we say, "the MTV generation" much like we used to say,

> "the beat generation"? Beat is an art form, yes?

>

>

> >To clarify: my mind is fairly open on the subject, given that beggars

> >can't be choosers. But basically, MTV is a commercial channel which plays

> >music videos, the purpose being to make money for MTV, its advertisers,

> >the labels who produce the music, and lastly, I suspect, the artists

> >themselves.

>

> Sounds like all tv doesn't it? And I guess all art. Funny, the artist's

> ultimate goal is to make money doing his art. Yet if too much money is

> made, somehow is it then not really art?

>

> I'll shut up now lest I get flamed in some huge way...

>

> Jennifer

>

> *********************************************

> Jennifer Senft, M.A.

> jsenft@spacelab.net

>

> Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty...

> **********************************************

>

Having read a bit of Douglas Coupland I think that the MTV generation

can also be called the "Generation X".

Oh really ? :-)))

Jens Moellenhoff

jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

jmoellen@sun1.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German)

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space - WSB ***

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:17:19 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Reese like something dead

Hey leave this Reese 'creep' alone, he's a fine guy. You should be

thankful that his buddy Harry the Nose isn't on the list too. Hey Alan,

any chance of getting Harry to join up?

Daniel

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, HRA354@SCRUZA wrote:

> Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

> *** Forwarding note from HRA354 --SCRUZA 08/26/96 15:02 ***

> *** Reply to note of 08/24/96 07:43

> Subject: Re: Other voices, other rooms

> This Reese creep hangs around these lists like something dead,

> nursing nothing but old grudges, presenting nothing but a bad

> odor. Just a little mess on the carpet you have to step over

> from time to time. There should be a periodic disclaimer in

> any list afflicted by his pungent lack of class for all the

> new users out there.

>

> I'm trying to think of an equivalent in the Beat roster. Bukowski

> could be acerbic, but he also had wit. Montgomery was bitter and

> grudging and addled, but he had a lilt to his language. Burroughs was

> a much better marksman. Nope, there's none like him, thank the gods.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:14:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?]

>It is so clear to me that MTV is not only art, but an art form. It is a

>genre with its own iconography, its own standards, and its own rules --

>extremely quick cuts, moving hand-held camera, zooms, colors, and then --

>the wardrobe, make-up, hair-dye, tatoos, etc. This is a style that has

>become a cultural phenomenon and ALSO invaded other media forms.

>Commercials on regular tv now use "MTV style," it is in commercial films,

>and television shows on non-cable television (Party of Five, etc.). It is a

>form of art that has taken off with a vengeance and defines a whole

>generation. Don't we say, "the MTV generation" much like we used to say,

>"the beat generation"? Beat is an art form, yes?

MTV is commerce imitating art. There is nothing new or revolutionary about

the style or techniques of rock video; film and other media were employing

these techniques many decades ago. If you see "quick cuts, moving

hand-held camera, zooms" etc in a video and then see them in film, you

cannot assume that the video came first. Cinema Verite, using hand-held

cameras, predates rock videos. A 1960s television show called "I Spy" was

famous for its zooms. Look at the Beatles films (which were influenced by

earlier films). MTV videos (with a few exceptions) are just cheap

imitations of what came before them.

When I hear "MTV generation," it is usually in a context that denigrates

that generation (unfairly, I think, since I believe "generation" is a false

construct to simplify and commodify targets for ad agencies).

The "Beat Generation" (again, I'm using this term only as a comparison,

since I don't believe in it), was a group of people experimenting, pushing

at boundaries, trying--with various levels of success--to create something

new. Critics may argue whether they were successful in their attempts to

create art (I happen to think they were successful), but their attempts

cannot be denied.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:00:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: NANCY GRACE <NGrace@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU>

Subject: Re Hunter Thompson and NJ

Allen Ginsberg has said that new journalism can be traced back to Kerouac's

fiction/autobiography. NJ actually can be traced back to Hemingway and

Dickens, maybe even further, but I find interesting Ginsberg's connection

of NJ and Kerouac, the way in which both the Beat movement and the NJ

movement (taking place simultaneously in some respects) worked to move

fiction and nonfiction toward the personal and the real. The blurring of

the genre boundaries is a central characteristic of both movements.

Nancy Grace

The College of Wooster

Wooster, Ohio

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:59:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

X-Mozilla-Status: 0001

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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:53:14 -0700

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

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Subject: Who is and who isn't

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I find myself frustrated by this perpetual question of who is and who

isn't "Beat." This list, as I understand it, focuses on Kerouac,

Ginsberg, and Burroughs who are certainly at the center of that cannon.

Like some others I don't have much interest in Burroughs, but am

fascinated by Gins, Jack and the West Coast Beats (Snyder, Welch,

Whalen, etc.).

Terms for literary movements have destinct limitations. Everything

blends together after awhile. There is a trend in anglo-american lit

from the Romantics onward toward interest in the personal and spiritual

experience and as early as Coleridge and DeQuincy that becomes

intertwined with a fascination with drugs. Neither, however, were

"beat."

Influence is another misleading factor. Ginberg was profoundly

influenced by Whitman and WC Williams, to name two writers, but not a

part of the movements we associate with either.

Beat, for me, is composed of a group of writers who were mostly friends,

who came into their own in the fifties. They had a tremendous impact on

the culture that followed them in the sixties--but that was a very

different scene. There are figures that are links--Cassidy most

prominately. But Kesey, who owes much to the beats, had a different

vision. Hunter Thompson ditto. Can you imagine Jack in "Fear in

Loathing"? I don't think so. The hip thing was very different in tone

even though some good old beats-Ginberg and Welch, for example, operated

as authority figures there also. I think of "hip" as "post beat".

Dylan, Kesey, Thompson, Farina, Cohen and others are great figures and I

share more with them in terms of life lived, but they are not "beats"

but their descendents.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:19:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Re Hunter Thompson and NJ

And how bout Orwell, Homage to Catalonia is, among other things, extreme

journalism, and for connection to later Beat writing Down and Out in Paris

and London, regardless of what you may think about the social commentary, is

a sort of desperate precursor to OTR.

John

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:36:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

Isn't one of the problems here that these endless exchanges regarding

who is or isn't beat are never really resolved? Personally I think that if

you have something relevant,and even remotely interesting to say regarding

Hunter Thompson, Salinger, Bob Dylan, or anyone else for that matter, say it

and see if there's any response. The last couple days has seen a discussion

of MTV as a possible art form on this list for Christs sake, so if anyone has

something epiphanic to say about Charles Bukowski, I for one would be glad to

hear it. (By the way durring the whole of the last discussion regarding C.B.

I don't recall anyone mentioning his writing specifically--just whether or

not he ever got drunk with Neil Cassady, which seems to be one of the primary

requirements for being considered Beat--"Hey didn't Thompson mention Cassady

in Hells Angels?"--Yeah he did...so what?)

So anyone know what Kerouac's favorite color was?

Always Merry and Bright,

John

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:46:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Jack's favorite color--

I just checked with my dog (who is VERY beat since she claims she once bit

Lew Welch on the leg--though later apologized) and she tells me she has it

on good authority that Jack's favorite color was blue.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:36:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In a message dated 96-08-28 11:25:31 EDT, Peltier write:

<< MTV is commerce imitating art. There is nothing new or revolutionary

about

the style or techniques of rock video; film and other media were employing

these techniques many decades ago. If you see "quick cuts, moving

hand-held camera, zooms" etc in a video and then see them in film, you

cannot assume that the video came first. Cinema Verite, using hand-held

cameras, predates rock videos. A 1960s television show called "I Spy" was

famous for its zooms. Look at the Beatles films (which were influenced by

earlier films). MTV videos (with a few exceptions) are just cheap

imitations of what came before them.

When I hear "MTV generation," it is usually in a context that denigrates

that generation (unfairly, I think, since I believe "generation" is a false

construct to simplify and commodify targets for ad agencies).

The "Beat Generation" (again, I'm using this term only as a comparison,

since I don't believe in it), was a group of people experimenting, pushing

at boundaries, trying--with various levels of success--to create something

new. Critics may argue whether they were successful in their attempts to

create art (I happen to think they were successful), but their attempts

cannot be denied. >>

HEY HEY HEY

It sounds like a case of competing elitisms here.

Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art? The GREAT lengths to which

AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG

turning it into commerce????

There are some really creative videomakers out there -- the best of them are

using old stuff and making something new out of it. There is NO WAY they

could be making a living by making full length feature films using some of

those looks and techniques throughout. Of course, a lot of what you see on

MTV is junk, but then that is truthfully said of any medium.

All in all, they're very similar on this "ART vs. COMMERCE" bullBULLbull.

They're all just trying to make their videos, poetry, novels, stories, et

cetera (ART) [[[GAH I hate that term!]]] and get someone to buy it

(COMMERCE)

The worst we can do to Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg is some sort of "They

weren't into commerce" crap. That's utterly untrue. Sure they were into

pushing boundaries. But can't you see how pushing boundaries is gimmickry?

Shock sells.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:59:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mick Parsons <mkpars01@MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

In-Reply-To: <32250784.28ED@pacbell.net>

It seems to me that people are expecting too much out of canonical

terminology. Terms like "Victorian", "Romantic", "Modern," and the like

serve to limit the field of study. The term "Beat", while not considered

canonical (unfortunately) is the same way. There are certain ideas that

tie those writers called "Beat writers" together, and those ideas have

indeed been passed on to those of us that came after. But it's important

to remember that the writings are the important thing, not the label.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:28:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

In-Reply-To: <960829093629_396752711@emout16.mail.aol.com>

I'm willing to jump in on any discussion concerning Bukowski's writings,

especially Love is a Dog From Hell, one of my favorite books of poetry.

As far as who is or who isn't beat, I agree, it's irrelevant to some degree.

On the other hand, you're not going to call Truman Capote, Ronald Reagan, or

Lex Luther beat, right? So why call Hunter S. Thompson?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:40:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Jeff Rice <afn49457@AFN.ORG> "Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]"

(Aug 29, 12:28pm)

READ BUKOWSKI'S NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN RECENTLY. HYSTERICAL. LOVED THE

SHORTY ON MEETING COWBOY NEAL AND TAKING A SPIN WITH HIM. THIS IS THE ONLY

READ OF HIS I'VE DONE. ANY SUGGESTIONS? THANKS MUCH.

--

--

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:17:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVID W MYERS <dwm3766@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <9608291240.ZM11777@psl121.fi.gs.com>

I've enjoyed Bukowski's novels WOMEN, POST OFFICE, and HAM ON RYE

immensely. For short stories check out the collection published by City

Li

Ights called THE MOST BEAUTIFUL GIRL IN TOWN. Gritty, mildly pornograhic,

very entertaining stories.

DWM

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Chris Hartley wrote:

> READ BUKOWSKI'S NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN RECENTLY. HYSTERICAL. LOVED THE

> SHORTY ON MEETING COWBOY NEAL AND TAKING A SPIN WITH HIM. THIS IS THE ONLY

> READ OF HIS I'VE DONE. ANY SUGGESTIONS? THANKS MUCH.

>

>

>

> --

> --

> _________________________________________________________________

>

> _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

> _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

> _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

> _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

> _________________________________________________________________

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:13:41 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

DAVID W MYERS writes:

> I've enjoyed Bukowski's novels WOMEN, POST OFFICE, and HAM ON RYE

> immensely. For short stories check out the collection published by City

> Lights called THE MOST BEAUTIFUL GIRL IN TOWN. Gritty, mildly pornograhic,

> very entertaining stories.

another good bit of Bukowski is the film BARFLY to which he wrote the screenplay

for... whenever i watch this film it always makes me think of Kerouac and the

Beats - or maybe the early songs of Tom Waits who was also influenced by

Kerouac....

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:33:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: This silly canonical issue

I, for one, would love to see more mention of Bukowski and lots of

others. What is bugging me is that every month we get some post from

another sophmore who has just discovered someone and wants to know if

they is or if they isn't "beat".

The problem with "beat" as literary term, even more than most such

labels is that it is really a social tag for a group of friends.

Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

admires anybody. Ginsberg and Kerouac seem to me to share some things

in their vision. Some Beats do, some don't.

I'd be much more interested in the influence of Kerouac or Burroughs on

Hunter Thompson (I would see more WB) than in whether of not Hunter is

"beat."

Good writing, thank God, surpasses labels and the dogma of any movement.

I don't think the writers wasted any time wondering whether or not they

were Beat.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:05:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

>In a message dated 96-08-28 11:25:31 EDT, Peltier write:

>

><< MTV is commerce imitating art. There is nothing new or revolutionary

>about

> the style or techniques of rock video; film and other media were employing

> these techniques many decades ago. If you see "quick cuts, moving

> hand-held camera, zooms" etc in a video and then see them in film, you

> cannot assume that the video came first. Cinema Verite, using hand-held

> cameras, predates rock videos. A 1960s television show called "I Spy" was

> famous for its zooms. Look at the Beatles films (which were influenced by

> earlier films). MTV videos (with a few exceptions) are just cheap

> imitations of what came before them.

>

> When I hear "MTV generation," it is usually in a context that denigrates

> that generation (unfairly, I think, since I believe "generation" is a false

> construct to simplify and commodify targets for ad agencies).

>

> The "Beat Generation" (again, I'm using this term only as a comparison,

> since I don't believe in it), was a group of people experimenting, pushing

> at boundaries, trying--with various levels of success--to create something

> new. Critics may argue whether they were successful in their attempts to

> create art (I happen to think they were successful), but their attempts

> cannot be denied. >>

>

>HEY HEY HEY

>

>It sounds like a case of competing elitisms here.

>

>Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art? The GREAT lengths to which

>AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG

>turning it into commerce????

You're trying to make me a straw man here. I never said commerce and art

were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis. If Kerouac had

only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

many years. He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing

called "art")

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:29:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Sean McDonnell <smcdonne@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: commerce

In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]> from "Robert Peltier" at

Aug 29, 96 04:05:53 pm

so what's so wrong about phony structures and commerce-aiding

labeling...it helps provide confusion and grist in the rebel stomach.

s

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:03:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

I saw Barfly shortly after it was released without any knowledge of

Bukowski, having watched it again recently (after reading C.B.'s Pulp), I

recalled a friend having told me that it was largely autobiographical.

Anyone know if there's any truth to that, I'm shamefuly ignorant of his

personal life.

Eternally Lecherous,

John

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:59:12 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Ginsberg records with Paul McCartney

This just in from web-zine Addicted to Noise

Check it out with graphics at:

http://www.addict.com/html/lofi/MNOTW/display-news.cgi?96-08-29

> ----------------------------------------------

>

> Odd Couple: Allen Ginsberg & Paul McCartney?

>

>

> Addicted To Noise staff writer Gil

> Kaufman reports: In the tradition of William

> Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, word came

> yesterday that famed Beat poet Allen Ginsberg

> has teamed up with Paul McCartney, Patti

> Smith guitarist/producer Lenny Kaye and

> minimalist composer Philip Glass to record a

> version of his 1995 protest song/poem,

> "Ballad of the Skeletons," first published in

> The Nation last November. Apparently, Mercury

> Records President Danny Goldberg caught a

> Ginsberg reading recently and fell in love

> with the work, and since Ginsberg has long

> counted McCartney as one of his pals, one

> thing led to another and this odd quartet got

> together and McCartney laid down some drums,

> guitar, Hammond organ and maracas, Kaye added

> some bass and produced the single and Glass

> filled in any gaps on piano. Additionally,

> avant-garde guitarist Marc Ribot is on the

> track. As you might recall, Ginsberg had

> previously recorded with the Clash. One of

> the best known poets from the Beat era,

> Ginsberg's best-known work remains the epic

> "Howl." Not surprisingly, the new single is

> slated for an October 8 release, in time to

> stir up a little presidential election action

> and maybe create the unlikely scenario of

> Ginsberg sitting down to some early-morning

> coffee and chatter with Katie Couric and

> Bryant Gumbel. Yeah, sure.

Regards,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:06:36 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Kerouac's October

Just finished reading Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" last

night. This puts me at the beginning of November 1952 in my

chronological reading of the published Beat canon.

"October" gave me a good feeling Kerouac's maturation as a writer in the

18 months or so since he'd pounded out the first scroll draft of "On the

Road" in April 1951. After retyping and revising (and considerable

obsessing over) OTR, he began to seriously pursue his "sketching"

technique in the fall of that year just before going west to move in

with Neal and Carolyn Cassady in San Francisco. In the Cassady's attic

Jack "rewrote" OTR, eventually renaming that manuscript "Visions of

Cody". VOC was of course a tour de force of experimental acrobatics

which ultimately, I think, exhausted (for the time being) Jack's need to

immortalize Neal. "Mexican Fellaheen" (from "Lonesome Traveler")

documents Jack's experiences during the few days between the time he was

dropped off at the Mexican border by Neal and family, and Jack's arrival

at Burroughs' pad. Neal has no presence in "Mexican Fellaheen".

Staying with Burroughs, Jack smoked "three bombers a day" and wrote "Dr.

Sax" in a month. This book turns even further away from Neal's influence

back to Jack's adolescence in Lowell. I finished it last week and found

its brilliance almost blinding, like driving into the sun. Listening to

the 1960 audio recording of Kerouac reading from DS was tremendously

helpful. The text has a density approaching "Naked Lunch", and Jack's

slow, nostalgic reading brought out condensed, multi-layered meaning in

each phrase.

The Beat correspondence of the summer/fall of 1952 is bizarre.

Especially Kerouac's infamous raging rant at Ginsberg written the first

week of October. (You know which one I'm talking about. Gee, wouldn't

THAT letter be fun to discuss...)

Which brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a

flop house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman

during October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine

had a lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder

if, in the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great

American novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep into his

psyche to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had

simply gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or

anybody that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the

abovementioned 10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at

this point in his career he simply could not NOT write.

Comments?

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:42:56 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Kerouac's October

John W. Hasbrouck writes:

> Which brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a

> flop house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman

> during October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine

> had a lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder

> if, in the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great

> American novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep into his

> psyche to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had

> simply gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or

> anybody that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the

> abovementioned 10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at

> this point in his career he simply could not NOT write.

> Comments?

"October in the Railroad Earth" is one of my favourite pieces of prose by

Kerouac and my first exposure to it was the excerpt he read on the CD Box Set...

powerful stuff! this work seems even more impressive when you hear him read it

and catch all the little nuances and inflections... as MEMORY BABE points out,

it doesn't always seem to make sense on the page, but when you hear him read it

or you read it aloud it becomes more coherent... but i think there are just some

wonderful images in "October" - vintage Kerouac to be sure....

"...and I go to the wailbar of all the wildbars in the world the one and only

Third-and-Howard and there I go and drink with the madmen and if I get drunk I

git."

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:51:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]>

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Robert Peltier wrote:

> >Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art? The GREAT lengths to which

> >AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG

> >turning it into commerce????

>

> You're trying to make me a straw man here. I never said commerce and art

> were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis. If Kerouac had

> only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

> first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

> many years. He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing

> called "art")

An interesting piece on this subject is Burroughs' "Beauty and the

Bestseller" (in _The Adding Machine_) in which he gives advice on how to

write frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You don't sit down and

concoct a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs away with you and

gets out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike

lucky and get a subject the public wants anyway."

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"Human time is measured in terms of human

change. So the most flagrant time-wasting

may minimize change and thus conserve time"

***

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:50:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Railroad Earth

Another vote from a "Railroad Earth" fan--to my mind one of the best

introductions to Kerouac there is and much better if you have heard

Jack's bit from the boxed set.

I live within the sound of that piece of track now, and it's nice to

remember Jack and Neal on that train (there it goes) when the SF

Peninsula was so different--when "3 Com Park" was a stock yard and

before redevelopment got ahold of so much of South of Market. Just

great, relaxed, mature writing. I try to read it every October.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:13:54 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)

ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.

Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a

copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Wild Boys

Hello folks.

I just finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time. Has anyone else

on this list read this novel LATELy?

If you have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.

William

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs admires..........

In a message dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:

<< Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

admires anybody. >>

Well, I can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad. Also

Denton Welch, which is apparent.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In a message dated 96-08-29 16:15:58 EDT, Peltier write:

<< You're trying to make me a straw man here. I never said commerce and art

were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis. If Kerouac had

only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

many years. He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing

called "art")

>>

The Burroughs take from the Adding Machine speaks well.

(Thanks to Jeff Taylor for this): An interesting piece on this subject is

Burroughs' "Beauty and the Bestseller" (in _The Adding Machine_) in which he

gives advice on how to write frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You

don't sit down and concoct a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs

away with you and

gets out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike

lucky and get a subject the public wants anyway."

i HAD the same quote in mind. I think that it addresses this topic.

Kerouac had no guaranteed way to make a best-seller or better-selling novel.

I believe that he was doing his best to best-sell, but it's all just

stabbing in the dark.

The statement "He took chances." (Peltier) is one I disagree with somewhat.

He did and he didn't. Making yourself some sort of celebrity (and playing

celebrity when given the chance) works to insure your success in the vein of

commerce

(rather than making a mark in the canon).

"And, yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from person

to person. Sort of like- there is a thing called truth. I never said that

there was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I

hate the term.

One of the big BEAT GENERATION topics (I would think) would be the successes

of JK, AG, and WSB at MERGING the creative and the commercial (not merely the

marketable but the commercial).

I have heard that writing is the most intimate form of communication between

two men, one sitting at his desk, the other seated in a chair. For these

three men, and others associated with them, it's never been like that.

AG and WSB are both old men now, and have gone far beyond the relationship

between writer and reader, delving into other art forms, commercial

enterprises, et cetera. Kerouac did an immensely personal thing. He

couldn't stop writing about himself, and his life stories have impressed

many. It's not merely an "academic" thing or a "literary" thing. It's a

BEAT thing.

If they're a literary movement, are they not the MOST celebrity/commercial

lit movement? They've been public figures, drawing attention to themselves

in what was a most un-writerly way.

*****I thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,

and their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would be to

their liking. Is it not to our liking? Or would that be saying that it's not

"ART" (gasp!)?

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:51:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

Bob Jordan writes:

> I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a

> world!) ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on

> the same. Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might

> obtain a copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

i believe you're referring to the "Is There A Beat Generation?" track? that was

originally from an essay Kerouac wrote for PLAYBOY magazine entitled, "Beatific:

The Origins of the Beat Generation" (i believe that's the title) but it is

reprinted in THE PORTABLE JACK KEROUAC book that's out in stores... it's

considerably longer than what Jack read on the box set - well worth a looksee...

bfn

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <rpeltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

>

>"And, yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from person

>to person. Sort of like- there is a thing called truth. I never said that

>there was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I

>hate the term.

>*****I thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,

>and their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would be to

>their liking. Is it not to our liking? Or would that be saying that it's not

>"ART" (gasp!)?

>

>William Miller

>

If you're referring to a rather dated and elitist notion of "art" (current

when Kerouac et al were writing) then I would agree with the first paragraph

above.

But my criterion for art is that it must force us to look at the world in

new ways and shake us from our easy, received perceptions. I believe the

beats' work did that.

And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my

introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

aesthetics.

One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their

successors, "running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and became

part of it as a consequence. I'm not quite ready to make that argument yet,

but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.

================================================================

Robert Francis Peltier

Lecturer in the Writing Center

Trinity College

Hartford, Connecticut 06106

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:26:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject: Re: Wild Boys

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:

> I just finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time. Has anyone else

> on this list read this novel LATELy?

>

> If you have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.

I'm not sure if you wanted this posted to the list, but hey, why not? When

asked by people I meet why I like Burroughs or what book by him they should

read to be best introduced to his work, I recommend _The Wild Boys_. The way I

look at his work, it is a transitional piece, somewhere between the cut-up

trilogy and the narrative structure of the Cities trilogy.

There are Wild Boys running through the rest of his oeuvre disrupting American

power structures, cavorting about sticking it to the military and matriarchal

family constructs, and causing a general ruckus throughout history. We also get

to see the first bit of tenderness from Burroughs with the first of the boys

going on gay 'journeys of discovery' that are littered throughout the next ten

years of his writing. (The golf course scenes are the ones I remember most

vividly from The Wild Boys, along with the green boy and the river).

The cut-ups are still present, running through the book, tying it together in

the Penny Arcade Peep Show chapters, so he hasn't abadoned the cut-up method

quite yet.

There are also some of the funniest passages Burroughs has ever written in

_The Wild Boys_. The opening bit with the crazy-eyed flower vendor is great,

and the one about the Mother Superior with a strap-on was hilarious.

One of the other important things to note about The Wild Boys is the cinematic

structure that has creeped into the work. This comes soon after Dutch Schultz,

Burroughs' failed attempt at script-writing. He eventually conceded that it

didn't work as a film script and released it under the suspect title of "The

Last Words of Dutch Schultz: A Fiction in the Form of a Film Script". _The Wild

Boys_ comes much closer to marrying the two forms (fiction\film) by always

giving a camera's eye view, prefacing each scene with camera instructions

like 'zoom in' or 'close up'. To see how this develops read 'Blade Runner: A

Movie'.

You should also read _Port of Saints_ since it was taken from largely the same

material as _The Wild Boys_. PoS contains more actual Wild Boys material than

_The Wild Boys_.

Other than _Dead Roads_, _The Wild Boys_ is the Burroughs book I have re-read

the most. Great stuff, a real tour de force by a brilliant author in flux. It

encompasses the best elements of his earlier experimentation, as well as

portending the power and economy of his future prose works. (Note the a propos

adjectives, har har)

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:37:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@aol.com> wrote:

> In a

message dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:

>

> << Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

> were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

> admires anybody. >>

>

> Well, I can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad. Also

> Denton Welch, which is apparent.

In _My Education_ Burroughs says that Gysin is the only man he ever respected.

Among the artists he admires one has to include Paul Klee, Samuel Beckett (he

has a picture of him hanging in his bedroom), Jean Genet, Ernest Hemingway,

Hieronymous Bosch, Franz Kafka and of course Jack Black.

As for the talk about defining art or establishing its existence, the most

useful and instructive book I have ever seen on the matter is _Feeling and

Form_ by Susanne Langer. If you ever believed that there was something that

unified all the arts, that the aim and processes involved are similar, that

they are all connected by an underlying thread, then Langer takes that a priori

belief and makes it concrete in a powerful and convincing manner. She is a

first rate thinker and gives renewed dignity to the label 'philosopher'.

Stay Warm,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:14:04 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

Robert Peltier wrote, "One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac,

the beats, and their successors...changed the academy and became part of it

as a consequence." I would have to agree, based on the fact that so many

of our colleagues, myself included, now teach beat classes in the academic

setting.

Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:24:36 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Erik Skjeveland <Erik.Skjeveland@LIT.UIB.NO>

Subject: Bukowski Poems on CD called "HOSTAGE"

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@SEARN.SUNET.SE>

In-Reply-To: <00093BA9.fc@ridley.on.ca>

More on Buk's CD "HOSTAGE" which I've been listening to

lately. This is a great reading, his spontainious rejoinders

with the audience being almost better than his poems (ex: ok

you guys, your 6 dollars are shrinking up like a dead dick out

of Norway, under a sheet of snow...these are extras like a

little saliva on the edge of a cunt...).

The selection of poems read is great, and most of them in the

humorous vein. Problem is I can't seem to locate most of them

in Buk's Black Sparrow books. A few are from in "Dangling in

the Tournefortia". But most are as far as I can see from other

sources.

Can any of you help me locate these poems? Buk does mention

that some of them were accepted by the New York Quarterly.

Makes you wonder how many gems are out there still

uncollected. Gives us something to look forward to. Well

here's the list of poems on the CD, as far as I've been able

to trancribe:

- 73 dollar horse

- Jam (indecent exposure on the freeway...)

- What have I seen? (Catullus at the race track...)

- Trouble (photographing a naked mannequin...)

- Competition (farting is a lot like fucking...)

- The secret of my endurance (from Dangling)

- On the hustle (from Dangling)...

- I am a reasonable man (from Dangling)

- Eating the father (planecrash & cannibalism...)

- The 9 horse (beershit and dirty money...)

- I don't need a Cleopatra (in the backyard in his boxer

shorts...)

- Hemingway (photograph of Hemingway fat, drunk, and in

bed...)

- Fan letter

- The drunk with the little legs

- Tour

- The recess bells of school

- A poetry reading (from Dangling)

Can anyone give me some clues on these?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

the longer I live the more I realize

that I knew exactly what I was doing

when I didn't seem to be doing

anything

but watching a wet fly on the

bar

nuzzling a pool of

spilled beer.

-Charles Bukowski: "Betting on the Muse"

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Erik.Skjeveland@lit.uib.no

University of Bergen, Norway

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:24:36 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: [Fwd: Re: Kerouac's October]

X-Mozilla-Status: 0001

Message-ID: <3226BB01.3998@tezcat.com>

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:57:21 +0000

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@tezcat.com>

X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: Ted Harms <tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's October

References: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960830083928.12919A-100000@library.uwaterloo.ca>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ted Harms wrote:

>

> If you got the time, I'd be very interested in seeing your chronological

> list. Or if you've pulled it from some other source (A. Charters?), just

> point me to it.

>

Ted,

The only list I'm using is a chronological chart I devised of published

correspondence between Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs and Cassady (I also

occasionally include relevant letters to or from such people as Kerouac's

family, John Clellon Holmes, Carl Solomon, Malcolm Cowley, etc.) I basically

include anything I want, but since there's so much material to pursue by

these (my favorite) four Beat writers, there's no reason to go to far afield.

Carolyn Cassady's memoir "Off the Road" has been invaluable.

The scheme behind this reading project is that I'm reading the

correspondence, memiors, novels, poems, every bio I can get my hands on, and

essays, all concurrently and choronologically. That is, year by year, month

by month, week by week, day by day, and sometimes hour by hour. Sometimes two

letters are dated the same day, and I have the fun of trying to figure out

which one was written earlier in the day. Example: A while back I came across

two letters written on the same day in 1949 from different coasts by Kerouac

and Cassady respectively. In the Kerouac letter he mentions that he's going

to a party that evening at John Clellon Holmes' pad in New York. In the "The

Beat Vision", (Knight, ed.), there were excerpts from Holmes' journals in

which he describes that party on the morning after. The Cassady letter makes

reference to the time of the letter's composition being late at night. So

there's my chronology.

For the novels which cover real events, I make a decision as to whether I

wish to read them during the time at which they were written, or during the

time which they cover, or both.

> Also, who are you including in your 'canon'? This isn't flame bait but

> I'm wondering how many people you're including - obviously, Kerouac,

> Gins, and Burroughs but are you also including Di Palma, Snyder, Welch,

> Corso, Holmes, et al? (If you are - man, you've done a lot of reading!)

>

I include whatever I want in my Beat Canon. I'm using the word "canon" in the

same way one might use it when refering to, for instance, the "Jimi Hendrix

Canon" (or, for that matter, the "Western Canon"). This means that if someone

wishes to dispute a choice I've made for inclusion, I have to ARGUE for that

inclusion. I've not yet gotten into DiPrima, Snyder or Welch yet, because I'm

only up to November 1952, and none of them are yet on the scene. I may or may

not pursue them extensively when the time comes, depending on whether their

stuff grabs me. By 11/52, Allen and Jack had known Corso for about a year,

but Gregory hadn't published yet, so there's nothing to read.

And yes I try to read a lot. My Beat reading project is only a fraction of

the reading I do.

> Anyways, I know this is probably asking a lot but if you got the time,

> I'd greatly appreciate it. I think other people on the list might find

> it interesting (hopefully it won't bring the 'beat cannon' debate), so if

> you post it on the list, no need to reply directly to me.

Canonicity debates have only limited interest for me.

Thanks for your interest,

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:23:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] Neil on the make

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400 Robert Peltier

<rpeltier@mail.cc.trincoll.edu> wrote:

> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my

> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

> aesthetics.

What, no Burroughs? ;-) And how is comparing aesthetics 'false'? I'd really

like to see that fleshed out. To claim that studying an author's aesthetics is

spurious seems to me to be a grievous error. All the aspects of an artist's

work stem from their reasons and impulse to make art. By examining those

reasons I find I can develop a fuller understanding of the motivating forces

and vital import that drives their work. What about Jean Genet, who will step

outside of the narrative of his work and make bold aesthetic statements? His

aesthetics are naked and work as a powerful force from _within_ his books.

There are some pretty straightforward self-reflexive parts in _A Portrait of

the Artist_ if I remember correctly, what about those passages?

> One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their

> successors, "running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and became

> part of it as a consequence. I'm not quite ready to make that argument yet,

> but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.

In this vein it would be fruitful to read the introduction to Morgan's Literary

Outlaw which talks about Burroughs' induction to The American Academy of Arts

and Letters. Also look at Genet and his pardon. The French are a lot weirder

when it comes to co-opting those that weigh the heaviest criticism against

them. Genet sets himself up as an outsider in his work and the government

pardoned him because he was an artist. Interesting stuff.

Have a fun Labour Day everyone! Going up to the cottage for some reading,

relaxation, and contemplation...

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:18:38 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400 from <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

In a real sense, the Beat movement grew out of Columbia University. I'm not su

re that I'd agree that it was a purpose of the movement to run counter to acade

me. Rather, the Academy at the time rejected, for the most part, the values of

writers like Ginsberg and Kerouac. English departments then were still under

the sway of the New Criticism. They tended to ignore

topics like mysticism and spirituality, something that inter

ested Kerouac and Ginsberg. The question of the Beat role in the canon is an i

nteresting one. When I was writing my master's thesis on Kerouac in 1972, a Co

lumbia professor who was sympathetic to his work said: "Why do you want to tha

t for? Making him part of the canon will be the quickest way to kill him. Nob

ody will read him anymore." Obviously, I disagreed. I think the Beat Movemen

t will have an important place in American literary history and I'm glad that s

o many Beat writers have accepted positions in colleges and universities. They

've even established their own center of learning -- the Naropa Institute.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:33:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........

Add to the list:

John Giorno

Keith Haring

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:24:47 CST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

Thanks, I'll look for it. Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:31:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Greenberg <SGreenb622@AOL.COM>

Subject: Railroad Earth

Is Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome

Traveler piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable

Jack Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in

Lonesome Traveler?

SRG

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:54:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: New Biography

Viking (Penguin) are announcing in their Fall list a bio of JK 'Jack

Keroucac: Angelheaded Hipster" by Steve Turner. Anyone know anything about

this? And do we actually need another biography? What is your favorite bio

anyhow? I rather prefer Jack's Book to the actual biographies...

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:43:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

At 01:31 PM 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Is Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome

>Traveler piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable

>Jack Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in

>Lonesome Traveler?

>

>SRG

Yes. I haven't read the Portable Beat Reader but I would assume it is the

entire piece not just an excerpt, but I couldn't say for sure.

Kerouac's title is October in the Railroad Earth. The railroad earth is the

same thing. Editors like to shorten things I guess.

Lonesome Traveller has the full piece, yes.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:43:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

In-Reply-To: <009A79CB.44238B5F.7@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Bob Jordan wrote:

> I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)

> ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.

> Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a

> copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

>

That piece published in Playboy is available in

_The_Good_Blonde_&_Other_Stories_.

------------------

Alex Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:57:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........

...and cats.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:51:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Railroad Earth

In-Reply-To: <199608301743.KAA10183@hsc.usc.edu>

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> >Jack Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in

> >Lonesome Traveler?

>

> Kerouac's title is October in the Railroad Earth. The railroad earth is the

> same thing. Editors like to shorten things I guess.

>

> Lonesome Traveller has the full piece, yes.

>

The Lonesome Traveller piece is entitled The Railroad Earth. There it

first appeared. The title on the Box Set is October in the Railroad

Earth. Most of the titles on that set are taken from the text rather

than the original pieces.

------------------

Alex Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:20:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Denton Welch

Sorry I missed the apparent admiration of Mr. Welch, Mr. Miller.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:26:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

>

> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my

> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

> aesthetics.

No women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of

aesthetics? If we could all only be so cool.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:12:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: question

I was a member of this group in may-june but went on a summerlong

vacation so did not have access to internet, e-mail, etc. I have two

requests:

1. somebody, toward the end of June when if I can remember that far back

the major issue of discussion was zen and buddhism, mentioned that a

magazine was to have a major article on the Beats, I believe the person

in charge of it mentioned that it was a newyork-based paper - I have

glanced in vain - any body know what mag it was, I believe the issue was

to be August

2. If anything important went on (i.e. events, publications, or even just

interesting disscusions on this list) I would appreciate any update

Thanx

Eric

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:38:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Peltier <robert.peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Boneheads

>>

>> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my

>> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

>> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

>> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

>> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

>> aesthetics.

>

>No women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of

>aesthetics? If we could all only be so cool.

Apparently you missed the "etc." I was making comparisons with the beats

and the old canon. I also include, _among others_, Wharton, Woolfe, Paley,

Head, Baldwin, Flannery O'Connor, Langston Hughes, Mukerjee, and so forth.

But thanks for jumping without thinking, just like a good little fascist.

You've memorized the code words, but I'll bet in your heart of hearts

you're a dittohead.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:42:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Bukowski Honor In Movie Ending (Not Beat related)

Hmm,

Just finished watching the movie "The Crossing Guard" by Sean Penn;

with Jack Nicholson, Angelica Houston and Robbie Robertson

(of The Band). During the closing pan-out there are the words:

"For my friend,

Henry Charles Bukowski, Jr.

I miss you,

S.P."

Just thought it might be of interest to someone.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:39:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a.griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: tecnique & reason

Answer:

1) because it's there.

2) it lights me up and makes me go. self medicating. makes me big and

small at the same time. opens the good 'ol "doors of perception" (at least

one or two anyway). it makes me laugh and laughter is contagious.

3) (I digress) if you took pot away from the people there would probably be

teeming masses of throbbing pissed off drunks looking to kick the world's

collective ass by any means necessary.

4) relieves stress. physical, emotional, spiritual.

6) people's

peaceful

peace pipe of

peace

protruding with

plentiful

pot

6) comic relief.

7) relieves cramps (Lorraine)

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:47:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: tecnique & reason

s.a.griffin wrote:

>

> Answer:

>

> 1) because it's there.

>

> 2) it lights me up and makes me go. self medicating. makes me big and

> small at the same time. opens the good 'ol "doors of perception" (at least

> one or two anyway). it makes me laugh and laughter is contagious.

>

> 3) (I digress) if you took pot away from the people there would probably be

> teeming masses of throbbing pissed off drunks looking to kick the world's

> collective ass by any means necessary.

>

> 4) relieves stress. physical, emotional, spiritual.

>

> 6) people's

> peaceful

> peace pipe of

> peace

> protruding with

> plentiful

> pot

>

> 6) comic relief.

>

> 7) relieves cramps (Lorraine)

>

> xxxooo

> s.a.

the use of two "6's" and the omission of a "5" was a beautiful poetic

touch.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:01:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: neo-beat

In a message dated 97-05-01 00:43:14 EDT, you write:

<< Kathy Acker stomped past me in Lawrence >>

Beat K.A.?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:20:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: tecnique & reason

1 2 3 4 6 6 7 ??? (see below)

says it all

(yeah cheap shot-I make typos all the time--but hard to resist)

>Answer:

>

>1) because it's there.

>

>2) it lights me up and makes me go. self medicating. makes me big and

>small at the same time. opens the good 'ol "doors of perception" (at least

>one or two anyway). it makes me laugh and laughter is contagious.

>

>3) (I digress) if you took pot away from the people there would probably be

>teeming masses of throbbing pissed off drunks looking to kick the world's

>collective ass by any means necessary.

>

>4) relieves stress. physical, emotional, spiritual.

>

>6) people's

> peaceful

> peace pipe of

> peace

> protruding with

> plentiful

> pot

>

>6) comic relief.

>

>7) relieves cramps (Lorraine)

>

>

>xxxooo

>s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:21:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: tecnique & reason

>s.a.griffin wrote:

>>

>> Answer:

>>

>> 1) because it's there.

>>

>> 2) it lights me up and makes me go. self medicating. makes me big and

>> small at the same time. opens the good 'ol "doors of perception" (at least

>> one or two anyway). it makes me laugh and laughter is contagious.

>>

>> 3) (I digress) if you took pot away from the people there would probably be

>> teeming masses of throbbing pissed off drunks looking to kick the world's

>> collective ass by any means necessary.

>>

>> 4) relieves stress. physical, emotional, spiritual.

>>

>> 6) people's

>> peaceful

>> peace pipe of

>> peace

>> protruding with

>> plentiful

>> pot

>>

>> 6) comic relief.

>>

>> 7) relieves cramps (Lorraine)

>>

>> xxxooo

>> s.a.

>

>the use of two "6's" and the omission of a "5" was a beautiful poetic

>touch.

Just like that guy who can take the curves way better after a few brewskis

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:29:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: "s.a.griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: exploding text/allen ginsberg tribute may 10th

O.K. kids, here is something to chew on. . .

All submitted to and approved by Listmaster Gargan.

I am to be a part of a Ginsberg tribute May 10th at Beyond Baroque in

Venice, Ca. Aside from myself, there will be a long list of names

including: John Thomas, Wanda Coleman, Ellyn Maybe, Jerry Rubin, Laurel Ann

Bogen and on. . . it will be quite an evening. In the tradition of those we

talk about, think about and look to here on the list this came to me.

I will alter/add to Ginsberg's piece "On Burroughs Work" then e-mail to

whomever wishes to participate by altering/adding. Then send it back and so

on via backmail to me until it is "finished" or the week is up. It is

imperative that whomever jumps onto this trip works fast. Not much time to

think about it, and in the rules of J.K.'s spontaneous writing, it's what

works best. I will take the completed project with me to the said tribute

and read/perform it for the folks there. I will also print/publish it on

Rose of Sharon Press and give it away to those at Baroque and to those on

the list who participate or wish to have a copy (please s.a.s.e., I ain't

rich). THESE WILL NOT BE SOLD ONLY GIVEN AWAY.

I thought that this was a creative way to approach this in the spirit of

Allen and the beats. Bring it into the present and out of the clambake of

nostalgia by launching him into cyberspace where he will spin far longer

than if he were to be launched into good old outer space.

Backmail was the only way I could see doing this as there would be

absolutely no way to control the beats beast otherwise.

Some of you might think this is juvenile, silly or sophomoric. . . well,

bless you; it will give you something to talk about at the very least. I

wanted you all to come with me on my adventure, The Twisted Caddy is gassed

up and ready to roll down the international superhighway of words kids,

let's go. . .

xxxooo

s.a. griffin

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:33:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a.griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: technique & reason

ditto

timothy,

and I wasn't

even

stoned. . .

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:37:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's Facts and Errors

Dear Attila and Beat-L Family, April 30, 1997

It's late, I came back from Albuquerque only to have to spend a day

running around northern California with a British film crew that is doing a

full-length documentary on Jan Kerouac's life and fight to save her father's

papers, so I can't fully answer all of Attila's questions right now.

But I just have to say, whoa, everyone, please don't take Attila's

"facts" as a starting point because some of them are vastly, 180 degrees WRONG.

Jan Kerouac was not on Medicaid. You have to make less than $600 a

month and she made far too much to get on. She was on a special program at

Lovelace Hospital which was relatively inexpensive for certain aspects of

her care, but she had to pay for the dialysis fluids, medications, bandages,

treatment by specialists, and many other things out of her own

pocket--ambulances for emergency hospitalizations, etc. etc. When she lived

up near me the summer of 1995, when her immune system was failing and she

had a huge blister on her foot that wouldn't heal for six months and caused

her intense pain, I used to drive her to the drugstore almost every day, and

I watched her shell out twenties like we used to spend quarters at our

boyhood candy store. When she died, she actually left something like ten

thousand dollars in unpaid medical bills. Remember, too, that her eyesight

was so bad that she had to take cabs everywhere--esp. down in Albuquerque

where there wasn't much public transportation (and sometimes she was too

sick or in too much pain to ride a bus anyway), and often too sick to cook

her own food and so had to eat out a lot. Her expenses were far more than

what yours or mine would be.

A woman on life support, and all you Sampas fans crying about how

much money she was making--I think you all ought to be ashamed. Nobody's

crying how much money Sampas is making, which has been ten times what Jan

made off her father's work--and Sampas is not on life support (that I know).

And it was money from her own father, for Christ's sake!

You've also got the whole Albuquerque thing about as wrong as you

can. I did not sue John Lash. Jan made me her literary executor in her

will, and the Second Judicial Court in Albuquerque granted me testamentary

letters, which are the official confirmation that I am her literary

executor. John Lash, after making his deal with John Sampas, went to court

in Albuquerque to try to get me thrown out--just so I couldn't carry on

Jan's case against the Sampases. He has not succeeded, and hopefully never

will. At present, I AM Jan Kerouac's literary executor with full authority

over all her literary properties.

OK, I'm hoping you really want the truth. I'll have some more

answers for you, and everyone else, tomorrow.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:08:05 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

It's just always seemed to me that life seems to produce a need for

medication. Pot's one of my favorites. Get's a wonderful internal

dialogue going if you like that sort of thing which seems to attract a

lot of us with literary tendencies. But I also like a glass of wine or

so in the evening also. There are lots of options. Doesn't seem to

work for everyone. Some folks prefer nothing. I've gone through long

periods of my life where I was just tired of smoking dope, after nearly

20 years of pretty much daily getting high. Felt it tended to make me

sort of autistic rather artistic. But I've been taking periodic

refresher courses. Different drugs affect us differently. Different

metabolisms, brain chemistries and belief systems. To each his own.

But I would hate to think of having missed reading something really

good, or really great music or film while nice and loaded. Plus which

the sort of perception that pot is about is pretty central to what

drives Beat Lit.

J Stauffer

s.a.griffin wrote:

>

> Answer:

>

> 1) because it's there.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:00:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: PHIL CHAPUT-REBUTTAL

Thanks for your reply, Phil. And I salute your offer to act as a bridge

between Nicosia and Sampas. I truly hope something positive can come of it.

Respectfully,

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 07:54:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: London bookstores

You're right of course. What I meant to type was that they *sell* new books,

as opposed to the second-hand stalls at Camden Lock. I sold books to them in

the 70's too! But, hey, go easy, turns out we share the same birthday (April

26). And 18 years of Tory misrule of my home country ends TODAY!

>In a message dated 97-04-30 10:18:43 EDT, you write:

>

><< Compendium is a new bookstore,

> but a lot of Beat stuff, including otherwise hard-to-find newsletters and

> even some bootleg cassettes, tho' that was some years back. >>

>

>NEW? Nick. I was there in 68. Sold books to them in 70's. What year is it,

>anyway?

>C. Plymell

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:03:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: neo-beat

I did meet up with her at a conference in Philadelphia ... I guess because

we talked a lot about Grove, who she publishes with, it made me think

'beat'. Anyhow this 300 lb 6'4" cab driver arrives to take her to the

airport, takes one look at the punk apparel and the nose and navel rings and

tries to make a run back to his cab and safety, but Kathy spots him and

hauls him off..

>Kathy Acker stomped past me in Lawrence like I pinched her ass or something.

> She was there to represent the punk contigent, I believe.

>C. Plymell

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:58:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac releases and a question...

In a message dated 97-05-01 02:21:37 EDT, you write:

<< and _selected letters vol.1_

been released but also selections from _wake up_ were published in

"tricycle", and the "nouvelle francais" pieces, as well as the White

letters were pblished as well. on top of this waterrow is issuing a plate

from keruac travel diaries over a sketch he did (is that right jeffrey?) >>

Sorry, Derek - you've got it almost 1/2 right....

The Kerouac "plate" you mention is a print done on a letterpress by a fine

Massachusetts printer. The project was done back in 1991 and is titled

"Visions Of America." The print features a Kerouac drawing and the text

excerpt from a Kerouac travel journal in which Jack writes about his journey

by car with Neal and Carolyn through Arizona on the way to Mexico, 1952. This

was a limited edition project

with only a few hundred copies produced. I still have a copy or two available

for sale at the original publication price - email me for more information if

interested in ordering....

Thanks -

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:19:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: May Day Blues

i've been checking my door, mailbox and e-mail (even my bathroom window)

every ten seconds or so since three this morning hoping to catch a

maybasket.

hope y'all get maybaskets.

this can be an imaginary cyber-basket on May Day. include what ever you

like in yours.

david rhaesa

haven't got the old may Pole out yet. i think it's rusty.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:32:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Dylan-Plymell

Charlie Plymell, I love your reminiscences, and wonder when (or if you have

already) written a book of them. But here's a slight correction. I may be

mistaken, but I could swear Al Aronowitz told me he'd introduced Dylan to

Ginsberg in 1961-1962. (Aronowitz was the guy who did the great 1959 NY

POST series on the Beats, and later was their rock pop columnist in the

Sixties, the guy who introduced Dylan to the Beatles and gave the Beatles

their first hit of marijuana, etc.) We could all find out if somebody

emailed Al, who's considered himself the Blacklisted Journalist for the last

two decades, at blackj@bigmagic.com.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:42:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Guy Norbury <GuyNorbury@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Tom Waits

Yeah. That's Waits all right. He stars in "Down by Law" along side

Roberto Bennini.

-Guy

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

"The piano's been drinking, not me."

-Tom Waits

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:44:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a.griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: may 10th tribute to ginsberg

There will be a tribute to Allen on Saturday, May 10th, 6p.m. at Beyond

Baroque Literary Arts Center, 681 Venice Blvd., Venice, Ca. (310) 822-3006,

fax (310) 827-7432

HOWL TO THE BARD

Hubert Selby, Jr.

Doug Knott

Mark Salerno

Wanda Coleman

Michael C. Ford

John Feines

Rob Cohen

Harry Northup

Philomene Long

Michael Lally

Laurel Ann Bogen

Eve Brandstein

Lewis MaCadams

S.A. Griffin

Michael Silverblatt

Austin Strauss

Quincy Troupe

Michael Simmons

Liz Belile

Aram Saroyan

Ellyn Maybe

John Thomas

Jordan Jones

FranCeye

Jerry Rubin

David Ulin

Exene Cervenkova

Frank T. Rios

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:36:32 -0400

Reply-To: lcrev@law.emory.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: lablugirl <lcrev@LAW.EMORY.EDU>

Subject: Anyone here?

Hi. When I last checked this morning, I was on the list, reading along

contently. Is it just me or am I the only one not getting mail sonce

I've returned from my lunch?

- Lorri

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:39:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac releases and a question...

What I I think I said was:

1.) In regard to the "specific" release of material in LA NOUVELLE REVUE

FRANCAISE, excerpts from those two texts I detailed in my post, the material

released was SO BRIEF, and so minor as to be of little value in terms of our

getting a sense of the whole work. As such, this gesture on the part of the

Estate seemed (in this case) more an act of miserliness, than an act of

generosity. I didn't state, or even imply, that they have been ungenerous

with the bulk of the material they have released since Stella's death, i.e.

all those obvious items you listed.

2.) As for quality, I referred only to the poor quality of newsprint-type

paper used in the first printing of BOOK OF BLUES -- not the quality of any

of the works themselves!

Ya gotta read ALL the words, Derek! CHEERS! Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:36:08 -0500

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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: exploding text/allen ginsberg tribute may 10th

s.a.griffin wrote:

>

> O.K. kids, here is something to chew on. . .

>

> All submitted to and approved by Listmaster Gargan.

>

> I am to be a part of a Ginsberg tribute May 10th at Beyond Baroque in

> Venice, Ca. Aside from myself, there will be a long list of names

> including: John Thomas, Wanda Coleman, Ellyn Maybe, Jerry Rubin, Laurel Ann

> Bogen and on. . . it will be quite an evening. In the tradition of those we

> talk about, think about and look to here on the list this came to me.

>

> I will alter/add to Ginsberg's piece "On Burroughs Work" then e-mail to

> whomever wishes to participate by altering/adding. Then send it back and so

> on via backmail to me until it is "finished" or the week is up. It is

> imperative that whomever jumps onto this trip works fast. Not much time to

> think about it, and in the rules of J.K.'s spontaneous writing, it's what

> works best. I will take the completed project with me to the said tribute

> and read/perform it for the folks there. I will also print/publish it on

> Rose of Sharon Press and give it away to those at Baroque and to those on

> the list who participate or wish to have a copy (please s.a.s.e., I ain't

> rich). THESE WILL NOT BE SOLD ONLY GIVEN AWAY.

>

> I thought that this was a creative way to approach this in the spirit of

> Allen and the beats. Bring it into the present and out of the clambake of

> nostalgia by launching him into cyberspace where he will spin far longer

> than if he were to be launched into good old outer space.

>

> Backmail was the only way I could see doing this as there would be

> absolutely no way to control the beats beast otherwise.

>

> Some of you might think this is juvenile, silly or sophomoric. . . well,

> bless you; it will give you something to talk about at the very least. I

> wanted you all to come with me on my adventure, The Twisted Caddy is gassed

> up and ready to roll down the international superhighway of words kids,

> let's go. . .

>

> xxxooo

> s.a. griffin

This sounds GREAT !!! I don't find it sophomoric. The Ginsberg

Burroughs work connection is a fitting starting given the last phone

calls thread before. A creative connection from the phone call through

that Ginsbergian winding a thread of creative thoughts through the

voices throughout this wiring and back to the finish seems a beautiful

collective tribute.

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:50:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Ginsberg On Bravo at this moment!!!

Shit!! I just turned on Bravo and the Ginsberg

interview is on as I type. Damn!!! Anyone tape

this?

Mike (3:50 pm EST)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:06:18 +0200

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: iiw charm

International Workers of the World

a century of struggle for a better world

credits for Rolling Stone

the charm

the musk doesn't grow

on the rolling stone,

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

we gotta go!

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

a day off work

Hare Rama Hare Rama

the point was,

it was

cool

when

we're kids

Rama Rama Hare Hare

jobs that built a nation

they

believed

they were going for themself

& for

their families.

they're now squatter

from

their jobs,

forced to leave their houses,

left with

broken

lives.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

* Rinaldo *

.......................................................................

this poem

is dedic

to an angel

who lives

in VT, U.S.A.

........................................................---------------

first may, 1997

Labour Day

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:12:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Phil Chaput, Kerouac Estate, & Lowell Archive

In a message dated 97-05-01 03:57:27 EDT, you write:

> I'm a little weary of everybody and his brother throwing questions

>at me, and here's Nicosia, always ready to answer. I have a lot else in my

>life beside Jack Kerouac, despite the lies of John Lash's lawyers and all

>the Sampas supporters, including Rod Anstee.

Gerry, you crack me up. First you invite people to send you questions, then

you're miffed when they actually do. As for "always ready to answer", you

didn't answer my two questions -- about Jan's income, and about Paul Blake

Jr. being a defendent at one point in Jan's lawsuit --, nor acknowledge the

post at all, which I sweated bricks over. And I see I'm now accused of

telling unspecified "lies." Cool! Exactly like Sampas, you insist upon

polarizing the Kerouac scene, into just two camps, US & THEM, even though the

issues and personalities are complex. It's a completely simple-minded way to

view the world, Gerry -- whether it's you, or it's John Sampas doing it. Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:33:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: ginsberg memorials

hey- did someone say long ago that Brooklyn College was going to have a

memorial conference/reading (?) for AG sometime soon? any further

information?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:56:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg On Bravo at this moment!!!

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 1 May 1997 15:50:37 -0400 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Groan! Brave usually repeats everything fifteen times so there may be some hop

e. What are we talking about? "The Life & Times of AG?" I looked through the

movie guide last night and found nothing. If anyone has more info, please p os

t.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:09:28 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: kerouac releases and a question...

In-Reply-To: <970501153910_1155276896@emout08.mail.aol.com>

rod

i did read all the wordds buti was working fro memory & quickly from work.

didnt mean to step on yr toes (or whatever), just trying to understand yr

complaints about nouvelle francaise & book of blues peices (and wouldnt

presentation of book of blues be penguin's decision & not sampas'?)

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:26:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dylan-Plymell

Comments: To: blackj@bigmagic.com

In a message dated 97-05-01 13:12:00 EDT, you write:

<< Charlie Plymell, I love your reminiscences, and wonder when (or if you

have

already) written a book of them. But here's a slight correction. I may be

mistaken, but I could swear Al Aronowitz told me he'd introduced Dylan to

Ginsberg in 1961-1962. (Aronowitz was the guy who did the great 1959 NY

POST series on the Beats, and later was their rock pop columnist in the

Sixties, the guy who introduced Dylan to the Beatles and gave the Beatles

their first hit of marijuana, etc.) We could all find out if somebody

emailed Al, who's considered himself the Blacklisted Journalist for the last

two decades, at blackj@bigmagic.com.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

>>

Gerry: You may be correct. Al (whom I've recently been in touch with...and

fwd'd this post) is credited with having introduced them. That seems early

for my recollection in the Fall of '63 when I played Dylan's "Blowing" for

him. He either said or it was assumed by all present that he hadn't heard it.

It may be that he hadn't heard that album, or it may be he was playing mum,

or hadn't heard him sing? It's an interesting assertion and thanks for

calling my attention to it...makes me wonder? No, I'm not writing any more

memiors, just on the list.

C.Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:49:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg On Bravo at this moment!!!

At 04:56 PM 5/1/97 EDT, Bill Gargan wrote:

>Groan! Brave usually repeats everything fifteen times

>so there may be some hope. What are we talking about?

>"The Life & Times of AG?" I looked through the movie guide

>last night and found nothing. If anyone has more info,

>please post.

Hey Bill,

This looked to be from '95 (at least that's what the

year at the end of the credits said). I believe the

program was "Literari" ( I know the spelling is incorrect,

but the program name had some sort of twist to it) or

something along these lines.

I only caught the last 10 minutes, AG had a bad

case of bronchitis and his voice seemed pretty

shot.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:14:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: For Michael Buchenroth

COWS

Look at cow faces

cattlemen cruising the stockyards

the thing is

cows don't care

cows are queer

I saw a cow on muscle beach

I once found a cow magazine

with a cover of cows black and white

hooked up to iron milkers

Cow poetry in it

If you drink milk before going

to bed you'll wake up with a

bovine faced hangover

Huncke stole a cow

took it to the city

on his back

Charles Plymell:

Michael is building a website for me. Thank you. Nice birthday present.

http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:10:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Anstee vs. Nicosia, Heavyweight Bout

To Followers of the Beat List:

Sunday morning (April 27) Rod Anstee landed a couple of haymakers

(not to mention a few nasty uppercuts) before I even knew we were in the

ring together. OK, fellas, put some gloves on me, I'm ready now. Consider

this Round Two:

Mr. Anstee's rhetoric is nothing but recycled Sampas. I've lost

count of how many Sampas supporters and paid spokesmen have come against

both Jan and me with those same two dog-eared arguments:

1) Jan Kerouac had "enough" money; she had no business trying to get

more by suing the Sampases.

2) Gerald Nicosia supports Jan Kerouac's suit merely because it is a

good career move for Jack Kerouac's biographer.

Someone once explained the guiding principle of Nazi propaganda

genius Josef Goebbels this way: "If you repeat a lie enough times, people

will start to believe it."

Let's look carefully at these 2 claims of Mr. Anstee's (and Mr.

Sampas's):

1) Jan Kerouac insisted again and again, at every public forum and

up until a week before she was hospitalized in the final bout of her illness

(May, 1996), that she did not sue to overthrow her grandmother's apparently

forged will just to make money. In fact, she was deeply offended by the

notion that money was her principal motivation. In her final interview, she

told Diane Jones of Giorgio Moser's Italian film crew: "What I want to do

is, I don't want to just get all the stuff that the Sampases have and keep

it for myself and sell it off like they're doing. What I want to do is put

it in a museum."

Jan often said to me, and others: "If ANYONE discovered that their

grandmother's will was forged, and that they'd been cheated of their

rightful inheritance, wouldn't ANYONE speak out against that, and try to

right the wrong, if it were legally possible?" For Jan, whose life had been

so deeply wounded by the permanent absence of a father, getting back some

part of her family heritage (which had been unfairly withheld from her) had

even more poignance.

To say that Jan Kerouac "mismanaged" her money is a red herring--one

somebody better pour a little Worcestershire sauce on and swallow, before it

smells any worse.

Since when does the way one handles one's money have any connection

to whether or not one deserves to be cheated? Jack Kerouac misspent a lot

of his own money buying drinks for himself and Bowery bums. Does that also

justify HIS being cheated (of his intentions for final placement of his

archive)? At one point, Ann Charters was running around the country waving

Jan Kerouac's income statements in the face of every interviewer she could

find--a patent invasion of privacy, if nothing else. Does anyone ask Ann

Charters how much money she earns, or how she spends her money? Does anyone

ask the Sampases how many trips a year to Greece they take with Jack

Kerouac's money? Or how much money Nick Sampas gambled away in the Poconos?

How dare Mr. Anstee say Jan Kerouac had "far TOO MUCH money"? Does

he know how many extra expenses Jan Kerouac had just because she was on life

support--the fact, for instance, that she needed an aide to help with every

basic household chore the last year and a half of her life? Anstee would be

closer to the mark if he suggested that the Sampas family has "far TOO MUCH

money."

Like a lot of people who've lived all their lives on the edge of

total poverty, Jan Kerouac had no idea how to "handle money." But she had a

huge heart, and when she finally started getting good-sized royalty checks

(after Stella Sampas's lawyers had fought three years to keep her from

getting a penny), Jan ended up giving a lot of that money away to

boyfriends, friends, and relatives, and sending presents all over the

country, sometimes to people she had met only once or twice. It would

perhaps have been more sensible for her to invest in real estate or put that

money into CD's. I suppose Rod Anstee can use that as evidence that Jan

"mishandled" money. I see it as evidence that Jan cared a lot more for

other people than she cared for herself.

She had, in fact, lived so many years WITHOUT NEEDING TO PAY INCOME

TAX that, once she got a decent income, it never dawned on her to start

setting aside money for taxes. She eventually dug herself into a hole of

owing the IRS something like 50 or 60 thousand dollars.

But in the last two years of her life, as John Sampas found legal

loopholes to cut down her income, and as both her legal and medical expenses

skyrocketed, she tried hard to live on a budget and to make the most of what

she had. She hired one of the best financial managers in northern

California to handle her money for her--and he was so touched by this very

special, dying woman that he offered to straighten out her huge fiscal mess

for less money a year than most of us pay to get our tax return prepared.

I don't think Jan would want me to hide this side of her life from

anyone; but I fail to see how it is relevant, at all, to her attempt to

regain the inheritance that she may have been deprived of by deliberate and

illegal design.

Or do you mean to say, Rod, that anyone would be justified in

cheating YOU TOO if we can prove that, at some point in your life, you

wasted some money?

Funny--I've never heard that one used in court to justify a robbery.

"Appeal to emotions" they used to call it in rhetoric class.

Now as for the second, and apparently weightier, accusation--that I

am only serving myself, and that I am the only person who will benefit if I

win Jan's case:

My "real goal," Rod, is to keep my promise to a dead woman: Jan

Kerouac. On several occasions, during the last two years of her life, I

promised Jan that--as God would help me--I would do everything in my power

to carry on her quest, if she died before seeing her lawsuit go to trial.

Maybe promises to the dead are meaningless to you, Mr. Anstee. They aren't

to me, and they weren't to Jack Kerouac, whom you profess to love.

And have you forgotten PAUL BLAKE, JR., dear Rod, whose life and

family would be lifted out of dire poverty if we win in Florida? Not to

mention that, as he has stated, a victory in Florida would make HIM feel as

if he had finally "recaptured" part of his own family heritage. I fight for

him, the living, too.

Beyond that, my "real goal" is also to see Jack Kerouac's archive

preserved for posterity--for the use of generations of scholars, critics,

biographers, historians, translators, and cultural interpreters to come, as

long as the human race manages to endure. It is the future generations,

specifically, who will benefit if I succeed in carrying out Jan Kerouac's

quest--as well as American literature and America's cultural legacy.

I would think Mr. Anstee knows enough about me by now (I stayed at

his house, after all) to realize that self-promotion is hardly the foremost

goal in my life. He might recall, for example, that I care for an

86-year-old mother who has been incapacitated by two strokes, and a

two-year-old daughter adopted from a Chinese orphanage, and that both these

are far higher priorities for me than "running the Kerouac Estate."

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that I have just invented

this goal of helping Jan Kerouac and saving Jack Kerouac's archive--in

order, as he claims, simply to promote my own interests. And let's also

suppose--since he'll have to, for this theory to work--that Jan Kerouac was

such a stupid woman that for three years of calling, writing, and spending

hundreds of hours with me, she hadn't figured this out. If all this is

true, then what, exactly, am I gaining by this legal struggle, that has now

taken almost all my time for the past ten months, emptied my bank account of

$7,000 in executor's expenses that Mr. Lash refuses to pay me, and cost me

another $62,000 in unpaid legal bills?

Let me see--WHAT DO I STAND TO GAIN FROM IT? Wonder of wonders,

let's imagine that Gabrielle's will is declared invalid. The Sampases

retain 1/3 of the Kerouac Estate by virtue of a Florida dower's right, since

Jack was still married to Stella when he died. That dower's right is

incontrovertible--it guarantees the Sampas family millions of dollars over

the next few decades, till all the Kerouac copyrights expire. But now,

after Jan has won, 1/3 of that estate belongs to Jan's 2 heirs, her

exhusband John Lash and her half-brother David Bowers, and a full third

belongs to Paul Blake, Jr., and his family of six, who just lost their home

near Sacramento.

And GERALD NICOSIA, HOW WILL HE BE ENRICHED?

Jan Kerouac put a provision in her will that I should earn a 10%

standard agent's commission for any literary deals I negotiate or help to

consummate. This is money I have to work for. Recent advances on

unpublished Kerouac books have been about $10,000--that means I earn $1,000

if I help put one of these deals together. Five such deals a year, a high

estimate, I think, would add five thousand dollars a year to my income--not

a make-it-or-break-it amount. It would also mean time taken from my

writing, at a point in my literary career when I may soon be able to write

my own ticket. I am nearly finished with a massive 30-year history of

Vietnam veteran healing and readjustment called HOME TO WAR, which my editor

at Henry Holt considers book-prize material. Would I not be better served,

professionally, to finish HOME TO WAR as quickly as possible, and then sign

a contract with Holt for my next book?

Again, I think Mr. Anstee is being disingenuous in pretending that

my goal is to keep writing about Jack Kerouac. He KNOWS better. Aside from

having become the foremost authority (500 interviews in ten years) on the

Vietnam Veterans' Movement, I have spent the past 20 years as an intimate

member of the Bay Area literary community. I just edited a collection of

Bob Kaufman's poems that has been nominated for five literary prizes, and

Eileen Kaufman, Bob's widow, has encouraged me to write a biography of

Kaufman. I have also thought seriously of a biography of Jack Micheline,

another dear, old friend--or a biography of my Chicago hero, Nelson Algren,

or of Jan herself--for which I already have all the material I need, from

years of letters, conversations, taped interviews, etc.

DO I REALLY NEED MORE GLORY AS JACK KEROUAC'S BIOGRAPHER?

I now have two scrapbooks filled with letters from around the world,

praising MEMORY BABE as by far the greatest of the Kerouac biographies. The

letters keep coming, despite the fact that Mr. Sampas (at times in collusion

with Ann Charters) has succeeded in keeping me out of the last two big

public Beat/Kerouac forums. Ann Charters, if there is any doubt about her

role, was an integral part of the 1995 NYU Kerouac Conference, from which

Jan and I were both ejected by police after Jan politely asked for 5 minutes

to speak.

So perhaps if I remain in the saddle as Jan's literary executor, I

can break the blockade and get to speak again at a Kerouac/Beat conference.

There are a lot of people who'd be glad of that besides me. But from a

career standpoint, it's hardly worth sacrificing years of my life in

tortuous legal wrangling just to get to a speaker's platform.

Besides, despite the blockade, I still get invited to speak publicly

even now--as some of you may know who saw me on C-Span a couple of weeks ago.

Well, what about THE BIG ENCHILADA? What if we succeed in selling

the Kerouac archive to Stanford, Berkeley, Texas, or the New York Public

Library for a cool million (the most any of those folks could afford)? The

Albuquerque court would have to approve my 10% commission on an item that

big. Suppose they go ahead and award me 10% of Jan's $333,333 share? Then

I walk away with $33,000--enough to pay half my legal bills for the past ten

months.

Now perhaps Mr. Anstee would care to tell us what HE stands to gain

if pieces of the Kerouac archive are again put up for sale to collectors?

The rest of his charges can be disposed of in a paragraph:

The threat?--it's obvious. John Sampas stopped (or more likely

slowed down) sales of Kerouac material because Jan Kerouac put a spotlight

on him with her lawsuit three years ago. Three years ago, several Sampas

spokesmen, including George Tobia, said Mr. Sampas was about to put all Jack

Kerouac's papers in the New York Public Library. Three years later, that

has not happened. How many sold Kerouac artifacts do you need before you

know what he plans to do once there's no one left in his way? As for Paul

Blake, Jr., he BEGAN (not "ended up") as a defendant through the ineptitude

of Jan's first lawyer, Tom Brill. Brill screwed up so badly the Florida

judge threw him off the case. ASK HIM why he goofed on that--I sure don't

know. In any case, Paul is seeking every possible way now to become a

plaintiff, including joining with me if I am put in charge of Jan Kerouac's

lawsuit by the New Mexico appellate court. There is no problem with

admitting as evidence the crack handwriting analyst's report that Gabe's

signature is an "obvious forgery." "Complete and utter chaos" if I am

allowed to act as Jan Kerouac's literary executor? I hardly think so, Rod.

I won honors as a writer and honors as a college professor and honors as an

editor. I run a tight ship--no need to fear. The funniest thing of all is

Mr. Anstee's fear that as Jan's literary executor I won't hire Ann Charters

to edit Volume 2 of the SELECTED LETTERS. Mr. Anstee complained to me for

years about the sloppiness of Ann Charters' scholarship, and yet it now

appears he'll be heartbroken not to see another volume of Kerouac's work

with her name on it.

Not to worry, Rod. From what I hear, Ms. Charters has already

completed assembling the Second Volume of Kerouac's SELECTED LETTERS, and

it will surely appear long before the legal appeals are over concerning the

Estate of Jan Kerouac.

Thanks to the Beat-L readers for their patience.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:06:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Hey, Anstee, wait for the bell!

Rod, May 1, 1997

I don't know what kind of fight you think this is, but let's at

least play fair, and by the Marquis of Queensbury rules. You send me a huge

long list of challenges at the moment when I'm about to board a plane for

Albuquerque to go fight Sampas's latest legal attack on me, and then

ridicule me to the Beat-List folk because you didn't get an instant reply.

I'll be happy to take you all one-on-one (to change sport metaphors), but I

can't be in more than one place at the same time. Even Michael Jordan can't

do that.

You got your reply today. And there was at least one glaring LIE in

your letter, that I was the only person who was going to benefit by the

winning of Jan's lawsuit. What about Paul Blake, Jr., his five kids, and

wife? Are they all ghosts? At some point, when they have to move their

trailor off their neighbor's land, where are they supposed to live? Does

John Sampas give a damn? Do you give a damn? Or are you just interested in

making me look bad, like so many other people who want to get in Mr. S.'s

good graces?

I don't have the money to hire the staff John Sampas does. I don't

have the resources of Viking Penguin behind me, as he does, or someone like

Ann Charters running interference for me. I AM HERE, and I'm answering

every question at the fastest rate I can, while taking care of my family too

(which to the best of my knowledge John Sampas does not have to do). So

instead of this perpetual ridiculing of Nicosia, how about asking why John

Sampas hasn't yet appeared, either in person or through an officially

delegated representative, to start answering questions the same way?

I'll play in any honest pick-up game you guys want to organize, but

I'm tired of playing where the refs only call "foul" against one side--mine.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:31:58 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: For Charles Plymell

Happy Birthday Charles,

Here's a little "Arcola Hotel" poem I wrote a number of years ago;

I figured you could relate=97I was thinking about all those miles a

guy covers in a life when any bed looks good. I was also thinking

of the miles and hotels in "Last Of The Moccasins."

GRACE NOTES & GATHERINGS

There is little to see

between buildings that lie in rows.

The street surrenders a constant drone

of cars and useless feelings.

Sometimes a gunshot will sever the dark.

Somnambulic faces fall from windows

through siren and confusion.

And in the room across the hall,

a young mother comforts her baby;

giving us another chance.

Richard

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:07:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's facts and questions

Dear Attila, May 1, 1997

I will attempt to answer and/or correct your admirable effort to

create a basic fact sheet on the Kerouac Kontroversy. I follow your

paragraph order:

Jack not only mentioned Jan as his daughter in letters, he told a

variety of people that he knew she was his--including his nephew Paul. Paul

asked, "Why can't I get to know my cousin Jan?" Jack told him, "It's

Memere--she wants it that way."

Gabrielle suffered her stroke in Sept. 1966, two months before Jack

married Stella Sampas. Gabe didn't want to go into a nursing home--probably

the biggest reason Jack married Stella. Also, of course, who was going to

care for Jack, now that Gabe couldn't? Jack died OCTOBER 21, 1969.

There was one previous will of Jack Kerouac's, made out in March,

1962. Jack left everything to his mother, but stated that if she died

before him, his estate should be divided into fourths: 1/4 to his sister and

her heirs; 1/4 to St. Louis de France Parish; 1/4 to St. Joseph's Hospital

(which took care of his family while his mother was giving birth to him

there); and 1/4 to Ste. Jeanne d'Arc Parish, where he had his First Confession.

Jack's association with Little Paul goes back to when he was one

year old, says Jack Kerouac in the letter to Paul Blake, Jr., Oct. 20, 1969,

which John Sampas and his lawyer now acknowledge is a genuine Kerouac letter

(genuine enough for them to want to protect the copyright in it). If you've

read Joan Haverty's selection in WOMEN OF THE BEAT GENERATION, you know that

Jack delighted in taking Little Paul out to the park and playing with him

when he was only 2-3 years old. And they hiked, made poems together, ran

with the dogs, played basketball, etc. throughout the Fifties when Jack and

his mother periodically stayed with the Blakes in Rocky Mount, North

Carolina, and then Orlando, Florida. By the time Jack and Paul were

together again in St. Petersburg in the 60's, they were already good buddies.

Here's the actual legal scoop on the value of Jack's estate as

recorded at his death. His assets (as told to the court by Stella Kerouac)

were one uncashed royalty check for $90.00, and "the value of residuals from

the sale of books and related literary works," which was given as "one

dollar"--for a grand total of $91.00! You may ask, What about the house?

Well, I was inclined to ask the same question, but the obvious answer is

that Jack had most likely already put the house in his mother's name, so it

would not have been part of his estate.

Well, sorry, got to go now. My wife's in bed and my two year old

daughter Wu Ji is wandering the house by herself!

Will answer more points tomorrow.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 00:57:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Conaripub@AOL.COM

Subject: ERRATUM: Helen Adam / Women of the Beat Generation

Comments: To: POETICS@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu, ksp2@acsu.buffalo.edu

Comments: cc: SchaabC@aol.com, Bozokitty2@aol.com

ERRATUM

Due to an unfortunate combination of computer glitches and copy editor

confusion, portions of the biographical sketch of Helen Adam in the Conari

Press title "Women of the Beat Generation," that were drawn from the work of

Kristin Prevallet, appeared without complete attribution. Ms. Prevallet

generously provided us with her excellent research on Helen Adam and we

apologize for any harm that might have occurred. Future printings will

restore the original accurate acknowledgments.

Thank You,

Will Glennon

Publisher, Conari Press

Brenda Knight

Author, "Women of the Beat Generation"

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:13:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Guy Norbury <GuyNorbury@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: May Day Blues

My "friends" and I used a fallen tree in Central Park for our may pole. It

was allot of fun. Blessed be.

-Guy

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

"In jesting guise, but ye are wise, who know what the jest is worth."

-I forget who said it but I read this in Scott Cunningham's biography.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:23:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Tom Waits

Tony,

Here's a snip of some information I posted to the Raindogs Tom Waits

List about Patrick Humphries biography of Waits. If you haven't yet seen it

it's worth tracking down.

The biography is "Small Change: a Life of Tom Waits" by Patrick

Humphries.My copy, which I picked up on a trip to London, UK is put out by

Omnubus Press in 1989 ISBN 0-7119-1741-8. Omnibus has a lot of rock bios out

that I'm not familiar with and rock bios are often pretty insubstantial.

This one, however, is worth getting despite the moans of others on the list.

Biography goes up to 1989 when he was collaborating with Wilson on

"Black Rider" production. Good selection of photos produced on glossy paper

as well as movie shots.

Start and end of book have lists: List of Toms, People tom Waits

would give floor space to, Ten real books Tom Waits would enjoy reading,

(Manhole Covers of Los Angeles), Ten real authors Tom Waits would welcome on

his guest list (Ludwig Von Baldass), Some insults Tom Waits wouls relish

("Well, maybe I could INITIAL it...." Tennessee Williams on being asked to

autograph a drunks penis), and a discography.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:27:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Anstee vs. Nicosia, Heavyweight Bout

Mr. Nicosia--

> Mr. Anstee's rhetoric is nothing but recycled Sampas. I've

>lost

>count of how many Sampas supporters and paid spokesmen have come

>against

>both Jan and me with those same two dog-eared arguments:

First off, I think you proved Mr. Anstee's point by lumping him in a

category with a man he has never even met. (I don't think you have, have

you Rod?)

I really doubt Mr. Anstee is in league with the Stampas camp.

> Someone once explained the guiding principle of Nazi

>propaganda

>genius Josef Goebbels this way: "If you repeat a lie enough times,

>people

>will start to believe it."

You will not win too many "good people points" laying allusions to

Nazism. Although i have never met the man, I really doubt Mr. Anstee is a

Nazi, nor is a follower of their idiotic beliefs.

> My "real goal," Rod, is to keep my promise to a dead woman:

>Jan Kerouac. On several occasions, during the last two years of her

life,

>I promised Jan that--as God would help me--I would do everything in my

>power to carry on her quest, if she died before seeing her lawsuit go to

>trial.

I admire your fulfilling of a promise, I truly do. Whether you are doing

this for personal gain, fulfilling a promise, or are just a great guy...I

don't care. The end result of Jack kerouac's work being on display for

anyone to see is what it is all about. I want that, I think everyone on

this list does.

It kills me to think of Kerouac's work hanging framed on some rich

asshole's living room wall for no one to see but himself. It is great

literary work and should be viewed by all.

I DO think you may be chosing the wrong approach though. You are making

too many enemies too fast. If you want to be perceived as the "good guy",

as I'm sure you do, (who doesn't?) then you would be best off not

mudslinging. This Nicosia vs. Stampas thing has gotten worse than a

Presidential election debate. Let the mudslinging end. The trial will

decide the outcome. If the trial does not end as you would like

it...these things happen. You tried your hardest. Win or lose...wouldn't

you rather be respected for putting up a gentlemanly fight, than be

remembered as just another mudslinger in the great Kerouac debate?

> DO I REALLY NEED MORE GLORY AS JACK KEROUAC'S BIOGRAPHER?

> I now have two scrapbooks filled with letters from around the

>world, praising MEMORY BABE as by far the greatest of the Kerouac

>biographies.

As well you should. It is a great book. I respect your work. I respect

what you are trying to have done with Kerouac's estate. I just don't like

how it is all happening.

Just my 2cents worth....

Dean Palmer--

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 03:10:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cig up your Butt

In a message dated 97-04-30 12:55:25 EDT, you write:

<< Yeah, like why would you bother having a beer unless it

changed something? Come to think of it, why do I drink so

much coffee unless in changes something? Hell, why bother

eating? >>

Hell, the only thing eating seems to change is my waistline. Unfortunately

the rest of my reality stays the same.

Donut Man

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 03:10:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: RE; Phil Chaput Rebuttal

In a message dated 97-04-30 23:08:21 EDT, you write:

<< With a cooler head

today, yours truly - Phil Chaput >>

Phil:

Hopefully the bottom line for everybody is that the Kerouac Archives end up

in a public institution as a collection because it is an incredible first

person account of the history of the beat generation. I know that you have

always been a strong supporter of that happening. Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 03:11:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Why is there no hippie literature

In a message dated 97-04-30 15:20:46 EDT, you write:

<< How about Richard Brautigan? Though I don't like the labels, it seems his

work might fit in to what you call "hippie literature."

>>

Don't you know anything. Brautigan is a Beat! So is Tom Robbins.

Stephen King is not.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:35:41 +0200

Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>

Organization: ORY Jean

Subject: Ginsberg/Hendrix

I would like to know if there is any quote of Allen Ginsberg about Jimi

Hendrix ?

Thank you

Jean Ory

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 01:35:42 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: [Fwd: Catching Up]Warning! Lengthy report of theFilmore party. Of

interest only to beats who consider hippies legitimate

descendants

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------27F35B36BAA

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Since I am goiung to still be too busy for a couple more days, and since

a couple of you asked, here is what I reported to Marie of the prankster

bus trip to rest party. And BTW, Charlie, when Anne Marie checked the

printout of your question whether she remembered that sailor episode,

she shook her head in the negative, but I did notice a kind of smug

smile runing over her face... I do love your reason for memories, and

peace ccame to share all of us.

leon

--------------27F35B36BAA

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Received: from mbay69.cruzio.com by mail.cruzio.com id aa17807;

1 May 97 8:59 PDT

Message-ID: <3368BD13.73F1@cruzio.com>

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 08:56:03 -0700

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: country@sover.net

Subject: Catching Up

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Good morning,

Got back from San Francisco yesterday morning. Checked my mail, started

to answer and got a call from my daughter who just returned from Cabo in

Mexico. The rest of the day went quickly. I lied down to rest for a bit

yesterday early evening and just got up. Now I am caught up on

everything.

Monday in the City started out strange for me. I guess Anne Marie

expected me to call before noon and she left thinking I was not coming!

She does not have an answering machine on her phone, and mine was full

of messages! Then when I got to the Filmore the bus just did not look he

same bus that was "fingerpainted" that Sunday afternoon. It seemed

darker inside and outside some fancy painting was shellacked in some

glossy preservative finish. If you didn't look that close though, the

overall look of the bus pretty much the same from a distance, and even

though standing inside felt almost shabby, not at all like the last time

I was inside of it, it still felt like a magic moment, history was thick

in the air. Kesey was being interviewed by Rubenstein, a somewhat

belittling Chronicle Sports reporter. When I poked my head into the

open door, Kesey was telling him that he thought the Rock and Roll Hall

af Fame was a better place for his bus, because the Smithsonian had a

bunch of dead machines, I thought he said in the basement, but I could

have been wrong. The party was hosted by the Hall of Fame and Kesey told

me that he promised not to try to get anyone in. He did say to come back

by seven forty five, so I went to see my Mission Street friends and

returned by eight. Looked like a Hollywood celebrity crowd was arriving

and checking their names off at the door. It seemed that there was no

way that I would get in, but i decided to wait a bit. That Grateful Dead

phenomenon. "I need a miracle" popped into my head, and lo and behold,

Johnn popped out the door. He recognized me immediately and when I told

him that I couldn't get in, he went back inside and returned with some

big shot lady, and I was in! That itself put an end to the missing

connections all day. It was great to reminisce, to be a part of the

festivities. John and his girlfriend were very nice, it was a pleasure

to visit with them. We took a picture with John's son and Mountain Girl.

She lives now in Oregon "Why in Oregon?, because I have a boyfriend

there". I think it was the huge guy decked out in Prankster regalia that

I saw there later.It was nice to be remembered by all of them, to be

reminded of those times when everythng was unveiling mysteries, but I

never really was a part of the dayglow circus. Not that I didn't love to

see a circus. I was just not running away with it. There was a time when

I provided shelter for the pranksters and their bus at my Barn, but we

had not maintained any contacts since then. Even though they remembered

me, and John was ready to chperon me among all the luminaries, I decided

that I would be more comfortable just mingling in the crowd. And that

was amzing fun. People were high, the music was great, and tha dancing

was spirited. Very much like in the old days, with a happening now feel

as well. It was wonderful. Then I looked to my side and about five feet

from me was this straight looking gentleman, with shortish hair (like

mine) and conventional shirt and jacket. For some reason I visualized

James to be a straight looking person, and his the jacket was dark like

he described, I turned to him "James", "yes", "James Stauffer?" "Leon?"

We both seemed to feel not very surprised, there was a comfortable

friendly feeling. It was really nice to have such good vibes going on.

James was standing in place bobbing his head to the music, somewhat, and

I got drawn in by the enthusiastic dancers more on the move. I have

dance waway with my daughters' friends at raves, but didn't have as much

fun dancing away for a very long time. Strangers were hugging gleefully

, openly without proprietary attachments, it was absolutely wonderful.

The thing was going to end at eleven but went on till after midnight.

James left early, because he had to got to work early the next morning

(did I hear it it right, could it be as a salesman in a clothing store

in a shopping mall?). I hooked up again with John and his entourage,

reminisced some more and if I had to sum up the feeling at the time I

would call it inspired, with tongue hesitating in cheek a bit. The

nicest things were to see a lot of younger people mingling in a visit

with the old timers. There seemed to be a settled down, glad all this is

happening, that we are here, the acid high type feelings connecting

everybody, but in a down to earth kind of way. There was this very

excited, awed exclamation "my god are these cracker jacks?" The young

lady who was shaking some cracker jacks from a box into her friend's

palm, pulled up the box "want some?" Bliss. Absolute surprise and

delight. Went for a walk in the alley and found paradise lit up. Aaah.

Those contagious blisses from long ago.Some of the dancing was angelic.

and I don't know how to describe it. Now that I think about it, I

realize that a lot of people would have ravaged the plentiful and

elegant refreshments placed everywhere, rather than leave so much on the

trays. So I guess the folks were comfortable because only the

comfortable ones were there. When I had the Barn I never turned anyone

away because they didn't have money for a ticket. I had a dozen

flashlights that I would give out to make them do something, help park

cars for half an hour to earn admission.

I wasn't ready for sleep or the long drive home, so I went back to my

Mission friends at the king of all shabiness, the Pratt hotel. As usual

we stayed up all night and I wittnessed again the ins and outs of the

scrounging for pleasures, keeping the sickness at bay, of the addicted.

Life in the now without horizons to beyond the moment. Sheila is locked

up again, for parole violation. Didn't meet her appoinments, maybe found

no other way to get out of the predicament.

In the morning I connected with Anne Marie. Looking more closely I see

signs of strains and stresses. After initial uneasiness about the

misunderstandings of yesterday, whatever they were about I am not that

sure, although I have a feeling that Anne Marie might have also felt

disappointed that she hadn't been invited to the party by Kesey. I

really don't know any of that to be true. Mostly it seems to me that she

needs a more comfortable place to live. Her room is very tiny and the

street outside the window is a hangout for drinking and homeless

people.I do know that we enjoyed visiting for the rest of the day. When

I left she was sleeping peacefully.

This turned out longer than I expected. Off to work now.

Hope you continue to enjoy drawing etc.. Looking forward to hear from

you

Much love

leon

.-

--------------27F35B36BAA--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:50:39 +0900

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject: Refractions (long fiction)

Refractions

Guns slip into holsters of slick leather, like cocks into greased and

nameless arseholes. Butts carved from rich black ebony, inlaid with elegant

cameos of naked boys, crafted from mother-of-pearl. Barrels worn smooth

from use, the bluing worn from sights and muzzles. Holsters, simple flaps

of leather, not the vulgar tie-downs used by those who merely kill. Random

images flash down the corridors of time, lodging at intervals in the brain.

Rolled them up in a sheet of oiled paper, to preserve them against the rust

of time - already a fine patina of corrosion had formed on them. Memories

fade and flicker, dim with age, burn out neuron like neuron, like talent.

Dream shadows, black and white swirls of Freewheelin' Bob's weenie.

Typewriters filled with shredded wheat, coffee beans roasted over a candle,

rivulets of squalid semen flowing down from greedy urchins' mouths - some

old queen's come the last hot food they taste. Open the soap ducts - Dutch

Schulzts's voice calls from the 20's - cries for French Canadian Bean Soup

go unheeded. Dry dust bellows from collapsing lungs, as cows push through

gaps in temporary enclosure - are they too caged? Come dancing, who thinks

of these names? As penance, David had to collect an hundred foreskins,

before he became leader of the Israelites - he brought back two hundred

Philistine prepuces, founding the Hebrew nation on dicks. Probably bit them

off, like the pissy queen the gentiles always portrayed him as. Sling

straps break, a penchant for all things cavalry ends a monarch's reign,

Russia decays in a morass of serfdom. Garland's voice, sweet and sorrowful,

echoes from the stereo - freed from the aged, bloated, drunk and drugged

body that came to house it. Passed the taste for booze and pills on to her

daughter, transferred the allegiance of gays from one generation to the next.

Pain trapped on the sensitised cells of drink affected neurons - surfacing

only when required, just in time to fuck all over again the object of hate,

the object of love. Burning bushes give false advice, call for the

sacrifice of children, ridicule their audience, then extinguish in a puff

of self-satisfied smoke, smell of dead leaves, the whistle of trains.

Distracted by interruptions, disturbed by random visitors who come and go,

clutching carriers of Yiddish loaves, shiny discs and sipping sugared

caffeine. McCarthyism rears its ugly head, and I am entreated to trust in

medications prescribed and proscribed by street medics. Placental blood

stains the sheet of calculations, then they are hurled from a window -

clocks stopping at 8.15, fixed by the rapid division of an atom. Peroxided

hair settles into place, framing the white face, red lips of a long dead

Goddess.

Distant - always distant. Conversations held seemingly by semaphore

signals, stilted and disjointed, halting. Ground zero impact - flesh boils

from the very framework of human bodies, shadows are etched forever on

walls. We have become destroyers of worlds, said Oppenheimer, daddy of the

all encompassing death used twice. They bred - more ugly with each passing

generation, able to fracture the every existence with their intensity....

Faces melting, merging, flowing like warm plasticine, before they are

consumed by the wall of flames. the very air itself burns, pulling the

oxygen from the still breathing lungs. No other species systematically

tries to destroy themselves, nor succeeds like us. An in built genetic flaw

- the altruistic gene seems to have been eliminated from the DNA which

encodes our future. the ultimate soul trap - buildings stand still, but the

occupants vaporized. Neurotoxins, virii, haemotoxic poison cause death by

drowning in your own blood. Germ warfare reared its ugly head during the

plague - wells poisoned by corpses, bodies flung over the ramparts by

catapults, to spread the lice born pestilence. Blankets impregnated with

smallpox distributed to Indian and Aboriginal alike. even the common cold,

and syphilis were used to expunge other races from their own homes. We are

a corrupt and evil species, and we have systematically corrupted, polluted

and destroyed our very living areas - even dumb animals do not shit where

they eat.

Rage - hate - madness, these things fuel writing. No drug can adequately

synthesis these emotions to the point that functional word pictures form,

ready to be transcribed. Each page is a kind of petit mal, jerked into being.

Anal - truly one of the more disturbing words to have entered modern usage.

People forget that there are two separate phases of development - expulsion

and retention. Why not use the terms "oral", "genital" or polymorphous

perverse" as well - or are they not scatological enough? If all things are

reduced to shit, then what is the purpose of living? What does it matter,

what ever you do, you will die, and your body will return to the corruption

of matter from which it sprang. Too late to salve the soul with mystic

unguents, magic crystals, poison it with pills and booze. Corrupt, all is

shit, all shall become shit again. It's the old 3/8 principal - most of the

shit is hidden by a facade of friendship and trust, while an eddy of putrid

excreta circulates beneath the exterior. To read is to seek an

understanding of what is being read. Without understanding, it is

meaningless. Understanding is not analysis - that is the vivisection of

words, the tearing down of an idea into its component molecules, and

rebuilding it in your own image. Doctor Dent's magic cure fixed Uncle Bill

over a decade ago - now it's nothing stronger than tea & vodka. Gone is the

belt gripped between the teeth - gone is the junk drawn up from a blackened

spoon, through the gauze, into the eye-dropper. Replaced instead by

methadone, then apomorphine. Replaced by a triple-bypass, a cracked hip.

New York, Texas, Mexico, Tangiers, Paris, London all replaced by the small

town feel of Lawrence, Kansas. Ian Sommerville replaced Kiki, replaced Joan

- all ultimately replaced by James Grauerholtz. Jack died an alcoholic

recluse, died of liver failure, like Billy Burroughs - Uncle Bill's son.

He wrote, too. "Speed", it was called, seeing as he was addicted to

Benzedrine and booze from birth. Died in a ditch - William didn't go to the

funeral. He had a step daughter, too. Never heard what became of her after

Joan's death. Jack's daughter became a junky whore - her book's in the

library. Keasey was in & out of jails, mental institutions - acid and smack

and the Merry Pranksters with Neal Cassady driving an old school-bus across

the 60's. Cassady died of exposure, counting railway sleepers in the chill

of night. Paul Bowles crouches in Tangiers, no phone, no desire for contact

from the outside world. Sits there with his little pot of majoun (the basis

for Cronenberg's Black Meat), hashish candy made from resin, almonds and

spice. Killed one of his characters with it in "The Sheltering Sky". Jane

Bowles had one stroke after another, aphasia clouded her mind, rumors that

she was poisoned by their Arab housekeeper.

"Heir's pistol kills wife - he denies playing William Tell" - "Evil spirit

shot Joan to be _cause_". No dogs allowed - No dogs are loud - Know dogs

allowed - Know dogs are loud - No dogs aloud - Know dogs aloud. Confessions

of an unredeemed drug addict. Junkie, Junky. The characters spill over to

Queer, a yage quest. Fucking around in a jungle, 1953, looking for a vine

that had the potential to be the ultimate fix. Dragged suitcases of it back

to the States, threatened to cut Peter up with a machete over it. In the

end, it just made them so ill.

Cabra girls, desperate to break free from the convent, talk loudly about

the unsafe sex they have with their shaggy, hairy passing rough. Plastic

bags, hiding cheap vodka, circulate from bag to bag, to be hidden and

consumed in an orgiastic binge of release, culminating in drunken sex.

Cheap makeup and perfume hide unflawed skin of youth, free from the

blemishes of age, applied seemingly at random so as to resemble nothing

more than circus clowns. They talk of going on to better things - it seems

that most burn with the desire to be secretaries in law firms, for some

strange reason. Yet to hear one say that she wishes to go on to Uni... only

on to the Austral on Fridays. Austudy, thrush and grass seem to be de

rigeur to have, though it seems that NSU will do in a pinch. What will

become of these girls? What will they be like in five years time - for five

years is not that great a time period.

But no sex is truly safe - it creates its own little set of problems -

emotionally turbulent, muddying the pools from which we drink. Causing

tensions and frictions. Pervading feelings of worthlessness, episodes of

black depressions, longings for release from a self created prison. Even

auto-eroticism, the simple wank, does not dispel it.

One way street this - no exchange. No trade, no barter. Words never come

free - Ginsberg knew this. There is always a price to be paid - old men

sell their souls for a strap-on, young men just grow old. Pointless,

futile, damaging. It cannot go on like this. Vanished - no contact for

months. The only thoughts seem to be those of return. Someone once wrote

that you can never come home - it is never the same, and people change

whilst the fixtures and fittings do not.

This is enough - as Wyatt Earp allegedly said:

"It all ends here".

rastous@light.iinet.net.au

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 08:18:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject: On The Road - UnCut

Does anyone know if there is a copy, or the original manuscript of On The

Road? The one that Kerouac had to change to get it published?

Thanks

-Bill

[ deadbeat@buffnet.net - http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

"the punishment which the wise suffer who refuse to take part

in the government, is to live under the government of worse men."

-- Plato

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:46:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "JAY S. GERTZ" <JGERTZ@UNCA.EDU>

Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville

Subject: More on dope

For those of you who may think dope and booze are prerequisites for

Beathood, I'm afraid you're missing some points. The open use of those

conscious altering substances was part of the Beat rebellion against the staid

white establishment. (As well as a regular social lubricant.) The same goes for

the more recent Hippy epoch.

Many people are predisposed to addiction, perhaps Jack and Neal were. We all

know that their premature demise was a result of their abuse of alcohol and

drugs. Some might say Burroughs squandered years of literary productivity

while strung out on heroin.

Being Beat, hip, cool, or whatever, is a state of being, not an artificially

induced frame of mind. And I'm not condemning the use of drugs or alcohol,

either. I just know that there are many of use who can no longer indulge (after

years of repeatedly trying unsuccessfully), and others who shouldn't even tempt

themselves by experimenting.

Many of the prior arguments regarding legalizing drugs were flawed in one

regard. Individual freedom is not marked by the absence of constraints. Freedom

comes from the soul, through exercising the heart and mind, and for those that

have attained it, no prison can hold them.

Kleb

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:58:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Guy Norbury <GuyNorbury@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: "HELP ELLEN!" (fwd)

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: misterz@ix.netcom.com (Mark Alan Zilberman)

To: GuyNorbury@aol.com

Date: 97-05-02 01:15:45 EDT

>Return-Path: <timm@aaron.music.qc.edu>

>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:40:23 -0400 (EDT)

>From: Christine Timm <timm@aaron.music.qc.edu>

>X-Sender: timm@aaron

>To: misterz@ix.netcom.com

>Subject: Fwd: "HELP ELLEN!" (fwd)

>

>

>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:38:17 -0400 (EDT)

>From: GuyNorbury@aol.com

>To: timm@aaron.music.qc.edu

>Subject: Fwd: "HELP ELLEN!"

>

>

>---------------------

>Forwarded message:

>Subj: Fwd: "HELP ELLEN!"

>Date: 97-04-30 11:16:17 EDT

>From: OLNYIAMGOD

>To: eli@netusa.net,Magnus831

>To: dannyboy81@earthlink.net,GuyNorbury

>To: s123@idt.net,HiCalConst

>To: trueone@tiac.net

>

>

>---------------------

>Forwarded message:

>From: RACHELK@earth.goddard.edu (Spaceman Spiff)

>To: olnyiamgod@aol.com, arfnarf@aol.com, eac6891@is.nyu.edu,

>jt6859@cnsvax.albany.edu, be82756@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu

>Date: 97-04-29 12:29:06 EDT

>

> This was sent out over our campus e-mail. I think its a pretty

>easy form of activisim that we can all participate in. I did it and

>it only took a minute. I think you should all do it to. Pass the #

>on to people and get them to call. DOWN WITH CORP. AMERICA!!!!!

>love

>rachel

>

>

>

>>Hey there-- I just received this email off the AIDS Ride listserv and

>>it took me 90 seconds to do. It's touch tone voting-- to protest

>>Chrysler's revocation of advertising off the coming out episode of

>>Ellen. You call the 1-800 number, which is the Chrysler customer

>>service center, press 1 for "current media and public relations

>>issues"-- then, press 2 to vote for the Ellen decision, listen to the

>>message and press 1 to agree with their decision to withhold

>>advertising from the episode and press 2 to disagree with it.

>>

>>It's easy--please take a minute out of your day to stand up against

>>this example of corporate cowardice and homophobia.

>

>Sara

>P.S. As you all know those "people" of the right are very powerful, so

>please call and forward this message to all of your friends and encourage

>them to call too. Please don't be silent let Chrysler know that we don't

>all agree with those hurtful conservative, hateful religious right.

>

>

>>*****************************

>>I just got an email from a friend of mine (who obviously doesnt know me

>>that well-- only through a campus religious organization) urging me to

>>call chrysler to show my support for their decison to revoke funding for

>>the show "Ellen" because of the whole 'coming out' episode.

>>

>>It struck me that it would be just as easy to use the number to show my

>>support for "Ellen" (the phone line has been established so that the

>>company can get a feel for what the public opinion is). And then i

>>thought that if i passed this message along to others then they could

>>call as well-- which whould hopefully cancel out some of the phone calls

>>generated by my friend's email.

>>

>>The number is 1(800) 992-1997. its toll free and only takes about two

>>minutes, apparently. please call and pass on this email--this is an

>>opportunity for activism that is going to make a difference-- chrysler

>>is *asking* for us to voice our opinions. lets just make sure that we

>>have the loudest voice.

>>

>

>>

>>my friend closed his email with this biblical quote:

>>

>>Romans 12:9--Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

>>

>>to which i can only say AMEN

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

@@@@@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@

@@@

@@! @@! @@! @@! !@@ @@! @@! @@! @@@ @@!

@@@

@!! !!@ @!@ !!@ !@@!! @!! @!!!:! @!@!!@! @!!

!@!

!!: !!: !!: !:! !!: !!: !!: :!! !!:

: : : ::.: : : : :: ::: : : : :.::.: :

:.:

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:11:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Why is there no hippie literature

In-Reply-To: <970502031057_1521133693@emout07.mail.aol.com>

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> Don't you know anything. Brautigan is a Beat! So is Tom Robbins.

> Stephen King is not.

>

Okay. Okay.

Normally a list lurker, with the exception of the one day I posted a

little wonder about a vending machine experience and a quest for song lyrics.

The very day that the list master reminded us to keep the list beat...

But someone said it...my door has been opened.

Tom Robbins maybe beat, maybe not...my point is...he wrote Jitterbug

Perfume which is a book that definately put the spin in the

rama-lama-ding-dong that is my life!

-Shannon

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:38:31 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Why is there no hippie literature

Shannon L. Stephens wrote:

> But someone said it...my door has been opened.

>

> Tom Robbins maybe beat, maybe not...my point is...he wrote Jitterbug

> Perfume which is a book that definately put the spin in the

> rama-lama-ding-dong that is my life!

>

> -Shannon

Dearest Shannon the Lurker,

sounds like quite a olfactory tornado. when your door was opened i got

a whiff of your spinning ramadan scent all the way over in the Kansas

Vortex and am now looking for a wormhole from your door to mine.

now back to the burroughs smelling thread everyone ...

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:39:23 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: [Fwd: Re: Saw Jack Kerouac at the grocery store]

Received: from challenge.sunflower.com (challenge.sunflower.com [24.124.0.1])

by services.midusa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07076

for <race@midusa.net>; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:35:11 -0500 (CDT)

Received: from p133.sunflower.com by challenge.sunflower.com via SMTP

(950413.SGI.8.6.12/951211.SGI.AUTO)

for <race@midusa.net> id LAA28063; Fri, 2 May 1997 11:39:14 -0500

Message-ID: <336A173B.6C2D@sunflower.com>

Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:32:59 -0500

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: race@midusa.net

Subject: Re: Saw Jack Kerouac at the grocery store

References: <336A1529.3DD8@midusa.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

oh god what a beautiful post? you should list it

p

RACE --- wrote:

>

> as i was pumping five bucks

> into my 1974

> guzzler

> i gazed across the avenue

> to see Jack

> jumping out of the back

> of an ugly green

> pickup truck

> with Vegas plates

> and

> I quickly paid for

> my gasoline

> and

> zoooomed across

> to the grocery market

> i got a glimpse of him

> saw him grabbing

> four cans of spaghetti

> sauce at 99cents

> grabbed four myself.

>

> then in the frozen

> foods he was a

> blur

> i grabbed

> green giant broc & cauli

> green giant corn

> food club california mix

> and some

> azparagus

> for good measure

>

> chased him down

> and he threw

> three huge potatoes at me

> which i caught

> at 2.42 cents a pound

>

> lost him then

> got my lentils and Uncle Ben's

> cause i liked the name

> better than Minute Rice

> two bags of sghatti noods

>

> and other junk

> when i saw him heading

> thru

> the checkout stand

> i checked out

> at $32.15

> almost fainted at the

> bargain

> zooomed off for

> cheap cigarettes

> and caught up with

> him

> at the House of Sight and Sound

> trapped in a CD case

> for $25.00

> but had to pass

> and took

> Mimi and Richard Farina

> for $16.00

> instead.....

>

> hope you're having A Beautiful Day !!!

> things are slowly drying up in

> the puddles here.

>

> david

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:07:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Anstee, Nicosia, & Kerouac Estate Fight

Dear Dean Palmer: May 2, 1997

Thanks for your letter. I have no problem with honest criticism of

myself, which your letter provides. In fact, I welcome such criticism.

I dislike mudslinging as much as you. But the fact is, the other

side (the Sampas side) has been slinging mud at me NONSTOP for the past four

years, even before Jan's lawsuit was filed. In the fall of 1993, when Brad

Parker's little Humanities Corporation invited me to speak in Lowell,

because the official Lowell Kerouac Committee (backed by Sampas) had

consistently ignored me, one of Sampas's buddies, Roger Brunelle, publicly

called me and Brad Parker a "son of a bitch!" What had Brad and I done that

was so awful we merited being called a "son of a bitch" in public? Well, I

had dared to ask my 20-year friend, Michael McClure, to announce that I

would be speaking in Lowell the following night--so that Kerouac fans who

had come to Lowell for Kerouac Week would know that I was in town. The

official Kerouac Committee had done its best to black out our event

completely. After Mike McClure's indiscretion of announcing Nicosia's

upcoming speech, the Kerouac Committee refused to keep paying for his hotel

room at the Lowell Hilton, and he was kicked out, with no place to rest

before returning to California, so he had to come and sleep on Parker's floor.

You may think this story incredible, but Brad Parker of Chelmsford,

Mass, will verify every word of it.

Mr. Brunelle, by the way, has NEVER APOLOGIZED to either me or

Parker for this outrageous verbal assault.

It would take me fifty pages to list each incident of mud slung at

me for the past four years. Let me just take you up to the most recent: my

day in court in Albuquerque, this past Monday.

Mr. Rod Schlagel, John Lash's lawyer, stands up before the judge and

tells him: "Mr. Nicosia is not concerned about Jan Kerouac's Estate ... he

is only concerned to gain prominence in the literary world"--and goes on and

on that my sole motivation in all this is to attain glory for myself. He

never mentions that I stood beside Jan again and again during the five years

when she was critically ill, while Mr. Lash, her exhusband, never visited

her once during this period.

Okay, you say, but Sampas is not involved in Lash's legal action

against me (or so says Sampas's lawyer, George Tobia).

The truth is, SAMPAS IS INTIMATELY INVOLVED IN LASH'S ATTEMPT TO GET

ME THROWN OUT AS JAN'S LITERARY EXECUTOR. Can I prove this? Yes,

absolutely.

At one point, in the Albuquerque action, Tom Staley, Director of the

Humanities Research Center at University of Texas, Austin, sent an affidavit

to the probate court. His affidavit stated that it would be best for the

literary community if Kerouac's papers were kept in one place. A short time

later, one of Staley's superiors at the University of Texas got a call from

NONE OTHER THAN JOHN SAMPAS! Sampas told the other University of Texas

official that he objected to Staley getting involved in the legal fight

between Lash and Nicosia in Albuquerque. In fact, Sampas may have violated

the law by attempting to interfere in an ongoing legal action--an action he

is not legally supposed to be a part of. We are looking into that right now.

So okay, back to the mudslinging issue. A couple of years ago, I

heard Ken Kesey read a wonderful passage from, I think, SAILOR SONG. He

read a story about this group of Underdogs, who were tired of all the

bullshit that was being flung at them. So they create the BAKATCHA!

movement; they hire a plane, fill it with bullshit, and drop it in the faces

of those who won't quit harassing them. After the reading, Kesey said he

had come to adopt the BAKATCHA! policy himself. If you can't get people to

play nice, you have to start flinging their bullshit right back at them.

So maybe Kesey's right, and maybe it's time for all these folks who

keep saying Nicosia is a "son of a bitch" and he's only in this to make

money, to know that for every gob of mud they sling, a couple more are

coming back at them.

By the way, I didn't call Anstee a Nazi, and I don't think he is. I

referred to the pernicious principle that the Nazis developed (or at least

refined) of repeating lies until they're so common no one questions them.

And Rod certainly knew he was lying when he said no one was going to

benefit from me winning Jan's suit in Florida except myself. He knows quite

well that Paul Blake's family will benefit substantially (as, in fact, Jack

Kerouac himself wanted) and he knows quite well that thousands of scholars

will benefit too.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Anstee and I had what I thought was a

friendship for over ten years, during which period--since he is a collector

and archivist--I provided him with copies of all my documents pertaining to

Kerouac affairs, and especially those that concerned Jan's lawsuit.

Moreover, Mr. Anstee knows Mr. Sampas quite well, even if they have never

met in person (which I believe they have).

To begin with, Mr. Anstee purchased several items of Jack Kerouac's

from John Sampas for his (Anstee's) personal collection. Furthermore,

Anstee is best friends with Jeffrey Weinberg, Sampas's former dealer. On

top of that, Anstee was part of the 1994 NYU Beat conference, at which

Sampas spoke and attacked me in front of hundreds of people. He knows Mr.

Sampas's arguments inside and out, maybe better than I do.

Please remember, that almost the same bullshit was slung at Jan

Kerouac too, as soon as she filed her lawsuit. Although she was dying of

kidney failure, they kept saying she was doing all this just for the money

(and Mr. Anstee basically reiterates the same claim in suggesting she had

"far TOO MUCH money"). When she died, I had people calling me from the East

Coast, asking, "How could she have died at 44? We heard she was just FAKING

about the kidney failure." You want to take a guess where those rumors

originated?

I never heard Mr. Anstee raise his voice once about the mud that was

slung at either me or Jan, all those years.

You say "Let the mudslinging end." Amen. But it's going to have to

end with those that began it, and are still doing it. Otherwise I'm taking

Kesey's advice: every last drop of the smelly stuff is going BAKATCHA!

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:09:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: On The Road - UnCut

Yes, Bill, and from what I hear there may even be more than one as Jack had

to re-write and re-write (contrary to myth) in order to get OTR published.

I saw one of the scrolls at the Traveling Whitney exhibit when it passed thru

San Francisco. It was very old and brittle, very brown with little pieces

cracked off. I read what was exposed, probably about the first page worth.

Jack used real first names such as Neal etc. I was laughing because he

describes how Neal came to the door "naked having just finished fucking his

wife" or something, but the word "fuck" was definately written on the page.

No wonder the publishers in the early '50's wouldn't publish it as is!

At the time I was very glad the people in charge of Kerouac's estate had

cooperated in the exhibition, but looking back on it now in light of "The

Controversy", I wonder if Jan Kerouac and Gerry Nicosia hadn't been making

such a stink all these years I would have ever gotten to see it at all, or if

in the words of someone else, it might be today hanging on some rich guy's

wall...

Hey, Jeffrey, can you tell us if the original scroll was one of the items

that John Sampas put up for sale?

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:24:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: On The Road - UnCut

Comments: To: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To: <970502130928_1987595854@emout15.mail.aol.com>

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:

> I saw one of the scrolls at the Traveling Whitney exhibit when it passed thru

> San Francisco. It was very old and brittle, very brown with little pieces

> cracked off. I read what was exposed, probably about the first page worth.

The original quesiton about OTR being available is something I've been

wanting to know, too. There really ought to be a movement to preserve these

texts digitally -- I mean, little pieces cracking off? Is anyone doing

_anything_ to preserve it? And putting it in a public insitition or museum

isn't good enough, sorry. It's the 90s -- all these texts should be part of

Project Gutenberg (http://www.promo.net/pg/), typed up in plain vanilla

ASCII and uploaded to the Net, to propagate on Unix servers forever.

I heard there was absolutely no punctuation in the original OTR. I want to

use the Cornix web applet (http://www.halcyon.com/chigh/corndemo.html) on

said ASCII file of OTR to view it word-at-a-time on giant screens. When

people talk about the Kerouac controversy and letting the works be together

in one place--in the community of scholars etc.--_this_ is what I think of,

not a university library somewhere (though of course, all the physical

artifacts will and should be together somewhere--it's just that for me, the

data itself will be much more useful).

> Jack used real first names such as Neal etc. I was laughing because he

> describes how Neal came to the door "naked having just finished fucking his

> wife" or something, but the word "fuck" was definately written on the page.

> No wonder the publishers in the early '50's wouldn't publish it as is!

Wow. All I can say is wow. I want to read this!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:00:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: On the Road - UnCut

Dear Jerry Cimino & Michael Stutz:

Regarding the argument that the ON THE ROAD scroll should not only

be preserved but also digitalized, Jan and I were saying that for years!

The problem: Sampas still owns it.

And yes, Jerry, he did have it up for sale. I don't know if Jeffrey

Weinberg was involved in the following offer.

But at one point, Tommy Goldwasser, a real high-end San Francisco

literary dealer, told printer and Kerouac collector Norm Davis: "I can get

you the ON THE ROAD scroll for a million dollars."

Davis laughed: "Are you kidding?"

Goldwasser said: "No."

Davis said, "Well, Tommy, I don't have a million bucks." End of

conversation.

Sampas never sold it to either the New York Public Library or the

Whitney, though he allowed both of them to exhibit it for a few months in a

glass case--which was good PR for Sampas, and suggested that he really was

going to place it permanently in some library.

Only he hasn't. As a matter of fact, Jan and I asked New York

Public librarian Rodney Phillips why he didn't try to digitalize it, or

otherwise preserve the crumbling scroll, while he had temporary possession

of it.

Phillips answered that, one, it would cost a lot of money to do

this, and the NYPL wasn't going to spend a lot of money on something they

didn't own. Number two, the thing is so fragile that if the NYPL guys had

tried to unroll it or whatever, it might well have fallen apart, and they

would have had a lawsuit from Sampas for injuring his property. I.e., the

liability to the library was too great to do anything with it if they didn't

actually own it.

Phillips did say that if the library had actual ownership, they

would undertake to preserve it right away.

We asked Phillips why he didn't just buy it from Sampas. Phillips

said Sampas had asked him to pay $400,000 for it, and the NYPL couldn't

afford that kind of price for a single item.

If I've got any of this wrong, I invite John Sampas or anyone else

to provide corrections. This is all true, to the best of my knowledge and

memory (which I do not pretend are infallible).

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:09:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's questions con'd -- Kerouac Estate Fight

OK, Attila, I'm back, and want to help further your effort to put

together a long fact sheet on the whole Kerouac Estate Fight.

(And by the way, since I get accused of mudslinging and hating

everyone, let me say that your "Kerouac Kontroversy" looked to me like an

honest attempt to put down what you know. I'm attempting to flesh out your

points and in some cases correct them. I don't pose as infallible--I'm not

the Pope--and I welcome people correcting me too.)

Again, I'm moving down your list, paragraph by paragraph (now on

page 2):

RE: Jan's lawsuit. No, there is no implication that Gabrielle's

will was forged by Stella. At least I never said this. This will take

extensive analysis of various people's handwritings, and the forger, if

there is one, may never be known.

You're right: Jan stood to gain at most 1/3 of Jack Kerouac's

estate. Paul Blake, Jr., stands to get one third also. The reason is that

1/3 goes to the Sampas family forever, incontrovertibly, because of a

Florida dower's right that gives the widow 1/3 even if she is disinherited,

as Stella was.

John Sampas cannot claim to be literary executor for Jack Kerouac.

Jack Kerouac's executor (or personal representative) was, by his own wishes,

Citizens National Bank of St. Petersburg. John has been made literary

executor for the Estate of Stella Sampas Kerouac. If he claims otherwise,

I'd like to know what legal papers certify his claim.

Next: John Lash's fight with me--which I explained somewhat in last

night's post:

Jan Kerouac's exhusband, John Lash, claims his sister Debra (not he)

heard Jan's deathbed statement to the effect of: "Please dismiss the

lawsuit--let the Sampases have everything." This claim has been

contradicted by every single medical person who attended her at Lovelace

Hospital just before her death. All of them say that Jan elected to have a

very risky surgery (risky because of her bloodclotting problems, inherited

from Jack) because it was the only way she could get strong enough again to

keep fighting the Sampases, to keep fighting for Jack's papers. She said

this up to the point of going under anesthesia, and she was never coherent

again after surgery. She lived after surgery for less than 24 hours,

bleeding profusely, heavily sedated with morphine. There are sworn

affidavits to this effect.

As I said last nite, it is Lash who has motioned the court for the

right to get rid of me as Jan's literary executor, not me who has "sued"

him. His principal beef with me is that I want to continue Jan's lawsuit,

as she asked me to, and he wants to dismiss it, as part of a deal he made

with John Sampas last summer.

As for Sampas selling off part of JK's archives, it is beyond

"alleging." I have in my possession one of the sales catalogues, offering

to sell pieces of the archive by VIsa or Mastercard. Jeffrey Weinberg, his

former dealer, admits to having sold hundreds of items. All sorts of people

(dealers and collectors) around the country have testified to having bought

and/or having been offered significant items from the archive--including

manuscripts. Many of these people have showed me the items they bought.

Johnny Depp's brother Dan Depp (who runs a bookstore in Santa Cruz)

described JD's visit with Sampas and the items he bought--more than just the

raincoat, by the way. I believe Weinberg has photos of Sampas and Depp

together.

As for Jack's desires, he showed all his close friends--such as

Stanley Twardowicz, for example--the careful files he had kept of all his

writings, correspondence, etc., and talked of his desire to have it all

preserved. Stanley even told Jack, "Why don't you put some of it in the

Northport Public Library?" so Kerouac actually DONATED THE COMPLETE

MANUSCRIPT OF THE TOWN AND THE CITY TO THE NORTHPORT PUBLIC LIBRARY, where

it is today.

Kerouac wrote John Clellon Holmes in June, 1962, in a letter I have

in my possession, that he wanted his files preserved as "a goldmine of

information for scholars." Earlier, he had told journalist and friend Al

Aronowitz that "someday they're going to write biographies about me, just

like Hemingway," and he showed Al his files, saying the biographers would

need to use those to fully understand him.

At the very end of his life, Jack Kerouac needed money desperately,

but he refused a big deal from Gotham Book Mart for all his papers. (Gotham

deals primarily with collectors.) Instead, he sold his letters from Allen

Ginsberg to the University of Texas, and his letters from Ginsberg to

Columbia University. JK never sold any part of his archive to private

collectors--though some of it was stolen from his bedroom and did get on the

collectors' market.

Again, if Mr. Sampas has contrary information, I'd like to see/hear

about it.

The Kerouac Estate is worth far more than $1 million. Right now,

Mr. Sampas could accept $1 million offers from the Bancroft, the NY Public,

Stanford, and probably a few other libraries JUST FOR KEROUAC'S PAPERS. The

paintings and other artwork could probably bring another million dollars.

And the house in Florida and its furnishings could probably bring a third

million. (By the way, Jan wanted that house turned into a museum, or at

least have the furnishings in it, including JK's desk and typewriter, as

well as his clothing, put into a museum to recreate his work space, etc.)

None of this takes into account the potential movie deals for millions of

dollars on all of Jack's books, plus the steady stream of royalties (about

$200,000 a year) that the book sales generate; plus all the "bonuses" like

the $10,000 the Gap paid for Jack's image wearing khakis.

All from an estate that was legally valued at $91 when Jack died!

You ask: "Who should get all this money?" Well I'd vote for Paul

Blake, Jr., Jack's beloved nephew, getting at least some part of it. Paul,

absolutely poverty-stricken, just lost his home and has his family living in

a trailor on a neighbor's land.

OK: let's deal with Jan's money, as this keeps coming up over and

over. Federal copyright law said that when one of Kerouac's books hit the

28-year renewal period, the living child should come in for 50%. Kerouac's

first book renewed in 1978, but the Sampases held Jan off from getting any

of this money (with various legal maneuvers) until the beginning of 1986.

Jan's financial manager told me this: From 1986 thru 1988, her

income averaged around $17,000 a year. Then it jumped to about $33,000 for

the next three or four years; and then in 1993 it jumped to over $100,000.

That was her best year, because a television company had bought television

rights to ON THE ROAD for a large sum, and she got half of it. 1994 and

1995 were equally good years, with Kerouac's works taking off mightily, and

her income averaging around $100,000. In late 1995, however, John Sampas

cut off her foreign royalties (by another legal maneuver, which Jan's lawyer

thought questionable, but never had time to contest), and her income dropped

by about $20,000. In the last months, as Jan was dying, Sampas also figured

out other ways to cut down Jan's income, such as instructing agent Sterling

Lord to stop paying her any royalties from VISIONS OF CODY because 1/3 of

the book (the part that had been published by New Directions in 1959 or

1960) had fallen into public domain.

Remember, as a single person with no dependents, she had a huge tax

liability on all this. And remember, too, that she often needed to hire

helpers, drivers, etc. because of her own physical disability. She always

had significant medical costs (dialysis fluids, tests, specialists, etc.),

even though basic doctor care was provided by the kidney dialysis program at

Lovelace Hospital at a reasonable cost. And the last two+ years of her

life, she was also eaten up by mounting legal costs, probably to the tune of

$30 or $40 thousand.

More later. Off to see mom at the nursing home. As I mentioned

somewhere, she just had a second stroke and now can't walk at all--it breaks

my heart. When she could, she attended every Kerouac/Beat event that came

up, as many of you remember.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:31:12 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: More on dope

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 May 1997 11:46:32 -0400 from <JGERTZ@UNCA.EDU>

Isn't it pretty to think so!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:41:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: On The Road - UnCut

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 May 1997 13:24:52 -0400 from <stutz@DSL.ORG>

I had the pleasure of touring the Whitney with Allen Ginsberg one

evening. He pointed out to me that the reason the corner of the

manuscript was damaged was because Lucien Carr's dog chewed it up. An

interesting literary footnote.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:59:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

In-Reply-To: <199705021800.LAA17030@norway.it.earthlink.net>

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> Only he hasn't. As a matter of fact, Jan and I asked New York

> Public librarian Rodney Phillips why he didn't try to digitalize it, or

> otherwise preserve the crumbling scroll, while he had temporary possession

> of it.

> Phillips answered that, one, it would cost a lot of money to do

> this, and the NYPL wasn't going to spend a lot of money on something they

> didn't own. Number two, the thing is so fragile that if the NYPL guys had

> tried to unroll it or whatever, it might well have fallen apart, and they

> would have had a lawsuit from Sampas for injuring his property. I.e., the

> liability to the library was too great to do anything with it if they didn't

> actually own it.

> Phillips did say that if the library had actual ownership, they

> would undertake to preserve it right away.

So in other words, nobody has a copy of the text of the "real" version of

_On The Road_, and the original ~50-year-old source is crumbling away in

somebody's _basement_, brought out a couple times a decade to be put on

display in a glass cage?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:37:45 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Jake Barnes is beat (was "More on dope")

Someone wrote:

>

>Isn't it pretty to think so!

>

Thanks, Jake Barnes. If it's alcohol, surely Lady Brett would think so....

Now, speaking of Jake Barnes, I would say he IS beat. In fact, I think the

post-war disillusioned crowd (the lost generation) is the precursor for the

beats. They, too, were fed up with life and the illusion of "how things are"

and its failure to match up to the dream we all live for. The difference is

that the lost generation didn't see--couldn't see, perhaps--that there was

something to reach for, as I think the beats did see. The lost generation was

disillusioned, and that's it. The beats were disillusioned, but wouldn't let go

of the desire to find something better.

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:53:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

Quite apart from anything else, publishing this version as it was written

would be a publishing goldmine (not least because the estate could then

claim another 50 years copyright, as the Joyce and Lawrence estates have

done). But usually the estates wait until it's about to go into the publc

domain.

Small point to Gerry Nicosia - how ccome one third of VOC can slip into

public domain if it was published in the 50's. Surely New Directions, which

after all is still a very fine active publisher, would have renewed the

copyright after 28?

Nick W-W

>

>So in other words, nobody has a copy of the text of the "real" version of

>_On The Road_, and the original ~50-year-old source is crumbling away in

>somebody's _basement_, brought out a couple times a decade to be put on

>display in a glass cage?

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:24:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: On the Road - Uncut

Reply to Nick Weir-Williams:

Question: how come the New Directions VISIONS OF CODY slipped into

the public domain?

Answer: It was actually published 1960; the year for renewal was

1988. It was not up to ND to renew it, but up to Stella Sampas Kerouac and

the attorneys for her family, as well as their agent, Sterling Lord. They

just didn't bother renewing it; they also didn't bother with 7 other books

of Kerouac's, which are now in public domain.

Starting in 1990, after Stella's death, the only person who could

legally renew the copyright on Jack Kerouac's books was Jan Kerouac. But

neither the Sampases, their attorneys, nor Sterling Lord informed Jan of

this fact, and consequently BIG SUR (which was up for renewal that year)

also fell into public domain. By 1993, Jan had learned through her friend

Aram Saroyan of her sole right to renew her father's copyrights, and she

began renewing them, starting with DESOLATION ANGELS, in her name alone. I

believe she got as far as VANITY OF DULUOZ before she died. The Sampas

family, however, insist that those books are still half theirs, despite the

fact that the copyright registration in them (including VISIONS OF GERARD

and SATORI IN PARIS) reads: "Copyright renewal by Jan Kerouac." As Jan's

literary executor, I now retain sole right to authorize reprints of those

four books in the United States, though I expect the Sampas family will try

to contest me on this, as they contested Jan.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:28:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: On the Road - Uncut

In-Reply-To: <199705022224.PAA20162@denmark.it.earthlink.net>

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> They just didn't bother renewing it; they also didn't bother with 7 other

> books of Kerouac's, which are now in public domain.

Gerald, do you have a list of these books? Getting these digitized and on

the net would be a great start in preserving the Kerouac archive.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 16:50:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: On the Road - Uncut

There's a very strange by-product of the GATT free trade agreement signed a

year or two back regarding literary copyrights. It's too complicated to

bother the list with, but basically for a limited time anyone who failed to

register or renew a copyright can now go and do so, and get copyright

protection for the full-term they would have got if they'd done it properly.

Library of Congress could advise in detail. As Literary Executor I would

have thought this could be done by you.

Nick W-W

>Reply to Nick Weir-Williams:

> Question: how come the New Directions VISIONS OF CODY slipped into

>the public domain?

> Answer: It was actually published 1960; the year for renewal was

>1988. It was not up to ND to renew it, but up to Stella Sampas Kerouac and

>the attorneys for her family, as well as their agent, Sterling Lord. They

>just didn't bother renewing it; they also didn't bother with 7 other books

>of Kerouac's, which are now in public domain.

> Starting in 1990, after Stella's death, the only person who could

>legally renew the copyright on Jack Kerouac's books was Jan Kerouac. But

>neither the Sampases, their attorneys, nor Sterling Lord informed Jan of

>this fact, and consequently BIG SUR (which was up for renewal that year)

>also fell into public domain. By 1993, Jan had learned through her friend

>Aram Saroyan of her sole right to renew her father's copyrights, and she

>began renewing them, starting with DESOLATION ANGELS, in her name alone. I

>believe she got as far as VANITY OF DULUOZ before she died. The Sampas

>family, however, insist that those books are still half theirs, despite the

>fact that the copyright registration in them (including VISIONS OF GERARD

>and SATORI IN PARIS) reads: "Copyright renewal by Jan Kerouac." As Jan's

>literary executor, I now retain sole right to authorize reprints of those

>four books in the United States, though I expect the Sampas family will try

>to contest me on this, as they contested Jan.

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:41:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: More on dope

Blowing in the wind or pissing in the wind?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:07:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Public Domain

This means that these books that are in the public domain can be posted on

the internet.

It is too bad that Paul Blake cannot get royalties for them, but as they

are in the public domain, someone ought to get busy and get them up.

How about a beat-l ftp site?

What books are in the public domain?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:07:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: For Charles Plymell

Richard:

Thanks for the poem. It is helping inspire me to finish a long manuscript

that dissolves Apocalypse Rose and Forever Wider into one and goes beyond. It

is to be a reflection on the age of Apostasy X. After hearing on the list

the repitition of the song losing my religion...that's me on the corner, I

decided last night "Robbing the Pillars" a term used in coal mining as they

would knock down the supports while retreating from the cave.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:37:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

Coming soon from Upstart Crow Publishing:

Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

by Paul A. Maher Jr.

This will be published in a limited quantity of 500 copies this summer.

This will be available by reservation only.

More info is forthcoming.....

It is not so much as a dry, textual analysis of Kerouac's works in an

academic vein but instead, a celebration of Jack Kerouac and his

appreciation for many works of literature and its manifestation through much

of his work. The main focus will be obvious influences and also, with a look

at letters and journals, his awareness as a reader and writer. E-mail

privately to be informed at a later date. This will be the last posting here.

Also...Vol. I, No. 2 of The Kerouac Quarterly is in the editorial stage.

Thanks....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 21:31:04 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

PAM wrote:

>

> Coming soon from Upstart Crow Publishing:

>

> Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

> by Paul A. Maher Jr.

>

> This will be published in a limited quantity of 500 copies this summer.

> This will be available by reservation only.

> More info is forthcoming.....

>

> It is not so much as a dry, textual analysis of Kerouac's works in an

> academic vein but instead, a celebration of Jack Kerouac and his

> appreciation for many works of literature and its manifestation through much

> of his work. The main focus will be obvious influences and also, with a look

> at letters and journals, his awareness as a reader and writer. E-mail

> privately to be informed at a later date. This will be the last posting here.

> Also...Vol. I, No. 2 of The Kerouac Quarterly is in the editorial stage.

> Thanks....

Hi,

i've seen a few references to this Kerouac Quarterly thing and i was

wondering if you could tell me a bit more about it. since i'm on

disability with a conservater, i don't know whether i can convince him

to cover subscription rates and all that, but i'd like to get some

information just in case.

i just sat today reading through a poem i wrote years ago called

Mississippi which goes on for around 40 pages through lots of things

(excerpts from it were on Beat-L) Pooh and the feminists and Angel from

EBA's etc. (although i think they may be altered a bit from the original

stream - a cut up i guess technically) anyway ... the first words are "I

first met Jack Kerouac in Hanover New Hampshire ... not long after i

finished it, i wrote the thing about Jack in the grocery store today and

then did the Exploding Text poem tribute thing off of On Burroughs Work

and just when it sounded as though the day would wind down your message

hit the screen ....

and now i'm wondering about this Kerouac Quarterly thing .... i guess

there is always something to wonder about.

any info you can send my way would be appreciated

sincerely,

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:52:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mitchell Smith <WordKicks@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

Several years ago, I saw an article on the 82 Naropa K fest and it showed

Gerard Malanga photographing the scroll--unrolling it, recording the whole

thing. Does anyone (esp. Gerry) know anything about this project?

Mitchell Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 19:50:18 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "More on dope"@cruzio.com

JAY S. GERTZ wrote:

> Many of the prior arguments regarding legalizing drugs were flawed in one

> regard. Individual freedom is not marked by the absence of constraints.

Would you mind explaining what you are saying here?

Freedom

> comes from the soul, through exercising the heart and mind, and for those that

> have attained it, no prison can hold them.

Knowing that, and knowing even furthermore that the law has no power to

stop me from exercising the freedom and power of my soul, has led me to

not capitulate the integrity of my spirit to the bully power of legal

restraints. Does that mean that there is a flaw in my belief that the

government has no business, let alone legitimate rights, to dictate

what substances I use to nourish my consciousness? Are you saying there

is a flaw in my protest of the horrible punishment the governmewnt has

meted out to me and continues as we speak to mete out unspeakable

horrors to countless individuals for exploring drugs?

Are you saying that because the government has no power to imprison my

spirit, that it is therefore ok for it to imprison my body?

It is your kind of verbiage that is causing untold harm to people. At

the very least I would hope you would try to explain a bit more your

thinking here.

Thank you.

leon

> Kleb

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:47:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's questions, final chapter

Dear Attila, May 2, 1997

You may have picked up a booboo in my last installment. I wrote

that Jack Kerouac sold his Ginsberg letters to the University of Texas and

his Ginsberg letters to Columbia University--which makes no sense. I meant

to write, that he sold his BURROUGHS letters to Columbia University.

OK, now for the rest of your questions:

Another daughter? The daughter of Mary Carney and Jack? Judy

Machado? I've heard this claim second hand, mostly from Dean Contover of

the Lowell Kerouac Committee. I have no knowledge to disprove her, but I

certainly never came across anything that would suggest it was true. I'd

like to know more. For instance, did Mary Carney ever tell Jack that she

had his child? If she did, then it would puzzle me that, after reading more

than 2,000 of Kerouac's letters (many of which are in my archive in Lowell),

I never saw him mention this daughter once. On the other hand, he did

mention Jan quite a bit in his letters. I also wonder why she didn't come

forward before?

According to Dean, the only answer is a DNA test, and it might be

possible, since John Sampas has in his possession Jack's famous page where

he (Kerouac) spilled his own blood on paper to write "The Blood of the Poet"

in his own gore. A DNA test could presumably be done from that blood

sample. If I ever get a say in the disposition of the archive, I'd vote for

letting Judy have this test conducted. What does Mr. Sampas say?

Paul Blake, Jr., believes his grandmother would not have

disinherited him. He is upset that Stella did not notify him of his

grandmother's death till months after the fact; nor did Stella ever send him

a copy of his grandmother's will. He would like to see his Uncle Jack's

archive preserved in a library, and he signed a letter of intention with Jan

Kerouac to do just that, if they succeeded in wresting a controlling

interest in the archive away from the Sampas family in court. He loves his

family dearly, has worked for a living as a carpenter all his life, and has

no greed about making money off the archive, though certainly he could use

his 1/3 interest to finally provide some financial security for his family

(including 5 kids).

Paul's life is quite precarious, and he is at present one step away

from complete homelessness. His eldest son (his only actual blood child,

the others are stepchildren) Paul III, who's about 21 years old, has been

homeless several times in Nevada during the past couple of years.

Why would Jack Kerouac's will have been forged in 1973? Although

his estate was valued at $91 by his widow in 1969, it was clearly worth a

lot more even then. By 1973 several more books, including VISIONS OF CODY,

had been published posthumously, and people like Coppola were showing

interest in movie and dramatic rights. It would not have taken a psychic to

predict that the estate was someday going to be worth a lot of money.

If Jan Kerouac's lawsuit in Florida goes to trial, and if she wins

(that is, if her Estate wins), her heirs will still be able to claim 1/3 of

everything, both physical property and rights to unpublished material. As

her literary executor, I may also have some say in what happens to all these

papers. As I have said over and over, I am pledged to carry out her "letter

of intention," which states her unequivocal desire to see all her father's

papers placed in a university library--preferably the Bancroft in Berkeley.

You mention John Sampas's explanation that he had to sell part of

the archive to take care of the rest. Since the copyrights alone were

earning the Sampas family about $100,000 a year, why couldn't they use some

of that money to take care of the archive? Besides, if they place the

material in a university, the university will do the cataloguing and

preservation. If I ever get to ask John Sampas question 3 (I haven't had an

answer to my first two), it would be: if it is expensive and burdensome to

pay for the care of the archive yourself, why not get it into a library

right away?

You state: "I also feel that John Sampas is now fully committed to

having Jack's papers going to some public institution." What evidence do

you have of this? After three years of my own intensive research, I have

been able to find no such evidence--and I have talked to librarians and

dealers all over the country. If Sampas is presently negotiating with a

library, why can't he tell us? Ginsberg let it be known a year in advance

that he was negotiating with Stanford, and it did not hurt his negotiations.

Why must these negotiations be kept secret? Also, WHAT IS TAKING SO LONG???

Mr. Sampas was made literary executor by his family over 6 years ago. That

is longer than it took the Allies to win World War II. It does not take that

long to get a bunch of boxes into a library, and to negotiate fair terms for

doing so.

In October, 1994, I had one of my periodic arguments with Ginsberg

about this same subject. Ginsberg came back to me, claiming he had just had

dinner with John Sampas, and that Sampas had told him, "I'll get the stuff

into the New York Public Library within 20 years." 20 years!!!??? How does

Mr. Sampas know that he'll be alive in 20 years to complete the deal, or

that the director of collections at the NYPL will be alive in 20 years, or

that any library in the country will even have money to purchase a

collection in 20 years? What about the Kerouac scholars who would like

access to the material today?

When Ginsberg told me that, my reply was: "Jan Kerouac won't live

another 20 years." She didn't. Neither did Ginsberg. DON'T YOU THINK THE

TIME FOR ACTION IS NOW??? IF MR. SAMPAS IS SINCERE, DOESN'T HE OWE THE

WORLD OF KEROUAC SCHOLARSHIP A DEMONSTRATION OF HIS SINCERITY, RIGHT NOW?

You ask if Sampas owns Jack Kerouac's property, shouldn't he have

the right to make as much money on it as he can? Legally he may have that

right. Morally, he doesn't. One doesn't destroy a national treasure just

for the sake of maximum profits--witness the fight now in northern

California over saving Headwaters Forest (virgin redwood forest) from the

buzzsaws of Pacific Lumber.

OK, I've answered about Jan's money in my last post, and last night

I explained that she was not on Medicaid, and in fact died with $10,000 in

unpaid medical bills.

Last question--point. You speak about the fact that there shouldn't

be this "animosity." I agree, but let's look at where it's coming from.

Also, you don't believe in a conspiracy. It was not Jan Kerouac who was

attacking Mr. Sampas; it was not me who was attacking Mr. Sampas. Mr.

Sampas has made an active effort to keep me from continuing my Kerouac

scholarship (calling Tom Staley at University of Texas in an attempt to stop

me from looking at Kerouac materials there). Sampas's former agent, Jacob

Hoye, called the University of California Press to try to keep them from

reprinting my book, MEMORY BABE. Sampas's agent Sterling Lord wrote me a

year and a half ago claiming MEMORY BABE was in copyright violation, in what

appeared yet another ploy to put my book out of print. As a matter of fact,

Viking/Penguin put MEMORY BABE out of print within weeks after signing a

six-book deal for unpublished Kerouac materials with John Sampas. Draw your

own conclusions.

Moreover, one of the organizers of the NYU 1995 Kerouac conference

told me (off the record) that it was John Sampas who wanted me and Jan

Kerouac kept out of that conference. Remember that without Mr. Sampas's

cooperation, they would have had no conference, no Kerouac manuscripts to be

read onstage, etc.

Jan Kerouac was not cutting down John Sampas's income month by

month; he was cutting down hers.

I have not taken legal action to try to get John Sampas kicked out

as literary executor of Stella's estate. But Mr. Sampas's new partner, John

Lash, is taking action to get me kicked out as Jan Kerouac's literary

executor. Moreover, Mr. Sampas has shown an active interest in the success

of Mr. Lash's proceeding against me, and is presumably supporting it.

My lawyer has not threatened John Sampas with a libel suit; his

lawyer has threatened me.

Mr. Sampas dominates every aspect of Jack Kerouac scholarship today.

He dictated to Ann Charters what Kerouac letters could be published, and

which ones couldn't, and which parts had to be censored. He hassled Steve

Turner about what photos could be used in his book ANGELHEADED HIPSTER, and

even complained that a photo of Jack with a teacup was shown on the book

jacket, since Mr. Sampas prefers the image of a non-drinking Kerouac to be

put forward to the world. He hassled Paul Maher about the use of a Kerouac

drawing on a bar napkin, which Mr. Maher put on the cover of his new magazine.

I supported Jan Kerouac in her lawsuit against the Sampas family

because I thought her motivation honorable and her cause just. That is the

most that I have done against Mr. Sampas.

It's true I've said some hard words about him. He's said some hard

words about me, including calling me "a piece of trash" in front of

Ginsberg, Robert Creeley, and a lobbyful of people at the Lowell Hilton.

But I'm ready to put all that behind me, if he is. I state right

here, I'll work with John Sampas any place, any time, to help get Jack

Kerouac's archive put on permanent deposit in a library, for all who are

interested, present and future generations, to study and learn from.

Now, can we hear from Mr. Sampas?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 02:42:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: New Q's for Nicosia

Gerry,

Despite what anyone may say about you elaborating on your own position in all

these posts, I for one, am glad to be able to hear about so many fascinating

aspects to JK and his legacy that I believe you're in a unique position to

comment on. A few questions that spring to mind:

1). Why did the Sampas family do little with the estate from 1973 (when

Memere died) to 1990 (when Stella died). Was it because as I think you said

in Memory Babe and maybe others have said too Stella hated Jack's "dirty

writings" and even threatened to burn them? Was it because there was no real

market for the material before the early 90's or did the various releases

trigger the market? I'm assuming many in the Sampas family were helpful when

you were researching Memory Babe in the late 70's/early 80's.

2). You mentioned JK's executor was Citizen's National Bank of St. Pete.

Are they still in the picture somehow today or is that all ancient history?

3). Why do you believe Allen Ginsberg sat on the fence on this whole estate

issue? I understand he didn't support Jan, but I never heard he denounced

her claims either.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 03:50:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dale F. Smith" <dale@PCANYTHING.COM>

Subject: Re: more on dope

<<<Individual freedom is not marked by the absence of constraints. Freedom

comes from the soul, through exercising the heart and mind, and for those that

have attained it, no prison can hold them.

Kleb>>>

yessa yessa yessa!

Dale F. Smith

dale@pcanything.com

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

---W.B. Yeats

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:34:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: New Q's for Nicosia

At 02:42 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Gerry,

>

>Despite what anyone may say about you elaborating on your own position in all

>these posts, I for one, am glad to be able to hear about so many fascinating

>aspects to JK and his legacy that I believe you're in a unique position to

>comment on. A few questions that spring to mind:

>

>1). Why did the Sampas family do little with the estate from 1973 (when

>Memere died) to 1990 (when Stella died). Was it because as I think you said

>in Memory Babe and maybe others have said too Stella hated Jack's "dirty

>writings" and even threatened to burn them? Was it because there was no real

>market for the material before the early 90's or did the various releases

>trigger the market? I'm assuming many in the Sampas family were helpful when

>you were researching Memory Babe in the late 70's/early 80's.

>

>2). You mentioned JK's executor was Citizen's National Bank of St. Pete.

> Are they still in the picture somehow today or is that all ancient history?

>

>3). Why do you believe Allen Ginsberg sat on the fence on this whole estate

>issue? I understand he didn't support Jan, but I never heard he denounced

>her claims either.

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

>Fog City

>Hi all! To be exact. Allen Ginsberg told a number of us in Lowell that in

his discussions with Stella, he asked about the unreleased works. She

quoted, " I wanted to wait until the right time when Jack would be

appreciated. I did not want the books to merely fade into obscurity." I

think we can look forward to numerous releases in the next few years. Among

them...the publication of Jack's notebooks. Good Day All! Paul of The

Kerouac Quarterly.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:03:37 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: grocery and other haunts

PAM wrote:

>

> >Hi Dave! You can recieve a copy for $5.00. Try submitting your poem for

> publication if you want. You may send both (or one or the other) to:

> The Kerouac Quarterly

> 34 North Rd. #7

> Chelmsford, MA. 01824 Thanks, Paul...

so i'm thinkin' about submitting the grocery poem to KQ. could people

more versed in verse be so kind as to send me some suggestions for

editing and revisions. please be brutal.

then i'll work it a bit massage it here and there and there and here

and then figure out a way to get my printer running so that i can print

it and send it earthmail.

i appreciate ideas from anyone out there. we're all born critics - just

some are born nice and polite too :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:37:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Jake Barnes is beat (was "More on dope")

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 May 1997 15:37:45 CDT from

<wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

On Fri, 2 May 1997 15:37:45 CDT Wes Lundburg said:

>Someone wrote:

>

>>

>>Isn't it pretty to think so!

>>

>

>Thanks, Jake Barnes. If it's alcohol, surely Lady Brett would think so....

>

>Now, speaking of Jake Barnes, I would say he IS beat. In fact, I think the

>post-war disillusioned crowd (the lost generation) is the precursor for the

>beats. They, too, were fed up with life and the illusion of "how things are"

>and its failure to match up to the dream we all live for. The difference is

>that the lost generation didn't see--couldn't see, perhaps--that there was

>something to reach for, as I think the beats did see. The lost generation was

>disillusioned, and that's it. The beats were disillusioned, but wouldn't let

>go

>of the desire to find something better.

>

>---Wes

Agreed.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:49:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's questions, final chapter

To readers of the list:

In one of Gerald Nicosia's posts he noted that:

"If Sampas is presently negotiating with a

library, why can't he tell us? Ginsberg let it be known a year in advance

that he was negotiating with Stanford, and it did not hurt his negotiations."

Just wanted to set the record straight, this is not true. Negotiations with

Stanford took less than a month, and until the agreement was reached no one

knew (nor was it anyone's business to know) that any negotiations were

underway.

Allen's legacy should be remembered in his oft-quoted saying "Candor prevents

paranoia".

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:13:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsy's position on "the squabble"

Bill Morgan,

I really like that line a lot... "Candor prevents paranoia".

You too are in a unique position to elaborate on Allen's thoughts regarding

the "Estate Controversy". Could you also answer the same question I just

posed to Gerry Nicosia - what were Allen's thoughts on the matter?

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:14:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

Dear Bill Morgan:

OK, I'm curious about the Stanford thing, because I remember

Ginsberg talking to me at least twice about the Stanford negotiations, and

as far as I remember, both times were before the archive actually landed at

Stanford. Do you have a date for when the the actual document transferring

ownership of Ginsberg's archive was signed? I have an exact date for at

least one of my meetings with Allen when we talked about this, because at

that meeting, witnessed by two other Kerouac scholars, Allen signed and

dated posters for us.

I'm not doubting you, I may well be wrong (i.e., he may already have

sold the archive secretly before he talked to me), but if you give me a

date, I'll know for sure.

Thanks for helping to get this point straight.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:22:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

I only have one thing that puzzles me...if there was never anything

deposited at the New York Public Library...how come when they had a show

highlighting rare manuscripts they owned, a significant amount of it was

Kerouac's? I have a catalog of the show in front of me right now and it does

not appear to me that nothing is in there. When I have time I will type up

what is on the list....one of those is a novel Jack wrote called "Bnzedrine

Vision"Or all of the notebooks to Mexico City Blues, drawings, letters, a

couple of sonnets, and other things. Remember, these are highlights of

material owned by the NYC Public Library, not everything. The name of the

show was The Hand of the Poet held from August 16th, 1996 - February 15,

1997. This is something no one has commented on but can be found out with

minimal research. Thanks, paul...

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:49:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

Response to Paul Maher's question:

What is all that Kerouac stuff doing in the New York Public Library?

The NYPL has been building a Beat/Kerouac collection since the 60's.

It is indeed one of the best in the country. One of their early

acquisitions was the manuscript of SATORI IN PARIS, which supposedly Fred

Jordan had simply held on to after Grove published the book. They have been

buying up Kerouac/Beat stuff whenever and wherever they can find it--IF THEY

CAN AFFORD IT. They reputedly bought a large collection of stuff from Ann

Charters last year for a quarter million bucks.

Both MEX CITY BLUES notebooks and BOOK OF DREAMS manuscripts are in

the NYPL. However, according to Jeffrey Weinberg, both were sold to PRIVATE

COLLECTORS, and later resold to the NYPL. There is even a polaroid of the

BOOK OF DREAMS notebook being sold to the private collector. Also, by the

way, Jack typed several versions of MEX CITY BLUES, and I don't think the

library has all those typed drafts--though I welcome Rodney Phillips (the

acquisition librarian) or anyone else at the NYPL to comment on this.

Jan and I asked Rodney Phillips if he had ever BOUGHT ANY KEROUAC

MATERIAL DIRECTLY FROM SAMPAS. My recollection is that he said no, though

there may have been a few things (letters of Jack to Stella?) that Sampas

did sell to the library. We asked why he hadn't bought the manuscripts,

other notebooks, etc., and he said the prices Sampas was asking were too

high. He did say that Sampas had DONATED A BUNCH OF XEROXES OF KEROUAC

LETTERS to the library.

Sampas also allowed the NYPL to SHOW THE ON THE ROAD MANUSCRIPT,

without selling it to them.

The NYPL would of course love to buy the entire Kerouac archive, but

the most they could pay for it is one million dollars (for everything,

thousands of different pieces). Sampas has declined to sell it to them at

that price (apparently not enough).

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:22:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

Yes...but isn't it fit to ponder that the dealer in question may be

representing the estate? I couldn't see the estate directly peddling this

important material to libraries without a middle man....

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:19:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: New Q's for Nicosia

To answer Jerry Cimino's questions:

(By the way, I realize I haven't answered everybody's questions in

the order they came in, and I still have a long backlog to answer, but I

have been trying to answer the most "urgent" questions first--urgent in

terms of the Albuquerque court case and also those that relate to the need

to get Kerouac's papers into a library NOW.)

As for me elaborating my position, well, as Thoreau might say, I

know my own side better than anyone else.

But I keep saying, I'd like others to correct me where I'm wrong or

my memory has faltered. (The past few years have been awfully busy, trying

to finish my own 1600 page Vietnam veteran book, raising a family, helping

Jan Kerouac. There are plenty of times when I make honest mistakes or

misremember things.)

I also keep saying, I'd like John Sampas, or one of his close

associates, to come forward here to represent HIS side of affairs. Isn't

that what the internet is all about? Open discussion, the equivalent of

"conversation on a street corner," the most recent court decision called it.

Nobody's going to get hurt here, we all want to find out the truth about

these matters--at least those of us who care about the future of scholarly

study in the Beat and Kerouac fields. I have no desire to perform a

monologue on this subject.

You ask why the Sampas family did almost nothing with Kerouac's

estate from 1973 (the death of Memere) to 1990 (the death of Stella).

Stella was in control--at least nominally--during those years. The word in

Lowell, especially from her brothers, was that she sought to "protect Jack"

from all the dirty things biographers wanted to write about him. At that

point, Charters' biography was the only one out, and the word was that

Stella hated it, felt it slandered Jack and his family. One reason the

Sampases cooperated with me so much at that time was because they wanted to

bury Charters' biography. Now, ironically, the situation is reversed, and

they have annointed Ann Charters as their spokesperson mainly to get rid of

me and MEMORY BABE.

Yes, there was word at the "inner circle" in Nicky's Bar that Stella

contemplated burning all Jack's papers, rather than let any scholars or

biographers (the people she hated most) see them.*

(*As a historical footnote, the "inner circle" at Nicky's was an

actual round table far in the back, at which sat, at different times, Tony

Sampas, Nick Sampas, Billy Koumantzelis, Joe Chaput, Pancho Gonzales, a

famous Brinks robber who was Tony's friend, Chiefy Nobriga, a bartender who

went way way back with Tony, and myself, thanks to Tony's accepting me into

the circle.**)

(**Second historical footnote. Tony Sampas helped me hugely with my

biography, took me upstairs in Nicky's to show me drawers full of Kerouac

notebooks and manuscripts, played private Kerouac tapes for me, etc. And

despite all this bickering with the "Sampas family," which mainly has to do

with John Sampas's opposition to me and my book, Tony and I have never

fallen out. In fact, a couple of years ago in Lowell, I saw Tony in a bar,

and I walked over to his table. I said, "Tony, nobody in your family will

talk to me any more. Are YOU still talking to me?" He said, "Of course, I

never stopped talking to you." And we sat down and caught up on a lot of

years.)

To some extent, John Sampas and other members of Stella's family

have kept up her campaign to "protect Jack's memory." I received complaints

from some of them that my biography made Jack look like 1) a homosexual 2) a

drunk 3) a man who was rude to women; and 4) that I made people think Jack

wanted to divorce Stella--all of which they deny is true. From 300

interviews, and 20 years of scholarship, I still conclude that 1) Jack was a

practicing bisexual 2) he was a drunk and died from alcohol; 3) he could be

very rude to women or anyone else when drunk; and 4) he absolutely wanted to

divorce Stella.

Recently I heard from Steve Turner that John Sampas had hassled him

over his book ANGELHEADED HIPSTER, and that he had wanted Turner to remove

passages referring to Jack's alcoholism and bisexuality.

In 1983, when I was invited (because of MEMORY BABE) to speak at a

big convention of the National Society of Arts & Letters in Clearwater

Beach, Florida, I drove over to St. Pete, with my mother (to seem less

threatening) and knocked on Stella's door. I wanted to tell her that,

indeed, my book had brought honor, not disgrace, to Jack, and to invite her

to attend my keynote speech on Kerouac at the NSAL dinner in Clearwater that

evening.

Stella slammed the door in my face. Then her sister reopened the

door and apologized that Stella hadn't been well.

Nowadays I think there may be one more plausible explanation. If

Gabe's will WAS forged, and IF STELLA KNEW IT, she may have wanted to keep

as far from biographers and the press as possible, to keep that crime hidden.

After Gabe's death, Citizen's National Bank of St. Pete went out of

the picture, and Stella became the executor for the Estate of Gabrielle

Kerouac. Then John Sampas became the executor for the Estate of Stella

Sampas Kerouac. I mention this only because, when John Sampas calls himself

Jack Kerouac's literary executor, there is an implication that Jack picked

him for this job.

I have never fully understood Allen's refusal to help Jan, which

wounded Jan deeply. I wish Bill Morgan could shed some light on this. I

have often speculated that it had to do with Ann Charters assuring Allen

(and he trusted her) that the Sampases were taking great care of Jack's

stuff. Of course Ann Charters was well compensated for promoting the

Sampases' position.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:51:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: digests

question- how does one get off the digest mode?

SET BEAT-L NORMAL....?

SET BEAT-L NONDIGEST....?

?

being severely technologically challenged, i cant seem to open any of the

downloaded digestlists and such, ere go, i may as well go back to the regular

mode of listserv reception. just need to figure out how, first. thanks.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:00:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: oops

should have sent that one to "listserv" not BEAT-L.

sorry bout that.....

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:17:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: May Day Blues-May Day Reds

In-Reply-To: <3368C2A5.2435@midusa.net>

>i've been checking my door, mailbox and e-mail (even my bathroom window)

>every ten seconds or so since three this morning hoping to catch a

>maybasket.

>

>hope y'all get maybaskets.

>

>this can be an imaginary cyber-basket on May Day. include what ever you

>like in yours.

>

>david rhaesa

>

>haven't got the old may Pole out yet. i think it's rusty.

dr,

In Chicago for May Day. Great May Day feast and celebration with friends.

Returned to Madison to find a May Basket--my first in years. In the basket

a copy of the Progressive Oklahoman, odds and ends of clippings regarding

Socialism, an invitation to the Haymarket Tour May 11 and some red jelly

beans. That basket and your post has me marking my calender. Next year I'm

going to hang baskets--introduce the kids in the neighborhood to the

original, US, worker's holiday.

Reminds me of a conversation with Meridel LeSueur years ago. She was down

in Mexico. Had stopped in a little town (she'd forgotten the name) Was

sitting on the edge of the fountain in the center of the town square and

noticed that the names of the Haymarket Square vistims were enlaid on the

stone work arounf the foundation of the structure.

As a kid on a north country farm (Mnesota) the hanging of baskets on May

Day was much more popular that trick 'n treating on Halloween.

Thanks for the cyber-basket. Real treat. I'll roll a cyber-number and kick

back.

jo

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:28:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Dylan-Plymell

In-Reply-To: <199705011632.JAA29644@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

>Charlie Plymell, I love your reminiscences, and wonder when (or if you have

>already) written a book of them. But here's a slight correction. I may be

>mistaken, but I could swear Al Aronowitz told me he'd introduced Dylan to

>Ginsberg in 1961-1962. (Aronowitz was the guy who did the great 1959 NY

>POST series on the Beats, and later was their rock pop columnist in the

>Sixties, the guy who introduced Dylan to the Beatles and gave the Beatles

>their first hit of marijuana, etc.) We could all find out if somebody

>emailed Al, who's considered himself the Blacklisted Journalist for the last

>two decades, at blackj@bigmagic.com.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

Read some of the great material Al Aronowitz wrote at:

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/

and hope this material can end up in a book someday.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:43:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

In-Reply-To: <199705030347.UAA15498@denmark.it.earthlink.net>

On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> Mr. Sampas dominates every aspect of Jack Kerouac scholarship today.

> He dictated to Ann Charters what Kerouac letters could be published, and

> which ones couldn't, and which parts had to be censored.

What's this?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:06:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

At 11:49 AM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Response to Paul Maher's question:

> What is all that Kerouac stuff doing in the New York Public Library?

> The NYPL has been building a Beat/Kerouac collection since the 60's.

>It is indeed one of the best in the country. One of their early

>acquisitions was the manuscript of SATORI IN PARIS, which supposedly Fred

>Jordan had simply held on to after Grove published the book. They have been

>buying up Kerouac/Beat stuff whenever and wherever they can find it--IF THEY

>CAN AFFORD IT. They reputedly bought a large collection of stuff from Ann

>Charters last year for a quarter million bucks.

> Both MEX CITY BLUES notebooks and BOOK OF DREAMS manuscripts are in

>the NYPL. However, according to Jeffrey Weinberg, both were sold to PRIVATE

>COLLECTORS, and later resold to the NYPL. There is even a polaroid of the

>BOOK OF DREAMS notebook being sold to the private collector. Also, by the

>way, Jack typed several versions of MEX CITY BLUES, and I don't think the

>library has all those typed drafts--though I welcome Rodney Phillips (the

>acquisition librarian) or anyone else at the NYPL to comment on this.

> Jan and I asked Rodney Phillips if he had ever BOUGHT ANY KEROUAC

>MATERIAL DIRECTLY FROM SAMPAS. My recollection is that he said no, though

>there may have been a few things (letters of Jack to Stella?) that Sampas

>did sell to the library. We asked why he hadn't bought the manuscripts,

>other notebooks, etc., and he said the prices Sampas was asking were too

>high. He did say that Sampas had DONATED A BUNCH OF XEROXES OF KEROUAC

>LETTERS to the library.

> Sampas also allowed the NYPL to SHOW THE ON THE ROAD MANUSCRIPT,

>without selling it to them.

> The NYPL would of course love to buy the entire Kerouac archive, but

>the most they could pay for it is one million dollars (for everything,

>thousands of different pieces). Sampas has declined to sell it to them at

>that price (apparently not enough).

>

>Gerry, I just looked at an uncorrected proof of "Some of the Dharma" and on

one of the first pages it states that the manuscript/notebooks (maybe 8 of

them can't remember how many)for "Some of the Dharma" were placed in the

Berg collection of the New York Public Library in 1993 by John Sampas. What

do you have to say about that? If it's not true why would it be in the book?

By the way Gerry the folks at Lowell Celebrates Kerouac all work very hard

to promote Kerouac and you are doing a terrible disservice when you go and

try to put us down because in your mind we are all part of the Sampas

conspiracy theory. I can assure you that many of the decent folks that work

hard to put this festival on every year don't know or care about your

squabbles with the Sampas family. Ed Sanders the main feature at the

festival last year did do a nice little tribute to Jan Kerouac at the

festival. You know what his hotel bill was paid isn't that amazing? I'm not

sure but the probable reason you or Jan haven't been asked to speak is

because it's not "Lowell Celebrates Lawsuits" it's "Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac" and I'm quite sure that is what your agenda would be. It seems to

be your only one lately. We accept donations from anyone willing to give and

I haven't heard of any checks coming in from you ever. Maybe you would like

it better if no one donated anything and we didn't promote Kerouac at all in

Lowell. It seems like that is what you want. Keep your beef with John

private and don't try to drag down people that truly want to do some good

and promote Kerouac. Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:55:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Gatt implications to intellectual property....

Nick,

First of all, thanks for your sig file with its the regular reminder

of the proper approach to getting - "don't let the bastards grind you down"

...lots better than my two Roman legionaire standbyes, "Nolo urinare contra

ventum." and "Semper ubi sub ubi."

Reading about the confused situation regarding the Kerouac estate,

and now seeing the intricacies of copyright renewal and the potential for

misses, has been an odd mix of feeling disheartened together with a sense of

tension and suspense as each new twist is unveiled.

The digitization idea of Michael Stutz is an excellent one and made

me wonder if there is much web access to digitized works of the size of the

Kerouac novels. The Gatt twist seems an incredibly important development in

the intellectual property area. What are the specific limitations to

applying this. Is it obscure enough that Gerald Nicosia or the Sampas family

would have missed the chance that it provided? Gerald / Gerry?

This seems to make it important to have/build an index of what the

copyright renewal options are on the whole body of Beat lierature even

though we're ten to twenty years past the critical time period for renewal.

Does the publishing industry maintain such a resource? Anyway,I hope that

you and the otehrs involved in publishing in all its froma will continue to

educate us.

Thanks Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:55:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Cornix?

Michael,

What's the Cornix web applet that you refer to?

>I heard there was absolutely no punctuation in the original OTR. I want to

>use the Cornix web applet (http://www.halcyon.com/chigh/corndemo.html) on

>said ASCII file of OTR to view it word-at-a-time on giant screens.

On big screens? Why?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 20:59:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Old memory

Comments: To: gnicosia@earthlink.net

The other eve. I read in the K battles that someone was called "piece of

trash" or something to that effect. Also a while back someone asked me about

the bar scene after the Buckley show and said that was Allen's last meeting

with K and were they arguing? My trashy memory is coming back: After getting

K disengaged from Capote we went to a trashy bar and occupied a large booth.

I was wedged beside two dorky guys who kept ordering beer and shots. I was

thinking to myself they must have been the only people K could have found to

drive him into the city. I don't like to sit in bars much but can if there is

interesting company. I sat mostly silent because I felt there was little to

talk about. Allen was having a serious conversation with K. but I didn't pay

much attention because it seem Allen was always having serious conversations

even when everyone else was drinking. K was drunk or drunker. It wasn't a

happy bar like setting, and now that I think of it, the atmosphere was

imposing. I sat on the oustide, so I could walk around frequently because I

felt I had nothing to say except small talk about driving to or from the

city. We stayed there for an hour or two. I remember now that Allen, always

the polite one, had earlier introduced these two guys, or at least one of

them as a relative of K's.

Can anyone help me discern historically the import of the evening?

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:14:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dylan-Plymell

Comments: To: blackj@bigmagic.com, gnicosia@earthlink.net

In a message dated 97-05-02 08:57:26 EDT, you write:

<< >

> In a message dated 97-05-01 13:12:00 EDT, you write:

>

> << Charlie Plymell, I love your reminiscences, and wonder when (or if you

> have

> already) written a book of them. But here's a slight correction. I may

be

> mistaken, but I could swear Al Aronowitz told me he'd introduced Dylan to

> Ginsberg in 1961-1962. (Aronowitz was the guy who did the great 1959 NY

> POST series on the Beats, and later was their rock pop columnist in the

> Sixties, the guy who introduced Dylan to the Beatles and gave the Beatles

> their first hit of marijuana, etc.) We could all find out if somebody

> emailed Al, who's considered himself the Blacklisted Journalist for the

last

> two decades, at blackj@bigmagic.com.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

> >>

> Gerry: You may be correct. Al (whom I've recently been in touch

with...and

> fwd'd this post) is credited with having introduced them. That seems early

> for my recollection in the Fall of '63 when I played Dylan's "Blowing"

for

> him. He either said or it was assumed by all present that he hadn't heard

it.

> It may be that he hadn't heard that album, or it may be he was playing

mum,

> or hadn't heard him sing? It's an interesting assertion and thanks for

> calling my attention to it...makes me wonder? No, I'm not writing any more

> memiors, just on the list.

> C.Plymell

don't understand. Does Plymell claim that he intro'd Allen to BoB? Can

I see his reminiscences? --Al

--

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj >>

Al, Gerry, and Beat-L:

..er what claim did I make exactly? I'm sure that I played D's album to Allen

in 1963. By all accounts of those present and Karen Wright who brought the

album to Gough St. Allen hadn't heard it. I don't see anything in my post

that makes the claim that I introduced Allen to Bob which I didn't. I am

interested in the dates of Al's meeting and did Allen seem receptive to

Dylan's music at that time?

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:54:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ann Charters article on Estate Battle

The other day someone mentioned Ann Charters wrote an article giving "the

other sides" version of the estate battle. Could someone summarize it so

those of us who haven't read it know what points she made.

Thanks

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:11:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

What this IS is another of Gerry's garbled, exaggerated, self-serving

paranoid delusions, based mostly upon his child-like "wish-thinking" view of

the world we inhabit.

As Gerry knows, there are problems with the editing of SELECTED LETTERS --

mistakes, undeclared cuts, and even questionable/debatable cuts in places --

but to extrapolate from that situation, to this new fantasy of his that John

Sampas DICTATED precisely which letters were to be included in the book (and

which were to be left out?), and which parts of those letters were to be cut,

is utter nonsense. Gerry knows this, unless he has surrendered utterly to his

delusions, but -- Beat-List people! -- for the time being it serves Gerry's

purpose that you all accept HIS version of the truth, in this matter, and in

every other Estate matter discussed on the List this week. John Sampas is the

world's worst villain. Ann Charters is either his skilled, paid henchman, or

his willing stooge -- whichever version Gerry is peddling at a given moment.

Myself, I am also, it now seems, one of John's close allies -- this fiction

is posted by Gerry even though he has himself written, in several articles,

about exactly how it was that I ended up, permanently, on the unwritten

Sampas "Enemies List."

But our wee Gerry wears people down -- he exhausts them frankly. For myself,

at the end of a painful week, brevity, if not complete silence, seems the

best reponse. So, just one final thought. I really liked Mark Hemenway's

notion, a while back, that nothing in this matter is what it might first seem

to you to be, and that the only way to sort things out is to do some research

on your own. Don't just listen to Gerry, don't just listen to ME, don't JUST

LISTEN to anybody! Ask questions. And be sceptical -- very sceptical -- of

the answers.

All for now. CHEERS, Rod A.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:40:20 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

I'm certainly not an expert on this and am trying hard not to be.

Important as this matter is to serious K. scholars my reaction is "what

a dismal tiring mess Jack's estate was." I tend to read the posts

quickly and delete quickly. But two things keep bothering me. I

remember when the whole business of Jan's claims kept coming up I was

waiting to hear from AG who I thought probably had something important

to say. He never emerged as one of Jan's supporters, unlike people who

had little contact with Kerouac like Kesey and Co. I hope someone, Bill

Morgan perhaps, can shed some light on this. Ann Charters has not been

heard from in this list discussion. It seems she would deserve to be

heard as a respectable Kerouac scholar also. I think I agree with Rod

that big doses of scepticism are called for in regard to anybodies

claims in this affair.

James Stauffer

Rod Anstee wrote: . . .

Don't just listen to Gerry, don't just listen to ME, don't JUST

> LISTEN to anybody! Ask questions. And be sceptical -- very sceptical -- of

> the answers.

> All for now. CHEERS, Rod A.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:14:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

Rod Anstee wrote:

>

> What this IS is another of Gerry's garbled, exaggerated, self-serving

> paranoid delusions, based mostly upon his child-like "wish-thinking" view

of... For myself,

> at the end of a painful week, brevity, if not complete silence, seems the

> best reponse. So, just one final thought. I really liked Mark Hemenway's

> notion, a while back, that nothing in this matter is what it might first seem

> to you to be, and that the only way to sort things out is to do some research

> on your own. Don't just listen to Gerry, don't just listen to ME, don't JUST

> LISTEN to anybody! Ask questions. And be sceptical -- very sceptical -- of

> the answers.

> All for now. CHEERS, Rod A.

this has been a interesting and informative thread for me. having

listened to many sides, and learned a lot about history and copyright

and the libraries, i have to state that, lack of information in some of

these posts, that use vindictive namecalling and vicious intimidation

instead of thought, reason, and facts to support their veiw make me

think of two different cliches

wheres the beef,

i am glad to be a woman, (meaning to cherish the logical mind with the

cool objective reason that there is probably no right, little justice

and that the case in court will be best decided in court). I am most

interested in, was the will forged, are the papers safe and will the

ever really be accesible.

I do not wish to remember a jack k who didn't drink. or wasn't

sometimes an ass hole, or one that didn't change literature into

something just a little more alive. I am pretty sure he was at least

those three things.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:54:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: t-shirts

At 04:27 PM 4/30/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Three cheers for Jeffrey on a job well done!

>

>Bill or Jeff, what are these shirts going to be? Will it say beat-l on them

I haven't been following the post like I should have and now that I am

reading it it sounds like it will be nice.Keep me informed. Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:17:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

At 10:11 PM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:

>What this IS is another of Gerry's garbled, exaggerated, self-serving

>paranoid delusions, based mostly upon his child-like "wish-thinking" view of

>the world we inhabit.

Well, I've got to give Rod Anstee credit--he managed to get seven

insults into one sentence. That's probably a record. He gave up trying to

prove that I'm a self-serving Macchiavellian and has now reverted to

Sampas's earlier claims: that I'm just a crazy man.

"Don't listen to Nicosia--he's just a nut they should have locked up

long ago."

Fine, guys, but the judge in Albuquerque didn't think so.

I wish Rod would come clean for once, and tell you all that he is a

Kerouac collector. He bought up a bunch of pieces of the Kerouac archive

for himself, through his friend Jeffrey Weinberg. Then he was honest enough

for a while to tell me what was going on; but what happened is Sampas got

mightily pissed at him for blowing the whistle, and then Annie Charters, his

old buddy, got so pissed at him for blabbing that she cut out the big thank

you she gave him in the acknowledgements of Kerouac's SELECTED LETTERS. In

the galley proofs she thanked him profusely; by the time the book came out,

she lumped him in with seventeen other people who "also helped."

Rod's letter is preposterous. If any of you have been following

last week's letters, I have said over and over again that I would like to

put all the bad feelings, angry words, on both sides behind John Sampas and

myself--that as Jan Kerouac's literary executor, I would like to work with

him on getting the Kerouac archive on deposit in a library, and I am willing

to begin speaking with him about this on any terms he chooses. I have

called for John Sampas to join in a dialogue on the subject of preserving

Kerouac's archive, here on the internet. I have said I have no grudge

against John Sampas, and that I want to see only 3 things--John Sampas do

right by Jack Kerouac's work, by his daughter's memory, and by his family

(Paul Blake, Jr.) I have never called John Sampas "the world's worst

villain." This is pure Anstee poppycock.

I did not say Sampas "dictated precisely which letters" were

included in the book--again, this is Anstee talking, not Nicosia. I did say

Sampas told Charters that certain letters couldn't be published, certain

ones (especially those to Sammy and Stella) could and should be, and he also

made sure certain passages--especially those dealing with Jack's bisexuality

and other "dark side" characteristics--be taken out. Back in the days when

Ann Charters was still talking to me (circa August 1993) we had a long talk

on the phone, and she told me of the problems she was having with Sampas

censoring the collection. I suggested she use my archive at U Mass, Lowell,

because I had a lot of letters from Kerouac to his girlfriends, such as Lois

Sorrells. Ann told me Sampas didn't want her putting in Jack's letters to

his girlfriends--it detracted from his relationship with Stella. Ann also

told me that Sampas had forbidden her to put in any letters from Joyce

Johnson, because the Sampases were furious with Johnson after a piece she

had written about their relationship with Kerouac in FAME magazine. More

recently, Ann gave an interview to a literary magazine in which she talked

about some of the things John Sampas asked her to take out of the letters.

Those of you who looked closely at the text of the letters saw that

there were TWO HUNDRED ELLIPSES, that's two hundred places where you see ...

(dot dot dot) indicating material was removed. I've traced a number of

those passages down in copies of Kerouac letters I have, and many of them

have to do with sexual and other "dark side" issues of Kerouac--including

his antisemitism. Ann Charters never bothered to explain what was in those

missing passages. Then Mr. Anstee along with Dave Moore of England (founder

of the former magazine THE KEROUAC CONNECTION) found that THERE ARE ANOTHER

TWO HUNDRED DELETIONS in the SELECTED LETTERS where Ann Charters has

completely failed to mark the omission--not even a dot dot dot. SECRET

CUTS, you might call them. That's 400 omissions in a book 600 pages long.

I'll be glad to reprint some of that Ann Charters interview here if

I can dig it out. Anstee himself was working on an essay called "1400 Dots"

in which he looked at the kind of passages Ann Charters cut out. I helped

him with this by spending a whole day in my private attic archive, digging

out copies of Kerouac letters that would help him trace down these missing

passages. But Anstee never published "1400 Dots." I guess politically he

figured it was time to make friends with the Charters/Sampas group again.

Instead of any more attacks on Nicosia's mental capacity, Rod, why

don't you print "1400 Dots" here on the internet? Afraid Mr. Sampas might

not sell you any more Kerouac pieces if you do?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:17:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's questions, final chapter

Response to Paul Maher:

The private individuals who purchased MEX CITY BLUES notebooks and

BOOK OF DREAMS manuscript were not professional dealers. I don't claim to

have all the info on this subject. I'm not, after all, a private

investigator. I also don't think there has to be this huge cloak of secrecy

over the whole affair. If John Sampas has empowered certain dealers to sell

Kerouac materials only to the New York Public Library, or only to libraries,

I wish he'd step forth and let us know. Everyone would applaud that,

including me.

There's been a lot of games-playing here, and I'm calling for an end

to it. Jack Kerouac is too important to American literature to have people

playing hide-and-seek with his archive.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:43:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: virtual Fillmore

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

James and Leon:

Thanks for taking me to the virtual Fillmore. I can see bashful Annie's face

as she tried to remember (the) who. That's him on the corner.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 21:53:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila's questions, final chapter

Answer to Phil Chaput's latest:

Jeffrey Weinberg told me he sold BOOK OF DREAMS to a private

collector. Jeffrey and I don't always get along--we're both hot-tempered,

feisty sorts--but I have never accused him of dishonesty. I think Jeffrey

is completely honest and above-board, and I have never attacked him.

Moreover, unlike Mr. Sampas, Ann Charters, and other Sampas supporters, he

has not been totally cagey and evasive with me. Quite the contrary, he has

talked to me openly twice--for more than an hour each time--about how, why,

and to whom he sold Kerouac artifacts. Bravo for that honesty!!!

Sampas did not instruct Weinberg to sell Kerouac artifacts only to

libraries. Quite the opposite, he told him to sell them where they would

fetch the most money. I hold nothing against him for selling off pieces of

the Kerouac archive. He was doing his job--dealers take people's archives

and they sell them, if asked to do so, for maximum profits. If Jeffrey

hadn't taken on the job, Sampas would quickly have found another dealer to

do that work for him. He has, in fact, found other dealers.

The fact is, I hate to drag Jeffrey Weinberg into this here. I know

he doesn't need this kind of publicity. But I'm really getting tired of all

you folks pretending that the great sell-off of Kerouac artifacts didn't happen.

I don't know what route the BOOK OF DREAMS took back into the New

York Public Library. But the fact is, all those manuscripts were offered

for sale to private dealers and collectors. Ken Lopez, Richard Marcel,

James Musser, and a host of other dealers will attest to this.

All these personal attacks on me!!! Now I'm a bad guy for not

donating to a committee that has tried everything in the book to keep me out

of Lowell. Oh, I suppose that's a lie too. Well let's get Brad Parker here

on the Internet. Brad Parker is president of the Lowell Corporation for the

Humanities. He was the person who arranged for me to come and speak in

Lowell in 1988 at the dedication of the Kerouac Memorial. When people on

the Lowell Kerouac Committee heard he was doing that, they tried everything

they could to stop him. Paul Marion told him he would "play hardball" with

him, lock up every venue in town so that he'd have no place to put me, and

there were suggestions that Parker's funding might be attacked as well. The

whole history of this event, and how Parker finally triumphed in bringing

not only me but also Jan to Lowell in 1988, is a saga in itself, which I'm

not going to bore the BEAT-L readers with now. But after all that, I should

donate to this committee??? Jan's lawsuit was filed in 1994. Yet neither

Jan nor I were invited from 1988 through 1993. And when I showed up in 1993

and my event was publicized by Michael McClure, both Parker and I were

called a "son of a bitch!" by one of the leaders of the Lowell Kerouac

Committee, Roger Brunelle. YOU'LL GET MY FIRST CHECK AS SOON AS I GET MR.

BRUNELLE'S APOLOGY.

"Keep my beef with John Sampas private"? I'm not concerned about

John Sampas. He'll be wealthy for the rest of his life, and I truly hope he

finds happiness. Since you can't hear the tone of my voice, I say that

WITHOUT A TRACE OF SARCASM. I AM concerned about what he's doing to a

national literary treasure, the papers and manuscripts of Jack Kerouac

Bill Morgan was on the internet earlier today, informing us that it

only took one month for Ginsberg to complete his negotiations to get his

entire archive (larger than Kerouac's) into Stanford.

Instead of all these distracting attacks on Nicosia, why don't one

of you folks simply answer the BIG QUESTION: WHAT IS KEEPING MR. SAMPAS

FROM PUTTING JACK KEROUAC'S ARCHIVE INTO A LIBRARY RIGHT NOW???

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:59:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

In a message dated 97-05-03 23:33:53 EDT, you write:

<< I am most

interested in, was the will forged, are the papers safe and will the

ever really be accesible.

I do not wish to remember a jack k who didn't drink. or wasn't

sometimes an ass hole, or one that didn't change literature into

something just a little more alive. I am pretty sure he was at least

those three things.

patricia

>>

Patricia: I just wrote Andrew who helped clarify an evening with Allen and

Jack and some others whose names I couldn't remember. I told him what I

thought of the Kerouac estate battle. I have similar conclusions as you.

Andrew:

Thanks for helping me clarify the night. Yes, my wife Pam and I drove Allen

to the show in a Mercedes that we were delivering to S.F. We natch tagged

with Allen because he had to stay with us to drive to the Big Pink's house

and then to Cherry Valley. I think Peter was in Cherry Valley. Ed Sanders

was already at the Buckley show. We stayed the whole time and left with K, Ed

& Allen. I think the other guys were with us at that time. Seems Allen

introduced us as we were deciding on a bar.

I never saw Jack after that night.

I'm interested in the controversy (estate) in so far as I'd just like to know

who ends up being the biggest chickenshit(s). Other than that, I'd like to

think that the literary archives are available for scholars to study. I know

that there are many fights over wills. Nothing unusual in that.

Yeah Robt Kelly will be at Oneonta. He's a friend of Dr. Pat Meanor (who is

friends with Allen's cousin, Joel Ghademak). Pat invited me to his beat

course and invites authors such as Kelly to read there.

C.Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 01:21:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat-L T-shirts

Phil:

The artwork for the T-shirt is being drawn by SF underground comix legend, S.

Clay Wilson. S. Clay visited Charlie Plymell over Easter weekend and Charlie

put Wilson on line to converse with the list - and we decided as a group to

approach Wilson for the job of doing the artwork for a Beat-l T-shirt.

I spoke with S. Clay last week, we negotiated some details, and I sent him a

check yesterday. Wilson ran some ideas by me and I asked him to include the

Beat-L name and internet address in the design.

Water Row Books is sponsoring the shirts by contributing the funds needed to

pay Wilson and have the shirts made. The shirts will be offered to Beat-L

members at cost plus shipping.

I will keep the list notified of the progress and will offer to send members

a copy of the artwork if they want to see it first before buying one.

When the final cost and shipping date are determined, I'll let the Beat-L

know.

Thanks -

Jeffrey Weinberg

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:35:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Public Domain

Some of you have inquired about the seven Kerouac books that are in

public domain. I mentioned two of them already, the original limited

edition of VISIONS OF CODY put out by New Directions in 1960, which is about

1/3 of the final posthumous text; and BIG SUR.

I was about to mention the other five, but got a note from the

director of Northwestern University Press that I should look into this GATT

thing, of recapturing lost copyrights. I had always heard that once a book

was in public domain, it stays there forever. OKAY, before I go any further

here, I better do my legal homework. If anybody knows anything about this,

please let me know.

I think it's a great idea a couple of you had, to put these texts up

on the Web.

More on this subject later.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 01:49:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Estate Research

Both Rod and Mark have suggested we each do our own research on the

"controversy" prior to passing judgement. My question is what sources are

being suggested? I asked earlier for someone to post a summary of the Ann

Charters article and I hope someone does so. What other evidence would

anyone suggest that refutes what Gerry Nicosia has been telling us? Who

should we talk to? What should we read?

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 02:06:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

At 08:06 PM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:

>At 11:49 AM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>Response to Paul Maher's question:

>> What is all that Kerouac stuff doing in the New York Public Library?

>> The NYPL has been building a Beat/Kerouac collection since the 60's.

>>It is indeed one of the best in the country. One of their early

>>acquisitions was the manuscript of SATORI IN PARIS, which supposedly Fred

>>Jordan had simply held on to after Grove published the book. They have been

>>buying up Kerouac/Beat stuff whenever and wherever they can find it--IF THEY

>>CAN AFFORD IT. They reputedly bought a large collection of stuff from Ann

>>Charters last year for a quarter million bucks.

>> Both MEX CITY BLUES notebooks and BOOK OF DREAMS manuscripts are in

>>the NYPL. However, according to Jeffrey Weinberg, both were sold to PRIVATE

>>COLLECTORS, and later resold to the NYPL. There is even a polaroid of the

>>BOOK OF DREAMS notebook being sold to the private collector. Also, by the

>>way, Jack typed several versions of MEX CITY BLUES, and I don't think the

>>library has all those typed drafts--though I welcome Rodney Phillips (the

>>acquisition librarian) or anyone else at the NYPL to comment on this.

>> Jan and I asked Rodney Phillips if he had ever BOUGHT ANY KEROUAC

>>MATERIAL DIRECTLY FROM SAMPAS. My recollection is that he said no, though

>>there may have been a few things (letters of Jack to Stella?) that Sampas

>>did sell to the library. We asked why he hadn't bought the manuscripts,

>>other notebooks, etc., and he said the prices Sampas was asking were too

>>high. He did say that Sampas had DONATED A BUNCH OF XEROXES OF KEROUAC

>>LETTERS to the library.

>> Sampas also allowed the NYPL to SHOW THE ON THE ROAD MANUSCRIPT,

>>without selling it to them.

>> The NYPL would of course love to buy the entire Kerouac archive, but

>>the most they could pay for it is one million dollars (for everything,

>>thousands of different pieces). Sampas has declined to sell it to them at

>>that price (apparently not enough).

>>

>From what I understand when I called the NYPL...the OTR manuscript is on

deposit, a common practice for things of that nature. Almost like a Picasso

on loan in a museum from a private owner. The person there says that there

is a numerous amount of material in the library already and even more

coming. Scholars however rarely visit the archive. It is virtually unused!

All this talk about research and the need for access and I've yet to see

more than five scholarly articles published or that have come to light. I

think people need to do more homework other than relying on one side of the

story. No offense to Mr. Nicosia but I think some people are being unfair to

the Kerouac Estate. They remain voiceless on this list but instead...they do

the talking with all these things getting published! What is the problem! If

there are things left out of letters then go to the NYPL or Mogan Center in

Lowell where Gerry says there are "2000 letters" and research it! You may

not be able to quote from the letters but it is no infringement for

paraphrasing! That is scholarship. That is how literary history moves on.

Hell I'll publish it in The Kerouac Quarterly if it is intellectually sound

and verified with documentation. Please though, this endless pondering is

all just so many words. You are all friends here united in the spirit of

Kerouac. Do something to maintain that spirit instead of trying to put it

out. Goodnight. Thanks for reading....Regards to all, Paul of TKQ.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:15:19 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Apollinaire's howl.

amici,

have someone noticed that ALCOOLS written

by Guillaume Apollinaire is an howl,

ZONE

A la fin tu es las de ce monde ancien.

....

ciao a tutti,

vale! *rinaldo a not competent beet *

* TUTTI GIU' PER TERRA! *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:15:17 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: t-shirt mania around the world

amici,

a crowd in milan has stopped to

see the greatest T-shirt in the

world,

a bunch of netsurfers invented

that such a thing,

<http://www.mailshirt.com>

the above site,

ciao a tutti,

vale! *rinaldo a not competent beet *

* TUTTI GIU' PER TERRA! *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:04:44 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat-L T-shirts

In-Reply-To: <970504012107_1221624602@emout02.mail.aol.com> from "Jeffrey

Weinberg" at May 4, 97 01:21:08 am

Jeffrey wrote:

> I will keep the list notified of the progress and will offer to send members

> a copy of the artwork if they want to see it first before buying one.

> When the final cost and shipping date are determined, I'll let the Beat-L

> know.

A simpler method: just scan the image, put it on a web page and

post the URL? If you don't have a web server handy, Jeffrey, send

me the artwork and I'll do it.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:14:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: May Day Blues-May Day Reds

Jo,

Loved your description of the May fest - particularly since it was

completely unknown to me. I grew up in Brooklyn and Connecticut; never heard

of the May Feast or May baskets. Do you know any books that would describe

it? I haven't searched the Web yet to see what I'd find.

By the way, it is Jo and not Joe, right? I saw Gerald Nicosia using

Joe in a post and wondered. I live in Montreal now, not too far from where

Rod Anstee lives, and will be going up to see him / meet him face to face.

The material being posted by you and by Gerald has all found its way into a

new mailbox for me to print and review again at my leisure. Haven't visited

your site yet, but will this week. Thanks again for all the info you've been

providing us.

I'm fifty and as I recall you're about fifteen years older. What got

you into this stuff and the world of the Web? Was it a natural outgrowth of

your earlier life? Apologies if I'm being too prying, but I'm fascinated by

the Web community that can form so quickly around a topic/interest and how

revealing people can be. It has led, for instance to Derek Bealieu and Marie

Countryman arranging to meet here in Montreal with me end of June /

beginning of July. They were aghast when I suggested that mmaybe we should

invite Rod down from Ottawa for one of the days!

Regards, Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:26:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

Dear Gerry:

I think my first conversations with Stanford librarians was in April 1994 and

the contract officially selling the collection was in Aug. 1994, what's the

date of your poster signing conversation?

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:30:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsy's position on "the squabble"

Jerry:

Sorry, I'm not willing to enter this fray except to clarify any factual

matters. I don't believe that I can speak for Allen's thoughts and I don't

know of any writings by him on the subject, although somewhere there may be

letters to friends addressing it.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:31:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Cornix?

In-Reply-To: <97May3.205557-0400_edt.587271-32661+4246@skywalker.microtec.net>

On Sat, 3 May 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:

> What's the Cornix web applet that you refer to?

It takes a body of ascii text and flashes it on the screen, a word at a time

-- think of it as viewing a text via flash cards. The company that makes it

has done lots of work in the area of speed reading, etc. and maintain that

this technique allows for maximum comprehension of a work in minimum time.

I've tried it with several texts (including a Burroughs novel I found

online) and feel that it's worthy of exploration. Because let's face it, it

is usually easier and quicker to read something on paper than on a computer

screen. It doesn't have to be this way -- it _shouldn't_ -- but current

computer interfaces usually try to mimic a virtual piece of paper rather

than do something original (of which the possibilities with computers are

endless), so we end up staring at our screens going, "Is this all there is?"

> >I heard there was absolutely no punctuation in the original OTR. I want to

> >use the Cornix web applet (http://www.halcyon.com/chigh/corndemo.html) on

> >said ASCII file of OTR to view it word-at-a-time on giant screens.

>

> On big screens? Why?

Just for dramatic effect, really. It would certainly pass on my 17" monitor,

but if I connected my computer to, say, a 36" screen, I could sit back on

the couch in my living room and watch the words flash by on the screen

across the room. It would enable a group of people to read the same book at

the same time...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:44:59 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

In-Reply-To: <970504113016_-399843355@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "William

Morgan" at May 4, 97 11:30:17 am

Okay, Gerry -- here's a curve-ball for ya ...

About a year before she died, Jan Kerouac gave permission, through

a mutual acquaintance of ours named Ralph Virgo, for me to run an

excerpt from her unpublished novel "Parrot Fever" in Literary Kicks.

I liked the excerpt a lot, and when I began putting together an

anthology of selected original fiction from the web (which will finally

be on the bookshelves this summer) I thought of including the piece.

Jan had died by this time, so I contacted you as holder of her

copyrights.

We tried to come to terms for using the piece in the book and couldn't

(unfortunately this book is being done at a very slim budget) but you

then insisted I stop running the excerpt in Literary Kicks, and stated

this to me in no uncertain legal terms. Being a mellow, happy-go-lucky

kind of guy who has no wish to ever go to court, I quickly removed the

piece, making no public fuss about it, and that was the end of that

story.

But now when I hear your intense and passionate calls for John Sampas

to immediately yield control of the Jack Kerouac archives by donating it

all to a public library, I wonder if you will in that spirit allow me to

re-install Jan Kerouac's excerpt at my site, which is just as public and

just as non-profit (or more) as any public library? Or is it that you

don't like somebody forcing your hand and have various public and personal

reasons for not wanting to do this, and if so, how are you behaving any

differently than John Sampas?

Please answer this without bringing up either Paul Blake, Stella Sampas,

Adolf Hitler or anybody else who has nothing to do with it!

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 08:45:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bonnie Lee Howard <howardb@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Various and Sundry--Mostly Pleas for Help :-)

Hello Beat-L,

Wow. Been a long time. I first joined this list right after my father, Don

Carpenter, died in July 1995. Back then I was looking for advice on how to

handle his estate, as he named me his literary executor. At that time I

took the advice of a friend and did nothing. Needed to heal first. So now

I'm back, life has calmed down, and I am once again in the position of

asking you knowledgable folks for some help.

What I have are boxes and boxes of papers, letters, chapbooks, posters,

etc. from the Beat era. My father used to arrange poetry readings in S.F.

during the early 60's. So I have stuff, besides my dad's, of Lew Welch,

Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, Michael McClure, Phil Whalen, etc. I think

what needs to happen is to have all this stuff organized and appraised,

and then I can decide what the heck to do with it all. A friend suggested

that I get Andreas Brown, who handled the Ginsberg/Stanford archive deal

(I think) to help me. Any advice you all have would be appreciated. I care

a great deal about where my father's things eventually end up. I would

like writers and students and the public to be able to access them for

research purposes. Right now I am against the idea of separating things

and selling them off piece by piece to collectors. But as the estate's

executor, I have to do the best I can, financially, for the estate and its

beneficiaries. Damn. Suddenly I feel just as lost and confused as I was

two years ago.

While I'm here, I thought I'd throw in a few more comments :-) Re:

Ginsberg and Dylan...my mom recalls being at a party in S.F. with both

Allen and Dylan. I'm thinking this probably wasn't when they first met,

but it had to have been around 1963 or so...Orlovsky had a cast on his

leg, if that helps set the time more accurately.

And one more thing...I am helping a friend do some research on Ginsberg

for a possible biography. Does anyone know how we could get hold of a copy

of the transcript of the HOWL obscenity trial? I did a rather rudimentary

search yesterday, and see that Lawrence Ferlinghetti wrote a book about

it, called _Howl of the Censor_, but it seems to be out-of-print. And is

Judge Clayton Horn, who presided, still alive?

I guess that's enough for one post :-) It's nice to be back and reading

you all again. Is Dan Barth still here? If so...hello!!!

Thanks so very much,

Bonnie Howard

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:59:27 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

aulica vita, splndida miseria.

vale! * the beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:05:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: censorship of letters

I quote from "ANN CHARTERS BEAT SCENE INTERVIEW," in BEAT SCENE 24, spring 1996:

Ann Charters is being interviewed by Dan Barth:

DB: "As far as you know has there been any selling off piecemeal [of

Kerouac's papers, etc.]?"

AC: "There has been some.* I don't know how much because Sampas doesn't

tell me. Why should he? I'm not getting any income from it and I don't,

frankly, have a relationship with John Sampas that is one of a confidante.

I work for hire, his terms. HE GETS THE FINAL SAY ON EVERYTHING. [italics

mine] In other words, if he doesn't want a letter because he thinks it's

unflattering to Phil Wahlen and he doesn't want to embarrass Phil--and there

was one incident where the four dots was because Kerouac was joking about

Phil Whalen's sexual experiences, shall we say; I'm trying to be as bland as

possible here--I think John was completely within his rights. I thought it

was kind of funny, but John said, "Hey, he's an old man, Phil Whalen, and he

doesn't want that stuff circulating."** Someday there will be the Complete

Letters of Jack Kerouac. Everyone will be dead, including me, and you

perhaps, although I hope not, and we'll have all those things. There will

be no four dots."

*One of the reasons Ann Charters knew there was "some" selling is because

she bought some of those items from the Kerouac archive for her own collection.

**I know Phil Whalen quite well; he never asked John Sampas to censor

Kerouac's letters on his behalf. Phil has a great sense of humor about

sexuality and everything else, and he would be the last person to want his

history with the Beats rewritten.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:17:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE CLOSED

> No offense to Mr. Nicosia but I think some people are being unfair to

>the Kerouac Estate. They remain voiceless on this list but instead...they do

>the talking with all these things getting published! What is the problem! If

>there are things left out of letters then go to the NYPL or Mogan Center in

>Lowell where Gerry says there are "2000 letters" and research it! You may

>not be able to quote from the letters but it is no infringement for

>paraphrasing!

To Paul Maher: indeed there are 2,000 Kerouac letters (in xerox) in

the MEMORY BABE collection at U Mass, Lowell, Special Collections (the Mogan

Center) plus 300 taped interviews with people who knew Kerouac,

transcriptions of those interviews, letters to me, etc. (although as you

know 60 of the letters to me have disappeared).

The problem is, my archive has been closed to the public. This

happened about two years ago, after John Sampas went to speak with the

librarian, to complain that the public should not have access to this

material without his permission. I am currently working on a breach of

contract suit against the university, because I was assured during

negotiations that this material would all be made freely available to the

public for study.

In the meantime, the 300 tapes (on cheap cassettes) have never even

been duplicated by the university, and are now seriously deteriorating. If

this deterioration is allowed to continue, we will lose precious primary

source material, interviews with over 100 people who are now dead (Ted

Berrigan, John Clellan Holmes, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert Duncan, Bob Kaufman,

Kerouac's three wives, et al.) which can never be gathered again.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:20:27 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: hooooo! I'M A BEET

'005Y89U+531K=F2N CA NZ

+L=F2M=E0E2FK+VP

KV qmn

onhapvihrwq gty72+=F956 81682 B(q2n=F2k2qr

i04242 =20

+friends,

what chauvinism?

are'u usofam relatad

but i'm conviced

A BEET IS COSMOPOLITAN

ARE U SAFE!

vale! Rinaldo.-

aaaaaaaahtrgsuysuhsajcqBNHIP

HBVRPWQ

NHVGVPQ

bp'=F9=E8

lllllllllllllllg5ki+=E8p06=EC4'0u=EC97uy2

=EC9q+kirw vgkbwrghp

<

CSACKMNVDNVWMLKDVOI0

5'058'585966 6 l,mlvkdavnksvHUVF++8942U4939U3198'4=F9=EC

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:21:33 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE CLOSED

if u rrelate jk only in usa the thing is less...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:22:08 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censorship of letters

allen ginsgebrg was censored! not only jk

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:22:47 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

the history comes when yhe thing are awright...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:23:31 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Cornix?

if the poetry comes to hardwired this is

awright!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:25:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censorship of letters

what's up only ag is censored!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:26:14 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

in italy what's happen, sorry how u are speakin' in NYC

frank zappa from the heaven...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:28:23 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

jk is UNIVERSAL POETRY WHAT'S ARE U SPEAKING ATTILA?

OFF BROADWAY SCENE?

* THE BEET *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:29:21 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Estate Research

JK IS AN UNIVERAL GUY WHAT'S ARE U SPEAKING?

* TUTTI GIU' PER TERRA *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:29:57 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: virtual Fillmore

PAmela who is?

the beet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:30:43 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

only AG who's censored guys!

the beet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:31:03 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: t-shirts

great!!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:41:16 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: t-shirts

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> great!!

The shirt site is great, Rinaldo. Is the model a friend of yours?

beeten in California--or I guess elf abuse would be to beet your meet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:02:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE CLOSED

>If one were to contact the estate then...one would have access with

permission. I would assume you would have to have a legitimate reason to

want to go in there. Research is one legitimate reason. Just wanting to see

the archives is not. If I'm not mistaken...most archives are like that. I

know that's the way with the Hemingway archives in Boston or the Whittier

archives in Haverhill, Massachusetts or the Faulkner collection. What would

make Kerouac any different?

Kerouac's letteres belong to the estate so naturally...you would need the

estate's permission to see them. The tapes I assume would be a different

matter altogether. There are many living voices on those tapes. The Estate

does not own those...they do however have a say about the letters. Sad

enough but true nonetheless. I can't see anything wrong with that set up.

That is standard protocol with every major collection holding primary

resources.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:19:43 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: T-SHIRT AD (CALL BENETTON A fiend of mine)

argues the beet (be[a]t remember the mcarthy interview):

italian style by fiorucci (not ad in this hit) is a lot

greet than everything in the world u know, now i suppose

the Beat-L goto the T-shirt to Fiorucci, i presume, like

Ferlinghetti go in florence for his Light bookstore, i

as a venetian guy disappointed!...

a T-shirt creates in USA is off!! really friends tell me!

* rinaldo *

* the beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:21:15 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE CLOSED

jk write his works w/out puntactiuon what's u are following?

the street is yr place.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:20:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: how to resubscribe

excuse this interruption, i sure know how annoying it can be to

longstanding beat-list members.

i've been away, and i need the email address for the server so i can get

back onto the Beat-l.

thanks,

Eric

rhs4@crystal.palace.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:45:29 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Beat-L T-shirts

At 07.04 04/05/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Jeffrey wrote:

>> I will keep the list notified of the progress and will offer to send members

>> a copy of the artwork if they want to see it first before buying one.

>> When the final cost and shipping date are determined, I'll let the Beat-L

>> know.

>

>A simpler method: just scan the image, put it on a web page and

>post the URL? If you don't have a web server handy, Jeffrey, send

>me the artwork and I'll do it.

>

>------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------

>

>>From CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Sun May 4 16:15:06 1997

>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by gpnet.it with esmtp using sendmail

> (Smail3.2.0.90 #1) id m0wO24A-000rJOC; Sun, 4 May 1997 16:15:06 +0200 (MET

DST)

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with SMTP id <2.CA1D6D22@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sun, 4 May 1997 16:15:04 +0100

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> NJE id 0386 for BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU; Sun, 4 May 1997 10:14:17

-0400

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>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:14:40 -0400

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

>Subject: Re: May Day Blues-May Day Reds

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>

>Jo,

>

> Loved your description of the May fest - particularly since it was

>completely unknown to me. I grew up in Brooklyn and Connecticut; never heard

>of the May Feast or May baskets. Do you know any books that would describe

>it? I haven't searched the Web yet to see what I'd find.

>

> By the way, it is Jo and not Joe, right? I saw Gerald Nicosia using

>Joe in a post and wondered. I live in Montreal now, not too far from where

>Rod Anstee lives, and will be going up to see him / meet him face to face.

>The material being posted by you and by Gerald has all found its way into a

>new mailbox for me to print and review again at my leisure. Haven't visited

>your site yet, but will this week. Thanks again for all the info you've been

>providing us.

>

> I'm fifty and as I recall you're about fifteen years older. What got

>you into this stuff and the world of the Web? Was it a natural outgrowth of

>your earlier life? Apologies if I'm being too prying, but I'm fascinated by

>the Web community that can form so quickly around a topic/interest and how

>revealing people can be. It has led, for instance to Derek Bealieu and Marie

>Countryman arranging to meet here in Montreal with me end of June /

>beginning of July. They were aghast when I suggested that mmaybe we should

>invite Rod down from Ottawa for one of the days!

>

> Regards, Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

amici,

a crowd in milan has stopped to

see the greatest T-shirt in the

world,

a bunch of netsurfers invented

that such a thing,

<http://www.mailshirt.com>

the above site,

ciao a tutti,

vale! *rinaldo a not competent beet *

* TUTTI GIU' PER TERRA! *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:46:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's questions, final chapter

jk is gone ag is gone

what'$ u are told ?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:48:42 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

only AG was censored what's are u serching for?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:50:27 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censorship of letters

only allen ginsberg was

censopred what mess are u

talk 'bout?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:51:44 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

only allen ginsberg was the p'oet

censored not too bad if jk not

keep tjhe same thing!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:53:11 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters article on Estate Battle

the estate (in italiano estate = summer english)

is a matter of attorney nor for beet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:54:16 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Dylan-Plymell

dylan-dos-dylan-thomas-who're u pamela? holmes asks.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:56:06 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

i was jaled with mexico city blues in my

poket, are u mad to exibit an suit 'bout

this =F9matter

a beet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:56:54 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

only

AG

was

censored

tutti giu' per terra!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:58:35 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Dylan-Plymell

dylan-u are, in my opinion out of the mind of the universe

the beeeet

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:59:40 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: New Q's for Nicosia

keep

yr

head

in

yr

hands

* the beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:01:05 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

attila devasted venice italy in earlier times,

so i for my ancestor i beg his pardon..

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:02:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

what's are do u gouing?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:02:58 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

there's a world that is ignoring that stuff but

loves jk

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:03:57 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Ginsy's position on "the squabble"

paranoia is the train's not in arrive

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:04:34 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

don't comin'further

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:04:59 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's questions, final chapter

legacy what's

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:58:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: censorship of letters

Rinaldo, I have so enjoyed most of your postings.

I am confused by this latest flurry of postings, I believe many of the

beats were censored in a variety of ways, and the thread title you were

responding to was describing a specific example of one type of

censorship.

I only found a booby type girl with half of a tee shirt on when i

visited the tee shirt site, Is that kind of tee shirt what is popular

in europe now? love

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:05:37 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Jake Barnes is beat (was "More on dope")

stop that's attorney trhread please

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:07:14 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: New Q's for Nicosia

there is an island in mediterranea sea?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:07:50 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: more on dope

please, have a lot of funny in yr replies

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:08:20 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: New Q's for Nicosia

& ciprus is near ?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:09:25 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's questions, final chapter

attila destroyed venice

'cuz of i'm a bit disappointing

* the beet *

* sant erasmo island *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:11:43 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

another lit influence , it's springtime , guys

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:05:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: (no subject)high spirits

rinaldo. ok with me if you stop your one liners and delete the threads

you don't want to read. Is this called flooding? My daughter says it is

flooding, she is eleven, says that this is a way of tying up the list so

the messages allowed per day are used up. i being a facimile old lady

says it is a guy in an afternoon of high spirits who is just plain bored

with jk estate matters

p

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:12:07 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: For Charles Plymell

funny pamela

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:12:55 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Public Domain

At 17.07 02/05/97 -0700, you wrote:

>This means that these books that are in the public domain can be posted on

>the internet.

>

>It is too bad that Paul Blake cannot get royalties for them, but as they

>are in the public domain, someone ought to get busy and get them up.

>

>How about a beat-l ftp site?

>

>What books are in the public domain?

>

yes the say the bonnot band of anarchist

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:13:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: More on dope

At 19.41 02/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Blowing in the wind or pissing in the wind?

>C. Plymell

>

>

have a break

* the beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:15:12 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - Uncut

if OTR was a am lit why it's cut?

*the beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:19:18 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: how to resubscribe

At 16.20 04/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>excuse this interruption, i sure know how annoying it can be to

>longstanding beat-list members.

>

>i've been away, and i need the email address for the server so i can get

>back onto the Beat-l.

>

>thanks,

>Eric

>rhs4@crystal.palace.net

>

LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

SUBscribe BEAT-L Robert H. Sapp

tutti giu' per terra!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:19:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

At 08:44 AM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Okay, Gerry -- here's a curve-ball for ya ...

>

>About a year before she died, Jan Kerouac gave permission, through

>a mutual acquaintance of ours named Ralph Virgo, for me to run an

>excerpt from her unpublished novel "Parrot Fever" in Literary Kicks.

>I liked the excerpt a lot, and when I began putting together an

>anthology of selected original fiction from the web (which will finally

>be on the bookshelves this summer) I thought of including the piece.

>Jan had died by this time, so I contacted you as holder of her

>copyrights.

>

>We tried to come to terms for using the piece in the book and couldn't

>(unfortunately this book is being done at a very slim budget) but you

>then insisted I stop running the excerpt in Literary Kicks, and stated

>this to me in no uncertain legal terms. Being a mellow, happy-go-lucky

>kind of guy who has no wish to ever go to court, I quickly removed the

>piece, making no public fuss about it, and that was the end of that

>story.

>

>But now when I hear your intense and passionate calls for John Sampas

>to immediately yield control of the Jack Kerouac archives by donating it

>all to a public library, I wonder if you will in that spirit allow me to

>re-install Jan Kerouac's excerpt at my site, which is just as public and

>just as non-profit (or more) as any public library? Or is it that you

>don't like somebody forcing your hand and have various public and personal

>reasons for not wanting to do this, and if so, how are you behaving any

>differently than John Sampas?

>

>Please answer this without bringing up either Paul Blake, Stella Sampas,

>Adolf Hitler or anybody else who has nothing to do with it!

>

>------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

Dear Levi, May 4, 1997

For days I've been pinned down in a crossfire between Joe Chaput and

Rod Anstee, and now I feel I'm taking fire from you too. How bout someone

give me a chance to catch my breath? Or is this all-out guerrilla warfare?

OK, I'm sure I explained to you, that my problem from the start as

Jan's literary executor has been that her heir, exhusband John Lash, has

been seeking desperately for some grounds to dismiss me (so he can complete

his deal with John Sampas). I told you to take the never-published PARROT

FEVER from your web site because, potentially, John Lash could go before the

Albuquerque court and say: "Look, Nicosia is GIVING AWAY OUR [his and Jan's

half-brother's] PROPERTY. He has now diminished the earning power of PARROT

FEVER by letting this guy Asher print it for nothing."

That's far-fetched, I know, but Lash has already said things even

more far-fetched than that to the Albuquerque court.

Of course I want to make Jan's work available. She wanted me to put

her entire archive in the Bancroft library for scholars to look at, but Lash

has frustrated me there too by locking up all her stuff in his lawyer's

vault. Recently the court even ORDERED LASH TO SEND ME JAN'S PAPERS, but he

still hasn't complied.

So let's make a trade-off here. Until the Appellate Court in Santa

Fe makes a final ruling on the extent of my powers, I'm not going to give

Mr. Lash any ammunition concerning how careless I am with his property.

What I can do is give you permission to print an equal amount of Jan's work

(equal no. of words) as was in the PARROT FEVER excerpt, from either of her

out-of-print books BABY DRIVER or TRAINSONG. You tell me what excerpt you

want, what page to what page, and I'll fax you a letter of permission.

Since those books were published and had their run years ago,

there's less grounds for Mr. Lash to say I "lost money for him" than if I

gave away parts of a new Jan Kerouac novel.

I think I explained to you that, though a literary executor can

himself give permission, he/she does not have an absolute power; and all my

decisions are subject to review by the court, especially if Mr. Lash calls

for that review.

John Sampas is not under the same tight rein since he is answerable

only to his family.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:28:30 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: censorship of letters

patricia argues:

>Rinaldo, I have so enjoyed most of your postings.

>I am confused by this latest flurry of postings, I believe many of the

>beats were censored in a variety of ways, and the thread title you were

>responding to was describing a specific example of one type of

>censorship.

>I only found a booby type girl with half of a tee shirt on when i

>visited the tee shirt site, Is that kind of tee shirt what is popular

>in europe now? love

>patricia

>

no mention of T-shirt (that's fiorucci it's a must, agree with me)

but i'm concerned 'bout the list is usa centric, i loved ,really,

USofA but if i heard that jk is submitt in lawsuit by its writings

i'm disapponting like Omero or shakespeare was limited in his

emoticons by the state of a state

* anarchist &beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:31:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE CLOSED

At 03:02 PM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>If one were to contact the estate then...one would have access with

>permission. I would assume you would have to have a legitimate reason to

>want to go in there... they do however have a say about the letters. Sad

>enough but true nonetheless. I can't see anything wrong with that set up.

>That is standard protocol with every major collection holding primary

>resources.

>

Dear Paul: May 4, 1997

No, it's not "standard protocol." Mr. Sampas does not in fact have

the legal power to keep you from reading anything by Jack Kerouac.

Otherwise I could not have done the research I did. You (as I did) can walk

into Bancroft Library, the U. of Texas Humanities Research Center, UC Davis,

Reed College, or any number of other major libraries in this country that

have Kerouac letters on file, and you can read them and take notes on them

(as I did) without the Sampas family's permission.

Ferlinghetti's archive in Berkeley (Bancroft) contains letters,

writings, tapes, etc. from several thousand different people, and you don't

need permission from a single one of them to use the archive for scholarly

purposes. You only need Ferlinghetti's permission.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:32:22 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: (no subject)high spirits

patrica (i love u):

>rinaldo. ok with me if you stop your one liners and delete the threads

>you don't want to read. Is this called flooding? My daughter says it is

>flooding, she is eleven, says that this is a way of tying up the list so

>the messages allowed per day are used up. i being a facimile old lady

>says it is a guy in an afternoon of high spirits who is just plain bored

>with jk estate matters

>p

>

my nephwew (a girl 17 old) i interested 'bout jk on the road

today ask me form the book, & if the uncle is the better friend

i promised to give she, but what's she came next month in internet

connection, or/and in b-list what's up the matter jk lawsuits?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:41:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: censored Kerouac letters

In a message dated 97-05-03 17:58:20 EDT, you write:

<< He dictated to Ann Charters what Kerouac letters could be published, and

> which ones couldn't, and which parts had to be censored.

>>

Supposedly, Ann Charters was hired by John Sampas to edit the letters book.

Ann has mentioned in public forums in response to questions about this, that

she was working for Sampas at the time, hence the fact that she did what was

requested while still trying to maintain her scholarly professionalism. She

also mentioned that she is confident that years from now, when all this

brouhaha dies down, that she envisions somebody coming out with a complete

letters book.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:53:18 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - Uncut

not too lawsuit 'bout jk take a break smell the java...

*the beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:54:07 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - Uncut

not a lawsuit jk smell the coffe & relax

*the beet from venice,italy*

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:06:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

jk is not censored as ag

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:07:05 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Jake Barnes is beat (was "More on dope")

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:15:05 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Your current flood

James:

>Return-Path: <stauffer@pacbell.net>

>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 15:07:08 -0700

>From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

>Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

>To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>

>Subject: Your current flood

>

>Rinaldo.

>

>I enjoy your posts. They are funny.

>

>However. The Beat-L only acceptsl 50 messages a day. Let someone else

>talk. I'm sick of the Kerouac estate thing too, but it is important to

>other people. 40 or so posts a day should be plenty. Go smoke a

>joint. Take a break. Look at the wonderful tits on the girl on the

>t-shirt page. Everytime I turn on the computer there are another 15

>messages from you.

>

>James

>

>

i smell java but i can't stop my mouse sorry

* the beeet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:17:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>

Subject: More than enough

How many Rinaldo Rasas does it take to dangle on the end of a

thread? Has he cloned himself?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:02:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

rinaldo

my god go outside and breath some fresh air

----------

: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

: Date: Sunday, May 04, 1997 5:06 PM

:

: jk is not censored as ag

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:30:12 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

jk was not censored

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:30:44 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: More on dope

>Isn't it pretty to think so!

>

u are joking?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:32:20 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Attila's questions con'd -- Kerouac Estate Fight

gottcha!! with this stuff of jk estate please, the image

of jk is in the sky,

*the beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:33:14 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

jk was a mith wat's up to censored Virgilius?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:34:31 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On The Road - UnCut

the server is the minus what are u doing?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:36:09 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: On The Road - UnCut

u lost in the fog the mind why jk is cutted

ag more cutted & considered a clown...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:33:51 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: On the Road - UnCut

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> jk was not censored

Rinaldo and i have been writing back and forth about this and many other

beautiful subjects for about an hour now.

i think that Rinaldo may be correct in that "censorship" may not be the

proper word to use for whatever has occurred with regards to the letters

now. i recognize that there are many different meanings, connotations

and what-not for anything such as "censorship", but i think that perhaps

there is a better word for whatever it is that people are mentioning

concerning JK's writings. there is at least some level of difference in

the kinds of restrictions involved in the cases of AG and JK's writings.

i have racked my poor Kansas brain and attempted to consult the great

vortex for a better word to describe the current questions relating to

JK's writings than censorship. the vortex was closed unfortunately --

for repairs I suppose -- and i haven't come up with the proper word yet,

but i do believe that there is one out there somewhere that better

describes the subject and yet distinguishes from the censorship of

Ginsberg as Rinaldo has expressed.

sincerely,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:39:58 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Anstee, Nicosia, & Kerouac Estate Fight

oh, an attorney is enough

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:43:18 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Why is there no hippie literature

no more 50 messages?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:44:45 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: apologies

as gif image now i'm considering to limit my writing...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:11:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Rinaldo!

Rinaldo!!!

What the heck you been smokin' got you so fired up?

25 e-mails all from Rinaldo in one day saying "stop the lawsuits, make love

not war" etc?

Rinaldo, there's been a lawsuit, a couple really, here in the US that's

gotten a lot of attention in the press and now is being

discussed/argued/examined on the Beat-L. Don't expect it to go away. Delete

the posts, read them to learn what you can, comment if it makes sense, but

Jeez-Louise (or Jean Louis) stop the one-liners!

Please!

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:15:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Your explosion of e-mail!

Comments: cc: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

rinaldo,

What's with this explosion of e-mail? I'm trying to figure out if

you're just annoyed about all the talk about the estate questions, or if

you've found a neat program that allows you to pump out tons of one-line

replies to posts from the Beat list. Give us a little break and slow down

the pace.

We need more poetry and commentary and less heat!

Is Sant Erasmos Island where you live in Venice?

Thanks Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:56:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

--PART.BOUNDARY.0.1229.emout05.mail.aol.com.862790182

Content-ID: <0_1229_862790182@emout05.mail.aol.com.5505>

Content-type: text/plain

I have attached a response to Ron Anstee's post to me: I figured ANYONE who

was gonna casually slip in a claim to have written a better book than DOCTOR

SAX was just plain asking for it! I liked your elegant reply, mind you, about

learning self-promotion from the best -- as I told JHW a while back, I've

grown to enjoy your clear-eyed, cut-through-the surface-noise, and

watch-the-details postings.

Yes, I have LAST OF THE MOCCASINS here, red cover, $3 on the back...I haven't

read LAST since about 1975. (SAX I re-read pretty regularly.) So let me go

read it again. If we're to lock horns, which I don't think is necessary, but

maybe they're expecting it, YOU have to go re-read DOCTOR SAX, fair?

Charles Plymell

PS: If the download doesn't work, please let us know.

--PART.BOUNDARY.0.1229.emout05.mail.aol.com.862790182

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DR. SAX vs LAST OF THE MOCCASINS

=0D

The Kerouac estate battle is of interest to me, and I've also been intere=

sted in Kerouac

recently. I haven't wanted to use the Beat-L so that there was plenty of =

time for the

important, but typical battle of wills. Soon it will play out, and for pu=

rely selfish reasons,

I can't wait to see who will emerge as the Johnsons, or who will emerge a=

s the Shits. (To

apply the Burroughs aphorism gained from his attentive ear for truths spo=

ken by a black

drag queen long ago.)

=0D

A while back, Ron Anstee challenged me to a friendly bout to defend my cl=

aim (actually

a claim from a review written by Hugh Fox.) I'm ready to step in the ring=

now. (Funny

how those sports metaphors are useful.) He sent me an interesting post su=

mmarizing his

feelings about Kerouac's work and said he would read my City Lights editi=

on of Last of

the Moccasins, if I'd read Dr. Sax. With the compliments of Jeff, I've be=

en sent D.S. and

have been reading it and thinking about it with a great deal of pleasure.=

=0D

The C.L. edition was written in one swoop and sent to City Lights. Thoug=

h I expected

editorial work, it was published as was, with many errors. The book then =

was published

by Europa Verlag in Austria and was reprinted in this country by Mother R=

oad. One

review from Mitteilungsblatt Bibliotheken Germany (equivalent of Library =

Journal) said

"Plymell is a lineal successor to Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg and he =

proffers that

the literature of the Beat Generation hasn't lost anything of its freshne=

ss and unfailing

honesty to talk about personal experience and self assessment." And from =

England,

Andrew Darlington wrote in Ludd's Mill that LOM..."was circulating among =

the

Yorkshire Poets, a single copy changing hands, working its way through th=

e City Lights

sub culture and becoming the centre of a cult in its own right." =

=0D

The only schooling I had in Kerouac was what Neal read me about himself, =

mainly in

OTR and Allen reading Mexico City Blues to me at Gough St. S. F. 1963. Th=

ough we

never discussed much poetry, this was one time a literary learning experi=

ence was real,

a changing of the guard, so to speak.

=0D

I will have to quote some reviews that establish and compare my writing t=

o Kerouac

because many people are unfamiliar with my work which have been mostly se=

minal for

one reason for another. Also I'm in a peculiar position of defending my r=

eviewers. For

that reason, I would like to quote some reviewers who talk about the styl=

es and make

comparisons in the first place. Rod will say that is self advertising, I'=

ll quote Magritte:

Ceci n'est pas une pipe. I just hope when the bout is over Rod won't do t=

he "I knew Jack

K., and I worked with Jack K., and you're no J.K. routine." I am clearly =

the underdog

here. This was my first and only published prose book, etc. and I plan to=

say where I felt

on the mat and where K gave it everything he had: his own word hoard barr=

age, and

great literary style hoards. Remember, I was up against a seasoned pro wi=

th a few books

under his belt. And I may not even win this match. And my literary estate=

is valued at

only $91. So don't bet too much. It has been an inspiring lesson. Some on=

the list were

asking about hippy literature. My book is not about hippies though it inc=

luded some

hippy scenes. Even the connotation of the word has rendered a definition =

synonymous

with "Trend". I was at least in the "hispter" era too.

=0D

Literature didn't begin and end with the Beat Generation. Some of you kn=

ow Charles

Potts of Tsunami, Inc. who publishes The Temple. In the last issue there =

was a poem by

Michael Finely, which, in my opinion would put much of the poetry of the =

beat

generation to shame. Anyway, Potts wrote in a review about LOM when it fi=

rst came out

that: "Moccasins for short is better written than all of Kerouac except f=

or Desolation

Angels." Boy, that's enough to make your blood boil! I have other quotes =

from reviews

about LOM that put me in the beat camp.

=0D

There are only about three sections of Dr. Sax that I found uneven. I c=

hecked out the

K Portable Reader from the library. When I read the selections from Dr. S=

ax in that, I

thought this was going to be a cakewalk. I felt I had it all over him. Th=

en Jeff's copy

arrived with some funny notations from him. I'm glad I didn't have to jud=

ge the book by

the excerpts in K Portable Reader. The first chapters gave me a the feeli=

ng that K was

sparring, not doing much; there was a lot of play on language, some good =

nonsense

writing. So I had a good childhood memory ear too. He was setting a tone =

of Burlesque,

which would gradually evolve to metaphysical wit, the allegory. =

=0D

He did have a few remarkable lines, which if pastiched, could easily be a=

s great

symbolism/surrealism as Rimbaud/H. Crane. Yet I felt he overreached with =

some of the

word/phrase inventions. He was not effective: sometimes, I thought, class=

ic bathos.

=0D

I thought I could take this sucker now! But a good local color story seem=

ed to be

developing by Chapter 25 that I felt kinship with. I thought I was proven=

even with him.

Though I quite frankly didn't understand the frame movie scenes near the =

beginning of

the book, the frame story was very effective and very sophisticated, sign=

ified by K's own

linguistic loop disclaimer: "Dr. Sax was no sophisticated writer." Now K =

is flexing his

literary muscle. He had that round. By pg. 77 he was building on juvenile=

absurdity into

the honest youthful expression of reality and calling it by name. I can f=

eel my youth of

the 50's ending in his Shakespearean: "How rotten the walls of life do ge=

t how collapsed

the tendon beam..."

=0D

I'll digress here to say that his sense of regionalism is very predominan=

t. His description

of New England weather/mood change was brilliant. I identified with this=

=2E In my book,

there is regionalism where the weather plays a part "anthropomorphically =

expanding a

place into the dimensions of a mythical super-person".

=0D

He began to set a pace, and after "feeling out his approach" he was in th=

e full swing of

writing by the time he went past Jeff's father's business, Alexander's (p=

g. 85). After that

there were too many details. the writing became almost pedestrian. I out=

guessed, even

if it was speculative. Charles Dawe in the San Francisco Fault wrote "But=

Plymell writes

a more speculative--or 'memoir' if you like---than On The Road. " =

=0D

The dialogue picks up a little by pg. 193 and then K starts throwing eve=

rything he's got

into great bold abstract expressionist strokes. He was a hipster, not a h=

ippie. I've never

seen the slang term "hincty" in print, though it was used in the subcultu=

re of the 50's. He

reaches into his literary background and came up with name/context of all=

of classic

literature. His Baroque Benzedrine monsters were bopping in the linguisti=

c sub lingo of

the 50's psycho-imagistic creations like the simile "...head down, like a=

hip tap dancer

pulling his bops away,..."

=0D

I began to realize what I was up against. From then on he pulled out all =

stops:

Surrealism, Symbolism, Mysticism, Goethe, Faust, Kafka, you name it; Best=

iary,

Allegory, Naturalism; Kerouac swung away. In conclusion, the quote from H=

ugh Fox,

writing in MOTA started this whole thing. "Moccasins becomes a case-book/=

textbook,

model of contemporary style that Americanizes Joyce, Genet, Sarraute, Rob=

be-Grillet and

even stylistically 'explicates' the whole dizzying language-stance of Nak=

ed Lunch

Burroughs. The only 'beat' novels that even approach the stylistic statu=

re of The Last of

the Moccasins are, in fact, Naked Lunch and (to a much lesser degree) Ker=

ouac's Doctor

Sax. You find a little bit of this in Kerouac, Miller, Burroughs, but ne=

ver anywhere any

better--the use of bringing the whole English word-hoard to bear in one m=

ultiple-associated semantic barrage, anthropomorphically expanding a plac=

e into the dimensions

of mystical super-person." =

=0D

I think that is an excellent description of Dr. Sax too, but I thank you =

Hugh for putting

me in the Ring and hope that I can live up to your laudations. This was a=

very enjoyable

read for me. Traditionally, the east has enjoyed more literary activity .=

My book is west

of the Mississippi. It is written in new journalism; it is autobiographic=

al. I'm surprised

by all the good reviews of it. Just as someone recently remarked that it'=

s a kind of honor

to not have books available. It seems my books are reviewed as much as re=

ad. I'm glad

to have the opportunity to read and "review" Dr. Sax, and my comments are=

extemporaneous as a the keyboard. This is for the practice of writing; it=

hasn't nested;

It is not formal, rather conversational.

=0D

I am totally comfortable and delighted at what Colin Cooper said in the l=

atest Beat

Scene about the new edition: "At last this Beat gem is back in print. Ori=

ginally released

by City Lights Press in San Francisco, this underground American classic =

has languished

in unwarranted obscurity....Here are the individuals of the so called Bea=

t Generation and

many more (Jack Black. Thomas Kromer) decode it all."

=0D

I am pleased with all the reviews. My only claim was to be a "Hobohemian"=

writer, a

word that I invented. Dr. Sax is a great book by a great writer.

Charles Plymell=

--PART.BOUNDARY.0.1229.emout05.mail.aol.com.862790182--

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:21:26 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

My only claim was to be a "Hobohemian" writer, a

> word that I invented. Dr. Sax is a great book by a great writer.

> Charles Plymell

this was truly an enjoyable read...looking forward to the rest of the

Bout and to future ones like:

In the blue corner .... Dr. Sax AND

in the green corner .... Dr. Benway ......

dbr

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:59:01 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

Charles,

Very nice first round. Your jab is working, you're using the ring

well. Take plenty of fluids and keep it up. And remember about not

hooking with a hooker, or whatever. Makes me want to run straight to

the bookstore (better than going stoned to the bookstore cuz I never get

out) and grab both books. That's the best part.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:39:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: apologies

In-Reply-To: <m0wOA1N-000rMiC@gpnet.it>

On Mon, 5 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

What brand of wine are you drinkin'? Would like to try it myself...

------------------

Alex Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:02:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject: Please STOP Rinaldo

Comments: cc: rinaldo@gpnet.it

If you had a lot to say, no problem. But these useless one liners are

really getting tiresom. Some people on the list have to pay for their

service providers by the minute. Reading 50 posts that make no sense is

just plain unfair.

I vote for a gag-order...

-Bill

[ deadbeat@buffnet.net - http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the

subject."

-- Winston Churchill

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:45:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: What kind of wine....

Alex - If rinaldo replies privately will you please let me and the others

know...this could be a chance for a good little export business on the side

for rinaldo.

Antoine

***************************

>On Mon, 5 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

>What brand of wine are you drinkin'? Would like to try it myself...

>

>------------------

>Alex Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State University

>kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

>http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

>

>

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:54:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Your current flood

rinaldo..........sei pazzo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(y, io ti scrivo di Zanzotto y Fellini, my dad JUST started translating for

me, and i will get back to you, mi dispiace, io sono molto tardo)

arrivederla, ginevra (ginny)

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:13:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cornix?

Cornix. That sounds interesting. I'll try it. I'll have to get a larger

screen.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:57:42 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: After the Flood - reflections on Venetian brother

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------4778642C707F

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received this when i woke this morning. Venice and Salina are not in

the same time zones but definitely in the same Astral plane. hope all

the Beat-Lers are caught up and that there was no significant damage

from the flood from the Venetian computer. I was quite concerned at

first but as the backchannel continued (i checked nearly 2 hours of

exchange) i found that everything was alright and fine and probably a

minute misunderstanding compared to some that have been zooming across

the list in recent days.

david rhaesa

p.s. rasa and rhaesa are the same if the alphabet excludes "h's" and

"e's" so i've determined "scientifically" that rinaldo and i are distant

cousins..... :)

--------------4778642C707F

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Message-ID: <336DA60F.31FA@midusa.net>

Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 04:19:12 -0500

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

References: <m0wOGTu-000rEqC@gpnet.it>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> david,

> in advance i thanx sincerely u & al the beats,

> u 'cuz of the spotaneous writing lastnight a la jack kerouac

> we celebrated a piece of lit, i presume...

> &thanx to the beats for the BIG patient carried

> for the email floooooooooood

>

> i send via snail mail a postcard for u

>

> good morn' & good week, & i hop're happy!

> ciao da Rinaldo.

>

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Rinaldo RASA, v.MORLAITER 2, 30173 VENICE-Mestre, ITALY

>

> voice: +39 (041) 5317058

> email: rasa@gpnet.it

> email: rinaldo@gpnet.it

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

> -------------------------------------------------------

I enjoyed the typing races across the Atlantic ocean. I was concerned

about you primarily at first. Then i just enjoyed it more and more as

you began to tell me more and more things about the Centre of the

Universe and all that.

It certainly was spontaneous writing. I hope that the flood is easily

forgiven by everyone. I'm certain many were concerned.

I still find it mysterious that our names are similar Rasa-Rhaesa.

Your note on my computer when I woke up is certainly going to help me

with having a happy day. I'll look forward to the picture postcard.

Take Care Venetian friend,

david rhaesa

--------------4778642C707F--

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:07:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

In-Reply-To: <199705042119.OAA26747@denmark.it.earthlink.net> from "Gerald

Nicosia" at May 4, 97 02:19:34 pm

Gerry wrote:

> OK, I'm sure I explained to you, that my problem from the start as

> Jan's literary executor has been that her heir, exhusband John Lash, has

> been seeking desperately for some grounds to dismiss me (so he can complete

> his deal with John Sampas). I told you to take the never-published PARROT

> FEVER from your web site because, potentially, John Lash could go before the

> Albuquerque court and say: "Look, Nicosia is GIVING AWAY OUR [his and Jan's

> half-brother's] PROPERTY. He has now diminished the earning power of PARROT

> FEVER by letting this guy Asher print it for nothing."

Okay, I understand and accept this (although you didn't explain this

before). I never questioned your right, as Jan's literary executor,

to call the shots as you see them, and I am more sympathetic as well,

now that you've explained why you'd asked me to stop running this piece.

I really only brought this up because I think John Sampas, as Jack Kerouac's

literary executor, also has the right to call the shots as he sees

them, and I think he must have his own private reasons, just as you

have yours in this "Parrot Fever" situation, for taking the actions that

you have objected to.

> So let's make a trade-off here. Until the Appellate Court in Santa

> Fe makes a final ruling on the extent of my powers, I'm not going to give

> Mr. Lash any ammunition concerning how careless I am with his property.

> What I can do is give you permission to print an equal amount of Jan's work

> (equal no. of words) as was in the PARROT FEVER excerpt, from either of her

> out-of-print books BABY DRIVER or TRAINSONG. You tell me what excerpt you

> want, what page to what page, and I'll fax you a letter of permission.

Thanks for this offer -- but there really is something special I liked

about publishing "previously unpublished works." So how about this,

instead -- if you ever reach a point in your dispute with Lash where

you can safely give me permission to run the Parrot Fever excerpt

again, let me know, and till then I'll just keep it on file.

Now ... let's end this here before we get another 90 messages

from Italy ...

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:56:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Gerry ????????

Gerry, you really didn't respond to this post.

>>Gerry, I just looked at an uncorrected proof of "Some of the Dharma" and on

>one of the first pages it states that the manuscript/notebooks (maybe 8 of

>them can't remember how many)for "Some of the Dharma" were placed in the

>Berg collection of the New York Public Library in 1993 by John Sampas. What

>do you have to say about that? If it's not true why would it be in the book?

>

>By the way Gerry the folks at Lowell Celebrates Kerouac all work very hard

>to promote Kerouac and you are doing a terrible disservice when you go and

>try to put us down because in your mind we are all part of the Sampas

>conspiracy theory. I can assure you that many of the decent folks that work

>hard to put this festival on every year don't know or care about your

>squabbles with the Sampas family. Ed Sanders the main feature at the

>festival last year did do a nice little tribute to Jan Kerouac at the

>festival. You know what, his hotel bill was paid isn't that amazing? I'm not

>sure but the probable reason you or Jan haven't been asked to speak is

>because it's not "Lowell Celebrates Lawsuits" it's "Lowell Celebrates

>Kerouac" and I'm quite sure that is what your agenda would be. It seems to

>be your only one lately. We accept donations from anyone willing to give and

>I haven't heard of any checks coming in from you ever. Maybe you would like

>it better if no one donated anything and we didn't promote Kerouac at all in

>Lowell. It seems like that is what you want. Keep your beef with John

>private and don't try to drag down people that truly want to do some good

>and promote Kerouac. Phil Chaput

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:24:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Various and Sundry--Mostly Pleas for Help :-)

In a message dated 97-05-04 11:47:56 EDT, you write:

<< Wow. Been a long time. I first joined this list right after my father, Don

Carpenter, died in July 1995. >>

Bonnie:

I remember your father sitting with Braughtigan and me on Haight St.

Watching it build. He used to come down to the Tenderloin and talk to me. We

were in front of a movie theatre where I had my photo taken. The one on

Apocayspe Rose. I always wondered if he helped Braughtigan find a publisher.

I had published some of B's poems. Sorry for your loss.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:06:21 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: jk's heritage

In-Reply-To: <199705050407.VAA14124@netcom.netcom.com>

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

>

> Now ... let's end this here before we get another 90 messages

> from Italy ...

>

yup,thats right rinaldo what does that mean, anyway?

people are discussing serious toppings ;) and you send us some

kinderkacke!

no, lets get serious. all i know about this kerouac estate fight is what i

learned from the recent postings and i am sad to hear that it has come

that far.

gerald, your arguments sound reasonable and honest and i know why "the

other side" dont comment, their selfish, profit-oriented and anti-social

behaviour is revealed and everything they said now, would only be silly or

pointless. i just cant understand why the rest of you stay silent...

as i understand it this is about the future of the teaching of the

wonderful literary history of the US. with all its light and shadow.

proof me wrong or standup against the material profit of the selfish

individual who betray the community.

mit freundlichen gruessen

moritz rossbach,saarbruecken, germany

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:28:42 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Looking for Jack...

> Coming soon from Upstart Crow Publishing:

>

> Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

> by Paul A. Maher Jr.

>

> This will be published in a limited quantity of 500 copies this summer.

> This will be available by reservation only.

> More info is forthcoming.....

>

Who posted this? How can I get on the list to purchase one a copy? Whoever

posted this said to e-mail privately, but then didn't leave an e-mail address

(please keep in mind that not everybody gets the original "from" line).

Please post your e-mail, or e-mail ME privately so I can get more info!

---Wes Lundburg

wlundburg@mail.ff.cc.mn.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:31:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: More than enough

Rinaldo

Can't stop

cuz

he likes

to

Bop.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:38:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Looking for Jack...

At 08:28 AM 5/5/97 CDT, you wrote:

>> Coming soon from Upstart Crow Publishing:

>>

>> Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

>> by Paul A. Maher Jr.

>>

>> This will be published in a limited quantity of 500 copies this summer.

>> This will be available by reservation only.

>> More info is forthcoming.....

>>

>

>Who posted this? How can I get on the list to purchase one a copy? Whoever

>posted this said to e-mail privately, but then didn't leave an e-mail address

>(please keep in mind that not everybody gets the original "from" line).

>

>Please post your e-mail, or e-mail ME privately so I can get more info!

>

>---Wes Lundburg

>wlundburg@mail.ff.cc.mn.us

>You may want to contact Water Row Press at waterrow@aol.com. Keep in mind

that this is a work in progress and won't be ready for a few more months.

Thanks, Paul...

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:46:01 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: grocery and other haunts

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

In-Reply-To: <336B37A9.1A36@midusa.net>

SEND THE GROCERY POEM AS IS!

My thoughts have grown much more pensive in the frozen food isles (a land

far away) after having read it.

-Shan (list lurker)

On Sat, 3 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> PAM wrote:

> >

> > >Hi Dave! You can recieve a copy for $5.00. Try submitting your poem for

> > publication if you want. You may send both (or one or the other) to:

> > The Kerouac Quarterly

> > 34 North Rd. #7

> > Chelmsford, MA. 01824 Thanks, Paul...

>

> so i'm thinkin' about submitting the grocery poem to KQ. could people

> more versed in verse be so kind as to send me some suggestions for

> editing and revisions. please be brutal.

>

> then i'll work it a bit massage it here and there and there and here

> and then figure out a way to get my printer running so that i can print

> it and send it earthmail.

>

> i appreciate ideas from anyone out there. we're all born critics - just

> some are born nice and polite too :)

>

> david rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:02:09 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Estate of the State, for Rinaldo

Rinaldo, as a student of American literature I'm sure you know that in

America you ain't nobody until you have filed a claim to help fulfill your

personal dream and/or been subpoenaed to participate in one: I sue/I am

sued, ergo I existimento. Litigation is what we have instead of love. Or

honor. Or life. As for Jack's estate and related palavers, remember that

famous line from American Lit., from <Death of a Salesman>, where Willy

Loman realizes that he is "worth more dead than alive." (Life

insurance--heh heh--so he hits the road, and runs into a real wall; of

course, what his sons really wanted was--surprise--love! Biff is Beat.) O

Jack, he knew this, Buddhawise. It depressed him to realize that people

were promoting him into a stardom (it got to Neal earlier) from which there

is seldom an escape, even or especially on the road. Booze, drugs, that's

the pill! Meanwhile there is no American Dream without a commensurate

number of woodticks and tape worms.// John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:32:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

>Now ... let's end this here before we get another 90 messages

>from Italy ...

well we could all just each reply to each of Rianldo's posts...to rinaldo

direct, not the beat-l

How many folks on the list? say 20. 20 * 90, 1800 50? 4500 letters in one

day to one mailbox?

of course iam am only pointing out a danger rinaldo has set himself up for.

don't really do it.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:33:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry ????????

At 11:56 PM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Gerry, you really didn't respond to this post.

>

>

>>>Gerry, I just looked at an uncorrected proof of "Some of the Dharma" and on

>>one of the first pages it states that the manuscript/notebooks (maybe 8 of

>>them can't remember how many)for "Some of the Dharma" were placed in the

>>Berg collection of the New York Public Library in 1993 by John Sampas. What

>>do you have to say about that? If it's not true why would it be in the book?

>>

>>By the way Gerry the folks at Lowell Celebrates Kerouac all work very hard

>>to promote Kerouac and you are doing a terrible disservice when you go and

>>try to put us down because in your mind we are all part of the Sampas

>>conspiracy theory. I can assure you that many of the decent folks that work

>>hard to put this festival on every year don't know or care about your

>>squabbles with the Sampas family. Ed Sanders the main feature at the

>>festival last year did do a nice little tribute to Jan Kerouac at the

>>festival. You know what, his hotel bill was paid isn't that amazing? I'm not

>>sure but the probable reason you or Jan haven't been asked to speak is

>>because it's not "Lowell Celebrates Lawsuits" it's "Lowell Celebrates

>>Kerouac" and I'm quite sure that is what your agenda would be. It seems to

>>be your only one lately. We accept donations from anyone willing to give and

>>I haven't heard of any checks coming in from you ever. Maybe you would like

>>it better if no one donated anything and we didn't promote Kerouac at all in

>>Lowell. It seems like that is what you want. Keep your beef with John

>>private and don't try to drag down people that truly want to do some good

>>and promote Kerouac. Phil Chaput

>>

Dear Phil, 5/5/97

This is getting ridiculous. You're wasting my time, I'm not going

to answer the same questions twice. Did you not get the post I sent in

reply, beginning: "Jeffrey Weinberg told me he sold BOOK OF DREAMS to a

private collector"? I got the report from Beat-List saying it was sent.

The only thing I left out is that federal funding was cut from the

Lowell Kerouac Committee after complaints were made to the National Park

Service about the partisan use of funding for past Kerouac events. Even the

National Park Service doesn't think your committee deserves funding any

more--so why should I fund it?

Tell Sampas to get on here himself, so we can stop running around in

circles and get to the heart of the matter.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:19:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Emilio Vedova e i beats?.

cari amici beats,

'bout Emilio Vedova, is the greatest painter living at

present in italy & he is venetian, he lives in an house

near Punta della Dogana (San Marco Place)where is the

Museo delle Bell Arti di Venezia, paintings of most venetian

artists are in this building.

i past time known a disceple of Emilio Vedova, & in my

room (computer room) at home there a CRAB painted by

former friend Tenenti Giancarlo (the Vedova disceple),

how is the Vedova paint? it's not realist & not abstractionism,

big & tiny brushstroke on the canvas, the color he prefer

is black & white, Emilio Vedova is an old man & a teacher

at the Accademia delle Belle Arti of Venice,

if u like send me a feedback & give u more 'bout Emilio Vedova,

in this moment i remind that also Lawrence Ferlinghetti

is involved in painting & some remind me Emilio Vedova

e.g. L.F. "Untled" where a bridge is sketched a' la E. Vedova,

in my opinion, u know sure that ferlinghetti is an aficionado

'bout italian scene (sad on the florentine side, not venetian...)

& if u see the book cover of "Scene italiane" there's a

ferlighetti's paint "Morning Vision" that again vedovaesque feeling.

well, for HST i refer to "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" in my

italian translation (sandro veronesi did it, nice!) & there's

painting by Ralph Steadman that has on a side a Grosz feeling

but on the other side ink blot on the page e.g. chapter 6.

is Vedova style,

----

a brief bio

VEDOVA Emilio,

(Venezia 8 september 19919 - living)

Pittore. Tra i maggiori esponenti dell'arte informale

italiana, in contatto a Milano (1942-43) con Corrente

fu nel dopoguerra tra i promotori del Fronte nuovo

delle arti e nel 1952 fece parte del gruppo degli

Otto, volgendosi a un espressionismo astratto forte

e gestuale. OP:Sbarramento (1951), Venezia,

Fondazione P. Guggenheim.

----

vale!

cari saluti da

Rinaldo.

* a not competent beet *

* TUTTI GIU' PER TERRA *

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:18:59 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: the "chinese room"

amici beats, we're put our own hands on a new media, joking sometime

in the "chinese room" & this means mes'are cyberhermetic,

do u remember "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest"

by Ken Kesey? a great moment at the start...

* the beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:31:37 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

>I really only brought this up because I think John Sampas, as Jack Kerouac's

>literary executor, also has the right to call the shots as he sees

>them, and I think he must have his own private reasons, just as you

>have yours in this "Parrot Fever" situation, for taking the actions that

>you have objected to.

>

Dear Levi, May 5, 1997

I did not have PRIVATE reasons for withholding the PARROT FEVER

excerpt; I had good LEGAL reasons.

I don't question that John Sampas currently has the LEGAL RIGHT to

sell off Kerouac's property, publish or withhold Kerouac's books, etc. I do

question whether or not he has the MORAL RIGHT to break up Kerouac's archive

into hundreds of pieces, destroying its scholarly value (as attested to by

such experts as Matthew Bruccoli of the University of South Carolina, Tom

Staley of U. of T., Austin, and Tony Bliss of Bancroft, Berkeley, among others).

Doesn't Mr. Sampas owe something to the man who made him and his

family wealthy? Doesn't he owe something to Kerouac as a writer who

enriched the entire world by what he wrote? I don't mean OWE in a legal

sense here. I mean the kind of debt we owe the dead, when they have helped

us in their lifetime.

For the nth time I say, if Mr. Sampas truly intends to keep Jack

Kerouac's papers together in a library, then why doesn't he tell us when he

will do this, and what is keeping him from doing it NOW???

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:46:55 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: apologies@cruzio.com

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> as gif image now i'm considering to limit my writing...

> .-

Beat Community Genius Rinaldo. Spanking new channels email surprising

communication. Possibilities to contemplate, play with, digest. Shit.

Have a beutiful Monday.

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:05:54 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell"@cruzio.com

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> Dear Levi, May 5, 1997

>

> I did not have PRIVATE reasons for withholding the PARROT FEVER

> excerpt; I had good LEGAL reasons.

> I don't question that John Sampas currently has the LEGAL RIGHT to

> sell off Kerouac's property, publish or withhold Kerouac's books, etc.

Dear Gerald,

I continue to pay reluctant close attention to this very tasteless, rude

incessant intrusion that we have been bombarded with lately. At the same

time I am also grateful for the information that broadens my

understanding of matters beat, writing, publishing, authoring, and life

at the end of the twentieth century. Not just in the USA. I am

fascinated by the energy, intelligence and devotion, seemingly to the

cause. What cause, a cause that I haven't completely bought yet. Even

forgetting the objections raised by Rod and others. Comes now Levi's

entry, and what's this? Do I see a stumble? Do you consider this an

adequate response? A legal right is sufficient reason for you and is

there a total absence of need for moral reason(s) when it comes to your

actions? Am I overlooking something here?

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:28:13 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 May 1997 09:32:09 -0700 from

<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Timothy, what a wonderful idea! 100 messages x 250 or so a day. Just remember

to reply directly to Rinaldo not to the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 11:29:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: mean words

In-Reply-To: <m0wORPh-000rVmC@gpnet.it>

I had a nasty/spicy horrible fight yesterday.

Feel small like Alice...without the sensation of falling down the hole.

So you know what?

I want a point in the literary direction of one of our beats deflecting

the invasive harsh words that come along with dissolution.

-Shan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:43:08 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Nice Words

Shannon L. Stephens wrote:

>

> I had a nasty/spicy horrible fight yesterday.

> Feel small like Alice...without the sensation of falling down the hole.

> So you know what?

> I want a point in the literary direction of one of our beats deflecting

> the invasive harsh words that come along with dissolution.

>

> -Shan

Many a day I have that Alice feeling myself.

Here are some nice words. I haven't figured out what they mean yet.

I've been thinking about them quite a bit - perhaps too much.

I have no reason to quibble with the absence of judgement placed in

Things by the Absent Judge who builded the world without building it.

Without building it.

-- Desolation Angels

Perhaps someone or many someones can explain or interpret these words to

let me sense better why they hit me so directly in my mind's eye.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:11:30 -500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Merry Pranksters Hit Chicago (and the Web)

Thought those of you who can't make it to Borders (I'm hoping

to be there) would like to at least be there virtually. WXRT is

Chicago's best music station BTW...

Nick W-W

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Online Be-in With WXRT And Ken Kesey

>

> From: wxrt@MCS.COM (WXRT)

> Date: 3 May 1997 00:09:26 -0500

> Organization: MCSNet Services

> Newsgroups: chi.media

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Ken Kesey and more than a dozen Merry Pranksters are

> crossing America in Kesey's 1947 International Harvester school bus en

> route to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland to celebrate the

> museums new exhibit, I Want To Take You Higher: The Psychedelic Era

> 1965-1969, opening on May 10, 1997. And yes, they are making a stop in

> Chicago.

>

> The Chicago stop takes place on May 7 from noon-3pm at Borders Books at

> Diversey and Clark in Chicago and you are invited to attend. If you can't

> make it in person, drop by the XRT web site at http://www.wxrt.com and

> check out the digital be-in. We'll be featuring QTVR's of Kesey's bus

> "Furthur," downloadable movie clips, streaming audio segments, photos,

> and text comments collected during the event.

>

> WXRT made its first foray into netcasting during the Democratic National

> Convention as part of the Chicago96 web site, www.chicago96.org . That

> web site received over a million hits during the course of the convention

> week and was called the "...most fun convention site" by The New York

> Times.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:02:00 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97050514300998@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

I fail to see the wonder. Rinaldo was constantly risking an absurdity, I

admit. I too didn't want his protestant spree to go on much longer, but at

least his one or two liners were quick to read and delete. And, for me at

least, his deluge was a funny wake-up call from the torrents of spring

being spewed by others more Beat-List correct in their bop prosody, whose

word-counts for a single day at times have far out-numbered Rinaldo's.

Still, I respect this All-American, no doubt Beat-nik thing, of ganging up

on an individual for breaking the rules of TeeVee decorum, not to mention

the black beret and bongo individuality of all wearing the same Beat-List

T-shirt while jamming Rinaldo. At moment's like this I'm glad Jack's dead.

// John M.

>Timothy, what a wonderful idea! 100 messages x 250 or so a day. Just

>remember

>to reply directly to Rinaldo not to the list.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:06:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

I want to point out that I didn't say we should do this to Rinaldo.

I said that Rinaldo should be aware of what possibilities he opens his

e-mail account up to when he does this.

At 02:02 PM 5/5/97 -0600, you wrote:

>I fail to see the wonder. Rinaldo was constantly risking an absurdity, I

>admit. I too didn't want his protestant spree to go on much longer, but at

>least his one or two liners were quick to read and delete. And, for me at

>least, his deluge was a funny wake-up call from the torrents of spring

>being spewed by others more Beat-List correct in their bop prosody, whose

>word-counts for a single day at times have far out-numbered Rinaldo's.

>Still, I respect this All-American, no doubt Beat-nik thing, of ganging up

>on an individual for breaking the rules of TeeVee decorum, not to mention

>the black beret and bongo individuality of all wearing the same Beat-List

>T-shirt while jamming Rinaldo. At moment's like this I'm glad Jack's dead.

>// John M.

>

>

>>Timothy, what a wonderful idea! 100 messages x 250 or so a day. Just

>>remember

>>to reply directly to Rinaldo not to the list.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:07:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

Beat Friends. . .

Man oh man, we got a doozy on our hands with this estate battle, huh? I

don't know what to say, obviously we have to very rigid and divided camps,

and, as best I can tell, only one is represented on the list.

At first I tended to side with Nicosia, simply because he was the only one

talking, but with the addition of Levi's nugget of info, I think I'm

beginning to distance myself from both sides because it all sounds too

goddamned complicated, and vendetta-based.

Whether or not this observation is accurate, I'm going to make it: It

appears that Nicosia wants to be granted the free reign to say anything he

damn well pleases with the added benefit of being able to rescind and

adjust his statements when he sees it necessary. Case in point, Levi and

the book excerpt. Why, Nicosia, didn't you make it clear to Levi in the

beginning why you asked him to remove the excerpt? It seems obvious to me

why Levi was befuddled by you. I can almost bet that had you conducted

yourself with a bit more tact, Levi would be one of your champions. And

because of Levi's love of and dedication to all things Beat, never mind his

good nature in all discussions I've seen him chime in on, I tend to align

myself with him, trusting that his impressions of situations are accurate,

well-balanced, and well-thought. (No pressure, Levi, really).

I think it comes down to this: Be consistent, dammit!

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:58:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gatt implications to intellectual property....

I've uncovered all my copyright files in an attempt to check this out - it

looks to me like it only applies to work initially published overseas, not

in the US, so it wouldn't therfore apply. All very strange. Sorry for the

diversion, should have checked before posting.The whole thing was kept very

quiet though.

There are a number of huge web sites devoted to the works of authors in the

public domain - Project Gutenberg is one of the main ones. They're mostly

university funded or sponsored, and the contents are usually free to all who

wish to browse and have web access. Works can be quite expensive to mount if

you want them well designed and with hypertext links. The ALTX site is

another place starting to put up pout of print works (they have one of

Ronald Sukenick's books up already).

Nick

>Nick,

>

> First of all, thanks for your sig file with its the regular reminder

>of the proper approach to getting - "don't let the bastards grind you down"

>...lots better than my two Roman legionaire standbyes, "Nolo urinare contra

>ventum." and "Semper ubi sub ubi."

>

> Reading about the confused situation regarding the Kerouac estate,

>and now seeing the intricacies of copyright renewal and the potential for

>misses, has been an odd mix of feeling disheartened together with a sense of

>tension and suspense as each new twist is unveiled.

>

> The digitization idea of Michael Stutz is an excellent one and made

>me wonder if there is much web access to digitized works of the size of the

>Kerouac novels. The Gatt twist seems an incredibly important development in

>the intellectual property area. What are the specific limitations to

>applying this. Is it obscure enough that Gerald Nicosia or the Sampas family

>would have missed the chance that it provided? Gerald / Gerry?

>

> This seems to make it important to have/build an index of what the

>copyright renewal options are on the whole body of Beat lierature even

>though we're ten to twenty years past the critical time period for renewal.

>Does the publishing industry maintain such a resource? Anyway,I hope that

>you and the otehrs involved in publishing in all its froma will continue to

>educate us.

>

> Thanks Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:09:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Merry Pranksters Hit Chicago (and the Web)

In a message dated 97-05-05 15:45:57 EDT, you write:

<<

Thought those of you who can't make it to Borders (I'm hoping

to be there) would like to at least be there virtually. WXRT is

Chicago's best music station BTW...

Nick W-W

>>

This post smacks of an ad. BTW...XRT sux...try NUR or ZRD...And we have

problems w/ Border's mgt. in this town.

beano

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:31:24 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Merry Pranksters Hit Chicago (and the Web)

Any idea which Pranksters are on the bus beside Kesey?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:51:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merry Pranksters Hit Chicago (and the Web)

Oh well excuse me for troubling you. Plus, the Borders in question is the

one that actually has a union after the big fight for it, so it seems rather

pointless boycotting that one. As for XRT, a matter of opinion I think.

Nick

>This post smacks of an ad. BTW...XRT sux...try NUR or ZRD...And we have

>problems w/ Border's mgt. in this town.

>

> beano

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:52:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Merry Pranksters Hit Chicago (and the Web)

In a message dated 97-05-05 16:44:26 EDT, you write:

<<

Oh well excuse me for troubling you. >>

I don't believe I ever suggested a boycot, simply made a comment about

Border's management in general.

As for XRT, I believe, in taste, rather than opinion. Semantics?

beano

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:01:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: merry pranksters hit windy city and radio netville

seriously now folks, fuck the $$$$ signs and billboards that bump the soggin

noggin, it's the only way that I can get on the damned bus and I'ma gonna

git thair one way or ta other, I'm just glad that the radio station

obviously steeped in true hype is bringing the intrepid trip to us all here

on the beat list as I am digging the Further web site connected to the shin

bone of the radio site as you dudes and dudettes beep one another on the net

well guess what children the bus is pulling away and as they say you are

either on the bus or off the well beaten rug tug shug mug and don't paint

the tires ya know you gotta go man never spank a yankster and shooby doo a

prankster and download the road in the garter belt 30 weight wahoo uphill

race towards big wheel dr. feelgood got the cure and you can keep the

deezeezeeeeeeee. . . chicago blow me home blow me down blow me upriver and

sing me beat daddy

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:17:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: nice words

acceptance

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:02:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bonnie Lee Howard <howardb@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Various and Sundry--Mostly Pleas for Help :-)

In-Reply-To: <970504232402_-1031159111@emout02.mail.aol.com>

On Sun, 4 May 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-04 11:47:56 EDT, you write:

>

> << Wow. Been a long time. I first joined this list right after my father, Don

> Carpenter, died in July 1995. >>

> Bonnie:

> I remember your father sitting with Braughtigan and me on Haight St.

> Watching it build. He used to come down to the Tenderloin and talk to me. We

> were in front of a movie theatre where I had my photo taken. The one on

> Apocayspe Rose. I always wondered if he helped Braughtigan find a publisher.

> I had published some of B's poems. Sorry for your loss.

> Charles Plymell

Thanks. And thanks for the memories, too. I don't know whether dad helped

R.B. find a publisher or not. It's possible. After I found out about dad's

suicide, the first person I contacted was Brautigan's daughter. She gave

me some great advice (especially "do NOTHING for a year"). My father and

Brautigan were very close for a long time, and both killed themselves

almost exactly ten years apart. But under very different circumstances.

My father was instrumental in helping Philip Whalen get some stuff

published. You wanna hear a good story about Phil? It's kinda cute:

We lived in Noe Valley in the early 60's, and Phil used to babysit for us

kids so that my parents could go out. My sister and I were very little and

pretty bratty. One night Phil was babysitting and had fallen asleep on the

couch. My sister and I decided to play with something forbidden: fire. Uh

oh. We lit a bunch of candles and were pouring the hot molten wax around,

just generally making an awful mess. We got some wax on our hands, and

when we pulled it off, it made sort of a model of our fingers. So we then

got the bright idea of making a mold of Phil's face while he was snoring

peacefully on the couch. Poor Whalen: I will never forget the look on his

face when he awoke with two preschoolers standing over him, dribbling hot

wax onto his face. Yikes! He could have gotten us into a whole lot of

trouble, but he never did tell my parents what we did, and how stupid and

dangerous it was. I will always love him for that :-)

Oh dear: I am doing it again...getting all nahs-talgic. I'll stop now :-)

Bonnie

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:19:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Various and Sundry--Mostly Pleas for Help :-)

so that's why the poor man became a monk!

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:00:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Moritz Rossbach from Germany wrote:

>i just cant understand why the rest of you stay silent... as i understand it

this is about the future of the teaching of the wonderful literary history of

the US. with all its light and shadow.

I've been thinking a lot about the Kerouac Estate Battle and I've got to tell

you I've been very troubled by the whole thing for a lot of reasons. I can

empathize with Rinaldo's flooding the list (feel his pain, as it were) while

at the same time being irked that I had to wade through all this junk he was

sending my way and everybody else's.

It was obvious to me and probably many others that he'd had it, he just

didn't want to deal with the idea of a lawsuit involving the works of JK. He

was shouting "Make Nice! Play Fair!" in his crazy Venetian broken English

way.

As I settled into a fitful sleep last night I got to thinking too that this

is a parallel with Nicosia and Jan. They've been shouting from the rooftops,

flooding the list as it were, trying to get the attention of anybody who

would listen, trying to make a case people didn't want to hear. And if Jan

hadn't been Kerouac's blood and Nicosia the recognized foremost authority on

Kerouac's life nobody would have listened. But some have listened, with

attending press coverage, and the courts have listened saying in effect

"maybe there is something to look at here".

Now Rinaldo is a valued member of this list and while a lot of people fired

back at him for the flooding episode I heard no calls to silence him or ban

him from the Beat-L. Indeed, as a community, we reached out to him.

I think it's time for this community to reach out to Gerry Nicosia. Is there

really any doubt why he's here? Is there really any doubt what he's playing

for? You may think he's misguided, but is there really any doubt as to his

sincerity?

The people on the Beat-L make up a core constituency of Kerouac fans from all

over the world. We're the people who are dedicated enough and passionate

enough to invest our time to keep abreast of situations and interact with one

another on a regular basis. And if we don't care enough about this

situation, as complicated as it may be, who will?

Now I don't know John Sampas. I wouldn't know him if I fell over him. But

what if Nicosia is right?

Gerry Nicosia has been battling with few allies long enough. It can't be

easy fighting alone and watching a good friend, the one you've been fighting

alongside of all this while, die in the middle of it.

You know, court cases are not an easy thing... believe me, I know, I've been

involved in more than one. They weigh on you, they wake you up in the middle

of the night, they rob you of your time and of your life. And sometimes you

feel like chucking it all and giving up simply because you don't want to

fight any more.

What would happen if Gerry Nicosia gave up this fight? And what would happen

if at some point in the future someone intimate to the situation finally let

it be known that the will was in fact forged and John Sampas knew it? How

would we all feel then? What loss would we feel? What injustice?

Gerry Nicosia has been on this list for over a week now telling what he knows

and making literally dozens of claims and assertions and all we've heard from

anybody else is "we shouldn't be making a public spectacle" of the situation.

Any counterclaims made to Nicosia have been side issues and personal beefs.

No one has made one credible argument that what he is stating is not true.

And yet I haven't heard a lot of support either.

I really can't understand this. I thought there were a lot of people on this

list who have minds of their own and who are well versed on the details of

all this. Why aren't we hearing from you?

Why are so many people sitting on the fence regarding this keeping their

silence? What are you afraid of? What do you have invested that's going to

unravel if you say what you know?

This just doesn't make sense to me. As a group we debate issues ad nauseam

about things we can never affect. We get into major arguments about whether

Burroughs really meant to kill his wife, a thing none of us can ever prove.

We shout at each other about "Who is Beat/Who is not Beat". We fight over

the "Gen X versus the Beats" every other month! We muster the troops and

fire off e-mails and faxes and phone calls because a college student might

get expelled for reading HOWL in public or a DJ most of us never heard of

gets canned for playing it over the airwaves.

This Estate Battle is something we might be able to have an impact on! This

is something that is real and alive and will make a difference to Kerouac

fans like all of us for decades to come. There are people out there, I'm

convinced, reading this note right now who know something about this case

that might make a difference. Why won't you come forward? Why won't you

talk about what you know? Maybe you know someone who knows something but you

don't want to ask. What grips you so tightly that keeps you silent?

What shocks me is between all the Scholars and Intimates and Business

Associates and Historians that I thought populated this list is the many who

seem so unwilling to talk about what they know. Everybody says, "I'm not

going to get into it" or "Let's keep it private" or whatever.

I've heard a few people say Jan and Gerry did make a difference with their

high profile protests in the sense that John Sampas has stopped or at least

slowed down on his selling off various artifacts. Everyone seems to agree

this is a good thing, regardless of whether he has a legal right to do so or

regardless of whether the will is legitimate.

To those of you who were hurt in some fashion by Jan and Gerry making a noisy

stink at your event I think you've got to look at the greater good here. It

sounds to me like nobody was listening to them until they started screaming

bloody murder and calling in the press and upsetting people. And if that is

what it took for the original manuscript of On The Road and other items to

remain out of the hands of private collectors where they would never again

see the light of day then I would think you would have to agree that is a

good thing.

And I'm not necessarily even on Nicosia's side on this! I'm after the truth!

If you've got something that shows Gerry Nicosia is only in it for the money

or the glory, launch it. If you can show he's lying about his motives, prove

it! And if you've got something that shows he's all wet, then show me.

He's sure opened himself up for it. And if that is true I for one would

want to know.

I think it all boils down to this: Did Gerry Nicosia and Jan Kerouac step on

a lot of people's toes? Absolutely! They made a lot of noise and pissed a

lot of people off, thereby making a lot of enemies as well. They also

apparently succeeded somewhat in one of their aims which was to shine a light

on the selling of irreplacable items and possibly slowing things down or

delaying them.

One of the things I've heard over and over here is "this case is

complicated". Yes it is complicated. Life is complicated, human affairs are

complicated - Jack Kerouac himself showed us that over and over again in his

writing which is one of the reasons we love him so. But to say, "I don't

want to deal with it because it's complicated" is selling yourself short and

just plain lazy. To simply dismiss the issue because you don't want to be

bothered is not going to make it go away.

And if not us, here on the Beat-L, then who?

Folks, I'll tell ya, if I knew something that would support either Nicosia or

Sampas, something that could make difference in this case and I did not come

forward because I was concerned about my business relationships or my

professional standing or whatever, I could not rest easy with that knowledge.

And if I was keeping my silence because I'd had a disagreement or beef with

Nicosia (or Sampas) that had very little to do with the issue at hand I would

be ashamed of myself for letting my fellows and future generations down.

This situation, though complicated, is too important to posterity to allow

petty squabbles to get in the way. I would have to come forward with what I

know.

How will you sleep tonight?

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

"Candor prevents paranoia".

Allen Ginserg

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:17:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

In-Reply-To: <970505200028_1685986959@emout15.mail.aol.com>

>

> Why are so many people sitting on the fence regarding this keeping their

> silence? What are you afraid of? What do you have invested that's going to

> unravel if you say what you know?

the very fact that i dont know anything is what is going to unravel if i

pop my head in on this debate. That and the fact that were in the middle

of finals. Great letter though Jerry and indeed if i had something

important to say regarding the issue believe me i would say it. But as

for now im just soaking up all emails about it. I for one really

appreciate the time and effort that Gerry is giving to convince us of the

truth. (his truth?) Im just waiting for this whole court case

thing to blow down and im hoping that he remains on the list so we can ask

the Great Kerouac biographer questions about the man himself and not his

estate.

and I'm waiting for the American Boy to take off Beauty's clothes and get

on top of her.

matt

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:23:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila's Questions, Final Chapter

In a message dated 97-05-04 17:02:29 EDT, you write:

<< attila devasted venice italy in earlier times,

so i for my ancestor i beg his pardon.. >>

For my ancestor, I beg your pardon.

By the way, Attila The Hun was a beat.

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:41:59 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Jerry,

You letter very thoughtful and intense and to long to quote.

I speak not as a Kerouac expert who would have some really factual

evidence on this but as a fan of Kerouac's. Most of us on the list

don't have legally compelling facts on this. I suspect that many of my

fellow listmembers are silent primarily for that reason.

What it really seems to come down to is if the will was forged. I doubt

if anyone on the list has any information on that than we have already

heard. The other question would be whether artifacts are being sold, is

that legal, and is that proper. Some may have information on items that

have been sold. They may have views on whether John Sampas has the

right to sell these things.

As very much an outsider on this issue it just seems like an awful mess

that I can't do anything about. When Jan was still alive and pressing

her claim I waited to hear from some respected somewhat neutral voice

like Allen Ginsberg. No word was forthcoming. It's hard not to feel

sorry for Jan, but it seems pretty obvious that Jan's problem stemmed

more from Jack's actions than from anything the Sampas family had done.

It would seem that Jack had the right to mess up his estate, disinherit

his daughter, etc and that this is what he did. I also thought I was

hearing in this debate a sort of prejedice against the Sampas family

because they were not as hip as Jan's partisans. Maybe I'm wrong, but

it seemed that way.

I haven't heard anyone on the list question Nicosia's great contribution

to Kerouac legacy. I don't think many doubt his sincerity. But I don't

know whether he is right and there is a tone which comes from his

statements and Jo Grant's that puts me off. They see a huge conspiracy

of evil folks out there and they are the sole possesors of truth. Maybe

Rod Anastee and Phil Chaput are trying to hide a terrible wrong, but

Rod's tone of "don't trust me, don't trust them, wait for the facts"

rings truer for me. Levi's post also suggested that Nicosia is tending

to make enemies out of reasonable people who don't want to be in this

fight. I've seen these estate fights before and they are damn ugly.

Everybody's at least part wrong most of the time. These are certainly

my own reasons for the silence that you and Moritz find so suprising.

I just want to read the books. I don't really care who gets rich and

rather doubt anyone will. What's legal may not be fair. Life isn't

fair. I am certain that more truth will emerge on this, and that even if

I am tired of the argument, it is an important issue for the list to

deal with.

Respectfully leaving the field to the experts.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:56:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: LAST "ESTATE" POST/plus DR. SAX!

First of all, I was amazed & delighted today, but not totally

surprised, of course, by Charley Plymell's great post on the

subject of his LAST OF THE MOCCASINS vis-a-vis (not to say

"versus") Kerouac's DOCTOR SAX. Obviously it demands a response

in the next short while!

However, I wanted to close the JK ESTATE chapter first. I am very

uncomfortable with many of my posts last week on this subject,

including my most recent one, late Saturday night. I stand behind

the opinions that I have expressed recently, and the "facts" I

have attempted to establish, but I feel that within the context

of the Beat-List much of the discussion on this topic has become

entirely too personal, and fully accept my part in this. On

Sunday, I decided to take any further discussion of this issue

with Gerry "Off-List." I'm not sure what I expected by way of a

response (other than, of course, COMPLETE AND UTTER REFUTATION of

my entire argument, complete with references to Nazi history, and

Gerry's domestic situation), but what I rec'd was a letter,

quoting part of my original, private correspondence to him, which

was being simultaneously e-mailed BOTH to me AND to "jogrant" at the

BOOKZEN website. I do not know Mr. Grant personally, but his postings,way

back at the beginning of this thread, struck me right from the

start as essentially being the Gerry Nicosia "take' on the

situation without much in the way of balance or critical

analysis. Anyway, I cannot say I was particularly surprised by this

latest incidence of Gerry's inability to set any limits for

himself -- it is simply that it amounts to the last straw, as far

as I'M personally concerned.

I have no way of knowing -- but I hope!? -- that the discussions

of the past week may have convinced at least a few people out

there in Beat-List Land that this whole issue is VERY complicated

and, at its very root, it is a struggle over Money & Power --

nothing new in that, of course! -- but over ENOUGH money & power

that it's become a WAR. One of the first lawyers who ever called

me for comments on this struggle very frankly likened it to the

absolute worst, nastiest divorce case that he had ever

encountered -- AND I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER WHICH SIDE HE WAS

WORKING FOR! But the point is, we all know about the first

casualty of any war.

As I said before, I have no way of knowing whether or not

Gabrielle Kerouac's will was a forged document. I also do not

consider myself, at least, a partisan for either side of this

affair -- indeed, I feel utterly safe in asserting that I am on

the "Enemies List" tacked up in both of their clubhouses. I just

feel that whatever TRUTH & JUSTICE may have been there at one

point, in some quasi-objective sense, is no longer obtainable,

and probably no longer exists, legally or morally. And certainly

the characters fighting things out right now are, to my mind,

entirely degraded and transparent as to their motivations and

goals. No heros. No villains. Each side as bad as the other, only

worse. No matter what anybody tells you about the situation,

they will have reasons for saying what they tell you, and reasons

for leaving out the things they leave out. My mantra.

I know that as soon as this is posted, Gerry will write and post

a response, COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY REFUTING everything I've said.

I've only just really come to realize and accept that I can't

help that. No end, no way out.

Finally, someone asked earlier how to go about doing the kind of

private research you might want to do in order to form a properly

informed opinion on this issue. I make no grandiose claims, but

for anyone interested, I have about 3 or 4 binders full of

original Gerry Nicosia letters that might help anyone who's still

interested to form an informed opinion of at least his side of

the equation. My archive's still open to the public, too! No permissions

required!

JUST KIDDING, Gerry! Why don't we just leave that for our kids' lawyers to

fight over, OK? I expect there'll still be lawyers then.

CHEERS. Rod Anstee

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 18:53:45 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re. Movie Star!??

inaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> leon,

> are u a star of a movie?

>

> .-

Hi Rinaldo,

I waited for awhile before answering because I am not sure how you mean

the question. I know you can't be serious.

If life is a movie, then I would say that my role is to be an extra on

the stage with a view. No stardom. Close to some pretty heavy action and

to a few of the star movers and shakers. I learned to appreciate a lot

the roles assigned to me, my destiny, and am quite grateful that I was

not burdened with star roles. I can be and I can do as I choose without

worry that strangers will be uplifted by incorrect interpretations of

me, or be let down by my real actions. Anonymity allows me to keep

experiencing life with freshness. I have seen deadly effects of fame. It

is not easy to deal with. The blessings are overwhelming. Not far from

the surface all kinds of jealousies teem and thrive and bring damage to

the real lives of real people. Even the friends and descendants get

curses mixed in with the blessings they inherited from the famous.

Usually the stars earned the blessings, do not deserve the curses. I am

glad the stars make the world brighter for me also. I am not so sure how

well I could cope with stardom. To have a lot of influence is a

superhuman responsibility. The warmth of interaction, even not face to

face, as is ours here, is strengthening, the lights that we shine over

vast crowds can leave us in vast cold darkness. Do you think all this is

just sour grapes?

If your question is about something that I am missing, please explain it

to me. I will appreciate that.

BTW it is very clear that my response to your cornix messages, meant

compliments, not to be offensive, RIGHT? Just to make sure, the word

"shit" at the end may have been a poor choice. I just meant to say

that's what we do with everything that we take in, we digest, and we

shit out the rest. I was not offended by your mail. On the contrary, I

thought it was a very effective, humorous, interesting, innovative way

to communicate to the list people. You got across to us just how

intensely you

felt, you made us uneasy a bit and got us to pay serious attention with

lightning quick stabs wrapped in gentle humor and kindness. I do believe

you have a genius for

communicating the way that you do. I am glad you think enough about us

to give of yourself as much as you do.

Peace friend

Leon

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:09:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: LAST "ESTATE" POST/plus DR. SAX!

whatever TRUTH & JUSTICE may have been there at one

>point, in some quasi-objective sense, is no longer obtainable,

>and probably no longer exists, legally or morally. And certainly

>the characters fighting things out right now are, to my mind,

>entirely degraded and transparent as to their motivations and

>goals. No heros. No villains. Each side as bad as the other, only

>worse.

>

The above words of Mr. Anstee are so utterly self-righteous that I

wonder where he's been spending his free time.

Not content with belittling the efforts of Jan Kerouac, and myself,

to preserve the Jack Kerouac archive, he now attempts to play God, and to

tell us that Truth and Justice no longer exist, so don't even try to attain

them, gang, let's all just give up and let the world go to hell!

Nothing is right, nothing is wrong, and Mr. Anstee created the world

in 7 days.

There is a right and a wrong in this world, most of the time, and

I've put forth my arguments about why I think preserving the Jack Kerouac

archive in a library is the right thing to do, giving Paul Blake, Jr., a

share of the Kerouac estate is the right thing to do, and letting Jan

Kerouac have a decent burial (not on top of her grandmother to save two

slots in the Kerouac family plot for the Sampas family) is the right thing

to do.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Anstee, Mr. Chaput, and whatever other

Sampas supporters lurk hereabouts to come out and tell me 1) why it is

better for John Sampas to sell off the Kerouac archive to dealers and

collectors for maximum profits; why it is better that the actual Kerouac

blood family get no money from his estate so that all the money can go to

the Sampases (Jan never got a penny from his estate, she got all her money

through the federal copyright law, and Paul Blake, Jr. got nothing at all);

3) why it is better for John Sampas to control Kerouac scholarship, the

Kerouac burial plot, and all other things Kerouacian when there are still

living Kerouac's around.

In rhetoric they call Mr. Anstee's and Mr. Chaput's technique

"argument ad hominum"--in Latin that means "against the man." When you

don't have any good arguments to put forth, you call the other guy

"degraded" or "power-mad" or whatever. I'm still waiting for some real

argument on their part.

As for sending Joe Grant a piece of his email to me, I apologize,

Rod, but I've been blasted by so many of you guys so quickly that I

originally thought your earlier letter to me was from the CUNY BEAT LIST and

that Joe had already seen the whole text, so it was no big deal letting him

see the part I was responding to. You had asserted that Joe was brainwashed

by me, so I figured I might as well give you an equal chance (just kidding).

The truth is I am getting a little punchy from being pinned down in

this ambush. I've answered probably over 100 questions in 10 days, while my

opponents answer nothing. Sampas won't tell us what he's sold, Anstee won't

tell us why he won't publish his essay called "1400 dots" (or even let us

glimpse it here) about how Ann Charters censored the SELECTED LETTERS at

Sampas's behest, and Chaput won't say why I should donate money to a

committee that's pulled every dirty trick in the book to keep me out of

Lowell--and finally had the financial plug pulled on them by the National

Park Service for their questionable dealings.

OK, fellas, you've had your crack at me. I'll answer more of your

questions after you answer a few of mine.

As for Rod revealing the hundreds (thousands?) of documents I kindly

provided him over the past 13 years, he can do what he wishes with them,

though I hope he'll put them in a library and not auction them off to

collectors and dealers, like his hero. I have nothing to hide, and all said

and done will probably lose money on Jack Kerouac till the day I die.

My wife isn't too happy about that fact, but I care deeply about the

man and his work, what he stood for, the spirituality he boosted in this

country at a time when materialism had just about won the day, and the gift

of truth he gave us all.

Jan cared about that too, and I'll go the distance for that lady.

At least I'm doing my best.

Adios, guys! As for Mr. Sampas, I'm still here, ready and waiting,

to assist you in getting the Kerouac archive into a library.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:08:10 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> are u a horse-race?

YES !!!!! Make your bets now ... i'll hold the money. :)

david

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:32:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> Yes, I have LAST OF THE MOCCASINS here, red cover, $3 on the back...I haven't

> read LAST since about 1975. (SAX I re-read pretty regularly.)

I know that someone may have asked this before but after an unsuccessful

attempt to locate the Last of the Moccasins in a bookstore, I was

wondering if it is still in print, and can it be ordered from any

bookstore?

Diane Carter

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:58:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

In-Reply-To: <970505200028_1685986959@emout15.mail.aol.com>

On Mon, 5 May 1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:

> I've been thinking a lot about the Kerouac Estate Battle and I've got to tell

> you I've been very troubled by the whole thing for a lot of reasons.

[snip]

> I think it's time for this community to reach out to Gerry Nicosia. Is there

> really any doubt why he's here? Is there really any doubt what he's playing

> for? You may think he's misguided, but is there really any doubt as to his

> sincerity?

[snip]

> What would happen if Gerry Nicosia gave up this fight?

[snip]

> No one has made one credible argument that what he is stating is not true.

> And yet I haven't heard a lot of support either.

[snip]

> I really can't understand this.

[snip]

> And I'm not necessarily even on Nicosia's side on this! I'm after the truth!

[snip]

> And if not us, here on the Beat-L, then who?

Jerry-- thanks for the post that summed up what I've been thinking to a T.

While I've been real interested in what's been going on, I haven't wanted to

get in the middle of it or take sides even because it's not my place to --

all I know about it is from these messages, and I was there at NYU when

Gerry and Jan got kicked out, I was real confused -- there's Ann Charters

and Ginsberg etc. just sitting there looking on while Kerouac's daughter &

biographer's being taken out by police, what's going on? -- I'm actually

really sick of all the bickering but it would be nice to see some kind of

resolution. It could be just phantoms of my imagining but I get the feeling

that people who know a good deal about this, or at least people who _should_

know, are not saying anything. Maybe with good reason -- making accusations

in a public, archived forum is never a popular move -- but I have no idea

what's "really" going on in this Estate battle (besides the messages already

posted to this list), and now that it's been dragged this far out into the

open there won't be peace until there is a complete public resolution of the

situation.

> "Candor prevents paranoia".

Oh, and the whole time I was reading your post, this was the quote that kept

popping into my head.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:13:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Various and Sundry--Mostly Pleas for Help :-)

Bonni: Good advice from B's daughter to wait a year.

Delightful story about Phil Whalen He might have thought you were casting

him as a wax role modeloo. I still have his Blake book wth his name signed

neatly in it. I remember his cottage maybe Noe Valley with a little flower

garden in front. I was have rather a bad day on Sandoz Lysergic Acid when I

went to see him. He put his hand around the back of my neck and made me look

at a flower until I calmed down.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:12:52 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> On Mon, 5 May 1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:

>

> > I've been thinking a lot about the Kerouac Estate Battle and I've got to

tell

> > you I've been very troubled by the whole thing for a lot of reasons.

> [snip]

> > I think it's time for this community to reach out to Gerry Nicosia. Is

there

> > really any doubt why he's here? Is there really any doubt what he's playing

> > for? You may think he's misguided, but is there really any doubt as to his

> > sincerity?

> [snip]

> > What would happen if Gerry Nicosia gave up this fight?

> [snip]

> > No one has made one credible argument that what he is stating is not true.

> > And yet I haven't heard a lot of support either.

> [snip]

> > I really can't understand this.

> [snip]

> > And I'm not necessarily even on Nicosia's side on this! I'm after the

truth!

> [snip]

> > And if not us, here on the Beat-L, then who?

>

> Jerry-- thanks for the post that summed up what I've been thinking to a T.

> While I've been real interested in what's been going on, I haven't wanted to

> get in the middle of it or take sides even because it's not my place to --

> all I know about it is from these messages, and I was there at NYU when

> Gerry and Jan got kicked out, I was real confused -- there's Ann Charters

> and Ginsberg etc. just sitting there looking on while Kerouac's daughter &

> biographer's being taken out by police, what's going on? -- I'm actually

> really sick of all the bickering but it would be nice to see some kind of

> resolution. It could be just phantoms of my imagining but I get the feeling

> that people who know a good deal about this, or at least people who _should_

> know, are not saying anything. Maybe with good reason -- making accusations

> in a public, archived forum is never a popular move -- but I have no idea

> what's "really" going on in this Estate battle (besides the messages already

> posted to this list), and now that it's been dragged this far out into the

> open there won't be peace until there is a complete public resolution of the

> situation.

>

> > "Candor prevents paranoia".

> Oh, and the whole time I was reading your post, this was the quote that kept

> popping into my head.

I seriously doubt that this issue will EVER be RESOLVED. Perhaps

history will provide some resolution but my guess is that the divisions

created during a legal dispute concerning Kerouac's Things may spillover

into divisions over scholarship (if they haven't already). My

perception of this thread is that I've learned a lot that I didn't know

up to this point, but i seriously doubt that i am going to learn much

more. i applaud the notion of sending it backchannel. i might have

been too subtle earlier but my Nice Words post was about this

controversy. Nothing against any of the major or minor characters.

david

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:17:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAST "ESTATE" POST/plus DR. SAX!

In-Reply-To: <199705060209.TAA23409@germany.it.earthlink.net>

Dear Mr. Nicosia,

yeah, i could just do the gerry or the gerald--but i guess i come from

the old school where guys you don't know are Mistered; lost art, i think.

of course the other reason i mister you is that i regard your bio of jk

one of the finest critical biographies i have ever had the pelasure to

read. i go back to it so often that it is now in the hallowed halls of

the most-dog-eared books on my shelf; it is not only informative and

sensitive and well-researched, it is also full of soul--obviously

kerouac's, but also your own.

i just want to say that i have been reading your posts quite avidly--and

those from the Other Camp as well.

if tone and substance mean anything anymore, and i steadfastly think that

they do, your willingness to come on beat-l and talk and answer and tell

is worthy of many kudos. the tone of the posts that bomb you, that

pretend to preseent a balanced view of oppositon to your

position--these posts are vitriolic and angry and snotty--they come

up smelling anything but like a rose, from guys lobbing grenades your

way. you came on list and said (pretty much) that anything goes...you

were and are willing to talk and answer... good for you--and good for us.

i, for one, have enjoyed--and been educated--by your being here. i don't

quite yet know where i stand on the jk estate matter...but your reasoned

(and quite astute and fair) position is quite persuasive.

that does not mean i will not listen to the other side--

but the nub of the whole thing seems to be that you favor one jk archive

and keeping the goods together... this is an honorable position.

the folk who have been stridently whacking at you are a bit too snippy and

acidic (yes, rhetoric does

include notions of ethos and pathos and logos!) for this pair of eyes and

ears. they may flog their version of the logos, but....they seem much

happier with snide asides and non sequitors--they zero in on the nicosia

as executor angle--and this gets way in to straw-man and such fallacies.

i would like both sides to keep talking... but, please, no more cheap

shots from what is starting to look like the sampas-camp peanut gallery.

thanks--

best,

steve smith

english dept

portland state university

portland, oregon

On Mon, 5 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> whatever TRUTH & JUSTICE may have been there at one

> >point, in some quasi-objective sense, is no longer obtainable,

> >and probably no longer exists, legally or morally. And certainly

> >the characters fighting things out right now are, to my mind,

> >entirely degraded and transparent as to their motivations and

> >goals. No heros. No villains. Each side as bad as the other, only

> >worse.

> >

>

> The above words of Mr. Anstee are so utterly self-righteous that I

> wonder where he's been spending his free time.

> Not content with belittling the efforts of Jan Kerouac, and myself,

> to preserve the Jack Kerouac archive, he now attempts to play God, and to

> tell us that Truth and Justice no longer exist, so don't even try to attain

> them, gang, let's all just give up and let the world go to hell!

> Nothing is right, nothing is wrong, and Mr. Anstee created the world

> in 7 days.

> There is a right and a wrong in this world, most of the time, and

> I've put forth my arguments about why I think preserving the Jack Kerouac

> archive in a library is the right thing to do, giving Paul Blake, Jr., a

> share of the Kerouac estate is the right thing to do, and letting Jan

> Kerouac have a decent burial (not on top of her grandmother to save two

> slots in the Kerouac family plot for the Sampas family) is the right thing

> to do.

> I'm still waiting for Mr. Anstee, Mr. Chaput, and whatever other

> Sampas supporters lurk hereabouts to come out and tell me 1) why it is

> better for John Sampas to sell off the Kerouac archive to dealers and

> collectors for maximum profits; why it is better that the actual Kerouac

> blood family get no money from his estate so that all the money can go to

> the Sampases (Jan never got a penny from his estate, she got all her money

> through the federal copyright law, and Paul Blake, Jr. got nothing at all);

> 3) why it is better for John Sampas to control Kerouac scholarship, the

> Kerouac burial plot, and all other things Kerouacian when there are still

> living Kerouac's around.

> In rhetoric they call Mr. Anstee's and Mr. Chaput's technique

> "argument ad hominum"--in Latin that means "against the man." When you

> don't have any good arguments to put forth, you call the other guy

> "degraded" or "power-mad" or whatever. I'm still waiting for some real

> argument on their part.

>

> As for sending Joe Grant a piece of his email to me, I apologize,

> Rod, but I've been blasted by so many of you guys so quickly that I

> originally thought your earlier letter to me was from the CUNY BEAT LIST and

> that Joe had already seen the whole text, so it was no big deal letting him

> see the part I was responding to. You had asserted that Joe was brainwashed

> by me, so I figured I might as well give you an equal chance (just kidding).

>

> The truth is I am getting a little punchy from being pinned down in

> this ambush. I've answered probably over 100 questions in 10 days, while my

> opponents answer nothing. Sampas won't tell us what he's sold, Anstee won't

> tell us why he won't publish his essay called "1400 dots" (or even let us

> glimpse it here) about how Ann Charters censored the SELECTED LETTERS at

> Sampas's behest, and Chaput won't say why I should donate money to a

> committee that's pulled every dirty trick in the book to keep me out of

> Lowell--and finally had the financial plug pulled on them by the National

> Park Service for their questionable dealings.

> OK, fellas, you've had your crack at me. I'll answer more of your

> questions after you answer a few of mine.

> As for Rod revealing the hundreds (thousands?) of documents I kindly

> provided him over the past 13 years, he can do what he wishes with them,

> though I hope he'll put them in a library and not auction them off to

> collectors and dealers, like his hero. I have nothing to hide, and all said

> and done will probably lose money on Jack Kerouac till the day I die.

> My wife isn't too happy about that fact, but I care deeply about the

> man and his work, what he stood for, the spirituality he boosted in this

> country at a time when materialism had just about won the day, and the gift

> of truth he gave us all.

> Jan cared about that too, and I'll go the distance for that lady.

> At least I'm doing my best.

> Adios, guys! As for Mr. Sampas, I'm still here, ready and waiting,

> to assist you in getting the Kerouac archive into a library.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:22:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

I don't know anything about the issue, and I'm known for saying what I feel.

I think you make a good appeal. When it plays out, we'll see the Johnsons and

the Shits.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:37:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

The City Lights edition (the one in the post) is out of print. The new

edition is available through Waterrow (waterrow@aol.com).

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:08:59 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

Or through your favorite local bookseller. But you might have to make

them look hard. It wasn't showing on the store's computer but it was in

the most recent print "Books in Print" when I ordered it today.

James

The new

> edition is available through Waterrow (waterrow@aol.com).

> Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:14:20 +0000

Reply-To: morocco@walrus.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gregory Severance <morocco@WALRUS.COM>

Subject: Elegiac Feelings

Comments: cc: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu

The following poem is part of a web poem which can be found at:

http://www.walrus.com/~morocco/bl/elegiac.html

This was composed last year.

--------------------

backyard in brooklyn

by Gregory Severance

oooh oooh

brooklyn sirens squint

against what brilliance of tree on Flatbush Avenue

history murmuring

sirens wailing wailing sirens sirens wailing

steel pistols resting on a pillow

owning nature the buildings

sweet lonely fallen on RR track

would deny loveliness in dream moment

botanical soundings clucking asked me

who sees your bodies

this dream in a circle

loveliness in mortal form

I travelled the entire length of every

kindness past

staggering from levee to levee

always denying inspired roads

Kesey's in Oregon the war the war

is reborn

cherry bare breasted woman statue

wept with tears without tears

I sobbed my sins

to La Guardia birds unfamiliar sirens wailing

who cringes during discourse of spirit

the great in heart horrible instead

peace and acceptance

a phantom skeleton

meaty baby

dream moment

military tyranny arms

murmuring history

world is released

green with leaves

from flesh forms

laden with white blossoms

prayers completed the breasts

I pursued delusion consciously

some gathering on every road the state of kansas pavements galore

I lay trembling

war-fear ended

* + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + *

Gregory Severance

morocco@walrus.com

http://www.walrus.com/~morocco/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Leaving Texas, fourth day of July."

-- Grateful Dead ["Jack Straw"]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"... a gallon of desperate whiskey a day it took

ye to look that America in its disembodied eye"

-- Gregory Corso ["Elegiac Feelings American"]

* + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + *

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:01:04 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Levi's Question

Dear Gerald,

It well may be that it is just wonderful that you are fighting the war

that you do. It seems that everyone is acknowledging at least that we

all are already beneficiaries of the way you have forced hands to give

up more to the public. I don't doubt your sincerity and your belief in

your cause. If the will was forged I would support you as much as I

could to go on and to win the case. I do not wish to add disheartening

burdens to your shoulders.

BTW, I do not concur with some opinions that have been expressed, that

the courts have the power to determine the truth. I have had lots of

court experience on various drug related charges, have dealt with quite

a few attorneys. Only one of them insisted that he only wanted to know

the truth. Let's say he didn't want to be told that what he was given to

present was not the truth. He had to be very stupid to believe the lies

my witnesses were telling him. Every other lawyer that I had was

insisting that you have to fight fire with fire and the other side lies,

forcing us to, that you have to appear believable to win and to not even

hint at the truth if it doesn't appear believable to the limited rules

of evidence of the judge or jury.

What is believable to judges and juries has to do more with how they

interpret artificially recreated situations, that often exaggerate minor

matters and rule out of court factors that are essential to understand

what was really going on. Some doubts may never clear up, even though

the courts are forced to make up their minds one way or another. Should

the courts not find sufficient evidence for forgery, from having read

carefully your material and your opponents' material, I would still

believe there is a possibility that the courts did not uncover the

truth.

I still have some nagging questions though about whether your opponents

are given to do things that you would not. I asked you this morning to

clarify your answer to Levi's question. Since you didn't answer, I went

back over it to see if can tell better what you said. The only

conclusion that I can come to is that you are suggesting that Levi

wanted you to release material to the public, but that you couldn't do

it for legal reasons. Are you saying that Levi wanted you to do

something illegal, that you explained to him that you couldn't do it

because it was illegal, and that he still wanted you to do it? I just

don't believe that of Levi.

Unless you explain it better to me, this is the conclusion that I am

forced to live with. And if that is the case then I must conclude that

you are likely yourself to do things that are no more right than what

you tell us to expect from your opponents.

I hope that you will show me where I am wrong here. I also realize that

there may be other reasons that make it difficult for you to explain

further. There may also be quite sound legal reasons that prevent your

opponents from entering any discussion before the case is over. I will

try to keep an open mind. I do not feel that the universe owes me

explanations and revelations about anyone's shortcomings or mistakes.

Regardless of what the outcome might be, I admire your courage,

perseverance, and sincere efforts to educate us to your perspective. I

have also enjoyed your passionate style of advocacy. Thanks for your

readable, enlightening posts, even if I wish there was less personal

acrimony expressed. Any worthy cause would be very lucky to have you as

an advocate.

leon

This morning's post:

> I continue to pay reluctant close attention to this very tasteless, rude

> incessant intrusion that we have been bombarded with lately. At the same

> time I am also grateful for the information that broadens my

> understanding of matters beat, writing, publishing, authoring, and life

> at the end of the twentieth century. Not just in the USA. I am

> fascinated by the energy, intelligence and devotion, seemingly to the

> cause. What cause, a cause that I haven't completely bought yet. Even

> forgetting the objections raised by Rod and others. Comes now Levi's

> entry, and what's this? Do I see a stumble? Do you consider this an

> adequate response? A legal right is sufficient reason for you and is

> there a total absence of need for moral reason(s) when it comes to your

> actions? Am I overlooking something here?

> leon

>

> .-

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:28:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Weinberg's corrections

To followers of the Beat List Kerouac Estate battles:

Mr. Weinberg asks for the following corrections:

1) he works out of Sudbury, Mass, not Fitchburg

2) Richard Marcel did purchase Kerouac items. My clumsy prose (excuse me)

made it sound as if he were one of the dealers who refused to buy any

because the prices were too high. There were definitely dealers who claimed

the latter, like Peter Howard of Serendipity in Berkeley.

3) Mr. Weinberg only revealed to me the names of customers who had

consented to have their names made public. He wants it known that he

respects the privacy of his customers if they require privacy.

4) Mr. Weinberg completed the sale of BOOK OF DREAMS to a private collector.

The sale of MEXICO CITY BLUES to a private collector was almost complete

when Mr. Sampas decided to raise the price. To the best of Mr. Weinberg's

knowledge, the collector then apparently bought the MCB notebooks directly

from Mr. Sampas so that Mr. Weinberg's commission would not have to be paid,

thus lowering the overall price.

5) Mr. Weinberg was not fired. He states that he quit working for Mr.

Sampas because the job was becoming too stressful. As reasons for this

problem, he cites Mr. Sampas continually raising the price of Kerouac items

(thus making it difficult for Mr. Weinberg to keep on good terms with his

clients) and Mr. Sampas pulling out of a deal with the Bancroft Library in

Berkeley that he (Mr. Weinberg) had worked on for several months. Mr.

Weinberg apparently had the Bancroft ready to come across with a million

dollars for the entire Kerouac archive in 1991, but at some point late in

the negotiations, Mr. Sampas ceased cooperating.

I find this last tidbit of literary history fascinating, since Jan

Kerouac later attempted to get her father's archive into the very same

library, not knowing that Jeffrey Weinberg had tried to talk Mr. Sampas into

placing it there three years earlier. Jan liked the "feel" of the

Bancroft--marble and old wood and beautiful glass display cases--and she

especially liked librarian Tony Bliss, who with his balding head, moustache,

round spectacles, and gentle voice was like a father figure to her (though

he looked nothing like Jack!).

I apologize for these errors. My only excuse is having had to pour

out ten thousand words on this subject in ten days, which did not always

give me time to resort to years of notes in literally hundreds of

folders--but to rely on that most fallible of allies, one's memory.

There was only one Memory Babe, folks, and we know that even HE got

it wrong once in a while.

I would like to add, again, that I hold no grudge against Mr.

Weinberg. Whenever I get too high and mighty in my artistic morality, my

wife, who is a businessperson, reminds me that it is the job of

businesspeople to make money for their clients. What impresses me now is

the sincerity of Mr. Weinberg in wishing to end the piecemeal selling-off of

Kerouac items, and to clear a way for bigger and better Kerouac scholarship

in the future.

No one is asking Mr. Sampas (or Mr. Nicosia) (or Mr. or Ms. Anyone)

to stop making money. Those of us who care about Kerouac scholarship are

simply asking him to trade off a part of those windfall profits in the

interests of posterity. Too much to ask?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:28:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Mr. Jerry Cimino's four page soliloquy made me feel that the last ten days

of pouring out my heart here, and taking flak from every direction, was

worth it to have touched one person that deeply.

Mr. Cimino understands what is going on. Jan Kerouac was not trying to make

a million dollars when she knew she had months, or at most a few more years,

to live. Gerald Nicosia is not trying to run the world; he'd like to get

back to his book on the healing of Vietnam veterans, called HOME TO WAR, and

also get back to his family and the demands of his two-year-old daughter Wu

Ji. No one is asking to crucify John Sampas.

We're asking for what should have been done years ago: the permanent

preservation and scholarly access to Jack Kerouac's magnificent literary

archive, the life's work of a true American literary genius.

And maybe a little justice for the Kerouac family.

Mr. Cimino knows that is not such a terrible thing. And he knows that Jan

Kerouac and I asked quietly at first, with no results, so our voices kept

rising. Maybe they rose too loud. And maybe it's time to lower them again.

But the BIG QUESTION IS: Will they EVER be heard???

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 02:42:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: A break from the Kerouac controversy....

Hey Beat Folks--

I have just finished 'One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest' and have heard

Kessey referred to as Beat on the list so I figure this falls under the

jurisdiction of this list. I loved that book! Great. Fantastic. Excellent

read.

What do you folks think of it..and..is it a good indicator of Kessey's

other work? (as I am unfamiliar this being his forst I have read)

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 06:03:25 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Dean M. Palmer wrote:

>

> Hey Beat Folks--

> I have just finished 'One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest' and have heard

> Kessey referred to as Beat on the list so I figure this falls under the

> jurisdiction of this list. I loved that book! Great. Fantastic. Excellent

> read.

> What do you folks think of it..and..is it a good indicator of Kessey's

> other work? (as I am unfamiliar this being his forst I have read)

>

> Dean Palmer

>

> /\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

> /\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

> man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

> hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

> some damn fool who

> wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

> Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

I loved Cuckoo's nest but had trouble following it through the fogs at

time. i enjoyed the movie too. Once in the Hospital with five nurses

trying to calm me I suddenly (not intentionally) broke out of it and

asked the nurses if I was doing better than Jack?? Recently i saw the

story on the KEY-Z webpage (or a story) about the origin of the narrator

Chief Bromden. I immediately found the book in the piles and began

reading it again. Suddenly with this insight and the insight of

multiple hospitalizations in less intrusive but sometimes parallel

mental units, the novel is a joy to read again.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:16:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac question

Dear Gerry:

Hoping you won't mind a non-Sampas question. I'm putting together a walking

tour of Kerouac's New York and wanted to include a statement concerning

Jack's arrest after the Kammerer murder. Would it be correct to say that

Kerouac was arrested for "failing to report a crime" or that he was

arrested?/held "as a material witness". Which do you think is right? Anyone

else is welcome to comment too.

Thanks,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:08:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

well said Jerry/

i have appreciated the time and care people have takin trying to

explain the history and the confusions on the estate matter, I even

appreciated the blows of email from rinaldo, after those, either

complicated or nasty postings, those desperate one liners were a

break.. I have thought the vindictiveness and namecalling shown was

what was better left to the latter stages of alcohlism. but i am a tea

totler. I thought it was interesting when some one said they were glad

jk was dead, so not to see this. maybe it is some sort of anger

connected to jk giving so much in literature and vision and then killing

himself with alcohol. I have always felt that he had a long drawn out

type of death, where his drunkeness and bitterness and helplessness

created a series of deaths.

I have no personal knowledge but the assault of fame on his

sensibilities seemed to wound him so.

I wish that at the heart of the debate was just money, not the scraps

and heart of jacks' legacy. I wish that poor jan was treated by her

fathers fans with more dignanty and that fellow in the trailer living at

his neighbors had a shake of luck.

what i have heard of stella and her family was that they knew a

different jack than neal did. I would quess if the "will" was forged a

adjustment of ownership would happen but i wish i could see any window

for righting wrongs.

The real prisoner is the manuscripts. The real villian is probably the

money. But once a promise to a dying woman is made it makes compromise

hard to reach, making a new promise to jack might make it easier.

I was totally screwed cheated, threatened out of my last job by two sick

do nothings, and i saw them destroy things that i had worked years on

and i honestly felt hatred and wished for justice. well a year later

when i asked my mother what she wanted for her birthday , she said to

forgive them. now she didn't mean hang out with bad guys or to excuse

them but to forgive them. I was aghast, they had even insulted her

during the fracas. But i am finding ways to do it. I resented losing

the money, usually gave a lot to charity. so now i volunteer a little

more and am looking up charities in the various states unclaimed

property accounts. I examine the obstacles between me and freedom and

start kicking away at them.

p

I had not heard the Edie K had died, when did that happen?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:27:12 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To: <336F0FFD.40F3@midusa.net>

ah always blown away by cuckoos nest alrigt. and the movie is a peice of

pure genius as well (i thin thta kesey said hes never seen it tho) one

thhing that really exposed how kesey wrote was the critcal edition of

cuckoos nest as well as _kesey_ which i think is avail from www.key-z.net

or something like that. explains how early drafts and sections (black boys

coming for me and all) written on lsd in hosp ( ithink) and has sketches

of the various characers to help him get handle of where they're going,

etc. one touch i always loved was the neal/randle connection... randle

patrick mcmurphy = R.P.M. (rotations per minute) = fastest man alive

(neal)??

anyway yr rigt grand piece o lit.

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:01:08 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> ah always blown away by cuckoos nest alrigt. and the movie is a peice of

> pure genius as well (i thin thta kesey said hes never seen it tho) one

> thhing that really exposed how kesey wrote was the critcal edition of

> cuckoos nest as well as _kesey_ which i think is avail from www.key-z.net

> or something like that. explains how early drafts and sections (black boys

> coming for me and all) written on lsd in hosp ( ithink) and has sketches

> of the various characers to help him get handle of where they're going,

> etc. one touch i always loved was the neal/randle connection... randle

> patrick mcmurphy = R.P.M. (rotations per minute) = fastest man alive

> (neal)??

> anyway yr rigt grand piece o lit.

> derek

from what I read at Key-Z, he had no narrator and then had an

hallucination of this Indian and thought ... "now i have a narrator" or

something to that effect. .. . :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:23:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

In a message dated 97-05-05 23:31:35 EDT, you write:

<< know that someone may have asked this before but after an unsuccessful

attempt to locate the Last of the Moccasins in a bookstore, I was

wondering if it is still in print, and can it be ordered from any

bookstore?

Diane Carter

>>

Dear Diane and Fellow Beat-L members:

You can order Charlie Plymell's book "Last of the Moccasins" from me here a t

Water Row Books.

The paper edition is $12.00

and we have hardcover copies signed by Charles Plymell for $20.00

Mention the Beat-L and shipping is free..

MC/Visa accepted. Satisfaction guaranteed....

Thanks -

Jeffrey Weinberg (Charlie's cousin),

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:12:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Levi's Question

In-Reply-To: <336EAD00.60CD@cruzio.com> from "Leon Tabory" at May 5,

97 09:01:04 pm

Leon wrote:

> I still have some nagging questions though about whether your opponents

> are given to do things that you would not. I asked you this morning to

> clarify your answer to Levi's question. Since you didn't answer, I went

> back over it to see if can tell better what you said. The only

> conclusion that I can come to is that you are suggesting that Levi

> wanted you to release material to the public, but that you couldn't do

> it for legal reasons. Are you saying that Levi wanted you to do

> something illegal, that you explained to him that you couldn't do it

> because it was illegal, and that he still wanted you to do it? I just

> don't believe that of Levi.

I think I can clear this confusion up -- when Gerry and I referred

to "legal reasons" in our posts we were not talking in terms of

whether an act was illegal or not, but whether an act would

be legally unwise or not -- specifically, that by letting me

publish Jan's excerpt Gerry for free would be exposing himself to

criticism that he was being lax with Jan's estate, which could be

used against him by others claiming rights to the estate.

I hope we can put aside that whole side-issue, anyway. As for the

deeper issues, I remain agnostic.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:24:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Using the Brain God Gave You

Lay awake last nite thinking about Anstee's advice that "it's too

complex--don't try to sort it out--don't try to judge." It reminded me of

what the hawks used to say during the Vietnam War: "Don't try to understand

the war in Vietnam--it's wrong to protest it--the guys in Washington [read:

Mr. Sampas & Co.] know what they're doing--just wait and see."

I.e., wait and see while another 10,000 guys get killed and maimed

this month [wait and see while yet more Kerouac pieces get sold off]. But

those of us in the Antiwar Movement used our COMMON SENSE, which told us

that killing people was wrong, whether or not we knew and understood all the

inner secrets of the thing; and I urge you to use COMMON SENSE in this affair.

My common sense says that Jack Kerouac's archives should be

preserved and made accessible now ["Bring the troops home--NOW!"] You don't

have to listen to mine--why should you?--but, please, LISTEN TO YOUR OWN.

You don't need to go on a wild goose chase for some supposed cache of secret

documents that Mr. Anstee would like to send you on--some supposed PENTAGON

PAPERS of the Kerouac Estate Fight, which exists nowhere that I know

of--except perhaps in the desk drawer where Mr. Sampas keeps his financial

records--and there's no way any of you are ever going to get to that.

THE POINT OF THIS, by the way, is not that selling off a writer's

papers is as bad as making war--IT'S NOT, BY A LONG SHOT. The point is: you

can often use your common sense to tell you things the experts can't.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:47:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

As far Kesey goes, my favorite is SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION. I don't think this

is a book for everyone but I love the language he uses, the story, everything.

It's a whopper too, you can re-read it every year! Set in the logging towns of

the pacific northwest, it makes great use of the landscape in descriptive

detail as head union hauncho, Hank Stamper, does not give in to the big

corporate badguys! Give it a try, not nearly as commercial as CUCKOO'S NEST

(which I also loved).

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:17:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

> one touch i always loved was the neal/randle connection... randle

>patrick mcmurphy = R.P.M. (rotations per minute) = fastest man alive

>(neal)??

Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

seems like it....

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 13:58:18 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

In-Reply-To: <19970506.151712.18022.0.dean_palmer@juno.com>

ive heard the story both ways that kesey did know cassady and that rpm is

based on him, and ive also heard something along the lines that kesey haad

finished the book at cassady went to him, showing up at his house

unannounced after the book was published. maybe someone closer to neal

(leon, charles, etc) or kesey could give us some details. how 'bout it

gang? any one wanna be the definitive word?

yrs

derek

On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dean M. Palmer wrote:

>

> > one touch i always loved was the neal/randle connection... randle

> >patrick mcmurphy = R.P.M. (rotations per minute) = fastest man alive

> >(neal)??

>

> Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

> seems like it....

> Dean Palmer

>

> /\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

> /\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

> man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

> hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

> some damn fool who

> wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

> Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 16:01:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: QAA27720 on bay (hop 0), Tue, 6 May 1997 16:01:54 -0400 (EDT)

From: Randi Jaclyn Friedman <rfiedma@GROVE.UFL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chimes at Midnight

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To: <33588527.768B@midusa.net>

please will someone tell me how to get off this list server. It is messing

up my entire inbox messages. There are just too many emails for me to read

. So ,if you are in charge of this please help me get out of this

RAndi

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:02:20 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> ive heard the story both ways that kesey did know cassady and that rpm is

> based on him, and ive also heard something along the lines that kesey haad

> finished the book at cassady went to him, showing up at his house

> unannounced after the book was published. maybe someone closer to neal

> (leon, charles, etc) or kesey could give us some details. how 'bout it

> gang? any one wanna be the definitive word?

> yrs

> derek

>

> On Tue, 6 May 1997, Dean M. Palmer wrote:

>

> >

> > > one touch i always loved was the neal/randle connection... randle

> > >patrick mcmurphy = R.P.M. (rotations per minute) = fastest man alive

> > >(neal)??

> >

> > Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

> > seems like it....

> > Dean Palmer

> >

> > /\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

> > /\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

> > man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

> > hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

> > some damn fool who

> > wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

> > Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

> >

maybe Cassady was based on RPM ??? :)

dbr

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:26:16 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: b

just i came in the computer room,

i'm the guy who switch the light,

now i can write,

just i came in the computer room,

i'm the guy who switch the light,

now i can write,

"Derek A. Beaulieu"

Patricia Elliott

Leon Tabory

James Stauffer

RACE ---

now i must to switch off

the vedova's crab is

can caught me,

nighttime save me,

open yes open eyes

beat

beetle

beet

bee

be

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:26:13 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: One Flew OVER the nest.

be beat!,

reading the newspaper,

fernanda pivano 80 years old today,

the lay in the terrific foto...

talks

'bout the beat:

""The evening that I have met Cassidy, the protagonist of "On The Road"

by Jack Kerouac, after any very amusing passed hour together,

he accompanied me in hotel and wanted to climb, normal era.

But I explained him that I slept only always. Cassidy looked at me

lunatic like ditches: "you don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't fuck.

But because have you wanted to know me?" - fernanda pivano then writes:

"All my friends beat lived for the unemployed person of the subsidies,

200& or 300$ to the month that they allowed him to survive.

They drank much tea.""

one,

two,

three,

tutti giu' per terra!

*a not competent beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:26:14 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Ken Kesey

be beat! be beat!! be beat!!!

after "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" wrote another

wonderful book i read in 70's 'bout hobo lifes, it's

a wonder, but i missed a bunch of things...

* the beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:49:34 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

be beat! check this site, please,

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/ginsberg/ginsberg/ginsberg.html

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:33:23 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: One@cruzio.com, Two@cruzio.com, Three@cruzio.com,

Four@cruzio.com, Flew@cruzio.com, OVER@cruzio.com, the@cruzio.com,

nest@cruzio.com

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> ive heard the story both ways that kesey did know cassady and that rpm is

> based on him, and ive also heard something along the lines that kesey haad

> finished the book at cassady went to him, showing up at his house

> unannounced after the book was published. maybe someone closer to neal

> (leon, charles, etc) or kesey could give us some details. how 'bout it

> gang? any one wanna be the definitive word?

> yrs

> derek

Not a definitive word. I do recall though having driven with Neal to

Kesey's place some time before the book was out. Neal brought me a copy

when it first came out to look at. I recall Neal telling me about how

Ken was writing while high on acid working at the VA hospital in Palo

Alto. I don't recall dates, but it was when I still lived at the Cassady

(your spelling is correct) home. To the best of my recollection, and I

think I would have remembered, Neal did not think it was based on him.

Leon

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:55:06 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "Reppublica Italiano"@cruzio.com

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> be beat! check this site, please,

>

> http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/ginsberg/ginsberg/ginsberg.html

>

> rinaldo.

> .-

Another great picture! Interesting how much you can understand in a

foreign language when you know what they are talking about.

What's happening to the Italian language?:

> 35 MINUTI DI VIDEO IN WINDOW MOTION

Ciao amici

Leon

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:27:11 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 May 1997 20:00:32 -0400 from

<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Let me say that I think the estate battle is certainly an appropriate

topic for the list. Anyone who doesn't want to read about it can delete

those posts. I'm not sure, however, that anything that anyone has to

say on the list will make any difference as far as the outcome goes. I

haven't seen the will and wouldn't know whether or not it was authentic

if I did. If the parties involved can't come to some agreement--and it

certainly looks like they never will--then it is up to the courts to

decide. We can all have our opinions but they aren't going to decide

anything.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 17:32:21 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> Let me say that I think the estate battle is certainly an appropriate

> topic for the list. Anyone who doesn't want to read about it can delete those

posts.

I may have mistyped if it seemed that i was suggesting that the estate

questions were inappropriate. it would have been easy to read that into

my comments. i meant something else -- i think.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 17:40:40 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: [Fwd: Re: Ginsberg]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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thought this might seem of interest to those on the list.

dbr

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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:11:31 GMT

Reply-To: The Bob Dylan Discussion List <HWY61-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

Sender: The Bob Dylan Discussion List <HWY61-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>

From: Ness908 <ness908@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Subject: Re: Ginsberg

To: HWY61-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU

Since we are on the subject of condeming people for their wrong doings as

far as the Christian belief goes. Let me start by saying, yes Allen

Ginsberg was gay from birth, he had very little control over it and felt

guilty and spent two or three years trying to disown his desires. He grew

up with a psycopathic mother and had a lot going on in his mind. After he

figured out his life, he began to express it's hard bearing on his keeping

it all in. He wrote thousands of amazing poems and with the help of other

Beatniks, he changed the world from their blinding propaganda of the

fifties into a very liberal and anti war ideal of the sixties. Without

Ginsberg, Bob Dylan wouldn't have had the courage to Think Twice about the

way anything was. Don't condem Dylan for respecting a great man who

brought us to the realization that the The Times Are A Changin', even

before Dylan himself did. Don't judge this great man for his so called "

Evil Earnigs For Young Boys" don't get me wrong, I don't think that it's

right by any means to crave people of the same sex, but I do know that it

happens and until we really understand it, no one should be going around

saying that there's no excuse for it.

If you want to think that evil is evil for no reason and use the Bible to

make up for your hatered then go right ahead, but the only great leason

that I get out of the Bible is that you should love those who you don't

understand and pray for their sins. I'm only sixteen but I feel like I've

got a hell of a better understanding about this than most of you do.

Feel free to E Mail me about this or any Dylan related stuff, I'm glad to

be tested in the area of Dylan Trivia.

Thanks, Nathan

--------------770F2C706431--

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:47:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jake Barnes is beat (was "More on dope")

In a message dated 97-05-04 19:54:52 EDT, you write:

<< the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet

the beat is a beet >>

I don't think there is anything rong wit doooope, do you?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:47:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: ORIGINAL vs COPY

Just an aside, what would happen if copies of all of Kerouac's papers end up

in a Library, and the originals are sold off to the highest buyer (or

whoever).

Is it enough to just have the words-- complete, that are accessible to the

public? DO the originals have to be available?

This is a philosophical question.

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:39:27 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING"@cruzio.com

Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> Let me say that I think the estate battle is certainly an appropriate

> topic for the list. Anyone who doesn't want to read about it can delete

> those posts. I'm not sure, however, that anything that anyone has to

> say on the list will make any difference as far as the outcome goes. I

> haven't seen the will and wouldn't know whether or not it was authentic

> if I did. If the parties involved can't come to some agreement--and it

> certainly looks like they never will--then it is up to the courts to

> decide. We can all have our opinions but they aren't going to decide

> anything.

> .-

In the end the court of public opinion may have its own conclusions,

regardless of the outcome in a court of law. It might be very

interesting after all is said and done to ask for the opinions of the

BEAT-L people, what percentage concurs, how many think the will was

forged, etc..

Leon

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:14:30 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 May 1997 09:16:58 -0400 from <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Good question, Bill. I always thought he was held as "a material witness." Ma

ybe I got it from the newspaper clips. If Gerry, doesn't have an answer I'll b

e glad to do some digging.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:28:08 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 May 1997 10:24:31 -0700 from

<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Ah c'mon Gerry, the estate battle is VERY important but you can't compare it to

the Vietnam War and whatever Rod is doing, he's not getting anybody killed. Ta

lk about ad hominem arguments!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:32:41 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 May 1997 10:24:31 -0700 from

<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

My apologies, Gerry. Once again I jumped the gun. Reading your post a

second time, I see that we agree after all.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:01:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

At 08:14 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Good question, Bill. I always thought he was held as "a material witness." Ma

>ybe I got it from the newspaper clips. If Gerry, doesn't have an answer I'll b

>e glad to do some digging.

>

>Wasn't he held for aiding and abetting a felon because he helped get rid of

the knife? Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:55:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

At 08:28 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah c'mon Gerry, the estate battle is VERY important but you can't compare it to

>the Vietnam War and whatever Rod is doing, he's not getting anybody killed. Ta

>lk about ad hominem arguments!

>

>

Didn't you read Nicosia's post.

He began this by writing this

"It reminded me of what the hawks used to say during the Vietnam War"

Notice he said "it reminded me?" Not "it is just like".

He ended with this to make sure people would understand (it's called

telegraphing)

"THE POINT OF THIS, by the way, is not that selling off a writer's

papers is as bad as making war--IT'S NOT, BY A LONG SHOT."

Have you ever heard of this thing called an anology or a metaphor?

BTW, I am too young to remember the Vietnam War and that controversy, but

off the top of my head it seems that the rationale and well meaning of those

who did fight the vietnam war (the hawk position)is much much much

infinitely higher than some guy trying to use his aunt's inheritance to make

a buck fast off something that really does belong to the readers of the world.

The Hawks at least were trying to protect people from great evil. Even

Ginsberg in his old age admitted he was wrong about the Viet Cong and didn't

know they would be so bad.

remember all the world is a stage.

(is Shakespeare seriously comparing the thousands of square miles of the

earth to the few meters that is in a theater's stage?)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:56:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

At 08:32 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:

>My apologies, Gerry. Once again I jumped the gun. Reading your post a

>second time, I see that we agree after all.

>

>

Boom,

and I didn't read this post before I wrote my reply

barn doors open wide

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:37:45 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

My favorite too, but you've got it wrong. The union guys are the bad

guys, Hank Stamper is an independant, non union, mostly family operator

who refuses to bow to union pressure. But great characters and

language. Probably one of the reasons I spent a lot of years working in

the woods myself. The movie made of the book with Paul Newman is less

satisfactory. Kesey wrote two damn good novels with "Notion" and

"Cuckoo". The things that have come later have been mostly

disappointing to me, but I haven't read Sailor's Song.

J Stauffer

MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

>

> As far Kesey goes, my favorite is SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION. . . . Set in the

logging towns of

> the pacific northwest, it makes great use of the landscape in descriptive

> detail as head union hauncho, Hank Stamper, does not give in to the big

> corporate badguys!

> Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:43:15 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Dean,

I am not sure exactly when Cassidy first started coming around Kesey but

it was during the period that Kesey was living at Perry Lane near

Stanford, working at the VA Hospital in Menlo Park and writing the book.

Whether Cuckoo was already a work in progress of not, I don't know, but

it is hard not to see at least some Cassidy in Randle tho I think Randle

is more a creation of Kesey's using bits from Neal than the Cassidy

characters Kerouac did.

J Stauffer

Dean M. Palmer wrote: . .

>

> Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

> seems like it....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:50:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leslie Diane Hurst <n9442280@SCOOTER.CC.WWU.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac's arrest

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To: <336FEAD3.582A@pacbell.net>

In Ann Charter's compilation of JK's selected letters, she comments that

is was as a material witness that he was arrested.

Leslie:)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:58:58 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's arrest

But now that we all have been made aware that Anne Charters is only a

paid stooge of John Sampas we need to look pretty skeptically at this.

I think John Sampas done it.

James

Leslie Diane Hurst wrote:

>

> In Ann Charter's compilation of JK's selected letters, she comments that

> is was as a material witness that he was arrested.

> Leslie:)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:09:16 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "Levi's Question"@cruzio.com

>

> I think I can clear this confusion up -- when Gerry and I referred

> to "legal reasons" in our posts we were not talking in terms of

> whether an act was illegal or not, but whether an act would

> be legally unwise or not -- specifically, that by letting me

> publish Jan's excerpt Gerry for free would be exposing himself to

> criticism that he was being lax with Jan's estate, which could be

> used against him by others claiming rights to the estate.

On reading a subsequent post Gery got that explanation across to me

also. Still the fact remains that he is condemning his opponents who

also use their judgment as to what to do with what is theirs to do with.

I could say that this is only an excuse. That in fact he would have

followed the wishes that Jan epxressed, and especially since he would

not have profitted from carrying out her clearly stated wishes for the

public good, it is not likely that such action would provide cause in a

court to remove him. But he chose the action that was denying the public

access, and kept the material under his private control. That is what he

accuses his opponents of doing. These were not legal considerations,

they were judgment calls, justifying his preferences.

This is the only place where I see reason not to get carried away with

his self righteousness. I see much to admire in him as a writer, as a

devoted advocate, but I am not sure he is not carrying his flag a bit

too high, hitting others over their heads with it.

That does not excuse the uglier actions of the legal heirs, and in my

mind it is not unlikely that they might have forged the will. Luckily

for me I do not have to make consequential decisions with the limited

knowledge that I have. Neither do I see excuses for Jack Kerouac's

treatment of Jan, some of his friends, including Neal in San Quentin or

later when he should have been forthcoming with some financial

assistance for one example.The five dollars to Neal who used his meagwer

resources to travel to New York to see him, was really an insult.

So, if we look at the lives of heroic figures in their spheres of

action, we find quite a bit of dirt clinging to theit feet on other

walks on other roads. Whatever it is that we think, or Gerry wants

everybody to think, Jack could have very easily left his literary

properties to public egencies, if that is what he wanted to do with it.

Like Jan wanted to do. But he didn't.

>

> I hope we can put aside that whole side-issue, anyway. As for the

> deeper issues, I remain agnostic.

>

It is the deeper issues only that I am very much interested in. Gery has

been a big help, even if I am not convinced that his motives are pure

while his opponents are evil.

I am quite willing to leave things alone.

BTW Levi, you are reminding me that I meant to write to you. I wanted to

tell you how highly John Cassady speaks of you. I didn't bring your name

up to him. In telling me how he felt about things that are going on, he

made it a point to tell me with great enthusiasm, how highly he thinks

of you. I am repeating myself. You might also be interested to hear that

his son looked very, very well. He told me that he feels that his

responsibility to the legacy of his grandpa is "just awesome". John is

a very good father, and it is just very gratifying that it is turning

out that way. Hopefully Kathy will also realize one day that her dad did

not waste his life away. That is she will find it in her heart to get

over her anger and frustration at his absence when she needed him. She

was in a more vulnerable age and experienced strong resentments from her

mom also in a more impressionable time in her life. I hope she will

heal.

Best

Dito

Leon

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:27:19 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To: <336FEC43.4891@pacbell.net>

hey gang

according to _the holy goof: a biography of neal cassady_ p.119:

"having finished _cuckoo's nest_ in the spring of 1961, kesey

journeyed to oregon to help his brother start a creamery. he returned to

palo alto in the summer of 1962, just months after his novel had been

published to handsome praise just about everywhere. pulling up the old

cottage on penny lane, he and faye descried an antic figure on thier font

lawn - a man with an athletic build, maybe in his late thrirties, dressed

in a t-shirt and chinos and bobbing up and down as if he were a boxer,

batting great blue flirtatious eyes and jabbering, jabbering. "yes, yes,

yes, why hello chief..."

the meeting was clearing ordained.kesey had dreamed cassady first,

had imagined him into being - with the usual distortions of dreamwork of

course - asrandle patrick mcmurphy. neal had discovered that book and felt

summoned by its author."

well, i guess that settles it then, right?

yrs

derek

On Tue, 6 May 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

>

> Dean,

>

> I am not sure exactly when Cassidy first started coming around Kesey but

> it was during the period that Kesey was living at Perry Lane near

> Stanford, working at the VA Hospital in Menlo Park and writing the book.

> Whether Cuckoo was already a work in progress of not, I don't know, but

> it is hard not to see at least some Cassidy in Randle tho I think Randle

> is more a creation of Kesey's using bits from Neal than the Cassidy

> characters Kerouac did.

> J Stauffer

>

> Dean M. Palmer wrote: . .

> >

> > Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

> > seems like it....

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:30:57 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

I yield to both of you gentleman. Superior access to more recent

secondary sources. Randle is apparently only a forshadowing of the real

fastestmanalive.

J Stauffer

> >

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:34:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Visions of Cody

I just wanted to tell you all how much i highly recommend this book!

It took me a while to get through some of the parts and i did -GASP- even

skip some of the conversation parts [sorry, Jack], and Tim Hunt's

_Kerouac's Crooked Road_ helped me immensely.

The more i loook over this book and read it, the more it becomes my

favorite Kerouac novel. I dont think i would recommend it to newcomers to

Kerouac though.

so anyone want to start a conversation on this novel?

matt

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:18:48 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: One@cruzio.com, Two@cruzio.com, Three@cruzio.com,

Four@cruzio.com, Flew@cruzio.com, OVER@cruzio.com, the@cruzio.com,

nest@cruzio.com

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> hey gang

> according to _the holy goof: a biography of neal cassady_ p.119:

> "having finished _cuckoo's nest_ in the spring of 1961, kesey

> journeyed to oregon to help his brother start a creamery. he returned to

> palo alto in the summer of 1962, just months after his novel had been

> published to handsome praise just about everywhere. pulling up the old

> cottage on penny lane, he and faye descried an antic figure on thier font

> lawn - a man with an athletic build, maybe in his late thrirties, dressed

> in a t-shirt and chinos and bobbing up and down as if he were a boxer,

> batting great blue flirtatious eyes and jabbering, jabbering. "yes, yes,

> yes, why hello chief..."

> the meeting was clearing ordained.kesey had dreamed cassady first,

> had imagined him into being - with the usual distortions of dreamwork of

> course - asrandle patrick mcmurphy. neal had discovered that book and felt

> summoned by its author."

>

> well, i guess that settles it then, right?

> yrs

> derek

>

> On Tue, 6 May 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

>

> >

> > Dean,

> >

> > I am not sure exactly when Cassidy first started coming around Kesey but

> > it was during the period that Kesey was living at Perry Lane near

> > Stanford, working at the VA Hospital in Menlo Park and writing the book.

> > Whether Cuckoo was already a work in progress of not, I don't know, but

> > it is hard not to see at least some Cassidy in Randle tho I think Randle

> > is more a creation of Kesey's using bits from Neal than the Cassidy

> > characters Kerouac did.

> > J Stauffer

> >

> > Dean M. Palmer wrote: . .

> > >

> > > Did Kessey know Cassady at the time? Was Randle based on Cassady? It

> > > seems like it....

> >

> .-

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> hey gang

> according to _the holy goof: a biography of neal cassady_ p.119:

> "having finished _cuckoo's nest_ in the spring of 1961, kesey

> journeyed to oregon to help his brother start a creamery. he returned to

> palo alto in the summer of 1962, just months after his novel had been

> published to handsome praise just about everywhere. pulling up the old

> cottage on penny lane, he and faye descried an antic figure on thier font

> lawn - a man with an athletic build, maybe in his late thrirties, dressed

> in a t-shirt and chinos and bobbing up and down as if he were a boxer,

> batting great blue flirtatious eyes and jabbering, jabbering. "yes, yes,

> yes, why hello chief..."

> the meeting was clearing ordained.kesey had dreamed cassady first,

> had imagined him into being - with the usual distortions of dreamwork of

> course - asrandle patrick mcmurphy. neal had discovered that book and felt

> summoned by its author."

>

> well, i guess that settles it then, right?

> yrs

> derek

>

Checking my memory score card here:

Memory cleared as far as Neal Not thinking he was a model for anyone in

the book. I am beginning furthermore to recall being told that the model

for Murphy was a real live patient, salesman possibly, am not sure if it

was Kesey or Neal who told me about that, but one of them definitely did

tell me about that patient.

A bit more searching scholarship is indicated for me about the exact

dates here.

My memory is very vivid of the time Neal brought me the copy of the book

- just out. No doubts about that.

No doubts about having driven Neal to Anne's place in Palo Alto and

Perry Lane before that.

No doubts about the story of writing in the Veterans' hospital under

acid.

So wait a minute. Does the biographer claim that Kesey wrote the book

before living in Palo Alto and working in the VA hospital? That is not

settled. More like unsettling. My memories are playing some huge tricks

on me then. It has never been that masterful in deceiving me. I also

had conversations with the nurse who thought she was the model for nurse

Ratchett. She was married to a psychiatrist, Dr. Giese, and she also

told me numerous times about Kesey' writing while at work at the

hospital. I remember

vaguely a conversation about her with Kesey. What gives here. If the

biographer claims that Kesey finished the book before working at the

Palo Alto Veterans' Hospital, then I would like to check his sources.

Leon

Leon

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 05:36:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject: Kesey/Cassady

Leon,

James Stauffer has already cautioned us about secondary sources, but the way

Jay Stevens in Storming Heaven dates these events is that Kesey moves to

Perry Lane in the fall of 1958 and in mid-summer 1960 he starts working at

the Veterans Hosp. He starts writing Cuckoo's Nest around September 1960

and finishes it in June 1961. The book is published in Feb. 1962 and he

meets Cassady during the summer of 1962.

However, I note that Kesey has already started hanging out in North Beach by

1960 so it's possible he's heard about Cassady, he certainly was hip to the

beats. (Stevens p.224-225).

I can't find my copy of Plummer's Holy Goof to check his chronology, (I

think it's out on a date with Yardley's Ring Lardner biography which I'm

also trying to find right now. Personally I don't think those two should be

dating).

But Leon, please keep probing and posting the memory.

Regards,

Andrew Lampert

cosmic@clark.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 04:40:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.94.970507002836.29050A-100000@rs1.tcs.tulane.edu>

On Wed, 7 May 1997, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

> I just wanted to tell you all how much i highly recommend this book!

>

> The more i loook over this book and read it, the more it becomes my

> favorite Kerouac novel. I dont think i would recommend it to newcomers to

> Kerouac though.

>

> so anyone want to start a conversation on this novel?

I'm game. It is my favorite Kerouac as well! I think the first 100 pages

or so are his finest writing. An intense lyricism that just keeps going

and going, you can't believe that he can possibly keep it up for another

sentence and yet he does, page after page.

There's an almost mythological feel to it; even, and especially,

regarding ordinary things. I'll never be able to look at a red brick wall

again the same way.

His prose in this book almost makes me want to write it out on a music

staff complete with indications of tempo and dynamics:

"...in any case it was the great serious American poolhall night {now

gradually slower and quieter} and Cody arrived on the scene bearing

his original and sepulchral mind with him {now gradually faster and

louder} to make the poolhall the headquarters of the vast excitement

of the early Denver days of his life {now suddenly quieter and slower}

becoming after awhile, a permanent musing figure before the green

velvet of table number one...." (and so on--p.49)

or long descneding lines like:

hail the poor whiteface cows

drowsing in their evening stockyard fattening meadows

with its call of faroff trains

and almost Iowa-like

valley

green

softness

(p.353)

Some of the transcribed conversations are sometimes hard to get thru, but

it's an interesting device; it keeps reappearing later in the book and

you wonder if the tape ever stopped rolling.....

*******

Attenti al filosofo!

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

Time is the purest and cheapest form of doom.

*******

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 05:43:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bahman Eslamboly <lawguru@LAWGURU.COM>

Subject: Use our free 450+ Mailing List Subscription Manager

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=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:04:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

VOC is the purest formof American prose/poetry since Whitman. Kerouac's

prose is suffused with sunset imagery and darkness and dust. Notebook

jottings made into novel form? This book is definetley his best...

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:00:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

At 08:14 PM 5/6/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Good question, Bill. I always thought he was held as "a material witness." Ma

>ybe I got it from the newspaper clips. If Gerry, doesn't have an answer I'll b

>e glad to do some digging.

I believe in _VOD_ K states it was for being an "a material

witness" due to the fact he was an "accessory after the fact."

Not sure how much poetic license is involved in the book

account?

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:02:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Re: For Michael Buchenroth

In-Reply-To: <970501201336_1456326214@emout07.mail.aol.com>

On Thu, 1 May 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

I feel honored to have the opportunity to share with a truly great

American writer and poet! I have your book, "Last of the Mocassins"

(LOM-using your acronym) and in fact I just finished reading it for the

2nd time. I bought it from WaterRow earlier this spring. AND after

reading your autobiography, seeing "Betty's" photo, etc., etc., LOM read

so much more emotionally charged like those electrons in the EPR paradox!

As I read LOM -inside my brain- I had emotional electrons beat-lining

faster than light in opposite directions from each other rapping and

tapping up against both sides of my skull and according to Eistein that

ain't supposed ta happen! Who knows exactly what it made me feel like!

But most certainly I "felt" your book! LOM remains such an emotionally

charged, revved up account of incredibly interesting, truly American

experiences! -such a rich, historical, powerful read! Damn!

Thanks Charley!

> COWS

>

> Look at cow faces

> cattlemen cruising the stockyards

> the thing is

> cows don't care

> cows are queer

> I saw a cow on muscle beach

>

> I once found a cow magazine

> with a cover of cows black and white

> hooked up to iron milkers

>

> Cow poetry in it

>

> If you drink milk before going

> to bed you'll wake up with a

> bovine faced hangover

>

> Huncke stole a cow

> took it to the city

> on his back

>

> Charles Plymell:

> Michael is building a website for me. Thank you. Nice birthday present.

> http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

>

Michael L. Buchenroth

mike@buchenroth.com

www.buchenroth.com

To view

Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

go to

www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:23:26 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Lawrence Ferlinghetti punctuation.

Michael scrive:

>I heard there was absolutely no punctuation in the original OTR.

be beat! buon giorno amici beats, per favore

someone can find ONE punctuation in the

works poetry written by Lawrence Ferlinghetti?

i searchin' for but my effort was frustrated,

if Jack Kerouac wrote On The Road w/out punct

(on a computer paper, by hand, of course) there's

another beat who negleted the punct &

he is LAWRENCE FERLIGHETTI,

rinaldo.

* coro: un, due, tre! tutti giu' per terra! *

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 09:37:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Lisa Bralts <Wordydiva@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In a message dated 97-05-07 02:12:47 EDT, you write:

<< so anyone want to start a conversation on this novel? >>

It's off topic, but what the hell -- I named my son Cody (he's 5 now) for

that book. I love it, It's my absolute fave. A few years ago I lent (stupid!

I rue the day!!) out a bunch of Kerouac books/bios, VOC being one of them, to

the boyfriend of a co-worker... they broke up and he moved to England. I have

a feeling I'll find those books in a thrift shop someday...

... there's a part in that book where he describes Neal/Cody as an

adolescent/kid... the way he described the sweater and his unkemptness and

the way he was holding a children's toy (accordion?) that he found by the

side of the road... the imagery packed an enormous wallop at the time (I was

in college).

Lisa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:42:27 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Lawrence Ferlinghetti punctuation.

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> Michael scrive:

> >I heard there was absolutely no punctuation in the original OTR.

>

> be beat! buon giorno amici beats, per favore

> someone can find ONE punctuation in the

> works poetry written by Lawrence Ferlinghetti?

>

> i searchin' for but my effort was frustrated,

>

> if Jack Kerouac wrote On The Road w/out punct

> (on a computer paper, by hand, of course) there's

> another beat who negleted the punct &

> he is LAWRENCE FERLIGHETTI,

>

> rinaldo.

>

> * coro: un, due, tre! tutti giu' per terra! *

all i have of LF is the Starting Out SF one. i can't find it handy to

see if it had punc or not. i hope i didn't lose it.

i enjoyed learning more about Kesey yesterday. Hope to learn some more

about Visions of Cody today as previous posts suggested.

Right now I'm reading the Desolation Angels. Curious in the First Part

why ain't there a #99 ? I imagine that the experts have a story or two

to explain it.

Also i'm eager to learn more about Lawrence Ferlinghetti's connections

in this whole thing Beat. i've heard a few here and there but the

stories of the folks that were there and done that are always most

intriguing.

I'm beginning to get a map in the brain that God gave me of some of the

connections. I was a relative virgin to this whole stuff when i came

on, i'd only read On The Road and a bunch of WSB kind of stuff and a bit

of Ginsberg (but my mind had not been on the poems there - rather the

poetess reading AG to moi). My favorite character in OTR was Old Bull

Lee and perhaps that is what directed me towards more of him. but i

found much of his writing impossible to read in conventional manners.

well, i guess that is not really a very coherent post. incoherence

happens to the worst of us.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:07:44 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: your mail

In-Reply-To: <337010B8.1ABB@cruzio.com> from "Leon Tabory" at May 6,

97 10:18:48 pm

Leon wrote:

> on me then. It has never been that masterful in deceiving me. I also

> had conversations with the nurse who thought she was the model for nurse

> Ratchett. She was married to a psychiatrist, Dr. Giese, and she also

Now *this* sounds like an interesting story!!! Can you tell it?

About this novel -- to me this is a rare example ("Deliverance"

also comes to mind) of a great book that was also turned into a great

movie. As a kid I saw the movie -- later when I read the book I was at

first disappointed that it didn't seem to have as much psychological

depth and sharp characterization as the movie -- but then the book

went so much further with prose experimentation and symbolism

(Jesus, etc.) that I finally decided both the film and the book

were classics in their own ways.

I also remember that around the time the film came out there

was a huge and nasty public battle between Kesey and the

filmmakers that reminds me of our present situation. Anybody

else remember when Kesey vs. Forman raged? I remember one great

quote of Kesey's about the filmmakers -- "I know why they they

left the Combine out of the movie -- they are the Combine."

But since it was clearly a great movie, I remember the fight

leaving the world at large simply confused. Definitely

sounds familiar!

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 07:00:12 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: Kesey/Cassady@cruzio.com

Cosmic Baseball Association wrote:

>

Thank you Andrew for shedding some light upon these vaguely visible

shadows in the folds of old memories. The chronology sounds quite

plausible. I guess memory is not that tricky. It is quite possible that

a book published several months earlier was considered "just out" even

"by the fastest man on earth". I guess we may all be correct here.

Just because I didn't know about the book at first, doesn't mean it had

not been published yet. Neal first heard of Kesey from his close friend

Bradley who was a student at Stanford at the time, and editor of a

student poetry publication there. He met Bradley when he started to

visit Anne Marie weekends in her Palo Alto apartment. Bradley would have

been likely to know about Kesey's book publication and writing. What I

remember most vividly are Bradley's enthusiasm about Kesey's Perry Lane

parties. I do recall that Neal's first interest in Kesey was about

crashing those parties. He was also amazed at the uncanny replication of

the earlier Columbia literary student pioneering lifestyle innovations

experience; the progression from Marijuana to LSD, the close knit

friendships, and most of all the parties near to Anne Marie's weekend

hideaway pad. Well maybe not quite hideaway. When I see Anne I will ask

her what she can add here.

Bits and pieces of the legendary stories of Neal could have been grafted

upon RPM with or without conscious knoledge by Kesey, even if he didn't

know him yet at the time face to face.

Leon

Cosmic Baseball Association wrote:

> Leon,

>

> James Stauffer has already cautioned us about secondary sources, but the way

> Jay Stevens in Storming Heaven dates these events is that Kesey moves to

> Perry Lane in the fall of 1958 and in mid-summer 1960 he starts working at

> the Veterans Hosp. He starts writing Cuckoo's Nest around September 1960

> and finishes it in June 1961. The book is published in Feb. 1962 and he

> meets Cassady during the summer of 1962.

>

> However, I note that Kesey has already started hanging out in North Beach by

> 1960 so it's possible he's heard about Cassady, he certainly was hip to the

> beats. (Stevens p.224-225).

>

> I can't find my copy of Plummer's Holy Goof to check his chronology, (I

> think it's out on a date with Yardley's Ring Lardner biography which I'm

> also trying to find right now. Personally I don't think those two should be

> dating).

>

> But Leon, please keep probing and posting the memory.

>

> Regards,

> Andrew Lampert

> cosmic@clark.net

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:20:42 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: kesey & flicks

In-Reply-To: <199705071407.HAA27441@netcom.netcom.com>

levi & co

havent heard anything about the kesey forman battle over cockoos nest

movie. are the letters published? where would i look?

i had thought that kesey was happy with the movie (learn something

everyday i suppose)

yrs

derek

(ps one more good book also good movie? how 'bout M*A*S*H*?)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:23:56 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

I will see Kesey this friday and saturday as he waddles the bus through Ohio. I

will try and ask him about Cassady and Randall Patrick M. Hold tight. I'm sure

Neal was some influence on that charcter.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:28:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: One, Two, Three, Four Flew OVER the nest

>From The Kerouac Quarterly:

tentative release date for a new "definitive" Kerouac bio:

The Beat Of Life by Ellis Amburn

It may be released this Fall...Mr. Amburn informs me that the length is

approx. 150,000 words long and is exhaustive. New information, fresh

documents, and Amburn's experience as being Jack's editor in the 1960's

should lead to a great book!

Vol. 1, No. 2 of The Kerouac Quarterly will be available

shortly...Thanks, Paul....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:44:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: AARON CHIDAKEL/JMC2000 <chidake1@JEFLIN.TJU.EDU>

Subject: a question for you

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970507152800.0068f87c@pop.pipeline.com>

I'm relatively new to this list and although I have yet to add anything

to the circulating letters, I enjoy going through the seemingly endless

mail which piles in my folder. It seems as though between Gerry,

Charlie, et. al., there are a decent number of folks here on-line who are

quite familiar with the "beats" on a personal as well as professional

level.

I'm wondering if some of the living "beat" writers, such as Ferlinghetti,

Kesey, etc. know about this list. If so, why do they not drop us a line

once in a while? Seems like it would be an excellent opportunity for us to

hear about some of this stuff first-hand, and for them to stay active in

the beat literary discussion circuit.

Curious.

-AC

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:55:37 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Old Bull Gaines

One of the things that Kerouac says Old Bull used to lecture about is

Mallarme'. Is there anywhere that Burroughs has written about Mallarme'

that someone could direct me towards?

A french prof at Augustana read my poem Yahtzee and said it was

something french coup de das or somesuch. ... mentioned Mallarme'.

perhaps the lectures were received unconsciously already, but i'd be

intrigued to see anything in print.

thanks,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:12:07 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: beat-italiano (cut-up)

be beat!

Chetro & Co.

"Burroughs individuo' la tecnica del cut-up vedendo

lavorare l'amico pittore Gysin. questa tecnica

consiste nel prendere dei brani di prosa, tagliarli

e rimontarli in maniera casuale.

Questi locali su trovavano nel cuore della citta',

erano le cantine e dei seminterrati definiti dalla

stampa cave esistenzialiste, credo pero' che solo

alcuni che le frequentavano conoscevano Sartre.

In queste sale non si trovavano piu' le orchestre

classiche del liscio, ma dei complessi che suonavano

repertorio jazz.

Guardavano con molta piu' attenzione, pero', alla

beat generation americana. il beat negli Usa era

un movimento letterario colto, segnato dalla rivolta

dello stile. La beat generation era un movimento

letterario urbano che attraverso la poesia aveva

completamente abbattuto il confine tra la parola

scritta e parola cantata. Nelle loro metriche i poeti

di questo movimento creavano un'intensa tensione

tipica del bebop.

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:32:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

Timothy,

Even though you corrected yourself on Bill Gargen's comment regarding The

Kerouac Estate Battle versus the Viet Nam War, I'm kinda glad it slipped

through.

I was sitting outdoors with a laptop when I read:

>(Is Shakespeare seriously comparing the thousands of square miles of the

earth to

>the few meters that is in a theatre's stage?)

At that point I hooted out loud and a dozen people and a few ducks turned to

see what I was laughing at.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:53:56 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

In-Reply-To: <199705070155.SAA19670@hsc.usc.edu>

>remember all the world is a stage.

>

>(is Shakespeare seriously comparing the thousands of square miles of the

>earth to the few meters that is in a theater's stage?)

Yeah! And not only that, on those few meters we are all walking shadows

with just a brief hour to strut our stuff, which is full of sound and fury,

signifying nothing. (Sounds like Electronic-mail, which is just a few

centimeters in lot.) But since when has seeriousness ever stood in the way

of a Holy Goof? It didn't stand in Shakespeare's way, who also saw life as

a midsummer night's dream (Is Bottom Beat? Or just a jackass? After all,

he talked as if he had been to a great feast of languages and had come home

just with the scraps.), not to mention a few thousand other things, all of

them serious, poets being like madmen lunatics and lovers, all compact.

Which surely includes Beats and their Barristers.

Was the question serious or just unholy goofery? (Or am I just one of

those sitting ducks staring in the direction of Jerry Cimino's laughter?)

The older I get the more serious metaphors become, I guess would be my

straight answer. I am not convinced that metaphor is merely another

version of the virtual. I'm on no Shakespeare List, but I couldn't tell

you the number of times in the past few weeks I have thought all the world

was a stage...all, sigifying monkeys or butterlifes or Aguirre: Wrath of

God. If I were a lawyer, I could use my personal defense strategy to

justify Gerry Nicosia's analogy between Beat Estate Wars and Vietnam War:

Hyperbole is valid figure of speech. A form of metaphor, if not the best.

Is this guy serious? Hey, just a rhetorical question. // John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 14:22:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

If I were a lawyer, I could use my personal defense strategy to

>justify Gerry Nicosia's analogy between Beat Estate Wars and Vietnam War:

>Hyperbole is valid figure of speech. A form of metaphor, if not the best.

>Is this guy serious? Hey, just a rhetorical question. // John M.

>

Seriously though I think you could argue that litigation has taken the place

of combat for a lot of people, at least in this 'developed' world. And I'll

bet the bodycount from overstressed litigants isn't that far removed from

those in military conflicts. There are more suicides than murders, even in

the US. There seems to be an unending urge for people to BEAT up on each

other, using whatever the society allows them to use.

Nick

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:41:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 May 1997 04:40:43 -0500 from

<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Yass! Yass!, right on target, Jeff.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:51:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

Thanks Phil: Mainly I want to find out whether it's fair to say he was

"arrested" or was it something different? He lost his freedom for awhile in

jail, but I want to be accurate.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:56:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

Bill:

Thanks for the help, I'm not certain when I'm answering directly to a person

on this damn computer and when I'm answering to all 200 list members, don't

want to repeat time and again. My main concern is whether it's fair to say

he was "arrested" since I've seen it mentioned that he was "arrested as a

material witness" or was he "held" as a material witness. I know that it

really amounts to the same thing but I want to be accurate (thanks to years

with Allen, it pays to get it right the first time).

See you soon,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:18:59 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Emilio Vedova, ventian tracks.

be beat!

map of musei in italy:

http://www.museionline.it/english/index.htm

http://www.museionline.it/english/geo/index.htm

address of venetian artists:

http://www.art-diary.com/Art-Diary-Internet/ITALY/venezia.html

Emilio Vedova "home-page":

http://csi2000.csi.it/~laval/rivoli/autori/vedova.html

Emilio Vedova at Biennale as member of jury

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/biennale/biennale/biennale.html

rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:00:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

At 04:56 PM 5/7/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Bill:

>Thanks for the help, I'm not certain when I'm answering directly to a person

>on this damn computer and when I'm answering to all 200 list members, don't

>want to repeat time and again. My main concern is whether it's fair to say

>he was "arrested" since I've seen it mentioned that he was "arrested as a

>material witness" or was he "held" as a material witness. I know that it

>really amounts to the same thing but I want to be accurate (thanks to years

>with Allen, it pays to get it right the first time).

>See you soon,

>Bill Morgan

>

>He was definitely arrested because there was a bail set and posted by Edie

Parker. I believe he was arrested as a material witness originally because

he supposedly had knowledge of the crime. Then they must have "spilled the

beans" and told about Jack helping to get rid of the knife by putting it

down the sewer. If Lucien had been charged with first degree murder Jack

would have been tried as an accessory after the fact because he helped him

get rid of the knife. Can anyone elaborate further? Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:10:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ann Charters Interview

I have been told by a number of people to do my own research on the Estate

Battle. Part of my doing that is asking questions and advice from people on

this List. One of the things I was told I should become familiar with is the

Ann Charters Interview in the Beat Scene.

I have asked TWICE in the last four days if someone would post a summary of

that Interview. So far the only person who has referenced that article was

Gerry Nicosia himself, quoting a portion that substantiated his position.

I can only assume from this lack of response that there is nothing of

consequence in this article that is opposed to Gerry's position.

I am still waiting if that is not the case.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:12:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Cast of Characters

In my ignorance I guess I was under the mistaken impression that John Sampas

was one of Stella's brothers, a guy pehaps in his 60-70's. Now, after

reading a recent post it appears he is a nephew of Stella, I'm assuming

somebody in his 30's-50's. Could someone clarify, please?

Also, who is Jim Sampas? I saw on the Rykodisc he is listed as the Producer

of the CD. How is he related to John?

Another interesting thing I discovered while doing my research. Apparently

George Tobia, John Sampas' lawyer, is also Hunter S. Thompson's lawyer.

Anybody know how that came about? On the Rykodisc it says he was present

when Hunter was recording "Ode to Jack" at 5 in the morning! Christ, I hope

he wasn't on billable time!

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:15:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jack's Intentions

Leon wrote,

>Whatever it is that we think, or Gerry wants everybody to think, Jack could

have

>very easily left his literary properties to public agencies, if that is what

he wanted

>to do with it. Like Jan wanted to do. But he didn't.

Leon,

I must take issue with this line of argument.

Your point is well taken than Jack "could have" done something different than

he did and obviously he didn't take the necessary safeguards. But you seem

to indicate the disposition of his archives would not have mattered to him.

I reject that position.

>From what I understand Kerouac kept scrupulous notes and records and had

everything annotated and categorized. He apparently talked about "someday"

when the historians were going to look at his stuff. We all know he

constantly wrote about the "Duluoz Legend" which of course was the story of

his life from beginning to end, everything documented, everything real.

Because Jack died unexpectedly at a relatively young age he had not yet made

arrangements to get everything into a University Libarary or whatever.

Indeed, most of his books were out of print when he died so who would expect

anybody may have even wanted his archive in 1969?

In addition, let's not forget Jack was a dysfunctional alcoholic, possibly

incapable of really planning those aspects of his life out to the detail

required.

To say he wouldn't have cared because he didn't do these things does not

obviate his intent or desire. I doubt this can have any bearing on the legel

wrangling, but I'm convinced Jack would not have wanted his stuff sold off

piecemeal.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:15:24 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: this sunday

i ain't had time to keep uptodate reading my beat-l digests

so i don't know if this has been mentioned yet.

channel 4 are showing a documentary this sunday (may 11),

i can't remember the exact time (it may actually be about 0:10

which would make it monday morning) but it's about the life &

times of allen ginsberg.

those in the uk look out for it!

cheers all

joe

newcastle, uk

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:18:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: For Michael Buchenroth

In a message dated 97-05-07 15:49:49 EDT, you write:

<< On Thu, 1 May 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

I feel honored to have the opportunity to share with a truly great

American writer and poet! I have your book, "Last of the Mocassins"

(LOM-using your acronym) and in fact I just finished reading it for the

2nd time. I bought it from WaterRow earlier this spring. >>

Correction: I didn't write the message, I was quoting it.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:18:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: The Big Lie

I was on an airplane the other day thumbing through various magazines because

the battery in my laptop was depleted (horrors!).

I was pleasantly surprised when I came across (not literally) an article in

Self Magazine that concerned itself with the repetition of a falsehood and

how something when repeated often enough, even if it is not true, takes on

the air of being true simply because it has been heard so many times.

The article had to do with "False Memory Syndrome" and quoted a study that

was pubished in Psychological Science where an experiment was done with 225

Kent State students that showed how one false suggestion led subjects to

recall a non-event about 35% of the time. When the suggestion was repeated

the incidence of the false memory increased. After three mentions the

subjects reported false memories on average of 55% of the time! The

conclusion was raising the notion again and again wore down the subject's

resistance to the point where they believed what they were told.

Despite the fact this article did not mention Adolph Hitler or Nazi's in

general this got me to thinking about Gerry Nicosia's claims that certain

people have been repeating "lies" over and over and over. Gerry's point, of

course, is that he can not defend himself against unsubstantiated claims that

say he is only in it for the money and glory etc. As I recall, this has been

asserted a number of times, but no one has offered so much as one iota of

evidence that it is true. Gerry contends the assertion alone hurts his

position, though, as some people assume it must be true or other people

wouldn't be saying it.

Now I don't like to use the word "lie". I think it is way too inflamatory.

I much prefer the word "discrepancy" or some other euphemism. Calling your

opponent a "liar" forces him/her into an intractible position. They often

feel they can't back off on their claims at all or they'll be admitting

they're a "liar".

I much prefer language that can allow someone to adjust their position while

not losing face. "Perhaps you mispoke" or "Perhaps I didn't understand your

point" are nice sanitary ways of saying "You don't know what the hell you're

talking about" or "You're so full of shit your eyes are brown".

I'm putting everybody on notice regarding this Estate debate: I'm going to

make it my business to assure that anybody who makes an assertion gives at

least a plausible explanation of why they're saying what they're saying.

This situation with Jack's archives is just too important to get lost in

hyperbole so there'll be no more free rides as far as I'm concerned. If you

make a claim against someone you'd better be prepared to back it up.

Otherwise you're going to hear from me that I think there is a "discrepancy"

in your argument.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:25:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a question for you

In a message dated 97-05-07 16:28:18 EDT, you write:

<< It seems as though between Gerry,

Charlie, et. al., there are a decent number of folks here on-line who are

quite familiar with the "beats" on a personal as well as professional

level. >>

Larry F. came over to the flat one day with Ginsberg. I was urging LF to

publishl the First Third and was asking Neal to read it to him. That was in

63. I had met Neal in 62. I also urged LF to publish Bukowski even though he

wasn't at that time considered a beat at least by me. LF earlier had turned

down the manuscript Naked Lunch for publication. At least that's what I

heard.

They may be lurking or LF may be sending Rinaldo his poetry to cut up, who

knows. I'm sure they have spies out.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:33:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Hey, Anstee, wait for the bell!

In-Reply-To: <199705020406.VAA10779@germany.it.earthlink.net>

RA,

Who will benefit WHEN the Kerouac collections are being cared for in a

library that has a preservation and conservation lab? Everyone who has

enjoyed reading the Beats, everyone who is a student, teacher, scholar of

Beat Lit.

It is apparent that people are slowly coming to the realization that these

collections must be preserved. The collections are national treasures. JK

is a national treasure, as is Jan.

Some people may believe that ownership, regardless of how that ownership

was established, is all that is necesary to wheel and deal with items from

the collection. This kind of profitering is wrong. That's why is is

important that collectors understand that any items that are sold, any

items are purchased, are going to come back and haunt the people involved.

Private collections of material by authors such as JK by people with no

immediate connection to JK--collections made posible simply because of

wealth is the personification of greed.

It's really no different that tearing pages out of library books. Everyone,

except the person with the torn-out page, is the loser.

A few years ago, when I was involved with designing some posters for

libraries--posters about mutilating books--I was contacted by a university

and asked what I felt a just penalty would be for a student caught tearing

pages out oaf a books at the university library. I told them the student

should be expelled. Even if it was a first offender they asked Absolutely

I replied.

jo grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:44:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

Bill Gargan:

Could you explain why sometimes the response to a message arrives before the

message? For instance your Visions of Cody response <<Yass! Yass!, right

on target, Jeff.>> seems to have appeared before whatever Jeff has said.

BTW Visions of Cody is one my favorites when I read it more than 30 years

ago.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:58:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: dawn m zarubnicky <fedex@UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: New York, NY

In-Reply-To: <970506091658_777075611@emout18.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 6 May 1997, William Morgan wrote:

> Dear Gerry:

> Hoping you won't mind a non-Sampas question. I'm putting together a walking

> tour of Kerouac's New York and wanted to include a statement concerning

Bill...can you give us some more info on the tour.. With what organization?

I used to take walking tours of the city (non-beat related) when I lived

in New York through the New School...What are areas are you planning on

including....

Speaking of NY and somewhat beat related...Since my last visit in

January, I've been thinking a lot about the Times Square gentrification/

renovation project. I realize that financially this is a good thing for

NYC and the residents of the area, but part of me mourns the loss of a

New York institution and is saddened that the area will take on a 57th

street appearance...guess this is just the part of me that is resistant

to change and feels yet another unique characteristic of New York

will be lost forever....

Can anyone recommend a book that chronicals the history of Times Square

through photos? same with East Village?? or perhaps a stellar book on

the general History of New York???

Thanks..Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:45:56 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: this sunday

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 May 1997 18:15:24 EDT from

<100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Please let us know more about this film if you see it.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:11:12 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

William Morgan wrote: . .

My main concern is whether it's fair to say

> he was "arrested" since I've seen it mentioned that he was "arrested as a

> material witness" or was he "held" as a material witness.

> Bill Morgan

And I understand from courtesy of a backchannel post that Jan Kerouac

sold the arrest warrant--so maybe we will never know.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:20:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.91.970507041019.540765679A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

YES!

and there are some sentences in the book that are just so beautiful and SO

true.

"Everything belongs to me because I'm poor."

sounds very reminiscent of Janis Joplin's

"Freedoms just another name for nothing left to lose."

and Bob Dylan's

"When you aint got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

then there's lines like:

"Whenever I realize that I'm going to die, I no longer can

understand the meaning of life" (373)

"All the Indians along the road wanted something from us. We wouldn't be

on the road if we had it." (380)

"I can see the hand of God. The future's in Fellaheen. At Actopan this

Biblical plateau begins--it's reached by the mountains of faith only. I

know that I will someday live in a land like this--I did long ago." (380)

Dman, i could quote three sentences on from every single page of this

fricking book.

And i dont even think any comments of mine regarding the book would be

worthy, i would much prefer just quoting Jack himself in all his Beauty.

"the dew is on the road again and as forever. . . I'm a fool, the new day

rises on the world and on my foolish life: I'm a fool, I loved the blue

dawnsover racetracks and made a bet Ioway was sweet like its name, my

heart went out to the lonely sounds in the misty springtime night of wild

sweet America in her powers, the wetness on the wire fence bugles me to

belief, I stood on sandpiles with an open soul, I not only accept lost

forever, I am made of loss--I am made of Cody, too..."

And then the final lines, even putting them down here would not so them

justice.

the book is just a wonderful show of how imaginattion and reality interact

to create a Reality more real than the "real world."

i'll leave my comments at that...but maybe more later...

matt

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:38:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

While I'm making coffee tonight, the name "Cody Pomeroy" bubbles up to

consciousness and for the first time I see the "pome" part of it like an

apple, or a poem (as in all sizes) and the "roy" like king. But if it's "ray"

instead, all the better to reach, search and shine or be an elegant dangerous

fast-moving fish.

Cody then recalls Wild Bill, master of self-reinvention and legendary

showman,

or the code that is the matrix of manifestation.

Jul

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:33:59 -500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: pranksters

Reuter's take on Speed 2...glad I missed it after all that. Was

anyone there?>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> Still Merry, Kesey's pranksters now tour by air

>

> From: C-reuters@clari.net (Reuter / Andrew Stern)

> Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:11:25 PDT

> Organization: Copyright 1997 by Reuters

> Newsgroups: clari.local.illinois.chicago, clari.living.top,

> clari.living.books

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> CHICAGO (Reuter) - Author and aging provocateur Ken Kesey

> sipped grapefruit juice and signed books for tie-dyed young

> readers Wednesday, many of whom were not born when Kesey's Merry

> Pranksters delivered an ``acid test'' to America.

> As Bob Dylan's lyric ``everybody must get stoned'' wailed

> from speakers aboard the latest incarnation of Kesey's famous,

> multicolored ``Further'' bus, other Pranksters signed autographs

> and sold stickers for $1 apiece.

> ``Let me tell you a Timothy Leary story,'' the white-haired,

> 61-year-old Kesey told those lined up clutching their dog-eared

> copies of Kesey's masterpiece, ``One Flew Over the Cuckoo's

> Nest.''

> But instead of a tale of mad partying from the drug-laced

> 1960s, Kesey recalled his death-bed conversation with the former

> Harvard professor and devotee of hallucinogenic drugs.

> ``I told him, 'Let's meet somewhere on Halloween.' Leary

> said, 'I'll meet you at Ginsberg's grave.' Now that's what I

> mean -- a sense of humor right to the end,'' Kesey said of

> Leary, who died last year.

> Staying with the death-bed theme, Kesey recalled with a

> chuckle the late Beat generation poet Allen Ginsberg's last

> words: ``Too-do-loo.''

> Kesey, 61, and his band flew in by airplane from recent

> bookstore appearances in San Francisco, not far from his

> farmhouse in Pleasant Hill, Oregon, where the original

> Pranksters' bus sits gathering rust. The ``new'' bus, a 1947

> model, was not fit for the long journey and was brought in by

> flatbed truck.

> The group was scheduled to arrive May 10 at Cleveland's Rock

> and Roll Hall of Fame, which will hold an exhibition devoted to

> the mid-60s era of psychedelic music, illustrated by the book

> Kesey was signing, ``I Want To Take You Higher: The Psychedelic

> Era 1965-1969.''

> Arriving with Kesey aboard the psychedelic bus were a few

> veterans of that earlier 1964 tour whose cross-country antics

> were chronicled in Tom Wolfe's masterpiece of ``new

> journalism,'' ``The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.'' The group

> spiked drinks with the drug LSD, painted gas stations, and

> recorded the crazy episodes.

> Kesey has been quoted as saying he now takes LSD only once a

> year, on Easter, to remain grounded.

> Among the Pranksters on this latest ``Grandfurther'' tour

> was Carolyn ``Mountain Girl'' Garcia, an ex-wife of the late

> Grateful Dead bandleader Jerry Garcia, to whom the assembled

> throng sang ``Happy Birthday'' before the now-grayed Garcia

> cheerfully told them to ``shut up.''

> Missing from Wednesday's scripted book-signing were many of

> the original Pranksters, including the wild man bus driver Neal

> Cassady who played prominent roles in Wolfe's book and in Jack

> Kerouac's earlier gem, ``On the Road.''

> ``He (Wolfe) had all the notes and all our tapes, so it was

> accurate. But it was an East Coast take on the West Coast, and

> the East Coast is always 30 years behind,'' Kesey said.

> Asked if they had pulled any pranks on this tour, Bill

> Burwell, a Kesey neighbor who raises native plants (not

> marijuana) and sells them to the federal government, could not

> recall any recent shenanigans.

> ``But on the way to San Francisco, we got a prank pulled on

> us,'' the burly Burwell said. ``The locals in Red Bluff

> (California) covered the bus with roses while we were asleep.''

> -=-=-

> Tell us what you think about the ClariNews! Send your comments

> to <<our comments email address>> <comments@clari.net>.

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:12:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Attention: Bill Gargan

Dear Bill:

I haven't received any Beat-L mail in over two days. Could you check what's

happening? Many thanks for your help!

Jeffrey

Water Row

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:15:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Re: For Michael Buchenroth

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970507085932.18621G-100000@user2.infinet.com>

I feel honored to have the opportunity to share with a truly great

American writer and poet! I have your book, "Last of the Mocassins"

(LOM-using your acronym) and in fact I just finished reading it for the

2nd time. I bought it from WaterRow earlier this spring. AND after

reading your autobiography, seeing "Betty's" photo, etc., etc., LOM read

so much more emotionally charged like those electrons in the EPR paradox!

As I read LOM -inside my brain- I had emotional electrons beat-lining

faster than light in opposite directions from each other rapping and

tapping up against both sides of my skull and according to Eistein that

ain't supposed ta happen! Who knows exactly what it made me feel like!

But most certainly I "felt" your book! LOM remains such an emotionally

charged, revved up account of incredibly interesting, truly American

experiences! -such a rich, historical, powerful read! Damn!

Thanks Charley!

-Michael Buchenroth

> > COWS

> >

> > Look at cow faces

> > cattlemen cruising the stockyards

> > the thing is

> > cows don't care

> > cows are queer

> > I saw a cow on muscle beach

> >

> > I once found a cow magazine

> > with a cover of cows black and white

> > hooked up to iron milkers

> >

> > Cow poetry in it

> >

> > If you drink milk before going

> > to bed you'll wake up with a

> > bovine faced hangover

> >

> > Huncke stole a cow

> > took it to the city

> > on his back

> >

> > Charles Plymell:

> > Michael is building a website for me. Thank you. Nice birthday present.

> > http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

> >

>

> Michael L. Buchenroth

> mike@buchenroth.com

> www.buchenroth.com

> To view

> Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

> go to

> www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

>

>

Michael L. Buchenroth

mike@buchenroth.com

www.buchenroth.com

To view

Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

go to

www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:30:55 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Attention: Bill Gargan

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 May 1997 11:12:52 -0400 from <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Jeff, all your mail was bouncing back to the list. Got a message that said you

weren't recognized at aol.com or something to that extent. I didn't delete you

but my colleague may have done so. Simply resubscribe. If you have a problem,

let me know.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:33:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Oops!

Sorry for posting that last note to Jeff to the list. I thought it was going d

irect...oh, well!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:48:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Jan Kerouac's Burial

May 8, 1997

For those who feel (as I do) that actual Kerouac's ought to have

something to say about things Kerouacian, there has been a major victory.

Paul Blake, Jr. complained to St. Louis Cemetery in Nashua that he

did not want his grandmother Gabrielle Kerouac's grave dug up, when there

was no need to do this. The plan had been to bury Jan's ashes on top of

Gabrielle, thereby saving the two remaining vacant spaces in the Kerouac

Family Plot for members of the Sampas family. (There is already one Sampas

buried there.)

The ownership of the plot may have to be determined by the courts,

but the cemetery now says they will direct Jan's ashes to be buried in one

of the empty spaces--allowing her to have a burial site of her own, which

God knows she deserves. At least this will allow people to leave

remembrances specifically for Jan, if they wish, without the confusion of

having Gabrielle and Jan in the same grave.

I've been sick and doing extra child-care duty, so haven't gotten to

the last two days' posts yet; for those who may be awaiting answers, please

be patient. Thanks.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:56:43 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "Jack's Intentions"@cruzio.com

Jerry Cimino wrote:

>

> Leon wrote,

>

> >Whatever it is that we think, or Gerry wants everybody to think, Jack could

> have

> >very easily left his literary properties to public agencies, if that is what

> he wanted

> >to do with it. Like Jan wanted to do. But he didn't.

>

> Leon,

>

> I must take issue with this line of argument.

>

> Your point is well taken than Jack "could have" done something different than

> he did and obviously he didn't take the necessary safeguards. But you seem

> to indicate the disposition of his archives would not have mattered to him.

> I reject that position.

>

> >From what I understand Kerouac kept scrupulous notes and records and had

> everything annotated and categorized. He apparently talked about "someday"

> when the historians were going to look at his stuff. We all know he

> constantly wrote about the "Duluoz Legend" which of course was the story of

> his life from beginning to end, everything documented, everything real.

>

> Because Jack died unexpectedly at a relatively young age he had not yet made

> arrangements to get everything into a University Libarary or whatever.

> Indeed, most of his books were out of print when he died so who would expect

> anybody may have even wanted his archive in 1969?

>

> In addition, let's not forget Jack was a dysfunctional alcoholic, possibly

> incapable of really planning those aspects of his life out to the detail

> required.

>

> To say he wouldn't have cared because he didn't do these things does not

> obviate his intent or desire. I doubt this can have any bearing on the legel

> wrangling, but I'm convinced Jack would not have wanted his stuff sold off

> piecemeal.

>

> Jerry Cimino

> Fog City

> .-

I can see your point Jerry, I don't think I said he didn't care. Maybe I

should have said if he wanted to do it badly enough, or if he was sober

enough enough of the time, or if he cared enough. I stand corrected.

Collecting all the iformation meticulously does not mean, however, that

he did not intend for his desifnated heirs to use their judgment how to

deal with it according to their need or interest. In one of the posts

someone indicated, I believe Gerry, that Jack told his nephew that he

could do with it whatever he wanted. My memory is vague on this.

BTW Jerry, I am another great admirer of your interest, comprehensive

and intelligent post on this issue. I enjoyed reading it and feel right

on about almost all of it.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:14:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a question for you

At 06:25 PM 5/7/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-07 16:28:18 EDT, you write:

>

><< It seems as though between Gerry,

> Charlie, et. al., there are a decent number of folks here on-line who are

> quite familiar with the "beats" on a personal as well as professional

> level. >>

>

>Larry F. came over to the flat one day with Ginsberg. I was urging LF to

>publishl the First Third and was asking Neal to read it to him. That was in

>63. I had met Neal in 62. I also urged LF to publish Bukowski even though he

>wasn't at that time considered a beat at least by me. LF earlier had turned

>down the manuscript Naked Lunch for publication. At least that's what I

>heard.

>They may be lurking or LF may be sending Rinaldo his poetry to cut up, who

>knows. I'm sure they have spies out.

>Charles Plymell

>

Ferlinghetti often claims he's a painter now, not a poet, and just as often

eschews any connection with the Beat Generation. He straddled the fence in

the Kerouac Estate Fight too. He got a couple of permissions out of John

Sampas (for SCRIPTURE OF THE GOLDEN ETERNITY--which, ironically, is in

public domain-- and for POMES ALL SIZES). But he also donated about $200 in

rare City Lights first editions for the benefit auction in Jan's behalf in

March, 1995. Ginsberg refused to send even one unsigned copy of HOWL.

(Sorry, Bill Morgan, but that's the truth.)

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:37:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Gibbons, Jeffrey x85139e1" <x85139@EXMAIL.USMA.ARMY.MIL>

Subject: Rolling Stone

I just wanted to let the list members know, if they haven't seen

already, that the newest issue of Rolling Stone has a rather lengthy

tribute to Allen. It includes a typical remembrance by the RS writer,

but also includes remembrances by some of the living "Beats" and artists

that he influenced. Some nice pics too.

Jeff

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:58:40 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: New York, NY

A couple of books on the Village, not strictly defined by your

request, but interesting nonetheless...

Fred McDarrah's GLORY DAYS IN GREENWICH VILLAGE, and an earlier THAT

TIME AND PLACE

Anatole Broyard's KAFKA WAS THE RAGE... not a picture book, but a

pretty lively personal account

And on the East Village, a book we have in our art library, a book

of photographs (and some text) and from a much later period (1970s

into 80s) than either the McDarrah and Broyard books is, ART AFTER

MIDNIGHT: THE EAST VILLAGE SCENE.

These are only to speak of some of those I've read, and not to mention

all the sociological/historical 1920s and 30s treatments, of which

there are some good ones, though I know you must be more focused on

the times contemporaneous with our Beat interests.

As far as those quasi or actual sociological treatments go, though,

the Jacob Riis book, HOW THE OTHER HALF LIVES, or Luc Sante's LOW

LIFE: THE LURES AND SNARES OF OLD NEW YORK can't be beat. Utterly

fascinating.

Clay Vaughan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:00:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: Intro; Wm S Burroughs

Hello all...

My name's zach and i've just added myself to the beat-l list. I've been

maintaining a Wm S Burroughs site on the web since about the middle of '95,

and am, obviously, a big fan of his work.

I'm not very versed in the work of the other beats, save for Ginsberg, who

started it all for me (it was the Miles biography of Ginsberg that i found

for a dollar at a garage sale, got me reading in this direction.) Kerouac

i've tried to read, but to no real success or enjoyment...

So i'm just wondering: what are some of your general opinions on the work

and life of WSB?

if anyone's interested, the site is going through a heavy restructuring

right now, but the url is

http://www.burroughs.net

thanks,

-z

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:00:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

In a message dated 97-05-06 23:44:13 EDT, you write:

<< Even

Ginsberg in his old age admitted he was wrong about the Viet Cong and didn't

know they would be so bad. >>

When did Ginsberg admit this?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:07:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: New York, NY

The walking tour is really to take the form of a book to be published this

summer by City Lights. It will contain 8 separate walking tours of the city

plus a miscellaneous section. Areas are: Columbia, Times Square, Rockefeller

Center, Chelsea, 2 Village tours and 2 East Village tours. I'm thinking

about physically doing one or two of the walking tours sometime soon if there

is any interest, just haven't figured out how to announce it.

There is a great history of Times Square book, I'll try to find the title,

but it's something like Times Square over the Years, or such.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:12:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject: Intro; Wm S Burroughs -Reply

Comments: To: junky@BURROUGHS.NET

Hey Zach,

I'm a Burroughs novice but thoroughly enjoy his work and his wicked

sense of humor. Just finished reading Cities of the Red Night. Very

cool! I too was "introduced" to Burroughs work via Ginsberg's poetry but

lean more toward the Kerouac side of Beat Gen. writings. There are some

very knowledgeable people on the list regarding Burroughs writing and

I'm sure you'll get a kick out of some of the threads that come up. If

you haven't already, check out Luke Kelly's Burroughs site and cut up

machine. (www.bigtable.com) Great sight!

Welcome to the list!

-Mark

MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>>> Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET> 05/08/97 03:00pm >>>

Hello all...

My name's zach and i've just added myself to the beat-l list. I've been

maintaining a Wm S Burroughs site on the web since about the middle of

'95,

and am, obviously, a big fan of his work.

I'm not very versed in the work of the other beats, save for Ginsberg,

who

started it all for me (it was the Miles biography of Ginsberg that i

found

for a dollar at a garage sale, got me reading in this direction.)

Kerouac

i've tried to read, but to no real success or enjoyment...

So i'm just wondering: what are some of your general opinions on the

work

and life of WSB?

if anyone's interested, the site is going through a heavy restructuring

right now, but the url is

http://www.burroughs.net

thanks,

-z

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:02:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Using the Brain God Gave You

At 04:00 PM 5/8/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-06 23:44:13 EDT, you write:

>

><< Even

> Ginsberg in his old age admitted he was wrong about the Viet Cong and didn't

> know they would be so bad. >>

>

>When did Ginsberg admit this?

>

This was mentioned in the NY Times Obituary. A similar disapointment about

the "mullahs" in Iran was noted.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:06:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: pranksters

In-Reply-To: <199705081420.AA285021243@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>

Hi! I just returned from seeing Kesey and the bus in Ann Arbor, and

thought I'd throw in a few comments. First, does someone who knows more

about kesey and this exhibit than I do know why they changed the spelling

of "Furthur" to "Further"? Just curious. I read the post of the article

from Chicago and had to laugh, because for once it seemd like a fairly

accurate assessment. There was something odd and surreal about Borders

employees wandering around in tie-dyed tees with "The Pranksters do Ann

Arbor" or something equally silly on the back. It was still pretty cool,

though...John Cassady bumped into me and I had resist the urge to grab him

and tell him how obssessed I am with his father :) Also, does anyone know

what's on the videos they're selling along with the tee shirts? Are they

copies of the video Tom Wolfe describes in The Electric Kool-Aid Acid

Test? Anyway, just wanted to encourage anyone who has the opportunity to

check out the bus and Kesey--sorry if I sound a little over eager and

completely unworldly, but for a 21 year old midwestern college student

events like these are the most excitement I'm likely to get for quite a

while!!

Tracy

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:15:18 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To: <970508003826_-1266179629@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Interesting (you should make coffee more often at night) recognition--and

credible, since Jack did spell <poem> as <pome> presumably to de-academize.

de-pietize, or de-mystify poetry (a la Monkey-Zen or Holy Goofery), but I

don't get the part about apple in relation to <pome>? // John M.

While I'm making coffee tonight, the name "Cody Pomeroy" bubbles up to

>consciousness and for the first time I see the "pome" part of it like an

>apple, or a poem (as in all sizes) and the "roy" like king. But if it's "ray"

>instead, all the better to reach, search and shine or be an elegant dangerous

>fast-moving fish.

>

>Cody then recalls Wild Bill, master of self-reinvention and legendary

>showman,

>or the code that is the matrix of manifestation.

>

>Jul

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:29:03 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To: <l03020902af980dc243bf@[141.224.144.84]>

easy

"pomme" is french for "apple". so you get "poem","king","apple",

"ray/shine" all thru one name.

excellent job, jul.

horay!

yrs

yass yass

derek

On Thu, 8 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

>

> Interesting (you should make coffee more often at night) recognition--and

> credible, since Jack did spell <poem> as <pome> presumably to de-academize.

> de-pietize, or de-mystify poetry (a la Monkey-Zen or Holy Goofery), but I

> don't get the part about apple in relation to <pome>? // John M.

>

> While I'm making coffee tonight, the name "Cody Pomeroy" bubbles up to

> >consciousness and for the first time I see the "pome" part of it like an

> >apple, or a poem (as in all sizes) and the "roy" like king. But if it's "ray"

> >instead, all the better to reach, search and shine or be an elegant dangerous

> >fast-moving fish.

> >

> >Cody then recalls Wild Bill, master of self-reinvention and legendary

> >showman,

> >or the code that is the matrix of manifestation.

> >

> >Jul

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:39:12 +0000

Reply-To: morocco@walrus.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gregory Severance <morocco@WALRUS.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Cody

> >While I'm making coffee tonight, the name "Cody Pomeroy" bubbles up to

> >consciousness and for the first time I see the "pome" part of it like an

> >apple, or a poem (as in all sizes) and the "roy" like king. But if it's "ray"

> >instead, all the better to reach, search and shine or be an elegant dangerous

> >fast-moving fish.

> >

> >Cody then recalls Wild Bill, master of self-reinvention and legendary

> >showman,

> >or the code that is the matrix of manifestation.

> >

> >Jul

> Interesting (you should make coffee more often at night) recognition--and

> credible, since Jack did spell <poem> as <pome> presumably to de-academize.

> de-pietize, or de-mystify poetry (a la Monkey-Zen or Holy Goofery), but I

> don't get the part about apple in relation to <pome>? // John M.

The name "Cody Pomeroy" certainly resonates with me. My brother and

sister-in-law named their eldest son "Cody" (neither of them have ever

read Kerouac; neither of them have probably ever even heard of JK) and

my paternal grandfather's mother was born to immigrants from Wales, in

Pomeroy, OH, an Ohio river town.

* + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + *

Gregory Severance

morocco@walrus.com

http://www.walrus.com/~morocco/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"What costume shall the poor girl wear

to all tomorrow's parties?" -- Lou Reed

["All Tomorrow's Parties"]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"But at the far end of the universe

the million eyed Spyder that hath no name

spinneth of itself endlessly" -- Allen Ginsberg

["Lysergic Acid"]

* + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + * + *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:44:40 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

At 06:12 PM 5/7/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In my ignorance I guess I was under the mistaken impression that John Sampas

>was one of Stella's brothers, a guy pehaps in his 60-70's. Now, after

>reading a recent post it appears he is a nephew of Stella, I'm assuming

>somebody in his 30's-50's. Could someone clarify, please?

>

>Also, who is Jim Sampas? I saw on the Rykodisc he is listed as the Producer

>of the CD. How is he related to John?

>

>

>Another interesting thing I discovered while doing my research. Apparently

>George Tobia, John Sampas' lawyer, is also Hunter S. Thompson's lawyer.

> Anybody know how that came about? On the Rykodisc it says he was present

>when Hunter was recording "Ode to Jack" at 5 in the morning! Christ, I hope

>he wasn't on billable time!

>

>Jerry Cimino

>Fog City

>

John Sampas is Stella's youngest brother. Jim Sampas is John's

nephew. John has been grooming Jim as his successor. Thanks to John's

sponsorship, Jim got to produce some of the musical events at the last NYU

Kerouac conference (the one Jan and I were kicked out of, after Jan asked

for 5 minutes to speak). Jim Sampas was all over the place with a purple

ribbon on his chest, while they didn't even give Jan a free ticket to the

Town Hall reading, and she stood outside on the street all nite. (Further

history, if anyone cares.) (Maybe I'm now talking to myself.)

My guess is that Thompson got to know Sampas at the first NYU Beat

Conference in 1994, and Sampas "did him a favor" (John's favorite way of

getting useful people into his camp). I'm glad you explained that to me,

because Thompson almost punched me out when I asked him to write a piece on

Jan Kerouac and her fight to save her father's archive. Thompson also acted

like I was some rude stranger coming up to him in New York, when in fact I'd

had dinner with him and Ron Kovic (my old buddy, Mr. Born on the Fourth of

July) in North Beach a few years earlier. However, Thompson was stoned at

the time of the North Beach dinner, he was jumping up on the tables in

Tosca's and swinging at imaginary fastballs, so I guess he had an excuse for

not remembering.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:04:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone

In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=USGOV%l=EXMAIL10-970508193734Z-39998@exmail04.usma.army.mil>

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Gibbons, Jeffrey x85139e1 wrote:

> I just wanted to let the list members know, if they haven't seen

> already, that the newest issue of Rolling Stone has a rather lengthy

> tribute to Allen. It includes a typical remembrance by the RS writer,

> but also includes remembrances by some of the living "Beats" and artists

> that he influenced. Some nice pics too.

> Jeff

>

> >

>

I heard that, from a reliable source (someone who works at Rolling Stone),

that AG was supposed to get the cover but then U2's manager called up

Rolling Stone and told them that they really needed the cover (their

record and tour sales were down and they needed the publicity).

Is U2 on the cover? If this is true than i think i will never again have

the love for U2 that I did.

thought you all might be interested in this tidbit--I was very offended.

matt

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:11:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone

Allen G. was going to be on the cover of Rolling Stone, they even did the art

work for it. Jann Wener was all for it "despite the money they would lose in

sales." However, the band U2 had a contract for the cover and pushed for it.

This was the band's agents that were pushing for the cover, the band itself may

not have even known what was happening. BTW, U2 was slagging in sales which is

one reason why their "people" pushed for the cover. So Allen missed out and U2

got the press, yawn.....

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:11:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Jack Kerouac's intentions

>> Because Jack died unexpectedly at a relatively young age he had not yet made

>> arrangements to get everything into a University Libarary or whatever.

>> Indeed, most of his books were out of print when he died so who would expect

>> anybody may have even wanted his archive in 1969?

>>

>> In addition, let's not forget Jack was a dysfunctional alcoholic, possibly

>> incapable of really planning those aspects of his life out to the detail

>> required.

>>

>> To say he wouldn't have cared because he didn't do these things does not

>> obviate his intent or desire. I doubt this can have any bearing on the legel

>> wrangling, but I'm convinced Jack would not have wanted his stuff sold off

>> piecemeal.

>>

>> Jerry Cimino

>> Fog City

>> .-

>

>I can see your point Jerry, I don't think I said he didn't care. Maybe I

>should have said if he wanted to do it badly enough, or if he was sober

>enough enough of the time, or if he cared enough. I stand corrected.

>

>Collecting all the iformation meticulously does not mean, however, that

>he did not intend for his desifnated heirs to use their judgment how to

>deal with it according to their need or interest. In one of the posts

>someone indicated, I believe Gerry, that Jack told his nephew that he

>could do with it whatever he wanted. My memory is vague on this.

>

>BTW Jerry, I am another great admirer of your interest, comprehensive

>and intelligent post on this issue. I enjoyed reading it and feel right

>on about almost all of it.

>

(Leon Tabory)

Dear Leon-- May 8, 1997

I agree with Jerry that I don't think Jack expected to die as

quickly as he did. He had gone to his lawyer in September, 1969, to get a

divorce filed against Stella, and probably figured he'd live to see the

divorce go thru. If Stella was out of the picture, and Jack left everything

to his mother, then as far as he knew his archive would pass along to Paul

and Jan, his "blood line," as he called it.

Before Jack died, needing money desperately, he did make two sales

of parts of his archive--both times to universities, his Ginsberg letters to

U. of Texas, and his Burroughs letters to Columbia. He rejected, however, a

big deal from Gotham Book Mart.

Jack did tell his nephew, essentially, to do what he wanted with

Jack's stuff, which just goes to show the kind of trust that existed within

the inner core of the Kerouac family. He had last seen Paul Jr. when Paul

was about 20 or 21, and Jack had known him all his (Paul's) life. That

trust has been vindicated, since Paul Jr. has never wavered in his intention

to get "Uncle Jack's" papers into a library, if Gabrielle's will is thrown

out in Florida. Paul even signed a letter of intention with Jan to get all

Jack's stuff into the Bancroft Library, if details can be worked out.

In the October 20, 1969, letter you refer to, Jack made clear that

he did not want anyone named Sampas to as much as touch his papers. I don't

think there's any way you can construe this to mean the Sampases were his

"designated heirs."

Even when the "designated heirs" sell things off piecemeal, it's not

pretty. There's an article anyone interested in the Kerouac Estate Fight

ought to read in this month's POETS & WRITERS magazine, called "Selling

Pieces of the Phoenix: May Sarton's Estate Goes to the Auction Block."

Sarton's heirs evidently figured it was okay to auction all her personal

belongings [not her manuscripts and papers] as a benefit for the American

Academy of Arts & Sciences, but, as the writer Frances Lefkowitz comments:

"As her possessions get split up and carted off, sold and resold, her

writing is the only thing that stands a chance of remaining whole." Ditto

for Jack Kerouac, unless we win in Florida.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:20:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters Interview

Jerry:

Do you know what number it is. I have all the ones I'm in and might have it.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:34:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac question

At 07:11 PM 5/7/97 -0700, you wrote:

>William Morgan wrote: . .

> My main concern is whether it's fair to say

>> he was "arrested" since I've seen it mentioned that he was "arrested as a

>> material witness" or was he "held" as a material witness.

>> Bill Morgan

>

>And I understand from courtesy of a backchannel post that Jan Kerouac

>sold the arrest warrant--so maybe we will never know.

>

>J Stauffer

>

Dear James: May 8, 1997

Will my "backchannel" opponents never tire of mudslinging?

(I guess it's easier than answering why John Sampas isn't putting

the Kerouac archive in a library.)

Jan Kerouac did not sell the Lucien Carr material witness warrant.

Jan sold the warrant (belonging to her mother) which sought Jack

Kerouac to pay child support. It was given her by her mother. She made

several copies of it before she sold it. It is not the kind of document

which is important for scholars who are studying the composition process of

Jack Kerouac. I will place a copy on deposit in the Bancroft Library, along

with Jan's whole archive, if John Lash ever lets me.

Jan sold it because she needed the money to bring Paul Blake Jr.'s

son, young Paul III, to speak in his father's place in New York, at a press

conference announcing the filing of her Florida lawsuit in 1994. It was

important for someone to represent Blake's point of view there.

The person who bought the warrant, as I understand it, was John

Sampas's lawyer, GEORGE TOBIA. Since then, the Sampases have used that fact

to claim, over and over, that Jan would simply sell off Jack Kerouac's whole

archive piecemeal if she got the same chance.

Neither Mr. Tobia nor Mr. Sampas could have been too interested in

the actual warrant if they never even bothered to read it. In any case, we

can rest assured that it's in good hands.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:38:19 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Intro; Wm S Burroughs

Zach Hoon wrote:

>

> Hello all...

>

> My name's zach and i've just added myself to the beat-l list. I've been

> maintaining a Wm S Burroughs site on the web since about the middle of '95,

> and am, obviously, a big fan of his work.

>

> I'm not very versed in the work of the other beats, save for Ginsberg, who

> started it all for me (it was the Miles biography of Ginsberg that i found

> for a dollar at a garage sale, got me reading in this direction.) Kerouac

> i've tried to read, but to no real success or enjoyment...

>

> So i'm just wondering: what are some of your general opinions on the work

> and life of WSB?

>

> if anyone's interested, the site is going through a heavy restructuring

> right now, but the url is

> http://www.burroughs.net

>

> thanks,

>

> -z

Zach, your e-mail address while amusing at least doesn't allow

communication from the Kansas vortex.

welcome to the list. i had a longer welcome via backchannel but i think

it is off somewhere in the wiring of things now.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:21:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: It's a Small World, After All

Were members of this list at the "Velvet Years" opening at the

Photogaphiuc Resource Center in Boston this evening, or is the Kerouac

Estate matter on Everybody's mind? I happened to overhear part of a

conversation about "Sampas" and "Ann" and , I think < the Lowell

committee? It didn;t seem appropriate to maintain a prolonged attempt

at eavesdropping, much less jumping into the conversation--so I pried

myself away , dying of curiousity.

Great photo fo Jack listening to himself on the radio in the other

exhibit, huh, mystery Beat-l member?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:29:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone [OFF TOPIC NON-BEAT]

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.94.970508180204.58451A-100000@rs4.tcs.tulane.edu>

[WARNING: OFF-TOPIC]

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

> Is U2 on the cover? If this is true than i think i will never again have

> the love for U2 that I did.

If this bit of crass capitalism gets you mad, then you should look into what

they did to the people in the band Negativland -- it'll _really_ get you

going.

In brief: Negativland once made a very excellent album called _U2_, sampling

bits of their "Where the streets have no name" song (interspersed with true

recordings of Casey Kasem swearing and insulting the callers of his American

Top 40 radio show -- off-air, of course). It's a great song, but of course

U2 brought their iron hammer down on the band, causing them all sorts of

grief, including an incredible amount of debt. And, of course, they ordered

(and succeeded) in recalling the record, though you can still find copies

out there. But they seriously destroyed the lives of the people in that band.

In interviews & other public spots, several times during this time period

(including interviews in that trash of a rag _Rolling Stone_), the members

of U2 said that they loved the idea of "sampling" and encouraged others to

do that with their own work (this was around the "Zoo TV" time, when during

live concerts Bono & co. made a point of continuous sampling of others'

work, by rebroadcasting a satellite tv feed onstage and randomly flipping

through stations). Figuring, of course, that most people reading a U2

interview for content would not know about the plight of Negativland, much

less have ever even heard of them. I think their gratutious blather on and

on about how much they "supported" sampling is what made this whole event so

perverse in my eyes -- it made Bono and friends look like the depraved

protagonist of Bret Easton Ellis' _American Psycho_, playing in his own

scat. Anyway, you can check out Negativland's stuff out at

http://www.negativland.com -- yeah they're still around, and doing well.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:30:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: flapjack interlude

To maybe understand more go to

http://www.onestep.com/writers/short/gallaher/short.html

Shortstack Lightening Champeen Pancake Eater

>From: Will Russell <wrussell@nature.Berkeley.EDU>

>Subject: Re: Hi Tim

>To: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu (Timothy K. Gallaher)

>Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT)

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>

>Timothy, The great Flapjack on skid row hittin' the coffee hard, bit bad

>by the caffein bug was visited by the late Ezikiel O'Mally in a dream.

>And in that dream O'Mally spoke of a train, a slow train that was

>a'comin' carrying on it a special cargo."Where's that train bound? I don't

>know," said a voice in the dream, but he knew it was bound for Glory.

>Glory Tennessee, that is, where the most infamous eater of pancakes now

>resides in a penthouse suite at the top of the tallest of the tallest

>swanky apartment buildings in the state, all four hundred pounds of him

>resting up there in comfort, Shortstack Lightning, who let fame and the

>pancakes of the rich change him from a decent country boy

>into..into..a..Monster! Flapjack woke from his dream in a sweat, and

>rubbed his swollen coffee ruined stomach. I was the best once, the

>greatest pancake eater in the United States, maybe the world. The kids now

>the were fast, it was true. With all that special training equipment and

>designer pancake eating drugs. But where was the heart. "They got no

>heart." He croaked outloud to noone in particular. Maybe, just maybe he

>could kick the coffee. Maybe, just one more time he could drag himself

>out of retirement and sit at that big table one more time. Maybe, just

>maybe old Flapjack was gonna sit down and eat him some pancakes.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:48:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Intro; Wm S Burroughs

In a message dated 97-05-08 21:39:03 EDT, you write:

<< Zach, your e-mail address while amusing at least doesn't allow

communication from the Kansas vortex.

welcome to the list. i had a longer welcome via backchannel but i think

it is off somewhere in the wiring of things now.

>>

Are whole gobs missing? I'll have to check the Burroughs site out. Maybe

write something about the last supper I had with him and Ginsberg. Both

proper gentlemen. Appearing to clean up their act. Shaking hands with babies.

Reciting Shakespeare. Checking out the .38 Special. Rolling a joint. Roasting

lamb chops. Fiddling with a hand painted tie. Ginsberg tidying up the

kitchen. Washing dishes in a tie. Oh my. The sobbing Vortex howls.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:49:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone [OFF TOPIC NON-BEAT]

> > Is U2 on the cover? If this is true than i think i will never again

have

> > the love for U2 that I did.

>

> If this bit of crass capitalism gets you mad, then you should look into

what

> they did to the people in the band Negativland -- it'll _really_ get you

> going.

From what I have heard about the whole Negativeland thing... And this is

second hand information so take it however you will... But I heard that

that was all out of the bands control. That U2 was impressed with the NL

cd, but that their record company took it upon themselves to file action.

Like I said, I don't know how trur this, but I do know that bands have

relatively little to say about what their record companies do... Even with

what songs are on cds. This _could_ be the case with both of these

incidents. But then again... U2 could just have gotten way too big for

their heads...

-Bill

[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

|"A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened

| into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the

| hope of greening the landscape of idea."

|

| -- John Ciardi

[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:08:10 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone [OFF TOPIC NON-BEAT]

In-Reply-To: <9705082255.aa22724@buffnet1.buffnet.net>

and one more comment about thhe U2 / ginsberg / neativeland... to bring

all this full circle Ginsberg was featured in a U2 special about the

making of their current tur a few backs on much (recorded before that

obviously). Ginsberg was shown reciting one of U2 songs from their latest

cd. (i think it "miami" off of _pop_)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:14:34 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Intro; Wm S Burroughs

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-08 21:39:03 EDT, you write:

>

> << Zach, your e-mail address while amusing at least doesn't allow

> communication from the Kansas vortex.

> welcome to the list. i had a longer welcome via backchannel but i think

> it is off somewhere in the wiring of things now.

> >>

>

> Are whole gobs missing? I'll have to check the Burroughs site out. Maybe

> write something about the last supper I had with him and Ginsberg. Both

> proper gentlemen. Appearing to clean up their act. Shaking hands with babies.

> Reciting Shakespeare. Checking out the .38 Special. Rolling a joint. Roasting

> lamb chops. Fiddling with a hand painted tie. Ginsberg tidying up the

> kitchen. Washing dishes in a tie. Oh my. The sobbing Vortex howls.

> Charles Plymell

were you in tie and shaking babies with 38s in hand as well ?

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:26:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters Interview

Thanks for the interest in helping, Charles... I believe it is issue # 24,

Spring 1996. Hopefuly, you'll have it.

BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as too much of a hard ass to you or anyone

else with some of my more recent posts. I'm just extremely concerned with

some of the rhetoric and innuendo that's been offered as "proof" of what is

really going on with the estate situation, hence my desire to dig a little

deeper.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:23:26 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: It's a Small World, After All

Linda,

The shows title aroused my curiousity--what's it about.

J Stauffer

Linda Highland wrote:

>

> Were members of this list at the "Velvet Years" opening at the

> Photogaphiuc Resource Center in Boston this evening,

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:39:02 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Jack's Intentions

Jerry,

l admire your persistence in trying to get at the truth in this muddle.

I still have to agree with Leon's original statement on this. Clearly

Jack didn't do this right, but what he did do has to really be the

determining factor. If the will is forged, Gerry and his forces are

clearly right. If the will isn't, as I read these posts the material is

the legal property of the folks currently controlling it. They may not

make the decisions that we would like, but they are free to make their

own bad choices. Ultimately, as Leon points out, it goes back to Jack

at least as much as any other evil characters here. As badly as Jack

treated his daughter it is hard to straighten out his mistakes for him.

I don't have any evidence, and am just going to count on the system

(desperate thought) to sort out smoking guns from smoke and mirrors.

In reference to Gerry's post, apparantly my source referenced the wrong

Jack Kerouac warrant as the one Jan sold, but the point is the same.

Gerry says the warrant isn't important, a copy will do fine. How is

this different than asserting that the original texts aren't important,

scholars can do just as well with copies? I guess I'm missing something

here. We also hear that it is wrong to keep letters from being

published, presumably so as not to affect living people, as in the

example dealing with Whalen's personal life. I agree, I'm all for full

disclosure, but holding this stuff back until the participants are gone

is, or has been, a fairly standard practice, whether I like it or not.

And I keep swearing I won't enter this quagmire.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 05:22:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: CORNIX applet

Comments: To: stutz@dsl.org, mike@buchenroth.com, pscalia@nh.ultranet.com,

blove@wylieagency.com, Jwhite333@aol.com, stand666@bitstream.net,

pottsca@wwics.com, McSnake10@aol.com, goblin@sonic.net,

rbove@duke.poly.edu, Seward23@aol.com, ChloieA@aol.com,

Donkennis@aol.com, rayl@wsuhub.twsu.edu, roxie@clark.net,

"jefferya.beach" <gyaltsen@earthlink.net>,

Waterrow@aol.com, KeroConnec.@aol.com, stauffer@pacbell.net,

judy.logan.ace@artsfb.org.uk, "donaldg.jr.lee" <donlee@comp.uark.edu>

Dear Mike:

I checked the flashing words through the computers at school, and my director

ordered a program for the writing lab. I'm very interested in the effects.

It shows the mind can assimilate words faster than we speak and also shows

that our former "mind chunk" teaching pedagogy may not be including a more

digital generation that is reading city signs flashing neon roads, stop

lights, directions, etc.

I set some students in front of it. One with obvious language difficulties

could interpret the message easier, one was afraid of its strobe like effect

and made her uncomfortable. My director, I think, was interested when I said

it calmed me down. Possibly it may be a good device instead of Ritlin for

younger kids. I see a lot of what I call borderline disability in accessing

language that frustrates especially as a group, young men. I'm posting

Buchenroth to see if he can work one of my bebop poems through the word flash

at about 450rpm. He is building an incredible site for me. Do you have any

further advice or developments or ideas. Please contact me

(pam@cherryvalley.com) and check out Michael's site. He has posted my

autobiography and my reefer madness essay and the announcement of my new book

Robbing the Pillars for Gen. X in the Age of Apostasy.

(www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 03:11:47 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <muzik@lcp-yoda.com>

From: Nancy Johns <muzik@LCP-YODA.COM>

Subject: Patti Smith Concert Posters

Would you like to be notified when I have some Patti

Smith concert posters, records and/or memorabilia for sale?

Please reply to muzik@lcp-yoda.com

Thanks And Have A Wonderful Day!

Nancy

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:21:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone [OFF TOPIC NON-BEAT]

Re:why U-2 or their agents may feel publicity is imperative--according

to this week's Newsweek, their TV Special (recent, I infer) was the

lowest rated show ever.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:33:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: It's a Small World, After All

For James and anyone else who puzzled over my somewhat cryptic mention

of the Velvet years:

The Velvet Years is an exhibit of photos taken by Steven Shore in Andy

Warhol's factory around the time the Velvet Underground were still part

of it. The gentlemen discusing Beat-list type subjects were standing

in this area. However, a concurrent show was running called "Extended

Play-Between a Rock and a Hard Place", which was art work from various

mucisians--Patti Smith, Kim Gordon, Lou Reed, Willie Alexander, Fred

Frith, and others. This exhibit included a couple stills from Pull My

Daisy and a rather wonderful shot of Keroauc listening to himself on the

radio. Unfortunately, I do not remember off hand the musican

photographers of these particular works, though I suspect it was John

Cohen.......

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:36:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Ginsberg Memorial

In-Reply-To: <199705091233.FAA06254@mailtod-102.bryant.webtv.net>

For anyone who's interested, there will be a memorial service and concert

in Ann Arbor on May 24th in honor of Allen Ginsberg. Patti Smith and

Natalie merchant are playing and i think Anne Waldman is

speaking...There's also some sort of poetry

contest. As usual, tickets are available through Ticketmaster (does this

seem weird to anyone else??)

Tracy

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:32:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

>Dear James: May 8, 1997

>

> Will my "backchannel" opponents never tire of mudslinging?

GERRY I THINK WE ON THE LIST HAVE SEEN YOU DO YOUR SHARE OF MUDSLINGING

> (I guess it's easier than answering why John Sampas isn't putting

>the Kerouac archive in a library.)

GERRY YOU KNOW QUITE WELL THAT JOHN SAMPAS HAS PLACED (THROUGH HIS DEALER)

MANY KEROUAC ITEMS IN THE BERG COLLECTION OF THE NY PUBLIC LIBRARY> WHY ARE

YOU HIDING THIS KIND OF STUFF FROM THE BEAT-L LIST? HERE IS A LETTER THAT

WAS SENT TO THE EDITOR OF THE LOWELL SUN FROM RODNEY PHILLIPS ASSOCIATE.

DIRECTOR OF HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES AT THE BERG. Here Goes:

THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY

The Research Libraries-Fifth Avenue and 42 Street, New York 10018-2788

The Sun June 17,1994

Lowell, Massachusetts 01800

Dear Editors:

In an effort to counteract the misinformation and disinformation

promulgated

concerning the New York Public Library and the papers of Jack Kerouac, I

must take issue with the letter to the editor written by Gerald Nicosia that

appeared in the June 12 issue of the Sun. Simply stated, as reported, Mr.

Nicosia misconstrued my remarks.

To begin with, I did not, nor would I ever describe the New York

Public Library's collection of Jack Kerouac manuscripts as "a few". The Berg

collection of English and American Literature has purchased nine major

manuscripts, including Beat Generation (a play), Book of Dreams,Book of

sketches, Lucien Midnight,Maggie Cassady, Mexico City Blues, Passing

Through, Satori in Paris, and Some of the Dharma.

Although these manuscripts were purchased primarily from one rare

book and manuscript dealer, it has always been clear to the library that

these manuscripts have as their provenance the estate of Jack Kerouac as

represented by John Sampas. Furthermore,it has been similarly clear that Mr.

Sampas would "like" all the Kerouac papers to come to The New York Public

Library.

The New York Public Library has signed a legal deposit agreement

with Mr. Sampas to temporarily store the manuscript scroll of On the Road

for safekeeping in the Library's secure, climate-controlled storage areas. I

have never characterized this as "simply holding the scroll manuscript"

Although the library has no plans to physically conserve the scroll since it

does not belong to us, it should be noted that we plan to commission a

conservation survey of it. While I told Mr. Nicosia that the library could

never hope to own the scroll if it's asking price was truly one million

dollars, I must add that I have never been told the scroll's asking price by

anyone except Mr. Nicosia.

I hope this will clear up some of the inaccuracies and ambiguities

in Mr. Nicosia's account of his conversation with me.

Sincerely,

Rodney Phillips

Associate Director,

Humanities & Social Sciences

Are you going to try and tell us on the list that you have never read this

letter? I have asked you nicely to stop trashing the volunteers of Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac but instead you continue to promulgate untruths such as:

"The only thing I left out is that federal funding was cut from the

Lowell Kerouac Committee after complaints were made to the National Park

Service about the partisan use of funding for past Kerouac events. Even the

National Park Service doesn't think your committee deserves funding any

more--so why should I fund it?

This is totally untrue Lowell Celebrates Kerouac ended their relationship

with the National Park Service because in return for their support they

wanted to dictate our program (like most government agencies). We chose to

retain our independence. WE MADE THAT DECISION GERRY NOT THEM. We continue

to have an amicable, but unofficial relationship with them.

"Tell Sampas to get on here himself, so we can stop running around

in circles and get to the heart of the matter.

You know damn well John Sampas is not going to come on this list and argue

with you.

Quite frankly he couldn't be bothered with someone he considers a slanderer.

"The problem is, my archive has been closed to the public. This

happened about two years ago, after John Sampas went to speak with the

librarian, to complain that the public should not have access to this

material without his permission."

You know this isn't true you have talked to Martha Mayo. The archive isn't

"closed" and it had nothing to do with John Sampas. I explained what

happened in a previous post.

Gerry I will ask you again please keep your beef with Sampas private and

don't try to hurt people who work hard to promote Kerouac in his own

hometown such as the people of Lowell Celebrates Kerouac.

Again Gerry you must know of the numerous items placed in the Berg

Collection by John Sampas. Why do you try to hide these facts. I bet you

could even get a list if you tried but that wouldn't serve your cause would

it Gerry? Phil Chaput

> Jan Kerouac did not sell the Lucien Carr material witness warrant.

> Jan sold the warrant (belonging to her mother) which sought Jack

>Kerouac to pay child support. It was given her by her mother. She made

>several copies of it before she sold it. It is not the kind of document

>which is important for scholars who are studying the composition process of

>Jack Kerouac. I will place a copy on deposit in the Bancroft Library, along

>with Jan's whole archive, if John Lash ever lets me.

> Jan sold it because she needed the money to bring Paul Blake Jr.'s

>son, young Paul III, to speak in his father's place in New York, at a press

>conference announcing the filing of her Florida lawsuit in 1994. It was

>important for someone to represent Blake's point of view there.

> The person who bought the warrant, as I understand it, was John

>Sampas's lawyer, GEORGE TOBIA. Since then, the Sampases have used that fact

>to claim, over and over, that Jan would simply sell off Jack Kerouac's whole

>archive piecemeal if she got the same chance.

> Neither Mr. Tobia nor Mr. Sampas could have been too interested in

>the actual warrant if they never even bothered to read it. In any case, we

>can rest assured that it's in good hands.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:01:12 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: CORNIX applet

Charley,

I'll be very interested to see what you do with this.

I looked at the Cornix site and was fascinated, despite it being rather

to much for my screen and my computers brain power. My first sense was

that it would be limiting for poetry because I would miss the sense of

rythm in the line and the stanza. I supose, however, that one could

find ways to use rythm in the way the words flash. Great potential for

a lot of things, and I think you sense of possible value for kids with

reading problems of whatever attention deficit etc is is really

interesting.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:03:48 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Velvet Era

Linda,

Suspected a Velvet Underground thing. Sounds like a couple of

interesting shows.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:26:41 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: CORNIX applet

James Stauffer wrote:

>

> Charley,

>

> I'll be very interested to see what you do with this.

>

> I looked at the Cornix site and was fascinated, despite it being rather

> to much for my screen and my computers brain power. My first sense was

> that it would be limiting for poetry because I would miss the sense of

> rythm in the line and the stanza. I supose, however, that one could

> find ways to use rythm in the way the words flash. Great potential for

> a lot of things, and I think you sense of possible value for kids with

> reading problems of whatever attention deficit etc is is really

> interesting.

>

> James

I have a step-sister with ADD and she is much more of a visual learner.

i really think it could help her and others with the illness.

as for the rhythm hmmm.m.m.m, i ain't got none anyway !?!?!?!?!

i tried it out. i was thinking, how long would it take me to read all

of the folks that my illiterate nature means i should read. it seems

like a great device.

the question of course is getting works in public domain or at least

educational use texts so that they can be incorporated with the

technology. my hunch is that it will become something of a hurdle....

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:44:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: New JK books for Fall

This week's Publishers Weekly has an article about Jack and publication.

Viking Penguin are publishing a 40th anniversary edition of OTR (which

currently sells 60,000 copies a year) complete with the Millstein NYTBR

review that hailed its publication as a 'historic occasion'. Additionally,

a marathon commemorative reading series will be held along the original

route taken in OTR, and there'll be a major Authors Guild fundraising event

featuring Garrison Keillor (!!??) and friends 'updating some classic OTR

chapters for a '90s audience. (PMWIP)

ALSO Viking are bringing out "SOME OF THE DHARMA", described as "An in-depth

study of Buddhism that Kerouac completed in 1956 but could not find a

publisher for". It was originally intended as notes for AG, bt grew to

become "an expansion of his famous spontaneous prose methold, and includes

prayers, poems, haikus, meditations, conversations and stories printed and

arranged into intricate patterns and shapes"

re the estate ... the PW article says the following. (Disclaimer - *I* am

not saying this, don't flame me)

"After Kerouac's death, rights to his works were owned by his widow, Stella,

wh refused to release any unpublished work. After Stella dies in 1989, John

Sampa, executor of Kerouac's estate, and Lord {the agent Sterling Lord, JK's

original agent, I think? NWW} sold to Viking all of Kerouac's unpublished

materials."

This suggests to me that, as I suggested last week, the publication of

unreleased material is being controlled not by the estate as such, but as

business decisions by the publisher. But i didn't know that 'all' the

unpublished material had been sold - so presumably the estate has a mighty

big advance for that already tucked away. It's hard to believe that Sterling

Lord could really have allowed seven JK books to go into public domain (I'm

not being antagonisitic, Gerry or disbelieving, it's just such a basic mistake)

Anyhow, start saving up for Fall. The big guys are after your hard-earned...

Nick

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:08:07 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Thomas Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Intro; Wm S Burroughs -Reply

Burroughs is great, obviously.

It's just a shame that his "best" (INHO) books are his least

well known ones: Western Lands and Ghost of Chance.

I'm going to be doing a course on the Beats next year - it

seems odd that the Burroughs work on the reading list is

"Naked Lunch", which is carefully calculated to put anyone

off unless they're particularly determined.

Tom. H.

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:30:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: CORNIX applet

Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com

Comments: cc: mike@buchenroth.com, pscalia@nh.ultranet.com,

blove@wylieagency.com, Jwhite333@aol.com, stand666@bitstream.net,

pottsca@wwics.com, McSnake10@aol.com, goblin@sonic.net,

rbove@duke.poly.edu, Seward23@aol.com, ChloieA@aol.com,

Donkennis@aol.com, rayl@wsuhub.twsu.edu, roxie@clark.net,

"jefferya.beach" <gyaltsen@earthlink.net>,

Waterrow@aol.com, KeroConnec.@aol.com, stauffer@pacbell.net,

judy.logan.ace@artsfb.org.uk, "donaldg.jr.lee"

<donlee@comp.uark.edu>, pam@cherryvalley.com

In-Reply-To: <970508231213_874932446@emout18.mail.aol.com>

Charles--

> I checked the flashing words through the computers at school, and my director

> ordered a program for the writing lab. I'm very interested in the effects.

Great, isn't it? I like to think of it as bringing the qualities of speech

or a movie to the written word -- the Word is usually looked at as a huge

"chunk" of data, but really when you make use of the Word -- when you read

-- you look at it as moving pictures or as speech in time, from the

beginning in the Garden of Eden to Watergate to now. This simply facilitates

the process via computing machinery.

>Do you have any further advice or developments or ideas.

You can check out an article I wrote about it at

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/story/2220.html -- there's a link in

the article to MIT's David Small, who did some fascinating work in document

visualization with the works of Shakespeare that is _definitely_ worth

checking out. The immediate future of electronic texts, imho, will be along

these lines.

I think the applet is great, but there's lots of room for improvement: the

scrollbars don't seem to work properly, so you can't "rewind" or

"fast-forward" a document, and -- worst of all -- you have to manaually

create an html document with a reference to the applet and all the text you

want to read for any given occassion. While I've done this for some texts

(like I'd mentioned earlier I read a couple Burroughs texts out on the net

with this thing, it was great), it certainly isn't practical for day-to-day

use. I believe that a solution to this is fairly trivial, and am working on

it (in short, creating a program that you reference via an URL, such at

http://mywebsite/myprogram and pass it variable information about what text

you want to display -- forinstance http://mywebsite/myprogram?howl or

http://mywebsite/myprogram?kaddish and it will generate on-the-fly "virtual"

html documents with your text in it). Am working on putting up the

manuscript of one of my novels in this way -- when I do it I'll send ya the

url.

cheers,

m

Michael Stutz | DESIGN SCIENCE LABS

http://dsl.org/m | Hypermedia, Internet,

Linux/GNU bumper stickers,indie rock,rants | Linux: http://dsl.org

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:41:53 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Intro; Wm S Burroughs -Reply

Thomas Harberd wrote:

>

> Burroughs is great, obviously.

> It's just a shame that his "best" (INHO) books are his least

> well known ones: Western Lands and Ghost of Chance.

> I'm going to be doing a course on the Beats next year - it

> seems odd that the Burroughs work on the reading list is

> "Naked Lunch", which is carefully calculated to put anyone

> off unless they're particularly determined.

>

> Tom. H.

> "A Bear of Very Little Brain"

> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

i would think some snips from Keroucian characterizations would be the

best starting point, and Ginsberg's poem on method. these seem easy to

incorporate on reserve. i would also recommend showing the video

documentary about him b4 sinking them too quickly into the Lunch. i

think you're right that they'd lose more than they'd gain from diving

nakedly into Lunch. it could turn them off dramatically to such a

genius.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:41:26 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Brooklyn College Memorial for AG

Just a reminder that the Brooklyn College Memorial for Allen Ginsberg

will take place on Monday on the Upper Quad. If you plan to attend,

remember to have photo identification to show the security guard who

will issue you a visitor's pass.Look forward to meeting any of you that

can make it. Bill

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:14:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

> featuring Garrison Keillor (!!??) and friends 'updating some classic OTR

> chapters for a '90s audience. (PMWIP)

What ?!?!? Please say that this is a typo.... What kind of "changes"

are going to be done? Who is the "Author" of these so called Changes...

Is dean going to be looking to score some crack? IMHO OTR is already a

timeless piece of literary excellence...

Is there any one we can write to to inquire about such things? And maybe

protest against the Changing of JKs words?

You just ruined my year...

-Bill

[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

|"A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened

| into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the

| hope of greening the landscape of idea."

|

| -- John Ciardi

[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:41:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

Well, quite so. Hence my editorial comment. It's what the article says.

Presumably this is one of Keillor's projects. I guess the Author's Guild are

behind it. I think though that there's a limit to what you can 'change' of

someone's work without permission from the estate, so I assume that this

whole event has the blessing of the executor. Before long there'll be an

animated Saturday morning Disneyfied On The Road with Jack and Neal and a

couple of cute furry friends Driving Through Mythical America. Take a

rebellious movement and commercialize it into something tame and cute and

nineties (leaving out the dangerous stuff on the way of course), pay off the

survivors by giving them Levis ads and of course lots of cash for the

undeserving descendants. Pass the sick bag, Alice.

A bit cynical today, sorry

Nick

>> featuring Garrison Keillor (!!??) and friends 'updating some classic OTR

>> chapters for a '90s audience. (PMWIP)

>

> What ?!?!? Please say that this is a typo.... What kind of "changes"

>are going to be done? Who is the "Author" of these so called Changes...

>Is dean going to be looking to score some crack? IMHO OTR is already a

>timeless piece of literary excellence...

>

> Is there any one we can write to to inquire about such things? And

maybe

>protest against the Changing of JKs words?

>

> You just ruined my year...

>

> -Bill

>

>[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

>|"A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened

>| into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the

>| hope of greening the landscape of idea."

>|

>| -- John Ciardi

>[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:56:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In a message dated 97-05-09 12:50:25 EDT, you write:

<< Before long there'll be an

animated Saturday morning Disneyfied On The Road with Jack and Neal and a

couple of cute furry friends Driving Through Mythical America. Take a >>

There already was a couple of cute friends (though not furry) driving through

America - a rip-off of OTR's popularity - it was a TV show called "Route 66."

-

JW

WaterRow

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:58:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bob Sica <s_rsica@PSTCC.CC.TN.US>

Subject: unsubscribe

unsubcribe

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:45:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

At 10:41 AM 5/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Well, quite so. Hence my editorial comment. It's what the article says.

>Presumably this is one of Keillor's projects. I guess the Author's Guild are

>behind it. I think though that there's a limit to what you can 'change' of

>someone's work without permission from the estate, so I assume that this

>whole event has the blessing of the executor.

What is this ultra-seriousness. A Lake Wobegone version of OTR sounds like

a humourous type of tribute. It is a measure of how well known and regarded

and now classic OTR has become (BTW, I actually am not any sort of fan of

keillor and the Wobegone stuff).

>Before long there'll be an

>animated Saturday morning Disneyfied On The Road with Jack and Neal and a

>couple of cute furry friends Driving Through Mythical America.

That sounds great. I hope they do this. I'll watch.

>Take a

>rebellious movement and commercialize it into something tame and cute and

>nineties (leaving out the dangerous stuff on the way of course), pay off the

>survivors by giving them Levis ads and of course lots of cash for the

>undeserving descendants. Pass the sick bag, Alice.

>

Rebellious? Kerouac never was for rebellion. His books were not about

rebellion. He wanted to be in the in same tradition as his forebears in

literature. He never had rebellion on his mind and the ideas of the sixties

folk who claimed "rebellion" didn't sit well with him.

Cassady was never into rebellion either.

>A bit cynical today, sorry

>

Sounds more like starry eyed idealism than cyniism to me.

>Nick

>

Take it easy dude.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:55:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Ginsberg's archive

Reply to Bill Morgan: May 9, 1997

Sorry it's taken so long to get back.

You win: the poster was dated in September, 1994, a month after

Ginsberg signed the Stanford contract. It seems to me that Allen's archive

was not on deposit there yet, if I remember correctly?

Allen and I were in heavy discussions from April of 1994 on, since

he was trying to talk both me and Jan out of going public concerning the

estate issue. At one point, I remember him defending John Sampas, saying

that John had a "right to shop around for the library that has the most

money to offer," and saying he was doing that kind of thing himself--though

I don't think he mentioned Stanford specifically.

Of course, as we now learn, Jeffrey Weinberg had already done that

job for Sampas in 1991 and come up with the Bancroft.

I also remember a funny exchange between me and Allen, where I told

Allen I had heard a rumor that Sampas was checking out Japanese buyers,

because they have so much cash, and Allen replied with his famous guilty

smirk, half-laughing: "MAYBE I OUGHT TO DO THAT!"

Your revelation that it only took ONE MONTH of heavy negotiation to

get the deal concluded with Stanford throws further doubt on the credibility

of Mr. Sampas's claim that it's taken him over six years just to begin a

deal with the New York Public Library, a deal he reportedly needs another 17

years to finish (what he told Allen).

Also, and you need to confirm this, there was supposedly GOOD REASON

FOR ALLEN TO KEEP HIS NEGOTIATIONS WITH STANFORD SECRET. I heard on the

library grapevine that Columbia University was truly pissed off with

GInsberg selling the stuff to Stanford, because they thought he planned to

sell it to THEM.

As far as I know, Mr. Sampas has made no such conflicting promises,

that would force him to keep his library negotiations secret.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:55:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Le copertine dei libri di Jack Kerouac.

Cari amici beats,

il primo volume di "Sulla Strada" l'ho acquistato

nel novembre 1969, sull'onda della recente scomparsa

dello scrittore. Ne ho ancora la copia. La copertina

portava il dipinto di alcune "donne di strada" offrendo

chiaramente all'acquirente una falsa immagine del beat.

Poi un'altra copia l'ho comprata nel 1979, e in copertina

c'era due hippies impegnati nel fumare, nel 1980 ho comperato

l'edizione "penguins modern classics" the cover, designed

by Germano Facetti, shows a detail from 'The Athlete's Dream'

by Larry Rivers, from S.C. Johnson Collection.

La copia che ho acquistato nel 1995 porta in copertina

una bellissima foto di wim wenders.

Faccio notare come JK for himself painted a cover picture

for the 1th edidiotn of OTR.

Le immagini (photos, paintings, picture, movie, films) sono

parte essenziale nella comunicazione e nel linguaggio,

saluti da Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:06:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: A Question for G. Nicosia/not Estate related!!

Hello Gerry,

Someone recently passed on to me an extra copy of the Grove

Press Publication of _Memory Babe_ (mine is

is disarray) and as I was perusing this copy I noticed

that pgs 97-128 were missing. There has been no

tampering with this copy (pages ripped out, etc.), as far

as I can tell because there would be obvious signs

(the gap in the binding). Was there problems w/

the orginal publishing, or did I stumble upon a

misprint? Just curious.

Thanx,

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:21:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

Yeh, you're right, i'm being over-serious today. It's only books, after all.

But Idon't know about the rebellion bit. I think everyone goes a little

overboard about the conservative Kerouac, and how much he hated the sixties

etc. At the time the books were read as a challenge to society, to

contemporary literary styles and moral values, and were thought of as

dangerous and corrupting, wern't they? With hindsight, it's too easy to say

it was all 'within a tradition'. Sure, he was jumping off from Wolfe etc,

but surely he *thought* he was being rebellious in his literary style, in

his religious explorations, in his 'lifestyle' etc.

A society deals with its rebels best by accomodating them into the

mainstream and thereby taking the sting out of the tail. The word 'classic'

is one way of doing this. I think the Beats really did have a sting, which

is why we're still here yakking away about them.

Nick

>What is this ultra-seriousness. A Lake Wobegone version of OTR sounds like

>a humourous type of tribute. It is a measure of how well known and regarded

>and now classic OTR has become (

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:29:20 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Literary History of the Beats

As another of the books to be printed this year, does anyone have

any facts relating to the supposed October publication of Allen

Ginsberg's LITERARY HISTORY OF THE BEATS? It sounds like an autumn

flood of works coming out of these publishing houses, and

HarperCollins has price etc already set for this particular item.

Does anyone (eg. Bill Morgan?) have the dope on the scope of this

book, say, is it an honest to goodness history, a series of essays,

an anthology of some sort?

Clay

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:33:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Rinaldo Rasa

May 9, 1997

I suggest we make Rinaldo Rasa Poet Laureate of the Beat List. If

we don't save Jack Kerouac's archive, his great cut-up poem of May 4 may be

the best thing to come out of all these years of struggle.

Rinaldo, piacere di fare la vostra conoscenza! Mio padre era

siciliano, non ciprioto! Di quale parte d'italia lei vene?

(Forgive my rusty Italian.)

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:54:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac Street

Hoping someone in the Bay Area will know this one. Saw Jack Kerouac

Street recently in San Francisco. When was this street named and who was

responsible? Was there some kind of ceremony? With beats? Was Kerouac

family there? Or did the city crew

just roll up and put up a sign?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:18:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

At 12:21 PM 5/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Yeh, you're right, i'm being over-serious today. It's only books, after all.

>But Idon't know about the rebellion bit. I think everyone goes a little

>overboard about the conservative Kerouac, and how much he hated the sixties

>etc. At the time the books were read as a challenge to society, to

>contemporary literary styles and moral values, and were thought of as

>dangerous and corrupting, wern't they?

I think this is true, my point is that this is not what kerouac intended and

was surprised by this response.

You know, there has been a lot of "rebel" or "revolutionary" literature

produced all over the world.

It is usually specious and boring.

Any revolutionary nature of Kerouac's books didn't come from an attempt to

produce revolutionary literature.

With hindsight, it's too easy to say

>it was all 'within a tradition'. Sure, he was jumping off from Wolfe etc,

>but surely he *thought* he was being rebellious in his literary style, in

>his religious explorations, in his 'lifestyle' etc.

>

>A society deals with its rebels best by accomodating them into the

>mainstream and thereby taking the sting out of the tail. The word 'classic'

>is one way of doing this. I think the Beats really did have a sting, which

>is why we're still here yakking away about them.

>

>Nick

>

>

>>What is this ultra-seriousness. A Lake Wobegone version of OTR sounds like

>>a humourous type of tribute. It is a measure of how well known and regarded

>>and now classic OTR has become (

>**************************************************************************

>*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

>It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

>

>Nick Weir-Williams

>Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

>President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

>List Manager, chipub listserv

>

>ph: 847 491 8114

>fax: 847 491 8150

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:15:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: exploding text complete/fairly long

Dearest listmembers, here it is completed. I hope you like it. I thought

it came out to be quite a nice tribute. Below is intro to hardcopy I will

be creating for Saturday and following, the text itself. I am truly looking

forward to reading/performing this for the L.A. crowd, I hear the phone is

ringing alot re the tribute, got pick of the week in The L.A. Weekly. The

show is a bit top heavy with 25 performers and an open to follow. They are

talking about rigging sound for the outside lawn for those that either can't

pay to get in or just couldn't get in because of room. If you know of

anyone coming, tell them to say that they are poets and I believe there is a

discount. It's ten bucks at the door with student, artist and senior

discount rates. The money is for buying Allen's books for the Beyond

Baroque library/store.

all the best

xxxooo

s.a.

*******************************

TO: Bill Gargan &

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Readers of artifact in hand &

Howl To The Bard : Cut & Paste

While four wheeling city of angels I was brain

storming with wind and rain and this here flash :

I am on Internet Beat List.

I am to be a part of Allen Ginsberg tribute

May 10th at Beyond Baroque in Venice, Ca.

In the tradition of those we talk about, think

about and look to here on said list I will alter/add

to Ginsberg's piece "On Burroughs Work"

then e-mail to whomever wishes to participate

by altering/adding then send it back and so on

via backmail to me until it is "finished" or the week

is up. It is imperative that whomever jumps onto

this trip work fast. Not much time to think about it,

and in the rules of J.K.'s spontaneous writing, it's

what works best. I will take the completed project

with me to tribute and read/perform it for folks there.

I wanted netusers to come with me on my adventure :

The Twisted Caddy gassed up and ready to roll down

international superhighway of starry night singalong

where comets burn in wake of gas, coffee and words

as together we do it all and gather freely in nets of

language.

I thought that this was a creative way to approach

this in the spirit of Allen and The Beats. Bring it

into the present and out of the clambake of nostalgia

by launching him into strange new gravity of

cyberspace holy.

xxxooo

S.A. Griffin

Thanks to Mike Bruner, Olly Ruff, David Rhaesa, Derek Beaulieu, Marie

Countryman, Michael Stutz & James Stauffer for their words to the wise guy.

Thanks to Jersey girl librarian Lorraine Perrotta who makes everything possible.

Exploding text from original by Allen Ginsberg:

Altered/added to by S.A. Griffin, Mike Bruner,

Olly Ruff, David Rhaesa, Derek Beaulieu,

Marie Countryman, Michael Stutz, & James Stauffer

****************************************************

On the Work of Burroughs

The method must be purest meat

of sharktalk, spoor

straight no chaser: at every bitter end

people leave and you're left

of center

of norm

of sexuality & spirituality

of soul & truth

Madness unadorned.

Real not allegorical & it's

all like it was before :

William's Red Wheelbarrow you

Must have seen in Patterson w/Blake

old and empty like the room before they came

take that first step again ; down an even darker road

into what's been bothering you, swallow heads and tails whole

& yes,

it feels

as

tho the vortex has opened

becoming

Dorothy &

Burroughs

is the

Great Oz with

toy

balloon

Toto a 1,000 Cosmic Cats

staring at millennium

change

& there are currents in the air as Cats inhale Bop Poetics

breeething deeply the air of supermarkets & streets

where you chose to radiate peace

. . . perhaps it's time again for revolution

classless

empty without form

peaceful Dharma Lion gait I see you walk in

Mind's Eye

see you walk and wonder what you'd say to this today?

I could never answer but it is all here

house full of machinery that I

angelheaded hipster

strove to search for starry wonder in mechanical Indra's Net all night

and now it's all in synch. . .

dead forgotten timezone airwaves : we communicate freely over

endless Kansas wheatfields

& tenement lower east side apts & diners & poisonous tomatoes

of yr mother's holy kaddish

and no symbolic dressing,

actual visions &

actual prisons of imaginary dungeons

and not yet from a distance as

surrounded by you now

as seen then and now.

"dreaming of a key..."

inside the dream machines

we become

anti-temporal-recordings

that

twist past the prerecorded

universe

that

begins

and ends

with one

or two midwest

Kansas

synapses ...

Prisons of psychic abstractions and visions presented as

sheet lightning filmset backdrops

in all the cracks of sidewalk

& in the leaves of grass

which are now rising from their

long winter sleep beneath the melting snow

with rare descriptions

corresponding exactly to those

of Alcatraz and Apocalypse Rose...

(with no Clint Eastwood style

hollywood

escape/ing the words of yr holy moods)

Stopping for refills of gas and coffee and love

counting virtual billboards

between

mirages on life's superhighway

where we face the information & sort thru the confusion &

information overload for the last gem of truth

looking in every wingmirror wanting for something not so real

- catching a glimpse

of the selfsame prisons. but :-

prisons without bars are holy like

skin is holy

baseball holy

internet holy

time holy

kiss of ages holy

holy

& where does yr beard point tonight old grey beard?

& who do you walk with arm in arm?

I write and pray straight stiff back out toward Heaven

the thoughts that make my mind and make me feast on

naked lunch of Purest meat

Cholesterol and all. Not even

Kosher..

A naked lunch is natural to us,

we eat reality sandwiches.

But allegories are so much lettuce.

& I'm still here

with you in Rockland. Eating the

sandwich you tried to teach me to make.

& now we look to the ways in which the words do it all

on this beautifully sad adventure we imagine

we are having.

they run faster and crueler

than whatever finger typed them

and sometimes we get the feeling that we

should erase the tape

and start the

whole damned show over again

now &

now & now

flip the tape & continue : side two

they are not things that could feasibly be used

for your own purpose ; you are trying to unlock them

or else use them to unlock things

and sometimes you yourself are the thing unlocked.

We gaze at wide mad wonder of life,

love of life,

love of last long-gone

dewdrop mad prison of this world as heady

Indian angel visitations in a million moments of

dreaming for love of life found in holy visions of summer

you know i was thinking

the other day in the Dillon's down on

Massachusetts Avenue

and i decided

that the locks were always just a dream

and i was

glad that

i spent time with such

a good and

dear friend

as

Allen Ginsberg

when I first met you and fell in love with yr

holy soul jelly roll,

grateful for our friendship

and only

hope that I

can face the remaining dream of life

with the rest of the living

until that day

when

the Western Lands are opened by an angry big mouth tornado in a

hurry cane tin pan alley

and we all

honeymoon together in the abyssinian

wheatfields

of

eternity.

poets holy :

tell me

which way yr

love points Allen

denver sf ny kyoto czech & shared beard of cuba

tonite in the perfume of

yr passion yet to

spend

dollars of soulmatra heart coin

to the cia fbi & raygun dollars of bomb

stars

breath

expand with

music

exponential

exponent tail

of heartbeat

holy

hear ear & heart of sacred cock & cunt

chest

holy

asshole holy

heart of mind holy I

hear you

In the sf waves and Erie shore

Ferlinghetti waves of Allen,

waves of lakes and waves

of heart,

I hear you call :

Are you my angel?

I hear what you say and I now write to the world to do it:

rise up! rise up! and claim

this world!

radiate one thousand years in peacedance of heaven earthbound childhood

visions

holy!

holy!

holy!

Don't hide the madness.

A word to the wise guy.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:17:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In-Reply-To: <9705091215.aa25394@buffnet1.buffnet.net>

granted i don'

t like the idea either of rewriting his prose, but my suggestion of what

to be done is -- if you dont like it ignore it! i mean, organize a

PROTEST?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Eric

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Bill Philibin wrote:

> > featuring Garrison Keillor (!!??) and friends 'updating some classic OTR

> > chapters for a '90s audience. (PMWIP)

>

> What ?!?!? Please say that this is a typo.... What kind of

"changes"

> are going to be done? Who is the "Author" of these so called Changes...

> Is dean going to be looking to score some crack? IMHO OTR is already a

> timeless piece of literary excellence...

>

> Is there any one we can write to to inquire about such things? And

maybe

> protest against the Changing of JKs words?

>

> You just ruined my year...

>

> -Bill

>

> [ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

> |"A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened

> | into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the

> | hope of greening the landscape of idea."

> |

> | -- John Ciardi

> [--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:23:00 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: S.Marco Place - venerdi' 9 maggio 1997, Venezia.

Otto uomini=20

e un solo fucile

VENEZIA - E' stato confermato che sono otto gli uomini del commando di

Piazza San Marco. Sono Fausto Faccia, Flavio Contin, Moreno Nemini, Cristian

Contin, Gilberto Buron, Luca Peroni, Andrea Viviani, Antonio Barison. I

carabinieri hanno inoltre confermato che il commando era armato di un solo

fucile "Mab" con due serbatoi e complessivamente 70 colpi. Inoltre il

commando era in possesso di una attrezzatura idonea a interferire sulle

frequenze radio-televisive.=20

Andrea Viviani, 26 anni, di Colognola ai Colli (Verona), Fausto Faccia, 30,

di Agna (Padova), Cristian Contin, 23, e lo zio Flavio Contin, 55, entrambi

di Urbana (Padova) sono gi=E0 stati indagati dalla Procura della Repubblica=

di

Verona. Non erano entrati nell'inchiesta del giudice Papalia Moreno Menini,

di 20 anni di Tregnago (Verona); Luca Peroni, di 28 anni di Zevio (Verona);

Antonio Barison, di 41 anni di Conselve (Padova); e Gilberto Buson, di 46

anni di Pernumia (Padova).=20

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:24:59 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: La Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia. 1797-1997

Commando "indipendentista"=20

occupa San Marco: tutti arrestati

<Picture>VENEZIA - Un commando di "indipendentisti" ha occupato questa notte

il campanile di San Marco proclamando l'indipendenza del Veneto.

L'intervento di agenti speciali dei carabinieri ha concluso il "blitz" e

portato in carcere i componenti del gruppo, otto persone, che si sono

dichiarati prigionieri politici. Uno degli arrestati, Antonio Barison, 41

anni, di Conselve (Padova), si =E8 sentito male dopo essere stato condotto

nella caserma dei=20

carabinieri, dove sarebbe stato chiesto l'intervento di un tenente medico.

Successivamente Barison =E8 stato ricoverato nel reparto di rianimazione

dell'ospedale civile di Venezia, dove =E8 piantonato da alcuni agenti di

polizia. La direzione sanitaria e i medici mantengono il massimo riserbo sia

sulla diagnosi sia sulle condizioni di salute del=20

paziente.

L'attacco era cominciato questa notte all'una con il sequestro di un

traghetto, dal quale =E8 sbarcato con un mezzo anfibio militare e un=

pulmino.

Sul campanile "occupato" =E8 stata innalzata la bandiera di San Marco=

definita

del Veneto Serenissimo Governo. L'azione dovrebbe essere partita dal Lido di

Venezia.=20

Il commando ha costretto il comandante del traghetto a trasportare un camion

con rimorchio, nel quale era celato il mezzo militare con due bocche da

fuoco, probabilmente di fabricazione straniera, con la sigla VTMB07. Il

commando ha "occupato" quindi Piazza San Marco. Alcuni incursori, che si

presume armati, sono rimasti dentro il mezzo militare, altri si sono recati

nel campanile per innalzare il vessillo. Gli incursori si sono dichiarati al

comandante del traghetto delle linee di navigazione interno dicendo: "Questa

=E8 una azione militare". Subito sono affluiti sul posto ingenti forze di

polizia, carabinieri e Guardia di Finanza.=20

Alle 6,30 gli incursori hanno trasmesso il primo comunicato diramato su

Raiuno con una interferenza piratesca, sul tipo delle altre interferenze

(nove fino alle ultime di Belluno e Verona), compiute sui telegiornali

nazionali. Il comunicato dice: "Parliamo a nome del Serenissimo governo e

comunichiamo ai veneti che dopo 200 anni questa notte su ordine del Veneto

Serenissimo Governo un reparto regolare della Veneta Serenissima Armata ha

liberato Piazza S. Marco. Oggi rinasce la Veneta Serenissima Repubblica che

riprende a vincere perch=E9 noi l'abbiamo dotata della nostra incrollabile

fede affinch=E9 essa viva". Il comunicato conclude con "Viva S.

Marco".=20

L'azione =E8 stata compiuta alla vigilia delle celebrazioni del Bicentenario

della Serenissima che avranno luogo domenica, organizzate dalla Lega, e=

luned=EC,

promosse dalla regione Veneto. Domani, inoltre, Piazza S. Marco ospiter=E0=

il

giuramento solenne delle truppe anfibie lagunari eredi dei fanti da Mar

della Serenissima.

Dopo l'arrivo delle autorit=E0 un giovane incursone, con il volto bendato,=

ha

parlato con le forze dell'ordine, dicendo che sono determinati ed agiranno

se minacciati: "Non vogliamo creare disordini", ha aggiunto. Il commando si

considera appartenente

alla "Forza regolare della Serenissima armata". Il giovane si mostrava

nervoso e concitato. Al comandante del traghetto

avevano dichiarato "questa =E8 una azione di guerra". Il mezzo blindato

impiegato =E8 vecchio e di probabile fabbricazione

straniera. Il pulmino =E8 probabilmente lo stesso utilizzato per le

interferenze televisive, a bordo ci sarebbe infatti l'apparecchiatura che ha

consentito stamane la diramazione del comunicato sul Tg1 delle 6,30. Quando

hanno compiuto l'incursione, Piazza San Marco era pressoch=E9 deserta.=

Subito

si =E8 affollata di forze dell'ordine ed =E8 stata sorvolata anche da un

elicottero della Guardia di Finanza.

Il procuratore della Repubblica Smitti ha sottolineato che "ci sono

certamente reati" e si =E8 chiesto

come tanti altri se vale la pena fare una cosa del genere.

"Come primo giudizio si pu=F2 dire che =E8 una cosa folle, ma =E8

una cosa folle organizzata sul posto apparentemente con armi,

quindi estremamente seria". L'accesso a Piazza S. Marco =E8

stato bloccato dalle forze dell'ordine che vi hanno creato un cordone.

Pi=F9 tardi agenti dei corpi speciali armati dei carabinieri (Gis) sono=

saliti

sul campanile da una scala telescopica e sono entrati nell'edificio. Secondo

Smitti l'azione =E8 stata decisa dopo che era fallito qualsiasi tentativo di

trattativa. "Ci auguriamo - ha detto Smitti - che non sia necessario il

ricorso alle armi".

Secondo alcune testimonianze all'interno del campanile sono stati sparati

alcuni lacrimogeni ma nessun colpo di arma=20

da fuoco. Alcuni componenti del commando sono stati bloccati=20

dagli agenti dei corpi speciali e sono stati visti uscire dal=20

campanile scortati dalle forze dell'ordine.

I componenti del commando sono stati tutti arrestati. Vengono loro

contestati fra l'altro i reati di associazione sovversiva, banda armata,

sequestro di persona.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:25:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: Rinaldo Rasa

In-Reply-To: <199705091833.LAA23533@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

hello,

could anybody send me a copy of this mentioned piece if they have it

saved. i was on a Beat-l sabbatical so missed the past few weeks list

events. this and or or anything else of interested would be appreciated.

thnks,

Eric

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> May 9, 1997

>

> I suggest we make Rinaldo Rasa Poet Laureate of the Beat List. If

> we don't save Jack Kerouac's archive, his great cut-up poem of May 4 may be

> the best thing to come out of all these years of struggle.

> Rinaldo, piacere di fare la vostra conoscenza! Mio padre era

> siciliano, non ciprioto! Di quale parte d'italia lei vene?

> (Forgive my rusty Italian.)

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:45:50 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Today in Venice.

09-MAG-97 07:44 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST MARK'S OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS

(ANSA) - Venice, May 9 - Venice's St Mark's square was sealed

off by police this morning after a group of five or six people

believed to be armed occupied the belltower where they unfurled

the flag of the old Republic of Venice.

The group reportedly reached Tronchetto, on the mainland,

shortly after midnight aboard two vehicles. There they

commandeered a ferry with a small number of passengers aboard

and ordered the captain to take them and their vehicles to the

St Mark's stop.

Witnesses said the men in the group were wearing camouflage

fatigues and carrying machine-guns and pistols which may or may

not be real weapons. One of the vehicles they were driving was

described as a camper and the other as having the appearance of

an armored troop carried.

Early this morning, a weak radio signal broadcast from the

top of the belltower cut in on local public radio broadcasting

with the message, delivered in a heavy Venetian accent, that the

St Mark's belltower had been occupied by the ''serenissimo''

government, the government of the old Republic of Venice.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 08:34 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST MARK'S OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS (2)

Venice police chief Umberto Cernetig and the provincial

Carabinieri police commander, Emilio Borghini, later approached

the troop carrier where they were told, by a masked man in

fatigues that the group was awaiting the arrival of the

''ambassador of the Republic of Venice''.

May 12 marks the 200th anniversary of the demise of the

republic which came under foreign domination for the first time

when Venice was occupied by French troops in 1797.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 08:34 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST MARK'S OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS (3)

Later in the morning, the six or seven people who had been

occupying the belltower were flushed out by members of a special

Carabinieri police unit. These special agents erected a

telescopic ladder on the side of the belltower which they

climbed to gain entry. Inside, they apparently used teargas.

Also taken into custody were two men from inside the

separatists' camper and another two inside the armored troop

carrier.

On the scene, a Finance Police lieutenant colonel said the

Carabinieri police were still conducting a sweep of the inside

of the belltower and that no gunshots had been heard.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 09:00 NNN

GEN: ST. MARK'S SQUARE OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS (4)

(ANSA) - Venice, May 9 - A total of eight members of the

self-styled 'Government of the Republic of Venice' were taken

into custody by the end of the operation in St Mark's square and

belltower.

A close inspection of the vehicle described as an armored

troop carrier disclosed that it was a van assembled out of old

body panels over three axles and eight wheels. The other vehicle

involved, the camper, was found to contain leaflets and other

documents plus radio transmitters.

During the operation, police found two machine-guns, a Mab

and a Stern, which may or may not have been in working order.

Venice Mayor Massimo Cacciari, on the scene, thanked the

crack Carabinieri unit for the assault on the belltower and

reported that he had learned of the occupation of the monument

only in the morning because his telephone answering machine was

broken.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 10:31 NNN

GEN: ST. MARK'S SQUARE OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS (5)

Northern League leader Umberto Bossi, who staged a three-

day march along the Po River in September last year to declare

the ''independence of the Padania'', said today's actions were

''crazy, stuff to be laughed at. I saw it on Tv this morning. It

was something unreal and spectacular at the same time,'' said

the MP who secessionist talk has been muted thus far this year.

An assistant public prosecutor put in charge of the case,

Rita Ugolini, said she would hold a press conference at noon

(local).

(END).

GY

09-MAG-97 10:31 NNN

GEN: ST MARK'S SQUARE OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS... FIRST ADD

(ANSA) - Venice, May 9 - As the occupation of the St Mark's

belltower was scaled back from an armed assault in the historic

square to a spectacular demonstration, Defense Minister

Beniamino Andreatta in Rome lavished praise on the GIS, the

Carabinieri rapid intervention unit.

These men, said Andreatta in Rome, ''planned, organized and

carried out the operation'' which came as an ''effective

demonstration that the national community can always count on

the professionalism and steady reliability of the Carabinieri.''

The GIS commanding officer told Ansa in Venice that the

unit was alerted at 0130 today (2330 gmt Thursday) and reached

Venice from Livorno, on the north-central Tyrrhenian, two-and-

a-half hours later, aboard an Air Force plane.

The Carabinieri policemen brought with them an 'assault'

Range Rover equipped with a sliding roof from which a ladder can

be extended to a height of ten meters. After sharpshooters took

up positions around the square and the electricity had been cut,

three groups moved into action, one at the base of the

belltower, one which stormed the tower loggia off the Range

Rover ladder and another which climbed scaffolding set up around

the monument for restoration work.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 13:30 NNN

GEN: ST MARK'S SQUARE OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS... FIRST ADD (2)

The entire operation, said the GIS commander, lasted no

longer than seven or eight minutes. Six of the eight men taken

into custody were inside the belltower, where a MAB machine-gun

with 30 shells in the clip was found, and two were taken from

the mock-up of an armored personnel carrier.

The separatists had brought food and drink, including wine,

with them into the belltower indicating they planned to hold out

for some time. The Carabinieri police also came across a small

generator the men could have used to illuminate the belltower

and power their radio transmitter.

The GIS commander said today's operation was less difficult

that one completed recently in the southern Adriatic port city

of Barletta where four armed robbers, who had shot a Carabinieri

policeman to death and wounded another one, were holed up with

the wife and 14-year-old son of one of the gang.

The four men captured, without firing a shot, were fully

armed and had hand grenades.

The eight separatist demonstrators now in custody in Venice

could be charged with subversive association, forming an armed

band, illegal possession of firearms, assault on national

integrity and kidnapping for subversive purposes.

(MORE).

GY

09-MAG-97 13:30 NNN

GEN: ST MARK'S SQUARE OCCUPIED BY SEPARATISTS... FIRST ADD (3)

These charges were named here by Carabinieri Captain Angelo

Iannone who noted that the magistrate in charge of the case will

have the job of filing the charges.

The kidnap count could refer to the captain of the ferry

used by the separatists, Giovanni Girotto, and passengers aboard

the boat making its closing trip of the day up the Grand Canal

with departure from the Tronchetto stop at 0020 (2220 gmt

Thursday).

Girotto reported that the men appeared determined, were

using two-day radios ''and did not seem particularly prepared

militarily because they paid their fares before boarding.'' He

said they arrived with a white camper and a truck-trailer towing

the mock-up personnel carrier under a tarp.

The captain said neither he nor his passengers paid special

attention to the vehicle which appeared armored or the fact that

the men were wearing camouflage fatigues ''because we often have

military vehicles aboard.''

Girotto also said that when the men left the ferry they

abandoned the truck they had been used to tow the military-

looking vehicle saying, ''You can give it to Scalfaro,'' Head of

State Oscar Luigi Scalfaro.

Summing up the experience, the ferry boat captain said the

men who went on to occupy the square and belltower were ''crazy

guys who believe people think like they do.'' (END).

GY

09-MAG-97 13:30 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST.MARK'S OCCUPIED BY TERRORISTS...SECOND ADD

(ANSA) - Venice, May 9 - The eight separatist activists

were later revealed to have been behind recent pirate radio

transmissions which jammed public TV broadcasts in the Veneto

with separatist messages.

Interior Ministry Undersecretary Nicola Sinisi said police

had been on the trail of the jammers for weeks, and located them

two days ago.

Searches were carried out yesterday at the homes of five of

the gang, but they had already left for Venice.

The pirate radio transmitters were located in the towns of

Belluno and Verona.

Five of those arrested are from country towns near Padua,

and three are from villages near Verona.

Correcting earlier reports, police said the gang was armed

with a single MAB machine-gun with two magazines totalling 70

rounds.

The separatists also had equipment for jamming radio and TV

signals.

Sinisi, who flew in to Venice today with Deputy Premier

Walter Veltroni, said the police response to the gang might

serve as warning to ''those tempted to imitate them.''

(MORE).

GEE

09-MAG-97 16:37 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST.MARK'S OCCUPIED BY TERRORISTS...SECOND ADD (2)

He said the police action had shown that recent separatist

rumblings had not been under-estimated, but today's incident

could mean the police guard might have to be raised further.

In Rome, a majority of political reactions called for swift

action to grant more autonomy to local governments in the north,

but some, like opposition leader Silvio Berlusconi, blamed

Bossi's secessionist rhetoric for whipping up passions.

Berlusconi said the end result was that ''the less strong,

the less intelligent, the most exposed'' would end up paying for

Bossi's ''propaganda.''

Leading members of the Northern League described the

incident as ''halfway between a schoolboy prank and violent

intimidation,'' while one of the founders of the Venetian

separatist Liga Veneta said the gang's action was

''understandable, but not to be endorsed.''

Members of the leftwing PDS party called for a

''mobilisation'' against secession, while PDS leader Massimo

D'Alema called on Bossi to come back to the table of the

institutional reform talks D'Alema is chairing.

(MORE).

GEE

09-MAG-97 16:37 NNN

GEN: VENICE'S ST.MARK'S OCCUPIED BY TERRORISTS...SECOND ADD (3)

Bossi stalked out of the talks when they were set up,

declaring that he would have no truck with Rome political

''horse-trading.''

In other reactions, Green party MP Marco Boato recalled

that Italy's terrorism in the 70s and 80s, whether on the right

or left, grew out of such ''symbolic and '' incidents

as today's.

(END).

RED

09-MAG-97 17:45 NNN

GEN: COMMUNIQUE DEMANDS RELEASE OF VENICE ACTIVISTS

(ANSA) - Venice, May 9 - A leaflet demanding the release of

the eight separatist activists who occupied the bell tower in St

Mark's square in Venice early today was sent to the Ansa offices

in Rome today.

The message said that if the eight were not released within

48 hours ''we will respond to the violence of the Italian

occupiers in such a way as to discourage any other attempt to

violate our rights.''

The note was handed to magistrates investigating this

morning's assault, who said they could not exclude the

possibility that it was genuine.

If so it was a cause of concern since it suggested that

there was a larger organization behind the eight men.

The message accused the authorities of beating the eight

activists and putting them in isolation cells.

PAR

09-MAG-97 21:32 NNN

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:46:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: CORNIX applet

Comments: To: stutz@dsl.org

In a message dated 97-05-09 11:35:00 EDT, you write:

<< the Word is usually looked at as a huge

"chunk" of data, but really when you make use of the Word -- when you read

-- you look at it as moving pictures or as speech in time, >>

Mike:

As an English comp instructor for many years, from an academic point of view,

the chunking of ideas into syntatic sequences is the accepted pedagogy, but

maybe we've been wrong or maybe digital is as digital does or maybe we need

to get back to the Word. Like I said growing up trying to get through New

Jersey is a series of flashing signs, signals and symbols. Chunking sounds

better but who knows what's in store. A lot of students are fidgetal if not

digital with nary a thread to the past.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:03:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In a message dated 97-05-09 12:50:25 EDT, you write:

<< Pass the sick bag, Alice >>

Yes, and I never got car sick from being on the road. I've always had the

uneasy notion that Garrison Keilor would take over all of American

literature. It's something like Quayle being the quintessential American.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:08:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In-Reply-To: <970509180114_220008524@emout13.mail.aol.com>

What's everyone got against Garrison Keillor??

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:36:20 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Rinaldo Rasa

Gerry Nicosia wrote:

> May 9, 1997

>

> I suggest we make Rinaldo Rasa Poet Laureate of the Beat List. If

>we don't save Jack Kerouac's archive, his great cut-up poem of May 4 may be

>the best thing to come out of all these years of struggle.

> Rinaldo, piacere di fare la vostra conoscenza! Mio padre era

>siciliano, non ciprioto! Di quale parte d'italia lei vene?

> (Forgive my rusty Italian.)

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

>

Ciao Gerry,

i miei migliori amici sono calabresi e baresi, sono proprio

dalle tue parti. Sono ONORATO della Laurea di Poeta Beat che

tu proponi per la mia modesta partecipazione alla lista beat.

Ti ringrazio con affetto, e riconoscenza. Io abito a Venezia,

nella parte moderna, ma vicinissima al centro storico, appena

prima del Ponte della Liberta'. Come ogni buon italiano anch'io

ho avuto e ho parenti per il mondo, in Canada, SouthAfrica,

Svizzera, et cetera. Da quando scrivo sulla Beat-List pero' di

italiani ne ho visti pochi, chissa' perche'? My today venice

post is assuming that the "happening" or countercultural, or

ethnic event in Piazza San Marco is a feedback 'bout some

changin' in italian feeling of the things, the guys involved

in such "happening" (read please the ANSA report) are really people

that came from the land, the plane land of our italy, people

not lit or politicians... are them beat?

Hai nostalgia dell'Italia? e della Sicilia?

ti saluta con affetto il tuo "paesano" Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:44:36 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

>I am pleased with all the reviews. My only claim was to be a "Hobohemian"

writer, a

>word that I invented. Dr. Sax is a great book by a great writer.

>Charles Plymell

Charles-- May 9, 1997

As someone who's done a fair amount of Kerouac lit. criticism I'm

astonished by your grasp of DR SAX. What you say is not only solid

criticism but it's also fun to read. You ought to be pouring out stuff like

this in some regular column in a cutting-edge literary magazine (if there

are any today--maybe EXQUISITE CORPSE?) I remember your old COLD SPRING

JOURNAL. (Do I have the title right?--memory going in old age). Then your

stuff ought to be collected in a book of living first-person lit. criticism

as opposed to most of the dead 3rd-person academic stuff that gets published

regularly and kills rather than whets young people's interest.

Maybe work it all into a memoir of where you are now, what your new

literary insights are. I say all this not having read Last of the

Moccasins--I'm deprived. I'll try to find it in our used-book shops.

Thanks for your insights.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:08:29 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone [OFF TOPIC NON-BEAT]

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970508210411.19364B-100000@seka.nacs.net>

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> on about how much they "supported" sampling is what made this whole event so

> perverse in my eyes -- it made Bono and friends look like the depraved

> protagonist of Bret Easton Ellis' _American Psycho_, playing in his own

> scat.

Mind you, the only moment approaching a quote human unquote kind of

epiphany that the protagonist of American Psycho ever had was at a U2

concert... layers within layers there. (When I say "human", I mean

actually alive human) ; and it didn't last long.

Negativland probably represent the most striking success of U2's total

image makeover... I think U2 may have assimilated some ideas from the

people who sampled them, which at least makes for two-way trade. In

theory, anyhow. Well, history always was written by the winners...

Olly R.

____________________________________________________________________

"If I had a gun... I would give you your freedom."

____________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:13:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Street

Yr going to get bombed w/ replies probably, but in case not, here's the

skinny. You can thank the SF Board of Supervisors and the provoking hand of

Ferlinghetti. Kerouac Street nee Adler Alley was renamed in ceremony

October 1988. It's all recounted in *Names of 12 SF Streets Changed to Honor

Authors & Artists* publ City Lights, 1989.

> Hoping someone in the Bay Area will know this one. Saw Jack Kerouac

>Street recently in San Francisco. When was this street named and who was

>responsible? Was there some kind of ceremony? With beats? Was Kerouac

>family there? Or did the city crew

>just roll up and put up a sign?

>

>

\\|//

(o o)

-------------oOO--( )--OOo----------------

| My opinions and those

vj@primenet.com | of my employer are

Tempe, AZ | usually different,

| for which my mother

| apologizes.

------------ooooO---Ooooo---------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:41:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Where I am, Mr. Tabory

Dear Leon: May 9, 1997

It's understandable you are missing something; this whole thing has

grown ghastly complex after three and a half years of intense legal battles

moving from city to city across the United States.

I hardly said I don't act from a moral basis. My primary motivation

is moral; it sure as hell isn't financial, unless you (and Rod Anstee) can

figure out some benefit in losing money, which is all I've been doing lately.

Here's the thing. Mr. John Lash, Jan Kerouac's heir, working

closely with Mr. John Sampas, has taken his case to get me thrown out as Jan

Kerouac's literary executor to the appellate court in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

I cannot fight for Jack Kerouac's archive in Florida until that very same

Santa Fe court gives me the green light. That court may very well turn on a

red light, and my quest to save Jack Kerouac's archive will be over, finito,

gone, daddy.

Right now, I cannot do anything that Mr. Lash can use as ammunition

in Santa Fe, to show that I am less than competent as Ms. Kerouac's literary

executor. He'd love to tell the court that I have given away Ms. Kerouac's

last unpublished novel, which could have brought him X amount of dollars.

Once the Santa Fe court rules--and if they rule that I alone am

responsible for Jan's literary property--I will have a much freer hand in

getting her work published, getting her papers into a library, etc.

I.e., A WHOLE LOT is riding right now with the three-judge appellate

panel in Santa Fe.

Mr. Sampas has no such legal entanglements to deal with. He is an

heir as well as an executor and cannot be tossed out in the cold the way I

potentially can be. Jan did not make me her heir, and I did not want her

to. (At one point she talked about paying me for the 1000's of hours of

work I had done in her behalf, and I told her that the only way I could

prove the sincerity of my efforts to help her save her father's papers was

if I simply helped her as a friend. My favorite line to her was: "If you

win in Florida, buy me a dinner." However, the way Mr. Anstee talks, you'd

think she had left me half her estate.)

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:05:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Patti Smith Concert Posters

Dear Nancy:

Yes -- re: the concert posters. Send info re: arrangements when posters are

available.

Thanks,

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:12:04 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

Why, Nicosia, didn't you make it clear to Levi in the

>beginning why you asked him to remove the excerpt? It seems obvious to me

>why Levi was befuddled by you. I can almost bet that had you conducted

>yourself with a bit more tact, Levi would be one of your champions....

> I think it comes down to this: Be consistent, dammit!

>

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>

Dear Bruce Hartman: May 9, 1997

I don't know where you're coming from, and I will give you the

benefit of the doubt and suppose that you are just being misled by someone

who has found it in their interest to slander me. In this case, I really

don't know where the lie originated.

The fact is: I wrote to Levi Asher on July 27, 1996, explaining why

I couldn't let him print PARROT FEVER for free. I have a copy of the letter

in my files. I'll send you the whole thing if you need to hold it in your

hands to believe it. Here are some excerpts of what I wrote to Levi:

"I have talked the matter over with Jan's heirs, and their feeling

is that there should be payment for use of this piece. It is a substantial

piece--I figured about 6,400 words ... you have to understand, that it's one

thing to charge a nominal fee for anthologizing work that has been published

a relatively long time ago, and from which most commercial interest has

already been exploited; and quite another thing to let you have use of

material from a last unpublished novel ... I must, of course, insist that

you no longer run the piece on the Web ... I hope this hasn't struck you as

too hard a position, but it's part of my legally mandated job as literary

executor to protect the commercial rights of Jan Kerouac's heirs in her

literary properties. I'm certainly open to talking more about this with

you, if you need to. I'm also enclosing my piece about Jan, which you can

use on your Website."

Bear in mind, I said all this BEFORE MR. LASH (JAN'S HEIR) ACTUALLY

WENT TO COURT TO GET ME REMOVED AS LITERARY EXECUTOR--an action which has

made my position ten times more precarious.

It is really exhausting to have to keep answering false charges. I

don't see anyone throwing any charges at Mr. Sampas. He probably suns

himself on a Caribbean beach and laughs as everybody and his brother takes

potshots at me. DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAIR???

On top of everything, I don't think Mr. Asher even used my own piece

on Jan Kerouac, which I offered him for free. How come???

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:45:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Levi's Question

>....

>Unless you explain it better to me, this is the conclusion that I am

>forced to live with. And if that is the case then I must conclude that

>you are likely yourself to do things that are no more right than what

>you tell us to expect from your opponents.

>

>I hope that you will show me where I am wrong here....

(Leon Tabory)

May 9, 1997

Dear Leon:

The answer to Levi was just given, finally, in a post entitled "I

Swore I'd Stay out of this But..."

Sorry about being late. Sore throat, cold, and watching my 2 year

old every nite this week. Plus a few other dozen things.

This whole thing troubles me though. I wrote Levi that detailed

letter about why he had to take PARROT FEVER off his website last July. Why

should I have to be explaining this all over again now?

The question is supposed to be, when is the Kerouac Archive going to

be preserved and made accessible to scholars; or, if it's not, then what

justification does Mr. Sampas have for not putting it in a library?

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:57:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Kerouac Question

Dear Bill, May 9, 1997

Well I apologize for delay, but if you've been following this list,

you realize I've turned into Audie Murphy as single-handed gunslinger

answering shots from about 30 different directions.

It seems you've already got your answer elsewhere. My recollection

is that Jack WAS ARRESTED AS A MATERIAL WITNESS. That's what I wrote in

MEMORY BABE, and at the time, I had access to all the clippings of Lucien's

arrest. (All that stuff is now under seal in the closed MEMORY BABE

collection at U, Mass, Lowell, regrettably.)

(Thank Mr. Sampas.)

Remember, I'm not a lawyer. Sometimes I wish I was. It'd save me

at least $200 an hour.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:07:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

>

>

>I had not heard the Edie K had died, when did that happen?

>

Dear Patricia Elliott:

Thanks for your good words.

Edie died in the fall of 1993, of heart trouble and diabetes. She

had written to the Lowell Kerouac Committee that summer to ask if she could

be invited to participate in Kerouac Week in October of that year. They did

not answer on that subject, but asked if they could use her photo of Jack as

a seaman as logo on their official T-shirt. Of course, Edie said yes (she

gave away everything, never made money off JK.) So the Lowell Kerouac

Committee missed their chance to have Edie as a guest.

If anyone doubts this, it will be confirmed by Tim Moran, Edie's

executor.

(Sorry for being longwinded, but I'm still pissed about Chaput

asking why I never donated to their committee.)

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:40:46 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Street

Ron,

Jack Kerouac Alley, would probably be more like it, right there by

Vesuvio and City Lights. Don't remember the movers and shakers for this

event. SF has been renaming little streets for literary lights, just

named a part of the Embarcadero for Herb Caen. As far as I know JK is

the first Beat to get his own street sign.

J Stauffer

Ron Guest wrote:

>

> Hoping someone in the Bay Area will know this one. Saw Jack Kerouac

> Street recently in San Francisco. When was this street named and who was

> responsible? Was there some kind of ceremony? With beats? Was Kerouac

> family there? Or did the city crew

> just roll up and put up a sign?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 19:26:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: ORIGINAL vs COPY

At 07:47 PM 5/6/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Just an aside, what would happen if copies of all of Kerouac's papers end up

>in a Library, and the originals are sold off to the highest buyer (or

>whoever).

>

>Is it enough to just have the words-- complete, that are accessible to the

>public? DO the originals have to be available?

>

>This is a philosophical question.

>

>enjoy, Attila

>

Dear Attila, May 9, 1997

I like your questions!!! For one, they not personal attacks, like

why don't I open my checkbook to the Lowell Kerouac Committee.

I have conferred with a lot of library directors and archivists

about this very same question. A few who have confirmed the following

answer are: Tom Staley of Univ. of Texas, Humanities Research Center; Tony

Bliss of Bancroft, Berkeley; and Matthew Bruccoli of Univ. of South Carolina.

The answer is: no librarian worth his salt will deal with xeroxes

unless THAT IS ALL THAT IS AVAILABLE. Copies are invariably imperfect;

someone leaves something out; someone mixes up the pages. Plus original

manuscripts, esp. Kerouac's, which were often in pencil, or corrected in

pencil, have faded over the years, and xeroxes will not pick up every single

faded pencil mark. A key word might be lost, that changes our whole

interpretation of what Kerouac thought about a particular subject. How

often has someone sent you a xerox of an article you want to read, only to

find that the last word in each line has been cut off by the copying machine?

THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE IN SCHOLARSHIP FOR HAVING THE ORIGINAL PAPERS

AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:07:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Gregorio <Subterr7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

I have nothing against him, but the image of a lp "Rod Mckuen Reads Allen

Ginsberg," comes to mind.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:13:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >I had not heard the Edie K had died, when did that happen?

> >

> Dear Patricia Elliott:

> Thanks for your good words.

> Edie died in the fall of 1993, of heart trouble and diabetes. She...

by chance I spent a lot of time with edie during the week of river city

reunion . she was a brassy broad, intelligent with her chin up. I

always felt that their marriage was a result of a real relationship.

She certainly was generous and i am sorry to hear she is gone. We

weren't "friends" but i was an unofficial property person for the

reunion, i have lots of used stuff. She needed some extra carry on

luggage when she was leaving, i took samples over to her and we ended up

talking the evening away. She seemed to me that she would stand toe to

toe to someone. She was with a dreadful young man, some friend. She

certainly spoke unvarnished.

I appreciate you noticing that one line.

I believe william and james were always kind to her.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:20:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Driving Through Mythical America

Nick,

I jumped when I saw "On The Road with Jack and Neal and a

couple of cute furry friends Driving Through Mythical America!" You grew up

in England, right? I was jerked back to 1971 and a great weird recording

called "Driving Through Mythical America" - lyrics by Clive James, singing

by Pete Atkin. The title song was a road song dealing partly with Kent

State.... nothin' Beat about it htough although a cool song.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:22:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

Gerry:

Thank you kindly. As they say out in Kansas. Yes it was Coldspring. I

enjoyed reading the book and could see how many scholars are missing a great

opportunity. I thought it was the best example of asbstract

expressionism-Motherwell/De Kooning that I's seen. I don't know why

literature isn't presented with art as music as it used to be in some canons.

That would be fun. I l earned a great deal about the regionalism that many

Easterners take for granted as well as the fact that there is a more active

literati compared to the midwest and west. As a westerner, I had more

literary affinity with Neal and Burroughs, but I just now appreciated K's New

Englandness. When you do read my book (new edition just out..ahem..) you'll

may sense the regional differences. I was particularly impressed by K's

discription of the March weather in New England. I like the city, but I never

quite feel at home in these old mountains and woods. I've lived here almost

30 years and still think Cooperstown is north of Cherry Valley but it is

south. In Kansas I could just look towards New England, California, Mexico or

Canada to know what direction I'm going. Speaking of which I'm driving to

Montana next week then back to North Carolina. Pam will be reading the

beat-list. I wish you well in the estate situation.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:27:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In a message dated 97-05-09 21:32:49 EDT, you write:

<< What's everyone got against Garrison Keillor?? >>

Obviously nothing if you're from Lake Wobegon.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:31:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

In a message dated 97-05-09 20:30:29 EDT, you write:

<< I'll try to find it in our used-book shops.

Thanks for your insights.

Best, Gerry Nicosia >>

Gerry:

Last of Moccasins has been reprinted. We have it in stock for $12.00 new

paper or $20 signed HC...

JW

WRB

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:55:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

In a message dated 97-05-09 23:37:24 EDT, you write:

<< DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAIR??? >>

That's a reasonable question when one is dumped on in the literary world. We

tend to hold ideals that in our authors that become very mercurial. I've seen

a lot happen in the literary world. It's not just the beat generation. I've

seen so many unexplainable things happen and have built them up in my mind

either correctly or incorrectly that sometimes I have to make a conscious

effort to forget them and I love to hold grudges.

One person who has been dumped on especially by the academe and main stream

press is Robert Peters. I'll post this entry that involves principles of the

beat-list of his new book Hunting the Snark of which Robert Bly said: "I

don't think people should be so incensed at Robert Peters. It's a critic's

job to be nasty--he's not a mother or an uncle."

In it are his classifications: The Billy the Kid Poem; the Dazzle Poem; the

Disney Poem; the Iowa Workshop Poem; the Trapped Wife Poem; Academic Sleaze,

Genteel Buccolism. Such are the some of the hundred plus classifications

Peters' uses in Hunting the Snark...always lucid and charming approach to

modern American poetry. Peters sets forth precise and cogent commentary on

such luminaries as Pound, cummings, Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Olsen, Bukowski

to name a few, but lesser known poets such as Alfred Starr Hamilton and

Charles Plymell are abundantly represented here, many given critical

attention for the first time. Available from Avisson Press, Inc. 3007

Taliaferro Rd. Greensboro, NC 27408 $20.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:43:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Jack's Intentions

....

>Gerry says the warrant isn't important, a copy will do fine. How is

>this different than asserting that the original texts aren't important,

>scholars can do just as well with copies? I guess I'm missing something

>here. We also hear that it is wrong to keep letters from being

>published, presumably so as not to affect living people....

>

>J Stauffer

>

James, when art experts study the work of Toulouse-Lautrec, they look at

canvases, sketchbooks, unfinished paintings. The originals can sometimes

reveal one drawing or painting layered on top of another. (See my post to

Attila about the importance of original manuscripts, as opposed to xeroxes.)

They don't need to see his medical test result showing he had syphilis. On

the other hand, a biographer would like to see that test result, but a xerox

will do just as well for him.

You'll notice I haven't yelled about Mr. Sampas selling off

Kerouac's shoes and overcoat; but I have complained about him selling off

Kerouac's library, with personal annotations written in the margins of the

books.

The Sampases bought that warrant from the dealer Jan brought it to,

who must've called them up immediately about it, and they have been gloating

over it ever since. But does anyone ever bring up the background? The fact

that NYU, in their Beat conference headed by Sampas's own Ann Charters, put

the financial screws on Jan and me, making it almost impossible for us to come?

My father, who was a street fighter in the old Italian neighborhood,

Taylor Street, in Chicago, taught me one of the first rules of the street:

"When three guys gang up on one guy, the one guy can pick up a brick ...."

Now Jan and I were definitely ganged up on, and that warrant was her

brick.

Every participant in the 1994 NYU Beat conference got their airfare

paid, plus a nice room at the University Suites--every participant except

Jan and me. We told them we were bringing Paul Blake III (Paul Jr's son),

and nothing was offered for him either. Ann Charters told us all the rooms

were filled up at the University Suites. However, Doug Brinkley (of MAGIC

BUS fame), who was himself given a room at the University Suites, told us

there were EIGHT EMPTY ROOMS there. Even Corso's two young sons were given

rooms and airfare--but not Jan, me, or Paul Blake III.

For Jan, this was a real hardship, as she had to do dialysis every

six hours. If she had been staying at the university suites, she could have

easily gotten back to her room between sessions. As it was, she had to cab

back and forth to her room at the Gramercy Park Hotel, and missed a couple

of dialyses during the course of the conference, leaving her very weak.

I paid my own way, but Jan paid for Paul Blake III. If NYU had

accorded Jan and Paul the same courtesy as all the other participants, she

wouldn't have had to sell that warrant.

Capisc'?

As for the letters, my problem is not with any particular person who

may have asked not to be mentioned by name. My problem is that one man,

John Sampas, is continually the boss, saying what can be published of Jack

Kerouac's, what needs to be removed from Jack's writings, what biographers

and critics can write about him, etc. If they don't write what he likes,

they get hassled by his attorneys and/or agents, as my publisher has been,

as Steven Turner has been, as many others have been. One man, even the most

brilliant on earth, should not be in charge of interpreting Jack Kerouac to

all the rest of us.

That's why I left the Catholic Church, James. God bless the Pope,

I'm sure he's a good man, but I don't want him telling me what to do in

every aspect of my life.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:59:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat-L T-Shirt Update

Dear fellow Beat-L members:

I interrupt this Estate stuff to bring you all the latest skinny regarding

the all-important Beat-L T-Shirt...

After a few tries, S. Clay Wilson has come up with artwork that meets the

approval of the all mighty Beat Generation List T-Shirt Approval Committee -

that is, me!! But, of course, I must also run the artwork by Web Meister

William Gargan first for his final ok. Brooklyn College has the last word...

I am very happy with Wilson's contribution to Beatdom and I'm sure you all

will also enjoy the art chosen for the shirt. S. Clay's rough presentation

sketch is now being

finalized into camera-ready artwork. When the final art is completed, I get

the ok to proceed and the cost to purchase the shirt is determined, I'll

notify you with those details. The T-shirt artwork will be available for

viewing on the web soon - address to follow as soon as possible.

Now back to the action -

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:36:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

....

> Although these manuscripts were purchased primarily from one rare

>book and manuscript dealer, it has always been clear to the library that

>these manuscripts have as their provenance the estate of Jack Kerouac as

>represented by John Sampas. Furthermore,it has been similarly clear that Mr.

>Sampas would "like" all the Kerouac papers to come to The New York Public

>Library.

> The New York Public Library has signed a legal deposit agreement

>with Mr. Sampas to temporarily store the manuscript scroll of On the Road....

>

> Sincerely,

> Rodney Phillips

> Associate Director,

> Humanities & Social Sciences

>

>

.... Lowell Celebrates Kerouac ended their relationship

>with the National Park Service because in return for their support they

>wanted to dictate our program (like most government agencies). We chose to

>retain our independence. WE MADE THAT DECISION GERRY NOT THEM. We continue

>to have an amicable, but unofficial relationship with them.

>

Phil, May 9, 1997

I'm really tired of you pouring out nothing but lies and Sampas

propaganda. Go back to Mr. Sampas and tell him I'm thru wasting my time

with this stuff he gives you to post here..

I'm answering all the "real" questions--the honest, sincere ones

that I've been getting from Attila and many other people..

Sampas put Rodney Phillips up to that letter in the LOWELL SUN.

Phillips did Sampas a favor because he was hoping, at that time, that Sampas

really did intend to put all of Kerouac's papers in the New York Public

Library. Time has shown that Mr. Sampas had no such intention at all.

Notice how carefully Phillips words his letter:

"these manuscripts have as their provenance the estate of Jack Kerouac."

Provenance means origin.

Of course, if it's a Jack Kerouac manuscript, it originated in Jack

Kerouac's estate. SATORI IN PARIS actually came by way of Fred Jordan at

Grove Press. And, according to Weinberg, BOOK OF DREAMS and MEXICO CITY

BLUES were sold to a private individual, not a dealer. So stuff was later

resold to the New York Public Library--what does this prove? What does it

prove even if a few pieces actually were sold directly by Sampas? We know

that Kerouac retyped all of his novels many times, including ON THE ROAD.

If a library gets only one draft from Mr. Sampas, they haven't got enough

for scholars to study.

The whole archive needs to be put on deposit, thousands and

thousands of pieces of paper: manuscripts, retyped drafts, notebooks,

correspondence, etc. etc.. Mr. Sampas has been offering a piece here, a

piece there, and waiting for Jan's lawsuit to be dismissed.

Notice Phillips says they had an agreement with Sampas "to

temporarily store the manuscript scroll of ON THE ROAD." Really generous of

Mr. Sampas. What that meant was that HE didn't have to pay storage for it

for a while.

Now about the National Park ending its relationship with Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac!, I have copies of several of the complaints that were

filed with the National Park Service concerning this organization. Would

you like me to quote from one?

This is Brad Parker, President of the Lowell Corporation for the

Humanities, writing to Roger Kennedy of the National Park Service in

Washington, D.C., September 19, 1995:

"There has not, for years now, been any warm feeling between myself

and the local Kerouac group ... because one of that group tried to verbally

intimidate me in 1988 by telling me that if I did not co-operate with him

and his committee, I would become 'a voice crying in the wilderness,' that

people would play 'hardball' with me, and that the hall I had rented for my

public Kerouac event would be 'taken away' from my organization! More

recently, 1993, another member of that group verbally assaulted me in public

at one of the Kerouac events they were sponsoring. And his assault was

aimed at me ... because the biographer I had brought to town had approached

the stage to request that his speech of the following night be announced...."

There's a lot more. Care for me to keep going?

Or should we get Brad Parker on here himself?

As for Martha Mayo, yes, I talked to her, and she told me Mr. Sampas

and "one other person" had objected to the public having access to my MEMORY

BABE collection at U Mass, Lowell. However, Martha never seems able to come

up with the name of that other person.

And finally we learn that Mr. Sampas can't tell us when he's going

to put the Kerouac archive into a library because I'm a "slanderer." The

reason he never sues me for slander, however, is because what I'm saying is

the truth.

Besides, Phil, ain't that a non sequitur?

I'm going to bed.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:56:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg Memorial

Hi... i'm new. But I needed to respond to this:

<<For anyone who's interested, there will be a memorial service and concert

in Ann Arbor on May 24th in honor of Allen Ginsberg. Patti Smith and

Natalie merchant are playing and i think Anne Waldman is

speaking...There's also some sort of poetry

contest. As usual, tickets are available through Ticketmaster (does this

seem weird to anyone else??)>>

I just spent hours, wasted, trying to get bracelets, standing in lines,

making calls for ticketmaster to see bob dylan (ani difranco is opening) and

i hate ticketmaster, they are evil. tehy have this horrible hold on the

industry and, oh where are the communists where you need them? i

hatecapitalism...

Anyway...this whole list is gr8. you are all 100x more knowlegdable about

this beat stuff than me, but i like hearing your conversations. it's like

evesdropping ...

~jeanne

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:03:55 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg Memorial

Jeanne Vaccaro wrote:

>

> Hi... i'm new. But I needed to respond to this:

>

> <<For anyone who's interested, there will be a memorial service and concert

> in Ann Arbor on May 24th in honor of Allen Ginsberg. Patti Smith and

> Natalie merchant are playing and i think Anne Waldman is

> speaking...There's also some sort of poetry

> contest. As usual, tickets are available through Ticketmaster (does this

> seem weird to anyone else??)>>

>

> I just spent hours, wasted, trying to get bracelets, standing in lines,

> making calls for ticketmaster to see bob dylan (ani difranco is opening) and

> i hate ticketmaster, they are evil. tehy have this horrible hold on the

> industry and, oh where are the communists where you need them? i

> hatecapitalism...

>

> Anyway...this whole list is gr8. you are all 100x more knowlegdable about

> this beat stuff than me, but i like hearing your conversations. it's like

> evesdropping ...

>

> ~jeanne

hey jeanne, nice to meet you. it is a quiet day on the Beat-L and so

not a great day for eavesdropping.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:20:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat-L T-Shirt Update

Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

>

> Dear fellow Beat-L members:

>

> I interrupt this Estate stuff to bring you all the latest skinny regarding

> the all-important Beat-L T-Shirt...

mr j

> greeeeaaaaat sanka very much

p

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:26:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Marie <HOMZADM@HIRAM.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

>

> What's everyone got against Garrison Keillor??

>

please help my ignorance...the name sounds familiar, but who is he?

Diane.

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice said.

"You can't help that here. I'm mad, you're mad--"

"How do you know I'm mad?" asked Alice.

"Of course you're mad, or you wouldn't have come here. . . "

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:25:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Apology

May 10, 1997

Now it is my turn to apologize for getting hot under the collar with

Mr. Chaput last night. But I had some cause, besides being tired (and

unwell) after a long day of answering one personal attack after the next.

It is an insult to my integrity for him to presume that I have put 1000's of

hours of my time into two FICTITIOUS causes: the effort to preserve and make

available to scholars the Jack Kerouac archive; and the effort to restore

access to my own MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell. Furthermore, the

hurts that were done to Jan and me were not imaginary. It was no accident

that Jan Kerouac and I were removed by police from the Jack Kerouac

Conference at NYU, and it was not because of absentmindedness that the

Lowell Kerouac Committee failed to invite either Jan or me to Lowell for 8

years running--a policy of exclusion that began long before anything like a

lawsuit existed against the Sampases.

Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:53:39 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

i am dumb!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:52:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

At 10:36 PM 5/9/97 -0700, you wrote:

> ....

>> Although these manuscripts were purchased primarily from one rare

>>book and manuscript dealer, it has always been clear to the library that

>>these manuscripts have as their provenance the estate of Jack Kerouac as

>>represented by John Sampas. Furthermore,it has been similarly clear that Mr.

>>Sampas would "like" all the Kerouac papers to come to The New York Public

>>Library.

>> The New York Public Library has signed a legal deposit agreement

>>with Mr. Sampas to temporarily store the manuscript scroll of On the Road....

>>

>> Sincerely,

>> Rodney Phillips

>> Associate Director,

>> Humanities & Social Sciences

>>

>>

>.... Lowell Celebrates Kerouac ended their relationship

>>with the National Park Service because in return for their support they

>>wanted to dictate our program (like most government agencies). We chose to

>>retain our independence. WE MADE THAT DECISION GERRY NOT THEM. We continue

>>to have an amicable, but unofficial relationship with them.

I WILL PUT MY RESPONSE IN CAPS JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ.

AS A MATTER OF FACT GERRY I JUST GOT BACK FROM THE CLEANUP AT THE KEROUAC

PARK AND WE WERE WORKING HAND IN HAND WITH THE PARK SERVICE.THERE WERE OVER

50 PEOPLE HELPING OUT.

GERRY YOU SAID THEY CUT OUR FUNDING. LIKE I SAID THAT IS UNTRUE WE MADE THAT

DECISION NOT THEM.

>>

>

>Phil, May 9, 1997

> I'm really tired of you pouring out nothing but lies and Sampas

>propaganda. Go back to Mr. Sampas and tell him I'm thru wasting my time

>with this stuff he gives you to post here..

GERRY, THE POST READ THAT IT WAS IN THE LOWELL SUN NEWSPAPER SO WHY WOULD I

NEED TO GET IT FROM JOHN SAMPAS.

>Phillips did Sampas a favor because he was hoping, at that time, that Sampas

>really did intend to put all of Kerouac's papers in the New York Public

>Library.

NOW PHILLIPS IS IN A CONSPIRACY TOO GERRY I SEE WHAT ROD MEANT ABOUT YOU

BEING PARANOID. SO LETS ADD PHILLIPS TO YOUR CONSPIRATOR LIST, GINSBERG,ANN

CHARTERS, JOHN LASH, HUNTER THOMPSON,FERLINGHETTI,MARTHA MAYO, THE LOWELL

SUN ALL OF THE LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC COMMITTEE,AND ON AND ON............

GERRY IF ENOUGH PEOPLE TELL YOU YOUR DEAD. LAY DOWN.

Time has shown that Mr. Sampas had no such intention at all.

> Notice how carefully Phillips words his letter:

> "these manuscripts have as their provenance the estate of Jack

Kerouac."

> Provenance means origin.

I THINK WE KNOW WHAT PROVENANCE MEANS.

> Of course, if it's a Jack Kerouac manuscript, it originated in Jack

>Kerouac's estate. SATORI IN PARIS actually came by way of Fred Jordan at

>Grove Press. And, according to Weinberg, BOOK OF DREAMS and MEXICO CITY

>BLUES were sold to a private individual, not a dealer.

SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT A DEALER BUYS A MANUSCRIPT FROM JOHN SAMPAS AND

THEN TURNS AROUND AND SELLS IT TO NYPL FOR MORE MONEY. SO WHY WOULDN'T

SAMPAS SELL IT TO THE NYPL HIMSELF AND NOT LOSE THAT EXTRA MONEY? OR IS THE

DEALER LOSING MONEY AND JUST DOING IT OUT OF THE KINDNESS OF HIS HEART?

So stuff was later

>resold to the New York Public Library--what does this prove? What does it

>prove even if a few pieces actually were sold directly by Sampas?

NOW MAYBE HE DID SELL SOMETHING IS THAT A CONTRADICTION GERRY?

We know

>that Kerouac retyped all of his novels many times, including ON THE ROAD.

>If a library gets only one draft from Mr. Sampas, they haven't got enough

>for scholars to study.

GERRY YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT THE XEROX COPIES IS PRETTY PATHETIC. I THINK IF A

UNIVERSITY WERE TO COPY A MANUSCRIPT OR LETTER IT WOULDN'T MISS PAGES OR

WORDS COME ON GERRY ARE YOU FOR REAL?

> The whole archive needs to be put on deposit, thousands and

>thousands of pieces of paper: manuscripts, retyped drafts, notebooks,

>correspondence, etc. etc.. Mr. Sampas has been offering a piece here, a

>piece there, and waiting for Jan's lawsuit to be dismissed.

I THOUGHT YOU SAID HE HASN'T SOLD ANYTHING TO NYPL. NOW HE IS OFFERING A

PIECE HERE AND A PIECE THERE.

> Notice Phillips says they had an agreement with Sampas "to

>temporarily store the manuscript scroll of ON THE ROAD." Really generous of

>Mr. Sampas. What that meant was that HE didn't have to pay storage for it

>for a while.

SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.

> Now about the National Park ending its relationship with Lowell

>Celebrates Kerouac!, I have copies of several of the complaints that were

>filed with the National Park Service concerning this organization. Would

>you like me to quote from one?

> This is Brad Parker, President of the Lowell Corporation for the

>Humanities, writing to Roger Kennedy of the National Park Service in

>Washington, D.C., September 19, 1995:

I DON'T KNOW BRAD AND I HAVE NEVER MET HIM. HE HAS WRITTEN SOME GOOD KEROUAC

STUFF THOUGH. I HAVE HEARD THAT HE IS YOUR MOUTHPIECE IN LOWELL SO IT

DOESN'T SURPRISE ME ABOUT THIS LETTER.

> "There has not, for years now, been any warm feeling between myself

>and the local Kerouac group ... because one of that group tried to verbally

>intimidate me in 1988 by telling me that if I did not co-operate with him

>and his committee, I would become 'a voice crying in the wilderness,' that

>people would play 'hardball' with me, and that the hall I had rented for my

>public Kerouac event would be 'taken away' from my organization! More

>recently, 1993, another member of that group verbally assaulted me in public

>at one of the Kerouac events they were sponsoring. And his assault was

>aimed at me ... because the biographer I had brought to town had approached

>the stage to request that his speech of the following night be announced...."

OH MY GERRY THAT SOUNDS SO CRIMINAL!

> There's a lot more. Care for me to keep going?

NO I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE I'M GOING TO PUKE.

> Or should we get Brad Parker on here himself?

> As for Martha Mayo, yes, I talked to her, and she told me Mr. Sampas

>and "one other person" had objected to the public having access to my MEMORY

>BABE collection at U Mass, Lowell.

GERRY IT'S NOT YOUR MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE YOU SOLD IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER

REMEMBER(THE ONLY BIDDER THAT IS)

However, Martha never seems able to come

>up with the name of that other person.

> And finally we learn that Mr. Sampas can't tell us when he's going

>to put the Kerouac archive into a library because I'm a "slanderer." The

>reason he never sues me for slander, however, is because what I'm saying is

>the truth.

BE PATIENT GERRY HE WILL GET AROUND TO IT.

> Besides, Phil, ain't that a non sequitur? IT WOULD BE A NON

SEQUITUR IF GABRIEL HADN'T LEFT STELLA HER ESTATE. GERRY IF SOMEONE TOOK

CARE OF FOR SIX OR SEVEN YEARS WHEN YOU WERE INCAPABLE OF IT WOULD YOU

DISINHERIT THEM?

WHY DID JAN KEROUAC DISINHERIT PAUL BLAKE AND LEAVE NOTHING TO HIM?

> I'm going to bed.

GERRY DO THAT. YOU NEED THE REST SO YOU CAN UP AND DO SOME MORE "LOWELL

CELEBRATES KEROUAC" BASHING.

>

>GERRY I HAVE ABOUT HAD IT WITH YOU. YOU REALLY HAVE GONE OFF THE DEEP END

WITH THIS. IT'S AMUSING HOW YOU CAN TURN A QUESTION LIKE . "WHEN DID EDIE

PARKER DIE?" and "WAS JACK ARRESTED AS A MATERIAL WITNESS" INTO YOUR

CONSTANT HARPING ABOUT THE ESTATE MATTERS AND DUMPING ON L.C.K. ITS LIKE I

SAID IT'S YOUR ONLY AGENDA THESE DAYS SO I CAN SEE WHY L.C.K. WOULDN'T WANT

YOU TO SPEAK LIKE I SAID IT'S NOT "LOWELL CELEBRATES LAWSUITS" IT'S "LOWELL

CELEBRATES KEROUAC".

I CAN SEE IF I ASK YOU TO STOP BASHING A GROUP OF VOLUNTEERS LIKE L.C.K.YOU

ARE JUST GOING TO DO IT TEN TIMES HARDER.

DON'T BOTHER ME ANY MORE WITH YOUR PATHETIC RAMBLINGS. I SAID I DIDN'T WANT

TO GET IN A PISSING CONTEST WITH YOU BUT I GUESS I DID ANYWAY. IT LOOKS LIKE

YOU CAN PISS LONGER AND FARTHER THAN I SO HAVE A GOOD LIFE AND KEEP PISSING

JUST DON'T TURN INTO THE WIND. YOURS TRULY, PHIL CHAPUT

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:56:29 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

i am dumb!

i am dumb!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:04:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: commie or beat?

In-Reply-To: <970510105159_-164231775@emout02.mail.aol.com>

WHEN THE NEST IS EMPTY rants

Oh where are the beats where you need them?

Welcome to the club

where everybody cares

WHO u are

>oh where are the communists where you need them? i

>hatecapitalism...

>

>

>~jeanne

>

CHILDREN RETURN TO No 10

For the first time in nearly 50 years

children were preparing to move into 10 Downing Street

The children attended a lunch at

Downing Street to celebrate their victory.

Peeper's pence

said he

would punish himself by

halving his salary for six

month's for peeping into a

women's bath.

ANTIGANG PLEA

TO CHILDREN

FROM DEATH ROW

I never felt

remorse.

That was the

madness of it.

Roland Topor, french writer, died of a stroke in Paris

aged 59. he was born on january 7, 1938.

considered a

mediocre stu-

dent

Topor's books were of all kinds, they ranged

from Alice in the Letterland, a children

book

dedicated to Lewis Carroll, through a joke

book

with

one

word

per

page

his own death

after several days in a coma

following a brain haemorrhage

only half confirms one of

the aphorism

in

his recent book

"All's true that ends badly, & quickly."

i haven't lost

anyone yet

LITTLE VENICE

2 BED WHITE

STUCCO WHITE

PICTORESQUE

CANAL

plants which

grew in the churchyard

were thuoght to be

especially powerfull

Rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:15:46 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970509171539.7477A-100000@crystal.palace.net>

When Keillor and Co. organized a centennial birthday party for F. Scott

Fitzgerald a few months back, they cleaned up Fitzgerald's language to make

it politically correct, that is, sensitive, for a marathon reading in St.

Paul of The Great Gatsby, to some sneering behind the scenes about

censorship and a little bit of cautious protest publically. But it was

high toned farce at last, a party whose function was to serve Keillor's

literary sense of himself, not Fitzgerald. I would say, keep Keillor away

(you can't, really--he has sponsors) from the Beats; he thinks he's cool,

hip, yup, Beat, plus ordinary folks thrown in for good measure, but Lake

Woebegone is his imaginary capitol of a literary monarchy, for which he is

Lord of the Flies, which he controls absolutely, and which you enter at the

peril of your own voice. (He brooks no competition.) He's got voice, but

it ain't Beat--its post-Colonial egalitarianism with a Lutheran provincial

twist, as if his favorite drug were vaseline. He's Howl with scented

Kleenex and Lysol, for the humor, of course, Keillor being far superior to

his own jokes on the rest of us, yet still our local radio friend. I'm

sure he will do his best to bestow his literary largesse and bop husbandry

upon the Beats. // John M.

>granted i don'

>t like the idea either of rewriting his prose, but my suggestion of what

>to be done is -- if you dont like it ignore it! i mean, organize a

>PROTEST?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

>

>Eric

>

>On Fri, 9 May 1997, Bill Philibin wrote:

>

>> > featuring Garrison Keillor (!!??) and friends 'updating some classic OTR

>> > chapters for a '90s audience. (PMWIP)

>>

>> What ?!?!? Please say that this is a typo.... What kind of

> "changes"

>> are going to be done? Who is the "Author" of these so called Changes...

>> Is dean going to be looking to score some crack? IMHO OTR is already a

>> timeless piece of literary excellence...

>>

>> Is there any one we can write to to inquire about such things? And

> maybe

>> protest against the Changing of JKs words?

>>

>> You just ruined my year...

>>

>> -Bill

>>

>> [ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]

>> |"A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened

>> | into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the

>> | hope of greening the landscape of idea."

>> |

>> | -- John Ciardi

>> [--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

>>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:23:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

In a message dated 97-05-08 04:49:29 EDT, you write:

<< In my ignorance I guess I was under the mistaken impression that John

Sampas

was one of Stella's brothers, a guy pehaps in his 60-70's. >>

John Sampas is Stella's brother. Jim Sampas (a guy in his 30s or so) is a

nephew, I'm not sure what brother's son.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:47:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

In a message dated 97-05-10 18:24:42 EDT, you write:

<< Jim Sampas (a guy in his 30s or so) is a

nephew, I'm not sure what brother's son. >>

The dead one....

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:12:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: New JK books for Fall

..... the PW article says the following. (Disclaimer - *I* am

>not saying this, don't flame me)

>

>"After Kerouac's death, rights to his works were owned by his widow, Stella,

>wh refused to release any unpublished work. After Stella dies in 1989, John

>Sampa, executor of Kerouac's estate, and Lord {the agent Sterling Lord, JK's

>original agent, I think? NWW} sold to Viking all of Kerouac's unpublished

>materials."

>

>

>This suggests to me that, as I suggested last week, the publication of

>unreleased material is being controlled not by the estate as such, but as

>business decisions by the publisher. But i didn't know that 'all' the

>unpublished material had been sold - so presumably the estate has a mighty

>big advance for that already tucked away. It's hard to believe that Sterling

>Lord could really have allowed seven JK books to go into public domain (I'm

>not being antagonisitic, Gerry or disbelieving, it's just such a basic mistake)

>

Dear Nick, May 10, 1997

All I had heard was that Sampas made a 6 book deal for unpublished

Kerouac with Viking Penguin in 1993, just weeks before MEMORY BABE got

(coincidentally?) kicked out of Viking Penguin. This included the two

volumes of letters, SOME OF THE DHARMA, BOOK OF BLUES, WAKE UP, and one

other. I don't see how Sampas could sell them "all the unpublished Kerouac"

since there are literally hundreds of notebooks filled with writing that was

never published (many of them breast pocket notebooks), and future books

will have to be carved out of them by an astute editor. Can he sell books

that have not yet even been assembled???

OKAY, here's the report from Thomson & Thomson, considered the

foremost copyright research authority in the business. This particular

report was prepared for Jan's copyright lawyer Herbert Jacoby by Timothy J.

Herbert.

It lists the following books as without copyright renewal. All of

Kerouac's books fell under the old system, which meant the copyright had to

be renewed after 28 years from date of publication, with a one year grace

period. Since all of the books below are past that one year grace period,

they are, to the best of my knowledge, in public domain:

THE AMERICANS (only the text by Kerouac, not the photographs, of course)

BIG SUR

BOOK OF DREAMS (only the text published by City Lights in 1961; note

the original manuscript was much larger than what was published by City

Lights, and so much of the original text is still unpublished and belongs to

John Sampas.)

EXCERPTS FROM VISIONS OF CODY (the New Directions special edition,

published in 1960) (about 1/3 of the final text, I believe)

MAGGIE CASSIDY

PULL MY DAISY (only Jack's ad-libbed text by Grove Press, published

in 1961; the song was renewed by Amram et al. in 1988.)

SCRIPTURE OF THE GOLDEN ETERNITY

TRISTESSA

OLD ANGEL MIDNIGHT (the two excerpts published in BIG TABLE in 1959

and in EVERGREEN REVIEW in 1964.)

Well, you don't believe Sterling Lord is responsible? Jan signed an

agreement with the Sampases in 1986 (so that they would finally pay her the

royalty income she was due). That agreement confirmed that Stella and Jan

should split ownership of the copyright renewals, and it made Stella's

agent, Sterling Lord, Jan's agent too--for the rest of her life! It also

said that Lord would be "both parties' representative of said renewals."

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know who was responsible. Mr. Lord?

Mr. Sampas? Mr. Sampas's lawyer? There may be a malpractice suit here

worth millions to someone, but it requires investigation.

For the time being, I'm out of the loop, since Mr. Lash has got me

tied up in a challenge to my executorship in the appellate court of Santa

Fe, New Mexico.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:43:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: A Question for G. Nicosia/not Estate related!!

At 02:06 PM 5/9/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello Gerry,

>

>Someone recently passed on to me an extra copy of the Grove

>Press Publication of _Memory Babe_ (mine is

>is disarray) and as I was perusing this copy I noticed

>that pgs 97-128 were missing. There has been no

>tampering with this copy (pages ripped out, etc.), as far

>as I can tell because there would be obvious signs

>(the gap in the binding). Was there problems w/

>the orginal publishing, or did I stumble upon a

>misprint? Just curious.

>

>Thanx,

>Mike

>

Dear Mike, May 10, 1997

I never heard of such an error. Maybe some collector would want it

(like an error in a postage stamp?) You might ask Jeffrey Weinberg if book

misprints are as valuable as those in stamps and coins.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:05:01 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

At 11:27 PM 5/9/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-09 21:32:49 EDT, you write:

>

><< What's everyone got against Garrison Keillor?? >>

>Obviously nothing if you're from Lake Wobegon.

>C. Plymell

>

he ain't jack. . .

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:08:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

At 06:53 PM 5/10/97 +0200, you wrote:

>i am dumb!

>

>

congratulations! you win!

xxxooos.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:40:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

In a message dated 97-05-10 13:54:36 EDT, you write:

<< NOW PHILLIPS IS IN A CONSPIRACY TOO GERRY I SEE WHAT ROD MEANT ABOUT YOU

BEING PARANOID. SO LETS ADD PHILLIPS TO YOUR CONSPIRATOR LIST, GINSBERG,ANN

CHARTERS, JOHN LASH, HUNTER THOMPSON,FERLINGHETTI,MARTHA MAYO, THE LOWELL

SUN ALL OF THE LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC COMMITTEE,AND ON AND ON............

>>

Were all these people conspirators? I knew it all along! How many were

paranoids? And does paranoia prevent candor? I've seen all the double dealing

bullshit I need. Back to the Johnsons and the Shits. And let history mark you

who are fucking up.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:36:17 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "m.d.fascione" <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: test

test

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:50:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: your mail

In-Reply-To: <m0wQFOt-000rF2C@gpnet.it>

On Sat, 10 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> i am dumb!

i am birdbrain!

Was downtown (Cleveland) today for first meeting of Linux user's group, got

out at noon and wife & I drove past rockhall to see Kesey etc. Nothing

really going on (it'd rained all morning and was dark & gloomy) but some

band was playing in front of the building to about 150 people, mostly

neohippies and family yuppie types. No sign of new magic bus, Pranksters or

Kesey. Went home.

Drove back into town later in afternoon to stop by local music rag office

and pick up this month's review CDs; drove again past rockhall -- this time

it wasn't raining and no Kesey or Pranksters or bus, didn't get that close

this time but still had camera and thought about taking a picture of one of

the many day-glo yellow CLINTON SUCKS stickers plastered on telephone poles

down East 9th Street, main drag of town, last November election time which

nobody since has bothered to remove ... but was sick with headache too bad to

get out of the car, barely made it home, got a slow-leaking flat on one of

my tires and plan on drinking red wine tonight. Hope someone else has a

better Kesey story, 'cause I feel rotten today.

m

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:15:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

Gerry:

DORKS IN THE LIT BUSINESS. It was bad enough with back stabbing poets.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:15:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: your mail

i cannot belive you all actually KNOW all these artists...

oh man <sigh>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:18:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

In a message dated 97-05-09 20:30:29 EDT, you write:

<< As someone who's done a fair amount of Kerouac lit. criticism I'm

astonished by your grasp of DR SAX. What you say is not only solid

criticism but it's also fun to read. >>

Gerry:

So Pam said to me awhile ago when that Lost Generation thread came up -- that

movement's writers had similar styles. In the Beat writers there are similar

"trace elements" and varied styles, but my pleasure in reading Dr. Sax and

casting the whole critique in a poor metaphorically fight ring did produce

another insight: That is Kerouac was steeped in the university canons of the

50s, many of which were venturing into the expatriates, Joyce etal. It seems

Kerouac was swinging quite heavily, really fighting towards (for?) Epiphany,

which was a deeply engrained battle of the mind in the history of literature.

Kerouac's contemporaries may have dumped this so to speak, especially

Burroughs whose canvas was more like Pollocks until he went ballistics... as

future literacies seem look at the broad canvas conceptually or

minimallisctically, looping back upon the quantum, or whatever else has

mainframed Postmodernism to a mode of rhetoric rather than a movement.

I was also reminded while reading the book of just how Allen mimicked

Kerouac's "voice". I assume it was that way rather than the other way around.

Even in all the little innuendos and inventions.

Is it true what was in the Kesey post about Allen's last words?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:21:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: (Please Read) Re: New JK books for Fall

In a message dated 97-05-10 02:55:43 EDT, you write:

<< I have nothing against him, but the image of a lp "Rod Mckuen Reads Allen

Ginsberg," comes to mind. >>

Allen once said he would read with Rod McKuen and me. Rod McKuen read one of

my poems on the BBC. I thought he did a good job. No matter what you say Rod

McKuen is a poet and Garrison Keiler is not, if that's your line. He's a kind

lyric poet with lines no more pathetic than Bobby Dylan. He admits when he

does horseshit which few poets of fame will do, because they can sucker in

all the little pricks that don't know the difference. Nothing against you by

the way. You might read McKuen's Art of Catching Trains and you might take

Robert Peters quiz in that is in Where the Bees Suck and Hunting the Snark.

If you don't know who Robert Peters is, then I'm pretty much wasting my

time.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:25:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

PS: Michael Buchenroth has done a fantastic job building a site for me. He

has posted my Gale Research Contemporary Authors Autobiography, if you are

interested. It was also published in Beat Scene in serial form and in Atom

Mind. This will provide you with my background and my stint with the Beats.

Thanks. I can sympathize with the non-exclusive treatment that fame and its

baggage gobbles up, sometimes leaving one with one hand on the baggage and

one hand paying the ticketmaster. Maybe those gen-xs have something going

after all.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:33:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A Question for G. Nicosia/not Estate related!!

In a message dated 97-05-10 19:47:58 EDT, you write:

<< You might ask Jeffrey Weinberg if book

misprints are as valuable as those in stamps and coins. >>

In the case of the Memory Babe misprint, there is no extra worth attached to

such a copy...But you should send the copy to Gerry and ask him to sign it

for you anyway.

Just don't forget to add return postage....

JW

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:15:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: your mail

Red wine

Slow leaking tire

An old poster of Clinton sucks

One hand on your baggage

and the other trying to pay the ticketmaster

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:39:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

That'd be "Curly".

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:54:54 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Waste not, want NOT!!!! Get off the net and get smart then!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:55:28 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Greg Elwell <elwellgr@JUNO.COM>

Subject: William Burroughs on Beatles Cover

Hey,

Most of you probably noticed this already, but if you haven't, I figured

that I would point it out anyway. I was looking at the cover of "Sgt.

Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band" today, and I realized that William

Burroughs is actually on the cover.

Greg Elwell

elwellg@voicenet.com -or

elwellgr@juno.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:34:07 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: (Please Read) Re: JK books for fall

Hello Charles & All Concerned:

I hope the Garrison Keillor thing is purely rumor in regards to

having his hands on JK text or any other text for that matter. I

have to live in the same town with that moron. I'm not sure how well

any of you know how GK operates=97I for one know too much. During the

F.Scott Fitz. 100 th. Birthday Celebration the prick along with Pat

(PLEASE GIVE ME MONEY) Hampl, censored original text because of racial

passages-to quote: Pat Hampl: We wanted to make his text more

politically correct for a '90's audience. Of course, the media tried to

cover up as much shit on the local scene as possible but it didn't

work out the way they planned. Believe me, the TC area is just as guilty

as the next for white-washing facts. The fact is: GK, PH, & company are

dangerously conservative robots that would conform to anything with a

buck in it. We have a very strong sub-culture here that goes

unnoticed-and we like it that way. We write, paint, and sculpt for a

universal audience-I play the blues in the 'hood and hang

with the brothers on their turf. And the news from the hood in regards

to the above was just another slap in the face from GK & Company. In the

words of one young warrior: They treat us like kids hopin' we don't take

offence and do some L.A. burnin' "They all fucked-up Richard,

youzalwhite-you tell 'em for all us homies." Well, I told you, and I

really hope it's all a lot of B.S with those oh-so-politically-correct

jerks. My night is ruined. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!

Richard D. Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:25:36 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

Hello Charles,

I just recieved a letter from Robert Peters. He sends his best to you

and thanks for bringing us together. I'll be with Bly on June 5 th, and

of course there will be a lot of ball-busting from yours truly. I

can hardly wait to discuss Robert Peters "Hunting The Snark." For me,

an absolute brilliant piece of work. I had mentioned how bad I felt

having not included him in the "Scorched Hands" anthology. I wished

Simon Perchik would've brought it to my attention-a major oversight on

my part. He was amused, however, that I had several of his books

shelved in-between Maurice Maeterlinck, and Edgar Lee Masters. You

were right-on Charles about his "Selected Poems" from Asylumn Arts.

Along with the two titles from your Cherry Valley Editions (Ludwig of

Bavaria / & Blood Countess-both awesome works!) it's amazing how a man

of his stature can be-and is-neglected by the acadame and mainstream

press. I wonder why they're so afraid?

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:38:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

Dear Charles Plymell:

Thank you --- and Amen to your response!!

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:38:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Ciao, Rinaldo!

Caro Rinaldo, il 11 maggio, 1997

Mio padre Pietro, chi e morto in 1972, a parlato italiano

(siciliano) con mia nonna. Ho studiato italiano in scuola trenta anni fa,

ma io ho dimenticato molti parole. Non ho viaggiato in Italia mai, ma

voglio vedere Italia, e specialmente sicilia, avante che io moriro. Miei

parenti sono venuto di Cannicatti e Girgenti. Posso leggere italiano

meglio che posso scrivere in italiano, aloro lei puo mi scrivere in italiano

e io lo capisco (capiscero?) bene. Signor Sampas pensero che c'e un grande

cospirazione e egli andra trovare un traduttore per lui aiutare!

Lei verra in California qualche anno? Voglio cucinare un pasto

italiano per voi e presentare a voi mia sposa Elena e mia figlia Emilia, che

si chiama Wu Ji in cinese. Emilia (Wu Ji) a due anni, et noi l'abbiamo

adottato in Cina.

Spero che io non ho parlato troppo malamente!

A domani, Geraldo

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:07:17 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Here in Railroad Earth

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

David,

Well it was a good "Gun"--Randy Quaid as a lecherous country club

president with nice bits by Darrel Hannah, Sean Young and especially

Jenniffer Tilly with that voice and featuring handcuffs. Some good

writing. Reminds me why I love Southern women. All that evil

repartee.

Think I'll slide slowly off to sleep or else to nightmare. or else see

whether the TV talking heads still think that the S$M whiskey buggery is

going to put the kibbosh on a new stadium for the Niners, and be

reminded that I am missing the Black and White Ball on the waterfront in

SF. Oh well.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:10:46 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: mother's day

wishing all the Mother's on this list a very Happy day !!!

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:32:39 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: finishing of Desolation Angels ...

i'm becoming more Beat by the day it seems. i just concluded Desolation

Angels. it was a very very slow read for me b/c the bleakness and

peaceful sorrow, all these notions just hit so hard directly where i am

and have been for sometime...

even found myself jotting down notes on a pad (that i'll likely lose

soon) of phrases i identified with to the innards of my bones...

i think it is overdue at the library so i'll have to get it back soon.

B4 becoming more Beat-literature, i think i'll pull a couple books off

my shelf that have been gathering dust and look for insight ...

JK writes "Eternity? Here and Now? Wat they talkin about? " (his

imagination of his Mother's viewpoint) Mozart on his death bed must

have known this -- and Blaise de Pascal most of all ...

so the Kerouac's will get lugged back to the library and the Pascal will

come down from the shelf. I'll continue to lurk and jab here and there

while i give myself a pascalian-marrow-transfer and then move into

another phase of Beat-literacy when the operation is performed

successfully.

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:54:53 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: una poesia per Gerald Nicosia

In-Reply-To: <199705110538.WAA23046@denmark.it.earthlink.net>

Cari amici beat,

Toto' il grandissimo attore napoletano, interprete

di numerosi bellissimi film e' anche un poeta

ecco una sua poesia in dialetto napoletano

'O sole by Antonio De Curtis in arte Toto'

Io songo nato addo' sta 'casa 'o sole.

'O sole me cunosce 'a piccerillo;

'o primmo vaso 'nfronte - ero tantillo -

m'ha dato quanno stevo 'int' 'o spurtone.

E m'ha crisciuto dint' 'e braccia soje,

scanzanname 'a malanne e malatie.

'O sole! 'O sole... e' tutt'a vita mia...

Io senza 'o sole nun pozzo campa'.

--------------------

i hope Gerry has

no difficulties

to understand the

beatific feeling

of the Toto' verses

cari saluti da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:40:23 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: (rants) i'm a dumb dummy beet beat

>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:28:13 EDT

>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

>Subject: Re: I swore I'd stay out of this but what the hell

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>

>Timothy, what a wonderful idea! 100 messages x 250 or so a day. Just

remember

>to reply directly to Rinaldo not to the list.

>

>

be beet! be beat!! be bee!!! be!

Good Sunday time, Bill & Timothy,

i take a just week to reply to th

e above sentence, 'cuz of i must

have loooooooooooooong period for

a serious reflexion 'bout the flo

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood

(thnx L. for the suggestion...),n

w, now, my cells brain in a week

are diminished, & perhaps the rep

ly is better, i'm wonder to any

person invited some

body to crash

my email box, particu

larly a beat.

there's who thinks i'm tempted to

crash the beat-list server? to hac

k the listserver or destroy the li

st? the above sentence written by

Bill seems in this way, & don't

in my opinion knows what really is

communicate, writing even a zillion

of posts to the Beat-List really a

matter of life, of heart not only

spread light ray trhu fibre to &

from the ocean, & u are'nt consider

ing this purpose of the list, U had

invited a beat to destroy a mailbox

of another beat! what's etichs is

that?

RANTS by a not competent beat

dummy-run

is dumb,

dummy-run

is bum

dumb is dummy

dum is bum

yrs rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:43:51 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: (don't read this if u are'nt italian)

cari beat,

ci sono degli italiani sulla Beat-List,

se si' mandatemi un reply

rinaldo@gpnet.it

grazie in anticipo da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:01:18 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

In-Reply-To: <199705110008.RAA28975@calvin.usc.edu>

>At 06:53 PM 5/10/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>i am dumb!

>>

>>

>

>congratulations! you win!

>

>

>xxxooos.a.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:03:55 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Get off the net and get smart then!

>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:54:54 -0600

>Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>

>Waste not, want NOT!!!! Get off the net and get smart then!

>

>

i appreciate yr opinion sir...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:08:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg's archive

Dear Gerry:

Thanks for your reply concerning the date on the poster, Sept. makes more

sense. By that time Stanford had possession of Allen's papers, although it

will take them years and years to catalogue and make everything available.

That's just the fact of life with large collections and library staff

budgets. You might want to be careful about saying that Columbia didn't have

a chance to buy the collection. They had possession of the collection for

nearly 30 years and were offered it on several occasions. They bought only

small groups of materials, i.e. the Kerouac letters to Allen, but they never

were able to make a commitment to buying the entire collection. In truth,

Allen always wanted his papers to be there, he had strong feelings for

Columbia, but again, what would you have had him do? Give his papers to

Columbia and live in his 4th floor walk-up until he died of a heart attack on

the stairway? [No one guessed he would die anyway of liver cancer, or he

might have done something different with the collection] He used the money

to support his friends, as usual, and buy an apartment with an elevator (the

one requirement that he had). In addition to that he was finding it

increasing difficult to administer his own archive and that was becoming

expensive and time-consuming. Each person who wanted access to the

collection had to go through Allen, since Columbia did not own it, they

needed his written permission for each person. You must have needed the same

okay from the Ginsberg office. You can imagine how much time this required

for all the requests Allen received. Now Stanford handles all that and

access is much easier and more democratic.

As far as selling to the Japanese, I'm wondering if you thought that

statement over before you said it? Why would it be wrong for a Japanese

University to buy the Ginsberg or Kerouac collection? It would be more

inconvenient for you or me to use the materials, but easier for Japanese

scholars. Isn't this pretty close to being a racist comment? I don't refuse

to look at the Rembrandt's or Van Gogh's at the Metropolitan Museum even

though they were taken from Europe by American industrialists at the turn of

the century with loads of cash. Should I only look at the paintings on trips

to the Netherlands? Maybe time for a reality check about money, why

shouldn't people (Ginsberg, Sampas family, Jan, you, me) sell things for

their true value? At least in Allen's case, he did a lot of good work with

that money, i.e. giving all the money from the Gap ad to Naropa Institute;

supporting a legion of poets over the past 40 years, paying me to organize

his photo collection, etc. We may not like the decisions people make, they

may sell items to people in the Middle East, Japan or Timbuktu, but if they

legitimately own something they have the right to do with it what they will.

I love the work of the Beats, obviously, but I don't think their papers fall

into the category of "national treasures". They're world-wide treasures.

I hope you'll try not to bring Ginsberg into this too much since he isn't

around to add any light on the situation. Your earlier mention that Allen

"refused" to help Jan puzzled me a little. Did he really "refuse" or was he

just too busy to respond to your request at that time. Doesn't really sound

like Allen to refuse to help anyone, does it?

How did I get going on that? Hope all goes smoothly in your quest to verify

the legitimate owners of the Kerouac materials.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:11:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Literary History of the Beats

Dear Clay:

No truth on this publication. Allen has done a series of lectures on the

History of the Beat Generation which could someday appear as a book, but

there is nothing in the works.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:07:57 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: your mail

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970510204212.1796C-100000@seka.nacs.net>

At 20.50 10/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>On Sat, 10 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

>> i am dumb!

>

>i am birdbrain!

>

>

>Was downtown (Cleveland) today for first meeting of Linux user's group, got

>out at noon and wife & I drove past rockhall to see Kesey etc. Nothing

>really going on (it'd rained all morning and was dark & gloomy) but some

>band was playing in front of the building to about 150 people, mostly

>neohippies and family yuppie types. No sign of new magic bus, Pranksters or

>Kesey. Went home.

>

>Drove back into town later in afternoon to stop by local music rag office

>and pick up this month's review CDs; drove again past rockhall -- this time

>it wasn't raining and no Kesey or Pranksters or bus, didn't get that close

>this time but still had camera and thought about taking a picture of one of

>the many day-glo yellow CLINTON SUCKS stickers plastered on telephone poles

>down East 9th Street, main drag of town, last November election time which

>nobody since has bothered to remove ... but was sick with headache too bad to

>get out of the car, barely made it home, got a slow-leaking flat on one of

>my tires and plan on drinking red wine tonight. Hope someone else has a

>better Kesey story, 'cause I feel rotten today.

>

>m

>

Kesey story is life!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:11:49 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: mother's day

>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:10:46 -0500

>Reply-To: race@midusa.net

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

>Subject: mother's day

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>

>wishing all the Mother's on this list a very Happy day !!!

>

>david rhaesa

>

me too,

my mother

born

in 1926

in

green

mountains

in

the

italian

alpine

lands

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:24:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

Phil,

Why are you copying your own posts and then responding to your own words? Is

this supposed to bolster your argument?

Also, why not try a new line of attack? Your constant SHOUTING of the same

themes adds nothing new to the debate. You say Gerry is trying to tear

people down, but that's all I see you doing... attacking him, and not very

well at that. Your posts look like an attempt to simply take Nicosia "off

message"... to muddy up the works with empty accusations, forcing him to deal

with issues that have little to do with what is really important.

Phil, why not interject something Positive into the mix? Whether he's right

or wrong about the will being forged, Gerry is at least trying to do what he

can with his attempt to keep the archives preserved forever. You even

complimented him on that yourself in your post dated 4/30/97. What are you

doing besides hammering on Gerry?

Phil, in that same post you indicated you wanted to help the situation in

some fashion.

>"What, Gerry, will it take for you to end your feud with the Sampas family?

Tell me,

>maybe I can help.".

You seemed to indicate a willingness to act as go between with Nicosia and

Sampas. Do you see Sampas around town? Do you talk to him regularly? Are

you really in a position to somehow try to broker a settlement?

I trust if you're really in a position to do something positive you will make

the attempt and keep all of us on the Beat-L posted. What do you say?

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:15:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>

Subject: linux

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970511150757.00698810@pop.gpnet.it>

sorry to be off-subject.

Just curious. How many Linux users are there on Beat-L?

-j-EnnIfEr c.

> >Was downtown (Cleveland) today for first meeting of Linux user's group, got

> >out at noon and wife & I drove past rockhall to see Kesey etc. Nothing

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:05:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

At 11:24 AM 5/11/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Phil,

>

>Why are you copying your own posts and then responding to your own words?

Is this supposed to bolster your argument?

>

Jerry, I respond by hitting reply on my mailbox and the entire text of

Gerry's message appears. Then I use caps to make it easier for people to see

my response and I even state that at the beginning of the post. I realize

that using all caps is not proper netiquette. IT'S NOT SHOUTING. That is why

I make the statement at the beginning of the post.

>

>Also, why not try a new line of attack? Your constant SHOUTING of the same

>themes adds nothing new to the debate. You say Gerry is trying to tear

>people down, but that's all I see you doing... attacking him, and not very

>well at that. Your posts look like an attempt to simply take Nicosia "off

>message"... to muddy up the works with empty accusations, forcing him to deal

>with issues that have little to do with what is really important.

>

>Phil, why not interject something Positive into the mix? Whether he's

right or wrong about the will being forged, Gerry is at least trying to do

what he can with his attempt to keep the archives preserved forever.

Big deal he wants the archives preserved forever. Everyone on this list

would like the archives preserved forever. I would like all great authors

works preserved forever. Does that make me some big hero? I also would like

all of Bill Gates money to go to fighting aids. I would also like world

peace, to end hunger, whatever. Why wouldn't you think John Sampas would

want the archive preserved forever.

I AM doing something positive by working hard with "Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac" to promote Kerouac. He is doing all he can to destroy

L.C.K. How, may I ask is this helping his cause of getting the archives

preserved forever. He wants John Sampas to give Paul Blake Jr. money when

Jan Kerouac herself didn't leave him anything at all. She disinherited him.

> You even complimented him on that yourself in your post dated 4/30/97.

What are you doing besides hammering on Gerry? Phil, in that same post you

indicated you wanted to help the situation in some fashion.

Your right I give credit where credit is due. But if someone lies about the

facts constantly and relates people to Hitler what hope is there of a mutual

agreement?

>>"What, Gerry, will it take for you to end your feud with the Sampas

family? Tell me,maybe I can help.".

>You seemed to indicate a willingness to act as go between with Nicosia and

>Sampas. Do you see Sampas around town? Do you talk to him regularly? Are

>you really in a position to somehow try to broker a settlement?

Of course I know him. Yes I see him around town. Yes I talk to him. Yes I'm

sure Gerry will say that's why I am doing this. I am my own man and this is

what I believe not what John Sampas tells me to say like Gerry would lead

you to believe. I say what I think nobody puts me up to anything. Yes I am

in a position to help but Gerry's position is that Stella is a criminal and

that she forged the will. If you knew Stella Kerouac you would know how

ridiculously far fetched this is. How can anyone smooth something like that

over? That is his main argument and it is a preposterous and totally un

logical one. Gerry is so frustrated by the fact that Jack didn't leave Jan

or Paul Blake anything. Jack Kerouac is the only one to blame for this. Not

the Sampas family.

Gerry knows quite well that John Sampas has placed numerous items in the

Berg collection at the NYPL. I have in front of me eight pages of items that

the Sampas family has placed in the Berg collection of NYPL. Why does he

distort the truth and act like the Sampas family has never done anything

good. He also knows that John didn't shut down the archive at U-Lowell. But

he continues to lie about the issues to make himself look like a big hero.

You tell me what I can do and I will do everything I can but I have to say I

am very pessimistic about the outcome.

>I trust if you're really in a position to do something positive you will

make the attempt and keep all of us on the Beat-L posted. What do you say?

I say start by telling Gerry to stop bashing people like L.C.K. I can assure

you many of the hard working volunteers (especially the young ones) have

never even heard of Nicosia or Sampas. So what does he want. Maybe we should

just dissolve the entire organization and not promote Kerouac at all. Is

that what he wants. Even if the Sampas family had never given one red cent

to promote the festival. Gerry's agenda of promoting a lawsuit would not be

appropriate for a Kerouac celebration and I think the members of the beat-l

would agree. Phil Chaput-Lowell Mass.

P.S. By the way can you send me catalog Jerry? My address is:

Philip Chaput

19 Wannalancit St.

Lowell, Mass.01854

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:13:56 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: refrain

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970511170555.0068dd8c@pop.tiac.net>

Cari amici beat,

nella mia mente si aggira questo ritornello

refrain

my darling child

my darling baby

my darling child

my darling baby

like a swing...

ripetuto all'infinito,

ricorda la madre, alla quale Giuseppe Ungaretti,

the poet who stand up as friend with Allen Ginsberg,

dedica una poesia bellissima che ora trascrivo:

LA MADRE

1930

E il cuore quando d'un ultimo battito

Avra' fatto cadere il muro d'ombra,

Per condurmi, Madre, sino al Signore,

Come una volta mi darai la mano.

In ginocchio, decisa,

Sarai una statua davanti all'Eterno,

Come gia' ti vedeva

Quando eri ancora in vita.

Alzerai tremante le vecchie braccia,

Come quando spirasti

Dicendo: Mio Dio, eccomi.

E solo quando m'avra' perdonato,

Ti verra' desiderio di guardarmi.

Ricorderai d'avermi atteso tanto,

E avrai negli occhi un rapido sospiro.

i hope there's

an american

translation

of this

wonder poem,

yr rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:53:21 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Inadvertent message

I would like to apologize for my late post last night--backchannel late

night ramblings inadvertently posted to the list by this bumbling

Beatler

Happy Mothers Day to the Mothers! and Frank Zappa.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:51:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970511170555.0068dd8c@pop.tiac.net>

hey all...

I've been silently listening to this argument since it started, and while

i believe wholeheartedly in free exchange and defense of postion, these

flamings (whether intentional or not) aren't constructive to the probelm

at hand... Gerry, and Phil have made both thier positions abundantly

clear, and I think they both have their points... but at this point in the

discussion, there is only 2 ways to proceed:

1) work towards some kind of compromise, because it doens't look like

either side will win, and all of us will lose out in the end.

2) walk away from the table and leave it to the lawyers, becasue they're

the only ones who will benefit from all this hooha, and agan, we ALL LOSE

OUT.

I am not trying to jump on anyone's case, I just would like to see the

discusison go somewhere besides in circles.

from the peanut gallery,

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:25:33 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Know beat, what of I do?

At 02:40 PM 5/11/97 +0200, you wrote:

> RANTS by a not competent beat

>

> dummy-run

> is dumb,

>

> dummy-run

> is bum

>

> dumb is dummy

> dum is bum

>

You're right, I am beat Beat BEAT

Apologies Angels Avatars Anachronisms Allegories

Not a one 'til we deme it so

I'm off. always a little off.

Please accept my ...uh... anachronisms?

Felicitations you bring out the beat in me

Can do? beater than this ....a primal Survibrations

My Heart, a Slave? Beates

What do I know? Thee Creates

Those who watch us, tax us

Disciplinus -- do we learn? Latin word.

Quintessential Dan -is he quintessential WASP

Is WASP quintenssental Roman? Is color prettinent,

or else sound?

Aint Rancisco the pinnacle of evolution

other metro's

nipping jealously at the Golden Calves

Do Sugar Loaf Intentions count? (One... two..., one two three ! Color!)

Lombardy misquoted? Win the real game -- subscribe now!

What do I know of beat? My Heart, a Slave?

Repeat a good line. I saw the best generations of my mind

Narcissus -tically.

If only I could see it your way

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

right focus on them."

-- Mark Twain, 1906

quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:00:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970511170555.0068dd8c@pop.tiac.net>

>At 11:24 AM 5/11/97 -0400, you :

>Phil Chaput wrote,

>But if someone lies about the

>facts constantly and relates people to Hitler what hope is there of a mutual

>agreement?

You should re-read that post. You have it wrong.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:36:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Pranksters hit Cleveland

Kesey and the Pranksters hit Cleveland about 2:30 in the afternoon, just after

Donavan finished a set (which I missed). A good size crowd cheered ( I am no

good at guessing numbers) as they pulled up with about five people on the roof,

one waving a large American flag. Ken Babbs took to the microphone for a bit

while they de-bussed and answered some questions. Country Joe came on and did a

great set including the Woodstock version of the FISH CHEER. After Joe the

Pranksters came on and Ken led then in a version of G-L-O-R-I-A.

Big Brother and the Holding Company finished up with a Janis clone who was

actually pretty good. I thought it was a bit depressing though, to go and make

a living this way with the Janis clone but hopefully, they do it only on

special occaisions.

The reception was from 7-9 and was fun because you got to see the musuem

menbers in their glitzy wear contrasted with the Pranksters, still in

Prankster-wear. I asked Ken Babbs about joining BEAT-L and he said

"Yeah...someday maybe..." he was pretty tired and had had a few drinks so who

knows. Kesey was asleep and showewd up later on and by that time, I forgot to

ask him about joining BEAT-L. They fired up the "Thunder Machine" which is a

combination go-cart and one-man-band. Ken was inside speaking through a

microphone which boomed through the whole musuem. Babbs was another microphone

while someone plucked on some stings on the side while another beat on the

built-in drum. The few leftover Pranksters took some of Ken's weed and fired up

a big bowl, damn, it was a pretty fine time, the food was good and the booze

was un-limited.

AS for the exhibit, I WANT TO TAKE YOU HIGHER, is well worth a look if you are

in the Cleveland area. It was not as extensive as I thought but what they had

was great....Some Hunter Thompson letters, the guitar Lennon used during his

and Yoko's 8 day bed-in, a lot of Bill Graham's stuff, Mouse Studio posters,

you get the picture...

Finally, Kesey's play TWISTER will open in NYC in about a month. Viking will

release the combo book and video at about the same time. Excuse the lame

description of the events but I am still a bit tired. When I finally left the

reception, the bus was still parked out front in the dark, except for a black

light inside that made the whole day-glo interior catch on fire, ah, what a

sight that was. My daughter kissed the bus on the hood before a guard chased us

away.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:04:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg's archive

.... You might want to be careful about saying that Columbia didn't have

>a chance to buy the collection....

>As far as selling to the Japanese, I'm wondering if you thought that

>statement over before you said it? Why would it be wrong for a Japanese

>University to buy the Ginsberg or Kerouac collection? It would be more

>inconvenient for you or me to use the materials, but easier for Japanese

>scholars. Isn't this pretty close to being a racist comment?.....

....Your earlier mention that Allen

>"refused" to help Jan puzzled me a little. Did he really "refuse" or was he

>just too busy to respond to your request at that time. Doesn't really sound

>like Allen to refuse to help anyone, does it?....

>

>Yours,

>Bill Morgan

>

Dear Bill, May 11, 1997

I didn't say Ginsberg shouldn't have sold his archive to Stanford.

I just said the fact that Columbia was going to be upset by the fact that

they "lost" it was reason enough for Allen to keep his negotiations secret.

I'm still waiting for Mr. Sampas or his supporters to explain WHY--if he is

indeed engaged in secret negotiations with the NY Public Library--HE TOO

NEEDS TO KEEP HIS NEGOTIATIONS SECRET?

As for the Japanese, Allen and I were talking about PRIVATE JAPANESE

COLLECTORS, not Japanese universities. With a Chinese daughter, I'd be the

last person to make racist remarks against the Asians! But I do think that

the Beats are AMERICAN cultural treasures, and I think their archives ought

to remain here, if possible, just as I deplore the continual smuggling of

Italian Renaissance masterpieces out of Italy by some of the big auction

houses--because the paintings bring more money outside of Italy.

I wrote Allen well in advance of the Jan Kerouac benefits. He

didn't answer. So I called him, and he started screaming at me that he "had

no money to give." I told him we didn't want money; we just wanted him to

donate something, even a book. He then fell back on the argument that he

couldn't "get involved, couldn't take sides," even though I explained the

money would also help Jan with medical expenses.

Not only did Allen never send anything for the auction, he told

several people not to help Jan. He told Herb Gold to stay away from the

benefits (I have this direct from Herb Gold), and he told Gary Snyder not to

perform after I'd sought Gary's assistance. (I don't have that direct from

Gary, but have it from folksinger Utah Phillips, who's Gary's neighbor and

friend. Utah did come down to SF and perform for Jan.)

Allen was a great man and a great writer, but I will resist the

attempts to deify him (just as I've never deified Kerouac, who had a huge

dark side, was enormously self-destructive, and hurt a lot of the people in

his life, including his daughter Jan). Allen had lots of blind sides (women

represented a big one), and at times he had amazing gaps of compassion (he

was not a saint, sorry). Ask some of Corso's friends, like George Scrivani,

how they feel Ginsberg let Gregory down over and over again.

Allen's rejection of his goddaughter Jan remains one of the cruelest

things he ever did--especially when he waved police on to take her out of

NYU, where she had asked to speak for only 5 minutes.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:13:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Robert Peters brilliant piece

Comments: To: stand666@bitstream.net

Richard:

When the arts are determined by parks departments and we honor our poets

through ticketmasters and Moloch, the CIA, and the academe are one, Robert

Peters becomes a big bad wolf.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:48:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg's archive

Comments: To: gnicosia@earthlink.net

In a message dated 97-05-11 20:30:50 EDT, you write:

<< Allen had lots of blind sides (women

represented a big one), and at times he had amazing gaps of compassion (he

was not a saint, sorry). Ask some of Corso's friends, like George Scrivani,

how they feel Ginsberg let Gregory down over and over again.

Allen's rejection of his goddaughter Jan remains one of the cruelest

things he ever did--especially when he waved police on to take her out of

NYU, where she had asked to speak for only 5 minutes.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. >>

Gerry:

Those amazing gaps of compassion made our relationships with Allen eventually

cordial. Maybe that was the best way. He sat at Burroughs' dinner table and

edited a poem of James and one of mine. Someone mentioned that that wasn't

necessary and he joked and said that's what I do for a living. It seemed then

that I was talking to his father, Louis. It appeared then that he was trying

to "put many things in order", he even mentioned an old quarrel about Peter

inspecting the beams in my house and said it was Ed the Hermit's idea which

was surprising to me because it had nothing to do with much of anything

except his interpertation. There was a time I could scream at him for what I

perceived as hiprocrisy, but maybe it all just comes to an end with just

correcting the manuscripts. To think just how far his gaps of compassion

could reach would, in Pound's words, "trouble my sleep".

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:02:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

.....

1)Why wouldn't you think John Sampas would

>want the archive preserved forever....

> ....2) He is doing all he can to destroy

>L.C.K....3) He wants John Sampas to give Paul Blake Jr. money when

>Jan Kerouac herself didn't leave him anything at all. She disinherited him....

4) Yes I am

>in a position to help but Gerry's position is that Stella is a criminal and

>that she forged the will....That is his main argument....

>5) I have in front of me eight pages of items that

>the Sampas family has placed in the Berg collection of NYPL. Why does he

>distort the truth and 6) act like the Sampas family has never done anything

>good. 7) He also knows that John didn't shut down the archive at U-Lowell. But

>he continues to lie about the issues to make himself look like a big hero....

>

>8) I say start by telling Gerry to stop bashing people like L.C.K....9)

Gerry's agenda of promoting a lawsuit would not be

>appropriate for a Kerouac celebration .... Phil Chaput-Lowell Mass.

Dear Phil, May 11, 1997

In the heat of the night here a few nights ago, exhausted and

punchy, I called you a liar. Next morning I immediately apologized. I

realized that a word like "lie" or "liar" is inflammatory, and this debate

needs to be cooled down. But you turn right around and call me a "liar" and

add insult to injury, claiming once again that I'm just a glory-seeker. My

record of Beat scholarship, writings, and lectures represents years and

years of hard, hard work. I hardly need to defend myself on that score.

But you continually put false words in my mouth; make false

assertions; and make me waste hours and hours of my time refuting things I

never even said in the first place. Whether or not John Sampas has put you

up to this, it certainly works to his advantage, when right now I need to be

doing a lot of other things besides unsaying things I never said.

It's like I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and find that you

have claimed:

"Gerry Nicosia wants to see John Sampas shot by a firing squad.

"Gerry Nicosia has advocated the city of Lowell be burned to the ground.

"Gerry Nicosia has earned ten million dollars by working for Jan

Kerouac."

So then I have to patiently explain how I never said or did any of

those things.

Come on! You can't expect me to play this game forever. And I'm

not going to. I will proceed to demolish your credibility right here, and I

ask Beat-List readers to realize that, if I don't answer Mr. Chaput's next

25 charges, it is because they have as little to do with reality as the

above ones:

(Please note: I have added numbers to Mr. Chaput's arguments to make

my refutation clearer.)

1) John Sampas refused to cooperate with Weinberg's attempt to sell

Kerouac's archive to the Bancroft. Sampas stood up Tom Staley, from the U.

of Texas, who had come to Mass. to discuss acquiring Kerouac's archive for

the Humanities Research Center. Mr. Sampas still claims he wishes the

material to go into the New York Public Library, but after 6 years he still

hasn't signed even a "statement of intention." In the meantime, he has sold

off hundreds of pieces of the Kerouac archive to private dealers and

collectors. That's why.

2) Let's get this STRAIGHT, Phil. YOU brought Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac! into this argument, not me. As one of your personal attacks on me,

you grouched that I had never donated money to LCK! So I proceeded to tell

you why I had never donated to them, which is principally because they have

been a one-sided, partisan affair (a mouthpiece for the Sampas family) from

the very beginning. And the National Park Service has been sent numerous

complaints to this effect.

3) Jan did not disinherit Paul Blake. She did not put him in her

will because SHE FULLY EXPECTED TO SEE HER CASE AGAINST THE SAMPSES GO TO

TRIAL in a few months, to win in Florida, and to share the winnings with

Paul Blake, Jr. She knew that if Stella's will was disqualified, Paul would

get a full third of the multi-million dollar estate. It was more important

at the time for her to provide for her exhusband, who is a struggling

writer, and her half-brother, who is quite poor and raising a young son.

Like Jack, Jan did not expect to die as quickly as she did. Had she lost in

Florida, I'm sure she would have put Paul into her will.

Besides, she gave the Blake family considerable financial assistance

while she was alive. She bought hundreds of dollars of clothing for Paul

Jr's homeless son, Paul III, in Nevada, and she gave Paul a couple of

thousand dollars to buy tools for his trade and to get his teeth fixed. She

would have done more had she been able to afford it--and had Mr. Sampas not

been chipping away at her income.

4) I never said anywhere that STELLA SAMPAS FORGED GABRIELLE'S

WILL. My position is that until further handwriting analysis is done, WE

DON'T KNOW WHO FORGED THE WILL. This is PURE PHIL CHAPUT invention, and I'm

growing damned tired of it.

5) Rodney Phillips showed me that list, and almost everything on it

was XEROXES of letters, etc., not original manuscript. See my earlier post

to Attila about why xeroxes are much less useful for textual scholarship.

6) I never said "the Sampas family never did anything good." AGAIN,

THIS IS YOU PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AGAIN. I just finished a post a few

nights ago saying how much help Tony Sampas had given me on my biography,

and how much I appreciated Tony's nonpartisan spirit.

7) Martha Mayo, librarian at U Mass, Lowell, Special Collections,

has thus far GIVEN ME THE NAME OF ONLY ONE PERSON WHO OBJECTED TO PUBLIC

ACCESS TO THE MEMORY BABE COLLECTION: JOHN SAMPAS. If there are others,

let's have her finally reveal them!

8) Again, guy, you, not me, dragged LCK! into this.

9) Now we have the "MR. CHAPUT CONVENIENTLY IGNORES EVERYTHING I'VE

SAID IN PAST POSTS" trick. I have repeatedly reminded Mr. Chaput that the

Lowell Kerouac Committee practiced A POLICY OF EXCLUSION TOWARDS ME AND JAN

FROM ITS INCEPTION IN 1988. Jan's lawsuit was not filed until mid-1994.

For the tired Beat-List readers, I'll try to conclude all these

exchanges soon with a big over-view, and get us out of this smoke and mire

of nonsense charges that Mr. Chaput is promoting.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:57:05 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Real name <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: ESTATE DETAILS You guys are so

> In the heat of the night here a few nights ago, exhausted and

>punchy, I called you a

<respectful snip>

> But you turn right around and call me a

<respectful snip>

Deep, linear, alone

can't break free of plodding over the deep muddy landcape.

by all means keep calling...deep minds, soaring souls, nutty genius

I am too direct..."U now know all, see all, ...28 deep breaths 4 U"

...the pain & fear, we all go through.

Self-control is too good a censor for me but I hustle

to make her stay...lest I be trouble. Interior design the

pulsing mental room.

What INPUTS-- a moderated mind is everyone's right

.

My 1/20th of a cent worth....do please keep calling

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

right focus on them."

-- Mark Twain, 1906

quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:00:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: correction

To all followers of the Great Debate:

I made an inadvertent slip in my last post, "Re: Estate Details."

On point 3) I wrote that "Jan knew that if Stella's will was

disqualified, Paul would get a full third of the multi-million dollar estate."

Of course what I meant to write was "if Gabrielle's will was

disqualified." Stella's will has never been an issue.

Just tired.

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:57:31 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "Pranksters hit Cleveland"@cruzio.com

Thank you Dave. This is some lame description. I am still a bit

disoriented. I feel like I am witnessing/participaing in a privileged

historic moment all over again. It too will grow as life goes on. I sure

am glad of the reality of our list, the depth of feeling and, etc. Thank

you Bill Gargan for your wision and energy to start all this. We will

come out of the morass yet, including fogged dreams that shadow us.

leon

>MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

>

> Kesey and the Pranksters hit Cleveland about 2:30 in the afternoon,

> just after Donavan finished a set (which I missed). A good size crowd cheered

( I am > > no good at guessing numbers) as they pulled up with about five

people on the roof,

> one waving a large American flag. Ken Babbs took to the microphone for a bit

> while they de-bussed and answered some questions. Country Joe came on and did

a

> great set including the Woodstock version of the FISH CHEER. After Joe the

> Pranksters came on and Ken led then in a version of G-L-O-R-I-A.

>

> Big Brother and the Holding Company finished up with a Janis clone who was

> actually pretty good. I thought it was a bit depressing though, to go and make

> a living this way with the Janis clone but hopefully, they do it only on

> special occaisions.

>

> The reception was from 7-9 and was fun because you got to see the musuem

> menbers in their glitzy wear contrasted with the Pranksters, still in

> Prankster-wear. I asked Ken Babbs about joining BEAT-L and he said

> "Yeah...someday maybe..." he was pretty tired and had had a few drinks so who

> knows. Kesey was asleep and showewd up later on and by that time, I forgot to

> ask him about joining BEAT-L. They fired up the "Thunder Machine" which is a

> combination go-cart and one-man-band. Ken was inside speaking through a

> microphone which boomed through the whole musuem. Babbs was another microphone

> while someone plucked on some stings on the side while another beat on the

> built-in drum. The few leftover Pranksters took some of Ken's weed and fired

up

> a big bowl, damn, it was a pretty fine time, the food was good and the booze

> was un-limited.

>

> AS for the exhibit, I WANT TO TAKE YOU HIGHER, is well worth a look if you are

> in the Cleveland area. It was not as extensive as I thought but what they had

> was great....Some Hunter Thompson letters, the guitar Lennon used during his

> and Yoko's 8 day bed-in, a lot of Bill Graham's stuff, Mouse Studio posters,

> you get the picture...

>

> Finally, Kesey's play TWISTER will open in NYC in about a month. Viking will

> release the combo book and video at about the same time. Excuse the lame

> description of the events but I am still a bit tired. When I finally left the

> reception, the bus was still parked out front in the dark, except for a black

> light inside that made the whole day-glo interior catch on fire, ah, what a

> sight that was. My daughter kissed the bus on the hood before a guard chased

us

> away.

>

> Dave B.

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:39:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: name game <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS I immediatley cooled down

.....

1)Why wouldn't you think

He is doing

money when

I am

>in a position that is forged

argument....

>distort the truth

has never done anything

>good.

shut down the

the issues

like big hero....

>

start by

bashing people

promoting

>appropriate

celebration

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:56:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS You guys are so

>My 1/20th of a cent worth....do please keep calling

>www.ellensburg.com/~digress

>

>"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

>right focus on them."

>

> -- Mark Twain, 1906

> quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

> arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

>

Dear Ellensburg caller: May 11, 1997

Jan Kerouac dwelt in Ellensburg, Washington, for many years. Did

you know her?

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:26:24 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS You guys are so

At 09:56 PM 5/11/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>My 1/20th of a cent worth....do please keep calling

>>www.ellensburg.com/~digress

>>

>>"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

>>right focus on them."

>>

>> -- Mark Twain, 1906

>> quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

>> arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

>>

>Dear Ellensburg caller: May 11, 1997

> Jan Kerouac dwelt in Ellensburg, Washington, for many years. Did

>you know her?

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

>

Dear Gerry,

Wow! Far as I know have not become acquainted. Silly me. Cool!

Someone here will know her, I guess.

Wishes,

Mike

http://www.ellensburg.com/~digress/gowhence.htm

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

right focus on them."

-- Mark Twain, 1906

quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:33:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Rolling Stone's tribute to Allen Ginsberg

Well, Rolling Stone finally pulled through with quite a nice spread as a

tribute to Allen Ginsberg in their new issue which subscribers got

yesterday. They talked to everybody. EVERYbody. (Except for Dylan for some

strange reason.) I don't even want to spoil the surprises, so just look

for the new issue.

Cheers,

Malcs

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:24:15 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: to make me a fool is too easy

Wink?

Not start bashing people...no..no

At 09:39 PM 5/11/97 -0700, you wrote:

>.....

>1)Why wouldn't you think

>

>He is doing

>money when

>I am

>>in a position that is forged

>argument....

>

>

>>distort the truth

>has never done anything

>>good.

>shut down the

>the issues

>like big hero....

>>

>start by

>bashing people

>

>

>promoting

>

>>appropriate

>celebration

>

>

>

>>

>

>

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the

right focus on them."

-- Mark Twain, 1906

quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_

arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:51:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg's archive

Dear Gerry:

Thanks for filling in the picture about Allen's refusal to send something for

your Jan K. benefit. You certainly seem entitled to use the word "refused",

so sorry to have mentioned it. I do think that Allen, although far from

being a saint, was generous almost to a fault, and regardless of what you

might have heard was the greatest supporter of Gregory Corso for over 40

years. Your other points are well taken but again there is a big difference

between art works smuggled out of other countries for sale in auction houses

and the sale of a Beat item to someone in another country. I disagree with

you that the Beats are an American treasure, still think that international

influences and associations makes them world treasures. Good luck in your

projects.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:21:45 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

I just picked this CD up the other day ("Kicks, Joy, Darkness", released by

Ryko), have mixed responses to it, and am wondering how others feel. It's a

collection of folks like AG, WSB, Hunter S. Thompson, Lee Ranaldo, Johnny Depp,

Matt Dillion, and others all reading Jack's work. Some is set to some

(interesting, but) good music . . . but I think some of the reading stinks. AG,

of course, does a great job, as does WSB and some others (I like Ranaldo's

work), but Michael Stipe (REM lead singer) does a really poor job . . . should

stick to the music he writes/sings. His reading seemed so lifeless. Usually

collections like this are mostly good with a few bad cuts, or the other way

around. In Kicks, Joy, Darkness, though, some are very good, and others are

very (VERY) bad.

What do others think?

Regards,

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:26:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone's tribute to Allen Ginsberg

Dylan seems to really be private when it comes to his friends dying. I don't

remember if he released a public statement when Jerry Garcia died, but a

friend of mine was at the private ceremony for JG and said that Dylan was very

upset at the death of his friend. I only remember him making one statement

when someone died and that was at the death of Roy Orbison and all he said

was that Roy was an opera singer and had the greatest voice.

I think Dylan's silence is not indicative of anything except a painful sense

of loss.

Paul McDonald

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:43:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Driving Through Mythical America

Hey Antoine, yeh you got it... I nearly attributed it then I thought who the

hell even on this wonderful list would ever have heard of Pete Atkin. He

made four or five albums, all with similar weird (and sometimes very

pretentious, but hey I was only 14) lyrics. There was a wonderful track

called "Wristwatch For A Drummer" about Max Roach and jazz drummers.. Pete

Atkin is now a senior producer at the BBC, Clive James of course went on to

megastardom on TV. Saw them perform both together live in Cambridge too, an

album of parodies of songsters of the time with especially a brilliant James

Taylor impersonation (remember him). Ah, nostalgia. Sorry for no Beat

content everyone else.

Nick

>Nick,

>

> I jumped when I saw "On The Road with Jack and Neal and a

>couple of cute furry friends Driving Through Mythical America!" You grew up

>in England, right? I was jerked back to 1971 and a great weird recording

>called "Driving Through Mythical America" - lyrics by Clive James, singing

>by Pete Atkin. The title song was a road song dealing partly with Kent

>State.... nothin' Beat about it htough although a cool song.

>

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:33:35 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863453001@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

wes & co.

sure i agree some of the tracks are gonna be played infrequently around

here too esp. the julianna hatfield "silly goofball poems" (a little too

"cute" for me, but...) and personally i think that the HSThompson piece is

quite fantastic esp when thot of at %:00am w/ his lawyer , etc. genius.

the stipe track is a little flat but i think that it some how fits with

stipes singing - usually quite like the vocals on "my gang" no? and y'know

also the eddie vedder track is a little lame, but... on the whole quite an

accomplishment - and that visions of cody track by robert hunter - what

inspiration, wow!

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:11:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970512083023.32228A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> sure i agree some of the tracks are gonna be played infrequently around

> here too esp. the julianna hatfield "silly goofball poems" (a little too

> "cute" for me, but...)

yeah i thought this and the vedder track were the worst... also, the maggie

estep reading was absolutely totally amazing, blew me away.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:17:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Rolling Stone's tribute to A.G./Dylan-Garcia

At 10:26 AM 5/12/97 -0400, Paul McDonald wrote:

>Dylan seems to really be private when it comes to

>his friends dying. I don'tremember if he released

>a public statement when Jerry Garcia died, but a

>friend of mine was at the private ceremony for JG

>and said that Dylan was very upset at the death of his

>friend.

Here uze go:

>We discovered that Bob Dylan had more to say about

>Jerry Garcia than what we printed the other day. So here

>is the full text of Dylan's comments: "There's no way to

>measure his greatness or magnitude as a person or as

>a player. I don't think any eulogizing will do him

>justice. He was that great, much more than a superb

>musician with an uncanny ear and dexterity.

>He is the very spirit personified of whatever is muddy

>river country at its core and screams up

>into the spheres. He really had no equal. To me he

>wasn't only a musician and a friend, he was

>more like a big brother who taught and showed me

>more than he'll ever know. There's a lot of spaces and

>advances between the Carter family, Buddy Holly and

>say, Ornette Coleman, a lot of universes, but he filled

>them all without being a member of any school. His

>playing was moody, awesome, sophisticated, hypnotic

>and subtle. There's no way to convey the loss. It just

>digs down real deep."

This is from, "Music News of the World - August 15,

1995"

http://www.addict.com/MNOTW/95-08-15.html

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:49:53 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

I agree there are going to be the rarely played cuts, but I'd have to

say among the highs for me were the Strummer/Kerouac "collaboration"

(a great bit of editing work there), Burroughs' Western piece, and I

was surprised to like both the Warren Zevon reading as well as

Depp's, though it was probably the work itself as much as the

reading; it's just plain hard to fail with works such as they

read. And as far as music aside from the jazz-based accompaniments,

John Cale's translation of "The Moon" is incredible in its sense of

isolation. Lydia Lunch, too, added quite an edge to the piece she

did.

And weirdly, I didn't mind the Hatfield number so much. And it IS a

little cutesy, but in relation to so many dark performances on the CD,

it's a welcome contrast. It shows off Kerouac's considerable sense of

humor and zen lunacy.

Clay Vaughan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:32:05 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

derek, clay, and anybody else interested in this thread...

I agree that the Juliana (forgot last name) reading is far too cutesy, but see

Clay's point that it might be refreshing (but, sorry Clay, I agree with derek on

that one). I especially like WSB's reading, and Allen Ginsberg's, but now I'm

wondering if that's because I like to listen to both of them read...??? Hmmm.

That brings me to another question: do I not like some of the readings because

they deviate too much from the sound of Jack's voice in my inner ear. I've

listened to him read quite a bit, and now read with his work with his pattern.

derek: Not being very familiar with Hunter Thompson (with him, yes, but not his

work), is that typical of his readings? You praise it. I can't. Is it a case

of "if you like him, you'll like anything he does"? It just seemed so . . .

unorganized, unplanned, ungood. I didn't feel like it did the work justice...

seemed so, oh, unholy! I got a feeling in HST of "okay, fuck, if I have to read

this, let me get it over with." Some of that comes from his under-the-breath

comments.

On Stipe's reading: yes, it IS like his singing. But that's the problem I have

with it. It works in his songs, with REM's music, but it didn't work here. It

just rang hollow . . . not depressing, not artistically reflective of the work--

just hollow.

I do like the Johhny Depp reading, although I hate to admit it (don't ask me

why, I just don't like him).

Still, I would recommend this CD to at least listen to, if not buy. If you're a

fan of Sonic Youth, this is a must buy as most of the music is similar (of

course, there's Lee Ranaldo to help with that).

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:43:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863460932@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

A thread I can get into.

Let me say this re: kicks, joy....

The jim caroll/Mr. Morphine guy WOMAN bit is fantastic.

I want to put it on my answering machine.

I wish to have it read at my funeral.

Like a hankerchief in the wind-

Shan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:56:00 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863460932@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Wes Lundburg wrote:

> derek: Not being very familiar with Hunter Thompson (with him, yes, but not

his

> work), is that typical of his readings? You praise it. I can't. Is it a

case

> of "if you like him, you'll like anything he does"? It just seemed so . . .

> unorganized, unplanned, ungood. I didn't feel like it did the work justice...

> seemed so, oh, unholy! I got a feeling in HST of "okay, fuck, if I have to

read

> this, let me get it over with." Some of that comes from his under-the-breath

> comments.

wes,

uh well yr right about the wsb reading - its just incredible (more & more

tracks now rushing to my head about this cd, wit it not in front of me, me

trapped at work, egad!) anyway - contrasting the wsb "western" reading of

"old western movies" with kerouac's singing, floating version as on the

kerouac box set.

as for hst - how could you be familiar with him but not his work? and well

his voice ive never heard his voice before this cd, and its exactly what i

thot it would sound like. the 5:00am rush somehow fits with his books, etc

and i think that i would have been disappointed with something done sober

in the daylight, no?

and yr right about the unorganized thing im sure that he just realized

that oh shit gotta do this and so lets just do it, now, in the moment (a

la jack no?) and the style i think was perfect thompson especially the

feedback crash at the end of his little reading, y'know? ( i wonder if his

poem was improv - "4 dogs went into the widerness, only 3 came back. 3

dogs died of guiny worm, the other dies of you - jack kerouac" etc etc.

yrs

derek

ps: does any one have other recordings of hunter reading, etc? and any

comments on the newly released book of hst letters _proud highway_ (which

seems to be vol.1 of 3!!)

d

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:09:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: linux

In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.970511111334.19032B-100000@sky.net>

J--

> Just curious. How many Linux users are there on Beat-L?

I doubt very many (yet), but it's cool to see that at least someone else on

the list is.

When I went to Naropa a few summers ago I checked out the Beat Book Store in

Boulder. Pretty cool place -- I got lost browsing through lots and lots of

Beat and otherwise countercultural books, but some of the top books on my

wantlist that summer weren't Beat at all -- namely, Terence McKenna's 2013

mushroom treatise and Ted Nelson's _Literary Machines_ and _Computer Lib_.

The latter is the first countercultural computer book (ca. '74) and the

former is a good outline of the hypertext systems of the future. Since the

one book was at least in the Whole Earth Review sphere of things and the

other was about future electronic writing systems I figured there was at

least a chance they'd have them at the BBS (couldn't find them in any

mainstream outlets, that's for sure). But when I asked the proprietor

(sitting on a chair wearing a Kerouac shirt) he looked at me like I was

rambling incoherently during the final stages of a shroom comedown, barely

letting out a "No, we ain't got no _computer_ books here," before

quietly laughing to himself.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:15:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863460932@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Wes Lundburg wrote:

> derek: Not being very familiar with Hunter Thompson (with him, yes, but not

his

> work), is that typical of his readings? You praise it. I can't. Is it a

case

> of "if you like him, you'll like anything he does"? It just seemed so . . .

> unorganized, unplanned, ungood.

I thought it pretty typical HST. In readings etc. he comes off as a drunken,

doped-up slob (which he probably is), but his writing is very fine. Even

through all his shenanigans there's a certain precision which comes through

in all his writings, and I'm not sure you get it during his spoken word,

where the drunken craziness is more in the forefront.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:40:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: British Beats

No-one came up with much in the quest for British Beats. But I just read

that the novelist Will Self was hired to cover the recebt election for a

newspaper to give an unorthodox viewpoint, and was fired after one article

after admitting taking heroin in the toilet of the Prime Minister's campaign

jet. Dunno about his writing, but that seemed an indisputably Beat act.

Nick

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:56:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

Wes, I've been having those same thoughts, questioning my reasons for

liking some pieces and not others... I mean, I feel fairly secure

that the work is driven ultimately by the words, and then by the

speaker, although it's true that Kerouac's delivery of his own work

is unsurpassed and probably the primary reason why the Strummer piece

is so good in my mind.

And too, you're right; I basically LIKE hearing Ginsberg and

Burroughs read, whatever it is, though lately, hearing Ginsberg read

Mexico City Blues, I found myself tiring of him probably for the

first time. No dislike there, but it was a case of hearing Kerouac

read some of those same poems and KNOWING how they sound coming out

of Kerouac's mind.... and then this happened again on Brooklyn Bridge

Blues, and in my mind I was hearing Kerouac and his mind and humor,

though in the words some of this was a little lacking in Ginsberg's

recitation. No dire comment, this, just an observation.

Clay

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:07:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Overview, Part One

Dear Beat-List folks: May 12, 1997

A few days ago there was a post from Leon Tabory, deporing the "very

tasteless, rude" interruption that I had caused in his daily reading of

Beat-List postings, by precipitating a flood of Estate Fight messages.

Let me assure Mr. Tabory that this will not go on forever. In fact,

I am on the verge of calling a halt to it right now. I do believe that,

after six years' work on a major biography, the only critical biography, of

Kerouac, and many more years writing articles and lecturing about the Beats

at libraries, bookstores, and not a few universities, I earned a right to

speak out here for a couple of weeks.

Mr. Rod Anstee, who seems to have disappeared from the list, was

actually one of the prime causes of my appearance here. Since 1983 (if

memory serves right) Mr. Anstee has been contacting me for help with his

writing projects. I have supplied him with countless documents, names,

addresses, phone numbers, etc., to help him along. I have also praised his

textual scholarship on some of Kerouac's works, such as MEXICO CITY BLUES.

A few years ago Mr. Anstee let me know that he was archiving all my letters

and papers, and so I told him he could become a repository for all the

documents I had regarding the Kerouac Estate Fight. To all intents and

appearances, Mr. Anstee spoke and acted as if he were my friend.

Then Mr. Joe Grant informed me that Mr. Anstee was saying some very

nasty things about me on the Beat-List. Mr. Grant is a writer and publisher

of the highest integrity, who fought the prison system at Fort Leavenworth

and a great many other very tough causes throughout his life; he is hardly a

patsy whom I have brainwashed, as Mr. Anstee would have you believe. The

things Rod was saying were not only "nasty"--which Rod has chosen as his

email name--but dangerously misleading and, at times, out-and-out wrong.

There are names for a person who says they are your friend, and then

attacks you behind your back. None of those names are pretty, and I won't

repeat them here.

It occurred to me immediately that Mr. Anstee had probably sent my

whole file of documents down to Mr. Sampas. While that will certainly make

Sampas's legal maneuvering easier, I have nothing to hide, and they can

spend the next 1000 hours burrowing through all my papers, if they wish,

seeking something scurrilous I have said about the Sampases, or something

self-incriminating. They won't find it.

I have never sought to hurt Mr. Sampas. I have even had people tell

me, "Won't it be great?! If you win in Florida, you'll get to watch Sampas

squirm!" My reply is always: "I'll be happy to see Jack Kerouac's papers

preserved, and I'll be happy to see actual Kerouac's (like Paul Blake) get

some benefit from the great writer's estate." That will be the sum total of

my reaction. If Mr. Sampas is unhappy over losing some money (which is all

he stands to lose), I will not crow about it, nor rejoice at his misery. I

have spent too many years learning to practice Christian teachings to allow

myself to hate another human being, or to gloat over someone else's

suffering--both of which only hurt the person who bears the grudge.

As for Mr. Anstee, he has repeatedly pointed out my supposed selfish

motives in all this. But I felt it was duplicitous for him to question my

motives while failing to tell the Beat-List readers that he had met

privately with John Sampas and purchased several items from Jack Kerouac's

archive for his (Anstee's) personal collection. There is no doubt that he

would love to purchase some more, but he must first win his way back into

Mr. Sampas's favor. And there is, apparently, no better way to ingratiate

oneself with John Sampas than to attack Gerald Nicosia.

By the way, Mr. Anstee has not resold HIS KEROUAC PURCHASES to the

New York Public Library. In fact, most of the people who purchased Kerouac

items from Sampas have not resold them to any library. I have followed the

history of several of these items out here in California, and they have

gotten divvied up and resold from collector to collector, often at the big

antiquarian bookseller shows.

This brings me round to the BIG ISSUE, which all the smoke and

mirrors from amateur (but persistent) magician Phil Chaput have sought to

obscure. I refer to Phil as an amateur not to put him down, but to clearly

reveal his credentials, just as I have now revealed Anstee's.

Phil Chaput is not recognized as a scholar anywhere, to the best of

my knowledge. I am recognized as a preeminent literary and Kerouac scholar

around the world. My point is not to boast; my point is only this: that I

certainly know a lot more about the requirements of literary scholarship

than Mr. Chaput.

A literary scholar needs access to every note, every notebook, and

every draft of a manuscript before he can write sound, in-depth analysis of

a work. When I was at the New York Public Library with Jan, for example, we

saw a few of Kerouac's hand-printed notebooks for a small section of

DESOLATION ANGELS. Mr. Phillips could not say whether they had come

directly from John Sampas. But if I were a scholar working on a textual

study of DESOLATION ANGELS, I would need the entire first draft of that

novel, plus all the RETYPED DRAFTS (and I know by Jack's letters that there

were several). Moreover, I would like access to all the little

breast-pocket notebooks and all the correspondence he wrote (carbon copies)

and all the letters he received that dealt with it. I'd also like to look

at what books Kerouac was reading while he was writing DESOLATION ANGELS,

and I'd check out every marginal note Kerouac made in other people's books

during that period.

Again, the New York Public Library now has the notebooks that MEXICO

CITY BLUES were hand-printed in. Mr. Anstee got to see these notebooks, and

they enabled him to do some marvelous literary criticism, because they

showed that Kerouac often wrote the choruses out of sequence and wrote

letters and other sketches in between them. But to do an even better

analysis, we would need to see the various RETYPED DRAFTS of the book, and

to the best of my knowledge, THOSE ARE NOT IN THE LIBRARY. Nor are all the

other types of material that I mentioned in the paragraph above.

Much of this ancillary material has already been sold off, and can

never be recaptured in one place. If John Sampas is sincere about his desire

to help Kerouac scholarship, then he will immediately put EVERYTHING HE HAS

LEFT, EVERYTHING HE HAS NOT YET SOLD OFF, ON DEPOSIT IN ONE PLACE. For all

Mr. Chaput's ballyhoo, I can point out more than a dozen important

manuscripts (both first drafts and subsequent drafts) that ARE NOT ON

PERMANENT DEPOSIT (AND NOT ACCESSIBLE) IN THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY (or

any other library):

ON THE ROAD

THE DHARMA BUMS

DR. SAX

THE SUBTERRANEANS

VISIONS OF GERARD

VISIONS OF CODY

BIG SUR

LONESOME TRAVELLER

VANITY OF DULUOZ

most of DESOLATION ANGELS

THE SCRIPTURE OF THE GOLDEN ETERNITY

PIC

(not to mention half a dozen more unpublished books, such as BOOK OF

SKETCHES and the unfinished novel about Lowell that Kerouac called MEMORY BABE*)

Can you imagine trying to doing meaningful textual analysis of

Kerouac--or a study of the development of his composition process--without

access to ANY of those books in their original form(s)? IMPOSSIBLE!!! Yet

that is the situation Kerouac scholars find themselves in today.

That is the situation I would like to see rectified.

More later -- Gerry Nicosia

(*By the way, Mr. Sampas claims as one of his gripes that I "stole"

this title. I actually got "Memory Babe" from a clammer in Northport, Long

Island, Adolph Rothman, who told me at the beginning of my journey: "You've

got to call your book 'Memory Babe' because that's what Jack always called

himself around here--he was really proud of that nickname.")

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:17:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Ginsberg Question: AH

When Ginsberg autographed books after readings, he usually wrote AH! What

does this sigature expression mean, refer to, express--just another form of

OM! or something else? //John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:49:59 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863453001@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Wes Lundburg wrote:

> I just picked this CD up the other day ("Kicks, Joy, Darkness", released by

> Ryko), have mixed responses to it, and am wondering how others feel. It's a

After listening to it a lot recently, I'm starting to get a little more of

a grip... the HST is endearing but lightweight... Johnny Depp acquits

himself pretty well, & the Anna Domino (? I think...) is really good

reading ; lots of the tracks are actually enlivened by the accompaniment

rather than, as I was afraid, trivialised or otherwise defocussed. The WSB

track is perfectly filmmusic complemented... & my current favourite is the

Ferlinghetti one, not because the reading is outstanding, but that when

combined with that unsettling line of chimes it becomes downright

insidious, friends. Ginsberg rules. As does Ranaldo & whoever did "have

you ever seen a face like Cody Pomeray...?"

> work), but Michael Stipe (REM lead singer) does a really poor job . . . should

> stick to the music he writes/sings. His reading seemed so lifeless.

Now this is weird, because that one I love... to me another case of voice

& backing in synch. It didn't strike me as lifeless, more *toneless*... &

by about halfway thru when the random keyboard prods pick up speed it

seemed that the whole thing had become a rhythmic exercise... more than

anyone I thought his approach turned the work into something else... it

picks up momentum as it goes and sometimes, in a contradictory kind of

way, the emotion comes through all the more powerful for being understated

; meaning that if it's implicit in the words and then absent from the

voice... the overall effect is disorienting & nice. I suppose it's a

matter of taste.

Olly R.

p.s> a (shamefully offtopic) line from the new Mark Eitzel lp :

"...the rain has passed over & the sky is clear with wind, & I'm a

pearl diver... so you can tell the cops I was looking for pearls in the

frozen water, saying goodbye with nothing left to discover..."

I just felt I had to share that with everyone.

____________________________________________________________________

"If I had a gun... I would give you your freedom."

____________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

____________________________________________________________________

>

> What do others think?

>

> Regards,

> ---Wes

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:07:08 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: rbt hunter & cody pomeray...

Comments: To: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.970512171104.16944A-100000@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk>

olly and co.

whoever did "did you ever see aface like cody pomeray's?" alas olly - that

would be the illustrious Mr.Rbt Hunter - known in certain circles as the

genius (along with john perry barlow who has gone on to great fame &

little fortune as net guru & visionary...) behind the lyrics of the

grateful dead(as well as dylan in a few

cases). and currently touring on his own thru-out usa all alone with his

guitar & pedals. if you get a chance go and recapture the slightest of

glimpses of what the dead were and could have been, alas poor yorick i

knew him well, he was a man of infinite jest...

ah

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:32:16 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

a long-overdue return from the depths of lurkdom...

I think Kicks Joy Darkness is a wonderful tribute to Jack...even though

some readings are better than others it's obvious every artist on the

disc has a deep love for Kerouac's poetry.

Thoughts on the standout tracks (in my opinion at least):

Hunter S Thompson's ode to Jack: at first I thought 'what the hell was

that?' but it gets funnier every time I hear it!

Richard Lewis' American Trinity of Love: This was the biggest

surprise...Lewis abandons his neurotic Jewish comedian shtick and shows

actual talent impersonating Kerouac.

Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Burroughs: Kerouac heard through three of his

peers, three different voices, and they all work (especially

Ginsberg's...I think he's one of the best at reading Jack's material, no

one was closer to Jack and his writing).

Juliana Hatfield's Silly Goofball Pomes: I can't believe some people are

down on this one...she gives a fresh, whimsical reading, which is what

Jack probably intended. It's a refreshing departure from the usual

morose feel of some of Jack's other pomes.

John Cale's The Moon: One of the very best, perfectly interpreted.

Prose readings by Johnny Depp, Robert Hunter, and Lee Ranaldo: all three

have a good feel for how Jack's prose should be read...they all reflect

the energy that's in Jack's work.

Waren Zevon's 'Wiiiinnnne' pome: Hilarious, slightly cynical little

tribute to one of Jack's favorite pastimes. Zevon really has a great

voice, he should read Kerouac on record more often.

Among the less-than-great tracks...Maggie Estep (more shtick, this time

the angry loud New Yawk bitchy poet hipster lady...can she actually read

something without coming off as totally obnoxious? Quiet down for a

change!), Eddie Vedder (genx's emerging version of Wacko Jacko, the guy

seems to have lost touch with humanity), Rob Buck and Danny Chauvin (the

only true screwup on the cd, flubbed lines and no feeling whatsoever),

Patti Smith (a little goes a long way, enough already).

Even though there are some below-average readings, they are still honest

tributes...it's nice to hear 25 different interpretations of Kerouac,

the variety keeps it fresh. I heartily recommend this cd to any Kerouac

fan, it should be essential listening.

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:33:29 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Is there anyone else on Beat-l who thinks the whole Merry Prankster

reuinion tour thing is a totally pathetic attempt to revisit a time that

has entirely vanished and an even lamer attempt at bleeding the wallets

of suit&tie ex-hippies and younger hippie wannabes?

Sure, the pranksters seemed to have a rather novel idea at the time, but

for me the whole hippie thing of the sixties today seems shallow. Why do

these people keep clinging to the past? Ginsberg kept moving forward

after being an iconic figure in the flower power movement. The Grateful

Dead continued to do new things for years. Ken Kesey seems to be a

talented guy (Cuckoo's nest was brilliant) but with all his dwelling on

a time which has long since passed he comes off as nothing more than a

burnout desperately in need of a career boost. How long will Country Joe

keep singing his fixin-to-die rag and his eff-you-see-kay cheer?

I saw an interview with Kesey and the pranksters a couple days ago, and

despite their earnestness they looked nothing more than a pathetic

retread.

I really have no intention of offending anybody (just spoutin off)...I'd

like to hear what you all think about this to perhaps make me a little

less biased.

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:33:13 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg Question: AH

John Mitchell wrote:

>

> When Ginsberg autographed books after readings, he usually wrote AH! What

> does this sigature expression mean, refer to, express--just another form of

> OM! or something else? //John M.

>From Collected Poems (p.791):

"...one syllable summary of Prajnaparamita sutra; mantra for

purification of speech, and appreciation of space; related to Samatha

meditation practice, mindfulness of outbreath; a vocalization of the

outbreath."

>From Holy Soul Jelly Roll liner notes (p.21):

"During the 1968 Democratic Convention I did a lot of chanting "Om" to

calm myself, police, and crowds, and sometimes it worked. But in 1972

during a near-riot...in Boulder I asked Chogyam Trungpa [Allen's

Buddhist teacher], "Is there any mantra that can calm people down?" And

he said, "Why don't you try 'Ah'?"...[I] got in the middle of the group

who were going off to blockade a highway and started chanting "Ah" after

asking them to chant with me. Everybody sat down, then we discussed

strategy calmly rather than as a hysterical mob. "Om" closes out at the

end but "Ah" leaves the mouth open, breath goes out [see Ginsberg's Mind

Breaths poem for more]. On the 4th of July you see the fireworks and say

"Ah", or you recognize something and say "Ah!" When Trungpa said "Why

don't you try 'Ah'?" he joined an American sound with Himalayan wisdom,

and I've used it ever since. "Ah" for recognition, appreciation, the

intelligence of speech joining body and mind and for a measure of the

breath."

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:32:52 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: linux@cruzio.com

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> J--

>

> > Just curious. How many Linux users are there on Beat-L?

>

> I doubt very many (yet), but it's cool to see that at least someone else on

> the list is.

>

> When I went to Naropa a few summers ago I checked out the Beat Book Store in

> Boulder. Pretty cool place -- I got lost browsing through lots and lots of

> Beat and otherwise countercultural books, but some of the top books on my

> wantlist that summer weren't Beat at all -- namely, Terence McKenna's 2013

> mushroom treatise and Ted Nelson's _Literary Machines_ and _Computer Lib_.

> The latter is the first countercultural computer book (ca. '74) and the

> former is a good outline of the hypertext systems of the future. Since the

> one book was at least in the Whole Earth Review sphere of things and the

> other was about future electronic writing systems I figured there was at

> least a chance they'd have them at the BBS (couldn't find them in any

> mainstream outlets, that's for sure). But when I asked the proprietor

> (sitting on a chair wearing a Kerouac shirt) he looked at me like I was

> rambling incoherently during the final stages of a shroom comedown, barely

> letting out a "No, we ain't got no _computer_ books here," before

> quietly laughing to himself.

> .-

I love the way you end the story.

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:55:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

In-Reply-To: <33777E99.38BB@sk.sympatico.ca>

adrien

egads! i couldnt disagree more.

i think that the sensory assualt that the pranksters put forth is as valid

now as it was then. who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

other, both reminding poeple of what DID happen and jarring people into

thinnking what CAN happen? and as for his lit, kesey has done a lot more

than simple _one flew over the cuckoo's nest_ what about _sometimes a

great notion_, _sailor's song_ , _caverns_, _demon box_, "spit in the

ocean", _the further inquiry_, _trickster the squirrel meets big double

the bear_, _the last go round_ and the upcoming _twister_?

sure some pople could just see kesey as a thro-back to the 60's, but i

think that his lit & actions can be as inspiring now as then, and in my

opinion the dead would not have been the same w/o kesey (and even in

"modern" time they've worked together - try the beautiful and inspiring

and yet frightening and surging concert they did together in oakland

haloween 1990 as a tribute to bill graham (another throwback??) with kesey

rapping & reading over the dead's jamming?)

egad! dont lock him away yet!

yrs in wordrush

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:31:18 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

It's a very tenuous situation, that of the commemoration of an

revolution of consciousness (and have people see it as precisely

that, and no more) with a bus full of the countercultural aged. It's

almost too easy to see the guts hanging out of shrunken t-shirts and

bits (or more) of scalp emerging out from under an ever smaller nest

of remaining hair.

But if you look beyond all of those trappings (and it can be a TRIAL,

doing that), you might actually see something else, something with

purpose, something worth remembering, and something (dare I say it)

spiritual in their intent, and get the message.

Clay

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:43:49 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> sure some pople could just see kesey as a thro-back to the 60's, but i

> think that his lit & actions can be as inspiring now as then, and in my

> opinion the dead would not have been the same w/o kesey (and even in

> "modern" time they've worked together - try the beautiful and inspiring

> and yet frightening and surging concert they did together in oakland

> haloween 1990 as a tribute to bill graham (another throwback??) with kesey

> rapping & reading over the dead's jamming?)

> egad! dont lock him away yet!

> yrs in wordrush

> derek

Thanks Derek, for yr swift n speedy response...was waiting for that! Not

that I was Derek-baiting or anything...

I'm aware that Kesey's still productive, but the impression I get from

his constant revisiting and banking on the sixties is that it's focusing

the attention away from what he's doing today to his goofy escapades of

the past. Seems to me the hippies rode the Beats' coattails and ended up

parodying themselves in the end...

As a (scuse the term) genx-er I'm more aware than others of the cultural

implications of the hippie movement and the pranksters than the average

person my age, but when I see Kesey and his old buddies don't have

anything better to do than try to recreate the sixties, the cynic in me

is immediately turned off (despite their admirable spirit). The purpose

of reading the Beats and latter-Beats today I think is to take their

energy and ideas and spirit and go forward, incorporate them with living

in the 90's, not pretending time stopped when Hendrix closed Woodstock.

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:12:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Pranksters hit Cleveland

In a message dated 97-05-11 20:28:20 EDT, you write:

<<

Big Brother and the Holding Company finished up with a Janis clone who was

actually pretty good. I thought it was a bit depressing though, to go and

make

a living this way with the Janis clone but hopefully, they do it only on

special occaisions. >>

My father used to share a bunch of apartments on Bush St. in San Fransico

with Big Brother while they were getting started and playing at the Fillmore

and Avalon Ballroom. I just can't get over how amazing those early days must

have been before people started writing songs about California and all these

losers came by to check out the scene. He <dad> also went to all those Kesey

acid parties and such... i just think it's so amazing that... well since i am

young i just can't imagine how wonderful things were, and how things have

changed so....

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:16:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: No Jumping

A few weeks ago I was down in Big Sur and as a result I read Kerouac's BIG

SUR. Besides wondering about going crazy out there, since I know it can

happen to anyone who is surrounded by the sounds of quiet solitude, I noticed

that on the Bixby Bridge (which is the bridge under which Kerouac stayed), it

says -- NO JUMPING. It is the only bridge there on Route 1 to say that.

What's up with that?

By the way, it is a very high bridge.

I'm now reading Brautigan's CONFEDERATE GENERAL FROM BIG SUR. Is it

coincidence?

Kerouac also says that he walked 14 miles from the canyon (which he calls

Raton Canyon) to Monterey, while it really is like 30 miles or so. Did he say

that just so people wouldn't know where he had stayed (Ferlinghetti's cabin)

or was he just mistaken on the distances.

lost in solitude in California, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:32:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg reads but I don't listen

In a message dated 97-05-12 14:46:23 EDT, you write:

<< I basically LIKE hearing Ginsberg and

Burroughs read, whatever it is, though lately, hearing Ginsberg read

Mexico City Blues, I found myself tiring of him probably for the

first time. >>

I have to admit that Ginsberg reading of DHARMA BUMS was terrible. I had to

laugh at most of it because Ginsberg's voice came off as so whiney and hokey.

I also never liked his recording of HOWL on Fantasy records. I've seen him

read in the last 5 years and he never sounded like that to me. Did they pick

the worst possible recording on purpose?

signing off in a not whiney voice, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:25:30 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

In-Reply-To: <33778F15.36F9@sk.sympatico.ca>

> I'm aware that Kesey's still productive, but the impression I get from

> his constant revisiting and banking on the sixties is that it's focusing

> the attention away from what he's doing today to his goofy escapades of

> the past.

sorry i didnt realize that his goofy escapades had stopped. i thought that

was just ken kesey being ken kesey & having a real good time.

> Seems to me the hippies rode the Beats' coattails and ended up

> parodying themselves in the end...

e gad! are you sure yr not baiting me? dont you think that maybe the media

was the one that did the parodying (like displying yr "genx" as slacker

toque & flannel wearing idiots, with nothing better to do than mosh?)

"hippie" is simply a label (& once you label you limit). i didnt know that

kesey & leary & diprima (to bring in a beat) & hoffman & etc were

parodying themselves i thot (for at least some) they were living the way

THAY wanted and were sometimes parodying the "system" (like the chicago 7

trial, for instance)

> As a (scuse the term) genx-er I'm more aware than others of the cultural

> implications of the hippie movement

EXACTLY! gen-x (or a,b,c,d, or whatever) is a term, like "hippie" is a

term, these are just PEOPLE living the way they wanted to. and some have

continued to live in a similar style, and some have not & some like to get

together & party & have some fun (and if that means getting together in an

old bus and travelling & inviting everyone else in the country ala ken &

the pranksters, why not?)

> and the pranksters than the average

> person my age, but when I see Kesey and his old buddies don't have

> anything better to do than try to recreate the sixties, the cynic in me

> is immediately turned off (despite their admirable spirit). The purpose

they arent recreating ion my opinion. they're celebrating! and enjoying!

and remembering! and thanking! this is a special occasion, why not

celebrate & have fun with it? (and as for not brnging it into the 90's

well kesey & co have been online at all their stops & leary was a great

proponent of the net & if nothing else wavy's still around ("vote for

nobody! nobody for president!") no?

> of reading the Beats and latter-Beats today I think is to take their

> energy and ideas and spirit and go forward, incorporate them with living

> in the 90's, not pretending time stopped when Hendrix closed Woodstock.

bushwah! the same can be said about "hippies" & "yippies" and etc or

whatever you wanna call 'em. there was just a discussion last week about

where the "hippie" lit was and what was and what wasnt "hippie lit"

(brautigan, etc). can nothing be learned from the people of the 60's same

as the 50's? and isnt yr argument the same thats frequently used against

the beats by conservative critics (change with the times, etc)?

are you sure yr not baiting me?

peace. (wink wink)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:32:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

At 07:56 PM 5/10/97 +0200, Rinaldo wrote:

>i am dumb!

>i am dumb!

dumb am i?

dumb am i?

ekiM

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:26:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: No Jumping

At 05:16 PM 5/12/97 -0400, Atilla wrote:

>A few weeks ago I was down in Big Sur and as a result

>I read Kerouac's BIG SUR.

<sniperooni>

>I'm now reading Brautigan's CONFEDERATE GENERAL

>FROM BIG SUR.

Hey Atilla,

Since there seems to be a Big Sur theme, try Henry Miller's

_Big Sur and the Oranges of Hieronymus Bosch_ (Kerouac's

missed meeting w/ Mr. Miller was chronicalled in K's

_Big Sur_ I believe? Someone remember this?).

Mike (was Kesey present at the "Celebration at Big Sur?" {;^>)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:22:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

and?

----------

: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject:

: Date: Saturday, May 10, 1997 12:56 PM

:

: i am dumb!

: i am dumb!

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:38:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970512134717.18000A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

I have to concur with Derek on this.

Although i have not seen the pranksters, i think its great that theyre out

there still kickin up a storm.

Adrien, to say that theyre just living off past glories suggests that the

"hippie" lifestyle is merely a weird aberration from accepted "normal"

living, which may be true for some, but for many being a hippie in the

real sense IS what livings all about. One doesnt HAVE TO go by the way

others feel the 90's should be.

sincerely,

Eric

rhs4@crystal.palace.net

P.S. Of course time did not stop when Jimi's Woodstock set concluded. He

still had about a year's worth of music to go!

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:53:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

<Sure, the pranksters seemed to have a rather novel idea at the time, but

<for me the whole hippie thing of the sixties today seems shallow. Why do

<these people keep clinging to the past?.... The Grateful

<Dead continued to do new things for years.

What? How can you claim that Kessey is stuck in the past, but the Dead

were somehow trail blazers? If you think Kessey is stuck in the past then

the Dead definitely were. Look at the average Dead-head's wardrobe...that

doesn't scream 60's? Maybe it is just me.....

Dean Palmer--

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:57:01 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> i am dumb!

> i am dumb!

> .-

don't you wish! (sometimes....)

don't you wish! (sometimes...)

Disclaimer: We are just kidding, right?

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:06:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: kerouackicksjoydarkness

i seem to recall someone expressing similar sentiments here on this list a

few weeks ago, but just to re-manifest the subject, i am a bit at odds with

the background """"""music""""" to MacDougal Street Blues. When i first read

this pome a while back, i thought of blue sky and the true true OM of

citylife and the zen-vastness of the pavement in washington square park

(purely of my own odd thought relations).

anyhow, point being that this beat (ohoh, NOOO pun intended!! quite the

opposite in fact!!!) in the background seemed to close all the doors on the

pome and put it against a dark background in stead of an orange and blue

sun/sky. took away all openness that i loved bout the pome. (dontmean to be

too wordy here, but word are in life to use. im young! im not maturely

articulate!)

how do you all feel about this?

-buona serata, ginny

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:04:40 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: cc: dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> e gad! are you sure yr not baiting me? dont you think that maybe the media

> was the one that did the parodying (like displying yr "genx" as slacker

> toque & flannel wearing idiots, with nothing better to do than mosh?)

> "hippie" is simply a label (& once you label you limit). i didnt know that

> kesey & leary & diprima (to bring in a beat) & hoffman & etc were

> parodying themselves i thot (for at least some) they were living the way

> THAY wanted and were sometimes parodying the "system" (like the chicago 7

> trial, for instance)

Gah, what have I gotten myself into???

I realize, Derek, there's no way I can continue this discussion without

backing myself into a corner only to get Beaten to a bloody pulp by yr

retorts.

I have nothing against Kesey, Leary, & diPrima...

> isnt yr argument the same thats frequently used against

> the beats by conservative critics (change with the times, etc)?

Must be the conservative closeminded smalltown hick in me that took

over...

All yr points are valid, Derek, and I agree with much of what you have

to say, but I'm sorry, the Pranksters' reunion thing seems less as a fun

artistic endeavour and more of a moneymaking venture, which, to a

sometimes closeminded cynical fencesitter like myself, well...reeks.

Bruised, battered, bleeding, but still steadfast in my belief that the

Prankster reunion is a joke,

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:12:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

At 06:47 PM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-10 18:24:42 EDT, you write:

>

><< Jim Sampas (a guy in his 30s or so) is a

> nephew, I'm not sure what brother's son. >>

>

>The dead one....

>

>

This was my fault. I thought John Sampas was Stella Kerouac's nephew. I

did not know he was so old.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:10:31 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

derek wrote:

>

>as for hst - how could you be familiar with him but not his work? and well

>his voice ive never heard his voice before this cd, and its exactly what i

>thot it would sound like. the 5:00am rush somehow fits with his books, etc

>and i think that i would have been disappointed with something done sober

>in the daylight, no?

>

Hi, derek! How could I be familiar with him but not his work? Easy. I have

several friends who are HST fans, so I know about him; also see things in

reviews (very occasionally). Anyway, it all gives me an impression of who he is

and what he does, but I haven't read more than 500 words of his and have never

heard his voice. I also know who 2 Pac is, but have never listened to his

music. I know who Jessie Helms is and what he says, but have never read

anything he's written nor have heard his voice. Same with HST.

So, perhaps it's a case like me with WSB back in December (remember? I was the

one posting stuff like "how can we respect a man who shot his wife???").

Somehow, though, the guy has grown on me. Now I've read WSB (_Ghost_ and

_Junky_ and have watched a bio/doc on video, as well as video of his cut-ups and

some other stuff. I like him. I really love to listen to him read. Maybe the

same will happen with HST. But having never heard his voice, HST's reading on

this CD was a major disappointment to me: I'd heard so much about him, and this

was less than a drunken 16-year-old (nothing against them, mind you!) could have

done.

Just confessing my ignorance... but at this point, I still think his reading

stunk. Probaby a matter of taste. I used to hate lima beans, too, and now like

them quite well!

Regards! ---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:15:31 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joys, Darkness

Somebody wrote:

>

>I thought it pretty typical HST. In readings etc. he comes off as a drunken,

>doped-up slob (which he probably is), but his writing is very fine. Even

>through all his shenanigans there's a certain precision which comes through

>in all his writings, and I'm not sure you get it during his spoken word,

>where the drunken craziness is more in the forefront.

>

Hey, maybe you and derek can recommend a book of HST's. You say his writing is

very fine . . . what would you (and other HST fans) recommend? My HST fan

friends say _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ . . . would you recommend that one

for an HST beginner? Or is another book better? Please keep in mind my disdain

for his recording on "Kicks..."!!!

Thanks! ---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:32:52 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: yet more, yet more about the cd.

well, I've finally found a subject I'm more or less qualified to talk

about, so I'm milking it for all it's worth... (I originally mistyped

"milking" as "miling" which come to think could be a better word.) Anyway.

To business :

Macdougal Street Blues is one of those pieces that gets a kind of

idiosyncratic treatment... perhaps on purpose since it's actually JK

reading th'damn thing. After listening lots I decided I like it... I mean

to me the true Om of city is as much often as otherwise the feeling of

being enclosed by the whole thing ; you understand shut in but still, as

it were, moving along briskly, which to me is what this treatment does.

Nowadays I actually listen to it on purpose quite frequently. It probably

depends a deal on what city you're listening to it in...

Incidentally, thanks Derek for the info on R.Hunter.

Everyone take care,

Olly R.

____________________________________________________________________

"If I had a gun... I would give you your freedom."

____________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:40:48 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: death to the weird.

Hunter S.T. being something of a hero to me, I'm going to chip in on this

one also. Las Vegas is undeniably a good piece of work, but my personal

call would be the Great Shark Hunt (esp. pieces like Strange Rumblings in

Aztlan & The Banshee Screams for Buffalo Meat which are two of the finest

slabs of journalism I have ever encountered.) or Fear and Loathing : On

the Campaign Trail 72 which you can tell is a great book purely from

reading the slightly rococo chapter summaries in the contents... the man

is/was (factoring in nonexistent recent output) a genius. My theory is

this : it's relatively easy for music or writing to bring you down, but

the real trick lies in an artist who can revitalise you and haul you back

up regardless of your circumstance... on the whole, the Beats could do

this, and so could Hunter, & that's the reason I love them. I'd implore

you not to write the guy off... since in his own way he's up against the

edge as close as anybody ever was, self-mythology notwithstanding.

Olly.

____________________________________________________________________

"If I had a gun... I would give you your freedom."

____________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:45:38 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and

ignored.

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>

In-Reply-To: <3377A208.13F0@sk.sympatico.ca>

adrien

please dont misunderstand i am NOT beating you up (no pun intended). ok

then?

and if nothing else - who better to make a money making JOKE than the

merry pranksters?

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:12:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joys, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863481476@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Wes Lundburg wrote:

> Somebody wrote:

> >

> >I thought it pretty typical HST. In readings etc. he comes off as a drunken,

> >doped-up slob (which he probably is), but his writing is very fine.

>

> Hey, maybe you and derek can recommend a book of HST's. You say his writing

is

> very fine . . . what would you (and other HST fans) recommend?

Well, _...Las Vegas_ is the standard HST intro, and I think it's a good

one -- pretty much sums up where he's at, both in writing ability and

philosophies. If you want a shorter intro then check out "The Kentucky Derby

is Decadent and Depraved," which is in Tom Wolfe's essential _New

Journalism_ as well as HST's _Great Shark Hunt_. I think _The Great Shark

Hunt_ is another good place to start -- its a collection of early HST

magazine/news pieces, and it's one of my favorites. Also for some good early

stuff check out his first novel, _Hell's Angels_. By this time you should

completely turned off to his brand of backwoods hillbilly dope fiend

intellectualism, but if not -- if you find yourself hooked to the 5am

ravings of a mad lunatic -- then maybe the series of books called the Gonzo

Papers are a good place to go next.

m

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:27:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: British Beats

Check out Alexander Trocchi as a Brit Beat. Jeff should have some of his

books.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:36:33 -0400

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: kicks/joy/darkness: macdougal street blues

(my honest apologies if this a repeat, sent already, tho i dont think so...)

i seem to recall someone expressing similar sentiments here on this list a

few weeks ago, but just to re-manifest the subject, i am a bit at odds with

the background """"""music""""" to MacDougal Street Blues. When i first read

this pome a while back, i thought of blue sky and the true true OM of

citylife and the zen-vastness of the pavement in washington square park

(purely of my own odd thought relations).

anyhow, point being that this beat (ohoh, NOOO pun intended!! quite the

opposite in fact!!!) in the background seemed to close all the doors on the

pome and put it against a dark background in stead of an orange and blue

sun/sky. took away all openness that i loved bout the pome. (dontmean to be

too wordy here, but word are in life to use. im young! im not maturely

articulate!)

how do you all feel about this?

-buona serata, ginny

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:37:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: No Jumping

In a message dated 97-05-12 19:31:56 EDT, you write:

> (Kerouac's

> missed meeting w/ Mr. Miller was chronicalled in K's

> _Big Sur_ I believe? Someone remember this?).

yes. it was.

jack was such a responsible and respectable young man, now wasnt he.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:43:35 -0700

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS

>........

>NOW PHILLIPS IS IN A CONSPIRACY TOO GERRY I SEE WHAT ROD MEANT ABOUT YOU

>BEING PARANOID.....

>

>GERRY YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT THE XEROX COPIES IS PRETTY PATHETIC. I THINK IF A

>UNIVERSITY WERE TO COPY A MANUSCRIPT OR LETTER IT WOULDN'T MISS PAGES OR

>WORDS COME ON GERRY ARE YOU FOR REAL?...

>I DON'T KNOW BRAD AND I HAVE NEVER MET HIM. HE HAS WRITTEN SOME GOOD KEROUAC

>STUFF THOUGH. I HAVE HEARD THAT HE IS YOUR MOUTHPIECE IN LOWELL SO IT

>DOESN'T SURPRISE ME ABOUT THIS LETTER....

Dear Phil, May 12, 1997

When you find you can't answer my questions, shouting won't help.

You never answered about why Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! didn't invite me or

Jan from 1988 through 1994, before there was any lawsuit. You also ignore

the fact that when Brad Parker invited me to Lowell to speak in 1993 and

1994, I spoke, respectively, about Kerouac's self-destructiveness and about

his spirituality--not about lawsuits. Jan was invited by Brad to speak in

1994, and she didn't speak about lawsuits either.

You're back to lying again. I didn't sell my archive "to the

highest bidder." It was appraised at $15,000 and I sold it at $7,500 so

that the University of Lowell could afford it, and I even allowed the

university to pay me over a three-year period, to make it more affordable

for them. I could have made far more money breaking the archive up, as Mr.

Sampas has begun to do with the Kerouac Archive. Just the 60 stolen letters

(written to me from Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs, et al.) could bring

$20,000 at today's prices. And there are 25,000 other documents, not to

mention 300 tapes, in the collection.

If anyone is paranoid, I'd say it's you. Now I have Brad Parker,

Joe Grant, and half the university archivists in America as my "mouthpiece"!

This whole thing has become a bad joke, Phil. Know your place. THE

WORLD OF SCHOLARLY RESEARCH DOES NOT HANG ON THE WORDS OF PHIL CHAPUT. Do

you expect the thousands of Kerouac and Beat scholars around the world to

say, "OK, we don't need the Jack Kerouac archive, since we have the word of

Phil Chaput that a few dozen xeroxes are just as good."

Here's the sworn statement of Matthew J. Bruccoli, one of the

preeminent living scholars today, the man who put F. Scott Fitzgerald

scholarship on the map, and currently Jeffries Professor of American

Literature at the University of South Carolina and Honorary Curator of the

F. Scott Fitzgerald Collection at the Thomas Cooper Library:

"I am certain that the Jack Kerouac papers would be of greater use

to researchers if kept together than if scattered. I am also certain that

major libraries will be prepared to acquire the Kerouac Papers en bloc for

the use of scholars."

Go talk to Dr. Bruccoli about xeroxes--if you can get an appointment

with him.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:40:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

philly the dilly wrote

> I WILL PUT MY RESPONSE IN CAPS JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ.

>

> NO I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE I'M GOING TO PUKE....

>

phil, why would i doubt your other arguments after you explain your use

of caps, not as shouting but so we can read you better, yeh I GET IT!

wheres the meat

i puts you right up there with the katsinjammers.

i think that you are impotent in the pissing contest.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:54:30 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joys, Darkness

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863481476@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

wes

absolutely

start with _fear & loathing las vegas_ and then go from there. it all

starts in vegas & a truck full of drugs, 2 crazed loonies & the good ol'

USA.

good luck

let me/us know know how it goes

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:04:13 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joys, Darkness

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> wes

> absolutely

> start with _fear & loathing las vegas_ and then go from there. it all

> starts in vegas & a truck full of drugs, 2 crazed loonies & the good ol'

> USA.

> good luck

> let me/us know know how it goes

> derek

i'm not in to HST yet....i had heard rumours of a guy i knew from

Lexington having partied with HST....i always figured they were just

typical legendmaking....now that i heard this title about the Kentucky

Derby it makes me wonder....is that one about partying in Lexington???

when did it happen? is there anybody named J.W. in it???

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:38:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Please Ken, go no Furthur!

I think looking at the Prankster reunion as an attempt to cling to the 60s is a

shallow way to look at it. Here is a group of people who have a great

philosophy of life, to have fun, be creative (and never trust a prankster).

They have stuck to and continued that creed since before the 60s. Sure, some

people slow down with age but Kesey is still writing, still exploring, still

having fun, to see him as being limited to a ten year period in the century is

to limit yourself. Are people that listen to classical music stuck in the 18th

century? I don't care when the Fish Cheer was written, I hope I'm still singing

it in the year 2020. I spoke with Ken and the Pranksters about many things,

hardly any of which had much to do with the 60s.

If anything, maybe big brother may be a bit stuck in the 60s with their Janis

clone but hey, it was still a good show.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:38:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Dr. Sax vs. Last of the Moccasins

At 09:18 PM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-09 20:30:29 EDT, you write:

>

><< As someone who's done a fair amount of Kerouac lit. criticism I'm

> astonished by your grasp of DR SAX. What you say is not only solid

> criticism but it's also fun to read. >>

>

>Gerry:

>So Pam said to me awhile ago when that Lost Generation thread came up -- that

>movement's writers had similar styles. In the Beat writers there are similar

>"trace elements" and varied styles, but my pleasure in reading Dr. Sax and

>casting the whole critique in a poor metaphorically fight ring did produce

>another insight: That is Kerouac was steeped in the university canons of the

>50s, many of which were venturing into the expatriates, Joyce etal. It seems

>Kerouac was swinging quite heavily, really fighting towards (for?) Epiphany,

>which was a deeply engrained battle of the mind in the history of literature.

>Kerouac's contemporaries may have dumped this so to speak, especially

>Burroughs whose canvas was more like Pollocks until he went ballistics... as

>future literacies seem look at the broad canvas conceptually or

>minimallisctically, looping back upon the quantum, or whatever else has

>mainframed Postmodernism to a mode of rhetoric rather than a movement.

>I was also reminded while reading the book of just how Allen mimicked

>Kerouac's "voice". I assume it was that way rather than the other way around.

>Even in all the little innuendos and inventions.

>Is it true what was in the Kesey post about Allen's last words?

>

Charley, May 12, 1997

What fascinates me about your criticism is that it's all in poetic

shorthand, which allows you to say in one paragraph what would probably take

several pages for the average academic (and probably for me too, though I've

fought against the academic in my prose since I dumped my UCLA fellowship

back in 1975).

My only comments: Yes, I agree!

And yes, clearly it was Ginsberg imitating Kerouac's voice, not the

other way around.

I didn't read the Kesey post about Allen's last words? What were

they? I heard it was something about vomiting and saying, "I've never done

that before"?

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:53:15 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: To Olly, m, and derek (and others, too)

Olly, m, and derek (and whoever else chipped in suggestions):

Thanks for the HST suggestions. He's now officially on my summer reading list.

The notes you attached have especially intrigued me.... I'm not writing him off

until I read his work!

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:00:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

At 06:23 PM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-08 04:49:29 EDT, you write:

>

><< In my ignorance I guess I was under the mistaken impression that John

>Sampas

> was one of Stella's brothers, a guy pehaps in his 60-70's. >>

>

>John Sampas is Stella's brother. Jim Sampas (a guy in his 30s or so) is a

>nephew, I'm not sure what brother's son.

>George Sampas...

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:55:19 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: Pranksters hit Cleveland

At 05:12 PM 5/12/97 -0400, Jeanne Vaccaro wrote:

I just can't get over how amazing those early days must

>have been <snip>.

i just think it's so amazing that... well since i am

>young i just can't imagine how wonderful things were, and how things have

>changed so....

I remember the University District in Seattle

in the late 1960s, then mid 1970s, and early 1990s.

What was "wonderful" was that people wandered around

with a sense of Spirited Wonder...some chemically induced,

yet some was the spirit of the time -- a conscious

ideology or philosophy that people reinforced in one another

in a fairly open-minded, laissez-faire way -- to appreciate Life!

It wasn't always sustainable --these were a mix of realistic and

unrealistically high ideals about what Life could be.

The Merry Pranksters -- do they invoke, celebrate, commemorate,

the spirit of wonder? We learned they don't have to spike the

Kool-Aid. Do get up off our stretchers and live again, with the

wisdom of age but the enthusiasm of Eternal Youth?

I yield the floor.... now I am levitating so to speak (if blather blather!!)

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:30:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Cast of Characters

Bravely running out into no man's land, dodging bullets and land mines to say...

Ahem! Hrumph!

It would be useful to actually put together the cast of characters.

I was at the Lord Buckley Bash a little more than a year ago and one of the

Sampas's was there doing a great job on Buckley's Train piece, although the

ending defeated him. I believe that was Jim Sampas and I see on my copy of

"kicks joy darkness" that the producer is also Jim Sampas. So where do he

and the other Sampas's fit in? I'll throw this out for those who know the

answers to complete....Phil? Gerry? Jeffrey? The three of you probably have

it right at your fingertips.

Charley older brother of Sammy; newspaper columnist

Sebastian "Sammy", best friend of Jack, died in 1944

...same as Alex / "Sabby" in the Charters biography, I

assume, but which name is right

Jim, member of the foreign service

Stella married Jack in 1966 after having been asked 17 years

previously, but declining

Nick, bartender / owner of Nicky's

Tony, younger brother of Sammy, former OSS guerilla, night manager

at Nicky's

John, brother of ? -----------------------father of son Jim(?)

...and Paul Maher mentions George as brother of Sammy/Stella and

father of Jim...

So, who else to fill in all the blanks.......

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:34:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: SoRRY (Bill Gargan)

Sorry guys for posting this on the list, but im going home tomorrow and i

dont think ill be able to check this address's mail anymore and i need to

unsubscribe for this address, and i have all the directions on how to do

that, but there in a book that i dont have with me right now, so Bill,

could you please unsubscribe me and then i will be able to resubscribe

when im home under my mom's address. Thanks A lot!

I will see you all soon. well, not really see you, but, well, ...yeah.

-matt

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:36:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Hunter S.Thompson ouevre

Wes,

Also worth trying are "Curse of Lono" with one of the funniest

openers ever....that blue dye in those airline toilets really stains your

skin!?! ...and "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail." this last is

going to be a little bit dated, but I'm sure it still has a bite.

Antoine ....whose "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" is out on loan

to his son who calls each night to reassure me about its condition and

whereabouts!

************************

>Somebody wrote:

>

>>

>>I thought it pretty typical HST. In readings etc. he comes off as a drunken,

>>doped-up slob (which he probably is), but his writing is very fine. Even

>>through all his shenanigans there's a certain precision which comes through

>>in all his writings, and I'm not sure you get it during his spoken word,

>>where the drunken craziness is more in the forefront.

>>

>

>Hey, maybe you and derek can recommend a book of HST's. You say his writing is

>very fine . . . what would you (and other HST fans) recommend? My HST fan

>friends say _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ . . . would you recommend that one

>for an HST beginner? Or is another book better? Please keep in mind my

disdain

>for his recording on "Kicks..."!!!

>

>Thanks! ---Wes

>

>

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:37:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

At 06:40 PM 5/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>philly the dilly wrote

Oh if your gonna call me philly the dilly I'm gonna call you fatty Patty.

na na na na naa

>> I WILL PUT MY RESPONSE IN CAPS JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ.

>>

>> NO I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE I'M GOING TO PUKE....

>>

>phil, why would i doubt your other arguments after you explain your use

>of caps, not as shouting but so we can read you better, yeh I GET IT!

>wheres the meat

I meant so you could distiquish my response from Gerry's easier not so you

could literally read the words easier. DUH!

But sorry if that offended you fatty Patty.

>

>i puts you right up there with the katsinjammers.

>i think that you are impotent in the pissing contest.

>p

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:40:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joys, Darkness

At 04:15 PM 5/12/97 CDT, you wrote:

>Somebody wrote:

>

>>

>>I thought it pretty typical HST. In readings etc. he comes off as a drunken,

>>doped-up slob (which he probably is), but his writing is very fine. Even

>>through all his shenanigans there's a certain precision which comes through

>>in all his writings, and I'm not sure you get it during his spoken word,

>>where the drunken craziness is more in the forefront.

>>

>

>Hey, maybe you and derek can recommend a book of HST's. You say his writing is

>very fine . . . what would you (and other HST fans) recommend? My HST fan

>friends say _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ . . . would you recommend that one

>for an HST beginner? Or is another book better? Please keep in mind my

disdain

>for his recording on "Kicks..."!!!

>

>Thanks! ---Wes

>

just jumping in here I gotta say that Fear & Loathing is a masterpiece of

exactly what the title implies which makes it sure fire regardless yet

however is excellent for a first! it's a fast easy and hillarious read. . .

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:39:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

Phil Chaput wrote:

>

> At 06:40 PM 5/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >philly the dilly wrote

>

> Oh if your gonna call me philly the dilly I'm gonna call you fatty Patty.

> na na na na naa

> >> I WILL PUT MY RESPONSE IN CAPS JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ.

> >>

> >> NO I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE I'M GOING TO PUKE....

> >>

> >phil, why would i doubt your other arguments after you explain your use

> >of caps, not as shouting but so we can read you better, yeh I GET IT!

> >wheres the meat

>

> I meant so you could distiquish my response from Gerry's easier not so you

> could literally read the words easier. DUH!

> But sorry if that offended you fatty Patty.

> >

> >i puts you right up there with the katsinjammers.

> >i think that you are impotent in the pissing contest.

> >p

> >

> >you didn't offend me , you didn't understand my point, you bored me with the

name calling and lack of substance,, it was like you thought we would reach a

conclusion on issues based on how nasty you were. duh

i am huge, often when someone gets on my nerves by being shrill, i

simply lean forward and one of my giant boobs pop out and smothers the

poor guy,

hey get a sense of humour,

p

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:58:33 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: No Jumping

Attila

I think the "no jumping sign" is an attempt to deter bungee jumpers. It

is a great site for that.

Without checking my map, I don't think Kerouac is too far off. The Big

Sur Marathon runs it's 26.2 miles from considerably south of Bixby

Canyon north into Carmel, and Monterey is only a few miles further.

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> A few weeks ago I was down in Big Sur and as a result I read Kerouac's BIG

> SUR. Besides wondering about going crazy out there, since I know it can

> happen to anyone who is surrounded by the sounds of quiet solitude, I noticed

> that on the Bixby Bridge (which is the bridge under which Kerouac stayed), it

> says -- NO JUMPING. It is the only bridge there on Route 1 to say that.

> What's up with that?

>

> By the way, it is a very high bridge.

>

> I'm now reading Brautigan's CONFEDERATE GENERAL FROM BIG SUR. Is it

> coincidence?

>

> Kerouac also says that he walked 14 miles from the canyon (which he calls

> Raton Canyon) to Monterey, while it really is like 30 miles or so. Did he say

> that just so people wouldn't know where he had stayed (Ferlinghetti's cabin)

> or was he just mistaken on the distances.

>

> lost in solitude in California, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:19:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

At 10:39 PM 5/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Phil Chaput wrote:

>>

>> At 06:40 PM 5/12/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> >philly the dilly wrote

>>

>> Oh if your gonna call me philly the dilly I'm gonna call you fatty Patty.

>> na na na na naa

>> >> I WILL PUT MY RESPONSE IN CAPS JUST TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ.

>> >>

>> >> NO I CAN'T TAKE ANY MORE I'M GOING TO PUKE....

>> >>

>> >phil, why would i doubt your other arguments after you explain your use

>> >of caps, not as shouting but so we can read you better, yeh I GET IT!

>> >wheres the meat

>>

>> I meant so you could distiquish my response from Gerry's easier not so you

>> could literally read the words easier. DUH!

>> But sorry if that offended you fatty Patty.

>> >

>> >i puts you right up there with the katsinjammers.

>> >i think that you are impotent in the pissing contest.

>> >p

>> >

>> >you didn't offend me , you didn't understand my point, you bored me with the

> name calling and lack of substance,, it was like you thought we would reach a

> conclusion on issues based on how nasty you were. duh

>

>i am huge, often when someone gets on my nerves by being shrill, i

>simply lean forward and one of my giant boobs pop out and smothers the

>poor guy,

>hey get a sense of humour,

>

>I do have a sense of humor (I get the point ,about your boob that is) and

you seem to have one too. My friends actually do call me philzi though.

Bravo you got me. Philzi the dilzi

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:58:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Final estate details (for a while)

> When you find you can't answer my questions, shouting won't help.

Gerry like I explained I put my response in caps to make it easier to read.

It is a common practice to make it easier to distinguish one person from

another in a long e-mail message. I didn't mean so you could literally read

it easier. But I will keep it lower case so you won't think I'm SHOUTING.

>You never answered about why Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! didn't invite me or

>Jan from 1988 through 1994, before there was any lawsuit.

I don't know why I wasn't on the committee then but there are lots of people

we haven't invited yet don't feel left out. I know why we haven't invited

you. After reading all your posts I figured it out. Your a nut case.

You also ignore

>the fact that when Brad Parker invited me to Lowell to speak in 1993

Pretty bad when the only one who will invite you is your friend Brad Parker.

Besides if he wants you every year we wouldn't want to step on his toes.

and

>1994, I spoke, respectively, about Kerouac's self-destructiveness and about

>his spirituality--not about lawsuits. Jan was invited by Brad to speak in

>1994, and she didn't speak about lawsuits either.

> You're back to lying again. I didn't sell my archive "to the

>highest bidder." It was appraised at $15,000 and I sold it at $7,500 so

>that the University of Lowell could afford it, and I even allowed the

>university to pay me over a three-year period, to make it more affordable

>for them.

Are you trying to tell me you got offered $15,000 for it? Gerry no one

wanted it and when you couldn't get anyone to buy it you finally sold it to

U-Lowell for whatever terms you could get. Don't come on like you had all

these big offers and then you did U-Lowell a favor out of the kindness of

your heart.You didn't even offer it to them until you tried everyone else

and they didn't want it.Now I know why no one else wanted it cause you never

had permission from the people you interviewed. Remember Gerry people in

Lowell know what was going on then because we were here. You can't buffalo

us like you do with the people on the beat-l.

You told the beat-l people that John Sampas closed the archive. That's not

true and you know Martha Mayo told you that's not true. Here is a line from

the June 10, 1996 article in the Lowell Sun that I know you read.

"But since a Connecticut women called the Mogan center 18 months ago to

request that the public not be allowed to hear her interview with Nicosia

the tapes have sat in two steel file cabinet drawers....Sorry, but if you

want to listen to the taped interviews, you must have written permission

from the subjects. If they are dead, you must have permission from their

estates. University officials say that because Nicosia never got written

permission from his subjects to let the public review their interviews, it

now owns a "crippled" collection of tapes....Martha Mayo says "It was my

understanding that permission was given. It was implicit that had been done

between the author and the people interviewed. But people didn't know it

would be placed in a public institution....

Again Gerry that's not me saying this it is Martha Mayo of U-Lowell and an

article in the Lowell Sun.

cause it was I could have made far more money breaking the archive up, as Mr.

>Sampas has begun to do with the Kerouac Archive. Just the 60 stolen letters

>(written to me from Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs, et al.) could bring

>$20,000 at today's prices. And there are 25,000 other documents, not to

>mention 300 tapes, in the collection.

> If anyone is paranoid, I'd say it's you. Now I have Brad Parker,

>Joe Grant, and half the university archivists in America as my "mouthpiece"!

I only mentioned that Brad was your mouthpiece in Lowell I never said

anything about Jo Grant or university archivist being your mouthpiece at all.

> This whole thing has become a bad joke, Phil. Know your place.

Know my place? Does that mean your above me and my place is below you. Gerry

they use to tell blacks in the south "know your place" That's not a very

nice thing to say to someone.

THE

>WORLD OF SCHOLARLY RESEARCH DOES NOT HANG ON THE WORDS OF PHIL CHAPUT.

Gerry are you shouting like you told me not to? Read your first sentence

above.For shame. For shame.

>you expect the thousands of Kerouac and Beat scholars around the world to

>say, "OK, we don't need the Jack Kerouac archive, since we have the word of

>Phil Chaput that a few dozen xeroxes are just as good."

> Here's the sworn statement of Matthew J. Bruccoli, one of the

>preeminent living scholars today, the man who put F. Scott Fitzgerald

>scholarship on the map, and currently Jeffries Professor of American

>Literature at the University of South Carolina and Honorary Curator of the

>F. Scott Fitzgerald Collection at the Thomas Cooper Library:

> "I am certain that the Jack Kerouac papers would be of greater use

>to researchers if kept together than if scattered. I am also certain that

>major libraries will be prepared to acquire the Kerouac Papers en bloc for

>the use of scholars."

> Go talk to Dr. Bruccoli about xeroxes--if you can get an appointment

>with him.

This last argument above is really lame. You don't need a sworn statement (A

sworn statement mind you ) to know an archive is better in one place than

scattered any fool could tell you that. You really didn't need that sworn

statement from (Dr. Carrot)the smartest man in the world for that Gerry.

Gerry why don't we mutually end this I think the beat-l members are getting

sick of it and we will meet in Lowell someday and have a "gentlemen's

argument" about it all.I'll buy you another free meal. Bring a copy of your

book inscribed to my father and I'll put it on his grave at least then you

will have fulfilled one promise that you made to a dead person.

To be fair. Don't write to me for a while I won't be able to answer you. I'm

going to Greece for a few weeks with John Sampas to spend some of Stella's

hard earned money. Philly the Dilly (ha ha)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:28:46 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Final (?)estate details (for a while)

Guys, this is really getting good. Love the smell of a really intense

ad hominem war any old time. And I declare Patricia Elliott the

winner--at least on the female side. Now if you gentleman will step up

to the bar, we can get out our rulers and see who has the biggest . . .

Rooting from the sidelines

James Stauffer

Phil Chaput wrote: . . .

>

> I don't know why I wasn't on the committee then but there are lots of people

> we haven't invited yet don't feel left out. I know why we haven't invited

> you. After reading all your posts I figured it out. Your a nut case.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:03:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

>Oh if your gonna call me philly the dilly I'm gonna call you fatty

>Patty.

You really are immature, aren't you?

>I meant so you could distiquish my response from Gerry's easier not so

>you

>could literally read the words easier. DUH!

>But sorry if that offended you fatty Patty.

You can't spell for shit either..."distiquish"?

I have watched your volley with Mr. Nicosia and I believe..you have some

personal issues you might want to seek professional help with. You attack

as if Mr. Nicosia shot your dog or something. So he doesn't donate to

your little club...so what? I don't...do you hate me too?

You say Mr. Nicosia just wants to be known as "the man who saved

Kerouac's stuff" or some such hooha. That is moronic. I am sure Mr.

Nicosia is wise enough to realize people remember great things...and

rarely the men who brought them about.

Toilets are great...we love 'em...Who made 'em? Who cares? We just know

we need 'em.

Computers are neat...we use 'em. Who made 'em? Who cares? We just like

them.

See where I'm going with this? Worst case scenario, Mr. Nicosia has some

fiendish plot to make himself look cool by putting Kerouac's archives in

a museum or university. Ok...so what? The result is they are in a museum

or university for the world to look at. What the hell could he possibly

gain? He doesn't own them so he would make nothing off the sale.

Basically I'm saying..Your rantings are getting tedious as you skirt the

issues and just make idiot tirades about what a "mean man" Mr. Nicosia

is. I don't care if he is or isn't. I will never meet the man. I love his

novel "Memory Babe" and I admire that he is trying to get Kerouac's stuff

in an accessible place for all.

I think I can speak for most people here in saying we don't care about

your personal issues with Mr. Nicosia. This is not the

'Phil-Chaput-doesn't-like-Mr. Nicosia-L'

My two cents worth-

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:00:51 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ilkka Kuosmanen <ik56385@UTA.FI>

Subject: the mysterious Corso

Dear all,

I am new here and have been following the interesting discussions

on this list concerning the Beats for a while now. But whatever happened

to Corso?! I am currently working on a paper on Corso's poetry, and since

I know that there are many 'experts' here, I would like to ask you a

question concerning his poetry. In the poem called "Clown" he has the

following line:

"And for God I am ready with a mouthful of penguins."

Does anyone know or have any idea as to the meaning of the word

"penguins"? I know that he uses the same expression in at least a

couple of other poems as well, so I'm guessing that it's more than just a

whimsical surrealistic image. Perhaps drug lingo? Also, if anyone knows

any academic work that has previously been done on Corso, I'm all ears.

Ilkka

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:30:08 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>

Subject: Kicks, Joy, Darkness

On Mon, 12 May 1997 13:32:16 -0700,

Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Thoughts on the standout tracks (in my opinion at least):

>

>Richard Lewis' American Trinity of Love: This was the biggest

>surprise...Lewis abandons his neurotic Jewish comedian shtick and shows

>actual talent impersonating Kerouac.

Is that the intention - to impersonate JK, that is? It sure sounds a lot

like Kerouac's voice does on the box set....

>Juliana Hatfield's Silly Goofball Pomes: I can't believe some people are

>down on this one...she gives a fresh, whimsical reading, which is what

>Jack probably intended. It's a refreshing departure from the usual

>morose feel of some of Jack's other pomes.

I'm with you there, Adrien. It's the one piece that makes you smile rather

than snigger.

>John Cale's The Moon: One of the very best, perfectly interpreted.

Beautiful stuff, but you would expect nothing less from Cale...

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Eric Andersen's contribution, the 10th

Chorus of Broklyn Bridge Blues. For me that was a great mood piece - made

me want to buy that bridge. Anybody selling?

Perhaps my liking is coloured by my general fandom of Andersen. Check him

out - he is a legendary songwriter in his own right, although his career

was sidetracked by his propensity for drinking, hiding out in Norway, and

his record company's amazing incompetence - they once lost all the master

tapes for one of his albums....!

Regards,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:37:54 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: AC46 <ac46@LEICESTER.AC.UK>

Subject: The horror! The horror!

I can't believe that I'm reading things about a Prankster reunion. Why

can monumental experiments like that taken by Kesey and the "Neon

Revolution" not just be left to history.

I was nowhere near to being born in the sixties, but the Beats and

"hippies" are my heroes. When I see them revamped and updated it makes

me lose some of the love that I had for them in the first place. A year

ago I was given tickets to go see Dylan. Since that day I cannot listen

to Dylan without partly seeing the old, haggard, out of tune man that I

saw at the concert. That is not to say that I no longer love Dylan's

work, but I am just dissapointed by his reluctance to move with the

times. In the last few years we have seen Woodstock 2, which in true

nineties style went off with a wimper, the return of the beatles, and

now Kesey and co. are back, no doubt with Day-Glo paint all over their

zimmer frames and taking the bus to the post office every tuesday to

collect their pensions.

I am not questioning the validity of these aspects of sixties culture, I

am merely expressing my dissappointment at the Pranksters for doing it

all again in the nineties. Maybe there is not enough in our generation

which can be held as representative of the counteculture, but I for one

would rather see an unknown group of 20 yr olds who were making valid

nineties statements, than make a pilgrimage to see the Pranksters who

belonged to a very specific and real "moment" in American history.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:53:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

On Tue, 13 May 1997 13:37:54 +0100, AC46 wrote:

>A year ago I was given tickets to go see Dylan. Since

>that day I cannot listen to Dylan without partly seeing

>the old, haggard, out of tune man that I saw at the concert.

>That is not to say that I no longer love Dylan's work, but I

>am just dissapointed by his reluctance to move with the

>times.

Please explain your dissapointment with "his reluctance to

move with the times." When has Dylan ever moved with

the times? Are you looking for techno-Dylan? Dylan has

been doing what he's been doing for 37 years, he's perfectly

happy with what he's doing, so are his long-term fans. People

seem to forget the enormous impact this man has had on

rock-n-roll and its culture. Dylan changes more than you

give him credit for, to quote Bob, "do you think he's just an

errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires?" If you're

looking for crystal clear, perfect Dylan, you'll never find it.

Part of what makes him who he is (or all of us for that matter),

are his flaws, imperfections, etc.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:24:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: New JK books for Fall

Gerry and all:

I checked the copyright law properly this time before posting. Please ignore

unless you're really interested as it gets complicated.

>From 1909 onwards, copyright was provided for 28 years from date of

publication. At the end of 28 years you could renew for another 47 years,

making 75 in all. If you failed to renew, 28 was all you got. HOWEVER, in

1992 the renewal aspect was significantly changed, and renewal was granted

AUTOMATICALLY to all books published after January 1, 1964. Now nearly all

the dates you listed in this post fall just before that date, bt you don't

list all the dates, so it's possible some of the works may still be

protected. Anything published after 1978 of falls under the new Death+50

rule (though it may well become Death+70 in the next few years).

As for your comment about can you sell books not yet assembled to a

publisher, of course that's perfectly possible if both sides are willing to

take the risk and there's enough money put up front by the publisher. It's a

bit like the infamous 'player to be named later' trade.

Best

Nick W-W

>

> All I had heard was that Sampas made a 6 book deal for unpublished

>Kerouac with Viking Penguin in 1993, just weeks before MEMORY BABE got

>(coincidentally?) kicked out of Viking Penguin. This included the two

>volumes of letters, SOME OF THE DHARMA, BOOK OF BLUES, WAKE UP, and one

>other. I don't see how Sampas could sell them "all the unpublished Kerouac"

>since there are literally hundreds of notebooks filled with writing that was

>never published (many of them breast pocket notebooks), and future books

>will have to be carved out of them by an astute editor. Can he sell books

>that have not yet even been assembled???

> OKAY, here's the report from Thomson & Thomson, considered the

>foremost copyright research authority in the business. This particular

>report was prepared for Jan's copyright lawyer Herbert Jacoby by Timothy J.

>Herbert.

> It lists the following books as without copyright renewal. All of

>Kerouac's books fell under the old system, which meant the copyright had to

>be renewed after 28 years from date of publication, with a one year grace

>period. Since all of the books below are past that one year grace period,

>they are, to the best of my knowledge, in public domain:

> THE AMERICANS (only the text by Kerouac, not the photographs, of

course)

> BIG SUR

> BOOK OF DREAMS (only the text published by City Lights in 1961; note

>the original manuscript was much larger than what was published by City

>Lights, and so much of the original text is still unpublished and belongs to

>John Sampas.)

> EXCERPTS FROM VISIONS OF CODY (the New Directions special edition,

>published in 1960) (about 1/3 of the final text, I believe)

> MAGGIE CASSIDY

> PULL MY DAISY (only Jack's ad-libbed text by Grove Press, published

>in 1961; the song was renewed by Amram et al. in 1988.)

> SCRIPTURE OF THE GOLDEN ETERNITY

> TRISTESSA

> OLD ANGEL MIDNIGHT (the two excerpts published in BIG TABLE in 1959

>and in EVERGREEN REVIEW in 1964.)

> Well, you don't believe Sterling Lord is responsible? Jan signed an

>agreement with the Sampases in 1986 (so that they would finally pay her the

>royalty income she was due). That agreement confirmed that Stella and Jan

>should split ownership of the copyright renewals, and it made Stella's

>agent, Sterling Lord, Jan's agent too--for the rest of her life! It also

>said that Lord would be "both parties' representative of said renewals."

> I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know who was responsible. Mr. Lord?

>Mr. Sampas? Mr. Sampas's lawyer? There may be a malpractice suit here

>worth millions to someone, but it requires investigation.

> For the time being, I'm out of the loop, since Mr. Lash has got me

>tied up in a challenge to my executorship in the appellate court of Santa

>Fe, New Mexico.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:55:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970512134717.18000A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

ahh i must admit this little thread has made me feel quite young here, not

being able to remember those glorious 60s, having to read cuckoo's nest in

high school...hm. so before folx go off the deep end about kesey and his

work, just let me say that's not what this post is about, never liked his

work, maybe someday i will but i doubt it...

anyways, here i agree with adrien, this whole pranksters thing a pathetic

attempt...as well as the Futher Festival (with the some Greatful Dead

offshoots, etc), and the fact that good ole Yasgur's farm is going to be a

theme park by the turn of the century (this is no joke, folks). a good time

for rememberances if you're of that age group i suppose, but i can't stand

seeing ppl my age (22) standing there hippie'd to the gills going 'aw man i

was born 30 yrs late. you got that joint, man?'

Derek said:

> who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

>international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

>other...

i did it myself last summer, albeit not in a harvester, but with a bunch of

us driving from here (madison, wi) to san francisco, august last year...far

from sober, amazing...frisbee at three in the morning some iowa wayside i

was convinced the thing was a large, glowing, hovering nabisco nilla wafer,

and refused to get back in the car, instead staring at the headlites for a

minute while my friends were determined and laughably failing to get up on

the roof of a pavilion...or the red redness of utah mountains, sudden

flatness of salt...yeah long acid roadtrips may have been groundbreaking 30

years ago, but i've got friends who do them every year now, for the whole

summer, and no they're not following phish or the undead dead. we know what

DID happen but it's irrelevant to us because we concentrate on what CAN

happen. sick of cultural recycling...Try flying from Chicago to Prague and

Prague to Chicago on ecstasy there's something new...(well, kinda)

There is too much new going on to be stuck in the old. like it or not,

future is where we're headed. the ideas and concepts laid down by KK and

crew, AG, Jk, even my dear WSB need to be taken and listened to and

reapplied. very few things are timeless. ideas that affect society hardly

are, seeing that society is a fast changing monster. most ppl living

entirely (remember that word) by philosophies and ways laid down 30 yrs ago

are clueless and closed to so many things, IMHO.

I latched onto burroughs real quick because he seemed future-oriented; a

place i wanted to go, and yet need some sort of intro to. to paraphrase:

'the future of writing is in space, not time'. i liked that. that got to

me. with the exception of some of AG's poems, i could give fuck-all for

most of the other beats...Jk always came across as some guy who had a few

good roadtrips and times and then drank the very long night away at his

catholic mother's house in good ole safe Mass. Cassady riding the magic

carpet that was Ag's infatuation to some sort of glorified chauffer version

of fame. the first 3rd? more like the last 8th.heh...those who latched on

in the late 60s, 70s were worse to me, i didn't even bother to find out

much about them after reading their materials. But without all of them, so

many things would probably be left unsaid, and the grand story would be

incomplete. so i take those facts, which _are_ important to me, and apply

it to what i do. i've read enough WSB. now i need to apply these ideas to

what i do.

..etc etc. back to KK and his MPs. There are too many things going on now

that are rooted in what's going on now; taking our advancements and being

creative, outrageous, disruptive with them, interrupting a flow and putting

you, maybe just briefly, into a wild possible future. that's what charms

me: it's a possible future, not definite. when you're doing something

past-based, there is only one possible course of action, one that follows

the path of those events already taken. altho i admit ther'll probably be

much spontinaeity involved with KK and the MPs, but it will be based on a

same philosophy. For those who were around back then, it'll be a wonderful

one, but based on sentimentality, not new ideas, not any groundbreaking.

and to say well it _was_ groundbreaking back in the day; yeah, so was

hooking up a horse to a buggy.

I admit to a shortage of things as of late. Raves used to be an outing of

choice: 100s or 1000s of ppl in some huge secret location, dancing to

future.music, taking care of each other, having surreal, induced

conversations. It's a younger crowd now, concerned mainly with the drugs

and the clothes, and being 'underground'. there are huge similarities in

fundamental philosophies of rave and hippie culture, but the approach is

very different. but now, all of it seems corrupted.

for those of you wanting to see/feel something new, with similar outlook,

feeling to it: 'A Little Furthur' memorial day weekend, and 'Even Furthur'

july 18-21, electric campout festivals, location usually an undisclosed

campgrounds somewhere in Wisconsin. this event has been going on for 3 yrs

now, and gets better every year. and they even use a picture of the

Pranksters bus on the flyer. i get an indescribeable kick going to these

things, like the universe just all clicks together for a few days, and

everyone can be far from beat for a little while.

Pranksters? I'll stay home and read a book.

Obviously, i've been meandering here. Apologies, and no offense...

-zach

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:12:45 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

Zach Hoon wrote:

>

> ahh i must admit this little thread has made me feel quite young here, not

> being able to remember those glorious 60s, having to read cuckoo's nest in

> high school...hm. so before folx go off the deep end about kesey and his

> work, just let me say that's not what this post is about, never liked his

> work, maybe someday i will but i doubt it...

> anyways, here i agree with adrien, this whole pranksters thing a pathetic

> attempt...as well as the Futher Festival (with the some Greatful Dead

> offshoots, etc), and the fact that good ole Yasgur's farm is going to be a

> theme park by the turn of the century (this is no joke, folks). a good time

> for rememberances if you're of that age group i suppose, but i can't stand

> seeing ppl my age (22) standing there hippie'd to the gills going 'aw man i

> was born 30 yrs late. you got that joint, man?'

> Derek said:

> > who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

> >international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

> >other...

> i did it myself last summer, albeit not in a harvester, but with a bunch of

> us driving from here (madison, wi) to san francisco, august last year...far

> from sober, amazing...frisbee at three in the morning some iowa wayside i

> was convinced the thing was a large, glowing, hovering nabisco nilla wafer,

> and refused to get back in the car, instead staring at the headlites for a

> minute while my friends were determined and laughably failing to get up on

> the roof of a pavilion...or the red redness of utah mountains, sudden

> flatness of salt...yeah long acid roadtrips may have been groundbreaking 30

> years ago, but i've got friends who do them every year now, for the whole

> summer, and no they're not following phish or the undead dead. we know what

> DID happen but it's irrelevant to us because we concentrate on what CAN

> happen. sick of cultural recycling...Try flying from Chicago to Prague and

> Prague to Chicago on ecstasy there's something new...(well, kinda)

> There is too much new going on to be stuck in the old. like it or not,

> future is where we're headed. the ideas and concepts laid down by KK and

> crew, AG, Jk, even my dear WSB need to be taken and listened to and

> reapplied. very few things are timeless. ideas that affect society hardly

> are, seeing that society is a fast changing monster. most ppl living

> entirely (remember that word) by philosophies and ways laid down 30 yrs ago

> are clueless and closed to so many things, IMHO.

> I latched onto burroughs real quick because he seemed future-oriented; a

> place i wanted to go, and yet need some sort of intro to. to paraphrase:

> 'the future of writing is in space, not time'. i liked that. that got to

> me. with the exception of some of AG's poems, i could give fuck-all for

> most of the other beats...Jk always came across as some guy who had a few

> good roadtrips and times and then drank the very long night away at his

> catholic mother's house in good ole safe Mass. Cassady riding the magic

> carpet that was Ag's infatuation to some sort of glorified chauffer version

> of fame. the first 3rd? more like the last 8th.heh...those who latched on

> in the late 60s, 70s were worse to me, i didn't even bother to find out

> much about them after reading their materials. But without all of them, so

> many things would probably be left unsaid, and the grand story would be

> incomplete. so i take those facts, which _are_ important to me, and apply

> it to what i do. i've read enough WSB. now i need to apply these ideas to

> what i do.

> ..etc etc. back to KK and his MPs. There are too many things going on now

> that are rooted in what's going on now; taking our advancements and being

> creative, outrageous, disruptive with them, interrupting a flow and putting

> you, maybe just briefly, into a wild possible future. that's what charms

> me: it's a possible future, not definite. when you're doing something

> past-based, there is only one possible course of action, one that follows

> the path of those events already taken. altho i admit ther'll probably be

> much spontinaeity involved with KK and the MPs, but it will be based on a

> same philosophy. For those who were around back then, it'll be a wonderful

> one, but based on sentimentality, not new ideas, not any groundbreaking.

> and to say well it _was_ groundbreaking back in the day; yeah, so was

> hooking up a horse to a buggy.

> I admit to a shortage of things as of late. Raves used to be an outing of

> choice: 100s or 1000s of ppl in some huge secret location, dancing to

> future.music, taking care of each other, having surreal, induced

> conversations. It's a younger crowd now, concerned mainly with the drugs

> and the clothes, and being 'underground'. there are huge similarities in

> fundamental philosophies of rave and hippie culture, but the approach is

> very different. but now, all of it seems corrupted.

> for those of you wanting to see/feel something new, with similar outlook,

> feeling to it: 'A Little Furthur' memorial day weekend, and 'Even Furthur'

> july 18-21, electric campout festivals, location usually an undisclosed

> campgrounds somewhere in Wisconsin. this event has been going on for 3 yrs

> now, and gets better every year. and they even use a picture of the

> Pranksters bus on the flyer. i get an indescribeable kick going to these

> things, like the universe just all clicks together for a few days, and

> everyone can be far from beat for a little while.

> Pranksters? I'll stay home and read a book.

> Obviously, i've been meandering here. Apologies, and no offense...

>

> -zach

You make the Pranksters sound as dull as Ward and June Cleaver and

Dwight and Mamie Eisenhower. That's not half bad. Living in the past

is silly. a bit of remembrance now and then is ... perhaps sentimental

but what the fuck it is fun to be sentimental. i remember a group i

hung out with a few years ago that pledged to get together when we were

80 and drop acid for a big fling. it would be sentimental. it would be

new too. it ain't gonna happen i'm almost certain.

i think it is stupid to place Kesey or others on a pedestal just as it

is silly to place oneself there. pedestals fall, crash and burn.

i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

us..... :)

rambling on and on and blah blah blah from kansas plains.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:20:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Final estate details (for a while)

.... Your a nut case...you couldn't get anyone to buy it you finally sold it to

>U-Lowell for whatever terms you could get...Sorry, but if you

>want to listen to the taped interviews, you must have written permission

>from the subjects...

May 13, 1997

Phil, your reply is full of bull crap from one end to the other.

No one wanted the largest collection of Kerouac primary source

material in the world? 300 interviews with people who knew Kerouac? Are

you selling the Brooklyn Bridge too?

I chose to put all that material in Lowell because I thought that's

where the most Kerouac scholars would get to see it. When I put it there,

the university knew there were no individual permissions (there rarely are

with ANY archive), and the university promised to make the material

accessible to the public. They DID MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE until 1995, when John

Sampas came to complain to them.

Martha Mayo herself told me that. Later, she added "the woman from

Connecticut," but she refuses to name her. Why can't she name her if she

named John Sampas?

You deliberately quoted pieces of that article out of context. It

was Martha Mayo claiming that "if you want to listen to the taped

interviews, you must have written permission," not the reporter. Of course

she's claiming this, it's her excuse for letting Mr. Sampas have his way

about closing the collection.

When Michigan State University scholar Shari Krishnan complained

about being turned away from the MEMORY BABE collection, she received a

phone call from--guess who?--JOHN SAMPAS! (Not "the woman from

Connecticut.") Sampas told Ms. Krishnan that she had to go thru him to see

materials in the collection, and that there were certain materials he would

not allow her to see.

I'm a "nut"? I received my MASTER'S DEGREE WITH HIGHEST DISTINCTION

IN ENGLISH FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS, as a result of which I was

awarded a FOUR YEAR FELLOWSHIP IN ENGLISH TO UCLA, Later, I received the

DISTINGUISHED YOUNG WRITER AWARD FROM THE NATIONAL SOCIETY OF ARTS AND

LETTERS FOR MEMORY BABE. I've been a featured speaker at FIVE MAJOR KEROUAC

CONFERENCES IN THREE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

What exactly are your credentials for making all these

pronouncements about Kerouac scholarship? Having dinner every night with

John Sampas?

I'm through arguing with you about Kerouac scholarship. It's a

waste of my time. I want to speak with someone who's MY EQUAL.

I.e., please tell Mr. Sampas to send in the first-string team now.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:20:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMAIL.VITRO.COM>

Subject: Paul Blake, Jr.

Mr. Nicosia:

Couldn't Mr. Blake pick up a few bucks for himself by writing a book

about his relationship with his uncle Jack?

Ron Rodgers

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:03:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <337884ED.3034@midusa.net>

david rhaesa said:

>i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

>it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

>us..... :)

oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

not, don't bother).

So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

the next $%&^# Batman movie.

but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

-zach

i'm all for it.

-z

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:37:15 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

Zach Hoon wrote:

>

> david rhaesa said:

> >i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

> >it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

> >us..... :)

>

> oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

> what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

> kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

> hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

> just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

> back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

> war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

> gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

> the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

> abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

> cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

> Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

> a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

> a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

> pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

> iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

> bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

> our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

> that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

> not, don't bother).

> So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

> those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

> to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

> the next $%&^# Batman movie.

> but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

>

> -zach

> i'm all for it.

>

> -z

well after reading your post i listened to burroughs' words of advice

for young people about 33 times and re-read your post and thought about

it long and hard and decided that the sixties have been forgotten

somewhat if they're only about "movements", that the sixties had their

fair share of lunatics on both sides of the law-and-order game, but i

was just a young kid knee-high to a small donkey (burrough/jack ass)

when that was all going on and i guess i fall in the 'tweener'

generation that never amounted to much of anything for anyone to

anyplace at anytime. and so what!!! i think Ken Kesey and his geeser

pals should drive their bus to eternity and back if they want to and

that they say in big letters Never trust a Prankster so the younger

generations myself and the 'tweeners' included who get caught in the

hype of it all deserve exactly what we get. anytime you're dealing with

a prankster or someone with a movement attached to their name "get it in

writing!!!!" ....

time for my siesta as a casualty of the "tweener" generation, i am

prescribed to enjoy a siesta or two every day whether the magic bus is

flying by airplane, train or flatbad pickup truck with Vegas plates.

the Hall of Fame of the "tweener" generation will include: ????????

help, fill in the blanks please please oh please .... off to sleep enjoy

y'alls work-a-day-work and roadtrips and all that jazz/jacuzzi junk.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:32:11 -0700

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "The horror of ken going furthur"@cruzio.com

Hey dude, and yous men and gals and grrrls, women folks, who else

is/ain't part of me/us, anyone not here now get with it anyone?

I think there is something going on with us that we can't put our

fingers quite on, or it comes out a litle garbled or something, fuck off

all of you others, not me's, and you is them there, or is it something

in ourselves that we are so uneasy about that we can't fan our fire's

exuberance without chasing someone out, out of the picture, get out a

here, you ain't nothin' but a shadow of the past or are you a nobody

nothing from now. Like directors of a play who are afraid that they have

to control everybody's actions on the stage? Hey folks see those clowns

hollering for attention? Please don't give them no never mind, they

ain't nothin but goofballs, look at me, look at me, don't follow therm,

follow me, me me me. Oh, that shit again. So what else is new?

When my weekend comes on Monday, I would like to go over your post in

depth and detail, for the moment I want to tell you that I like your

post a lot. Fresh and alive and good energy moving ahead. How can I feel

so good about it on the verge of 27, oops, 72! I know there are very

good reasons. Too busy at the moment to look into it. be late for work.

That alone could disqualify me then, not so much now.

Maybe it's because I too loved Madison. Spent more time sailing on lake

Mendota, and in the Rathskeller than in the classrooms, but those were

ok too. some of them. Here I go again giving my age away. Hey, that's

what it is. Age discrimination. Pure and simple. Everybody does it, kid.

That's why I am happy to have a part time very low paying job. Never

missed a day's work in five years at least. Why else would anyone

complain about a bunch of guys going on a fun trip, thinking they have

something to say , too? Are you objecting to anything they said on this

trip? Are you objecting because they are too proud of threir entry in

the parade over thirtry years ago, hell, for having started that parade

then? Love to hear the further, fun and future advancements. As Kesey

was singing in the Filmore of SF taking his bus to a final resting place

of honor in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame museum in Cleveland, "Hip Hip

Hurray, Hip Hip Hurray" to anyone who is doing a great trip, "Hip Hip

Hurray, to you too Zach. If you are in the Santa Cruz area, I might know

of a good rave. I guarantee you no one will ask you to move off the

stage because of your age, or costume, or local dialect, or temporary

fad.

Leon

Zach Hoon wrote:

>

> ahh i must admit this little thread has made me feel quite young here, not

> being able to remember those glorious 60s, having to read cuckoo's nest in

> high school...hm. so before folx go off the deep end about kesey and his

> work, just let me say that's not what this post is about, never liked his

> work, maybe someday i will but i doubt it...

> anyways, here i agree with adrien, this whole pranksters thing a pathetic

> attempt...as well as the Futher Festival (with the some Greatful Dead

> offshoots, etc), and the fact that good ole Yasgur's farm is going to be a

> theme park by the turn of the century (this is no joke, folks). a good time

> for rememberances if you're of that age group i suppose, but i can't stand

> seeing ppl my age (22) standing there hippie'd to the gills going 'aw man i

> was born 30 yrs late. you got that joint, man?'

> Derek said:

> > who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

> >international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

> >other...

> i did it myself last summer, albeit not in a harvester, but with a bunch of

> us driving from here (madison, wi) to san francisco, august last year...far

> from sober, amazing...frisbee at three in the morning some iowa wayside i

> was convinced the thing was a large, glowing, hovering nabisco nilla wafer,

> and refused to get back in the car, instead staring at the headlites for a

> minute while my friends were determined and laughably failing to get up on

> the roof of a pavilion...or the red redness of utah mountains, sudden

> flatness of salt...yeah long acid roadtrips may have been groundbreaking 30

> years ago, but i've got friends who do them every year now, for the whole

> summer, and no they're not following phish or the undead dead. we know what

> DID happen but it's irrelevant to us because we concentrate on what CAN

> happen. sick of cultural recycling...Try flying from Chicago to Prague and

> Prague to Chicago on ecstasy there's something new...(well, kinda)

> There is too much new going on to be stuck in the old. like it or not,

> future is where we're headed. the ideas and concepts laid down by KK and

> crew, AG, Jk, even my dear WSB need to be taken and listened to and

> reapplied. very few things are timeless. ideas that affect society hardly

> are, seeing that society is a fast changing monster. most ppl living

> entirely (remember that word) by philosophies and ways laid down 30 yrs ago

> are clueless and closed to so many things, IMHO.

> I latched onto burroughs real quick because he seemed future-oriented; a

> place i wanted to go, and yet need some sort of intro to. to paraphrase:

> 'the future of writing is in space, not time'. i liked that. that got to

> me. with the exception of some of AG's poems, i could give fuck-all for

> most of the other beats...Jk always came across as some guy who had a few

> good roadtrips and times and then drank the very long night away at his

> catholic mother's house in good ole safe Mass. Cassady riding the magic

> carpet that was Ag's infatuation to some sort of glorified chauffer version

> of fame. the first 3rd? more like the last 8th.heh...those who latched on

> in the late 60s, 70s were worse to me, i didn't even bother to find out

> much about them after reading their materials. But without all of them, so

> many things would probably be left unsaid, and the grand story would be

> incomplete. so i take those facts, which _are_ important to me, and apply

> it to what i do. i've read enough WSB. now i need to apply these ideas to

> what i do.

> ..etc etc. back to KK and his MPs. There are too many things going on now

> that are rooted in what's going on now; taking our advancements and being

> creative, outrageous, disruptive with them, interrupting a flow and putting

> you, maybe just briefly, into a wild possible future. that's what charms

> me: it's a possible future, not definite. when you're doing something

> past-based, there is only one possible course of action, one that follows

> the path of those events already taken. altho i admit ther'll probably be

> much spontinaeity involved with KK and the MPs, but it will be based on a

> same philosophy. For those who were around back then, it'll be a wonderful

> one, but based on sentimentality, not new ideas, not any groundbreaking.

> and to say well it _was_ groundbreaking back in the day; yeah, so was

> hooking up a horse to a buggy.

> I admit to a shortage of things as of late. Raves used to be an outing of

> choice: 100s or 1000s of ppl in some huge secret location, dancing to

> future.music, taking care of each other, having surreal, induced

> conversations. It's a younger crowd now, concerned mainly with the drugs

> and the clothes, and being 'underground'. there are huge similarities in

> fundamental philosophies of rave and hippie culture, but the approach is

> very different. but now, all of it seems corrupted.

> for those of you wanting to see/feel something new, with similar outlook,

> feeling to it: 'A Little Furthur' memorial day weekend, and 'Even Furthur'

> july 18-21, electric campout festivals, location usually an undisclosed

> campgrounds somewhere in Wisconsin. this event has been going on for 3 yrs

> now, and gets better every year. and they even use a picture of the

> Pranksters bus on the flyer. i get an indescribeable kick going to these

> things, like the universe just all clicks together for a few days, and

> everyone can be far from beat for a little while.

> Pranksters? I'll stay home and read a book.

> Obviously, i've been meandering here. Apologies, and no offense...

>

> -zach

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:44:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Gibbons, Jeffrey x85139e1" <x85139@EXMAIL.USMA.ARMY.MIL>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

Zach,

Just wondering if you thought that the only reason to have a war is so

protestors can picket. Granted our intentions in the Gulf War were

based mainly for economic security. However, I think it's naive to

think that Saddam was going to simply invade Kuwait and that would end

it. His intentions were certainly larger than just the port of Kuwait.

He tested the U.S. (and its coalition) to see if we had the guts to

attack, and he failed the test. Sometimes there are wars (if you can

call the battles in 1991 a war) that are necessary. Sorry to make this

statement on the "Beat" list, I will try to keep future postings to

strictly Beat related topics.

Jeff

>----------

>From: Zach Hoon[SMTP:junky@BURROUGHS.NET]

>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 11:03 AM

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

>Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

>

>david rhaesa said:

>>i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

>>it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

>>us..... :)

>

>oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

>what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

>kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

>hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

>just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

>back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

>war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

>gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

>the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

>abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

>cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

>Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

>a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

>a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

>pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

>iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

>bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

>our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

>that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

>not, don't bother).

>So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

>those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

>to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

>the next $%&^# Batman movie.

>but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

>

>-zach

>i'm all for it.

>

>-z

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:47:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Kicks, Joy, Darkness AND A RIP-OFF

In-Reply-To: <9704128634.AA863460932@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

12May97 Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US> wrote

>I do like the Johhny Depp reading, although I hate to admit it (don't ask me

>why, I just don't like him).

Have to point out that the royalties due Jan Kerouac from this Johnny Depp

reading were never paid to her. Producers of the show state that Jan gave

permission for the material used by Depp. This is not true. She never gave

permission for the material to be used. I have asked to see documentation

regarding Jan giving permission and have not received a reply. Since

permission from Jan doesn't exist they would have to come up with

permission from John Sampas and they will not do this.

This is a case of Jahn Sampas picking up $50,000.00 from Depp for a Jack

Kerouac coat and giving him permission to use the material and not pay

royalties.

It's my understanding that the Sampas Estate would also have recieved

royalties, but since they received the $50,000.00 gave permission to use

the material royalty free.

Could the TV Production afford the fee? Of course they could. It was simply

another case of the estate making sure Jan Keroauc did not get what was

legally coming to her.

Jahn Sampas made out. Jan Keroauc got shafted--again.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:49:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Gibbons, Jeffrey x85139e1" <x85139@EXMAIL.USMA.ARMY.MIL>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

I should have added to my last post, drive on Ken Kesey, Bob Dylan,

Furthur Festival, Bob Weir and Ratdog, Mickey Hart and his Mystery

Box...etc. etc.

>----------

>From: Zach Hoon[SMTP:junky@BURROUGHS.NET]

>Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 11:03 AM

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

>Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

>

>david rhaesa said:

>>i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

>>it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

>>us..... :)

>

>oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

>what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

>kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

>hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

>just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

>back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

>war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

>gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

>the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

>abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

>cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

>Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

>a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

>a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

>pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

>iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

>bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

>our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

>that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

>not, don't bother).

>So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

>those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

>to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

>the next $%&^# Batman movie.

>but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

>

>-zach

>i'm all for it.

>

>-z

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:53:24 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: no more to say & nothing to weep for

i mentioned earlier last week that there would

be a documentary in the uk on sunday night / monday

morning...well there was and it was titled

No More To Say And Nothing To Weep For

i'm guessing that its the same television programme

that was shown a little earlier in the states.

i watched it all.

obviously put together after his death, i was a little

bemused by the fact they didn't once mention neil cassady

or william burroughs! i'm aware he led an amazingly

fulfilled life, more than can be crammed into a

one hour documentary, but nc & wsb were only shown

on photographs!

also who was the guy who said ginsberg was a little

naive about politics? what happened during that interview?

the interviewer really took the piss out of ginsberg to belittle

him infront of that firing squad.

anyone else see this documentary have any thoughts

on this?

also, as an aside, apart from an allen ginsberg interview

i've nothing regarding beat gen on video so that was the

first time i'd seen the kerouac / steve allen show. man,

i wished i'd have heard him read road all the way thru...

joe,

newcastle united kingdom

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:51:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: MAA11719 on camphor (hop 0), Tue, 13 May 1997 12:51:36 -0400 (EDT)

From: Randi Jaclyn Friedman <rfiedma@GROVE.UFL.EDU>

Subject: Re: subscribe me

Comments: To: SlugBug747@AOL.COM

In-Reply-To: <970427001803_-831476971@emout02.mail.aol.com>

PLease take me off the list. rfiedma@grove.ufl.edu

On Sun, 27 Apr 1997 SlugBug747@AOL.COM wrote:

> Hey can you subscribe me please!

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:15:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Fatty??

FATTY?? Are you kidding me? I got a little fast on the delete key, but I

think someone called someone else a fatty on here. Having a great time

reading the Kerouac Estate Debate..keep it coming..but fatty? We'll take

that up at recess.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:18:59 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Fatty??

Ron Guest wrote:

>

> FATTY?? Are you kidding me? I got a little fast on the delete key, but I

> think someone called someone else a fatty on here. Having a great time

> reading the Kerouac Estate Debate..keep it coming..but fatty? We'll take

> that up at recess.

expecting "pants-on-fire" any minute now ...

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:24:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: A Question for G. Nicosia/not Estate related!!

In-Reply-To: <970510213306_811267926@emout15.mail.aol.com>

>In a message dated 97-05-10 19:47:58 EDT, you write:

>

><< You might ask Jeffrey Weinberg if book

> misprints are as valuable as those in stamps and coins. >>

>

>In the case of the Memory Babe misprint, there is no extra worth attached to

>such a copy...But you should send the copy to Gerry and ask him to sign it

>for you anyway.

>Just don't forget to add return postage....

>JW

>Water Row Books

JW,

Your post is interesting. There is no doubt in my mind that sending a book

to Gerry with return postage would be a safe move.

Back a few years ago, when I learned the value of a pre-publication edition

of Catch 22 that I have I mentioned to a publisher friend that I was going

to send it to Joseph Heller and ask him to sign it. He told me, "Don't do

it! You'll never see the book again."

I couldn't imagine that happening. I have no information about Heller being

that kind of person, but didn't want to take the chance. What do you think?

Is it risky?

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:30:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: Re: The hilarity of ken going to war

In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=USGOV%l=EXMAIL10-970513164412Z-61132@exmail.usma.army.mil>

Jeff said:

>Just wondering if you thought that the only reason to have a war is so

>protestors can picket.

War is unreal to me. it's history. it's televised. it's not going on now

(at least involving our country, so it's not prominent on the news etc...)

I could put on the beads and flowers and say : 'there's no reason at all to

have a war', and ideally, that's what should be. but i'm not an idealistic

person; this isn't an idealistic world. although the US was probably right

for hoppin' into the gulf fray, there have been many more noble or

'necessary' causes of war, IMHO. Coalitions, alliances....bah...i'm not one

for politics. so the only reason for war is so the soldiers can fight so

the protesters can protest so the civilians can enjoy their freedom while

making money from making bullets and missles so the generals have jobs and

the president looks pretty and heroic...whatever. i'm indifferent. if it

comes to a choice i have to make, i'll go to the front and not the border.

don't ask me why cause i don't know. maybe all the tales of the opium dens

in Nam (nah just kiddin).

yepyep.

-zach

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:46:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: New JK books for Fall

At 08:24 AM 5/13/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Gerry and all:

>

>I checked the copyright law properly this time before posting. Please ignore

>unless you're really interested as it gets complicated.

>

>>From 1909 onwards, copyright was provided for 28 years from date of

>publication. At the end of 28 years you could renew for another 47 years,

>making 75 in all. If you failed to renew, 28 was all you got. HOWEVER, in

>1992 the renewal aspect was significantly changed, and renewal was granted

>AUTOMATICALLY to all books published after January 1, 1964. Now nearly all

>the dates you listed in this post fall just before that date, bt you don't

>list all the dates, so it's possible some of the works may still be

>protected. Anything published after 1978 of falls under the new Death+50

>rule (though it may well become Death+70 in the next few years).

>

>As for your comment about can you sell books not yet assembled to a

>publisher, of course that's perfectly possible if both sides are willing to

>take the risk and there's enough money put up front by the publisher. It's a

>bit like the infamous 'player to be named later' trade.

>

>Best

>

>Nick W-W

>

>One of the last things to be published will be the notebooks. if that

includes all or some is still up in the air. Regards to all, Paul...

>

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:46:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Overview, Part 2, Final Statement

To all the Patient Folks on the Beat-List:

I came on here hoping to initiate an honest dialogue on the Kerouac

Archive with John Sampas or one of his official representatives, such as Ann

Charters. What I got instead was Phil Chaput throwing 20 lies a day at me

to answer, to keep me away from any real discussion of what is being done,

and what should be done, with the thousands and thousands of papers Kerouac

carefully saved and filed away all his life.

I assume Mr. Chaput has been put up to this by Mr. Sampas himself.

Almost every one of the pieces of "evidence" he's thrown at me were standard

lines used in the past by Mr. Sampas or his lawyer Mr. Tobia. I had dealt

with them all years ago, and now, instead of being able to move forward on

this question, I was forced to rehash the past for the last two weeks.

I'm quitting this futile treadmill they've stuck me on. I think

I've exposed enough of Mr. Chaput's lies to throw doubt on the credibility

of all his future claims--and I'm sure there are going to be hundreds more

before he's done. Since the demands on my time right now are a lot more

intense than the demands on his, he can afford to continue with this game

indefinitely, and I cannot.

I should also add that I've just been asked to write my

autobiography for Gale Research's literary encyclopedia called CONTEMPORARY

AUTHORS--a 10,000 word piece that will take all of what little free time I

have left these days. For that reason alone, it will be tough checking my

Beat-List mail on a timely basis, and so I would ask those of you with

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS TO JUST EMAIL ME DIRECTLY at GNicosia@earthlink.net.

The best I can hope to do here is TO GIVE YOU THE OUTLINES OF WHAT I

AM FIGHTING FOR, AND WHY I AM FIGHTING SO HARD:

SInce all this began with a few comments of Mr. Anstee's, let me

return to his most forceful point: that people should hold back getting

involved, that people shouldn't take sides, that people should allow the

status quo to continue.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS: THERE IS NO STATUS QUO. MR. SAMPAS IS

CURRENTLY MAKING MOVE AFTER MOVE, WITH THE INTENTION OF CONTROLLING JACK

KEROUAC SCHOLARSHIP WELL BEYOND THE TIME OF HIS DEATH. He is currently

grooming nephew Jim Sampas to follow in his footsteps.

THERE IS NO STATUS QUO: at present Jan Kerouac's heir, exhusband

John Lash, having made a deal with John Sampas, is engaged in a

down-and-dirty court fight to get me thrown out as Jan Kerouac's literary

executor, even though she appointed me to do that work in her will. Mr.

Lash is being abetted (and doubtless encouraged) in this attack by Mr.

Sampas. As evidence, when Tom Staley, Humanities Research Center Director

at U. of Texas, Austin, sent an affidavit in my behalf to the probate court

in Albuquerque (where Lash is fighting me), SAMPAS HIMSELF CALLED THE

UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT STALEY'S INVOLVEMENT.

My legal bills in New Mexico exceed $60,000. Mr. Lash's bills are

comparable. Before the battle is over, each side will doubtless have spent

over $100,000. Why is Mr. Lash spending so much money to get rid of me as

Jan's literary executor?--an action that has drawn outcries from the world's

most important literary organization, PEN. I quote from the letter of

author Floyd Salas, President of PEN OAKLAND (PEN USA WEST): "To deny the

clear intention of Jan Kerouac's statements about her desire to save her

father's literary estate, and to change the clear instructions of her will,

which names Gerald Nicosia her literary executor, is to censor the voice of

this fine American writer, Jan Kerouac, even in her grave."

WHY IS JAN KEROUAC BEING "CENSORED EVEN IN HER GRAVE"? Because it

is necessary to do so if John Sampas is to continue his one-man control of

the whole field of Kerouac scholarship and, I may add, Kerouac sales..

Is this only what Mr. Anstee calls "paranoia"?

Let me cite some specific examples:

In 1992, Irish writer Elgie Gillespie wrote a long article on the

strange goings-on in the Kerouac Estate. It was scheduled to be published

in THE SAN FRANCISCO REVIEW OF BOOKS. Someone tipped off Mr. Sampas before

publication, and Sampas phoned SFROB publisher Don Paul, threatening a

lawsuit if the article was published. Don Paul immediately killed the

article and told Ms. Gillespie never to publish it anywhere.

When MEMORY BABE was kicked out of Viking/Penguin (only weeks after

Mr. Sampas had made his 6-book deal there for the publication of new Kerouac

texts), I took my biography to the University of California Press, which

immediately agreed to reprint it. A month later, U of C Press publisher Jim

Clark got a call from Mr. Sampas's agent, Jacob Hoye, instructing him that

Mr. Sampas would take legal action to stop MEMORY BABE from being

reprinted--claiming I needed to pay permissions fees all over again (not a

normal practice) and that Mr. Sampas did not intend to resell me those

permissions. Mr. Hoye made it clear to Mr. Clark that Mr. Sampas did not

want to see MEMORY BABE back in print.

When I let it be known I was about file a tort-action suit against

Mr. Sampas for "interference with contractual relations," I received a call

from Mr. Sampas himself, explaining to me that he was only doing his best to

protect Jack Kerouac, since my book was "filled with mistakes."

MISTAKES ACCORDING TO JOHN SAMPAS.

Clark republished MEMORY BABE. No suit was filed. But two years

later I received a letter from Mr. Sampas's agent Sterling Lord, reviving

essentially the same charges against MEMORY BABE--only this time saying I

had NEVER paid for the right to quote from MEXICO CITY BLUES. I told Mr.

Lord I had paid those permissions 15 years ago, and he demanded to see

proof. I told him the permissions had been filed with Grove Press 15 years

ago, and that Grove had been resold as a company 4 times since then--they no

longer had records going back that far. Again, there was no actual suit.

Mr. Sampas has contacted both the University of Texas and the

University of California's Bancroft Library, attempting to restrict access

to Kerouac materials on deposit there (i.e., scholars would need Sampas's

permission just to look at them). This is the same tactic Mr. Sampas used

successfully with my MEMORY BABE archive in Lowell. In Sampas's letters to

Tom Staley at the University of Texas, he specifically demanded information

about what materials Gerald Nicosia had seen. Staley refused to divulge

private library records, and BOTH CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS TOLD MR. SAMPAS TO

KEEP HIS HANDS OUT OF THEIR COLLECTIONS. Would that U Mass, Lowell, had

done the same.

Mr. Sampas had the "FINAL SAY" on what Kerouac letters, and what

parts of letters, Ann Charters was allowed to publish in the SELECTED

LETTERS volume from Viking/Penguin. This is by her own admission in her

interview with Dan Barth, which I excerpted in an earlier post.

There is no proof that Mr. Sampas controls the Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac! committee, but the two key members of that committee who gave Brad

Parker* the hardest time, Paul Marion and Roger Brunelle, are both close

associates of Mr. Sampas. (In an earlier post, I told how Brad Parker had

attempted to stage independent Kerouac events in Lowell, had been opposed by

the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! committee, and had complained to the National

Park Service about their interference.)

Mr. Sampas and his nephew Jim were honored guests at the New York

University Kerouac Conference in 1995. They sat behind the same desk with

conference organizer Helen Kelly. Ms. Kelly repeatedly refused to invite

Jan and me to participate in that conference--though both of us had spoken

for years with a unique voice about Jack Kerouac. Instead, we were replaced

with the likes of Andy Clausen, a hod-carrier poet from Oakland (any of you

ever heard of Mr. Clausen as an expert on Jack Kerouac?). When Jan Kerouac

and I showed up at the conference anyway, and paid $120 apiece to get in, we

were almost immediately dragged out by police. Later, one of the conference

organizers told me confidentially: "You know, we had to please Mr. Sampas,

or he wouldn't have given us permission to use Kerouac materials here. We

couldn't have put on this conference without his cooperation."

Recently, Mr. Sampas has hassled Steven Turner in England about both

the content and the format of his book, ANGELHEADED HIPSTER. There were

complaints to Turner from David Stanford, Sampas's editor at Viking, that

material about Jack's alcoholism and bisexuality should be removed from the

book. Sampas even objected to the use of a photo on the back jacket showing

JACK HOLDING A TEACUP, because, according to Turner, MR. SAMPAS FELT IT

SHOWED KEROUAC AS A DRINKER! According to Mr. Turner, Mr. Sampas has also

threatened legal action against him for what Sampas claims was his illegal

use of certain Kerouac materials.

When biographer Ellis Amburn sought John Sampas's help, he was given

a list of people NOT TO SPEAK TO. Brad Parker, my friend, was on the TABOO

LIST. Mr. Amburn never contacted me either, incidentally, though Kerouac

scholars contact me on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis.

FINALLY, NOT ONE KEROUAC SCHOLAR IN THE WORLD HAS HAD FREE ACCESS TO

THE ENTIRE JACK KEROUAC ARCHIVE, AND THE VERY FEW WHO HAVE SEEN EVEN

SIGNIFICANT PIECES OF IT HAVE BEEN HAND-PICKED BY MR. SAMPAS. (Contrast

this with Allen Ginsberg, for example, who allowed any serious scholar

complete access to his own archive, and did not demand proof of political

correctness first.)

NONE of the above activities by Mr. Sampas is ILLEGAL. But they

demonstrate an overweening effort to control Kerouac scholarship by an

individual who is not a scholar in any sense. They smack of censorship, and

they are hugely detrimental to the free flow and free development of ideas

about Jack Kerouac.

Mr. Anstee asserts that in opposing this control, I simply want to

control Kerouac scholarship myself. I ask Mr. Anstee to produce HIS

EVIDENCE OF THIS, comparable to the list I have just produced.

I have here produced plenty of evidence (and there is more I have

not mentioned) of Mr. Sampas's ongoing control.

A great American writer deserves better than this.

What can YOU DO ABOUT IT? YOU CAN RAISE YOUR VOICES ABOUT IT, AND

KEEP RAISING YOUR VOICES, and refuse to be silenced by Mr. Anstee's

dishonest call for a return to the status quo. WHAT status quo, Mr. Anstee?

The ground is being swept out from under my feet, and the feet of every

sincere Kerouac scholar, even as we speak. ALL OF YOU ON THE BEAT-LIST, AND

YOUR FRIENDS, CAN LET MR. SAMPAS KNOW THAT THIS KIND OF HEAVY-HANDED CONTROL

IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE.

Finally, let me dispel once for all this smokescreen Mr. Chaput has

put out that the Jack Kerouac Archive is already in the New York Public Library:

Jack Kerouac saved all his childhood and teenage writings, many of

them in the form of self-published comic books and newspapers. He also

saved early unpublished "juvenile" novels, such as THE SEA IS MY BROTHER and

AND THE HIPPOS WERE BOILED IN THEIR TANKS! The New York Public Library has

NONE OF THE YOUTHFUL, PRE-PUBLICATION WRITINGS OF JACK KEROUAC.

Jack Kerouac typed almost all his most important books (with the

exceptions of DR. SAX, VISIONS OF GERARD and VISIONS OF CODY) on long

scrolls of paper. ON THE ROAD was typed on 20-foot strips of Japanese art

paper taped end to end; the others were typed on teletype rolls.

THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY DOES NOT OWN A SINGLE ONE OF THESE

SCROLLS. NOR DOES IT OWN ANY OF THE RETYPED VERSIONS OF THESE BOOKS.

VISIONS OF GERARD, VISIONS OF CODY, and DR. SAX, undoubtedly three

of Kerouac's greatest books, were written mostly in pencil. THE NEW YORK

PUBLIC LIBRARY DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THE DRAFTS OF THOSE BOOKS EITHER.

Kerouac carefully filed all of his correspondence (including drafts

of his own letters) since the early 1940's--three decades of correspondence.

WHAT THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS OF THIS IS A FEW DOZEN XEROXED KEROUAC

LETTERS AND A FEW DOZEN ORIGINAL KEROUAC LETTERS TO MEMBERS OF THE SAMPAS

FAMILY.

Jack Kerouac kept an extensive file of personal photographs of his

family and his friends. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS NONE OF THESE PHOTOS.

Jack Kerouac made 100's of private tapes of himself and his friends

reading and singing. NONE OF THESE TAPES IS IN THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY.

Jack Kerouac had a personal library of hundreds of books, many of

them with marginal annotations that he made in them while reading. THE NEW

YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS NONE OF KEROUAC'S BOOKS.

How is it, then, that the New York Public Library already houses the

Jack Kerouac Archive?

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

In friendship to all of you, especially the guy in Fort Wayne who

offered to buy me a cold beer, I remain (as my Vietnam vet buddies say)

Yours for the duration, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:00:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Anybody know Andrew Burnett?

Is anybody here in touch with a Beat aficianado named

Andrew Burnett? Over a year ago he wrote up a virtual

tour of Neal Cassady-era Denver for me, which I put

up on my pages at http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Denver/Denver.html --

this week, to my great surprise, it got a very nice write-up

in the New Yorker (!) in the section where they review web

sites. Andrew would be thrilled -- but I don't have a current

email or snail-mail address for him!

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:05:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Paul Blake, Jr.

At 11:20 AM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote:

> Mr. Nicosia:

>

> Couldn't Mr. Blake pick up a few bucks for himself by writing a book

> about his relationship with his uncle Jack?

>

>

> Ron Rodgers

>

Dear Ron: May 13, 1997

Paul is a great storyteller like all the Kerouac's, and I recently

spent a whole day out in Sacramento with him, listening to him tell Kerouac

family stories to the BBC film crew. (I put some of them on audio tape

myself.) The trouble is, he's not a professional writer; and he's also

desperately trying to take care of his family of wife and 4 kids. He didn't

get to park his trailer on the neighbor's land for free. There are actually

a couple of empty houses on the land that he has to repair, fences to keep

up, and general caretaker duties he has to do to earn the right to keep his

family there rent-free.

Certainly Paul has enough material for a book, but he would need a

good writer or editor to work with him. If you've followed my recent posts,

you know I have more than enough family duties (sick mother, 2 year old

daughter) and work duties (Vietnam book, 2 Kerouac estate lawsuits,

autobiography to write for CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS) to use up the 24 hours in a

day. There's no way I could find time to go out to Sacramento and work with

him on that book.

It would also have to be somebody he could trust, because many of

his revelations will be told in court, if Jan Kerouac's lawsuit ever goes to

trial in St. Petersburg.

I think we all should help him get back on his feet, however, and

I'll suggest something on the Beat-List later today.

Thanks for your concern.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:45:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: the mysterious Corso

At 01:00 PM 5/13/97 +0300, you wrote:

>Dear all,

>

>I am new here and have been following the interesting discussions

>on this list concerning the Beats for a while now. But whatever happened

>to Corso?! I am currently working on a paper on Corso's poetry, and since

>I know that there are many 'experts' here, I would like to ask you a

>question concerning his poetry. In the poem called "Clown" he has the

>following line:

>

>"And for God I am ready with a mouthful of penguins."

>

>Does anyone know or have any idea as to the meaning of the word

>"penguins"? I know that he uses the same expression in at least a

>couple of other poems as well, so I'm guessing that it's more than just a

>whimsical surrealistic image. Perhaps drug lingo? Also, if anyone knows

>any academic work that has previously been done on Corso, I'm all ears.

>

>Ilkka

>

Dear IIkka, May 13, 1997

I don't think I'm telling tales out of school that Gregory (whom I

like to think of as a good friend) has had substance abuse problems for a

long time, both with heroin and alcohol. He was (and may still be) in a

methadone program. He has many regrets about having wasted portions of his

life and talent, and especially about "not being there for his kids" more.

He is on the surface a thorny, sarcastic, distrustful sort of guy; but deep

down he cares about a lot of things, including making this world a better

place, and certainly about "keeping poetry pure," as he's said to me more

than once.

There was a woman running around a couple of years ago doing

interviews for a biography of Corso, but I never heard any more from her (I

can't even remember her name!) and I never heard any more about her book either.

Gregory is far more a surrealist than a symbolist, so you can't

expect every image in his poem to correlate to some other thing or concept.

"Fried shoes"--another of his great lines--doesn't represent anything but

the mind having fun with itself. "A mouthful of penguins"--in my view--is

just another attempt to jar you out of your mundane mindset, make you see

the world differently--which is traditionally the great mission of poetry,

which the surrealists just updated a little. As far as the image recurring

in a few places, well, Gregory often enjoys quoting himself and will play

with favorite images like a kid looking at different facets of a favorite

marble.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:56:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: New JK books for Fall

.... in

>1992 the renewal aspect was significantly changed, and renewal was granted

>AUTOMATICALLY to all books published after January 1, 1964. Now nearly all

>the dates you listed in this post fall just before that date,

>Best

>

>Nick W-W

>

Dear Nick, May 13, 1997

The only one of the books I listed that was published after Jan. 1,

1964 was the second half of OLD ANGEL MIDNIGHT, but it was published not as

a book but as part of a magazine, EVERGREEN REVIEW. Does that still make it

automatically renewed? If so, it means that only half of OLD ANGEL MIDNIGHT

is in public domain.

Sorry if I misled anyone. It was unintentional. As you say,

copyright law is complicated--it's no wonder lawyers have to specialize in

it to be any good.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:00:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: SoRRY (Bill Gargan)

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 12 May 1997 22:34:28 -0500 from

<msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Matthew, just resubscribe from your new address. I deleted you.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:38:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Howl to the bard/exploding text report

=20

>i think you should consider posting the Howl to the Bard narrative on

>the Listserv. i imagine some people would enjoy it. it certainly would

>provide a change of pace from the Mother-of-All-Estate-Squabbles ....

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

Here ya go kids, lost it once on the =91puter thang. Swallowed the danged

thing up and wouldn=92t give it back. Ah well. Anyway, forgive any errors,

mistakes in reference, it is almost 4 a.m. here on the not so sunny

westcoast at present and I am left handed. Thanks again for playing with

me on Allen=92s behalf. It was a rare pleasure. Until we meet to sing and

dance, yours, s.a.

Howl To The Bard

Allen Ginsberg Tribute at Beyond Baroque

May 10, 1997

Venice, Ca.

I was late getting started as I had been going on in a stone rant earlier on

with neighborhood pal about poetry and how not to give oneself credit for

reinventing the wheel as it just is so roll with it. Was there to cop a

bone to carry to the reading with me as not to arrive empty headed out of

hand alas. Much traffic on the 10 West backed up in looksee museum of

common rubberneck activity due to multiple late in the day stress breakdown

party up get down out of control shutdown late in the day early in the

evening beautiful Saturday pile ups Santa Monica freeway eastbound. Wow!

Put marbles in mouth and teach me to talk. So anyway, I=92m doing my best=

to

get there carrying a head full of words and a heart full of Allen. When I

finally pulled up to the event, parking was very tough leading me to believe

that this was going to be a full blown shindig indeed. Finally squeezed

into a tiny space with my little Korean limo, grabbed copies of exploding

text and headed towards the light of Baroque.

30 or so were gathered on the lawn outside around a speaker monitor

listening to the goings on as I threaded thru the crowd of good folk

passing out the exploding text that many thought were programs and I say

sure why not and keep moving weaving bobbing boxing my way thru making my

way inside falling in deeply the tea party full steam. More folks are

standing in the lobby as there was no room inside the squeezing room only

main event. The room generally only holds a max of about 100 or so and at

least 250 plus were assembled attentive as the thing was alive with energy,

love and spirit. I came in on the Venice Beat segment of the show as John

Thomas was at the business of talking about Allen and Neal and about this

and that and working the crowd with much grace and appreciated wit and

somehow ended up in the bathroom sitting on the toilet or something when

Fred the director came over and grabbed me to take me to a seat next to

FranCeye Dean Smith former old lady of Bukowski mother of Marina

affectionately known in Buk lit as "old snaggle tooth". A truly fine and

sweet woman. I felt like I was there to see the man Frank Sinatra at

Madison Square Garden the way the room held itself. There was some recorded

stuff of Ginsberg and then next in the music WAS FRANK, Frank T. Rios old

time Venice beatster and east coast wise guy who talked disembodiment of

poets poetry and disembodied holy past in drugs and words and deed with

Corso the two somehow simpatico lit brothers of street smart scene and

hipster beat thing of period past and how he woke up the morning after Allen

had passed and said to himself that he like every other dumb fuck was

writing A GINSBERG POEM and this made him self conscious and naked in

thought so he called Black Ace publisher poet writer man Tony Scibella cross

town old pal still another component of Venice Beat old time wordsmith rat

pack and asked if he was doing the same like writing a poem for and about

Ginsberg and he says I don=92t write poems on dead body and this was=

something

for Frank to work with. So Frank talked a bit more and read holy inspired

poem for Ginsberg and then when finished burned it and placed in sacred

silver salad bowl shrine sitting on the sidelines. He took us there

peaceful like and we felt the grace and beauty and love. To complete the

Venice segment is Philomene Long raven haired beat angel wife of John

Thomas and creator director of fantastic film "Venice Beats: An Existential

Comedy" which I highly recommend and she reads words for Allen in a never

before voice which seemed to come from the other side that shot thru the

crowd and filled our centers with sweet cream of vision.

We were there, flying. Click your heels three times there is no place like

home. The Wichita Vortex is intoned. There are many Red Wheelbarrows as

well. Whitman and Blake left their footprints on the night and then left

the building as cosmic croon doggies of sing me to sleep inside the common

dream of human desire. =20

There goes Jupiter, there goes Mars and here comes Man =91O War! =20

Heard later that I had missed Keith Antar Mason of Hitite Empire whom

everyone said was great and he is.

More folks jumped up and spoke and read.

Black Sparrow high priestess of word Wanda Coleman is in the house following

jazzpoet husband Austin Strauss. She goes on in a searing rant and roll of

anger, hatred and brokenhearted ire and the crowd is silent as if standing

in the middle of the road in shocking glare of headlights or watching an

oncoming train with your foot caught in the switching track. She finishes

her prepared work for the eve and then breaks it all down in a slow

deliberate rap about how when she came into this room pissed but that the

spirit of the room reached out to her as Allen Ginsberg coming from the back

of the room arms open for her and he comes toward and she is still fucking

pissed but Allen wraps her in arms of true devotion and she is letting go

her anger now being consumed by Allen=92s embrace and she slowly and more

quietly dissolves into peace and now descends into silent love set free on

everyone there.

David Ulin talks about how some critic said that Allen was the poet most

willing to be mediocre and David says that this is a high compliment and I

agree that he, Allen, was human and willing to fail and if you can=92t fail

then what have you got? Shit sandwich disguised as wisdom.=20

Mike Lally talked about his actor ego and such and finally walked into short

world of how to be humble and began to say that Allen always said he was

reminiscent of Neal C. due to energy and attitude and Lally shot off, "Hey,

fuck you man, I=92m from New Jersey, I=92m Kerouac, not Cassady!" Large=

guilty

laughter at common attitude and not so secret shared dreams unfulfilled and

in the back of the room Neal tossed his hammer and talked endlessly about

Dr. Feelgood and his =9239 Chevy with no brakes coming down the hill while

tripping on gassy nebula undiscovered. Lally went on some more and finally

came to the point where after years of association with the man due to much

experience of living he had calmed down and come full circle to where

Ginsberg began to defer to Michael. He ended up talking about a fete or

something of Allen where folks went on and on about Allen this and that

until finally Allen gets up and basically calls it all fake in amazing

poetic language even accusing the gold as being "fake".

More audio of Allen. Pull My Daisy, the incredible eulogy to Neal about

nipples, bicep=92d arm and flesh which I was glad to hear as it is one of my

all time faves.

More people read. Speak.

Michael C. Ford, one of the only humans I could never tire of hearing speak

because of his glib gravely jazzy jazz speak like from the brass bell of

trumpet he talks about old days late 60=92s flash to Kenneth Rexroth via

Kenneth Patchen, someone=92s got a gig at San Diego State and Rexroth having

some trouble with the deal in terms of respect and so there are things to be

done to restore honor, respect. The students will mount an event maybe.

Rexroth says to Ford come to my place tonight for dinner got a surprise for

ya. Ford shows up and guess who=92s coming to dinner? Ginsberg,=

Ferlinghetti

and him. In retro he says that of course he didn=92t know what he had or=

who

was really with and as the eve goes on Allen isn=92t looking good or=

something

and someone maybe Michael C. as youth says what=92s the deal and Ginsberg=92=

s

response is, "New York!" That all his woes are New York, that whatever it

is is New York. The weather? New York! The economy? New York! New York,

New York, New York! Bad hair day? Fucking A! New York. . . " and the

event becomes New York and there is the feel of Times Square Huncke digging

all beatific winking at the parade.

This night strange for me. So much death in recent time. Huncke gone. Jan

K. dead of Jack attack at young age just like father before her. Clellon

Holmes and first beat Go!. . . gone. L.A. bigbeat meat poet Bukowksi

slipped away to make words for father in possible heaven. Local

friends/poetmakers gone: J.W. McCullough from Philly/Denver scene found dead

in flophouse digs of broken heart and mind said wandering funkytown center

of L.A. in sad drag looking for a fix for breaking heart. Allen J. Friedman

who whispered poem to me in deathbed meditation and left with his boots on

swinging to other side. Gone. Bob Flanagan Supermasochist leader of poetry

at Beyond Baroque who transcended pain of living thru pleasure of pain in

life. Gone. Kurt Cobain who mistook the hole in his stomach for the tears

in his head, also gone & Jerry Garcia who took the show with him. . . Gone.

And in mid-December my mother gone from overload of sad life liver shutdown

I missed her by minutes in life now she gone and this the day before

Mother=92s Day and I call you Mother from the pulpit of my life, my living

memorial to you I am. Now they are all here with me, now. With the folks

from the Beat List. The electric voice and spirit all here now. I have

fasted for this, waited for this, meditated and come here for this. . . soon

these voices will rise up with me and sing!

The night rolls on. 2, 2 =BD hours.=20

1st break.

I am in the lobby sitting on the stairs taking my head for a walk when

somebody taps me on the shoulders and sez, "Did you hear? Corso is dead!

Died two days ago standing in front of a train!" "What? Don=92t fuck with

me, I=92m not up for it." "No, I just heard. Corso=92s dead!" She sees=

that I

am truly shaken because somewhere in the back of my skull there lurks this

same info like the long shadow of a recent ghost some kinda fucking

doppleganger and so she leaves me dressed in the not so pretty news as I

despair on the stair. I search the crowd for verification/denial and all I

get is both. It is maddening; mad, not even funny rumor of death inside of

death and it is racing towards my stomach and vaulting towards my head past

my heart. Happy entrails to you, until we meet again. . . The break is

over. Liza Richardson of radio scene steps up to the stage takes the

microphone and declares Corso gone as well. Poet patron sacred soul Ron

Maxson who is related to Corso by marriage stands up in the audience to

debate/deny her story. It is too much. I don=92t think I can deal. I walk

outside to put some air back into my sails. Later Ron tells me that he had

heard the same rumors the past few days and in prep for this event called

back east to find out truth so to bring it with him here just in case and as

it happened, thank whatever fucking gods for that! He did.

Like Mark Twain: "The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

While outside they play a recording of Allen. I used to believe that really

all that Allen wanted to be was a rock star. After hearing this recording I

was convinced that he was a rock star. I don=92t know what the hell it was,

but it rocked, and rocked and rocked! Don=92t let anyone tell you any

different, Allen Ginserg was a rock star baby!

Now a woman gets up to speak of her first meeting with AG like many have and

will before the night=92s over. She talks about how she gave him a poem she

wrote and asked his opinion and he says it has womans blood in it and take

it to Waldman as she is better equipped to deal with such and she says hey

if it had cock in it would you dig it then? And Ginsberg sez yeah. She goes

on to read her piece which blooms like surreal picnic in glorious garden of

everything still possible. She knew him many years and the words ring with

long and short deep feel of it. She gives us her special place in the sun

and we are warmed with her safe fire of passion for poet and deeds done.

Then, an assassin takes the mike. She is dressed in sheep=92s clothing of

Naropa. She is a Greek bearing gifts of Allen this and Allen that. Her

assault is relentless. She cannot run out of ammunition. She drops bombs,

one after the other. She burns bridges. She is loaded with endless hip and

cool. She rapes our tiny village of good times. She chokes the audience

like a weak kitten slam dunking our sorry asses into her hellish toilet of

long winded self reflection as she goes on and on and on. . . 5, 10, 15, 20

minutes of nothing and nowhere and somehow off into the realm of NAMBLA

even and Allen this and that rat a tat tat tat tat and the crowd starts to

leave first one, then two, then they start for the door in small groups and

as they exit they ponder out loud like what in the fuck is she going on for

and why is she doing this to us? What the hell did we do to her to deserve

this? She has committed the numero uno sin of all sins as a

performer/speaker or anything pretending to entertain or inform: SHE IS

ENDLESSLY BORING!!!!! She murders any hope that she will soon be

finished. To be intentionally boring can be and is an art, but to bore

unintentionally should be punishable by immediate revocation of poetic

license never to be returned. To the credit of those of us left in

attendance, as much as she uses the good name of Allen Ginsberg, we know she

only speaks of herself and is certainly not paying any sort of tribute to

the man. Is she innocent? Is she guilty?

Finally she is finished. Stick a fucking fork in her and turn her sorry ass

over.

Forgive me father Ginsberg.

But wait! Could it be? Just when you thought it was safe to venture back

into tributeville up to the mike comes her accomplice, because in Hollywood,

everything deserves a lousy sequel. =20

So now this second hitman for the art mob, this wordy sonofabitch goes on

and on and on. He is reading an essay. Lucky him. Not so lucky us. Now

the people are really filing out. They are fanning themselves with doubt

and worry afraid for their own tender hides as they leave their wounded

comrades bruised and bleeding at yet the tonsils of this second assassin.

The crowd, once hopeful and 250 or 300 strong, within the span of 45 minutes

and two speakers, have been roasted down to about 100 of the truly strong of

spirit =91cause they know that there is magic yet to live. Poetry can be=

ugly

and nasty, a vile and evil fucker that can kill your spouse and steal your

mind, but the real spirit of poets and poetry will always prevail and before

ya know it, in comes Williams Wheelbarrow and there is Whitman=92s Brooklyn

Bridge which sings electric and a gentle rain begins to fall to douse the

tall flames lit by the two strangely innocent killers and there is Allen

Ginsberg with his arms once again around the night whispering in our ear:

"Are you my angel?" And he kisses the ignorant heads of the two bombers and

acquits them of any wrong doing, pats them on their stupid heads and sends

them on their way as he knows they will have places to go now that they have

finished with their Wagnerian warblings in the key of nothing flat and

nowhere sharp.

The 2nd break.

More folks leave satisfied that there is nothing any longer worth staying

for. The assassins satisfied that they have done their job leave as well

and Gregory Corso is still alive. =20

The room relaxes.

I tune up with just a little more weed. Got to relax. Give it up.

The break is over.

It is sad how people never learn that the real music often blows after the

doors shut and the saxophone man sits down to play his music to the angels

like a river to the sea where we all float in ecstasy. School=92s out and

school=92s in let the fat rhythm begin.

Round 3.

FranCeye gets up and lights the event with her love letter to Allen. She

says that once she said to Allen, "Thank you." And he said, "You=92re

welcome." And this was all that mattered. That you=92re welcome was some

sort of mantra, a chant that said it all and as she finished she left

quietly with, "Thank you Allen. You=92re welcome." And believe me, we were

cleansed and the room was free.

Earlier in the night someone had read Ginsberg=92s America poem and Laurel=

Ann

Bogen Detective Supremo freaked and almost left because that was what she

was going to read. Fred and I, mostly Fred, got down on our knees in mock

worship to keep her there and stay she did. We were lucky. A self

confessed split personality type, she was fueled with the anger of her

displacement and was a survivor of the holocaust of earlier boring rants by

our twin killers. She was prime. With arched eyebrow and magic manic grin,

she read that damned thing the way it should always be read: Mad baby!

Mad! She roared and the music of AG=92s language which broke new land speed

records and jailhouse rocks as flowers exploded in a frenzied quilt of color

at ground zero.=20

Then fellow Carma Bum Doug Knott read. Giggling goddess of spoken and

written word Ellyn Maybe did her thing and sang White Shroud. The Dharma

Lion stretched his legs across the room and relaxed in the empty seats. We

were about 3 =BD hours into it now and there were only about 50 devoted=

ones

left.

Exene Cervenkova asked me during the break if I minded going after her since

she was being recorded for some Internet thing and I pulled out my stuff

and said well I created mine on the Internet so maybe it was relevant but it

didn=92t really matter to me and she said well I was told that you had been

waiting a lot longer than me and I said do whatever you like Exene it will

be fine that whatever she did would be the right thing and she walked away

mumbling something like I=92m sure it will.

My name was called as I was sitting outside talking with John Thomas and

Laurel Ann. I shot up and walked in. Not so stoned but very high. "I come

to you as the Reverend representative of The Dynasty of Divine Love and

Tolerance." I started. "Bless the sacred holy noble truth. Welcome to

Temple Baroque!" A few shouted with me. My part in the revival had begun.

"Be with me now!" I intoned, "Be with me. . . " I hardly knew where I was

anymore. I was coming apart and reassembling myself as a cubist comedy in

full relief. I was hungry and scared and somehow sacred in the moment. I

announced that I was sick of writing eulogies for dead poets and that I

really wasn=92t up to it, so being on this beat list thing where we all=

talked

about Beats and about who was Beat what was Beat, beat, beat, beet and then

we eat it and Rinaldo walked in with Italy under his arm and took an empty

seat. I went on about how I took Ginsberg=92s piece "On Burroughs Work"

presented it to the list and 7 or 8 of us took turns altering it and blah,

blah, blah. . . . I pronounced and mispronounced the authors names. I took

a breath, looked at the paper as if it were something and I spoke, " On The

Work of Burroughs. . . the method must be purest meat of sharktalk spoor. .

." there was an energy, there was a movement. My voice didn=92t seem to be

my own, my body light and filled with all the thoughts and visions that had

come before. I couldn=92t believe how easy it was to sing. I was hitting

fastballs that were creeping past the plate from over the Atlantic as I

placed them one after the other in the outfield and over the fence. Some

danced on the foul line safe and I was gone and everyone was there and we

were dancing the words. I just kept speaking one word after the other not

really knowing what was coming next. I reached the part of "skin holy,

baseball holy, time holy. . ." and I felt my center shoot up into my throat

as the words became large and wet with the tears struggling to liberate

themselves from my throat. Allen wrapped his arms around me and I pulled

the humans in and together we shouted, "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!" I slipped the

page behind the others and suddenly I saw the words and knew I dropped a

page but being cut and paste I shouted "GODDAMMIT!! WHICH WAY DOES YOUR

BEARD POINT TONIGHT ALLEN? POETS HOLY:" Then skipped back and picked it up

previous, jumping back on the bus roaring thru tributetown with everyone

once again safely on board. We sang and drank skin holy, Canada holy, U.K.

holy, Kansas vortex and California holy, holy, holy, beat list members holy!

It is true, it was true; you could have heard the old proverbial pin drop in

timezone Saturday night. I finished quietly firmly and direct, ". . . I

hear what you say and I now write to the world to do it: rise up! Rise up!

And claim this world!. . . " and the few left got it, I got it, they got, we

all got it. Some shouted with me at the end, "Holy! Holy! Holy!" Then

once again, quietly I stated, "Don=92t hide the madness." as I ripped up=

the

paper with the words on it and dropped into Frank Rios=92 sacred silver=

salad

bowl and left the room. Lewis MacAdams was waiting to come on and turned to

me and said, "Nice words." Later I realized that I had forgotten the last

line, "A word to the wise guy." But I hadn=92t been myself really, I had=

been

taken over and highjacked by the vision and energy of all of those that came

to the party with me. I was pissed but cut and paste. . . I did it Sunday,

Mother=92s Day in memory of my gone Mother at weekly poetry hullabaloo up=

the

street at The Onyx Caf=E9 and it sang again and vibrated in all the right

places once again! Holy! Fucking Holy! It lived. It lives.

But hey, the night=92s not over, no indeedy. =20

Next was Exene Cervenkova who got up and said that Allen Ginsberg was the

greatest poet of the 20th Century and she was glad he was gay. She talked

about back in the heyday of quintessential punk rock days of X with John

Doe while living on Ave. 42 in Mt. Washington I believe it was that she

received a fax one day from AG and she didn=92t know how he got their number

but nonetheless, there was this fax and seems that Allen wanted her and John

to put it to music and maybe use it on an album or something. Well, I guess

that never happened, in fact, Exene says she lost the thing and hopes to

someday find it again. She and Ginsberg became buds. She talked about how

he deferred to her setting up his stage for his readings and asking if

everything was all right and then showing her poetry of his and asking if

that was all right and so on. Exene saying that the man was just being

humble in her opinion as he had done this thousands of times and who was

she? She closed with words for Allen and then got off.

Lewis MacAdams who wrote an incredible sendoff for Allen in The L.A. Weekly,

whose brilliant JK/Beat documentary will live forever, dressed in coat and

tie and fine brim looking a bit like a song and dance man straight out of

maybe St. Louis, came in somewhere about this time and told a story about

how Ginsberg wanted to make it with him and his old lady at this particular

time past maybe when he first met the big man can=92t recall the whole=

evening

is of course filtered thru experience and light haze of medicinal marijuana

which tugs at the old memory bone from time to time ya know, so anyway Lewis

is talking here and he says well hey Allen I=92m not into this scene so=

Lewis,

he goes and crawls into his sleeping bag while Allen and his woman I guess

are wrestling, going at it, Lewis watching and listening, panting and

groaning or what have you, doing it until finally I guess Allen reaches over

with one finger and touches Lewis gently on the forehead and Lewis spurts

immediately. Yowsa! Guess he=92s not into those scenes, huh? Lewis went

and talked some more and read leaving us well and happy.

Then something wonderful happened.

Exene had brought along Ronnie Blakely who sang in famous Altman flick

"Nashville". She told us of her love for Allen and how when once time past

Allen who so wanted to be with Dylan on the Rolling Thunder Review, that

after he and Orlovsky, their segment of the show had been cut, agreed to

stick with the show by shuttling luggage to and from the tour buses. It was

heartbreaking and enlightening to hear her tell it. I have rarely seen a

person speak with such real love and reverence. She said that they never

knew where they were going because for some reason it was all a secret, but

that she would stick her luggage out in the hallway late at night and early

in the morning, Allen and Peter would come by scooping up the luggage to be

placed on board the bus and on to destination unknown cities. She spoke

lovingly of relationship of many years and then asked if she could speak or

sing a song she had written for him. The group asked her to sing. I cannot

tell you how lucky we were to be there. She was our angel, the angel Allen

spoke of. Her voice was honey, she held Allen in her music quenched his

thirst and quelled his fears. She held our hearts captive with her song and

healed the wounded night. It rained love. This was the moment of pure

light that the sax man dreamed as he played his music to the stars. Hale

Bopp. She sang it for us all.

The night certainly could have ended there. But there was an open now.

First one guy went on and on with his hit on America poem called America

revisited. Ouch. He started reading when I realized that he had a stack of

paper. Ah well, what the fuck ya know. In the now kind and gentle spirit

of it all, the last dozen or so left, we listened. Then Nate (no last name)

got up and jammed on guitar punk like and screamed and sang a fantastic rant

for Allen. Another home run. Then lastly a guy who got up and said he was

a film director who had desperately been trying to do a thing on the beats

and said he wouldn=92t go on too long. . . guess what? He did.

>From begin to end: just about 4 =BD hours.=20

The six of us left all went out to drink and eat.

Holy, holy, holy. . .love holy! Allen Ginsberg. . . holy.

End of story.

xxxooo

S.A. Griffin

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:51:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9df8229a77@[206.190.9.125]>

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

> here i the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay

> lib? abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

> cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

> Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

> a march against that.

no protests, no movements -- the issue is communication. the word of the 90s

is feedback.

> So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

> those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

> to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

> the next $%&^# Batman movie.

Not _everyone_ in the 60s was a hippie protester. Don't you think there are

a lot of people driven into action right now? Maybe not picketing, no, but

there are many more important things to be doing right now.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:51:08 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

AC46 wrote:

>

> I can't believe that I'm reading things about a Prankster reunion

Well, of course, you don't have to, but then what did you expect on a

list principally devoted to old or dead writer?

I was given tickets to go see Dylan. Since that day I cannot listen

> to Dylan without partly seeing the old, haggard, out of tune man that I

> saw at the concert.

But if you had gone earlier he would have been young, haggard and out of

tune--still great

but I for one

> would rather see an unknown group of 20 yr olds who were making valid

> nineties statements, than make a pilgrimage to see the Pranksters who

> belonged to a very specific and real "moment" in American history.

No one's asking you not to check out the 20yr olds. Is this mutually

exclusive. Did Kesey need to get permission from another generational

zip code before making this trip, and if so who elected you? If you

aren't interested, don't bother with it. I assume you and Zach are the

lucky ones that will never grow old, never bore the kids with stories of

your glory days, you're going to keep that edge on your blade all the

way through. Good luck. You should tack this post up on your wall

and read it every decade or so--just to keep you honest.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:00:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

In-Reply-To: <AD25FD42EC@banana.le.ac.uk>

Hello,

It seems to from this post that the member AC46 is taking an "Age-ist"

view, though i dont wanna sound like some politically correct person or

anything.

I think if a bunch of elderly gents wanna act all wild and crazy and how

most people feel THE YOUNG ARE SPOSED TO ACT, then fuck yeah im all for

it. i mean, what, are you sposed to shut up when you reach a certain age

and quit racing around high or not or something?

As far as Dylan is concerned, most people it seems either like his voice

or not; sure, he's become a lil' less articulate (!) in singing but

that's certainly made up for by the feeling i get from his performance;

he should HAVE to adapt to the prevailing trends anymore than someone

should HAVE to flee from 'em.

respectfully,

Eric

P.S. regarding the Pranksters:

Do not go gentle into that good night

Dose, dose before they take away your right.

On Tue, 13 May 1997, AC46 wrote:

> I can't believe that I'm reading things about a Prankster reunion. Why

> can monumental experiments like that taken by Kesey and the "Neon

> Revolution" not just be left to history.

> I was nowhere near to being born in the sixties, but the Beats and

> "hippies" are my heroes. When I see them revamped and updated it makes

> me lose some of the love that I had for them in the first place. A year

> ago I was given tickets to go see Dylan. Since that day I cannot listen

> to Dylan without partly seeing the old, haggard, out of tune man that I

> saw at the concert. That is not to say that I no longer love Dylan's

> work, but I am just dissapointed by his reluctance to move with the

> times. In the last few years we have seen Woodstock 2, which in true

> nineties style went off with a wimper, the return of the beatles, and

> now Kesey and co. are back, no doubt with Day-Glo paint all over their

> zimmer frames and taking the bus to the post office every tuesday to

> collect their pensions.

> I am not questioning the validity of these aspects of sixties culture, I

> am merely expressing my dissappointment at the Pranksters for doing it

> all again in the nineties. Maybe there is not enough in our generation

> which can be held as representative of the counteculture, but I for one

> would rather see an unknown group of 20 yr olds who were making valid

> nineties statements, than make a pilgrimage to see the Pranksters who

> belonged to a very specific and real "moment" in American history.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:52:09 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Teardrops, photographed by Robert Frank.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970513125048.31530A-100000@camphor>

PRANKSTERS DON'T TEARS FLOWERS

NIGGHTIME

lontano, molti anni sono passati,

noi stiamo diventano cose,

fiori, flowers, le nostre cellule cerebrali,

our brain cells, diminished,

diminuiscono, praksters are own flowers,

la finestra di Robert Frank's photo, guarda,

look at,

grandma's doilies,

blur windows glass,

un'auto aspetta sul courtyard,

boys, go!, it's 15th august,

l'auto corre, the grass on both side of the highway,

go! Padua, Bologna, Florence, Rome, Naples,

Siracusa, Francofonte, Taormina, l'Etna smokin'

in the old times, furious dog chase barking

under olives branches

like thunder,

the ferrari runs as quick as a lightnin'

grandama calls rinaldo, look at the sirs!,

the top of the Volcano, qualche pietra raccolta,

Salvatore corre come un pazzo

lungo il side of the Volcano,

look at in the down there's the snow!,

great! IT'S summer,

noi stiamo diventando cose,

we're turnin' into things,

like grandam doilies

like xeroexes, like photos, like sound tracks of

Jimmi Hendrix, like everything,

keep me head

in my hands

fuzzy bats & owles,

near my house,

look at the teardrops,

smell the ancient room,

where black dressed woman

talked ancient stories

tonight my grandma

had planted me

as potato in the yard.

yr rinaldo

*the dumb*

*the beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:09:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: the mysterious Corso

In-Reply-To: <199705131845.LAA28915@italy.it.earthlink.net>

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> There was a woman running around a couple of years ago doing

> interviews for a biography of Corso, but I never heard any more from her (I

> can't even remember her name!) and I never heard any more about her book

either.

Yeah, what happened to her? Anyone know if the book ever came out? I had her

address around here somewhere, but now I can't find it, and i don't remember

the name.

m

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:30:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <v03007800af9ddac8b3e5@[206.190.9.125]>

greeting fellow travelers,

I'd like to say first to Zach that your post is very inneresting and

enjoyale reading.

i just want to address a few points that disturbed me, even if its a bit

off topic on my part. forgive me.

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

> flatness of salt...yeah long acid roadtrips may have been groundbreaking 30

> years ago, but i've got friends who do them every year now, for the whole

> summer, and no they're not following phish or the undead dead. we know what

> DID happen but it's irrelevant to us because we concentrate on what CAN

> happen. sick of cultural recycling...Try flying from Chicago to Prague and

> Prague to Chicago on ecstasy there's something new...(well, kinda)

Following phish is no more un-genuine than SPECIFICALLY not following

phish.

the past is not IRRELEVANT if you want to improve the present or future.

Zach, you wrote something about -- there's too much going on now to be

dwelling on stuff rooted in the past -- (excuse the possible

misinterpretation, but i fucked up this email editing job.)

Anything one does IS what's happening NOW. This particular Prankster

voyage is new because it is (or at the time it just occured) was the

present. To say that an event is somehow not "new" or "current" enough is

meaningless, assumes there is a definite predictable notion of what MUST

go on at any given moment in the "current" era.

If they, the pranksters, want to drive around make appearences like they

did before, why the hell not? You dont have to avoid something just

because something similar has occured. And if other people are amused by

it, why should it bother you?

from,

Eric

P.S. some of the most genuine and sincere funloving friends of mine say

the've had a great experience at Furthur Fests. it might be an attempt to

reHash old times but at the same time creates NEW times whether you did

or did not live at the time o' the ol' Times. heehee!

> There is too much new going on to be stuck in the old. like it or not,

> future is where we're headed. the ideas and concepts laid down by KK and

> crew, AG, Jk, even my dear WSB need to be taken and listened to and

> reapplied. very few things are timeless. ideas that affect society hardly

> are, seeing that society is a fast changing monster. most ppl living

> creative, outrageous, disruptive with them, interrupting a flow and putting

> you, maybe just briefly, into a wild possible future. that's what charms

> me: it's a possible future, not definite. when you're doing something

> past-based, there is only one possible course of action, one that follows

> the path of those events already taken. altho i admit ther'll probably be

> much spontinaeity involved with KK and the MPs, but it will be based on a

> same philosophy. For those who were around back then, it'll be a wonderful

> one, but based on sentimentality, not new ideas, not any groundbreaking.

> and to say well it _was_ groundbreaking back in the day; yeah, so was

> hooking up a horse to a buggy.

> I admit to a shortage of things as of late. Raves used to be an outing of

> choice: 100s or 1000s of ppl in some huge secret location, dancing to

> future.music, taking care of each other, having surreal, induced

> conversations. It's a younger crowd now, concerned mainly with the drugs

> and the clothes, and being 'underground'. there are huge similarities in

> fundamental philosophies of rave and hippie culture, but the approach is

> very different. but now, all of it seems corrupted.

> for those of you wanting to see/feel something new, with similar outlook,

> feeling to it: 'A Little Furthur' memorial day weekend, and 'Even Furthur'

> july 18-21, electric campout festivals, location usually an undisclosed

> campgrounds somewhere in Wisconsin. this event has been going on for 3 yrs

> now, and gets better every year. and they even use a picture of the

> Pranksters bus on the flyer. i get an indescribeable kick going to these

> things, like the universe just all clicks together for a few days, and

> everyone can be far from beat for a little while.

> Pranksters? I'll stay home and read a book.

> Obviously, i've been meandering here. Apologies, and no offense...

>

> -zach

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:16:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Chaput is Kaput!

Phil,

I knew I'd get your attention with my clever little rhyme. :^)

Phil, Nicosia has demolished your credibility regarding the Great Estate

Debate just like he said he would. Any further protest by you will only be

seen as whining and namecalling by the vast majority of the people on this

list. I'd suggest you spare yourself that embarrassment.

Now I'd like to suggest we turn our attention to doing something positive

with the situation. You mentioned before that you want to help with the

archives. If you are sincere about that offer, I have some suggestions to

make that I'll list at the end of this note. Everyone agrees it would be a

good thing to maintain the archives. I'd like to enlist your support in

finding a way to do that.

You know, Phil, I believe loyalty among friends is usually a good thing.

Sometimes, though, loyalty can be misplaced and one friend can wind up

playing the other friend to his detriment. I've got to wonder if that is

what John Sampas has done to you here. You've taken a lot of slings and

arrows for John and received nothing but humiliation and embarrassment for

your efforts.

You say you're your "own man", Phil. Then examine this situation with a

critical eye without the filter of friendship. Can you honestly say John

Sampas has served you well here? You tried defending an extreme position

with a very weak argument out of loyalty to a friend. Now it is time for you

to drop that role and take some action.

There's an old saying and our mother's pounded it into all of us... "Actions

Speak Louder Than Words". John Sampas has been telling everyone, including

you, he wants to protect the Kerouac Archives. But what have his actions

said to everyone?

If a person wants to protect something they do not sell it off piecemeal to

the highest bidder! That only insures the collection gets scattered all over

the world and the new owners get to make their own individual choices as to

what will happen to those items. Not much of a strategy for preservation, do

you think?

You can take an active part in solving this situation by telling John Sampas

he needs to negotiate a deal with some University or organization that will

do the work required to protect the Kerouac Archive forever! If you're

really a fan of Kerouac, and I believe you are, you should use every

opportunity you have to help direct John Sampas to do the right thing.

I have other ideas too.

1). Use your association with Sampas to determine what it is going to take

for him to actually sell the archives to one organization. It appears the $1

million that has been offered for the entire archive is not enough for John

Sampas. He's been sitting on a gold mine valued at $10+M and was not about

to let it go for a cool mil no matter how much noise Gerry Nicosia or Jan

Kerouac made.

2). Call me crazy but I bet there's a way to get the money John Sampas is

looking for to buy this collection. There have got to be many millionares

around the world who might be willing to contribute in some fashion to get

John Sampas his asking price. Kerouac influenced a lot of people, some of

whom influenced a lot of other people. Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Paul Simon,

The Beatles, The Doors, Johnny Depp and probably may other Hollywood types.

What is that line about "six degrees of separation"? I bet some of the

people just mentioned are known personally by some of the people on this

list, or maybe are a friend of a friend.

Think about it! A hundred rich people cobble together $10 million bucks,

there's some big ceremony held at NYPL or someplace, CNN and C-SPAN cover it

live and all these people get their name put on a plaque somewhere and John

Sampas gets a big fat check! Part of the deal is Paul Blake gets taken care

of in the royalties or some other way, everybody's legal fees gets paid up in

some fashion and everybody is happy! No more litigation, Kerouac's archives

are protected forever and the Sampas family is wealthy for the rest of their

lives. I've seen stranger things happen!

The point is, Phil, you and maybe some others are in a unique position to

jumpstart some sort of negoiated settlement. From what I can see Gerry

Nicosia is not going to go away and if he wins in Florida Sampas could wind

up with a big mess.

How about we all move forward and make something happen instead of calling

each other names?!?

Whaddya say?

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:30:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: the mysterious Corso

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 May 1997 13:00:51 +0300 from <ik56385@UTA.FI>

I think he means nuns. It's a joke--little surreal short shot. In

traditional English literature the penguin is sometimes a symbol for

Christ but I doubt Corso has this in mind.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:07:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

What troubles me about these posts is this...why is everyone concerned about

the archives when no one (by the indication of the NYPL) is utilizing what

is in there already?

Kerouac's personal effects (books, letters etc.) as priceless as they

are still belong to the inheritor. The fact is that Stella was married to

Jack. Though he may have said he wanted to divorce her he never did. That is

out of our hands. From what I can see every effort is being made to put out

there what is publishable. Even if John Sampas had no say about editing

letters, Ann Charters would still have to make them "selected" letters.As

long as the recepients and subjects are still living, that is the law.

The other thing that troubles me, though I have no qualms with Mr.

Nicosia, is his constant need to bolster his image by revealing his

credentials as a scholar. Why would he expect to be invited to LCK

activites? Dennis McNally was never invited to LCK and he holds a Doctorate!

Neither was Tom Clark! Though neither of their biographies are as "thick" a

book as Nicosia's, they are every bit as informative. They just didn't put

in as much sophmoric textual analysis of Jack's works. To be a scholar is to

be modest. One does not see Harold Bloom asserting his authority nor does

Perry Miller. Not even Ann Charters! To be specific...well forget it...I am

already setting myself up for a line of attack but if Gerry is a true

scholar he will know that I am right. I respect Memory babe for its research

and for Gerry's hard work in putting it together but it by no means is

definitive. It is a "critical" biography but it does not mean that the

criticisms are correct. They are the work of scholarship. Criticisms are

left up to debate. That is the nature of scholarship. That is why there are

about a dozen "definitive" biographies of Hemingway. No one has the last

word on a subject, especially when newer works are constantly being published.

About John Sampas. I don't know what mental image some of you have of

Mr. Sampas. By appearance he does not look wealthy. He's not residing in a

mansion. He lives in a small, unassuming house. His clothes aren't Giorgio

Armani. He has always been nothing but pleasant to anyone I seen talking

with him. This is just to say that everything isn't always the way it

appears. This is not to say that Gerry isn't right by his actions but there

is only one voice be spoken out here on this list. We can't speak for Mr.

Sampas. And I assure you that Phil Chaput isn't either. Regards to all and

please, if anyone has written anything of shcolarly importance...please

consider sending it to the Kerouac Quarterly! That's what it is here for.

Again regards, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:55:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: How to Help

To all Friends of the Kerouac Preservation Movement in America (to

paraphrase Joan Baez):

I've been getting some private queries about how to help. Some

people have suggested writing letters. That's a great idea. If you want

John Sampas to preserve the Kerouac Archive now, let him know your feelings.

He can be reached care of his agent:

John Sampas

c/o Sterling Lord/Literistic

65 Bleecker St.

New York, NY 10012

Fax: 212-780-6095

I'd be especially glad if you sent me a copy of whatever you send

Mr. Sampas, as a nice fat sheaf of letters could be useful the next time I'm

in court--to show the breadth of public sentiment for saving the Kerouac

archive. If you've got an academic credential, by all means use it in your

signature.

Another good suggestion was that people call their local newspapers

or radio shows.

Someone asked about sending me money for help with my legal costs.

PLEASE DON'T SEND ME ANY MONEY!!! The last thing I need is Anstee

and Chaput claiming I've cooked up this whole affair as a scam to get rich.

If it gets to the point where my legal case bogs down for lack of

money, we'll do a real fundraiser, and have Kesey and the boys come down

again from Oregon, as they did to help Jan Kerouac.

ONE LAST IMPORTANT SUGGESTION:

I've also received queries about how to help PAUL BLAKE, JR.

In Paul's case, a little cash right now would go a long way toward

getting him and his family back on their feet. The situation he's in now is

kind of hopeless, since he has to spend his time doing maintenance and

custodial duties on the land where his trailer is parked, and it doesn't

give him much time to look for carpentry work and earn the kind of money he

will need to get his family back into another house.

Paul lives in the country, because that's where his work is. In

California, even in the country, housing costs are high, and you need first

and last month's rent, plus security deposit, to move into a rental property.

LET'S GET PAUL BLAKE, JR. AND FAMILY INTO A HOME AGAIN!

If everyone on the Beat-List sends him a check for $10, it will be

enough to do the trick. Is all the joy and reading pleasure Jack Kerouac

gave you worth ten bucks for his beloved nephew, "Lil Luke" in THE DHARMA

BUMS and DESOLATION ANGELS? It is for me.

I'm sending him my check today.

You can write to him at:

Paul E. Blake, Jr.

PO Box 33

Rio Linda, CA 95673

Okay for now. I look forward to hearing from some of you.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:00:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: No Jumping

In a message dated 97-05-12 19:31:56 EDT, you write:

<< I read Kerouac's BIG SUR.

<sniperooni>

>I'm now reading Brautigan's CONFEDERATE GENERAL

>FROM BIG SUR.

Since there seems to be a Big Sur theme, try Henry Miller's

_Big Sur and the Oranges of Hieronymus Bosch_ >>

Anyother books on the reading list relating to Big Sur?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:00:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ESTATE DETAILS/direct flame sick of phil

In a message dated 97-05-13 01:56:58 EDT, you write:

<< i simply lean forward and one of my giant boobs pop out and smothers the

poor guy, >>

Really? (interest, interest)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:01:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Prostate Wars (also know as the Growl from Lowell) (rhymes a

little, no?)

Welcome to the chaaaaampiiiiion fight of the Prostate Wars.

And in this corner

in the red trunks -- PHILLY THE DILLY

"To be fair. Don't write to me for a while I won't be able to answer you. I'm

going to Greece for a few weeks with John Sampas to spend some of Stella's

hard earned money. Philly the Dilly (ha ha)"

and in this corner in the blue trunks -- GERRY

" I'm through arguing with you about Kerouac scholarship. It's a

waste of my time. I want to speak with someone who's MY EQUAL.

I.e., please tell Mr. Sampas to send in the first-string team now.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

Today's fight is sponsored by the New York Public Library Toilet Tissue

Corp., whose motto is "If you need a roll, we've got the scroll."

Winner will get Kerouac's $50,000 raincoat, and we'll throw in a pair of

dirty socks.

Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Herbert Huncke, Jan Kerouac, Joan Haverty, John

Clellon Holmes, Edith Parker, Mary Carney, Stella Sampas, and Gerard are all

watching from the cheap seats drinking from bottles of cheap tokay that they

snuck in under their coats. (They are not all sitting together, sorry-- these

things happen in heaven as well).

Remember, no eye gorging like this [gorge], no hitting below the belt like

this [hit], but as much pissing as you want. I'm your referee, Attila the

Gorilla from Manila.

Judges, get out your #2 pencils, and people-- place your bets for round 1.

Gentlemen, come out swinging....

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:04:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: How to Help, Part Two

Hi, folks! Realized some of you might not know how to send me copies of

your letters to John Sampas concerning preservation of the Kerouac Archive.

You can email me at GNicosia@earthlink.net

fax me at 415-924-2270

or mail hard copy to me at 11 Palm Ave., Corte Madera, CA 94925

If any of you get stories printed anywhere, I'd like to see copies of those too.

Thanks!

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:08:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: subscribe me

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 May 1997 12:51:36 -0400 from

<rfiedma@GROVE.UFL.EDU>

To subscribe, send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Leave the subject

line blank. In the body of your mail type subscribe beat-l first name

last name.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:46:43 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 May 1997 19:07:19 -0400 from

<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Just for the record, I've used some of the Kerouac material at NYPL, although t

hat was several years ago.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:11:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

At 07:46 PM 5/13/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Just for the record, I've used some of the Kerouac material at NYPL, although t

>hat was several years ago.

>I apologize..I cannot speak for everybody but for what I was told by the

archivists at NYPL. The only evidence I can see is that I haven't read

anything of significance in any scholarly journal apart from mine in the

Commonwealth Undergraduate Review (Volume 1 1995-96)and I only used

published books for my research. I have checked for reasons of my own

several journals available at Harvard and Kerouac rarely appears. There were

none to date that were relatively recent. I will feature two in the next

issue of TKQ.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:00:36 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Research in special collections

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 May 1997 20:11:58 -0400 from

<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

I think Ann Charters also wrote something several years ago in the Bulletin of

Research in the Humanities (a/k/a New York Public Library Bulletin). I think t

hat if more Kerouac material could be located at NYPL, the materials would get

more use. I suspect the Columbia collections got a lot more use from scholars-

-as least I used them more personallly--because there were several related coll

ections all in one place. I agree with Gerry that it is more convenient for sc

holars to have most of the materials relating to a writer in a single collectio

n. Unfortunately, that's seldom the case. Perhaps with use of computer techn

ology like the world wide web, long distance research will become more feasible

. Gerry is right again when he says there's no substitute for an original manu

script if you're doing certain kinds of specialized textual research. Most of

the time, however, a facsimile or photo copy or downloaded text will do just fi

ne.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:53:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970513230719.00689d30@pop.pipeline.com>

On 13MAY97 mapaul wrote:

>What troubles me about these posts is this...why is everyone concerned about

>the archives when no one (by the indication of the NYPL) is utilizing what

>is in there already?

>

>

>

> About John Sampas. I don't know what mental image some of you have of

>Mr. Sampas. By appearance he does not look wealthy. He's not residing in a

>mansion. He lives in a small, unassuming house. His clothes aren't Giorgio

>Armani. He has always been nothing but pleasant to anyone I seen talking

>with him. This is just to say that everything isn't always the way it

>appears. This is not to say that Gerry isn't right by his actions but there

>is only one voice be spoken out here on this list. We can't speak for Mr.

>Sampas. And I assure you that Phil Chaput isn't either. Regards to all and

>please, if anyone has written anything of shcolarly importance...please

>consider sending it to the Kerouac Quarterly! That's what it is here for.

>Again regards, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Mr. Sampas would speak for himself. Why he

hasn't is anyone's guess.

Your comment about Nicosia's "constant need to bolster his image by

revealing his

credentials as a scholar" is unfair in my opinion. I see it not as

bragging, but simply informing people that there is a foundation for what

he is saying. He is a Keroauc scholar. Acknowledged as such. As soon as his

book, "HOME TO WAR: A History of the Vietnam Veterans Movement" is

published he will add the subject of the VVAW to his area of expertise.

Every Vietnam Vet I know, and I know a bunch, are eagerly waiting

publication.

As with his "MEMORY BABE: A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac," I'm

looking forward to what I anticipate will be an incredible learning

experience.

Let's get off Nicosia and concentrate on the Kerouac Literary Archives--a

collection that is a world treasure that must be preserved. An informed

public will help turn the tide. Soon the American Library Association will

be involved.

It's not going to stop until the collection is safe and secure.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:29:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

i agree!!! Don't think I don't. If that is his intentions then it certainly

doesn't come across that way. Anyone who takes the time to subscribe to this

list certainly is informed enough to know Mr. Nicosia and his credentials.

This is my point. He wants someone to speak that is on the same level as

"HE". Why wouldn't that be Phil Chaput? Is he any less a "scholar" than

anyone else because he hasn't published a book? His passion about this whole

thing is just as legitimate as anybody else's. He knows enough about Kerouac

to write his own book. The point of someone claiming that they are the

world's best anything would rankle anyone's nerves. I won't take up any more

of my time or the recepients of this list. I know my point is valid.The only

way to take issue with anybody who claims they are the best is to dispute

that claim. In this case it is through scholarship. Every one of the Kerouac

biographies has errors in them through no fault of their own. Some things

simply were not available like they are now. That's not Gerry's fault,

McNally's fault, Clark's fault, or Charter's fault. It is on this viability

that makes the claim of being the authority on anything ludicrous. Ellis

Amburn's new biography is supposedly definitive but he in no way claims to

be an authority on the subject. He, like all the rest, is only as informed

as his sources let him. This is not an estate issue. It is a scholar issue.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I RESPECT Gerry Nicosia and his work

immensely but I do not foster the image of him being an authority on the

subject of Kerouac. Though he indeed knows a lot about the subject, he

doesn't know everything. Nor does John Sampas, Stella Kerouac when she was

alive, nor did Gabrielle Kerouac. Only Jack was an authority of himself. The

best we can do is try to understand him and his work without nurturing this

proclaimed interest with egoism. Regards to Kerouac readers tonight, Paul...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:01:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

As a final note, I thought it would be fair to Gerry to say that there are a

variety of things he has written about Kerouac that are informed and

insightful. His foreword to the Grove edition of The Subterraneans is one of

them. His inclusion in the booklet to The Jack Kerouac Collection is

another. His references throughout his bio with literature and American

culture has been helpful to me in the last three years since I read Memory

Babe. I do not mean to create any animosity or enemies with my postings. It

is just a going concern with anybody in the academic community when there is

an apparent image being fostered as an expert. The great Beethoven

biographer, Alexander Wheelock Thayer said towards the end of his life when

he didn't complete his bio (after some 2000 pages) that he still didn't know

enough. History has found that he knew plenty and yet more bios continue to

come out on Beethoven.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:18:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: No Jumping

In-Reply-To: <970513185952_121312510@emout20.mail.aol.com>

Attila --

Another great Big Sur moment to catch is a movie called

"Celebration at Big Sur", a Woodstock-era concert with

Joan Baez, Crosby Stills Nash (can't remember if Young

was there), lots of good tribal dancing and ocean cliff

views. Also a fascinating bit of *cinema verite* when

the camera catches Stephen Stills flipping out and almost

getting into a fist fight with a fan who's "bugging out"

and acting like an asshole. Then Stills realizes he's starting

to act like an asshole himself, and decides to stop fighting.

Good movie, definitely something people on this list should

catch.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-12 19:31:56 EDT, you write:

>

> << I read Kerouac's BIG SUR.

> <sniperooni>

> >I'm now reading Brautigan's CONFEDERATE GENERAL

> >FROM BIG SUR.

> Since there seems to be a Big Sur theme, try Henry Miller's

> _Big Sur and the Oranges of Hieronymus Bosch_ >>

>

> Anyother books on the reading list relating to Big Sur?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:56:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Prostate Wars (also know as the Growl from Lowell) (rhymes a

little, no?)

Enjoyed the Parody, Atilla.

"If you need a roll, we've got the scroll". Clever!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:52:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

.... It

>is just a going concern with anybody in the academic community when there is

>an apparent image being fostered as an expert....

>

Dear Paul, May 13, 1997

You missed the whole point. My point about credentials is this:

people on this list are being asked to accept Phil Chaput's opinions on the

needs of textual scholars as if he were some sort of expert. To the best of

my knowledge, Phil has no training in this area whatsoever. I was trained

in it throughout graduate school, and have practiced it for 20 years,

writing not only about the works of Kerouac, but also those of William

Wordsworth, Henry David Thoreau, Allen Ginsberg, Bob Kaufman, William S.

Burroughs, Jack Micheline, Nelson Algren, and many others. Moreover, I have

worked in dozens of library special collections around the country.

Anyone with a bit of training knows the rule that you don't use

xeroxes when actual manuscript copy is available. Mr. Chaput posing as an

expert on text analysis with his new theory of xeroxes is absurd.

You told me you have gone back to school yourself. Then surely you

respect the fact that in certain areas expertise and experience count over

someone who is just mouthing off about something he knows nothing about.

Chaput comes on like a freshman humanities student claiming he knows more

about the world than Plato--but he hasn't even read Plato yet, let alone

understood him.

When I said let me speak to my equal, I mean someone who has trained

in this area for as many years as I have. I'd like to hear Ann Charters

come on here and try to tell me that "xeroxes are just as good as

originals." She'd make a laughingstock of herself before the academic

community, and that's why she won't do it. So they send on someone like

Chaput instead, who has nothing to lose.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:59:10 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: the mysterious Corso

At 05:09 PM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote:

>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

>> There was a woman running around a couple of years ago doing

>> interviews for a biography of Corso, but I never heard any more from her (I

>> can't even remember her name!) and I never heard any more about her book

> either.

>

>Yeah, what happened to her? Anyone know if the book ever came out? I had her

>address around here somewhere, but now I can't find it, and i don't remember

>the name.

>

>m

>

Dear Michael: May 13, 1997

I finally remembered her name--it was Kyle Roderick, and she lived in Los

Angeles. That's all I remember.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:27:22 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

So they send on someone like Chaput instead, who has nothing to lose.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

what evidence is there for this claim. similar claims have been made in

others letters. i could check the archives i suppose. my preference

would obviously be a negotiated settlement, but i don't understand

phrases like this which seem to pop up in your letters quite often. it

reflects something of what Hofstadter called the Paranoid Style.

Perhaps i'm incorrect, but to this point i've seen no data provided in

any of your arguments to support such claims. i hope that the kerouac

collection is not hanging on such a theory of conspiracy given the

weakness of the form of argumentation within the field of judicial

reasoning.

just wondering in kansas .... :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:02:26 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

i forgot to include credentials. they ain't much. I'm currently on

TIAA permanent and total disability for manic depression. Others

include:

david rhaesa M.A. rhetorical criticism Baylor University, assistant

debate coach at Dartmouth College, Ph.D. program in rhetorical theory

and graduate assistant instructor in communications AND assistant debate

coach at the University of Iowa, assistant director of debate and

instructor in rhetoric of political communication Augustana College,

Rock Island, IL. (should i include summer teaching workshops or

consultation for high school programs?)

but i prefer just

david or race

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:43 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <v03007802af9df8229a77@[206.190.9.125]>

hi zach , i really enjoied reading your post!

did you go on acidtrips through the states with your friends?

just curious, dont you get the horror meeting people (normal people) while

tripping? oh man, i cant stand people in this position and i would die if

i even had to talk to them!

--------------sincerely

moritz rossbach

saarbruecken, germany

moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------

..and i tell you things that you allready know, so you can say:

"i really identify with you....SO MUCH!"

-Henry Rollins: Liar

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

> david rhaesa said:

> >i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

> >it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

> >us..... :)

>

> oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

> what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

> kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

> hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

> just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

> back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

> war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

> gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

> the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

> abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

> cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

> Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

> a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

> a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

> pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

> iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

> bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

> our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

> that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

> not, don't bother).

> So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

> those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

> to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

> the next $%&^# Batman movie.

> but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

>

> -zach

> i'm all for it.

>

> -z

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:09:26 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

Moritz Rossbach wrote:

>

> hi zach , i really enjoied reading your post!

> did you go on acidtrips through the states with your friends?

> just curious, dont you get the horror meeting people (normal people) while

> tripping? oh man, i cant stand people in this position and i would die if

> i even had to talk to them!

>

> --------------sincerely

> moritz rossbach

> saarbruecken, germany

> moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

> http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------

>

> ..and i tell you things that you allready know, so you can say:

> "i really identify with you....SO MUCH!"

> -Henry Rollins: Liar

>

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

>

> > david rhaesa said:

> > >i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

> > >it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

> > >us..... :)

> >

> > oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not really

> > what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money hungry

> > kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the future.

> > hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

> > just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

> > back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

> > war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

> > gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

> > the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

> > abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

> > cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

> > Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a movement or

> > a march against that. no one knows what or when things will happen...We had

> > a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

> > pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

> > iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical weapons

> > bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate all of

> > our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

> > that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

> > not, don't bother).

> > So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

> > those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

> > to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

> > the next $%&^# Batman movie.

> > but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

> >

> > -zach

> > i'm all for it.

> >

> > -z

> >

the key in meeting people is simple....count to five between reacting to

anything. and remember the street isn't swirling up like a tornado to

them and they can't imagine that it is for you :)

but be careful ... always be careful ... don't fall into another century

for twenty years or something. ... unless you want to. :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:06:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Leni Riefenstahl Re: Chaput is Kaput!

cari beat,

Leni is 90 years old lady,

after the year zero...

in the Hitler's bunker in Berlin,

Leni Riefenstahl directed the

documentary movie "Chaput is Kaput!"

the move was archived by the "Enigma Blob U.S.A. Force"

now when Leni is 90 years old

the Beat-List recalls this great piece...

Om is as i AM

yrs rinaldo

p.s.

Om Om Om OM OM OM i

om om om om am i Am

mo mo mo mo the hare is a HARE

a hare is a HARE a hare is a hare

a beet is a beet

a bee is a bee Am i Am i Om i Om

oh a great HARE is knoking to my door...

* THE (a) not competent beat

tears are in my eyes *

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:14:36 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:09:26 -0500

>Reply-To: race@midusa.net

>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

>Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>

>Moritz Rossbach wrote:

>>

>> hi zach , i really enjoied reading your post!

>> did you go on acidtrips through the states with your friends?

>> just curious, dont you get the horror meeting people (normal people) while

>> tripping? oh man, i cant stand people in this position and i would die if

>> i even had to talk to them!

>>

>> --------------sincerely

>> moritz rossbach

>> saarbruecken, germany

>> moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

>> http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------

>>

>> ..and i tell you things that you allready know, so you can say:

>> "i really identify with you....SO MUCH!"

>> -Henry Rollins: Liar

>>

>> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

>>

>> > david rhaesa said:

>> > >i ain't certain the future is all it's cracked up to be. no offense.

>> > >it seems your generation is just as capable of fucking up as the rest of

>> > >us..... :)

>> >

>> > oh definitely. i think we already have; _I_ already have. that's not

really

>> > what i was saying. there seems to be another group of powermad money

hungry

>> > kids welling up, another mid 80s hell. doesn't make so good for the

future.

>> > hopefully they will be beaten down. the future isn't going to be better,

>> > just different, and new. because it is the future, you know. and besides,

>> > back in the 60's there was a whole lot more to fuck up with (race issues,

>> > war), and i don't think, after all was said and done, the fuckups on the

>> > gov't side tremendous, on the little ppl side (us), close to nil. here i

>> > the 90s, what? i don't even know what to call the major issues. gay lib?

>> > abortion? aids? this generation/decade seems to be plagued by wackos and

>> > cults: Oklahoma City, Waco, Dahmer, Heaven's Gate, Atlanta Bomber, World

>> > Trade Center, Planes blowing up. Can't protest that. can't be a

movement or

>> > a march against that. no one knows what or when things will

happen...We had

>> > a 3 day war that was a bunch of bullshit, not even enough time to get the

>> > pickett signs made before all the laser guided missles hit the piles of

>> > iraqis in the sand, in the munitions plants. lets blow up chemical

weapons

>> > bunkers that we _know_ are chemical weapons bunkers and contaminate

all of

>> > our faithful soldiers! maybe one of them will give birth to a kangaroo

>> > that's really the reincarnation of Jack Kerouac! (ever see 'Tank Gir'? if

>> > not, don't bother).

>> > So i have a lot of respect for the protests and marches and _ambition_ of

>> > those involved in the 60s. not an easy thing to do...i wish for something

>> > to drive my generation into action, instead of Jenny McCarthy's boobs or

>> > the next $%&^# Batman movie.

>> > but oh well. i rant. apaologies.

>> >

>> > -zach

>> > i'm all for it.

>> >

>> > -z

>> >

>

>the key in meeting people is simple....count to five between reacting to

>anything. and remember the street isn't swirling up like a tornado to

>them and they can't imagine that it is for you :)

>

>but be careful ... always be careful ... don't fall into another century

>for twenty years or something. ... unless you want to. :)

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

Leni Riefenstahl is filming yr performance mates....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:02:27 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: mj smith? (kerouac connection)

hey!

if anyone out there has mitchell j smith's - he of the _kerouac

connection_ - email address,( or mitchell, if

you're

reading this) please contact me as i need to get a hold of him.

thanks a bundle

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:39:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970513170323.17867B-100000@crystal.palace.net>

I said:

>>... i've got friends who do them every year now, for the whole

>> summer, and no they're not following phish or the undead dead. we know what

>> DID happen but it's irrelevant to us because we concentrate on what CAN

>> happen. sick of cultural recycling...Try flying from Chicago to Prague and

>> Prague to Chicago on ecstasy there's something new...(well, kinda)

Eric said:

>Following phish is no more un-genuine than SPECIFICALLY not following

>phish.

>the past is not IRRELEVANT if you want to improve the present or future.

that's exactly what i was saying in this part of my original post:

" like it or not,

future is where we're headed. ...*the ideas and concepts laid down by KK and

crew, AG, Jk, even my dear WSB need to be taken and listened to and

reapplied.*...

very few things are timeless. ideas that affect society hardly

are, seeing that society is a fast changing monster."

i was trying to get across your point, that the past is indeed necessary

for advancement, that it is food for thought, reinterpretation, etc...

>Zach, you wrote something about -- there's too much going on now to be

>dwelling on stuff rooted in the past -- (excuse the possible

>misinterpretation, but i fucked up this email editing job.)

>

>Anything one does IS what's happening NOW. This particular Prankster

>voyage is new because it is (or at the time it just occured) was the

>present. To say that an event is somehow not "new" or "current" enough is

>meaningless, assumes there is a definite predictable notion of what MUST

>go on at any given moment in the "current" era.

here this seems to me a basic philosophical debate, with big potential

blow-up. past vs future vs present.I'd say if the pranksters had been

continuously driving around tripping balls for 30 yrs, i'd look at it

differently. But they disappear from most of the country save their areas

of dwelling i'm sure, to resurface in the late 90s for more pranksterish

fun. Hm. to me, this smells like marketing ploy. very few who were not

deeply ingrained in KK and the MPs are going to think otherwise. cynicism

runs deep this day and age. but then, i suppose those ppl don't really

matter, when i think about it. and i can't think of anything they're trying

to market, so maybe i'm wrong, but i still get that feeling.

>If they, the pranksters, want to drive around make appearences like they

>did before, why the hell not? You dont have to avoid something just

>because something similar has occured. And if other people are amused by

>it, why should it bother you?

It's not just similar, it is almost 100% the same (so i guess that's still

similar, but very very similar). it bothers me because it seems silly and

self-demeaning. it doesn't bother me that other ppl will get into it. they

may have big personal connections to the whole thing.... i get a lot of

shit for the things i'm into. sometimes i try to make them see what i see,

sometimes i just let it be. i'm also seeing the things i love being turned

into corporate tools to use on target markets. MTV subscribing to our

mailing lists, showing up at our events....anyways, another subject,

another subject. So i wouldn't go around telling ppl who participate in

this reunion: 'hey quit livin' in the past' or anything, because, as you've

said, their past is also their present. I just wouldn't want to live that

way.

maybe my growing up is the reason i'm so quick to dismiss the past. even

though fundamentals were laid down those years i feel it has little to do

with who i am now...so maybe that affects my outlook: i took what i felt i

needed and made it into something i need more now...

then again, i'm only awake for half an hour, so thinking is s luggish. take

with grain of salt.

cheers,

zach

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:47:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: The 100 Year Test

In my musings about what's going on with these squabbles and the various

issues I got to thinking about what any of this might mean to the world 100

years from now. My analysis:

1). Whether John Sampas & family get rich or not will not make a

difference.

2). John Sampas & Jan Kerouac will probably be a small footnote in history.

3). Gerry Nicosia may or may not be a footnote in history.

4). Phil Chaput and Jerry Cimino and the Beat-L etc will NOT be a footnote

in history.

5). Whether the will was forged or not will not make a difference to

anyone.

6). Jan Kerouac will never have seen any money as a result of the Estate

Battle because she died in 1996.

7). Whether Paul Blake sees any money from the estate or not will have made

a difference to Paul Blake and his family alone.

8). Whether Allen Ginsberg or anyone else even cared about the Estate

Battle will not matter and probably won't even be recorded.

9). Whether anyone "lied" about anything will not make a difference to

anyone.

10). Whether anyone slandered anyone will not make a difference to anyone.

11). Many items sold off in secret will not be known by anyone.

12). Johnny Depp's heirs will probably own a $50,000 raincoat.

13). The whereabouts of other items sold will not be accounted for by

anyone.

14).* Any items in public archives will be valued by scholars and Beat fans

alike.

15).* Any items periodically or permanently put on public display will

enhance the messages of Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation writers.

As I distill this down, my opinion is that the ONLY thing that is central to

any discussion is the Archived Collection of Jack Kerouac. That means only

items 14 and 15 are central to the debate. The Archive Collection is what is

really important to history. Everything else is a side issue.

I don't think the issue should be whether an owner of any property has the

legal right to sell it to anyone they choose. Who can argue that? That is

the law and we all agreed to it when we bought into our society by either

being born here or moving here.

The issue here though, is do John Sampas & family own these items legally?

The concept of the will being forged is a tool. It is a technicality that

Jan Kerouac was able to use to challenge the ability of John Sampas to

control her father's archives. She did not like the idea that Sampas was

selling off her father's items. She also discovered that her grandmother's

will looks like it may have been forged. She used that discovery to legally

challenge John Sampas' right to own and control the archives. The forged

will is simply a technicality that may allow the Jack Kerouac Archives to

stay a national (or international) treasure.

Now the Sampas family can only claim the will is not forged. What else can

they say? If they agree it is forged they know they have to give up control

of their family fortune. And in an effort to try to placate people, to get

Jan to back off or to gain sympathy for their position, they claim they're

taking good care of the archives, that they want to protect it and get it all

into a public institution. They do this in an obvious effort to buy time.

And Jan and Gerry continue to scream bloody murder because they believe

unaccounted for items continue to be sold with no public knowledge of the

transactions.

Now I don't know whether John Sampas ever told anyone he wants to get the

archives into a public institution. I never heard him say it and I've never

seen it in print other than from his opponents. But if he did commit to

getting the archives into a public institution he should HONOR THAT

COMMITTMENT! If he said this years ago and still has not done it he is a

dishonorable man who was simply paying lip service to his detractors in the

hopes they would go away.

Jan Kerouac did go away. Gerry Nicosia has not.

It is the Collection that is important. Everything else is a side issue.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:01:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject: Re: The gorror of fen koing hurthur

In-Reply-To: <3379B986.728F@midusa.net>

Moritz Rossbach wrote:

>>

>> hi zach , i really enjoied reading your post!

>> did you go on acidtrips through the states with your friends?

>> just curious, dont you get the horror meeting people (normal people) while

>> tripping? oh man, i cant stand people in this position and i would die if

>> i even had to talk to them!

>>

and david rhaesa wrote:

>

>the key in meeting people is simple....count to five between reacting to

>anything. and remember the street isn't swirling up like a tornado to

>them and they can't imagine that it is for you :)

>

>but be careful ... always be careful ... don't fall into another century

>for twenty years or something. ... unless you want to. :)

>

>

i've always been able to keep my finger on it in public, and i've been in

very public places with a head full of cid: movie theaters, mini-golf

courses, state parks, malls, grocery stores. ppl think i'm bizarre when i'm

straight so they don't think anything of it when i'm not...the only odd

experience i've had:

laying on a rock high high up on a cliff in a state park with two friends,

twisted like crazy, exchanging sunglasses because the sun looks different

through each pair; a father with three little girls comes up and sits maybe

2 feet away from us. this is a secluded, somewhat dangerous rock to be on.

these kids are hoppin up and down, the father's looking at us weird and

taking pictures of his girls...my 2 friends freak out immediately, going

off somewhere; i laid back and stared at the sun till the kids and dad

left, then my friends start babbling about how fucking weird that was, so i

went down to the lake and sat down in the water till it was just up under

my lips, till i turned into a prune. those kids had gotten to me and it was

a little hard to deal with, as i'd been up for four days and had a fresh 2

hits in me, so i needed the relax time...

i just keep in mind that everyone no matter what their state, is

essentially human. and if you think really hard, you can feel that other

humanity. it's the only thing i've experienced i'd actually call

'profound', and it's happened both sober and otherwise....

etc etc

zach

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:02:17 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: something completely different ....

since many seem to have shifted from the all-star wrestling vernacular

to the Joan Baez visions of perfection, i have one to throw in the ring.

does anyone feel that list members invidually or in some collective

action maybe a movement you never know could have success in pushing

more beat generation literature into high school curriculi across the

America? is this a hopeless cause? seems it might slightly meet the

100 years concern meters. just a thought. i'm not certain at all where

one would begin or end. teaching materials for high school level to

supplement the beat writing would probably be helpful.

hopeful in the Heart of Kansas

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:03:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Passion and knowledge about a subject is not the same as scholarship. Every

'definitive' biography of anyone is subject to new interpetration and new

vision and new research. Textual scholarship is closer to archaeology than

to lit crit, as I see it. I knew little about it really until coming here

and working with Harry Hayford, who's been working on the Definitive Edition

of Herman Melville for the last 32 years, which we publish (at great

financial loss, I might add). In his 80's he still makes his way across

country to the Houghton Library in Boston to pore over the original

manuscripts as those are the only way to be sure of what was originally

written. He would even at his age pack a weighty punch in my face if I

suggested he work off xerox copies. He laughed himself stupid at the idea

that scholars could work off scanned copies on the Web. If you care about

the exactitudes of textual scholarship (not all that many do, including most

of this list, I'm sure) then only the originals would do.

Given that Melville died a failure and practically unknown as a writer, it's

a miracle his manuscripts survived as well as they did, and can still be

studied today. So few of his letters survived that even now the 'definitive'

biography just published has huge gaps in our knowledge of him. I think all

of us on this list would agree that JK's work will not fade away over the

coming years, that he created something radically new and different in his

contribution to 20th Century literature and that his work will continue to

be studied. Proper publication of his work, and proper and professional

archiving of his manuscripts and letters are essential to this future work,

and I very much hope that those responsible legally for ensuring that this

happens do their duty to us and to future generations of readers and

scholars and to every 14 year old who picks up On The Road and is never

quite the same again afterwards.

Nick W-W

Is he any less a "scholar" than

>anyone else because he hasn't published a book? His passion about this whole

>thing is just as legitimate as anybody else's. He knows enough about Kerouac

>to write his own book. The point of someone claiming that they are the

>world's best anything would rankle anyone's nerves. I won't take up any more

>of my time or the recepients of this list. I know my point is valid.The only

>way to take issue with anybody who claims they are the best is to dispute

>that claim. In this case it is through scholarship. E

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:01:00 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: [Fwd: Re: something completely different ....]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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oops ... if this becomes a thread this shouldn't be backchannel. i

imagine that many many can provide more useful thought than i on the

"why" question. i will ponder it for some time and attempt to come with

some more of a reasonable rationale. but i could definitely use help.

for me, it is by total accidents that i was exposed to this literature

which i seem to identify with quite well. not certain such exposure

should be left to Kharma Dumbs

dbr

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:58:24 -0500

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

Subject: Re: something completely different ....

References: <199705141609.JAA04847@hsc.usc.edu>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>

> Why would anyone want to push beat literature into High School?

>

good question i suppose. and it immediately popped into me brain that

one could drop the beat part and still have a good question.

push seems to be one of those joking words that is far too serious.

probably would be a better way if things weren't pushed. but i doubt

we'll get to that in the near future.

perhaps i'm out of it on this. i don't know what the "To Kill a

Mockingbird"'s and "Great Gatsby"'s of the 90s are.

it seems that if literature is going to be pushed on students that beat

literature deserves its just deserts. it seems odd to me to teach 20th

century American literature surveys at the high school level and exclude

these figures.

also seems that the notion of writing fiction about real life ... not

being constrained by oh so many rules upon rules ... my encourage

students to take the prospect of their own writing more seriously.

part of me says why ask why and sips another sip of coffee, while

another part seriously says that the question deserves some thought. i

promise to put some into it.

david rhaesa

--------------964A0A783F--

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:02:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

....

>Now I don't know whether John Sampas ever told anyone he wants to get the

>archives into a public institution. I never heard him say it and I've never

>seen it in print other than from his opponents. But if he did commit to

>getting the archives into a public institution he should HONOR THAT

>COMMITTMENT! If he said this years ago and still has not done it he is a

>dishonorable man who was simply paying lip service to his detractors in the

>hopes they would go away.

>

>Jerry Cimino

>Fog City

>

Dear Jerry: May 13, 1997

Thanks for writing an even better, and shorter, summary than the one

I tried to do the past two days.

There's very little I can add to this. I think you have once for

all stilled Mr. Anstee's claim that I am doing this for fame and fortune.

As you point out, saving Jack's archive is not going to get me much of a

footnote in history. If I get a footnote, I'll have to earn it with the

things I write. I made a start with MEMORY BABE. Hopefully HOME TO WAR

will add a bit to that footnote. Since I'm not an old man, I may live to

write quite a few more books (and to see some of my unpublished books

published), God willing, and that will be my footnote.

Now as for Mr. Sampas's statement of his intentions, here's the

evidence:

On May 17, 1994 (three years ago), Jan Kerouac gave her press

conference in New York to announce the filing of her lawsuit against the

Sampases. George Tobia, Mr. Sampas's lawyer, showed up uninivited, and

asked for an opportunity to speak to the press. Although Jan was not

obligated to give him the microphone, she did, and he spoke for several minutes.

HERE IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM MR. TOBIA (ON TAPE, WHICH I HAVE):

"THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS THAT THE ESTATE HAD ARE ALL IN PUBLIC

ARCHIVES. A LOT OF THEM ARE IN THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY, I THINK SOME

ARE IN NYU ..."

Jan Kerouac interrupts: "Have you seen them personally?"

Mr. Tobia: "I HAVE NOT. NO. I JUST STARTED TO INQUIRE AS TO THIS,

BUT THIS IS THE INFORMATION I HAVE. TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NONE OF THOSE

MANUSCRIPTS HAVE BEEN SOLD [to private collectors]...."

[The testimony of Jeffrey Weinberg, Mr. Sampas's former dealer,

contradicts this.]

Mr. Tobia goes on to say:

"THERE ARE IMPORTANT NOTEBOOKS AND SO FORTH. I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN

THOSE NOTEBOOKS IN THE ESTATE, AND THEY ARE NOT BEING CUT UP PIECEMEAL OR

SOLD PIECEMEAL OR WHATEVER. I HAVE SEEN THEM. THEY ARE BEING CARED FOR,

AND THE VIEW ABOUT WHAT'S TO BE DONE WITH THOSE IS TO HAVE THEM PLACED IN

THE PROPER PUBLIC FACILITY FOR ALL TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF. THEY'RE NOT TO BE

SOLD.

"THE SAME THING WITH THE PAINTINGS AND DRAWINGS. THEY ARE IN FACT

GOING TO BE ON DISPLAY THIS WEEK AT A COUPLE OF GALLERIES HERE IN NEW YORK.

ALL OF THE PAINTINGS AND DRAWINGS HAVE BEEN PRESERVED, AND AGAIN, THEY'RE

BEING SHOWN THIS WEEK, AND EVENTUALLY WILL BE PLACED IN THE CUSTODY OF SOME

UNIVERSITY OR SOME OTHER ARCHIVE."

Please note: Mr. Tobia was wrong about the paintings and drawings

too. I held in my hand a drawing by Kerouac that was sold by Sampas to San

Francisco dealer Richard Marcel. Also, several Kerouac paintings have been

offered by dealers in recent years. Since Kerouac never sold--or to my

knowledge, even gave away--any of his paintings, I must assume these

paintings were sold originally by John Sampas.

A day or two later, after I gave a talk on MEXICO CITY BLUES at

NYU's Beat conference, several people in the audience engaged me in a

discussion about the Kerouac Estate, and asked why Mr. Sampas would not put

all of Kerouac's manuscripts into a library for study.

Mr. Sampas, who was in the audience, stood up and spoke to the

audience himself. (This was taped by the university, but I do not

personally have a copy.) Mr. Sampas said (as I recall from memory):

"Everything is already in the New York Public Library."

I then said, "Mr. Sampas, you're not telling the truth. I just

spoke to the librarians at the New York Public Library, and they don't have

anywhere near the entire Kerouac Archive."

Mr. Sampas then yelled, rather gruffly: "YOU don't have any business

talking to the New York Public Library! THAT'S MY BUSINESS!" And he

proceeded to leave the room with his small group of friends.

For the record, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:19:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

Comments: To: nweir-w@NWU.EDU

>>> Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU> 05/14/97 11:03am >>>

He would even at his age pack a weighty punch in my face if I

suggested he work off xerox copies. He laughed himself stupid at the

idea

that scholars could work off scanned copies on the Web. If you care

about

the exactitudes of textual scholarship (not all that many do, including

most

of this list, I'm sure) then only the originals would do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

**Nick,

Quick question for you. How are the "exactitudes of textual

scholarship" diminished by working off copies (xerox or the Web)? Not

trying to be a smart-ass, just don't understand.

Thanks,

-Mark

MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:33:54 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Jack Kerouac (read by Johnny Depp)

In-Reply-To: <s379adda.026@mail.campbell-mithun.com>

Mexico City Blues

"Chorus 113"

Jack Kerouac

(read by Johnny Depp)

Got up and dressed up

went out & got laid

Then died and got buried

a coffin in the grave,

Man --

Yet everything is perfect,

Because it is empty,

Because it is perfect

with emptiness,

Because it's not even happening.

Everything

Is Ignorant of its own emptiness--

Anger

Doesn't like to be reminded of fits--

You start with the Teaching

Inscrutable of the Diamond

And end with it, your goal

is your startingplace,

No race was run, no walk

of prophetic toenails

Across Arabies of hot

meaning you just--

numbly don't get there

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:43:23 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: The horror of ken going furthur

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970514151436.010af00c@pop.gpnet.it>

>>but be careful ... always be careful ... don't fall into another century

>>for twenty years or something. ... unless you want to. :)

>>

>>david rhaesa

>>

>>

>Leni Riefenstahl is filming yr performance mates....

rinaldo--isn't the title something like Triumph of the Quills (Swills?

Pills? Last Wills and Testaments? //John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:57:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

You can't read them properly - lots of the annotations are pencilled in, and

they don't photocopy or scan that well - you can see what might have been

erased, date the paper, that type of thing. That's what I'm told anyhow.

Obviously though only bona-fide scholars are allowed to do this - originals

reatc badly to light, especially neon, and the paper can crumble. For the

likes of you and me, it would be fine. But it's a great deal of interest ot

scholars, especially when dealing with writers who had an unusual style, to

try and piece together the writing process - how each draft changed, how

those changes were made etc. The 'original' Joyce Ulysses was significantly

different from the one first published. My guess would be that drafts of

many of JK's books read very differently. IF there's a suggestion being made

(I'm not quite sure that there is) that the plan is to let scholars look at

copies while the originals are sold off for big bucks, that would be

unfortunate.

BTW, one of the big problems scholars see with computers is that all those

early drafts of the great works of the future will be lost as all the

drafting is done on screen. So take it carefully with that delete key, folks

Nick

>

>

>>>> Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU> 05/14/97 11:03am >>>

> He would even at his age pack a weighty punch in my face if I

>suggested he work off xerox copies. He laughed himself stupid at the

>idea

>that scholars could work off scanned copies on the Web. If you care

>about

>the exactitudes of textual scholarship (not all that many do, including

>most

>of this list, I'm sure) then only the originals would do.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

>**Nick,

>

>Quick question for you. How are the "exactitudes of textual

>scholarship" diminished by working off copies (xerox or the Web)? Not

>trying to be a smart-ass, just don't understand.

>

>Thanks,

>

>-Mark

>MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:48:17 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Leni Riefenstahl a woman in photography

In-Reply-To: <970514114650_1457705917@emout19.mail.aol.com>

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/leni/leni/leni.html

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:56:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Research in special collections

>. Gerry is right again when he says there's no substitute for an original manu

>script if you're doing certain kinds of specialized textual research. Most of

>the time, however, a facsimile or photo copy or downloaded text will do just fi

>ne.

>

-- Bill Gargan

Dear Bill, May 14, 1997

Of course if I'm researching in New Delhi I'd be happy to get a

Kerouac text on the World Wide Web, and the Web has the advantage, with

digitalization, of absolute fidelity to the original. I have not, by the

way, heard anyone suggest that Mr. Sampas bothered digitalizing images of

all the Kerouac writings he sold. For many researchers, xeroxes of

Kerouac's writings are all they'll ever get to see.

But let me tell you, I had plenty of trouble doing my research at

Columbia, specifically because they would always trot out xeroxes of

Kerouac's letters, many of which were hand-printed in his famous fading

pencil. Their motive was good--they were trying to protect the originals

from the wear and tear of too much use. But many times I could not make out

whole portions of the text on the xerox, and I had to demand that they bring

out the originals--promising, of course, that I would handle them with kid

gloves.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:00:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

In-Reply-To: <199705141743.AA234041817@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Nick Weir-Williams wrote:

> BTW, one of the big problems scholars see with computers is that all those

> early drafts of the great works of the future will be lost as all the

> drafting is done on screen.

There are programs out there which allow for the recording of every

keystroke in order -- writers just have to be aware of & use them. Even more

useful (one of my dreams, actually), is recording keystrokes & useful _time_

information, so that the pace of a writer's typing is recorded!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:23:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

At 12:27 AM 5/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> So they send on someone like Chaput instead, who has nothing to lose.

>> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

>

>what evidence is there for this claim. similar claims have been made in

>others letters. i could check the archives i suppose. my preference

>would obviously be a negotiated settlement, but i don't understand

>phrases like this which seem to pop up in your letters quite often. it

>reflects something of what Hofstadter called the Paranoid Style.

>Perhaps i'm incorrect, but to this point i've seen no data provided in

>any of your arguments to support such claims. i hope that the kerouac

>collection is not hanging on such a theory of conspiracy given the

>weakness of the form of argumentation within the field of judicial

>reasoning.

>

>just wondering in kansas .... :)

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

Dave, May 14, 1997

What I meant is this. Stephen Hawking is arguing with another

astrophysicist. The other astrophysicist suddenly says, "The moon is made

of green cheese." The other astrophysicist is either marked as loony or

forever loses his credibility in the astrophysics community.

However, suppose Hawking is talking with Chaput, and Chaput says,

"The moon is made of green cheese."

Chaput doesn't lose his professional credibility, because he has

none in astrophysics.

My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility. She doesn't dare do

that, and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for

Sampas).

Chaput says he "sees Sampas around." Every argument he's brought

against me in the past two weeks has already been used either by Sampas

himself, his lawyers, or Ann Charters over the past three years. I feel

like I'm replaying an old, old chess game with him. Now how does Chaput

know all this stuff? The only people who remember the moves of the game

that exactly are the ones who played it.

You may consider that circumstantial evidence, but people have been

sent to the gallows on circumstantial evidence, if it's strong enough.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:33:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

Dear members of the Beat-L:

I want to quickly take a few moments to make one important point.

In as much as Gerald Nicosia and a few other people have passionately stated

their respective opinions concerning the Kerouac archives, over the past few

weeks and even today, these people say things in their email messages to this

group that just are not true. These untruths start out as rumors. Gerry (who

admitted last week that he sometimes goes "from memory")

posts wrong information and then someone else picks it up as true.

Here are some examples:

1. Gerry writes today that John Sampas sold Richard Marcel a drawing by Jack

Kerouac. This is not true. I'd like to add that

the drawing is a sketch with no significant meaning to anything else from the

archive - it's a table napkin drawing, if you will.

I can't understand how a simple sketch affects the integrity of the archive.

2. Johnny Depp never paid $50,000 for a raincoat. But Jerry C. keeps on

bringing up a $50,000 raincoat purchase. Nicosia mentioned it last week and

now everyone thinks it really happened. What Depp bought and how much he paid

for what he bought isn't the business of anyone except those involved with

the transaction. Where Kerouac's old clothes end up is really not an issue

regarding the archive. Jerry C. is correct about that certainly. But the

price tag of $50K for a raincoat is bullshit.

3. In a posting a few weeks ago, Gerry Nicosia wrote that I let someone know

explicit details about all the sales that took place.

Gerry and I discussed this error on his part and he corrected himself on the

Beat-L later on. The other day I was surfing around and discovered Jo Grant's

web page on which he is running Nicosia's piece about the JK archives. In

that essay, the same error that Gerry took back later on is still there on Jo

Grant's page.

I wrote Jo Grant and asked him to remove the error written about me. His

response to me was that he hasn't had time yet. He's been too busy. The man

knows it's a lie and doesn't have time to remove it??

So, my friends, please keep your heads level during this Estate debate.

Remember that not every detail thrown at you by members of either side will

always be the truth. I do not believe that it is Gerry Nicosia's intent to

mislead us in any way. But he relies on his memory too much still without

checking the facts. So rumors and untruths continue to circulate. And that is

my point.

Thanks for reading this -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:52:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Overview, Part One

In a message dated 97-05-12 15:00:01 EDT, you write:

<< Dear Beat-List folks: May 12, 1997

A few days ago there was a post from Leon Tabory, deporing the "very

tasteless, rude" interruption that I had caused in his daily reading of

Beat-List postings, by precipitating a flood of Estate Fight messages.

(snip snip - enough already!!!!) I do believe that,

after six years' work on a major biography, the only critical biography, of

Kerouac, and many more years writing articles and lecturing about the Beats

at libraries, bookstores, and not a few universities, I earned a right to

speak out here for a couple of weeks. <<<

Perhaps it's not *that* you are here, but *how* you are here.

>> Mr. Rod Anstee, who seems to have disappeared from the list, was

actually one of the prime causes of my appearance here. Since 1983 (if

memory serves right) Mr. Anstee has been contacting me for help with his

writing projects. Then Mr. Joe Grant informed me etc. etc. etc.

spy versus spy (I sigh)

>> This brings me round to the BIG ISSUE, which all the smoke and

mirrors from amateur (but persistent) magician Phil Chaput have sought to

obscure. I refer to Phil as an amateur not to put him down, but to clearly

reveal his credentials, just as I have now revealed Anstee's.

Phil Chaput is not recognized as a scholar anywhere, to the best of

my knowledge. <<<

Lucky for him, perhaps he can avoid the dangers of scholarship that others

have not.

>> I am recognized as a preeminent literary and Kerouac scholar

around the world. My point is not to boast; my point is only this: that I

certainly know a lot more about the requirements of literary scholarship

than Mr. Chaput. <<

This isn't the first time I've seen it on a maillist: Some expert

amiably "asks" or "offers" to discuss something, relatively sure that someone

will disgree with them...in fact, asking for it! And whoever steps forward

to do so becomes an excuse to pour forth the "pet diatribe" which was

prepared long before.

If the disagreer persists, credentials are compared.

>> Can you imagine trying to doing meaningful textual analysis of

Kerouac--or a study of the development of his composition process--without

access to ANY of those books in their original form(s)? IMPOSSIBLE!!! Yet

that is the situation Kerouac scholars find themselves in today.

<<

So I should worry about these poor Kerouac scholars who are either scratching

each others eyes out or stabbing each other in the back, or else busy

changing our little corner of cyberspace into a weeks-long info-mercial ?

It is to laugh!

Julie (no scholar - don't bother checking)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:00:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

>

>1. Gerry writes today that John Sampas sold Richard Marcel a drawing by Jack

>Kerouac. This is not true. I'd like to add that

>the drawing is a sketch with no significant meaning to anything else from the

>archive - it's a table napkin drawing, if you will.

>I can't understand how a simple sketch affects the integrity of the archive.

>

>2. Johnny Depp never paid $50,000 for a raincoat. But Jerry C. keeps on

>bringing up a $50,000 raincoat purchase. Nicosia mentioned it last week and

>now everyone thinks it really happened. What Depp bought and how much he paid

>for what he bought isn't the business of anyone except those involved with

>the transaction. Where Kerouac's old clothes end up is really not an issue

>regarding the archive. Jerry C. is correct about that certainly. But the

>price tag of $50K for a raincoat is bullshit.

>

(Jeffrey Weinberg)

Dear Jeffrey, May 14, 1997

I welcome your corrections. There is no doubt that you are one of a

half dozen people who know more about Sampas's sale of Kerouac archival

pieces than anyone else on the planet.

But I am puzzled. Why do you say Marcel's purchase of the drawing

from Sampas is "not true." Of course, Marcel dealt with YOU as the

intermediary, but the seller was obviously John Sampas, the owner of all

these Kerouac pieces.

Moreover, my memory is that it was an actual drawing on paper, not a

"bar napkin."

Why isn't an actual drawing significant? Besides, I brought it up

only as evidence that what Mr. Sampas's lawyer George Tobia said--that NO

ARTWORK HAD BEEN SOLD--was inaccurate.

Besides, what about the Kerouac paintings that keep turning up in

bookseller catalogues? There was one in a Lopez catalogue a while back,

called, I think "Smerdyakov Serenading (Someone)," and priced at around ten

thousand dollars.

As for the fifty thousand dollar price tag, it was in the papers and

also told to me by Johnny Depp's brother Dan Depp, who runs a bookstore in

Santa Cruz. Dan is very close to his brother, they travel together a lot,

and so I figured he knew what he was talking about.

Sorry about Joe Grant. He doesn't "work for me," as the Sampases

claim, and I don't have much control about what he puts up or takes off,

though I have sent him material periodically, and the piece he has up now

was given him a couple of years ago. That seems to be the problem with a

lot of these Web postings. Levi Asher has kept up a piece I gave him about

the 1994 NYU Beat conference, which is obviously several years out of date.

This whole thing is like a big mystery story that keeps unraveling,

and with each week and each month, we learn more than we knew before. It

wouldn't have to be a mystery, however, if Mr. Sampas would just come clean

with all the facts and figures right now--tell us what he's sold to whom,

what he intends to do with the rest, and when he intends to do it.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:09:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for the clarification regarding the raincoat. I consider the

situation regarding the raincoat a minor side issue, and while I may have

passed along an inaccuracy regarding the amount paid, I don't believe there

is any dispute that the raincoat was in fact purchased by Depp. Whether he

paid $5 or $5M is not a concern of mine. But to call my comments an untruth

because I'm not privy to the exact amount is a fine point at best.

Jeffrey, you say Gerry writing that John Sampas sold Richard Marcel a drawing

is "not true". You state the "drawing is a sketch with no significant

meaning" as it is a "table napkin drawing". So what is it? Is it true he

sold a table napkin sketch? You're playing with semantics here. In my mind

a sketch and a drawing are the same thing!

Jefferey, you're playing loose with the facts and what is truth here. You're

in a position to know details most of the rest of us are not in a position to

know. Unless you're willing to share those details don't accuse others of us

who comment on what we believe to be fact as telling "untruths". Did Depp

buy the raincoat or not? If he did then saying I'm telling an "untruth"

because he didn't pay exactly $50,000 for it is a cheap shot. Did Marcel buy

a "napkin sketch" by JK or not? If he did then don't say Nicosia is telling

an "untruth" because he called it a drawing!

Jeffrey, you been very quiet regarding this entire situation for two weeks

now and I can respect that if that's the position you want to take. As a

dealer I can understand you wanting to keep quiet on certain transations etc.

But don't you dare accuse me of telling an "untruth" because you happen to

know the exact purchase price for the raincoat and I don't! If you know

details about the raincoat, correct me if I'm "incorrect", but I am offended

by you saying this is an "untruth". It makes it sound like I am intentionally

lying and you know damn well I am not!

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:49:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>

Subject: KICKS JOY DARKNESS

I want to thank B. Sorensen for his mention of Eric Andersen and

his contribution to the Kerouac CD. I think that track is one of the best

on the disc, but then perhaps I'm also biased, since I've known Eric for so

long: he and I were high school buddies and performed in a folk group. His

dad--an engineer--turned me on to writers like Dos Passos; I was already

into the Beats, as well as Kerouac's early literary god, Thomas Wolfe.

Later, before he dropped out of Hobart College to pursue a fulltime career

as a singer-songwriter, Eric used to ride freight trains up to see Cornell

University to me and we'd swap songs and poems.

I consider Eric to be one of America's great troubadours, though I

guess he's better known in Europe these days. His beat connection is made

clear in the title song from his album GHOSTS UPON THE ROAD (Gold Castle,

1989), in which he refers to Dean Moriarty and later says, "And ramblin

Jack was wild but Lowell Jack was first and I still shiver from the words .

. ." JK and the very early Elvis (in his Sun Records days) probably were

most responsible for setting Eric on his own "road."

His work dates back to the early 1960s; he was coming up in the

Village in New York when Dylan made his breakthrough. (If Dylan was a

musical Ginsberg, Eric was a musical Rimbaud.) His first wife, Debbie

Green, was reputed to have taught Joan Baez to play guitar. One night in

his loft there was a legendary jam session featuring Eric Clapton, Jimi

Hendrix, and John Hammond, Jr. (those were the days!). At one point The

Beatles' manager, Brian Epstein, was interested in Eric, but then Epstein

died. Other people--Judy Collins, Peter Paul & Mary, The Blues Project,

Linda Ronstadt, etc.--covered his songs successfully. His career has had

its ups and downs but he's never achieved the level of fame he deserves.

His best album, without a doubt, is BLUE RIVER (Columbia, 1972--still

available, on cd). GHOSTS UPON THE ROAD may rank second. STAGES: THE LOST

ALBUM (Columbia, 1991) was to have followed BLUE RIVER, but the master

tapes were lost for nearly twenty years! Another interesting disc is his

collaboration with Rick Danko of The Band and the Norwegian

singer-songwriter Jonas Fjeld, recorded in Europe where they toured

together a few years ago: DANKO/FJELD/ANDERSEN (RYKO, 1993).

Robert Elliot Fox

Associate Professor

Department of English

Southern Illinois University at Carbondale

Carbondale, Illinois 62901

618-453-6864

bfox@siu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:12:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: KICKS JOY DARKNESS (NBC - a related question to a post)

At 02:49 PM 5/14/97 -0500, Robert Elliot Fox wrote:

>Another interesting disc is his collaboration with Rick

>Danko of The Band and the Norwegian singer-songwriter

>Jonas Fjeld, recorded in Europe where they toured

>together a few years ago: DANKO/FJELD/ANDERSEN

>(RYKO, 1993).

I've heard through the grapevine that Danko was

recently arrested in Japan for receiving a package

of heroin in the mail, can anyone confirm this

rumour?

Thanx,

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:08:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different ....

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

In-Reply-To: <3379E209.458C@midusa.net>

an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

experience, having beat lit taught in a structured school situation would

be a disaster. though it would create more exposure, i think Beat stuff

would be better served for "Optional" assignments rather than the core

curriculum. i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

who knows,

Eric

On Wed, 14 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> since many seem to have shifted from the all-star wrestling vernacular

> to the Joan Baez visions of perfection, i have one to throw in the ring.

>

> does anyone feel that list members invidually or in some collective

> action maybe a movement you never know could have success in pushing

> more beat generation literature into high school curriculi across the

> America? is this a hopeless cause? seems it might slightly meet the

> 100 years concern meters. just a thought. i'm not certain at all where

> one would begin or end. teaching materials for high school level to

> supplement the beat writing would probably be helpful.

>

> hopeful in the Heart of Kansas

>

> david rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:13:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: waste of comp time Re: Chaput is Kaput!

In-Reply-To: <199705141823.LAA12073@sweden.it.earthlink.net>

Wait a sec, hold on now Gerry!

Are you insinuating that the moon ISNT made of green cheese?

awl be damned,

Eric

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 12:27 AM 5/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >

> > So they send on someone like Chaput instead, who has nothing to lose.

> >> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

> >

> >what evidence is there for this claim. similar claims have been made in

> >others letters. i could check the archives i suppose. my preference

> >would obviously be a negotiated settlement, but i don't understand

> >phrases like this which seem to pop up in your letters quite often. it

> >reflects something of what Hofstadter called the Paranoid Style.

> >Perhaps i'm incorrect, but to this point i've seen no data provided in

> >any of your arguments to support such claims. i hope that the kerouac

> >collection is not hanging on such a theory of conspiracy given the

> >weakness of the form of argumentation within the field of judicial

> >reasoning.

> >

> >just wondering in kansas .... :)

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >

> >

> Dave, May 14, 1997

>

> What I meant is this. Stephen Hawking is arguing with another

> astrophysicist. The other astrophysicist suddenly says, "The moon is made

> of green cheese." The other astrophysicist is either marked as loony or

> forever loses his credibility in the astrophysics community.

> However, suppose Hawking is talking with Chaput, and Chaput says,

> "The moon is made of green cheese."

> Chaput doesn't lose his professional credibility, because he has

> none in astrophysics.

> My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

> doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

> good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility. She doesn't dare do

> that, and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for

> Sampas).

> Chaput says he "sees Sampas around." Every argument he's brought

> against me in the past two weeks has already been used either by Sampas

> himself, his lawyers, or Ann Charters over the past three years. I feel

> like I'm replaying an old, old chess game with him. Now how does Chaput

> know all this stuff? The only people who remember the moves of the game

> that exactly are the ones who played it.

> You may consider that circumstantial evidence, but people have been

> sent to the gallows on circumstantial evidence, if it's strong enough.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:17:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: something completely different ....

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970514170227.21198B-100000@crystal.palace.net>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Robert H. Sapp wrote:

> i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

> pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

> teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

> discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

Totally exactly. Beat stuff is still fresh -- it's still more relevant than

older lit in certain ways for certain things, and I think teaching it in

schools takes out the bite and maybe even misses the point. Personally I'd

rather see an end to schools. Kids could learn more from an uninhibited

Internet connection than they could thru obsolete teaching methods anyway.

Now _that_ would be a Beat crusade I could get into.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:27:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Comments: To: rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET

Eric,

Good point, but I don't think an early exposure to the Beats is going to

turn young students off. Some students are going to love it and others

will read it like they read the back of a cereal box and say, "Yeah, so

what?" I don't think having OTR suggested by a trusted friend

guarantees the reader will like it either. I've suggested Beat pieces

to friends and they come back with, "While I like it, it just didn't do

anything for me." I for one would have loved being introduced to Beat

Gen writers as a HS student. Now that I think about it, maybe you're

onto something with the "Optional assignment" route. But then again my

opinions on this subject were formed because I had instructors that took

an active part in my education and opened my mind (and left it open)

rather than fill it with "strict nonsense" and blather.

Crunching numbers when I'd rather be writing.

-Mark

MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>>> "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET> 05/14/97 04:08pm >>>

an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

experience, having beat lit taught in a structured school situation

would

be a disaster. though it would create more exposure, i think Beat stuff

would be better served for "Optional" assignments rather than the core

curriculum. i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

who knows,

Eric

On Wed, 14 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> since many seem to have shifted from the all-star wrestling vernacular

> to the Joan Baez visions of perfection, i have one to throw in the

ring.

>

> does anyone feel that list members invidually or in some collective

> action maybe a movement you never know could have success in pushing

> more beat generation literature into high school curriculi across the

> America? is this a hopeless cause? seems it might slightly meet the

> 100 years concern meters. just a thought. i'm not certain at all

where

> one would begin or end. teaching materials for high school level to

> supplement the beat writing would probably be helpful.

>

> hopeful in the Heart of Kansas

>

> david rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:07:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

At 12:19 PM 5/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>>> Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU> 05/14/97 11:03am >>>

> He would even at his age pack a weighty punch in my face if I

>suggested he work off xerox copies. He laughed himself stupid at the

>idea

>that scholars could work off scanned copies on the Web. If you care

>about

>the exactitudes of textual scholarship (not all that many do, including

>most

>of this list, I'm sure) then only the originals would do.

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

> -----

>

>**Nick,

>

>Quick question for you. How are the "exactitudes of textual

>scholarship" diminished by working off copies (xerox or the Web)? Not

>trying to be a smart-ass, just don't understand.

>

>Thanks,

>

>-Mark

>MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

Mark, May 14, 1997

I don't doubt Nick can answer for himself, there are certainly a

variety of reasons, but let me just offer the preeminent one in my mind:

Copies are made by human beings using technology. Human beings are

fallible. The guy making the copies just broke up with his girl or has a

stomach ache or just flunked his exams and is so preoccupied he forgets to

copy 20 pages out of the middle somewhere. Or the copy machine is feeding

on a slant and cuts off the end words of the bottom two lines of each page.

Chaput claimed this was far-fetched, but in my experience it's more

the rule than the exception.

We today have hundreds of different versions of each of

Shakespeare's plays. At least one of the reasons for this is that each guy

that copied them put in and left out different things. AND, OF COURSE, WE

DON'T HAVE SHAKESPEARE'S ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS TO GO BACK AND CHECK WITH.

(No, I'm not suggesting John Sampas sold those off too.)

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:51:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Krackowack Jack

In a message dated 97-05-14 14:28:54 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

<< My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility. She doesn't dare do

that, and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for

Sampas). >>

I don't think that Ann Charters is working for John Sampas as a maid anymore.

I believe she is working at a college, maybe as a janitor.

hee hee hee

Please, let's stop saying who is working for Sampas all the time. Ann

Charters wrote the first biography of Kerouac and I don't think that Sampas

hired her at that time. She had been hired by Sampas to edit the Kerouac

Letters book (volume 2 as well). The Letters books don't state - Written by

Ann Charters, they say Edited by Ann Charters. Editors edit. I don't

believe she engages in many social get-togethers or cocktail hours with John

Sampas. She was, and may still be, teaching at a college. She is a Professor,

writer, etc. I don't think her resume says "Work for Sampas".

As far as who should be talking to us on the BEAT L list, the answer is

whoever wants to. Mr. Nicosia, I'm sorry but it's not up to you to demand

that Ann, or John Sampas use this venue to air their positions. The fact that

you have made yourself available is fine, but it is your own decision.

As far as Phil Chaput is concerned, I know him and he's a nice guy. His

interest in Kerouac is personal. His father was a good friend of Kerouac's.

He is voicing his own opinions here. If someone disagrees with him, please

disagree with the point. Whether he is or is not a Sampas crony is irrelevant

to the argument. I don't think that Phil has ever represented himself as a

Sampas spokesman and I think the reason is because he is not. And just

because Phil did buy me a beer once (thanks Phil), please don't label me as a

Phil crony.

As far as Lowell Celebrates Kerouac committee is concerned, who they invite

is up to them. [I was on the committe for 1 year.] The committee was set up

primarily to help establish the Kerouac Commemorative in Lowell. Now they

have yearly events in October to celebrate Kerouac. There is no requirement

to invite anybody. Cost of the speaker, theme of the event, determines who

gets invited. Themes have included Kerouac and Sports, International Kerouac,

Kerouac's Spirituality etc. So far, they have not had Kerouac and the Estate

War as a theme. If they do, maybe then they could consider inviting Gerry.

Does John Sampas have some influence there? Yes, and he has also provided the

committee with photos for posters and money. Does he control it? No.

And while I personally think it was wrong not to invite Jan to a Lowell

event, I have to be blunt here-- I don't feel that there was a requirement to

invite Gerry Nicosia. Gerry always claims that both he and Jan have a right

to be included in certain events. That it was a package deal that both He and

Jan get invited. I don't think it's up to him to demand that they be invited

to particular events. I don't remember being invited to quite a few events

that I thought I should be part of. So it goes.

Take life easy, and life becomes easier

enjoy, Attila

PS: Gerry - One thing that you and I are in total agreement with (isn't that

incredible) is that the old growth forest in the Headwaters should not be cut

down. I was just told by one of the forestors who works for Pacific Lumber,

that clear cutting is ecologically more sound then select cut.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:02:19 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Tom Clark

Hello Dave,

The Tom Clark benefit mystery has been solved. I talked with him at

length about the benefit, and when he looked into it he came up with

another (REAL) Tom Clark. Apparently an "Old Beat" dying with AIDS.

We were both confused on the "Beat" thing and surprised to find another

T.C. out there writing under that name. With medical bills

soring the upward it's good to see benefits for people who can't afford

the battle. I had to build the front part of a splint from

hardware store PVC for my kids broken shin because the insurance com-

pany wouldn't cover that part of the splint-and that's where the break

happened! The accident took place last week-they told me to give him

Tylenol; pretty medieval...oh well, fuck 'em.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:59:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

At 04:27 PM 5/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Eric,

>Good point, but I don't think an early exposure to the Beats is going to

>turn young students off. Some students are going to love it and others

>will read it like they read the back of a cereal box and say, "Yeah, so

>what?" I don't think having OTR suggested by a trusted friend

>guarantees the reader will like it either. I've suggested Beat pieces

>to friends and they come back with, "While I like it, it just didn't do

>anything for me." I for one would have loved being introduced to Beat

>Gen writers as a HS student. Now that I think about it, maybe you're

>onto something with the "Optional assignment" route. But then again my

>opinions on this subject were formed because I had instructors that took

>an active part in my education and opened my mind (and left it open)

>rather than fill it with "strict nonsense" and blather.

>

>Crunching numbers when I'd rather be writing.

>-Mark

>

>MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>

>>>> "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET> 05/14/97 04:08pm >>>

>an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

>idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

>for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

>experience, having beat lit taught in a structured school situation

>would

>be a disaster. though it would create more exposure, i think Beat stuff

>would be better served for "Optional" assignments rather than the core

>curriculum. i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

>pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

>teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

>discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

>

>who knows,

>Eric

>

>On Wed, 14 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

>

>> since many seem to have shifted from the all-star wrestling vernacular

>> to the Joan Baez visions of perfection, i have one to throw in the

>ring.

>>

>> does anyone feel that list members invidually or in some collective

>> action maybe a movement you never know could have success in pushing

>> more beat generation literature into high school curriculi across the

>> America? is this a hopeless cause? seems it might slightly meet the

>> 100 years concern meters. just a thought. i'm not certain at all

>where

>> one would begin or end. teaching materials for high school level to

>> supplement the beat writing would probably be helpful.

>>

>> hopeful in the Heart of Kansas

>>

>> david rhaesa

>>

>

>

you guys all make sound observations, and I have to say, I agree with most,

if not all. (sounds like I'm running for public office) anyway, yeah,

having someone "turn you on" like the way it happened for me, is life

changing at the very least, however, what changed my life most was my great

luck to have teachers in HIGH SCHOOL that exposed me to great lit and

poetry. THAT IS WHAT CHANGED MY LIFE! meeting the beats/kerouac in my mid

20's just drove the shit home for me and sent me further down a path it

seemed I was already on. I think that teaching OTR could be of great value

not just as lit, but to also view it in terms of the impact it had on

national and global culture at the time of its publication on thru to the

present as witnessed here on this list and elsewhere. doubt very seriously

that little else might make it past the mind cops mental meat grinder

because of direct connect to drugs and sex. OTR has reference to the same,

however, not quite as bold, and in light of everything that has come down

the pike since, pretty damned lightweight if you ask me, but then I'm just a

silly romantic ya know? by the by, I have in my little circle of things

here in L.A. met quite a few younger folks (high school age) that consume it

all and we older types do all that we can to educate them as well as they

educate us. this is most desirable of all.

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:06:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

At 11:57 AM 5/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>You can't read them properly - lots of the annotations are pencilled in, and

>they don't photocopy or scan that well - you can see what might have been

>erased, date the paper, that type of thing. That's what I'm told anyhow.

>Obviously though only bona-fide scholars are allowed to do this - originals

>reatc badly to light, especially neon, and the paper can crumble. For the

>likes of you and me, it would be fine. But it's a great deal of interest ot

>scholars, especially when dealing with writers who had an unusual style, to

>try and piece together the writing process - how each draft changed, how

>those changes were made etc. The 'original' Joyce Ulysses was significantly

>different from the one first published. My guess would be that drafts of

>many of JK's books read very differently. IF there's a suggestion being made

>(I'm not quite sure that there is) that the plan is to let scholars look at

>copies while the originals are sold off for big bucks, that would be

>unfortunate.

>

>BTW, one of the big problems scholars see with computers is that all those

>early drafts of the great works of the future will be lost as all the

>drafting is done on screen. So take it carefully with that delete key, folks

>

>Nick

>

>>

>>

>>>>> Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU> 05/14/97 11:03am >>>

>> He would even at his age pack a weighty punch in my face if I

>>suggested he work off xerox copies. He laughed himself stupid at the

>>idea

>>that scholars could work off scanned copies on the Web. If you care

>>about

>>the exactitudes of textual scholarship (not all that many do, including

>>most

>>of this list, I'm sure) then only the originals would do.

>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>----------

>>

>>**Nick,

>>

>>Quick question for you. How are the "exactitudes of textual

>>scholarship" diminished by working off copies (xerox or the Web)? Not

>>trying to be a smart-ass, just don't understand.

>>

>>Thanks,

>>

>>-Mark

>>MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>>

>>

>**************************************************************************

>*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

>It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

>

>Nick Weir-Williams

>Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

>President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

>List Manager, chipub listserv

>

>ph: 847 491 8114

>fax: 847 491 8150

>

I imagine as well, if some fool with a grudge, or just for kicks actually,

could access/hack the material and possibly alter it. stranger things have

happened.

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:38:35 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

WE

> DON'T HAVE SHAKESPEARE'S ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS TO GO BACK AND CHECK WITH.

> (No, I'm not suggesting John Sampas sold those off too.)

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

Now that is funny .... :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:46:13 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

Zach,

I fail to see how the buccolic Wisconsin bashes you describe (which

sound great to me) are fundamentally different than the Human Be-In.

Everything is the same. Everything is different.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:59:18 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

Jerry,

We agree on alot. If the will is forged--let Nicosia have it. But if

it isn't, then John Sampas can do anything he wants with it--burn it if

that's his thing. The courts will decide and no Beat-L vote will make

any damn difference.

As I said before, I would prefer that the stuff is available. But

despite having spent a long time in the academy studying lit crit, I am

not convinced that the world will be a whole lot poorer without a lot of

textual criticsm resulting from scholarly perusal of these things. The

primary works are what are important, and they are there. I never knew

Jan, but do you really think that all that mattered to her was seeing

that the archive was preserved? For her this had to be about paternity,

about her very justified anger about the way Jack and his family had

treated her. This is not a scholarly war. It is a battle for blood and

guts. I just don't see Gerry and the ghost of Jan standing tall only

for academic rights to inquire into the Kerouac ouvre. There is a lot

more to it than that and that is why it gets so damn nasty on both

sides. 100 years from now the work will be there. The scholarship will

be boring 100 year old stuff. People will rediscover the work based on

the principle texts. Do you think alot about what happened to Keat's

overcoat (if there was one)? Would it matter if some actor in London

had bought it rather than it being in the British Museum?

> Jan Kerouac did go away. Gerry Nicosia has not.

>

> It is the Collection that is important. Everything else is a side issue.

>

> Jerry Cimino

> Fog City

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:27:18 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Overview, Part One

Julie,

Thanks much for this note of sanity. I also appreciated Jeffery

Weinberg's reasoned, balanced view. I think that most Beat-L members

have been very patient with this. We realize it is important. We also

know that the courts are going to solve it and we are not.

I am ready to cast my one vote to ask these guys to all just take their

self serving posts elsewhere. Go outside the bar and slug it out. Let's

talk about Jack Kerouac, or Jack's texts. All these guys might have

something to add when they get trough libelling each other.

J Stauffer (I might have a Master's Degree too, watch out!)

Julie Hulvey wrote:. .

> So I should worry about these poor Kerouac scholars who are either scratching

> each others eyes out or stabbing each other in the back, or else busy

> changing our little corner of cyberspace into a weeks-long info-mercial ?

>

> It is to laugh!

>

> Julie (no scholar - don't bother checking)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:34:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila the Hun

Hey, Attila! May 14, 1997

What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

Time for guy number three to step up? (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

Didn't you guys ever read the rules of fair fightin'? One against

one, and at least a week to recuperate. That was the rule in my old

neighborhood.

Nick the Greek

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:34:32 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >

> >

> Dave, May 14, 1997

>

> What I meant is this. Stephen Hawking is arguing with another

> astrophysicist. The other astrophysicist suddenly says, "The moon is made of

green cheese." The other astrophysicist is either marked as loony or forever

loses his credibility in the astrophysics community.

> However, suppose Hawking is talking with Chaput, and Chaput says, "The

moon is made of green cheese."

> Chaput doesn't lose his professional credibility, because he has none

in astrophysics.

it seems that Hawking is fairly good at recognizing different types of

rhetorical explanations are necessary for varying audiences. my hunch

is that he could provide a fairly devestating yet kind explanation for

why the phrase "the moon is made of Green Cheese" is meaningless

scientifically even though it might have meaning in other contexts.

> My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility. She doesn't dare do that,

and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for Sampas).

There you go again. The fact that she would not be able to make

academically silly arguments does not necessarily provide the basis for

why Ms. Charters does not choose to participate in this listserv.

Moreover, the fact that she "works" for Sampas does not necessarily

determine her choices concerning which listservs she participates in (or

for what she has for breakfast for that matter). once again, you're

jumping from point A to point Q in a conspiratorial mode. Frankly, i

don't understand WHY you feel a need to incorporate these conspiratorial

arguments into your discourse. it seems that your arguments are far

more informative and persuasive if such methods could be omitted. it

doesn't take a Stephen Hawking to recognize unsupported conspiracy

charges.

> Chaput says he "sees Sampas around." Every argument he's brought

against me in the past two weeks has already been used either by Sampas

himself, his lawyers, or Ann Charters over the past three years. I feel like

I'm replaying an old, old chess game with him. Now how does Chaput know all

this stuff? The only people who remember the moves of the game that exactly

are the ones who played it.

it isn't a chess game. it is a different conversation b/c of who we the

audience are (folks who've not been privvy to previous wrestling

bouts). i don't understand, again, the frustration at facing perennial

questions concerning your position.

> You may consider that circumstantial evidence, but people have been

sent to the gallows on circumstantial evidence, if it's strong enough.

i doubt that you're in your wildest fantasies wishing the gallows for

Sampas. i want to believe that you are interested rather in preserving

Kerouac archives as you've said. the consistent "tossing in" of these

types of phrases makes it much easier for folks to question

movitations.

circumstantial evidence of conspiracy is a very very very hard

argumentative road to traverse.

i don't think, and perhaps i'm missing something here, that the

conspiratorial tones and suggestions in many of your messages are at all

intrinsic to your support of retaining Kerouac's arvhives at the NYPL or

elsewhere. what do these conspiratorial asides do for your position but

alienate readers?

i agree with you by the way, that humans are as a rule atrocious

photocopiers. don't know why.

david rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:13:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila the Hun

At 07:34 PM 5/14/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey, Attila! May 14, 1997

>

> What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

>Time for guy number three to step up? (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

>either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

-I don't understand why you think you are untouchable. Your textual analysis

in the book is not "sophomoric". But if it was, that is an issue that would

be taken up by scholars who would come up with a thesis and discourse on why

it would be described as such. Am I sophmoric because I am a first year

Graduate student in American Studies with a concentration in the American

Renaissance of the nineteenth century? I then could not ever take issue with

your work should I find a reason to without fear of violent reprisal? Is

that not the nature of scholarship? Surely your work on Vietnam vets had

improved upon someone else's work that could not be researched at the time

of your studies. I have one published thesis in a scholarly journal that I

am proud of but if one was to take issue with it I wouldn't be offended. I

would be interested though in what they had to say. Geez...Paul MAHER JR.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:28:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

<< an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

>idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

>for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

>experience, >>

At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu. I also heard her

translating Reality Sandwiches. By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

famous in France than in America.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:40:53 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

>

> << an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

> >idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

> >for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

> >experience, >>

>

> At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

> Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu. I also heard her

> translating Reality Sandwiches. By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

> Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

> say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

> I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

> of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

> famous in France than in America.

> Pam Plymell

as usual the Cherry Valley connection provides wonderful insights.

i recall a student at Stuyvesant who told me her introduction to

literature that mattered to her was Kafka. she was so far ahead of me

and my kansas-to kill a mockinbird education. she went on to

comparative lit at Stanford. used to talk long distance about

shakespeare papers over the phone. she seems to have handled it

reasonably well. writes regularly for the New Republic. this week's

piece on the Philadelphia volunteer talkathon was priceless in my

opinion.

my experience with working with high school students in the summers over

the years at kansas, baylor, dartmouth, michigan, iowa, illinois state,

fort hays state (and some i've probably lost to the memory banks) is

that they are way under-rated in their ability to "handle" materials.

david rhaesa

is charles still on-the-road?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:47:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

>...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

>...

amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo) shouldn't be

forced but if the palate is ready then i would think this literature,

which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

danger. As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

protection they need.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:40:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In-Reply-To: <337A873C.37D1@sunflower.com>

I wholeheartedly agree with Patricia. I'm a college senior, so high

school wasn't that long ago, and I really resent that the

content of many conservative high school English classes leads one to

believe that nothing worthwhile was written after the Catcher in the Rye.

While I think that it is important for students to read Dostoevsky and

Kafka and Hemingway and the classics, it is equally important to introduce

them to more modern/post-modern/whatever authors who are quite likely

writing in a manner that is more directly applicable to their lives. I

think it would be great if a high school included Coupland's Generation X

in it's curriculum (although I do think it's one of the worst books ever

written); the implications of it's publication affect highschoolers in a

way that War and Peace cannot. Part of the problem with high school (and

i speak only from my experience and that of friends, I'm sure not all

schools are like this) is that it does not change with technological or

intellectual progress. High school students today are, to a large extent,

learning the same thing their parents learned forty years ago and in the

same manner they learned it. At least no one is ducking and covering

anymore...The point of all of this long winded babbling (long day--sorry)

is that hell yes the beats should be taught in school, if for no other

reason than students will read it. I think the attention of the average

student, staring out the window, bored to tears by emily Dickinson's

prattling, might be piqued by someone like Allen Ginsberg (or perhaps by

Gregory Corso and his ode to Dickinson!) Isn't the point to educate, to

encourage students to read and learn and expand their horizons? Why do

schools manipulate this to mean educate a little, encourage students to

read only certain books and learn only certain things, expand their

horizons to a certain, approved level? I love patricia's comment that

"protection from thought and understanong is not a protection they

need"--it should be every teachers creed!!

Tracy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> >...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> >...

> amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

> hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

> ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo) shouldn't be

> forced but if the palate is ready then i would think this literature,

> which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

> allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

> danger. As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

> generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

> incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

> protection they need.

> p

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:42:15 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> >...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> >...

> amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

> hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

> ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo) shouldn't be

> forced but if the palate is ready then i would think this literature,

> which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

> allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

> danger. As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

> generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

> incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

> protection they need.

> p

Pam, Patricia, David,

You're all right. Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

should have a chance at it. I think of all the Beats, JK would be

wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

horrify the school boards. "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

forgetting something is a good example. If they are ready to read any

serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

myself at all, that was fairly young.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:53:01 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: lightly press on closed eyelids - see colors.

=

>> who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

>>international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

monitor doesn't track all us to our source

or we'll have to initiate them see below.

In our day, we

paranoid and relaxed

because

1) Vietnam war,

&) job-market going post-industrial and ?) ecology shudders

We awoke

the seriousness of life overwhelmed

personal issues ..now awash in

distractions?

Just lightly press on closed eyelids and see colors.

Mike

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:07:14 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Triumph of the Will

> >>

> >>John Mitchell, responding to Rinaldo

> >Leni Riefenstahl is filming yr performance mates....

>

> rinaldo--isn't the title something like Triumph of the Quills (Swills?

> Pills? Last Wills and Testaments? //John M.

Will you will or will you won't you

be my baby?

We don't need no stinking Wills.

If Hitler's Leni is no longer available we might enlist Sergio Leone, I

see a redo of the opening of Once Upon A Time in the West--ten minutes

of a lone cowboy waiting in an empty trail station for the Sampas gang

to show up.

Thanks John for a great laugh.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:51:30 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: something completely different

Bravo Pam, Pat, James & all,

To deny a kid access to literature is criminal. When I was a kid

the public library was a nightmare that discouraged kids who were

curious. When they sent me to the school shrink-and later, to still-

another shrink for reading Camus at the age of 14; I knew that my

life was over in our little town. I ran away at 15, and never looked

back. I lived in dollar-a-night-flops in downtown Mpls. I recieved

the best education that money could buy, at Oudal's Old & Rare Book

Shop. The owner, Justin, was a kindhearted man who'd let me take books

home to read and return. At the time, I was very much into the French

writers. I started reading the books from A to Z/or from Apollinaire

to Zola. My very first book that I wrote: TRIP, was published in France.

That was over twenty years ago. After having some bad run-in

situations with the local schools, I now teach my boys at home. They

are tested each year through a program developed by Princton University,

and I am happy to report that they finish in the top 90%

nationally. Right now, we are studying the Greeks. The boys are 12 and

13 yrs. old.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:09:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: KSB <ksbedit@SHORE.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

At 09:42 PM 5/14/97 -0700, James Stauffer wrote:

>You're all right. Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

>should have a chance at it. I think of all the Beats, JK would be

>wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

>horrify the school boards. "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

>forgetting something is a good example. If they are ready to read any

>serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

>myself at all, that was fairly young.

Just to pipe in here....

I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

"New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

of "October in Railroad Earth."

This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. So,

just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac! Who'd a thunk it, eh?

Best,

Kathleen

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:35:34 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>

Subject: Solomon's Mishaps

Dear members of BEAT-L,

Just when you thought it was going to be another dreary day on the

Beat-Litigation list, here is a posting with reference to literary works

as literary works, and not objects to be fought over...

I haven't seen much talk about Carl Solomon on the list, so maybe people

don't consider him much of a beat. Or maybe people haven't read much of his

work. I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. Hope

you enjoy them and that they may spark some debate:

PEOPLE OF THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES

Wild, crazy bouncing around. "Dig everything", says Kerouac. They are

reading "The Book of Changes." What changes can possibly occur after those

I have already known, I wonder. William Carlos Williams' letter letter

comes to PSH, "Life is not over in a day." This seems bullshit to me. My

life is over. Much squawking, much yawking. Apparently it's not over.

Doctors, doctors, patients, patients. Letters from poets, writing to poets.

Confused conglomerations of visitors from various phases of my life.

Confused rehabilitation courses, this, that, reading at the Metro, meeting

B.H. He is rehabilitated. He helped me when I escaped. World collapsing a

dozen times over and being rebuilt. Babies born, deaths in the family.

"Philosophy of a Lunatic-Wit, Wisdom, And Folly" bought at the Gotham Book

Mart. For three dollars or so and change. Take it seriously and you have

entrance to the bliss and sorrow of the mentally ill. Don't go there any

more. No more dangerous esoterica. This reading thing can be extremely

bad. Read a story in a newspaper recently about a boy in the west who

bought and read Camus' "L'Etranger," then shot somebody. Hadn't Leopold and

Loeb been reading Nitszche? How many crimes have been indirectly caused by

writers unknown to the reader? Wasn't Oswald reading "The Militant"? Wasn't

the man arrested for attempting to blow up the Russian Embassy probably a

reader of some right-wing paper? The pen is mightier than the sword. More

often than not it directs the sword. Writing entails grave responsibilities.

Read "The Times" and avoid folly. Read "The Post" and meet a nice, Jewish

girl looking for a husband. Read "The News" and go out to the ball-park or

go fishing. Read "The Daily Worker" and go underground. Read the "Enquirer"

for laughs. Read the "East Village Other" and be hip and psychedelic. Read

Braille and speak hesitantly but correctly. Read "War and Peace" and enter

another era. Read the "Geographic" and bask under a tropical sun. Read

Proust when you are in jail and have plenty of time. What are you reading

lately? This question probes exactly into one's present frame of mind. The

book makes the mood and the mood makes the book. Libraries win or lose

elections. Does it help the identity problem to realize that the same man

may read "Candy" one week and the Bible the next, and may be the one type

of reader the one week and the other the next. What about "My Secret Life"

by Mao-Tze Tung?

REPORT FROM THE BRONX

[...]

Obscenity has become the only mode of expression pretty nearly. This is not

freedom of speech, it is the triumph of subnormality over sex. What can we

expect from social forces? Almost anything. A writer commits suicide almost

every day. Burroughs is always leaving for London, Ginsberg is always in

California, Kerouac is always in Florida. The literari are always on the

move and it is useless to attempt to keep up with them. The only thing to

do seems to be to keep gazing sidelong at TV. The TV is more effective than

the analyst. I have tried both, and have concluded that what we want is

FACTS. Not subjective fantasy or interpersonal gibberish, but the cold hard

objective facts that exist apart from psychotic aberration.

CONFUSED, GUTTERAL MUMBLING OF A MAN WHO HAS READ TOO MUCH

Kafka,

Strindberg,

Jack London,

Gogol,

Mike Gold,

Edward Everett Hale,

Heywood Broun,

Westbrook Pegler,

Jacques Vache,

Henry Miller,

Stalin,

Mao-Tze Tung,

Hitler,

Mussolini,

William Buckley,

Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

These and many,many more,

And what have I gained in the way of everlasting wisdom?

Nothing.

Literature has nothing more to offer one than the many blank faces one

meets on the subway..... it is of course only a way of klling time or a

subject for conversation. Is this giving away the game?

But cannot this be said about anything......baseball just so many

batted balls? Where is what I am looking for? And is there anything I am

looking for?

Let us say: I read to keep my hands occupied......to keep from

masturbating.I am possessed of language and have nothing to say.

Why not collect postage stamps, dirty jokes, or puns?

Drinking endless cups of coffee or entering a pie-eating contest makes

about as much sense.

I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

BON MOT

If you lose contact with the Zeitgeist, never fear. You may still have

contact with the poltergeist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last one is probably my favourite. But generally I find the wit

displayed here appealing, if somewhat desperate. The rambling attempts of a

man trying to come to terms with the fact that the world perceives him as a

lunatic, whereas he perceives the world as lunatic. I'm interested in the

slippery valences of writing and writers in Solomon's texts. It's as if he

is personally offended by the fact that writers put pen on page, and yet do

not communicate anything of wisdom and worth. Is this just an early

statement of a well-knowm postmodern symptom, or a reflection of Solomon's

own low self-esteem - or IS he so out of contact with the sixties polter-

sorry Zeitgeist as he makes out to be..?

Regards,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:28:07 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

KSB wrote:

>

> At 09:42 PM 5/14/97 -0700, James Stauffer wrote:

>

> >You're all right. Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

> >should have a chance at it. I think of all the Beats, JK would be

> >wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

> >horrify the school boards. "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

> >forgetting something is a good example. If they are ready to read any

> >serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

> >myself at all, that was fairly young.

>

> Just to pipe in here....

> I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

> of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

> "New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

> of "October in Railroad Earth."

>

> This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. So,

> just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

> over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac! Who'd a thunk it, eh?

>

> Best,

> Kathleen

What kind of teaching materials were provided concerning Kerouac and

Railroad earth to assist in instruction? That may not be something

handy. just a sense of the kinds of things would be helpful. it seems

one of the troubles with encouraging new literature sources is that

teachers who aren't familiar and don't have available background

material aren't comfortable using them.

What is the name of the Reader? Perhaps it is one that could be

encouraged to local schools .... Anything more on this might be useful.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:51:58 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Something completely different #2

i enjoyed reading the varied posts from varied voices on the lists. it

seems that the first thread (something #1) is partially devoted to

whether students can handle the material, whether high schools should be

burned and whatnot. this seems a relevant area to question in the

process of determining whether to work for "incorporation" (rather than

pushing) beat litearture into the high school curriculum.

so far, the suggestions of "railroad earth" and "on the road" have been

mentioned. there are some who feel that other materials might not make

it by the school boards. that is probably a concern. it is more likely

that one would be working towards the textbook editors at first.

so I'm asking a second kind of question in "something completely

different #2". Assuming, that we did want to put forth some effort in

this direction, what besides "Railroad Earth" would be recommended

suggestions to encourage being excerpted into Survey Type Readers of

American Literature to provide a "taste" of this rich material.

i seem to agree that secondary literature courses beyond the initial

survey should be highly optional. Besides ON ROUTE, what beat materials

seem possible to get on optional readings lists. This question probably

involves considering community standards a bit more. Is Kerouac the

only possible introduction the students could get their hands on in the

classroom? It seems that Burroughs' material unless excerpted into a

Burroughs' reader for this purpose would be nearly impossible to get

past the moral guard. i'd be interested in others opinions on what the

best types in each of these categories might be.

i appreciate y'alls response. this is not an attempt to jump off the

bridge at Big Sur concerning the "Something #1" thread. I'll take some

time over the next day and begin to think more actively about all the

comments and suggestions made and continue to post to that thread as

well. i am only attempting to provide two different threads of focus on

this matter.

david rhaesa

salina kansas

not sure if i'm persona non-grata at the high school anymore or not.

told the principal he was running a prison and not a school (a result of

a bit of mania and having read too much Ivan Illich on education; and

because it was TRUE). i think i'm accepted in certain parts of the

building to do some local investigation.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:58:05 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

>Zach,

>

>I fail to see how the buccolic Wisconsin bashes you describe (which

>sound great to me) are fundamentally different than the Human Be-In.

>

>Everything is the same. Everything is different.

>

>J Stauffer

>

>

in italy the lotto game is a must!

BARI 57 27 05 30 42

CAGLIARI 52 19 18 85 73

FIRENZE 52 23 90 51 73

GENOVA 85 43 71 48 22

MILANO 16 55 57 10 12

NAPOLI 80 06 71 78 26

PALERMO 53 19 87 44 55

ROMA 31 51 54 81 08

TORINO 46 86 37 18 02

VENEZIA 79 86 49 73 88

yrs beet

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:08:04 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Solomon's Mishaps

Comments: To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

B. Sorensen wrote:

>

> Dear members of BEAT-L,

>

> Just when you thought it was going to be another dreary day on the

> Beat-Litigation list, here is a posting with reference to literary works

> as literary works, and not objects to be fought over...

>

> I haven't seen much talk about Carl Solomon on the list, so maybe people

> don't consider him much of a beat. Or maybe people haven't read much of his

> work. I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

> that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. Hope

> you enjoy them and that they may spark some debate:

>

> PEOPLE OF THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES

>

> Wild, crazy bouncing around. "Dig everything", says Kerouac. They are

> reading "The Book of Changes." What changes can possibly occur after those

> I have already known, I wonder. William Carlos Williams' letter letter

> comes to PSH, "Life is not over in a day." This seems bullshit to me. My

> life is over. Much squawking, much yawking. Apparently it's not over.

> Doctors, doctors, patients, patients. Letters from poets, writing to poets.

> Confused conglomerations of visitors from various phases of my life.

> Confused rehabilitation courses, this, that, reading at the Metro, meeting

> B.H. He is rehabilitated. He helped me when I escaped. World collapsing a

> dozen times over and being rebuilt. Babies born, deaths in the family.

> "Philosophy of a Lunatic-Wit, Wisdom, And Folly" bought at the Gotham Book

> Mart. For three dollars or so and change. Take it seriously and you have

> entrance to the bliss and sorrow of the mentally ill. Don't go there any

> more. No more dangerous esoterica. This reading thing can be extremely

> bad. Read a story in a newspaper recently about a boy in the west who

> bought and read Camus' "L'Etranger," then shot somebody. Hadn't Leopold and

> Loeb been reading Nitszche? How many crimes have been indirectly caused by

> writers unknown to the reader? Wasn't Oswald reading "The Militant"? Wasn't

> the man arrested for attempting to blow up the Russian Embassy probably a

> reader of some right-wing paper? The pen is mightier than the sword. More

> often than not it directs the sword. Writing entails grave responsibilities.

> Read "The Times" and avoid folly. Read "The Post" and meet a nice, Jewish

> girl looking for a husband. Read "The News" and go out to the ball-park or

> go fishing. Read "The Daily Worker" and go underground. Read the "Enquirer"

> for laughs. Read the "East Village Other" and be hip and psychedelic. Read

> Braille and speak hesitantly but correctly. Read "War and Peace" and enter

> another era. Read the "Geographic" and bask under a tropical sun. Read

> Proust when you are in jail and have plenty of time. What are you reading

> lately? This question probes exactly into one's present frame of mind. The

> book makes the mood and the mood makes the book. Libraries win or lose

> elections. Does it help the identity problem to realize that the same man

> may read "Candy" one week and the Bible the next, and may be the one type

> of reader the one week and the other the next. What about "My Secret Life"

> by Mao-Tze Tung?

>

> REPORT FROM THE BRONX

>

> [...]

>

> Obscenity has become the only mode of expression pretty nearly. This is not

> freedom of speech, it is the triumph of subnormality over sex. What can we

> expect from social forces? Almost anything. A writer commits suicide almost

> every day. Burroughs is always leaving for London, Ginsberg is always in

> California, Kerouac is always in Florida. The literari are always on the

> move and it is useless to attempt to keep up with them. The only thing to

> do seems to be to keep gazing sidelong at TV. The TV is more effective than

> the analyst. I have tried both, and have concluded that what we want is

> FACTS. Not subjective fantasy or interpersonal gibberish, but the cold hard

> objective facts that exist apart from psychotic aberration.

>

> CONFUSED, GUTTERAL MUMBLING OF A MAN WHO HAS READ TOO MUCH

>

> Kafka,

> Strindberg,

> Jack London,

> Gogol,

> Mike Gold,

> Edward Everett Hale,

> Heywood Broun,

> Westbrook Pegler,

> Jacques Vache,

> Henry Miller,

> Stalin,

> Mao-Tze Tung,

> Hitler,

> Mussolini,

> William Buckley,

> Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

> These and many,many more,

>

> And what have I gained in the way of everlasting wisdom?

> Nothing.

> Literature has nothing more to offer one than the many blank faces one

> meets on the subway..... it is of course only a way of klling time or a

> subject for conversation. Is this giving away the game?

> But cannot this be said about anything......baseball just so many

> batted balls? Where is what I am looking for? And is there anything I am

> looking for?

> Let us say: I read to keep my hands occupied......to keep from

> masturbating.I am possessed of language and have nothing to say.

> Why not collect postage stamps, dirty jokes, or puns?

> Drinking endless cups of coffee or entering a pie-eating contest makes

> about as much sense.

> I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

> been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

>

> BON MOT

>

> If you lose contact with the Zeitgeist, never fear. You may still have

> contact with the poltergeist.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> The last one is probably my favourite. But generally I find the wit

> displayed here appealing, if somewhat desperate. The rambling attempts of a

> man trying to come to terms with the fact that the world perceives him as a

> lunatic, whereas he perceives the world as lunatic. I'm interested in the

> slippery valences of writing and writers in Solomon's texts. It's as if he

> is personally offended by the fact that writers put pen on page, and yet do

> not communicate anything of wisdom and worth. Is this just an early

> statement of a well-knowm postmodern symptom, or a reflection of Solomon's

> own low self-esteem - or IS he so out of contact with the sixties polter-

> sorry Zeitgeist as he makes out to be..?

>

> Regards,

>

> bs

>

> Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

> Aalborg University, Denmark

> http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

i found this very interesting. seemed to be able to read it any of a

number of ways at one time. The writer mad b/c he reads and the world

doesn't. the writer angry b/c he reads and the world doesn't. the

writer believes the world mad b/c he reads and they don't. the writer

angry at the world bc he reads and they don't. and all these readings

can happen at once very easily. to the point that halfway through a

line it seems pure parody and the next moment it seems serious as hell.

hmm. interesting thoughts.

as to the madness. it reminded me of something my ex-wife gave me that

i'm paraphrasing from long term memory:

"They said I was mad and I sad they were mad and damn them they outvoted

me :)" -- Ibsen (i think)

i got that from a different reading of it the fourth kind (i think it

was fourth, maybe third) in Hesse's essay on the different types of

reading. my mind left the text and the words pushed MY thinking rather

than an attempt to understand the AUTHOR's thinking.

but it is early and not quite done with a first cup of coffee or

anything so this all may come along as so much gibberish. if it gets

too gibberishstic please remind me to take my medications... :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: AG's grave??

Will there be a grave for Allen ginsberg?

If so, where?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:55:47 +0200

Reply-To: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject: Re: The gorror of fen koing hurthur

In-Reply-To: <v03007801af9f47910f44@[206.190.9.125]>

hi zach

cool, although this isnt much of a big story i guess it is beat as hell

and from the way you told it, i guess it has had a great philosophical

impact

on your life

--------------sincerely

moritz rossbach

saarbruecken, germany

moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------

..and i tell you things that you allready know, so you can say:

"i really identify with you....SO MUCH!"

-Henry Rollins: Liar

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

> i've always been able to keep my finger on it in public, and i've been in

> very public places with a head full of cid: movie theaters, mini-golf

> courses, state parks, malls, grocery stores. ppl think i'm bizarre when i'm

> straight so they don't think anything of it when i'm not...the only odd

> experience i've had:

> laying on a rock high high up on a cliff in a state park with two friends,

> twisted like crazy, exchanging sunglasses because the sun looks different

> through each pair; a father with three little girls comes up and sits maybe

> 2 feet away from us. this is a secluded, somewhat dangerous rock to be on.

> these kids are hoppin up and down, the father's looking at us weird and

> taking pictures of his girls...my 2 friends freak out immediately, going

> off somewhere; i laid back and stared at the sun till the kids and dad

> left, then my friends start babbling about how fucking weird that was, so i

> went down to the lake and sat down in the water till it was just up under

> my lips, till i turned into a prune. those kids had gotten to me and it was

> a little hard to deal with, as i'd been up for four days and had a fresh 2

> hits in me, so i needed the relax time...

> i just keep in mind that everyone no matter what their state, is

> essentially human. and if you think really hard, you can feel that other

> humanity. it's the only thing i've experienced i'd actually call

> 'profound', and it's happened both sober and otherwise....

>

> etc etc

>

> zach

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:20:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Attila the Hun

May 15, 1997

Paul Maher writes:

"I don't undestand why you think you are untouchable .... I then

could not ever take issue with your work should I find a reason to without

fear of violent reprisal? ... I have one published thesis in a scholarly

journal that I am proud of but if one was to take issue with it I wouldn't

be offended."

Dear Paul,

What's been going on here is not people criticizing my work, my

interpretations of Kerouac, my literary criticism, etc. It's been ONE

PERSONAL ATTACK AFTER ANOTHER. I'm out for money and power, I'm a glory

hunter, I'm too cheap to donate to a good cause, I'm a "nut," etc. Or they

lie outright, like Attila last night claiming I have nothing to talk about

but the Kerouac lawsuit, and claiming I "demanded" to be invited to Lowell

by Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! I never even contacted Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!--ever, in its 9 year history. The only thing I complained about,

here and in some of my writings, was the fact that THEY HAD ACTIVELY TRIED

TO STOP ME FROM COMING TO LOWELL when Brad Parker sought to have me come and

speak.

It's as bad as Martha Mayo telling the Lowell police you stole the

missing letters with not a shred of evidence to back her up. When people

keep making off-the-wall charges like that, it makes you wonder what their

game really is.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:44:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila the Hun

In a message dated 97-05-15 00:24:37 EDT, you write:

<< Didn't you guys ever read the rules of fair fightin'? One against

one, and at least a week to recuperate. That was the rule in my old

neighborhood.

Nick the Greek

>>

Hey Nick The Greek:

Why should we start being fair now? I'm from New York.

Attila the Hun

I never fought a fight I couldn't lose.

You can say that again.

Soitenly!

My sediments exactly.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:17:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: something completely different [Naked Lunch in French]

In-Reply-To: <970514232850_1556996347@emout19.mail.aol.com>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

> of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

> famous in France than in America.

> Pam Plymell

I once saw a 1964 edition of Naked Lunch translated into French by Eric

Kahane, and when I took it home and to compare it to the English, I

discovered it had all kinds of omissions (and even a few additions!)

(There was only 1 Steely Dan, for example, instead of 3 like there is

supposed to be.) Do you know if NL has been redone in French since then?

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:39:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

>Just to pipe in here....

>I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

>of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

>"New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

>of "October in Railroad Earth."

>

>This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. So,

>just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

>over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac! Who'd a thunk it, eh?

>

>Best,

>Kathleen

This would have to be for very advanced ESL students.

Most native american speakers would have trouble with this let alone a ESL

student overseas.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:41:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

May 15, 1997

Mr. David Rhaesa wrote:

"Once again, you're lumping from point A to point Q in a

conspiratorial mode. Frankly, I don't understand WHY you feel a need to

incorporate these conspiratorial arguments into your discourse."

Dear David,

Some all-inclusive conspiracy theories are wacko--like Oliver Stone

having everyone from the mafia to the CIA to Fidel Castro conspiring to kill

Kennedy.

That doesn't mean smalltime conspiracies don't sometimes exist. The

word is in the English language for a reason.

A lot of the stuff on the Beat-List recently, a lot of the charges

against me and Jan, had to come directly from Sampas.

For example, the matter of Jan Kerouac selling her mother's warrant

for child support was not public knowledge. It was known only to Jan, me,

the dealer, and the Sampases and their lawyer, George Tobia, who purchased

it. It was never in a news story or recounted at any Kerouac event.

So how did it get up here if it wasn't fed to someone by Sampas?

Curiously yours, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:12:17 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> May 15, 1997

>

> Mr. David Rhaesa wrote:

> "Once again, you're lumping from point A to point Q in a

> conspiratorial mode. Frankly, I don't understand WHY you feel a need to

> incorporate these conspiratorial arguments into your discourse."

>

> Dear David,

>

> Some all-inclusive conspiracy theories are wacko--like Oliver Stone

> having everyone from the mafia to the CIA to Fidel Castro conspiring to kill

> Kennedy.

> That doesn't mean smalltime conspiracies don't sometimes exist. The

> word is in the English language for a reason.

> A lot of the stuff on the Beat-List recently, a lot of the charges

> against me and Jan, had to come directly from Sampas.

> For example, the matter of Jan Kerouac selling her mother's warrant

> for child support was not public knowledge. It was known only to Jan, me,

> the dealer, and the Sampases and their lawyer, George Tobia, who purchased

> it. It was never in a news story or recounted at any Kerouac event.

> So how did it get up here if it wasn't fed to someone by Sampas?

> Curiously yours, Gerry Nicosia

i don't know how the person found out about that. i am certainly

ignorant. but it might be that Sampas just talked to some people about

what was going on in his life rather than plotted or conspired. i

imagine that you can only be certain about your knowledge that you

didn't tell the person.

but that is beside the point. even if Sampas told someone about that

subject that he "shouldn't have" (i'm not sure why he can't talk to or

have friends), it doesn't mean that every action and every point in the

chain from A to Q is conspiratorial in nature.

at any event, you have shown your true colors. i wasn't certain

before. there is a reason for your choice of the rhetorical devices and

it is that you seem to BELIEVE in your heart and soul that there is a

conspiracy afoot in this matter.

i don't understand why, even if you believe it, you choose to

incorporate it as the subtextual theme of so much of your information.

frankly, i've found Oliver Stone's notions far more compelling. i hope

for the sake of the archives that those with power on this issue are

able to read past your polluted rhetoric and make judgements on the

merits of whether or not the Kerouac archive ought become a public

treasure.

i can definitely report that i am and am in no way part of any

conspiracy in this matter relating to John Sampas.

and photocopiers are hell ....

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:46:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: TRIUMPH OF THE WILL

"...ten minutes of a lone cowboy waiting

in an empty trail station for the Sampas gang to show up."

--James Stauffer

Dear James:

It's been over two weeks, and I'm still waiting. My grub's done run

out, and all I've glimpsed so far are a few outriders.

(P.S. Leni Riefenstahl beats Sergio Leone any day.)

Gerhard Von Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:08 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: AG's grave??

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 May 1997 09:25:31 -0400 from <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Yes, part of Allen's ashes will be buried in his father's plot in Paterson.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:17:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Coming soon:

The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. 1, No. 2

Featuring:

The complete list of the Kerouac Archives at The New York Public Library (8

pages worth)..

Ellis Amburn Interview about his new Kerouac bio

More on Some Of the Dharma

More on the making of Kicks Joy Darkness

A list of 10 books off of Kerouac's archival shelves

And more.....

To order...please send $5.00 (USA) $7.00 (overseas and Canada) to:

The Kerouac Quarterly

34 North Rd. #7

Chelmsford, MA.

Also can be purchased from Water Row Books E-mail me privately for more info.

Vol.1, No. 1 can be purchased from Water Row Books as well...Thanks, Regards

to all, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:03:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

..... you seem to BELIEVE in your heart and soul that there is a

>conspiracy afoot in this matter.....

>

>i don't understand why, even if you believe it, you choose to

>incorporate it as the subtextual theme of so much of your information.....

>

>david rhaesa

>

Dave, May 15, 1997

"Conspiracy" is your word of choice, not mine.

What I've said over and over is that Mr. Sampas is doing everything

he can to control the spin that is being put on his handling of the Kerouac

archive. He has personally killed at least one news story that I know of

(in the SAN FRANCISCO REVIEW OF BOOKS, attested to by publisher Don Paul).

He has even attempted to interfere in my court case with John Lash, by

objecting to the University of Texas that its archive director shouldn't

have sent an affidavit to the Albuquerque court. That is documentable, not

airy-fairy speculation. If Mr. Sampas will threaten a publisher and

interfere in another man's court case, what makes you think he won't give

his friends a few choice weapons against me here on the Beat-List?

Still curious,

Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:06:00 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: AG's grave??

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 May 1997 13:57:08 EDT from <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

Replying to my own text, I'm not exactly sure now that the location of the grav

e is in Paterson. But wherever Louis is buried, that's where you'll find 1/3 o

f Allen's ashes.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:11:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: K Sands Boehmer <ksbedit@SHORE.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

>>Just to pipe in here....

>>I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

>>of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

>>"New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

>>of "October in Railroad Earth."

>>

>>This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. So,

>>just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

>>over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac! Who'd a thunk it, eh?

>>

>>Best,

>>Kathleen

>

>This would have to be for very advanced ESL students.

>

>Most native american speakers would have trouble with this let alone a ESL

>student overseas.

Note that I said that the excerpt appeared in Level 6 of a six-level course.

:-)

Level 6 books never sold as well as Level 1 (naturally).

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:18:36 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: The Beat experience CDROM 1995 edition

cari amici beat,

"The Red Hot Organization" has created in 1995 a

CD ROM called "THE BEAT EXPERIENCE", $39.95, i have seen

the software in a bookstore/musicstore,

this cdrom is sold by VOYAGER 1 Bridge St

Irvington NY 10533-9919, have someone listen 'bout

this cdrom,

in yr opinion it's a worth purcase, please tell me,

'cuz of i'm really a beetle (what a hot day today!,

here in italy!)

yrs Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:36:42 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Flammable

I Vagadondi del Dharma.

A Han-Sahan (who is?)

1.

Saltato su un treno merci che partiva da Los Angeles in pieno

mezzogiorno d'una giornata di fine settembre del 1955 presi

posto su un carro aperto e mi straiai col mio sacco a spalla

sotto la testa a gambe accavallate e contemplai le nuvole mentre

correvamo a nord verso Santa Barbara. Era un treno locale

e la mia intenzione era di dormire quella notte sulla spiaggia

di Santa Barbara e salire la mattina dopo su un altro treno locale

fino a San Luis Obispo oppure su un merci espresso che

arrivava direttamente a San Francisco alle sette di sera.

All'altezza di Camarillo, dove Charlie Parker, impazzito, era stato

ricoverato e restituito alla normalita',....

ma quello che incontri but what you meet

h realmente un'esperienza? is really an experience?

Parker h rosso Parker is red

come un crepuscolo like a twilight

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:47:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: han on rye

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970515193642.00688c88@pop.gpnet.it>

rinaldo(beet of little vegetation)

is han-sahan anything like han-shan ("cold mountain")??

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:13:17 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: TRIUMPH OF THE WILL

At 10:46 AM 5/15/97 -0700, you wrote:

> "...ten minutes of a lone cowboy waiting

>in an empty trail station for the Sampas gang to show up."

> --James Stauffer

>

>Dear James:

>

> It's been over two weeks, and I'm still waiting. My grub's done run

>out, and all I've glimpsed so far are a few outriders.

Needs food?

> (P.S. Leni Riefenstahl beats Sergio Leone any day.)

> Gerhard Von Nicosia

If only the talented maker of that film, _Triumph of the Will_

had been assigned the even more "manly" project:

"The Triumph of Honest Knowledge"

(a work always in progress, and ever to be so)

- that would really be an accomplishment for 1,000 years

Such a film would have to invent new communication forms.

_Triumph of the Will_ enabled a doomed project to advance

and emphasized methods known in Machievelli's time and before.

The appeal to emotion, as in _Triumph of the Will_,

is an easy way to gain temporary hypnotic

control of an audience....but as they later

found,

what's really needed are people who can

think, and honestly discuss;

at which time the

problems often

seem to change as

they come into

better focus. The

main problem

we can solve usually

isn't "them"

but how to make the most

of what we

already have

which sometimes

means

admitting

"th

ey" too are

overlooking

the next

advance.

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:18:51 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> ..... you seem to BELIEVE in your heart and soul that there is a

> >conspiracy afoot in this matter.....

> >

> >i don't understand why, even if you believe it, you choose to

> >incorporate it as the subtextual theme of so much of your information.....

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >

>

> Dave, May 15, 1997

>

> "Conspiracy" is your word of choice, not mine.

> What I've said over and over is that Mr. Sampas is doing everything

> he can to control the spin that is being put on his handling of the Kerouac

> archive. He has personally killed at least one news story that I know of

> (in the SAN FRANCISCO REVIEW OF BOOKS, attested to by publisher Don Paul).

> He has even attempted to interfere in my court case with John Lash, by

> objecting to the University of Texas that its archive director shouldn't

> have sent an affidavit to the Albuquerque court. That is documentable, not

> airy-fairy speculation. If Mr. Sampas will threaten a publisher and

> interfere in another man's court case, what makes you think he won't give

> his friends a few choice weapons against me here on the Beat-List?

> Still curious,

> Gerry

you just don't get it. you really don't. can't understand it myself.

why do you throw innuendo at everything. why can't you talk straight to

some people at least some of the time.

you just don't get it. you really don't. can't understand it myself.

why does the computer happen to throw innuendo into everything you write

on the beatlist. why can't your computer talk to my computer at least

once in awhile in something of a straight manner.

i might have to start capitalizing letters. i might!

two posts ago, you brought up oliver stone, you commented that this

situation is not like an oliver stone but a real one, you reminded me

and other readers that the word conspiracy is in the dictionary, then

you continued to throw conspiratorial claims and Now ....

now now now

you clip all of that away and say i'm the one whose suggesting

conspiracy.

MISTER. i was being nice.

i was trying to save you from your own fingers tendencies to shoot

unnecessary shots that are poisoning your pen.

i really really feel stupid. cuz for quite awhile i really respected

you despite the innuendo you throw so quickly as a scholar. for quite

awhile i really thought that you were a person that cared about these

matters.

i'm pretty much convinced right now ... and hopefully it will change ..

that you are a very very bitter man who cares more about throwing crap

at people than about anything else.

sincerely,

Mister David Race Rhaesa

p.s. read while listeining to a touch of Johnny Cash at midnight.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:43:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Flammable

a is not a

z is not z

everything in between is hogwash

on a shore of butter

red

jerm

to andy

----------

: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Flammable

: Date: Thursday, May 15, 1997 12:36 PM

:

: I Vagadondi del Dharma.

:

: A Han-Sahan (who is?)

:

: 1.

: Saltato su un treno merci che partiva da Los Angeles in pieno

: mezzogiorno d'una giornata di fine settembre del 1955 presi

: posto su un carro aperto e mi straiai col mio sacco a spalla

: sotto la testa a gambe accavallate e contemplai le nuvole mentre

: correvamo a nord verso Santa Barbara. Era un treno locale

: e la mia intenzione era di dormire quella notte sulla spiaggia

: di Santa Barbara e salire la mattina dopo su un altro treno locale

: fino a San Luis Obispo oppure su un merci espresso che

: arrivava direttamente a San Francisco alle sette di sera.

: All'altezza di Camarillo, dove Charlie Parker, impazzito, era stato

: ricoverato e restituito alla normalita',....

:

: ma quello che incontri but what you meet

: h realmente un'esperienza? is really an experience?

: Parker h rosso Parker is red

: come un crepuscolo like a twilight

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:54:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: andrew szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: school and literature...

hmmm,

seeing that there's a lot of talk about school

programs, i feel that i need to budge in. i'm a junior in

high school right now, and not too long ago my american

lit. teacher became aware of my interest in the beat gen.

she already knew that i was reading more in my spare

time than most of the kiddies my age, but she was still

a little put off because of her experience with the beats.

she has never been a fan of kerouac because of his

apparent machoism to her, and other than that she

really hadn't dealt with more beat than she had to. i

tried to talk her into teaching a little from that era, and

she complied by promising me that she'd find some

appropriate poems that could be taught to the whole

class, but other than that she feels that her job would

be in danger. i must agree because there's just so

much that the small community in which i live can

handle. but after all of this she HASN'T deterred me

from delving farther into the literature.... in fact, she likes

to see and hear about what i'm reading, as long as it's

done on my own time. so i guess that as long as the

beats are mentioned in class and the students are

given fair awareness of them then i'll be happy.

as a side note, we were made to watch a film

strip on walt whitman a little earlier in the year. the film

started going off on whom whitman has influenced

throughout the years, and as a picture of kerouac

surfaced on the screen i threw my hands up in joy. i

really don't think that anyone else in the class knew

what i was so happy about, but i suppose that that's

their loss.

andrew

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:21:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In-Reply-To: <970514232850_1556996347@emout19.mail.aol.com>

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

>

> << an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

> >idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

> >for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

> >experience, >>

>

> At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

> Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu. I also heard her

> translating Reality Sandwiches. By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

> Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

> say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

> I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

> of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

> famous in France than in America.

> Pam Plymell

>

hello evryone,

I would never say that highschoolers should not read Beat lit; but i

don't think it should necessarily be TAUGHT in highschool.

I am currently a senior in highschool. i became familiar with Kerouac

outside of school, and Beat literature is not included in any of the

English classes at my school, although a few novels are listed as the

suggestions for assignments in a couple classes at my school. i have done

papers for school on Kerouac and Ginsberg on rare occasions when students

are allowed to choose, with the approval of the teacher, their topics.

of the teachers at my school, though dont get me wrong they are all very

interested in literature, i don't think any of them would be able to do a

good job with the beats.

based only on my experience, beat writing could only be effectively used

in the active coursework if the methods of teaching were drastically

different (improved?). for example, less forced, more subjective, free,

whatever.

nevertheless, i think its great for teenagers to read any good or

interesting works. but On the Road cannot be treated thev same as stuff i

normally read in school because most of my teachers just don't get On the

Road.

(i have more to say but cant right now)

respectfully,

Eric

rhs4@crystal.palace.net

who was instructed last year that: the White Whale respresents all that is

paradoxical, unpredictable, and uncontrolable in nature; and if one tries

to say that it signifies something else, he or she is flat out wrong!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 04:28:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: George Thomas Finch <finchgeo@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: han on rye

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> rinaldo(beet of little vegetation)

> is han-sahan anything like han-shan ("cold mountain")??

> yrs

> derek

I believe so yes, may be a mis-romaization of the Chinese..:)

'G

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:31:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: school and literature...

In-Reply-To: <9705151912.AA06879@jane.penn.com>

hello,

at my school, only passing refernece to the beats is made; like, "and in

the fifties, there was a group of people called beatnicks, who would sit

in coffeshops and read poetry while beating bongo drums." And thats it.

in the library, Ginsberg's Howl and The Fall of America are the only

books by him there, and they are categorized as RESERVED, which means

that they are kept in a shelf behind the checkout counter. "Fallof

America" is missing. Howl rests there. Because its reserved, it can only

be taken out for one night. Reserved books are the form of

mini-censorship our school engages in, i guess so that no innocent child

brosing through the poetry section will come across any "indecent" work.

The Reserved books include Tim Leary's Flashbacks as well as Scietific

books about drugs. if there was more beat literature at my school, itd be

there too, but --

adios, soory if this is boring,

Eric

On Thu, 15 May 1997, andrew szymczyk wrote:

> hmmm,

>

> seeing that there's a lot of talk about school

> programs, i feel that i need to budge in. i'm a junior in

> high school right now, and not too long ago my american

> lit. teacher became aware of my interest in the beat gen.

> she already knew that i was reading more in my spare

> time than most of the kiddies my age, but she was still

> a little put off because of her experience with the beats.

> she has never been a fan of kerouac because of his

> apparent machoism to her, and other than that she

> really hadn't dealt with more beat than she had to. i

> tried to talk her into teaching a little from that era, and

> she complied by promising me that she'd find some

> appropriate poems that could be taught to the whole

> class, but other than that she feels that her job would

> be in danger. i must agree because there's just so

> much that the small community in which i live can

> handle. but after all of this she HASN'T deterred me

> from delving farther into the literature.... in fact, she likes

> to see and hear about what i'm reading, as long as it's

> done on my own time. so i guess that as long as the

> beats are mentioned in class and the students are

> given fair awareness of them then i'll be happy.

>

> as a side note, we were made to watch a film

> strip on walt whitman a little earlier in the year. the film

> started going off on whom whitman has influenced

> throughout the years, and as a picture of kerouac

> surfaced on the screen i threw my hands up in joy. i

> really don't think that anyone else in the class knew

> what i was so happy about, but i suppose that that's

> their loss.

>

>

> andrew

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:32:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject: school and literature... -Reply

RIGHT ON ANDREW!

THAT'S IT! Worse case scenario, a few people in class are bored with

the Beat Gen. works and yawn. Best case scenario, people like you get

turned on to the power of lit. (Hands are thrown in the air and silent

screams of joy are let go!) I had a similar experience with HS teacher

that turned me on to lit. that wasn't being taught in class. This may

sound goofy, BUT SHE CHANGED MY LIFE. Another goofy comment:

Literature doesn't seem to be for everyone. True quote from a friend of

mine: "You read??? Readin's dumb!" OK..., I say. His interests lay

elsewhere. So what? People on this list dig reading and writing...it's

in our blood and a part of our everyday life. It was a part of me when

I was a high school student. It took the time and attention of a

special teacher to nurture and develop what was to become a passion (and

way of life.) Kudos to your teacher for having the guts to step outside

the classroom curriculum and recognize your passion.

My best,

-Mark

MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>>> andrew szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM> 05/15/97 02:54pm >>>

hmmm,

seeing that there's a lot of talk about school

programs, i feel that i need to budge in. i'm a junior in

high school right now, and not too long ago my american

lit. teacher became aware of my interest in the beat gen.

she already knew that i was reading more in my spare

time than most of the kiddies my age, but she was still

a little put off because of her experience with the beats.

she has never been a fan of kerouac because of his

apparent machoism to her, and other than that she

really hadn't dealt with more beat than she had to. i

tried to talk her into teaching a little from that era, and

she complied by promising me that she'd find some

appropriate poems that could be taught to the whole

class, but other than that she feels that her job would

be in danger. i must agree because there's just so

much that the small community in which i live can

handle. but after all of this she HASN'T deterred me

from delving farther into the literature.... in fact, she likes

to see and hear about what i'm reading, as long as it's

done on my own time. so i guess that as long as the

beats are mentioned in class and the students are

given fair awareness of them then i'll be happy.

as a side note, we were made to watch a film

strip on walt whitman a little earlier in the year. the film

started going off on whom whitman has influenced

throughout the years, and as a picture of kerouac

surfaced on the screen i threw my hands up in joy. i

really don't think that anyone else in the class knew

what i was so happy about, but i suppose that that's

their loss.

andrew

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:02:23 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: STARSPOTTING Re: Chaput is Kaput!

>

>and photocopiers are hell ....

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

THE Spice Girls sang live last night

for the first time on a stage to show

they can perform their complicated

harmonies without the aid of backing

tapes.

yrs rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:03:36 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: OUT OF THE DARKNESS

"Bernard show believed that

the British Libray was the only

successful socialist demoscracy in the

world which treated readers equally,

was paid for out of redistribuited tax

and run on non-profit-making principles."

*Cats appear to be the only domestic animals

permitted to stray at will on public land &

private property other than that of their owners*

yrs Rinaldo.

* 1 2 3 tutti giu'! *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:15:51 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: 1977

http://www.taonet.it/77web/

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:23:25 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: counterculture its dawn

Divenire delle culture creative

La fenomenologia delle culture creative contiene un complesso sistema di

riferimenti che rinviano alle avanguardie storiche, al maoismo, ma anche

alla filosofia hippy, all'orientalismo degli anni Sessanta, all'utopismo

felice e comunitario, connesso con la pessimistica profezia della Teoria

critica.

Nel corso degli anni Sessanta due tendenze avevano dato forma alle culture

cosiddette giovanili: la tendenza a considerare I'avvenire con sicurezza e

fiducia, ad accettare il modello di sviluppo economico e tecnologico che

sembrava destinato ad essere illimitato e irreversibile E poi vi era la

tendenza che possiame definire "controculturale: questa non metteva

sostanzialmente in questione la certezza di uno sviluppo lineare, ma si

limitava a rifiutarne le conseguenze di integrazione culturale e di

appiattimento esistenziale, rifiutava l'omologazione e la perdita di

liberta che la societa dei consumi determinava.

Il movimento controculturale (hippy, antimperialista, movimento delle

comuni, movimento studentesco) era strettamente connesso alla societa del

benessere, ne era I'altra faccia.

Ma ecco che con gli anni Settanta il quadro economico e politico muta: la

crisi rompe la fiducia nel futuro, e l'orizzonte non appare rassicurante:

le identita personali e collettive del decennio precedente (che siano

integrate o ribelli) debbono ridisegnarsi su un altro panorama, su un'altra

attesa di futuro.

Non c'i dubbio che la data piz significativa di questo rovesciamento di

scenari e di percezione i il '77.

Il '77 i un anno carico di significato per le culture giovanili in tutto

l'occidente: i l'anno in cui il punk esplode a Londra, ed i Sex Pistols

sfidano la polizia e la monarchia con i loro concerti provocatori, nel

giorno dei festeggiamenti per la Regina. Ed i l'anno in cui si verificano

le prime grandi manifestazioni antinucleari, a Malville ed a Brokdorf.

I movimenti rivoluzionari erano stati portatori di una speranza e di

un'ideologia fiduciosa e organica; i movimenti che si manifestano in

quell'anno sono invece il segno del rifiuto e del rigetto della modernita,

segnalano piuttosto disperazione per lo scenario creato dalla crisi e

dall'emergere delle nuove tecnologie, che una speranza nel progresso

tecnologico ed economico.

Un'intera prospettiva storica si rovescia, le culture giovanili registrano

questo rovesciamento nel '77: dall'espansione della societa industriale si

passa alla sua crisi, e inoltre il progresso industriale comincia a

mostrare le sue tendenze catastrofiche. Il rovesciamento della prospettiva

i anche segnato dalla transizione alla societa dominata dall'elettronica,

dalla freddezza tecnologica e dall'arroganza competitiva, dall'onnipotenza

dello spettacolo e dell'informazione.

I giovani che vengono sulla scena dopo il '77 sono in effetti ben diversi

da quelli che li avevano preceduti: essi sono gli spettatori del crollo dei

miti sociali del moderno: la crisi di prospettiva della societa moderna

appare loro come il venir meno di ogni possibilita di futuro. Il punk i, in

questo senso, la lucida consapevolezza di un mutamento epocale.

Visto su questo sfondo, il '77 italiano acquista una partioclare densita:

in quell'anno si sommano gli effetti di una prolungata stagione di lotte

operaie e di una esplosione culturale di movimenti di rivolta dei

disoccupati e dei giovani, di tutti coloro che si sentono minacciati dal

nuovo assetto produttivo che si intravvede all'orizzonte del postindustriale.

Il movimento del '77 in Italia sintetizza tutte le differenti facce della

controcultura giovanile: l'anima politica di stampo maoista, l'aggressivita

guerrigliera si mescolano con il creativismo di chiara derivazione hippy: e

tutto questo finisce per sfociare nella cupa e disperata rappresentazione

del primo emergere del punk.

Mentre nei mesi caldi della primavera del '77 (quando esplosero le rivolte

di piazza a Bologna e a Roma) il tono predominante era quello della

speranza messianica, della fiducia euforica in una comunita liberata, nella

costruzione di zone liberate, nei mesi successivi, dopo l'impatto con la

durezza della repressione e soprattutto con la spietata logica

dell'emraginazione , della disoccupazione, della competitivita, divenne

predominante il tono disperato e autodistruttivo, il sentimento del

sopravvenire di un'epoca disumana in cui tutti i valori di solidarieta

sarebbero stati cancellati.

In questo senso possiamo dire che il '77 fu al contempo una sintesi degli

anni Sessanta e Settanta, ed una cupa premonizione degli anni Ottanta.

Dopo il '77 vennero ad emergenza in maniera diffusa quelle tendenze che

caratterizzano il comportamento della popolazione giovanile nei cosiddetti

anni del "riflusso": si modificano gli atteggiamenti e le motivazioni verso

il lavoro, gli atteggiamenti verso ilprocesso di socializzazione, il

bisogno di comunita e il gusto estremistico e sprezzante per la propira

solitudine orgogliosa. E infine matura in quel momento il passaggio dalle

fome culturali improntate al collettivismo e alligualitarismo verso le

forme che sono dominate dall'individualismo.

Il '77 rappresenta una critica di ogni investimento psicologico sul futuro,

e la rivendicazione di un'immanenza senza residui, di un vivere nel

presente che non lascia spazio alle ideologie ni alle attese. Nella cultura

del '77 l'insurrezione i un atto tutto presente, un atto che vale la sua

immediatezza e non per il futuro che deve instaurare. Su questo rifiuto

dell'investimento nel futuro si fonda anche la critica che la cultura

del'77 rivolse alla militanza politica tradizionale.

Bisogna vivere subito la felicita, e non proporsela per il futuro

post-rivoluzionario. Ma se vediamo le cose in prospettiva, con gli occhi

della successiva esperienza, ci rendiamo conto del fatto che l'immanentismo

felice del '77, la rivendicazione di un futuro integrale da vivere

pienamente altro non i che l'anticipazione del "no future" del punk, che

subito dopo il tramonto della bruciante esperienza del '77 dilaga nella

coscienza giovanile. Non bisogna attendersi nulla dal futuro perchi non c'i

futuro per i valori umani, per la solidarieta, la liberta, il piacere di

vivere.

Il futuro apparve improvvisamente segnato dagli spettri della

militarizzazione, della violenza, del conformismo, della miseria. E in

effetti dopo il '77 che gli investimenti militari aumentano spaventosamente

e il clima della guerra fredda riprende in concomitanza con l avittoria di

Reagan; i dopo il '77 che un'ondata di licenziamenti si abbatte sugli

operai in tutto l'Occidente industriale, e le nuove tecnologie mettono

fuori gioco milioni di posti di lavoro facendo della disoccupazione

giovanile un dato strutturale ineliminabile.

Il futuro appare arido e deserto; e in effetti i a partire da quel momento

che sul mercato dell droga fa la sua comparsa massiccia l'eroina, ed i

anche il momento in cui, costretti a trovare uno spazio nel mondo della

deregulation e della concorrenza spietata fra disoccupati, fanno la loro

ricomparsa individualismo e competizione, producendo una crisi profonda

delle forme di comunita solidale degli anni precedenti.

Insomma, i in quel momento che cambia lo scenario: ma esso cambia

soprattutto nel sistema di attese e di immaginazioni possibili del futuro.

Cambia, cioi, nella mente sociale, nella percezione culturale, fino a

rinchiudersi cupamente nell'omologazione conformista ed anestetizzante

degli anni Ottanta dispiegati.

(PRIMO MORONI/NANNI BALESTRINI - L'ORDA D'ORO - SugarCo 1988 )

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:29:08 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: ALLEN GINSBERG IS ALIVE IN THE NET

Siti e documenti su Allen Ginsberg e sulla sua opera

Ma il Beat sopravvive in Rete

di ENRICO M. FERRARI

Il "seme e la sorgente" della Beat Generation, come h stato definito Allen

Ginsberg su un sito americano, sopravvive online, e con lui la sua cultura.

Subito dopo l'aggravarsi delle condizioni di salute di Ginsberg, i maggiori

siti a lui dedicati o collegati sono usciti con bollettini speciali che ne

hanno scandito le ultime ore di vita.

Wired dedica alla scomparsa del padre del Beat un lungo servizio ricco di

fatti sulla vita e l'opera di Ginsberg.

Uno dei punti principali, pieno di foto, scritti e link su Ginsberg, h la

pagina di Mongo Bearwolf. Una sorta di epitaffio virtuale h presente su

questa pagina, in perfetto stile Beat.

Literary Kicks dedica svariate pagine a Ginsburg e alle sue opere: h

presente una bibliografia dei lavori di Ginsberg,

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Lists/GinsbergWorks.html ed una bibliografia

dei lavori su Ginsberg stesso,

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Biblio/GinsbergBiblio.html

L'FBI aveva aperto diverse inchieste su Ginsberg : nel sito Allen

Ginsberg's FBI Files h possibile ritrovare tracce di quelle indagini.

The Beat Generation Archive presenta un vasto archivio sul mondo beat:

articoli, foto e link a personaggi o protagonisti del movimento.

Nella "bhoemian page" dedicata a Ginsberg h presente una completa biografia

del poeta, con il lungo dispaccio Associated Press che ne annuncia la morte.

Famose e numerose sono le interviste di Ginsberg, tutte presenti sulla rete

, ma sparse per numerosi siti: La celebre intervista "Ginsberg goes

bananas" h tratta da Seconds Magazine, Hot Press presenta una intervista

denominata "Ma il beat avanza..". Mark Amerika, "columnist" di Internet,

dedica a Ginsberg il pezzo Amerika Online,

In occasione dell'intervento di Ginsberg al club Megatripolis di Londra, 19

ottobre 1995, Lee Harris, dedica un servizio a Ginsberg.

The Poetry of Allen Ginsberg raccoglie i lavori di Ginsberg tratti da "Howl

and other poems," del 1956 e del 1959.

Altri lavori online si possono trovare su HotWired e sul sito Harry Smith.

Una completa scelta di titoli su Ginsberg, libri e CD, h disponibile su

Amazon con i prezzi di ogni singolo articolo.

Una mailing list sul beat h rintracciabile presso:

gopher://dept.english.upenn.edu:70/00/Lists/20th/beat-l

Il newsgroup che si occupa di beat generation h: news:alt.books.beatgeneration

http://sun2.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/ginsberg/rassegna/rassegna.html

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:06:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

In-Reply-To: <970514143243_641414144@emout02.mail.aol.com>

On 5-14-97 Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

The other day I was surfing around and discovered Jo Grant's

>web page on which he is running Nicosia's piece about the JK archives. In

>that essay, the same error that Gerry took back later on is still there on Jo

>Grant's page.

>I wrote Jo Grant and asked him to remove the error written about me. His

>response to me was that he hasn't had time yet. He's been too busy. The man

>knows it's a lie and doesn't have time to remove it??

Jeffery,

I responded to your request that I remove the information NOT by saying I

was too busy.

My first response was to tell you I had been out of town and I'd take care

of it right away...that Gerry had probably already asked me to do so--which

he hasn't, but he has been busy so I understand. I will check with him.

Then, when I looked for the information on BookZen I couldn't find it.

So on 5-14-97 at 2:04 p.m. I responded with the following:

>Jeffery,

>A friend is in the process of reorganizing the Keroauc material on

>BookZen. I jumped >in this a.m. and couldn't find the page to correct.

>Would you mind sending me the document's address? It would really help and

>save me >a ton of time.

>Thanks,

>jo

The above was in response to the following.

>>Jo

:>>

>>I was finally able tonight to read Gerry's essay about the Estate controversy

>>that you have posted on your web page.

>>

>>In the essay, Gerry mentions that Rod Anstee is a close friend of mine and

>>that he had detailed information about what I sold as agent for John Sampas

>>and to whom.

>I have paraphrased Gerry's words - you get the drift of what I'm referring to

>>-

>>

>>Gerry is wrong about this matter. Rod Anstee did not know about all the items

>>that were sold nor did he know to whom. I did not tell Anstee all the details

>>- just the details that were not considered confidential.

>>

>>As a professional, I keep all business transactions between parties

>>confidential unless I am told otherwise by the parties involved.

>>

>>Gerry and I have already discussed this matter of confidentiality and Gerry

>>has posted a correction to one of his emails on the Beat-L. However, I demand

>>that you

>>notify Gerry immediately and that his essay on your web page that mentions me

>>

>>be corrected.

>>

>>I am sure that Gerry does not wish to continue to give the impression that I

>>am not professional in my duties nor that I cannot be entrusted with clients'

>>personal business affairs.

>>

>>Sincerely,

>>

>>Jeffrey H. Weinberg

>>Water Row Books

I have not been remiss in addressing this issue. I honestly have not been

able to find the document in question. Please send me the address of the

document.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:09:25 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

>i'm sorry, but this is an english-speaking list. nobody can read this.

>

>please limit your posts to the english language.

>

>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

>> Divenire delle culture creative

[snipped/tagliuzzato/cut]

>>

>Michael Stutz

Michael, i ask pardon to all the Beat-List!, chiedo perdono!,

are u interested in the UNIVERSAL knownledge of the matter?

i hope the answer is yes!

*

my poor signature is Pooh Bear a not competent beetle-beet-bee-be-bo-beat

or a starspotting on the Beat-List...

or in the beat scene... vi prego se scrivo in italiano cerco

di scrivere anche more in american but sometime the time

to translate a thought stress my spontaneous email prose &

tooke me a great piece of time... sorry Michael Stutz. how

can i do? i must became a dumb? why u not learn some italian? (a chance).

*

*awright derek & others Han-Shan is the real beetthing! *

*thnxlt*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:28:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516000925.0068cab0@pop.gpnet.it>

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> Michael, i ask pardon to all the Beat-List!, chiedo perdono!,

> are u interested in the UNIVERSAL knownledge of the matter?

Maybe you should learn the universal language of netiquette, then. Load up a

search engine and look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell it in

Italian, because I'm sure there are translations -- so you can learn that

its impolite and in bad taste to quote other people's email on a public

forum without their permission. Same goes to flooding lists which you did

here not too long ago.

It is not my place (or desire) to police a list but this constant barrage of

noise is wearing thin. Sure I looked at that '77 url you posted, but saw no

relation to the list other than the words "william blake," and that article

a while back (all in Italian) with the nice Ginzy photo, but come on! I know

German, so should I post a shitload of German poetry to the list, or reprint

articles from _Der Spiegel_ about Allen Ginsberg? Why draw the line there --

how 'bout I send copies of "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen" -- Japanse

translation -- to the list? It will look like noise to most readers, but the

"UNIVERSAL knowledge" is somewhere in those bits!

Other listers: am I missing something here?

Rinaldo: gosh you're quick to address my complaint (sent to you just minutes

before you posted to the list), but you've been great at ignoring other

email I sent to you in the past asking you questions or to expound on other

things you wrote. Guess I just wasn't interesting enough to share your

universal knowledge then.

Sick of noise and bad vibes, all too much lately,

m

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:36:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: To Jack Kerouac

DO JACK KEROUAC

by Cathal O'Searcaigh

do Sheamas de Blaca

"The only people for me are the mad ones,

the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,

mad to be saved, desirous of everything at

the same time, the ones who never yawn or

say a commonplace thing but burn,

burn like fabulous yellow roman candles"

Sliocht as On the Road

Ag sioscadh tri do shaothar anocht thainig leoithne na

cuimhne chugam o gach leathanach.

Athmhusclaiodh m'oige is mhothaigh me ag eiri ionam an

beat briongloideach a bhi ag deanamh aithris ort i dtus na seachtoidi.

1973. Bhi me hookailte ort. La i ndiaidh lae fuair me shot inspioraide o

do shaothar a ghealaigh m'aigne is a shin mo shamhlaiocht.

Ni Min a Lea na Fana Bhui a bhi a fheiceail agam an t-am adai ach

machairi Nebraska agus tailte fearaigh Iowa.

Agus nuair a thagadh na bliuann orm ni bealach na Bealtaine a bhi

romham amach ach morbhealach de chuid Mheiricea.

"Hey man you gotta stay high" a dearfainn le mo chara agus muid ag

freakail tri Chailifornia Chill Ulta isteach go Frisco an Fhal

Charraigh.

Ta do leabhar ina lui druidte ar m'ucht ach faoi chraiceann an chludaigh

ta do chroi ag preabadaigh i bhfeitfeog gach focail.

Oh man mothaim aris, na higheanna adai ar Himileithe na hoige:

O chosta go costa thriall muid le cheile, saonta, spleodrach,

mistiurtha;

Oilithreacht ordoige o Nua-Eabhrac go Frisco agus as sin go Cathair

Mheicsiceo;

Beat buile inar mbeatha. Spreagtha. Ag bladhmadh sios boithre i

gCadillacs ghasta ag sciorradh thar ior na ceille ar eiteoga na

mbennies.

Thrasnaigh muid teorainneacha agus thrasnaigh muid taibhrithe.

Cheiliuraigh muid gach casadh ar bhealach ar mbeatha, bingeanna agus

braithreachas o Bhrooklyn go Berkeley, booze, bop agus Budachas; Eigse

na hAise; sreangscealta as an tsioraiocht ar na Sierras; marijuana

agus misteachas i Meicsiceo; briongloidi buile i mBixby Canyon.

Rinne muid Oirfeas as gach orifice.

O is cuimhneach liom e go leir, a Jack, an chaint is an cuartu.

Ba tusa bard beoshuileach na mboithre, ar thoir na foirfeachta, ar thoir

na bhFlatheas.

Is ce nach bhfuil aon aicearra chuig na Deithe, adeirtear, d'eirigh

leatsa sli a aimsiu in amantai nuair a d'fheistigh tu uim adhainte ar

Niagara d'aigne le dope is le diagacht.

Is i mBomaite sin na Buile gineadh solas a thug spleachadh duit ar an

tSioraiocht,

Is a threoraigh 'na bhaile tu, ta suil agam, la do bhais chuig Whitman,

Proust agus Rimbaud.

Ta mo bhealach fein romham amach... "a road that ah zigzags all over

creation. Yeah man! Ain't nowhere else it can go. Right!"

Agus la inteacht ar bhealach na seanaoise is na scoilteacha

No la nios congarai do bhaile, b'fheidir,

Scroicfidh me Crosbhealach na Cinniuna is beidh an Bas romham ansin,

Treorai tiriuil le me a thabhairt thar teorainn,

Is ansin, goddammit a Jack, beidh muid beirt ag siobshiul s tSioraiocht.

TO JACK KEROUAC

For Seamas de Blaca

"The only people for me are the mad ones,

the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,

mad to be saved, desirous of everything at

the same time, the ones who never yawn or

say a commonplace thing but burn, burn like

fabulous yellow roman candles"

On the Road

Thumbing through your work tonight the aroma of memories came from

every page.

My youth rewoke and I felt rising in me the dreamy beat that imitated

you at the start of the '70s.

1973. I was hooked on you. Day after day I got shots of inspiritation

from your life which lit my mind and stretched my imagination.

I didn't see Min 'a Lea or Fana Bhui then, but the plains of Nebraska

and the grassy lands of Iowa

And when the blues came it wasn't the Bealtaine road that beckoned but

a way stretching across America.

"Hey man you gotta stay high," I'd say to my friend as we freaked

through California's Cill Ulta into Frisco's Falcarragh.

Your book lies shut on my breast, your heart beating under the skin

cover in the muscle of every word.

Oh man I feel them again, those highs on youth's Himalayas from coast

to coast we roamed together, free, wild, reckless:

A hitchhiking odyssey from New York to Frisco and down to Mexico

City.

A mad beat to our lives. Crazed. Hurtling down highways in speeding

cars, skidding over the verge of sanity on the wings of Benzedrine.

We crossed frontiers and we scaled dreams.

Celebrations at every turn of life's highway, binges and brotherhood

from Brooklyn to Berkeley; booze, bop and Buddhism; Asian verse;

telegrams from a Sierra eternity; marijuana and mysticism in

Mexico; frenzied visions in Bixby Canyon.

Orpheus emerged from every orifice.

O I remember it all Jack, the talk and the quest.

You were the wild-eyed poet walking free, searching for harmony,

searching for Heaven.

And although it is said there's no shortcut to the Gods you opened one

up now and then, harnessing your mind's Niagara with dope and

divinity.

And in those rapturous moments you generated the

light that you saw eternity by

And that guided you, I hope, the day of your death, home to Whitman,

Proust and Rimbaud.

My road is before me "a road that ah zigzags all over creation. Yeah

man! Ain't nowhere else it can go. Right!"

And someday, on the road of ailing sight and knotted limbs

Or a less distant day, perhaps

Death will face me Fate's Crossroads

My gentle companion across the frontier

And then, goddamit Jack, we'll both be hiking across eternity.

translated by Sarah Berkeley

Published in Heaven Poster Series #61

Ron Whitehead

the literary renaissance

1387 Lexington Road

Louisville, Kentucky

40206

USA

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:07:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>

Subject: test

test

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:39:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970515181337.20555U-100000@seka.nacs.net>

excuse the interjection,

as someone whose been on and off the list for more than a year now, i can

observe, isn't it funny that attempts to "stop wasteful posts" often just

creates a whole ongoing string of more wasteful posts, like arguments,

namecalling, debates as to what is or isnt relevent, and posts like the

one i'm writing which bathes in wastefulness.

insincerely,

Eric

-- Perhaps the only way we can stop ourselves from going to hell is to do

nothing to prevent it --

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> > Michael, i ask pardon to all the Beat-List!, chiedo perdono!,

> > are u interested in the UNIVERSAL knownledge of the matter?

>

> Maybe you should learn the universal language of netiquette, then. Load up a

> search engine and look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell it in

> Italian, because I'm sure there are translations -- so you can learn that

> its impolite and in bad taste to quote other people's email on a public

> forum without their permission. Same goes to flooding lists which you did

> here not too long ago.

>

> It is not my place (or desire) to police a list but this constant barrage of

> noise is wearing thin. Sure I looked at that '77 url you posted, but saw no

> relation to the list other than the words "william blake," and that article

> a while back (all in Italian) with the nice Ginzy photo, but come on! I know

> German, so should I post a shitload of German poetry to the list, or reprint

> articles from _Der Spiegel_ about Allen Ginsberg? Why draw the line there --

> how 'bout I send copies of "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen" -- Japanse

> translation -- to the list? It will look like noise to most readers, but the

> "UNIVERSAL knowledge" is somewhere in those bits!

>

> Other listers: am I missing something here?

>

> Rinaldo: gosh you're quick to address my complaint (sent to you just minutes

> before you posted to the list), but you've been great at ignoring other

> email I sent to you in the past asking you questions or to expound on other

> things you wrote. Guess I just wasn't interesting enough to share your

> universal knowledge then.

>

>

> Sick of noise and bad vibes, all too much lately,

>

> m

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:58:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject: AOL & Neal Cassady

Hello, I just made the big plunge to AOL, 30 days unlimited time free and all

that, and I was wondering since there are an endless amount of "newsgroups"

on AOL if any of you know of any beat places to hang out? BTW: Maybe Leon

can help me out with this, but how much did Neal change when he started

dropping acid? I know it has skewed (maybe not skews, enlightens?, who

knows) my perspectives, and the man had too have changed considerably. Just

wondering since I have been watching this video I got from KEY-Z productions

called Neal Cassady, Drive Alive. Some crazy, whacked out shit let me tell

you. Not worth, of course, the 29.95 I paid for it, but hell, I wanted to

see the man in action. Actually, it is pretty well done and I will watch it

more than once so it was worth it, but it seems to me that LSD just

intensified him or was he just a completely different person? Eh?

Thanks....

-George

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:29:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

Sorry (i am alittle - alot - late...)

I completely disagree with the idea that the Pranksters and others have to

get moving with the times. Their statement, as I see it, is not necessarily

about a particualar time in history, but rather about culture and lifestyle

... which has no boundries or limitations. It is about freedom and

expression and a true love for life, both good and bad, and dealing... it is

a message which i hope we can all learn from (wheather or not we choose to

follow it). they urge us follow ourselves and reject the things which are

thrown in front of us... we should seek things for ourselves...

that is a timeless message...

p.s. i have tickets to see dylan for the first time ever (for me he is a god)

and friends gave me similar speeches about his voice failing, etc. but he is

a legend regardless and i will appriciate him and his work forever

ciao, jeanne.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:31:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

oh mike...i could not agree with you more <sigh>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:12:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: AG's grave?? and Paterson Memorial

I heard recently that Paterson officials relented and will allow a public

memorial reading/service/remembrance for local "bad boy" Allen. Date is June

8th - and I will add information as I learn it.

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:51:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

In a message dated 97-05-15 11:53:58 EDT, Gerry wrote:

> I'm out for money and power, I'm a glory

>hunter, I'm too cheap to donate to a good cause, I'm a "nut," etc.

A "found poem" and, incidentally, a pretty darn good summary I think.

Well done, Gerry.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:50:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Solomon's Mishaps

In a message dated 97-05-15 11:44:54 EDT, you write:

<< I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. >>

If you check out the copyright page that book was first published by Beach

Books, Texts & Documents. They also published APO-33 by WSB. I don't believe

LF would have touched that book if Claude and Mary hadn't pointed the way.

I have fond memories of Carl visiting us here in Cherry Valley. He came to

fish at the Committee.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:55:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Motivations

I sure hope that the posts about the Kerouac Estate battle ebb rather than

flow, at least at the recent rate.

I just want to add that I have no doubt that Mr. Nicosea's motivations are

relitively pure -- pure as anything else in an all too cynical world. Anyone

who has read Memory Babe must at least grant that Mr. Nicosea knows his

subject well, perhaps he has become too close for comfort, and that he has a

genuine love for the best of the Kerouac literary legacy without turning a

blind eye to the flaws that Jack Kerouac and the rest of the human race

share.

Mr. Nicosea may still be wrong about many things. I have no doubt that Mr.

Anstee, Mr. Chaput and probably Mr. Sampus also love the Kerouac legacy and

the man himself. Why else would someone like Mr. Anstee amass a world class

collection? Why else would Mr. Chaput work so dilligently on the annual

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac celebration? And if John Sampus was ONLY motivated

by money, why would he not have sold off everything by now?

In the heat of the moment, let us not forget that Mr. Nicosea has devoted a

great part of his life to Jack Kerouac and has shared his work with all of

us. I thank him for it, and I thank him for his current efforts without

making ANY judgement about his claims, legal or otherwise. I also thank Ann

Charters, Tom Clark, Dennis McNally and the others who have done so much to

help us understand the life and work of Jack Kerouac. In addition, I thank

Mr. Nicosea for anything he ever did for Jan Kerouac, a fragile soul who was

dealt a very rough hand in life. The only thing I do not thank Mr. Nicosea

for is his well-demonstrated penchant for judgement of the motivations of

his detractors.

I'll save my judgements for the likes of George Will, Newt Gingrich, Irving

Kristol, Bill Bennett, Norman Podheritz and anyone else who wants to erase

the freedom that has come to us in the last 40 or so years of cultural

battle.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:58:29 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> May 15, 1997

>

> Mr. David Rhaesa wrote:

> "Once again, you're lumping from point A to point Q in a

> conspiratorial mode. Frankly, I don't understand WHY you feel a need to

> incorporate these conspiratorial arguments into your discourse."

>

> Dear David,

>

> Some all-inclusive conspiracy theories are wacko--like Oliver Stone

> having everyone from the mafia to the CIA to Fidel Castro conspiring to kill

> Kennedy.

> That doesn't mean smalltime conspiracies don't sometimes exist. The

> word is in the English language for a reason.

> A lot of the stuff on the Beat-List recently, a lot of the charges

> against me and Jan, had to come directly from Sampas.

> For example, the matter of Jan Kerouac selling her mother's warrant

> for child support was not public knowledge. It was known only to Jan, me,

> the dealer, and the Sampases and their lawyer, George Tobia, who purchased

> it. It was never in a news story or recounted at any Kerouac event.

> So how did it get up here if it wasn't fed to someone by Sampas?

> Curiously yours, Gerry Nicosia

Gerry--

It was sent to me via a backchannel not directly related to this

controversy. I could look up the source if I had to, but it was not a

Sampas. I have never met a Sampas, never been in Lowell or near it for

nearly 50 years. Everyone you mention knows someone, who knows someone,

who knows someone. Very little stays private if it is interesting. I

seriously doubt I have been chosen by the Sampas Casa Nostra to leak out

their little bits of information. I have never met Chapaut or Anastee

or anyone except on this list. I am a non player here. It is examples

like this that make me lean toward Chaput's conclusion as to your having

become a little unbalanced over this.

I am an ex academic and ex scholar. It would be nice if the archive

existed but certainly not essential. There is no Chaucer archive, no

Shakespeare archive, and those guys reputations are doing just fine.

The rest of it is greed. Greed for money. Greed for publication credit

or whatever. I just don't care.I would rather read Jack than worry

about whether Paul Blake got screwed or not.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:00:54 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>

> >Just to pipe in here....

> >I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

> >of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

> >"New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

> >of "October in Railroad Earth."

> >

> >This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide. So,

> >just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

> >over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac! Who'd a thunk it, eh?

> >

> >Best,

> >Kathleen

>

> This would have to be for very advanced ESL students.

>

> Most native american speakers would have trouble with this let alone a ESL

> student overseas.

Timothy,

Maybe you're selling them short. Is "October" that hard a read? If it

is so hard what is that much easier in the 20th century loose cannon.

Harder than Fitzgerald or Hemingway or Faulkner? Certainly not harder

than Faulkner.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:03:25 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: TRIUMPH OF THE WILL

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> "...ten minutes of a lone cowboy waiting

> in an empty trail station for the Sampas gang to show up."

> --James Stauffer

>

> Dear James:

>

> It's been over two weeks, and I'm still waiting. My grub's done run

> out, and all I've glimpsed so far are a few outriders.

> (P.S. Leni Riefenstahl beats Sergio Leone any day.)

> Gerhard Von Nicosia

Gerry,

But I'll take a good spaghetti western any day, and I thought that you

would be good played by Bronson, with that nice little harmonica lick,

and we could have Sampas be the baby killing Henry Fonda character--I

don't know who Claudia Cardinale is.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:58:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different [Naked Lunch in French]

In a message dated 97-05-15 12:35:48 EDT, you write:

<< Do you know if NL has been redone in French since then? >>

No I don't know, but I'll try to find out.

Pam

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:46:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

....

>two posts ago, you brought up oliver stone, you commented that this

>situation is not like an oliver stone but a real one, you reminded me

>and other readers that the word conspiracy is in the dictionary, then

>you continued to throw conspiratorial claims and Now ....

>

>

>Mister David Race Rhaesa

>

Dear Mr. Rhaesa: May 15, 1997

If anyone seems hot under the collar, I'd say it's you.

My reference to Oliver Stone was in answer to your talk about

conspiracies.

If you still have the history of this dialogue in your computer or

on hard copy, please check to see who used the word CONSPIRACY first. I'd

lay odds that you or Chaput used it before I ever did. If I'm wrong, I owe

you a dinner in Kansas City.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:39:33 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

>

> who was instructed last year that: the White Whale respresents all that is

> paradoxical, unpredictable, and uncontrolable in nature; and if one tries

> to say that it signifies something else, he or she is flat out wrong!

funny, i'd heard that the white whale symbolized the elusive phantom of

being and that everything else was wrong :)

david

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:43:22 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> ....

> >two posts ago, you brought up oliver stone, you commented that this

> >situation is not like an oliver stone but a real one, you reminded me

> >and other readers that the word conspiracy is in the dictionary, then

> >you continued to throw conspiratorial claims and Now ....

> >

> >

> >Mister David Race Rhaesa

> >

>

> Dear Mr. Rhaesa: May 15, 1997

>

> If anyone seems hot under the collar, I'd say it's you.

> My reference to Oliver Stone was in answer to your talk about

> conspiracies.

> If you still have the history of this dialogue in your computer or

> on hard copy, please check to see who used the word CONSPIRACY first. I'd

> lay odds that you or Chaput used it before I ever did. If I'm wrong, I owe

> you a dinner in Kansas City.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

no free dinner for me.

i used it before you i imagine.

i was hot. i felt that the Karmic referees missed a clipping foul.

obviously you didn't read it at midnight with Johnny Cash in the

background or it would have had a bit different perspective.

i'm out of it.

i hope you get the footnote in history you want and deserve. don't care

much how you choose to do it.

photocopiers kill trees

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:57:54 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: The horror! The horror!

Jeanne Vaccaro wrote:

>

> Sorry (i am alittle - alot - late...)

>

> I completely disagree with the idea that the Pranksters and others have to

> get moving with the times. Their statement, as I see it, is not necessarily

> about a particualar time in history, but rather about culture and lifestyle

> ... which has no boundries or limitations. It is about freedom and

> expression and a true love for life, both good and bad, and dealing... it is

> a message which i hope we can all learn from (wheather or not we choose to

> follow it). they urge us follow ourselves and reject the things which are

> thrown in front of us... we should seek things for ourselves...

> that is a timeless message...

>

> p.s. i have tickets to see dylan for the first time ever (for me he is a god)

> and friends gave me similar speeches about his voice failing, etc. but he is

> a legend regardless and i will appriciate him and his work forever

>

> ciao, jeanne.

Dylan is aging like a beautiful wine. as long as you don't expect to

hear an album repitition and enjoy spontaneous versions it should be a

treat. enjoy.

shalom,

david

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:03:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

...

>It [info about the warrant] was sent to me via a backchannel not directly

related to this

>controversy. I could look up the source if I had to, but it was not a

>Sampas. I have never met a Sampas, never been in Lowell or near it for

>nearly 50 years. Everyone you mention knows someone, who knows someone,

>who knows someone. Very little stays private if it is interesting. I

>seriously doubt I have been chosen by the Sampas Casa Nostra to leak out

>their little bits of information. I have never met Chapaut or Anastee

>or anyone except on this list. I am a non player here. It is examples

>like this that make me lean toward Chaput's conclusion as to your having

>become a little unbalanced over this.

>

>

>J Stauffer

>

Dear James, May 15, 1997

I trust you about the warrant info, but I am curious who your

"backchannel" was; perhaps you're not at liberty to say.

Before I commit myself to a loony bin, however, I do recall that the

day after Joe Grant stated on the Beat-List that he was going to print the

Paul Blake, Jr. letter, both Joe and myself got threatening telephone calls

from Mr. Tobia, Sampas's lawyer. Does that not seem as if Mr. Sampas has

his scouts out perusing the Beat-List for him? Or are we to assume he

simply reads it silently every day, and never responds? (Like the Deists'

version of God, the clockmaker who sits back, marveling at his own work.)

(That's a joke, Mr. Rhaesa, not part of the conspiracy theory, okay?)

Let me just add, James, that what I am is not "unbalanced"--at least

I haven't had anyone suggesting lately that I'm out of touch with

reality--but rather ANGRY. I watched one of the best friends I ever had,

Jan Kerouac, suffer needlessly for years before she died. And I'm not

talking about suffering from the kidney failure, which was bad enough.

I have people here pushing my buttons, claiming Jan said things she

never did, in effect lying about this woman now that she can't speak up for

herself any more, and it makes me even madder. I get the feeling that for

some people on the Beat-List, this is all a play with their favorite

characters, called, perhaps, SAMPAS AGONISTES. Well it's not a play for me.

Jan was a real person I watched go down to a tragic end--someone I cared

deeply about--and I believe with all my heart that her cause and her desires

were for justice and honor, not money, no matter how many people want to

believe that because it gives the story a better twist for them.

I'm still getting over the loss of Jan, and the grieving has been

hard, what with getting hit with a major legal action only months after her

death, by her ex-husband, and then having to deal with the major thefts from

the MEMORY BABE archive at the very same time. I certainly haven't

appreciated a lot of the cheap shots I've been getting here, and I wonder

how many of these flippant critics, if they had to deal with as much at once

as I have, would come out of it with their sanity intact.

I think I'm doing a pretty good job, all things considered.

I don't think I'm going to win any more converts here, so I'll take

a break for a while. I'm aware that making money is sexy; saving

manuscripts is not.

See you all on the Santa Fe Trail.

-- The Man With No Name

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:13:53 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

(Like the Deists'

> version of God, the clockmaker who sits back, marveling at his own work.)

> (That's a joke, Mr. Rhaesa, not part of the conspiracy theory, okay?)

a fairly good joke....

> See you all on the Santa Fe Trail.

> -- The Man With No Name

i'll stay at home with Matt Dillon and Festus ..... :)

david

p.s. best to read with "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" the best song for

grieving i've ever known. i respect the process of grieving and the

threats to sanity sincerely. i apologize if i have made your loss too

trying. i'm putting in a notice at the local library to buy your book

and the others mentioned. The only one on the shelf was McNally's so

i'm pleasantly enjoying his tale at the present.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:11:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: school and literature...

howl's in your school library

jeeez

props to that place

jeremy

----------

: From: Robert H. Sapp <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: school and literature...

: Date: Thursday, May 15, 1997 3:31 PM

:

: hello,

:

: at my school, only passing refernece to the beats is made; like, "and in

: the fifties, there was a group of people called beatnicks, who would sit

: in coffeshops and read poetry while beating bongo drums." And thats it.

:

: in the library, Ginsberg's Howl and The Fall of America are the only

: books by him there, and they are categorized as RESERVED, which means

: that they are kept in a shelf behind the checkout counter. "Fallof

: America" is missing. Howl rests there. Because its reserved, it can only

: be taken out for one night. Reserved books are the form of

: mini-censorship our school engages in, i guess so that no innocent child

: brosing through the poetry section will come across any "indecent" work.

: The Reserved books include Tim Leary's Flashbacks as well as Scietific

: books about drugs. if there was more beat literature at my school, itd be

: there too, but --

:

: adios, soory if this is boring,

: Eric

:

: On Thu, 15 May 1997, andrew szymczyk wrote:

:

: > hmmm,

: >

: > seeing that there's a lot of talk about school

: > programs, i feel that i need to budge in. i'm a junior in

: > high school right now, and not too long ago my american

: > lit. teacher became aware of my interest in the beat gen.

: > she already knew that i was reading more in my spare

: > time than most of the kiddies my age, but she was still

: > a little put off because of her experience with the beats.

: > she has never been a fan of kerouac because of his

: > apparent machoism to her, and other than that she

: > really hadn't dealt with more beat than she had to. i

: > tried to talk her into teaching a little from that era, and

: > she complied by promising me that she'd find some

: > appropriate poems that could be taught to the whole

: > class, but other than that she feels that her job would

: > be in danger. i must agree because there's just so

: > much that the small community in which i live can

: > handle. but after all of this she HASN'T deterred me

: > from delving farther into the literature.... in fact, she likes

: > to see and hear about what i'm reading, as long as it's

: > done on my own time. so i guess that as long as the

: > beats are mentioned in class and the students are

: > given fair awareness of them then i'll be happy.

: >

: > as a side note, we were made to watch a film

: > strip on walt whitman a little earlier in the year. the film

: > started going off on whom whitman has influenced

: > throughout the years, and as a picture of kerouac

: > surfaced on the screen i threw my hands up in joy. i

: > really don't think that anyone else in the class knew

: > what i was so happy about, but i suppose that that's

: > their loss.

: >

: >

: > andrew

: >

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:15:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

this is equally wasteful electronic sponge space

but i agree wit you robert

nobody really flames anybody

its just a hunk of ideas stepping on eachother

learn

dance

move on

----------

: From: Robert H. Sapp <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

: Date: Thursday, May 15, 1997 6:39 PM

:

: excuse the interjection,

:

: as someone whose been on and off the list for more than a year now, i can

: observe, isn't it funny that attempts to "stop wasteful posts" often just

: creates a whole ongoing string of more wasteful posts, like arguments,

: namecalling, debates as to what is or isnt relevent, and posts like the

: one i'm writing which bathes in wastefulness.

:

: insincerely,

: Eric

:

: -- Perhaps the only way we can stop ourselves from going to hell is to do

: nothing to prevent it --

:

: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

:

: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

: >

: > > Michael, i ask pardon to all the Beat-List!, chiedo perdono!,

: > > are u interested in the UNIVERSAL knownledge of the matter?

: >

: > Maybe you should learn the universal language of netiquette, then. Load

up a

: > search engine and look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell it in

: > Italian, because I'm sure there are translations -- so you can learn

that

: > its impolite and in bad taste to quote other people's email on a public

: > forum without their permission. Same goes to flooding lists which you

did

: > here not too long ago.

: >

: > It is not my place (or desire) to police a list but this constant

barrage of

: > noise is wearing thin. Sure I looked at that '77 url you posted, but

saw no

: > relation to the list other than the words "william blake," and that

article

: > a while back (all in Italian) with the nice Ginzy photo, but come on! I

know

: > German, so should I post a shitload of German poetry to the list, or

reprint

: > articles from _Der Spiegel_ about Allen Ginsberg? Why draw the line

there --

: > how 'bout I send copies of "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen" -- Japanse

: > translation -- to the list? It will look like noise to most readers,

but the

: > "UNIVERSAL knowledge" is somewhere in those bits!

: >

: > Other listers: am I missing something here?

: >

: > Rinaldo: gosh you're quick to address my complaint (sent to you just

minutes

: > before you posted to the list), but you've been great at ignoring other

: > email I sent to you in the past asking you questions or to expound on

other

: > things you wrote. Guess I just wasn't interesting enough to share your

: > universal knowledge then.

: >

: >

: > Sick of noise and bad vibes, all too much lately,

: >

: > m

: >

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:53:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: endings to legendary flame wars

I don't think I'll be able to come up with anything

to commemorate our recent flame war as imaginatively

as Rinaldo did with his famous Ninety Posts From Italy,

but the impending end of this war (and my worried sense that

the hostility level is still pretty high in general

around the old "L") ... well, it's reminding me of a post

my friend Jef Morlan once sent to a different list

he and I are both on, after this list went through the

contortions of its own epic and bitter flame war. Here's

what he sent. Maybe it'll help us all heal here too.

(NOTE: the following words are courtesy of Jef Morlan):

>>>What about the sweeping-generalizations crowd?

>>>

>>Without sweeping generalizations, most writers

>>would be out of a job.

>>

>>> Ah, yes they are. "He who can control the music of a society

>>>controls the minds of that society.." (Mussolini)

>>

>>Mussolini was lynched by his own people.

>>

>Yes, but for a *time* he could have all the teenage girls he wanted!

>"unless we force people to be cool"

> Absolutely! Let's be anarcho-fascists!

I was wondering if any others can feel the "pointed energy" coming

out of this thread? Why is this such a "pointed/charged" thread?

Does any of this really matter?

mmmm........I think I'll round it off this energy a little.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

(All together now!)

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

(ONE MORE TIME!)

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

(All together now!)

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I've been digging in the dirt a lot lately and one of

the many aspects of it I have enjoyed is that dirt

doesn't care who or what you are. With a little

love and attention, a *few* well chosen healthy

seeds, it will give/produce/create freely.

I like to think of the net as dirt.

We should choose carefully

what/where/when we plant.

(ONE MORE TIME!)

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

(All together now!)

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

(ONE MORE TIME!)

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

(All together now!)

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Ah, yes! What FUN! :)

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:03:13 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: endings to legendary flame wars

Levi Asher wrote:

>

> I don't think I'll be able to come up with anything

> to commemorate our recent flame war as imaginatively

> as Rinaldo did with his famous Ninety Posts From Italy,

> but the impending end of this war (and my worried sense that

> the hostility level is still pretty high in general

> around the old "L") ... well, it's reminding me of a post

> my friend Jef Morlan once sent to a different list

> he and I are both on, after this list went through the

> contortions of its own epic and bitter flame war. Here's

> what he sent. Maybe it'll help us all heal here too.

>

> (NOTE: the following words are courtesy of Jef Morlan):

>

> >>>What about the sweeping-generalizations crowd?

> >>>

> >>Without sweeping generalizations, most writers

> >>would be out of a job.

> >>

> >>> Ah, yes they are. "He who can control the music of a society

> >>>controls the minds of that society.." (Mussolini)

> >>

> >>Mussolini was lynched by his own people.

> >>

> >Yes, but for a *time* he could have all the teenage girls he wanted!

>

> >"unless we force people to be cool"

>

> > Absolutely! Let's be anarcho-fascists!

>

> I was wondering if any others can feel the "pointed energy" coming

> out of this thread? Why is this such a "pointed/charged" thread?

> Does any of this really matter?

>

> mmmm........I think I'll round it off this energy a little.

>

> :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

>

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

>

> (All together now!)

>

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

>

> (ONE MORE TIME!)

>

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

>

> (All together now!)

>

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

>

> :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

>

> I've been digging in the dirt a lot lately and one of

> the many aspects of it I have enjoyed is that dirt

> doesn't care who or what you are. With a little

> love and attention, a *few* well chosen healthy

> seeds, it will give/produce/create freely.

>

> I like to think of the net as dirt.

> We should choose carefully

> what/where/when we plant.

>

> (ONE MORE TIME!)

>

> :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

>

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

>

> (All together now!)

>

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

>

> (ONE MORE TIME!)

>

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> Schuap a do a do ah SQUEEEEE!

> do wap a doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!

>

> (All together now!)

>

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> SQUEEEE! op a doooodle!

> doodle doodle SQUEEEEE!!!!!

>

> :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

>

> Ah, yes! What FUN! :)

>

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

heeeeeee heeeeeeeee

snort

ha ha ha

aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa

david

p.s. Mussolini plagiarized that music line. :)

p.p.s. plagarism is basic to all culture ... plagiarized from Charles

Seeger .... plagiarized from some guy next to Charles at a deli once

p.p.p.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:09:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

Dear Jo Grant:

I have asked you twice now to remove errors in Gerry's essay that you are

running on your web page and twice you have refused. Now the reason is that

you do not know where to look on your own page. What's the address?, you ask.

Ok - here's the address:

www.bookzen.com/nicosia.html.

What's your excuse going to be now for keeping alive the b.s.?

Rod Anstee did not have precise knowledge of all transactions - what was sold

and who had bought them, as Gerry states in his essay. Gerry has already

discussed this matter with me during a phone conversation.

You are also keeping alive the BS story that J. Depp may have paid $50K for

one item. That is not true. Gerry discussed this matter wth me also.

I want all members of the Beat-L to know that although I respect Gerry's

passion for

his archive crusade, I believe that you are causing him harm by keeping the

errors alive.

I suggest that all Beat-L members look at both sides of this archive coin

before

making any decisions on where they stand on this issue. Just because Jo Grant

puts it on his web page does not mean that it is true.

A last comment for Jo Grant: any further discussion between us should be

carried out privately.

Jeffrey Weinberg

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:36:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Something completely different #2

At 07:51 AM 5/15/97 -0500, david rhaesa wrote:

>i enjoyed reading the varied posts from varied voices on the lists. it

>seems that the first thread (something #1) is partially devoted to

>whether students can handle the material, whether high schools should be

>burned and whatnot. this seems a relevant area to question in the

>process of determining whether to work for "incorporation" (rather than

>pushing) beat litearture into the high school curriculum.

>

>so far, the suggestions of "railroad earth" and "on the road" have been

>mentioned. there are some who feel that other materials might not make

>it by the school boards. that is probably a concern. it is more likely

>that one would be working towards the textbook editors at first.

>

>so I'm asking a second kind of question in "something completely

>different #2". Assuming, that we did want to put forth some effort in

>this direction, what besides "Railroad Earth" would be recommended

>suggestions to encourage being excerpted into Survey Type Readers of

>American Literature to provide a "taste" of this rich material.

>

>i seem to agree that secondary literature courses beyond the initial

>survey should be highly optional. Besides ON ROUTE, what beat materials

>seem possible to get on optional readings lists. This question probably

>involves considering community standards a bit more. Is Kerouac the

>only possible introduction the students could get their hands on in the

>classroom? It seems that Burroughs' material unless excerpted into a

>Burroughs' reader for this purpose would be nearly impossible to get

>past the moral guard. i'd be interested in others opinions on what the

>best types in each of these categories might be.

>

>i appreciate y'alls response. this is not an attempt to jump off the

>bridge at Big Sur concerning the "Something #1" thread. I'll take some

>time over the next day and begin to think more actively about all the

>comments and suggestions made and continue to post to that thread as

>well. i am only attempting to provide two different threads of focus on

>this matter.

>

>david rhaesa

>salina kansas

>

>not sure if i'm persona non-grata at the high school anymore or not.

>told the principal he was running a prison and not a school (a result of

>a bit of mania and having read too much Ivan Illich on education; and

>because it was TRUE). i think i'm accepted in certain parts of the

>building to do some local investigation.

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

railroad in oct. earth is a winner. how about watts/beat zen . . . or

ferlinghetti: starting from s.f. & coney island? i don't remember any of

these being too rugged for hi school. maybe even as a period piece for some

good discussion mailer's white negro? or how about we on this list come up

with some "suitable" stuff and put together some kind of "anthology" for

open study in schools? hmmmm....... how about it? once again we have an

opportunity to be constructive instead destructive with our collective

minds/imagination. gee, there's an idea, let's be creative & constructive.

ideas like this make me happy. in the words of rodney the king, "can't we

all just get along?" great to hear from the younger set with their opinions

and experience. I myself being a card carrying geek/dork in jr. high & high

school spent countless hours in the library discovering many great things

that nobody taught in class. of course when really do schools teach one to

think?

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:44:19 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> ...

> >It [info about the warrant] was sent to me via a backchannel not directly

> related to this

> >controversy. I could look up the source if I had to, but it was not a

> >Sampas. I have never met a Sampas, never been in Lowell or near it for

> >nearly 50 years. Everyone you mention knows someone, who knows someone,

> >who knows someone. Very little stays private if it is interesting. I

> >seriously doubt I have been chosen by the Sampas Casa Nostra to leak out

> >their little bits of information. I have never met Chapaut or Anastee

> >or anyone except on this list. I am a non player here. It is examples

> >like this that make me lean toward Chaput's conclusion as to your having

> >become a little unbalanced over this.

> >

> >

> >J Stauffer

> >

>

> Dear James, May 15, 1997

>

> I trust you about the warrant info, but I am curious who your

> "backchannel" was; perhaps you're not at liberty to say.

Gerry,

I'll dig back through my mail when I get time and try to find it. It

won't be easy. I am not organized enough to stick these mails into

files so there is a pile.

I really mean no disrespect toward your seriousness. Everyone's tone

gets heated, and I sincerely sympathize with your grief over losing Jan.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:49:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:50:29 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Something completely different #2

s.a. griffin wrote:

> >

> >

> railroad in oct. earth is a winner. how about watts/beat zen . . . or

> ferlinghetti: starting from s.f. & coney island? i don't remember any of

> these being too rugged for hi school. maybe even as a period piece for some

> good discussion mailer's white negro? or how about we on this list come up

> with some "suitable" stuff and put together some kind of "anthology" for

> open study in schools?

All good suggestions. I like the idea. I Beat-L high school anthology

or suggested reading list. I'd add a dollop of Snyder, say some of the

Myths and Texts poems.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:04:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

>: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

>: > Maybe you should learn the universal language of netiquette, then.

>Load up a search engine and look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell

it

>in Italian, because I'm sure there are translations -- so you can

>learn that its impolite and in bad taste to quote other people's email

on a

>public forum without their permission. Same goes to flooding lists which

>you did here not too long ago.

>: >

> It is not my place (or desire) to police a list but this constant

>barrage of noise is wearing thin. Sure I looked at that '77 url you

posted,

>but saw no relation to the list other than the words "william blake,"

and

>that article a while back (all in Italian) with the nice Ginzy photo,

but come on! I

>know German, so should I post a shitload of German poetry to the list,

>or reprint articles from _Der Spiegel_ about Allen Ginsberg? Why draw

the

>line there --how 'bout I send copies of "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen"

--

>Japanse translation -- to the list? It will look like noise to most

>readers, but the "UNIVERSAL knowledge" is somewhere in those bits!

>: Other listers: am I missing something here?

> Sick of noise and bad vibes, all too much lately,

>

> m

I just want Rinaldo to know that we do not all beleive in this crap

written above. I do not stnd behind this racist critique of your posts.

If you want to write in Italian- go for it. I cannot speak Italian (I

speak spanish so I roughly understand what you say) but that does not

mean I should stop you from writing. This is a open forum. Write however

you want.

To the author of this piece- write in german if you want. I will do what

I do with Rinaldo's posts when i cannot understnd them- I will delete

them without giving a thought. English is not the most important

language. He can write and speak however he wants.

You might do well to look up netiquitte yourself. Nowhere in any

ettiquette sources I am familiar with is it ok to make derogatory

innuendos about anothers language and/or heritage such as

"look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell it in Italian"

My two cents worth-

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:21:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To: <970516000913_155162182@emout19.mail.aol.com>

>Dear Jo Grant:

>

>I have asked you twice now to remove errors in Gerry's essay that you are

>running on your web page and twice you have refused. Now the reason is that

>you do not know where to look on your own page. What's the address?, you ask.

>Ok - here's the address:

>http://www.bookzen.com/nicosia.html.

>What's your excuse going to be now for keeping alive the b.s.?

Lighten up Jeffery,

You sent me the document address at 11:09 p.m. 05-15-97. At 12:58 a.m.

05-16-97 the changes were made.

I asked for the address not as an excuse, but simply to find out where the

information you complained about was located.

I made the changes not because you demanded that I do, but because I'm

giving you the benefit of the doubt. I trust that you have done what you

tell me you have done--discussed it with Gerry. I haven't heard from Gerry

on this issue yet....

Please understand that I have no problem with you. I don't know you. I'm

simply a retired laborer (a union worker) and a Deb's Socialist who's also

a Wobbly who has been on the road, admires and respects both Kerouacs, and

JK's comrades. I just want the Keroauc literary arvchives in a library,

safe and preserved. I'll keep anything to support that on my web site, I'll

walk a picket line and I'll demonstrate. The material is much too important

to have people wheeling and dealing and profiting by selling any part of

the collection.

They--the Sampas family--MAY own the collection. They may not.

If Sampas claims that he can prove Memere's signature on the will is not

forged, then let's give him the opportunity to do so.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:29:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To: <v01510101afa13a37c9f4@[128.125.224.159]>

>Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

>did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

Lazy webmaster? Nah.

Not true.

Unskilled, a novice, more at home with a wheel barrow loaded with paving

stones than computer technology, YEH. But not lazy.

Disorganized, not efficient in allocating my time, YEH. Those for sure. But

not lazy, and not a webmaster--yet.

You're taking too much for Granted.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:39:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Conspiracies

"Just because people say you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get

you!"

Who said this? Allen Ginsberg? ;-)

I have a feeling I'm about to piss a number of people off. So be it. I'm a

big boy. I can take my lumps.

We've all been witness to a lot of volleying back and forth these last few

weeks regarding the Great Estate Debate. We've seen namecalling (plenty of

it!), we've seen claims and counterclaims, we've seen some pretty clever

humor, we've seen a lot of disagreement and astonishingly (!) some honest

dialogue. I've got some pretty strong feelings about a lot of these things

and I'd like to share them with you.

1). Cease and Desist

I've heard more than one person say it's time to call off the dogs, this

thread has played out and certain folks seem damn tired of it. Usually these

come in the form of some snide or pernicious remark aimed at one of more of

the people doing most of the talking and somebody mumbles something about

"pet diatribes" or "infomercials".

I honestly don't see what the problem is here. If you don't want to

participate in this thread, then there are plenty of other threads to follow

like the Pranksters or Joy Kicks Darkness and if none of these suit your

fancy, then start up a new one! Correct me if i'm wrong but since AG died I

believe Bill Gargan cranked up the daily message capacity to 100 so I don't

believe we're gonna run out of space. So if you don't want to participate

then hit the delete button! That's why God invented it!

I'll tell you why you keep reading, though, most of you anyway. Because this

thread is damn interesting! Personalities and flame wars aside there's a lot

of stuff that's been learned here I bet you've never heard anywhere else.

And if some of it is honest disinformation, then so be it, someone who knows

the real scoop can correct the person who may think they know what they're

talking about. And it doesn't have to be with accusations of perpetuating an

"untruth". It can be as simple as someone saying "here's what I know".

So hit the delete button if you must, but better yet why not contribute? Say

something meaningful, take a position! It's easy to say "a pox on both your

houses". It's work to try to sort thru the muddle, especially when some

people do their best to try to obfuscate the real issues by tossing in

irrelevant asides or outrageous charges.

I'm going to do everything I can to keep this thread alive. Why? Because in

the time I've been on the list I haven't seen one other topic, with the

possible exception of our coming together as a group when AG died, that is

more important than this one. I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me one

other topic that we have ever discussed that can have a bigger potential

impact than Kerouac's Archives. And if you don't care about that, then focus

on the other threads!

2). Conspiracy Theories

Regardless of who used the word "conspiracy" first, I don't see why it's so

hard for people to believe Gerry Nicosia has felt conspired against. I don't

see anyone trying to counter his claims Brad Parker's hotel reservations were

cancelled or that John Sampas called Texas on John Lash's behalf or that

Viking "coincidently" didn't renew or cancelled his contract (or whatever it

was - must be my "foggy" memory) on Memory Babe a month after they signed a

six book deal with John Sampas. That is, after all, what a conspiracy is.

Two or more people joining together to the detriment of someone else.

Folks, let me tell you how I see it. Gerry Nicosia is the only one IN THE

ARENA! The rest of us sit on our easy chairs with our feet up and our

laptops on our knees giving an opinion here and there, pontificating about

the way the world oughta be, complaining that it is all so damn complicated

and "each side is as bad as the other only worse". And where does that get

anyone?

Gerry Nicosia has done something about this situation! He's taken action.

He's put his reputation and fortune on the line and guess what! he's gotten

results! Certain people have heard him, the courts have heard him. John

Sampas has stopped selling off Kerouac's archives (outwardly at least, and I

imagine most of us hope he's not doing it at all anymore).

And I can't imagine any of this has been easy for Gerry, either. I would

imagine he's been eating, breathing and living this thing for over five

years. Every day. You and I have been witness to it for a couple of weeks

in a passive way only, and then only if we decide to log on.

It grates on me to hear Chaput's scholarly arguments such as "you're a liar"

and the one line I'm sure all scholars use regularly "Go Fuck Yourself"

played out on the same level as Gerry's usually well thought out, reasoned

and cogent arguments. Does Gerry lose his cool sometimes? Sure. Has he

said some things he probably wishes he could take back? I imagine he has.

But he's contributed a hell of lot more than "you're a liar" and "na na na

na naa".

Gerry Nicosia is a force to be reckoned with. Anybody who's read MEMORY BABE

can tell you that. And what he says may not always be pretty, but it rings

true to me. He's shown the arguments of his opponents to be weak and

ineffective, not with his credentials (or his big heavy boob as Patricia

might), but with the strength of his argument.

Seriously, do you think Jan Kerouac filed this lawsuit on a lark? Do you

think she was sitting around the house one Sunday afternoon thinking, "Hmmm,

what should I do today? Take in a movie? A walk in the park? I know!

I'll sue John Sampas!" C'mon people, lawsuits are very serious business not

entered into lightly by most people.

I wish someone could tell me what I'm missing here - and with a serious

response, not a flippant aside. What is it about this thread that wears on

you? Is it that you feel left out? Then dive in! Ask questions. Pursue

possibilities. Play Devil's Advocate - but do it with an eye toward

discovering the truth! Not with an agenda of hiding what some may fear will

get out.

3). Scholarship

I don't know where these Scholarship Wars came from, but I can tell you what

I saw. On the internet, everybody's posts look equal. And that's fine, we

all have something to contribute. But when someone who's total investment in

a situation is casually looking over a few emails while watching the Disney

Channel and drinking a six pak makes a post it can carry the same weight as

the post of someone who has done their research and really knows what they're

talking about. And that's good in a lot of ways, but it forces the rest of

us to really examine the arguments. And some people are just too lazy to

make the effort and other people just want to be entertained! And one person

can put forth their all only to have what they say dismissed by someone who

doesn't care or wants to hurt them by quoting them out of context.

Case in point. A number of people have jumped all over Nicosia because he

admitted to the horrible crime that he is human and sometimes fallible. "I

sometimes go from memory" Gerry said and other people have tried to use that

to show he doesn't know what he's talking about or doesn't bother to check

his facts. What kind of crap is that? And at least he responds to the

challenges posed to him. Jeffery Weinberg never bothered to answer my

questions about Jack's raincoat and the "napkin sketch". Nicosia doesn't

dodge issues... he addresses them head on.

So when Nicosia clips off his credentials he's simply documenting why his

opinion is informed with regard to using original manuscripts verses xeroxes.

He's been trained in this, he's had experience. I don't think he's trying

to say he's better than anyone else although his "Send Me My Equal" post did

obviously come off a little strong but he apologized for that almost

immediately. And quite frankly that's the best his detractors have been able

to do... distract him for a short period to the point where he

counterattacked them at their own level. And yet no one still has made a

sound argument that he is wrong... only that they are tired of hearing it.

And I can understand that... if I had something to hide I'd be tired of

hearing it too!

4). Finale

I'd like to see something good come out of all this. And I think it can.

The argument that "there is nothing we can do, it'll be settled in the

courts" is weak in my opinion. That's giving up our own power to make

something happen. Every individual has the power to make something happen.

As a group we can raise our collective voices and DEMAND the truth. We've

learned some new things just in the last day or two. I didn't know Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! gets a portion of its funding from John Sampas. I think

that is an important issue and I wonder if that is why we haven't heard from

some of those people or if that's why Phil was so passionate in his defense

of John. And if this is "incorrect" I would hope someone would have the

decency of telling me it is in error as opposed to calling me a "liar".

Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light! Bringing more truth

to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

to trial.

I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died. And

maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

That's what I'm about! I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

see on it.

That's what I'm about. The issue is the archives.

Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory. He's fighting for you. And

you. And me.

And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will? We

have the power to investigate this. Do we have to be so fractured that we

can't stand to look at the truth?

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:07:52 +1100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Re: Neal's speed

Hello Beat-lers,

Here's some information from Richard White concerning Cassady, with regards

to an earlier post of his. Thank you Charley for getting him on the list

for a while. I asked for his permission to post this to beat-l.

A while back Richard White wrote about his personal experiences with Neal.

>Thanks for reading and responding. It's from an endless, unending and

>disjointed history of San Francisco sixties from someone who was reasonably

>detached. In my real life I'm a Gestalt theorist, a Clinical Director of

>Correctional Substance Abuse Services, a son, a father, a poet . . .

>

>The line about Neal doing work that others shouldn't have to do, etc., refers

>to how he applied strength and energy to living on the edge and in peoples'

>faces. Although he had his crashes, I never witnessed them. Every time I saw

>him he was soaring. It could be quite annoying. He also seemed to treat

>everyone he met with the same indiscretions: he was as busy with my young son

>as he was with me, as busy with a fallen bum as he was with a rising star.

>With Neal around, one not only needed to watch one's wife, one needed to

>watch one's ass, literally, that is.

>

>I'll offer you an anecdote that I don't think I've ever shared with anyone

>else. I first met Neal on Gough Street around 1963 or so. I was playing "roll

>the ball" in the hall with my three year old son and he decided to roll the

>ball into the adjoining kitchen. The ball rolled under the dining table above

>which sat three or four people; it came to a stop between short and knobby

>legs in square, wrinkled cotton pants. I could hear the rapid rap through the

>table top: it was coming from only one of the group, the guy who was

>providing pillars for the ball for which I fumbled, and I was fascinated by

>the velocity of his speech (and also singularly impressed with the content).

>I glanced up toward his crotch, don't ask me why, and viewed this enormous

>bulge running down the left pant-leg. At that moment, I thought, "My god,

>it's Neal".

>

>Richard

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:10:06 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Italian is beautiful, Italy is beautiful, you are beautiful.

live long and prosper,

make love not war

free speech

e pluribus unum

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:26:31 +1100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject: Ginsberg talking about Cassady compared to Cobain.

This is sort of late, but the night before I heard about Allen's death I was

reading an interview with Allen from a music magazine. Here's a bit from it;

(Interview by Stuart Coupe)

"I suggested to him [Allen] that before the phone call I'd been thinking

about the Beat Generation and how there was possibly a connection between

Neal Cassady...and someone like Kurt Cobain, both of whom took a lot of drugs...

"I don't think that Cassady was a suicide, and I don't think he was as

pained as Cobain," Ginsberg says. "Cassady was very exuberant and had a good

time. The problem was that towards the end...the LSD didn't do him any

harm. He smoked grass very strongly, but I think all his all-night cross

country driving, with the psychedelic bus and Kesey's Pranksters, I think he

took a lot of amphetamines. He went down to Mexico to unwind from that and

took some downers to calm the nerves and went out walking. I think he passed

a Mexican wedding where they plied him with some other things and the

combination did him in. But he was quite a vigorous guy and not so neurotic

really.

"But Cobain was a marvelous singer. I hadn't heard much of him until

towards the end of his life and then I heard his unplugged version of

Leadbelly's song and it was such a perfect vocal on that and i was really

moved. It was one of my favourite songs but I only knew Leadbelly's version

before that."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:34:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Michael McClure interview/Bricolage Celebration!

Sorry this is such short notice for anyone in the Seattle area, but my

friend Yves, who is in the new Bricolage as well as a part of this special

reading, only forwarded this to me today. But, hell, even if you can't make

it, the magazine will STILL have the Michael McClure interview in it.

Cheers,

Malcs

-----------------------------------

BRICOLAGE PRESENTS

BRICOLAGE 1997: THE 14TH ISSUE

Bricolage, the University of Washington's student literary arts magazine

proudly presents its 14th issue at a special reading at the University

Book Store (Second Floor, Main Branch, University Way) this Friday evening

at 7:00 p.m. Please join us in congratulating the writers whose works

will appear in this year's issue, including student writers:

Wendy Duke Kit Gianas

Jason Marc Harris Deniz Perin

Mary Krutsinger Michael Tuttle

Michal Carillo Sara Leslie Weiner

Barbara Graham Barker Amanda Laughtland

Laura Dabe Juliet Crawford

Yves Jaques Heather Wellons

Michael Ricci Donna Cheeseman

April Pierce Jerod Allen

Deborah Miranda

This year's Bricolage also features poetry by faculty writers Linda Bierds

and David Shields and an interview with internationally acclaimed "beat"

poet Michael McClure.

Copies of Bricolage will be available for sale at the reading for $6.00.

Get yours signed by the writers and staff!

Shana McKibbin Edward Jenkinson Tim Hering Melissa Wensel

Managing Editor Poetry Editor Fiction Editor Adviser

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 02:36:16 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: A Factual Question

Jerry is the voice of reason sometimes. i'm not willing to go as far as

playing devil's advocate in such a hot-furnace as this yet, but i will

ask a simple question for clarification.

Are the "Kerouac materials" currently the legal property of John

Sampas?

david rhaesa

Jerry Cimino wrote:

>

> "Just because people say you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get

> you!"

> Who said this? Allen Ginsberg? ;-)

>

> I have a feeling I'm about to piss a number of people off. So be it. I'm a

> big boy. I can take my lumps.

>

> We've all been witness to a lot of volleying back and forth these last few

> weeks regarding the Great Estate Debate. We've seen namecalling (plenty of

> it!), we've seen claims and counterclaims, we've seen some pretty clever

> humor, we've seen a lot of disagreement and astonishingly (!) some honest

> dialogue. I've got some pretty strong feelings about a lot of these things

> and I'd like to share them with you.

>

> 1). Cease and Desist

> I've heard more than one person say it's time to call off the dogs, this

> thread has played out and certain folks seem damn tired of it. Usually these

> come in the form of some snide or pernicious remark aimed at one of more of

> the people doing most of the talking and somebody mumbles something about

> "pet diatribes" or "infomercials".

>

> I honestly don't see what the problem is here. If you don't want to

> participate in this thread, then there are plenty of other threads to follow

> like the Pranksters or Joy Kicks Darkness and if none of these suit your

> fancy, then start up a new one! Correct me if i'm wrong but since AG died I

> believe Bill Gargan cranked up the daily message capacity to 100 so I don't

> believe we're gonna run out of space. So if you don't want to participate

> then hit the delete button! That's why God invented it!

>

> I'll tell you why you keep reading, though, most of you anyway. Because this

> thread is damn interesting! Personalities and flame wars aside there's a lot

> of stuff that's been learned here I bet you've never heard anywhere else.

> And if some of it is honest disinformation, then so be it, someone who knows

> the real scoop can correct the person who may think they know what they're

> talking about. And it doesn't have to be with accusations of perpetuating an

> "untruth". It can be as simple as someone saying "here's what I know".

>

> So hit the delete button if you must, but better yet why not contribute? Say

> something meaningful, take a position! It's easy to say "a pox on both your

> houses". It's work to try to sort thru the muddle, especially when some

> people do their best to try to obfuscate the real issues by tossing in

> irrelevant asides or outrageous charges.

>

> I'm going to do everything I can to keep this thread alive. Why? Because in

> the time I've been on the list I haven't seen one other topic, with the

> possible exception of our coming together as a group when AG died, that is

> more important than this one. I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me one

> other topic that we have ever discussed that can have a bigger potential

> impact than Kerouac's Archives. And if you don't care about that, then focus

> on the other threads!

>

> 2). Conspiracy Theories

> Regardless of who used the word "conspiracy" first, I don't see why it's so

> hard for people to believe Gerry Nicosia has felt conspired against. I don't

> see anyone trying to counter his claims Brad Parker's hotel reservations were

> cancelled or that John Sampas called Texas on John Lash's behalf or that

> Viking "coincidently" didn't renew or cancelled his contract (or whatever it

> was - must be my "foggy" memory) on Memory Babe a month after they signed a

> six book deal with John Sampas. That is, after all, what a conspiracy is.

> Two or more people joining together to the detriment of someone else.

>

> Folks, let me tell you how I see it. Gerry Nicosia is the only one IN THE

> ARENA! The rest of us sit on our easy chairs with our feet up and our

> laptops on our knees giving an opinion here and there, pontificating about

> the way the world oughta be, complaining that it is all so damn complicated

> and "each side is as bad as the other only worse". And where does that get

> anyone?

>

> Gerry Nicosia has done something about this situation! He's taken action.

> He's put his reputation and fortune on the line and guess what! he's gotten

> results! Certain people have heard him, the courts have heard him. John

> Sampas has stopped selling off Kerouac's archives (outwardly at least, and I

> imagine most of us hope he's not doing it at all anymore).

>

> And I can't imagine any of this has been easy for Gerry, either. I would

> imagine he's been eating, breathing and living this thing for over five

> years. Every day. You and I have been witness to it for a couple of weeks

> in a passive way only, and then only if we decide to log on.

>

> It grates on me to hear Chaput's scholarly arguments such as "you're a liar"

> and the one line I'm sure all scholars use regularly "Go Fuck Yourself"

> played out on the same level as Gerry's usually well thought out, reasoned

> and cogent arguments. Does Gerry lose his cool sometimes? Sure. Has he

> said some things he probably wishes he could take back? I imagine he has.

> But he's contributed a hell of lot more than "you're a liar" and "na na na

> na naa".

>

> Gerry Nicosia is a force to be reckoned with. Anybody who's read MEMORY BABE

> can tell you that. And what he says may not always be pretty, but it rings

> true to me. He's shown the arguments of his opponents to be weak and

> ineffective, not with his credentials (or his big heavy boob as Patricia

> might), but with the strength of his argument.

>

> Seriously, do you think Jan Kerouac filed this lawsuit on a lark? Do you

> think she was sitting around the house one Sunday afternoon thinking, "Hmmm,

> what should I do today? Take in a movie? A walk in the park? I know!

> I'll sue John Sampas!" C'mon people, lawsuits are very serious business not

> entered into lightly by most people.

>

> I wish someone could tell me what I'm missing here - and with a serious

> response, not a flippant aside. What is it about this thread that wears on

> you? Is it that you feel left out? Then dive in! Ask questions. Pursue

> possibilities. Play Devil's Advocate - but do it with an eye toward

> discovering the truth! Not with an agenda of hiding what some may fear will

> get out.

>

> 3). Scholarship

> I don't know where these Scholarship Wars came from, but I can tell you what

> I saw. On the internet, everybody's posts look equal. And that's fine, we

> all have something to contribute. But when someone who's total investment in

> a situation is casually looking over a few emails while watching the Disney

> Channel and drinking a six pak makes a post it can carry the same weight as

> the post of someone who has done their research and really knows what they're

> talking about. And that's good in a lot of ways, but it forces the rest of

> us to really examine the arguments. And some people are just too lazy to

> make the effort and other people just want to be entertained! And one person

> can put forth their all only to have what they say dismissed by someone who

> doesn't care or wants to hurt them by quoting them out of context.

>

> Case in point. A number of people have jumped all over Nicosia because he

> admitted to the horrible crime that he is human and sometimes fallible. "I

> sometimes go from memory" Gerry said and other people have tried to use that

> to show he doesn't know what he's talking about or doesn't bother to check

> his facts. What kind of crap is that? And at least he responds to the

> challenges posed to him. Jeffery Weinberg never bothered to answer my

> questions about Jack's raincoat and the "napkin sketch". Nicosia doesn't

> dodge issues... he addresses them head on.

>

> So when Nicosia clips off his credentials he's simply documenting why his

> opinion is informed with regard to using original manuscripts verses xeroxes.

> He's been trained in this, he's had experience. I don't think he's trying

> to say he's better than anyone else although his "Send Me My Equal" post did

> obviously come off a little strong but he apologized for that almost

> immediately. And quite frankly that's the best his detractors have been able

> to do... distract him for a short period to the point where he

> counterattacked them at their own level. And yet no one still has made a

> sound argument that he is wrong... only that they are tired of hearing it.

> And I can understand that... if I had something to hide I'd be tired of

> hearing it too!

>

> 4). Finale

> I'd like to see something good come out of all this. And I think it can.

> The argument that "there is nothing we can do, it'll be settled in the

> courts" is weak in my opinion. That's giving up our own power to make

> something happen. Every individual has the power to make something happen.

> As a group we can raise our collective voices and DEMAND the truth. We've

> learned some new things just in the last day or two. I didn't know Lowell

> Celebrates Kerouac! gets a portion of its funding from John Sampas. I think

> that is an important issue and I wonder if that is why we haven't heard from

> some of those people or if that's why Phil was so passionate in his defense

> of John. And if this is "incorrect" I would hope someone would have the

> decency of telling me it is in error as opposed to calling me a "liar".

>

> Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light! Bringing more truth

> to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

> to trial.

>

> I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

> maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died. And

> maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>

> That's what I'm about! I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>

> You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

> the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

> this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

> I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

> see on it.

>

> That's what I'm about. The issue is the archives.

>

> Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory. He's fighting for you. And

> you. And me.

>

> And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will? We

> have the power to investigate this. Do we have to be so fractured that we

> can't stand to look at the truth?

>

> Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:02:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Motivations

Howard,

I have no doubt Sampas, Chaput, Anstee and many others have a sincere love of

Kerouac's legacy, the man and his work. Obviously John Sampas knew Jack.

Don't know if Phil or Rod did or did not. I can give some ideas for

motivations, though.

1). Sampas hasn't sold off any items since the lawsuit was brought (that I'm

aware of and/or that is publicly known) (and if I'm wrong on that I'm sure

someone will point it out by calling me a "liar") because Jan and Gerry

focused public attention on his actions. By telling the world he was selling

things off they forced him into a position where he had to curtail that. My

worry is he's still selling things off, things the world never heard of and

never will. And if the will is judged to be forged those items will be lost

forever.

2). Rod Anstee may be embarrassed or feel guilty because he bought some of

these items from Sampas. Now I've got no truck with Rod on this. He's doing

what collectors do, acquiring things they're interested in. And I would

assume he bought anything he bought thinking they were legitimate purchases.

Nothing wrong with that, the same way there is nothing wrong with Jeffrey

Weinberg acting as a dealer on what I'm sure he believed to be legitimate

transations.

3). I've got no ax to grind with Phil either. Atilla says he's a good guy

and I've met Atilla and will accept his vouching for Phil. But if John

Sampas is a patron of LCK! and Phil's a part of that, it may be a reason why

he's in Sampas' corner. That and the fact that he knows John personally and

does not believe he could be capable of what he's being accused of.

My question is what are the motivations of so many who are silent? There's

been enough discussion on this so that everyone should have been able to form

an opinion. I'm just sorry to see so many unwilling to voice them. We can

fight over whether "Pink Floyd Rocks" but we can't fight over this? Saying

it's "too complicated" is a cop out. Saying "everybody is dirty" is a cop

out. Saying it's taking too long is a cop out. This situation is serious and

saying "I don't want to be bothered" is not going to make it go away.

Levi just asked on a message "Why all the pointed energy on this thread?

Does any of this really matter?" That's the Buddhist in him talking.

Well, it may not matter to old Jack and Jan and Gerard and Gabrielle and

Stella and Sammy. They're all up there "Safe in Heaven, Dead", probably

looking down knowing how it's all gonna turn out anyway, laughing at how

we're all locked into our positions as we cross swords over this.

But we're all down here on earth, and for the living and for the yet to be

living, I for one say, "Yeah. It matters."

Some things are worth fighting for.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:09:21 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>

Subject: Solomon's Mishaps

On Thu, 15 May 1997 19:50:54 -0400,

Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM> wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-15 11:44:54 EDT, you write:

>

><< I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

> that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. >>

>

>If you check out the copyright page that book was first published by Beach

>Books, Texts & Documents. They also published APO-33 by WSB. I don't believe

>LF would have touched that book if Claude and Mary hadn't pointed the way.

>I have fond memories of Carl visiting us here in Cherry Valley. He came to

>fish at the Committee.

>Pam Plymell

Thanks for specifying the publishing history. I found it amusing that

Ferlighetti published a book containing the lines:

I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

Cheers,

bs

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:24:24 +0200

Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Daniel Brdttemark <danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>

Subject: Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

This thread reminds me of a discussion we had on the list a while ago

about Kerouac translating the the french sections in Visions of Cody.

Why didn't he stick to english?

Why did he bother to translate them? Mixing languages is interesting

'cause the translation doesn't say the same thing. The nuances are

different and some feelings will get lost along the way. I understand

Rinaldo's dilemma, he wants to say so much but it doesn't come out the

way he wants it to in english, frustrating. Also when you use a

different language or dialect you do it for a reason. Everybody will not

understand it. Some people will bother to figure it out, others will

ignore it. I think mixing languages in poetry is great, in prose

sometimes not so great. But where do we draw the line

prose-poetry-listentry-conversation. Why draw the line anyway.

Tack for uppmarksamheten. Krama varandra pa listan (: (: (:

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:06:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Jerry's post

I would like to thank Jerry for the most recent of a series of very

level-headed summaries of the recent discussion on the list. I'd agree that

in two years on this list it's by far the most important topic discussed,

perhaps not the most fun (certainly not the most annoying) but important.

I would add one thing only. Someone wrote in and said 'let's forget about

all this estate stuff and just read the books'. Well until the whole damn

lot goes into public domain what you read and how it's presented and what's

left out and what is 'removed from print', what is translated and how,

what's allowed on web sites, what letters are published and how

censored/edited they are, will be determined by the estate and the

publisher. So how that estate operates should be a matter of concern to all.

The publication channel has clearly opened up since Stella Sampas died, but

if it's true as alleged that the Letters were edited under the estate's

control that's very sad indeed - but hardly unusual.

Yes, it is a sad irony of this society that of all the writers whose estate

should turn out to be problematic, it should be Jack Kerouac's. But that's

not a good enough reason to just let the matter drop. From my reading of

bios etc, it would seem that JK really felt he was leaving a great legacy of

writing to the world, to us, and it's important that those who care try and

influence as much as possible the best handling of that legacy.

Nick W-W

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:30:20 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Something completely different #2

s.a. griffin wrote:

>

> At 07:51 AM 5/15/97 -0500, david rhaesa wrote:

> >i enjoyed reading the varied posts from varied voices on the lists. it

> >seems that the first thread (something #1) is partially devoted to

> >whether students can handle the material, whether high schools should be

> >burned and whatnot. this seems a relevant area to question in the

> >process of determining whether to work for "incorporation" (rather than

> >pushing) beat litearture into the high school curriculum.

> >

> >so far, the suggestions of "railroad earth" and "on the road" have been

> >mentioned. there are some who feel that other materials might not make

> >it by the school boards. that is probably a concern. it is more likely

> >that one would be working towards the textbook editors at first.

> >

> >so I'm asking a second kind of question in "something completely

> >different #2". Assuming, that we did want to put forth some effort in

> >this direction, what besides "Railroad Earth" would be recommended

> >suggestions to encourage being excerpted into Survey Type Readers of

> >American Literature to provide a "taste" of this rich material.

> >

> >i seem to agree that secondary literature courses beyond the initial

> >survey should be highly optional. Besides ON ROUTE, what beat materials

> >seem possible to get on optional readings lists. This question probably

> >involves considering community standards a bit more. Is Kerouac the

> >only possible introduction the students could get their hands on in the

> >classroom? It seems that Burroughs' material unless excerpted into a

> >Burroughs' reader for this purpose would be nearly impossible to get

> >past the moral guard. i'd be interested in others opinions on what the

> >best types in each of these categories might be.

> >

> >i appreciate y'alls response. this is not an attempt to jump off the

> >bridge at Big Sur concerning the "Something #1" thread. I'll take some

> >time over the next day and begin to think more actively about all the

> >comments and suggestions made and continue to post to that thread as

> >well. i am only attempting to provide two different threads of focus on

> >this matter.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina kansas

> >

> >not sure if i'm persona non-grata at the high school anymore or not.

> >told the principal he was running a prison and not a school (a result of

> >a bit of mania and having read too much Ivan Illich on education; and

> >because it was TRUE). i think i'm accepted in certain parts of the

> >building to do some local investigation.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >

> >

> railroad in oct. earth is a winner. how about watts/beat zen . . . or

> ferlinghetti: starting from s.f. & coney island? i don't remember any of

> these being too rugged for hi school. maybe even as a period piece for some

> good discussion mailer's white negro? or how about we on this list come up

> with some "suitable" stuff and put together some kind of "anthology" for

> open study in schools? hmmmm....... how about it? once again we have an

> opportunity to be constructive instead destructive with our collective

> minds/imagination. gee, there's an idea, let's be creative & constructive.

> ideas like this make me happy. in the words of rodney the king, "can't we

> all just get along?" great to hear from the younger set with their opinions

> and experience. I myself being a card carrying geek/dork in jr. high & high

> school spent countless hours in the library discovering many great things

> that nobody taught in class. of course when really do schools teach one to

> think?

>

> xxxooo

> s.a.

ambitious thoughts. i wouldn't know much at all about the practical

matters. the only nightmare that hit me during the night is that such a

reader would probably be expected to have something of an answer to the

"ohhhhh NOOOOO" question. what is beat generation literature???? i

would suggest that such a thing be an epilogue and draw from the

previous rather than a prologue. perhaps the Holmes thing at the end

too????

it would be nice if such a reader could include excerpts from "the big 5

or was it big 15"?..... don't know whether grouping by individual or by

theme would make more sense ... something to meditate about i imagine.

i defer completely to y'all and your expertise in such a project. i'm

more than willing to attempt to help focus and re-focus matters somewhat

now and then. my voice would be more of someone reasonably new to this

subject matter and perhaps that is a useful one in thinking about the

prospective audiences.

a previous suggestion about cultural elements is also something which

could serve as guides to organizational schemes.

i must go to the post office for a registered letter. always get

nervous about such things.... :)

david rhaesa

p.s. i still am committed to working through the notions expressed on

something completely different #1 in a fairly systematic method of

response as soon as my brain hits systematic form again. this is

certainly a more important project for me than giving gerry nicosia

headaches.

Read while listening to "My Back Pages" ..... :) any letter can use a

soundtrack

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:59:53 +0200

Reply-To: smeraldo@iol.it

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo <smeraldo@IOL.IT>

Organization: Teatro Smeraldo

Subject: THE FALL OF AMERICA

Hello everybody!

This message to communicate you that on May 21 1997, in Milan (Italy) at

Circolo Porte Aperte, Via Gian Giacomo Mora 3, there will be a reading

concert titled "The Fall of America", after Allen Ginsberg's poetic

corpus. The reading will be accompanied by three great jazz musicians:

Beppe Aliprandi (alto sax), Daniele Cavallanti (tenor sax) and Tiziano

Tononi (drums). They will play jazz tunes after Ornette Coleman (free

jazz). I will be the reader; this one is the last reading concert of

mine after three previous dedicated to Beat poets (Ferlinghetti, Jones,

Kerouac). This concert has been performed last May, 2nd in Florence

(Italy) at City Lights Bookshop, after Lawrence Ferlinghetti's reading.

If there is someone especially interested in the relationship between

jazz and Beat poetry, contact me! I will be glad to talk and discuss.

This is our best way to honorate Allen: his voice will never die...

Love to everybody,

:.) Laura

--

Laura Moja

Ufficio Stampa

Teatro Smeraldo

smeraldo.press@iol.it

http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:39:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dale F. Smith" <dale@PCANYTHING.COM>

Subject: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this? This is

against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.) He

taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.) Do we really care if the

archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)? Should we be

stressed out? Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac? Or did he

learn anything. Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

but not much else. Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

Kerouac owned? Did they really understand him? Would Jack have paid a

million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat? Would he have paid a dime?

I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes. I think

what they are doing is good. I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

of Kerouac. But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book. In any

case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

care about the most.

Dale F. Smith

dale@pcanything.com

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

---W.B. Yeats

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:15:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Motivations

In a message dated 97-05-16 08:07:36 EDT, you write:

<< Some things are worth fighting for. >>

What if somebody started a fight on the Beat list, and nobody came?

Jul

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:31:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

At 01:29 AM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

>>did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

>

This question was addressed to a Jeffery Weinberg who makes a point of

indicating that he thinks it is important that someone named Johnny Deep did

not pay 50,000 for a raincoat.

It was not addressed to Jo Grant.

>Lazy webmaster? Nah.

>

> Not true.

>

>Unskilled, a novice, more at home with a wheel barrow loaded with paving

>stones than computer technology, YEH. But not lazy.

>

>Disorganized, not efficient in allocating my time, YEH. Those for sure. But

>not lazy, and not a webmaster--yet.

>

>You're taking too much for Granted.

>

>j grant

>

>

>

>

> BE ON THE WATCH

>for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

> O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

>http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

>

>Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

> display books free at

> <http://www.bookzen.com>

> 302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:47:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: From the mouth of babe

From, _Heaven & Other Poems_ - Jack Kerouac

a snippet from:

[BIOGRAPHICAL RESUME, FALL 1957]

"I have been writing my heart out all my life, but only

getting a living out of it now, and the attacks are coming

in thick. A lot of people are mad and jealous and bitter and

I only hope they also can be heard by an expanding

publishing program the size of Russia's. Because it's not

a question of the merit of art, but a question of sponteneity

and sincerity and joy I say. I would like everybody in the

world to tell his full life confession and tell it HIS OWN WAY

(Jack's caps, not mine) and then we'd have something to

read in our old age, instead of the hesitations and cavilings

of "men of letters" with blear faces who only alter words that

the Angel brought them..."

Jack Kerouac

~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Interesting tidbit in regards to the editing of "letters"

etc.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:41:38 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To: <199705161539.LAA00675@pcanything.com>

Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too: The best lack all

conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. I wasn't

gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

the Good Will. My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

capable of doing either, usually the latter. I always meant to climb a

mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

John <Be cool! And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

>Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this? This is

>against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.) He

>taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

>do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

>*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.) Do we really care if the

>archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)? Should we be

>stressed out? Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

>piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

>outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

>loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac? Or did he

>learn anything. Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

>but not much else. Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

>Kerouac owned? Did they really understand him? Would Jack have paid a

>million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat? Would he have paid a dime?

>

>I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes. I think

>what they are doing is good. I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

>of Kerouac. But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book. In any

>case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

>care about the most.

>

>

>Dale F. Smith

>dale@pcanything.com

>

>The darkness drops again; but now I know

>That twenty centuries of stony sleep

>Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

>

>---W.B. Yeats

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:47:28 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

John Mitchell wrote:

>

> Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too: The best lack all

> conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. I wasn't

> gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

> the Good Will. My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

> behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

> capable of doing either, usually the latter. I always meant to climb a

> mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

>

> John <Be cool! And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

>

i just got through scribbling JK in every piece of old clothing in the

closet. most was bought at salvation army's and other thrifts. it

might have been worn by Jack. it is probably more likely than the moon

being made of green cheese ..... please let me sell something in my JK

auction before the truth gets out :)

david rhaesa

read listening to Leonard Cohen "Jazz Police"

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afa258b65edc@[141.224.144.84]>

On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

>I wasn't gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes,

>found at the Good Will.

Just curious: how did you identify them as his?

Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? First time I saw it

was with the "ck" and I thought it looked weird & wrong, but now every time

I see "Kerouacian" I think it's goofy too -- every time I mentally pronounce

it "care-oo-ay-see-en."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:22:55 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS (the dark side of a beet)

In-Reply-To: <9705160710.AA24843@ellensburg.com>

dear friends beat,

everything is a-perfect, i'm a-perfect, u're a-perfect,

why the death of a mosquito is a-perfect? why u are

pulling the screw in the coffin, dark shame in the ground,

BROTHERS who loves a beet?, keep my head in the hands, come

faccio a scrivere ancora e ancora e ancora... Red Charlie

pop up Parker, red twilight, rosso tramonto veneziano,

i read JK in american or in italian, how many JK there are

in the worlds, cage is on the street... Red Cage... go on!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:16:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

In-Reply-To: <970516023952_-1967945910@emout14.mail.aol.com>

On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

>>>

>Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light! Bringing more truth

>to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

>to trial.

>

>I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

>maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died. And

>maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>

>That's what I'm about! I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>

>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

> I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

>see on it.

>

>That's what I'm about. The issue is the archives.

>

>Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory. He's fighting for you. And

>you. And me.

>

>And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will? We

>have the power to investigate this. Do we have to be so fractured that we

>can't stand to look at the truth?

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

Jerry,

You have really spelled it out. THE ISSUE IS THE ARCHIVES.

Although I have never met Gerry Nicosia (I plan to do so at the VVAW

Conference in Chicago soon) I admire him and will support him as he carries

out Jan Keroauc's wishes. I will go all the way, for Jan. My relationship

with her was all telephone, but during her last year we spoke frequently

and soon became confidants. She was so alone. She spoke of Gerry with

reverence and told me about how he had helped her again and again--even

during periods when the pain of her health problems made her impossible to

get along with.

Jan told me, "He [Gerry] has never asked me for anything. He and Ellen

have always come through for me when I needed help."

There were times when she would just sit with the phone in her hand and cry.

Shortly after I added the information about the NYU debacle she asked me if

I would edit out those parts that described her life when she was younger.

I called Gerry and asked him if he'd mind if I deleted parts. He pointed

out that those items were directly from Jan. I knew that, Jan had told me.

But she wanted to put it behind her. It existed in her book, but at this

point in her life she didn't want to see it. Gerry agreed. I edited it out.

It made her happy.

There's no need for me to reiterate my position on the archives of

historically important writers. I feel as strongly about the writings of

Meridel LeSueur as I do Jack Kerouac. I personally own more video taped

material of Meridel LeSueur than anyone. Sure it cost money of the years to

be there with a camera, time and money, and I own it. But I've told

Meridel's family that once I have the video edited and ready for

broadcast--Public TV wants to show it--everything, masters, dubs, final

product will be placed, at no cost, with the rest of her collections at the

Minnesota Historical Society, with copies to U of Iowa Special Collections.

To place a price-tag on what Meridel gave to me would be disrespectful to

her memory.

Meridel belongs to the people. Prolitarian to the core.

Kerouac belongs to the people. Prolitarian to the core? People with

literary backgrounds may have things to say about using that word to

describe him. I'd like to hear more.

Finally, I have had to make some modifications to my computer system since

connecting to the Beat List. Every day there is information I am compeled

to save for future reference. Ideas, insights, opinions--fascinating stuff.

And what a membership!

Every day, more people are agreeing that the Kerouac Archives must be

saved. The Beat-L will be a big part of making it possible.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:48:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To: <199705161631.JAA08195@hsc.usc.edu>

>This question was addressed to a Jeffery Weinberg who makes a point of

>indicating that he thinks it is important that someone named Johnny Deep did

>not pay 50,000 for a raincoat.

>

>It was not addressed to Jo Grant.

Thanks for the clarification.

jo

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:50:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

Dear Beat-L members:

For those of you that are concerned about the supposed editing of Kerouac's

letters by Charters before publication in the Viking Penguin edition, or for

those of you who may want to delve abit deeper into the topic of possible

censorship by the JK Estate of the volume of letters -

Rod Anstee wrote a long review (9-10 pgs) about "Selected Letters", including

his

research on editing by Ann Charters. This essay was published as an issue of

the Water Row Review a few years ago.

If you would like to receive a free copy of this essay, send me your request

by email.

This offer good only while the limited supply lasts.

Thanks -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:03:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

Jeffrey, Please!

I know we're on opposite sides of the fence on certain issues, but please get

me one of these. I truly am trying to conduct my own independent research as

has been suggested by so many.

Jerry Cimino

P.O. 48

Monterey, CA 93940

Thanks,

JC

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:50:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

At 02:50 PM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Dear Beat-L members:

>

>For those of you that are concerned about the supposed editing of Kerouac's

>letters by Charters before publication in the Viking Penguin edition, or for

>those of you who may want to delve abit deeper into the topic of possible

>censorship by the JK Estate of the volume of letters -

>

>Rod Anstee wrote a long review (9-10 pgs) about "Selected Letters", including

>his

>research on editing by Ann Charters. This essay was published as an issue of

>the Water Row Review a few years ago.

>

>If you would like to receive a free copy of this essay, send me your request

>by email.

>This offer good only while the limited supply lasts.

>

>Thanks -

>

>Jeffrey Weinberg

>Water Row Books

>Hi Jeff, May I receive a copy? Thanks, Paul....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:42:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

In a message dated 97-05-16 15:23:09 EDT, you write:

<< Jeffrey, Please!

I know we're on opposite sides of the fence on certain issues, but please

get

me one of these. I truly am trying to conduct my own independent research

as

has been suggested by so many.

>>

Hey, Jerry:

No problem, man. I'll put a copy of Anstee's essay in the mail to you today.

JW

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:46:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Rod Anstee's essay

I forgot to mention to the Beat-L:

I need your snail-mail address to send you Rod's essay on JK's Selected

Letters book. It is a booklet that we published a few years ago.

Thanks -

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

At 01:16 PM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

>>>>

>>Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light! Bringing more truth

>>to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

>>to trial.

>>

>>I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

>>maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died. And

>>maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>>

>>That's what I'm about! I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>>

>>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

>>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

>>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

>> I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

>>see on it.

>>

>>That's what I'm about. The issue is the archives.

>>

>>Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory. He's fighting for you. And

>>you. And me.

>>

>>And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will? We

>>have the power to investigate this. Do we have to be so fractured that we

>>can't stand to look at the truth?

>>

>>

The truth? The problem with stating the truth is that the truth will get you

blasted, threatened, ridiculed, and above all, doubted. I sincerely think

the idea of a conspiracy is ill-founded. The signature on the will looks

like any of the other items that are from Gabrielle Kerouac's hand AFTER HER

STROKE. I don't think matching it before she was an invalid is valid and

admittable as evidence.

>And it is not fair. I had the liberty of seeing letters and contracts from

the archive and now I can see what a horrible waste of time this all is. So

there...blast me. I could care less right now for explanations or ways to

make me look foolish or branded an arch-criminal. My educated mind tells me

different than all the propaganda you have been fed. I inquired, I saw, I am

now convinced. Goodnight all, Regards, Paul Maher of The Kerouac Quarterly...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:57:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS (the dark side of a beet)

At 08:22 PM 5/16/97 +0200, you wrote:

>dear friends beat,

>everything is a-perfect, i'm a-perfect, u're a-perfect,

>why the death of a mosquito is a-perfect? why u are

>pulling the screw in the coffin, dark shame in the ground,

>BROTHERS who loves a beet?, keep my head in the hands, come

>faccio a scrivere ancora e ancora e ancora... Red Charlie

>pop up Parker, red twilight, rosso tramonto veneziano,

>i read JK in american or in italian, how many JK there are

>in the worlds, cage is on the street... Red Cage... go on!

>

rinaldo

is

beautiful

eye am dumb

beet soup is sweet

john cage is

is on the

street

i am dumb

iam dumb

iamdumb

dumb

dum

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:57:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

At 12:41 PM 5/16/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too: The best lack all

>conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. I wasn't

>gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

>the Good Will. My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

>behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

>capable of doing either, usually the latter. I always meant to climb a

>mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

>

>John <Be cool! And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

>

>

>>Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this? This is

>>against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.) He

>>taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

>>do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

>>*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.) Do we really care if the

>>archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)? Should we be

>>stressed out? Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

>>piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

>>outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

>>loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac? Or did he

>>learn anything. Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

>>but not much else. Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

>>Kerouac owned? Did they really understand him? Would Jack have paid a

>>million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat? Would he have paid a dime?

>>

>>I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes. I think

>>what they are doing is good. I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

>>of Kerouac. But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book. In any

>>case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

>>care about the most.

>>

>>

>>Dale F. Smith

>>dale@pcanything.com

>>

>>The darkness drops again; but now I know

>>That twenty centuries of stony sleep

>>Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

>>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

>>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

>>

>>---W.B. Yeats

>

>

I have one of Micheline's grey funky hats that I wear upon occasion.

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:16:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: AG's grave??

In a message dated 97-05-15 14:17:51 EDT, you write:

> But wherever Louis is buried

newark NJ.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:16:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

Paul,

I applaud you coming forward to say what you know.

I'm not here to blast you or ridicule you and certainly not to threaten you.

Help me here, Paul. Educate me. I have not had the experience of seeing

Gabrielle's signature either before or after she had a stroke. Convince me

of what you know! What convinced you? Why do you believe the signature is

legitimate? I'm not doubting you... I simply want to know your reasons.

Also, how does this whole concept of Gabrielle's signature jive with what

Nicosia said two weeks ago about Gabrielle signing checks a year after she

was dead? As I recall he alleged that Paul Blake continued to send Gabrielle

money and somebody was cashing the checks - up to a year or more after she

was dead. Now I don't know if bank records still exist to that effect, but

if they do then you've got to admit a dead woman signing checks makes a

pretty strong case that somebody was in the habit of signing her name.

Also, could you or someone else enlighten me as to the details of the stroke?

When, how severe, etc. Quite frankly if I heard before that she had had a

stroke I don't remember it.

I'm not arguing with you here, Paul. I simply want to know why what you saw

convinces you.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:59:08 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: mthorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject: Estate Eclipse

It takes something big to put the redoubtable

Charlie Plymell in the shade. I have followed

Nicosia's postings closely. This is a serious

business. And I believe N. is right to wonder

why significant parties are not willing to argue

the point in this forum. It costs nothing to join

Beat-L.

Frankly, until Ann Charters etc. join the discussion

it's difficult to take a properly informed position.

When I wrote my biography of Tennyson, I was

able to make use of the marvellous Tennyson Centre

at Lincoln. Not ALL the mss. are there (others are in

Cambridge, and lots in America), but it does make

scholarly research easier when things are not too dispersed.

I can't imagine Ann Charters would want to argue with

that, so there is obviously more to this than meets the eye

or ear.

Michael Thorn

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:08:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Truth!

Paul Maher brought up the concept of Truth earlier.

His point reminded me of the line from Jesus Christ Superstar -

"But what is Truth? Is Truth unchanging law? We both have Truths. Are mine

the same as yours?" Hosannah Superstar.....

Truth is a major issue here. And just like two people can witness an accident

and describe different versions of the same event, two people of good faith

can see different Truths when looking at situations like this Estate Battle

and not be devious, not be coniving and not be crafty.

These are differences we should discuss, openly and candidly, without

namecalling and without accusations. And we should attempt to convince each

other that one particular version of the Truth might have more vailidity than

another. After all, if six people witness an accident and five of them say

car A was at fault and only one insists car B was at fault we might have

reason to suspect the case against car A is stronger than car B. And if

during the course of discussion we discover that the one person who blames

car B also happens to be the brother-in-law or what ever of the driver of car

A then there might be reason for that person to see things differently than

others and the case against car A is even stronger.

Truth can be a two edge sword, however. Because sometimes people can get

blinded by the Truth. Sometimes people get so focused on what they think

should be everybody's Truth that when the light starts to shine it comes out

that it is only their version of the Truth.

Case in point:

I'm sure a lot of you saw the movie A FEW GOOD MEN. It was out a few years

ago starring Jack Nicholson as a grizzled old Marine Lifer and Tom Cruise as

a Young Buck Military Attorney who goes nose to nose with Jack. Demi Moore

was in there somewhere, and no offense to her but she's a side issue to the

point here.

The story concerns itself with the apparent accidental death of some young

guy who happened to be stationed at Guantanamo which is the base Jack

Nicholson was in charge of when it happened. The highlight of the story is

when everybody flies into Washington DC for the big showdown. Jack Nicholson

swaggers up to the witness stand, full of bravado and bluster, confident this

young upstart Cruise can't touch him. After all, he's been in the military

longer than Cruise has been alive, he's been in combat, he helped saved the

world from the commies and Cruise is some wet behind the ears hotshot who's

never even held a rifle in his hands.

So Cruise is grilling Nicholson, making a few jabs, not getting anywhere and

ole Jack's got the jury eating out of his hands. And Cruise finally, in

desperation because he's out of tricks, makes a desperate accusation that

could cost him his career if he's wrong and possibly even land him in the

brig. But he puts it out there anyway, oblivious to the danger he's placing

himself in.

"Why are you asking this, Counselor?" Nicholson asks him.

"Because I want to know what happened down there!" Cruise shoots back.

"And why do you need to know that?" Jack cracks snidely.

"Because I'm after the Truth!" Cruise shouts.

"YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" Jack fires back.

And the courtroom is stunned into silence because now it is evident that

there is a story to tell, and Nicholson proceeds to tell it, with the full

confidence that every one will see it his way... see his version of the

Truth. And the Truth does come out and while the audience and the jury are

sympathetic with Jack's version of the Truth, they also know he's wrong. His

version of the Truth is flawed and when he's convicted he can't undertsnd why

- how can the others not see the Truth he sees?

I'm wondering how many Jack Nicholsons there may be on this list.

I'm wondering how many people are convinced their version of the Truth is the

only version.

Tell your story. Together with mine and everyone else's maybe we can see

things more clearly.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:19:41 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS (the dark side of a beet)

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> dear friends beat,

> everything is a-perfect, i'm a-perfect, u're a-perfect,

> why the death of a mosquito is a-perfect? why u are

> pulling the screw in the coffin, dark shame in the ground,

> BROTHERS who loves a beet?, keep my head in the hands, come

> faccio a scrivere ancora e ancora e ancora... Red Charlie

> pop up Parker, red twilight, rosso tramonto veneziano,

> i read JK in american or in italian, how many JK there are

> in the worlds, cage is on the street... Red Cage... go on!

rinaldo,

i don't comprehend a nickel's worth of Italian, but i read your Italian

poetry anyway. without comprehending, i think i still catch a bit of

understanding and certainly some of the beauty.

i got your postcard today of Pound's centre of the universe.

beautiful. i showed it to my mother this morning (she'd been to venice

once) and she says she has some cards somewhere of the barren Kansas

plains and will give me one to send to you sometime.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:29:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: An Introduction

Hello,

My name is James Marshall. I've been a fan of the beats since I read

_The Dharma Bums_ in grade twelve (prior to that I enjoyed the beats in

certain songs also). Now I'm a fourth year English major and an aspiring

novelist. After reading _The Dharma Bums_ I went on a Kerouacky reading

spree which led me to read some of his friends works as well. I've never

had the opportunity to study Beat literature in any of my classes and it

looks like I'll be graduating without said opportunity. Uh, I just realized

that I'm probably punctuating far too formally for a Beat List so bop de dot

dot dot my apologies.

Been following the list for a few days now and the whole estate

controversy interests me 'cause I'da thought those humanuscripts would be in

a library vault by now somewhere near Lowell but then I remembered that I

don't think when I don't have to anymore 'cause I got this aneurysm from

thinkin and I had to fix it with a pair of scissors.

The Beats influenced my early writing and now I find myself in the

mirror and using Burroughs-like organic metaphors in one particular piece

that I pretend to be writing and I say pretend because I can't think of a

better word and because I don't really love writing even though I do but

usually it's as painful as piercing that aneurysm was. I also found myself

emulating the lifestyle you know the drug use but I don't emulate anymore or

at least I don't take drugs anymore with the exceptions of excessive amounts

of caffeine, nicotene and alcohol but those drugs don't hurt you do they

they only cause cancer and liver damage and I have home remedies for that.

I treat my lungs with my microwave oven and several cleverly placed mirrors

and as for my liver well that's no longer a problem if you know what I mean.

Gone. It and me. Looking forward to hearing more of what you guys talk about.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:58:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Rod Anstee's essay

Jeffrey,

Please, yes, thank you! My address is:

Antoine Maloney

1525 Wrexham Avenue

Montreal, Quebec H3J 1B2

Hope you still have some.

Antoine

**********************************

>I forgot to mention to the Beat-L:

>

>I need your snail-mail address to send you Rod's essay on JK's Selected

>Letters book. It is a booklet that we published a few years ago.

>Thanks -

>Jeffrey

>

>

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:26:29 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400 from <stutz@DSL.ORG>

On Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400 Michael Stutz said:

>On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

>

>>I wasn't gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes,

>>found at the Good Will.

>

>Just curious: how did you identify them as his?

>

>Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

>like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? First time I saw it

>was with the "ck" and I thought it looked weird & wrong, but now every time

>I see "Kerouacian" I think it's goofy too -- every time I mentally pronounce

>it "care-oo-ay-see-en."

Lose the K

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:42:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Rod Anstee's essay

Hi Jeffrey:

please send Rod's essey. Thanks

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:43:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: Looking For Jack: The Literary Influences of Jack Keroua

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970503003705.00664cf4@pop.pipeline.com> from "PAM" at

May 2, 97 08:37:05 pm

Would the 'author' of the LOOKING FOR JACK email

send their private email address to me off-line at carl@world.std.com?

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:10:09 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Tom Clark

Hello Dave,

Unfortunately, Tom really could use the money via benefit or what-

ever. His health is very bad and the medical bills out weigh the

wallet. I'll be seeing Bly on June 4th, and maybe-just maybe, we

can come up with some plans. St. Paul, is a very conservative and

anal town. Outside of a select few-usually square, poets are frowned

upon and there's very little support. One of the better features we

have is a sub-culture of poets and writers that avoid the above main-

stream creeps that run the show. Some very well known writers and

artists live in and around the area-without notice or hype! So that's

cool. At any rate, I really was hoping for Tom's sake in regards to

the Jim Carroll benefit. It's nice to know that he's in peoples

thoughts-and thanks for the info and work on your end.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:22:08 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: burning down a little house

i've been going through some old notebooks and paper scraps and i came

across something i'd written some obscure notes about.

it was at River City Reunion and something about a group meeting in the

country outside of Lawrence (i have some reference to burroughs and

ginsberg pissing together in the woods and the storyteller telling me

that a camera would have been nice).

anyway, there was something about a small model of a house or something

and that the group stood around while the small little house model was

set into flames.

does anyone know any more about this tale? is it mere legend? what was

the deal with burning down the little house? was there some

significance symbolic or otherwise?

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:16:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

> >On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

> >>

> >>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

> >>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

> >>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years

ago.

> >> I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

> >>see on it.

> >>

Why did Kerouac write on rolls of paper? I guess I always imagined him

plugging away at one of those old manual typewriters. Were the rolls

easier to come by, leftovers from printing presses?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:39:08 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

Diane Carter wrote:

>

> > >On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

> > >>

> > >>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll

for

> > >>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized! Here I was looking thru

> > >>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years

> ago.

> > >> I was fascinated! Tears welled up in my eyes. I read every word I could

> > >>see on it.

> > >>

>

> Why did Kerouac write on rolls of paper? I guess I always imagined him

> plugging away at one of those old manual typewriters. Were the rolls

> easier to come by, leftovers from printing presses?

adding paper at the end of each page breaks the flow ... i bet Jack

would love word processors. he kind of turned the old typewriter into

one in a way.

david rhaesa

p.s. that's what i've heard ... no firsthand knowledge ... only meet

Jack in my less sane moments.... :)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:21:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Rod Anstee's essay

The Anstee piece is on the way, daddy-o

JW

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:44:00 -0400

Reply-To: corduroy@earthlink.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>

Organization: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

Subject: Reseller Search Page?

Comments: To: "antiweb@pobox.com" <antiweb@pobox.com>

Comments: cc: The Bohemian Ink <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

Someone sent a URL over the list awhile back that enabled people

to search used books offered by a large number of resellers. I

have searched high and low for this email, through my bookmarks,

and even the web-- with no luck at all..

If someone knows this URL I would GREATLY appreciate the location!

..cR

--

__________

.........| Bohemian Ink: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

.o..o..o.|

.........| christopher d. ritter

--------.| - corduroy@earthlink.net -

==|_| ||

==[===] || "There is a struggle going on for the minds of

|___| || American people. Every form of expression is

--------.| subject to the attack of reaction. This attack

..KRUPS..| comes in the shape of silence, persecution,

.........| and censorship: three names for fear."

======== - Circle, 1948 -

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:06:27 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

s.a. griffin wrote:

> >>---W.B. Yeats

> >

> >

> I have one of Micheline's grey funky hats that I wear upon occasion.

>

And that is a funky look.

James Stauffer

beeten but not bowed

> xxxooo

> s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:55:59 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Lowell, from another slant

Dear Beat-L,

We've been hearing so much Lowell politics, that I thought I would share

a poem from Billy Collins, who is a friend of mine and Robert Peters

from our time at Univ. of Calif., Riverside. Not a Beat, Billy, but a

nice touch.

LOWELL, MASS.

Kerouad was born in the same town

as my father, but my father never

had time to write "On the Road"

let alone drive around the country

in circles.

He wrote notes for the kitchen table

and a novel of checks

and a few speeches to lullaby

businessmen after a fat lunch

and some of his writing is within

me for I house catalogues of jokes

and handbooks of advice

on horses, snow tires, women,

along with some short stories

about the deadbeats at the office

but he was quicker to pick up

a telephone than a pen.

Like Jack, he took a drink bu

beatific to him meant the Virgin Mary.

He called jazz jungle music

and he would have told Neal Casssady

to let him off at the next light.

(from "The Apple That Astonished Paris" University of Arkansas Press.

1988.)

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:14:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Durand <LCKerouac@AOL.COM>

Subject: Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

Experienced and emerging writers are invited to submit written works in

competition for the 9th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. This Prize

will consist of a $500 honorarium and the invitation to present the prize

manuscript at a public reading during the annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

Festival to be held in Lowell, Massachusetts from October 1 through October

5, 1997.

For more information, visit http://members.aol.com/LCKerouac/festival.htm

Look for the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! website, coming soon...

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:02:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In a message dated 97-05-16 14:23:17 EDT, you write:

<< Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? >>

I think its Kerowackoian.

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 06:40:20 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-16 14:23:17 EDT, you write:

>

> << Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

> like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? >>

>

> I think its Kerowackoian.

> enjoy, Attila

Care(uh)WACKion

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:48:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Rod Anstee's essay

In-Reply-To: <970516154605_1821370566@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "Jeffrey

Weinberg" at May 16, 97 03:46:07 pm

Jeffrey--Please send a copy of the essay. Thanks.

Tony Trigilio

40 Queensberry St., #19

Boston, MA 02215

> I forgot to mention to the Beat-L:

>

> I need your snail-mail address to send you Rod's essay on JK's Selected

> Letters book. It is a booklet that we published a few years ago.

> Thanks -

> Jeffrey

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 01:34:09 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Tom Clark

Hello Jeanne,

Jim Carroll did a benefit for a Tom Clark-not the writer, Tom Clark.

Probably a friend of Carroll's, I don't know. Tom-the writer, is a

friend of mine who could use a little help. Do they still book blues-

men at the Bottom Line? I haven't been out in NYC in a number of yrs.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:30:33 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: HUNTER S. THOMPSON booksigning (fwd)

thot folks here would be interested in this...

yrs

derek

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:54:25 -0700

From: BOOKSMITH <read@booksmith.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: HUNTER S. THOMPSON booksigning

On Tuesday June 24th at 6pm, legendary gonzo journalist HUNTER S.

THOMPSON will be signing his new book, "The Proud Highway: Saga of a

Desperate Southern Gentleman" (hardback, $29.95) at The Booksmith in San

Francisco! (For more information, check out http://www.booksmith.com)

Subtitled "The Fear and Loathing Letters, volume 1" Thompson's latest is

a literary milestone. For the first time, the private and most intimate

correspondence of America's most influential journalist is made public.

The book begins with a high school essay written in 1955 - when Thompson

was perhaps too wise a teenager, and takes us through 1967, when the

publication of "Hell's Angels" made the author an international

celebrity (and nearly resulted in his death). In between are letters to

Norman Mailer, Tom Wolfe, President Lyndon Johnson, Nelson Algren, Ken

Kesey, Kay Boyle, Joan Baez, Charles Kuralt and many others. Some of us

here at The Booksmith have read this new book - and we can tell you that

it is great - perhaps his best book in some time.

For fans, this is an incredibly rare opportunity. If you can't attend

this extraordinary event, and would like to purchase

autographed copies of Hunter S. Thompson's "The Proud Highway," please

let us know as soon as possible. We are expecting demand to be great

(especially as Thompson rarely does book signings - he lives in a

fortified compound!). For your convience, please let us note that the

"The Proud Highway" sells for $29.95. Shipping is $4.50 for the first

copy and $1.00 for each additional book. Multiple orders are welcome and

there is no surcharge for an autographed copy.

Allen Ginsberg drew more than 400 people to The Booksmith, Anne Rice had

them lined up around the block, Ray Bradbury entranced all with his

stories, Timothy Leary packed the store. Hunter S. Thompson, we feel,

may be the biggest event ever at The Booksmith. Please join us if

possible.

_____________________________________________________________________

The Booksmith

1644 Haight Street (between Clayton & Cole)

San Francisco, California 94117

(800) 493-7323 -- phone

(415) 863-8688

(415) 863-2540 -- fax

http://www.booksmith.com/

email: read@booksmith.com

"One of the strongest websites in the business." - PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:45:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

I would like to get a copy...Thanks.

George Russell

PO Box 10667

Bainbridge Island, WA.

98110

Thanks again!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:09:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battl

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97051619280949@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400 Michael Stutz said:

> >On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

> >

> >>I wasn't gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes,

> >>found at the Good Will.

> >

> >Just curious: how did you identify them as his?

> >

> >Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

> >like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? First time I saw it

> >was with the "ck" and I thought it looked weird & wrong, but now every time

> >I see "Kerouacian" I think it's goofy too -- every time I mentally pronounce

> >it "care-oo-ay-see-en."

>

> Lose the K

>

Who ckares?

just kidding,

Eric

rhs4@crystal.palace.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:03:59 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE,

DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ,

PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.

K E R O U A C

IL DOTTOR SAX

Libro primo

FANTASMI DELLA NOTTE

DI PAWTUCKETVILLE

1

L'altra notte ho sognato che stavo seduto sul mar-

ciapede di Moody Street, Pawtucketville, Lowell,

Massachusetts,... Qui a farmez ma porte? Parsonne voyons donc.

GOD READS THIS.

DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ

THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ

THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, GOD READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.

DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ

THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ

THIS. thake me by hand, GOD, around the midnight, GOD i send u a

letter, GOD if ever u read this, WHY U CREATES MYSELF?, WHY I BORN?,

THIS DON'T READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ

THIS DON'T READ, PLEASE fantasmi agghiaccianti, fredde, COLD,

streets italiane, tears, cerchietti, bracelets, ASE, GOD READ THIS.DON'T

READ, PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS.T READ, PL

DON'T READ, PLEASE, god thake by hand Pakistani, WHY I BORN? WHY I BORN?

WHY I BORN? WHY I BORN? WHY I BORN? WHY I BORN? god thake by hand OLD wo/men,

god thake by hand pacemaker's lawyer, god thake by hand that tatoo GIRL,

god thake by hand by handby handby handby hand

WHY I BORN? WHY I RAT?

WHY I CLOUD? WHY I SQUEKING?

WHY? WHY? ever read me!

R I N A L D O

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:11:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battl

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970517150805.24212A-100000@crystal.palace.n et>

Bien c'est pas'l diable plesant.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:39:23 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truth!

In-Reply-To: <970516180816_-130076203@emout15.mail.aol.com>

Now that you mention it , I kinda see myself like Jack Nicholson, more like

the Easy Rider one in his football helmet or the 5 Easy Pieces one trying

to order a reality sandwich from Big Waitron. But I'm not sure my

resemblance to Jack is the Truth even as I see it. But more and more I

find that my version of the Truth tends to be the one I most enjoy when

feeling sorry for myself. It's nice to be a consolation to yr own elf.

(Thanks for the plot review and that great line: "You couldn't handle the

truth!" I remember an old white haired Presbyterian preacher in 1962

preaching about how everybody wants to run off to seek The Truth On the

Road of Life, who then declared: "We already know more of The Truth than

we are willing to put into practice!" Ain't that Han-Shan--the ole timey

Dharma Bum with the sake belly pressing against his Merry Prankster &

Grateful Dead BeatList T-shirt? I sometimes remind myself that I already

know more of the truth of Jack Kerouac than I am willing to put into

practice [green tea, pork 'n' beans heated in the can, hershey bars], hence

am not obsessed all that much about seeing additional Dead Sea Scrolls from

and about him.) // John M.

(James S., when you get time, please send me an electronic baloney sandwich

from that little deli that used to be in Bolinas. Plus cheese. Or is it

all quiche now? And one of those weird stones with the perfectly round

holes swirled into them that you used to be able to find on the Naked Beach

nearby.)

>I'm wondering how many Jack Nicholsons there may be on this list.

>

>I'm wondering how many people are convinced their version of the Truth is the

>only version.

>

>

>Tell your story. Together with mine and everyone else's maybe we can see

>things more clearly.

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:41:51 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Truth!

In-Reply-To: <l03020903afa3eaa3973a@[141.224.144.84]>

hey,

De Vito in the cuckoo nest is a must, mybe reconsider

the beat experience? De Vito is a beat?.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:47:05 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97051619280949@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>On Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400 Michael Stutz said:

>>On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

>>

>>>I wasn't gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes,

>>>found at the Good Will.

>>

>>Just curious: how did you identify them as his?

They weren't tongue-tied. // John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:45:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Lorraine Perrotta <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Reseller Search Page?

CR-

I'm replying to the list in case anyone else is interested. Try

www.interloc.com. You can search by author title etc., they have some crazy

number of books listed for sale, many at reasonable prices, like 2 million

books. Happy shopping to you.

Lorraine

At 11:44 PM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Someone sent a URL over the list awhile back that enabled people

>to search used books offered by a large number of resellers. I

>have searched high and low for this email, through my bookmarks,

>and even the web-- with no luck at all..

>

>If someone knows this URL I would GREATLY appreciate the location!

>

> ..cR

>

>--

>

>__________

>.........| Bohemian Ink: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

>.o..o..o.|

>.........| christopher d. ritter

>--------.| - corduroy@earthlink.net -

> ==|_| ||

>==[===] || "There is a struggle going on for the minds of

> |___| || American people. Every form of expression is

>--------.| subject to the attack of reaction. This attack

>..KRUPS..| comes in the shape of silence, persecution,

>.........| and censorship: three names for fear."

> ======== - Circle, 1948 -

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:56:04 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth!

John Mitchell wrote:

>

> Now that you mention it , I kinda see myself like Jack Nicholson, more like

> the Easy Rider one in his football helmet or the 5 Easy Pieces one trying

> to order a reality sandwich from Big Waitron.

>

> >I'm wondering how many Jack Nicholsons there may be on this list.

> >

well i'd say that i'm a combination of Jack in The Shining and Jack in

Batman with a dash of Hoffa for good measure.

went to see Batman tripping and knew the script would have Batman win so

i got up and left when the Joker was winning and Batman was ... kaput.

TRUTH

tactical

retreat

um ...

tantalizing

humility

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:11:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Svevo on Joyce

Hello all. Just received this from the James Joyce mailing list. Can anybody

help? I'd be much obliged.

Malcolm

----------

From: Sheadel@aol.com[SMTP:Sheadel@aol.com]

Sent: Saturday, May 17, 1997 2:00 PM

To: rossman@mail.utexas.edu; j-joyce@lists.utah.edu

Subject: Svevo on Joyce

I am getting ready to sell a copy of Svevo on Joyce published by City lights

Books press.

Does anyone have any ideas what this might be worth or where I could find

out?

Thanks,

Kelly Nolan

sheadel@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:22:20 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth!

John Mitchell wrote:

>

> Now that you mention it , I kinda see myself like Jack Nicholson, more like

> the Easy Rider one in his football helmet or the 5 Easy Pieces one trying

> to order a reality sandwich from Big Waitron. But I'm not sure my

> resemblance to Jack is the Truth even as I see it. But more and more I

> find that my version of the Truth tends to be the one I most enjoy when

> feeling sorry for myself. It's nice to be a consolation to yr own elf.

> (Thanks for the plot review and that great line: "You couldn't handle the

> truth!" I remember an old white haired Presbyterian preacher in 1962

> preaching about how everybody wants to run off to seek The Truth On the

> Road of Life, who then declared: "We already know more of The Truth than

> we are willing to put into practice!" Ain't that Han-Shan--the ole timey

> Dharma Bum with the sake belly pressing against his Merry Prankster &

> Grateful Dead BeatList T-shirt? I sometimes remind myself that I already

> know more of the truth of Jack Kerouac than I am willing to put into

> practice [green tea, pork 'n' beans heated in the can, hershey bars], hence

> am not obsessed all that much about seeing additional Dead Sea Scrolls from

> and about him.) // John M.

>

> (James S., when you get time, please send me an electronic baloney sandwich

> from that little deli that used to be in Bolinas. Plus cheese. Or is it

> all quiche now? And one of those weird stones with the perfectly round

> holes swirled into them that you used to be able to find on the Naked Beach

> nearby.)

>

John,

The image of Jack in the Easy Rider Helmet works for me.

You may egg me on into a Bolinas trip. Want to see again the beach

where Welch sets "Wobbley Rock", and the deli needs to be checked out,

god knows what their doing now, quiche is probably long dead too, and

take a tour of the naked beach and stop for a few drinks in Stinson and

then try to encapsulate the view of the Zen farm in Green Gulch. I feel

myself gassing up the car already. At the Ginzy memorial Joanne Kyger

talked about making Allen a literary map of Bolinas, and how to get from

her house to Don Allen's and Armam Saroyan's, and on and Allen's joy in

planning to complete the whole Bolinas poet tour.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls fit so well with the suicidal intensity of the

Essenes. All Really Good Truths are Infinitely Malleable, say I.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:09:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Gerry Nicosia

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@earthlink.net>

Mr. Nicosia,

I've been closely following the discussion of the Kerouac estate and

your many posts. By this time I have a perfectly clear idea of your point of

view. I don't want to burden you with anything that will look like an

attack, but I do agree with Race that the conspiratorial tone injected into

many of your posts is way overdone. You should NOT feel that you are subject

to attack on every front from those on this list with you.

We are with you, BUT I'd like to think that many of us, in the

absence of decisive facts, are also anxious to hear all fourteen sides of

the argument - both the facts and the opinions since, in fact, they can't be

disentangled. We are in the midst of a national election here in Canada and

one of the most irritating/ennervating (...if that's possible at the same

time) is the formulaic response of the candidates in any and all situations.

They have their message and they trot it out. You generally have more than

just the formulaic message about the conspiracy, but at this point I think

we get it and don't have to be beaten over the head with the conspiracy in

every post.

I remain intensely interested in learning all there is to learn

about the estate and Kerouac's background. I'm already hunting for "Memory

Babe" to read after I finish "Desolation Angels" by McNally. So please don't

be deterred by any of what I've said. Please keep as active as you've been

in educating/propagandizing us. Regarding that I posted a message this past

week looking for explanation/elaboration of the Sampas family members...who

was who and particulary who John and Jim Sampas were. If you can help there

I'd be happy to send it to you again off list.

Regarding "Memory Babe", is it truly out of print and out of stock

or will I find it with some looking....and is there one other book of that

ilk that you would recommend? I've read Charters' book and a number of

others...what do you recommend?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:17:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth

Truth is an ethereal entity. A platonic ideal. Doesn't exist other

than as a word. Even that's debatable. Like reality. Subjectivity is

where it's at man.

Kerouac's speech at Brandeis University, November 6, 1958; he addresses

the question "Is there a Beat Generation?": "...The question is very silly

because we should be wondering tonight: Is there a world?... Because there

is really no world... you'll find out".

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:41:57 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Anstee's review?

Hello Jo,

You must have the wrong Richard in regards to Anstee's review. Unless

the review is about me-stranger things have happened. I was having

coffee at Starbucks and a friend dropped by my table, saying, nice

review on you in SPR. I had know idea what he was talking about until

I picked up a copy and seen the spread. I dropped by bookzen last

night (a first time for me) and loved it! As a small publisher and

writer it made me feel real good inside to see all the wonderful books

and authors.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:46:41 -0400

Reply-To: corduroy@earthlink.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>

Organization: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

Subject: RETurn of the Bohemian!

Comments: To: The Bohemian Ink <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

Comments: cc: Bil Brown <bil@orca.sitesonthe.net>,

Bob Holman <MouthMight@aol.com>, Dan Levy <danlevy@panix.com>,

Jeffrey Michael Richards <jmricha1@midway.uchicago.edu>,

"John S. Hall" <JOHNSHALL@aol.com>, Lee Ranaldo <Eyemote@aol.com>,

Steve Silberman <digaman@hotwired.com>

THE BOHEMIAN INK www.levity.com/corduroy THE BOHEMIAN INK

New and Revised for the Digital Age, the Bohemian Ink

d=E9buts (once again) with a little techno under its paunches!

After appearing on internet magazines, commercial sites,=20

and underground rags across the infobahn, the Bohemian Ink

comes back stronger than ever with an amazing interface=20

guaranteed to fill your literary desires-- from slam to

experimental prose, out-of-print literature to books=20

only a mother would look at, nothing hits the spot like a

bit of the Ink right where the doctor ordered.=20

Aside from the new, the old and steady still survives with

literary collections of authors and events from the old=20

to the new. Bohemians, beatniks, slammers, and old iron-side

authors still abound, with authors such as Jack Kerouac,=20

Lee Ranaldo, Richard Brautigan, Raymond Carver, Diane=20

di Prima, and many many more. New sections include the

Burning Man Festival, the Harlem Renaissance, and=20

introduction to the Beat Generation by Levi Asher, and

a special section compiled by Jennifer at Conari Press

on the Women of the Beat Generation, with special attention

to ruth weiss, as well as Carolyn Cassady, Anne Waldman, and

Joanna McClure.

So stop on by! And if you've completed this announcement

with that annoying announcer guy's voice ringing in your

ears, rest assured that you've caught the mood of this

blatent form of self-promotion! Ain't it bohemian?

THE BOHEMIAN INK www.levity.com/corduroy THE BOHEMIAN INK

..cR (aka Critter/Corduroy)

--=20

__________ =20

.........| Bohemian Ink: http://www.levity.com/corduroy

.o..o..o.| =20

.........| christopher d. ritter

--------.| - corduroy@earthlink.net -

=3D=3D|_| || =20

=3D=3D[=3D=3D=3D] || "There is a struggle going on for the minds of=20

|___| || American people. Every form of expression is =20

--------.| subject to the attack of reaction. This attack

..KRUPS..| comes in the shape of silence, persecution,

.........| and censorship: three names for fear."

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - Circle, 1948 -

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 04:23:01 -0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject: Promotion of Second Beat magazine

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

Hi, my name is Thadeus D'Angelo and I've got something to say. I would like

to offer you a chance to get Second Beat magazine, a poetry based Beat

zine. It is very fresh and small press now, but is going through revamps as

we speak. Hopefully it will be online soon. Any questions, e-mail me at

2ndbeat@telapex.com. For subscriptions or submissions too.

Thanks,

Tadeus D'Angelo, Camelia City Books

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:26:49 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Truth

In-Reply-To: <199705180317.UAA26106@freya.van.hookup.net>

this white

sky blur

myself

> Truth is an ethereal entity.

> James M.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:51:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Svevo on Joyce

In-Reply-To: <01BC62ED.CCD7D7C0@sea-ts3-p28.wolfenet.com>

>Hello all. Just received this from the James Joyce mailing list. Can anybody

> help? I'd be much obliged.

>

>Malcolm

>

>----------

>From: Sheadel@aol.com[SMTP:Sheadel@aol.com]

>Sent: Saturday, May 17, 1997 2:00 PM

>To: rossman@mail.utexas.edu; j-joyce@lists.utah.edu

>Subject: Svevo on Joyce

>

>I am getting ready to sell a copy of Svevo on Joyce published by City lights

>Books press.

>

>Does anyone have any ideas what this might be worth or where I could find

>out?

>

>Thanks,

>

>Kelly Nolan

>sheadel@aol.com

I got some help not long ago from a book: The ABC of Book Collecting by (I

think) Carrter. Also, call reference at public of University library for

help. Also, call Special Collections at any university for some help.

Bottom line for things like this is the Reference Desk at any library.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:25:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

forever blunder

salvage

f o r g e t

the blue

----------

: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: Truth

: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

:

: this white

: sky blur

: myself

:

:

: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

: > James M.

: >

: >

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:55:01 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Boston area events (fwd)

anyone interested in all this??

derek

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:32:29 -0400

From: me <me@my.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: Boston area events

The Brattle Theatre in Harvard Square will have an Allen Ginsberg and

friends" Beat Film Festival this spring starting May 20 going on every

Tuesday. Following is a schedule of films to be shown. Also please reply

if this info is actually useful to anyone or if this NG is read by

anyone who actually cares about the beat generation anymore.

Some of these are films tangentially related, and obviously missing

is "Pull my Daisy" which was recently shown at the Boston Institute

for Contemporary Art.

May

20 The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg

7:45,9:30 dir.-Jerry Aronson 1993

w/ Gins.,Burroughs,Kesey,Leary,Mailer,Baez

27 Growing up in America

4:15,7:55 dir-Morley Markson 1987

6:00,9:40 What Happened to Jack Kerouac

dir-R.Lerner L.MacAdams 1985

June

3 Paul Bowles

4:30,7:40 dir.-C.Warnow R.Weinreich 1993

5:50,9:00 Half Moon (1995)

3 Paul Bowles stories

10 Burroughs (1984)

4:00,8:00 documentary (?)

5:45,9:40 Naked Lunch (1991)

17 Lenny (1974)

4:00,7:30 about Lenny Bruce, 50s night club comic

6:10,9:40 Lenny Bruce:Performance Film (1973)

24 Who Killed Teddy Bear? (1965)

4:00,7:45 movie about 60's night life

5:50,9:30 The Beat Generation (1959)

B/W detective film

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:21:34 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Truth

In-Reply-To: <9705181529.AA10833@jane.penn.com>

a Pakistan screms in the bed!

the hearth is lost,

my god, we're u?

At 11.25 18/05/97 -0500, you wrote:

>forever blunder

>salvage

>f o r g e t

>the blue

>

>----------

>: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

>: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>: Subject: Re: Truth

>: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

>:

>: this white

>: sky blur

>: myself

>:

>:

>: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

>: > James M.

>: >

>: >

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:24:31 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Svevo on Joyce

In-Reply-To: <v03007801afa4c6dc0647@[156.46.45.83]>

la coscienza di zeno e' stato un libro nel quale lo

scrittore creava in talia le teorie di freud e forse

nei sogni dreams e nella scrittura dei sogni draem-writing

versus creative writing is a lot of sensoe in the middle of

an elevator that's stopped in the middle of a building...

yrs rinaldo.

* a beet *

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:42:04 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth?

On a warm but scattered cloud balconey.

"What if clouds are explosions from military experiments?"

"Huh?"

"I mean, what if the government has found a way to stop time and blow stuff

up in the sky and then just start time again so it looks like the clouds

have always been there?"

"Why would they do that?"

"You know the military."

"Yeah."

"Or maybe it's some sort of alien thing."

"Like Star Trek."

"Yeah like Star Trek."

"Like a really long episode of Star Trek."

"Yeah."

"Okay. Say it is a government conspiracy and the military and / or aliens

are involved. Why do the clouds or explosions move across the sky at what

seems to be a steady pace?"

"The wind stupid."

"Okay. What if the wind is caused by some sort of giant land based or outer

space fan-like things which defy all we know about current technology?"

"I never thought of that. Okay. I've got one for you. Why is the sky blue?"

"Because that's how I feel."

"Weird. I thought it was because that's my favorite color."

"No. It's because that's how I feel."

"Oh."

"Let's go inside. I'm getting the creeps."

"You're forgetting about infra-red technology. And they could have that

shit perfected by now so they could see through walls just like looking at you."

"Yeah. Nevermind. Let's wait for sunset. I got a couple ideas about that."

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:56:25 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth?

James William Marshall wrote:

>

> On a warm but scattered cloud balconey.

> "Huh?"

what if blow sky-just-cloud (something long) episode conspiracy cloud

explosions move wind is giant never-thought, sky blue inside, creeps

infra-red could shit perfected by see through looking Never-mind.

wait for a couple

"i get it"

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:19:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Boston area events (fwd)

In a message dated 97-05-18 13:06:27 EDT, you write:

<< Also please reply

if this info is actually useful to anyone or if this NG is read by

anyone who actually cares about the beat generation anymore. >>

Yes, we care, this is the type of information I like to see because many

times things happen in your own backyard that you don't even know about.

thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:50:03 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

At 11:25 AM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>forever blunder

>salvage

>f o r g e t

>the blue

>

Blunders

Engineered in coofffeeee shops

Forgetting universal humanity

You babies beautiful were innocent,

now killing colors?

Then forget the Red, White and Green too.

Just see black and white, and spam.

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:14:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: ruth weiss

Saw ruth weiss, poet, beat, read the other day backed by a guy on bass. She

says that she was one of the innovators of reading poetry to jazz, back in

1956. (she doesn't say originators). She had a nice little workshop before

her reading where 5 of us just sat around and talked and bs'ed about the

beats, San Fran in the 50's, and motivations for writing.

Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

answer later,

enjoy, Attile

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:33:43 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gerry Nicosia

In-Reply-To: <97May17.230954-0400_edt.586065-231+1806@skywalker.microtec.net>

Antoine--

Thanks for putting so well into words what some of us have felt without

being able to express so genuinely and respectfully.

John M.

P. S. To save virtual space in the Great Closet of Time, I am attaching an

American haiku for Rinaldo that came to me like a blinding flash of

caffeine satori in the Hard Times Cafe this morning.

The Am. Haiku

Tears

Too big

For grief

Too small

For a career

>Mr. Nicosia,

>

> I've been closely following the discussion of the Kerouac estate and

>your many posts. By this time I have a perfectly clear idea of your point of

>view. I don't want to burden you with anything that will look like an

>attack, but I do agree with Race that the conspiratorial tone injected into

>many of your posts is way overdone. You should NOT feel that you are subject

>to attack on every front from those on this list with you.

>

> We are with you, BUT I'd like to think that many of us, in the

>absence of decisive facts, are also anxious to hear all fourteen sides of

>the argument - both the facts and the opinions since, in fact, they can't be

>disentangled. We are in the midst of a national election here in Canada and

>one of the most irritating/ennervating (...if that's possible at the same

>time) is the formulaic response of the candidates in any and all situations.

>They have their message and they trot it out. You generally have more than

>just the formulaic message about the conspiracy, but at this point I think

>we get it and don't have to be beaten over the head with the conspiracy in

>every post.

>

> I remain intensely interested in learning all there is to learn

>about the estate and Kerouac's background. I'm already hunting for "Memory

>Babe" to read after I finish "Desolation Angels" by McNally. So please don't

>be deterred by any of what I've said. Please keep as active as you've been

>in educating/propagandizing us. Regarding that I posted a message this past

>week looking for explanation/elaboration of the Sampas family members...who

>was who and particulary who John and Jim Sampas were. If you can help there

>I'd be happy to send it to you again off list.

>

> Regarding "Memory Babe", is it truly out of print and out of stock

>or will I find it with some looking....and is there one other book of that

>ilk that you would recommend? I've read Charters' book and a number of

>others...what do you recommend?

>

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:53:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

Because of e.e.cummings.....

....Her shift key was broken? ...she could only afford half-height

typewriter ribbons? ...her version of Word 6.0 was a beta version and was

not caps-capable? ...she is secrtly related to derek beaulieu and marie

countryman and they were all seperated at birth?

.....her position on capital punishment? I give up!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:29:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry Nicosia

John,

Thanks for the thanks John. By the way, I will be closely examining

the shoes in MY closet to see if I might have inadvertently bought an old

pair of Jack's....you say the defining characteristic would be that they

won't be tongue-tied? I'll get right onto it!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:27:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

so the steering column spins

by the scanning bird

wearing a hat of fudge

----------

: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: Truth

: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 12:21 PM

:

: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

: the hearth is lost,

: my god, we're u?

:

: At 11.25 18/05/97 -0500, you wrote:

: >forever blunder

: >salvage

: >f o r g e t

: >the blue

: >

: >----------

: >: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: >: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: >: Subject: Re: Truth

: >: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

: >:

: >: this white

: >: sky blur

: >: myself

: >:

: >:

: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

: >: > James M.

: >: >

: >: >

: >

: >

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:11:46 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

In-Reply-To: <970518161423_1955119747@emout02.mail.aol.com>

>

> Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

>

simply cause capitals cost too much

same with punctuation

sale at woolworths on lower case

buy one get rest free

and caps were clear cut in 80s leaving few left

in the wild

and who wants

to use force fed and steroided caps?

freerange so much better

but rarer and harder to find

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:21:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

In-Reply-To: <970518161423_1955119747@emout02.mail.aol.com>

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

> Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

because she wants to be like da levy? ee cummings?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:27:50 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different ....

Robert H. Sapp wrote:

>

> an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

> idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

> for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

> experience, having beat lit taught in a structured school situation would

> be a disaster. though it would create more exposure, i think Beat stuff

> would be better served for "Optional" assignments rather than the core

> curriculum. i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

> pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

> teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

> discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

>

> who knows,

> Eric

>

it seems that the strictures of the environment might be contradictory,

but it might be precisely why the beat lit could reach through to some

students who are alienated in the current atmosphere.

i think you're on target concerning optional readings for full length

novels, i don't think this is necessarily inconsistent with the notions

presented elsewhere for creating some form of a reader which could be

incorporated (as opposed to pushed) into the core curriculum.

it seems that the high school setting is due to get past the Eisenhower

era and incorporation of this literature would be a fitting part of such

a move.

again, it seems that such measures always depend on the quality of the

teachers and the learning atmosphere available. providing teacher's

resources seem a significant aspect of the various projects which have

been mentioned. even well-intentioned teachers may need information

which can assist them to be informed on the subject matter.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:33:25 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different ....

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Robert H. Sapp wrote:

>

> > i still think a lot of highschool english is prostituted

> > pounding strict nonsense into the minds of the silly kiddies style of

> > teaching and this might, as i see it, ruin some of the effect of, say,

> > discovering On the Road when suggested by a friend youtrust.

>

> Totally exactly. Beat stuff is still fresh -- it's still more relevant than

> older lit in certain ways for certain things, and I think teaching it in

> schools takes out the bite and maybe even misses the point. Personally I'd

> rather see an end to schools. Kids could learn more from an uninhibited

> Internet connection than they could thru obsolete teaching methods anyway.

> Now _that_ would be a Beat crusade I could get into.

i'm sympathetic to an end to compulsory schooling or a radical

alteration in the stricture of the system's structures. my sympathy is

primarily at a cerebral level. such notions have been discussed

intelligently since the late 1960s and the school buildings are still

there with the students trapped within.

it seems that practical improvement in the curriculum of our schools is

a useful measure until such a day as the schools vanish from the face of

the earth.

does beat literature "belong" in schools? i think that it is something

which students should be allowed to access and be exposed to. it would

probably "belong" to the hearts and minds of the students more than the

walls of the school buildings themselves.

the internet is a wonderful resource and could be a means for

supplementing exposure to beat literature through the schools.

unfortunately, access to the internet is far from universal. while it

is an unrelated and unbeat thread, i sometimes wonder if the information

age will create greater divisions of class of infotech haves and

havenots than have existed in our country for some time.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:41:04 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

MARK NIGON wrote:

>

> Eric,

> Good point, but I don't think an early exposure to the Beats is going to

> turn young students off. Some students are going to love it and others

> will read it like they read the back of a cereal box and say, "Yeah, so

> what?" I don't think having OTR suggested by a trusted friend

> guarantees the reader will like it either. I've suggested Beat pieces

> to friends and they come back with, "While I like it, it just didn't do

> anything for me." I for one would have loved being introduced to Beat

> Gen writers as a HS student. Now that I think about it, maybe you're

> onto something with the "Optional assignment" route. But then again my

> opinions on this subject were formed because I had instructors that took

> an active part in my education and opened my mind (and left it open)

> rather than fill it with "strict nonsense" and blather.

>

> Crunching numbers when I'd rather be writing.

> -Mark

>

> MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM

>

i am glad to see your interest in the high school beat literature

notions. the several voices have made it clear to me that "pushing" On

the Road, for example, would be counterproductive. The optionals

approach might be a better path. i don't think these are inconsistent

with other suggestions of the creation of some form of beat-sampler.

i attended a somewhat experimental 1970ish high school that leaped from

totalitarian notions to anarchic ones. one english course provided

significant freedom in the choice of novels (the quantity was measured

strictly). this might fit the optional notion you mention.

trusted friends are not always exposed to beat literature either. in my

case, i believe i was in my mid-20s before someone slipped me On the

Road. the suggestions i'm hinting toward (no longer pushing) are more

an attempt to provide exposures to these wonders. i imagine that the

full breadth and depth of the wonders will still be passed along from

friend to friend. just hoping that more friends are in the beatific

loop.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:57:58 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

s.a. griffin wrote:

> >

by the by, I have in my little circle of things

> here in L.A. met quite a few younger folks (high school age) that consume it

> all and we older types do all that we can to educate them as well as they

> educate us. this is most desirable of all.

>

> xxxooo

> s.a.

let me know when you run for political office and i'll help in the

ballot box stuffing. this notion at the end of your post sounds

meaningful. it seems that we can all learn from ideas from young people

and their perspectives on all things beat and otherwise.

the informal setting is a wonderful element. it eliminates many of the

anti-school feelings discussed elsewhere.

but, it seems that the schools are another place where we are exposed

and that sometimes good teachers and interested students connect in

english classes and elsewhere. it doesn't seem that the interested

students need wait to mid-20s to be exposed to the beat-thing.

part of this idea to me was how well the notions of writing as a

spontaneous exercise and that writing can be about everyday life is

something that caught on to some degree in some college teaching

circles. i don't know whether it has slid to the high school

environment yet. the beat-lit components in a curriculum could dovetail

well with notions of free and spontaneous writing approaches.

i had hoped to sit down and type systematically for a period of time and

slip through a significant number of the notions that had been posted on

this thread.

i must admit i was pleasantly surprised by the initial interest and have

felt somewhat that i have dropped the ball in not keeping my promise to

continue the unending conversation of such matters.

so i sat down with all intentions directed to serious-thought and to

writing concerning post after post after post

and now

after just a few i fear

my brain

has slipped out of anything akin to systematic

typing

and that i can only

thank y'all for the shocking level

of

initial interest

and hope

for continued interest in these notions

and the ones which

jumped from them

which i cannot call mine at all.

the beat reader idea seems

a rather nice one

though

ambitious beyond my means

i admit

to a few rather

nice brain farts on the matter

in the past week

but nothing near

a Eureka.

it is muggy in Kansas - hope all is well where y'all are reading this.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:09:24 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: school and literature...

andrew szymczyk wrote:

>

> as a side note, we were made to watch a film

> strip on walt whitman a little earlier in the year. the film

> started going off on whom whitman has influenced

> throughout the years, and as a picture of kerouac

> surfaced on the screen i threw my hands up in joy. i

> really don't think that anyone else in the class knew

> what i was so happy about, but i suppose that that's

> their loss.

>

> andrew

i thought that this anecdote about kerouac-the-obscure for your class

during the whitman filmstrip was sad.

three cheers to your teacher !!!

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:07:42 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

>

> answer later,

> enjoy, Attile

There was, of course, ee cummings.

Did she read that poem where "the Beat" occurs so often you think you

might throw up if you hear it one more time?

James

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:25:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jonny Coop <Mcb93940@AOL.COM>

Subject: Buke Poem

There's a guy I met in San Diego a while back named Chuck Perrin who has a

group he calls The Holy Barbarians and they made a terrifc CD called

Beat.itude. Last cut is called "it ain't over yet" (for Jack Kerouac). Some

of the lines are:

Mad to live and mad to talk

Full speed without regret

We got to get it all

Cause it ain't over yet

and later

October twenty-first

Nineteen sixty-nine

It was the Diz's birthday

An irony sublime

You gave us one last lesson

In spontaneity

Livin hard and dyin young

Blowing cool and free

They said "This is how the ride ends"

But I wouldn't take that bet

You may be gone Jack

But the ride ain't over yet

If you like Jazz and love Kerouac (and I know you do) you might want to pick

this up. As far as I'm aware it never got any major distribution because

Chuck has his own small label. The packaging is gorgeous and we're trying to

promote it so are offering it at a special price - $14.98. It's not on our

web-site yet so if you're interested e-mail me at jerry@kerouac.com or call

1-800-KER-OUAC.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City Facts & Fiction

www.kerouac.com

1-800-KER-OUAC

Here's Chuck's latest poem on Buke...

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: WLWORD@aol.com

Sender: jerry@kerouac.com

Resent-from: WLWORD@aol.com

To: jerry@kerouac.com

Date: 97-05-13 12:34:27 EDT

CHINASKI

The streetlight glared at the dirty sidewalk

Dried-out puke on the curb

Air conditioners spit from fourth floor window ledges

Down ancient chipped grafitti-covered brick, caked with grime

Smell of piss round the corner in the alley

Mixed with scents of stale smoke, flat beer

And sour grease-coated garbage cans

Nestled in the glass of broken liquor bottles

And cigarette butts, crushed cardboard boxes

First, I saw the tip of his lit snipe

He was sitting on an old ratty corn-colored couch cushion

Propped up against the side of a dumpster

And as soon as he saw me notice him

He farted

And I laughed

"Hey, Hank . . .

Where the fuck you been, man?"

copyright

1997 Chuck Perrin

All

Rights Reserved

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:42:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: test

test

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:55:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s,a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truth

At 11:50 AM 5/18/97 PDT, you wrote:

>At 11:25 AM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>forever blunder

>>salvage

>>f o r g e t

>>the blue

>>

>Blunders

>Engineered in coofffeeee shops

>Forgetting universal humanity

>You babies beautiful were innocent,

>now killing colors?

>Then forget the Red, White and Green too.

>

>Just see black and white, and spam.

>www.ellensburg.com/~digress

>

green flags and ham

said

Spam I

am

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:57:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s,a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

At 04:14 PM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Saw ruth weiss, poet, beat, read the other day backed by a guy on bass. She

>says that she was one of the innovators of reading poetry to jazz, back in

>1956. (she doesn't say originators). She had a nice little workshop before

>her reading where 5 of us just sat around and talked and bs'ed about the

>beats, San Fran in the 50's, and motivations for writing.

>

>Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

>

>answer later,

>enjoy, Attile

>

because she can

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:01:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s,a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truth

At 05:27 PM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>so the steering column spins

>by the scanning bird

>wearing a hat of fudge

pack it sez the bird

but the fudge

won't

budge

>

>----------

>: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

>: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>: Subject: Re: Truth

>: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 12:21 PM

>:

>: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

>: the hearth is lost,

>: my god, we're u?

w/the f.o.'s singing

god is

dead

>:

>: At 11.25 18/05/97 -0500, you wrote:

>: >forever blunder

>: >salvage

>: >f o r g e t

>: >the blue

a message then a

deeper

message

>: >

>: >----------

>: >: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

>: >: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>: >: Subject: Re: Truth

>: >: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

>: >:

>: >: this white

>: >: sky blur

>: >: myself

>: >:

>: >:

>: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

somewhere in Massachusetts

ghosts order out for

pizza

the check's in the mail.

>: >: > James M.

>: >: >

>: >: >

>: >

>: >

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:34:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wlt4@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: STARSPOTTING Re: Chaput is Kaput!

In a message dated 97-05-16 03:00:35 EDT, you write:

<< THE Spice Girls sang live last night

for the first time on a stage to show

they can perform their complicated

harmonies >>

Uh, what complicated harmonies??

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:37:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

sit inside the elephants epidermis

to understand why the you don't

drown in the rain

----------

: From: s,a. griffin <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: Truth

: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 10:01 PM

:

: At 05:27 PM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

: >so the steering column spins

: >by the scanning bird

: >wearing a hat of fudge

:

: pack it sez the bird

: but the fudge

: won't

: budge

: >

: >----------

: >: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: >: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: >: Subject: Re: Truth

: >: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 12:21 PM

: >:

: >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

: >: the hearth is lost,

: >: my god, we're u?

:

: w/the f.o.'s singing

: god is

: dead

: >:

: >: At 11.25 18/05/97 -0500, you wrote:

: >: >forever blunder

: >: >salvage

: >: >f o r g e t

: >: >the blue

:

: a message then a

: deeper

:

: message

:

: >: >

: >: >----------

: >: >: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: >: >: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: >: >: Subject: Re: Truth

: >: >: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

: >: >:

: >: >: this white

: >: >: sky blur

: >: >: myself

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

:

: somewhere in Massachusetts

: ghosts order out for

: pizza

:

: the check's in the mail.

: >: >: > James M.

: >: >: >

: >: >: >

: >: >

: >: >

: >

: >

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:55:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

In-Reply-To: <199705190301.UAA22217@calvin.usc.edu>

> >so the steering column spins

twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

> >by the scanning bird

> >wearing a hat of fudge

> pack it sez the bird

> but the fudge

> won't

> budge

being quite comfortable with the flock

> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> >: the hearth is lost,

> >: my god, we're u?

> w/the f.o.'s singing

> god is

never quite

> dead

just sleeping, snoring and

schleping

> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

> >: >salvaging

> >: >f o r g e t.

the blue:

> a message then a

> deeper

>

> message

> >: >: "this white

> >: >: sky blur

> >: >: myself"

> >: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

but arent we all?

god sleeping head resting on the bar, hands limply at sides, having been

unconscious since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> ghosts order out for

> pizza

> the check's in the mail.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:41:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Taking a Stand

It is very gratifying for me to see a number of people have come forward in

the last few days to explain how they feel about "The Issue". Most of those

who have spoken have said they can support one side for certain reasons and

think the other side might be credible as well for other reasons. This is

understandable. This is a very complex situation and it appears there is no

black or white. Getting the issues out on the table and discussing them like

the adults we are is a good start, however.

I'd like to thank those of you who have posted a note or e-mailed me

privately that you're glad we're talking about this and you support my

efforts to spur the debate. A few days ago David Rhaesa referred to me

casually as the "Voice of Reason". I showed it to my wife. The next day she

and I were out walking our dogs and got into a minor disagreement over a

trivial point. I looked her in the eye supressing an easy grin and teased,

"Darlin', there's no sense arguing with the "Voice of Reason". Now she says

there's no living with me!

I apologize to anyone who may think I'm getting boorish and tying up the list

with too many long winded posts. There are a few more issues I'd like to

examine, though.

The first is I have a confession to make. I never had any intention of

getting involved in this Estate Battle. For four years I have avoided it

like the plague and up until two or three weeks ago I had fully expected it

would remain that way.

I first met Gerry Nicosia a number of years ago when we ran a series of

Kerouac related events at our now defunct bookstore. Arthur & Kit Knight

came in one evening and talked about their various works. Another night

Carolyn Cassady led a discussion on her life with Neal and Jack, and her son

John Allen was in attendance lending his unique perspective. A third event

featured Gerry Nicosia talking about Memory Babe.

During the course of this third evening, Gerry engaged me in a private

conversation regarding what was happening with Jan's efforts against John

Sampas. I listened politely but didn't ask a whole lot of questions and

didn't encourage the topic. My wife and I had a business to run. We weren't

making any money at it and quite frankly I really didn't want to get involved

in what looked to me to be a problematic argument at best.

Sometime later I met Gerry Nicosia for the second time at the 1994 NYU

conference. He was one of the few people I knew there and he was kind enough

to help me find a ticket to the sold out Town Hall event. He introduced me

to Paul Blake who was wearing a tee-shirt that had printed on it the now

famous letter Jack wrote to "Little Paul" the day before Jack died. Gerry and

I probably spoke for a total of five minutes at NYU. He briefly once again

tried to win me over to his cause. For the second time I stayed non-commital.

I didn't want to get involved. Gerry gave up on trying to convince me and

we each went about our business.

The point of my telling you this is I want to introduce you to my thought

process regarding this whole affair. I distinctly remember thinking while at

NYU, "Boy, is this a no-win situation. Stay out of it because if you take

sides you're going to piss somebody off and if you back the wrong horse,

you're screwed". I also remember having the very clear thought in my mind,

"It's one thing for somebody to be mad at you because you didn't take a

position. It'll be an entirely different story if the eventual winner is

pissed at you because you agreed with the other side". I remember thinking

if I ever hoped to become a part of this Kerouac community, if I ever hoped

to have access to anything other than the books as they were published, I'd

be best served to stay neutral.

So I blew Gerry off. I made the politically safe choice of not getting

involved.

I haven't seen Gerry Nicosia since. He was scheuled to come in for another

booksigning about a year ago after the re-release of Memory Babe by

UC-Berkeley. We wound up closing our store about a month before that

scheduled date so of course that event got cancelled.

I don't know why after sitting on the fence for so long I finally decided to

publicly state that people should listen to what Nicosia has to say. Maybe

it's because with Jan now dead and Gerry carrying on the fight alone I have

more sympathy, I don't know. All I know is when he was trying to make his

argument here on the Beat-L and his opponents were trying to shout him down,

not with the force of argument but with sheer numbers and noise, I felt I

finally had to take a stand. Politics be damned, he deserved to be heard.

I know there are others out there who don't want to take a public stand

because they don't want to "back the wrong horse". Revealing your position

is dangerous. It forever marks you as aligned with one side or another. For

the people in Lowell, for the people at LCK, for the people involved at the

NYU events, the Whitney exhibit, the Rykodisc, most of these people have ties

to the Estate that is now controlled by John Sampas. Without John Sampas'

cooperation their events would not have even been possible.

If people are keeping quiet it might be because they don't want to risk

ruffling any feathers. I can understand that. I can also understand

Nicosia's pespective. I imagine it is easy for him to view anyone who is

keeping their silence because they want to remain in Sampas' good favor with

access to Kerouac material and involvement in Kerouac events as being in

Sampas' camp. Nicosia may or may not be right about that. In fact I'd bet

he is probably right about some people and wrong about others.

Now I'm not here to embarass or shame anyone that they need to stand up and

be counted. We all do what we do for a variety of reasons... because we

think it is right, because it is politically expedient, because we have

business relationships, because we may or may not be interested.

I do think we should examine our reasons for doing what we do. And I think

it is valid to question the reasons and motivations of others as well. It's

one thing for someone to honestly disagree with someone else because they

think they are wrong. It's quite another when they are less than candid

about their real motivations.

John Sampas may not have been heard on this List, but he has had an influence

on our discussion. There are people here who are involved with him

professionally, and I can appreciate that for them, staying quiet is the

politically expedient choice. There are well known sayings that reflect

their positions... "You don't bite the hand that feeds you" and "Dance with

the one who brung ya" are two that come to mind.

Some times there are other reasons for staying quiet. All of Gerry's most

vocal detractors have been quiet for some time now, I'm sure in the hopes

this thread will play itself out if they can avoid adding fuel to the fire.

They're hoping everyone will get bored with it and go back to focusing on

other every day topics.

We've heard from more than a few people "we should do our own research. We

should not trust anyone's word in this. There are errors/inaccuracies/lying

going on on both sides". I finally figured out what some of these people are

really saying. Some of them are saying, "I don't want to take a public

position because of political expediency. I may have opinions but for my own

reasons I don't want to make them known".

Other people are using the very same words of "do your own research, don't

trust anyone, everybody's lying" to try to muddy up the debate. They know

they can't win the debate with the force of their own argument so they try to

avoid losing it by stirring up the muck. Who is saying what for which

reasons I will leave up to each individual to judge.

There is a term that is commonly used when people know something and may be

able to shed some light on a particular situation but stay quiet for their

own reasons. It's called a "Conspiracy of Silence". Geez! There's that

word again!

Like I said earlier, I don't want to embarrass or shame anyone into speaking

about what they know or taking a public position, but I would like to

-convince- everyone to share what they know. Sharing what you know or what

you believe can only bring more truth to bear on the situation.

BTW, I reject the positon that fighting over the estate is "against

everything Jack stood for" or that "none of it matters anyway". Those are

things we can argue about when we all get to Heaven and find out for sure if

any of it ever really did matter. Here, today on this earth, we're alive and

we have the power to influence events. And regardless of what we may choose

to do every moment of our lives we have to be doing something with our time

and the lives God gave us. And as long as we have to be doing something

maybe we should be doing something that is important and can have an impact

on future generations.

In my opinion Jack Kerouac's Archives meet that criteria.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:09:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Re: Bonus Question

My guess: Low Self-Esteem. Maybe an attempt to Suggest That She Lacks

Pretentions.

James M.

P.S. When are you going to let us know the <cough> true story?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:24:59 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike & Casper -Friendly Ghost <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

At 11:25 AM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

>forever blunder

>salvage

>f o r g e t

>the blue

>

>----------

>: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

>: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>: Subject: Re: Truth

>: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

>:

>: this white

>: sky blur

>: myself

>:

>:

>: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

>: > James M.

why write in all smalls? Why not?

Inspired by colors short above

my books love today sorting each shelf a hue cohort

it makes more sense now than before.

all the books looks good now.

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:55:47 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Taking a Stand

Jerry Cimino wrote:

>

A few days ago David Rhaesa referred to me

> casually as the "Voice of Reason". I showed it to my wife. The next day she

> and I were out walking our dogs and got into a minor disagreement over a

> trivial point. I looked her in the eye supressing an easy grin and teased,

> "Darlin', there's no sense arguing with the "Voice of Reason". Now she says

> there's no living with me!

>

>

For your wife's sake, it was obvious a typo. should have been "Voice of

Treason" or "Voice of Season" ..... :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:25:05 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Secret Mullings About Bill

i saw reference yesterday to something like this being a work in

progress of Kerouac's at some point.

given that i'm a burroughs' junkie (and seem to becoming a Kerouacian as

well) i'd love to read Jack's insights into William.

was this ever published in any form? are there photocopies in some

vault?

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:08:43 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Thomas Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject: Question: WSB and Foucault?

Does anyone know if WSB ever met (or read) Foucault? It

seems that they share many common concerns, especially those

relating to power structures and control. They were also

both homosexual, although that's perhaps a bit of a weak

(trite) link. Just wondering...

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"A Bear of Very Little Brain"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:04:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Taking a Stand

Jerry Cimino wrote:......

>

> BTW, I reject the positon that fighting over the estate is "against

> everything Jack stood for" or that "none of it matters anyway". Those are

> things we can argue about when we all get to Heaven and find out for sure if

> any of it ever really did matter. Here, today on this earth, we're alive and

> we have the power to influence events. And regardless of what we may choose

> to do every moment of our lives we have to be doing something with our time

> and the lives God gave us. And as long as we have to be doing something

> maybe we should be doing something that is important and can have an impact

> on future generations.

>

> In my opinion Jack Kerouac's Archives meet that criteria.

>

> Jerry Cimino

Jerry i feel for your wife, that was a great post, sound , a story with

that elusive truth ringing.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:01:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth

at the drive in

in the old mans ford

behind them bushes

till i'm screamin for more

down in the basement

lock the celar door

and baby

talk dirty to me

----------

: From: Mike & Casper -Friendly Ghost <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: Truth

: Date: Monday, May 19, 1997 1:24 AM

:

: At 11:25 AM 5/18/97 -0500, you wrote:

: >forever blunder

: >salvage

: >f o r g e t

: >the blue

: >

: >----------

: >: From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

: >: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: >: Subject: Re: Truth

: >: Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 9:26 AM

: >:

: >: this white

: >: sky blur

: >: myself

: >:

: >:

: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

: >: > James M.

:

:

: why write in all smalls? Why not?

: Inspired by colors short above

: my books love today sorting each shelf a hue cohort

: it makes more sense now than before.

: all the books looks good now.

: www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:06:01 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Question: WSB and Foucault?

Thomas Harberd wrote:

>

> Does anyone know if WSB ever met (or read) Foucault? It

> seems that they share many common concerns, especially those

> relating to power structures and control. They were also

> both homosexual, although that's perhaps a bit of a weak

> (trite) link. Just wondering...

>

> Tom. H.

> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> "A Bear of Very Little Brain"

some overlap but Foucault didn't wrote thick arhealogical philosophy

while Burroughs wrote thick novels. it seems this choice of form is a

significant difference.

Foucault was primarily a cannabis partaker. bowl on the shelf near his

work table read to unblock writer's block.

but there are some parallels in methods as with all the new critics of

language. Writing was 50 years behind painting and critical theory was

25 years behind Writing.... :)

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:57:22 +0200

Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>

Organization: ORY Jean

Subject: Looking for quote

Can anybody on the list send me the right quote in English from "On the

road"

It is a five or six lines long text.

Jack Kerouac write something like:

"The only people who counts for me are people who live intensively, who

explodes like fireworks in the sky and every body says: Whaaa!"

Thanks

Jean

I am still looking for any quote of Allen Ginsberg about Jimi Hendrix

He talked about Bob Dylan, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Dead,

Arlo Guthrie, etc.

He must have met Hendrix and said something about him.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:40:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Looking for quote

Quote from "On the Road" by Jack Kerouac

(Signet paperback edition page 9.)

Speaking about Dean Moriarty and Carlo Marx (Neal Cassady and Allen Ginsburg):

"But then they danced down the streets like dingledodies, and I shambled

after as I've been doing all my life after people who interest me, because

the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones

who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, burn like

fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars . .

."

>Can anybody on the list send me the right quote in English from "On the

>road"

>It is a five or six lines long text.

>Jack Kerouac write something like:

>"The only people who counts for me are people who live intensively, who

>explodes like fireworks in the sky and every body says: Whaaa!"

>

>Thanks

>

>Jean

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:00:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Looking for quote

In-Reply-To: <v01530500afa5f96e4eea@[204.181.15.86]>

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Michael Czarnecki wrote:

> Quote from "On the Road" by Jack Kerouac

>

> "But then they danced down the streets like dingledodies, and I shambled

> after as I've been doing all my life after people who interest me, because

> the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

> to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones

> who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, burn like

> fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars . .

> ."

Why does everyone truncate this passage right at this point? It messes up

the rhythym if you don't complete it, IMHO :

"....and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody

goes 'Awww!'"

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:05:10 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Looking for quote

Jeff Taylor wrote:

>

>

> Why does everyone truncate this passage right at this point?

what's truncate? is it a good or evil thing?

illiterate in the centre of the universe,

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

p.s. anybody planning the jaunt this way to see Robert Peters, he's on

the third day of a three-day prairie festival and it costs around $20.00

for admission or something like that.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:18:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: I'm baaaack.

Pardon me if this message has been posted once or twice before I have had a

few problems with the sending of my mail and I have modified this a bit.

Gerry, I have been away for a few days. I really didn't go to Greece with

John Sampas although it sounds like it might have been fun. I see since I've

been gone you have posted several messages criticizing me because I

suggested that a Xerox copy would be just as good for a scholar to study as

an original. Wow Gerry, what did you post like ten messages on that such=

as... =20

"When I said let me speak to my equal, I mean someone who has trained in

this area for as many years as I have. I'd like to hear Ann Charters come

on here and try to tell me that "Xeroxes are just as good as originals."

She'd make a laughingstock of herself before the academic community, and

that's why she won't do it. So they send on someone like Chaput instead,

who has nothing to lose."

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

and...

Chaput comes on like a freshman humanities student claiming he knows more

about the world than Plato--but he hasn't even read Plato yet, let alone

understood him.

First off Gerry I would like to ask you. Do your lips ever get sore from

blowing your own horn? Gerry you want to speak to someone you think is your

equal but that's gonna be tough for you after all Jesus Christ is dead and

by the way you talk that's about the only person you think is better than

you. Gerry, I never claimed to be a scholar or that I was an expert on

anything and I don't think I ever said I knew more about the world than

Plato. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I'm just a shmuck trying to

make a living like everyone else. I just wasn't aware I had to be a scholar

or genius to talk to you on "your level" sorry. And how do you know if I

have read or understood Plato or anyone else for that matter? You really

know nothing about me. And who is the "they" in the above post...So "they"

send on someone like Chaput instead... Gerry are "they" coming to get you

soon? Well about the Xeroxes what I meant was if a university copies a

document (I'm assuming it's done professionally and isn't missing half the

pages) That copy is just as good to study (If it's an exact copy) as the

original. It was just a comment refering to Attila's post on the same

subject. But it really intrigues me when you make a comment like... I'd

like to hear Ann Charters come on here and try to tell me that "Xeroxes are

just as good as originals." She'd make a laughingstock of herself before

the academic community,... well Gerry do you remember this post you made to

Paul Maher:

To Paul Maher: indeed there are 2,000 Kerouac letters (in Xerox) in

my MEMORY BABE collection at U Mass, Lowell, Special Collections (the Mogan

Center)... Best always, Gerry Nicosia

So it seems you come on the list and belittle people about what fools they

are to say something like XEROXES are OK but meanwhile you yourself in your

famous archive have placed according to your own words 2000 XEROX Kerouac

letters in "your" Memory Babe archive. That's XEROX Gerry. What's this a

case of DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO. So whose the laughingstock Gerry? The moon

is made of green cheese. By the way about those XEROX letters that you

copied. Copying an author's letters and selling them without permission is

against the law . As a GREAT SCHOLAR you should know that. I asked my

brother-in-law he's a prosecutor in Arizona and has had some experience with

copyright violation. So it looks like what you did was a no-no. Martha Mayo

of U-LOWELL was right when she said you sold her a "crippled" archive no

wonder you couldn't get the other dealers or universities to buy it.=20

Now about the fact that you said John Sampas has only placed a few Xeroxes

of letters in NYPL. I am giving Paul Maher of the "Kerouac Quarterly" a list

of 8 pages of items John Sampas has placed (yes ,through his dealer) in the

BERG collection of the NYPL that list will be published in the next issue of

Paul's "Kerouac Quarterly" .I can assure you these are not XEROXES like

yours and some are manuscripts of major importance. I hope this makes you

feel better. If you or anyone doubts the accuracy of that list, feel free to

call the NYPL and check it with them once the list is published. This should

prove to the readers of the list and a lot of others that some of your

accusations about the Sampas' are unfounded. Your mission is to get all of

Kerouac=92s archives in a University or library for future study. This is a

good thing that I would like to see too. I think we all would. But let's not

live in a fantasy world. It=92s not ours to decide. The reason you think=

that

you and Jan and Paul Blake can do it is because Gabrielle's will is forged.

That=92s the premise for your entire argument. READ PAUL MAHER=92S POST=

ABOUT

THAT-I=92ll post it at the end of this letter. Well I don't think the will =

is

forged I don't think Stella could have done that (and I knew Stella). I

don't think she would have had to. I think Gabriel would have wanted to

leave it to her after all she was her nursemaid and companion for many

years? So anyhow Gerry even if the will was forged Stella's estate would

still legally get 1/3 of it, Jan's estate with John Lash as executor would

get 1/3 and Paul Blake would get 1/3. So if as you say John Lash is on John

Sampas' side now (he wants you out of the picture right?) and he is the

executor of her estate well that's 2/3 of the entire estate. If they decide

not to put it in an archive they don't have to legally. It would be their

legal property. In the long run even if you win they will do what they want

with their legal property. Think of the position your putting John in. If he

doesn=92t put the stuff in an archive he is a monster according to you and=

if

he does I=92m sure you will claim he did it because of you. He can=92t win=

with

you. It really won't matter though because John Lash-executor of Jan's

estate will probably win his case against you (It's not John Sampas' case)

and get you taken out of the picture like he wants.

Oh I really enjoyed rod Astees "found poem" thread it did bring some humor

into this whole mess. You must admit it was pretty funny. I know you

enjoyed the Subject "Chaput is Kaput" too you used it a million times but

it's pronounced SHA-POO not SHA-PUT. You know that.

and...

=85What I got instead was Phil Chaput throwing 20 lies a day at me

to answer, to keep me away from any real discussion of what is being done,

and I'm sure there are going to be hundreds more before he's done.

=

=20

Gerry Nicosia

I thought this WAS a real discussion about what is being done. Let's see 30

days times 20 lies a day That's six hundred lies. That will be a lot of Hail

Mary's and Our Fathers for me at the confessional.=20

I've about had it with your accusations so pardon me if I don't

answer yours or Jo's or Jerry's rebuttals. I'm tired of all this. After your

rebuttal let's take a break and talk about something else.=20

Thanks, Phil Chaput-not a scholar, not

an expert but not a liar. Just voicing my opinion.=20

Subject: Re: Conspiracies

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>>And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will? =

We

>>have the power to investigate this. Do we have to be so fractured that we

>>can't stand to look at the truth?

>>

>>

The truth? The problem with stating the truth is that the truth will get you

blasted, threatened, ridiculed, and above all, doubted. I sincerely think

the idea of a conspiracy is ill-founded. The signature on the will looks

like any of the other items that are from Gabrielle Kerouac's hand AFTER HER

STROKE. I don't think matching it before she was an invalid is valid and

admittable as evidence.

>And it is not fair. I had the liberty of seeing letters and contracts from

the archive and now I can see what a horrible waste of time this all is. So

there...blast me. I could care less right now for explanations or ways to

make me look foolish or branded an arch-criminal. My educated mind tells me

different than all the propaganda you have been fed. I inquired, I saw, I am

now convinced. Goodnight all, Regards, Paul Maher of The Kerouac=

Quarterly...

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:47:36 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: I'm baaaack.

Phil Chaput wrote:

>

the Subject "Chaput is Kaput" too you used it a million times but

> it's pronounced SHA-POO not SHA-PUT. You know that.

>

Kaput is pronounced Ka-poo at least in my dreams

Kaput is Shampoo

Kaput is Sniffed Glue

Kaput is Swine Flu

we should all change the subject lines to reflect proper pronunciation

david rhaesa

pronounced Racey as in "Spacey Racey" an old nick-name that still haunts

me from time to time.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:50:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: "a baneful influence"

In doing some of my "professional reading" (so-called) here in

the ODU Art Library, I have stumbled across a very wonderful

editorial in the latest issue of that self-appointed Conscience of

Culture, THE NEW CRITERION. Now any of you who are familiar with

this journal will be able to predict their take on the passing of

Allen Ginsberg, but I thought you all might appreciate a little

pick-me-up, a little unintentional humor vis-a-vis the myopic

apperceptions of Hilton Kramer et Co., sentiments that make the

George Will piece on the Ginsberg legacy sound positively balanced

and SOBER!

THE NEW CRITERION's commentary is so completely fatuous, so utterly

ridiculous and rife with paranoia and perceptions so completely off

the mark you might wonder how or why such an editorial piece drooling

and drowning in such blather could appear in their pages... EXCEPT

that THE NEW CRITERION's agenda as such a protector of the retro-

cultural status quo requires that they go on in precisely this way.

Titled "A baneful influence", some of jewels contained therein

include:

"Long before his death at the age of seventy, he had managed to

con a gullible cultural establishment into celebrating him as a

major poetic talent and icon of sexual and political

liberation.... The truth is that Allen Ginsberg was an apostle of

drug abuse, promiscuous homosexuality, and shameless

exhibitionism. He specialized in blending mindless anti-

Americanism with spurious forms of oriental "spirituality."... His

status as a guru of the drug-sodden, blissed out Left made him a

powerful and baneful influence on an entire generation of

adolescents. It is impossible to calculate how many lives

Ginsberg's smiling hedonism blighted...."

and then, on the poetry, whining first about Robert Pinsky's and

Edward Field's favorable remarks, and later couching every instance of

the word "poetry" or "poems" in quotes, suggesting what? we needn't

wonder....):

"...Ginsberg is the perfect literary equivalent of the emperor's

new clothes. From beginning to end, his 'poetry' is nothing but

flatulent adolescent posturing, without art, verbal delicacy, or

poetic subtlety.... He is the Rod McKuen, the Kahlil Gibran of

the counterculture.... Much of Ginsberg's 'poetry' is little more

than a species of self-absorbed pornography...."

and then specifically recalling "Howl", THE NEW CRITERION calling it

an "aptly named verbal cacophany". They say, "The botched lives

Ginsberg reported on were not the 'best minds' of his generation,

not by a long shot. But his example did indeed help to destroy

many more minds and bodies...."

and this goes on and on ad nauseam, til their final flourish

(containing probably my perversely favorite lines):

"...he was a charlatan and a buffoon whose public antics would

have been merely pathetic had they not contributed so mightily to

the moral degradation of our times."

It's an editorial take on that grand poet's legacy which, if there is

a heaven and if Ginsberg has pockets in his heavenly robes, Allen's

walking this commentary around, and pulling out his copy of this

latest for all to read, and doubtless driving all the angels crazy.

Clay Vaughan

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:50:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s,a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

At 09:55 PM 5/18/97 -0600, you wrote:

>> >so the steering column spins

>twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

>> >by the scanning bird

>> >wearing a hat of fudge

>> pack it sez the bird

>> but the fudge

>> won't

>> budge

>being quite comfortable with the flock

>> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

>> >: the hearth is lost,

>> >: my god, we're u?

>> w/the f.o.'s singing

>> god is

>never quite

>> dead

>just sleeping, snoring and

>schleping

>> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

>> >: >salvaging

>> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

>

> the blue:

>> a message then a

>> deeper

>>

>> message :

don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat

>> >: >: "this white

>> >: >: sky blur

>> >: >: myself"

>> >: >: > Truth is an ethereal entity.

>but arent we all?

>Frank Sinatra as god the rock star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

hands limply at sides, having been

>unconscious since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

>> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

>> pizza

>> the check's in the mail.

the music begins

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:53:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ruth weiss

In a message dated 97-05-18 17:18:44 EDT, you write:

<< Bonus question- why does ruth weiss write her name in all low caps?

Because of e.e.cummings.....

....Her shift key was broken? ...she could only afford half-height

typewriter ribbons? ...her version of Word 6.0 was a beta version and was

not caps-capable? ...she is secrtly related to derek beaulieu and marie

countryman and they were all seperated at birth?

.....her position on capital punishment? I give up!

>>

And the answer is (though I liked some of the above answers better): in the

german language nouns are capitalized. i forget now if she was born is

germany or vienna but in either case she fled the germans during wwii, so in

protest to the nazis she starting writing mostly in lower caps, including her

name.

enjoy, attila

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:13:12 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Truth OTR

OTR (Signet, p. 128): "Then we turned to feats of athletic prowess. Dean

completely amazed me. He had Ed [Dunkel] and me hold a bar of iron up to

our waists, and just standing there hopped right over it, holding his

heels. 'Go ahead, raise it.' We kept raising it till it was chest-high.

Still he jumped over it with ease. Then he tried the running broad jump

and did at least twenty feet and more. Then I raced him down the road. I

can do the hundred in 10:5. He passed me like the wind. As we ran I had a

mad vision of Dean running through all of life just like that--his bony

face outthrust to life, his arms pumping, his brow sweating, his legs

twinkling like Groucho Marx, yelling, 'Yes! Yes! man, you sure can go!'

But nobody could go as fast as he could, and that is the truth."

Real, literal question: It is true that Neal could jump over an iron bar

held chest high (or even waist high), presumably from just standing there,

holding his heels?

Rhetorical questions: Or is this fabled leap a literary truth (hyperbole)

in the Am. tradition of tall tales? And if so, how do we tell the

difference between truth and literary truth when it comes to literary and

legal issues related to Jack and his actual and imaginary life and estate?

<There must be some way outta here, sd the Joker to the Thief. There's too

much confusion [a virtual thread in OTR], I cain't get no relief.>

John M.

Imaginary Estate Agent

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:01:07 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

In-Reply-To: <199705192150.OAA08756@calvin.usc.edu>

> >> >so the steering column spins

> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

half conscious woman yelping

" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

words&booze

"pack it sez the bird

but the fudge

won't budge," she laughs to herself;

> >being quite comfortable with the flock

> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> >> >: the hearth is lost,

> >> >: my god, we're u?

> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

> >> god is

> >never quite

> >> dead

> >just sleeping, snoring and

> >schleping

> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

the bartender,

> >> >: >salvaging

> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

for his lapel

> > the blue: a massage then a

> >> deeper massage :

> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

bed vibrates

magic

fingers

> >> >: >: "this white

> >> >: >: sky blur

> >> >: >: myself"

> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

> >but arent we all?

> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

> hands limply at sides, mouth open

having been

passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

> >> pizza

> >> the check's in the mail.

>

> the music begins & they take the stage

once again.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:08:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeanne Vaccaro <SlugBug747@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Looking for quote

Oh gee, I knew exactly which quote you were speaking of .... particularly

because everyone at my school feels the need to quote it in their year book

half pages...

it's funny, i go to this college prep school (Horace Mann, NY)...infamous

obviously for Jack and WCW (Ginsberg read their in in 1980). Well anyway,

these people are so ... exactly alike one another. They dress the same, talk

the same, I swear they feel the same... they all qoute this one qoute, as if

that made them experts of JK or any of his work. I bet they haven't even read

On The Road, rather got it out of one of these "Portable Quotations" books.

The ironic part is that

because

> the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

> to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones

> who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, burn like

> fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars . .

> ."

well they don't want mad people, or they don't act like it... they wasnt

everyone to be the same...makes me crazy...

Sorry, I had to get that out of my system....

Ciao, Jeanne

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:04:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Durand <LCKerouac@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: 9th ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: 9th ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

Date: 97-05-19 13:47:51 EDT

From: BeatRyder

To: LCKerouac

Experienced and emerging writers are invited to submit written works in

competition for the 9th

Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. This Prize will consist of a $500

honorarium and the

invitation to present the prize manuscript at a public reading during the

annual Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac! Festival to be held in Lowell, Massachusetts from October 1 through

October 5, 1997.

SUBMISSIONS MUST MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:

1. All works must be in English and not previously published. One winner of

the

Literary Prize will be chosen. A number of entries, at the discretion of the

judge,

may be awarded Honorable Mention.

2. Submissions will be accepted between March 1, 1997 and August 1, 1997.

Deadline for all entries is August 1, 1997.

3. The author's name must not appear anywhere on the manuscript.

4. Submissions must be accompanied by a 3x5 card containing the author's

name,

address, telephone number, and manuscript title.

5. Authors retain all rights and priveleges to their work, including

copywrite, but

manuscripts will not be returned.

6. There is a $5.00 administrative fee for each manuscript entry. Please make

checks payable to Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

7. Submissions must meet the following format requirements:

Fiction:

a. Submit one, typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a novel, or a

maximum of three (3) short stories with a combined length of thirty (30)

pages or

less.

Poetry:

a. submit one, typed copy of your manuscript;

b. each copy is to include a maximum of eight (8) poems with a combined

length

of fifteen (15) pages or less; your entry must not exceed fifteen (15) pages.

Non-fiction:

a. submit one typed, double-spaced copy of your manuscript;

b. your entry must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a volume, or a

maximum of three (3) essays with a combined length of thirty (30) pages or

less.

8. Please submit manuscripts to:

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize

P.O. Box 8788

Lowell, MA 01953-8788

9. Authors will receive notification of the prize winner in September of

1997.

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by Middlesex Community College,

the

University of Massachusetts at Lowell, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! (a

non-profit

organization), and the Estate of Jack and Stella (Sampas) Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:51:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ksenija Simic <ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>

Subject: Re: Truth OTR

In-Reply-To: <l03020901afa6966f9f87@[141.224.144.84]> from "John Mitchell" at

May 19, 97 06:13:12 pm

Hi, I'm somewhat new on the list; been reading your discussions for a few

days. Just like everybody here I am a believer in the divinity named Jack

Kerouac. He can make me cry and he can make me cry. I had to jump in because

all of the talk about truth and reality. So: WHO CARES WHETHER SOMETHING IS

TRUE OR NOT! There can't be only one truth. And if you felt really mighty

and strong because Neal could do whatever he wanted when you read this

paragraph, and if you felt that you can do the same, I don't think that it

makes any difference whether it was true or not.

Thank you.

>

> Real, literal question: It is true that Neal could jump over an iron bar

> held chest high (or even waist high), presumably from just standing there,

> holding his heels?

>

> Rhetorical questions: Or is this fabled leap a literary truth (hyperbole)

> in the Am. tradition of tall tales? And if so, how do we tell the

> difference between truth and literary truth when it comes to literary and

> legal issues related to Jack and his actual and imaginary life and estate?

>

> <There must be some way outta here, sd the Joker to the Thief. There's too

> much confusion [a virtual thread in OTR], I cain't get no relief.>

>

> John M.

> Imaginary Estate Agent

>

PS. What is a literary truth anyhow?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:55:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: "a baneful influence"

In-Reply-To: <696D3146231@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

mean people suck.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:03:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Comments: To: "a baneful influence"@cruzio.com

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> mean people suck.

> mc

> .-

Been hectic for me with only time for an occasional glance at the list,

over my shoulder at times,hee heh, but sure am glad i stopped for a

second to see Marie is back!

Hey Gerry, you left out the nice things I also said about your heart

spilling out in our midst. Not that I want to fan the coals.

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:35:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Cassady Question....

I have "Holy Goof"and "Off The Road"...What other good Cassady

Biographies are there?

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:49:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cassady Question....

There are two volumes of letters...

GRACE BEATS KARMA (letters from prison)

AS EVER (letters b/n Ginsberg & Cassady)

and another book I've only heard of in passing, though I've never

seen it:

FRIENDLY AND FLOWING SAVAGE: THE LITERARY LEGEND OF NEAL CASSADY, by

Gregory Stephenson.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:01:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970519175316.32600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

>> >> >so the steering column spins

>> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

>one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

>half conscious woman yelping

>" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

>words&booze

>"pack it sez the bird

> but the fudge

> won't budge," she laughs to herself;

>> >being quite comfortable with the flock

>> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

>> >> >: the hearth is lost,

>> >> >: my god, we're u?

>> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

>> >> god is

>> >never quite

>> >> dead

>> >just sleeping, snoring and

>> >schleping

>> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

>ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

>the bartender,

>> >> >: >salvaging

>> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

>for his lapel

>> > the blue: a massage then a

>> >> deeper massage :

>> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

>bed vibrates

>magic

>fingers

>> >> >: >: "this white

>> >> >: >: sky blur

>> >> >: >: myself"

>> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

>> >but arent we all?

>> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

>> hands limply at sides, mouth open

> having been

>passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

>> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

>> >> pizza

>> >> the check's in the mail.

>>

>> the music begins & they take the stage

> once again.

once again

elvis has left the building,

hounded

"you aint nuthin but-a"

holy elvis speaks to me

virginia woolf hands to me

the selfsame rock

still dripping from the thames..

and off the off-beaten paths

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:01:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady Question....

The Friendly and Flowing Savage book about Cassady by Gregory Stephenson was

published in 1987. It was issued as a stapled book by Textile Bridge Press

(now out of print; TBP defunct)

The entire text of FFS was included in Stephenson's great book, "The Daybreak

Boys": Essays on the literature of theBeat Generation. Hardcover 1990.

For more info, email me -

Thanks -

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:22:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: pome/thought to ponder of the day

In-Reply-To: <6A9CEB71368@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

yeats, "responsibilities" 1914:

141

A Coat

i made my song a coat

covered with embroideries

out of old mythologies

from heel to throat;

but the fools caught it,

wore it in the world's eyes

as though they'd wrought it.

song, let them take it,

for there's more enterprise

in walking naked

____________

why does mc use so much lower case? because it's there.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:26:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady Question....

Thanks to Clay Vaughan and Jeffrey Weinberg for answering my letter.

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:14:21 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: "a baneful influence"

In-Reply-To: <l03020909afa7163d9151@[206.25.67.128]>

At 09:55 AM 5/20/97 -0400, you wrote:

>mean people suck.

>mc

but nice people swallow ;)

ttfn.

Lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:44:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth OTR

In a message dated 97-05-19 22:31:56 EDT, you write:

<< It is true that Neal could jump over an iron bar

held chest high (or even waist high), presumably from just standing there,

holding his heels? Rhetorical questions: Or is this fabled leap a

literary truth (hyperbole) in the Am. tradition of tall tales? >>

I think it is in the tradition of tall jumps.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:44:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Truth OTR

In a message dated 97-05-20 03:32:14 EDT, you write:

<< Just like everybody here I am a believer in the divinity named Jack

Kerouac. He can make me cry and he can make me cry. I had to jump in because

all of the talk about truth and reality. So: WHO CARES WHETHER SOMETHING IS

TRUE OR NOT! There can't be only one truth. >>

Are you a true believer in the divinity of Kerouac? Did you really cry? Do

you care if it's true of not?

THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.

But the truth may be that there is more then one truth.

Unless the truth is that there is only one truth.

non-believer of truth unless it's true

Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:53:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: pome/thought to ponder of the day

In-Reply-To: <l03020905afa7371f4b42@[206.25.67.110]>

hey marie...

thanx for the pome... it made my day...

by the by, welcome back... you were missed

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:33:12 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : helped myself too ; more apologies.

In-Reply-To: <l03020902afa72fb58d50@[206.25.67.128]>

> >> >> >so the steering column spins

> >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

> >one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

> >half conscious woman yelping

> >" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

> >words&booze

> >"pack it sez the bird

> > but the fudge

> > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

> >> >being quite comfortable with the flock

> >> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> >> >> >: the hearth is lost,

> >> >> >: my god, we're u?

> >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

> >> >> god is

> >> >never quite

> >> >> dead

> >> >just sleeping, snoring and

> >> >schleping

> >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

> >ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

> >the bartender,

> >> >> >: >salvaging

> >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

> >for his lapel

> >> > the blue: a massage then a

> >> >> deeper massage :

> >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

> >bed vibrates

> >magic

> >fingers

> >> >> >: >: "this white

> >> >> >: >: sky blur

> >> >> >: >: myself"

> >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

> >> >but arent we all?

> >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

> >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

> > having been

> >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

> >> >> pizza

> >> >> the check's in the mail.

> >>

> >> the music begins & they take the stage

> > once again.

>

> once again

> elvis has left the building,

> hounded

> "you aint nuthin but-a"

> holy elvis speaks to me

> virginia woolf hands to me

> the selfsame rock

> still dripping from the thames..

> and off the off-beaten paths

>

-but for once the rain stops

because altho'

i have rust under my fingernails,

elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

the checks don't even bounce very high

and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

or otherwise

because despite

rattletrap due rent

peeling carapace from

crick neck staring at

high tide marks

lost dog of an old

city

because despite : we have been around

been about to hear the right stories

the right people ; electric current.

faraway lights.

we have at least learned mythology.

so nothing new, just prosaic :

I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

and it'll be just the same as always ;

what is more, if it's not

we have at least learned how to pretend.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:43:17 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970519175316.32600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

concerning all this "fudge wont budge" stuff:

i am considering publishing a chapbook. would anyone mind if i included

this poem? (as well as "On the work of burroughs")

could those who participated - and continue as well - please contact me

if you have any complaints, and to pipe up with yr names (marie, rinaldo,

olly, and others...) etc...

thanks a bundle

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:09:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

In-Reply-To: <3381AF44.1F8CFB9D@cruzio.com>

05-20-97 leon wrote:

>Hey Gerry, you left out the nice things I also said about your heart

>spilling out in our midst.

>

>leon

leon,

That thought is one I'd appreciate seeing in context. Care to share it?

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:28:28 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : helped myself too ; more apologies.

Olly Ruff wrote:

>

> > >> >> >so the steering column spins

> > >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

> > >one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

> > >half conscious woman yelping

> > >" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

> > >words&booze

> > >"pack it sez the bird

> > > but the fudge

> > > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

> > >> >being quite comfortable with the flock

> > >> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> > >> >> >: the hearth is lost,

> > >> >> >: my god, we're u?

> > >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

> > >> >> god is

> > >> >never quite

> > >> >> dead

> > >> >just sleeping, snoring and

> > >> >schleping

> > >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

> > >ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

> > >the bartender,

> > >> >> >: >salvaging

> > >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

> > >for his lapel

> > >> > the blue: a massage then a

> > >> >> deeper massage :

> > >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

> > >bed vibrates

> > >magic

> > >fingers

> > >> >> >: >: "this white

> > >> >> >: >: sky blur

> > >> >> >: >: myself"

> > >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

> > >> >but arent we all?

> > >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

> > >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

> > > having been

> > >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> > >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

> > >> >> pizza

> > >> >> the check's in the mail.

> > >>

> > >> the music begins & they take the stage

> > > once again.

> >

> > once again

> > elvis has left the building,

> > hounded

> > "you aint nuthin but-a"

> > holy elvis speaks to me

> > virginia woolf hands to me

> > the selfsame rock

> > still dripping from the thames..

> > and off the off-beaten paths

> >

> -but for once the rain stops

> because altho'

> i have rust under my fingernails,

> elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

> the checks don't even bounce very high

> and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

> or otherwise

> because despite

> rattletrap due rent

> peeling carapace from

> crick neck staring at

> high tide marks

> lost dog of an old

> city

>

> because despite : we have been around

> been about to hear the right stories

> the right people ; electric current from

my brain to yrs.

> faraway lights.

> we have at least learned mythology.

>

> so nothing new, just prosaic :

> I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

> and it'll be just the same as always ;

> what is more, if it's not

> we have at least learned how to pretend.

and we pretend this mythology

through every backward

county road

and dust-bowl picnic ground

on the map

from Taos to the shores of Maine

and the rain is the

same everywhere

whether pretense or not ...

it is WET !

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:50:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Where is Gerry Nicosia?

Where is Gerry Nicosia?? I noticed a couple of beat-ls have baited him a

little, but no reply. This guy can't be gone. Wheather he was right or

wrong, he got us fired up..people were name calling, demeaning, caring,

hateful,inspiring, thoughtful, asinine, pouring their hearts out, speaking

in tongues. I mean, this guy made people go nuts. Gerry, we need a little

spark here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:44:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Re: My introduction

Hi Natalie from Kansas,

Thanks for the greetin'. To be honest, I don't know where I'm from.

My mother tells me that I came from her womb and before that a combination

of one of her eggs and one of my father's sperm. But before that your guess

is as good as mine.

I currently reside in British Columbia, Canada, or at least that's what

the signs seem to suggest. I'm skeptical.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:19:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NIGON <Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : helped myself too ; more apologies. -Reply

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

>>> RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET> 05/20/97 04:28pm >>>

Olly Ruff wrote:

>

> > >> >> >so the steering column spins

> > >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

> > >one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

> > >half conscious woman yelping

> > >" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

> > >words&booze

> > >"pack it sez the bird

> > > but the fudge

> > > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

> > >> >being quite comfortable with the flock

> > >> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> > >> >> >: the hearth is lost,

> > >> >> >: my god, we're u?

> > >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

> > >> >> god is

> > >> >never quite

> > >> >> dead

> > >> >just sleeping, snoring and

> > >> >schleping

> > >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the

bar

> > >ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him,

harrassing

> > >the bartender,

> > >> >> >: >salvaging

> > >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

> > >for his lapel

> > >> > the blue: a massage then a

> > >> >> deeper massage :

> > >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly,

as the

> > >bed vibrates

> > >magic

> > >fingers

> > >> >> >: >: "this white

> > >> >> >: >: sky blur

> > >> >> >: >: myself"

> > >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

> > >> >but arent we all?

> > >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on

the bar,

> > >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

> > > having been

> > >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> > >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

> > >> >> pizza

> > >> >> the check's in the mail.

> > >>

> > >> the music begins & they take the stage

> > > once again.

> >

> > once again

> > elvis has left the building,

> > hounded

> > "you aint nuthin but-a"

> > holy elvis speaks to me

> > virginia woolf hands to me

> > the selfsame rock

> > still dripping from the thames..

> > and off the off-beaten paths

> >

> -but for once the rain stops

> because altho'

> i have rust under my fingernails,

> elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

> the checks don't even bounce very high

> and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

> or otherwise

> because despite

> rattletrap due rent

> peeling carapace from

> crick neck staring at

> high tide marks

> lost dog of an old

> city

>

> because despite : we have been around

> been about to hear the right stories

> the right people ; electric current from

my brain to yrs.

> faraway lights.

> we have at least learned mythology.

>

> so nothing new, just prosaic :

> I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

> and it'll be just the same as always ;

> what is more, if it's not

> we have at least learned how to pretend.

and we pretend this mythology

through every backward

county road

and dust-bowl picnic ground

on the map

from Taos to the shores of Maine

and the rain is the

same everywhere

whether pretense or not ...

it is WET !

Like the the fingers in my face,

driping with the rain off the windshield.

And curbs blur by in blue/black

with time bending and laughter

and booze; "There was one?!"

She says. "What?" Says I,

as my eyes bend upward to

the gray clouds and I think of

old war documentaries.

I've forgotten in the midst of the

music, memories and cigarette smoke

why I'm out tonight.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:51:34 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : helped myself too ; more apologies.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.970520211752.18928A-100000@blue.csi.cam.ac. uk>

>> >> >> >so the steering column spins

>> >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

>> >one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

>> >half conscious woman yelping

>> >" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

>> >words&booze

>> >"pack it sez the bird

>> > but the fudge

>> > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

>> >> >being quite comfortable with the flock

>> >> >> >: a Pakistan screms in the bed!

>> >> >> >: the hearth is lost,

>> >> >> >: my god, we're u?

>> >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

>> >> >> god is

>> >> >never quite

>> >> >> dead

>> >> >just sleeping, snoring and

>> >> >schleping

>> >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

>> >ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

>> >the bartender,

>> >> >> >: >salvaging

>> >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

>> >for his lapel

>> >> > the blue: a massage then a

>> >> >> deeper massage :

>> >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

>> >bed vibrates

>> >magic

>> >fingers

>> >> >> >: >: "this white

>> >> >> >: >: sky blur

>> >> >> >: >: myself"

>> >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

>> >> >but arent we all?

>> >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the bar,

>> >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

>> > having been

>> >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

>> >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

>> >> >> pizza

>> >> >> the check's in the mail.

>> >>

>> >> the music begins & they take the stage

>> > once again.

>>

>> once again

>> elvis has left the building,

>> hounded

>> "you aint nuthin but-a"

>> holy elvis speaks to me

>> virginia woolf hands to me

>> the selfsame rock

>> still dripping from the thames..

>> and off the off-beaten paths

>>

>-but for once the rain stops

> because altho'

> i have rust under my fingernails,

> elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

> the checks don't even bounce very high

> and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

> or otherwise

> because despite

> rattletrap due rent

> peeling carapace from

> crick neck staring at

> high tide marks

> lost dog of an old

> city

>

> because despite : we have been around

> been about to hear the right stories

> the right people ; electric current.

> faraway lights.

> we have at least learned mythology.

>

> so nothing new, just prosaic :

> I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

> and it'll be just the same as always ;

> what is more, if it's not

> we have at least learned how to pretend.

>

>

I'M WALKIN'

i am walking

the man has

with him a shopping bag

i am walking i am walking

he crunched the apple

the man has crunched the apple

i'm walkin' i'm walkin' SIR my soul is blur

MY SOUL IS BLUR sir GOD god of the dream

i'm walkin' i'm walkin' SIR my soul is blur

give me a dream SIR do asleep myself

i'm walkin' i'm walkin'

i'm walkin' i'm walkin'

i am walking through corners of dream

corners of dream

i have not hide for myself behind corners in a dream

mother

i'm walkin'

father

i'm walkin'

brother

i'm walkin'

sister

i'm walkin'

take a lunch with your brother-- says still the mother

mother my brother is dead you know! u know!

take a lunch, rinaldo!-- says still my mother

yes mother

yes mother

yes mother

these shining corners

in the dream

they tears

they tears

the man has crunched the apple

the man has crunched the apple

i'm walkin'

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:10:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970520144107.24616C-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

>concerning all this "fudge wont budge" stuff:

>i am considering publishing a chapbook. would anyone mind if i included

>this poem? (as well as "On the work of burroughs")

>could those who participated - and continue as well - please contact me

>if you have any complaints, and to pipe up with yr names (marie, rinaldo,

>olly, and others...) etc...

>thanks a bundle

>yrs

>derek

____________

make it so, insp d!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:40:13 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To: <3382177C.5DC3@midusa.net>

On Tue, 20 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> Olly Ruff wrote:

> >

> > > >> >> >so the steering column spins

> > > >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

> > one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

> > > >half conscious woman yelping

> > > > " i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

> > > > words&booze

> > > "pack it sez the bird

> > > > but the fudge

> > > > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

> > >being quite comfortable with the flock

> > > >> > : a Pakistan screms in the bed!

> > > >> : the hearth is lost,

> > > >> > : my god, we're u?

> > > >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

> > > >> >> god is

> > > >> > never quite

> > > >> >> dead

> > > >> > - just sleeping, snoring and

> > > >> >schleping

> > > >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

> > > >ogling the waitress, pushing himself on the women next to him, harrassing

> > > >the bartender,

> > > >> >> >: >salvaging

> > > >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

> > > >for his lapel

> > > >> > the blue: a massage then a

> > > >> >> deeper massage :

> > > >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" he moans absentmindedly, as the

> > > >bed vibrates

> > > >magic

> > > >fingers

> > > >> >> >: >: "this white

> > > >> >> >: >: sky blur

> > > >> >> >: >: myself"

> > > >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

> > > >> but arent we all?

> > > >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent star sleeping w/head resting on the

bar,

> > > >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

> > > > having been

> > > >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

> > > >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

> > > >> >> pizza

> > > >> >> the check's in the mail.

> > > >>

> > > >> the music begins & they take the stage

> > > > once again.

> > >

> > > once again

> > > elvis has left the building,

> > > hounded

> > > "you aint nuthin but-a"

> > > holy elvis speaks to me

> > > virginia woolf hands to me

> > > the selfsame rock

> > > still dripping from the thames..

> > > and off the off-beaten paths

> > >

> >-but for once the rain stops

> > because altho'

> > i have rust under my fingernails,

> > elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

> > the checks don't even bounce very high

> > and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

> > or otherwise

> > because despite

> > rattletrap due rent

> > peeling carapace from

> > crick neck staring at

> > high tide marks

> > lost dog of an old

> > city

> >

> > because despite : we have been around

> > been about to hear the right stories

> > the right people ; electric current from

> my brain to yrs.

> > faraway lights.

> > we have at least learned mythology.

> >

> > so nothing new, just prosaic :

> > I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

> > and it'll be just the same as always ;

> > what is more, if it's not

> > we have at least learned how to pretend.

>

> and we pretend this mythology

> through every backward

> county road

> and dust-bowl picnic ground

> on the map

> from Taos to the shores of Maine

> and the rain is the

> same everywhere

> whether pretense or not ...

> it is WET !

>

but tonight of all nights i can't feel it.

it's harder to pretend things contrary

to the Evidence

(backed up with several thou' years)

- but then i'm a talent...

... & i'm back with Sinatra & steering columns,

spray splash waitress white blur

hearth dust bowl check stage mail

a dead man marking time...

salvage ; may as well pick flowers out of the split kerb

there's no choice to be made it's

a spent coin over a crossed line.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:56:44 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: why all the backchannel????

folks keep sending me backchannels of the exploding poem along with

sending them to the Beat-L and i don't understand why ...

back to the NBA

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:05:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: "a baneful influence"

At 12:14 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 09:55 AM 5/20/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>mean people suck.

>>mc

>

>but nice people swallow ;)

>

>ttfn.

>

>Lisa

>--

>

>Lisa M. Rabey

>Internet and Computer Consultant

>San Francisco, California

>http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

>**************************************

>General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

>

>

praise the nice people. if you want good head, give only the best!

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:56:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge

At 01:40 AM 5/21/97 +0100, you wrote:

>On Tue, 20 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

>

>> Olly Ruff wrote:

>> >

>> > > >> >> >so the steering column spins

>> > > >> >twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

>> > one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

>> > > >half conscious woman yelping

>> > > > " i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

>> > > > words&booze

>> > > "pack it sez the bird

>> > > > but the fudge

>> > > > won't budge," she laughs to herself;

>> > >being quite comfortable with the flock

>> > > >> > : a Pakistan screams in the bed!

>> > > >> : the hearth is lost,

>> > > >> > : my god, we're u?

>> > > >> >> w/the f.o.'s singing

>> > > >> >> god is

>> > > >> > never quite

>> > > >> >> dead but gives the most

delicious head however at the moment

>> > > >> > - just sleeping, snoring and

>> > > >> >schleping

>> > > >> >> >: >forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

>> > > >ogling the waitress, pushing himself onto the women next to him,

harrassing

>> > > >the bartender,

>> > > >> >> >: >salvaging

>> > > >> >> >: >f o r g e t.me nots

>> > > >for his lapel

>> > > >> > the blue music of a past life comes up on the juke box

: a massage then a

>> > > >> >> deeper massage :

>> > > >> "don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" the court jester

moans absentmindedly, as the

>> > > >bed vibrates

>> > > >magic

>> > > >fingers up & down the spine

>> > > >> >> >: >: "this white

>> > > >> >> >: >: sky blur

>> > > >> >> >: >: myself"

>> > > >> >> >: >: > Truth is an unconscious entity.

>> > > >> but arent we all mad?

>> > > >> >Frank Sinatra as god the spent rock star sleeping w/head resting

on the

> bar,

>> > > >> hands limply at sides, mouth open

>> > > > having been

>> > > >passed out since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

>> > > >> >> ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

>> > > >> >> pizza

>> > > >> >> the check's in the mail.

tired of watching Hee Haw reruns on the cable t.v.

Elvis shoots the television with his hunk of burning love gun

The King has been to see his main man Dr. Nick Feelgood

Big E feels tall & small at the same time

as he

unhitches his lip from the side of head

& whispers love me tender to the weeping

willow trees

swinging softly in the Memphis breeze

he kisses the toes of sweet Mercy Gotlegs

in the back seat of the his titty pink

'57 Eldorado where big bang theories are

practiced but never preached

the Colonel busy frying

dancing dixie chickens who failed to make the

grade

does a bong hit of some kickass two hit wonder weed

from way out west California way

he passes it on to slick Tricky Dick Nixon who

inhales

the beauty of everything deeply as the sky runs for

president

& slides out of control

>> > > >>

>> > > >> the music begins & they take the stage

>> > > > once again.

>> > >

>> > > once again

>> > > elvis has left the building,

>> > > hounded

>> > > "you aint nuthin but-a"

>> > > holy elvis speaks to me

>> > > virginia woolf hands to me

>> > > the selfsame rock

>> > > still dripping from the thames..

>> > > and off the off-beaten paths

>> > >

>> >-but for once the rain stops

>> > because altho'

>> > i have rust under my fingernails,

>> > elvis is rapidly running out of buildings

>> > the checks don't even bounce very high

>> > and i can no longer tell whether I am overweight

>> > or otherwise

>> > because despite

>> > rattletrap due rent

>> > peeling carapace from

>> > crick neck staring at

>> > high tide marks

>> > lost dog of an old

>> > city

>> >

>> > because despite : we have been around

>> > been about to hear the right stories

>> > the right people ; electric current from

>> my brain to yrs.

>> > faraway lights.

>> > we have at least learned mythology.

>> >

>> > so nothing new, just prosaic :

>> > I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

>> > and it'll be just the same as always ;

>> > what is more, if it's not

>> > we have at least learned how to pretend.

>>

>> and we pretend this mythology

>> through every backward

>> county road

>> and dust-bowl picnic ground

>> on the map

>> from Taos to the shores of Maine

>> and the rain is the

>> same everywhere

>> whether pretense or not ...

>> it is WET !

>>

> but tonight of all nights i can't feel it.

> it's harder to pretend things contrary

> to the Evidence

> (backed up with several thou' years)

> - but then i'm a talent...

>

> ... & i'm back with Sinatra & steering columns,

> spray splash waitress white blur

> hearth dust bowl check stage mail

>

>

> a dead man marking time...

>

>

> salvage ; may as well pick flowers out of the split kerb

> there's no choice to be made it's

> a spent coin over a crossed line.

hey man,

I ain't gonna lie

I need money for a beer

who you gotta fuck to get outta here?

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:16:52 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge : exquisite corpse (helped myself, sorry)

At 02:43 PM 5/20/97 -0600, you wrote:

>concerning all this "fudge wont budge" stuff:

>i am considering publishing a chapbook. would anyone mind if i included

>this poem? (as well as "On the work of burroughs")

>could those who participated - and continue as well - please contact me

>if you have any complaints, and to pipe up with yr names (marie, rinaldo,

>olly, and others...) etc...

>thanks a bundle

>yrs

>derek

>

>

I guess my name should be included since I kicked the danged thing off way

back when.I thought about publishing the burroughs/ginsberg thing at a later

date as a sort of picasso type thingy (remember the bull?) by publishing the

entire process as a book since I have the entire thing saved step by step

from the git go. hope all is well with you. did my latest alteration 'bout

half hour ago. look forward to chapbook. all the best -

xxxooo

s.a. griffin

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:52:44 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: fudge wont budge pts.1 thru 5 (last word? egad??)

In-Reply-To: <199705210156.SAA10274@calvin.usc.edu>

PART ONE

so the steering column spins

twisting the wheels spitting the spray splash from the streets

one hand on the wheel and the bottle, windows fogged with

half conscious woman yelping

" i'm scanning for the bird wearing a hat of fudge" in a slur of

words&booze

"pack it sez the bird

but the fudge

won't budge," she laughs to herself;

being quite comfortable with the flock

" a Pakistan screams in the bed!" she yells as if an

illumnination

: the hearth is lost,

: my god, we're u?

w/the f.o.'s singing

god is

never quite

dead but gives the most

delicious head however at the moment

- just sleeping, snoring and

schleping

forever blunder(ing) with the cocktails and napkins at the bar

ogling the waitress, pushing himself onto the women next to him,

harrassing

the bartender,

salvaging

f o r g e t.me nots

for his lapel

the blue music of a past life comes up on the juke box

: a massage then a deeper massage :

"don't f o r g e t.to put out the cat" the court jester

moans absentmindedly, as the

bed vibrates

magic

fingers up & down the spine

"this white

sky blur

myself"

Truth is an unconscious entity.

but arent we all mad?

Frank Sinatra as god the spent rock star sleeping w/head resting

on the

bar,

hands limply at sides, mouth open

having been

passed

out

since the rise of plastic somewhere in Massachusetts

ghosts of Dean & Sammy order out for

pizza

the check's in the mail.

PART TWO

tired of watching Hee Haw reruns on the cable t.v.

Elvis shoots the television with his hunk of burning love gun

The King has been to see his main man Dr. Nick Feelgood

Big E feels him up good & tall &

small at the same time

as he

unhitches his lip from the side of head

and his belt from the GRACELAND buckle

& whispers love me tender to the weeping

willow trees

swinging softly in the Memphis breeze

he kisses the toes of sweet Mercy Gotlegs

in the back seat of the his titty pink

'57 Eldorado where

stephen hawking's big bang theories are

practiced but never preached

the Colonel busy frying

dancing dixie chickens who failed to make the

grade - no grade A eggs round here no sir - we only like the best he

laffs and grabs at the titts next to him

does a bong hit of some kickass two hit wonder weed

from way out west California way

he passes it on to slick Tricky Dick Nixon who

inhales

the beauty of everything deeply as the sky runs for

president. nixon pacing and yells at the king "THE LEAST THE PRESIDENT

SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DO IS

SUCK

&

INHALE,

GODDAMMITALL!"

PART THREE

the music begins & they take the stage

once again.

once again

elvis has left the building,

hounded

"you aint nuthin but-a"

holy elvis speaks to me "singing words of wisdom"

virginia woolf hands me the selfsame rock

still dripping from the thames.. the blood of richard

nixon & emily dickonson - both

enshrined in thier rooms. watching with raven eyes thru

the drapes.

-but for once the rain stops

because altho'

i have rust under my fingernails,

"elvis is rapidly running out of buildings" mumbles nixon to sinatra

under his ginbreath,

"the checks don't even bounce very high, and i can no longer tell

whether I am overweight

or otherwise

because despite

battleship's rent due"

peeling carapace from crick neck staring at

high tide marks

last rabid dog of an old city

because despite : we have been around

been about to hear the right stories

the right people ; electric current from

my brain to yrs.

faraway lights.

we have at least learned mythology.

PART FOUR

so nothing new, just prosaic :

I'll meet you in the botanical gardens,

and it'll be just the same as always ;

what is more, if it's not

we have at least learned how to pretend.

and run for cover.

and we pretend this mythology

through every backward

county road

and dust-bowl picnic ground

on the map

from Laos to the shores of Maine

and the rain is the

same everywhere

whether pretense or not ...

it is WET !

PART FIVE

it's harder to pretend things contrary

to the Evidence

(backed up with several thou' years)

- but then i'm with a true deceptive talent...

... & i'm back with Sinatra & steering columns,

spray splash waitress white blur

hearth dust bowl check stage mail

a dead man marking time...

salvage ; may as well pick flowers out of the split kerb

there's no choice to be made it's

a spent coin over a crossed line. (count yr change

after the plans been hatched)

hey man,

I ain't gonna lie

I need money for a beer

who you gotta fuck to get outta here?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:09:35 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Truth OTR

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.

> But the truth may be that there is more then one truth.

> Unless the truth is that there is only one truth.

>

> non-believer of truth unless it's true

> Attila

And I would further contend that all truth is infinitly mallable and

will be a different truth tomorrow.

Except maybe that nice people swallow--that one stays constant.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:26:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge won't budge-Haiku

The fudge

Won't budge

Try exlax

(sorry I couldn't resist)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:36:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

At 08:51 PM 5/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-15 11:53:58 EDT, Gerry wrote:

>

>> I'm out for money and power, I'm a glory

>>hunter, I'm too cheap to donate to a good cause, I'm a "nut," etc.

>

>A "found poem" and, incidentally, a pretty darn good summary I think.

>Well done, Gerry.

>

Hey Rod, how many more Kerouac letters did Sampas sell you for putting up

shit like this?

P.S. When are you gonna resell your Kerouac letters to the New York Public

Library, since we keep hearing how everything gets resold there? Let's see,

I recall sitting at your kitchen table and reading a Kerouac letter to G.J.

Apostolos, another to John Clellon Holmes, wasn't there one to Cassady too?

What about those Polaroids of Johnny Depp with John Sampas? I'll

look for those next time I'm in New York.

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:01:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

At 08:36 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 08:51 PM 5/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>In a message dated 97-05-15 11:53:58 EDT, Gerry wrote:

>>

>>> I'm out for money and power, I'm a glory

>>>hunter, I'm too cheap to donate to a good cause, I'm a "nut," etc.

>>

>>A "found poem" and, incidentally, a pretty darn good summary I think.

>>Well done, Gerry.

>>

>

>Hey Rod, how many more Kerouac letters did Sampas sell you for putting up

>shit like this?

>

>P.S. When are you gonna resell your Kerouac letters to the New York Public

>Library, since we keep hearing how everything gets resold there? Let's see,

>I recall sitting at your kitchen table and reading a Kerouac letter to G.J.

>Apostolos, another to John Clellon Holmes, wasn't there one to Cassady too?

> What about those Polaroids of Johnny Depp with John Sampas? I'll

>look for those next time I'm in New York.

>

>Best, Gerry

>

>Lighten up Gerry it was just a joke for Christ sake. We were laughing with

you. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:04:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Where is Gerry Nicosia?

At 04:50 PM 5/20/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Where is Gerry Nicosia?? I noticed a couple of beat-ls have baited him a

>little, but no reply. This guy can't be gone. Wheather he was right or

>wrong, he got us fired up..people were name calling, demeaning, caring,

>hateful,inspiring, thoughtful, asinine, pouring their hearts out, speaking

>in tongues. I mean, this guy made people go nuts. Gerry, we need a little

>spark here.

>

>Does that mean what he has is catchy?

Here comes the snap, crackle and pop too...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:51:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: fudge won't budge-Haiku

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970521032654.00698900@pop.tiac.net>

>The fudge

>Won't budge

>Try exlax

>

>

>

>(sorry I couldn't resist)

Resistance is golden

When IT

Comes to crud

(sorry, I've got to run)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:58:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

At 12:01 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>At 08:36 PM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>At 08:51 PM 5/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>>In a message dated 97-05-15 11:53:58 EDT, Gerry wrote:

>>>

>>>> I'm out for money and power, I'm a glory

>>>>hunter, I'm too cheap to donate to a good cause, I'm a "nut," etc.

>>>

>>>A "found poem" and, incidentally, a pretty darn good summary I think.

>>>Well done, Gerry.

>>>

>>

>>Hey Rod, how many more Kerouac letters did Sampas sell you for putting up

>>shit like this?

>>

>>P.S. When are you gonna resell your Kerouac letters to the New York Public

>>Library, since we keep hearing how everything gets resold there? Let's see,

>>I recall sitting at your kitchen table and reading a Kerouac letter to G.J.

>>Apostolos, another to John Clellon Holmes, wasn't there one to Cassady too?

>> What about those Polaroids of Johnny Depp with John Sampas? I'll

>>look for those next time I'm in New York.

>>

>>Best, Gerry

>>

>>Lighten up Gerry it was just a joke for Christ sake. We were laughing with

>you. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

>

>

Dear Phil, May 20, 1997

You and Anstee should both go far--and the sooner you start, the better.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:50:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: test - checking reply to line

tried to fix what some folks suggested caused the backchannels. gonna

see how i do. since i don't get a copy can someone let me know if the

separate reply-to address has been effectively eliminated

thanks,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:37:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: test - checking reply to line

At 04:50 AM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>tried to fix what some folks suggested caused the backchannels. gonna

>see how i do. since i don't get a copy can someone let me know if the

>separate reply-to address has been effectively eliminated

>

>thanks,

>david rhaesa

>

>Dave, if you send the message SET BEAT-L REPRO in the body of a message to

the address LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU you will be sent a copy of your own

messages. Occasionally this shuts off and you may have to reset it. It's the

best way to know if your messages are being distributed. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:43:38 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: test - checking reply to line

Phil Chaput wrote:

>

> At 04:50 AM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >tried to fix what some folks suggested caused the backchannels. gonna

> >see how i do. since i don't get a copy can someone let me know if the

> >separate reply-to address has been effectively eliminated

> >

> >thanks,

> >david rhaesa

> >

> >Dave, if you send the message SET BEAT-L REPRO in the body of a message to

> the address LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU you will be sent a copy of your own

> messages. Occasionally this shuts off and you may have to reset it. It's the

> best way to know if your messages are being distributed. Phil

thanks. i know that my messages are being sent. i'll probably do what

you've suggested. the difficulty is that my e-mail address is appearing

in the From line and the Reply-to line. at least that was the case

according to a couple of folks last night. i tried to fix that it my

mail configuration and wondered if i had succeeded. it appears from

your reply that the experiment was a success. thanks.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:41:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady Question....

In-Reply-To: <19970520.103504.20870.0.dean_palmer@juno.com>

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Dean M. Palmer wrote:

> I have "Holy Goof"and "Off The Road"...What other good Cassady

> Biographies are there?

Dean:

Charles Plymell's "Last of the Moccasins" (LOM) has much factual detail

about Neal Cassady during the time after Neal moved away from Los Gatos and

Carolyn Cassady. These events described in LOM take place while Neal

hung around with Anne Murphy, Charles Plymell, Allen Ginsberg, etc. on

Gough St in S.F. LOM contains abundant Neal Cassady biographical data not

found in any other source. Also try "Spit in the Ocean" No. 6. Both these

texts seem necessary to any thorough Neal Cassady study, once you've read

Carolyn Cassady's "Off the Road," of course.

-Michael L. Buchenroth

Michael L. Buchenroth

mike@buchenroth.com

www.buchenroth.com

To view

Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

go to

www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:57:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge pts.1 thru 5 (last word? egad??)

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970520202722.48962B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

raindogs and nighthawks

applaud.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:29:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Nice people swallow..

Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

Paul

????

********************************************************************************

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH.

> But the truth may be that there is more then one truth.

> Unless the truth is that there is only one truth.

>

> non-believer of truth unless it's true

> Attila

And I would further contend that all truth is infinitly mallable and

will be a different truth tomorrow.

Except maybe that nice people swallow--that one stays constant.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:41:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge pts.1 thru 5 (last word? egad??)

INFREQUENT PASSAGE

"Writing a poem is like taking a hot beer shit..."

---Charles Bukowski

Seven years sober

Seventy-seven deadend relationships

To be discarded

Or better yet

Excreted

Thanks to a Higher Powered Laxative

Blown out the ass

Of codependency and addiction

Thanks to a high fiber program

Prescribed by Bill Wilson, Alice Miller and John Bradshaw

Trusting the Process

Releasing the Past, and

Surrendering

To the Absolute Colonic Dharma

Of Consciousness

Paul McDonald (c) 1993

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:47:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: fudge wont budge pts.1 thru 5 (last word? egad??)

At 09:41 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>INFREQUENT PASSAGE

>

> "Writing a poem is like taking a hot beer shit..."

>

> ---Charles Bukowski

>

>Seven years sober

>Seventy-seven deadend relationships

>To be discarded

>Or better yet

>Excreted

>Thanks to a Higher Powered Laxative

>

>Blown out the ass

>Of codependency and addiction

>Thanks to a high fiber program

>Prescribed by Bill Wilson, Alice Miller and John Bradshaw

>Trusting the Process

>Releasing the Past, and

>Surrendering

>To the Absolute Colonic Dharma

>Of Consciousness

>

>Paul McDonald (c) 1993

Yahoo! Bravo! (while doin' the wave)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:10:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:

>

> Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

>

> Paul

> ????

>

It is simple.

Premise #1 Swallowing is a basic biological process.

Premise #2 Nice People swallow

Therefore Niceness is a basic biological process for people.

the same thinking applies somewhat to other notions such as "inhaling"!!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:49:01 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

RACE --- wrote:

>

> Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:

> >

> > Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

> >

> > Paul

> > ????

> >

> It is simple.

>

> Premise #1 Swallowing is a basic biological process.

> Premise #2 Nice People swallow

> Therefore Niceness is a basic biological process for people.

>

> the same thinking applies somewhat to other notions such as "inhaling"!!

David,

I like this logic. "Nice people do" works for me. They certainly

inhale. This suggests logical problems for mc's "mean people suck"

since sucking is also basic biological behavior and therefore nice?

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:00:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Conspiracies -- you gotta love em!

Hi, Gerry. Why would I sell these two letters (count 'em, TWO letters) that

I bought from the Estate, 6 years ago now!? They are warm and dry, I can

assure you. Anyone who's interested can come on up and look at them, if they

call ahead. In the meantime they seem to irritate you & jogrant so much --

heck, they're worth every penny!

Besides, Gerry, I'm practically choking on cash here just at the moment,

after just sealing a deal to sell my "Nicosia Correspondence Archive" to

some anonymous "collector" in Lowell. He said he'd heard about it in one of

your posts to the Beat-List. The guy seemed desperate, I can tell you, in the

end offering several times what you scared up for your entire MEMORY BABE

archive back in 1987. I was pretty surprised -- who says Lowell doesn't

celebrate Kerouac! Greek vacation, here I come. Where's my sunblock,....

CHEERS, Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:21:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Conspiracies -- you gotta love em!

At 11:00 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi, Gerry. Why would I sell these two letters (count 'em, TWO letters) that

>I bought from the Estate, 6 years ago now!? They are warm and dry, I can

>assure you. Anyone who's interested can come on up and look at them, if they

>call ahead. In the meantime they seem to irritate you & jogrant so much --

>heck, they're worth every penny!

>Besides, Gerry, I'm practically choking on cash here just at the moment,

> after just sealing a deal to sell my "Nicosia Correspondence Archive" to

>some anonymous "collector" in Lowell. He said he'd heard about it in one of

>your posts to the Beat-List. The guy seemed desperate, I can tell you, in the

>end offering several times what you scared up for your entire MEMORY BABE

>archive back in 1987. I was pretty surprised -- who says Lowell doesn't

>celebrate Kerouac! Greek vacation, here I come. Where's my sunblock,....

>CHEERS, Rod

>

Dear Rod, May 21, 1997

OKAY, keep your Kerouac letters. They were the least of my worry

anyhow.

I have spent three weeks trying to get some real answers about how

much of the KEROUAC ARCHIVE JOHN SAMPAS HAS LEFT, AND WHAT HE INTENDS TO DO

WITH IT, AND WHEN. Instead, I just keep getting more personal attacks from

you and Chaput.

Your attacks on me even predated my coming on to the Beat-List; in

fact, they were a major cause of my appearance here, in order to set the

record straight.

I have been asking for you and Chaput to substantiate some of your

claims (the way I have substantiated mine against John Sampas, with specific

examples of what he has done to control Kerouac scholarship). Where are

your examples, to prove that I am greedy, power-mad, crazy, manipulative,

whatever? Other than that I haven't donated to Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

(See post later today from Brad Parker about the ethical lapses of LCK!)

It seems to me if anyone has been propounding a conspiracy theory,

IT'S YOU AND CHAPUT. Everything I'm doing--and the work of all my supposed

cohorts, like Grant and Parker--is supposed to have been geared toward my

gaining control of, and money from, the Kerouac Archive.

But if I am so greedy and power-mad, why didn't I:

1) ask Jan for money from the beginning?

2) keep a substantial portion of the benefit money for myself (we

brought in over twenty thousand dollars gross, and I kept $300 as my salary

for 6 months solid work)?

3) get Jan to include me as a beneficiary in her will?

The biggest question, of course, IS HOW DID I KNOW SHE WAS GOING TO

DIE IN JUNE, THREE MONTHS BEFORE HER CASE WAS GOING TO TRIAL? How do you

plan the death of someone on kidney dialysis, when they can live from one

month to fifteen years? AND IF JAN HAD TAKEN THE CASE TO TRIAL HERSELF,

WHAT GAIN WOULD I HAVE HAD THEN? DID I PUT IN YEARS OF WORK AT HER SIDE

JUST ON THE CHANCE THAT SHE'D DIE BEFORE THE CASE CAME TO TRIAL, SO THAT I

COULD TAKE OVER???

That's a more farfetched conspiracy theory than even Oliver Stone is

capable of.

Well, suppose it is true that I gambled on Jan dying before the

trial. SHOW ME HOW I AM GOING TO GET RICH OR HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF

KEROUAC SCHOLARSHIP, even if we win Jan's lawsuit. Even should we win, and

should I remain fully-empowered literary executor, I will still have to deal

with John Sampas (1/3 owner), Paul Blake, Jr. (1/3 owner), and, quite

possibly, Jan's heirs--depending on how the court construes the final

authority. I'm sure as hell going to have to compromise to make things

work, and I'm ready to compromise. But where is Mr. Sampas? Is he offering

to compromise at all?

I haven't seen Mr. Sampas budge one inch, and yet you guys never

bother showering him with the barbs you shower on me.

Imagine for a minute, Rod, someone making endless charges about your

character--claiming to all the world that you are corrupt thru and thru, and

yet they give not one real example to prove this alleged corruption.

WOULDN'T YOU BE A LITTLE TICKED OFF???

Again, I rest my case.

Adios, old friend,

Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:11:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Brad Parker Speaks

To members of the Beat-List, May 21, 1997

Mr. Brad Parker lives in Chelmsford, Massachusetts. He created the

Lowell Corporation for the Humanities over ten years ago. He has used this

group to stage events celebrating many of the important folk who lived in or

passed thru Lowell, such as Edgar Allen Poe and Betty Davis, as well as Jack

Kerouac. He is also an author of some distinction, having written a fine

introductory book on Kerouac, as well as highly praised monographs on Poe

and other historical figures.

Recently, Mr. Parker learned of certain denials made by Phil Chaput

that there was ever any trouble between the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

committee and the National Park Service. Mr. Parker asked me to post his

memory of these events on the Beat-List.

The following statement was made by Brad Parker on May 16, 1997:

"Enclosed is some information concerning the events surrounding the

celebration of Jack Kerouac in Lowell, 1988-1996, and--especially--facts

concerning myself and the Kerouac Committee (now called 'Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!').

"For years, the group in Lowell that thought of itself as the

'official' Kerouac group was getting Federal aid through the Lowell Historic

Preservation Commission, and, more recently, through their connection with

the Lowell National Historic Park. Now, they can no longer receive

assistance from the Preservation Commission, which went out of business, nor

are they any longer cosponsored by the National Park.

"The person most responsible for the termination of the official

relationship between the Kerouac Committee and the National Park is

myself--Brad Parker, founder of the Lowell Corporation For The Humanities,

Inc. The whole process (discussion-conflict) that led eventually to the

termination of the relationship between the Kerouacians and the Nat. Park

started in 1995 when I wrote to (and subsequently met with) the Supt. of the

National Park, Richard Rambur. Basically, I had two complaints

(requests)--that the Kerouac events sponsored by my organization be included

in any printed programs or publicity that might be issued by either the Nat.

Park or the Kerouac Committee, and that my organization also receive federal

assistance through the Nat. Park if such were being granted to other people

doing Kerouac programs in Lowell. [My corporation was largely responsible

for arranging the scholarly forum on Kerouac's Lowell books in 1988, and I

am the author of a book on Kerouac that has been used with students at

several universities.]

"After my initial requests, I found that there was great resistance

from the Kerouac Group, and the Nat. Park was suggesting that I had to join

the Kerouac Group in order to be included in the 'offical' cosponsored

events. Later, after further agitation on my part, including letters to

Washington, I received a letter from Sandy Walter (Oct., 1995)--formerly the

Supt. of the Nat. Park in Lowell--stating that the Nat. Park "does indeed

support the work of your organization and further supports your right to

request either co-sponsorship of the Festival and/or have

Corporation-sponsored events included in the Festival schedule." Such never

happened, and I have always assumed that it was largely resistance from a

few of the Kerouac leaders in Lowell who were unwilling to act in an

inclusive, mature, sophisticated, and professional manner. I believe that

there was conflict over this matter and that the Park and the Kerouac Group

could not resolve the issue.

"I finally received a letter from Richard Rambur, the Supt. of the

Lowell Nat. Park, stating that the relationship between the Park and Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! had been 'officially terminated' by 'mutual consent' as

of the end of February, 1996. Additionally, I was told by someone who has

connections with both groups that there were certain deprecatory remarks

made about Mr. Rambur at one of the Kerouac Group's meetings, and that those

remarks made their way back to Supt. Rambur.

"There is, as you know, much more that can be said about these

matters, but I shall end here with just another sentence or two. I brought

Jan Kerouac to Lowell twice--she was never invited by the 'official' Kerouac

Group, even when the memorial to her father was to be dedicated. And, as I

have told a number of people, I was the target of verbal intimidation by one

of the main Kerouacians in Lowell, and also have been the target of some

verbal assault by another of that same group. I issued a formal comlaint

about the above to The Preservation Commission in 1994 and never have

received a complete answer!

"All for the moment. Please feel free to share this letter with

anyone who might wish to know of the above events relating to Lowell and

Kerouac.

"Best Regards -- Brad Parker (historian and writer)"

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:25:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> To members of the Beat-List, May 21, 1997

>

> Mr. Brad Parker lives in Chelmsford, Massachusetts. He created the

> Lowell Corporation for the Humanities over ten years ago. He has used this

> group to stage events celebrating many of the important folk who lived in or

> passed thru Lowell, such as Edgar Allen Poe and Betty Davis, as well as Jack

> Kerouac. He is also an author of some distinction, having written a fine

> introductory book on Kerouac, as well as highly praised monographs on Poe

> and other historical figures.

> Recently, Mr. Parker learned of certain denials made by Phil Chaput

> that there was ever any trouble between the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

> committee and the National Park Service. Mr. Parker asked me to post his

> memory of these events on the Beat-List.

> The following statement was made by Brad Parker on May 16, 1997:

>

> "Enclosed is some information concerning the events surrounding the

> celebration of Jack Kerouac in Lowell, 1988-1996, and--especially--facts

> concerning myself and the Kerouac Committee (now called 'Lowell Celebrates

> Kerouac!').

> "For years, the group in Lowell that thought of itself as the

> 'official' Kerouac group was getting Federal aid through the Lowell Historic

> Preservation Commission, and, more recently, through their connection with

> the Lowell National Historic Park. Now, they can no longer receive

> assistance from the Preservation Commission, which went out of business, nor

> are they any longer cosponsored by the National Park.

> "The person most responsible for the termination of the official

> relationship between the Kerouac Committee and the National Park is

> myself--Brad Parker, founder of the Lowell Corporation For The Humanities,

> Inc. The whole process (discussion-conflict) that led eventually to the

> termination of the relationship between the Kerouacians and the Nat. Park

> started in 1995 when I wrote to (and subsequently met with) the Supt. of the

> National Park, Richard Rambur. Basically, I had two complaints

> (requests)--that the Kerouac events sponsored by my organization be included

> in any printed programs or publicity that might be issued by either the Nat.

> Park or the Kerouac Committee, and that my organization also receive federal

> assistance through the Nat. Park if such were being granted to other people

> doing Kerouac programs in Lowell. [My corporation was largely responsible

> for arranging the scholarly forum on Kerouac's Lowell books in 1988, and I

> am the author of a book on Kerouac that has been used with students at

> several universities.]

> "After my initial requests, I found that there was great resistance

> from the Kerouac Group, and the Nat. Park was suggesting that I had to join

> the Kerouac Group in order to be included in the 'offical' cosponsored

> events. Later, after further agitation on my part, including letters to

> Washington, I received a letter from Sandy Walter (Oct., 1995)--formerly the

> Supt. of the Nat. Park in Lowell--stating that the Nat. Park "does indeed

> support the work of your organization and further supports your right to

> request either co-sponsorship of the Festival and/or have

> Corporation-sponsored events included in the Festival schedule." Such never

> happened, and I have always assumed that it was largely resistance from a

> few of the Kerouac leaders in Lowell who were unwilling to act in an

> inclusive, mature, sophisticated, and professional manner. I believe that

> there was conflict over this matter and that the Park and the Kerouac Group

> could not resolve the issue.

> "I finally received a letter from Richard Rambur, the Supt. of the

> Lowell Nat. Park, stating that the relationship between the Park and Lowell

> Celebrates Kerouac! had been 'officially terminated' by 'mutual consent' as

> of the end of February, 1996. Additionally, I was told by someone who has

> connections with both groups that there were certain deprecatory remarks

> made about Mr. Rambur at one of the Kerouac Group's meetings, and that those

> remarks made their way back to Supt. Rambur.

> "There is, as you know, much more that can be said about these

> matters, but I shall end here with just another sentence or two. I brought

> Jan Kerouac to Lowell twice--she was never invited by the 'official' Kerouac

> Group, even when the memorial to her father was to be dedicated. And, as I

> have told a number of people, I was the target of verbal intimidation by one

> of the main Kerouacians in Lowell, and also have been the target of some

> verbal assault by another of that same group. I issued a formal comlaint

> about the above to The Preservation Commission in 1994 and never have

> received a complete answer!

> "All for the moment. Please feel free to share this letter with

> anyone who might wish to know of the above events relating to Lowell and

> Kerouac.

> "Best Regards -- Brad Parker (historian and writer)"

patricia typed

cool, nice tone, very informative,

i appreciate the meat sans bile, easier to digest.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:48:18 +0000

Reply-To: davo@cjnetworks.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Ohle <davo@CJNETWORKS.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

Patricia: I'm lurking again on Beat-L. Must have missed all the recent

controversies. What's happening?

David Ohle

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:39:40 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: john cage-haiku #2 (what is happened to me?)

.,-\H a

,.i,\k..u

mahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

KKK

zen

Oooh, questo non lo sopporto!this doesn't bear it

bum!

KKK

zen

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

WHEN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD IS FAST ASLEEP

Brrrrrrrrrrr!

brrr

KKK

Dostoevskij KKK bum! MUNCH bum! KKK Wu!

favelle favelle favelle

KKK KKK KKK

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:51:40 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

In-Reply-To: <199705210458.VAA14948@italy.it.earthlink.net>

>Dear Phil, May 20, 1997

>

> You and Anstee should both go far--and the sooner you start, the

better.

>

> HAHAHAHAHA!

> Gerry

>

>

Gerry, caro paesano,

ben detto!

Gli amici girano

per kilometri

secondo dopo secondo

alla fine del mondo.

Un saluto dall'Italia!

rinaldo *what's happen to rinaldo?*

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:40:10 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: john cage-Haiku, john cage is alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970521032654.00698900@pop.tiac.net>

>The fudge

>Won't budge

>Try exlax

>

>

>

>(sorry I couldn't resist)

>

>

.............oh.ah.............

.............ha.ho.............

.............o..a..............

.............a..o..............

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:28:05 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: john cage-haiku #1

tah toh tahh tohh

at 21:00

gronk gronk

at 21:01

clock

JOHN CAGE IS ALIVE, HE IS TALKING... TO ME!

what is happened to me?

r\ i

\

n a\

\

l

\ d

\ o .

------------.......-----------

"Todas las granas de arena del desierto de

Chihuahua son vacuidad!" Jack Kerouac the dharma bums

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:48:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Chaput is Back

Dear Phil, May 21, 1997

To answer one of your reasonable questions--concerning the 2,000

xeroxed Kerouac letters in the MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell.

(Letters that are now under seal because of John Sampas's threat to take

legal action against the library if they show them without his permission.)

The reason they were xeroxes is because by far the majority of those

people I interviewed would not let me carry off their original Kerouac

letters. But they let me xerox them for my own use.

I did, by the way, get a chance to compare originals to xeroxes, and

to write in any parts that didn't appear clearly on the xeroxes, and also to

add on a few passages that (yes) actually got cut off by the xerox machines.

(The only original was a post card from Jack to John Montgomery, but

that is one of the documents that was stolen from my archive.)

I never said scholars didn't sometimes have to use xeroxes.

SOMETIMES THEY DO. But they are far inferior to using originals (many

xeroxers are not as meticulous as I was). Whenever possible, a scholar

wants access to originals.

So it is no excuse for John Sampas to tell us he has made xeroxes of

everything he has sold--although I haven't even heard him claim that much.

Certainly, if he cares about Kerouac scholarship, he would take pains to see

that the originals are preserved forever in a library.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

P.S. You also better go back to law school, or perhaps you were cutting

classes the day they went over property rights. If I pay for a xerox copy,

that piece of paper belongs to me, and I can give it away or sell it or burn

it--whatever I please. I cannot, however, sell copyright in material I have

xeroxed, and I made clear to U Mass, Lowell, that they were not acquiring

copyright in ANY PART OF THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE. If I tried to sell

copyright in Jack Kerouac's letters, Mr. Sampas would have sued me a long

time ago.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:48:16 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

>David wrote:

>>Patricia: I'm lurking again on Beat-L. Must have missed all the recent

>>controversies. What's happening?

>>

>>David Ohle

>>

>i'm a beatspotting...

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:09:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

well, for months at least four guys have been hot talking about the jk

estate, this one guy, (gerald (who has battered writers syndrome)

believes that jacks mothers will was forged and that the late jan k and

jacks impoverished nepher should share in the estate, he is also

concerned that the sampas are selling piecmeal various jk letters. Phil

chaput and ron anstee are facimile virgins and get down on (name calling

and attacking) gerry, and jo grant. I have saved all the posts and

could identify the threads if they are of interests. sometimes it is

real interesting and sometimes i am just glad to be a woman, haha.

by the way, this response should be enough to get my toes toasted, but

happily they are asbestos.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:10:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: foucault

Who is foucault, is he fun to read.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:22:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: john cage-haiku #1

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521192805.00b64de4@pop.gpnet.it>

must say, rinaldo, this is so far one of my favoite of your performance

pieces in 2 dimentional space. thanks.

mc

> tah toh tahh tohh

> at 21:00

> gronk gronk

> at 21:01

> clock

>

>

>

>JOHN CAGE IS ALIVE, HE IS TALKING... TO ME!

>

> what is happened to me?

>

> r\ i

> \

> n a\

> \

> l

>\ d

> \ o .

>------------.......-----------

>

>"Todas las granas de arena del desierto de

>Chihuahua son vacuidad!" Jack Kerouac the dharma bums

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:33:25 +0000

Reply-To: davo@cjnetworks.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Ohle <davo@CJNETWORKS.COM>

Subject: Re: foucault

Patricia: I think he's a contemporary French social philosopher. Some

people think he's fun to read. Of course, it may also be the inventor

of the pendulum. D.O.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:25:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

In-Reply-To: <33833A5E.65BD@sunflower.com>

you GO girl!

..what she said!

mc

>well, for months at least four guys have been hot talking about the jk

>estate, this one guy, (gerald (who has battered writers syndrome)

>believes that jacks mothers will was forged and that the late jan k and

>jacks impoverished nepher should share in the estate, he is also

>concerned that the sampas are selling piecmeal various jk letters. Phil

>chaput and ron anstee are facimile virgins and get down on (name calling

>and attacking) gerry, and jo grant. I have saved all the posts and

>could identify the threads if they are of interests. sometimes it is

>real interesting and sometimes i am just glad to be a woman, haha.

>

>by the way, this response should be enough to get my toes toasted, but

>happily they are asbestos.

>p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:55:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: karmic check-up from JK hisself/pome of day

In-Reply-To: <33833A5E.65BD@sunflower.com>

from : The Scripture of the Golden eternity

1

did i create that sky? yes, for, if it was

anything other than a concepton in my mind

i wouldnt have said 'sky' --that is why i am the

golden eternity. there are not two of us here,

reader and writer, but one, one golden eternity,

one-which-it-is,-that-which-everything-is

3

that sky, if it was anything other than an

illusion of my mortal mind i wouldnt have said

'that sky,' thus i made that sky, i am the

golden eternity. i am mortal golden eternity.

4

i was awakened to show the way, chosen to

die in the degradation of life, because i am

mortal golden eternity.

5

i am the golden eternity in mortal animate form.

6

strictly speaking, there is no me, because all is

emptiness. i am empty, i am non-existent

7

this truth law has no more reality than the world

8

you are the golden eternity because there is

no me and no you, only one golden eternity.

9

the realizer. entertain no imaginations whatever,

for the thing is a no-thing. knowing this then

is human godhood.

10

this world is the movie of what everything is,

it is one movie, made up of the same stuff

throughout, belonging to nobody, which is what

everything is.

11

if we wre not all the golden eternity we

wouldnt be here. because we are here we

cant help being pure. to tell man to be pure on

account of the punishiing angel that punishes the

bad and the rewarding angel that rewards the good

would be like telling the water 'be wet' --never

the less, all things depend on suprene reality,

which is already established as the record of

karma-earned fate.

12

god is not outside us but is just us, the

living and the dead, the never-lived and

never-died. that we should learn it only now, is

supreme reality, it was witten a log time ago

in the archives of universal mind, it is already

done, there's no more to do

13

this is the knowledge that sees the golden

eternity in all things, which is us, you,

me, and which is no longer us, you, me

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:05:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Where is Gerry Nicosia?

Ron Guest writes:

"Where is Gerry Nicosia? I noticed a couple of beat-ls have baited

him a little, but no reply. This guy can't be gone."

Dear Ron and fellow Beat-Ls: May 21, 1997

No "conspiracy" was involved in my recent disappearance from the

Beat-List. I just returned from four days in Chicago, attending the 30th

reunion of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW).

Most of the talks and workshops had to do with veterans working for

peace and healing. It was nice not to be called greedy or power-mad by

anyone for a few days.

I expect Mr. Sampas probably feels under attack much of the time,

just as I do. Perhaps he feels I wish to prove that HE is greedy and

power-mad. I would like to believe that he is neither; that he is a

reasonable man who wants to do the right thing.

The problem, you say, is that Sampas's vision of what is right is

different from Nicosia's. That does not preclude some form of compromise

vision, however.

Let's look at Mr. Sampas's options:

1) He can continue to refuse to deal with the Kerouac family (Paul

Blake, Jr.) and Jan Kerouac's literary executor, myself. This option, at

least temporarily, gives him the right to do whatever he wishes with Jack

Kerouac's entire archive.

Under this option, 5 different results can occur:

A) He can continue to sell off Jack Kerouac's papers to

dealers and collectors, and keep all the money for himself and his family.

However, he runs the risk of a court injunction, as long as the Florida

lawsuit has not been dismissed.

B) He can choose to sell Jack Kerouac's papers to a library,

and keep all the money for himself and his family. Again, as long as the

Florida lawsuit has not been dismissed, he runs the risk of a court

nullifying the deal and ordering his family to repay all the money.

C) He can wait, hoping that Mr. Nicosia will be successfully

removed as Jan Kerouac's literary executor; and that when that happens,

Jan's 2 heirs will still be willing to complete their deal with him and

dismiss the Florida lawsuit. Once it is dismissed, he can proceed to sell

off Jack Kerouac's papers or put them into a library--as he chooses--without

fear of court restraint.

D) He waits, but Mr. Nicosia is not removed. The case in

Florida goes to trial, and he wins. The end result is the same as in C)

above. He can now do as he pleases with Jack Kerouac's papers forever.

E) The result Mr. Sampas would rather not think about. Mr.

Nicosia is not dismissed. The case goes to trial in Florida, and Mr. Sampas

loses. Gabrielle's will is disqualified. Jan Kerouac's estate, and the

living Paul Blake, Jr., come in for at least 2/3 ownership of everything.

The court will now decide how much or how little right the Sampas family has

to what remains. The Sampases may be asked to make restitution for almost

30 years' of money they have received from Jack Kerouac's estate without an

actual legal right to more than a third of it (the dower's right).

2) Mr. Sampas chooses to negotiate with Jan Kerouac's literary

executor, Gerald Nicosia, and Paul Blake, Jr.

Under option 2, there are 3 possible results:

A) Mr. Sampas makes clear that he seeks vindication at law;

that he feels his family has full right to every dollar earned by Jack

Kerouac's estate, and they choose, if possible, to keep everything for

themselves. However, MR. SAMPAS AGREES THAT JACK KEROUAC'S PAPERS SHOULD BE

PRESERVED IN A LIBRARY AND MADE ACCESSIBLE TO SCHOLARS NOW, since the

scholarly community has already waited almost 30 years.

Mr. Sampas, Mr. Blake, and Mr. Nicosia, through their

lawyers, agree on a library and a price, and the sale of Jack Kerouac's

archive is made with the approval of the Circuit Court of Pinellas County,

Florida.

The court arranges for all the money, probably $1-2 million,

to be placed in escrow, or some form of trust account, which will be

administered by the court until the Florida case is tried and a final

decision is reached, or until the suit is eventually dismissed. At the time

of final decision or dismissal, the money in the trust account will be

disbursed according to the decree of the court.

B) Mr. Sampas, while continuing to insist that Gabrielle

Kerouac's will was not forged, prefers to settle this matter out of court.

He agrees that Jack Kerouac's papers should be preserved and made accessible

in a library now, and he is also wiling to concede that Jan Kerouac's heirs

and Gabrielle Kerouac's only living grandchild, Paul Blake, Jr., should have

some share of the financial benefits from Jack Kerouac's estate. Perhaps

less than 1/3, or perhaps a full 1/3 each, but without the right to claim

restitution for any of the past 30 years' of earnings which the Sampas

family has already been paid.

He is also willing to share some portion of the

decision-making power concerning where the archive ends up--share that power

with Paul Blake, Jr., and with Jan Kerouac's lawfully-appointed literary

executor, Gerald Nicosia. (This would require peace between Mr. Lash and

Mr. Nicosia, but since Mr. Lash has been taking his cues from Mr. Sampas,

that should not be a problem.)

Obviously, there is much room for negotiation in this scenario.

IMHO, Option 2, either A or B, holds the brightest future

for all those with a serious interest in Jack Kerouac's works and in Jack

Kerouac scholarship. It would mean the entire Jack Kerouac archive could

become accessible within a matter of months--and that such accessibility

would be permanent and not subject to being undone by a court.

There is RESULT C) however: Negotiations break down, and we

revert to Option 1.

I wish to state here, in public, my willingness and desire to work

with Mr. Sampas on making some form of Option 2, A or B, come to fruition.

That is, if Mr. Sampas is willing to negotiate now, I would do my best to

reach some agreement with him that would make the Kerouac archive accessible

to the scholarly community as soon as possible.

I cannot, of course, speak for Paul Blake, Jr. He is represented by

his own attorney, Mr. WIlliam Wagner, of Tampa, Florida. But while Jan was

alive, Paul signed a document with Jan indicating that he would gladly

negotiate with Mr. Sampas to get the Jack Kerouac archive into a library and

accessible as soon as possible, and I have no reason to believe he has

changed his mind about that.

I am aware that Mr. Sampas may be loath to negotiate in public,

especially here on the internet. For that reason, I am going silent here

for a month--at least on the subject of the Estate Fight. I may pipe up

from time to time about something else, and I will still answer private

email queries at GNicosia@earthlink.net. I WISH TO ASSURE MR. SAMPAS,

HOWEVER, THAT IF HE REQUIRES COMPLETE CONFIDENTIALITY FROM ME DURING

NEGOTIATIONS, HE SHALL HAVE IT.

Mr. Sampas knows where I am, and he knows how to reach my attorney.

I hope I may eventually have something good to report to you all on

this score--or perhaps I should state more accurately, that WE [since

several people are involved] will have something good to report.

In the meantime, I would encourage all of you to follow Jerry

Cimino's suggestion, and let Mr. Sampas know what you feel is the best

course for him to take. The ball is now in his court, and I await his next

move.

We know he scrutinizes the Beat-List postings about the estate; or

if you prefer to contact him privately, you can write or fax him care/of his

agent: Sterling Lord-Literistic, 65 Bleecker St., NY NY 10012. Fax:

212-780-6095. You may or may not choose to share these communications with me.

ONE MORE THING, A GENTLE WARNING:

Mr. Chaput claims there is now an 8-page list of Kerouac pieces in

the New York Public Library placed there by Mr. Sampas. (By the way, how

about printing that list here for us right now, instead of revealing it only

to the buyers of Maher's magazine?)

Even if Mr. Sampas has sold some new pieces to the New York Public

Library (I'm waiting to hear if they are SIGNIFICANT pieces), THERE IS STILL

A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS METHOD OF PUTTING THE KEROUAC ARCHIVE ON LIBRARY

DEPOSIT.

THE PROBLEM IS THIS:

Once you have removed many significant pieces from the archive, no

other major university is going to put up big bucks (read: $1-2 million) to

house what is left of the archive. I have talked to the library directors

at Bancroft, Stanford, and Texas, and they stated very strongly that they

would NOT be interested AT ALL in acquiring a "gutted archive." This means

that Mr. Sampas, by doling Kerouac's archive out piece by piece to the New

York Public, virtually commits himself to that library. But suppose that in

a year, or several years, down the line, the New York Public Library gets a

new archive director who dislikes Kerouac; or, even more likely, the City of

New York runs out of money to spend on luxuries like literary archives.

If that happens, the NYPL is no longer in a position to buy the

remainder of the Jack Kerouac archive, and now no other major library wants

what is left. There may be thousands of pieces of paper left, but no major

library is going to spend the money and time archiving and offering them to

the public, if they cannot lay claim to keeping a reasonably intact collection.

What happens then? Obviously, John Sampas or his heirs just auction

off the remainder to collectors and dealers for whatever they can get for it.

ONCE AGAIN, LET ME STATE: JACK KEROUAC'S ARCHIVE IS TOO IMPORTANT TO

BE ALLOWED TO SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS OF TIME AND CHANCE IN THIS MANNER.

Hoa Binh (that's "peace" in Vietnamese)

Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:15:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: of interest to some

In-Reply-To: <v01530500afa5f96e4eea@[204.181.15.86]>

tricycle, the buddhist review, spring editon

has lots of wonderful stuff.

issue has big section, dharma 101: back to basics; well done and of

interest to those of little or large knowledge both

and a excellent (in my opin) review of snyder's mts and rivers without end.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:21:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: to the beat Hatfields and Mcoys

In-Reply-To: <970520120134_-1230690775@emout03.mail.aol.com>

now, i got nuthin agin feuding, fellers,

but some times folks just got te take it out to the back- 40

(in cyberspeak, offlist)

just my opin.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:12:04 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <970521092959.2df0@louisville.lib.ky.us>

At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

>

>Paul

>????

erm.

Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

such as "nice people swallow".

It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

Get it now? ;)

ttfn.

Lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:32:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow...

Swallowing seamen when they go to the head? I knew there was a tradition of

cannibalism in the Navy but I thought it was relatively under control...

Yours

Emily (Whats all this I hear about endangered feces) Litella

a.k.a.

Paul

!!!!!!!

*******************************************************************************

At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

>

>Paul

>????

erm.

Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

such as "nice people swallow".

It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

Get it now? ;)

ttfn.

Lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:48:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>

> At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

> >

> >Paul

> >????

>

> erm.

> Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

> popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

> such as "nice people swallow".

> It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

> Get it now? ;)

>

> ttfn.

> Lisa

> --

>

> Lisa M. Rabey

> Internet and Computer Consultant

> San Francisco, California

> http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

> **************************************

> General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

perhaps a demonstration would help everyone understand ....

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:56:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------53A3738B4C8B

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i hope that the trip to Chicago was rewarding. i'd seriously intended

to visit Thomas Park here and Salina to witness a small celebration in

route to the larger ones. i thought it would be an interesting learning

experience. unfortunately, sinus infections and chemical imbalances

found me passed out on the couch.

i was wondering if you knew anything about the below. So far, nobody

has shared any information.

--------------53A3738B4C8B

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <33802A81.3819@midusa.net>

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 05:25:05 -0500

From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: Beat-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Secret Mullings About Bill

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i saw reference yesterday to something like this being a work in

progress of Kerouac's at some point.

given that i'm a burroughs' junkie (and seem to becoming a Kerouacian as

well) i'd love to read Jack's insights into William.

was this ever published in any form? are there photocopies in some

vault?

david rhaesa

--------------53A3738B4C8B--

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:58:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <3383519E.3E4A@midusa.net>

At 02:48 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>>

>> At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

>> >

>> >Paul

>> >????

>>

>> erm.

>> Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

>> popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

>> such as "nice people swallow".

>> It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

>> Get it now? ;)

>>

>> ttfn.

>> Lisa

>> --

>>

>> Lisa M. Rabey

>> Internet and Computer Consultant

>> San Francisco, California

>> http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

>> **************************************

>> General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

>

>perhaps a demonstration would help everyone understand ....

>

Sure! No problem ;)

HOW TO SUCK COCK - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS.

By: Anonymous

LESSON ONE

I am not sure if it was because I grew up in a household with

brothers or whether I would have had the same feelings and

inclinations had I been an only child but I do know that from the

time of my earliest memories I have been fascinated with penises.

Let's talk about the "basic penis." I regard oral sex as the

highest form of expression of love that can be exchanged between

two people. Hopefully this information will help you to break down

any barriers which you might have that would prevent you from

expressing your love in this way and from receiving a

reciprocation from your male companion.

First things first. LOOK at the cock. I do not mean a

cursory glance not a hurried, surreptitious examination. Take

enough time that you convince your companion that some kind of

treat is in store for him provided he will allow you to do with

him, and particularly with his cock, exactly what you want.

Place him flat on his back on your bed, in a well lighted

room. Take his cock in your hand and LOOK at it. He probably will

not have the will power to stay soft, but then again you are

worshipping his very essence. Few men can stay soft under these

circumstances, when it is apparent that the person LOOKING at his

cock is worshipping.

When you first start to touch him, his cock will become hard

and be in a state where your examination will be meaningful.

Wouldn't it be nice if going to the doctor for an examination was

as enriching?

The cock must be hard if you are to be able to note the

important parts-those parts sensitive to stimulation by your lips

and tongue.

The first thing you will note is whether or not he is

circumcised. Circumcision is not universally practiced: there are

advantages and disadvantages to penises in both conditions from

the standpoint of providing oral caresses that bring the highest

kind of delight to your man.

Next take a close look at the shaft of the penis itself.

There is a bulbous part of the organ near the outer end, slightly

larger in diameter than the shaft, which is often called the head.

Technically this is the glans penis (comes from the Latin glans

which means acorn. Look at it closely; does kind of look like an

acorn doesn't it?)

The outside perimeter of the glans penis is the corona. This

joins the head to the shaft. This is the most sensitive spot on

the penis. It is toward this ridge that you will direct most of

your attention when you are giving head. Follow this ridge around

to the underside of the penis. You know that I like to call it the

underbelly. I am particularly fond of the underbelly!

You will notice a point of juncture where the two ends of

this irregular circle come together. If your partner is not

circumcised, this will also be the point where the foreskin is

attached. This tiny area is easily the most sensitive spot on his

entire body, and it is possible to bring your partner to climax

simply by gently tapping the tip of your tongue directly on it.

Spend time caressing the glans and those areas immediately

surrounding it.

Beneath the glans is the shaft of the penis. The shaft does

not have many nerve endings and does not, therefore, provide a man

with any high degree of stimulation when caressed either manually

or with your tongue to the exclusion of the glans penis itself.

It always amazes me to note the number of confirmed cocksuckers

who believe that sucking up and down on the shaft will get the guy

off. That's not it folks! If it works it is because the back of

your throat is playing tricks on his glans penis. Your throat is

giving head to his head!

Beneath the shaft are the testicles (balls, jewels, call

them what you like, but let's not ignore their significance). The

testicles are extremely sensitive to pain and are not usually

considered subject to erotic stimulation to any particular degree.

Not true! You can add a high degree of pleasure for him by paying

the right kind of attention to the balls!

Now lets go back to the shaft of the matter. The opening in

the tip of the glans penis is the meatus. Here is where the cum

spurts. (I could have said semen is ejaculated but I did not want

to sound too professional).

There are other parts of a man's body which respond with

alacrity to oral stimulation.

Many men are particularly sensitive around the nipples. The

first time I kissed my partner's nipples he shot before I had the

chance to even get near his cock. While I have not been able to

duplicate this in the laboratory setting (he hates to go near the

lab with me) my partner still gets extremely turned on by my

lingual nipple caresses.

So LOOK at your partner's penis. Study it. Learn its areas

of special sensitivity completely and be ready to apply your

knowledge to his body with your tongue and with your lips when you

bend your loving head over his cock. There is nothing that you can

do which more clearly shows your love for him than the worship you

can provide his cock!

LESSON TWO

The sad fact is that most people, men and women, do not have

the slightest idea of how to suck cock. Most seem to think that

simply by making a cunt of their mouth, closing it around a man's

penis, and bobbing their heads lustily up and down until he

climaxes automatically makes them expert cocksuckers. Au

contraire!

Consummate skill is required to suck a man's cock and

provide him with the highest degree of pleasure possible. When I

first started my quest I really had no one to turn to for advice

and counsel. It was all hunt and suck. Hunt and suck. Find that

one technique that could and would set him on fire! I had to

learn from my experiences and while I would not want to deny you

the innate pleasure that these experiences will bring I would hate

to see you lose a great companion because of your inexperience and

lack of expertise.

Let's assume that you have taken that opportunity to LOOK at

his penis. To explore each area of the penis to find the most

sensitive parts. That you have gotten beyond "Parts is parts" and

recognize that some parts are more equal than others.

In order for you to observe your man's reactions and get the

most information possible about his responses try the following:

While his erect penis points toward the ceiling, cup his

balls in one hand and gently, using only your tongue, lick softly,

but carefully along the entire underside of his erect organ. As

you suck along the underbelly you will learn those areas that give

him the greatest pleasure when your tongue is touching them.

Unless he is made of stone, your partner will provide you with

vivid clues as to which areas are most pleasurable.

As you discover these areas of enhanced pleasure concentrate

on them. For most men the most sensitive area will be the point

where the ring (or corona) of the head and the foreskin are

attached. Or were attached prior to his circumcision. By

continued licking and tapping along this area with your tongue you

are going to bring forth a geyser. If you are not skilled and you

want to please him in a hurry I suggest that you get him off in

this manner in order to become familiar at first hand with the

nature and delight of his climax.

As he is getting ready for climax you will note changes in

his penis. These signs will be the same every time he climaxes so

that you can prepare for his cum properly. The head of the cock

may swell somewhat larger then it is during the normal course of

his erection. He may thrust his hips forward as he wants to send

his

body hurtling out his cock with his cum. And for most men,

immediately prior to the cum, there will appear at the tiny,

lovely lips at the tip of the cock a clear drop or two of fluid.

When you see this or feel the opening at the meatus through his

condom you know that the moment of truth is at hand. Launch the

torpedoes, full cum ahead!

Where should you be when you are sucking his cock? Between

his legs, on top of him, in a sixty nine position? Where?

Because of the structure of his penis, as well as the structure of

your mouth, lips, tongue, and teeth, you can provide the highest

degree of sensation to yourself and your partner by kneeling

between his legs and approaching his cock from the bottom rather

than from the side or the top. Don't believe me? Try the various

positions (I describe in later chapters techniques to be used with

each position). See what works best for you and your partner.

LESSON THREE

Place his stiff cock inside your mouth but do not tighten

your lips around the shaft. With your head begin a circle motion.

The cock will slide to different places in your mouth as you

continue the circle motion. Watch your teeth on this one. A

kneeling position will suffice but it is also effective when your

partner is on his back and your head is directly over his cock.

The circle should be executed in both clockwise and

counterclockwise motions in a slow purposeful manner. I found many

guys in New York who seem to prefer this technique above all

others. I met one guy who could circle a cock for hours and I

found myself having multiple orgasms while his mouth circled my

cock. I didn't lose my hard-on after each cum. When the technique

is performed correctly it means many hours of unadulterated

pleasure.

LESSON FOUR

With your man sitting in an elevated position and you on

your knees in front of him lift his hard cock to reveal his balls.

With your tongue find the underside of his balls. Now, while

resting his balls on your wet tongue, lick in an upward motion to

the very tip of his cock. It is permissible to use your hands in

this technique. It is bettor to do this technique several times

in succession-like licking a lollipop or ice cream cone. I grew up

down south. And one thing about southern boys, we learn early how

to get if off quickly when the need is there. And the lollipop

lick is the one technique in this book which few men can tolerate

for long periods of time without cumming.

LESSON FIVE

Right now lets discuss a technique that is probably the

most common cocksucking technique in the world. Take his cock in

your mouth but not deeply. We will get to deep-throating later

on. It's great, not over-rated, but if you want to be an expert

at deep throat start with the right techniques and work your way

down, so to speak.

Take his cock in your mouth by sliding your moistened tongue

lovingly over the head until your lips close around the shaft at

the point just behind the corona. Don't just open your mouth and

close it around his cock. Slide it in. He will enjoy it much more.

Encase the shaft of his penis with your hand. Remember the

shaft is relatively insensitive to any kind of stimulation. By

enclosing his penis with your hand you give him the sensation of

having his penis encased.

Now you have several options. Try twisting your head from

side to side making sure your moist lips stay in contact with the

coronal ridge. While doing this gently move your hand up and down

the shaft. When he climaxes he may want to push your head further

down the shaft of his penis. He wants to envelop you with his

cock. As you are learning his climax you will miss the fine points

if you deep throat at this time. Instead gently suck around the

corona as he climaxes so that you can intensify his pleasure and

increase the force of his orgasm.

As you gain more experience you will be able to tell exactly

when his climax is approaching and you will be ready for that

initial spurt out the rubber.

LESSON SIX

There is one further refinement to this basic technique

which will heighten his orgasm. If you place your thumb at the

very base of the penis in such a way as to block the tube through

which the cum spurts, the semen cannot escape even though he is

spasming and going through the reflex action of ejaculating semen.

If at the same time you suck vigorously on the head of his

cock you can delay his cum for several long moments. When you

finally allow the cum to spurt it will last much longer and be

just as intense as a result. Even though you delay the cum for

only a few short moments you will be surprised by the intensity of

his cum.

These techniques are the basis of cocksucking. Do not go

beyond them until you have become an expert, not only in the

techniques themselves, but also in the reading and interpreting of

your partner's responses to such a point that you know exactly how

he is getting off on what you are doing. When you have reached

this point, you are ready for the more subtle, more advanced

techniques.

Don't be so slavish that you miss out on the fun of self

discovery. Find out what works for you and for your partner and

make your cocksucking as individual as your signature. After all,

you want your man to pick you out in the dark among hundred

slobbering cocksuckers.

LESSON SEVEN

One of the first things you encountered when you first

started to suck cock was a gag reflex. Most men seem to want to

force their cocks down your throat as far as they can get it.

Particularly at the moment when they cum!

Consider for a moment that the average length of your oral

cavity is three to three and a half inches while the average

Caucasian cock length is five to five and a half inches. The laws

of nature would seem to dictate that getting all that cock into

your mouth is an impossibility.

It can be done. You probably know someone who can do it and

that is why you purchased this book to begin with. It is possible

to master the necessary technique. I don't want to be boring, but

if you understand your anatomy you will begin to understand the

requirements that allow you to take his hard cock into your mouth

and down your throat. The biggest obstacle to taking all of his

cock down your throat is the fact that there is a bend of almost

ninety degrees behind your tongue leading down into your throat.

So the first thing to do is get the cock past that angle.

Get past the angle of the dangle!

In order to practice this, get in a position where you can

turn your head in such a way that your mouth and throat lie almost

in a straight line. The best position to accomplish this is to lie

on a bed so that your head is near the edge with your body

sprawled across the bed so that your head is tipped sharply back.

This position will put your mouth and throat nearly in a line and

will allow your partner to approach you in such a way that

insertion of his cock can be made so deeply that his pubic hair

presses against your lips.

LESSON EIGHT

Today we will practice mastering physical reaction that must

be alleviated before the art of deep penetration can fully be

enjoyed. The natural tendency of the body to gag when a foreign

object such as a deeply thrusting cock being forced down your

throat. You can overcome this tendency by completely relaxing

your throat at moment the insertion is made. It is equally

important that you maintain this relaxation during the entire deep

throating.

Let him put his cock down your throat and hold it still

while you find the most comfortable way to proceed. Because of

your position you will not be able to move or to offer him any

greater stimulation than simply keeping your mouth tightly closed

around his throbbing cock. If you are able try to stimulate his

underbelly with your tongue, do it!

You will only be able to relax and take his cock in this way

if you completely thrust your partner. Your partner is in full

control. He must initiate and maintain all the motion. This is

the only exercise in which you relinquish your control of the

situation to your partner. He will relish this for the simple fact

that for the first time he can insert his cock as deeply down your

throat as he wants to. Now your partner begins an in and out

movement that is just like fucking. He should start slowly,

especially if this is a completely

new experience for the two of you. After all if he hurts you he

cuts himself off from one of the great pleasures in life. His

only other requirement during this exercise is to keep the motion

in the same direction throughout this oral exercise as there is

simply no leeway for him to vary the motion from side to side.

One other word of caution.

Don't let your partner get carried away at the moment he

starts to cum. At that spectacular moment he will be able for the

first time to thrust his cock all the way inside your oral cavity

and that is the most important lesson of this exercise! His only

other requirement during the exercise is to keep the motion in the

same against your lips as he cums. Because of your position in

bed you will not be faced with the problem of swallowing his cum.

And this is not just because he has a condom on his dick. The

reason is because he has gotten his cock BEYOND your gag reflex!

Without the rubber his cum would shoot directly into your stomach!

If both you and your partner understand what it is that you are

trying to do as well as the possible problems that may "cum" up

along the way no harm or discomfort will happen to either of you.

It is possible that not everyone will learn the "deep

throat" technique but this inability does not make you any less a

cocksucker. You must allow your throat to relax completely while

your partner is thrusting his cock this deeply down your throat.

To do this long enough for your partner to completely get it off

is very difficult and may require practice beyond this day. It

may be that you will be able to take your partner completely down

your throat, but you will not be able to maintain proper

relaxation of your throat to until he shoots his load. Hopefully

your partner will understand that this is not a rejection of him

or of what he is offering you, and it is my sincere desire that

you not stop here and think that you will never master the "deep

throat" technique.

Continue to practice this lesson. I know couples who have

devoted ten months to this lesson alone. Continue to practice

this technique because your practice will allow you to take his

cock deeper into your throat each time and for longer periods of

time. Ultimately you will succeed. If you have the desire you

will get this one down pat!

LESSON NINE

Now lets turn to another portion of your partner's anatomy

which should not be ignored-the family jewels. Here are two

objects which can enhance your partner's feelings more than any

other. Many people do not think of the balls as primary sexual

objects. Many men are extremely sensitive and just as in lesson

eight there must be a certain amount of trust built up between the

two of you before he will willingly let you have undisputed use of

these two pearls of delight!

For today's lesson begin by gently licking his balls with

your tongue. As your partner becomes more trusting you may begin

to play with his nipples with your fingers gradually increasing or

decreasing the intensity as you gauge how he is responding. You

may want to gently caress his cock with your hand while you are

bathing his balls with your tongue.

Remember that the balls are extremely sensitive to pain and

he will lose his trust in you if you do not respect any limits he

places on them just as you have the right to place limits on the

back of your throat until you are completely ready to receive him.

It is possible once you have built up this trust to take

both his balls in your mouth. He will be more receptive to this if

you thoroughly wet them with your tongue prior to taking them into

your mouth. Unless your partner is into the new fad of complete

body shaving he will have tiny hairs on his testicles. By giving

the balls a complete tongue bath prior to taking them into your

mouth, you will have pressed these hairs down along the surface of

the sac and will not inadvertently cause pain by pulling on them.

This may seem a small lesson but you will discover an

entirely new world of sensations for your partner when you take

the time to get to know his testicles!

LESSON TEN

I hesitated to include this into your lesson plan but

finally I decided that if you are aware of the safest way to do

this technique that my responsibility for giving you the tools to

be the best cocksucker you can be will be satisfied.

Analingus.

Putting your tongue to his anal opening.

Ass sucking.

Before you even consider doing this, make certain that your

partner is clean. Immediately out of the shower. Place a piece of

Saran wrap over the butt. At no time should your tongue come into

contact with the anal surface itself.

For this lesson place your partner on his back with his legs

in the air and his knees close to his shoulders. This spreads his

buttocks apart and allows you access to his butthole.

You are probably under the impression that actual

penetration of the asshole itself is necessary for your partner to

receive the most complete enjoyment of this technique. Not so

mojo! The nerve endings around the anus itself have no

discrimination and you will get him off just as well and as

thoroughly by licking around the area as if you stick your tongue

up his butt!

As with some of your other lessons this technique will not

usually be enough to get him to cum, but I feel that it is

important to know all aspects of your partner's body in order to

give him the most complete pleasure you can. You may find that

after many hours of oral pleasure you need to have other areas to

concentrate on in order to give him the satisfaction he deserves.

Analingus is a powerful stimulant and when combined with

other activities such as vigorous hand stimulation on his cock

will cause a rapid and powerful cum!

LESSON ELEVEN

For most of our lessons the only thing required is yourself,

your partner, and a condom. Maybe some Saran wrap. A plastic glove

or two. Well, another toy that will enhance your pleasure is a

mini-

vibrator. For this lesson you may want to start with your finger.

Then as you and your partner become more accustomed to each other

you may find him a little intrigued about the vibrator and what it

can do for him.

As you are giving head begin a slow playful search around

his

ass. Many men are particularly sensitive in this area and it will

enhance the sensations that your mouth and tongue and throat are

giving his cock to feel a finger playing with his butt. As your

partner relaxes and allows you access, gently insert your gloved

finger into his butt. Go slowly exploring the velvety sensations

along the sides of his opening.

When your finger is inside his asshole completely you will

be at the area of the prostate gland. Massage of this gland by

your finger will produce some of the most delightful sensations

your partner has yet to experience. I remember going to the

doctor for a physical the first time I felt this sensation. I

could hardly wait to get home and have my partner try it out on me

again. While it was a bit embarrassing to cum in the doctor's

office, the feelings that the doctor inadvertently produced were

so strong that I wanted to experience them again and again!

A gloved finger is really all that is required for this

lesson. However some members of the Cocksuckers Club of America

report to me that a mini-vibrator works exceptionally well for

this type of stimulus. It is just the same length as the average

finger and due to the vibrations that it produces the sensations

against the prostate gland are even more enhanced!

If your partner likes this stimulation you must then

discover which method he likes best. Some men prefer an in an out

movement with the finger or the vibrator while others do not. I

personally find this painful--too much like a stab in the dark. I

prefer the finger or vibrator to be placed against the prostate

gland and left there to do its most. Whichever method your partner

prefers is the one you should use.

One other point. When your partner cums there will be a

natural tendency for him to push the finger or vibrator out of his

asshole. The asshole muscles are spasming and anything in the way

will be forced out. But to maximize his pleasure you must not let

this happen. Hold your finger or the vibrator firmly in place--

this will help to stimulate the sperm production to its maximum.

Many people have questioned me about a vibrator around the

cock itself. Does it add to the sensation or not?

It does for my partner, it does not for me. That seems to be

the consensus of opinion of other readers of FRENCH CUISINE

MAGAZINE as well. I suggest as long as you have the vibrator handy

anyway, try it around the penis. When you are licking his balls.

When you are licking his asshole. If he gets off on it, then feel

free to use the vibrator around his dick and balls. If he hates

the sensation obviously don't try it again.

LESSON TWELVE

There are times when you will want to get him off in a

hurry! I always say that Southern boys learn this one first and

then expand their repertory from that point. But because I want

you to become an expert at all aspects of oral lovemaking I

deliberately waited until now to introduce this technique. It

differs from lesson four in that you are a more consummate

cocksucker now. He will love it all the more if he realizes that

this is not the only trick you have down your mouth!

It is a very simple technique and if you understand your

partner's basic cock anatomy you will grasp this one easily.

Place your lips around the head of your partner's cock and twirl

your lips wetly and gently around the coronal ridge at the back of

the head of his penis. This does not require any great

cocksucking skill and it works simply because this is the area

that is most sensitive on your partner's cock.

It is not necessary to be a skillful cocksucker. All that

is necessary is for you to find the most sensitive area around the

coronal area. By sucking on this area of his cock continuously

you will produce a quick powerful cum. It is not necessary to bob

your head up and down on his cock to get him off. One other use

of this technique is to get him hard again after he cums and you

will soon find him rip roaring to go

again.

LESSON THIRTEEN

Don't be surprised if you find yourself going back to this

lesson for seconds. We discussed briefly at the end of lesson 12

a technique to get him going again if he has recently cum. Today

after you have gotten your man off, let's concentrate on some

techniques to get him back on again. Not just to get him hard but

to keep him hard. Hard enough to want to cum again!

After he has cum you may need other techniques to keep him

hard and to keep him interested. Many men (not all but a good

portion of us) are exhausted by a single cum and while it is

possible to get your partner up again you have a long way to go

before you get him to cum again.

Cocksucking alone at this time is usually not enough to get

him off. You will need to combine some of the techniques you have

learned earlier with your basic cocksucking technique to stimulate

the juices for a second and third go around. Don't hesitate in

your exploration of his body at this time. His nipples, his balls,

his asshole. His armpits. His earlobes.

For the second cum you are free to really get into his body

and explore all those erotic areas that you missed when you were

concentrating on his cock exclusively. His navel. His toes.

One of the things I find most exciting about the second cum

is the lack of expectation that you must get him to climax within

a certain time frame. You have all the time in the world to

really give his total body a complete tongue bath. You can

explore his body safely and completely and really get to know the

total body as well as you know his delightful dick! This is

merely a sign that you are becoming a true connoisseur of

cockflesh. A title I am proud to hold.

LESSON FOURTEEN

Soixante-Neuf

Sixty Nine

Sixty nine is not always the perfect way to provide your

partner oral satisfaction. Inadvertently one of you will "let up"

your end of the cocksucking in order to experience the subtle

pleasures the other partner is giving you. For this reason I have

included it as the final lesson. Many people think that the deep

throat technique is the ultimate pleasure you can give your

partner. Actually I believe that sixty-nine is the ultimate

pleasure.

Done correctly and unselfishly when both of you are

completely in tune with each others innermost desires, the sixty

nine is the ultimate. But because of the problem mentioned earlier

in this lesson, most people practice it too early and it becomes

an intensely satisfying experience for one partner at the expense

of the other. When you are completely on each other's wavelength

you will discover that this is the most effective way of giving as

well as receiving pleasure.

The element that must be in place is simple: Both of you

must

be consummate cocksuckers! If you have a partner who is not in

the least interested in giving head and only likes to receive it

then to attempt sixty-nine is to ask for unhappiness in your

relationship.

TECHNIQUES

As editor of FRENCH CUISINE MAGAZINE I sometimes send out

questionnaires to our members to find out more. I question them

about their desires, and their favorite ways to practice safe and

sane oral sex

Here are some of the most popular variations on cocksucking.

THE BUTTERFLY FLUTTER

The best position for this very sensuous cocksucking

movement is kneeling over your partner. If he is on his back kneel

between his legs. Or kneel in front of your partner while he

stands. I like this position because the cock feels thicker in

your mouth and throat and you have complete freedom to play with

his balls while performing this maneuver.

This technique was first introduced to me by a cocksucker in

northern California. There was a notorious movie theater in

downtown San Francisco with a darkened balcony. A cocksucker's

haven. And this guy had us lined up. You knew from the moans

emanating from the guy's throat who was getting his cock sucked

that this guy was that one in a thousand who knew how to please a

variety of fresh cockmeat. It felt so good that I studied him

closely while he was sucking cock. Not only did I observe the guys

who were getting the radical suck, but I got down close to the

cock and observed how he was maneuvering around it. He created the

basic vacuum pressure on the cock but only enough pressure to pull

the cock into his mouth ever so slightly.

With his lips firmly wrapped around the guy's big swollen

cock head and shaft he would gently flick the tip of the cock with

his tongue. With his lips open around the cock at a depth so that

he could touch the tip of the cock with the tip of his tongue.

With his lips around the cock shaft he would make an up and down

movement with his tongue. He would flutter his tongue up and down

the tip of the cock.

I recommend you try it. It will drive your Butterfly Flutter

partner back into your mouth at any hour you want him there. After

several minutes of this continue with the basic vacuum suck.

THE TRAVELING FIGURE EIGHT

After you have become comfortable with the basic vacuum suck

and you have become accustomed to his cock deep in your mouth and

throat, try this action. It is guaranteed to take his

breath away. With your lips firmly wrapped around the cock shaft

try very slowly to reach the base of the shaft or as close to it

as you are comfortable. Your nose should be buried in or at least

touching the pubic hairs at the base of the cock.

With your nose trace a figure eight as if the figure eight

were lying on its side. Your figure eight motion should be three

to four inches long. Slowly travel up the shaft of the cock to

the head, doing the figure eight motion. Keep doing this motion

and let your lips firmly travel up and down the cock shaft. Do

this for as long as you are comfortable with it. Believe me your

man is floating in orbit as his wildest dreams of the ultimate

blowjob are coming true.

I give credit for this most erogenous technique to a member

of "The Cocksuckers Club of America" who lives in Oregon. He and

his partner were on vacation down in Southern California and they

visited me while here. After seeing him scrape his partner off the

ceiling when he did the Traveling Figure Eight, I rushed right

into my bedroom and perfected it on my own partner! When you get

tired of the movement slow down and return to the basic vacuum

suck.

By this time you are becoming more and more confident with

your partner. His cock feels great as it fills your mouth and

throat. The cock is becoming harder and warmer as your warm moist

mouth and throat create friction by going up and down that big

beautiful cock. It is time to cool his tool just a little with

this technique.

I take full credit for this one myself! From the time I hit

puberty I was fascinated by cocks. Big ones, little ones, cut

ones, uncut ones, crooked ones, straight ones. All shapes, all

sizes. I wanted to feel them down my throat! Combine this very

basic love of cocksucking with an inherent fear of not being able

to take cock and completely satisfy the customer and you can

imagine how I felt. I needed a technique that would feel good in

my mouth and would feel good for my partner. Here's what I came up

with:

Go down on the cock shaft as far as you are comfortable. All

the while your lips should be firmly wrapped around the shaft.

Open your mouth as wide as you can and suck in as much air as your

lungs will hold. While sucking in air let your open mouth travel

up to the cock head. Your up stroke motion should end at the head

of his cock just as your lungs fill with air. Now with your mouth

still open let the air in your lungs out slowly through your mouth

as your opened mouth travels back down the cock shaft. This

technique cools the cock on the up stroke and warms the cock with

your hot breath on the down stroke. Do this movement as long as

you like then return to the basic vacuum suck method.

CONGRATULATIONS!

You are doing just fine and he loves it!

Keep it up as long as you are comfortable with it.

For his added pleasure and to give you something to play

with reach up and fondle his balls. Or go up even further and

play with his nipples. This will give him something else to

concentrated on so he doesn't pop his cock yet. If you feel he is

about to cum stop what you are doing and let him cool off for a

few minutes. After all you are having fun and you want to enjoy

his cock as much as you can until you get tired of it. Then let

him pop his cock! But not yet. He likes it too much and he wants

it to last as long as you can keep it going.

THE CIRCLE

Place his stiff cock inside your mouth but do not tighten

your lips around the shaft. With your head begin a circle motion.

The cock will slide to different places in your mouth as you

continue the circle motion. Watch your teeth on this one.

A kneeling position will suffice but it is also effective

when your partner is on his back and your head is directly over

his cock. The circle should be executed in both clockwise and

counterclockwise motions in a slow purposeful manner.

THE LOLLIPOP LICK

With your man sitting in an elevated position and you on

your knees in front lift his hard cock to reveal his balls. With

your tongue, find the underside of his balls. Now, while resting

his balls on your wet tongue, lick in an upward motion to the very

tip of his cock. It is permissible to use your hands in this

technique. It is better to do this technique several times in

succession-like licking a lollipop or ice cream cone.

There you go!

Enjoy! ;)

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:08:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: foucault

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> Who is foucault, is he fun to read.

> p

he's french. was french. had a bowl of pot near him to help in his

writing. some think he is hard to read. some think he easy to read.

they are both liars. he is very different to read. his history of

sexuality is interesting in digging through the history of sexual

discourse. madness and civilization was nice for me given that it was a

similar treatment concerning notions of insanity and the like.

my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

david rhaesa

salina kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:10:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

Lisa,

you are a treasure.

p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:28:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

So does anyone have suggestions or best methods for cleaning off my

computer screen now?

david rhaesa

Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>

> At 02:48 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

> >>

> >> At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >> >Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

> >> >

> >> >Paul

> >> >????

> >>

> >> erm.

> >> Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

> >> popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

> >> such as "nice people swallow".

> >> It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

> >> Get it now? ;)

> >>

> >> ttfn.

> >> Lisa

> >> --

> >>

> >> Lisa M. Rabey

> >> Internet and Computer Consultant

> >> San Francisco, California

> >> http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

> >> **************************************

> >> General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

> >

> >perhaps a demonstration would help everyone understand ....

> >

>

> Sure! No problem ;)

>

> HOW TO SUCK COCK - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

> WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS.

>

> By: Anonymous

>

> LESSON ONE

>

> I am not sure if it was because I grew up in a household with

> brothers or whether I would have had the same feelings and

> inclinations had I been an only child but I do know that from the

> time of my earliest memories I have been fascinated with penises.

> Let's talk about the "basic penis." I regard oral sex as the

> highest form of expression of love that can be exchanged between

> two people. Hopefully this information will help you to break down

> any barriers which you might have that would prevent you from

> expressing your love in this way and from receiving a

> reciprocation from your male companion.

> First things first. LOOK at the cock. I do not mean a

> cursory glance not a hurried, surreptitious examination. Take

> enough time that you convince your companion that some kind of

> treat is in store for him provided he will allow you to do with

> him, and particularly with his cock, exactly what you want.

> Place him flat on his back on your bed, in a well lighted

> room. Take his cock in your hand and LOOK at it. He probably will

> not have the will power to stay soft, but then again you are

> worshipping his very essence. Few men can stay soft under these

> circumstances, when it is apparent that the person LOOKING at his

> cock is worshipping.

> When you first start to touch him, his cock will become hard

> and be in a state where your examination will be meaningful.

> Wouldn't it be nice if going to the doctor for an examination was

> as enriching?

> The cock must be hard if you are to be able to note the

> important parts-those parts sensitive to stimulation by your lips

> and tongue.

> The first thing you will note is whether or not he is

> circumcised. Circumcision is not universally practiced: there are

> advantages and disadvantages to penises in both conditions from

> the standpoint of providing oral caresses that bring the highest

> kind of delight to your man.

> Next take a close look at the shaft of the penis itself.

> There is a bulbous part of the organ near the outer end, slightly

> larger in diameter than the shaft, which is often called the head.

> Technically this is the glans penis (comes from the Latin glans

> which means acorn. Look at it closely; does kind of look like an

> acorn doesn't it?)

> The outside perimeter of the glans penis is the corona. This

> joins the head to the shaft. This is the most sensitive spot on

> the penis. It is toward this ridge that you will direct most of

> your attention when you are giving head. Follow this ridge around

> to the underside of the penis. You know that I like to call it the

> underbelly. I am particularly fond of the underbelly!

> You will notice a point of juncture where the two ends of

> this irregular circle come together. If your partner is not

> circumcised, this will also be the point where the foreskin is

> attached. This tiny area is easily the most sensitive spot on his

> entire body, and it is possible to bring your partner to climax

> simply by gently tapping the tip of your tongue directly on it.

> Spend time caressing the glans and those areas immediately

> surrounding it.

> Beneath the glans is the shaft of the penis. The shaft does

> not have many nerve endings and does not, therefore, provide a man

> with any high degree of stimulation when caressed either manually

> or with your tongue to the exclusion of the glans penis itself.

> It always amazes me to note the number of confirmed cocksuckers

> who believe that sucking up and down on the shaft will get the guy

> off. That's not it folks! If it works it is because the back of

> your throat is playing tricks on his glans penis. Your throat is

> giving head to his head!

> Beneath the shaft are the testicles (balls, jewels, call

> them what you like, but let's not ignore their significance). The

> testicles are extremely sensitive to pain and are not usually

> considered subject to erotic stimulation to any particular degree.

> Not true! You can add a high degree of pleasure for him by paying

> the right kind of attention to the balls!

> Now lets go back to the shaft of the matter. The opening in

> the tip of the glans penis is the meatus. Here is where the cum

> spurts. (I could have said semen is ejaculated but I did not want

> to sound too professional).

> There are other parts of a man's body which respond with

> alacrity to oral stimulation.

> Many men are particularly sensitive around the nipples. The

> first time I kissed my partner's nipples he shot before I had the

> chance to even get near his cock. While I have not been able to

> duplicate this in the laboratory setting (he hates to go near the

> lab with me) my partner still gets extremely turned on by my

> lingual nipple caresses.

> So LOOK at your partner's penis. Study it. Learn its areas

> of special sensitivity completely and be ready to apply your

> knowledge to his body with your tongue and with your lips when you

> bend your loving head over his cock. There is nothing that you can

> do which more clearly shows your love for him than the worship you

> can provide his cock!

>

> LESSON TWO

>

> The sad fact is that most people, men and women, do not have

> the slightest idea of how to suck cock. Most seem to think that

> simply by making a cunt of their mouth, closing it around a man's

> penis, and bobbing their heads lustily up and down until he

> climaxes automatically makes them expert cocksuckers. Au

> contraire!

> Consummate skill is required to suck a man's cock and

> provide him with the highest degree of pleasure possible. When I

> first started my quest I really had no one to turn to for advice

> and counsel. It was all hunt and suck. Hunt and suck. Find that

> one technique that could and would set him on fire! I had to

> learn from my experiences and while I would not want to deny you

> the innate pleasure that these experiences will bring I would hate

> to see you lose a great companion because of your inexperience and

> lack of expertise.

> Let's assume that you have taken that opportunity to LOOK at

> his penis. To explore each area of the penis to find the most

> sensitive parts. That you have gotten beyond "Parts is parts" and

> recognize that some parts are more equal than others.

> In order for you to observe your man's reactions and get the

> most information possible about his responses try the following:

> While his erect penis points toward the ceiling, cup his

> balls in one hand and gently, using only your tongue, lick softly,

> but carefully along the entire underside of his erect organ. As

> you suck along the underbelly you will learn those areas that give

> him the greatest pleasure when your tongue is touching them.

> Unless he is made of stone, your partner will provide you with

> vivid clues as to which areas are most pleasurable.

> As you discover these areas of enhanced pleasure concentrate

> on them. For most men the most sensitive area will be the point

> where the ring (or corona) of the head and the foreskin are

> attached. Or were attached prior to his circumcision. By

> continued licking and tapping along this area with your tongue you

> are going to bring forth a geyser. If you are not skilled and you

> want to please him in a hurry I suggest that you get him off in

> this manner in order to become familiar at first hand with the

> nature and delight of his climax.

> As he is getting ready for climax you will note changes in

> his penis. These signs will be the same every time he climaxes so

> that you can prepare for his cum properly. The head of the cock

> may swell somewhat larger then it is during the normal course of

> his erection. He may thrust his hips forward as he wants to send

> his

> body hurtling out his cock with his cum. And for most men,

> immediately prior to the cum, there will appear at the tiny,

> lovely lips at the tip of the cock a clear drop or two of fluid.

> When you see this or feel the opening at the meatus through his

> condom you know that the moment of truth is at hand. Launch the

> torpedoes, full cum ahead!

> Where should you be when you are sucking his cock? Between

> his legs, on top of him, in a sixty nine position? Where?

> Because of the structure of his penis, as well as the structure of

> your mouth, lips, tongue, and teeth, you can provide the highest

> degree of sensation to yourself and your partner by kneeling

> between his legs and approaching his cock from the bottom rather

> than from the side or the top. Don't believe me? Try the various

> positions (I describe in later chapters techniques to be used with

> each position). See what works best for you and your partner.

>

> LESSON THREE

>

> Place his stiff cock inside your mouth but do not tighten

> your lips around the shaft. With your head begin a circle motion.

> The cock will slide to different places in your mouth as you

> continue the circle motion. Watch your teeth on this one. A

> kneeling position will suffice but it is also effective when your

> partner is on his back and your head is directly over his cock.

> The circle should be executed in both clockwise and

> counterclockwise motions in a slow purposeful manner. I found many

> guys in New York who seem to prefer this technique above all

> others. I met one guy who could circle a cock for hours and I

> found myself having multiple orgasms while his mouth circled my

> cock. I didn't lose my hard-on after each cum. When the technique

> is performed correctly it means many hours of unadulterated

> pleasure.

>

> LESSON FOUR

>

> With your man sitting in an elevated position and you on

> your knees in front of him lift his hard cock to reveal his balls.

> With your tongue find the underside of his balls. Now, while

> resting his balls on your wet tongue, lick in an upward motion to

> the very tip of his cock. It is permissible to use your hands in

> this technique. It is bettor to do this technique several times

> in succession-like licking a lollipop or ice cream cone. I grew up

> down south. And one thing about southern boys, we learn early how

> to get if off quickly when the need is there. And the lollipop

> lick is the one technique in this book which few men can tolerate

> for long periods of time without cumming.

>

> LESSON FIVE

>

> Right now lets discuss a technique that is probably the

> most common cocksucking technique in the world. Take his cock in

> your mouth but not deeply. We will get to deep-throating later

> on. It's great, not over-rated, but if you want to be an expert

> at deep throat start with the right techniques and work your way

> down, so to speak.

> Take his cock in your mouth by sliding your moistened tongue

> lovingly over the head until your lips close around the shaft at

> the point just behind the corona. Don't just open your mouth and

> close it around his cock. Slide it in. He will enjoy it much more.

> Encase the shaft of his penis with your hand. Remember the

> shaft is relatively insensitive to any kind of stimulation. By

> enclosing his penis with your hand you give him the sensation of

> having his penis encased.

> Now you have several options. Try twisting your head from

> side to side making sure your moist lips stay in contact with the

> coronal ridge. While doing this gently move your hand up and down

> the shaft. When he climaxes he may want to push your head further

> down the shaft of his penis. He wants to envelop you with his

> cock. As you are learning his climax you will miss the fine points

> if you deep throat at this time. Instead gently suck around the

> corona as he climaxes so that you can intensify his pleasure and

> increase the force of his orgasm.

> As you gain more experience you will be able to tell exactly

> when his climax is approaching and you will be ready for that

> initial spurt out the rubber.

>

> LESSON SIX

>

> There is one further refinement to this basic technique

> which will heighten his orgasm. If you place your thumb at the

> very base of the penis in such a way as to block the tube through

> which the cum spurts, the semen cannot escape even though he is

> spasming and going through the reflex action of ejaculating semen.

> If at the same time you suck vigorously on the head of his

> cock you can delay his cum for several long moments. When you

> finally allow the cum to spurt it will last much longer and be

> just as intense as a result. Even though you delay the cum for

> only a few short moments you will be surprised by the intensity of

> his cum.

> These techniques are the basis of cocksucking. Do not go

> beyond them until you have become an expert, not only in the

> techniques themselves, but also in the reading and interpreting of

> your partner's responses to such a point that you know exactly how

> he is getting off on what you are doing. When you have reached

> this point, you are ready for the more subtle, more advanced

> techniques.

> Don't be so slavish that you miss out on the fun of self

> discovery. Find out what works for you and for your partner and

> make your cocksucking as individual as your signature. After all,

> you want your man to pick you out in the dark among hundred

> slobbering cocksuckers.

>

> LESSON SEVEN

>

> One of the first things you encountered when you first

> started to suck cock was a gag reflex. Most men seem to want to

> force their cocks down your throat as far as they can get it.

> Particularly at the moment when they cum!

> Consider for a moment that the average length of your oral

> cavity is three to three and a half inches while the average

> Caucasian cock length is five to five and a half inches. The laws

> of nature would seem to dictate that getting all that cock into

> your mouth is an impossibility.

> It can be done. You probably know someone who can do it and

> that is why you purchased this book to begin with. It is possible

> to master the necessary technique. I don't want to be boring, but

> if you understand your anatomy you will begin to understand the

> requirements that allow you to take his hard cock into your mouth

> and down your throat. The biggest obstacle to taking all of his

> cock down your throat is the fact that there is a bend of almost

> ninety degrees behind your tongue leading down into your throat.

> So the first thing to do is get the cock past that angle.

>

> Get past the angle of the dangle!

>

> In order to practice this, get in a position where you can

> turn your head in such a way that your mouth and throat lie almost

> in a straight line. The best position to accomplish this is to lie

> on a bed so that your head is near the edge with your body

> sprawled across the bed so that your head is tipped sharply back.

> This position will put your mouth and throat nearly in a line and

> will allow your partner to approach you in such a way that

> insertion of his cock can be made so deeply that his pubic hair

> presses against your lips.

>

> LESSON EIGHT

>

> Today we will practice mastering physical reaction that must

> be alleviated before the art of deep penetration can fully be

> enjoyed. The natural tendency of the body to gag when a foreign

> object such as a deeply thrusting cock being forced down your

> throat. You can overcome this tendency by completely relaxing

> your throat at moment the insertion is made. It is equally

> important that you maintain this relaxation during the entire deep

> throating.

> Let him put his cock down your throat and hold it still

> while you find the most comfortable way to proceed. Because of

> your position you will not be able to move or to offer him any

> greater stimulation than simply keeping your mouth tightly closed

> around his throbbing cock. If you are able try to stimulate his

> underbelly with your tongue, do it!

> You will only be able to relax and take his cock in this way

> if you completely thrust your partner. Your partner is in full

> control. He must initiate and maintain all the motion. This is

> the only exercise in which you relinquish your control of the

> situation to your partner. He will relish this for the simple fact

> that for the first time he can insert his cock as deeply down your

> throat as he wants to. Now your partner begins an in and out

> movement that is just like fucking. He should start slowly,

> especially if this is a completely

> new experience for the two of you. After all if he hurts you he

> cuts himself off from one of the great pleasures in life. His

> only other requirement during this exercise is to keep the motion

> in the same direction throughout this oral exercise as there is

> simply no leeway for him to vary the motion from side to side.

>

> One other word of caution.

>

> Don't let your partner get carried away at the moment he

> starts to cum. At that spectacular moment he will be able for the

> first time to thrust his cock all the way inside your oral cavity

> and that is the most important lesson of this exercise! His only

> other requirement during the exercise is to keep the motion in the

> same against your lips as he cums. Because of your position in

> bed you will not be faced with the problem of swallowing his cum.

> And this is not just because he has a condom on his dick. The

> reason is because he has gotten his cock BEYOND your gag reflex!

> Without the rubber his cum would shoot directly into your stomach!

> If both you and your partner understand what it is that you are

> trying to do as well as the possible problems that may "cum" up

> along the way no harm or discomfort will happen to either of you.

> It is possible that not everyone will learn the "deep

> throat" technique but this inability does not make you any less a

> cocksucker. You must allow your throat to relax completely while

> your partner is thrusting his cock this deeply down your throat.

> To do this long enough for your partner to completely get it off

> is very difficult and may require practice beyond this day. It

> may be that you will be able to take your partner completely down

> your throat, but you will not be able to maintain proper

> relaxation of your throat to until he shoots his load. Hopefully

> your partner will understand that this is not a rejection of him

> or of what he is offering you, and it is my sincere desire that

> you not stop here and think that you will never master the "deep

> throat" technique.

> Continue to practice this lesson. I know couples who have

> devoted ten months to this lesson alone. Continue to practice

> this technique because your practice will allow you to take his

> cock deeper into your throat each time and for longer periods of

> time. Ultimately you will succeed. If you have the desire you

> will get this one down pat!

>

> LESSON NINE

>

> Now lets turn to another portion of your partner's anatomy

> which should not be ignored-the family jewels. Here are two

> objects which can enhance your partner's feelings more than any

> other. Many people do not think of the balls as primary sexual

> objects. Many men are extremely sensitive and just as in lesson

> eight there must be a certain amount of trust built up between the

> two of you before he will willingly let you have undisputed use of

> these two pearls of delight!

> For today's lesson begin by gently licking his balls with

> your tongue. As your partner becomes more trusting you may begin

> to play with his nipples with your fingers gradually increasing or

> decreasing the intensity as you gauge how he is responding. You

> may want to gently caress his cock with your hand while you are

> bathing his balls with your tongue.

> Remember that the balls are extremely sensitive to pain and

> he will lose his trust in you if you do not respect any limits he

> places on them just as you have the right to place limits on the

> back of your throat until you are completely ready to receive him.

> It is possible once you have built up this trust to take

> both his balls in your mouth. He will be more receptive to this if

> you thoroughly wet them with your tongue prior to taking them into

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:38:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Tiffany N. Merriman" <MoonStarr9@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: "a baneful influence"

Oh, come on. Mean people suck...Where's your sadistic, cynical nature?

People suck is a better statement. So don't be tempted to join those damn

optimists who post smiley faces on every remaining square inch of property.

Be a mysanthrop. It's fun.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:06:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: foucault

In a message dated 97-05-21 17:02:41 EDT, you write:

> my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

oh oh. like the Magritte painting, no?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:34:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

>Subject: Secret Mullings About Bill

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>i saw reference yesterday to something like this being a work in

>progress of Kerouac's at some point.

>

>given that i'm a burroughs' junkie (and seem to becoming a Kerouacian as

>well) i'd love to read Jack's insights into William.

>

>was this ever published in any form? are there photocopies in some

>vault?

>

>david rhaesa

Dear Dave: May 21, 1997

SECRET MULLINGS ABOUT BILL was a novel Kerouac began and never finished

(that I know of). Yes, it would still be part of the "archive," unless A)

Mr. Sampas has already sold it to a collector or B) he has sold or donated

it to the New York Public Library. Perhaps our friend Mr. Chaput with his

"8 page list" can help us on this point.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:46:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

At 06:51 PM 5/21/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>Dear Phil, May 20, 1997

>>

>> You and Anstee should both go far--and the sooner you start, the

>better.

>>

>> HAHAHAHAHA!

>> Gerry

>>

>>

>

> Gerry, caro paesano,

> ben detto!

> Gli amici girano

> per kilometri

> secondo dopo secondo

> alla fine del mondo.

> Un saluto dall'Italia!

>

> rinaldo *what's happen to rinaldo?*

>

Caro Rinaldo, 21 maggio 1997

Lei e molto gentile, e io ti ringrazio con tutto il mio cuore!

Spero ti vedere in California.

Ciao, Geraldo

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:00:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: foucault

Ginny Browne wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-21 17:02:41 EDT, you write:

>

> > my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

>

> oh oh. like the Magritte painting, no?

like? the whole book is about like. the cover is the painting ... but

it discusses the levels of representation away from the thing from

pictorial representation to word representation and yada yada blah blah

like? a perfect word.

the book ends

"A day will come when, by means of similitude relayed indefinitely along

the length of a series, the image itself, along with the name it bears,

will lose its identity. Campbell, Campbell, Campbell, Campbell."

this is his twist to Warhol's approach evidently.

david rhaesa

salina kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:01:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

Comments: To: davo@cjnetworks.com

David:

Good to see you on the list. Charley will be passing through Lawrence in a

few days.

Pam

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:04:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> >Subject: Secret Mullings About Bill

> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >

> >i saw reference yesterday to something like this being a work in

> >progress of Kerouac's at some point.

> >

> >given that i'm a burroughs' junkie (and seem to becoming a Kerouacian as

> >well) i'd love to read Jack's insights into William.

> >

> >was this ever published in any form? are there photocopies in some

> >vault?

> >

> >david rhaesa

>

> Dear Dave: May 21, 1997

>

> SECRET MULLINGS ABOUT BILL was a novel Kerouac began and never finished

> (that I know of). Yes, it would still be part of the "archive," unless A)

> Mr. Sampas has already sold it to a collector or B) he has sold or donated

> it to the New York Public Library. Perhaps our friend Mr. Chaput with his

> "8 page list" can help us on this point.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:06:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> David:

> Good to see you on the list. Charley will be passing through Lawrence in a

> few days.

> Pam

will he be here in Salina for the Robert Peters reading on Sunday

morning?

i need about 3 weeks warning for apartment cleaning :)

david

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:14:41 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: foucault

In-Reply-To: <970521170636_2086251513@emout01.mail.aol.com>

>In a message dated 97-05-21 17:02:41 EDT, you write:

>

>> my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

>

>oh oh. like the Magritte painting, no?

Very good! Hats off to you.

John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:14:08 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: strange quote from On The Road by Jack Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afa8a7fff61f@[206.25.67.109]>

---

"On The Road" parte one II page #61 (circa)

"He arranged to get me the same kind of job he had, as a guard

in the barracks. I went through the necessary routine, and to

my surprise the bastars hired me. I was sworn in the local

police chief, given a badge, a club, and now I was a special

policeman".

---

tonite my mind is back in 69 when i read this keroauc quote &

was surprised that a "rebel" as jack can get a job as policeman

there was in november 69 reading OTR in a train in early morn

when daylight were neon tube & venetian hinterland fog was around

thru the house & raindrops on the window kerouac was only just

dead & recognized as a symbol of the coutercultural mob there

was no place in the patter of an alternative hero he may be a

policeman 30 years later still this passage was recalled by a

strange spark in my dream/mind old times

yrs rinaldo * the beatspotting *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:02:15 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: karmic check-up from JK hisself/pome of day

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afa8a7fff61f@[206.25.67.109]>

u are a'ngel marie,

...

>6

>strictly speaking, there is no me, because all is

>emptiness. i am empty, i am non-existent

>

...

in a word

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:27:19 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: foucault

In-Reply-To: <l03020902afa9320b2a40@[141.224.144.84]>

At 17.14 21/05/97 -0600, you John wrote:

>>In a message dated 97-05-21 17:02:41 EDT, you write:

>>

>>> my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

>>

>>oh oh. like the Magritte painting, no?

>

>Very good! Hats off to you.

>

>John M.

>

>

john, as french philosopher, focault, (not that in XIX siecle

in the Eco novel...) he is a good guy in the habitus of the

77 leftism as to free so called man mad hospitalized in sad

bulding ( in italy a great reformist was franco basaglia &

he was connected with foucalt thoghts, sad both are actually

dead & the reform of the asylum are to go back), sad others

french philosopher has a tragic life, e.g. louis althusser

who was jaled after he strangled his wife without any reason,

the only was the madness that kept his mind, strange indeed

bunch of men who believed in such a word called utopia,

yrs rinaldo * a beatspotting *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:29:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: A Found Poem

In-Reply-To: <199705212146.OAA17776@norway.it.earthlink.net>

At 14.46 21/05/97 -0700, you Geraldo wrote:

>At 06:51 PM 5/21/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>>Dear Phil, May 20, 1997

>>>

>>> You and Anstee should both go far--and the sooner you start, the

>>better.

>>>

>>> HAHAHAHAHA!

>>> Gerry

>>>

>>>

>>

>> Gerry, caro paesano,

>> ben detto!

>> Gli amici girano

>> per kilometri

>> secondo dopo secondo

>> alla fine del mondo.

>> Un saluto dall'Italia!

>>

>> rinaldo *what's happen to rinaldo?*

>>

>

>Caro Rinaldo, 21 maggio 1997

>

> Lei e molto gentile, e io ti ringrazio con tutto il mio cuore!

> Spero ti vedere in California.

> Ciao, Geraldo

>

>

Caro Geraldo,

poi cucineremo in california una buonissima

pasta a fagioli come dio comanda!

All'italiana!

cari saluti da

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:31:12 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: foucault

In-Reply-To: <970521170636_2086251513@emout01.mail.aol.com>

At 17.06 21/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-21 17:02:41 EDT, you write:

>

>> my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

>

>oh oh. like the Magritte painting, no?

>

>

strane cose sono accadute ai filosofi francesi che

guidarono la controcultura negli anni 70...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:33:27 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: "a baneful influence"

In-Reply-To: <970521163819_122146097@emout06.mail.aol.com>

At 16.38 21/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Oh, come on. Mean people suck...Where's your sadistic, cynical nature?

>People suck is a better statement. So don't be tempted to join those damn

>optimists who post smiley faces on every remaining square inch of property.

> Be a mysanthrop. It's fun.

>

>

got a black hole from Hawkings & enjoi...

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:39:07 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

In-Reply-To: <970521180010_2052707062@emout17.mail.aol.com>

At 18.01 21/05/97 -0400, you wrote:

>David:

>Good to see you on the list. Charley will be passing through Lawrence in a

>few days.

>Pam

>

>

are u listening doctor freud?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:25:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: strange quote from On The Road by Jack Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970522001408.00686fa4@pop.gpnet.it>

Beautifully written! Thanks for the neon tube & venetian hinterland fog

trip back to 69, the beginning of whatever they will come to call the

postmodern world. Jack never did fit well in a box. Not even his coffin.

He's always popping out of IT, his last will and testament. // John M.

>---

>"On The Road" parte one II page #61 (circa)

>

>"He arranged to get me the same kind of job he had, as a guard

>in the barracks. I went through the necessary routine, and to

>my surprise the bastars hired me. I was sworn in the local

>police chief, given a badge, a club, and now I was a special

>policeman".

>

>---

>tonite my mind is back in 69 when i read this keroauc quote &

>was surprised that a "rebel" as jack can get a job as policeman

>there was in november 69 reading OTR in a train in early morn

>when daylight were neon tube & venetian hinterland fog was around

>thru the house & raindrops on the window kerouac was only just

>dead & recognized as a symbol of the coutercultural mob there

>was no place in the patter of an alternative hero he may be a

>policeman 30 years later still this passage was recalled by a

>strange spark in my dream/mind old times

>

>yrs rinaldo * the beatspotting *

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:26:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Robert Peters

David:

I think he will get in touch with Robert when he gets to Wichita. I don't

know if he plans to get to Salina. I'll let you know in the next day or two.

Pam

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:27:45 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: justice barber around

well :

done falling through painted backdrops

(in the lost-found places where the wind hops)

in lost dog running ; lost state ballroom

occasion. gone april some...

; the lost places find

what could be teardrops in the wind's fling

and here is everything...

scared in a gemstone stance

swear to god :

stone set in concrete

stone romance...

let's not.

but sometimes @ grape playground w/

dog thumb

the goodness is with

identification...

haply running out by

a hundred points of reference

which can only be hollywood teen pictures

to sell.

but I maybe dog rose

could have

best not > not dead.

but pain as well

& cathy said :

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:07:01 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Foucault

Hello, David and Patricia!

Michel Foucault was a french philosopher/historian who has also had a HUGE

impact on literary criticism as well. In the latter, he would be classified as

a Marxist-materialist critic. His most famous essay in criticism is entitled

"What Is an Author?", in which he explores issues of hegemonic power in author-

reader relationships. Author=authority=controller-of-language=controller (to a

degree) of thought. His book _Madness & Civilization_ is also an excellent

piece of work... in it he asserts his theory that governments historically have

used "insanity" as a means of controlling and intimidating the subjects of the

government. Interesting stuff. I'm one of those who think he's fun to read...

but it's academic type fun, not necessarily light reading. Sure, he was

homosexual; sure, he did a lot of drugs. But who cares? It's his contribution

to the intellectual world that remains, and will be his legacy (IMHO). Hope

this helps...

---Wes

>>

>> Who is foucault, is he fun to read.

>> p

>

>he's french. was french. had a bowl of pot near him to help in his

>writing. some think he is hard to read. some think he easy to read.

>they are both liars. he is very different to read. his history of

>sexuality is interesting in digging through the history of sexual

>discourse. madness and civilization was nice for me given that it was a

>similar treatment concerning notions of insanity and the like.

>

>my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

>

>david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:21:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Foucault

Wes Lundburg wrote:

>

> Hello, David and Patricia!

>

> Michel Foucault was a french philosopher/historian who has also had a HUGE

> impact on literary criticism as well. In the latter, he would be classified

as

> a Marxist-materialist critic. His most famous essay in criticism is entitled

> "What Is an Author?", in which he explores issues of hegemonic power in

author-

> reader relationships. Author=authority=controller-of-language=controller (to

a

> degree) of thought. His book _Madness & Civilization_ is also an excellent

> piece of work... in it he asserts his theory that governments historically

have

> used "insanity" as a means of controlling and intimidating the subjects of the

> government. Interesting stuff. I'm one of those who think he's fun to

read...

> but it's academic type fun, not necessarily light reading. Sure, he was

> homosexual; sure, he did a lot of drugs. But who cares? It's his

contribution

> to the intellectual world that remains, and will be his legacy (IMHO). Hope

> this helps...

>

> ---Wes

>

> >>

> >> Who is foucault, is he fun to read.

> >> p

> >

> >he's french. was french. had a bowl of pot near him to help in his

> >writing. some think he is hard to read. some think he easy to read.

> >they are both liars. he is very different to read. his history of

> >sexuality is interesting in digging through the history of sexual

> >discourse. madness and civilization was nice for me given that it was a

> >similar treatment concerning notions of insanity and the like.

> >

> >my favorite is a small book titled "This is Not a Pipe."

> >

> >david rhaesa

currently i have his "subject and power" essay by the toilet. what's

the "author" one in .......

and how would he define "Beat"?

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:37:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

RACE --- wrote:

>

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> > David:

> > Good to see you on the list. Charley will be passing through Lawrence in a

> > few days.

> > Pam

>

> will he be here in Salina for the Robert Peters reading on Sunday

> morning?

> i need about 3 weeks warning for apartment cleaning :)

>

> david

warning, warning, i will come and look at you on sunday, warning warning

p

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:44:49 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: MEMORY BABE

Antoine Maloney in Montreal writes to ask if MEMORY BABE, my

biography of Kerouac, is out of print.

No, it is very much in print with University of California Press.

You can order it directly from University of California Press at

1-800-822-6657. It's now $20 plus shipping and, depending on where you

live, sales tax too.

Or, if you want a signed copy, you can order it from me, $30

postpaid (cash, check, or money order). (Allow time for checks to clear.)

Thanks for your interest, Antoine.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:48:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

tongue

At 03:28 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>So does anyone have suggestions or best methods for cleaning off my

>computer screen now?

>

>david rhaesa

>

>

>

>Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>>

>> At 02:48 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> >Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>> >>

>> >> At 09:29 AM 5/21/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >> >Nice people swallow? I don't get it...

>> >> >

>> >> >Paul

>> >> >????

>> >>

>> >> erm.

>> >> Its a "joke" that has been running around for along time. Due to the

>> >> popularity of the "mean people suck" campaign, there has been variations

>> >> such as "nice people swallow".

>> >> It means, *being sexually explict* swallowing semen when you give head.'

>> >> Get it now? ;)

>> >>

>> >> ttfn.

>> >> Lisa

>> >> --

>> >>

>> >> Lisa M. Rabey

>> >> Internet and Computer Consultant

>> >> San Francisco, California

>> >> http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

>> >> **************************************

>> >> General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

>> >

>> >perhaps a demonstration would help everyone understand ....

>> >

>>

>> Sure! No problem ;)

>>

>> HOW TO SUCK COCK - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

>> WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS.

>>

>> By: Anonymous

>>

>> LESSON ONE

>>

>> I am not sure if it was because I grew up in a household with

>> brothers or whether I would have had the same feelings and

>> inclinations had I been an only child but I do know that from the

>> time of my earliest memories I have been fascinated with penises.

>> Let's talk about the "basic penis." I regard oral sex as the

>> highest form of expression of love that can be exchanged between

>> two people. Hopefully this information will help you to break down

>> any barriers which you might have that would prevent you from

>> expressing your love in this way and from receiving a

>> reciprocation from your male companion.

>> First things first. LOOK at the cock. I do not mean a

>> cursory glance not a hurried, surreptitious examination. Take

>> enough time that you convince your companion that some kind of

>> treat is in store for him provided he will allow you to do with

>> him, and particularly with his cock, exactly what you want.

>> Place him flat on his back on your bed, in a well lighted

>> room. Take his cock in your hand and LOOK at it. He probably will

>> not have the will power to stay soft, but then again you are

>> worshipping his very essence. Few men can stay soft under these

>> circumstances, when it is apparent that the person LOOKING at his

>> cock is worshipping.

>> When you first start to touch him, his cock will become hard

>> and be in a state where your examination will be meaningful.

>> Wouldn't it be nice if going to the doctor for an examination was

>> as enriching?

>> The cock must be hard if you are to be able to note the

>> important parts-those parts sensitive to stimulation by your lips

>> and tongue.

>> The first thing you will note is whether or not he is

>> circumcised. Circumcision is not universally practiced: there are

>> advantages and disadvantages to penises in both conditions from

>> the standpoint of providing oral caresses that bring the highest

>> kind of delight to your man.

>> Next take a close look at the shaft of the penis itself.

>> There is a bulbous part of the organ near the outer end, slightly

>> larger in diameter than the shaft, which is often called the head.

>> Technically this is the glans penis (comes from the Latin glans

>> which means acorn. Look at it closely; does kind of look like an

>> acorn doesn't it?)

>> The outside perimeter of the glans penis is the corona. This

>> joins the head to the shaft. This is the most sensitive spot on

>> the penis. It is toward this ridge that you will direct most of

>> your attention when you are giving head. Follow this ridge around

>> to the underside of the penis. You know that I like to call it the

>> underbelly. I am particularly fond of the underbelly!

>> You will notice a point of juncture where the two ends of

>> this irregular circle come together. If your partner is not

>> circumcised, this will also be the point where the foreskin is

>> attached. This tiny area is easily the most sensitive spot on his

>> entire body, and it is possible to bring your partner to climax

>> simply by gently tapping the tip of your tongue directly on it.

>> Spend time caressing the glans and those areas immediately

>> surrounding it.

>> Beneath the glans is the shaft of the penis. The shaft does

>> not have many nerve endings and does not, therefore, provide a man

>> with any high degree of stimulation when caressed either manually

>> or with your tongue to the exclusion of the glans penis itself.

>> It always amazes me to note the number of confirmed cocksuckers

>> who believe that sucking up and down on the shaft will get the guy

>> off. That's not it folks! If it works it is because the back of

>> your throat is playing tricks on his glans penis. Your throat is

>> giving head to his head!

>> Beneath the shaft are the testicles (balls, jewels, call

>> them what you like, but let's not ignore their significance). The

>> testicles are extremely sensitive to pain and are not usually

>> considered subject to erotic stimulation to any particular degree.

>> Not true! You can add a high degree of pleasure for him by paying

>> the right kind of attention to the balls!

>> Now lets go back to the shaft of the matter. The opening in

>> the tip of the glans penis is the meatus. Here is where the cum

>> spurts. (I could have said semen is ejaculated but I did not want

>> to sound too professional).

>> There are other parts of a man's body which respond with

>> alacrity to oral stimulation.

>> Many men are particularly sensitive around the nipples. The

>> first time I kissed my partner's nipples he shot before I had the

>> chance to even get near his cock. While I have not been able to

>> duplicate this in the laboratory setting (he hates to go near the

>> lab with me) my partner still gets extremely turned on by my

>> lingual nipple caresses.

>> So LOOK at your partner's penis. Study it. Learn its areas

>> of special sensitivity completely and be ready to apply your

>> knowledge to his body with your tongue and with your lips when you

>> bend your loving head over his cock. There is nothing that you can

>> do which more clearly shows your love for him than the worship you

>> can provide his cock!

>>

>> LESSON TWO

>>

>> The sad fact is that most people, men and women, do not have

>> the slightest idea of how to suck cock. Most seem to think that

>> simply by making a cunt of their mouth, closing it around a man's

>> penis, and bobbing their heads lustily up and down until he

>> climaxes automatically makes them expert cocksuckers. Au

>> contraire!

>> Consummate skill is required to suck a man's cock and

>> provide him with the highest degree of pleasure possible. When I

>> first started my quest I really had no one to turn to for advice

>> and counsel. It was all hunt and suck. Hunt and suck. Find that

>> one technique that could and would set him on fire! I had to

>> learn from my experiences and while I would not want to deny you

>> the innate pleasure that these experiences will bring I would hate

>> to see you lose a great companion because of your inexperience and

>> lack of expertise.

>> Let's assume that you have taken that opportunity to LOOK at

>> his penis. To explore each area of the penis to find the most

>> sensitive parts. That you have gotten beyond "Parts is parts" and

>> recognize that some parts are more equal than others.

>> In order for you to observe your man's reactions and get the

>> most information possible about his responses try the following:

>> While his erect penis points toward the ceiling, cup his

>> balls in one hand and gently, using only your tongue, lick softly,

>> but carefully along the entire underside of his erect organ. As

>> you suck along the underbelly you will learn those areas that give

>> him the greatest pleasure when your tongue is touching them.

>> Unless he is made of stone, your partner will provide you with

>> vivid clues as to which areas are most pleasurable.

>> As you discover these areas of enhanced pleasure concentrate

>> on them. For most men the most sensitive area will be the point

>> where the ring (or corona) of the head and the foreskin are

>> attached. Or were attached prior to his circumcision. By

>> continued licking and tapping along this area with your tongue you

>> are going to bring forth a geyser. If you are not skilled and you

>> want to please him in a hurry I suggest that you get him off in

>> this manner in order to become familiar at first hand with the

>> nature and delight of his climax.

>> As he is getting ready for climax you will note changes in

>> his penis. These signs will be the same every time he climaxes so

>> that you can prepare for his cum properly. The head of the cock

>> may swell somewhat larger then it is during the normal course of

>> his erection. He may thrust his hips forward as he wants to send

>> his

>> body hurtling out his cock with his cum. And for most men,

>> immediately prior to the cum, there will appear at the tiny,

>> lovely lips at the tip of the cock a clear drop or two of fluid.

>> When you see this or feel the opening at the meatus through his

>> condom you know that the moment of truth is at hand. Launch the

>> torpedoes, full cum ahead!

>> Where should you be when you are sucking his cock? Between

>> his legs, on top of him, in a sixty nine position? Where?

>> Because of the structure of his penis, as well as the structure of

>> your mouth, lips, tongue, and teeth, you can provide the highest

>> degree of sensation to yourself and your partner by kneeling

>> between his legs and approaching his cock from the bottom rather

>> than from the side or the top. Don't believe me? Try the various

>> positions (I describe in later chapters techniques to be used with

>> each position). See what works best for you and your partner.

>>

>> LESSON THREE

>>

>> Place his stiff cock inside your mouth but do not tighten

>> your lips around the shaft. With your head begin a circle motion.

>> The cock will slide to different places in your mouth as you

>> continue the circle motion. Watch your teeth on this one. A

>> kneeling position will suffice but it is also effective when your

>> partner is on his back and your head is directly over his cock.

>> The circle should be executed in both clockwise and

>> counterclockwise motions in a slow purposeful manner. I found many

>> guys in New York who seem to prefer this technique above all

>> others. I met one guy who could circle a cock for hours and I

>> found myself having multiple orgasms while his mouth circled my

>> cock. I didn't lose my hard-on after each cum. When the technique

>> is performed correctly it means many hours of unadulterated

>> pleasure.

>>

>> LESSON FOUR

>>

>> With your man sitting in an elevated position and you on

>> your knees in front of him lift his hard cock to reveal his balls.

>> With your tongue find the underside of his balls. Now, while

>> resting his balls on your wet tongue, lick in an upward motion to

>> the very tip of his cock. It is permissible to use your hands in

>> this technique. It is bettor to do this technique several times

>> in succession-like licking a lollipop or ice cream cone. I grew up

>> down south. And one thing about southern boys, we learn early how

>> to get if off quickly when the need is there. And the lollipop

>> lick is the one technique in this book which few men can tolerate

>> for long periods of time without cumming.

>>

>> LESSON FIVE

>>

>> Right now lets discuss a technique that is probably the

>> most common cocksucking technique in the world. Take his cock in

>> your mouth but not deeply. We will get to deep-throating later

>> on. It's great, not over-rated, but if you want to be an expert

>> at deep throat start with the right techniques and work your way

>> down, so to speak.

>> Take his cock in your mouth by sliding your moistened tongue

>> lovingly over the head until your lips close around the shaft at

>> the point just behind the corona. Don't just open your mouth and

>> close it around his cock. Slide it in. He will enjoy it much more.

>> Encase the shaft of his penis with your hand. Remember the

>> shaft is relatively insensitive to any kind of stimulation. By

>> enclosing his penis with your hand you give him the sensation of

>> having his penis encased.

>> Now you have several options. Try twisting your head from

>> side to side making sure your moist lips stay in contact with the

>> coronal ridge. While doing this gently move your hand up and down

>> the shaft. When he climaxes he may want to push your head further

>> down the shaft of his penis. He wants to envelop you with his

>> cock. As you are learning his climax you will miss the fine points

>> if you deep throat at this time. Instead gently suck around the

>> corona as he climaxes so that you can intensify his pleasure and

>> increase the force of his orgasm.

>> As you gain more experience you will be able to tell exactly

>> when his climax is approaching and you will be ready for that

>> initial spurt out the rubber.

>>

>> LESSON SIX

>>

>> There is one further refinement to this basic technique

>> which will heighten his orgasm. If you place your thumb at the

>> very base of the penis in such a way as to block the tube through

>> which the cum spurts, the semen cannot escape even though he is

>> spasming and going through the reflex action of ejaculating semen.

>> If at the same time you suck vigorously on the head of his

>> cock you can delay his cum for several long moments. When you

>> finally allow the cum to spurt it will last much longer and be

>> just as intense as a result. Even though you delay the cum for

>> only a few short moments you will be surprised by the intensity of

>> his cum.

>> These techniques are the basis of cocksucking. Do not go

>> beyond them until you have become an expert, not only in the

>> techniques themselves, but also in the reading and interpreting of

>> your partner's responses to such a point that you know exactly how

>> he is getting off on what you are doing. When you have reached

>> this point, you are ready for the more subtle, more advanced

>> techniques.

>> Don't be so slavish that you miss out on the fun of self

>> discovery. Find out what works for you and for your partner and

>> make your cocksucking as individual as your signature. After all,

>> you want your man to pick you out in the dark among hundred

>> slobbering cocksuckers.

>>

>> LESSON SEVEN

>>

>> One of the first things you encountered when you first

>> started to suck cock was a gag reflex. Most men seem to want to

>> force their cocks down your throat as far as they can get it.

>> Particularly at the moment when they cum!

>> Consider for a moment that the average length of your oral

>> cavity is three to three and a half inches while the average

>> Caucasian cock length is five to five and a half inches. The laws

>> of nature would seem to dictate that getting all that cock into

>> your mouth is an impossibility.

>> It can be done. You probably know someone who can do it and

>> that is why you purchased this book to begin with. It is possible

>> to master the necessary technique. I don't want to be boring, but

>> if you understand your anatomy you will begin to understand the

>> requirements that allow you to take his hard cock into your mouth

>> and down your throat. The biggest obstacle to taking all of his

>> cock down your throat is the fact that there is a bend of almost

>> ninety degrees behind your tongue leading down into your throat.

>> So the first thing to do is get the cock past that angle.

>>

>> Get past the angle of the dangle!

>>

>> In order to practice this, get in a position where you can

>> turn your head in such a way that your mouth and throat lie almost

>> in a straight line. The best position to accomplish this is to lie

>> on a bed so that your head is near the edge with your body

>> sprawled across the bed so that your head is tipped sharply back.

>> This position will put your mouth and throat nearly in a line and

>> will allow your partner to approach you in such a way that

>> insertion of his cock can be made so deeply that his pubic hair

>> presses against your lips.

>>

>> LESSON EIGHT

>>

>> Today we will practice mastering physical reaction that must

>> be alleviated before the art of deep penetration can fully be

>> enjoyed. The natural tendency of the body to gag when a foreign

>> object such as a deeply thrusting cock being forced down your

>> throat. You can overcome this tendency by completely relaxing

>> your throat at moment the insertion is made. It is equally

>> important that you maintain this relaxation during the entire deep

>> throating.

>> Let him put his cock down your throat and hold it still

>> while you find the most comfortable way to proceed. Because of

>> your position you will not be able to move or to offer him any

>> greater stimulation than simply keeping your mouth tightly closed

>> around his throbbing cock. If you are able try to stimulate his

>> underbelly with your tongue, do it!

>> You will only be able to relax and take his cock in this way

>> if you completely thrust your partner. Your partner is in full

>> control. He must initiate and maintain all the motion. This is

>> the only exercise in which you relinquish your control of the

>> situation to your partner. He will relish this for the simple fact

>> that for the first time he can insert his cock as deeply down your

>> throat as he wants to. Now your partner begins an in and out

>> movement that is just like fucking. He should start slowly,

>> especially if this is a completely

>> new experience for the two of you. After all if he hurts you he

>> cuts himself off from one of the great pleasures in life. His

>> only other requirement during this exercise is to keep the motion

>> in the same direction throughout this oral exercise as there is

>> simply no leeway for him to vary the motion from side to side.

>>

>> One other word of caution.

>>

>> Don't let your partner get carried away at the moment he

>> starts to cum. At that spectacular moment he will be able for the

>> first time to thrust his cock all the way inside your oral cavity

>> and that is the most important lesson of this exercise! His only

>> other requirement during the exercise is to keep the motion in the

>> same against your lips as he cums. Because of your position in

>> bed you will not be faced with the problem of swallowing his cum.

>> And this is not just because he has a condom on his dick. The

>> reason is because he has gotten his cock BEYOND your gag reflex!

>> Without the rubber his cum would shoot directly into your stomach!

>> If both you and your partner understand what it is that you are

>> trying to do as well as the possible problems that may "cum" up

>> along the way no harm or discomfort will happen to either of you.

>> It is possible that not everyone will learn the "deep

>> throat" technique but this inability does not make you any less a

>> cocksucker. You must allow your throat to relax completely while

>> your partner is thrusting his cock this deeply down your throat.

>> To do this long enough for your partner to completely get it off

>> is very difficult and may require practice beyond this day. It

>> may be that you will be able to take your partner completely down

>> your throat, but you will not be able to maintain proper

>> relaxation of your throat to until he shoots his load. Hopefully

>> your partner will understand that this is not a rejection of him

>> or of what he is offering you, and it is my sincere desire that

>> you not stop here and think that you will never master the "deep

>> throat" technique.

>> Continue to practice this lesson. I know couples who have

>> devoted ten months to this lesson alone. Continue to practice

>> this technique because your practice will allow you to take his

>> cock deeper into your throat each time and for longer periods of

>> time. Ultimately you will succeed. If you have the desire you

>> will get this one down pat!

>>

>> LESSON NINE

>>

>> Now lets turn to another portion of your partner's anatomy

>> which should not be ignored-the family jewels. Here are two

>> objects which can enhance your partner's feelings more than any

>> other. Many people do not think of the balls as primary sexual

>> objects. Many men are extremely sensitive and just as in lesson

>> eight there must be a certain amount of trust built up between the

>> two of you before he will willingly let you have undisputed use of

>> these two pearls of delight!

>> For today's lesson begin by gently licking his balls with

>> your tongue. As your partner becomes more trusting you may begin

>> to play with his nipples with your fingers gradually increasing or

>> decreasing the intensity as you gauge how he is responding. You

>> may want to gently caress his cock with your hand while you are

>> bathing his balls with your tongue.

>> Remember that the balls are extremely sensitive to pain and

>> he will lose his trust in you if you do not respect any limits he

>> places on them just as you have the right to place limits on the

>> back of your throat until you are completely ready to receive him.

>> It is possible once you have built up this trust to take

>> both his balls in your mouth. He will be more receptive to this if

>> you thoroughly wet them with your tongue prior to taking them into

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:56:41 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Foucault

david wrote:

>

>currently i have his "subject and power" essay by the toilet. what's

>the "author" one in .......

>

>and how would he define "Beat"?

>

Hey, david!

My copy of "What Is an Author?" is in _The Foucault Reader_, ed. Paul Rabinow,

New York: Pantheon, 1984. I think this book is still in print, and should be in

any college library. I don't think this essay was published in any previous

collection, but I'm probably wrong.

How would he define "beat"? Heh, heh, heh. I'll tell you this: he WAS beat!

Spent the last half of his life pushing things over the edge to try to

experience everything he could. His doing this in the "leather" underworld of

San Francisco resulted in his contracting AIDS... which is what eventually

killed him (1984). I certainly don't recommend his way of living Beat...

Anyway, his work is, IMO, in the spirit of Beat-ness...

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:48:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat Books Garage Sale III

Time to make some room on the shelves!

Sometime in the next few days I will be e-mailing a list of Beat, Beat

related and a few non-beat books I have lying around. It will include about

30 titles by virtually all of the major beat writers - nothing over $20, most

in the $5 to $10 range. Virtually all of the books offered will be "reader"

copies, no limited editions, decent but less than perfectly pristine

condition and definately nothing from the Kerouac Estate!

To receive an e-mail copy of the items for sale, please e-mail me PRIVATELY

(Hpark4@aol.com), not to the full BEAL-L list. Also, the list will not be

posted on the BEAT-L list.

If you wish to recieve an e-mail with the books for sale, please reply

PRIVATELY soon. The chances are that I will send the list by Sunday or

Monday. If you responded to the "sale" several months ago, I have saved your

e-mail address, but if you want to be sure to recieve my list it is a good

idea to respond again. I anticipate that most of the books will sell

quickly.

Thanks and sorry for this semi-commercial intrusion.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:07:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: karmic check-up from JK hisself/pome of day

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> from : The Scripture of the Golden eternity

>

> 1

> did i create that sky? yes, for, if it was

> anything other than a concepton in my mind

> i wouldnt have said 'sky' --that is why i am the

> golden eternity. there are not two of us here,

> reader and writer, but one, one golden eternity,

> one-which-it-is,-that-which-everything-is

>

reminds me of ontological difference, the difference between being and

that which is

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:37:29 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: karmic check-up from JK hisself/pome of day

Marie Countryman wrote:

Thanks, Marie, for posting that quote...coincidentally last night I was

reading the same book, and I thought I'd put up the last few

choruses-which I think are the best in the book-for anyone unfamiliar.

The last chorus provides the punchline to the whole thing!

64

I was smelling flowers in the yard, and when

I stood up I took a deep breath and the blood all

rushed to my brain and I woke up dead on my

back in the grass. I had apparently fainted,

or died, for about sixty seconds. My neighbor

saw me but he thought I had just suddenly

thrown myself on the grass to enjoy the sun.

During that timeless moment of unconsciousness

I saw the golden eternity. I saw heaven. In it

nothing had ever happened, the events of a

million years ago were just as phantom and

ungraspable as the events of now or of a million

years from now, or the events of the next ten

minutes. It was perfect, the golden solitude, the

golden emptiness, Something-Or-Other, something

surely humble. There was a rapturous ring of

silence abiding perfectly. There was no question

of being alive or not being alive, of likes and

dislikes, of near or far, no question of giving

or gratitude, no question of mercy or judgment,

or of suffering or its opposite or anything.

It was the womb itself, aloneness, alaya vijnana

the universal store, the Great Free Treasure, the

Great Victory, infinite completion, the joyful

mysterious essence of Arrangement. It seemed

like one smiling smile, one adorable adoration,

one gracious and adorable charity, everlasting

safety, refreshing afternoon, roses, infinite

brilliant immaterial gold ash, the Golden Age.

The "golden" came from the sun in my eyelids,

and the "eternity" from my sudden instant

realization as I woke up that I had just

been where it all came from and where it

was all returning, the everlasting So, and

so never coming or going; therefore I call it

the golden eternity but you can call it anything

you want. As I regained consciousness I felt so sorry

I had a body and a mind suddenly realizing I

didn't even have a body and a mind and nothing

had ever happened and everything is alright

forever and forever and forever, O thank you

thank you thank you.

65

This is the first teaching from

the golden eternity.

66

The second teaching from the golden eternity

is that there never was a first teaching

from the golden eternity. So be sure.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 02:32:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Chapoo is Magoo

Phil,

I'm the one who posted the original "Chaput is Kaput" note and everyone else

simply replied to it as you well know. Whether Gerry ought to know better as

to the correct pronunciation isn't an issue at all. And "Kaput" did seem to

sum up your situation. ;-)

Thanks for giving me another opportunity to clear things up, because after

reading your recent posts it makes me realize you really aren't simply Kaput,

you're Mister Magoo! Phil, you're a cartoon character with these insane

arguments you make!

You claim Gerry broke the law by making photocopies of Jack's letters. You

might want to do -your- homework, Phil. It's legal to make a copy for your

personal use. And you accuse Gerry of not checking his facts!

Phil, how about if you answer some questions for a change? You fire assinine

questions out by the dozens but don't answer any questions at all. Of course

you're in good company... Anstee and Weinberg aren't any good at answering

questions either - only making accusations.

Phil, why don't you tell us how much funding LCK! gets from John Sampas?

This is a very valid question that goes directly to motivation and I am sure

you will either dodge it or simply not answer at all. I think it is

important for people to know how much support your organization gets from the

Sampas family. I know you'll come back (if you come back at all) saying that

is priveleged information etc, just like some of your friends who can do

nothing more than make accusations, but there is no reason in the world why

you can't at least tell us a percentage. Is it 10%? 50%? 100%? Prove me

wrong, Phil. Show us you can speak with candor instead of always trying to

muddy up the works.

Phil, you've said on more than one occassion you can't believe Stella Sampas

would have forged the will. I don't recall Nicosia ever saying it was Stella

who did it. But be that as it may what makes you think you can judge what

another person is capable of doing? Do you think the Unabombers mother

could have believed her son was capable of what he did? Or Timothy

McVeigh's? Or Son of Sam's? Now before you go popping off I'm comparing

anyone to mass murderers calm down and understand -this is an analogy,

Phil-. I'm not saying anyone is a murderer! My making an analogy does not

mean you get to change the subject by saying I'm saying Stella or anyone else

is a murderer. Understand? I'm simply saying you can't be inside anyone

else's head so how can you know what anyone else is really capable of doing?

C'mon, Phil... answer the questions:

1). How much funding does LCK! get from the Sampas family?

2). What other -evidence- do you have Nicosia is wrong about anything?

The issue is the archives. Let's stay focussed on that!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:46:35 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: karmic check-up from JK hisself/pome of day

Hello,

If you all have this post already, don't mind me...I was told it didn't

go through.

Adrien

So lemme try again...

Marie Countryman wrote:

Thanks, Marie, for posting that quote...coincidentally last night I was

reading the same book, and I thought I'd put up the last few

choruses-which I think are the best in the book-for anyone unfamiliar.

The last chorus provides the punchline to the whole thing!

64

I was smelling flowers in the yard, and when

I stood up I took a deep breath and the blood all

rushed to my brain and I woke up dead on my

back in the grass. I had apparently fainted,

or died, for about sixty seconds. My neighbor

saw me but he thought I had just suddenly

thrown myself on the grass to enjoy the sun.

During that timeless moment of unconsciousness

I saw the golden eternity. I saw heaven. In it

nothing had ever happened, the events of a

million years ago were just as phantom and

ungraspable as the events of now or of a million

years from now, or the events of the next ten

minutes. It was perfect, the golden solitude, the

golden emptiness, Something-Or-Other, something

surely humble. There was a rapturous ring of

silence abiding perfectly. There was no question

of being alive or not being alive, of likes and

dislikes, of near or far, no question of giving

or gratitude, no question of mercy or judgment,

or of suffering or its opposite or anything.

It was the womb itself, aloneness, alaya vijnana

the universal store, the Great Free Treasure, the

Great Victory, infinite completion, the joyful

mysterious essence of Arrangement. It seemed

like one smiling smile, one adorable adoration,

one gracious and adorable charity, everlasting

safety, refreshing afternoon, roses, infinite

brilliant immaterial gold ash, the Golden Age.

The "golden" came from the sun in my eyelids,

and the "eternity" from my sudden instant

realization as I woke up that I had just

been where it all came from and where it

was all returning, the everlasting So, and

so never coming or going; therefore I call it

the golden eternity but you can call it anything

you want. As I regained consciousness I felt so sorry

I had a body and a mind suddenly realizing I

didn't even have a body and a mind and nothing

had ever happened and everything is alright

forever and forever and forever, O thank you

thank you thank you.

65

This is the first teaching from

the golden eternity.

66

The second teaching from the golden eternity

is that there never was a first teaching

from the golden eternity. So be sure.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:36:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Last Gasp

Thanks to a BEAT-L post a few weeks back, I snail mailed Last Gasp for a

catalog. I received my fantastic Spring 1997 Last Gasp catalog yesterday.

In it, they list their web site, www.lastgasp.com

Here they have a large online catalog with S. Clay Wilson, R Crumb, 13

ZAP Comix reprints for $2.95 each, Tim Leary comics, a huge selection of

books and comics, etc etc etc. complete with a running slide show

highlighting their wares. I want to share this fantastic web site with

BEAT-L readers!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:59:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: pome/thought for the day

In-Reply-To: <33833A5E.65BD@sunflower.com>

THREE LAMENTS - Diane DiPrima

I

Alas

I believe

I might have become

a great writer

but

the chairs

in the library

were too hard

II

I have

the upper hand

but if I keep it

I'll lose the circulation

in one arm

III

So here i am the coolest in New York

what dont swing i dont push.

In some Elysian field

by a big tree

I chew my pride

like cud.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:58:37 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Fare ye well, crash the CLASH.

In-Reply-To: <l03020902afa9320b2a40@[141.224.144.84]>

15 years later

fare ye well

clash, awright!

i quote:

Hungry darkness of living

Who will thirst in the pit?

She spent a lifetime deciding

How to run from it

GHETTO DEFENDANT

COMBAT ROCK,

THE CLASH, 1982

yrs Rinaldo *a beatspotting & a not competent beat & a beet*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:50:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: pop quiz

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970522135837.00686890@pop.gpnet.it>

what is the sound of one ego clapping?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:53:05 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: pop quiz

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

a Freudian fart

dbr

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:47:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

In a message dated 97-05-22 03:12:07 EDT Jerry C. wrote:

>

> Anstee and Weinberg aren't any good at answering

>questions either - only making accusations.

>

Jerry, ol' bean, did you ask me a question? Sorry, if I missed it -- ask

away!

As for "accusations" -- I've expressed my opinions, forcefully at times

(certainly, it's an important subject), and even humourously at times (I

hope!).

Sadly, my opinions have no force in law. Nor do any of our discussions about

this issue on the Beat-List, no matter how heated and earnest, which is why I

believe we'll never see a bona fide Sampas representative here, as Gerry so

devoutly wishes. Any competent second-year law student would advise his

client thus. The difference is that, unlike Gerry's lawyer, the Sampas lawyer

apparently doesn't have a fool for a client!

CHEERS, Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:05:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: pop quiz question 2

In-Reply-To: <338441B1.2B9B@midusa.net>

>Marie Countryman wrote:

>>

>> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

>

>a Freudian fart

>

>db

ok: now, if a freudian farts in the wildnerness, does anyone care?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:28:28 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: paul caspers <caspers@WORLDONLINE.NL>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

At 07:49 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> Premise #1 Swallowing is a basic biological process.

>> Premise #2 Nice People swallow

>> Therefore Niceness is a basic biological process for people.

>>

>> the same thinking applies somewhat to other notions such as "inhaling"!!

>

>David,

>I like this logic. "Nice people do" works for me. They certainly

>inhale. This suggests logical problems for mc's "mean people suck"

>since sucking is also basic biological behavior and therefore nice?

premise #1 People need to swallow in order to feed themselves

premise #2 Sucking is merely non-essential (biological) behavior

premise #4 Nice people swallow

premise #5 Mean people suck

therefore Niceness is necessary

and Meanness is not

-Paul C.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:27:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

At 05:44 PM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

> Antoine Maloney in Montreal writes to ask if MEMORY BABE, my

>biography of Kerouac, is out of print.

> No, it is very much in print with University of California Press.

> You can order it directly from University of California Press at

>1-800-822-6657. It's now $20 plus shipping and, depending on where you

>live, sales tax too.

> Or, if you want a signed copy, you can order it from me, $30

>postpaid (cash, check, or money order). (Allow time for checks to clear.)

> Thanks for your interest, Antoine.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

>

>At 10:48 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Phil, May 21, 1997

>

> To answer one of your reasonable questions--concerning the 2,000

>xeroxed Kerouac letters in the MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell.

>(Letters that are now under seal because of John Sampas's threat to take

>legal action against the library if they show them without his permission.)

> The reason they were xeroxes is because by far the majority of those

>people I interviewed would not let me carry off their original Kerouac

>letters. But they let me xerox them for my own use.

Let me get this straight they let you use them for your own use right?

"But they let me xerox them for my own use."GN

Did you tell them your own use was to sell them for cash and make $7500 with

U-LOWELL Answer??????????

>P.S. You also better go back to law school, or perhaps you were cutting

>classes the day they went over property rights. If I pay for a xerox copy,

>that piece of paper belongs to me, and I can give it away or sell it or

burn it--whatever I please. GN

So let me get this straight if we on the beat-l list pay for a xerox copy of

your book "Memory Babe"or any other book, then because we paid for the copy

we can give it away or sell it. No wonder John Lash thinks you shouldn't be

the literary executor of Jan's estate.

I propose I will start copying Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe" tonight. I have

a very fast laser printer with a scanner and I'll be able to sell a copy for

about $4.00. It's legal Gerry says it is. Hey this could get pretty

lucrative. Now if I sent the book that I copied what would you charge for to

sign a bunch. Could I get like 100 signed for say 50 cents apiece. Then it's

not bad $4.50 for your book signed. But it's OK because the scholar says

it's legal. If you agree to sign a hundred for 50 cents and John Sampas

signs them for 50 cents Then it would only be $5.00. An incredible deal and

a great "estate keepsake" for our listeners. Any takers I'm taking orders as

we speak. Any body want one? Don't worry, Gerry says it's all 100% legal and

he should know he is a great scholar and very knowledgable in literary

estate matters.

I'll do Kerouac paperbacks for like 99 cents (there small) that shouldn't be

a problem right Gerry.

Rod if your listening. I do have a big buyer for that stuff we talked about.

It's an all cash deal and you can make some big money on that.I couldn't

believe how much money he was talking about.We can both walk away very happy

E-mail me privately- I'm Serious! Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:43:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: pop quiz question 2

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> >Marie Countryman wrote:

> >>

> >> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

> >

> >a Freudian fart

> >

> >db

>

> ok: now, if a freudian farts in the wildnerness, does anyone care?

anyone doesn't care, if anyone can smoke in the wilderness ...?....

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:46:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

paul caspers wrote:

>

> At 07:49 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>

> >> Premise #1 Swallowing is a basic biological process.

> >> Premise #2 Nice People swallow

> >> Therefore Niceness is a basic biological process for people.

> >>

> >> the same thinking applies somewhat to other notions such as "inhaling"!!

> >

> >David,

> >I like this logic. "Nice people do" works for me. They certainly

> >inhale. This suggests logical problems for mc's "mean people suck"

> >since sucking is also basic biological behavior and therefore nice?

>

> premise #1 People need to swallow in order to feed themselves

> premise #2 Sucking is merely non-essential (biological) behavior

> premise #4 Nice people swallow

> premise #5 Mean people suck

> therefore Niceness is necessary

> and Meanness is not

>

> -Paul C.

i take it the third premise is implied ....

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:23:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <338356CF.6D73@sunflower.com>

At 1:10 PM -0700 5/21/97, Patricia Elliott wrote:

> Lisa,

> you are a treasure.

> p

yes, thank you. I usually just skim the headings of this list and well,

couldn't pass this one up. Have passed it along to various male and female

friends already. Reminds me of the 'how-to-cunnilingus' text that I found

on the web somewhere.

and somewhat offtopic, please let me relate this little bit of info.

Friend and I were talking during lunch the other day, and we got to talking

about sex, (geez I don't know how that happened) and finally he tells/shows

me what is usually said of sex: <wiping his forearm across the mouth

slowly, eyes locked in a tiger embrace, "now, you owe me!!"> I thought

this hilarious and have been waiting for the opportunity to tell it.

cheers and thanx again, Douglas

<<"what do they call that spot

at the base of the neck?

right there, I want it"

(quasi-ralph fiennes

_english patient_)>>

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:27:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Don't be puttin down Mr Magoo

That's right

Don't be puttin down Mr Magoo

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:42:57 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: strange quote from On The Road by Jack Kerouac

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 May 1997 00:14:08 +0200 from <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Well, he wasn't really a policeman. More like a private security guard.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:50:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970522142741.0068a3c4@pop.tiac.net>

Okay, this is an absolutely ridiculous response. Mr. Chaput, I hope this

was meant in a very facetious manner, because otherwise you are making

yourself sound like a fool. If Mr. Nicosia was told he could copy private

property for use, and the law states that this property (the letters) then

became his property, he did nothing wrong. If you, on the otherhand, take

Mr. Nicosia's book, without his permission, and photocopy and sell it,

that is copyright infringement, and last time I checked, a highly illegal

activity.

While i'm writing, I want to make a few other comments. I subscribed to

this list because I'm planning to write my senior thesis on the cultural

impact of the beats and have generally found this a wonderful forum for

new ideas and resources. I think it's great that Mr. Nicosia is on the

list, because even though I have not yet read his book, I know it is

well-respected and that, he, too is considered an expert on Kerouc. I

consider myself lucky to have access to this sort of resource. Hopefully,

he will not become so disgusted with the juvenile accusations and

namecalling directed toward him that he unsubscribes.

It is ridiculous to expect everyone to get along and 'play nicely," but i

don't think it is out of line to expect a group of adults to treat

eachother with respect and present arguments in a mature and analytical

rather than a sophomoric and accusatory manner (as Jerry Cimino poited out

in an excellent post a few days ago).

And Mr. Nicosia, if Chaput and Anstee are at all representative of the

behavioral level of the Sampas clan, then I don't think you have much to

worry about. A decent judge would laugh them out of the court room.

Tracy

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Phil Chaput wrote:

> At 05:44 PM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

> > Antoine Maloney in Montreal writes to ask if MEMORY BABE, my

> >biography of Kerouac, is out of print.

> > No, it is very much in print with University of California Press.

> > You can order it directly from University of California Press at

> >1-800-822-6657. It's now $20 plus shipping and, depending on where you

> >live, sales tax too.

> > Or, if you want a signed copy, you can order it from me, $30

> >postpaid (cash, check, or money order). (Allow time for checks to clear.)

> > Thanks for your interest, Antoine.

> > Best, Gerry Nicosia

> >

> >At 10:48 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >Dear Phil, May 21, 1997

> >

> > To answer one of your reasonable questions--concerning the 2,000

> >xeroxed Kerouac letters in the MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell.

> >(Letters that are now under seal because of John Sampas's threat to take

> >legal action against the library if they show them without his permission.)

> > The reason they were xeroxes is because by far the majority of those

> >people I interviewed would not let me carry off their original Kerouac

> >letters. But they let me xerox them for my own use.

>

>

> Let me get this straight they let you use them for your own use right?

>

> "But they let me xerox them for my own use."GN

> Did you tell them your own use was to sell them for cash and make $7500 with

> U-LOWELL Answer??????????

>

>

> >P.S. You also better go back to law school, or perhaps you were cutting

> >classes the day they went over property rights. If I pay for a xerox copy,

> >that piece of paper belongs to me, and I can give it away or sell it or

> burn it--whatever I please. GN

>

> So let me get this straight if we on the beat-l list pay for a xerox copy of

> your book "Memory Babe"or any other book, then because we paid for the copy

> we can give it away or sell it. No wonder John Lash thinks you shouldn't be

> the literary executor of Jan's estate.

> I propose I will start copying Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe" tonight. I have

> a very fast laser printer with a scanner and I'll be able to sell a copy for

> about $4.00. It's legal Gerry says it is. Hey this could get pretty

> lucrative. Now if I sent the book that I copied what would you charge for to

> sign a bunch. Could I get like 100 signed for say 50 cents apiece. Then it's

> not bad $4.50 for your book signed. But it's OK because the scholar says

> it's legal. If you agree to sign a hundred for 50 cents and John Sampas

> signs them for 50 cents Then it would only be $5.00. An incredible deal and

> a great "estate keepsake" for our listeners. Any takers I'm taking orders as

> we speak. Any body want one? Don't worry, Gerry says it's all 100% legal and

> he should know he is a great scholar and very knowledgable in literary

> estate matters.

> I'll do Kerouac paperbacks for like 99 cents (there small) that shouldn't be

> a problem right Gerry.

>

> Rod if your listening. I do have a big buyer for that stuff we talked about.

> It's an all cash deal and you can make some big money on that.I couldn't

> believe how much money he was talking about.We can both walk away very happy

> E-mail me privately- I'm Serious! Phil

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:04:54 +0000

Reply-To: davo@cjnetworks.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Ohle <davo@CJNETWORKS.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

Pam: Unfortunately I'll be in Columbus, Ohio when Charley is here.

I'll be editing the posthumous book "Prakriti Junction" by William

Burroughs Jr. and will be looking at the materials for that at Ohio

State library. David O.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:06:18 +0000

Reply-To: davo@cjnetworks.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Ohle <davo@CJNETWORKS.COM>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

It occurs to me now that there are more than one David on this list.

Sorry. D.O.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:01:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

FUCKING GROW UP EVERYONE!! Enuff of the little

sarcastic shots at each other. If either side can't

deal with this respectfully take the petty cheap-shots

to private e-mail, PLEASE!! I think it's time to

take a break from Beat-l for awhile, phew...

Sorry, had to say it.

Mike (no more Mr. Nice Guy {;^>)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:19:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

The difference is that, unlike Gerry's lawyer, the Sampas lawyer

>apparently doesn't have a fool for a client!

>

>CHEERS, Rod

>

Dear Rod: May 22, 1997

You've GOT A BIG MOUTH, and you made plenty of accusations, and you

haven't substantiated any of them. In my book, that makes you worse than a

fool, it makes you an IGNORAMUS and a BULLSHITTER.

Your belief that people should act secretly and duplicitously would

have made you a good henchman for Richard Nixon. He would have loved you.

In my book, buddy, it's an honorable thing to speak your mind, to be

open, and to tell the truth. You guys are now trying to make it a virtue

that Sampas won't talk, keeps acting in secret, and won't explain what he's

doing with the Kerouac archive.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. Was Nixon innocent and good because he

wouldn't talk? Or what about some mafia guy taking the "fifth amendment"

over and over again? Do we really believe a man's innocent because he keeps

repeating: "I refuse to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to

incriminate me"?

I said I wasn't going to talk any more about the Kerouac Estate for

a while, to give Sampas a chance to respond privately to me, which I still

hope he will. I'm certainly not demanding that he reveal his business

affairs openly. I am simply saying it's PURE BS for you to claim Sampas is

a better man than me because I openly tell people everything I'm doing and

why, and Sampas remains silent.

Stop calling names, Rod, and put some facts up here. If you've got

any at all.

And by the way, you didn't just buy two letters from the Kerouac

archive, you bought parts of Jack Kerouac's library too. Remember?

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:00:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

Phil Chaput writes:

...-concerning the 2,000

>>xeroxed Kerouac letters in the MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell....

>Did you tell them your own use was to sell them for cash and make $7500 with

>U-LOWELL Answer??????????

>

>

Dear Phil: May 22, 1997

You asked about my sore lips. Do your lips EVER GET SORE FROM LYING?

I sold my ENTIRE RESEARCH COLLECTION to the University of

Massachusetts, Lowell, for $7,500. There was a 48-PAGE CATALOGUE of items,

of which the 2000 xerox Kerouac letters were only one item. Compare this to

Mr. Sampas's vaunted "8 page list" to the NY Public Library.

In my 48-page catalogue there were almost 100 autograph (original,

not xerox) letters from the likes of Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs,

Carolyn Cassady, Gary Snyder, John Clellon Holmes, et al.

There were also 300 taped interviews (NO ONE HAS EVER DUPLICATED

THIS!) with 300 people who knew Kerouac, and thousands of pages of tape

transcriptions. There were also 4 complete drafts of MEMORY BABE, hundreds

of magazines, articles, mini-archives of related documents given to me by

people like Edie Parker and Stanley Twardowicz, etc. etc.

Jerry's right--you're a cartoon, and a badly drawn one at that.

Better go check yourself into Warner Brothers for redrafting.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:14:03 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Chapoo is Magoo

Dear Jerry, May 22, 1997

Although Phil claims you mispronounced his name (and I agree that

Shapoo is closer to the true French pronunciation) it's a fact that in

Lowell Phil's father Joe was sometimes called Shuh-poot to rhyme with "foot"

or "kaput."

In fact, Tony Sampas, one of Joe Chaput's closest friends, always

called him "Shuh-poot."

Just for the historical record.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:40:05 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

In-Reply-To: <199705221619.JAA20525@norway.it.earthlink.net>

people involved in this discussion (you al know who you are)

please take this name calling & insulting & accusations & etc OFF LIST!

this forum ( in my opinion) is for the discussion of beat literature. the

estate conversations have degenerated from literature discussions to

insulting. please do not discuss this here. if any of you want to

contribute or create a conversation about lit, poetry, etc (seperate from

estate & insults) please DO. i welcome any opinions and discussions

concerning beat lit, but please keep the insults down boys.

i welcome any comments.

thanks for yr patience at my little rant

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:49:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

Rod, I welcome the opportunity to ask you some questions. I will ask them in

the spirit of truly understanding your position and without namecalling and

innuendo. I hope you will do the same with your response.

1). Why are Gerry's accusations against Sampas so far fetched for you? He

provides -evidence- for his accusations. So far you have not provided one

shred of evidence in your accusations against Gerry. All you've said is he

is "looney or paranoid or on a crusade". You may or may not have used those

exact words, but you are trying to shift the debate from the Kerouac Archives

to Gerry Nicosia. Why?

2). Why do you think the debate should be about Jan's income from the estate

over the years or Paul Blake? Those are minor side issues, having nothing to

do with the real issue of the Archives. Why shift the debate?

3). What evidence do you have Gerry is after "power & glory". You know this

is not the case yet you persist in making Gerry the issue and not the

Archives. Why?

4). You're obviously someone who knows more about this situation than you're

saying publicly. What are you aware of that has been sold both publicly and

privately? What items were sold? When? To who? For how much? You're not

a dealer like Jeffrey Weinberg, Rod, so you can't hide behind the cover of

client confidentiality. If you want us to really believe you're impartial,

tell us what you know.

5). You keep saying it's all too complicated so we shouldn't bother trying

to sort it out. Why? Why don't you help us sort it out instead of constantly

trying to shift the issue away from the Archive's to Jan or Gerry or Paul

with personal attacks? Why not tell us what you know and help shine a light

on the topic instead of trying to shift the focus?

6). Tell us what you're real motivations are. Why are you such an apologist

for Sampas? Is it because you're embarrassed your name has come up as

someone who purchased parts of the archives? Are your concerned Gerry will

win in court and that might make it look like you purchased "stolen" property

however legitimate you may have thought the transaction was when you did it?

What is your real motivation here, Rod? Why are you trying so desperately

to silence Nicosia?

That'll do for now. You'll notice these are very broad and general

questions, Rod. A nice fat pitch for you to swing at. If you have any real

or credible evidence you should be able to hit a home run! It'd be a shame

if you didn't even step up to the plate.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:49:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Estate Babble

'ey all,

I find it funny. It is funny. Two letters that refer to well over a

thousand words on a particular topic. Topic - five letters. Now we're

getting somewhere.

I don't want to suggest that anyone shut the hell up or anything like

that. I don't want to imply that this legal wrangling spits in the face of

all the things for which Kerouac stood. I don't even want to hint that

there doesn't appear to be much sense in this thread; heaven forbid! thread

makes a lot of sense; I was just speaking with my favorite piece of thread

the other day; we were dicussing the difference between sow and sew; thread

said something profound about rocks; I don't remember its point, sorry;

wait, it was something sharp and metallic; no, it was more about growth and

fertility; ah, I can't remember.

Anyway, why don't you wait until the courts settle this organic muck

before you discuss it. I'm beginning to feel very discouraged as I discern

the personalities of those people in who's hands Kerouac's works lie and are

lying. Again, I'm not going to tell you to shut up, grow up, settle down,

cool down or anything to that effect / affect. You have as much right to

write as I. I will, however, politely ask that you guys lend your expertise

to the subject matter of Beat literature rather than focusing solely upon

where the works are physically and who should have them. Perhaps I ask too

much. "Too much, what do you think?" "Too much."

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:01:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Chapoo is Magoo

At 02:32 AM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Phil,

>

>I'm the one who posted the original "Chaput is Kaput" note and everyone else

>simply replied to it as you well know. Whether Gerry ought to know better as

>to the correct pronunciation isn't an issue at all. And "Kaput" did seem to

>sum up your situation. ;-)

Yes, in your mind anyway.

>

>Thanks for giving me another opportunity to clear things up, because after

>reading your recent posts it makes me realize you really aren't simply Kaput,

>you're Mister Magoo! Phil, you're a cartoon character with these insane

>arguments you make!

>

>You claim Gerry broke the law by making photocopies of Jack's letters. You

>might want to do -your- homework, Phil. It's legal to make a copy for your

>personal use. And you accuse Gerry of not checking his facts!

Personal use yes, but when you then sell those letters for cold hard cash no.

>

>Phil, how about if you answer some questions for a change? You fire assinine

>questions out by the dozens but don't answer any questions at all. Of course

>you're in good company... Anstee and Weinberg aren't any good at answering

>questions either - only making accusations.

>

>Phil, why don't you tell us how much funding LCK! gets from John Sampas?

> This is a very valid question that goes directly to motivation and I am sure

>you will either dodge it or simply not answer at all. I think it is

>important for people to know how much support your organization gets from the

>Sampas family. I know you'll come back (if you come back at all) saying that

>is priveleged information etc, just like some of your friends who can do

>nothing more than make accusations, but there is no reason in the world why

>you can't at least tell us a percentage. Is it 10%? 50%? 100%? Prove me

>wrong, Phil. Show us you can speak with candor instead of always trying to

>muddy up the works.

>

>Phil, you've said on more than one occassion you can't believe Stella Sampas

>would have forged the will. I don't recall Nicosia ever saying it was Stella

>who did it.

He has made that SUGGESTION many times. Who is he suggesting did it?

But be that as it may what makes you think you can judge what

>another person is capable of doing? Do you think the Unabombers mother

>could have believed her son was capable of what he did? Or Timothy

>McVeigh's? Or Son of Sam's? Now before you go popping off I'm comparing

>anyone to mass murderers calm down and understand -this is an analogy,

>Phil-. I'm not saying anyone is a murderer! My making an analogy does not

>mean you get to change the subject by saying I'm saying Stella or anyone else

>is a murderer. Understand? I'm simply saying you can't be inside anyone

>else's head so how can you know what anyone else is really capable of doing?

>

>C'mon, Phil... answer the questions:

>

>1). How much funding does LCK! get from the Sampas family?

I am not a representative of LCK but I know John Sampas pays for the

Literary prize every year and I believe that's all. It is not a secret at

all. It is common knowledge that he does this and no one is trying to hide

it. I believe it even states it on the brochure for the contest.

>

>2). What other -evidence- do you have Nicosia is wrong about anything?

>

>Nicosia tries his best to act like Sampas in in some big conspiracy. Like

when he said only Sampas people knew about the warrant he sold for Jan. That

warrant was placed by Gerry in a Serendipity Books sale or catalog. I

believe it was noticed at a major book show by Sampas' lawyer. He says no

one knew except Sampas people but Gerry must remember when George Tobias

John's attorney called the radio station KQED "Forum" with Mike Craszny

March,31,1995 to ask about why if he wants all the archives to be preserved

why did they sell the only piece of Kerouac material they had. His answer

was they needed the money to get Paul Blake Jr. to a press conference about

the lawsuit. Well didn't Jan make $140,000 in 1993 and $91,000 in 1994 that

same year?I don't think Gerry will deny this. So why did she need to sell

that. Not that I really care why she sold it. It was hers to do what she

wanted with but it just shows the kind of deception Gerry is trying to feed

people. You can't tell me he didn't remember Tobias calling and talking

about it on a major radio show. So I guess it wasn't "inside information"

Jerry by your own admission you only know one side(Gerry's side) of this

whole thing. You have never talked to John Sampas or his representatives

have you? I am not a representative of John Sampas. I really applaud you and

Jo Grant on your efforts for what you think is a good cause. But there is

more than meets the eye. The whole thing boils down to . IS THE WILL FORGED?

We may never know but until that is proven in a court of law the last I

heard in this country. The Sampas family is innocent until proven guilty. I

think when you see the 8 page list of important material you will see that

the Sampas family has put some very important material in the archive at

NYPL. Thanks, Yours Truly,Mr Magoo

>The issue is the archives. Let's stay focussed on that!

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:08:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

At 11:50 AM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Okay, this is an absolutely ridiculous response. Mr. Chaput, I hope this

>was meant in a very facetious manner, because otherwise you are making

>yourself sound like a fool. If Mr. Nicosia was told he could copy private

>property for use, and the law states that this property (the letters) then

>became his property, he did nothing wrong. If you, on the otherhand, take

>Mr. Nicosia's book, without his permission, and photocopy and sell it,

>that is copyright infringement, and last time I checked, a highly illegal

>activity.

>

Of course it's a joke. I wrote this to show how absurd the statement is. If

he copied the letters for his own use it is legal but when he sold them for

cold cash it becomes illegal like it would if I copied and then sold his

letters or books for profit. Phil

>While i'm writing, I want to make a few other comments. I subscribed to

>this list because I'm planning to write my senior thesis on the cultural

>impact of the beats and have generally found this a wonderful forum for

>new ideas and resources. I think it's great that Mr. Nicosia is on the

>list, because even though I have not yet read his book, I know it is

>well-respected and that, he, too is considered an expert on Kerouc. I

>consider myself lucky to have access to this sort of resource. Hopefully,

>he will not become so disgusted with the juvenile accusations and

>namecalling directed toward him that he unsubscribes.

I think 99% of what he has talked about has been estate stuff so I don't

know how he can be helping you with your resources. I wish he would talk

about Kerouac.

> On Thu, 22 May 1997, Phil Chaput wrote:

>

>> At 05:44 PM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> > Antoine Maloney in Montreal writes to ask if MEMORY BABE, my

>> >biography of Kerouac, is out of print.

>> > No, it is very much in print with University of California Press.

>> > You can order it directly from University of California Press at

>> >1-800-822-6657. It's now $20 plus shipping and, depending on where you

>> >live, sales tax too.

>> > Or, if you want a signed copy, you can order it from me, $30

>> >postpaid (cash, check, or money order). (Allow time for checks to clear.)

>> > Thanks for your interest, Antoine.

>> > Best, Gerry Nicosia

>> >

>> >At 10:48 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> >Dear Phil, May 21, 1997

>> >

>> > To answer one of your reasonable questions--concerning the 2,000

>> >xeroxed Kerouac letters in the MEMORY BABE archive at U Mass, Lowell.

>> >(Letters that are now under seal because of John Sampas's threat to take

>> >legal action against the library if they show them without his permission.)

>> > The reason they were xeroxes is because by far the majority of those

>> >people I interviewed would not let me carry off their original Kerouac

>> >letters. But they let me xerox them for my own use.

>>

>>

>> Let me get this straight they let you use them for your own use right?

>>

>> "But they let me xerox them for my own use."GN

>> Did you tell them your own use was to sell them for cash and make $7500 with

>> U-LOWELL Answer??????????

>>

>>

>> >P.S. You also better go back to law school, or perhaps you were cutting

>> >classes the day they went over property rights. If I pay for a xerox copy,

>> >that piece of paper belongs to me, and I can give it away or sell it or

>> burn it--whatever I please. GN

>>

>> So let me get this straight if we on the beat-l list pay for a xerox copy of

>> your book "Memory Babe"or any other book, then because we paid for the copy

>> we can give it away or sell it. No wonder John Lash thinks you shouldn't be

>> the literary executor of Jan's estate.

>> I propose I will start copying Gerry Nicosia's "Memory Babe" tonight. I have

>> a very fast laser printer with a scanner and I'll be able to sell a copy for

>> about $4.00. It's legal Gerry says it is. Hey this could get pretty

>> lucrative. Now if I sent the book that I copied what would you charge for to

>> sign a bunch. Could I get like 100 signed for say 50 cents apiece. Then it's

>> not bad $4.50 for your book signed. But it's OK because the scholar says

>> it's legal. If you agree to sign a hundred for 50 cents and John Sampas

>> signs them for 50 cents Then it would only be $5.00. An incredible deal and

>> a great "estate keepsake" for our listeners. Any takers I'm taking orders as

>> we speak. Any body want one? Don't worry, Gerry says it's all 100% legal and

>> he should know he is a great scholar and very knowledgable in literary

>> estate matters.

>> I'll do Kerouac paperbacks for like 99 cents (there small) that shouldn't be

>> a problem right Gerry.

>>

>> Rod if your listening. I do have a big buyer for that stuff we talked about.

>> It's an all cash deal and you can make some big money on that.I couldn't

>> believe how much money he was talking about.We can both walk away very happy

>> E-mail me privately- I'm Serious! Phil

>>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:32:19 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Ginsberg Memorial in Paterson

On Sunday June 8 at 2:00 pm the Passaic County Community College Poetry

Center will sponsor a memorial for Allen Ginsberg at the Great Falls (in

front of the Special Events Office, McBride and Spruce Streets) where

Stefan Smith will perform on the guitar. Readings will be held at the

Paterson Museum, 2 Market Street. Speakers include Bob Rosenthal, Andy

Clausen, Eliot Katz, Joel Galdernak, Herschel Silverman, Laura Boss,

Danny Shot, Jan Barry. An open poetry reading is also scheduled. For

further information call 201-684-6555

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:58:25 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS (and the estate battles...)

I had a friend visit last weekend whom I haven't seen for 8 years. It was

amazing how much he and I have both changed over the years. He used to love

debate; now he loves to argue. He used to love truth and seek it diligently;

now he seeks to be right, always. He used to be a friend with whom I sought to

better understand this world; now he's the last person to whom I would take a

topic I want to bounce off a kindred spirit. He is antagonistic, opinionated,

and won't listen to reason. He won't cite the sources he quotes (indeed, he

admits he doesn't remember where he "read" this or that), and he won't

acknowledge good points made by the opposition.

As I said to my wife the day after he left: "... it was like having

conversations with Rush Limbaugh."

The point is, however, that it didn't take my wife and I long to realize that we

wouldn't get anywhere continuing to "debate" issues with him. So, we suggested

that we take his kids to the park. We played on the swings, slid down the

slides, and monkey'ed around on the monkey bars. We tossed a frisbee around,

chased squirrels and woodpeckers, and laughed at the neighborhood kids who

dizzily meandered off the merry-go-round. Next thing we knew, we were all

friendly again. Next thing we knew, we saw the old Marty again, and a

friendship (at least a portion of it) was restored.

That's the beauty of reconciliation. That's the beauty of shifting focus for a

few moments. Suddenly you realize that there's something more important...

something that will make a difference. You realize that in the sweaty ring of

debate, you were wrong, too.

Am I trying to say something to those participating in the debate battle? As

they say in Texas: "Damn straight." :)

Be at peace, fellows. There's something better on that side.

Respectfully, ---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:09:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

In-Reply-To: <199705221601.MAA32566@ionline.net>

>FUCKING GROW UP EVERYONE!! Enuff of the little

>sarcastic shots at each other. If either side can't

>deal with this respectfully take the petty cheap-shots

>to private e-mail, PLEASE!! I think it's time to

>take a break from Beat-l for awhile, phew...

>

>Sorry, had to say it.

>

>Mike (no more Mr. Nice Guy {;^>)

hey there mike, i couldnt agree more, and i thought i had offered my own

opinion as well, but then when one's sense of humor is so out of whack that

my references to 1)the hatfields & 2)the mc-coys 3)the back 40 etc.

but yes please-take it off the list, *please*! as folks appear so turned

off that any attempt to begin a new thread become buried beneath

viturpritive posts to and fro. it's been disenchanting to me that my return

to the list is in midst of such an lord of the flies syndrome.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:26:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970522113648.65738B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

thank you derek.

>people involved in this discussion (you al know who you are)

>please take this name calling & insulting & accusations & etc OFF LIST!

>this forum ( in my opinion) is for the discussion of beat literature. the

>estate conversations have degenerated from literature discussions to

>insulting. please do not discuss this here. if any of you want to

>contribute or create a conversation about lit, poetry, etc (seperate from

>estate & insults) please DO. i welcome any opinions and discussions

>concerning beat lit, but please keep the insults down boys.

>i welcome any comments.

>thanks for yr patience at my little rant

>yrs

>derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:39:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

In-Reply-To: <33835385.1001@midusa.net>

On Wed, 21 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> i hope that the trip to Chicago was rewarding. i'd seriously intended

> to visit Thomas Park here and Salina to witness a small celebration in

> route to the larger ones. i thought it would be an interesting learning

> experience. unfortunately, sinus infections and chemical imbalances

> found me passed out on the couch.

>

> i was wondering if you knew anything about the below. So far, nobody

> has shared any information.

>

I wanted to respond to the question about text regarding Kerouac's

thoughts on Burroughs. David---you may want to take a look at the section

in Dharma Bums, where Jack visits Burroughs. Although some of it is

presumably fictionalized, he does criticize "Naked Lunch," which of course

at the time was yet to be titled.

Then again, you might already be privy to this information.

Jenn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:54:54 -0700

Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> it's been disenchanting to me that my return

> to the list is in midst of such an lord of the flies syndrome.

> mc

THE ONLY WAR THAT MATTERS IS THE WAR AGAINST THE IMAGINATION

ALL OTHER WARS ARE SUBSUMED IN IT (DiPrima)

I agree...the intelligent debates are worth reading, but take the

bickering elsewhere.

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:02:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

At 03:39 PM 5/22/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Wed, 21 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

>

>> i hope that the trip to Chicago was rewarding. i'd seriously intended

>> to visit Thomas Park here and Salina to witness a small celebration in

>> route to the larger ones. i thought it would be an interesting learning

>> experience. unfortunately, sinus infections and chemical imbalances

>> found me passed out on the couch.

>>

>> i was wondering if you knew anything about the below. So far, nobody

>> has shared any information.

>>

>I wanted to respond to the question about text regarding Kerouac's

>thoughts on Burroughs. David---you may want to take a look at the section

>in Dharma Bums, where Jack visits Burroughs. Although some of it is

>presumably fictionalized, he does criticize "Naked Lunch," which of course

>at the time was yet to be titled.

>

It had been a long time since I have read Dharma Bums or Desolation Angels,

so I could be wrong, but don't you mean Desolation Angels rather than the

Dharma Bums.

>Then again, you might already be privy to this information.

>Jenn

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:10:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

In-Reply-To: <199705222102.OAA29117@hsc.usc.edu>

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> At 03:39 PM 5/22/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >On Wed, 21 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> >

> >> i hope that the trip to Chicago was rewarding. i'd seriously intended

> >> to visit Thomas Park here and Salina to witness a small celebration in

> >> route to the larger ones. i thought it would be an interesting learning

> >> experience. unfortunately, sinus infections and chemical imbalances

> >> found me passed out on the couch.

> >>

> >> i was wondering if you knew anything about the below. So far, nobody

> >> has shared any information.

> >>

> >I wanted to respond to the question about text regarding Kerouac's

> >thoughts on Burroughs. David---you may want to take a look at the section

> >in Dharma Bums, where Jack visits Burroughs. Although some of it is

> >presumably fictionalized, he does criticize "Naked Lunch," which of course

> >at the time was yet to be titled.

> >

>

> It had been a long time since I have read Dharma Bums or Desolation Angels,

> so I could be wrong, but don't you mean Desolation Angels rather than the

> Dharma Bums.

>

> I thought it was Dharma Bums, but you may be right. I'll have to go

home and check my Kerouac portable. Thanks for the correction, though.

Jenn

>

>

> >Then again, you might already be privy to this information.

> >Jenn

> >

> >

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:42:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry N. -- non-estate matter

At 03:39 PM 5/22/97 -0500, Jennifer wrote:

>On Wed, 21 May 1997, RACE --- wrote:

>> i was wondering if you knew anything about the below. So far, nobody

>> has shared any information.

>>

>I wanted to respond to the question about text regarding Kerouac's

>thoughts on Burroughs. David---you may want to take a look at the section

>in Dharma Bums, where Jack visits Burroughs. Although some of it is

>presumably fictionalized, he does criticize "Naked Lunch," which of course

>at the time was yet to be titled.

I believe somewhere in _Vanity Of Duluoz_ there are

a couple blurbs on his feelings towards "O Will Hubbard in

the night." I believe one of them talks about eventually

writing a book about him? Don't have the time to check,

sorry.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:48:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: pop quiz question 2

In a message dated 97-05-22 10:30:30 EDT, you write:

<< >> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

>

>a Freudian fart

>

>db

ok: now, if a freudian farts in the wildnerness, does anyone care? >>

Not if no one smells it.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:48:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In a message dated 97-05-21 16:15:20 EDT, you write:

<< HOW TO SUCK rooster - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS. >>

Now comes the important part. Can someone head me in the right direction and

tell me how I could put this important information into more practical use?

Can someone erect a website with visual aids as well?

Dick Hertz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:48:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Lies, Money, and Videotape

May 22, 1997

Mr. Chaput continues his lying crusade against me.

In his latest CHAPOO IS MAGOO post, he claims that "He [Gerald

Nicosia] made that SUGGESTION [that Stella forged Gabrielle's will] many times."

NOW I CHALLENGE THIS GRAND LIAR, PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE! PUT UP OR

SHUT UP, CHAPUT!

Please print the quotation from speech, interview, article, radio

interview, whatever, where I say that Stella forged Gabrielle Kerouac's

will. Please give proper citation, name of publication or place of speech,

date, --if it is oral, will you supply the tape? etc.

I have stated that there is considerable evidence, including a crack

handwriting analyst's report, that the will is forged. I have never said

who forged the will, if it is indeed forged. I have no way of knowing

that--at least at present.

The trouble is, Mr. Chaput can keep posting these lies faster than I

can answer them, since I am also answering Anstee and the other cheap-shot

artists at the same time.

HOW'S ABOUT I THROW SOME QUESTIONS BACK YOUR WAY?

My finances have been laid bare here by Anstee and Chaput--how much

I make as literary executor, how much I sold my MEMORY BABE archive for.

Jan Kerouac's finances have also been laid bare here by Chaput, Gyensis, et

al. How about equal time for the other side?

Before I answer any more questions, I'd like to know:

1) How much Mr. Chaput has made either directly or indirectly --i.e.

working for Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!--from Mr. Sampas? Has he or anyone

in his family benefited from Mr. Sampas's patronage?

2) What is Mr. Chaput's income this year as compared to previous years?

3) How much Mr. Anstee paid for the various items in his Kerouac

collection, especially those he purchased from John Sampas, and how much

those items have gone up in value?

4) How much Mr. Anstee expects to sell his Kerouac collection for

someday?

5) How much money Mr. Sampas earns per year off Jack Kerouac's

royalties?

6) How much money has Mr. Sampas earned from selling off pieces of

Jack Kerouac's archive?

7) What financial help has Attila Gyensis received for his DHARMA

BEAT magazine from Mr. Sampas, including Viking/Penguin advertisements that

Mr. Sampas arranged for Viking/Penguin to place there? How much has Mr.

Gyensis earned from working for Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, which we learned

is partly financed by Mr. Sampas?

8) How much money did Ann Charters pay for the pieces of the Kerouac

Archive which she purchased from Mr. Sampas, and how much have they gone up

in value since then? Were the pieces she purchased from Mr. Sampas part of

the Charters Beat Archive which she recently sold to the New York Public

Library?

9) Is it true Ann Charters received ONE QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS for

her own Beat Archive, which she recently sold to the New York Public

Library? And that Kerouac materials were a substantial part of that archive?

10) Were there any xeroxes in Ann Charters' archive?

11) How much money has Ann Charters earned in total, from the jobs,

deals, etc., which Mr. Sampas has offered her, including editing the

PORTABLE KEROUAC, the 2 volumes of the SELECTED LETTERS, contributing to the

KEROUAC CD-ROM, etc.?

OKAY, guys, I'm waiting.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:55:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: Chapoo is Magoo

In-Reply-To: <970522023259_-731659152@emout07.mail.aol.com>

SAVE US FROM THE BEAN COUNTERS THE PAPERS PUSHERS THE PENCIL GRINDING

MUCUS MINDED MELEE OF DRONES AND BONES AND CLONES OF TEA TOTALERS!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:06:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

At 04:09 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>FUCKING GROW UP EVERYONE!! Enuff of the little

>>sarcastic shots at each other. If either side can't

>>deal with this respectfully take the petty cheap-shots

>>to private e-mail, PLEASE!! I think it's time to

>>take a break from Beat-l for awhile, phew...

>>

>>Sorry, had to say it.

>>

>>Mike (no more Mr. Nice Guy {;^>)

>

>hey there mike, i couldnt agree more, and i thought i had offered my own

>opinion as well, but then when one's sense of humor is so out of whack that

>my references to 1)the hatfields & 2)the mc-coys 3)the back 40 etc.

>but yes please-take it off the list, *please*! as folks appear so turned

>off that any attempt to begin a new thread become buried beneath

>viturpritive posts to and fro. it's been disenchanting to me that my return

>to the list is in midst of such an lord of the flies syndrome.

>mc

>

>

they should maybe check out the mean ppl suck thread and jump on that one.

remember: to get good head, give only the best!

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:09:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

Attila Gyenis wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-21 16:15:20 EDT, you write:

>

> << HOW TO SUCK rooster - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

> WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS. >>

>

> Now comes the important part. Can someone head me in the right direction and

> tell me how I could put this important information into more practical use?

> Can someone erect a website with visual aids as well?

>

> Dick Hertz

i'm not certain, but i think this is a different notion of "beat

generation" .....

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:10:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: CHAPOO IS MAGOO

Dear Phil-- May 22, 1997

Don't you know liars go to hell?

YOU KNOW FUCKING WELL I WASN'T RUNNING AROUND THE COUNTRY XEROXING

KEROUAC LETTERS SO I COULD SELL THEM FOR 'COLD HARD CASH'! I worked six

years gathering thousands and thousands of pieces of information for what is

considered worldwide as the most detailed biography of Jack Kerouac: MEMORY

BABE--a fact even Ann Charters has attested to. I gathered Kerouac letters

just as I gathered millions of other facts, to put together into the best

book I could write. And I then sold that whole gathering of material for a

very, very modest cost ot the University of Lowell (Charters got a quarter

million for her archive), with the hope that thosuands of other scholars

could make use of it. Mr. Sampas has now frustrated that effort.

Jan's warrant never appeared in a Serendipity book catalogue.

Provide the catalogue, please, date, volume no. etc. It doesn't exist, and

you know it.

Thanks for reminding me that Tobia called KQED radio in San

Francisco to mention the warrant over two years ago. I'd forgotten that,

amidst the mountains of other bullshit I have to deal with.

But since when do you listen to San Francisco radio, Phil? Can you

get the signal all the way from Lowell?

By the way, Tobia never mentioned it was Serendipity books. YOU AND

YOUR FRIENDS CLAIM YOU'RE NOT GETTING THIS INFORMATION FROM JOHN SAMPAS.

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING IT FROM, THEN, PHIL?

Jan Kerouac never earned $140,000 in any year. From what I learned

from her accountant, 1993 was her best year, but her income was somewhat

under $120,000. But for the ten years she got Kerouac royalties, 1986-1995,

she averaged about $50,000 a year. Take off ten thousand or more for taxes,

that's an average of $40,000 a year of spendable income, not a lot for

SOMEONE WHO WAS ON LIFE SUPPORT FOR FIVE OF THOSE YEARS.

BY THE WAY, IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING THIS STUFF FROM SAMPAS, JUST WHERE

ARE YOU GETTING FACTS ON JAN'S INCOME??? SHE DIDN'T GIVE THAT STUFF OUT, AND

THE IRS CONSIDERS IT CONFIDENTIAL AND WILL NOT RELEASE IT WITHOUT PERMISSION.

I await some honest answers.

P.S. WHY DON'T YOU JUST POST THIS MAGIC 8-PAGE LIST, if it's so

germane to your argument?

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:04:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: rants raves and other quandries

In-Reply-To: <199705222148.OAA12515@norway.it.earthlink.net>

<big snip>

I swore I would not respond to any of these posts, but regardless of how

many people complain, it doesn't seem to do much good.

Listen up to all involved in the Estate Fight: This has become nothing but

drag down dirty fight between those involved. At this point (and for the

last few weeks) any mail from the main contributors in this "fight" has

been automatically delted. I (and I assume others as well) really do not

care the name calling, the back biting, and all the other related

information that has been given over the list.

I have in the last few weeks aquired a new email address, which I was

slowly moving the other listservs over to. This one, I have not for the

very reason that it is not UNCOMMON for me boot up my mail after a short

period (couple of hours) to find anywhere from 25+ new messages from this

list and MAJORITY of them relating to the Estate saga. Its getting to be

annoying, tiresome as well as frustrating that those involved will not and

have refused to take it off list.

This list in part has slowly become nothing but a sewing circle with people

whining, gossiping and bickering about who fucked who, who backstabbed who,

and etc etc etc. Grow up. Majority of the people on this list are acting

like whiny spoiled brats and not adults. This list is 'suppossedly' to be

about beat LITERATURE, it is not about Chaput or Nicosia or whomever else

is fighting this estate thing. From my understanding, its been going on for

a long time, and will continue to go on regardless if this list is here or

not. We all have right in voicing our opions on this list because it is

"us" the listee's that make this list happen. And from the respones that

are coming through about how many people are getting sick and tired of the

bitching and the whining, you would THINK that those involved would get the

hint and move it off list or better yet, start your own damn listserv where

those who care can fight it out and waste all the bandwidth they want.

I am ashamed to say that this list has deterioted to nothing but a showing

of whose has a bigger ego, and for that alone, all those involved should be

ashamed.

</rant off>

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:12:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: pop quiz

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afa9a9b2821b@[206.25.67.125]>

THE SOUND OF DRONES AND BONES AND CLONES OF TEA TOTALERS.....

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:13:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: pop quiz question 2

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afa9bb62a9ca@[206.25.67.104]>

only his mother...

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

> >Marie Countryman wrote:

> >>

> >> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

> >

> >a Freudian fart

> >

> >db

>

> ok: now, if a freudian farts in the wildnerness, does anyone care?

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:18:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: K Sands Boehmer <ksbedit@SHORE.NET>

Subject: unsubscribe

Bill,

I tried to unsubscribe to the Beat list yesterday. :-(

I just started a new job this week and can't be distracted. :-(

I Thought I followed the directions in your introductory memo but I guess I

did it incorrectly.

Could you unsub me for a while?

Kath

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:11:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <338356CF.6D73@sunflower.com>

At 03:10 PM 5/21/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Lisa,

>you are a treasure.

>p

>

>

thank you p ;)

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:13:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970522162750.1fd78a4e@mail.worldonline.nl>

At 04:28 PM 5/22/97 +0200, you wrote:

>At 07:49 AM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>

>>> Premise #1 Swallowing is a basic biological process.

>>> Premise #2 Nice People swallow

>>> Therefore Niceness is a basic biological process for people.

>>>

>>> the same thinking applies somewhat to other notions such as "inhaling"!!

>>

>>David,

>>I like this logic. "Nice people do" works for me. They certainly

>>inhale. This suggests logical problems for mc's "mean people suck"

>>since sucking is also basic biological behavior and therefore nice?

>

>premise #1 People need to swallow in order to feed themselves

>premise #2 Sucking is merely non-essential (biological) behavior

>premise #4 Nice people swallow

>premise #5 Mean people suck

>therefore Niceness is necessary

>and Meanness is not

>

>-Paul C.

>

>

erm, premise #2 is wrong, how would a baby get milk from a bottle or its

mother if it was non-essetial? It can't frightly feed itself with a

fork/spoon?

ttfn.

lisa

(and if premise 2 is wrong, that makes all the other premises wrong as

well, as niceness is not necessary ;)

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:15:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

In-Reply-To: <970522174651_270536955@emout10.mail.aol.com>

At 05:48 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-21 16:15:20 EDT, you write:

>

><< HOW TO SUCK rooster - A 14 LESSON TUTORIAL

> WITH TECHNIQUES FROM SOME OF THE EXPERTS. >>

>

>Now comes the important part. Can someone head me in the right direction and

>tell me how I could put this important information into more practical use?

> Can someone erect a website with visual aids as well?

>

>Dick Hertz

>

>

ummm..give me enough money i can show you anything ;>

but you better get a bunch of bananas though as well ;)

ttfn. lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:32:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: pop quiz question 2

In-Reply-To: <970522174652_438926203@emout11.mail.aol.com>

Attila, you get an A+ and a seat upwind in the classroom in the sky

><< >> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

> >

> >a Freudian fart

> >

> >db

>

> ok: now, if a freudian farts in the wildnerness, does anyone care? >>

>

>Not if no one smells it.

@@@@@@

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:36:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Truce-Peace

It is obvious by Lisa and Marie's and others posts that people are sick to

death of this estate talk. I have been on the list for a few years now and

have enjoyed talking about Kerouac. It is hard to keep quite when you know

something is being said that isn't right. Especially for a hot-tempered

Frenchman like myself. But apparently people have had enough. I am willing

to call it quits about the estate stuff if everyone else will. Hell even if

they don't stop. I WILL. Let's talk KEROUAC like the good old days. Let's

end it all right here and now. No more jabs after the bell rings.Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:41:06 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: a calm request

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To: <199705222148.OAA12515@norway.it.earthlink.net>

mr nicosia

i am very pleased that you are on beat-L. personally i think that a man of

yr scholarship on the topic of beat literature could be a great thing in a

small forum like beat-L.

if the conversations were to drift toward lit. i think that you (and all

members of beat-L) would

really have a chance to shine & that we would all benefit from the quiet &

calm discussions of literature, etc.

please, i ask you - please - either ignore those posts that bother you by

making claims or accusations (or whatever) by not responding or please do

not respond to

them in this forum, rather do so privately via e-mail or whatever place

you see fit.

i think that beat-L is suffering.

as sane people im sure we can all meet regardless of political sway & talk

*literature* around this "cyber" table.

I ask you only what i try to deliver myself & what i would ask from all

here.

i ask all people on this list to read and consider this message whether yr

name is gerry nicosia or phil chaput or jerry cimino or derek beaulieu or

whatever. just please consider this.

i think i speak for many members of this forum.

thank you for yr time & patience

yours

derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:49:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: For Gerry and friends

Everyone's tried to be nice about this estate bullshit. I can't be polite

anymore. Just shut the fuck up. For fuck's sake, shut the fuckin fuck up

you stupid fuckin fucks. Form a splinter list so you can continue you're

childish little rants. You're stifling those with interesting things to

say. Your: You're a liar. No, you're a liar. Liar. Prove it. Where's

the evidence. It's all tiresome. I'd like to challenge... you and your

friends to shut the fuck up. I'll give you two days to finish your little

squabble. After that, I'm bringing out the big fuckin guns. Peace.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:11:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mitchell Smith <WordKicks@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Books Garage Sale III

Dear Howard:

Please Put me on your list for the Beat list--not at this address tho, at

Turtl Isle (also on aol).

Mitchell

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:52:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: [Fwd: Hello]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------4068926300A2EC7DBA324E28

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think that I sent this to the wrong address. I hope this is right.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------4068926300A2EC7DBA324E28

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <3384DA5C.E5EFE677@scsn.net>

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:44:28 -0400

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

Subject: Hello

X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi folks:

I am just signed on to the list. Is there any place I can go to see

archives of the list.

I am a Jack Kerouac fan and look forward to reading the list.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------4068926300A2EC7DBA324E28--

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:52:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: For Gerry and friends

At 03:49 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Everyone's tried to be nice about this estate bullshit. I can't be polite

>anymore. Just shut the fuck up. For fuck's sake, shut the fuckin fuck up

>you stupid fuckin fucks. Form a splinter list so you can continue you're

>childish little rants. You're stifling those with interesting things to

>say. Your: You're a liar. No, you're a liar. Liar. Prove it. Where's

>the evidence. It's all tiresome. I'd like to challenge... you and your

>friends to shut the fuck up. I'll give you two days to finish your little

>squabble. After that, I'm bringing out the big fuckin guns. Peace.

>

> James M.

>

>

I'd much rather hear these guys slug it out verbally than your impolite

rantings.

James, do us a favor and simply don't read their fighting. I like to read it.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:57:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: a calm request

I agree and disagree. I agree that the drift toward literature would be great.

But I cannot agree that it is better on private e-mail.

I like to read this. It is interesting in amny multifaceted ways.

I think threads like fudge and suck and swallow are collosal bores and great

waste of this list,

that's just my opinion

but I do not ask that they take it to email

read and let read, write and let write

I do not think that their posts make the list suffer.

I think other threads make it suffer but others might like those threads

At 04:41 PM 5/22/97 -0600, you wrote:

>mr nicosia

>i am very pleased that you are on beat-L. personally i think that a man of

>yr scholarship on the topic of beat literature could be a great thing in a

>small forum like beat-L.

>if the conversations were to drift toward lit. i think that you (and all

>members of beat-L) would

>really have a chance to shine & that we would all benefit from the quiet &

>calm discussions of literature, etc.

>please, i ask you - please - either ignore those posts that bother you by

>making claims or accusations (or whatever) by not responding or please do

>not respond to

>them in this forum, rather do so privately via e-mail or whatever place

>you see fit.

>i think that beat-L is suffering.

>as sane people im sure we can all meet regardless of political sway & talk

>*literature* around this "cyber" table.

>I ask you only what i try to deliver myself & what i would ask from all

>here.

>i ask all people on this list to read and consider this message whether yr

>name is gerry nicosia or phil chaput or jerry cimino or derek beaulieu or

>whatever. just please consider this.

>i think i speak for many members of this forum.

>thank you for yr time & patience

>yours

>derek beaulieu

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:01:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Time magazine-Kerouac

Time magazine recently did a special edition mostly about art in the U.S.

with short articles and beautiful color photos of major American works of

art. A very interesting read. In the middle was a time-line format with

photos of major events in American history. It listed three books among the

major events of American history one was Melville's "Moby Dick" the other

Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" and last but not least

(drum roll) Jack Kerouac's "On the Road". Now that's what I call

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:05:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

I 've been finding much of the estate dialogue fascinating and would not

want it taken private e-mail. Some of it certainly is deletable, but so

much more is informative and interesting.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:18:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

At 03:04 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>This list is 'suppossedly' to be

>about beat LITERATURE, it is not about Chaput or Nicosia or whomever else

>is fighting this estate thing.

Hmm, funny statement coming from someone who posted this

_________________________________

"erm, premise #2 is wrong, how would a baby get milk from a bottle or its

mother if it was non-essetial? It can't frightly feed itself with a

fork/spoon?

ttfn.

lisa

(and if premise 2 is wrong, that makes all the other premises wrong as

well, as niceness is not necessary ;)"

______________________________________-

In another thread.

Nothing personal, and no complaints about this other swallowing thread, but

it seems that the rants and gossip you complain about is more related to

beat stuff than this swallowing thread.

You see what I mean?

Take care, no animosity, just observation and comment.

I like reading the estate battle posts.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:21:27 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <199705222357.QAA26972@hsc.usc.edu>

timothy and co.

what i tried to emphasize was the heated insulting nature of so many

emails that is injuring the community spirit that can be found around this

"cyber table". insulting name calling and a general accusationary tone can

only do harm to a community (*who ever* writes it). i had meant that

messages that offend or "bother" people in whatever way should not be

replied to in this way in a public forum - if you want to get finger

pointing and name calling then move back & settle yr disputes alone - when

you can speak calmly about the issues THEN come back and share yr thoughts

with the rest of us. what do any of us gain from being exposed to some of

the anger & almost violent sturm und drang that takes place around these

parts almost daily. please gentlemen & ladies relax, take a breath,

gather yr thoughts and lets TALK/WRITE/COMPOSE/LAUGH together, not fight.

come on folks

thats what i meant.

derek beaulieu

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

> I agree and disagree. I agree that the drift toward literature would be

great.

> But I cannot agree that it is better on private e-mail.

> I like to read this. It is interesting in amny multifaceted ways.

> I think threads like fudge and suck and swallow are collosal bores and great

> waste of this list,

> that's just my opinion

> but I do not ask that they take it to email

> read and let read, write and let write

> I do not think that their posts make the list suffer.

> I think other threads make it suffer but others might like those threads

>

> At 04:41 PM 5/22/97 -0600, you wrote:

> >mr nicosia

> >i am very pleased that you are on beat-L. personally i think that a man of

> >yr scholarship on the topic of beat literature could be a great thing in a

> >small forum like beat-L.

> >if the conversations were to drift toward lit. i think that you (and all

> >members of beat-L) would

> >really have a chance to shine & that we would all benefit from the quiet &

> >calm discussions of literature, etc.

> >please, i ask you - please - either ignore those posts that bother you by

> >making claims or accusations (or whatever) by not responding or please do

> >not respond to

> >them in this forum, rather do so privately via e-mail or whatever place

> >you see fit.

> >i think that beat-L is suffering.

> >as sane people im sure we can all meet regardless of political sway & talk

> >*literature* around this "cyber" table.

> >I ask you only what i try to deliver myself & what i would ask from all

> >here.

> >i ask all people on this list to read and consider this message whether yr

> >name is gerry nicosia or phil chaput or jerry cimino or derek beaulieu or

> >whatever. just please consider this.

> >i think i speak for many members of this forum.

> >thank you for yr time & patience

> >yours

> >derek beaulieu

> >

> >

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:25:42 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

In-Reply-To: <199705230018.RAA29807@hsc.usc.edu>

beat-L members

dont you think taht the absurdity of the swallow & etc posts that can be

found lately may be a direct respose to some of the heated nature of the

other posts? one group of authors is fighting & insulting & getting very

heated & upset... the other part is simply joking around & relaxing (in my

opinion) until the conversations relax.

so much heat around these parts

makes it a little hard to want to be part of the soup

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:47:00 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Brad Parker Speaks

I thought Brad Parker was one of the stops on the Monopoly game...

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:52:01 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: A Retraction of Sorts

The estate controversy _could_ be interesting if people were willing to

periodically report any progress instead of assissinating (sp?) the

character of those involved, which is the way it has boiled down. I know

that my last posting was harsh but the synopsis of this list I received

before subscribing suggested that literature, not court cases, would be the

topic of discussion.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:56:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

Why did Mr. Sampas cross the road?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:57:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

...to sell another (single) Kerouac item!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:02:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

>

> Why did Mr. Sampas cross the road?

let's see ....... hmm...

to recruit another prospective conspirator?????

to catch a prospective buyer?????

to negotiate with the NYPL?????

because it wasn't there ?????

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:29:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970522181440.25850B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

"cyber table"

insulting name calling

and a general accusationary tone

messages that offend

or "bother" people

finger pointing

and name calling

move back &

settle yr disputes alone

you can speak calmly about the issues

please gentlemen & ladies

relax,

take a breath,

gather yr thoughts

and lets TALK together

WRITE together

COMPOSE together

LAUGH together,

not fight.

come on folks

thats what i meant.

derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:51:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request - and unending conversation

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> "cyber table"

neither round nor square and somewhere

between Merlin's beard

and a 23 year old

waitress at a cafe

near

Lexington

>

> insulting name calling

like

your momma

and my daddy didn't

and this

and that

and my redwagon can

kick your ass

in a pinewood derby

down

desolation peak

> and a general accusationary tone

>

> messages that offend

> or "bother" people

or raise the hair on the

back of our collective cybernecks

at the cybertable

with

a cyber menu and words spewed out

sunny-side up

at dawn

>

> finger pointing

> and name calling

the fans jeer the villains

who duel

from opposite

edges of

a double-edged

cabbage

>

> move back &

> settle yr disputes alone

but remember

that doing so

can bring on blindness

>

> you can speak calmly about the issues

issues is a euphemism

for words on

subjects

that are best used

as

toilet paper

in the woods

>

> please gentlemen & ladies

start your engines

but hold

the blows to body slams

and poking eyes

and leave each other's

characters

and the

characters

of those not at the

cyber table

and the cartoon

characters

that dream of such

feuds in

toonsville

visions

out of the

exchanges

>

> relax,

> take a breath,

> gather yr thoughts

then realize that breathing

beats

bitching

and a wooden nickel

buys a

plate of

sauerkraut at the

diner

in West Dodge

>

> and lets TALK together

> WRITE together

> COMPOSE together

> LAUGH together,

> not fight.

Mr. Rogers joins Pee Wee Hermann

in a friendly embrace

with the ghost

of Captain Kangaroo

reminding Mr. Green Jeans

that

kindness and playful

friendship

is the path to

enlightenment

>

> come on folks

let's join in a good round

of row row row

your boat

and

tequila shots

for all at the

cyber-table

on the cyber-house

>

> thats what i meant.

that's what i meant to mean

i think

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:07:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

In-Reply-To: <199705230018.RAA29807@hsc.usc.edu>

At 05:18 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 03:04 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>

>>This list is 'suppossedly' to be

>>about beat LITERATURE, it is not about Chaput or Nicosia or whomever else

>>is fighting this estate thing.

>

>Hmm, funny statement coming from someone who posted this

>_________________________________

>"erm, premise #2 is wrong, how would a baby get milk from a bottle or its

>mother if it was non-essetial? It can't frightly feed itself with a

>fork/spoon?

>

>ttfn.

>

>lisa

>

>(and if premise 2 is wrong, that makes all the other premises wrong as

>well, as niceness is not necessary ;)"

>______________________________________-

>

>

>In another thread.

>

>Nothing personal, and no complaints about this other swallowing thread, but

>it seems that the rants and gossip you complain about is more related to

>beat stuff than this swallowing thread.

>

>You see what I mean?

>

>Take care, no animosity, just observation and comment.

>

>I like reading the estate battle posts.

>

Ummm..Im sorry, but I don't fill over 200+ subscribers a day with probably

over 100k of crap about whose a liar, whose fucking who, who is screwed

who, and who believed who about what where and when. Thats great that you

liek to read the posts, but unfortunately, the majority of the list seems

to disagree with you and there has been many polite and unpolite requests

to move all estate battles to another list (ie start your own) so that the

rest of us who use email for other then gossip mills can actually

participate in conversations that can be enjoyed by all.

And my little piece that I sent to the list on how to give head is more

beat then fighting over whose a damn liar and who should be sued.

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:27:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Lisa M. Rabey wrote:

>

> And my little piece that I sent to the list on how to give head is more

> beat then fighting over whose a damn liar and who should be sued.

I believe this is finally something which can be called TRUTH.

david rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:29:46 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: pop quiz

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> what is the sound of one ego clapping?

or the sound of an ego with the clap?

a elf

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:35:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 May 1997 18:21:27 -0600 from

<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Derek's point is well taken. Let's all try to discuss our issues with civility

, at least publicly. If you want to insult someone personally, take it off the

list.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 19:57:35 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> beat-L members

> dont you think taht the absurdity of the swallow & etc posts that can be

> found lately may be a direct respose to some of the heated nature of the

> other posts? one group of authors is fighting & insulting & getting very

> heated & upset... the other part is simply joking around & relaxing (in my

> opinion) until the conversations relax.

> so much heat around these parts

> makes it a little hard to want to be part of the soup

> yrs

> derek

Derek,

That's my take. The estate posts are producing all heat and no light. I

love a good fight, but this one drones on forever. The worst period of

the list in my 1 1/2 years. The RW war is nothing along side this one.

Personally I would rather talk about blowjobs

Pull my daisy, or whatever's handy

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:07:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

Phil,

Thanks for the tip-off about the Time Magazine article. Do you know

what the date of the issue was? Also, someone else mentioned articles that

appeared in Life magazine during the fifties about the Beats. If that person

recognizes themselves I'd like a tip to the date/writer of the article.

Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

by Loudon Wainwright II.

Many thanks.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:29:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Beat List T-Shirt Update

Dear Beat-L members:

I spoke with S. Clay Wilson today..the artwork for our t-shirt will be ready

next week.

I will post the artwork for you to check out on our new Water Row Books web

site

(still under construction) but I'll give you all the temporary address when I

get the artwork up.

The shirt should be ready to ship within the month so ordering information,

price, etc. will be posted on the list as well...

If you are new to the list and want to know more about the Beat-L Tshirt

designed by Subterranean artist, S. Clay Wilson, Here's the story:

Back just before Easter 1997, a discussion came up on the Beat-L about the

famous 1987 "River City Reunion" that took place in Lawrence,Kansas. Beat

writers, musicians, artists and others came to the Univ of Kansas, Lawrence

to

rap, play, perform and discuss culture in America...S. Clay Wilson designed a

great logo for the event that was used on posters, programs, and Tshirts.

Meanwhile, S. Clay Wilson was lurking on the Beat-L, an Easter weekend guest

of Beat/Hippie/Radical Conservative Poet Charlie Plymell, who, with wife,

Pam, runs

Cherry Valley Editions, tres cool avant-garde publishing company in upstate

NY.

Wilson got on the list and said hello....I suggested that Wilson draw a Beat

ListT-shirt for us...I offered on behalf of Water Row Books as sponsor to put

up the bread to get the shirt done and then sell them to Beat-L members at

cost...So here's where we are now - the artwork will be finished in a few

days hopefully and I'll let everyone know the cost and other details. The

shirt can be checked out then at the new Water Row Books web site (address to

follow) -

By the way, S. Clay Wilson found a box of original River City Reunion posters

and programs from the 1987 event. He signed them all and sent them to me here

at Water Row. The poster is printed on a nice heavy stock and is approx. 16"

x 20" -

a perfect size to frame. It features Wilson's great logo of a cowpoke-type

guy dancing around with another Beat poet-type who looks alot like Allen

Ginsberg. Great colorful

Wilson artwork. The poster also lists the dates for the event as well as the

participants that included Burroughs, Ginsberg, Robert Frank, Jim Carroll,

Husker Du, many many more....

The River City Reunion program also features the logo in full color plus the

detailed

schedule of events, bios of each participant, event location, etc. Wilson

also signed each program front cover...

For the very small price of $25.00, you can get a set of one signed poster

and one signed program. If you only want the poster or program by itself, the

price is $15.00 for the one item. The programs are in near mint condition and

the posters are in very fine condition. The posters have a little corner wear

or wrinkling from age (ten years old already!), For Beat-L members, I'll pay

the shipping.

MC/Visa accepted. Satisfaction guaranteed. Both posters and programs now in

stock...Offer good only while limited supply lasts....

Thanks -

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

Fax 508-229-0885

EMail Waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:51:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: the list

This is not to appease the forces to be but to appease you and me.... :)

(Provided courtesy of John Sampas, Literary Executor of the Estate of John

and Stella Kerouac and Phil Chaput who is not an employee of Mr. John

Sampas, just a friend) and my wife who let me stay on the computer this long

to type this long ass list... again :)

(a more complete list including dates of deposit will be published in The

Kerouac Quarterly (Vol. I, No. 2) available soon)

Here goes....

Maggie Cassidy (unused section), 45-page hoograph ms.

The Happy Truth 10-page holograph ms.: plus Ecstacy of Life and Death, 2

1/2-page holograph ms.; plus The Blessedness Surely to be Believed, 7-page

holograph ms. -- together in 1 notebook.

Buddha Tells Us or Wake Up. 50 - page holograph ms.; plus The Essential

Mind. 81-page holograph ms. -- together in 1 notebook.

Some of the Dharma. 1332-page holograph ms. in 11 notebooks; plus 385-page

typescript.

5 JK letters: 2 page letter to his mother, dated March 1943; 1-page TLS to

Sebastian Sampas, dated 1943; 1-page TLS (with holograph postscript) to his

sister, Nin, dated 1947; 2-page TLS (with holograph notes to Tal, Mr. Win,

Miss James et al, dated August 1952; 2-page letter to the editors of Time

magazine, dated 1961.

Moore of Myself. A Sonnet. 2-page holograph ms. dated 1943.

Passing Through. 615 page holograph ms. in 10 notebooks.

Mexico City Blues. 451-page holograph ms. in 5 notebooks; plus 121-page

typescript. Included in the notebooks are the following:

151 pages of material for Tristessa, the complete first book.

13-page fragment entitled "Statue of Christ" from Lonesome Traveler.

1-page letter to J.C. Holmes.

1-page prose note.

1/2-page prose note entitled "Hunan Road Sacrifice."

2-page intro. to mexico City Blues differing from the published

version.

3 1/2 page section from Book of Dreams.

1-page section from Book of Dreams.

1-page essay entitled, "Statue of saint Joseph."

1-page work on Dharma.

1-page section from Some of the Dharma.

16-page essay entitled, "Break on the Railroad."

1-page note on Buddhism.

5-page essay on the "Practice of Dhyana."

1-page essay on the Tao.

"More Mexico City Blues, Washington DC Blues. Poems 1957." Original

notebook, approx. 55 pages.

"Poems All Sizes..." manuscript notebook, approx. 93 pages.

"San Francisco Blues." 73-page typescript.

Sebastian Sampas to Jack Kerouac. 12 ALS, 60 pages (including 1page of

typescript), dated 1940 to 1941.

Gabrielle Kerouac to JK. 33 ALS, 125 pages (dated 1942 - '43 in Kerouac's hand).

Mary Carney to JK. 17 ALS, 53 pages, no date (3 letters are dated 1954 in

Keoruac's hand). One letter with a pencil notation by Kerouac.

JK. 1-page pencil drawing in form of a letter.

(I will abbreviate from hereon until noted later)

10 letters from JK to Sebastian Sampas.

11 postcards from JK to S. Sampas

16 letters from Jack kerouac to Stella Sampas

17 postcards from JK to Stella Sampas

(here is complete listing as indicated to me)

Book of Dreams 1955-page holograph in 11 notebooks (plus 2 loose pages)

Notes for Dr.Sax, On the Road, The History of Bop; plus Maggie Cassidy,

approx. 250-page holograph manuscript. -- together in 4 notebooks.

"Benzedrine Vision. Mexico City 1952, Mexico Thieves Markey. Memoirs of a

Bebopper." 84-page holograph ms. in 1 notebook.

Tics. 50 page holograph ms. in 1 notebook.

Beat Generation. A Play. Acts I and II. 146-page holograph ms. in 1

notebook; plus 5-page typescript.

Book of Sketches. Approx. 1200-page holograph ms. in 15 notebooks.

Satori In Paris. 300-page holograph ms. in 3 spiral notebooks; plus 5

working notebooks (1961-1965)containing approx. 430 pages of holgraph ms.

(abbreviated here from list)

8 misc. items of Kerouac material (letters to friends, a poem, notes a

"dialogue between three friends")

16 different items of misc. material related to Jack (letters from Gabrielle

to stella, letters from Helen Mansfield to Mrs. Sampas, Sebastian Sampas

letters to Kerouac etc.)

Now, keep in mind, all the smaller items when explained in detail takes up

to 8-pages. More deposits to the Berg collection are forthcoming. This list

is evidence that the estate selling items off piecemeal are unsubstantiated

rumors. Those items sold lend no significance to Kerouac scholarship. All of

the detractors of the Kerouac Estate, if they are man enough with integrity

should apologize to John Sampas for making such unfounded claims. I hope

this list helps.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:39:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

RACE --- wrote:

> MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

> >

> > Why did Mr. Sampas cross the road?

>

> let's see ....... hmm...

>

> to recruit another prospective conspirator?????

>

> to catch a prospective buyer?????

>

> to negotiate with the NYPL?????

>

> because it wasn't there ?????

Yo, Race,

I finally made it here. But the first two posts are about the estate

and yours about Sampras. Please back channel me and let me know what is

up. Can I ask you about the Celtics here? ;-)

Peace,

Bentz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:44:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

>

> beat-L members

> dont you think taht the absurdity of the swallow & etc posts that can be

> found lately may be a direct respose to some of the heated nature of the

> other posts? one group of authors is fighting & insulting & getting very

> heated & upset... the other part is simply joking around & relaxing (in my

> opinion) until the conversations relax.

> so much heat around these parts

> makes it a little hard to want to be part of the soup

> yrs

> derek

oh of course your right, but i didn't understand and took the

directions to heart and now have my own beat following.

patricia, whoes credentials stand up

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:48:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Wow!

Like man, wow! I just subscribed and almost all the first posts I

receive, except the tee shirt post, thanks for that one, are about

hostility over what? Is there a place that archives these posts so that

I can catch up on this.

What about a thread?

Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats? I see a "line" from

Thoreau (sp) vs Emerson; Wolfe vs ????, Kerouac vs Vidal, Dylan vs

anyone, etc. There seems to be a thread that runs through "beat" side

of literature that is inherited into and by working class poets. Has

anyone studied or considered who are its predecessors. Like Gertrude

Stein ? the Bohemians? I am just curious.

Peace,

Bentz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:50:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: MEMORY BABE

MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

> ...to sell another (single) Kerouac item!

I wish I wasn't so curious, but what is all this about?

Peace,

Bentz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:21:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

>I am ashamed to say that this list has deterioted to nothing but a showing

>of whose has a bigger ego, and for that alone, all those involved should be

>ashamed.

>>--

>

>Lisa M. Rabey

>Internet and Computer Consultant

>San Francisco, California

>http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

>**************************************

>General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

>

>

Lisa, May 22, 1997

I appreciate what all of you are saying, but it is not your

professionalism that is under attack here--it is mine.

I spend six years working my ass off to write what William S.

Burroughs called "the best of the many books about Jack Kerouac's life and

work," and I am accused of running around the country making xeroxes of

Kerouac letters so I can sell them for "cold, hard cash."

That stuff is pretty hard to take. And the people who are making

those accusations know full well how bogus they are. Nor have they spent

the years writing, teaching, and lecturing about Kerouac, as I have (Mr.

Anstee has self-published a few pieces and given a talk or two; Mr. Chaput

has done none of the above).

They have deliberately muddied the water, so that the real

discussion of preserving Jack Kerouac's literary archive would get off

point, and they have done their best to see that it has never gotten back on

point. This is the dirtiest kind of play, and if we were on the basketball

court, these guys would all have been thrown out on technical fouls two

weeks ago.

Unfortunately, we don't have any trained literary refs around here.

Cimino has tried, but they've elbowed and head-butted him to helplessness too.

I expect the dirty play to continue, but I'm agreeing to back off,

since that's what the majority appears to want.

The only bad taste I have left is that the other guys have

"won"--they got what they wanted, which was to kill an honest discussion of

what should be done with Jack Kerouac's papers. They have never allowed

such a discussion to take place, ANYWHERE. When Jan Kerouac asked for five

minutes to talk about it at NYU, the year before she died, they dragged her

out with police.

They can't use police here, just threats of lawsuits and all this

other shit. So once again truth is the first casualty.

Peace everyone, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:02:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: QUESTIONS?

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> RACE --- wrote:

>

> > MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

> > >

> > > Why did Mr. Sampas cross the road?

> >

> > let's see ....... hmm...

> >

> > to recruit another prospective conspirator?????

> >

> > to catch a prospective buyer?????

> >

> > to negotiate with the NYPL?????

> >

> > because it wasn't there ?????

>

> Yo, Race,

>

> I finally made it here. But the first two posts are about the estate

> and yours about Sampras. Please back channel me and let me know what is

> up. Can I ask you about the Celtics here? ;-)

>

> Peace,

>

> Bentz

Howdy and welcome.

i can try and dig around and send you some "choice" excerpts from the

GREAT ESTATE KONTROVERSY backchannel but it could be next week and if i

forget remind me ... imagine a court battle over Bill Russell's old

shoes and Auerbach's cigar butts with a literary flair and you'll have

the gist of it.

we better not talk to much Celtics over here. i have most of that list

on the auto-delete function right now until after draft date only you

and Dorine P. don't get nuked right now.

otherwise my suggestion would be to lurk a bit and if something seems

especially incomprehensible feel free to backchannel me.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:58:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat List T-Shirt Update

Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

>

> Dear Beat-L members:

>

> I spoke with S. Clay Wilson today..the artwork for our t-shirt will be ready

> next week.

> I will post the artwork for you to check out on our new Water Row Books web

> site

> (still under construction) but I'll give you all the temporary address when I

> get the artwork up.

>

> The shirt should be ready to ship within the month so ordering information,

> price, etc. will be posted on the list as well...

>

> If you are new to the list and want to know more about the Beat-L Tshirt

> designed by Subterranean artist, S. Clay Wilson, Here's the story:

>

> Back just before Easter 1997, a discussion came up on the Beat-L about the

> famous 1987 "River City Reunion" that took place in Lawrence,Kansas. Beat

> writers, musicians, artists and others came to the Univ of Kansas, Lawrence

> to

> rap, play, perform and discuss culture in America...S. Clay Wilson designed a

> great logo for the event that was used on posters, programs, and Tshirts.

>

> Meanwhile, S. Clay Wilson was lurking on the Beat-L, an Easter weekend guest

> of Beat/Hippie/Radical Conservative Poet Charlie Plymell, who, with wife,

> Pam, runs

> Cherry Valley Editions, tres cool avant-garde publishing company in upstate

> NY.

> Wilson got on the list and said hello....I suggested that Wilson draw a Beat

> ListT-shirt for us...I offered on behalf of Water Row Books as sponsor to put

> up the bread to get the shirt done and then sell them to Beat-L members at

> cost...So here's where we are now - the artwork will be finished in a few

> days hopefully and I'll let everyone know the cost and other details. The

> shirt can be checked out then at the new Water Row Books web site (address to

> follow) -

>

> By the way, S. Clay Wilson found a box of original River City Reunion posters

> and programs from the 1987 event. He signed them all and sent them to me here

> at Water Row. The poster is printed on a nice heavy stock and is approx. 16"

> x 20" -

> a perfect size to frame. It features Wilson's great logo of a cowpoke-type

> guy dancing around with another Beat poet-type who looks alot like Allen

> Ginsberg. Great colorful

> Wilson artwork. The poster also lists the dates for the event as well as the

> participants that included Burroughs, Ginsberg, Robert Frank, Jim Carroll,

> Husker Du, many many more....

>

> The River City Reunion program also features the logo in full color plus the

> detailed

> schedule of events, bios of each participant, event location, etc. Wilson

> also signed each program front cover...

>

> For the very small price of $25.00, you can get a set of one signed poster

> and one signed program. If you only want the poster or program by itself, the

> price is $15.00 for the one item. The programs are in near mint condition and

> the posters are in very fine condition. The posters have a little corner wear

> or wrinkling from age (ten years old already!), For Beat-L members, I'll pay

> the shipping.

> MC/Visa accepted. Satisfaction guaranteed. Both posters and programs now in

> stock...Offer good only while limited supply lasts....

>

> Thanks -

>

> Jeffrey Weinberg

> Water Row Books

> PO Box 438

> Sudbury MA 01776

> Tel 508-485-8515

> Fax 508-229-0885

> EMail Waterrow@aol.com

oooh gooood

thanks jeff, i appreciate you. I think the cowboy look for burroughs

was because the river city reunion was (i believe)the same year wsb took

to wearing jeans rather than east coast slacks all the time. they looked

good on him too. very kansan

p

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:08:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

>

>Ummm..Im sorry, but I don't fill over 200+ subscribers a day with probably

>over 100k of crap about whose a liar, whose fucking who, who is screwed

>who, and who believed who about what where and when. Thats great that you

>liek to read the posts, but unfortunately, the majority of the list seems

>to disagree with you and there has been many polite and unpolite requests

>to move all estate battles to another list (ie start your own) so that the

>rest of us who use email for other then gossip mills can actually

>participate in conversations that can be enjoyed by all.

Given that there are 200 people on the list (according to your post) and

there have been a few complaints about "the fight", i cannot see how you

can know a majority of the list agrees.

But, aside from this claim, I feel sad at this attitude.

Your statement above is the same as those who banned howl so many years ago.

Just cause you and a majority are offended by something you want to ban it.

The cry of the censors througout history.

best wishes to you,

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:14:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: the list

>

>Now, keep in mind, all the smaller items when explained in detail takes up

>to 8-pages. More deposits to the Berg collection are forthcoming. This list

>is evidence that the estate selling items off piecemeal are unsubstantiated

>rumors. Those items sold lend no significance to Kerouac scholarship. All of

>the detractors of the Kerouac Estate, if they are man enough with integrity

>should apologize to John Sampas for making such unfounded claims. I hope

>this list helps.

>

Dear Paul, May 22, 1997

I owe no one an apology. This is essentially the same list that

librarian Rodney Phillips gave me 3 years ago. He told me he couldn't

remember any of it coming directly from Mr. Sampas. If that was an error,

then blame Mr. Phillips. I met with him, I queried him, I did my best to

learn the truth.

Almost nothing has been added since then. Why should I believe your

(or Mr. Sampas's) assurance that "more deposits are forthcoming"? What? A

few more xeroxes?

Where are the manuscripts of ON THE ROAD, DR. SAX, THE

SUBTERRANEANS, VISIONS OF CODY, VISIONS OF GERARD, THE DHARMA BUMS, VANITY

OF DULUOZ, the rest of DESOLATION ANGELS, most of LONESOME TRAVELLER, and so

many more published and unpublished (THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, AND THE HIPPOS

WERE BOILED IN THEIR TANKS!, SECRET MULLINGS ABOUT BILL, etc. etc.) Where

are the tapes, and photos, and books from Kerouac's library? Where are the

twenty years of daily breast pocket notebooks?

Where is Kerouac's complete file of correspondence, with all the

greats, Ferlinghetti, McClure, and hundreds of other major writers he

corresponded with?

Where are the galleys and multiple typed drafts of the different books?

And stop saying "unsubstantiated rumors" of Sampas selling off

pieces of the archive. A dozen different dealers and collectors have

testified to buying stuff, and I've held plenty of pieces in my own hands.

Ann Charters bought some pieces for herself. Jeffrey Weinberg has attested

to the hundreds of items he sold off. He's occasionally disputed the price

things sold for, or whether a drawing was art versus just a sketch. He's

never said he wasn't Sampas's main dealer from 1991-1993, and that he didn't

issue catalogues of items from the Kerouac archive, and that he didn't have

plenty of buyers..

I appreciate the fact that Mr. Sampas is helping you with your new

magazine, KEROUAC QUARTERLY, but the biggest service you could do for

Kerouac scholarship right now is to ask:

WHEN IS MR. SAMPAS REALLY GOING TO PUT THE KEROUAC ARCHIVE ON

DEPOSIT IN A LIBRARY? THE FULL ARCHIVE?

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:34:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >I am ashamed to say that this list has deterioted to nothing but a

> showing

> >of whose has a bigger ego, and for that alone, all those involved

> should be

> >ashamed.

> >>--

> >

> >Lisa M. Rabey

> >Internet and Computer Consultant

> >San Francisco, California

> >http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

> >**************************************

> >General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

> >

> >

> Lisa, May 22, 1997

>

> I appreciate what all of you are saying, but it is not your

> professionalism that is under attack here--it is mine.

> I spend six years working my ass off to write what William S.

> Burroughs called "the best of the many books about Jack Kerouac's life

> and

> work," and I am accused of running around the country making xeroxes

> of

> Kerouac letters so I can sell them for "cold, hard cash."

<snip>My favorite biography is Memory Babe by this poster. The love and

care that went into the book are very evident. But I am picking up here

withing these very few hours on the list that Mr. Nicosia has been

accused of something that he says is not true. From all I know of him,

and I have spoken with him on the telephone, but that has nothing to do

with this comment, he has done a very good and appreciated work.

Somewhere recently I ran into a site on the internet/www that had an

article about Jan Kerouac, the Sampras fellow and the scene where Jan

was arrested while Ginsburg tended to embarass himself by failing to aid

his Goddaughter. I suppose now I am getting to understand the gest of

this thread.

As an attorney, I would like to remind anyone who posts accusations

against another, like those that Nicosia is selling Kerouac's letters,

that if those remarks are not true, they can be liable for slander.

Further, if it interfers with his business, they may be liable for that

interferance as well. Therefore, I would want anyone making such

accusations to remember that just because you are sitting behind a

computer teminal, doesn't mean you can say anything you want to say.

And if you do it for ulterior motives, you may regret the day you said

it, because there are lots of lawyers who don't have anything better to

do than to sue you!!! :-)

Mr. Nicosia has published a great work and since he apparantly posts to

this list, I for one want to hear what he has to say. If on the other

hand, there is evidence that he is in this only to make a quick buck off

Jack Kerouac, then, I would like to know about that.

A question that I have is are these persons, Anstee and Chaput in any

way connected with Samprass? If so, their comments would be highly

suspect. Any man who would have Kerouac's daughter arrested and dragged

out of a public meeting instead of giving her the microphone does not

seem right to me.

I think we all have a great interest in the discussion of Kerouac's life

work and his papers. Noone should be allowed to chill that.

Hey, Mr. Nicosia, give me a call, I can't advertise here, but uhhh, you

know, I am a lawyer.

> They have deliberately muddied the water, so that the real

> discussion of preserving Jack Kerouac's literary archive would get off

>

> point, and they have done their best to see that it has never gotten

> back on

> point. <snip basketball>

> The only bad taste I have left is that the other guys have

> "won"--they got what they wanted, which was to kill an honest

> discussion of

> what should be done with Jack Kerouac's papers. They have never

> allowed

> such a discussion to take place, ANYWHERE. When Jan Kerouac asked for

> five

> minutes to talk about it at NYU, the year before she died, they

> dragged her

> out with police.

Well, I for one would like to hear about Kerouac's papers and why they

are not accessible. What I understand is that Sampress has made threats

to sue the University if they let people see the papers. If so, then I

have another reason to dislike Sampress from the get go. But, I am

asking because I would like to know. Does someone besides Mr. Nicosia

know about this. Has it chilled the discussion. If so, why would a

column about beats be intimidated? Stange indeed.

> They can't use police here, just threats of lawsuits and all

> this

> other shit. So once again truth is the first casualty.

It doesn't have to be. I sure would like to know more about this. Man,

I love Jack Kerouac's work. That is why I have signed onto the list.

As you all can see, I don't have enough sense to keep my nose out of

someone else's business.

> Peace everyone, Gerry Nicosia

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:44:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

At 11:07 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Phil,

>

> Thanks for the tip-off about the Time Magazine article. Do you know

>what the date of the issue was? Also, someone else mentioned articles that

>appeared in Life magazine during the fifties about the Beats. If that person

>recognizes themselves I'd like a tip to the date/writer of the article.

>Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

>by Loudon Wainwright II.

>

> Many thanks.

>

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>All it said was spring 97 but I'm sure it's still on the shelf at the big

bookstores like B and N. I was checking it out at the doctors office. I want

to pick one up myself for my archive(oops did I say that word) sorry. My 15

year old son was quite impressed because he's always calling me a Kerowacko

and it was like "See I told you so." Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:04:52 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Last Gasp

Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

>

> Thanks to a BEAT-L post a few weeks back, I snail mailed Last Gasp for a

> catalog. I received my fantastic Spring 1997 Last Gasp catalog yesterday.

> In it, they list their web site, www.lastgasp.com

> Here they have a large online catalog with S. Clay Wilson, R Crumb, 13

> ZAP Comix reprints for $2.95 each, Tim Leary comics, a huge selection of

> books and comics, etc etc etc. complete with a running slide show

> highlighting their wares. I want to share this fantastic web site with

> BEAT-L readers!

Michael

Could you reprint the URL on this one. Maybe I was instantly deleting

Estate posts and missed something interesting

James

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:58:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: For R. Bentz Kirby

Mr. Kirby,

I'm also relatively new to this list. The estate controversy involves

Kerouac, a potentially forged will, the whereabouts and alleged sales of

Kerouac's letters and manuscripts, who possesses the legal right to have

said documents and any legal tender generated from their sale, who is right

and who is wrong, who has evidence and who doesn't, the value of xeroxes,

the wisdom of participants discussing a pending legal matter in a public

forum and a small South-American tribe named "Sicofitall". I'm sure the

participants will fill you in further. I dread that they will use this

forum. Anyway, welcome.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:15:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

>As an attorney, I would like to remind anyone who posts accusations

>against another, like those that Nicosia is selling Kerouac's letters,

>that if those remarks are not true, they can be liable for slander.

HOW ABOUT THE SAMPASES SELLING THE ESTATE "PIECEMEAL"..IS THAT NOT SLANDER?

>Further, if it interfers with his business, they may be liable for that

>interferance as well. Therefore, I would want anyone making such

>accusations to remember that just because you are sitting behind a

>computer teminal, doesn't mean you can say anything you want to say.

>And if you do it for ulterior motives, you may regret the day you said

>it, because there are lots of lawyers who don't have anything better to

>do than to sue you!!! :-)

>

>Mr. Nicosia has published a great work and since he apparantly posts to

>this list, I for one want to hear what he has to say.

******DONT WORRY YOU WILL.....

If on the other

>hand, there is evidence that he is in this only to make a quick buck off

>Jack Kerouac, then, I would like to know about that.

>

>A question that I have is are these persons, Anstee and Chaput in any

>way connected with Samprass? If so, their comments would be highly

>suspect.

*****WHY? CAN HE NOT HAVE FRIENDS WHO STICK UP FOR HIM?

Any man who would have Kerouac's daughter arrested and dragged

>out of a public meeting instead of giving her the microphone does not

>seem right to me.

THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR EITHER...

>

>I think we all have a great interest in the discussion of Kerouac's life

>work and his papers. Noone should be allowed to chill that.

>

>Hey, Mr. Nicosia, give me a call, I can't advertise here, but uhhh, you

>know, I am a lawyer.

>

>

>Well, I for one would like to hear about Kerouac's papers and why they

>are not accessible. What I understand is that Sampress

****IT IS "SAMPAS"...GET THE SPELLING AS WELL AS THE FACTS STARIGHT BEFORE

YOU TAKE SIDES...

has made threats

>to sue the University if they let people see the papers. If so, then I

>have another reason to dislike Sampress from the get go.

I THINK YOU REALLY NEED TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

But, I am

>asking because I would like to know. Does someone besides Mr. Nicosia

>know about this. Has it chilled the discussion. If so, why would a

>column about beats be intimidated? Stange indeed.

>

>> They can't use police here, just threats of lawsuits and all

>> this

>> other shit. So once again truth is the first casualty.

>AND SO MY WORDS WILL BE A TESTAMENT TO THAT AS YOU WILL SEE..

>It doesn't have to be. I sure would like to know more about this. Man,

>I love Jack Kerouac's work. That is why I have signed onto the list.

>As you all can see, I don't have enough sense to keep my nose out of

>someone else's business.

>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:01:56 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat List T-Shirt Update

Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

>

> Dear Beat-L members:

>

> I spoke with S. Clay Wilson today..the artwork for our t-shirt will be ready

> next week.

> I will post the artwork for you to check out on our new Water Row Books web

> site

Jeffery-

Looking forward to the shirt, it brings back calmer times.

Who knows, if you had started this later S. Clay would have had to do

John Sampas as Capt. Pissgums and Gerry Nicosia as Ruby the Dyke.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:17:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: the list

> Where are the manuscripts of ON THE ROAD (on deposit)

, DR. SAX (

, THE

>SUBTERRANEANS, VISIONS OF CODY, VISIONS OF GERARD, THE DHARMA BUMS, VANITY

>OF DULUOZ,

the rest of DESOLATION ANGELS (Passing Through is on the list, 615-pages worth

) most of LONESOME TRAVELLER, and so

>many more published and unpublished

(THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, AND THE HIPPOS

>WERE BOILED IN THEIR TANKS!, SECRET MULLINGS ABOUT BILL, etc. etc.)

********JUVENALIA NOVELS WILL BE PUBLISHED IN THE FUTURE

Where

>are the tapes, and photos, and books from Kerouac's library? Where are the

>twenty years of daily breast pocket notebooks?

********NOTEBOOKS ARE DUE TO BE PUBLISHED LATER

> Where is Kerouac's complete file of correspondence, with all the

>greats, Ferlinghetti, McClure, and hundreds of other major writers he

>corresponded with? RETAINED FOR SELECTED LETTERS II

> Where are the galleys and multiple typed drafts of the different books?

> ***********Who cares right now? They will get there in time....

I appreciate the fact that Mr. Sampas is helping you with your new

>magazine, KEROUAC QUARTERLY, ( ********my inquiry and his help is for the

fans not my newsletter)

but the biggest service you could do for

>Kerouac scholarship right now is to ask:

> WHEN IS MR. SAMPAS REALLY GOING TO PUT THE KEROUAC ARCHIVE ON

>DEPOSIT IN A LIBRARY? Whe he feels like it nothing more or nothing

less...but it is NOT being sold off piecemeal like Joan Haverty's arrest

warrant to Jack...

WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT...NOT AT YOUR BIDDING YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT

>

>SOMEHOW I KNEW THAT YOU WOULD STILL CONTEST THIS..CONSIDER THIS, YOUR

RAVINGS ARE PROBABLY HOLDING UP THE PUBLICATION OF MANY UNPUBLISHED ITEMS.

IF MR. SAMPAS COULD CONCENTRATE ON PUBLICATION INSTEAD OF LITIGATION IT

WOULD HAPPEN A LOT SOONER. TRUST ME. I can call John Sampas a friend of mine

because to me...he seems an honest and fair man.He is receptive to

publications about Kerouac (like mine) and is always interested in what the

fans of Kerouac want. He is not hoarding up anything for himself. If you

think that all this stuff you claim is true and that he is the mastermind of

it all then you hardly even know who John Sampas is. when will there be

enough in the archives? I think it would be best to conclude these postings

with the realization that the real fans of Kerouac have a BIG treat for them

in store in September. Some of the Dharma is a quality publication. just

think...it does not have to come out at all. Be thankful for what you got

and not for what you don't have.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:09:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: What is your agenda Pam?

****IT IS "SAMPAS"...GET THE SPELLING AS WELL AS THE FACTS STARIGHT

BEFORE

YOU TAKE SIDES...

Well, I never said I was a scholar, only a lawyer. My question is

whether or not someone is trying to quelch discussions with false

accusations. If so, it doesn't matter to me if it is Nicosia, Sampas,

Sapras or Pampras. I am asking a question.

You seem to have an opinion and you certainly know more about the list

than I do, but, I will catch up.

I will spell and mispell as I please or out of ignorance. Spulling is

overrated anyway.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:13:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Man, is there a buzz going on in here or what?

HOW ABOUT THE SAMPASES SELLING THE ESTATE "PIECEMEAL"..IS THAT NOT

SLANDER?

If they have not done this, it might be. My question was, what is this

all about? I do not bring any defined ideas to the table. And I am

entitled to ask. Have they sold off portions of the estate? Do you

know? Just tell me what you know, back channel is fine.

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:25:27 -0700

Reply-To: goyozura@earthlink.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gregory Zura <goyozura@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: please remove me

REMOVE BEAT-L Gregory Zura

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:46:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Clarify this situation

Obviously this thing is hotter than I expected. I want to make it clear

to everyone, I have spoken, once on the phone with Mr. Nicosia. As a

lawyer I am interested in his story, which I picked up from a search on

beats on a web search engine. I have requested that members back

channel me with information on this dispute.

I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were to

ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post this

to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas with

me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia, but

will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 01:52:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the list

Paul,

Thanks for posting this list of items. I mean that.

A few honest questions:

1). Are all of these items originals? I know what a holograph is and I know

what a typescript is so I am asuming they're are originals. Is that corret?

2). Are all the letters listed originals?

3). Are the notebooks listed Jack's breast pocket notebooks?

4). Are any of these items photocopies or other reproductions?

5). Have these items been "Sold", "Donated", "Loaned" or are they "On

Deposit"?

Also, Paul, I'd be careful about insinuating that anyone who is on the Beat-L

who may not agree with you is not a *real* fan of Kerouac. If we weren't

*all* real fans of Kerouac's we wouldn't be here to begin with and we

certainly woudn't be so passionate about this issue.

Secondly, while this list you'll be publishing in the KQ is valuable and

important, it is *not* evidence that accusations of selling off items

piecemeal are unsubstantiated. As a matter of fact a number of people on

the Beat-L are known to have been involved in various transactions, so

obviously items were bought and sold.

Lastly, you say, "Be thankful for what you got and not for what you don't

have". What a curious thing to say. I would submit to everyone that a valid

argument could be made that the *only* reason these items on your list are

being properly addressed is because Gerry Nicosia and Jan Kerouac made such a

public spectacle that John Sampas had no choice in this. He had to do

something to show he's doing the right thing.

I do appreciate your efforts to shine light on the topic, Paul. I may not

agree with some of your conclusions, but I'm glad you're saying what you

know. I respect that.

Regards,

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:33:09 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

At 12:58 PM 5/21/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>> General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

>Sure! No problem ;)

>

>HOW TO SUCK COCK

This is not why I subscribe,

still it's a fertile topic for sanguine humor

though I wonder, you hate them like that?

or do you unlike them unlike that?

And "forwarding" this from someone else

raises concerns.....we want your angle on this

though it's only mental.

Respectully,

just another swingin' little guy who wants to

know what you know, without being invasive

or raising your hackles, kitty!

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 03:44:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

Derek, Marie, Lisa, et al...

I agree a lot of this is distasteful. I agree too much of it is juvenile.

But it is serving a very large purpose.

Look at who does *nothing* but shout and moan. The very same people who

refuse to answer honest questions. These people have raised the level of

rhetoric time and time again because they have no legitimate argument to

make. Now Chaput is calling for a truce. Why? Because he knows he's

beaten. Tracy gave him a gift by asking if he was really serious about his

"Gerry is a thief because he xeroxed Jack's letters" post which allowed him

to come back with "it was a joke".

Is everybody out there blind to all this? I hate the namecalling too, but

that's not what this is about. This is about JACK KEROUAC'S ARCHIVES. What

have we *ever* discussed that is more important than that?

This is an issue that has to be discussed. And private emails won't cut it.

I agree everyone should tone down the namecalling and shouting, but we've

got to keep talking about it on the Beat-L. It's the public forum that

exposes the truth and exposes motivations.

If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

will have helped silence the truth.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:17:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: the knights who say, all right allready!

In-Reply-To: <199705222148.OAA12515@norway.it.earthlink.net>

meester nicosia wrote:

"The trouble is, Mr. Chaput can keep posting these lies faster than I

can answer them, since I am also answering Anstee and the other cheap-shot

artists at the same time"

a solution: just cc: mr chaput and mr anstee and who and what ever, and go

off line with it.

and for motivation to have some respect for others on list/ by so doing,

the winner of this piss contest will recieve an all expenses paid visit to

the m.ppython 'argument clinic'

wearily

mc

.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:05:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

In-Reply-To: <v01510100afaa6a52df2c@[128.125.223.188]>

At 09:08 PM 5/22/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>

>>Ummm..Im sorry, but I don't fill over 200+ subscribers a day with probably

>>over 100k of crap about whose a liar, whose fucking who, who is screwed

>>who, and who believed who about what where and when. Thats great that you

>>liek to read the posts, but unfortunately, the majority of the list seems

>>to disagree with you and there has been many polite and unpolite requests

>>to move all estate battles to another list (ie start your own) so that the

>>rest of us who use email for other then gossip mills can actually

>>participate in conversations that can be enjoyed by all.

>

>Given that there are 200 people on the list (according to your post) and

>there have been a few complaints about "the fight", i cannot see how you

>can know a majority of the list agrees.

First off, its roughly 232 people that are on this list. If you are so

inclined to know how many here is, just email: majordomo@cunyvm.cuny.edu

body of text: who beat-l

Will tell you how many people are currently on the list. If the list is

done by listproc@cunyvm.cuny.edu, the commands will be different.

Now, I am "assuming" that you know nothing of how a list works. Let me give

a breif tutorial.

A list is generated to talk about something specific topic, such as this

one is generated about Beat Liteature/related topics. Generally, majority

of the people lurk, but there are those who are heavy contributors, such as

Patricia, Leon, Race--, Marie, James Stauffer (plus I know there are many

heavy contributors out there, im not slighting you out, im just naming

names i've seen recently). These people have made heavy contributation to

the list. There are others such as myself who lurk and make minimal

contribution and finally there are those who say nothing at all.

Now, when majority of the those who make a voice on this list and more or

less set the beat of the beat list. Doesn't mean they own the list per se,

but obviously they are here to discuss BEAT LITERATURE/related topics and

want to see that it continues. This also doesn't mean that others can't

contribute, but, "someone" has to take the lead in starting conversations,

because if someone doesn' the list will go dead because people are afraid

to say something. And I am always grateful to the input and information

about various and sundry things beat, because that is "Why" i am here, is

to learn more about a "subject" (for lack of a better word) that intrests

me wholly.

And seeing as 'majority' of those that contribute (as well as myself) feel

that this has gone way out of control, it can be safely said that its the

lists voice that does not want the 'saga' to continue. Its boring, its

backbiting and its worthless. Its become nothing but gossip treadmil of

insults, backbiting and immaturity.

>

>But, aside from this claim, I feel sad at this attitude.

Thats your opinion, which you are more then rightly entitled to have. Does

not mean I have to agree with you.

>

>Your statement above is the same as those who banned howl so many years ago.

You sir have just stepped out of bounds. You know nothing about me and my

comment nor anyones has NOTHING to do with censorship of anything. It has

to do with the bad taste and the bullshit this list has nothing to do with

literature or anything else. I prefer not to get close to a hundred

messages a day from ONE list about a subject that pretains nothing to the

list whatso ever. Its gone beyond simple matter of what happened to a full

out flame war, which, is poor netiquette.

>

>Just cause you and a majority are offended by something you want to ban it.

>The cry of the censors througout history.

>

Oh for christsakes, grow up. Your acting as immature and as childish as

those who were participating in the war. This is NOT about censorship, book

burning or anything else. Its about common sense and having MANNERS. I am

NOT the only one who feels this way, but I may be the most vocal.

and it is MY right to voice my opinion because if I don't agree with

something, I sure as hell am not going to sit back and let it just roll on

by thinking someone else will talk for me.

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:18:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <970523034455_-196546180@emout15.mail.aol.com>

At 03:44 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Derek, Marie, Lisa, et al...

>

>I agree a lot of this is distasteful. I agree too much of it is juvenile.

>But it is serving a very large purpose.

Im sorry, but I don't see how backbiting, name calling, getting lawyer in

the mix, and other going ons are 'helping' anything.

>

>Look at who does *nothing* but shout and moan. The very same people who

>refuse to answer honest questions. These people have raised the level of

>rhetoric time and time again because they have no legitimate argument to

>make. Now Chaput is calling for a truce. Why? Because he knows he's

>beaten. Tracy gave him a gift by asking if he was really serious about his

>"Gerry is a thief because he xeroxed Jack's letters" post which allowed him

>to come back with "it was a joke".

Im sorry, I thought Mr. Chaputs letter was one of the nicest ones this list

has generated in a long time. To stand back and say "hey, this is getting

ridiculas" and stepping away has nothing to do with being 'beaten' but

perhaps showing a bit more maturity then some of the people on here are

even wanting to show. This is NOT a list dedicated to will/probate what

have you of Jack's stuff, its about beat literature and until now, has been

quit nice filler for information about the people behind the books and the

books themselves as well as other related topics. Its now turned into a

National Enquirer via email. If I wanted to read trash, I would walk my ass

down to the store and buy a copy.

>

>Is everybody out there blind to all this? I hate the namecalling too, but

>that's not what this is about. This is about JACK KEROUAC'S ARCHIVES. What

>have we *ever* discussed that is more important than that?

Its gone beyond his archives. Its gone to being nothing but a whose got a

bigger dick then the other person.

Whats next? Pulling my pigtails to show that you like me?

>

>This is an issue that has to be discussed. And private emails won't cut it.

> I agree everyone should tone down the namecalling and shouting, but we've

>got to keep talking about it on the Beat-L. It's the public forum that

>exposes the truth and exposes motivations.

Again, I disagree with you. The issue has been beaten into the ground so

many goddamn times its worse then the old "men vs woman" stand by. And I

even suggested that you CREATE your own listserv so that those who were

intersted in this could subscribe and bitch to their hearts content.

Hell, email bryanf@samurai.com

He owns his own server and handles listservs for free.

Just tell him that you want one and he will set it up, hell even tell him I

sent ya!

>

>If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

>button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

>the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

>will have helped silence the truth.

You know what? (Forgiv me Patricia) Fuck off. This list generates way too

much mail. And I don't know about the rest of you out there, but *this*

account alone gets roughly 500 messages a day for personal email/business

and now *some* lists. I like this list. I have met many really nice people,

especially since I moved to the SF area, and if you think I am going to

quietly die, your are quite mistaken. And again, it has nothing to do with

his archieves, its a damn pissing contest/whose got the bigger balls and

the rest of the nonsense. Its pure bullshit. Get off your ego trip and

realize THAT truth.

</rant>

ttfn.

Lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:39:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <970523034455_-196546180@emout15.mail.aol.com>

hi jerry: you wrote:

If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

will have helped silence the truth.

@@@@@@@

and of course the JK archives are very important to me, especially since

seeing the JK tribute CD which contains beautiful art work by JK, which i

have never before seen and wonder how many other paintings there are.

however, i am not into pissing contests or namecalling or any of the other

behaviors which have been flaming the scene of late.

peace

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:50:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and Videotape

In a message dated 97-05-23 02:41:48 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

<< 7) What financial help has Attila Gyensis received for his DHARMA

BEAT magazine from Mr. Sampas, including Viking/Penguin advertisements that

Mr. Sampas arranged for Viking/Penguin to place there? How much has Mr.

Gyensis earned from working for Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, which we learned

is partly financed by Mr. Sampas? >>

Dear Gerry,

Can you please call up John Sampas so he can have Viking Books place another

advertizement in my next issue of DHARMA beat.

Thanks for your assistance in this matter.

Attila Gyenis

Editor, DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac Publication

PS - For the record, the financial assistance that I have received from Mr.

Sampas

amounts to a grand total of (let me check my calculator) $ 0, nada, zero,

nulla, nothing, zip.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:50:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

In a message dated 97-05-23 00:53:30 EDT, you write:

<< Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

by Loudon Wainwright II.>>

You may have heard of Loudon Wainwright the Third, his son, who is a great

musician. One of his lyrics:

I'm not afraid of flying

I'm just afraid of dying

I always say you can't fall off an airplane unless it crashes into a

mountain, in which case you can't fall off the mountain.

Farside cartoon: One pilot talking to the other pilot- " Hey, what is that

mountain goat doing up in this cloud bank?"

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:15:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: happy fried-day :pome/thought for the day

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970523021835.006da440@smtp.net-link.net>

from _the gift of tongues: 25 yrs of poetry from copper canyon press_

thomas centolella

joy

when it comes back to teach you

or you come back to learn

how half alive you've been,

how your ignorance and arrogance

have kept you deprived -

when it comes back to you

or you yourself return,

joy is simple, unassuming.

red tulips on their green stems.

early spring vegetables, bright in the pan.

the primary colors of a child's painting,

the first lessons, all over again.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:08:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: more thoughts to ponder:on debate vs mudslinging,

passion vs aggression

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970523021835.006da440@smtp.net-link.net>

quotation from _dharma art_ by chogyam trungpa

re: basic goodness

"what makes us blind? aggression makes us blind, so that we can't create

visual dharma. what makes us deaf? aggresion creates deafness, therefore

canot be produced. and because of aggression, dharma touch, dharma smell,

or dharma taste also cannot be produced. to use an american idiom, when we

are uptight, we are being aggressive. we are so disatisfied with ourselves,

our world, and our work that we begin to feel that everything is worthless.

or at the least, we feel that some things are worthless while other things

might have some worth. we pay more attention, and take things so

personally, that when any negativity occurs in our lives, we get aggressive

and uptight. on the whole, we could say quite confidently that aggression

makes us blind and deaf, so we cannot produce a work of art, let alone

anything else. we cannot run our lives. aggression makes us dumb mutes, so

we become like vegetables. aggression might produce a so-called

extraordinary work of art, but art produced in such a way pollutes the

world, rather than producing something refreshing and healthful.

the purpose of dharma art is to try to overcome aggression. according to

the buddhist vajrayana tradition, if your mind is preoccupied with

aggresion, you cannot function properly. on the other hand if your mind is

proccupied with passion, there are possibilities...

when you are in a passionate state you begin to like the world, and you

begin to be attracted to certain things--which is good. obviously,such

attraction also entails possessiveness and some sense of territoriality,

which comes later.But straightforward, pure passion--without ice, without

water, without soda--is good. it is dinkable it also food; you can live on

it. it's quite marvelous that we have passion, that we are not made purely

out of aggression. ..without pasion, nothing can be experienced; nothing

can be worked on. with aggression, we have bad feelings about ourselves:

either we feel tremendously righteous, that we are the only ones who are

right, or we feel pissed off that somebody is destroying us. that is

pathetic. it prevents us from seeing the basic goodness."

_______

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:05:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

At 03:44 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Derek, Marie, Lisa, et al...

>

>I agree a lot of this is distasteful. I agree too much of it is juvenile.

>But it is serving a very large purpose.

>

>Look at who does *nothing* but shout and moan. The very same people who

>refuse to answer honest questions. These people have raised the level of

>rhetoric time and time again because they have no legitimate argument to

>make. Now Chaput is calling for a truce.

****a man can't win can he? I think he is fed up with this that's all. I

wouldn't say he's "beaten."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:31:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat

In-Reply-To: <3385138E.C81E3784@scsn.net>

On Thu, 22 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats?

Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we

can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac

appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of

all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there

have been clearly influenced by the Beats?

For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers

emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas

Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next

in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth

60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose

of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good

measure.

What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought

Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he

wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what

he'd say about that.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:35:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

At 02:05 AM 5/23/97 -0700, Lisa Rabey wrote:

>This is NOT about censorship, book burning or anything else.

>Its about common sense and having MANNERS. I am

>NOT the only one who feels this way, but I may be the

>most vocal.

Hey Lisa et al,

I don't believe the issue is "censorship." Nobody wants

the estate/papers discussion to end (major part of Kerouac

history). I think the general plea has been for the

mean, sarcastic, cheap-shots to be done in private

e-mail. This isn't censorship, it is a request that people

stick to the facts and be respectful of one another. We

may not all agree on things, but were does meaness,

sarcasm and daggers get us, NOWHERE! Just back into

a stupid repetative cycle of bullshit. Just my feelings.

Flame away...

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:39:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: more thoughts to ponder:on debate vs mudslinging,

passion vs aggression

At 07:08 AM 5/23/97 -0400, Marie wrote:

> quotation from _dharma art_ by chogyam trungpa

Thanx Marie!!

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:43:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

At 05:39 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>hi jerry: you wrote:

>

>If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

>button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

>the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

>will have helped silence the truth.

>@@@@@@@

>and of course the JK archives are very important to me, especially since

>seeing the JK tribute CD which contains beautiful art work by JK, which i

>have never before seen and wonder how many other paintings there are.

>however, i am not into pissing contests or namecalling or any of the other

>behaviors which have been flaming the scene of late.

>peace

>mc

>

>Marie, there are many more beautiful paintings by Jack. I have seen some

and they are AMAZING I am not sure exactly how many but a good guess would

be over 40, John is talking about publishing that book as a large format

color book of paintings. That is one I am really looking forward to. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:42:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Self-Publishing Links

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afaad598f81e@[206.25.67.101]>

In "NetGuide" magazine, June 1997, p 46, they list three interesting urls

of self-publishing companies, etc. I visited all three sites and the

links work great.

First, www.electriciti.com/fmcnet/spp.htm dedicates

itself to listing, publishing, and selling strictly self-published titles.

Second, www.web-star.com/alternative/books.html welcomes you "to ABS Small and

Self-Publishers. Each book is vividly presented for your review...it's

almost like browsing in a bookstore. You can easily locate books by List

of Book Categories or you can Search our Site. Books may be ordered

On-Line, by FAX or by Mail. . ."

And third, www.digitalbooks.com "is one

of the Internet's first totally digital book publishing and distributing

companies. We plan to carry a wide collection of fiction, non-fiction,

technical, and hypermedia books; all of which will be available online and in

digital form . . .We accept payment via the First Virtual (TM) Internet

Payment System . . ."

Beat-L seems to have many readers who self-publish,

own small publishing houses, hope to self-publish, or otherwise

have interests in publishing, etc. I just want to share these "NetGuide"

reviewed links with BEAT-L readers...

By the way, "NetGuide" listed Levi Asher's "Literary Kicks" site in their

"Hot List," a page dedicated monthly to listing web sites "definitely

worth checking out," last winter. I believe they listed his site in

either the February or March, 1997 issue--I forget now. (I still have issue

if anyone wants that detail.) My point, though, remains, if

"Netguide" lists Levi's site as hot, then their opinions must be right on

the money! Becuz Levi maintains one of the most incredible sites on the web!

Period!

Thanks...

Michael L. Buchenroth

mike@buchenroth.com

www.buchenroth.com

To view

Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

go to

www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:02:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

Attila,

Thanks for the tip of the hat to Ol' Loudo the third. Loudon III is

a terrific songwriter. On his latest CD, "Grown Man" the song "Cobwebs"

actually deals with a Beat topic ...sort of...like, at least I think so....

first part of lyrics below.

His father wrote for Life and I can remember in the late sixties,

shortly after I'd become a fan of LW III, seeing LW II's name appearing over

an article in Life magazine - I think about Woodstock!

I missed the II / III deifference and thought "Wow!" this great

songwriter also writes for Life magazine!! Fooled again. His father was a

good lyricist actually. LW III's album "History" came out shortly after his

father's death and has a very good bluesy ballad that his father had written.

Honest everyone...there is Beat content here; read on....

Antoine

******************

"Cobwebs" starts off:

Well it stumbles and it falls off of almost every tongue

Give a listen and you will hear

It's lurkin' like a land mine

In almost every sentence

It's an assault to my mind's ear

Yeah it might have started back with Jack Kerouac

Probably more than likely it was Maynard G.Krebs

It's the four-letter word that used to mean "as if"

And the meaning's covered in cobwebs

Cobwebs

Used to be a preposition

Then it was a conjunction

Now it's used as an audible pause

Oh I hate it when I hear it

Especially when I say it.....

.......with several more uses of Kerouac's name in refrains.

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:12:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> On Thu, 22 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> > Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats?

>

> Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we

> can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac

> appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of

> all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there

> have been clearly influenced by the Beats?

>

> For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers

> emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas

> Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next

> in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth

> 60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose

> of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good

> measure.

>

> What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought

> Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he

> wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what

> he'd say about that.

as the resident illiterate on the Beat-L, i think that geneaology - both

backwards and forwards -- seems an interesting subject. If we consider

the influences of the Big 5 or Big 15 or whatever one would choose, it

would be interesting to see what authors present common threads between

them and which do not. i think that all of this information would be

fascinating and would help me in developing my MUST READ lists among

other things i'm sure.

in looking forward, i would guess, the process would be similar. though

probably more difficult in a way. but i still like the idea of this

direction as well.

i often joke about being illiterate. it is only half joke. for one

reason or another, i was not able to read literature until probably the

past three years or so. before that i could count the books on fingers

and toes. my bookshelves are overflowing with non-fiction books that

all lead through a back alley to the types of literature which this list

discusses. hence, the idea of tracing and learning is a wonderful

thought to me.

but, i'll definitely be a lurker on this. I might be able to throw in

two cents when the conversation turns to Pascal or Heidegger but when it

is in the vein of literature i will be a wide-eyed student.

hoping to learn

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:41:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow

The Mean People/Nice People Suck/Swallow thread so violated my alleged

Christian-Judeo ethics that my friends said I ran naked and screaming around

my office and was placed under involuntary psychiatric care for 48 hours.

While I was in the hospital I wrote the following, although I have no memory

of doing so. Apparently this is channeled material and therefore sacred.

Paul

********************************************************************************

DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

whatever you do

don't kill yrself

be a victim

let them torture you

lie to you

call you names

let them smile

as they twist

yr nipples and

throw rotten vegetables

throw up

endure the pain

endure the cramps

ulcers

parasites

indigestion

headaches

tumors

the size of cincinatti

get into yr pain

it's natural

it's there for a reason

pain is good

pain is our friend

just don't do

the dr. kevorkian thing

life is beautiful, dammit

pull yrself up

by the bootstraps

stand in the fire

knees together

feet apart

suck up to people

you can't stand

apologize for things

you didn't do

kiss ass

right on the mouth

come out of the closet

when you weren't even in

to begin with

start at the bottom

claw your way

to the top

don't just delay gratification

forget about it all together

stay with it

stay miserable

stay hungry

stay detatched

stay out of touch

as a matter of fact

don't touch

don't touch anyone

don't let them touch you

don't touch it

for gods sake

don't touch it

take cold showers

get out of the bathroom

as soon as possible

don't inhale

don't drink the water

don't ask

don't tell

don't call

don't write

don't think

don't trust anyone

don't pick it

it'll never heal

don't talk about it

it only makes it worse

believe that constipation

absolves responsibility

believe that which does not kill you

makes you bite down harder

embrace the dark

black hole

of the soul

it's good for you

makes hair grow

on yr chest

what's the matter

with you anyway?

you think yr different?

you think yr special?

you must have done something

to bring this on

yr being punished

for something

you thought you got away with

when no one was looking

well guess what?

god was looking

god can see through walls

god can see into yr heart

god knows when you are sleeping

he knows when yr awake

so get over it

get a job

get a life

get a raison d'etre

and remember

it's all karma

it's all in the genes

it's all been done before

so

relax

or i'll kill you

Paul McDonald (c) 1997

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:51:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970523124350.006ac734@pop.tiac.net>

>>Marie, there are many more beautiful paintings by Jack. I have seen some

>and they are AMAZING I am not sure exactly how many but a good guess would

>be over 40, John is talking about publishing that book as a large format

>color book of paintings. That is one I am really looking forward to. Phil

Phil: thanks for the information. could you provide updates if and when?

that one painting with wash out hanging and angel in sky just knocks me

out, brings dr sax directly into my heart's memories of such neighborhoods

and all.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:52:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow

Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:

>

> The Mean People/Nice People Suck/Swallow thread so violated my alleged

> Christian-Judeo ethics that my friends said I ran naked and screaming around

> my office and was placed under involuntary psychiatric care for 48 hours.

> While I was in the hospital I wrote the following, although I have no memory

> of doing so. Apparently this is channeled material and therefore sacred.

>

> Paul

>

>

*******************************************************************************

*

>

> DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

>

> whatever you do

> don't kill yrself

>

> be a victim

>

> let them torture you

> lie to you

> call you names

> let them smile

> as they twist

> yr nipples and

> throw rotten vegetables

>

> throw up

> endure the pain

> endure the cramps

> ulcers

> parasites

> indigestion

> headaches

> tumors

> the size of cincinatti

>

> get into yr pain

> it's natural

> it's there for a reason

> pain is good

> pain is our friend

> just don't do

> the dr. kevorkian thing

> life is beautiful, dammit

> pull yrself up

> by the bootstraps

> stand in the fire

> knees together

> feet apart

>

> suck up to people

> you can't stand

> apologize for things

> you didn't do

> kiss ass

> right on the mouth

> come out of the closet

> when you weren't even in

> to begin with

> start at the bottom

> claw your way

> to the top

>

> don't just delay gratification

> forget about it all together

> stay with it

> stay miserable

> stay hungry

> stay detatched

> stay out of touch

> as a matter of fact

> don't touch

> don't touch anyone

> don't let them touch you

> don't touch it

> for gods sake

> don't touch it

> take cold showers

> get out of the bathroom

> as soon as possible

>

> don't inhale

> don't drink the water

> don't ask

> don't tell

> don't call

> don't write

> don't think

> don't trust anyone

> don't pick it

> it'll never heal

> don't talk about it

> it only makes it worse

>

> believe that constipation

> absolves responsibility

>

> believe that which does not kill you

> makes you bite down harder

>

> embrace the dark

> black hole

> of the soul

> it's good for you

> makes hair grow

> on yr chest

>

> what's the matter

> with you anyway?

> you think yr different?

> you think yr special?

> you must have done something

> to bring this on

> yr being punished

> for something

> you thought you got away with

> when no one was looking

> well guess what?

> god was looking

> god can see through walls

> god can see into yr heart

> god knows when you are sleeping

> he knows when yr awake

>

> so get over it

> get a job

> get a life

> get a raison d'etre

> and remember

> it's all karma

> it's all in the genes

> it's all been done before

> so

> relax

>

> or i'll kill you

>

> Paul McDonald (c) 1997

psychiatric care is a great place to get insights and nice poetry and

all that. be careful not to entrust the staff with the writings while

you're there. it is easy to find out that they reached the incinerator

while the sedatives turned creativity into zombiehood. many many many

notebooks and collections of notes have gone that way from my anecdotal

personal experience.

i love the poem

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:55:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

In-Reply-To: <970523094152.5e1b@louisville.lib.ky.us>

ok paul,

i am now ready to bear yr children.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:22:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

l

>

>Phil: thanks for the information. could you provide updates if and when?

>that one painting with wash out hanging and angel in sky just knocks me

>out, brings dr sax directly into my heart's memories of such neighborhoods

>and all.

>mc

>That painting is Old Angel Midnight...note the clock at midnight and the

angel and the crosses in the windows...Kerouac echoes the ghost shape with

the wash on the line..the building in the background with the clock is

Lowell City Hall.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:12:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: more thoughts to ponder

Yes, many thanks, marie

Dixon

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:17:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow (or I'll kill you)

In-Reply-To: <970523094152.5e1b@louisville.lib.ky.us>

At 6:41 AM -0700 5/23/97, Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info

Services wrote:

> so get over it

> get a job

> get a life

> get a raison d'etre

> and remember

> it's all karma

> it's all in the genes

> it's all been done before

> so

> relax

>

> or i'll kill you

> Paul McDonald (c) 1997

yes, it's been a while since I've had sex too, but seriously, swallowing is

nothing to commit murder over. <oh my!> I'm new to this list, so you'll

forgive me for asking the following, but::

What are the best sex scenes in beat history/literature?

cheers, Douglas

<<"what do they call that spot

at the base of the neck?

right there, I want it"

(quasi-ralph fiennes

_english patient_)>>

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:29:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow (or I'll kill you)

In-Reply-To: <l03020904afab564dac1e@[198.5.212.108]>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, runner911 wrote:

> What are the best sex scenes in beat history/literature?

Few weeks ago, on one of the warmer nights in early May, I was reading

Ginsberg's _Journals Mid Fifties_ and the passage where Peter O cornballs

him for the first time (or was it the other way around?) in their tiny room

where Peter's younger bro was asleep in the bed next to them, Peter

whispering "I love you" just after orgasm or something like that.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:33:04 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Open Letter to Mr. Nicosia

Mr. Nicosia:

I applaud your willingness to back off. That will (if my read on Anstee and and

others is correct) require a great deal of restraint on your part. It is partly

for that reason that I am writing: to encourage you in your restraint.

You said that you have been driven to defend yourself and your professional

integrity. I don't think you need to worry about that. You've more than

substantiated your side of the story, and your professional integrity is (IMO)

in tact. As you have pointed out, your accomplishments only contribute to your

reputation. Many of us have read your work, and our impression of that work

goes a long way as well.

You said that you feel the other side has "won." In what sense? Your stopping

now at least keeps you from "losing" the battle with those who are more neutral.

And what would you have to gain with those who, as you say, "lie" and bend the

truth, and know damned well what they're doing. Why try to convince them? Talk

about pissing into the wind.... You say you've taught (I'm tenured faculty at a

community college); then you should know that sometimes you fight battles, are

in the right, and still feel as though you haven't really convinced anyone.

That's standard politics. I hate it; you probably do, too. But we're stuck

with it: Sometimes we just can't get closure in a situation. We go on.

I'm glad you're moving on to other topics, Mr. Nicosia. As Mr. Bealieu said,

we're glad you're here and look forward to your contributions to beat-l. This

is a weird kind of community in cyberspace. Sometimes I love the list, and

other times I don't... but my family is kind of like that, too. There's a

certain wisdom in knowing when to drop an issue.

All the best, and with immense respect,

---Wes Lundburg

wlundburg@mail.ff.cc.mn.us

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:35:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Subject: Influences on the Beats

Hello all, this is my first post - having lurked for awhile, would like

to say that there's many, many interesting posts and posters out there,

including (but certainly not limited to) the estate controversy.

About Beat precursors-

I think that this is a fascinating topic, mostly because the literary influences

on the

Beats are quite varied, considering how close the actual writers were

personally.

The Kerouac-Wolfe connection, for one, is quite distinct, especially if you look

at Jack's early work. It's fun to sit down and read Wolfe's first novel, Look

Homeward, Angel,

and Kerouac's first, Town and the City, and see just how much Kerouac looked up

to Wolfe

in those days - Kerouac's flowery prose about Lowell echoes Wolfe's about

Asheville

rather strikingly. (Interesting, too, because by the end of the book, Kerouac

begins to find

his own voice as opposed to imitating Wolfe's - but there are times where he

seems to jump

back and forth from sentence to sentence.) Seems that Jack even looked up to

Wolfe so much that

he created a fictional family for himself in T&C that resembled Wolfe's real

family, w/ 3 sisters and

3 brothers.

Temperamentally, too, apart from the generational differences, I think the two

had a lot in common. Wolfe

was always looking for a woman to provide for his needs so that he could get

down to writing, same as Jack.

(If anyone's interested, there's an excellent biography of Wolfe by David

Donald, same author that just

wrote one about Lincoln, that's well worth checking out.)

Ginsberg, although he learned much from Whitman and Blake philisophically,

always seemed to me

to be most influenced by William Carlos Williams stylistically. I think Williams

would fit into the

category of a "working class poet"; the fact of his being a doctor influenced

his poetry immensely,

and his efforts to capture the "American experience" and "American voice"

directly through poetry

was something Ginsberg admired deeply, I think. Jack mentions Williams

occasionally, but doesn't talk

about him all that much - perhaps just the difference between writing prose and

poetry, I'm sure someone

can speak to this more intelligently than I.

Burroughs, of course, is a whole another ballgame, and I'd be interested as well

in hearing what people think

influenced him.

In any case, this is just some food for thought - I hope this sparks some

discussion, as I know

many people out there are well qualified to speak about this.

Mark Noferi

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:48:31 -0400

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Wow!

Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats? I see a "line" from

Thoreau (sp) vs Emerson; Wolfe vs ????, Kerouac vs Vidal, Dylan vs

anyone, etc. There seems to be a thread that runs through "beat" side

of literature that is inherited into and by working class poets. Has

anyone studied or considered who are its predecessors. Like Gertrude

Stein ? the Bohemians? I am just curious.

Peace,

Bentz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:58:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

In-Reply-To: <33852F18.F1C87288@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at May 23,

97 01:46:00 am

Some lawyer wrote:

> I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were to

> ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post this

> to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas with

> me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia, but

> will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

>

> Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

Now half of us hate the other half, and now we've got a lawyer

telling us to all watch our words.

Way to not get dragged into the mire, guys ...

I'm *this* close to hitting "unsubscribe" -- the only thing

that's stopping me is that I know Bill Gargan worked hard

putting this list together and I think it's really pathetic

the way a few people are shitting all over it, and I don't

want to give up hope just yet that the list won't survive.

Not that the legal material isn't relevant (but *WE GET

THE POINT ALREADY*) and not that the personal material

doesn't have some entertainment value (mostly as sick comedy).

But enough is enough. It's time to stop. And about

lawyers -- I wouldn't hang out at a party where a lawyer is

standing there saying "watch your words everybody" and

I don't intend to hang out at a mailing list where this

is happening either.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:25:42 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

Levi Asher wrote:

>

> Some lawyer wrote:

> > I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were to

> > ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post this

> > to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas with

> > me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia, but

> > will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

> >

> > Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

>

> Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

> I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

> but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

> and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

> mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

>

> Now half of us hate the other half, and now we've got a lawyer

> telling us to all watch our words.

>

> Way to not get dragged into the mire, guys ...

>

> I'm *this* close to hitting "unsubscribe" -- the only thing

> that's stopping me is that I know Bill Gargan worked hard

> putting this list together and I think it's really pathetic

> the way a few people are shitting all over it, and I don't

> want to give up hope just yet that the list won't survive.

>

> Not that the legal material isn't relevant (but *WE GET

> THE POINT ALREADY*) and not that the personal material

> doesn't have some entertainment value (mostly as sick comedy).

> But enough is enough. It's time to stop. And about

> lawyers -- I wouldn't hang out at a party where a lawyer is

> standing there saying "watch your words everybody" and

> I don't intend to hang out at a mailing list where this

> is happening either.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

Levi-

Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

The best lack all conviction

and the worst are full of a passionate intensity

WB Yeats from an imperfect memory.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:46:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: For Gerry and friends

Well you've managed to be more abusive here than the whole estate battle has

been, haven't you.

For my part, I don't agree at all. I've been on this list for two years and

sat through some really boring self-indulgent crap, so if you don't like a

thread, the delete button is available to you.

I think this match-up, as it moves past the twelve-round mark, has become

fascinating. At first, as Jerry I think said, it wasn't clear which side an

outside observer would be on. But as the same questions keep being asked,

and instead of answers we get wild abuse and ridiculous allegations, I think

this list is getting a feel for what may have been going on over the years

here..

This is an open discussion forum to discuss matters pertaining to the Beats,

their writing and their lives. There have been some wild discussions and

some funky discussions that have had much less to do with the Beats than

what is happening with Jack Kerouac's estate, his books and his archive. I'm

interested in seeing where this goes - nowhere is still a destination - and

I think it's a completely appropriate forum to discuss it in.

Nick W-W

>Everyone's tried to be nice about this estate bullshit. I can't be polite

>anymore. Just shut the fuck up. For fuck's sake, shut the fuckin fuck up

>you stupid fuckin fucks. Form a splinter list so you can continue you're

>childish little rants. You're stifling those with interesting things to

>say. Your: You're a liar. No, you're a liar. Liar. Prove it. Where's

>the evidence. It's all tiresome. I'd like to challenge... you and your

>friends to shut the fuck up. I'll give you two days to finish your little

>squabble. After that, I'm bringing out the big fuckin guns. Peace.

>

> James M.

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:56:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

If you like collecting Beat stuff, it's very worthwhile trawling through

second hand bookstores and magazine places for old copies of LIFE etc (also

Playboy and similar 'gentlemens' magazines). Certainly you can come across

some of JK's articles in them, and often articles about Beat 'lifestyle'.

Unless the owner is clued in, you can pick these up fro as little as 50

cents each, and there are

fascinating insights into how the writing was received at the time.

Especially about how the Beats (and rock'n'roll and James Dean etc) were

causing the End of Civilization.

Nick

Also, someone else mentioned articles that

>appeared in Life magazine during the fifties about the Beats. If that person

>recognizes themselves I'd like a tip to the date/writer of the article.

>Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

>by Loudon Wainwright II.

>

> Many thanks.

>

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:45:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: to levi and all

In-Reply-To: <199705231458.HAA13490@netcom.netcom.com>

levi, i too have considered leaving list only days after resubbing (off

list for personal life stuff, not controversy). and then i said, no way no

shit. i remember first coming on this list like a happy puppy (and NOBODY

here has to apologize fer street-fighting words flung in all directions by

that whole scene) what kept me on list was to retain sense of humor and NOT

BOW DOWN to the then reigning netiquette that all personal. etc posts be

kept off the mmore academically oriented list at the time

ironically many of those folks (you know who they are), are now chatting

about totally personal posts, which confuse me, and jesum crow (as they say

up here in these parts), watching that particular pendulum swinging back

and forth put a reel nasty crik in me ear and neck i tell you no lie.

but anyway, levi: i refuse to be pushed out or around by this one. we have

ALL worked so hard to build a community that not only discussed beat works

to sharing poetry and memories and bitter/sweet feelings.

i'll continue to post thoughts poems and my occasional soap box oration, as

whole mess is about to implode from gaseous egos involved.

i dont care if i never wrote a published word and dont know the 'right'

people:

i know i have integrity, and when i am gone from this life, i'll leave a

trail of kindlyness behind me, just that is more than enough for me.

fer yr perusal, i have concluded with a few word from ole ezra pound:

LLXI

what thou lovest well remains,

the rest is dross

what thou lov'st well shall not be reft from thee

what thou lov'st well is thy true heritage

whose world, or mine or theirs

or is it of none?

first came the seen, then thus the palpable

Elysium, though it were in the halls of hell,

what thou lovest well is thy true heritage

the ants a centaur in his dragon world.

pull down thy vanity, it is not man

made courage, or made order, or made grace,

pull down thy vanity, i say pull down,

learn of the green world what can be thy place

in scaled invention or true artistry,

pull down thy vanity,

paquin pull down!

the green casque has outdone your eloquence.

"master thyself, then others shall thee beare"

pull down thy vanity, i say pull down.

thou art a beaten dog beneath the hail,

a wollen magpie in a fitful sun,

half black half white

nor knowst'ou wing from tail

pull down they vanity

how mean thy hates

fostered in falsity,

pull down thy vanity

,

rathe to destroy, niggard in charity,

pull down thy vanity,

i say pull down.

but to have done instead of not doing

this is not vanity

to have, with decency, knocked

that a blunt should open

to have gathered from the air a live tradition

or from a fine ole eye the unquenched flame

this is not vanity.

here error is all in the not done,

all in the diffidence which faltered,

oooommmm

peace

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:02:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: to levi and all

At 11:45 AM 5/23/97 -0400, Marie wrote:

>oooommmm

Or AG's mantra:

AHH

The way things have been recently it's more

like

AHHHHHHHHH!!!! {;^>

Mike (who's still hangin' on by his fingernails)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:34:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Remove Me

REMOVE BEAT-L Paul A. Maher Jr.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:37:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Boring Anal post (one swear word, one capital letter word,

no swallowing)

I hate myself for doing this, but in response to Lisa's angry post, this is

the BEAT-L rubric I received when I joined the list in June 1995. It's NOT

just a list about Beat Literature, it's an open list about the *lives and

works* of the Beat Generation. I think the estate discussion falls into that

exactly. I think the hostility of the exchange shows us who have not been

involved very clearly what's been brewing for years and years and how

distateful it all has been.

It's also produced a lot of very interesting information underneath the

abuse. We have a substantial reprint list and I'm very interested in

publishing the Kerouac works that have fallen into the public domain. I'm

delighted to see at last the actual list of what archives are at the NYPL.

It must only be a tiny fraction of what will eventually (hopefully) be

there. It's such a pity that Jack didn't live long enough to sort this out

himself. The John Cage archives (or one third of them - he split up

manuscripts, correspondence, and other articles between three places) are at

Northwestern and are so meticulous and so organized and so easy for scholars

to use. I have to say that the list did look pretty meager nearly twenty

years after Jack died, but there quite clearly are reasons for that (good

and bad, I would guess).

I must say I found the suggestion that we as JK fans on the list should be

grateful for what the estate chooses to release and stop whining to be very

insulting. We're not dogs waiting for bones. I'm sure we'll fork out the

readies for Some of The Dharma and that the royalties will be plentiful, but

don't fucking patronize please.

Nick

BEAT-L rubric follows

Return-Path: <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:33:59 -0400

>X-Ph: V3.12@relay

>From: "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8b)"

<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Subject: Welcome to BEAT-L

>To: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

>Reply-To: BEAT-L-Request@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>X-Lsv-Listid: BEAT-L

>

>Welcome to BEAT-L, an online discussion forum devoted to the study of

>the lives and works of the writers of the Beat Generation, especially

>Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs. BEAT-L is an

>unmoderated list open to anyone interested in the Beat Generation.

>Scholars, writers, students, laymen -- all are welcome to join the

>discussion and share their ideas. In addition to providing an outlet

>for discussion of Beat texts, the listserv is intended to facilitate

>scholarly communication and to serve as a bulletin board or calendar

>for poetry readings, announcements of new publications, upcoming

>conferences and other Beat related events.

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:30:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: So Relax - (or I'll kill you)

A very nice assesment, Paul, of some people trying to tell others "what is

Beat, what is not Beat" and what does or does not belong on this list...

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:32:46 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truce-Peace

Reply to message from philzi@TIAC.NET of Thu, 22 May

>

>It is obvious by Lisa and Marie's and others posts that people are sick to

>death of this estate talk. I have been on the list for a few years now and

>have enjoyed talking about Kerouac. It is hard to keep quite when you know

>something is being said that isn't right. Especially for a hot-tempered

>Frenchman like myself. But apparently people have had enough. I am willing

>to call it quits about the estate stuff if everyone else will. Hell even if

>they don't stop. I WILL. Let's talk KEROUAC like the good old days. Let's

>end it all right here and now. No more jabs after the bell rings.Phil Chaput

Kerouac, Kerouac, Kerouac...Kerouac wasn't the only Beat, you know!!!!!

Diane.

--

This sesame seed is bigger than my head!

--the guy from the McDonald's commercial

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:52:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly

I am signing off this list because I find it too distracting to my work. I

am in the editing stage of Vol. I, No. 2 and writing Looking For Jack: The

Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac for publication this summer.

For subscribers to this list, I will sell the second quarterly for $2.00.

Please say in the envelope that you are from the Beat-L list. This offer

will remain for the next three weeks and then will go back to the regular

price of $5.00 (USA) $7.00 (overseas and Canada). For overseas and Canadian

subscribers to beat-L, add $2.00 for postage. Thanks, Paul A. Maher Jr.

You are free to e-mail me privately at Mapaul@pipeline.com for info on

forthcoming publications. Also, Water Row Books can help you if I am unable

to get to you right away. Waterrow@aol.com

Thanks in advance, Regrads to all, Paul again....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:44:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Early Morning Thoughts

Dear Lisa and all my friends at the Beat-List, May 23, 1997

I said I'd write no more, but by the last 40 posts, it looks like

people still have some undigested matters to mull over. I'd like to help

people examine some of these matters.

I promise, Lisa, not to let my anger spill over into angry language

again--regardless of how many bogus charges are brought against me (they

haven't yet accused me of rape or murder, but I expect those are coming soon).

Here are some early-morning thoughts:

1) Mr. Chaput claims his brother-in-law told him it was illegal for

me to sell xeroxes of Kerouac letters to the U Mass, Lowell library, when

those xeroxes were made for private study (they are all covered with my

marginal annotations), used for material in MEMORY BABE, and were included

in a far larger collection of study materials, aimed at helping other

students and scholars to learn more about Jack Kerouac. Would Mr. Chaput

please provide the statute of law that spells out the crime I have

supposedly committed?

2) Mr. Chaput has been brandishing Jan Kerouac's income

statements--as if the amount of money she earned per year had anything to do

with what is being done to Jack Kerouac's archive. BUT HERE'S A QUESTION:

Will Mr. Chaput please tell us where he got Jan Kerouac's income tax

returns? These are absolutely confidential documents--the IRS will not give

them out without an authorized signature. The only other source is Sterling

Lord, who was both Mr. Sampas's agent and Ms. Kerouac's agent. If Mr. Lord

is giving out Jan Kerouac's income statements, he is breaching his

agent-client confidentiality--even if he gives them to Mr. Sampas.

3) Mr. Chaput claims that none of the material he posts here comes

from Mr. Sampas. Yet where did Jan Kerouac's income statements come from?

Also, Mr. Chaput reports the date and time of a phone call Sampas's lawyer

George Tobia made to a SAN FRANCISCO RADIO STATION 2 1/2 years ago, talking

about the warrant for child support that Jan Kerouac sold, privately, to a

dealer to help bring her cousin to New York for the filing of her lawsuit

against the Sampases. How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

in Lowell, Massachusetts?

4) We have seen an impressive list of Kerouac materials now in the

New York Public Library, but nobody mentions that the New York Public

Library has been building a Kerouac/Beat collection for the last 30 years,

and that they have purchased items from many different people, including a

large collection from Ann Charters two years ago. At least half a dozen

other U.S. libraries are building Kerouac collections: Reed College

(Portland), Newberry Library (Chicago), Humanities Research Center (Texas),

Stanford, SUNY Buffalo, and Bancroft (Berkeley), among others.

I am happy for what is in the New York Public Library. But it is,

at most, 5% of the entire Jack Kerouac archive. Librarian Rodney Phillips

claimed to me that many of the letters there are in xerox. And as I have

pointed out before, the way to place an archive on deposit is in one body,

at one time, so that all of it may be catalogued together. By "gutting" an

archive, piece by piece, one virtually guarantees that no other major

institution is ever going to pay top price for it again.

Mr. Phillips has limited money at his disposal. He could come up

with one million dollars for the entire archive, but he cannot come up with

hundreds of thousands of dollars for individual manuscripts, which is what

Mr. Sampas has asked. So Mr. Phillips, doing the best he can, buys a few

letters here, a few notebooks there. He hopes that somehow the NYPL will be

able to acquire the rest of the Kerouac Archive. But at the pace we are

going, this piecemeal sale could go on for twenty or thirty more years. Who

is to say that the NYPL will continue to have funding, continue to have the

same interest in Kerouac, decade after decade? AND IF THEY DON'T, WHAT

OTHER LIBRARY IS GOING TO JUMP IN AND PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR A "GUTTED" ARCHIVE?

None that I know of.

Besides, the careful sorting, filing, and cataloguing that would be

necessary for a huge, complex archive like this CAN BEST BE DONE WHEN THE

WHOLE ARCHIVE IS PRESENT AT ONE TIME, IN ONE PLACE. Librarians may find,

for example, that particular breast pocket notebooks were incorporated in an

early version of a certain novel, on one of the many scrolls Kerouac typed

on, but they can only make such comparisons if they have the entire archive

in front of them as they work.

Enough for now,

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:49:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

To the "General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick...

Lisa, you may think you know more than the rest of us, and God Bless you I'm

sure you do about some things, but that doesn't give you the right to tell

everyone else what to do.

Lisa, if you're getting 500 e-mails a day why don't you figure out a way to

manage that. I'm no tech heavy but I figured out very early on that AOL

allows me to have more than one screen name and this one you see here is

dedicated to the Beat-l only. If a techno-phobe like me can manage that

trick it oughta be a slam dunk for somene who prides herself on her technical

prowess.

Congratulations, Lisa, you're the first person to ever tell me to "Fuck-Off"

on this or any other list. Put's you in very good company with the

ever-mature Mr. Chaput who's very first post to Nicosia included the essence

of maturity "Fuck You Gerry".

Lisa, you amaze me in other ways too. You say you're on "auto-delete" for

all estate related posts and then proceed to tell us everything that is being

said. You are one

amazing person.

With all due respect to you and evryone else calling for the silencing of

this thread - hit your delete keys. Unsubscribe. Do whatever floats your

boat, but don't you dare tell me this topic is not relevant. The tone is

harsh, yes. And no one recognizes that more than me. And you aren't helping

to calm it by telling me or anyone else to "Fuck-Off". But the topic is

relevant as hell.

Jerry Cimino

*************************************************************************

A general person-liking "I don't claim to be better than anyone else" guy.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:05:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Influences on the Beats

de-lurking for a moment in the midst of the great estate battle...

Has anyone looked closely into the influence of Lionel Trilling on JK and

AG while they were at Columbia? Barry Miles' bio on AG mainly talks about

how Lionel and Diana helped AG get commited, and other bios are equally

sparse. Anyone have anything else to add?

jd

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:09:25 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523165241.006a3d48@pop.pipeline.com>

i would love to take a hold of this feal yr offering HOWEVER my $ is

alread in the mail for issues #2 & 3. no if its easier for you to charge

me full price for both issues thats ok. if youd rather extend the beat for

beat-L members to me as well, thats cool too. whatevers easiest.

thanks for the kind offer & i hope maybe i'll see you on beat-L again some

day when the heat has gone down.thanks again

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:25:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: The Music. . .

Beat friends,

I've started to have a quiet conversation off list with Ms. Laura Moja (of

Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo) concerning the

connection between Music and the Beats. Having virtually no hard knowledge

of Parker, Diz, Monk, and the boys, my side of the conversation has been

mostly limited to a few ideas I've been considering about Coltrane. So, I

figured it might be a good idea to drag this list, kicking and screaming,

into the discussion and hope that it might spark at least a side thread for

those who are bored with WWIII.

Antoine, I know you're out there buddy, what can you offer up? What was

about be-bop that so enthralled the entire scene? Don't get me wrong, I

dig the music, but my tastes slip a bit further up the timeline to hard bop

& free jazz. Be-bop seems such a "happy" music, at least the bit I've been

exposed to.

My best to all,

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:06:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Early Morning Thoughts

At 09:44 AM 5/23/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Lisa and all my friends at the Beat-List, May 23, 1997

>

> I said I'd write no more, but by the last 40 posts, it looks like

>people still have some undigested matters to mull over. I'd like to help

>people examine some of these matters.

> I promise, Lisa, not to let my anger spill over into angry language

>again--regardless of how many bogus charges are brought against me (they

>haven't yet accused me of rape or murder, but I expect those are coming soon).

> Here are some early-morning thoughts:

> 1) Mr. Chaput claims his brother-in-law told him it was illegal for

>me to sell xeroxes of Kerouac letters to the U Mass, Lowell library, when

>those xeroxes were made for private study (they are all covered with my

>marginal annotations), used for material in MEMORY BABE, and were included

>in a far larger collection of study materials, aimed at helping other

>students and scholars to learn more about Jack Kerouac. Would Mr. Chaput

>please provide the statute of law that spells out the crime I have

>supposedly committed?

> 2) Mr. Chaput has been brandishing Jan Kerouac's income

>statements--as if the amount of money she earned per year had anything to do

>with what is being done to Jack Kerouac's archive. BUT HERE'S A QUESTION:

>Will Mr. Chaput please tell us where he got Jan Kerouac's income tax

>returns? These are absolutely confidential documents--the IRS will not give

>them out without an authorized signature. The only other source is Sterling

>Lord, who was both Mr. Sampas's agent and Ms. Kerouac's agent. If Mr. Lord

>is giving out Jan Kerouac's income statements, he is breaching his

>agent-client confidentiality--even if he gives them to Mr. Sampas.

> 3) Mr. Chaput claims that none of the material he posts here comes

>from Mr. Sampas. Yet where did Jan Kerouac's income statements come from?

>Also, Mr. Chaput reports the date and time of a phone call Sampas's lawyer

>George Tobia made to a SAN FRANCISCO RADIO STATION 2 1/2 years ago, talking

>about the warrant for child support that Jan Kerouac sold, privately, to a

>dealer to help bring her cousin to New York for the filing of her lawsuit

>against the Sampases. How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

>I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

>in Lowell, Massachusetts?

(note****a tape of this radio conversation has widely circulated from a

source unnamed in California...)

> 4) We have seen an impressive list of Kerouac materials now in the

>New York Public Library, but nobody mentions that the New York Public

>Library has been building a Kerouac/Beat collection for the last 30 years,

>and that they have purchased items from many different people, including a

>large collection from Ann Charters two years ago. At least half a dozen

>other U.S. libraries are building Kerouac collections: Reed College

>(Portland), Newberry Library (Chicago), Humanities Research Center (Texas),

>Stanford, SUNY Buffalo, and Bancroft (Berkeley), among others.

note****Is that not what we as scholars want?

> I am happy for what is in the New York Public Library. But it is,

>at most, 5% of the entire Jack Kerouac archive. Librarian Rodney Phillips

>claimed to me that many of the letters there are in xerox.

note******They are real bonafide letters from Jack's carbon or hand....no

library will buy a xerox letter anyways. Many of the letters I mentioned

were sold in huge chunks and I will publish the dates in the quarterly.

And as I have

>pointed out before, the way to place an archive on deposit is in one body,

>at one time, so that all of it may be catalogued together. By "gutting" an

>archive, piece by piece, one virtually guarantees that no other major

>institution is ever going to pay top price for it again.

> Mr. Phillips has limited money at his disposal. He could come up

>with one million dollars for the entire archive, but he cannot come up with

>hundreds of thousands of dollars for individual manuscripts, which is what

>Mr. Sampas has asked. So Mr. Phillips, doing the best he can, buys a few

>letters here, a few notebooks there. He hopes that somehow the NYPL will be

>able to acquire the rest of the Kerouac Archive. But at the pace we are

>going, this piecemeal sale could go on for twenty or thirty more years. Who

>is to say that the NYPL will continue to have funding, continue to have the

>same interest in Kerouac, decade after decade? AND IF THEY DON'T, WHAT

>OTHER LIBRARY IS GOING TO JUMP IN AND PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR A "GUTTED" ARCHIVE?

>None that I know of.

note**** This is not an unusual phenomenon in depositing archives. Ralph

waldo Emerson's letters, journals, lectures are spread out scantly ALL OVER

THE PLACE.

> Besides, the careful sorting, filing, and cataloguing that would be

>necessary for a huge, complex archive like this CAN BEST BE DONE WHEN THE

>WHOLE ARCHIVE IS PRESENT AT ONE TIME, IN ONE PLACE. Librarians may find,

>for example, that particular breast pocket notebooks were incorporated in an

>early version of a certain novel, on one of the many scrolls Kerouac typed

>on, but they can only make such comparisons if they have the entire archive

>in front of them as they work

note****but, they are not only concerned about K's work in there. They have

Ginsberg's stuff, Louis Zukofsky's, Charles Olson's, Robert Creeley's,

denise Levertov's, Robert Duncan's etc. etc. They do in fact hold a unique

retrospective by chance and not by design of the whole Beat Movement that

can only be enhanced by the objects that are placed there as well as

Kerouac's. All these things will resolve themselves with time. I think right

now it is more important to get these things published that aren't. We could

have easily been denied this when Stella Sampas was alive and did not choose

to publish ANYTHING.

>

> Paul Maher Jr.....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:00:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Marie and Ezra Pound ...to levi and all

Marie, (long rambling discussion with lots of twists and turns!)

An apt comment and a perfect Pound commentary! I can't wait for

Lizzie to get home to show this to her. She'll be delighted after listening

to me moan and whine about the estate battle and the recent arrival of a

practitioner of Willie the Shake's least-favorite occupation....(don't mean

you David...you do legal work without being a lawyer right?)

Levi displayed his great experience and insight in his prescient

comment upon the arrival of Gerry Nicosia. I wouldn't really have wanted to

miss it, but it has become so over the top with all the personal attacks,

cheap shots, and general ranting. Politeness and kindness, despite

differences of opinion have - most of the time - been the watchword of this

list. Whenever we have slipped away from that it has become a burden.

Just a speculative comment on the accusations directed at Rod Anstee

- which I guess parallels the same attitude to Johnny Depp's raincoat

purchase. We have heard very accusatory comments made about material being

bought from the Kerouac "archives". Excuse me, but it is completely lost on

me what the sale of a raincoat (nothing in the coat pockets I assume!?!) has

to do with the archives. It's memorabilia and it's interesting, but it's not

part of a literary archive any more than his desk chair, desk, typewriter,

etc. It might be nice to have them in one place all together for viewing,

but it's not in the same league as notebooks, drafts, etc.

Similarly, Rod Anstee was singled out for buying material - books I

assume - from Jack's library. Perhaps if a book was full of dated references

/ annotations it could be legitimately claimed to be a loss to the research

community. But is that the case? I'll bet that it hasn't been the case given

John Sampas's apparent protectiveness towards the Kerouac archives.

Rod is a collector, particularly, of different editions of "On The

Road" - any and all languages, the more the merrier. In one exchange of

e-mails with me he mentioned looking for Finnish and, I think, Malay

language editions and I gave him the e-mail address of a guy in Finland who

ran a great Little Richard webst...really!

I know that Jack Kerouac particularly relished having lots of

editions of his books and I'm guessing that that's the kind of thing Rod

would be very interested in. Again this doesn't sound like pillaging the

archives and all I/we have to go on is innuendo laden comments.

Regarding the estate discussion, I would welcome more of it if only

if the rancour and spite and accusations of conspiracy were kept out of it.

One suggestion I'll make here that would be an excellent and interesting

contribution for someone to make - not me! - is a chronology showing who

died when, who sued when, who married when, etc. in the intertwined lives of

the Kerouac and Sampas clans. Phil's mention of the Time Magazine timeline

put that thought in my head and I've frequently had trouble getting the

sequence of events and intervals of time clear. Gerry Nicosia - you probably

have the most complete grasp of this....

Thanks again Marie for the Pound and to Levi, Jerry Cimino, James

for the Yeats (the new Foster biography is great my wife says), Wes

Lundberg, David Rhaesa and many others for the measured tones of their

contributions. Gerry Nicosia would do well to follow Wes's good advice and

not feel so hard done by. I like having Gerry on the list - but I like

having Atilla and Phil and Paul Maher and the other co-conspirators on the

list as well! I'm not going anywhere and I hope sincerely that Levi, Marie,

Mike Cakebread et al (Al Sublette?) stick around also. I've still got way

too much to learn!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:08:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

Jerry,

Can I borrow your sig file? It was the best part of the whole riposte!

....which was right-on!

Antoine

A general person-liking "I don't claim to be better than anyone else" guy.

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:46:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: lawyers in the mix

Im sorry, but I don't see how backbiting, name calling, getting lawyer

in

the mix, and other going ons are 'helping' anything.

woah, as a lawyer, I am like the government and I am here to help.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:47:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: more thoughts to ponder:on debate vs mudslinging,

passion vs aggression

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 May 1997 07:08:22 -0400 from

<country@SOVER.NET>

Yea, Marie's right...let's let all this agression go!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:50:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 May 1997 08:35:33 -0400 from <cake@IONLINE.NET>

On Fri, 23 May 1997 08:35:33 -0400 M. Cakebread said:

>At 02:05 AM 5/23/97 -0700, Lisa Rabey wrote:

>

>>This is NOT about censorship, book burning or anything else.

>>Its about common sense and having MANNERS. I am

>>NOT the only one who feels this way, but I may be the

>>most vocal.

>

>Hey Lisa et al,

>

>I don't believe the issue is "censorship." Nobody wants

>the estate/papers discussion to end (major part of Kerouac

>history). I think the general plea has been for the

>mean, sarcastic, cheap-shots to be done in private

>e-mail. This isn't censorship, it is a request that people

>stick to the facts and be respectful of one another. We

>may not all agree on things, but were does meaness,

>sarcasm and daggers get us, NOWHERE! Just back into

>a stupid repetative cycle of bullshit. Just my feelings.

>Flame away...

>

>Mike

Mike, you're absolutely right. The Kerouac Archives are an important topic for

the list but we've had too much repetition and too much name calling. Everyone

on the list now has heard both sides of the argument. If there's anthing new,

I'm sure all of us would appreciate hearing it in a CIVIL, NON-AGRESSIVE forum.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:52:55 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Music...

Hello, Bruce! You're not dragging ME in kicking and screaming... I love

discussing the beats and jazz (these are a couple of my favorite things). As a

lover of be-bop and all forms of jazz, I would strongly recommend immersing

yourself in Charlie Parker ("Bebop and Bird, Vol 1" is a good intro), John

Coltrane (a favorite of mine, for its interpretive power, is "My Favorite

Things"), as well as Dizzy Gillespie and a hundred others as well. Just allow

yourself to be caught up in the music's movement. It speaks. It is poetic.

About six months ago, I reread _On The Road_ with Parker playing in the

background as I read, and some portions of the novel were so much more powerful

as a result.

I can't emphasize it enough... develop your own perspective on the relationship

between bebop and the beats. As I reread that sentence, it could be taken

wrong: don't take it wrong. I'm perfectly serious when I say that developing

your own perspective will be the best approach... developing your own means

creating your own, personal experience around the blown music and the written

words.

This may be useful to you: In teaching a novel course last quarter, I played

some Charlie Parker in class, pointing out how he deviates from the established

pattern of the musical rhythm (which is maintained by other band members as a

background), punctuating certain parts of the tune. We were reading Ralph

Ellison's _Invisible Man_ at the time, so we read portions (the dream sequences)

of the novel immediately after listening to Parker. Students--all of whom were

skeptical when I walked in with my boom box, mind you--were amazed at the

similarities in such apparently different mediums. Ellison uses certain

repetitive words in the same way that Parker uses certain repetitive notes. I

think the same can work for Kerouac, et al... especially for someone like you,

who likes jazz and loves the beats.

Hope this helps...

Regards,

---Wes

>Beat friends,

>

> I've started to have a quiet conversation off list with Ms. Laura Moja

>(of

>Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo) concerning the

>connection between Music and the Beats. Having virtually no hard knowledge

>of Parker, Diz, Monk, and the boys, my side of the conversation has been

>mostly limited to a few ideas I've been considering about Coltrane. So, I

>figured it might be a good idea to drag this list, kicking and screaming,

>into the discussion and hope that it might spark at least a side thread for

>those who are bored with WWIII.

> Antoine, I know you're out there buddy, what can you offer up? What

>was

>about be-bop that so enthralled the entire scene? Don't get me wrong, I

>dig the music, but my tastes slip a bit further up the timeline to hard bop

>& free jazz. Be-bop seems such a "happy" music, at least the bit I've been

>exposed to.

>

>My best to all,

>

>Bruce

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:57:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Beat History

Would Tom Wolfe of Electric Koolaid Acid Test and Hunter Thompson of

Fear and Loathing qualify as "beat."

And yet, I am wondering if there is not at least two threads of

literature throughout history. I don't know enough and am not well read

enough to deal with this idea on my own. But it seems to me that you

have two spirits, one which is the "voice" of society and the other

which is the "voice" of those who are beaten out of society. If so, it

would run throughout time. I would like to know if any literary

teachers, commentators etc, have ever explored the idea. Back to Homer,

was he beat or was he society. What about Thomas Aquianas? Maybe this

too large of an idea, but I would like to see the result of a study of

this idea. We have always been beat.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:00:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ann Charters Interview

A number of weeks ago we were told on the Beat-l by a number of people we

should be doing our own research. As some people said the Ann Charters

Interview by Dan Barth would shed some light on the topic I asked (twice) for

someone to summarize what it said. No one did.

I would like to thank Greg Severance on this list. Greg E-mailed Dan Barth

directly asking Dan to forward me the interview. Dan did so and here is my

summary:

The article is probably about 5000 words. Barth interviewed Charters on

3/28/95 in San Francisco while Ann was on a West Coast tour for Jack Kerouac:

Selected Letters Pt I, 1940-1956. Most of the interview focuses on Ann

Charters' life and background, the book tour, the book itself, various JK

letters in general and in particular. About 1000 words or so concerns itself

with the Kerouac estate debate.

To summarize, Ann Charters does not say anything that disagrees with what

Gerry Nicosia has been saying from the day he joined this list. To the

contrary, what she does say *substantiates* the points Nicosia has been

making all along. A quote:

Dan Barth: As far as you know has there been any selling off piecemeal?

Ann Charters: There has been some. I don't know how much because Sampas

doesn't tell me. Why should he? I'm not getting any income from it and I

don't, frankly, have a relationship with John Sampas that is one of

confidante. I work for hire, his terms. He gets the final say on

everything.

Well, folks, I've done my due diligence. Ann Charters may not be talking on

this list and she may not be the president of the Gerry Nicosia fan club, but

she doesn't contradict his arguments either, at least not in this interview.

In fact, she supports them.

By the way, before sending this out I e-mailed Dan Barth summarizing for him

my conclusions and asking his permission to post this summary. He e-mailed

me back saying my conclusions sounded accurate to him and to feel free to

post it to the list.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:07:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Re: Open Letter to Mr. Nicosia

Wes Lundburg wrote:

> Mr. Nicosia:

>

> I'm glad you're moving on to other topics, Mr. Nicosia. As Mr.

> Bealieu said,

> we're glad you're here and look forward to your contributions to

> beat-l. This

> is a weird kind of community in cyberspace. Sometimes I love the

> list, and

> other times I don't... but my family is kind of like that, too.

> There's a

> certain wisdom in knowing when to drop an issue.

>

> All the best, and with immense respect,

>

> ---Wes Lundburg

> wlundburg@mail.ff.cc.mn.us

I signed onto this list because of my love for the works of Jack

Kerouac, and other beat poets. To be able to be on a list where I can

receive comments from Gerry Nicosia, I can not think of a better place

to be. As a lawyer, I say fight out the other stuff in the courtroom.

No point in being cross examined from your posts to this news group.

And I would not want to lose Gerry's imput because of this type of

atmosphere.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:24:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Music...

What Wes says is so right - but remember also it wasn't coincidental - the

way Charlie Parker played was a huge influence on how they all wrote, and

certainly at some points you can see a concious effort to do in words what

the be-bop players were doing with music. Jack wrote some jazz criticism as

well, was really into it all, in fact the main reason I love his writing

more than the others so much is the way he captures the swing of bop

Nick

>Hello, Bruce! You're not dragging ME in kicking and screaming... I love

>discussing the beats and jazz (these are a couple of my favorite things). As a

>lover of be-bop and all forms of jazz, I would strongly recommend immersing

>yourself in Charlie Parker ("Bebop and Bird, Vol 1" is a good intro), John

>Coltrane (a favorite of mine, for its interpretive power, is "My Favorite

>Things"), as well as Dizzy Gillespie and a hundred others as well. Just allow

>yourself to be caught up in the music's movement. It speaks. It is poetic.

>About six months ago, I reread _On The Road_ with Parker playing in the

>background as I read, and some portions of the novel were so much more powerful

>as a result.

>

>I can't emphasize it enough... develop your own perspective on the relationship

>between bebop and the beats. As I reread that sentence, it could be taken

>wrong: don't take it wrong. I'm perfectly serious when I say that developing

>your own perspective will be the best approach... developing your own means

>creating your own, personal experience around the blown music and the written

>words.

>

>This may be useful to you: In teaching a novel course last quarter, I played

>some Charlie Parker in class, pointing out how he deviates from the established

>pattern of the musical rhythm (which is maintained by other band members as a

>background), punctuating certain parts of the tune. We were reading Ralph

>Ellison's _Invisible Man_ at the time, so we read portions (the dream

sequences)

>of the novel immediately after listening to Parker. Students--all of whom were

>skeptical when I walked in with my boom box, mind you--were amazed at the

>similarities in such apparently different mediums. Ellison uses certain

>repetitive words in the same way that Parker uses certain repetitive notes. I

>think the same can work for Kerouac, et al... especially for someone like you,

>who likes jazz and loves the beats.

>

>Hope this helps...

>

>Regards,

>---Wes

>

>

>>Beat friends,

>>

>> I've started to have a quiet conversation off list with Ms. Laura Moja

>>(of

>>Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo) concerning the

>>connection between Music and the Beats. Having virtually no hard knowledge

>>of Parker, Diz, Monk, and the boys, my side of the conversation has been

>>mostly limited to a few ideas I've been considering about Coltrane. So, I

>>figured it might be a good idea to drag this list, kicking and screaming,

>>into the discussion and hope that it might spark at least a side thread for

>>those who are bored with WWIII.

>> Antoine, I know you're out there buddy, what can you offer up? What

>>was

>>about be-bop that so enthralled the entire scene? Don't get me wrong, I

>>dig the music, but my tastes slip a bit further up the timeline to hard bop

>>& free jazz. Be-bop seems such a "happy" music, at least the bit I've been

>>exposed to.

>>

>>My best to all,

>>

>>Bruce

>

>

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:15:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Beat History

In-Reply-To: <3385E8A6.CB77F85@scsn.net>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Would Tom Wolfe of Electric Koolaid Acid Test and Hunter Thompson of

> Fear and Loathing qualify as "beat."

I would say yes to HST, as beat as Dylan or Garcia or Don McNeill could be.

If anything, it's guilt by association & friendships & value sharing,

etc. And a definite no to Wolfe. Yeah he chronicled the bus and helped

develop & compile the New Journalism but he wasn't, in Kesey's words, a

"warrior." HST on the other hand was/is (was?) a definite warrior. Where the

Beat stops and a new generation of warriors take over is anybody's guess --

by the talk on the list about such things it looks like it'll be debated

until it's actual past history and the new warriors are making appearances

on David Letterman explaining the novel they wrote five years earlier about

events a decade past, or something like that.

m

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:22:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Burroughs

>Burroughs, of course, is a whole another ballgame, and I'd be

interested as well

>in hearing what people think

>influenced him.

was posted by Mark. Thanks for the post. I enjoyed reviewing it.

I would suggest his greatest influences were not other writers, they

were, Wilheim Reich, ie orgone box etc., drugs, and life in a whole

nother lane we don't even want to know about. That is my idea on

Burroughs. I never "warmed" up to Naked Lunch or the Wild Boys, but

without his work, there would be no Clockwork Orange (at least the

Movie), no Steely Dan (another name), no Alice Cooper etc.

Thanks for the ideas.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:40:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>,

James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Levi Asher wrote:

> Some lawyer wrote:

> > I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were

> to

> > ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post

> this

> > to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas

> with

> > me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia,

> but

> > will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

> >

> > Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

>

> Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

> I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

> but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

> and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

> mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

>

> Now half of us hate the other half, and now we've got a lawyer

> telling us to all watch our words.

>

> Way to not get dragged into the mire, guys ...

>

> I'm *this* close to hitting "unsubscribe" -- the only thing

> that's stopping me is that I know Bill Gargan worked hard

> putting this list together and I think it's really pathetic

> the way a few people are shitting all over it, and I don't

> want to give up hope just yet that the list won't survive.

>

> Not that the legal material isn't relevant (but *WE GET

> THE POINT ALREADY*) and not that the personal material

> doesn't have some entertainment value (mostly as sick comedy).

> But enough is enough. It's time to stop. And about

> lawyers -- I wouldn't hang out at a party where a lawyer is

> standing there saying "watch your words everybody" and

> I don't intend to hang out at a mailing list where this

> is happening either.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

No, no no, don't read that wrong. I am interested in the questions

that are raised and the primary one I am interested in as far as legal

matters goes is whether the collection at UMass-Lowell is properly cared

for. I just saw in my first night on board that Jerry felt that he has

been slandered and made the point that this can in fact occur. I

certainly did not mean to "threaten" anyone and did not sign onto the

list as a lawyer, but as a person who has read everything that I could

find or buy by Kerouac and by Thomas Wolfe. I love Beat writers and

would like to be able to discuss them with the likes of Gerry. I do not

want to see him run off.

Because I was curious about what the agendas were, I invited the posters

to discuss it with me off line, back channel. Then I realized that I

did not want to mislead anyone. If offered a case that had merit to it

from Gerry, then I might take it. At that point, I would no longer be

objective. I believe strongly, because my trust has been violated on

other lists, that b/c private mail is just that. And up to the point

that I would get involved, I have no duty to Gerry, Sampas, etc and just

want to learn.

As I reflected on my request for information, I realized that if I did

ever get involved as an attorney, someone who had different interests

might think that I "duped" them into giving me information. Thus, I

just wanted to state very openly who I was and to make sure that anyone

who did elect to back channel me would understand that I probably have a

biasis in favor of Gerry and that they should only talk to me, I could

end up in court on the issue, but would not use the infromation from an

email and would want the "pro Sampas" crowd to be cautious and

understand that I may not ultimately be neutural.

I just want full and fair disclosure of the "agenda" that I have, which

is free beer, more sex, and less work, oh yeah, and for the time being,

I continue to admire Gerald.

I hope that this brings some clarity to the message.

Thanks,

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:45:18 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Beats out of court

Here's my attempt at getting the Beats out of court:

1. What do you think was the impetus for Kerouac's stylistic change after

_The Town and the City_? Peer pressure? Jazz? The freedom which comes

with having that first novel under your belt?

2. What do you make of Burroughs' use of contemporary music as the score

for some of his spoken word pieces? Does this move him into the realm of

postmodernism or just show him keeping the beat alive?

3. Did anyone see Ginsberg reading the lyrics to "Miami" by U2 on the T.V.

show about the making of the album "Pop"? What did you make of it? I found

the combination (U2 and Ginsberg) incredibly intriguing.

Answer one or all one and all.

Let the bickerers bicker, let the accusors accuse, let the liars lie, let

the lovers love.

James M.

P.S. Whoever said that the anti-estate thread was like the Ginsberg case

over "Howl" remember, "comparisons are odious"(<--Kerouac).

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:45:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Re: Stealing

"Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut

at the foot of a mountain. One evening a thief visited the hut only to

discover there was nothing in it to steal.

Ryokan returned and caught him. 'You may have come a long way to visit

me,' he told the prowler, 'and you should not return empty-handed. Please

take my clothes as a gift.'

The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away.

Ryokan sat naked, watching the moon. 'Poor fellow,' he mused, 'I wish

I could give him this beautiful moon.'

Stolen from _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones: A Collection of Zen and Pre-Zen

Writings_. Stolen by Paul Reps. Callously distributed by Anchor Books.

Thoughtlessly published by Doubleday, 1989.

James M. (<--copyrighted)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:59:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Beats out of court

In-Reply-To: <199705231945.MAA09759@freya.van.hookup.net>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, James William Marshall wrote:

> 1. What do you think was the impetus for Kerouac's stylistic change after

> _The Town and the City_? Peer pressure? Jazz? The freedom which comes

> with having that first novel under your belt?

Yeah, first novel, found his own voice, etc. It seems many times that a

writer's first work is the test that they can actually fulfill it and handle

the form, and in their later stuff they're free to unself-consciously fill

up the pages with what they need to without worrying about novels poems and

form. Like Ginsberg's early works, "Drakar Doldrums" and those other ones.

Completely different form anything he ever did since. Or that WSB co-written

thing about the Star-Spangled Banner. All these works smack of deep thinking

but they're all almost comedically derivative & stereotypical of what they

probably thought "should" be a poem, novel etc. Later the words -- or

thoughts -- just guided themselves, I would say. They learned how to trust

their own minds.

> 2. What do you make of Burroughs' use of contemporary music as the score

> for some of his spoken word pieces? Does this move him into the realm of

> postmodernism or just show him keeping the beat alive?

I see it as an extension of his cut-ups and tape exercises of the 60s.

Taking recordings of the spoken word and adding other sounds noises messages

etc. to it, esp. music of the 'young people' -- ie. contemporary music -- to

infiltrate the youth consciousness with his word and further propogate his

life-works.

> 3. Did anyone see Ginsberg reading the lyrics to "Miami" by U2 on the T.V.

> show about the making of the album "Pop"? What did you make of it? I found

> the combination (U2 and Ginsberg) incredibly intriguing.

I would like to see this. Anyone have a tape of it I could copy, or know the

details like what show it was on?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:00:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Burroughs and beat history

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

>

> I would suggest his greatest influences were not other writers, they

> were, Wilheim Reich, ie orgone box etc., drugs, and life in a whole

> nother lane we don't even want to know about.

i think it undersells burroughs to just consider the drug and underworld

side. some have reported that he turned to that stuff out of boredom.

he studied some anthropology at Harvard before turning away from that

life. it seems interesting to me that the culture of the time brought

together this group of people from very different backgrounds but all

seemed to have boredom or disenchantment of some sort to life at the

time.

i've heard he liked to read about card tricks and detective stories.

Spengler's Decline of the West (which i haven't read) seems to have been

influential. I'm interested in this sub-thread of the beat history

thread and will do a bit of digging but can certainly use others' help.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:05:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Burroughs and background music

James William Marshall wrote:

>

> 2. What do you make of Burroughs' use of contemporary music as the score for

some of his spoken word pieces?

i like it.

Does this move him into the realm of postmodernism or just show him

keeping the beat alive?

i've always thought bill burroughs was postmodern when postmodernists

were in diapers. hmm. the use of music seems really connected to his

understanding of the connections between different aesthetics. but

frankly i don't know if the background music was/is his idea or

something suggested by others which he thought might be ...... (fun?)?

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:13:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Makar <dmakar@CCS.NEU.EDU>

Subject: music and OTR

last summer i spent a week along the beach of cape cod 'resting' i spent

most of my time re-reading on the road for a second time. for the longest

time i drifted between reading and sleeping while lying out in the sun

behind the cottage i was staying at. inside my stereo was playing 2 cds

over and over. one was gershwin's greastest hits the other was steely dan

alive in america. i could imagine sal and dean jumping from car to car

from place to place choreographed to the gershwin tunes of the 40's era. i

found the steely dan (named from a wsb line in nl) songs moved the

thinking and feeling of the novel. gershwin's fast mighty loud and soft

tunes carried the action and steely dan carried the american emotion. to

this day as i hear and listen to parts of g or s.d. i can think of

passages from on the road. there's no better way for me to re-live those

great memories. anyone else have similiar or music and reading stories?

-Dave

David Makar <dmakar@ccs.neu.edu>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:14:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Thomas Pynchon

Is Thomas Pynchon beat? I love, but can't understand, his work. I am

not sure if he is beat or not.

What about TS Elliot? J Alfred Prufrock seems beat, but there is so

much packed in between the lines and in his references and allusions

that I bet one could never finish a completley annotated version of his

collected works. On the other hand, we have Old Possum?

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:18:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>

Subject: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

Good Day Beat-L

In November '96, in Toronto, I had the pleasure of hosting a reading and

discussion group by Allen Ginsberg. As a result, through the kind

indulgence of first Michael Cakebread & then Andrew Lampert, Beat-L was

brought to my attention. Since that time, as time permits, I have been

lurking the list, mining much amusement & information.

On June 20, in Toronto, I will be hosting a performance by Jim Carroll &

Richard Hell, two performers who I believe, fall under the beat umbrella.

Anyone who is interested in this event can find additional information on

our web page @ www.interlog.com/~mushroom. In addition, if anyone has

questions they would like directed at Jim or Dick, let me know and I will

see what I can find out during their stay.

The organization that I am a part of, mushroom enterprises, is a loose

collective that seeks to bring alternative views and perspectives to Toronto

audiences. Past performers hosted include: John Giorno, John Cale, Annie

Sprinkle, Townes Van Zandt (definitely beat), Lydia Lunch, Candida Royale,

Bobby Seale, Michael McClure, Guy Clarke, Fran Lebowitz, Crispin Glover and

AG. We are always seeking suggestions of suitable artists to promote...

Any and all suggestions from the admirable minds of Beat-L would be appreciated.

Cheers

Dave R

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:20:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Who was that guy?

Diane.

--

This sesame seed is bigger than my head!

--the guy from the McDonald's

commercial

--

Who was the guy who did a comic strip/book, Never Eat Anything Bigger

Than Your Head?

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:21:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: San Francisco

I will be traveling to San Francisco in early June. I intend to go to

City Lights. Can anyone offer ideas on particularly "beat" sites to

check out. Thanks.

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:24:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970523130626.3e27166c@mail.interlog.com>

dave!

so wonderful to hear that richard hell (who saved, in part, the 70s for me)

is on the road with jim carroll, who i've followed from the start: do you

think that audios will become available from tour?

brings to my mind televsion, as well

crinlkly yet wet stained wallpaper on boarding house stairs, the real bite.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:29:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: San Francisco

In-Reply-To: <3385FC42.2528A746@scsn.net>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I will be traveling to San Francisco in early June. I intend to go to

> City Lights. Can anyone offer ideas on particularly "beat" sites to

> check out.

Besides the front of the store where a legendary beat photo was taken with

lf, nc, rl and others, I hear they got a whole isle in the back dedicated to

just beat authors.

har har har

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:33:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Ethical lawyers are beat??????

Subject:

FYI: New Illinois Ethics Opinion on E-mail

Resent-From:

tech@scbar.org

Date:

Fri, 23 May 1997 16:05:52 -0500

From:

cgm@npjp.com

Reply-To:

tech@scbar.org

To:

tech@scbar.org

CC:

sross@interlegal.com

I thought beat was beaten and beatific, so I thought maybe I would

inquire to see if anyone is interested in the most recent opinions by

the Illinois Bar about "ethics" and lawyers. From my experience as a

lawyer, Billy the Kid had more than many lawyers I know!!!! Not to

mention Billy the Burroughs!!!!

Well, what about Gravity's Rainbow and the erection signaling a V-2

rocket incoming. I thought that was beat. What about lawyer's with

ethics, umm, that doesn't seem beat to me. I guess I will not send the

body of the post.

And hey, sarcasm rules on the web, check out the twinkle in my

typing!!!! ;-)

--

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:38:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read. he sat

on a lawn chair with a small refrigerator next to him and he pulled out

beers during the reading. During questions one man who had asked

stupick anal questions like do you think you write real literature asked

if he thought any one would take him serious if he sat there and drank

beer. B's response was to say, here have one, then proceeded to throw

an open beer to the guy, it twirling like a helocopter blade sprewing us

all. We sat there thinking wow. now that guy had to be beat related.

I wish i could figure out what theatre that was. there were many great

readings there.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:51:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: lawyers in the mix

In-Reply-To: <3385E5FF.2FC14DAA@scsn.net>

At 02:46 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Im sorry, but I don't see how backbiting, name calling, getting lawyer

>in

>the mix, and other going ons are 'helping' anything.

>

>woah, as a lawyer, I am like the government and I am here to help.

>

hahaha..

*laughing till i peed my pants*

you should give your day job.

yr pretty goddamn funny.

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:00:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

In-Reply-To: <3386005D.368C@sunflower.com>

At 03:38 PM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote:

>when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

>read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read. he sat

>on a lawn chair with a small refrigerator next to him and he pulled out

>beers during the reading. During questions one man who had asked

>stupick anal questions like do you think you write real literature asked

>if he thought any one would take him serious if he sat there and drank

>beer. B's response was to say, here have one, then proceeded to throw

>an open beer to the guy, it twirling like a helocopter blade sprewing us

>all. We sat there thinking wow. now that guy had to be beat related.

>I wish i could figure out what theatre that was. there were many great

>readings there.

>patricia

>

>

patricia:

if you can remember the name of the theater, of anything that might be of

interest to me (which would be just about anything), please let me know.

ive gotten in contact with a few of the beat-l'ers since im living in

frisco now. plus buk is one of my favs and am greatly interested in

anything he does.

ttfn.

"The most beautiful woman in town"

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:20:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: San Francisco

Walk up the street (Broadway) north a couple of blocks from City Lights. On

the the right there a small park and a cathedral across the street from it.

(I think the cross street may be Stockton).

I think this is mentioned in Big Sur, or if not in real life kerouac laid

there and drank beer with Philip Whalen.

At 04:21 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I will be traveling to San Francisco in early June. I intend to go to

>City Lights. Can anyone offer ideas on particularly "beat" sites to

>check out. Thanks.

>

>--

>

>Peace,

>

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:36:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <970523124937_1557891213@emout05.mail.aol.com>

At 12:49 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>To the "General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick...

For clarification, this "long nick name" was given to me by a friend of

mine. its meant to be sarcastic.

>

>Lisa, you may think you know more than the rest of us, and God Bless you I'm

>sure you do about some things, but that doesn't give you the right to tell

>everyone else what to do.

I have nor will I ever tell anyone "what to do". I am not the only person

who is sick of the bullshit. What I have done is state my opionion, which

is my right to do. And if you don't like what *I* have to say then you can

delete my posts as well. I gave you and the handfull of those involved

another option: Start your own list. And those who want to hear the gossip

treadmill can happily subscribe to that list as well. I joined this list to

learn more about something that intrested me, not to hear bullshit and

gossip between those that are in the know. Excuse me for being born when

majority of these people were out fucking/drinking/smoking and writing.

Many of the names mentioned are irrelevent to me because they are side

characters in this huge drama. You seem to forget that not everyone here

is as clued in to the 'scene' as you are.

>

>Lisa, if you're getting 500 e-mails a day why don't you figure out a way to

>manage that. I'm no tech heavy but I figured out very early on that AOL

>allows me to have more than one screen name and this one you see here is

>dedicated to the Beat-l only. If a techno-phobe like me can manage that

>trick it oughta be a slam dunk for somene who prides herself on her technical

>prowess.

Excuse me? Perhaps if you simmered down on your anger, you would re-read

what I wrote in the first place. This account "used" to genereate 500 mails

a day, till I moved some stuff over to another address. I have 15 email

accounts, with three being active and of two being primary. The world does

not exist around AOL or any of its subsidaries. The only reason I kept this

list on this account is because of the volume of mail it generates, and

lately half of it being bullshit.

>

>Congratulations, Lisa, you're the first person to ever tell me to "Fuck-Off"

>on this or any other list. Put's you in very good company with the

>ever-mature Mr. Chaput who's very first post to Nicosia included the essence

>of maturity "Fuck You Gerry".

I pride myself on being non conformist.

>

>Lisa, you amaze me in other ways too.

I amaze a lot of people it seems.

>You say you're on "auto-delete" for

>all estate related posts and then proceed to tell us everything that is being

>said. You are one

>amazing person.

Again, you are misquoting me. I never said I had the list on 'auto delete'.

This mail comes through Eudora, a gui mail client. After reading the first

couple of thousand messages over the last few months that I said to hell

with it. Kept watch on the thread and delted anything having to do with the

estate sage. Then it died down for awhile, then I moved my mail, and

started reading again. Thats when I picked up on the tread and saw all the

complaints. Now, if I hadn't been delting the messages like i have been for

the past month or longer, would I have NOT voiced myself sooner? Yes

genuis! I would have. It wasn't till i saw all the complaints about it,

kept reading more of the thread that I deceided to speak up.

>

>With all due respect to you and evryone else calling for the silencing of

>this thread - hit your delete keys. Unsubscribe. Do whatever floats your

>boat, but don't you dare tell me this topic is not relevant.

jerry, jerry, jerry, jerry, jerry <patronizing>. You don't own this list.

The topic of Jack's archieves is yes important, but not the bullshit and

the lying, the namecalling and the backstabbing, and everything else

inbetween. Plus jack is NOT the only beat that lived!!!! and i will no

unsubscribe nor will i keep my mouth shut. I have just as much say here as

YOU do about what is relevent and what is not relevent on the list. And

maybe if you stepped back and looked at WHY people are asking for the

silencing of the thread, you would see why so many people are so upset.

And another reason why this gets me, is because i live with this shit day

in and day out. my bf is a media personality. i have to deal with the

rumors, the namecalling, the slander, the 'is <insert bf's name> home?"

with me going "sorry you have the wrong number". Its an invasion of

privacy. We don't want our personal life dragged into the public spotlight,

and what YOU and many other people seem to forget that is that is what your

mainly doing when you bring up all the old gossip threadmills and the

fighting over who has a bigger dick. Its lost all its meaning for being

about jack's archieves, and you know it.

>The tone is

>harsh, yes. And no one recognizes that more than me. And you aren't helping

>to calm it by telling me or anyone else to "Fuck-Off". But the topic is

>relevant as hell.

Its only relevant because your involved. If you weren't I highly doubt that

you would be saying any of this nor making a big fuss over any of it.

Personally, I could care less. I stated my opinion, and people replied. I

am not on any sides here, nor do I want to be.

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

>*************************************************************************

>A general person-liking "I don't claim to be better than anyone else" guy.

>

>

Yes, your so original, that you had to steal my sig? *laugh* Whatever

floats your boat!

ps: don't piss on the electric fence!

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:46:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Durand <LCKerouac@AOL.COM>

Subject: FYI: Lowell CELEBRATES Kerouac!

For those interested in Celebrating Jack Kerouac and his art in the

company of friends and fellow enthusiasts, the 10th Annual Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will be 2-5 October 1997, in Lowell, MA. The

3rd Annual Beat Literature Conference sponsored by UMASS-Lowell will take

place 3 October at the University.

This year's theme will be "Kerouac Celebrates Lowell" and will include a

tribute to Allen Ginsberg.

More soon. We're putting the schedule together now. I've spoken with the

Sheraton Hotel and they will make rooms available at a special rate to

festival goers as they did last year.

If you want to be on a direct email list, send me your address. If you

want our hard copy mailing, send me your postal address. We are also

working on a web site for this year's event.

Mark Hemenway

President, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:35:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

At 04:18 PM 5/23/97 -0400, David Redfern wrote:

>On June 20, in Toronto, I will be hosting a performance by

>Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

Hmm, why do things always fall on the day of a final exam?!?!?!

Why do Intersession finals always seem to fall on my birthday?!?

My final exams in Aug. better not mess with Dylan dates or

else!!! {;^>

Keep up the great work David!! Keep bringing em to

Toronto!!

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:35:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Dear R. Bentz Kirby:

Welcome to the list -- I'm fairly new to it myself --- but the animosities

and accusations that flowed much more freely about three weeks ago revealed a

lot. Glad to see a "legal" viewpoint -- that might change the tone of many

exchanges.

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:39:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

Well, Lisa, like I said, you are one amazing person.

And regarding your "long nick name", it's obvious your friend knows you quite

well.

Hey, Lisa, I'd love to match wits with you further, but my parents drilled it

into me as a young man that I should not duel with an unarmed opponent.

ta ta,

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:39:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Early Morning Thoughts

How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

>>I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

>>in Lowell, Massachusetts?

>

>(note****a tape of this radio conversation has widely circulated from a

>source unnamed in California...)

>

(Paul A. Maher)

Dear Paul: May 23, 1997

Your apologetics for Mr. Chaput and Mr. Sampas give me a hearty laugh.

I suppose Jan Kerouac's income tax returns were also "widely

circulated from a source unnamed in California."

Widely circulated? How many people on the Beat-List have received a

copy of the KQED radio show from San Francisco on which George Tobia talks

about Jan Kerouac selling a warrant that belonged to her mother? Don't all

raise your hands at once. (Chaput, please put your hand down--we know you

have one.)

Off to shoot some hoops,

Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:41:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

At 06:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Dawn B. Sova wrote:

>Glad to see a "legal" viewpoint -- that might change

>the tone of many exchanges.

Sez the spider to da fly...

ekiM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:44:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

At 03:38 PM 5/23/97 -0500, Patricia wrote:

>when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

>read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read.

Sounds like the "Red Vic" (I believe that's the name - there's

a bed'n'breakfast next door?) on Haight St.

Could be my faulty circuiting?

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:01:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow..

Dear David:

PRICELESS response re: the potential website!!!

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:40:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Beats out of court

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 May 1997 12:45:18 -0700 from

<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Just to start the ball rolling, I think there were several things that

contributed to Kerouac's change of style. Holmes once mentioned that he

thought the war seemed to speed life up for his generation. Maybe this

was reflected in the newmusic and maybe the beat of the music caused

them to feel time in a different way. Drugs may also have played a role

in terms of Kerouac's changing style. And there was Neal Cassady--the

fastest man alive--and his famous Joan Anderson letter. I'm tired and

thinking to clearly now but I'll be glad to jump on this thread again if

people want to continue it.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:28:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

M. Cakebread wrote:

>

> At 03:38 PM 5/23/97 -0500, Patricia wrote:

> >when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

> >read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read.

>

> Sounds like the "Red Vic" (I believe that's the name - there's

> a bed'n'breakfast next door?) on Haight St.

>

> Could be my faulty circuiting?

> Mike

yes yes, neat, thanks

p

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:13:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <970523183906_1124034530@emout07.mail.aol.com>

At 06:39 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, Lisa, like I said, you are one amazing person.

>

>And regarding your "long nick name", it's obvious your friend knows you quite

>well.

>

>

>Hey, Lisa, I'd love to match wits with you further, but my parents drilled it

>into me as a young man that I should not duel with an unarmed opponent.

>

>ta ta,

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

>

>

Well as my mother told me, if you can't say something nice, then come over

and sit by me!

Its not about "matching" wits, but heck, if your going to argue with "me"

you might as well

A: read what I post instead of paraphrasing it.

b:if your going to quote me, might as well quote what was said instead of

inserting what you *think* was said. Saves a lot of time and engergy.

ttfn.

lisa

--

Lisa M. Rabey

Internet and Computer Consultant

San Francisco, California

http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

**************************************

General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:19:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: For Gerry and friends

In a message dated 97-05-22 22:06:02 EDT, Tim Gallagher wrote:

<< I'd much rather hear these guys slug it out verbally than your impolite

rantings.

James, do us a favor and simply don't read their fighting. I like to read

it.

>>

Tim:

Name calling just seems to be part and parcel of it. It has been very

interesting to learn about the estate issues. Gerry is too important a

scholar to be pushed off the list by people who respond to his every posting

with insults. Several times intelligent, interesting and important posts of

his have had insulting responses. I suspect both sides need a reminder to

lower the decibel level. Otherwise their mothers should send them to bed!

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:18:27 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: to levi and all

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 May 1997 11:45:01 -0400 from

<country@SOVER.NET>

Isn't it good to have Marie C. back with us! Love that Pound!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:17:25 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

In-Reply-To: <3386005D.368C@sunflower.com>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

> when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

> read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read. he sat

> on a lawn chair with a small refrigerator next to him and he pulled out

> beers during the reading. During questions one man who had asked

> stupick anal questions like do you think you write real literature asked

> if he thought any one would take him serious if he sat there and drank

> beer. B's response was to say, here have one, then proceeded to throw

> an open beer to the guy, it twirling like a helocopter blade sprewing us

> all. We sat there thinking wow. now that guy had to be beat related.

> I wish i could figure out what theatre that was. there were many great

> readings there.

> patricia

>

Well, that's bukowski, not that I ever saw the guy or anything. His poems

were definitely semi-beat, altho' he probably wouldn't have admitted it.

Like beat with his feet on the ground... or actually more like beating his

head into the ground.

Olly R.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:10:34 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Beat History

In-Reply-To: <3385E8A6.CB77F85@scsn.net>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Would Tom Wolfe of Electric Koolaid Acid Test and Hunter Thompson of

> Fear and Loathing qualify as "beat."

perhaps not "beat", but certainly "good"... Kool Aid Acid Test is quite

amazing.

Olly.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:14:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

--- On Fri, 23 May 1997 18:41:13 -0400 "M. Cakebread"

<cake@IONLINE.NET> wrote:

At 06:35 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Dawn B. Sova wrote:

>Glad to see a "legal" viewpoint -- that might change

>the tone of many exchanges.

Sez the spider to da fly...

ekiM

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

Look, I am a Lawyer and I only know one that I would trust!!!

Me.

Peace,

--------------------------------------------------------

Name: R. Bentz Kirby

E-mail: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>

Date: 05/23/97

Time: 20:11:51

This message was sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage

NetManage - delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions

--------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:23:00 -0700

Reply-To: rholton@okanagan.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rob Holton <rholton@OKANAGAN.NET>

Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon

In his introduction to Slow Learner, his collection of early short

stories,

Pynchon details the important Beat influence on his work and calls

himself

post-Beat. There are quite few connections.

Rob Holton

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> Is Thomas Pynchon beat? I love, but can't understand, his work. I am

> not sure if he is beat or not.

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:36:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Beats out of court

Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> Just to start the ball rolling, I think there were several things that

> contributed to Kerouac's change of style. Holmes once mentioned that he

> thought the war seemed to speed life up for his generation. Maybe this

> was reflected in the newmusic and maybe the beat of the music caused

> them to feel time in a different way. Drugs may also have played a role

> in terms of Kerouac's changing style. And there was Neal Cassady--the

> fastest man alive--and his famous Joan Anderson letter.

Bill,

Please, i am unfamiliar with the famous Joan Anderson letter. I am sorry

if this makes it seem like beat 101 but, a short history would be

appreciated. I am just beginning to visualize the casts of characters.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:45:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: booze and the guys

my list

Ken kesey, drinking vodka and grapefruit juice with ice (in a large

thermos) one afternoon in the KU union, pre press conference

wsb vodka (vod) and coke with ice after 4:

jk quart of jack daniels a day? did he ever do boilermakers?

p

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:29:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat List T-Shirt Update

In-Reply-To: <338515C8.752@sunflower.com>

>> If you only want the poster or program by itself, the

>> price is $15.00 for the one item.

>> Jeffrey Weinberg

>> Water Row Books

>> PO Box 438

>> Sudbury MA 01776

>> Tel 508-485-8515

>> Fax 508-229-0885

>> EMail Waterrow@aol.com

JW,

Just saw the above. Hope I'm not too late.

I'd very much like a poster. It's Friday night, 8:30, don't want to bother

you at this time. I'll call in the A.M.

Looking forward to seeing the Beat-L t-shirt design.

Appreciate you working this out for everyone.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:37:20 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: San Fran Correction

There's another thread about an old hippy remembering San Francisco. Maybe

this one should be an old punk rocker remembering San Francisco.

I told the fellow who will be in SF to go up broadway to the park.

Broadway is east west. Go North up Columbus.

It is thre blocks up or so.

City Lights is at Columbus and Broadway.

It's a short walk to the park where jack hung out.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:41:20 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters Interview

Jerry Cimino wrote: . . .

> Well, folks, I've done my due diligence. Ann Charters may not be talking on

> this list and she may not be the president of the Gerry Nicosia fan club, but

> she doesn't contradict his arguments either, at least not in this interview.

> In fact, she supports them.

Jerry--

Which shows that she has class. Nicosia simply refers to her as a

Sampas stooge (and probably on his payroll), despite the fact that her

work on Kerouac is certainly at a minimum as substantial as his, and I

would argue considerably more .

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:51:26 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: San Francisco

Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> On Fri, 23 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> > I will be traveling to San Francisco in early June. I intend to go to

> > City Lights. Can anyone offer ideas on particularly "beat" sites to

> > check out.

>

> Besides the front of the store where a legendary beat photo was taken with

> lf, nc, rl and others, I hear they got a whole isle in the back dedicated to

> just beat authors.

>

> har har har

Or go to the Mission district, where it would be happening if Beat was

now.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:53:23 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

> read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read. he sat

> on a lawn chair with a small refrigerator next to him and he pulled out

> beers during the reading. During questions one man who had asked

> stupick anal questions like do you think you write real literature asked

> if he thought any one would take him serious if he sat there and drank

> beer. B's response was to say, here have one, then proceeded to throw

> an open beer to the guy, it twirling like a helocopter blade sprewing us

> all. We sat there thinking wow. now that guy had to be beat related.

> I wish i could figure out what theatre that was. there were many great

> readings there.

> patricia

Patricia,

I have no idea what the theatre would have been, could have been a

number of venue's--what part of town? But good old Buk was an LA

boy--not an SF local.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:57:14 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Early Morning Thoughts

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

How many people on the Beat-List have received a

> copy of the KQED radio show from San Francisco on which George Tobia talks

> about Jan Kerouac selling a warrant that belonged to her mother? Don't all

> raise your hands at once. (Chaput, please put your hand down--we know you

> have one.)

> Off to shoot some hoops,

> Gerry Nicosia

Gerry,

I never got a tape of the show, I heard it while driving to work. As

you know living here the Krazny (sp?)program has a pretty wide

listenership.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:39:07 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Thoughts for Jack

I bow to Pam Plymell, let the fight go on as far as I'm concerned.

Let's just not forget who the subject is. We're talking about Jack

Kerouac here, and it's hard for me to imagine that as he sat in the Six

Gallery expertly flicking the tops of cheap wine bottles and getting the

crowd fired up while Allen Ginsberg got ready to make them all famous

that he saw ahead to this sorry mess.

I SOMETIMES TALK TO

KEROUAC WHEN I DRIVE

Jack?

Yesterday I thought of something

I never had a chance to tell you

and now I don't know what it was

Remember?

Lew Welch

SMALL SENTENCE TO DRIVE YOURSELF SANE

The next time you are doing something abolutely

ordinary, or even better

the next time you are doing something absolutely

necessary, such as pissing, or making love, or shaving or

washing the dishes or the baby or yourself or the room,

say to yourself

"So it's all come to this!"

Lew Welch

Sitting here drinking and smoking and thinking about all this shit, but

what I really am doing is listening to John Lee Hooker and Van Morrison

doing their thing--

"Dr put you on milk, cream and alcohol"

"You need to go see a Dr. instead of your favorite nurse"

"Backbiters and syndicators hang around outside your door"

AS for me, I know I'm not going to the Dr--but might start calling my

favorite nurses. Have a good Memorial Day everyone. People die in

wars.

James Stauffer

Lew Welch said, in a much less PC world

COMPORTMENT

Think Jew

dance nigger

dress and drive Oakie

I say

Think Czech

dance Brazilian

dress and drive Italian

smoke Humboldt County

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:47:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Early Morning Thoughts

At 03:39 PM 5/23/97 -0700, you wrote:

> How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

>>>I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

>>>in Lowell, Massachusetts?

>>

>>(note****a tape of this radio conversation has widely circulated from a

>>source unnamed in California...)

>>

> (Paul A. Maher)

>

>Dear Paul: May 23, 1997

>

> Your apologetics for Mr. Chaput and Mr. Sampas give me a hearty laugh.

****I am not "apologetic" for anyone, when there is a statement that can be

amended by something I know of differently, I will state it "heartily..." I

would do the same for you.

> I suppose Jan Kerouac's income tax returns were also "widely

>circulated from a source unnamed in California."

> ***I do not know about that...

Widely circulated?

well....I got a tape from a tape from a tape froma tape etc.etc

etcetcetcetcetcetc

How many people on the Beat-List have received a

>copy of the KQED radio show from San Francisco on which George Tobia talks

>about Jan Kerouac selling a warrant that belonged to her mother? Don't all

>raise your hands at once. (Chaput, please put your hand down--we know you

>have one.)

> Off to shoot some hoops,

> Gerry Nicosia

>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:19:24 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: old hippy trying to remember san fransisco.

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> M. Cakebread wrote:

> >

> > At 03:38 PM 5/23/97 -0500, Patricia wrote:

> > >when i was young old, i went to san fransisco and went to hear a local

> > >read, bokowski, he sat on a stage in an movie theatre and read.

> >

> > Sounds like the "Red Vic" (I believe that's the name - there's

> > a bed'n'breakfast next door?) on Haight St.

> >

> > Could be my faulty circuiting?

> > Mike

> yes yes, neat, thanks

> p

Still mostly a movie theatre and still going strong.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:23:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

Dear ekiM:

>From MY point of view, it might be more "sez the fly to the spider"!

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:09:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

tiffs make me happy

they are fuuunny

continue

----------

: From: Lisa M. Rabey <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: a calm request

: Date: Friday, May 23, 1997 6:13 PM

:

: At 06:39 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

: >Well, Lisa, like I said, you are one amazing person.

: >

: >And regarding your "long nick name", it's obvious your friend knows you

quite

: >well.

: >

: >

: >Hey, Lisa, I'd love to match wits with you further, but my parents

drilled it

: >into me as a young man that I should not duel with an unarmed opponent.

: >

: >ta ta,

: >

: >

: >Jerry Cimino

: >

: >

:

: Well as my mother told me, if you can't say something nice, then come

over

: and sit by me!

: Its not about "matching" wits, but heck, if your going to argue with "me"

: you might as well

: A: read what I post instead of paraphrasing it.

: b:if your going to quote me, might as well quote what was said instead of

: inserting what you *think* was said. Saves a lot of time and engergy.

:

:

: ttfn.

:

: lisa

:

: --

:

: Lisa M. Rabey

: Internet and Computer Consultant

: San Francisco, California

: http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

: **************************************

: General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:40:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon

Comments: To: Rob Holton <rholton@OKANAGAN.NET>

--- On Fri, 23 May 1997 17:23:00 -0700 Rob Holton

<rholton@OKANAGAN.NET> wrote:

> In his introduction to Slow Learner, his collection of early

short

> stories,

> Pynchon details the important Beat influence on his work and

calls

> himself

> post-Beat. There are quite few connections.

>

> Rob Holton

>

>

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> >

> > Is Thomas Pynchon beat? I love, but can't understand, his

work. I am

> > not sure if he is beat or not.

>

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

---------------End of Original Message-----------------

Well, I know he plays on urban myths with the alligator in the

sewer thing. And I always thought that several of his ideas

seemed very beatific. But, as a lawyer, I am sure that I don't

know shit from shinola.

;-)

--------------------------------------------------------

Name: R. Bentz Kirby

E-mail: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>

Date: 05/24/97

Time: 00:27:51

This message was sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage

NetManage - delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions

--------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:43:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

At 12:23 AM 5/24/97 -0400, nwaD wrote:

>Dear ekiM:

>

>

>>From MY point of view, it might be more "sez the fly to the spider"!

!!nwaD no thgiR

ekiM

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:54:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

At 03:44 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Derek, Marie, Lisa, et al...

>

>I agree a lot of this is distasteful. I agree too much of it is juvenile.

>But it is serving a very large purpose.

>

>Look at who does *nothing* but shout and moan. The very same people who

>refuse to answer honest questions. These people have raised the level of

>rhetoric time and time again because they have no legitimate argument to

>make. Now Chaput is calling for a truce. Why? Because he knows he's

>beaten. Tracy gave him a gift by asking if he was really serious about his

>"Gerry is a thief because he xeroxed Jack's letters" post which allowed him

>to come back with "it was a joke".

This above is a good example of what Lisa was talking about how you

misquote. As in her post below.

A: read what I post instead of paraphrasing it.

b:if your going to quote me, might as well quote what was said instead of

inserting what you *think* was said. Saves a lot of time and energy.

I may not be a scholar but usually when you put quotation marks around what

you are calling someone's post, it means they actually said that.

You see Jerry the reason why is if someone reads your post they may not have

had the opportunity to see the ORIGINAL POST and they would actually think I

said this-----"Gerry is a thief because he xeroxed Jack's letters"----- when

in fact I never did say that now did I Jerry? In fact I never said the word

"thief" nor did I say ONLY it was illegal to xerox what I said was it was

illegal to "xerox and sell" an authors letters, that when he told people it

was for his personal use and then turned around and sold the letters that

THAT was illegal. It was just a point I made. My opinion and I'm not a lawer

nor do I want one (Thanks anyway and Welcome.-R. Bentz Kirby-beat attorney)

Does anyone on the list think they can copy an authors words whether it is

in the form of a letter or manuscript or book or whatever and then sell it

for cash. It really doesn't matter if it was to a University or to someone

on the street. If you could do that it wouldn't be very good to be a writer

now would it. Gerry should be proud of his archive. I mentioned long ago I

thought his book was and I quote "Great!" What he did putting together that

ENTIRE archive is historic, grand , an amazing accomplishment and I'm not

trying to be funny I'm being very serious. An invaluable tool for scholars.

At todays prices it probably would be worth as much as Ann Charters ( I

heard quarter million) archive. I repeat the archive is not "closed" it is

just that SCHOLARS who want to do research will need permission from the

person who was interviewed to read those interviews, or letters and if that

person is deceased then their heirs must give permission and yes that would

include Kerouac's heirs. Unless something has changed since I was last at

the archive and talked to Martha Mayo personally about it a few months back.

By the way my father's letters from Jack ( YES XEROX COPIES I have the

originals) and interviews are in that archive and I have given MY permission

slip to the University. I am trying to be silent about this whole estate

thing out of respect for the many people on this list including Bill Gargan

the list administrator who requested WE stop this type of thing. I am

willing to. I have been on this list and have enjoyed talking about Kerouac

AND THE BEATS, and I would like to keep it that way. I just couldn't let a

terrible misquote like that go by. Jerry to say I'm "beaten" after I agree

not to back stab is pretty low. Also tell Gerry YES I DO GET SOME

INFORMATION from John Sampas I'm not denying that I get SOME info from him.

I sure have gotten a lot from Gerry too! I'm done talking to you and Gerry

and Jo unless you want to talk about Kerouac and the beats. Out of respect

for people on the list not because I'm "beaten". Phil Chaput-Lowell, Mass.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:00:31 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> --- On Fri, 23 May 1997 17:23:00 -0700 Rob Holton

> <rholton@OKANAGAN.NET> wrote:

> > In his introduction to Slow Learner, his collection of early

> short

> > stories,

> > Pynchon details the important Beat influence on his work and

> calls

> > himself

> > post-Beat. There are quite few connections.

Oh no, not the "is he beat" theme. IMHO, not beat, but definitely cool.

Wouldn't trade reading Gravity's Rainbow, V , and Lot 49 for much.

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:35:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

At 03:40 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>

>> Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

>> I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

>> but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

>> and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

>> mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

>> (Levi Asher)

Levi, May 23, 1997

Just to set the record straight, Levi, I came on here saying I

wanted a serious discussion about the future of Jack Kerouac's archive, and

the next thing I know you're helping to mire up the situation yourself by

telling everyone on the Beat-List that I pulled PARROT FEVER from your

LITERARY KICKS web page with no just explanation, just arbitrarily, and

somebody--you or somebody else, I can't remember--used the expression that I

was "as bad as Sampas." So I had to spend two or three posts just getting

that straightened out, and of course it turned out (after searching my

files) that I had sent you a 400-word letter in July, explaining in detail

that I could no longer let you have PARROT FEVER for free because Jan

Kerouac's heirs--whom I legally serve--demanded that PARROT FEVER provide

some income for them.

I have a hard time believing you couldn't remember receiving that

detailed explanation. At the time you piped up with your false charge,

several other people were throwing similar false charges against me, and

your contribution helped get the bonfire going. So let's spread the blame

around a bit more, even if that means looking in the mirror.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:06:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Ann Charters Int./ Words Put in My Mouth

>Jerry--

>

>Which shows that she has class. Nicosia simply refers to her as a

>Sampas stooge (and probably on his payroll), despite the fact that her

>work on Kerouac is certainly at a minimum as substantial as his, and I

>would argue considerably more .

>

>J Stauffer

>

>

Dear James, May 23, 1997

One of the reasons I've been known to lose my temper here is because

people like you keep putting words in my mouth that I never said. Mr.

Chaput claims I said Stella Sampas forged Gabrielle Kerouac's will. But he

can't produce the quote with any real citation. Now you say I called Ann

Charters "a Sampas stooge." Can you please produce this quotation, cite

source, date, etc.?

The fact is, I never called Ann that. Ann and I were colleagues who

had a good working relationship (she called me for help several times, which

I gave) until late in 1993. At that time, she told me she was going to

censor the SELECTED LETTERS of Kerouac because that was the only way she

could keep her job working for John Sampas--i.e., she could only put in the

letters he approved. I wrote Ann a long letter, admonishing her that I did

not think she was taking the right path, that I thought in the interest of

Kerouac scholarship she should refuse to let Sampas dictate what letters

went into the collection. And if Sampas fired her and hired someone else to

do his bidding, so be it. She would have stood up for an uncensored edition

of Kerouac's letters.

After that point, Ann ceased communicating with me almost entirely,

and became openly hostile to me on various occasions. I guess she figured I

was "messin'" with her career. I still respect the Kerouac work she has

done, and the hours she has put in, but I feel she had made some very bad

choices; and the harsh things she said about Jan Kerouac*, many times in

public, were unjustified and not very considerate in view of the fact that

Jan's father has earned her considerable money and reputation over the years.

(At Black Oak Books in Berkeley, for example, she said Jan Kerouac

was "low class" and "rude like her father."--source, San Francisco archivist

Steven Kushner, who taped her that evening.)

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:00:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Phil, you're right, I stand corrected. You did not say "Gerry is a thief

because he xeroxed Jack's letters". That is what you were insinuating, of

course, but those were not your words.

I remind myself of the father in Flashdance right before he shakes Patrick

Swayze's hand... "When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong". And in this little game

of "gotcha" I was wrong to put those words in quotes. I should have said I

was paraphrasing instead.

If you want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then answer me

this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it. I'm sure

others will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about

something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:04:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Burrough T-Shirts

In the latest issue of GQ it says Burroughs has been tapped to shoot

holes in Tshirts with his picture on them to be sold for $99.

Dean Palmer

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 03:39:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burrough T-Shirts

Dean, we have those shirts, shot full of holes and signed by WSB himself in

stock for $50. Check our website www.kerouac.com or call us at

1-800-KER-OUAC for details.

Jerry Cimino

Fog City Facts & Fiction

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:16:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: The Music. . .

On Fri, 23 May 1997 13:25:07 -0400 Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

writes:

>Beat friends,

>So, I

>figured it might be a good idea to drag this list, kicking and

>screaming,

>into the discussion and hope that it might spark at least a side

>thread for

>those who are bored with WWIII.

Hey Bruce,

Were you the one who was looking for a jazz time line about six months

ago? Let me know if you're interested. I've worked up a brief one with

writers and jazz artists and I'd be happy to share.

Regards,

jd

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:34:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Music. . .

Jim, I'd liketoget

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:37:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Music. . .

Yeow! I know I've had a hair trigger lately, but it usually ain't that bad!

What I meant to say was, Jim could you send me a copy of that Jazz timeline?

Thanks!

Jerry C

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:37:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Music...

In a message dated 97-05-23 15:25:24 EDT, you write:

<< Jack wrote some jazz criticism as well, was really into it all, in fact

the main reason I love his writing more than the others so much is the way he

captures the swing of bop>>

Also, something that people don't like to talk about because it conflicts

with their 'image' of Kerouac, is that he listened to classical to Frank

Sinatra.

Kerouac is not all that he is jazzed up to be,

Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 04:29:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Phil Chaput wrote:

>

> Does anyone on the list think they can copy an authors words whether it is

> in the form of a letter or manuscript or book or whatever and then sell it

i would guess that certain word montage approaches would be considered

acceptable. it's been 7 years or more since i read Nimmer on contracts

so i can't recall the details. my guess is that it depends on the

percentage of the original quoted material use OR (i don't recall the

standard) but somethign about significant difference or somesuch.

word montages and cutups are probably safe game. but that's just a

hunch.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 06:46:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Music...

In-Reply-To: <199705231910.AA012944636@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>

just listening to jack read his own work in his own voice has changed ny

reading of his works forever. he reads his own work like bebop rhythms, and

one of my favorite pieces is his reading of RR in October Earth on the CD

boxed set with steve allen improvising in background to keep the rhythms on

piano. i often put on kerouac tapes, CDs, etc and then scan the lines, as i

listen to the flow and beat of his voice. many great experiments, one of my

favorite was listening to him read this charley parker pomes. my stanzas

etc do not conform to the printed text, but to the rhythms and meter of

jack's own voice as i hear them.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:17:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: the truth is often relative to the mother of invention.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.94.970523155015.5179O-100000@seka.nacs.net>

i keep thinking that it's yesterdays tomorrow

(i suspect that the clocks

are running backward

eternally dragging me

foward and toward

yesterday's tomorrow)

be here now!

the chorus

of my dead fathers chant in my ears.

(i have a list of questions streching out

to infinity plus one!

(excitedly i begin to ask for

proof of the holy goof

of life and love,

heaven and hell,

and the kerouac estate)

then,

*poof!*

they abandon me....

leaving behind a calendar!

i fall into

the abyss

between what happened

and what might have been,

i dive deeply into

the holy cracks

of sidewalks in eternal past,

where

time is

time is

time is

eternally poised

on the threshold

of a day already

lived.

mc

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:29:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: the truth is often relative to the mother of invention.

Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> i keep thinking that it's yesterdays tomorrow

>

> (i suspect that the clocks

> are running backward

> eternally dragging me

> foward and toward

> yesterday's tomorrow)

>

> be here now!

> the chorus

> of my dead fathers chant in my ears.

>

> (i have a list of questions streching out

> to infinity plus one!

> (excitedly i begin to ask for

> proof of the holy goof

> of life and love,

> heaven and hell,

> and the kerouac estate)

> then,

> *poof!*

> they abandon me....

>

> leaving behind a calendar!

>

> i fall into

> the abyss

> between what happened

> and what might have been,

> i dive deeply into

> the holy cracks

> of sidewalks in eternal past,

> where

> time is

> time is

> time is

>

> eternally poised

> on the threshold

> of a day already

> lived.

>

> mc

beautiful. ... i would have said time is "poisoned" rather than "poised"

but i guess that's why your morning messages always uplift my mood and

set the day off on the right foot.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:33:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: William Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Influences on the Beats

Dear Jim:

You might want to check with the Rare Book and Manuscript Dept. at Columbia

University, they have all the correspondence between Ginsberg and Trilling

and it is quite an insight into their relationship. Maybe they have

Kerouac's as well but I haven't looked into that. Mark Van Doren was also an

important instructor in both their lives (maybe even more so than Trilling)

and you should check into that angle as well. Van Doren read the Doctor Sax

manuscript and was very critical of it, as I recall. Good luck.

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:18:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Shelley Waite <Stimpette@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

Please send me a copy of the Anstee essay

Shelley Waite

1720 N. Orchard unit D

Chicago, IL 60614

Thanks!

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:39:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Music...(NBC- jazz)

Good morning all,

For all you jazz fans out there, I suggest you run out

and buy the re-release of Miles Davis' _Kinda Blue_

on Columbia. They've added an extra track - an alternate

take of "Flamenco Sketches." Beautiful!!

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:52:43 -0400

Reply-To: bocelts@scsn.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: What lettes sold by whom to whom under what circumstances?

Race wrote:

>Phil Chaput wrote:

>>

>> Does anyone on the list think they can copy an authors words whether it is

>> in the form of a letter or manuscript or book or whatever and then sell it

Phil:

Who sold what letters to whom for how much under what circumstances and

what are you talking about? While there are matters of concern to me about

the availability of Kerouac archives and the condition under which they are

being maintained, I am investigating this to come to my own conclusions.

But, questions such as this are filled with inuendo and imply that somebody has

done something wrong or illegal. If you are going to put this out in the wild,

please be specific so that we can, if we care to, investigate and answer your

question.

Are letters in anyway copyrighted material? Once you write a letter it is no

longer "your" property if you mail it. It is the property of the person who

received

it. So, does copyright etc attach to it?

I don't know the answer. But, I would like to know the question first!

Peace,

Bentz

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:17:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: The Music. . .

In-Reply-To: <19970524.031612.2814.2.juancito@juno.com>

hey jim,

i'd be interested in that list as well.......

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:19:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mick Parsons <mparsons@BIGBOY.NETCRAFTERS.COM>

Subject: Re: Music...

In-Reply-To: <970524043729_1391965443@emout09.mail.aol.com>

oh, I don't know...

I rather enjoy classical now and again, when the mood strikes; besides,

rarely is anyone all that their image creates them to be...

mick

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the passionate lover of fine style exposes himself to the hatred

of the masses; but no respect for humanity, no false modesty, no

conspiracy, no universal suffrage will ever force me to speak the

unspeakable jargon of the age, or to confuse ink with virtue."

Mick Parsons -Baudelaire

mparsons@netcrafters.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:30:06 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Pranksters' Home Base On the Block / Kesey selling legendary '60s

cabin in La Honda

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=MN5082.DTL&directory=/c

hronicle/archive/1997/05/24

In the spirit of keeping everyone up to date on the financial affairs of

Beat and Post Beat figures, an update on Kesey's real estate empire.

J Stauffer

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<H2>Pranksters' Home Base On the Block<br>Kesey selling legendary '60s

cabin in La Honda </H2>

<I>Michael McCabe, Chronicle Peninsula Bureau</I><P>

<P><B></B></P>

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<p> Ken Kesey's legendary log cabin in La Honda, site of some of the most

mind-bending parties of the 1960s, is on the verge of being sold.

<p> The prospective buyers are a nice, quiet Stanford University couple who

want a place to write.

The yellow two-bedroom cabin set in a grove of redwood trees

served as home base for Kesey -- The Chief -- and his Merry Pranksters at

the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

<p> It was on this three-acre lot that Kesey, author of the novel ``One Flew

Over the Cuckoo's Nest,'' and his friends would climb aboard their famous

day-glo school bus for freaky excursions to the Haight, Berkeley, and points

way beyond.

<p> Along the way they held ``acid tests'' in public ballrooms, accompanied

by the music of the Haight-

based Grateful Dead, and free bowls of LSD-spiked punch.

<p> Reached by telephone at his farm in Pleasant Hill, Ore., last night,

Kesey was in no mood for questions.

<p> ``First of all, it is not a nice little cabin,'' he growled. ``It is a

big nice old house in the middle of a redwood forest.'' Then he turned the

telephone over to his wife, Faye.

<p> Faye said they are selling the cabin partly to get some money after

settling out of court with a San Mateo County sheriff's deputy who sued

them. The deputy said he suffered severe neck injuries after falling off a

bridge on Kesey's property four years ago as he was responding to a call.

<p> ``We also thought it was time to sell it because we are so far away and

it was starting to get run down. Ken feels a little sad about selling.''

<p> On the other hand, she said they both feel good about the couple from

Stanford who are buying it. The asking price was $239,000. The sale has not

closed.

<p> ``I think they want to do a little writing. There certainly is a lot of

good aura there.''

<p> She said Kesey put the finishing touches on his second novel, ``Sometimes

a Great Notion,'' at the cabin.

<p> In 1965, Kesey and 13 pals -- including Neal Cassaday, the inspiration

for one of Jack Kerouac's central characters in ``On the Road'' -- were

arrested for growing marijuana on the property. At the time, Kesey said he

was in the bathroom painting flowers on the toilet bowl when he was attacked

by a state narcotics officer who ``looked too much like Odd Job in the James

Bond movie `Goldfinger.' ''

<p> The house became a focal point for the ``backwoods mountain hippies'' of

the era, said neighbor Jim Warren of Kings Mountain. The cabin was featured

in Tom Wolfe's book, ``The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test'' and other works

chronicling the antics of Kesey and the Merry Pranksters.

<p> ``I remember after Kesey got busted the first time, they put out a yellow

and black roadside marker that read, `No Left Turn Unstoned,''' laughed

Warren. ``It was really a great, funky place.''

<p> Kesey bought the cabin in the late 1950s, when he was a creative writing

student at Stanford University. He lived there until the early 1970s with

Faye and two children.

<p> Since then, Kesey has rented the cabin to tenants, but over the past year

it has been vacant. Because the cabin was never really locked, vandals have

stolen several relics of the Merry Prankster era, Faye Kesey said. Pieces of

artwork, collages, and other mementos are now missing from the shrine.

<p> ``There are a lot of great memories at that house,'' Faye Kesey said.

``We both feel confident that the new owners will take very good care of it

and treat it with respect.''

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--------------2A50F546420--

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:34:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Music...

I agree with mc, the sound of Jack's voice has given me a much greater sense of

his rhythm when I read his books. Not all writers have Jack's great ability or

wonderful voice for reading but we are lucky to have tapes of Jack. I highly

recomend to all beginning readers of Kerouac to grab a tape of Jack reading

from his own work, nothing like it.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:22:55 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: More Prankster stuff

The May 25 issue of the SF Examiner Magazine has an interesting story on

Carolyn Garcia Adams (Mountain Girl). Cover story, with an excellent

selection of photos from the old days and now. Worth going out to your

local bookstore that carries out-of town Sunday papers for those of you

who follow Prankster/Dead stuff. The Sunday edition is a joint

Examiner/Chronicle production.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:29:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Gargolye magazine

This may be repeat information as I think I lost some mail during a recent

thunderstorm here in the outback So excuse me if this is old news but the

latest issue of Gargoyle Magazine, number 39/40, has an excerpt of Joan Haverty

Kerouac's autobiography in it (this would be Jan's mother). Give it a look

should you spy a copy.

One more thing, any fans of Larry Eigner out there? Re-reading some of his work

as he died a few months ago, I was happy to have my memory re-freshed to what a

fine poet he was. Sorry he had to die for me to look at his work again...but if

you get a chance, give Larry a read. Adios to a great poet.

dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:27:02 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Music....

Marie wrote:

(snip, snip)

>

>one of my favorite pieces is his reading of RR in October Earth on the CD

>boxed set with steve allen improvising in background to keep the rhythms on

>piano. i often put on kerouac tapes, CDs, etc and then scan the lines, as i

>listen to the flow and beat of his voice. many great experiments

Hi, marie! This is one of my favorites, too (and I have you to thank for it,

since you sent me a copy!). The word "experiment," as you use it here, is

exactly right, too. Some of those cuts with Steve Allen improvising in the

background are experimental, and very successful. "Pull My Daisy" (to shift to

JK film work) is also an experiment. Perhaps the willingness to experiment, and

bring experimental accomplishments to a polished, performed state is JK's

greatest achievement in terms of connecting with the works of Charlie Parker. I

see much of Jack's work as the result of the same kind of practice that a jazz

band does.... sweaty pores, baggy clothes, perhaps in some garage somewhere,

hammering out the next notes, or finding possibilities for new ones... no, that

didn't work--back up and try some new notes... no, that didn't work well,

either--here, try this... yes, YES! that's it. That's just the right sound

(word). Ahhhh.... Ommmm.... peace.

Great stuff! Great thread, here!

Regards, ---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:30:31 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Marie's Poem

Ahh, Marie, what a jewel you are!

Thanks for the sparkling poesy.... nice piece of work.

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:24:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re-re-vision.

In-Reply-To: <3386DF15.5171@midusa.net>

the truth is often relative to the mother of invention 5/24/97

>

> i keep thinking that it's yesterdays tomorrow

>

> (i suspect that the clocks

> are running backward

> eternally dragging me

> foward and toward

> yesterday's tomorrow)

>

> be here now!

> the chorus

> of my dead fathers chants in my ears.

>

> (i have a list of questions streching out

> to infinity plus one!

> (excitedly i begin to ask for proof

of the holy goof

> of life and love,

> heaven and hell,

> and the kerouac estate)

> when,

> *poof!*

> they abandon me....

>

> leaving behind a calendar!

>

> i fall into

> the abyss

> between what happened

> and what might have been,

> i dive deeply into

> the holy cracks

> of sidewalks in eternal past,

> where

> time

is

> time

>

> is

eternally poised

> on the threshold

> of a day already

> lived.

>

> mc

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:35:43 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: question 'bout John Cage archives.

In-Reply-To: <199705231623.AA282864597@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>

At 10.37 23/05/97 -0500, Nick Weir-Williams wrote:

...

>himself. The John Cage archives (or one third of them - he split up

>manuscripts, correspondence, and other articles between three places) are at

>Northwestern and are so meticulous and so organized and so easy for scholars

>to use.

...

gentle Nick,

i am very interesting to John Cage archives,

it is possible to connect & retrieve documents through

the internet? every feedback is welcome,

my best greetings,

Rinaldo.

*24 may 1996. * one year on the Beat-L * 24 may 1997*

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:43:41 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Mr. Chaput Put on Notice

On May 24, 1997, Phil Chaput wrote:

"...what I said was it was illegal [for Gerald Nicosia] to 'xerox

and sell' an author's letters, that when he told people it was for his

personal use and then turned around and sold the letters THAT was illegal

... Does anyone on the list think they can copy an author's words whether it

is in the form of a letter or a manuscript or book or whatever and then sell

it for cash."

Dear Mr. Chaput, May 24, 1997

This is the second or third time on this Beat-List that you have

accused me of criminal activity. To accuse a person of a crime, when they

have not committed one, is both slander and libel, and you can be brought to

court for damages for bringing such harm to another person.

I AM PUTTING YOU ON NOTICE RIGHT NOW, THAT IF YOU FALSELY ACCUSE ME

OF ANY MORE CRIMES, I WILL BRING A SUIT AGAINST YOU FOR SLANDER AND/OR

LIBEL, AND SEEK DAMAGES FROM YOU TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Let's look at this accusation of yours:

Exactly what crime did I commit, by selling my research archive for

MEMORY BABE to the University of Massachusetts?

You claim that because my archive contained xeroxed Kerouac letters,

among many other items, I committed a crime.

WHAT crime, Mr. Chaput? A crime has to have a name. I can think of

only two that might apply.

Do you claim that these xerox letters were STOLEN PROPERTY?

Either the xeroxes belonged to me, and I could sell them, or they

were stolen, and I could not.

I paid for those xeroxes, they were my property, and I sold

them--not for profit. (It would be hard for anyone to contend I made a

profit from my archive, which sold for $7,500, when the 300 interviews alone

required 50,000 miles of traveling, hotels, phone bills, etc., that easily

totalled more than $7,500. And there were more than 25,000 separate pieces

in this archive!)

If these xeroxes are "stolen property," then let Mr. Sampas go over

to the Lowell Police Station and ask the Lowell police to make the library

turn the xeroxes over to him.

WHY HASN'T MR. SAMPAS DONE THIS? The xeroxes have been sitting

there for the past ten years!

The only other crime I can think of, in this case, would be

COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. However, if it is a crime for someone TO XEROX ANY

DOCUMENT THAT HE HAS NOT HIMSELF WRITTEN, PURELY FOR SCHOLARLY USE, then

almost every college student in America is guilty of copyright

infringement--and that is absurd.

What we are talking about now is a SINGLE XEROX OF EACH LETTER, used

for material in the writing of my biography. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT

MAKING MULTIPLE COPIES, ADVERTISING, and SELLING THEM.

NO ONE HAS EVER ASSERTED THAT SCHOLARS AND WRITERS CANNOT MAKE

SINGLE COPIES FOR THEIR OWN USE.

There was an issue a few years ago about professors, who xeroxed 30

or 60 or 90 copies of certain books for all their students, so that the

students would not have to buy the books. What happened was the publishers

complained--I believe thru the Authors Guild--and some sort of fund was set

up, so that when university professors do this kind of thing, money is

contributed to a general royalty fund to reimburse the publishers for lost

revenue. I am not sure of all the details, and would be happy if someone

like Nick Weir-Williams at Northwestern could clarify that.

BUT AGAIN, THERE HAS BEEN NO ACTION, COURT RULING, etc., THAT HAS

PROHIBITED THE INDIVIDUAL COPY FROM BEING MADE FOR SCHOLARLY USAGE. TO THE

BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, NO ONE HAS EVER WON A COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT SUIT FOR

SUCH ACTIVITY.

If Mr. Sampas feels the copyright infringement has occurred because

I placed all of my research materials in a library (a crime I have never

heard anyone being accused of), THEN LET HIM BRING A COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT

SUIT AGAINST ME--with the knowledge, of course, that there are severe

penalties for bringing frivolous lawsuits.

Could it be that Mr. Sampas has not brought such a suit against me

in ten years because he knows it would be deemed a frivolous lawsuit?

If I am not guilty of either THEFT or COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT, what

is the crime I am guilty of, Mr. Chaput? And if I am not guilty of any

crime of this nature, then you have been slandering and libeling me here on

the Beat-List for the past week.

And that entitles me to take legal action against you. You are

forewarned.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:59:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Who Gave Out Jan's Income Tax Returns?

Dear Phil, May 24, 1997

You have allowed a very big question to go unanswered.

You claimed, originally, that you were not getting the material for

your posts from John Sampas. Then I asked about how you got Jan Kerouac's

income statements, and you change your tune and write:

"Also tell Gerry YES I DO GET SOME INFORMATION from John Sampas I'm

not denying I get SOME info from him."

Can you please tell us if you got Jan Kerouac's income statements

from Mr. Sampas?

Because 1) if Mr. Sampas got them from the IRS without permission,

thru some private connection, he has broken the law.

Or 2) if Mr. Sampas got them from Sterling Lord, who was both his

and Jan Kerouac's agent, then Mr. Lord has breached his fiduciary

responsibility to Jan Kerouac, because an agent is required to keep the

financial affairs of his client COMPLETELY CONFIDENTIAL.

As Jan Kerouac's literary executor, I would like to know if Mr.

Sterling Lord has acted improperly as Ms. Kerouac's agent, since that would

be grounds for a legal action against Mr. Lord.

So, Phil, THIS IS AN IMPORTANT MATTER! Please tell us the source of

Jan Kerouac's income statements that have been shown to you, since in your

May 22 post you claimed to have EXACT FIGURES FOR JAN'S 1993 and 1994 INCOME.

Your earliest reply will be appreciated. Thank you.

Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:21:44 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Gargolye magazine

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 May 1997 13:29:04 EST from

<breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Dave, do you know if this is the same piece that was published several years ag

o in a small pamphlet or is this a different piece?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:27:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Law suits

Gentle listmembers, I don't think Beat-l is the proper place to give or

take legal depositions. Let's leave any talk of lawsuits in the

attorney's office where they belong or at least threaten each other

privately.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:34:11 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

May 24, 1997

Attila Gyensis writes:

"...the financial assistance that I have received from Mr. Sampas

amounts to a grand total (let me check my calculator) $0, nada, zero, nulla,

nothing, zip."

May I suggest, Mr. Gyensis, that you are being a little coy in the

matter of advertisements that have magically appeared in your magazine,

DHARMA BEAT?

In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin, Mr. Sampas's publisher. Your

fall 1995 issue even had TWO full-page ads from Viking. You received a

half-page ad from Rykodisc for a record that was produced by Jim Sampas.

You received a full-page ad for BIG SKY MIND, the Buddhist Beat collection

with which Mr. John Sampas was intimately connected (the editor states: "A

special debt of gratitude is owed to John Sampas, the Literary Executor of

the Estate of Jack Kerouac for his long-standing magnanimity..."). You also

received a full-page ad for New York University's Beat conference, which

again was indebted to Mr. Sampas (he provided Jack Kerouac paintings for

display in the university museum, etc.)

Are you going to tell me that all those ads were mere accidents?

No other Kerouac publication ever got that kind of major

advertising, including the KEROUAC CONNECTION, which has had a far more

distinguished 12-year history in terms of printing detailed Kerouac/Beat

scholarship, memoirs, etc.

OK, I expect only more denials, but I felt this stuff ought at least

to be put into the record.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 17:41:10 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

At 08:27 PM 5/24/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Gentle listmembers, I don't think Beat-l is the proper place to give or

>take legal depositions. Let's leave any talk of lawsuits in the

>attorney's office where they belong or at least threaten each other

>privately.

>

>

Dear Bill, May 24, 1997

I beg your pardon, but Mr. Chaput has several times used the

Beat-List to publicly accuse me of criminal actions, of breaking the law.

I think I am fully justified in using the same public forum to tell

him he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is illegal

(slander, libel) and damaging to my professional reputation.

Thank you.

Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:21:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

In-Reply-To: <199705250034.RAA10619@denmark.it.earthlink.net> from "Gerald

Nicosia" at May 24, 97 05:34:11 pm

Gerald Nicosia writes:

> Attila Gyensis writes:

>

> "...the financial assistance that I have received from Mr. Sampas

> amounts to a grand total (let me check my calculator) $0, nada, zero, nulla,

> nothing, zip."

>

> May I suggest, Mr. Gyensis, that you are being a little coy in the

> matter of advertisements that have magically appeared in your magazine,

> DHARMA BEAT?

> In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

> numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin, Mr. Sampas's publisher. Your

> fall 1995 issue even had TWO full-page ads from Viking. You received a

> half-page ad from Rykodisc for a record that was produced by Jim Sampas.

> You received a full-page ad for BIG SKY MIND, the Buddhist Beat collection

> with which Mr. John Sampas was intimately connected (the editor states: "A

> special debt of gratitude is owed to John Sampas, the Literary Executor of

...

The fact that you would speak like this to Attila Gyenis proves to me

what you're doing wrong.

I've hung out with Attila a few times, and he is one of the sweetest,

gentlest most philosophical and non-greedy people I've ever met.

Furthermore, the one time I discussed you and your activities

with him (a few months ago over some beers after he and I

attended the play "Kerouac" together) he was taking your side,

and telling me about some of your good points. You've gone and

turned another friend into an enemy! As you did with me.

Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

Recently at a LaGuardia Airport taxi stand, I saw a great sign:

"BE POLITE! IT'S NICE TO BE IMPORTANT, BUT IT"S MORE IMPORTANT

TO BE NICE". Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the flow

a little more. Estate battles happen. The world survives.

Let's talk about something else. Maybe, to get us off on

a different topic, you could tell us about the Vietnam book

you're writing. I'd really like to hear about it. When do

you expect it will be published?

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:34:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Law suits

In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

professional reputation.

> Thank you.

> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:45:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

In a message dated 97-05-23 16:23:28 EDT, you write:

<< We are always seeking suggestions of suitable artists to promote...

Any and all suggestions from the admirable minds of Beat-L would be

appreciated.

>>

Charles Plymell

Pam

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:53:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: chatfield residence <chatfield@VOYAGER.NET>

Subject: hello

hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined because i

am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many of the

people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question for

research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by,

the "beat generation"?"

if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to me,

or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please e-mail me

at

chatfield@voyager.net

i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would find

annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

thanks.

--amy jean

"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."

-r.e.m.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:48:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: hello

Hi Amy Jean,

Have you yet had a chance to search the web for references on this

question? I actually mad emy way to the list as a result of searching for

refs to Slim Gaillard, which led me to Jack Kerouac and on to the Beat list.

If you're interested and if you can use it I can send you a Netscape browser

bookmark list with many of the relevant sites.Start with list member Levi

Asher's Lierary Kicks site at

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

The short reply to your question, which others will ably expand on

is that Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs - the core of the

Beat generation writers - were very taken with a guy named Huncke, a small

time crook, junkie, man about town, and occasional writer. He talked

regularly about being and feeling Beat.

They added it to their vocabulary and their friend John Clellon

Holmes (author of "Go") talked to Jack Kerouac about being beat and some of

this material appeared in "Go".

It was Jack who first talked about the Beat Generation and Holmes

credited him with that. first conversations were about 1947; "Go was

published in 1952 ;the New York Times published a short piece about Beat

after Gilbert Milstein, an editor there, noticed the reference to the Beat

Generation in "Go" and asked Holmes to supply an article. [much of this is

from Dennis McNally's "Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation".

************

So your question might need to be rethought, since some might argue that

Jack and a small circle of friends WERE the Beat Generation.... "How did

Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by, the "beat generation"?"

Antoine

Would also recommend folowing web site:

http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/beats.htm

The Beat Generation Archives

And

http://enterzone.berkeley.edu/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html

How Beat Happened by Steve Silberman

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:51:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: hello again

Hi again Amy Jean....

And one more, the John Clellon Holmes article This is the Beat

Generation for the New York Times! available at:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/ThisIsBeatGen.html

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:55:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Memory Babe Archive

Dear Friends on the Beat-List: May 24, 1997

I feel it necessary to correct some very misleading information that

Phil Chaput has posted on the Beat-List concerning the MEMORY BABE archive.

He would have you think that the archive has never been closed. For all

intents and purposes, it IS closed, and has been ever since Mr. Sampas went

over there to complain about open access in June, 1995.

It is important that I warn you all, lest you waste your time and

money traveling to Lowell, Massachusetts to make use of this unique and

irreplaceable collection.

HERE'S WHAT YOU'LL BE TOLD WHEN YOU ARRIVE:

You cannot make full use of this collection unless you get

permission from the 300 people Gerald Nicosia interviewed. Never mind that

100 of these people are now dead. You must get permission from the dead

people's heirs.

Where do you start? The university, I was told, has the addresses

of FIVE of these people.

Does that sound like a daunting task? It is more than daunting--it

is AWESOME! I, who created this collection, could not now find all 300

people and their heirs. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Never mind, of course, that all these people consented to be

interviewed for a major biography, knowing full well EVERYTHING THEY SAID

WAS BEING TAPED AND WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR USE IN MY BOOK.

What about the 2,000 xerox Kerouac letters? You can't use those

either, without John Sampas's permission, and he has been known to make

getting his permission a quite difficult process. (Ask Steve Turner, who

wrote ANGELHEADED HIPSTER, if you don't believe me.)

Well, you may say, MR. SAMPAS HAS EVERY RIGHT TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM

READING THOSE 2,000 xerox Kerouac letters. No, he doesn't.

Tomorrow, if I choose, I can read every Kerouac letter at Columbia

University, Stanford University, Bancroft Library (Berkeley), Reed College,

the Newberry Library, and the Humanities Research Center at the University

of Texas, Austin--WITHOUT MR. SAMPAS'S PERMISSION!!!

Surprised? Mr. Sampas has even phoned the University of Texas and

Bancroft Library in Berkeley, to insist that scholars could not see their

Kerouac letters without his permission.

You know what Texas and Bancroft told Mr. Sampas? Sorry, sir, YOU

DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT.

If these libraries are breaking the law by showing Kerouac letters

to scholars, why hasn't Mr. Sampas taken them to court???

It is only because the University of Massachusetts, Lowell, has bent

to Mr. Sampas's will (I might say willfulness) that the MEMORY BABE

collection is closed to the public.

For all of you who care about the importance of this collection,

please know that I AM TAKING LEGAL ACTION to free the MEMORY BABE archive,

and your support could be very helpful.

In the meantime, better think twice before packing your bags for a

scholarly trip to Lowell. Better call librarian Martha Mayo first, and

better have your 300 signed permissions in hand.

Sorry, but that's the way it is-- Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:02:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>

>>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

>professional reputation.

>> Thank you.

>> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

>

>'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

>

>

C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:23:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

>I've hung out with Attila a few times, and he is one of the sweetest,

>gentlest most philosophical and non-greedy people I've ever met.

>Furthermore, the one time I discussed you and your activities

>with him (a few months ago over some beers after he and I

>attended the play "Kerouac" together) he was taking your side,

>and telling me about some of your good points. You've gone and

>turned another friend into an enemy! As you did with me.

>Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

>problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

>serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

>------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

>

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

>

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

>

> ###################################

>

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------

>

Levi, 5/24/97

Bentz Kirby commented about what a "weird scene" it is on the

Beat-List, and one of the weirdest things is how people here keep calling up

down, green red, and enemies friends.

A few nights ago, Attila Gyensis told (lied) to the Beat-L readers

that I had spent years "demanding" to be invited to Lowell by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! (a committee he is or has been a member of). The truth

is, I have never so much as written Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! a single

letter, or even called them on the phone.

Yet, Mr. Gyensis is supposed to be "taking my side."

You were supposed to be my "friend," and you falsely embarrass me

here on the Beat-List, claiming I arbitrarily forced you to pull Jan's

PARROT FEVER from your website (as if I were on some kind of power trip a la

Rod Anstee), when I had already explained to you, in writing, in detail,

that I was being legally constrained by Jan's heirs from letting you publish

the piece (even on the internet) for nothing.

Now I don't expect Mr. Gyensis is getting rich off John Sampas.

When I dropped his name a few posts ago, it was because so much intense

scrutiny of my and Jan's finances has been posted on this net by people like

Anstee and Chaput. So I wanted to turn the tables for a moment, just so

those on the other side would know what it feels like to be asked questions

about every penny you ever earned or were helped to earn.

When Mr. Gyensis makes false (and essentially damaging) accusations

about me, I have to wonder what his motives are, and I would have to be a

fool to think that Mr. Sampas has not been helpful to him in publishing his

magazine.

The bottom line, here, Levi, is not that I'm a mean or vicious

person (ask the 60 ladies over at my mom's nursing home, whom I visit every

day). The bottom line is that I'm tired of an onslaught of vicious,

personal attacks on me--which have all arisen because certain people don't

want to answer the really important questions about what Mr. Sampas is doing

with Jack Kerouac's archive. And I want those people to know that I don't

lie down and play dead at the first shove. I shove back. And if you shove

harder, I shove harder.

I'm ready to lower the intensity of this debate any time the other

side is. Or perhaps more to the point, I'm ready to play clean--without the

Rodman-like kicks, elbows, and body-blocks--as soon as the other side shows

me the same courtesy.

It's them you should be lecturing, not me.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:27:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

> >

> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

> >professional reputation.

> >> Thank you.

> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

> >

> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

> >

> >

>

> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

> Best, Gerry

What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:36:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: hello

At 09:53 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined because i

>am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many of the

>people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question for

>research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by,

>the "beat generation"?"

>if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to me,

>or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please e-mail me

>at

>chatfield@voyager.net

>i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would find

>annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

>thanks.

>--amy jean

>

>

>

>

>"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."

>-r.e.m.

>

Dear Amy Jean-- May 24, 1997

Thanks for giving me the chance to show I don't think about literary

estates and lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji would

never allow that).

Read my biography of Jack Kerouac, MEMORY BABE (from University of

California Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a shorter

version of things by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER (Viking); read

John Clellon Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe, from U.

of Arkansas Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the

catalogue to the Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA (you

can order it from the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and maybe

try listening to HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from Fantasy

Records in Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near California, visit City

Lights Bookstore, the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can have

coffee with the owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in Kerouac's

corner in Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets still

hang out, like Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty Matz.

Beat was a very large community, of which only a small iceberg tip ever got

famous; it was supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in constant

pursuit of joy and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:45:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

At 10:27 PM 5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>>

>> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>> >

>> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging

to my

>> >professional reputation.

>> >> Thank you.

>> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

>> >

>> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

>> >

>> >

>>

>> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

>> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

>> Best, Gerry

>

>What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

>

Hey, Dave,

I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Gargolye magazine

At 01:29 PM 5/24/97 EST, you wrote:

>This may be repeat information as I think I lost some mail during a recent

>thunderstorm here in the outback So excuse me if this is old news but the

>latest issue of Gargoyle Magazine, number 39/40, has an excerpt of Joan Haverty

>Kerouac's autobiography in it (this would be Jan's mother). Give it a look

>should you spy a copy.

>

>One more thing, any fans of Larry Eigner out there? Re-reading some of his work

>as he died a few months ago, I was happy to have my memory re-freshed to what a

>fine poet he was. Sorry he had to die for me to look at his work again...but if

>you get a chance, give Larry a read. Adios to a great poet.

>

>dave B.

>

Dave, May 24, 1997

I believe Jack Foley, who was a close friend of Eigner's, did a

memorial show for him on Foley's radio program (I forget the name) on

KPFA-FM radio in Berkeley. If you call the station, they can probably sell

you a copy of the show, if you're interested.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:58:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

In-Reply-To: <199705250121.SAA23363@netcom.netcom.com>

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

> Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

> problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

> serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

>

> Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the flow

> a little more. Estate battles happen. The world survives.

> Let's talk about something else. Maybe, to get us off on

> a different topic, you could tell us about the Vietnam book

> you're writing. I'd really like to hear about it. When do

> you expect it will be published?

levi and friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the

rap weasels the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing

that's said when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away

from passion and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i

wish the

whole estate battle could be solved with a magic swing of a wand, but

it aint gonna happen that way. none of any waterheaded zen crap will

zone-out a long (and necessary) airing of the two sides' positions. don't

zero in on nicosia as the "bad" guy. levi, you say some very wise things

a lot of the time--and you have a boffo web site--but quit the whining

about nicosia. if you hate the back and forth poison re: the estate

battle, why not get on anstee and chaput, too??? the couple of times i've

read posts reZ: the estate thing, you've been on nicosia's case. perhaps

i am being a bit simplistic here, but ....

we should be (and i am) glad nicosia is rapping on the list--about

anything he wants. if we can think lisa rabey's rap on cocksucking is

okay for the list, why whip out the cattleprods when nicosia et al go

back and forth on the estate thing?

i like reading about the battle.

let's let the camps have it out.

it's much more interesting than all the geek posts from people wondering

whether george bush, george clooney, kesey, socks the cat, and bozo the

clown, etc. are beat or not.

let the voices roll. keep yer fingers on the delete key. and keep yer

heads open. after all, this is advertised as a "forum", right?

regards,

steve

Steve R. Smith

Graduate Teaching Assistant

Department of English

Portland State University

Box 751 Portland, OR 97207

503-725-3556

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:06:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: hello

In a message dated 97-05-24 21:49:37 EDT, chatfield@VOYAGER.NET (chatfield

residence) writes:

<< i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would

find

annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

thanks. >>

Dear amy jean -

what a refreshing and considerate attitude. you are setting a good example.

others who consider themselves Kerouac experts could learn from your gentle

thoughtfulness. Talking about the beats is why we're here, most of us, so you

could never annoy us with that.

In response to your question: sometimes the phrase "beat generation" refers

to the writers and other principals, and sometimes (perhaps less often) it is

used to indicate all the people of that generation. If you want to know how

Kerouac influenced the beat generation writers, you need to realize that he,

Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs are the only ones whom everyone agrees

"belong" as beat writers. They were all friends and they influenced each

other.

It is sometimes thought that Kerouac had more influence on the following

generation - let's call them the hippies for nostalgia's sake! - than he did

on people of his own age group.

I concur with Antoine about the various resources available and would also

recommend

spending some time with the Jack Kerouac ROMnibus CD-ROM if you can borrow

(or afford) one.

Good luck!

Jul

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:44:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

>If you want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then answer me

>this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it. I'm sure

>others will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about

>something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

>

>Thanks Jerry, I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story and

it's kind of a sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the exact

date) I was 13 or 14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and the two

of them were going to go into Boston for a night out on the town. My father

in his grand wisdom had thought it would be a memorable experience for me to

go with them, probably so I could get to know Jack and maybe he was thinking

that at some point in my life I would realize what an incredibly cool

experience it would have been. So anyway they drove up to where I was

hanging around at the time (a park in downtown Lowell) called Lucy Larcom

park. I was a long haired hippie at the time and my father lived in another

area of town than I did because my parents had divorced. That's why I hadn't

met Jack before because my father mostly went to his house and picked him up

because he didn't drive and my father also had a car. He had only been over

to my father's house a few times, although Jack had met my father's mother

my Memere and he also introduced his mother Gabrielle to my Memere. Memere

to Memere. So anyway he called me over to the car and introduced Jack to me.

He was sitting in the back of the car and I reached in and shook his hand

and said hello. My father then told me that they were going into Boston for

the night and he asked me if I wanted to go with him. Like a

fool-moron-jerk-idiot- I declined and told them politely thanks anyway but

I'd would rather just hang around the park. There was some kind of action

going on and at the time (I was probably going to score and get high or

something) I wasn't into Kerouac then. I just knew him as the famous Lowell

author and good friend of my dad's. My brother on the other hand was really

into Jack and had read every single book Jack had written. I realized later

that Jack had probably gotten into the back seat that night assuming I would

go with them and maybe it was kind of an insult but then again maybe it was

just so Jack could be more comfortable. What I remember of him that night is

that he already had a good head start on his night out. In other words he

was already starting to get pretty drunk and I could tell. He also looked

fat to me at the time and red faced. Looking back I wouldn't now think he

was fat but that's what I thought of him at the time. I guess I was

expecting something else. So that's about it the only other time was about 2

or 3 years later in 69 when they buried him. I was going to St. Joseph's

High School at the time which is just down the street from St. Jean the

Baptist church where they had the funeral mass for Jack. I skipped out of

class and walked down the street and stood in the doorway of Voyer's florist

shop. I knew Joe Voyer he was a pretty cool guy (he also knew Jack and my

dad) and let me hang out or hide out while I watched my father as a

pallbearer carry Jack's body into the church. The night I didn't go with

them Jack and my dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go

with them and of course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable

experience of his life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all

kinds of questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen

would ask. I have been trying to get him to write a story about it for a

long time. He promises me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.

Jack did mention me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you

found your boy yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had

started my own "on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in

1968 asking my dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and

letter and I cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad

and Jack that night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.

Thanks for asking and listening. Phil

I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about

meeting Jack or any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

... The night I didn't go with

>them Jack and my dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go

>with them and of course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable

>experience of his life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all

>kinds of questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen

>would ask. I have been trying to get him to write a story about it for a

>long time. He promises me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.

>Jack did mention me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you

>found your boy yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had

>started my own "on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in

>1968 asking my dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and

>letter and I cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad

>and Jack that night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.

>Thanks for asking and listening. Phil

>

>I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about

>meeting Jack or any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.

>

Phil, May 24, 1997

I remember sitting in your dad's kitchen, and Tony telling me that

same story. I think I even put it on tape.

Thanks for your memories.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:01:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Bush

Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and

cross bones.

Peace,

Hillary, no, Bill yes,

Snoopy yes, Socks the Cat no

me, yes, my wife, no

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:09:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: hello

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 09:53 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined

> because i

> >am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many

> of the

> >people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question

> for

> >research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he

> influenced by,

> >the "beat generation"?"

> >if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to

> me,

> >or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please

> e-mail me

> >at

> >chatfield@voyager.net

> >i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people

> would find

> >annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

> >thanks.

> >--amy jean

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's

> confined."

> >-r.e.m.

> >

> Dear Amy Jean-- May 24, 1997

>

> Thanks for giving me the chance to show I don't think about

> literary

> estates and lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji

> would

> never allow that).

> Read my biography of Jack Kerouac, MEMORY BABE (from

> University of

> California Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a

> shorter

> version of things by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER

> (Viking); read

> John Clellon Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe,

> from U.

> of Arkansas Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the

> catalogue to the Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA

> (you

> can order it from the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and

> maybe

> try listening to HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from

> Fantasy

> Records in Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near California, visit

> City

> Lights Bookstore, the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can

> have

> coffee with the owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in

> Kerouac's

> corner in Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets

> still

> hang out, like Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty

> Matz.

> Beat was a very large community, of which only a small iceberg tip

> ever got

> famous; it was supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in

> constant

> pursuit of joy and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

Amy Jean:

If you is interested in beat and Kerouac, what better and cooler thing

could there be than to post an question and get an answer from one of

the preeminent biographers of Kerouac. Man, the www is the collective

unconscious. Can you imagine the chat rooms with Neal, Jack, Allen,

Vidal, Snyder, Corson, and Rexroth ranting through the night.

Wow, like a holy vision, it lights up my night!!!!

You don't know how lucky you are. And I am glad that I do know how

lucky I am to be here today.

Thanks Gerry, and you are just going to have to let the shit slid man.

Sometimes it works out better that way.

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:14:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Phil Chaput wrote:

> >If you want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then

> answer me

> >this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it.

> I'm sure

> >others will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about

> >something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.

> >

> >

> >Jerry Cimino

> >

> >Thanks Jerry, I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story

> and

> it's kind of a sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the

> exact

> date) I was 13 or 14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and

> the two

> of them were going to go into Boston for a night out on the town.

Thanks for the story. As I just said when I came across Gerry's post to

the young inquirer, Man, this is a great place to be. I do appreciate

it.

Peace,

PS,

Wasn't something written by Jack, or by a biographer about a kid from

Lowell being along on a trip?

Well, the best I can say is that Jack died on my 16th birthday. October

21.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Philip Whalen

Question re: Philip Whalen:

Can anyone tell me how much of Whalen's poetry is still in print and

from who?

And, does anyone know where/in-what-book his poem "big, high song to

somebody" was published?

Thanks, Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: ...your story Phil and Jack in Brooklyn

That was great to read Phil. Thanks very much. Tell your brother

that you now have a bunch of salivating expectant readers waiting...and that

you won't give out his home address if he writes the damn story! I can put

it in with this and the piece that you sent me by Nicosia about Jack and

your Dad on the road to Montreal. Thanks.

Having grown up in Brooklyn - the Bedford-Stuyvesant/Flatbush/Park

Slope area - I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me where in Brooklyn

Jack was staying with his aunt while he was going to Horace Mann.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:32:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Gentlemen! (Phil and Gerry)!

What a delight to get both of your posts back to back, one after another on

my email. Nicosia sitting in Chaput Sr.'s kitchen talking to Phil's brother

about Jack. All of us having been caught in the cross fire the last few

days, who'd have thought it! :^)

Gerry, what about you? I don't think you ever met Jack in person, but I

could be mistaken. And if not, what got you in to him in the first place.

Maybe we can put the war aside for a little while and talk about the man

himself. And then if and when we start *debating* again maybe things will be

a little more diffused. Whaddya say all? It's a holiday weekend... even in

real shooting wars they usually stop firing on Christmas eve and Christmas

being a long way off maybe this is the next best thing!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:38:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

Gerry,

Is there an easy way to tell whether you actually did tape Tony

telling that story? ...and is it part of the holdings of your archive at

Lowell? Thanks Gerry.

Thanks you also by the way for your kind offer of the signed copy of

"Memory Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an

earlier edition. The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid

succession I had e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and

a phone call! from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any

rate, it's on its way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into

the home stretch on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high

speed! - he had been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each

other's progress) and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going

with. Am now interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it

mentioned several times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit

Knoght, Gregory Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.

How did you come to do the "Memory Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it

from academia / teaching?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:05:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Law suits

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97052420300442@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Gentle listmembers, I don't think Beat-l is the proper place to give or

>take legal depositions. Let's leave any talk of lawsuits in the

>attorney's office where they belong or at least threaten each other

>privately.

However, if suits are filed, please inform the list.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject: Beat and Marriage

>Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and

>cross bones.

-snip-

>me, yes, my wife, no

>

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

Is it possible to be beat and married?

Regards,

Andrew

cosmic@clark.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:27:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> At 10:27 PM 5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >>

> >> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

> >> >

> >> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging

> to my

> >> >professional reputation.

> >> >> Thank you.

> >> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

> >> >

> >> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

> >> >

> >> >

> >>

> >> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

> >> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

> >> Best, Gerry

> >

> >What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

> >

> Hey, Dave,

>

> I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?

> Best, Gerry

i misread. my foul. i like Dennis too.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

Antoine Maloney wrote:

>

> Gerry,

>

> Is there an easy way to tell whether you actually did tape Tony

> telling that story? ...and is it part of the holdings of your archive at

> Lowell? Thanks Gerry.

>

> Thanks you also by the way for your kind offer of the signed copy of

> "Memory Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an

> earlier edition. The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid

> succession I had e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and

> a phone call! from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any

> rate, it's on its way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into

> the home stretch on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high

> speed! - he had been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each

> other's progress) and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going

> with. Am now interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it

> mentioned several times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit

> Knoght, Gregory Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.

>

> How did you come to do the "Memory Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it

> from academia / teaching?

>

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

Right now I'm reading Memory Babe and Charter's Kerouac at the same

time. very different styles both incredible. I also checked you Dharma

Lion about Ginsberg but haven't really cracked it yet. though three at

the same time might be fun.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 05:13:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: A bright sunny day in May

Hey Mark,

I got the Kerouac Quarterly, thanks.

Hows it going. Still I haven't made it to Portland but I'm enjoying my stay

here in Northern California. I might be back to New York for a week or so in

July but I don't know it I'll make it up north.

well, now I think that things will start to slowly start dying down. But it

has been an interesting ride. I personally think I got a little scholarship

out of this whole thing, since I learned a few new things.

later, Attila