=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 May 1995 22:22:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject:      Viral Ponderings

 

If "language is a virus from Outer space," is poetry a vaccine?

And

Quien es? eh?

                Yours in Bill,

                        Alan C. Reese

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 29 May 1995 22:28:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject:      Quien es?

 

Does anyone know if Wm Burroughs Communications (PO BOX 147/Lawrence,KS)

has any network capabilities? I have a fax number, but would like to

know if they are online. If they aren't, what can we do to get them where

they should be?

        Uncle Bill's spirit should be soaring the cyber airwaves before....

                        Yours in Bill,

                                Alan

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 30 May 1995 11:09:06 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Viral Ponderings

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 29 May 1995 22:22:45 -0500 from <S72UREE@TOWSONVX>

 

Only if it's cut-up poetry!

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:33:48 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      otr film

 

I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise.  Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal.  Just to get

the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think?  What pair

of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: otr film

In-Reply-To:  In reply to your message of WED 07 JUN 1995 20:33:48 EDT

 

>I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

>and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise.  Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

>Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal.  Just to get

>the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think?  What pair

>of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

If the above rumour is true, then it substantiates the rumour that

Mr. Coppola is in the biz for the bucks.

Sean Penn and Brad Pitt are fine kid actors... cutey pies. I don't

think that's what's needed for OTR, though. Actually, I don't think the

lead characters need to be necessarily be kids (or those faces we

automatically relate-to as kids'... Michael J Fox, for instance).

Wouldn't it be great to see Lyle Lovett play Dean?

Just like when OTR was announced as a books-on-tape, I'm eagerly

awaiting the product, but I don't expect to be enchanted by the

thing. Besides, I think Dharma Bums and Subteranneans would make

better films.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:28:45 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: otr film

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

 

On Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:28:01 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>>I've heard rumors that Francis Ford Coppola is casting Sean Penn as Dean

>>and Brad Pitt as Sal Paradise.  Kerouac said that he thought Marlon

>>Brando should have played Dean and Montgomery Clift Sal.  Just to get

>>the ball rolling on this discussion group, what do you think?  What pair

>>of actors would you cast as the ideal Dean Moriarty and Sal Paradise?

>If the above rumour is true, then it substantiates the rumour that

>Mr. Coppola is in the biz for the bucks.

>Sean Penn and Brad Pitt are fine kid actors... cutey pies. I don't

>think that's what's needed for OTR, though. Actually, I don't think the

>lead characters need to be necessarily be kids (or those faces we

>automatically relate-to as kids'... Michael J Fox, for instance).

>Wouldn't it be great to see Lyle Lovett play Dean?

>Just like when OTR was announced as a books-on-tape, I'm eagerly

>awaiting the product, but I don't expect to be enchanted by the

>thing. Besides, I think Dharma Bums and Subteranneans would make

>better films.

>Jim

The Subterraneans was made into a movie in 1960.  George Peppard played

Leo Percepied and Leslie Caron played Mardou Fox.  It was full of

gratuitious violence. Kerouac was furious about it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:11:34 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Re: otr film

 

I'd rather see Penn and Pitt reverse roles, Penn as Paradise, Pitt as Moriarty.

 Pitt is beautiful, no doubt, but he is something of a dunderhead who excels at

"noble savage" type roles.  Penn could better carry off the portrayal of the

 sensitive and intelligent Sal Paradise, alter-ego of Jack himself. Especially

 if Coppola uses a 1st person voiceover narration, I think Pitt would be

 disastrous.

I'd like to see Gary Oldman as Paradise and Val Kilmer as Moriarty, but I'm not

 picking.

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."

"Then he was told: Remember all you have seen, because everything forgotten

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:25:56 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

 

I haven't been able to get to alt.books.beat generation through my

netnews group.  Can anyone give me a specific address so that I can try

to subscribe directly?  Thanks.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:32:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Patrick M. Mirucki" <Patriick@IX.NETCOM.COM>

 

>I haven't been able to get to alt.books.beat generation through my

>netnews group.  Can anyone give me a specific address so that I can try

>to subscribe directly?  Thanks.

> 

> 

Well..It looks as though your alreaady subscribed to it. I'm currently

subscribed to the Beat Generation List and received your message.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:16:41 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject:      OTR casting

 

I thought the following message was great advice on possible casting for the

film version of On the Road:

***

I'd rather see Penn and Pitt reverse roles, Penn as Paradise, Pitt as

Moriarty.

 Pitt is beautiful, no doubt, but he is something of a dunderhead who excels

at

"noble savage" type roles.  Penn could better carry off the portrayal of the

 sensitive and intelligent Sal Paradise, alter-ego of Jack himself.

Especially

 if Coppola uses a 1st person voiceover narration, I think Pitt would be

 disastrous.

I'd like to see Gary Oldman as Paradise and Val Kilmer as Moriarty, but I'm

not

 picking.

-

Mark S. Gordon

***

Let's not forget that Dean Moriarty was the alter-ego representation for Neil

Cassady, who was very handsome, as well as rugged--Pitt might work well

indeed (I agree that he'd be better off as Dean rather than Sal).  Val Kilmer

as Moriarty crossed my mind, too, but I wouldn't want to see the Sal/Kerouac

character come off as less physical than Moriarty--Kerouac, in addition to

vying with Cassady in the handsomeness department, was a good-sized, rugged

guy himself (football at Columbia).

    Someone else suggested Lyle Lovett for Moriarty--that would definitely be

interesting, although Lyle would really have to stretch to capture the

speed-rapping manic brilliance of Cassady.

     Let's keep those casting suggestions coming!  Perhaps we can inspire an

alternative, low-budget counterproposal to the Coppola project!

Brian K. Lynch

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:32:43 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject:      a previous message

 

In case this didn't make it to the List.  I was responding to the original

call which mentioned that Kerouac had thought Brando would make a good Dean

and Montgomery Cliff would be the best Sal for the film version of On the

Road:

"I think Kerouac had it about right.  If we try to find those of the

appropriate age in the present time, I'd be interested in seeing Johnny Depp

have a go at Sal and let Anthony Kiedis (have to cut his hair) of the Red Hot

Chili Peppers try on Dean."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:22:27 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Kerouac Conference at NYU

 

Did anyone else attend the Kerouac conference at NYU, held earlier this week.

Here are some snapshot observations:

1. I came away with a heightened appreciation for Kerouac as a poet.  In fact,

I think it may be fair to say that he was a poet FIRST, and a fiction writer

second.

 

2. Gregory Corso is in deep, deep trouble personally and I hope the people who

know and love him (Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, etc.) are trying to save him.

 

3. Kerouac left an incredible crush of material behind: books, journals, poems,

paintings, drawings, letters, notes. It may be that most of what he wrote hasn't

even been released yet.  Not only was this a revelation to me, but it served as

a reminder that writers (which I am) and artists need to be creating all the

time in as many mediums as they can. Never again will I leave my house without a

notebook and pen and not feel a twinge of guilt.  Kerouac may have had failings

as a person - we all do - but his writer's discipline has to be considered the

standard.

 

Mark Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:24:24 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Re: OTR casting

 

In addition to difficulties recreating the breakneck pace of Dean Moriarty's

style, Lyle Lovett would have problems with Dean's overwhelming physicality.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 9 Jun 1995 17:18:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject:      Ann Charters in Framingham, MA 6/17

 

Ann Charters in Framingham, MA

 

Ann Charters, Kerouac biographer, and editor of the recently published

Collected Letters and Portable Kerouac will speak at Border's Bookstore,

85 Worcester Rd (Rte 9), Framingham, MA at 2:00 PM, Saturday, June 17. For

information call (508)875-2321.

 

 

 

posted by tracey on behalf of Lowell appreciates Kerouac!

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 13 Jun 1995 12:43:15 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Road Movie

 

I came upon this professional note in the May issue of PMLA which I

thought I'd pass on:  "Steven Cohan and Ina Rae Hark seek submissions

for a collection of essays on the road movie.  The book seeks to look at

the road movie historically and culturally from a variety of critical

and theoretical perspectives.  Consideration of the road move's

relations to questions of nationalism, sexuality, technology, and genre

are especially welcome; papers examining connections between road films,

road literature (e.g. Kerouac), and television (e.g. Route 66) are also

invited.  Contributors should send 2-page proposals and vitae by 15

August 1995 to both Cohan, Dept. of English, Syracuse Univ., Syracuse,

NY 13244 (fax 315 443-5390), and Hark, Dept. of English, Univ. of South

Carolina, Columbia 29208 (fax 803 777-1302) Preliminary inquiries may be

sent to smcohan@mailbox.syr.edu and hark@hsscls.hssc.scarolina.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:42:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject:      Uncle Bill

 

What's the concensus of opinion out there on WB's appearance in the

Nike commercial?

Does anyone know the physical, mental status of Gregory Corso? Heard he was

doing poorly.

I'm reading Kerouac's letters and find the Charters explanatory interludes

a bit unnecessary, slightly intrusive. and somewhat repetitive. The last

letter from Sebastian Sampas really foretells the coming of Dean Moriarty.

Anyone else out there perusing same?

        Alan C. Reese

        Baltimore

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:21:47 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Uncle Bill

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:42:38 -0500 from <S72UREE@TOWSONVX>

 

At first, I thought some of Charters' footnotes were obvious.  Is there

really a need to identify G.B. Shaw as an Irish dramatist?  Given the

wide audience of the Selected Letters, however, maybe it is necessary.

Teaching freshman at Brooklyn College, it often surprises me how little

they know of literature or history.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:23:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "ALAN C. REESE" <S72UREE@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Uncle Bill

 

Shouldn't a footnote not only be informative, but relevant? For example,

the Shaw note as a case in point. Is it going to help a freshman or any

other ignorant lout who is bothering to read K.'s letters to know that

Shaw was an Irish dramatist? Shouldn't there be something more to

connect the reference to K.'s state of mind, themes, characters, or

whatever? I think by eliminating the unnecessary and redundant in Charters'

footnotes and explanatory notes, the collection of letters could have included

more kerouac letters.

ACR

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 Jun 1995 17:33:17 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject:      Ann Charters Visit (fwd)

 

> Ann Charters in Framingham, MA

> 

> Ann Charters, Kerouac biographer, and editor of the recently published

> Collected Letters and Portable Kerouac will speak at Border's Bookstore,

> 85 Worcester Rd (Rte 9), Framingham, MA at 2:00 PM, Saturday, June 17. For

> information call (508)875-2321.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 Jun 1995 09:36:21 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Uncle Bill

In-Reply-To:  <01HRQGJWYDBM8Y6V76@TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

 

I found it useful to know that Oscar Wilde had been imprisoned for

homosexuality--found it in a footnote in the Kerouac letters book by

Charters.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:44:36 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      kerouac jack's

 

Does anybody know of a restaurant in the Chicago area called Kerouac Jack's?  I

f anyone has been there, I'd like to know what you thought of it.  I'm heading

for Chicago and am wondering if it's worth a visit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:43:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         William Baker <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95062009470883@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

No but look forward to seeing you in the windy city.Bill BakerOn Tue, 20 Jun

1995, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> Does anybody know of a restaurant in the Chicago area called Kerouac Jack's?

 I

> f anyone has been there, I'd like to know what you thought of it.  I'm heading

> for Chicago and am wondering if it's worth a visit.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:40:08 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:43:25 -0500 from

              <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

 

Got your new e-mail address.  See you at the EALS mtg.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 20 Jun 1995 16:38:02 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      What's Burroughs up to?

 

Does anybody have any information about what William S. Burroughs has been up

to recently?  I've read (I forget where) that he isn't traveling much but I

don't know if that means he no longer makes public appearances or reads,

teaches, etc.  I've wanted to hear him speak/perform for most of my adult life

and would greatly appreciate any info anyone might have on the subject, also

anything on recent or upcoming publications.

                                            thanks,

                                            Win Mattingly

                                            gmatt1@ukcc.uky.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:49:25 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject:      Re: What's Burroughs up to?

 

Win,

 

You are right. My info is that WSB does not travel and really doesn't make

public appearances, although he has done telephone hook-ups for the 94 NYU

Conference and one or two others.

 

A book of his letters is being published this year, or is already out. I

don't have the details at hand, but the bookstroe should be able to help

out. You can also call 1-800-KEROUAC for an excellent catalog of current

beat stuff, they may have it. Let me also reccommend "Beat Scene"

Magazine. It's a British publication that does a great job of covering the

beats past and present. The issue before last (I think) featured WSB.

Write: Kevin Ring, 27 Court Leet, Binley Woods, NR, Coventry,

Warwickshire, CV3 2JQ, England.

 

I am co-publisher of "Dharma beat" magazine. We aim to help publicize

Kerouac and sometimes beat related activities, publications and

organizations. Spring 95 included articles on Desolation Peak, Mexico City

Blues, Big Sur and events around the country. Send me your snail mail

address and I will send you a sample if you are interested.

 

 

Mark Hemenway

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:08:49 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         RADLEY-FASCIONE M D <M.D.Radley-fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject:      WSB

 

Win

 

Don't know if you've heard, but Uncle Bill has had a new work recently

published, by Viking in States I think, called My Education (A Book of

Dreams). It's great and covers old Tangier days up to relatively recent

times in Lawrence...Highly recommended, buy it now, you won't regret it.

 

Also, I assume you know about the recordings Bill made with the Disposable

Heroes of Hipophrasy (sp?), Spare Ass Annie, a couple of years ago now

(course you do!)

 

Daniel

 

P.S. Does anyone have, or know where I can get, a definitive list of WSB

works post Western Lands? Any help appreciated.

 

Thanks

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:44:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Richard Centing <rcenting@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac jack's

In-Reply-To:  Your message of Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT)

 

BEAT-L:what would Kerouac Jack's serve:apple pie and coffee?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:14:39 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      WSB letters

 

Someone wanted a citation for Burroughs' letters the other day.  It's

*The Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959.* NY: Viking, 1993.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jim Harrod <jaharrod@UCI.EDU>

Subject:      Burroughs Sighting

 

Andrei Condrescu's new book - "The Blood Countess" - has an endorsement on

the back of the dust jacket by William S. Burroughs - he calls the book "a

page turner".....

 

 

Jim Harrod

jaharrod@uci.edu

url = http://bookweb.cwis.uci.edu:8042/

ph = (714) 824-7878

fx = (714) 824-8545

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:48:50 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Holden, Lindel" <lholden%smtplink@RELAY.NSWC.NAVY.MIL>

Subject:      Fire Watcher

 

  So are there any openings for fire watchers up there in the

  Cascades? by the Skagit with a view of Hozomeen?

 

  samsara sam

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:31:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac

 

This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

sincere yet fictionalized  perception of his brother.  I, too, had an older

brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

most difficult events in my life.  I never had a chance to know my brother,

and so he became a "saintly" image in my past.  Kerouac's honest approach to

immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

 

I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

and the places he will go.  I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

writes about.  Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is looking

for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

 

Go in peace.

Kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:58:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

As another new member of the list, I'm glad to see it works! Personally I

feel Kerouac takes his place as one of the great writers because of what

Kirsten says here. He meant a lot to me when I was growing up for completely

different yet equally intense and personal reasons. As a young Brit growing

up in gloomy ealy 70's London, he made me get on a Greyhound and explore

America for three months as soon as I could at age 17, and as I explored his

works he spoke to me again and again. That was before I went into

publishing, discovered a lot more about what his style meant and how

important all of that was to the future of writing. For that matter he also

got me into jazz, and is probably a good proportion of the reason I'm now

living here in the States twenty years later. I think that both his honesty

and his writing style do get into people's souls in a way few if any others

do, and that's what stands out. And of course looking back some of it seems

naive now, but there's always plenty more in the writing to explore. So

maybe others feel the same way?

 

Nick W-W

 

 

>This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

>into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

>because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

>sincere yet fictionalized  perception of his brother.  I, too, had an older

>brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

>losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

>most difficult events in my life.  I never had a chance to know my brother,

>and so he became a "saintly" image in my past.  Kerouac's honest approach to

>immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

> 

>I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

>Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

>can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

>and the places he will go.  I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

>my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

>writes about.  Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is looking

>for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

>understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

>seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

> 

>Go in peace.

>Kristen

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:05:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

Right on, Kristen.  It's why we read, and it's who we are.  Al

 

On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

 

> This may seem impertinent coming from a young person who has been thrown

> into the Category: Generation X, but my husband told me about BEAT-L

> because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

> sincere yet fictionalized  perception of his brother.  I, too, had an older

> brother who died when I was 8 years old...and I have found that

> losing someone that I loved so dearly at such a young age was one of the

> most difficult events in my life.  I never had a chance to know my brother,

> and so he became a "saintly" image in my past.  Kerouac's honest approach to

> immortalize his brother brought tears to my eyes.

> 

> I've started to read "On the Road" and I am up to his arrival in

> Denver. It reminds me somewhat of Pirsig's travels in "Zen and the Art..." I

> can't wait to hear what Kerouac's perceptions are of the people he will meet

> and the places he will go.  I am only 25, and a far cry from a Beatnik, but in

> my heart I feel connected somewhat to the ideas and experiences that Kerouac

> writes about.  Forgive me if this note is not what this Mailing list is

 looking

> for; sometimes I just need to know that maybe there is someone who can

> understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

> seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

> 

> Go in peace.

> Kristen

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:18:14 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

Comments: To: pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU

In-Reply-To:  <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu> (message from Kristen

              VanRiper on Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:31:03 -0500)

 

Very interesting post.  Funny that you read `Visions of Gerard' before OTR; I

don't think I've gotten around to reading Gerard, though I think I've looked

at it.  It's not the first title that comes to mind when you mention Kerouac.

 

I wondered reading your post about how you would react to OTR; perhaps I was

thinking more of Neal Cassady's `First Third'.  I had a friend once who

couldn't stand OTR, while I couldn't stand her favorite book, `Been down so

long...' by Richard Farina.  I dumped her, of course.  As for Pirsig's book, I

absolutely can't stand that either.  I wondered if liking one of these books

automatically means you won't like certain others.

 

Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

(before Joyce, say).  I just fail to see what's so good about it.  It is

_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

 

About `First Third', I gave a copy to an old friend of mine who read one of

the more sexist passages aloud and threw it on the floor in disgust.  I picked

it up and kept it, so it was a great present from my point of view.  As for

the (ex-) friend, he went from being a misogynist with great promise to a

pussy-whipped puppet who can't think for himself.  It's really a shame.  Hate

to see a good man go bad like that.  But remember, folks, it just goes to show

that Cassady is a great barometer for these things.  And if that fails to

please, try Bukowski.

 

(Sorry, Vonnegut's just a little too cute and clever for me.  As Jack would

say, his stuff is `just fiction').

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:35:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Martin Taylor <mtaylor@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <9506281631.AA02001@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

 

> understand why I feel close to a certain writer, and since I haven't yet

> seen a Vonnegut mailing list, I thought I would give this a try. :)

 

Hello Kristen, try the newsgroup:

 

alt.books.kurt-vonnegut

 

martin

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 13:57:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

To Kristen:

 

To me your comments are just what this mailing list is about.  Thanks for

the best reason I've heard lately on why to read Kerouac.

Frank Beacham

163 Amsterdam Ave. #361

New York, NY 10023

(212) 873-9349

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:00:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Willard Goodwin <wgoodwin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject:      Classic English lit

 

Joseph Rodrigue wrote:

 

>Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

>simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

>(before Joyce, say).  I just fail to see what's so good about it.  It is

>_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

 

And yet the Beats themselves had very great reverence for the English

Romantics (see my favorite Ginsberg poem, "Wales Visitation," an explicit

allusion to Wordsworth), Blake especially, and much of the ancient sacred

literature; and in American literature for Melville at least, of the

"classics." Of course Joseph, de gustibus non disputandum est.

 

P.S. At this Center we have deep archival research collections in Beats

(even if Stanford recently acquired the great Ginsberg archive).

 

Willard Goodwin, Bibliographer

Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center

University of Texas at Austin

P.O. Box 7219

Austin, TX 78713-7219

(512) 471-9113; FAX (512) 471-9646

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:18:12 CST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         GUITAR GOD <SGUNTER@BVILLE.NWSC.K12.AR.US>

Organization: Bentonville High School

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

     I, too, am new to the list but found your post enlightening. How

good it is to find this list, to find other seekers.  Yes, go in

peace, and may you stay forever young....thanks.... (PS im sure i

will find out how but is it possible to digest Beat-l?)

 

 

 

 

 

############

Steve Gunter

BHS/NWACC

Bentonville,AR 72712

####################

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:38:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

>because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

>sincere yet fictionalized  perception of his brother.

 

Coolness, Kristen....Yours is the first post I've received since starting

this list and you love my favorite Kerouac book.

The  connection I've made to Kerouac's writings has always been through the

heart. To this day I remember the way I felt the first time I read Visions of

G about 20 years ago - as if I had stumbled upon a well of unashamed

sweetness and tenderness. You could send me running back to the book right

now, except that I'm just starting on William Vollmann's  long "Fathers and

Crows".  There is something about Vollmann that reminds me of Kerouac.

Perhaps they are both just the kind of sensitive bad boys that some women

love (on paper at least).

 

Glad to hear from all of you!

 

Julie Hulvey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:30:52 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Andy Petrie... 01473 224001" <petrie_a@SVHDEV.BT.CO.UK>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

Hello from sunny England...

 

First of all, greetings to all on this list. :)  I signed up a few days ago, and

things were quiet at first, before Kirsten's post.  Now more and more of us seem

to be crawling out from under our respective stones... Did I just happen to sign

on at a quiet period?

 

Well, like I say, I'm new to the list, and relatively new to the Beat.  My first

great love was poetry of all kinds, which of course led to "Leaves of Grass",

"Howl" etc.  I'm now immersed in "On the Road", which I figured was as good a

place to start as any.  Do correct me if I'm wrong - suggestions always welcome!

 

Love and Peace,

 

Andy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 07:00:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

Wow!

I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

 

Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

 

Gene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 07:41:36 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      Re[2]: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  In reply to your message of WED 28 JUN 1995 23:00:27 EDT

 

>Wow!

>I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

>the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

>about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

> 

>Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

>If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

> 

>Gene

OTR is one of FF Cop.'s projects, even as we speak, but I don't think

it's been announced who is appearing in the leading roles. I wouldn't

mind getting into a discussion about how _we_ would try and treat the

production, were it ours to treat.

This will probably be the one film that folks will have to hang Jack's

raincoat on... and I think my treatment would include more than the OTR

narrative. It would be interesting to have the action presented (through

flashback or whatever) by a 1967 Jack. The film would then include not

only the story of OTR, but also the fall-out of OTR.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:54:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.950628143322.97629A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>

              from "Martin Taylor" at Jun 28, 95 02:35:46 pm

 

> Hello Kristen, try the newsgroup:

> 

> alt.books.kurt-vonnegut

> 

> martin

 

 

thank you! :)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:07:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

> 

> Joseph Rodrigue wrote:

> 

> >Somehow I find I can relate very well to the Beats and their writing, while I

> >simply cannot relate to so-called classical English and American literature

> >(before Joyce, say).  I just fail to see what's so good about it.  It is

> >_much_ too verbose and almost unrelievedly dull.

> 

> And yet the Beats themselves had very great reverence for the English

> Romantics (see my favorite Ginsberg poem, "Wales Visitation," an explicit

> allusion to Wordsworth), Blake especially, and much of the ancient sacred

> literature; and in American literature for Melville at least, of the

> "classics." Of course Joseph, de gustibus non disputandum est.

 

I was thinking about this comment yesterday, and I realize why it is that

I am not always impressed with "classical" literature... I think it's

because I'm impetuous, for the most part, and Kerouac does offer that

spontaneous, from-the-gut, sort of writing that appeals to my impetuous

nature.  I don't want to say that my youth is the only reason for being

this way...I've met many impatient people of all ages :).. and even

though I find it to be my biggest fault, it is part of what makes me the

person that I am. I guess it's all about what you are willing to accept in

your mind and your soul. :)  There will come a time when I will be more

accepting. In some ways, I am. Joe talked about how others would

recommend books to him that he found deplorable.  I know of so many

writers that I can relate to that have nothing in common, really,

other than my personal connection.    I always try to keep an

open mind. :)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:24:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <950629013806_80620634@aol.com> from "Julie Hulvey" at Jun 29,

              95 01:38:08 am

 

> 

> >because I recently read "Visions of Gerard" and was moved by Kerouac's

> >sincere yet fictionalized  perception of his brother.

> 

> Coolness, Kristen....Yours is the first post I've received since starting

> this list and you love my favorite Kerouac book.

> The  connection I've made to Kerouac's writings has always been through the

> heart. To this day I remember the way I felt the first time I read Visions of

> G about 20 years ago - as if I had stumbled upon a well of unashamed

> sweetness and tenderness. You could send me running back to the book right

> now, except that I'm just starting on William Vollmann's  long "Fathers and

> Crows".  There is something about Vollmann that reminds me of Kerouac.

> Perhaps they are both just the kind of sensitive bad boys that some women

> love (on paper at least).

 

I was wondering how other women feel about Kerouac. :)  This morning, I

got to thinking about the women I've read about so far in OTR.  Granted,

it is only a perception, and I'm only in San Francisco right now, but it

reminds me of my mother and the sadness I feel when I think of all that

she expected out of life and how disappointed and disallusioned she

became.  I think there is a "sensitive bad boy" in me.  Pete Townsend

said, "I am a man and a woman," and I believe that he meant sexuality to

be a perception and not a gonad. :)  Jack's perception of women may

sadden me, but it was his reality.  It's a reality that exists today.

 

I also got to thinking about "Visions of Gerard" and Jack's mother; how she

lived with the abuse of an alcoholic husband who could not face

death. My mother, to this day, will not accept and chooses to live in a

"drunken stupor" of her own.  Jack shows that gender is not a factor when

one chooses to deny life.

 

Nice to hear from you. :) Peace.

Kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:30:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         cyberJack <jackb@MSI.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

>     I, too, am new to the list but found your post enlightening. How

>good it is to find this list, to find other seekers.

 

 

I am always encouraged that one can find seekers everywhere.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:43:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <9506291307.AA25229@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

 

> because I'm impetuous, for the most part, and Kerouac does offer that

> spontaneous, from-the-gut, sort of writing that appeals to my impetuous

> nature.

 Kerouac thought of writing as a performance, like a jazz musician who

has only one chance to perform a night, Kerouac wrote (performed)

straight through. You can't change or revise a improv jazz solo, and

Kerouac believed the same about writing.

 

JoAnne

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:49:42 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      First Reading of On The Road

In-Reply-To:  In reply to your message of THU 29 JUN 1995 00:24:04 EDT

 

Date: Summer, 1973

Place: Guest room at Helen Forbes' house, a few miles out of Nairobi

Circumstances: Our family grew up in Kenya (my dad was in the United

Nations). Hell of a party melted into my having to spend the night at

the Forbes' place, rather than motorcycling home (20 miles). I woke up,

and the place was empty. The headboard of the guest bed doubled as a

book case, and I tipped my head back to scan the titles. _On The Road_

was the first and only book I pulled from the collection.

I recognized the author's name from readings about Dylan (Anthony

Scaduto's book, mostly), and from the liner notes off of "Blood On The

Tracks" (I think).

Once I started reading, I knew I was in trouble. My travelling feet had

long been itching... and I only stayed in one place long enough to

finish the book (one sitting).

I turned the last page, ran outside, hopped on my Norton 750, and tore

off for Mombasa (300-some miles away) (where I was certain that Kim was

waiting for me).

As it turned out, the book has remained faithful. Kim had found a new

guy, the bike led me into a bad wreck, and Scaduto's biography has been

poo-pooed. Yeah, OTR remains faithful to that first (and all subsequent)

readings... and I suppose Dylan has as well.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:54:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: First Reading of On The Road

In-Reply-To:  <29JUN95.10614910.0010.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> from "Stedman,

              Jim" at Jun 29, 95 09:49:42 am

 

> readings... and I suppose Dylan has as well.

> Jim Stedman

 

How true.

 

Kristen VanRiper

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:03:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Stan Bernstein <sbernst@PANIX.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac audio tape

In-Reply-To:  <29JUN95.08308993.0076.MUSIC@NMU.EDU>

 

At a Street Fair on Carmine Street in Greenwich Village, New York City

about five years ago, a vender had set up his table with "Spoken

Arts"-type tape casettes. I purchased one called "Jack Kerouac & Neal

Cassady--a private recording 1953--1954." The notice within the casette

case reads: "Jack & Neal together 1953-54 @ Cassady's house, San Jose,

CA. Neal reads Proust; Jack tries to correct his pronunciation of

'Gilberte'; Jack sings and reads from Dr. Sax. Neal approves, Neal

discusses Burroughs, Comment by Carolyn; 1967,8(?) reading from Vanity of

Dulouz and talking." Publisher of the casette is listed as Cassette

Gazette, 83 rue de la Tombe Issoire 75014 Paris, France.

 

Listened to this casette during a long bus trip and really enjoyed it.

Wonder if other such tapes are floating around and if so where do you get

them?

 

Thanks to whoever started this list--a truly great idea.

 

All best wishes/SB

sbernst@panix.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:21:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac audio tape

 

>sbernst@panix.com said:::

>Listened to this casette during a long bus trip and really enjoyed it.

>Wonder if other such tapes are floating around and if so where do you get

>them?

> 

Ryko Disc came out with a box set of beat spoken performances a few years

ago that seems to have some similar material.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:58:32 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject:      The tongue of angels

 

        Salutations and halos,

 

    Great to hear such rapturous appreciation of writing. Anyone else out

        there into Gregory Corso as well ? And Vonnegut ? And Thomas Wolfe...

        I know I'm probably pushing the definition of 'beat' here, but what the

        forceps, if it's cool it's cool. I like that idea of writing being a one

        off performance - reminds me of the debate in 'Naked Lunch'.

 

        A confession to end : I've never read any Kerouac. Is his prose as

        alive as Ginsbergs songs ? Which one should I start with ?

 

        Peace and Pirhanas,

        JJ

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:05:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:38:08 -0400 from <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

 

I just discovered Vollman, myself!  In the past week I've read Whores for

Gloria and The Rainbow Stories.  Both are *fantastic* and definitely Kerouac-

esque, in subject matter (S.F. counterculture and Tenderloin street scene) and

flowing, seemingly spontaneous prose style.  In White Knights, an autobiograph-

ical account of Vollman's experiences hanging out with S.F. skinheads, one of

the skinheads remarks on Vollman's story (while loading a bong-hit): "Dee says

you need work on your grammar, you use too many run-on sentences.  She should

know, she went to college."  What a perfect comment on education, on how often

we kill what is good and natural and real in language, the forces Kerouac and

the other beats wrote against!  I think Vollman owes much to Kerouac (and

Burroughs, to whom he is often compared as an explorer of the dark seamy

 

underbelly of the city.)  What do the rest of you think about Vollman? Is he a

direct descendent of the beats?  How does his vision of the Tenderloin compare

with Kerouac's?  I'm not sure if a this list is even the place to talk about a

gen. x'er like Vollman, but this is the first contact I've had with others who

have even heard of him, so I thought I'd speak up...

                                                      --Win Mattingly

 

Also, what about Bukowski?  Again, not strictly a beat but definitely some con-

nection.  Does anybody know about any Bukowski lists?  I'd also like to join in

some dialogue about H. Selby, esp. Requiem for a Dream and whatever he's doing

these days (I heard he teaches at USC, what about recent writing and confer-

ences?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:33:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject:      First Reading Of "On The Road"

 

The first time I read "On The Road" was in 1974. It was the

Summertime and I was scheduled to start at University in

the Fall. So, I decided to do some travelling. My brother

had given me the book and I read it as I hitchhiked from

Toronto to Vancouver and then north to Alaska. I was 17 at

the time and had an opportunity to expand my horizons in

many different ways. Reading "On The Road" and being on the

road at the same time is an experience that I will always

remember.

 

Hope those of you who haven't read it yet will enjoy it as

much as I did that Summer.

 

Ron

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:08:09 +5000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <joehler@[198.51.81.100]>

From:         James Oehler <joehler@SUCCESS.NET>

Subject:      Burroughs&Bukowski

 

 Hello all,

  I just joined to the group too. And I just heard someone mention

Bukowski, his books are great. I have read practically all of them, I

especially like what he has to say about people, that all of us

insane only a few a are sane. Which is quite true, but I am still on

the insane side for now. There is some other things I like about him

that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

way has anybody read his sons (I know he died)  books i know he has one out

 called

"Speed in combination w/ something else. Any new books by Bukowski

out yet? Anybody see "Barfly" that was a great movie. Also did

anybody pick up the record w/ William Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, that

is a great record.  Never heard of Vollman can someone email a reply

and tell me who he is. As far as Kerouac books go I havent got into

him yet, all though my dad has all his Kerouac books layin around the

house, maybe I ll pick one up. But right now I am reading "Birth of

tradgedy" by Friedrich Nietzsche, pretty interesting so far. Alrighty

hope this sparks up some talking, cuz I am interested in those ?'s I

asked.

 

   Later

--

__________________________________

joehler@success.net

__________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:12:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         William Baker <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <47D61018EF@bville.nwsc.k12.ar.us>

 

please take me off this list as fascinating as it is takes too much

time.Good luck to you all and best wishes to Bill G. Bill Baker.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:57:54 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject:      Re: Kerouac audio tape

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.950629095046.19148A-100000@panix3.panix.com>

 

Stan Bernstein <sbernst@PANIX.COM  writes:

 

------------------------------- Original Message --------------------------

At a Street Fair on Carmine Street in Greenwich Village, New York City

about five years ago, a vender had set up his table with "Spoken

Arts"-type tape casettes. I purchased one called "Jack Kerouac & Neal

Cassady--a private recording 1953--1954." The notice within the casette

case reads: "Jack & Neal together 1953-54 @ Cassady's house, San Jose,

CA. Neal reads Proust; Jack tries to correct his pronunciation of

'Gilberte'; Jack sings and reads from Dr. Sax. Neal approves, Neal

discusses Burroughs, Comment by Carolyn; 1967,8(?) reading from Vanity of

Dulouz and talking." Publisher of the casette is listed as Cassette

Gazette, 83 rue de la Tombe Issoire 75014 Paris, France.

-------------------------End Original Message ----------------------------

 

This note brings back memories.  I lived for the last four months

of 1972 with Carolyn Cassady, and I heard that recording on the old

boxy rell-to-reel on which it was recorded.  I particularly recall

Jack leaning into the mike while Neal was intoning in the background

now with his `Jeeeeeel-bahrt!' corrections during a recitation from

Proust.

 

 

Sure like to know if it were available generally...

 

        .+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

        |     <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of      |

        |     NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers.      |

        `+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:18:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kirk Moe Brown <kirkmoe@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To:  <9506291458.AA21174@comdev>

 

I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

come alive.  The silence that first greeted my subscription was

disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation.  I guess we were all just

a little shy...

 

I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

energy in the Beats.  Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

machine organization.

 

For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

influenced by, the classics of the past.  The beats traded the grim

reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

 

Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR.  I find it disturbing,

too.  I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

saving grace for the work.  We see that the Beats weren't infallible

sages, but seekers just like us.  Perhaps we can model ourselves after

their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

vision of life and ourselves.

 

I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list.  I really just wanted to

say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

 

Kirk

 

______________________________________________

 

"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:23:04 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject:      Dressed up like a carcrash

 

        To all the Bukowski devotees - yeah! I read 'Post Office' and it really is

a fresh breeze. 'In the morning it was still morning and I was not dead..'

 

        Adieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The tongue of angels

 

There's a lot to this. You can't expect Kerouac, who was just a regular

young guy of the 1940's with a prodigious talent, to have absorbed all the

politically correct mores we (try) to live by now. And he was the chronicler

of it all, more than he was that much of an active participant. We

understand the whole movement because of his skill in bringing it to us so

vibrantly. I think it's possible to love Kerouac's writing without getting

particularly excited by the lifestyle it portrays, or especially liking the

rest of the work that others put out. HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece

of work, original and revolutionary, but (and I realize I may be destroying

the good-natured tone of the group over the last few days) the rest of it is

pretty second-rate, the spontaneityof it really a copy of what Kerouac had

come up with as a new approach to writing.

 

Also remember that Kerouac, ageing and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators. I think

quite a lot of us might not have liked him too much. He's still my literary

hero though

 

Nick W-W

 

 

 

>I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

>come alive.  The silence that first greeted my subscription was

>disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

>buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation.  I guess we were all just

>a little shy...

> 

>I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

>energy in the Beats.  Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

>Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

>dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

>machine organization.

> 

>For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

>version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

>influenced by, the classics of the past.  The beats traded the grim

>reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

>lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

> 

>Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

>Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR.  I find it disturbing,

>too.  I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

>saving grace for the work.  We see that the Beats weren't infallible

>sages, but seekers just like us.  Perhaps we can model ourselves after

>their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

>vision of life and ourselves.

> 

>I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list.  I really just wanted to

>say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

> 

>Kirk

> 

>______________________________________________

> 

>"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

>Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

>(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:37:28 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To:  <199506291712.AA239905939@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

              Weir-Williams on Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500)

 

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

 

> HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece of work, original and revolutionary,

> but (and I realize I may be destroying the good-natured tone of the group

> over the last few days) the rest of it is pretty second-rate,

 

What specifically was second-rate?

 

> the spontaneity of it really a copy of what Kerouac had come up with as a

> new approach to writing.

 

He didn't come up with it.  Cassady did.

 

> Also remember that Kerouac, aging and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

> mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators.

 

Huh?  You think nobody was blasting off against demonstrators in the 60's?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:36:33 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

In-Reply-To:  <199506291614.MAA22819@a.success.net>; from "James Oehler" at Jun

              29, 95 12:08 (noon)

 

> that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

> so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

> way has anybody read his sons (I know he died)  books i know he has one out

>  called

> "Speed in combination w/ something else.

 

How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

 

Tracey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:37:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Scott <kerouac@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>

Subject:      Burroughs

 

Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

 

Scott Gillaspie

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.950629123651.1561C-100000@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>;

              from "Scott" at Jun 29, 95 12:37 (noon)

 

Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

> 

> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

> 

> Scott Gillaspie

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:18:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

 

>How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

> 

>Tracey

> 

 

According to Ted Morgan's brilliant biography of his dad, Literary Outlaw,

Billy died at 6:35am March 3 1981 of complications due to a liver

transplant.  the Actual wording was, "acute gastrointestinal hemorage

associated with micronodular cirrhosis"

 

Andrew Schwartz

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:03:43 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT from

              <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

 

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT Tracey L. Milton said:

>Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

>sorry for the misunderstanding.

>> 

>> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

>> 

>> Scott Gillaspie

>> 

William Burroughs Jr. died of Cirrhosis (?) after a liver transplant in the

late 70's-early 80's, if I am remembering correctly.  I recommend the excellent

Burroughs Sr. Biography titled Literary Outlaw written by Ted Morgan.  Great

reading, excellent photographs.  I know Billy B.'s first two books, Speed and

Kentucky Ham are in print (and in fact actually available in a single volume),

but does anyone know if the third one (titled, at least according to the Ken-

tucky Ham liner notes, Prikitti Junction, though I'm not sure about the spell

ing) is available?  Burroughs Jr. possessed a magnificent talent (my opinion),

it's a shame his excesses blew it out so early.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:56:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

 

liver failure...he got  liver transplant in 1976 and continued drinking.  i thin

k he died in 1981 at the age of 34 or 35.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:01:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Richard Beban <RBEBAN@DELPHI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

> JoAnn Ruvoli wrote:

 

>  Kerouac thought of writing as a performance, like a jazz musician who

> has only one chance to perform a night, Kerouac wrote (performed)

> straight through. You can't change or revise a improv jazz solo, and

> Kerouac believed the same about writing.

 

 

Au contraire.  It's a wonderful, romantic myth that Kerouac's writing sprang

full-blown, first-draft, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, but the man,

like all great writers, was a craftsperson who revised his work.  Writing is

rewriting.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:17:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Bukowski & the Beats

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95062911520612@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Win Mattingly" at

              Jun 29, 95 11:05:19 am

 

On June 29 Win Mattingly wrote:

> Also, what about Bukowski?  Again, not strictly a beat but definitely some

 con-

> nection.  Does anybody know about any Bukowski lists?

 

        I am curious how others square Bukowski with the

Beats (or vice versa).  I'm thinking primarily of Ginsberg.

Obviously Bukowski & Ginsberg share markedly different

backgrounds--geographically, economically, and politically.

And the two right away took vastly different approaches toward

how to position themselves in academic literary circles.  In

terms of the poetry itself--and in terms of their shared

audiences--the two are similar enough that I wonder why they

rarely overlap (at least) when folks talk about contemporary

poetry.

        Bukowski seemed to work so hard to carve himself a

solitary "outsider" position in literary circles that he left himself

no choice but to distrust Beats for their popularity and assimilation

(as treacherous as we all know assimilation can be).

Unfortunately, I can't go to my books and look for Bukowski

references to Beat writing, because I'm moving Saturday, and

all books are packed away.  I do remember, though, that Neeli

Cherkovsky's biography of Bukowski portrays him, at best, as

indifferent to the Beats (again I'm thinking primarly of

Ginsberg).  Even this indifference seemed a constructed pose,

though, from what I could gather in the rest of the (excellent)

biography, and from Bukowski's poetry and fiction as a whole.

        I'm curious about what others think.  The form and

content of Bukowski's work shares Beat sensibilities to a certain

significant extent, yet I've never seen the two camps meet

beyond indifference.

 

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Trigilio           *       "How do you know but ev'ry Bird that

                        *       cuts the airy way, / Is an immense world

                        *       of delight, closed by your senses five?"

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu   *                               (William Blake)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:51:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

 

I think I would like to discover Vollman.  Is he the same William

Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding the

Oklahoma bombing?

 

Jeff Questad

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:03:24 GMT

Reply-To:     JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Joyce Johnson

 

I came to Kerouac when I was sixteen, which I guess is fairly normal.

That was 36 years ago.  My eldest son is 24, and starting to straighten his

life out after a few foolish episodes.  Four or five years ago he started to

take off for weeks at a time --just bumming around.  Eventually, the light came

on.  I said,  Have you been reading Kerouac?   He had, of course -- thought On

the Road was wonderful and wanted to act it out.  Brought a lot of things back

to me. What I really wanted to say, though, was: how many people out there

share my view that Joyce Johnson could write the ass off the rest of them?

That, of that whole crew of writers and poets (for whom I still feel an immense

kinship and affection), she was the best of the lot?  But that, because she was

a woman, that could not be recognised? the best of the lot?  But that, because

she was a woman, that could not be recognised?

 

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:20:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      My first time

 

I think this list is going to be alot of fun. There are apparently alot

of young readers maybe young writers here encountering Kerouac for the

first time and perhaps finding the first literature that speaks to

them.  Seems to be the most common theme, the sweetness, honesty and

appeal of Kerouac's novels for readers who have never been able to

relate to more "academic" writing. Probably almost all of us who love

Kerouac feel something more akin to love and fellowship than the kind

of respect you'll later feel for Joyce, Shakespeare or Hemingway, say.

And I'd bet also most of us read him young and may or may not have

continued to read his books later.  This is not to say he's a kid's

writer.  There is much that is serious and important in Kerouac.

 

I think On The Road may have been the first "real" novel I found on my

own, read on my own, loved on my own, and would stand up for.  I was

probably 15, and I think I'd read nothing but Sherlock Holmes stories

to that point. The rest of that summer in Bandera, Texas I sought out

other Jack books and read Dharma Bums, Dr Sax, Desolation Angels, and

Maggie Cassidy at least.  Maybe others.

 

Over the years my literary opinion of Kerouac has wavered, but reading

some of these posts reminds me of the first time books spoke to me.

 

Jeff Questad

Austin 6/29/95

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:27:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac Thesis

 

From:   SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:50:52.67

To:     BONELLI

CC:

Subj:   Undeliverable Mail

 

Date:     Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:50 -0700 (PDT)

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  Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:49 -0700 (PDT)

  From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

  To:   beat-l@cunyvm.edu

  Message-Id: <950628125049.2060084b@sonoma.edu>

  Subject: Kerouac Thesis For Real

 

  From: SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:47:28.60

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    Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT)

    From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

    To:   BEAT-L@CUNYVM.edu

    Message-Id: <950628124725.20601802@sonoma.edu>

    Subject: Kerouac Thesis

 

    I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

    of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

    researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite often) and

    became hooked. I, too, am hooked into a spiritual connection with the author

    which is hard for me to comprehend: he is often sexist and mostly a complete

    ass to women, both in life and his writing. Yet, I am haunted and intrigued

    by the relationship he had with Neal Cassady, allen, J. Clellon Holmes,

    Burroughs and others. Also, the way he turned against his peers/fellow

    "Beats" towards the end of his alcohol-induced delusionial life. I have

    found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

    this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

    who has also done grad. work on Kerouac, or who sees or is exploring the

    connections between Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" and Kerouac's "On the Road."

    Dig it,

    Lisa B    email me at: bonelli@sonoma.edu

 

  End of returned message

 

 

End of returned message

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:07:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

 

BEAT-L)

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

Then this was written:

>I think I would like to discover Vollman.  Is he the same William

>Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding >the

Oklahoma bombing?

 

Yep. He's a contributing editor to Spin. He also wrote a piece on

voodoo (I think) for the Spin Anniversary issue in April.  I missed that one

--boo hoo.

 

Jules

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Ginsberg quotation

 

>From the interview with Allen Ginsberg in Magic Blend, July 1995:

 

Ginsberg: "There was this explosion into a spoken poetry, which Kerouac

excelled at, and that ignited interest in Bob Dylan, who said that Kerouac's

_Mexico City Blues_ was the first American poetry book that really spoke to

him.  I asked him why and he said, 'It's the only book of poetry I ever read

that spoke in my own language-- American rhythms and diction.'  This was a

conversation we had at Kerouac's grave in Lowell, Massachusetts. So between

myself and Kerouac and a few others who influenced Dylan, this caused the

whole explosion of popular song."

 

Damion

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Ginsberg and NAMBLA

 

At the begining of the recent Magical Blend interview by Tom McIntyre of

Allen Ginsberg it says "The recent sale of his collected memorabilia to

Stanford University became an explosive topic when the executive board of

that august bastion of conservatism discovered his relationship with NAMBLA

(North American Man Boy Love Association)."  I knew of Ginsberg's support of

NAMBLA but hadn't heard that this was an "explosive" topic.  What happened?

 They bought the stuff anyway, right?  So were there protests or something,

what form did the explosion take?

 

Damion

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 06:38:08 -0400

Reply-To:     au405@freenet.Buffalo.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Harold Boss <au405@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac

 

In the 7/28-29 list someone downplayed Kerouac's jazz-inspired

writing by asserting that he was a craftsperson who revised his

work.  This sent me running upstairs to look over an issue of

the "Paris Review" which had an articleabout the time Kerouac

submitted OTR for publication.  Naturally, I can't find it right

now.  I see that issue 40 (Winter-Spring 1966) is missing.

Perhaps it was that one.  Who knows, itt's probably in the

attic.  I'll search it out sometime.

 

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

 

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance).  No

puncuation, no nothing.  Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

 

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity).  Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

 

Craftsperson he was.  But he also knew how to blow a riff.

 

The above is from memory.  And of something I read 30

years ago.  It could be entirely screwed-up, but I do

remember being terribly impressed.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:33:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Madeleine Charney <m_charney@FOMA.WSC.MASS.EDU>

Subject:      Re: My first time

 

It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

 

I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

(year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

Open to anything new.

 

Although I wasn't in the place (didn't have the courage?) ti take

off and live a life like Kerouac's, I did relate to what I read

by simply sleeping outdoors every chance I got. Beside the lake,

in the dark, I often thought "There's got to be more out there."

 

And now as an adult I have the opportunity to explore that

moreness.

 

Thanks to all on the list for stimulating that memory in me.

-Madeleine

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:54:40 BST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject:      Re: My first time - really that transcendent ?

In-Reply-To:  <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>; from "Madeleine Charney" at

              Jun 30, 95 9:33 am

 

        I'm just about to go camping around France for 2 weeks.(Work dictates etc.)

And, as a long-time fan of Ginsberg, Corso, and many other 'Beat-affiliated'

writers(Vonnegut, Whitman, Thoreaux, Blake, and so forth) I've been sweetly

impressed by the strength of devotion to Kerouac's 'On the Road' on this

list. So, my question is : should I get this and read it as I'm travelling/

relaxing? Or should I stick to my original plan of blasting 'The Brothers

Karamazov' at last?

        Peace and bubbles,

        JJ

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:00:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      The Ju-Jitsu Monkey (a story)

 

                         Ju-Jitsu Monkey

 

 

               ...the evening star must be drooping and shedding

 

               her sparkler dims on the prarie, which is just

               before the coming of complete night that blesses the

 

               earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

 

               the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's

 

               going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags

 

               of growing old...

                                                  Jack Kerouac

 

 

     I fell asleep against the gas station wall, a sign reading

"West" on my lap. Time that seemed snap-your-fingers quick zoomed

 

by, and I was being shaken awake. I woke out of whatever world I'd

 

drifted into, and felt I was re-enetering that world where folks

 

aren't supposed to sleep against gas station walls. As I hit

atmosphere, I was already collecting together my bags, my guitar,

 

and my sign, figuring without being told that it was once again

"move along" time. I started getting to my feet, and then focussed

 

on who it was that had given me the shake.

     "Hey, Pal, these guys are wondering if you want a ride?"

     The man who'd woke me was sort of leaning over me, and his

voice and eyes were matched with a child's laughing quality. This

 

was no child, though.

     His hair was grey and thin, and he had a stomach that only

decades of alcohol can produce. He had on an old flannel plaid

shirt, and worn-out khaki pants, unlaced hiking boots, and no

socks. Standing over me, he was as big as a cloud, but, like a

Russki circus bear, no threat. This mountain was not about to

charge into the gallery and maul the wide-eyed children, but was

 

getting ready for the act where he wears the enormous ruffly collar

 

and rides around the ring on a unicycle.

     In his childeyes, there was a softness that told the world

that all's fine. He was standing over me, with his elbows resting

 

on his knees, laughing.

     "These guys are riding all the way to Calgary! They're

wondering if you want a ride!"

     There was a red Ford pick-up pulled up at the curb, with two

 

young kids in the cab, waving to me.

     "If you're riding, come on!" they yelled.

     "I've been riding with these guys since Montreal," continued

 

my escort, "and you aren't gonna find a sweeter passage."

     I tossed my gear into the truck. We jumped into the back, and

 

I heard my travelling partner laugh as he saw my expression.

     "These guys are hauling forty sleeping bags to Calgary. All

 

they want us to do is keep 'em weighted down!"

     He pointed to a cooler, and I pulled out a couple of beers.

 

I tossed one to his side of the box, which he caught with a little

 

celebration's flourish. The truck pulled back out onto TransCanada

 

1, and, yee-hah!, we were on our way west.

     "Without a doubt, Pal-- this is the sweetest passage ever

existed!" screamed the bear. Everything he said he screamed, and

 

everything he screamed was joyous and innocent. Words flew out with

 

exclamation marks tied on like kite tails.

     I silently sang a hymn to our barelling along, following the

 

sun. I'd been spending too many months and years strapped to the

 

east, and now saw north and south travel as wasted time. Greed-in-

 

motion had taken over the entire seaboard, and varied only in

temperature along the coast. Take your Hamptons and your

Lauderdales, Bloomingdales, Kitty Hawks, and gawk at the gimme-

gimme-gimme as they line each town's Fifth Av, rubbing big

overcoated shoulders at the newstand and saying "Bill-- I didn't

 

see you at church last Sunday" and other such nosebody nonsense.

 

Anyway, I'd finally managed to cut the ropes with one more trip

north, for to have missed Toronto and its Elizabeth Campbell in the

 

summer would have been the wrong mistake. With that city put to

rest, and Liz put on hold ("Of course I'll be writing!" I tell her

 

as I walk down the lonely morning driveway-- having for some reason

 

refused a ride to the interstate), I was ready to pull away from

 

the east. Fare thee well to the Hudson and the Chesapeeque, fare

 

thee well, Tarrytown and Northport and St. Albans and the countless

 

other burgs where I'd been stuck alongside the shoulder, under the

 

overspasses waiting for the rain to piss and pass, behind huge

signs with their inscriptions (Been here too damn long, Bob From

 

Annapolis, June, 1968) and other such nonsense written down to

relieve the frustration of the time weary hitch hiker and also

enough to make the next bum along the way read the words and wail

 

in desperation's misery, for the only way to hitch hike is to plan

 

it slow-mo, and the only way to hitch hike is to party solo.

     And now we were loose from it all, breaking out to where there

 

was enough air and space to look around and breathe it all in.

Heading west, and there's nothing like the feeling in the whole

world, nothing that's ever made me feel as free and wheee! as lying

 

back in that red truck's bed on my own bed of delivery duckdown

sleeping bags, taking a good, cool slug of the bear's beer and

watching the sun pass over my head and forward, calling me out to

 

the plains and Mississippi valley and lakes and rivers that I've

 

only known as lines on maps. It was hello to a new world, and new

 

people, and rodeo my rodeo.

     Finally heading west.  I wanted to scatter the ashes of

whatever the hell it was that I was finally able to shake alongside

 

TransCanada 1, where it could drift and blow in the jetstreams of

 

balling deisels, deciding west or east of its own. As for me, I'd

 

cashed-in. I looked over to the bear, who sat, looking back to

where we'd been, with a cheesburg grin. He must have read my mind,

 

holding up his beer can and shouting, "Fuck you, East Coast!" and

 

laughing loud enough to get the rest of the world that cared to

join along with him on the refrain.

     "Fuck You, East Coast!" I screamed with the bear, and we were

 

joined on the third repeat by the kids in the cab, all of us

laughing as we balled our way to the horizon, the edge of the

world, and the waiting sun.

 

     The bear, despite this salute and his joy, was a silent

traveller. He sat in the day's passing sun, reading tattered

paperbacks, scribbling pencil notes in the margins, and smiling to

 

himself. All the while I watched him, though, I thought to myself

 

why in the name of god does a man his age find himself travelling

 

alone. I also had a million other questions developing along the

 

lines of where ya going, who you gonna see, and other such... but

 

all the time not realizing that the reason he was here, rolling

west, was the same reason I was doing the same. Rolling west in

need of getting from as much as getting to, we were on identical

 

missions. The afternoon was upon us, and we were pulling into

Kirkland Lake. The two brothers in the cab were weary with their

 

travelling, having pushed straight through from Montreal without

 

a good sleep, and so we found a lake and a campspot.

     After I helped Tim and Jim set up their tent, the bear and I

 

moved to the far side of the clearing, so as not to disturb the

boys. I took my guitar out of the case, and the bear pulled a

bottle of whiskey out of his suitcase. I'd been entertaining myself

 

with the guitar for twenty years, and so had learned a lot of

different styles and types of songs. The bear seemed to enjoy all

 

of it, though, and had enough of a musical sense to beat out

rythyms in the twigs and branches-- anticipating an ending 'tag'

 

line or finishing roll with each song.

     At one point I started goofing with a sophomoric twelve-bar

 

blues pattern, and the bear stood up on his traveller's whiskey

legs, and started dancing under a canopy of low pine branches. The

 

branches hung so close to the ground, that he had to stoop and bend

 

his knees in order to continue his jungle jitterbug. I finished the

 

pattern off, and the bear whooped and performed a satorical

backwards flip out from the trees and back into our edge of the

clearing. I rattled my head, trying to make sure I'd taken the

whole scene in. The bear was in one look an ancient bum of a man,

 

a drunken fellahin, down down down on his luck. In flashes, though,

 

he became tender, vigorous, and exciting.

     He flipped his way back to the spot where we'd set up our

"camp". I stared at him.

     "What was all that about?" I asked.

     "Welll my boyyyy," he said, mimicking W.C. Fields, "That was

 

called the ancient dance of the ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy. It was taught

 

to me by an artful dowager from Escondido.... she had a glass

eye...."

     The bear took up his bottle and glugged a slug. We looked at

 

each other and howled at the setting sun.

     I built a small fire, and the bear and I sat staring at the

 

tiny flames, poking and prodding the twigs and sticks in hopes of

 

disturbing some unspoken vision. I'd told him about my years in

Africa, and he prodded the pondered flames.

     "I tried Africa," he said, no longer in his vaudeville voice.

 

     "Went to Morocco and Algiers, freighted-over to see the same

 

damned gang that I'd been following around over here. It was like

 

"Hey man! We are wailing in Tangiers!", and alackadaddy, I was on

 

my way on some Yugoslavian rust bucket. Mysterious women, daggers

 

in the teeth..."

     "Dawn donkeys pulling rolls of newsprint," I added.

     The bear looked over to me.

     "Yeah, there was that and I remember the solo voices calling

 

out great Ramadan prayers-- you could feel the dust settle as every

 

living thing stopped in silence."

     "And then," I added, "Like a big slap in world's face, the

moment is passed-- the solar eclipse shadow pulls away..."

     "And the world's turned upside down."

     "And the world's turned upside down," I echoed.

     I slammed off to sleep, and had dreams of the great unrolling

 

roads I'd done. TransCanada 1, the Nairobi-Mombasa Highway, the

Nairobi-Addis Ababa scratch in the desert earth, the New Jersey

Pennsylvania Ohio Indiana Illinois Wisconsin Minnesota patrolled

 

tollways, the lonesome Sahara stretch that busses sad loads of

dusty men and goats from El Eskandria west to Alamein, Matruh,

Rahman, and on to unknown Libya, and the corkscrew down spiral

roadway to the bottom of the volcano world of the Rift Valley

floor. Down each road and dream, the bear is walking at my side.

 

     In the dawn, I stretched and shook off the dew and any desire

 

to sleep further. The boys were up, and sat around their own fire

 

with the bear, cooking fish. I walked out from under the pine

branches to where they sat in the smoke.

     "You were having a good laugh and hoot last night," said one

 

of the kids.

     "Hey yes," I said, "I hope it didn't disturb you guys too

much."

     "Nah-- we slept like death," responded Tim.

     "What were up to?" asked Jim.

     I looked at the bear.

     "An ancient ritual," I said.

     "Ah, yesss..." said W.C. Fields, "the dance of the woebegone

 

ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy..."

     I stood up and tried to copy his funny pine needle soft-shoe,

 

but had to give it up. If I were a dancer, I might been able to

stay with Elizabeth Campbell.

     "Hey, bear," I called over to him, "why not show these guys

 

that crazy dance?"

     I looked over to where he'd been sitting, but the bear was

gone.

     The two Calgary kids were staring at me, slowly chewing their

 

fish.

     There had been no one.

      The boys said nothing, looking down at their farm boots like

 

children being given instructions. They were stuck with a me -- a

 

harmless lunatic.

     We loaded the gear back into the truck, and took off from

Kirkland Lake. We blasted through Timmons and Iroquois Falls and

 

Cochrane. We had days and days to go before getting to Calgary--

 

in fact, when I looked at a map I ached on seeing that our real

direction had been pretty much north since I'd loaded into the

truck.

     "Damn," I said softly, "I gotta get west!"

 

     I'd read On The Road in 1970, after Jack had died. Ever since

 

that warm Nairobi day, though, when I turned the last page as Sal

 

vanishes around the city corner and the world says goodbye to

forlorn Dean/Cody/Neal, and the children are sleeping and that

blanket which has held so much road and so many people and so much

 

narrative is once again shook out and cleaned for the next 'bo to

 

fill up and trample across and sleep in... ever since that day I've

 

been waiting at the world's shoulders and entrance ramps, sleeping

 

in ditches, running, hiding from the midnight cruise lights of

protective patrols, and waiting waiting waiting for that time when

 

for some unknown reason his spirit would drift down from the

celeste, as would one of St. Theresa's petals, and find me on that

 

road heading north to head west.

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <950629070026_104654329@aol.com>

 

Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD.  Do you

all think he's the right director?  At any rate, he's doing it.  My guess

is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible.  Al

 

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Gene Simakowicz wrote:

 

> Wow!

> I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

> the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

> about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

> 

> Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

> If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

> 

> Gene

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:46:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Willard Goodwin <wgoodwin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU

 

Lisa Bonelli wrote:

 

>    I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

>    of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

>    researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite

>often) ...I have

>    found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

>    this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

>    who has also done grad. work on Kerouac ...

 

Lisa: At the risk of duplicating what you already know, I list here seven

works about Kerouac (books and dissertations based on research in the

manuscript collections at the Humanities Research Center, University of

Texas at Austin). Of course, there's much more (including more recent

stuff), but since these titles are ready to hand, I thought you might like

to see the list. Best wishes, Will.

 

Cassady, Carolyn. Heart Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal. Berkeley:

Creative Arts Book Co., 1976.

 

Charters, Ann. Kerouac: a Biography. London: Andre Deutsch, 1973.

 

Gifford, Barry, and Lawrence Lee. Jack's Book: an Oral Biography of Jack

Kerouac. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1978.

 

Hudson, Lee. Beat Generation Poetics and the Oral Tradition of Literature.

Doctoral diss., University of Texas at Austin, 1973.

 

Hunt, Timothy Arthur. Off the Novel: the Literary Maturation of Jack

Kerouac. Doctoral diss., Cornell University, 1975.

 

McNally, Dennis S. Desolate Angel, a Biography: Jack Kerouac, the Beat

Generation, and America. New York: Random House, 1979.

 

Tytell, John. Naked Angels: the Lives and Literature of the Beat

Generation. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1976.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 23:33:49 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9506301457.C29692-0100000@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu>

              (message from DAVIS ALAN on Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500)

 

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

 

> Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD.  Do you all

> think he's the right director?

 

Who would you like?  I can't think of anybody better than Coppola.

 

I wonder how well they can cast Dean Moriarty.  That's essential.  I can't

think of any name actor that can do it.

 

> My guess is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible.

 

I got news for you, kid.  It already is a text.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:32:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

 

don't forget nicosia joyce johnson and carolyn cassady's off the road.

there's also a book by a professor and the univ of lowell who befriended kerouac

 in the late sixties - i forget his name.  interesting book/look at e period

in k's life that most gloss over because it's so depressing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac   movie

 

latest rumors i've heard from levi asher (literary kicks, web page) is

that coppola is directing it, not gus van sant. another rumor is that

dean will be played by sean penn and sal will be brad pitt. all this is

rumor so you didn't hear it from me. check out lit. kicks beat news for

more info than i can remember.

i just subscribed to this list yesterday and i must say i am impressed.

its so great to find others who are into the beats. five years ago i

really had to search for their books, now they're all over. should we

send the gap a thank you note?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 20:07:03 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject:      Previous Kerouac Movie?

 

About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

his life. I also can't remember the title.

 

Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

and, if you saw it, what it was like?

 

Ron

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:56:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Aaron Hill <adhill@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac thesis

 

Howdy,

        I don't know if this is your angle or not, but I did some work on

Kerouac's family, and their influence on him.  I found that his ties to his

mother (whom he referred to as 'ma mere'), his sister, and catholicism were

at least as profound as those to his friends.  Unfortunately for Jack,

these two groups didn't seem to mingle too well and I imagine that this

strained his relationship to both.  Oh, don't forget that his family was

French-Canadian and that he didn't speak English until he was 4 or 5.  I

read a biography of Kerouac by a French-Canadian author (whose name I can't

remember right now) which explored this aspect of his life in detail.  If

you're interested, I can look it up.

 

                                                        Aaron

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jun 1995 22:01:53 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Eric Trondson-Clinger <tronson@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

 

>About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

>about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

>whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

>his life. I also can't remember the title.

> 

>Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

>and, if you saw it, what it was like?

 

There was a documentary called just "Kerouac" I believe and Carolyn

Cassady's "Heartbeat" was also made into a move in about 1976 with Nick

Nolte. Haven't seen either of 'em tho...

 

 Submit gloried prose-pics-poetry to the beautiful mag-book-zine Holyboy Road

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Eric Trondson-Clinger                           Holyboy Road Home Page

 tronson@primenet.com                       http://www.primenet.com/~tronson/

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 "Was it nice, Jack?" - "All women are nice."    Larry Smith and Jack

Kerouac

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Jul 1995 00:54:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mike H. from Md." <mikeh@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>

Subject:      Re: My first time

In-Reply-To:  <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>

 

On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Madeleine Charney wrote:

 

> It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

> summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

> season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

> 

> I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

> (year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

> Open to anything new.

 

    Damn!  At the age when I should have been reading Kerouac, I was

reading the classics that everyone else was avoiding!  Now, years later.

I'm just starting to catch up!

     Thanks for all the comments.  If I'd had some of this stimulating

conversation, I would have gotten into Kerouac years ago!

Mike, Lurking in Md.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 1 Jul 1995 01:05:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

 

i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

as always,

 

das beatnik7

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:35:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To:  <199507010805.BAA03010@ix5.ix.netcom.com>

 

_Visions of Cody_

 

It took me three months, but I think it is Kerouac's finest work.  I read

it only after having read everything else of his, including _Pic_.

 

Michael Bertsch

Athena University

VOU, Inc.

http://www.iac.net/~billp/

Virtual Campus: telnet brazos.iac.net 8888

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 11:59:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

 

We should change this thread to "VoC - Kerouac's finest book".  I too am a

steadfast VoC partisan - THAT is the novel I'm always foisting on others -

especially them who disliked OtR.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

 

At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

(including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

 

Nick W-W

 

 

 

>i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

>yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

>web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

>the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

>page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

>film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

>fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

>i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

>as always,

> 

>das beatnik7

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 23:54:24 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To:  <199507032013.AA128292395@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

              Weir-Williams on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500)

 

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

 

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-final version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus ... It contains an annotated

> version of the Dharma Bums,

 

On paper?

 

> ... and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that I

> never knew even existed.

 

What?  Well come on, man, don't keep us in suspense.  What is it like?  Is it

just Dr Sax cartoons?  When did he do it?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      kerouac and snyder

 

hello all--

 

with regards to books written by kerouac:  how do the participants on this

list feel about _dharma bums_?

 

and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

dependent on nationality.  i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Jul 1995 00:32:37 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To:  <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU> (message from THE WORLD IS ITS

              OWN MAGIC on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500)

 

> From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

 

> with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

 

This was the second Kerouac book I read (after OTR) and I was expecting

something similar, which is probably why I didn't like it much.  It had its

moments, though.  It is not nearly as exciting as OTR, and over the years I've

never gone back to reread it.  But thinking about it now it doesn't seem so

bad, and its description of the west coast poetry scene was very interesting.

I'd like to go back and check this one out again...

 

Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

and that the writing was not Jack's best.  Perhaps someone else can recall for

us exactly what he said about it.  But I for one have always been a bit

mystified by Ginsberg's estimations of Jack's books -- if I recall he was very

keen on Visions of Cody, which I find long, boring and impenetrable -- and

this is coming from someone with a healthy tolerance for Jack's notorious

self-indulgence.

 

VoC is not a novel, it's more like a weird kind of reference book...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:57:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To:  <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

 

Regarding Snyder--

 

It would be best, in my opinion, to approach Snyder through the Native

American sense of place coupled with Basho's reverence for place.  You

can look to Snyder books like _Turtle Island_ and his translations of

Japanese Haiku.  The bridge image is Japhy jumping from boulder to

boulder dressed only in a jock strap.  You might recall the Japanese

'fundoshi', the sild deaper-like garment now worn by Sumo wrestlers, but

which has a long and glorious tradition in the Samurai culture.

 

Michael Bertsch

 

On Mon, 3 Jul 1995, THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC wrote:

 

> hello all--

> 

> with regards to books written by kerouac:  how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

> 

> and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

> gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

> and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

> in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

> dependent on nationality.  i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

> 

> claudia

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:59:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and snyder

Comments: To: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <9507032132.AA37502@rs580a.haifa.ibm.com>

 

Josheph Rodriguez is right--VoC is not a novel, but he is also wrong: it

is more a poem than a reference book.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 3 Jul 1995 21:52:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and snyder

 

i agree that _dharma bums_ probably lacks the 'magic' (if that's the

right word) that _on the road_ possesses.  from a zen/buddhist

perspective, i think, it illustrates the tension between

studying zen and living zen and it raises the question to which

extent the dharma bums actually did understand the dharma

(clearly, there's more to zen than yabyums)-- but that's the

old scholar vs. practitioner debate that the folks on buddha-l

have recently fought (yet again).

 

what interests me in synder is his encompassing approach to myth

(i.e. the images he draws out of shamanic rituals and buddhist

philosophy).  place figures very importantly in his poetry and

essays, but only as sort of a 'triggering town' (to borrow

richard hugo's phrase).  and then there is, of course, the

place of the mind--the back country--to which one must go and

return from to effect change in one's self and one's society.

i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

speaks to the readers on this list.  if yes, how?  if no,

why not?

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:26:22 GMT

Reply-To:     JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

 

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

> contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

> (including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

> playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

> writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

> I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

> around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

> 

 

Where will I be able to get a copy?

 

--

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:31:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject:      A Jack Kerouac ROMnibus

In-Reply-To:  <35295@ldta.demon.co.uk>

 

For full details of this, check:

 

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/titles/kerouac/

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Jul 1995 23:51:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Mary Maguire 362 7134 <mmaguire@OSM.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Snyder

 

Joseph Rodrigue wrote re _Dharma Bums_:

 

> Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

> and that the writing was not Jack's best.  Perhaps someone else can recall for

> us exactly what he said about it.

 

I enjoyed _Dharma Bums_ very much and appreciated it even more once I had

read the Ginsberg biography by Barry Miles, in which many of the _Dharma

Bums_ events are retold using the characters' real names.

 

Ginsberg, after reading an advance copy of D.B., wrote the following to

Jack:

 

"The whole thing's a great piece of religion testament book, strange thing

to be published. . . . You settling down in simpler prose, or just tired

like you said? Montgomery is great in there, and Gary is fine too.  I

don't dig myself (too inconsistent mentally)(in the arguments). It is a

big teaching book which is rare and spooky."

 

Barry Miles goes on to say that, although Ginsberg "didn't regard the book

as up to Kerouac's usual standard, this didn't stop him from promoting it

for all he was worth".

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

Mary Maguire

mmaguire@osm.utoronto.ca                              Toronto, Canada

 

"... a hum came suddenly into his head, which seemed to him

a Good Hum, such as is Hummed Hopefully to Others."

_____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 4 Jul 1995 21:52:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac and snyder and pigeonholes

 

Claudia writes:

>i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

>community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

>speaks to readers on this list.

 

 

claudia

 

 

     I'm curious also.   Having heard him in San Francisco

before we both went to Japan  (for different reasons), and

then again at an ecology conference in Kansas in the seventies,

and as a distinguished voice from the past giving a reading

in the eighties, I am aware that he and his thought and writing

have changed over the years - as they have changed me.

 

     I think he has managed to break out of the pigeonhole that

controls and strangles the "beats" = their return to popularity

is in many ways, I think, a way of keeping them and the spirit

they represented at the time under control.  True followers of

the beats would I feel follow their spirit, and not simply

worship them as if from a faraway time.

 

Tom Bell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:18:10 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      ....

 

As a product of "institutionalized education" I have always done what was

expected of me.  I regurgitated grammar and wrote what my

instructor wanted to hear; in a form that he/she approved

of, with proper punctuation, of course...etc, I'm sure you have the idea.

 

Kerouac goes against all that brainwashing and blind obedience.  He has

given me one of the greatest gifts I've ever gotten from an author...the

courage to go against what others want to hear and to listen to my instincts,

at least when it comes to my personal writing.  The stuff I churn out on paper

I don't reveal to anyone...but to feel the freedom and to let go of the

control has been the best thing I have ever done for me.  Thanks Jack.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:48:16 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Re: ....

 

Regarding Kristen VanRiper's observations on the liberating effect reading

Kerouac has had on her prose style, I think we can carry things too far

sometimes. Let's not forget that when Kerouac began his experiments with

 

spontaneous prose, he had already written a million words and mastered the

more traditional styles of prose composition.  He wasn't jettisoning what

had gone before, he used it as the point of departure for his forays into

 

new modes of expression. This issue reminds me of the message we had last

week wherein a list participant asked whether we though he should spend

his summer reading the classics or reading Kerouac. My answer, like I

think Jack's would be, is "read the classics if you haven't read them."

 

Kerouac certainly did. He was conversant in the works of all the great

masters of literature, even if he didn't emulate them in his own work.

Kerouac would frequently hide out in one place or another with armloads

 

of what is considered "great literature" not because he wanted to put

his mind in some jail, but because as an artist he needed to know what

had come before. Much has been made of the jazz nexus in Kerouac's work,

 

and he clearly was trying to recreate the natural rhythms and expressions

found in the music of Charlie Parker and others. But don't forget that the

great jazzmen were (and still are) the consummate masters of their

 

instruments. Miles Davis could soar into rapturous flights of inspiration

only because he had honed his skills to the point where intention and

expression were one mind-body event. So, if you don't know how to punc-

 

tuate a sentence, don't expect to write like Kerouac. If you haven't

read Celine, Blake, Milton and Shakespeare, don't expect to achieve

Jack's depth.  If you're not the master of your craft, don't be sur-

 

prised if your prose is pedestrian. Jack's way is not the lazy,

undisciplined way - that was the insult his critics threw at him.

Recognize the rigor behind the rapture.

 

Just my thoughts.  Not intended as a flame of anyone's POV.  Thanks

for reading!

 

Mark Gordon

 

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."  -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 14:57:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Are You On Our Mailing List?

 

Our mail-order catalogue is filled with the best from Beat writers: Kerouac -

Ginsberg - Burroughs - Corso - Whalen - McClure, many others. Nice used

copies, scarce first editions, recordings, videos, posters, T-shirts, etc.

Thousands of Beat items in stock. Lots of Bukowski too. If you'd like to be

placed on our mailing list, please send your snail-mail address. It's free.

Satisfaction guaranteed. Free Search Service too.

Cisco Harland

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

Fax 508-229-0885

e-mail waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 19:35:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

 

Tom Peyer

11005 SW 88th Street #C-107

Miami FL 3376

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:41:16 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject:      summary

 

Friends of Beat-L,

    I'm going to post this directly to the list, since my "replies" to other

postings don't seem to have made it.  The volume of postings is getting hard

to keep up with, so if you're only scanning to find "new" contributions you'll

want to quickly delete this and move on.  What I wanted to contribute was a

partial summary of postings to date.

    There has been an explosion of activity on this list in the past two

weeks, after a relatively small amount of activity when it first started.  The

first postings that I remember had to do with the rumored film of OTR, rumored

to be directed by Coppola, who was rumored to be casting Sean Penn as Moriarty

and Brad Pitt as Sal (or it may have been the other way around).  Discussion

about the casting proposed other Hollywood stars (after noting that K.

himself, back then, proposed Brando as Moriarty and Monty Clift as Sal) for

the lead roles--Gary Oldman (Moriarty), Johnny Depp (Sal), etc.  A friend of

mine who has written a wonderful novel which conjures up some images of Neil

Cassady exploded over the casting and said the people who should be playing

those parts are in the coffee shops and road hangouts, not in Hollywood

agents' offices.

     Another recent topic of interest seems to be "that movie" about Kerouac.

The one I remember was called "What Ever Happened to Jack Kerouac?"--an

excellent video documentary that included the classic film clip of Jack

reading from OTR while Steve Allen improvised jazz on his piano.

    The topic of K's writing habits--was OTR produced in one (benzedrine

tended to be a stimulant of choice at the time) mind-altered session, or was

it the product of careful redrafting?  I've primarily heard the written in one

session version--although it was probably not done on "computer paper rolls"

(as one friend suggested), since pc's weren't on the scene at that point.  I

have read that he had some sort of continuous roll of paper that it was

produced on, though (or maybe I "heard" that--the ongoing oral history of the

Beats).  The jazz improvisation, stream of consciousness was definitely an

important part of his writing.  As a related thread--Kerouac the poet vs.

Kerouac the novelist: we've been reminded of Mexico City Blues as an important

part of his work (and one that the person who had arrived at reading Kerouac

after being primarily interested in poetry should check out).

     Another interesting thread has been the Zen connection to the Beats

(critical appraisal's of Dharma Bums; Gary Snyder's work), and through it some

important observations and challenges concerning the way we perceive "the

Beats"--as a historical period or a way of being/frame of mind and spirit that

continues (maybe both).  A related interlinear has been the occasional

surfacing of "critical theory" discourse on the importance of Beat literature

in relation to the "classics"--which aspects of the Beat voice speak to whom

and why.

    The "my first time" (reading OTR) thread has produced some remarkably

poignant vignettes--I'd like to try to put them together and make the

collection available to the list.

   Finally, one of the things that I value most about the discussion on this

list has been the developing sense of the people who are

contributing--Kristen, Claudia, "jrodriguez" (identified from the email

address), and Mark Gordon (who posted some of the earlier messages that got

the list going and has contributed some valuable insights from a writer's

perspective).  Thanks to all of you for enriching the List.

     Keep that level of thought and feeling!

Brian

Melbourne, Australia (via Denver, Berkeley, and LA)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

 

i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

of urgency.  and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence.  in that respect

it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

 

as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

about the relative literary merits . . .  ginsberg is a top notch

marketing expert . . .  i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

that was/is sheer genius.

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:09:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

 

>i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

>line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

>but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

>of urgency.  and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

>struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence.  in that respect

>it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

> 

>as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

>about the relative literary merits . . .  ginsberg is a top notch

>marketing expert . . .  i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

>that was/is sheer genius.

> 

>claudia

 

I was just reading in Tom Clark's biography of kerouac that he complained

that the editor (malcolm Cowly, I think) edited out all the catholic parts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 02:08:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Crank Beat-L mail; do not open if you'll be charged.

 

Sorry to dump all of this extra mail on you all...

 

First, there was the letter composed only of my name and street address,

which I intended to send only to the people who solicited the beat literature

catalog...

 

And now this pitiful follow-up, which asks only that you please don't show up

on my doorstep.

 

Your pal,

 

Tom Peyer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 06:36:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

 

timothy--

 

i haven't read clark's bio of kerouac (yet).  what did kerouac say

about the catholic parts being edited out of _db_ by cowley?  what sort

of things had kerouac included?  it seems to me that catholic myth/ritual

etc. would have given the book a broader range or greater depth

(in the joe campbell sense of comparative mythologies).  most

interesting.  hm.  . . .

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:33:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      zen

 

Seeing postings about Kerouac and Zen made me realize a sense that I have

gotten from the little I have read by him.  In _Visions of Gerard_,

Jack wrote about his Catholic upbringing and his sainted brother.

His exaggerated glorification of Christian ways and Christian people shows

how this way of life, this Catholicism, ultimately absorbs the present and

focuses only on that which may or may not happen in the future.  I think it

was his first realization of the "denial of life" and the obsession with an

"afterlife" that people get sucked into...it's what probably gave him the

urge to go on the road...not wanting to be stuck worrying about what would

happen when he died...wanting to be alive.

 

Regarding the emoting I did yesterday, :), I just want to elaborate...

Jazz is a feeling, true, but there are progressions that one must

learn.  Not all feelings make sense or are expressed in a way that others

might understand unless they are clarified.  A truly great jazz artist is

one that develops these skills over time...and I do believe that

improvisation is a developed art form.  I only wrote that blurb because I

have always had a hard time transferring emotion to my fingers (in music

and writing) and since I've been reading Kerouac, and other authors that

I have neglected for some time, I've been able to express myself.  I was

merely basking in the freedom I have found. :)  Take it easy. Kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:37:43 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Some thoughts on Kerouac's "method"

 

Hi. I'm coming out of lurk-only mode to comment on a couple of recent posts

I think may indicate a lack of understanding of Jack and his grounding in

classic literature and compositional styles. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A FLAME

 

OF ANYONE. I'd rather disconnect my internet access than get into a war of

words.  I just think that we fans of Kerouac can very often fall into the trap

of unknowingly siding with those who criticized him so viciously during his

 

lifetime.  The two posts I refer to are Kristen's recent comment on how reading

Jack has liberated her own prose style from the prison of conventional grammar

and punctuation, and an anonymous post wherein the writer asked whether we

 

thought he should spend his summer reading the classics or not. I think those of

us who love Jack's work should remember that he was solidly grounded in both

the canon of classic literature and conventional prose composition.  Let's not

 

forget that he had already written a million words by the time he began experime

nting with his spontaneous method. Rather than simply jettisoning what had gone

before, Kerouac used it as a point of departure for his forays into new modes

 

of expression. When , in Kerouac's name, we reject out of hand the conventions

 ofEnglish composition, we run the risk of making the case for Jack's critics

 who

accused him of being lazy and undisciplined. Jack had already mastered standard

 

composition when he wrote OTR. If you haven't mastered it, don't expect to

emulate him. A useful parallel for this is jazz, the source of so much of

Jack's inspiration.  Charlie Parker, the father of bop, was a consummate

 

musician.  Before he could soar into flights of rapturous ecstacy, he had to

spend years mastering the rudiments of his instrument and his art. If you were

to ask Charlie Parker to play a Bach fugue, he could do it, though perhaps he'd

 

prefer not to. Whether it's Jack or Bird, take care to see and hear the rigor

behind the rapture. In the same vein, let's remember that Jack was intimately

familiar with the grat classics of literature.  He had read everything from S

 

Shakespeare to Milton to Celine to Hemingway. Certainly he didn't like it all,

and he clearly didn't emulate it all, but he knew it, and that knowledge gave

a depth to his own work that resonates throughout the Duluoz Legend. In my

 

own opinion, if you are sitting down to read Kerouac but haven't read Wolfe,

Faulkner or Celine, read them first. Jack did. Again, the charge of his critics

was that his work stood alone, outside the mainstream of American letters, and

 

that this was chiefly becase the author himself didn't display a familiarity

with the past. Those critics were wrong about Jack. Let's not make them right

about us.  Thanks for reading.  Sorry for the length. Peace to all.

 

Mark Gordon

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."  -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500 from

              <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

 

Dharma Bums was the first book that really "hooked" me on Kerouac.  The

magic of the hitchhiker and his rucksack, the fabulous opening sequence with

the midnight ghost and the old bum who prayed to Saint Theresa of the Flowers,

and the descriptions of mountain climbing and S.F. poetry renaissance (Howl be-

comes Wail, and of course it is K. who takes up the collection for bottles of

wine), were enough to prompt me at the age of fifteen to get an old duffle bag

and leave what really was (through my now adult eyes) an intolerable home situ-

ation.  He taught me to hang out my thumb and trust my instincts, even gave me

a spirituality (zen) to combat the influence of, ironically, a strict catholic

upbringing.  For these I'll always be grateful to Dharma Bums.  Still, now that

I'm older and have reread most of Kerouac's work several times, I believe

 

On the Road has far more literary merit.  I still enjoy Dharma Bums (and find

something more to like about it every time I read it), but the rhythm and ener-

gy of On the Road are unlike book written before or since, stylistically it is

unique in American literature.  In On the Road Kerouac pinned down what it is

to be young and American (and male?).  Distance becomes a metaphor for possi-

bility (check out Tom Waits' medley Ballad of Neal and Jack/California Here I

Come for a feel for what I mean).  Regarding Dharma Bums, I read a quote from

Kerouac somewhere (Jack's Book?) where he said D.B. was written to allow him to

keep the cupboard full of tins of meat for the cat and jugs of wine, or some-

thing to that effect.  While I'm not that cynical (and K. may have said this

 

 

 

later in his life when he was dour about just about everything), I do think

that D.B. is less ground-breaking literature than a good story.  Hell, most

writers are lucky if they can pull even that off.

   I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans.  In my opinion that

book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

                                                            Win Mattingly

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:13:07 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Double Posting

 

I think I've posted a couple of long messages to the list in the last

couple of days, but I can't be sure because they're not coming to me.

Sorry if I've chewed up anybody's bandwidth.  Could someone email me

 

and let me know whether these messages are getting to all of the other

list recipients or not?  Thanks.

 

Mark

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."  -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      The Desolation Angels

In-Reply-To:  In reply to your message of THU 06 JUL 1995 08:46:11 EDT

 

I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained

material originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript. I

would love to see a release of _that_ manuscript... when TS Eliot's

Wasteland manuscript was published, I was really drawn in by the notes,

comments, and corrections supplied by Pound, Eliot, and others.

Imagine marketing the teletype manuscript as just that, a roll of paper

(instead of a bound book).

Does anyone know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it

housed?

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:48:58 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Robert Johnson <johnsorl@COLORADO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Double Posting

Comments: To: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

In-Reply-To:  <199507061413.AA18291@osfn.rhilinet.gov>

 

        Yes, your messages have appeared. Some list groups do not post

        messages back to the sender. Just cc your postings back to yourself

        then you can be sure of their arrival to the list at large.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:02:56 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      OTR teletype roll

In-Reply-To:  <06JUL95.11471647.0015.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> (JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU)

 

> From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

 

> I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained material

> originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript ... Does anyone

> know whether the roll still exists?  If so, where is it housed?

 

I read a passage from the roll once ... it was quite different from OTR as

published.  I can't believe no one has tried to squeeze money out of

publishing the original roll.  It would be fascinating reading.

 

As for the person who was talking the other day about Kerouac never revising

-- get in touch with me.  I've got a bridge for you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:05:17 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Re: The Desolation Angels

 

My understanding is that Kerouac typed OTR on narrow rolls of Japanese

wallpaper, double length, which he then taped together to form one

continuous surface. I think that comes from Nicosia's book, or perhaps

 

Tytell's. I seem to remember also that the rolls were lost or destroyed

when turned in to the publisher for transcription and editing. Then again,

I could be wrong.  Thanks for letting me know about the double posting.

 

I think I've got the hang of the routine now.

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"He not busy being born is busy dying."  -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:32:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Subterraneans

 

To my shame, I only just read 'The Subterraneans'. It is different, and, I

agree, as lyrical and as close to a love story as I think he ever wrote. I

collect old Kerouac paperbacks for the covers as much as anything else (does

anyone else do this, incidentally - you can find some wonderful things in

second-hand bookstores) and The Subterranenans edition I read, I was too

ashamed to read on the Chicago 'L' going to work - clearly being sold in the

70's with a cover both sexist and racist. But the book is a love affair,

really, told in one breath.

 

Re Ginsberg: he may have claimed not to have liked -DB- but he was happy to

read it on audio (released in the last few years) and take the money...

 

>   I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans.  In my opinion that

>book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

>reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

>taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

>                                                            Win Mattingly

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:59:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Desolation Angels

 

rumor has it that:

The OTR teletype roll is presently on deposit at the New York Public Library.

Previous to its move there recently, it sat

in the safe at lit agent Sterling Lord's office.

 

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 19:57:51 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      subterraneans

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95070609445880@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> (message from Win

              Mattingly on Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT)

 

> From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

 

> I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans.  In my opinion that

> book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

 

Please.  What's sexist and racist about it?  Try getting out of the dodo PC

mindset and use your brain for a change.

 

This has to be one of the most self-indulgent books I've ever read.  No one

picked up on that?  Or do you just fawn over everything you read?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:21:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Matthew C. Curcio" <curcio@BIOC02.UTHSCSA.EDU>

Subject:      folklore

 

Hello

 

I too have just joined on board with you beats.

 

I also liked Kirsten interpretaion of _Visions of Gerard_.

Not having a sibling that passed away, I thought the angelic nature of

Jacks younger brother was due to the inocence and beauty of youth.

IMHO I thought this elevation to sainthood was due the lackof outside

forces that played so strongly on Jack's life that did not play on the

child of Gerard.  For example, the strict catholic school upbringing that

Jack had which forced conformity of language, societal rules etc on Jack.

 

seemingly corrupted as the

outside forces of society and post WWII conformity laid down its

oppressive blanket on Jack.

 

Aother point that seems to dovetail with the sainthood of characters was

something also from the listserv.

 

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

 

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance).  No

puncuation, no nothing.  Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

 

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity).  Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

 

The Folklore that I have seen on the writing of OTR is that

Jack wrote the book on newswire paper.  (You know that big rolls that

were used for the old AP machines.  The 'Folklore' says that he wrote it

in 3 weeks. Writing for days at a time while on speed and then crashing

for as long.  The book may not have contained all the proper punctuation

but it also was written without chapter format.  Jack had left all the

names that mattered to him in the first draft,(ie the some of the real

names) and the rest he foughtfor as little editing as possible.

 

But then again these are only second hand accounts I have read.

 

Also,  I have an other book on Zen that I would like to suggest that is IMHO

better than _Zen and the Art ..._  It is _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones_ edited

and compiled by Persal(?) P??? something.  These are small stories and

meditations that are really great.

 

Enjoy,

Matthew

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:33:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Desolation Angels

 

FYI: Kerouac's original teletype roll manuscript for OTR is now on display

at the New York Public Library in New York City.

 

Frank Beacham

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:52:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

 

>timothy--

> 

>i haven't read clark's bio of kerouac (yet).  what did kerouac say

>about the catholic parts being edited out of _db_ by cowley?  what sort

>of things had kerouac included?  it seems to me that catholic myth/ritual

>etc. would have given the book a broader range or greater depth

>(in the joe campbell sense of comparative mythologies).  most

>interesting.  hm.  . . .

> 

>claudia

 

 

I don't know.  It was a one line sort of thing.  It said that kerouac

complained Cowley took all the catholicism out (in a qutoe that I cannot

remember verbatim) and also that he would never write another potboiler

again (also a quote).  Each quote was referenced, but that was all there

was on the subject.

 

I agree with your point of view that it would have made the book richer.  I

think we can look at Tristessa and Visions of Gerard to get an idea of what

it might have been like if these parts hadn't been edited out.

 

Tim

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:53:52 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bruce Greeley <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR teletype roll

Comments: To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

 

I just joined this list....

In a brief news segment anniversary on the New York Public Library

recently on t.v. , they mentioned (and showed) this sacred On the Road

original teletype roll housed in the archives there!!

someone check it out for me!

- Greeley not Creeley

----------

From: Joseph Rodrigue  <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L  <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: OTR teletype roll

Date: Thursday, July 06, 1995 6:02PM

 

> From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

 

> I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained material

> originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript ... Does anyone

> know whether the roll still exists?  If so, where is it housed?

 

I read a passage from the roll once ... it was quite different from OTR as

published.  I can't believe no one has tried to squeeze money out of

publishing the original roll.  It would be fascinating reading.

 

As for the person who was talking the other day about Kerouac never revising

-- get in touch with me.  I've got a bridge for you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:19:22 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR teletype roll

 

The OTR scroll is in the care and keeping of the Berg Collection of the

New York Public Library. Yes, it was on display during the same period as

the Kerouac Conference at NYU at the beginning of June. Incidentally, the

NYPL  will be the repository of the Kerouac archives as they are

cataloged, etc. and already contains a bunch of stuff.

 

 

Mark Hemenway

mhemenway@s1.drc.com

 

Co-Editor "Dharma beat" the magazine of all things Kerouac, and

Chairman of Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!

 

Join us in Lowell, MA, 4-9 October for the Eighth Annual Kerouac Festival

 

"Everyone comes home in October."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:51:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Frank Beacham (via RadioMail)" <beacham@RADIOMAIL.NET>

Subject:      OTR Roll Still on Display

 

The Kerouac scroll of OTR is still on display (at least it was last week)

on the third floor at the NY Public Library.  According to info at the

exhibit it will soon be copied using some high quality duplication process

due to its deteriorating condition.

 

There was also a mention among panelists (on a publishing panel) at the

recent Kerouac conference at NYU of the possibility that a fascimile OTR

scroll that's an exact replica of the original might be published in the

near future.   From what was said such a publishing project is under active

consideration but not certain by any means.

 

Frank Beacham

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR Roll Still on Display

In-Reply-To:  In reply to your message of THU 06 JUL 1995 01:51:23 EDT

 

Jack told Steve Allen that the manuscript was typed on a teletype roll,

and that it took three weeks to write. From memory, I think the exchange

goes something like this:

Steve: Three weeks??? How long were you on the road?

Jack: Six years

Steve: I was once on the road for three weeks and it took six years to

write about it.

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:05:37 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Racist/sexist projection in The Subterraneans

 

I think the debate over the allegedly sexist or racist nature of The

Subterraneans is misguided and exemplary of the mindset which condemns

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn for its use of the "N" word.

 

Let us admit that Kerouac was a product of his times and his background as

first generation white American. Like many other white people, then and now,

he romanticized the culture, personalities and even bodies of African-

 

Americans. Who can help but chuckle when they read his paean to the

"happy Negroes of America" in OTR? We know that African-Americans aren't

all that happy all the time. Why should they be? They're just people and

people aren't typically elated, to put it mildly. Kerouac was

 

romanticizing them, objectifying them in a way, because his experience

of their lives as actually lived was so meager. Also, he was pining to

be anything other than what he so drearily was at that moment: a white

 

man. It's the same with Mardou. She is strange to him. Alien. He can't

imagine what it's like to be inside her skin and so he concentrates on the

part of her that is different from other women he's known: her hair, her

 

cheekbones, the color and texture of her skin. This is entirely natural.

Which of us who has had an intimate relationship with someone of another

race hasn't felt the tingle of the exotic, that almost intoxicating

 

fascination that comes from close proximity to someone so attractive and

yet so physically different? If you claim otherwise, I say you're a liar.

You just didn't write honestly about it, as Jack did. Most of us who

 

persist in these relationships soon find that the object of our affection

is indeed no different than we are on the inside. People are just people,

after all. But there is power and mystery in physical differences. The

 

problem today is how to express that mystery without some moral cop writing

you a ticket.

 

Sexism is a much greater problem in Kerouac. It's clear that he was nearly

misogynistic in his views toward women, views no doubt reinforced by

heterosexual cads like Cassady as well as homosexual

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:59:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      To flame or not to flame

 

This observation could just as easily apply to almost every list or

Usenet group I've looked at in my short time on the Net. And applies to

pretty much every other Net group more than it does here, where I've

found most everyone to be sweet and generous.

 

Alot of Net users are gregarious and bold, the anonimity of the

situation empowering them to say whatever they feel.  The same freedom

that allows a self-taught person to converse with an academic

encourages some people to attack others simply because they can.  I'm

afraid a couple of my friends who helped with my setup before I got on

line I now recognize are of this type.  They like to attack others,

belittle them and mock them.  I guess most of us have never felt free

to walk into a room and laugh at the first person who opens his mouth.

For some reason this is very exciting to some people.

 

I haven't seen it happen here, but I know most of us have experienced

it in one form or another because there is a distinct fear of flaming

between the lines of many of the posts on BEAT-L.  Statements that

begin "This is just my opinion PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME" show this fear.

I think most of us are gentle souls looking for friends and no matter

how "safe" the internet is, nobody wants to be jumped on for stating

his opinion. I think most of us think harder than we should have to

about what we post out of fear of an individual or group reacting with

harsh and painful words. Or more often, "if I disagree with this

person, will he/she think I am trying to hurt them".

 

This is an aspect of on line life I don't expect will change, but I

would state that I joined this list recently thinking it a literary

discussion group.  And it is, but how far can it go if we are afraid to

critisize or be critisized.  If I make a remark and you know or believe

differently, I would welcome a response.  I also hope to be able to

debate without hurting someone's feelings. I'd add that even more than

being afraid of flames, we are afraid someone will think our gentle

remarks are malicious and we are scared to disagree.

 

I make these comments not in response to anything on this list other

than three or four postings that contained emphatic apologies in

advance.

 

And I realize one of the main ways to get flamed is to write an overly

long message.  But I'm not apologizing. Responses of all sorts welcome.

 

                                                 Jeff Questad

                                                     Austin, Tx

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 20:23:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: To flame or not to flame

 

burn baby, burn.

 

or to be more specific:

 

 

"Whee. Sal, we gotta go and never stop going till we get there."

"Where we going, man?"

"I don't know but we gotta go."

        -Jack Kerouac, On The Road,  page 238

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

    The Radiation Group Globalmedia Designs

       Putting Your Business in Their Laptops

    http://www.magicnet.net/rz/rad_home.html

()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 22:18:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: To flame or not to flame

 

jeff--

 

i think flames differ from genuine disagreements about the content

of someone's message.  i have no problem with arguing my point(s)

and exchanging ideas.  how else will i be able to learn, if not

by being exposed to different opinions?  i might not agree with

all of them, i might reject some of them completely, or i might

see truth(s) in them.  but every exchange gives one an opportunity

to construct knowledge a bit differently (not to groove in the

same old constructs for all eternity).

 

the problem comes when people attack the writer of the message, rather

than the message.  i have been on lists where the usual reply

to post was something like "you moron, you have no idea what you

are talking about; let me show you the real truth!"  well, that's

unkind and unnecessary, and leads to those flame wars where positions

get so entrenched that genuine inter-change is impossible.

the culmination usually is some type of heated name-calling, in

which the person with the biggest four-letter vocab wrestles

everybody into submission.  it's fun to watch for about a day

or two, and then the delete button becomes my best friend.

 

i try to write my messages and responses with the realization of the

inherent buddha-nature in every sentient being, but at times,

due to the nature of this medium, words can obscure meaning

and intention . . .

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:00:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: To flame or not to flame

In-Reply-To:  <950706221829.6ae8@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

 

I am the Buddha known as the Poster.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:35:13 -0400

Reply-To:     ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject:      Re: To flame or not to flame

 

I've been on the net for about six years and have been involved in many

a flame war, particularly on the Usenet newsgroup sci.skeptic where, if

you even suggest a belief in God, you invite mortal combat. My experience

 

is that flame wars are just a big waste of time - all heat, no light.

Regrettably they are also a tool used by some cowardly souls whose only

power resides in the ability to post relatively anonymous text.

 

Whenever my comments are in direct response to someone else's, I always

include a flame disclaimer, not because I fear retribution, but because

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  If people want to come after me,

 

they're welcome to, but I won't come after them.

 

--

Mark S. Gordon

 

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:08:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      flaming?

 

I guess I'm a little dense, or the flaming has been private among other

readers, but I haven't read anything in this list that I would consider

to be flaming.  I've seen honest opinions, maybe some emotional

responses, but certainly nothing that I would take personally.  In fact,

the messages I received this morning all appeared to say the same

thing...this is an open forum and we should all respect the rights of

others to voice their opinion in a dignified manner.  It's what I enjoy

most about this list.  Personally, I'm not afraid of other people voicing

opinions that are contrary to my own, I am just not used to exposing my

soul to strangers (even to people I love dearly) so I tend to be shy

about intense subjects.  I don't get angry when people close their

minds...it makes me sad.  Intolerance is rampant in this world; I'd like

to think I found a place to be free of this disease. Peace to all. Kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:41:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      back to spontaneous prose

 

--

----------------------------------------------------------

             Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

 

 Creator of Literary Kicks, the Beat Literature Web Site

    URL: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

 

  Please preview my new Web project, Queensboro Ballads

        URL: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

 

"How can you have any pudding if you won't eat your meat?"

                     -- Pink Floyd

----------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Jul 1995 00:23:12 GMT

Reply-To:     simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Re: summary

 

Dear All

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you, whoever put this list together (was it you

Brian?).  I first read Kerouac at that time when I'd just left college and felt,

from the comfort of my own back garden, that I could do anything. He continues

to inspire me to go further and deeper, like no other writer has done or will

do. I recently kicked in my job and am now 'freelance' which is a lot to do with

the way this 'crazy dumbsaint of the mind' has affected me over the years.

 

Brian wrote:

 

>      Another interesting thread has been the Zen connection to the Beats

> (critical appraisal's of Dharma Bums; Gary Snyder's work), and through it some

> important observations and challenges concerning the way we perceive "the

> Beats"--as a historical period or a way of being/frame of mind and spirit that

> continues (maybe both).

 

Yes, I think it is a historical period which is particularly relevant to now,

although I can't quite put my finger on why. I feel it's a lot to do with

disaffection for traditional economic and political (in the widest sense)

processes, and the greater array of opportunities that so many of us are lucky

to have when compared to our parents' generation.  Coupland's novel 'Generation

X' sums this up well, although in a much less accomplished way than Kerouac's

work; it frees the spirit in the same way that OTR does.

 

--

Simon Okotie

North London

UK

 

  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  'Turning and turning in the widening gyre

   The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

   Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

   Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.'

 

                 W B Yeats

  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:17:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs and 3rd mind

 

I suspect there are alot of us on this list who are writers and who

have taken inspiration from the Kerouac and Ginsberg.  Is there anyone

who has read Third Mind by Burroughs and Gyson and perhaps done any of

that kind of writing?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:44:53 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: kerouac   movie

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700 from

              <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

 

On Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700 Thomas DeRosa said:

>latest rumors i've heard from levi asher (literary kicks, web page) is

>that coppola is directing it, not gus van sant. another rumor is that

>dean will be played by sean penn and sal will be brad pitt. all this is

>rumor so you didn't hear it from me. check out lit. kicks beat news for

>more info than i can remember.

>i just subscribed to this list yesterday and i must say i am impressed.

>its so great to find others who are into the beats. five years ago i

>really had to search for their books, now they're all over. should we

>send the gap a thank you note?

 

No need to worry about spreading rumors.  This info has appeared in print in a

number of publications including Time or Newsweek.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:28:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ed Zahniser <Ed_Zahniser@NPS.GOV>

Subject:      Re: _dharma bums_  / ginsberg

Comments: To: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

 

         The Contemporary American Theater Festival in Shepherdstown,

         WV (July 5-23) is doing John Lipsky's play "Maggie's Riff"

         about Kerouac & his looking back on his first love in

         hometown Lowell, Mass. For information call the festival at

         304-876-3473.

 

         These are equity actors, and they do a good job with the

         play.

 

         Ed

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:55:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Raymond Holloway <urhollow@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

In-Reply-To:  <950705145645_25814261@aol.com>

 

Ray Holloway

770 N. Halsted Suite 420

Chicago, IL 60622

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:57:30 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      eli wilentz obit

 

I was very pleased to find so much traffic on the list when I returned from vac

ation.  I also found that Eli Wilentz, co-owner of the legendary Eighth Street

Bookshop and publisher of the Corinth Press which published Kerouac's Scripture

 of the Golden Eternity, among others, had passed away.   For anyone interested

there's an obituary in the New York Times on Monday June 26, Section B, page 8.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:33:49 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: The Desolation Angels

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

 

On Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained

>material originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript. I

>would love to see a release of _that_ manuscript... when TS Eliot's

>Wasteland manuscript was published, I was really drawn in by the notes,

>comments, and corrections supplied by Pound, Eliot, and others.

>Imagine marketing the teletype manuscript as just that, a roll of paper

>(instead of a bound book).

>Does anyone know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it

>housed?

>Jim Stedman

 

The roll manuscript was on display at the New York Public Library last week.  T

here was some talk about publishing a facsimile of it at the NYU conference las

t month.  The roll is in fairly bad shape.  If it is published, it will probabl

y be expensive.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:20:51 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: OTR Roll Still on Display

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT from <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

 

On Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:57:09 EDT Stedman, Jim said:

>Jack told Steve Allen that the manuscript was typed on a teletype roll,

>and that it took three weeks to write. From memory, I think the exchange

>goes something like this:

>Steve: Three weeks??? How long were you on the road?

>Jack: Six years

>Steve: I was once on the road for three weeks and it took six years to

>write about it.

>Jim Stedman

There's always been some confusion as to what type of roll OTR was typed on.  S

ometimes, I've wondered if there wasn't a second roll manuscript.  The roll at

NYPL looks like a teletype roll to me -- cheap yellow paper.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:31:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and 3rd mind

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

 

Hi,

I've read The Third Mind four or five times over the years (it's usually

been through academic libraries because it's been out of print for years) and

have in fact done work with my own aleatory texts.  I agree with Burroughs

that some conscious manipulation on the part of the author (or assembler) is

necessary to make it worthwhile.  The whole point is that there are three

guiding intelligences at work.  It's fun to do and one invariably comes up

with stuff that is engaging, hilarious, or creepy.  A lot of it is boring too -

that's where the auctorial hand should make itself known.  'rub the words out' i

n all its permutations can get kind of samey, but 'the razor inside. jerk the

handle.' or 'lonesome blue train whistle 1920s etc.' fit the bill (no pun

intended) nicely.  i think it's a terrific prose technique and deserves a

place in the palette of any writer.

 

adam cohen-siegel

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:40:09 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject:      Digest option

 

A number of people have asked about receiving Beat-L as a digest rather

than individual postings. Easily done. Just send the following message to

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu (*not* to beat-l!!):

      set beat-l digest

That's all there is to it. Should you want to receive individual postings

again, send mail again to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu with the following message:

      set beat-l mail

 

Fred Bogin

William Gargan

Beat-L owners

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:27:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject:      Diana DiPrima

 

Has anyone read anything by Diana Diprima?  What would you recommend? I've

only read excerpts of Dinners and Nightmares.

 

JoAnne Ruvoli

Loyola University-Chicago

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:50:37 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

 

          That's all I've ever seen by her, and I haunt bookstores

          quite a bit.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:56:44 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject:      Re[2]: OTR Roll Still on Display

 

          I heard it was a roll of shelf paper.  I've never seen it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:00:50 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lesley Reece <lreece01@SCCCED.SCCD.CTC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

 

          Lesley Reece

          1521 15th Ave #F

          Seattle, WA   98122

 

          Thank you very much.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:02:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Daniel Lundy <dlundy@PANIX.COM>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To:  <9506118054.AA805495874@SCCCSTU.sccced.ctc.edu>

 

Penguin is scheduled to reissue MEMOIRS OF A BEATNIK and also a volume of

poetry LOBA but not until August 1996.

 

Dan Lundy                                          DLUNDY@penguin.com

Academic Marketing & Sales                         tel: 212-366-2373

PENGUIN USA                                        fax: 212-366-2933

375 Hudson Street                          http://www.penguin.com/usa/

New York, NY 10014-3657                         " 60  PENGUIN YEARS  "

 

On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Lesley Reece wrote:

 

>           That's all I've ever seen by her, and I haunt bookstores

>           quite a bit.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:33:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         JoAnn Ruvoli <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.950711170040.9420A-100000@panix.com>

 

I know that Northwestern Univ. in Evanston has a significant amount of

DiPrima material in their special collections, but I haven't had time to

go over there to look at it.  I have a feeling it is primarily small

press editions of her poetry.  Is LOBA a compilation of her work or a

reprint?

 

On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Daniel Lundy wrote:

 

> Penguin is scheduled to reissue MEMOIRS OF A BEATNIK and also a volume of

> poetry LOBA but not until August 1996.

> 

> Dan Lundy                                          DLUNDY@penguin.com

> Academic Marketing & Sales                         tel: 212-366-2373

> PENGUIN USA                                        fax: 212-366-2933

> 375 Hudson Street                          http://www.penguin.com/usa/

> New York, NY 10014-3657                         " 60  PENGUIN YEARS  "

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:46:05 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:27:04 -0500 from

              <jruvoli@ORION.IT.LUC.EDU>

 

Di Prima is wonderful.  I recommend the Selected Poems for a start.  Also Memoi

rs of a Beatnik, a pornographic novel/memoir that includes an orgy with Jack Ke

rouac.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Jul 1995 11:15:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      otr

 

so i'm near the end...and it hits me...hard..dean is no longer just

ranting...there's substance...there's life and it is the road.  i get it

now...  how misled i was in the beginning...i thought, "how empty"  i see

now how wrong i was.  i'm gone now.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:01:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Norm Carlson <CARLSONN@WMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To:  "Your message dated Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:46:05 -0400 (EDT)"

              <BEAT-L%95071117515100@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

    Something slightly different that Diane di Prima did: in

    1960, she edited a collection entitled VARIOUS FABLES FROM

    VARIOUS PLACES, published as a Putnam Capricorn [paperbound]

    Original (for $1.15)....

 

    Norm Carlson

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:50:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Scott <kerouac@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Diana DiPrima

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.950711170040.9420A-100000@panix.com>

 

        I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've seen Memoirs of a Beatnik at

several bookstores.  Not sure who it's published by, though.  However,

no, I haven't seen much else on bookstore shelves by DiPrima.

 

Scott

 

 

Yeah.  Right.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 12 Jul 1995 21:39:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lisa Taylor <LisaTMP@AOL.COM>

Subject:      DALLAS EVENTS

 

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS:

AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

AN EXHIBIT OF THE COLOPHON MODERNS COLLECTION

FIRST EDITION BOOKS FROM 1950-1975

 OPENS SEPT. 20 AT SMU DEGOLYER LIBRARY

 

For press information:

Lisa Taylor, Taylor-Made Press

(214) 943-1099

Release date: July 14, 1995

 

DALLAS-TX--The Friends of the SMU Libraries will celebrate its 25th

anniversary with an exhibit of selected works from its Colophon Moderns

Collection Sept. 20-Nov. 17, 1995 at DeGolyer Library, 6404 Hilltop Lane, on

the Southern Methodist University campus.  The exhibit will be FREE and open

to the public Monday-Friday 8:30 a.m.-5 p.m. as well as during special

events.  Call (214) 768-3225 for more information.

 

The exhibit of over 60 works, curated by SMU alumna Mary Courtney,  includes

first editions by Edward Albee, James Baldwin, Saul Bellow, Richard

Brautigan, Charles Bukowski, William Burroughs, Robert Creeley, James Dickey,

Joan Didion, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Allen Ginsberg, Joseph Heller, Robert

Kelly, Jack Kerouac, Ken Kesey, Norman Mailer, Larry McMurtry, Flannery

O'Connor, Joyce Carol Oates, Gary Snyder, Kurt Vonnegut, Anne Waldman and

Thomas Wolfe.

 

Related events include an opening celebration with Decherd Turner speaking on

"My Literary Dilemma: Too Young To Be Lost, Too Old To Be Beat" on Sept. 20,

the screening of Beat generation films on Sept. 28 and Sept. 29, a benefit

dinner at Michele's on Oct. 2, the screening of Robert Frank films every

weekend in Oct., a panel discussion on Oct. 19 commemorating The Southwest

Review's 80th anniversary, a poetry and music concert on Nov. 8, a

presentation of awards for a student book collecting contest on Nov. 17, and

a reading series presented with the Writer's Garret on Oct. 5, 12,  and 26.

 

Highlighting the literary effort of postwar American authors who made

significant contributions to fiction and poetry, the Colophon Moderns

Collection was begun by the Friends of the SMU Libraries to identify and

collect "those books published in 1950 and thereafter which are judged to be

definitive in establishing the contours of the spirit-soul-mind of man."

Later, the emphasis was changed to "collect writers rather than individual

works, particularly in the fields of the novel and drama, poetry, essays and

criticism. " The writers were selected as those "who have most clearly

contributed to the profile of what man was doing during 1950/1975--his

agonies, goals, disappointments, protests, affirmations, etc." The Colophon

Moderns Collection has grown to include 133 authors, 1200 books, 140

broadsides, 58 periodicals, and 190 anthologies and is now a unique resource

for students and scholars.

 

The Friends of the SMU Libraries/Colophon was founded in 1970 to help the

nine University libraries maintain their excellence.  During its 25-year

history, the Friends have funded over $250,000 in grants to support library

materials, services and operations.

 

 

 

"VISIONARIES AND REBELS:

AMERICAN LITERATURE AFTER THE ATOM BOMB"

SCHEDULE OF FALL EVENTS

For press information:

Lisa Taylor, Taylor-Made Press

(214) 943-1099

Release date: July 14, 1995

 

OPENING NIGHT RECEPTION/TALK

Sept. 20 6:30 p.m. DeGolyer Library

6404 Hilltop Lane, SMU Campus. Free, donations accepted.

Opening celebration in honor of charter members and former presidents of the

Friends of SMU Libraries. Decherd Turner will speak on "My Literary Dilemma:

Too Young to be Lost, Too Old to be Beat"

 

FILMS

Southwest Film and Video Archives Sept. 28 7:30 p.m. Screening Room  Third

Floor

Greer Garson Theater Building  Meadows School of the Arts

SMU Campus. FREE, donations accepted

FILMS ABOUT THE BEAT

Jack Kerouac's Road : Through photographs, archival film footage, interviews

and skillful reconstructions of events, Jack Kerouac's Road  traces the life

of this gifted American writer--with special attention to his many

experiences travelling from one end of the US to the other by car--

experiences which he wrote down and turned into a romantic epic.  French with

English subtitles.

William S. Burroughs: Commissioner of the Sewers: A portrait of the author

who created Naked Lunch.  With his characteristically dry wit and subtle

humor, Burroughs talks about language and other weapons, about the work as a

virus, about death and dreams, about travel in time and space.

 

Sept. 29 7:30 p.m. Screening Room  Third Floor

Greer Garson Theater Building  Meadows School of the Arts

SMU campus. FREE, donations accepted

FILMS ABOUT THE BEAT

Kerouac: An award winning docu-drama about the King of the Beat Generation,

Jack Kerouac.

 

Oct. 6-7  8 p.m./ Oct. 8 3 p.m  The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

Pull My Daisy and Energy and How to Get It

 

Oct. 13-14 at 8 p.m., Oct. 15 at 3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

This Song for Jack and Hunter

 

OVER

PAGE TWO

 

Oct. 20-21  8 p.m., Oct. 22  3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

Conversations in Vermont and Life Dances On

 

Oct. 27-28  8 p.m., Oct. 29  3 p.m. The CineMac

McKinney Avenue Contemporary (The MAC), 3120 McKinney Ave.

$2 for DARE members, and Friends of SMU Libraries, $4 general.

FILMS BY ROBERT FRANK

C'est Vrai

 

MOMENTS WITH THE MODERNS: A READING SERIES

Presented in conjunction with The Writer's Garret for three Thursdays at 7:30

p.m. at DeGolyer Library, SMU Campus. FREE ADMISSION. Donations accepted.

 

Oct. 5 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: Joe Stanco interviews Jack

Kerouac (actor Mark Hankla).

 

Oct. 12 7:30 p.m. READING BETWEEN THE LINES: Glodean  Baker-Gardner

interviews James Baldwin (actor Fred Gardner).

 

Oct. 26 7:30 p.m. Reel/Real Writers: Allen Ginsberg on video, with Joe Stanco

live.  This is an encore performance from The MAC.

 

EAT TO THE BEAT-DINING

Michelle's Coffee Bar & Cafe, 6617 Snider Plaza, will present a benefit night

on Monday, Oct. 2 5-9:30 p.m. for the Friends of the SMU Libraries.  Proceeds

from all dinners that evening will benefit the Friends' organization.   Call

691-8164 for reservations.

 

 PANEL DISCUSSION

In celebration of The Southwest Review's 80th Anniversary

'A Literary Overview of the Post War Period"

Thursday, Oct. 19 at 7:30 p.m. FREE.

Hughes-Trigg Student Center Auditorium, SMU campus

The panel will be moderated by Willard Spiegelman, Prof. of  Literature at

SMU, with participation by  Steven Kellman, Ashbel Smith Professor of

Comparative Literature, UT San Antonio; Jack Myers, Professor of English,

SMU.  Additional panelists to be announced.

 

MUSIC

Meadows New Music Ensemble

Nov. 8  8 p.m.

O'Donnell Lecture Recital Hall SMU Meadows School of the Arts

FREE Improvisational performance of beat poetry and music.

 

SMU LITERARY FESTIVAL

1995 Student Book Collecting Contest

Awards presentation

Nov. 17  at Hughes Trigg Student Center

 

All full-time undergraduate and graduate SMU students are eligible to enter

this contest sponsored the Friends of the SMU Libraries.  Deadline for

entries is Nov. 1.  Display of the winning book collections and a reception

honoring the winners takes place at 6:30 p.m. in DeGolyer Library prior to

the presentation of the awards by the SMU Literary Festival guest author in

the Hughes Trigg Theater.  To commemorate the Friends' 25th anniversary, a

special prize will be given to the collection that best establishes the

original Colophon Collection theme.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jul 1995 01:25:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kerolist@AOL.COM

Subject:      No Subject

 

Please add me to the BEAT-L: Beat Generation List

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:27:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

 

In case anyone is working on an article on Kerouac in Florida, I pass on this n

ote from The Hemingway Newsletter:  "The Journal of Florida Literature invites

submissions of creative writing, articles, notes and reviews devoted to Florida

 writers and literature about Florida."  I guess Kerouac qualifies.  Contact R

odger L. Tarr, editor, English Dept., 4240 Illinois State Univ., Normal, IL

61790-4240.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:47:22 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject:      Gary Snyder On TV

 

I've read several posts referring to Gary Snyder and wanted

to let everyone know that, according to my local listings,

he is scheduled to be on a show on PBS called, "The Language

Of Life With Bill Moyers" at 9:00 p.m. tonight (July 14th).

 

According to the listings, "Gary Snyder uses words to defend

the natural world; Daisy Zamora writes about the pain of war."

The show is one hour long.

 

Ron Morrow

Toronto, Canada

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jul 1995 13:30:46 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      broken bones

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95071415581288@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

There's a song that Al Ginsberg sings in the recent documentary about him

that goes..."broken bones, broken bones...etc."

Does anyone know if a recording of this is available?

It doesn't seem to be on the box set, but maybe it is?

A posting of available recordings would be great.

 

tanks,

 

joe

 

jreifer@wahoo.sjsu.edu

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/ArtH/Tibet/main.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jul 1995 14:39:00 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bruce Greeley <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject:      Re: broken bones

 

I haven't heard Ginsberg's boxed set but believe it has different

material than one earlier record he put out with a bunch of 'downtown,

skronking jazzbos and avant-rockers' -- where the recording you're

talking about may have come from -- unfortunately, I don't remember the

title to this ("The Lion is Roaring" maybe?) which is at home.

Other recordings which Ginsberg has been on:

* song with "The Clash" (?title?)

* album where he sings Blake poems accompanying himself on harmonium,

plus guest artists like Don Cherry, Elvin Jones, Peter Orlovsky

 

if this doesn't prompt others to remember better than me, I'll look in

my music collection this weekend(!)

 

- Greeley not Creeley

----------

From: Joe Reifer  <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L  <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: broken bones

Date: Friday, July 14, 1995 1:30PM

 

There's a song that Al Ginsberg sings in the recent documentary about him

that goes..."broken bones, broken bones...etc."

Does anyone know if a recording of this is available?

It doesn't seem to be on the box set, but maybe it is?

A posting of available recordings would be great.

 

tanks,

 

joe

 

jreifer@wahoo.sjsu.edu

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/ArtH/Tibet/main.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jul 1995 16:25:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Shana Skaletsky <isis@MARS.MCS.COM>

Subject:      Re: broken bones

In-Reply-To:  <9507161213.AA22666@netmail2.microsoft.com>

 

On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Bruce Greeley wrote:

 

> I haven't heard Ginsberg's boxed set but believe it has different

> material than one earlier record he put out with a bunch of 'downtown,

> skronking jazzbos and avant-rockers' -- where the recording you're

> talking about may have come from -- unfortunately, I don't remember the

> title to this ("The Lion is Roaring" maybe?) which is at home.

> Other recordings which Ginsberg has been on:

> * song with "The Clash" (?title?)

> 

> if this doesn't prompt others to remember better than me, I'll look in

> my music collection this weekend(!)

> 

> - Greeley not Creeley

> ----------

 

I believe that the song Allen Ginsberg recorded with The Clash is called

"Ghetto Defendant", and can be found on The Clash album "Combat Rock",

recorded @1980. While we're on the topic, I was wondering if anyone knew

anything about a rumour I heard-it involved Allen and the rock band U2

recording something together. can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

 

-Shana

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jul 1995 17:46:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Matthew C. Curcio" <curcio@BIOC02.UTHSCSA.EDU>

Subject:      LynxOfTheWeek71495

 

Hey Guys abd Girls,

 

Thought some of you would like to cruise the web sites of distinction and

this might be one you will like.

 

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/People/JackKerouac.html

 

Have Fun

Matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:15:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM

Subject:      YOU'RE FIRED!

 

Soft-pedal it all you want by calling it a "reduction in force",

"downsizing", whatever.   The fact is, you have heard these words, or will at

some point in the near future unless you take Ownership of your talents and

skills.

 

The workplace is changing faster than ever before in the history of mankind.

 In order to fit in, you, I and everyone who works needs to become an expert

is what we do and find a way to partner with a company so we can both

succeed.

 

I've been in your shoes and have Coached a lot of people through the process

of identifying where they fit into the future workplace.  Last fall, I put my

thoughts into a book entitled, The Unchained Worker.

 

Here is an overview of The Unchained Worker - Principles of Ownership in the

Workplace, and what people are saying about it.

 

Ownership inspires and motivates us to take action, to protect and improve

what's ours.  We own our talents, experience and capabilities.  When we put

them in partnership with a company, the future is ours to make........

 

What is Ownership?  It's a new perspective for all of us to use when dealing

with our jobs.  Ownership is a mind-set, an attitude that forces you to look

no further than yourself to secure your future in the workplace.  It's the

catalyst for superior individual performance within companies.  It provides a

common vocabulary for workers to excel as individuals.  Ownership motivates

people to develop their talents and bolster individual performance.  It puts

success in their hands..........

 

Table of Contents.

1.  Take control of your future with Ownership

2.  Ownership is a vocabulary for success.

3.  Ownership is a problem solving tool.

4.  Ownership exercises your brain.

5.  Adjust your attitude for better performance.

6.  Ownership starts with common sense.

7.  Ownership is the workplace of the future.

8.  Get work done more efficiently with Ownership

9.  How Mis-applied responsibility holds you back.

10. Ownership in Action.

11. The principles that will guide your success.

12. Ownership is an Adventure

13. Ownership unleashes your performance.

 

The intended audience is everyone who works.  There are 142 pages with plenty

of graphics and illustrations.  It's about a 2 hour read total.

 

Here's what people are saying about The Unchained Worker:  I've always

believed in the individual's desire to succeed.  Creating the right

environment is the key.  Ownership will work in any organization, Great stuff

- Dennis Erickson, Head Coach Seattle Seahawks.  Inspirational! Fantastic!

What a wonderful book.  It made me think about things I've never considered.

Thanks. - Staci Clevenger, Assembly line worker.

 

I want to wish you the very best of luck in your careers.

Jeffrey C. Petkevicius

 

Cybernetix Inc.

14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

Mead, WA 99021

(800) 517-4268

FAX: (509) 467-9573

Ownership@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:13:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <950717181549_116873402@aol.com> from "OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM" at Jul

              17, 95 06:15:52 pm

 

> Cybernetix Inc.

> 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> Mead, WA 99021

> (800) 517-4268

> FAX: (509) 467-9573

> Ownership@aol.com

 

 

I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind.  LET'S

GET HIM!!!  A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

 

Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

problems?  Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

 

Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

lame.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

                Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

 

  Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

                 (the beat literature web site)

 

    Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

                  (my fantasy folk-rock album)

 

                    * * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

         "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

          timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

          my narrow axe, not having many communicable

          or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:29:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <950717181549_116873402@aol.com>

 

Uh, I thought this was supposed to be stuff about beat authors - not

about the politics of having a job in the world today (although a

correlation would have been nice and made that post - not reposted here

for sake of space - relevant).

 

joe

 

things are symbols of themselves - a. ginsberg

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:24:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "KEVIN M. KELLY" <kkelly3@OSF1.GMU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <199507180013.RAA20482@netcom21.netcom.com>

 

I feel compelled to point out that this same individual _flooded_ another

listserv I subscribe to with similar self-promotions of this same

book--complete with quotes from "reviews."  I should also point out that

this was at least a human resources list where such a listing might be

appropriate (still shameless self-promotion) and he was quickly hounded

off the list.  He even posted a public apology before disappearing - what

a guy!

 

For this post to appear here suggests he is targeting random irrelevant

lists for maximum exposure.  He probably knows his message won't last

long.  I think this clown richly deserves any appropriate response his ad

might bring his way.  Since he gave us his 800 # I have to assume he wants

to hear from us.

 

 

On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Levi Asher wrote:

 

> > Cybernetix Inc.

> > 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> > Mead, WA 99021

> > (800) 517-4268

> > FAX: (509) 467-9573

> > Ownership@aol.com

> 

> 

> I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

> dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind.  LET'S

> GET HIM!!!  A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

> 

> Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

> problems?  Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

> 

> Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

> lame.

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

>                 Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> 

>   Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

>                  (the beat literature web site)

> 

>     Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

>                   (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> 

>                     * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> 150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

>          "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

>           timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

>           my narrow axe, not having many communicable

>           or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

> 

 

______________

Regards,

Kevin M. Kelly

 

Office of Human Resources            Voice: 703.993.2600

George Mason University              Fax:   703.993.2601

Fairfax, VA 22030-4444               kkelly3@osf1.gmu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:34:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Kevin P. Freeman" <kpfst2@POP.PITT.EDU>

Subject:      On the Road

 

Does anyone have an update on the possibility of a feature film of On the Road?

------

kpfst2@pop.pitt.edu

http://www.pitt.edu/~kpfst2

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 17 Jul 1995 21:53:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  <199507180134.VAA26732@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu>

 

Francis Ford Copolla was apparently working on this project - there were

casting difficulties amongst other things and the project has been

delayed. Hold on to yr hats, kids, because one article I read said they

were considering Jim "the mask" carrey for the part of burroughs. Other

names mentioned included yr typical hollywood gen-x stars. Scary stuff!

 

There are 2 documentaries on Kerouac (at least two) - one has cheesy

reenactments of the beat era, the other doesn't. Guess which one I like

better. Ha ha ha.

 

Furthur, there is that really great Ginsberg documentary from 93 and

something called "the burroughs movie" (?) - a real good documentary and

someone stole my copy and if anyone knows where to get one (preferably

for cheap, dad...) i would be forever indebted, and that's a long time.

 

 

 

Here's the question that spawned this post:

> Does anyone have an update on the possibility of a feature film of On

 the Road?

 

 

and don't you know that god is pooh-bear? - j. kerouac

 

joe

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:07:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

 

Speaking of goof-ball Hollywood money grabber headlines, I wouldn't be

surprised if Johnny Depp were in the On the Road movie.  After all with,

Francis Ford Copolla directing and the two of them being pals after Copolla

produced the Don Juan DiMarco film.  Also Depp is a well-known beat fan.  He

paid some $5000 at an auction for an old overcoat belonging to Kerouac and

lists it as his most prized possesion.  He also interviewed Ginberg for an

issue of Interview.

 

What about the cast from Naked Lunch?  Ive heard from several people that the

actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did an

excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:26:14 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject:      Ownership

 

What the guy did was definitely not right. Let's flood his 800 number

with crank calls. Write it on every lavatory door, if necessary. But let's

not tie up this list with more comments about it. We deliberately don't

screen postings, to allow the fullest interchange of ideas, and as a

consequence this kind of thing can happen. 'nuff said.

 

Fred Bogin

Beat-L co-owner

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:22:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <950717181549_116873402@aol.com> from "OWNERSHIP@AOL.COM" at Jul

              17, 95 06:15:52 pm

 

> 1.  Take control of your future with Ownership

let go of trying to control, man...

 

> 2.  Ownership is a vocabulary for success.

if domination is your idea of being successful as a human being.

 

> 3.  Ownership is a problem solving tool.

things always have a way of working out if you let it be

 

> 4.  Ownership exercises your brain.

independent thought is the only exercise i practice...trying to control

what other people think is an exercise in futility...self-help books are

only good for the person who wrote it.

 

> 5.  Adjust your attitude for better performance.

in other words, be what other people want you to be.

 

> 6.  Ownership starts with common sense.

 

What is it with this ownership, possession jazz..  this control freak is

really annoying...  sometimes literacy is wasted on the mindless.

 

forget this...i'm gone.

 

"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides

the forlorn rags of growing old..."  Sal Paradise

 

peace.

pooh

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 08:46:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Elsie Pettit <pettit@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <199507180013.RAA20482@netcom21.netcom.com>

 

On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Levi Asher wrote:

 

> > Cybernetix Inc.

> > 14817 N. Jennifer Ct.

> > Mead, WA 99021

> > (800) 517-4268

> > FAX: (509) 467-9573

> > Ownership@aol.com

> 

> 

> I believe it's proper internet etiquette to harass this sorry-ass

> dude by phone, e-mail, and any other methods that come to mind.  LET'S

> GET HIM!!!  A 1-800-number ... Wow ...

> 

  Ditto!  I just decided to ignore this bit of crass commercialism.

 

Beat-L, indeed!

 

 

> Anyway, why does he think people who read Beat literature have employment

> problems?  Maybe he thinks we're a bunch of bongo-playing beatniks here.

> 

  Ha!  My thoughts *exactly* when I read it.

 

(Have you called him yet, Levi?)

 

 

Elsie Pettit

 

 

 

> Also, besides the fact that this is a spam ... his book sounds extremely

> lame.

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

>                 Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> 

>   Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

>                  (the beat literature web site)

> 

>     Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

>                   (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> 

>                     * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> 150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

>          "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

>           timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

>           my narrow axe, not having many communicable

>           or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:24:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  <950718020710_117207075@aol.com>

 

> What about the cast from Naked Lunch?  Ive heard from several people that the

> actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did an

> excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

 

I thought the portrayals of Jack and Al in "Naked Lunch" were horribly

goofy - not goofy in a sublime beat way - just plain offensive.

Shoulda left it out - at least they didn't try to portray Gysin - sheesh.

 

joe

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:46:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

 

I think Jim Carrey would be a good Bull Lee.  That is the only potential

casting that I have heard that sounds decent.

 

Who could play Joan Burroughs character?

 

She was always raking the lizards off the tree.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:44:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  <199507181646.JAA26430@hsc.usc.edu>

 

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> I think Jim Carrey would be a good Bull Lee.  That is the only potential

> casting that I have heard that sounds decent.

> 

> Who could play Joan Burroughs character?

> 

> She was always raking the lizards off the tree.

> 

I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

 

So it has to be Nicole Kidman then, repeating her triumphant performance in

Batman Forever - shades of Dr Sax (now that would be a movie - who would

play Dr Sax himself??)

 

Nick W-W

 

>> 

>I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

>front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

> 

>Michael Bertsch

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 21:34:28 +0300

Reply-To:     jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.950718104321.4065C-100000@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu> (message from Michael Bertsch on Tue,

              18 Jul 1995 10:44:23 -0700)

 

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

> On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

>> Who could play Joan Burroughs' character?

 

> I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

> front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

 

joan burroughs was not ditzy.

 

do you know anything at all about the burroughses?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:40:35 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500 from <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

 

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:10:27 -0500 Nick Weir-Williams said:

>So it has to be Nicole Kidman then, repeating her triumphant performance in

>Batman Forever - shades of Dr Sax (now that would be a movie - who would

>play Dr Sax himself??)

> 

>Nick W-W

> 

>>> 

>>I'd say they should get a real ditzy actress, one numb enough to stand in

>>front of a toasted pistol-toting Bill.

>> 

>>Michael Bertsch

>> 

>> 

I'd like to see Jack Nicolson play Sax.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:02:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <199507181322.JAA09505@imageek.york.cuny.edu> from "Kristen

              VanRiper" at Jul 18, 95 09:22:28 am

 

> 

> forget this...i'm gone.

> 

 

Me too!  Cool response.

 

> peace.

> pooh

 

Hey wait a minute -- I thought God was pooh bear.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

                Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

 

  Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

                 (the beat literature web site)

 

    Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

                  (my fantasy folk-rock album)

 

                    * * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

         "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

          timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

          my narrow axe, not having many communicable

          or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:11:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  Your message <950718020710_117207075@aol.com> of Tue, 18 Jul 1995

              02:07:10 -0400

 

On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 02:07:10 -0400,  Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

wrote;

 

*Speaking of goof-ball Hollywood money grabber headlines, I wouldn't be

*surprised if Johnny Depp were in the On the Road movie.  After all

with,

*Francis Ford Copolla directing and the two of them being pals after

Copolla

*produced the Don Juan DiMarco film.  Also Depp is a well-known beat

fan.  He

*paid some $5000 at an auction for an old overcoat belonging to Kerouac

and

*lists it as his most prized possesion.  He also interviewed Ginberg for

an

*issue of Interview.

 

*What about the cast from Naked Lunch?  Ive heard from several people

that the

*actors playing walk-on roles supposed to be Ginsberg and Kerouac did

an

*excellent job and that they would like to see them play the parts.

 

But they seemed really old to be playing Ginsberg and Kerouac.

Kerouac's character was supposed to young, and the guy playing him in NL

had wrinkles galore.

 

Kate

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 18 Jul 1995 17:46:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95071815422886@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

Nicholson *would* make a great Sax!  Thanks, Bill Gargan!

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:15:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <199507182002.NAA18394@netcom.netcom.com> from "Levi Asher" at

              Jul 18, 95 01:02:07 pm

 

> Hey wait a minute -- I thought God was pooh bear.

 

levi, i was floored when i read that....neal cassidy and i were riding on

the same plane at that moment... i was truly moved by the last quarter of

_on the road_, it was the kerouac that has moved me before. all this talk

on the list about a movie doesn't do it for me.  haven't gotten to the

bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_  someone in

this list said jack and neal were portrayed as goofy in _the naked

lunch_...haven't seen it, but it's the reason i'm not into movies...some

overpaid actor with no connection whatsoever will probably ruin it for

me.

 

take it easy.

pooh

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:09 CST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         EVANSBRI@ESUVM.BITNET

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:15:22 -0500 from

              <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

 

I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The Road

 or any of Kerouac's books.  Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

 end up being disappointed.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:37:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      dharma bum biblio

In-Reply-To:  <199507191815.OAA02103@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

>... bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_  someone in

 

 

yes! do that!

 

for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

 

A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

 

Two other excellent books are:

 

The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

 

Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill,  1993.

 

 

It is quite interesting to note Kerouac's return from the Buddha lands to

his Catholic heritage in his later works - most notably revelations on

his travels to find his French-Canadian ancestors.

 

 

joe

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

>>... bookstore yet, but i thought i'd pick up _the dharma bums_  someone in

 

 

>>yes! do that!

 

>>for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

>>picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

>>library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

 

>>A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

 

>>Two other excellent books are:

 

>>The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

>>Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

 

>>Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill,  1993.

 

 

>>It is quite interesting to note Kerouac's return from the Buddha lands to

>>his Catholic heritage in his later works - most notably revelations on

>>his travels to find his French-Canadian ancestors.

 

 

>>joe

 

A while ago I posted a note about how Tom Clark's biography related that Kerouac

 complained that the editor removed all the catholic parts from the Dharma Bums.

  So maybe he never really left Catholic land for Buddha lands.  I think the

 Catholicism was always there.  Books like Visions of Gerard, Tristessa and

 Mexico city Blues I think are good unedited examples of his  use of Catholicism

 and Buddhism together.  Remember how often he uses the term the Lamb or Lamby

 Jesus.  And he mentions saints a lot.

 

Other Zen books to look at would be Zen Flesh, Zen Bones.  This I would

 reccommend over any others.  Others are anything by DT Suzuki (whom was visited

 by kerouac and others in the fifties) and Philip Kapleau.

 

And his biographers recount how Kerouac read and studied the Bible throughout

 his life.  So read that too.

 

The Zen books I mentioned are just that, Zen.  Kerouac wasn't Zen buddhist as

 was Snyder.  I don't know much about it, but I think he studied Chinese

 buddhism more.  Maybe someone can talk about that who knows more.

 

Nowadays it seems people in the US are interestd in tibetan Buddhsim.

 

And so, when is Kerouac's Life of Buddha coming out.  (This was anthologized in

 Tricycle).  Supposed to be out this year.

 

Tim

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:39:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Terence Ritchie <tritchie@SOS.WINGHAM.COM>

Subject:      Garver?

 

William Garver, a.k.a. Bull Gaines, Gains, Gahr-va, and affectionately

known to his friends as "Old Honeyboy Bill" (Desolation Angels).

I 1st heard his voice in Mexico City Blues & again in Desolation Angels

and he is without doubt one of the more vivid characters I've come

across in a literary while. Any more connections & info about this

gentleman would be appreciated greatly or is nothing much more known?

 

 As far as movies & Kerouac, "Joan Rawshanks in the Fog" (Vision of

Cody), one of Jack's more expansive rifts, springs to the mind and if

one of his old coats goes for 5 gees then what's a 1st ed. (signed

even) for The Road go for these days? Must be millions, no?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:52:32 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT from

              <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

 

On Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:28:28 PDT Timothy K. Gallaher said:

>>>for fans of dharma bums that would like to explore a little dharma - jack

>>>picked up one of his first big books on buddhism at the san jose public

>>>library - mere blocks away from my lil hut:

> 

>>>A Buddhist Bible - edited by Dwight Goddard. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.

> 

>>>Two other excellent books are:

> 

>>>The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - translated by John Blofeld - Boston:

>>>Shambala (Pocket Edition $6), 1994.

> 

>>>Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - by Shunryu Suzuki. New York: Weatherhill,  1993.

> 

>Other Zen books to look at would be Zen Flesh, Zen Bones.  This I would

> reccommend over any others.  Others are anything by DT Suzuki (whom was

>visited

> by kerouac and others in the fifties) and Philip Kapleau.

 

I would recommend two books: The Empty Mirror and A Glimpse Of Nothingness,

both by Janwillem Van DeWetering.  He left his native Holland dissatisfied with

capitalism and the middle class life to enter a Japanese Zen monastery knowing

no Japanese and with only the clothes on his back, which he describes in the

first book.  He later spent several years in an American Zen monastery in

Washington state, which he describes in the second book.  Both provide real-

istic and readable accounts of zen life and touch on the "zen lunatic" concept

that so fascinated Kerouac (the Japanese monk in charge of the American mon-

astery likes to get drunk on whiskey and watch cowboy movies).

                                                                Win

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:27:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <CMM.0.90.2.806192908.gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>

 

Rep's book is interesting, as is DT Suzuki from a historical context -

unfortuneately these works don't have anything to do with zen practice -

merely philosophy (mostly Rinzai). Kapleau on the other hand incorporates

theory and practice - _the three pillars of zen_ especially.

 

the aforementioned Godard collection was studied inside and out by

Kerouac who, according to Ginsberg, was really turned on and influenced

by this large work containing japanese zen, chinese (ch'an), tibetan, and

other works.

 

yes tim - i do think that there were brilliant synchronizations of

catholicism and buddhism in kerouac's work, and the more I study

Buddhism, the more I see it everywhere in his books (as I'm sure you see

the biblical side). 8)

 

joe

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 19:29:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95071920073292@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

Welp, i guess i started a "recommend your favorite zen book" string of

posts - sheesh. sorry about that.

 

joe

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:05:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.91.950719192859.15225B-100000@wahoo.sjsu.edu>

 

Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

hamburgers.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:22:09 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU> Wrote:

|

|

| Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

| hamburgers.

 

I think I hear the sound of one hand clapping.

 

-josephine-

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:15:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

>Rep's book is interesting, as is DT Suzuki from a historical context -

>unfortuneately these works don't have anything to do with zen practice -

>merely philosophy (mostly Rinzai). Kapleau on the other hand incorporates

>theory and practice - _the three pillars of zen_ especially.

> 

>the aforementioned Godard collection was studied inside and out by

>Kerouac who, according to Ginsberg, was really turned on and influenced

>by this large work containing japanese zen, chinese (ch'an), tibetan, and

>other works.

> 

>yes tim - i do think that there were brilliant synchronizations of

>catholicism and buddhism in kerouac's work, and the more I study

>Buddhism, the more I see it everywhere in his books (as I'm sure you see

>the biblical side). 8)

> 

>joe

 

 

I think his catholicism gets short shrifted or downplayed or is considered

a negative influence by many.  I don't think Kerouac would appreciate or

agree with these observations though.  BTW I'm not Catholic.  A few years

ago my friend was looking for a present for his sister for her birthday.

His family is catholic and his sister is pretty religious, Catholic

intellectual.  She worked with the Mother Teresa organization for a year,

taught at catholic schools (maybe still does).  I reccommended that he give

her Visions of Gerard with some trepidation.  But later I found out she

thought it was the best book she'd ever read.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:17:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

>Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

>hamburgers.

> 

>Michael Bertsch

 

 

Best hamburg in LA is In and Out.  Burger King is the best of the fast

fooders.  I never had a Whitecastle hamburger.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 01:07:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garver?

 

>one of his old coats goes for 5 gees then what's a 1st ed. (signed

>even) for The Road go for these days? Must be millions, no?

 

Actually you get a 1st of On the Road for about $800.  A good place for this

and many other beat rarities is the Beat Book Shop in Boulder, CO.  They also

have signed editions of every Bukowski.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:53:59 +0300

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         T P Uschanov <uschanov@CC.JOENSUU.FI>

Subject:      On the Road movie

In-Reply-To:  <01HT31W7GLXE000B3J@FIPORT.BITNET>

 

EVANSBRI@ESUVM.BITNET wrote:

 

>I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The Road

>or any of Kerouac's books.  Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

>end up being disappointed.

 

I think the late Richard Brooks could have done a quite pleasant job on

On the Road. What do others here think?

 

T P Uschanov

uschanov@cc.joensuu.fi

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:55:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95071916325760@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from

              "EVANSBRI%ESUVM.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU" at Jul 19, 95 03:28:09 pm

 

> I can't imagine any filmmaker or actors being able to do justice to On The

 Road

>  or any of Kerouac's books.  Im not sure ifI'd even want to see the movie-only

>  end up being disappointed.

 

 

yeah, i agree.  the way i see it, if you want to know it, you've got to

experience it for yourself.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:03:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.950719200400.26131A-100000@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> from "Michael Bertsch" at Jul 19,

              95 08:05:10 pm

 

> Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

> hamburgers.

> Michael Bertsch

 

you know, i've picked up a few zen related books, and i've always found

that a "zen teacher" is an oxymoron..i mean, enlightenment cannot be

taught..it's is up to the individual...isn't there a story about a

student who surpasses his teacher by realizing this? (sort of remember

this in zen flesh zen bones, but it's been a while)

 

not that it matters.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:29:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

i think it might be too easy to divide kerouac's religious interests

along the lines of buddhism on one side and catholicism on the other side.

in their purest forms, both philosophies or 'roadmaps to life,' are

after the same thing.  (let's just leave organized religion outside

this entire discussion)  but both catholicism (and i was raised catholic,

so i know of which i speak <g>) and buddhism (and i, too, now study

buddhism) are expedients means to realize the inherent god (buddha/

bodhisattva) nature in man.  the bible may employ different terms,

but the life of jesus is the life of a bodhisattva.

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:38:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Joe Reifer <jreifer@WAHOO.SJSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.HPP.3.91.950719200400.26131A-100000@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu>

 

> Reading a book to learn Zen is like swatting a fly to learn how to cook

> hamburgers.

> Michael Bertsch

 

 

ahhh...but you should probably put the fly outside instead of swatting

it...and then have a soyburger...(and then read a book on zen for food

for yr brain....and then go sit....).

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:38:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Re Dharma Bums Biblio

 

>i think it might be too easy to divide kerouac's religious interests

>along the lines of buddhism on one side and catholicism on the other side.

>in their purest forms, both philosophies or 'roadmaps to life,' are

>after the same thing.  (let's just leave organized religion outside

>this entire discussion)  but both catholicism (and i was raised catholic,

>so i know of which i speak <g>) and buddhism (and i, too, now study

>buddhism) are expedients means to realize the inherent god (buddha/

>bodhisattva) nature in man.  the bible may employ different terms,

>but the life of jesus is the life of a bodhisattva.

>claudia

 

 

I think this is well put.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:37:17 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject:      beats and the femmes

 

Hi everyone,

 

I've just joined the list and it's been an amazing education so far.  At the

end of June Kristen asked about how other women feel about Kerouac - here's my

thoughts...

 

I think Carolyn Cassady's book, Off the Road, really sums it up for me: she

was a woman with a family to support and this meant

 

(a) she couldn't go out and be one of those wild and/or free-spirited women

that the lads encountered on the road, she had to stay at home and raise the

kids; and

 

(b) she was married to a reckless and exciting man who did all his reckless

and exciting things away from her and was totally unequipped to provide for a

family in any way.  He also often expected her to shoulder the consequences of

his action.

 

I think so many beat writers were caught between wanting the love and

companionship of a wife and a family and the need to be constantly running

away from it into something new.  I don't think it was mysoginistic in any

way.  I think a new way of life was opening up to them but they were still

very much in the shackles of the old way (ie, perceptions of the woman's

role).  They may have had plenty of sex and plenty of girlfriends but

unltimately the beat generation was a boy's own adventure because they still

hadn't figured out how to include women.

 

In my arrogant opinion...

 

-josephine-

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:42:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Penguin Electronic <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

Subject:      Quote from on the Road

 

I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

 where the quote (I approximate):

"The only ones for me are the mad ones"

comes from.

 

And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

 

A page numer or any indication of where to find it in the novel would be greatly

 appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

Julie Hansen

http://www.penguin.com/usa/

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:05:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beats and the femmes

In-Reply-To:  <199507210235.MAA02398@netmanager.dotc.gov.au> from "Josephine

              Thomson" at Jul 21, 95 12:37:17 pm

 

josephine

 

> I think so many beat writers were caught between wanting the love and

> companionship of a wife and a family and the need to be constantly running

> away from it into something new.  I don't think it was mysoginistic in any

> way.  I think a new way of life was opening up to them but they were still

> very much in the shackles of the old way (ie, perceptions of the woman's

> role).  They may have had plenty of sex and plenty of girlfriends but

> unltimately the beat generation was a boy's own adventure because they still

> hadn't figured out how to include women.

 

i guess i'm not a very good feminist, but i have to say, why should

"boys" have to figure out a way to include women?  why couldn't women

find their own way?  i was somewhat sad when i read about terry...not

because her husband beat her and she had a child to support, but because

she ran to another man to be something...  she left her child with her

family (a courageous move on her part) and she left her husband (even

more so), but she didn't have the courage to go out and find herself without

jack to lead the way.   maybe this is elitist of me since i've taken

responsibility for my own body and decided to not have children, (there are

enough children that need love, and need a responsible person to help them

survive, why have more) but i don't define myself by the men in my life or the

children that i bear.

 

i haven't brought up kerouac's women since i finished otr because in my

opinion, kerouac wasn't writing about the women or the sex or the

indulgences...  these are all superficial aspects of what the road means

to me now.

 

 

kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 06:31:14 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To:  <s00f6690.037@penguin.com> from "Penguin Electronic" at Jul 21,

              95 08:42:40 am

 

> 

> I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

>  where the quote (I approximate):

> "The only ones for me are the mad ones"

> comes from.

 

It's in the first couple of chapters (I don't have the book here at work, but

you don't have to go far to find it, first 20 pages or so I'd guess).

 

> And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

 

Yes, and particularly PLAYED OUT!  If somebody were presenting a project on

Shakespeare and said "To be or not to be, that is the question" -- I would

not be too impressed.  Likewise here.  Dig deeper please ...

 

(insert smileys as needed)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

                Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

 

  Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

                 (the beat literature web site)

 

    Queensboro Ballads: http://levity.willow.com/brooklyn/

                  (my fantasy folk-rock album)

 

                    * * * * * * * * * * * * *

150 years ago this month, Thoreau built a house near Walden Pond:

         "So I went on for some days cutting and hewing

          timber, and also studs and rafters, all with

          my narrow axe, not having many communicable

          or scholar-like thoughts, singing to myself -- "

-----------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:53:36 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Quote from on the Road

 

It's in part one, chapter one, like within the first 5 pages of the book...

(and they're the only ones for me too!)

 

I'd say it IS one of the defining points not only of the book but of

the movement(!)

(one of the few quotes of his in Microsoft's own cd-rom BOOkshelf, by the way!)

 

- Bruce Greeley

<v-bgree@microsoft.com>

----------

From: Penguin Electronic  <ELECTRONIC@PENGUIN.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L  <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Quote from on the Road

Date: Friday, July 21, 1995 8:42AM

 

I'd be grateful for anyone who could steer me toward the place in On The Road

 where the quote (I approximate):

"The only ones for me are the mad ones"

comes from.

 

And would you agree that this is a particularly resonant quote from OTR?

 

A page numer or any indication of where to find it in the novel would

be greatly

 appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

Julie Hansen

http://www.penguin.com/usa/

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:26:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To:  <s00f6690.037@penguin.com>

 

Goodness, Julie.  I'd suggest reading OTR again to find that quote--but

then I'm an English teacher, and you'd suspect such a suggestion from one

so warped.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:23:33 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Quote from on the Road

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:26:18 -0700 from

              <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

 

otr quote--it's on page nine, about a third of the way down in the 25th anni-

versary edition paperback (1980).  Just sort of jumped out at me b/c in this

dogeared community college library copy it's highlighted with a big "wow" in

the margin. Who said this generation of college youth had no souls?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:55:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: beats and the femmes

 

josephine,

    just in case you weren't aware of it, there is a book called minor

charactors, by joyce johnson, that deals with the women involved in the

*movement*. i guess she was a friend of kerouac's in the late fifties.

thats really all i can say since i haven't read it yet. if i get around

to it anytime soon i'll tell you more. or if any of you have read it,

you can.

 

namaste,

 

beatnik7

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:06:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Quote from on the Road

 

The quote is toward the beginning, perhaps 1/4 from the start or before.

 With a little browsing you should find it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:34:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Mary Maguire 362 7134 <mmaguire@OSM.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject:      Cassady Video (kinda long)

 

I posted a message here a few weeks ago asking if anyone had watched the

Neal Cassady/Merry Pranksters videos put out by Key-Z productions, and

whether or not they're worth buying (for $70). Unfortunately, noone

replied. :(

 

Last Friday, I was able to rent one of these (for the Torontonians out

there, it was at Suspect Video on Markham St.). It's entitled _Neal

Cassady_ and claims to be a "series of raps" by Neal. It consists of

silent footage of Neal, including scenes of him driving "Further" (the

bus), with voiceovers of his monologues.

 

The first scenes, in which Neal is dancing around a room, appear to be the

same as the "Neal in the Backhouse" pictures found on the bottom,

righthand corner of every page in Ken Kesey's _A Further Inquiry_. (You

can thumb the pages and make it look as though Neal is actually moving.)

 

Anyway, some of the movie monologues may be the same as those transcribed

in _A Further Inquiry_. I can't say for sure 'cause I couldn't follow a

damn thing on this tape. I had to turn it off halfway through. Does that

mean I lose my membership in the Beat fanclub? I've felt both fascination

and repulsion toward Neal Cassady since first encountering him in OTR and

especially after reading Carolyn Cassady's _Off the Road_, but I was

really disturbed by this video. Despite having read countless descriptions

of Neal's manic behaviour, I was unprepared for actually seeing and

hearing it -- he just NEVER stops moving. To be honest, it terrified me.

Perhaps the disembodied voice made it worse. It sounded old, and reminded

me of the crazy people who have that vacant look and just keep on talking

as you search their eyes, trying to connect.  Maybe it was because Neal's

was the ONLY voice. If there had been others, I could have witnessed a

connection.

 

I'm glancing through the Further Inquiry transcripts as I write this, and

on paper, he's the same Neal I'd always imagined and wanted him to be.

Sorry to burden you with my inward struggle, but this is Dean Moriarty --

and I DIDN'T LIKE HIM. On a philosophical level, I understand the appeal

of the "mad ones", but I wondered how the same Jack who spent weeks in

solitude on hillsides could spend weeks in a car with the guy on this

tape.

 

Can somebody help me with this? Can somebody redefine the legend for me?

_____________________________________________________________________

 

Mary Maguire

mmaguire@osm.utoronto.ca                              Toronto, Canada

 

"... a hum came suddenly into his head, which seemed to him

a Good Hum, such as is Hummed Hopefully to Others."

_____________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:56:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cassady Video (kinda long)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9507211940.C22349-0100000@oracle.osm.utoronto.ca>

 

Gosh, Neal Cassady was the fastestmanalive!  Of course he never stops moving.

 

Michael Bertsch

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:21:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cassady Video (kinda long)

 

Mary wrote:

>Despite having read countless descriptions

>of Neal's manic behaviour, I was unprepared for actually seeing and

>hearing it -- he just NEVER stops moving. To be honest, it terrified me.

>Perhaps the disembodied voice made it worse. It sounded old, and reminded

>me of the crazy people who have that vacant look and just keep on talking

>as you search their eyes, trying to connect.

 

This is because this is what he became.  Constantly using methamphetamine

and ritalin along with LSD most likely helped this happen.  The fellow

Kerouac hung around with was greatly changed by then, just as the drunken

older Kerouac was a reflection of his younger self.  The Cassady you saw

here was just a few short years from pre-mature death.

 

I think i saw these videos you saw around 13 years ago in Berkeley.  Then

they were films and some guy from Oregon (Ken Babs ???) brought them down

and showed them. Charged a few dollars.  They weren't very good but were

still fun to see.

 

I think along with the drug,s the dehumanization of him by the hippies,

making him "The Fastest Man Alive" and, as he put it, "Keroassidy" helped

to put him into this detatched state.  But mainly it was the drug use that

escalated in the early sixties that he took part in.

 

Also, and maybe most importantly, read The First Third, his autobiography.

It is telling in that he was actually born a street person as we would call

it now.  His father was a wino and he was brought up in the wino community.

It is to his credit that he did as well as he did.

 

The effect of prison also probably helped to bring about his downward slide.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Jul 1995 01:01:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: beats and the femmes

 

Minor Characters is an excellent book.  You might also check out How I Became

Hettie Jones, (by Hettie Jones) another fine book about women & the Beats.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 22 Jul 1995 10:26:22 GMT

Reply-To:     JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Re: beats and the femmes

 

Minor Characters is a wonderful book, and I recommend it to anyone with any

interest in Kerouac and Cassidy.  Joyce Johnson is a good writer, she was

there, and she provides a degree of objectivity not always found in writings

by/about the Beats

 

--

John Lynch

 

"You told me again, you preferred handsome men

But for me you would make an exception"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:07:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject:      NYU Conference

 

The Kerouac Connection is seeking articles, reviews, photos, and interviews

in connection with the NYU Conference on The Writings of Jack Kerouac. There

are no specific length and style restrictions for coverage of this event; if

you have something to say, I will work with you on structuring it for

publication.

 

The deadline for submissions is August 15, but contact me before that if you

are interested.

 

I am also interested in audio tapes, transcriptions or original copies of the

talks presented. Presenters may submit their work directly to the magazine

for consideration.

 

I would also appreciate any brochures, fliers, or posters about the event

that could be sent my way.

 

Submissions may be sent by email to keroconnec.aol.com or to:

 

The Kerouac Connection

PO Box 462004

Escondido, CA 92046-2004

 

Submission on disk (mac preferred) are encouraged.

 

Mitchell Smith, Editor

The Kerouac Connection

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Jul 1995 13:05:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac Connection

 

The Kerouac Connection #27 (Winter 95 Issue) has just been published and is

now available!  This issue features papers and reviews from the NYU Beat

Generation Conference, including papers on Kerouac, Corso, and Ginsberg.

There is also a memorial section on Charles Bukowski. The section contains

some Bukowski poetry and drawings, plus memorial pieces by Neeli Cherkovski

(author of the bio "Hank"), Gerald Locklin (longtime Buk friend and

co-editor), and Michael C. Ford as well as poetry by same and others.

 

The NYU coverage will continue in KC #28 due out in July with more papers as

well as up to the minute news on the Kerouac Estate legal battles, from the

Jan Kerouac Press Conference at the NYU Conference to current developments.

 

As always, the issue contains news on Kerouac and Beat-related publications,

upcoming events, listings of articles and papers published on Kerouac, and

letters from around the world.

 

Subscriptions are $20 for 4 issues (foreign orders may send personal checks

in your nation's equivalent of $20--no cash please).  Single issues can be

obtained for $5.  If you wish to order both issues on the NYU Conference (#27

& 28), you can prepay $9 for both (or indicate that you want a 4 issue

subscription for $19). Checks made payable to The Kerouac Connection. The

magazine address is:

 

The Kerouac Connection

PO Box 462004

Escondido, CA 92046-2004

 

I hope to hear from you in the near future, and thank you for your interest.

 

Mitchell Smith, Editor

The Kerouac Connection

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 23 Jul 1995 16:54:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Connection

 

Mitchell -

In addition to my regular subscriber's copy, please send us

10 copies of new issue with invoice at dealer's discount.

Thanks.

Jeffrey H. Weinberg

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

tel 508-485-8515

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:01:58 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Josephine Thomson <Josephine=Thomson%OAE%AVN@SMTPGATE.DOTC.GOV.AU>

Subject:      Re: beats and the femmes

 

Thanks for all the suggestions on the books to read - scribbling them down &

ringing the bookstore is a great way to waste the first half hour at work on a

Monday morning.

Kristen, thanks for making me think more specifically about what I meant to

say...still thinking.

 

Josephine

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:57:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Raymond Holloway <urhollow@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

In-Reply-To:  <950705145645_25814261@aol.com>

 

On Wed, 5 Jul 1995, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

 

> Our mail-order catalogue is filled with the best from Beat writers: Kerouac -

> Ginsberg - Burroughs - Corso - Whalen - McClure, many others. Nice used

> copies, scarce first editions, recordings, videos, posters, T-shirts, etc.

> Thousands of Beat items in stock. Lots of Bukowski too. If you'd like to be

> placed on our mailing list, please send your snail-mail address. It's free.

> Satisfaction guaranteed. Free Search Service too.

> Cisco Harland

> Water Row Books

> PO Box 438

> Sudbury MA 01776

> Tel 508-485-8515

> Fax 508-229-0885

> e-mail waterrow@aol.com

> 

Suscribe Raymond Holloway urhollow@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:40:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject:      NOWHERESVILLE

 

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From:   MAILER-DAEMON@emout04.mail.aol.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)

To:     DanLauff@aol.com

Date: 95-07-27 00:45:39 EDT

 

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Description: Session Transcript

 

550 cunyvm (tcp)... Host unknown

550 beat-l@cunyvm... Host unknown

 

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Description: Returned Content

 

Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com

        (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA222419851; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:37:31 -0400

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:37:31 -0400

From: DanLauff@aol.com

Return-Path: <DanLauff@aol.com>

Message-Id: <950727003731_123952034@aol.com>

To: beat-l@cunyvm

Subject: Nowheresville

 

Readers should be aware of NOWHERESVILLE an adult comic book-noir referred to

as Kerouac meets Chandler.  It is published by Caliber Press.  Try your local

comic dealer or Caliber's 1-800-346-8940 for credit card orders.

 

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:11:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Gene Simakowicz <Genebard@AOL.COM>

Subject:      MTV

 

Maybe it's just me,but what is this On The Road business MTV is putting on

the airwaves with these kids traveling cross country in an RV? Maybe I'm

getting old or cynical. This is one of the times I'm thankful that I'm in my

forties.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:04:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: MTV

In-Reply-To:  <950728081119_42661723@aol.com> from "Gene Simakowicz" at Jul 28,

              95 08:11:20 am

 

> 

> Maybe it's just me,but what is this On The Road business MTV is putting on

> the airwaves with these kids traveling cross country in an RV? Maybe I'm

> getting old or cynical. This is one of the times I'm thankful that I'm in my

> forties.

> 

 

it's a group of people thinking they are doing something original.  (sort

of like sex. i'd be surprised if any have read kerouac.) why television?

it's what they relate to. i grew up watching way too much tv.  most people my

age have. i'm 24.  would i roam around the country in an rv while people tape

my every move and mtv foots the bill?  no. i see nothing bold or innovative in

this. just goes to show you, it's not age, it's perception.

*smirk*

kristen

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:36:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: MTV

 

everything has been done before.  except now, it's done in color and

in an air-conditioned RV (fully equipped, i'd bet).  back to the

future, but without the sweat!

 

claudia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:23:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: MTV

 

Didn't Wolf follow around the Merry Prankster in Kesey's bus, driven

by Neal Cassady, and then write a book about it: the electric

kool-aid acid trip, or something to that effect. So, yes, everything

has been done before. This is definately OTR meets the MTV generation.

lisa

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:39:59 +0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject:      GOING DOWN 1

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

 

    whew! i finally edited out all those unwanted "uncontrolled" char-

acters....of course, maybe they will magically reappear, quite beyond

my comprehension or control, when this arrives at its designated desti-

nation-points....this is a story i wrote about 2-&-a-half years ago &

haven't done anything with yet (finally succeeded ? in uploading it),

actually it's one in a series of "chapters" of a projected hypothetical

"novel" a few more of which i may send later....if anyone happens to be

in boston august 4-8 check out the international chinese philosophy

conference at boston university (school of theology, i think), where i'll

be presenting a paper on the i ching and derridean "writing"--perhaps as

part of a panel where comparative issues concerned/intertwisted/inter-

twined with the (real or imaginary) concepts of "reason"/"rhizome"/"tao"

may be being discussed, or at least entertained....

 

   frank w. stevenson, national taiwan normal university, taipei

 

 

                            GOING DOWN

=20

 

                        1.  the roach  =20

 

 

    in media res in molecular gaps, interstellar interstices of=20

cowhide molecules of his aged leather sandals, whisked from  the=20

market in kabul in early august when they felt still fresh and=20

invigorated by the crisp mountain air, his left foot came down on=20

solid concrete, molecules densely packed, on a cracked and lit-

tered sidewalk in taipei in a depressing light rain. he was=20

remembering his trip across afghanistan and india to thailand and =20

the far east, seventeen years earlier as the crow flies as he=20

reckoned it.=20

 

    sad, a little. nostalgia. that's life, mon. "'tis the fate=20

man (and cow? cowhide molecule?) was born for/'tis moi you mourn

for."=20

 

   sam was walking back to his apartment in southern taipei, where

he dwelled with taiwanese wife and daughter. he passed the univer-

sity building on his right, glanced up at his 8th floor english=20

department office (feeling faintly paranoid, on the vertiginous verge=20

or twinge of nausea), then straight and left onto the narrow=20

alley, down one block....he watched the leather sandals at the end =20

of grey pipe-stems that were his pants come down on soft and gutted=20

concrete that seemed to open abysmally in the rain (k'an, water, the=20

abysmal, one yang between two yin's) beneath his feet.

 

    how can i still have these old sandals? he wondered. he=20

hadn't worn them for years, thought the disappeared, then=20

found them the night before purely by chance in an old cardboard=20

box and put them on that morning on a whim....riding on a whim,=20

riding in a boxcar...they were reminding him of temps perdu,=20

perhaps a talisman,  magic carpet lifting, lilting....soft voices=20

calling, leather squeaking, molecular mouse squeaks....lightly=20

wafting him =A0ack, and/or lifting  back to  front, to the=20

"now"....relativity, which train stopped and which=20

moving?....front to back and back to front, deja vu, experience=20

of previous lifetimes....all in the frontal & occipital lobes, he=20

thought, all in the f-ing chemicals...tho that's an effrontery,=20

hah! to sheer transcendental idealists, to la belle metaphysique=20

perhaps and la plupart de la pensee continental, to paradigms,=20

pair o' ducks, or (in a word) paraplui.=20

 

    the rain was picking up so he opened his umbrella and raised=20

it  moments before reaching the ta men ko, "main  door mouth" of=20

his apt bldg on  left. then he was taking (the) unwieldy key out=20

of left pants pocket, after shifting umbrella to right hand in=20

heavy rain now, and fumbling to unlock the clumsy iron door...inside,

the  key back to pocket, folding the umbrella...each action seemed

infinitely slow and painful to him, as if caught between the molecular

moments and stuck there in an endless viscous mass, a viscosity of glue,=20

airplane cement or library paste.... his brain cells "pasted in"....

a great dumb lumbering elephant wallowing in mud, in  the glutinous

morass, the abyss, mise en abime, he commenced the slow and tiring walk=20

up five steep flights of filthy stairs in a dark, warm and very humid=20

stairwell.=20

 

    ...it was....he remembered the feeling now in northern india,=20

autumn sunshine rich and balmy, almost decadent after (arid dried-shit-

smell) catharsis, purification of the persian desert, crossing from=20

pakistan at amritsar and loving the green trees and grass and the cows

everywhere, owning the place, the milk, india springing you, incense=20

curry  pulsing with life in varansi in the streets, down by the sacred=20

river ganges debauched bodies burned to ash  and then sitting at the

streetside stalls drinking the bang lassies ("shoma bang mikashid?")

with flees "the flying dutchman," who  almost  set his beard on fire

by accident lighting the hash pipe in katmandu as they rolled howl-

ing on the dusty wooden floor, and walking beside the holy river=20

in bodh gaya with mark.....that was great, the clear blue sky and=20

not too hot in the north of india in when? november of '75? just=20

before heading north for nepal.....the tree, the temples every-

where, and then down by the river where buddha had walked, talk-

ing with mark...

 

    he was lying now in his bathtub in taipei, the water a less=20

dense medium than concrete or leather, trying to cool off before=20

commencing his morning's reading....or perhaps writing....

 

    they were standing by the bodhi tree beneath which buddha sat=20

and meditated for  many months on life as pain due to human=20

attachment and supposedly gained enlightenment. mark said,=20

"there's so much suffering, i mean  awareness of suffering, under=20

that tree. so much compassion. they say he was doing kind of a

christ trip, you know, taking on himself the suffering of mankind

in order to overcome it....in a way."

 

    sam was looking at the tree. "basically he just saw that it's=20

all passing quickly, right?" the fleeting desire to get high=20

played in the back corners of his mind but he tried to ignore it.=20

 

    "yep, to see clearly, to really know that it's all passing=20

quickly, going down fast,  everything going down and we're also=20

going down...."

 

     but sam thought this a natural  intuition of all life-

forms (even extra-terrestrial ones?), embedded in their bones,=20

that they were "going down fast," that they were beings in and of=20

time--he had always felt this (poets, artists surely felt it,=20

that's why they wanted to catch the fleeting meaning, freeze it=20

in the form of their work)--not derived from or dependent on any=20

philosophy or religion, though perhaps these images--buddha under=20

his tree--somehow helped people to focus on this awareness, to=20

foreground it....as art also did, in another way?....but just life's

fleetingness, not necessarily it's "going down"?...."or perhaps just

passing, not necessarily down or up...."

 

    mark reflected. "right, but that's the point: the just passing=20

is sad, its painful to us because of our illusion of standing still,

thinking we should be standing still, wanting to stand still and not

change but we can't so our passing has the sense of being a downer....

i mean, that's the point: we change, we die, right? we don't want to

die, become nothing.

 

     sam was thinking (now,  in his tub, he was also thinking)=20

there was some sort of paradox--life just passing because there's=20

death but death is an end, a limit, no more passing--but he=20

couldn't quite think it through. they had stared at the tree for=20

a long time; it made an indelible impression. then they'd walked=20

down by the river and mark had started talking about the beauty=20

of the river, the meadow and trees and temples behind (gesturing=20

widely), the beauty of all things. =20

 

    "it's all beautiful but it's all going down....or beautiful=20

because it's going down?" sam took off his sandals and started=20

wading into the shallow, pleasantly cool water. his thinking led=20

back to the same old paradox: beauty in the passing or in the=20

illusory form that would fix it?=20

 

    mark stood just on the shore, pondering it. "i don't know,=20

sam. but...." (looking around him, laughing, gesturing widely with

both arms) "....it's a high, right? it's an UP, man! it's fucking=20

BEAUTIFUL!" He was laughing his mark-laugh.=20

 

    "shit, you're right." this notion reinforced his own paradox-

ical bent and sam thought about it, wading in the shallow river=20

water. "maybe all going down and so, as heraclitus would say,=20

going up at the same time? the way up is the way down? the 'just=20

passing' equals the simultaneous, paradoxical up-and-down?"

 

    mark pondered it, pulling papers.....

 

    he went on, feeling the molecules of water around his feet:=20

"so =A0then this awareness, is it purely contemplative, based on a=20

formal identity of opposites (going down/coming up), or=20

pragmatic, based on the actual experience of personally going=20

down the drain, the great cosmic sink, and coming back up again=20

in an altered form, the form of an enlightened being, a cockroach=20

for example?"=20

 

    mark pondered it, pulling papers from the right side pocket=20

of his white cotton vest and rolling up a "j" faster than anyone=20

else he'd known could do it. then they were smoking one, mark=20

just on the shore in white cotton pants, open vest and sandals,=20

sam in brown cotton pants so thin and light rolled up, red cotton=20

vest  open too to the breeze and sun, up to his knees almost in=20

the sacred river, onto which were falling lightly the ashes of=20

their momentary passing. it was great. life was great. hemingway=20

fishing his river, where fishing was also "tragic"...a balance,=20

perhaps....tathgatha, "suchness".....

 

    "or maybe there's no down. maybe passing is just going up,"

mark said, the last word choked off by the toke but he raised the=20

hand not holding the joint to express the point & then they both=20

were holding their breaths, sam as if in a sort of sympathetic=20

resonance, & then bursting out. they were getting high.

 

    sam shrugged his shoulders, arms extended on either side with=20

both palms facing up.

 

    "no sam, sam, wait" passing him the j "it's not that it's =20

all going down and we maintain the illusion of going up--this is=20

what people think, right? this is why they get ripped? (laughing=20

uncontrollably with the burst of exhaled smoke)--but it's not that,=20

sam, no! it's the  OTHER WAY AROUND!"....he was starting to get=20

excited in a certain way he had, speaking faster, gesticulating,=20

eyes gleaming from behind the black beard of youth....

 

    sam held it as long as he could, feeling the river between=20

his toes, and then breathed out the smoke, thinking of molecules=20

in air ..."cruising at a certain altitude..." mark laughed and he=20

passed it back..."do you want the roach?" passing it....thinking=20

of smoke molecules in the air, of ezra pound (now, lying in his=20

tub, he thought) ("still stone dogs/caught in metamorphosis/biting

empty air")....(or rilke: "throw the emptiness from your arms/to

feel the expanded air")....or just frozen, in the abysmal water=20

running through your veins like time, in the abysmal sky breathing

through ancient lungs, in mid-flight, tasting the aftertaste,=20

ashes under the tongue.....and then mark came in and they waded=20

silently in small circles of river water glittering in sunlight.

they were definitely stoned.

   =20

   or had been, once, he thought, lying naked in luke-warm water=20

in his tub in taipei about 16 years later. yes, they had passed=20

the joint and gotten stoned that time and then that had passed.=20

the getting stoned in bodh gaya, like a lot of things before and=20

since, had passed. even the ashes of their passing that floated=20

in the warm currents of the river had passed. you could freeze=20

the moments but you also couldn't freeze them, like ice they=20

would be already melting.=20

  =20

    he lay in the cooling water in his tub and clenched his=20

fists. he felt like a fucking roach that had climbed up out of=20

the drain into the merely human world of money and concrete=20

walls, into shit city, and then couldn't find its way back=20

down.....or was it the other way around?

 

                   =20

=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=

=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A=1A

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:43:40 +0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject:      unstrung signifiers (fwd)

Comments: cc: Seth Stevenson <SethSteve.@Brown.Edu>

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:46:04 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Cc: Seth Stevenson <SethStevenson@Brown.Edu>

Subject: unstrung signifiers

 

   BUT I do also like Auerbach's book, especially as it is such a fine

piece of "traditional" (pre-post-modern, pre-post-structuralist) scholarship

and of "close reading" (that art apparently lost to all except perhaps the

Derrideans, oddly enough)....of course, the question of what mimesis or

RE-PRESENTATION finally IS and of whether ART is ultimately MIMESIS of

"WIRKLICHKEIT" or something else (like maybe expression, impression,

mere "pression," language games, unstrung chains of confused "signifiers"

looking for a quick fix, power "discourses"--with automatic transmission

and up to 500 horsepower--sort of swimming around with cleched fists and

copulating with one another, as our  foucauldians friends the "cultural

critics" might have it) is an ever-burning issue in literary theory......

 

   Frank W. Stevenson, N.T.N.U., Taipei

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 29 Jul 1995 03:13:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nicholas Molise <OttoMadX@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: MTV (blah, blah, blah)

Comments: cc: Seymour360@aol.com

 

Of course this MTV crap has gotten way out of hand.  But they are after all,

just making money off the fact that nothing is original anyhow.  Everything,

everyone is cool.  Nothing you hold sacred is sacred anymore.  Even the most

raw and underground, untainted thing you know, be it an author, artist,

whatever, will soon be expolited and sold as t-shirts for $24.95 in the back

of Rolling Stone.  We have become a target market.  Even now hidden away in

some backwards mailing list on the internet, people are at this very minute

plotting on ways to sell our dreams in slick, gooey packaging.

 

Its really sad to see all the great writers and ideas that came out of the

beat generation boiling down to another hollywood flick or ads for kahkis at

the Gap.  But perhaps it was always that way.  Hollywood did a number with

Subterraneans and look where they published Kerouac's articles in his later

days - Playboy.  He was so ashamed that he could only get published in some

magazine he couldnt even show to his mother.  Could it be that all of this

was expolited from the beginning and we just have to overlook it.  None of

the beat generation authors were superheros to begin with and now they are

all just perpetuating the image.  Ginsberg is a crabby old man living on old

ideas and borrowed notions.  Him and the rest of the gang that are still

around hold meetings and seminars, making money off their former

associations.  Recently they held a Kerouac conference at NYU for what, $350

a person.  Doesnt anyone else see this as ironic capitalism.  I bet they were

all wearing Jerry Garcia ties as well.

 

The thing to remember is not how much money they are going to make selling

what has inspired you as different flavors of bubble gum - but the fact that

you were inspired in the first place.  No one here would deny that reading

Kerouac or Bukowski or even Hemingway for the first time made you think that

you were the only person in the world - that what you were reading was

especially for you.  Well, it is up to the point that you dont get

disappointed every time someone tries to sell your art as used tires.  I mean

after all - we do live in America.  Explotation is what we do best.

 

And besides all of this has been done before.  This same message written, any

kind of angry replies you may decide to write defend Ginsberg - they have

already been written. Its like critizing Tarentino for ripping off John Woo

films - all we know about film comes from other films, so why not?  Were all

just living on third generation images anyhow.

 

Nick.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:03:45 +0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject:      Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

Comments: To: deleuze-guattari@jefferson.village.virginia.edu

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 19:02:35 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Cc: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Subject: Re: RECENT DISCUSSION (fwd)

 

 

 

    Thank you, Ms. L.B. Bissell, for your wondrous reply-post, full of

brilliance and wit and at a level of sophistication (Oxford....hmmm, that

might explain it....notice typical Yank inferiority complex at work here,

which may help to explain following "ant" metaphor with Lilliputian amp-

litudes) sufficient to keep me luxuriously "feeding" upon it

for days and weeks, at my leisure in the late afternoon sun....(more or

less like a swarm of hungry ants feeding upon the sweetest honied

carcass....)

    I realize I'm probably too quick to reject the (seemingly, but perhaps

I've over-simplified them, perhaps that's the point) more blatantly political

and "politically correct" forms of criticism so fashionable now, e.g.

cultural studies, post-colonialism, etc: BUT I would still maintain (as

I did at a recent American Lit conference here where evveryone was saying

we must emphasize plurality and DIFFERENCES among ethnic groups, no

old-fashioned notion of lit as expressing UNIVERSAL human qualities was

to be allowed--because it's always the ones in "power" that define the

univversal, is that it? this seems nonsense to me--that when Hamlet says

"Alas poor Yorick,/I knew him well, Horatio/He was a fellow of infinite

jest"....or when Chguang-tzu says "This is also that," there is something

deeper and more "univversal" at work or play than the levvel of

socio-ethnic-political "differences" or group-identities....)

 

    fws

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:56:04 +0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject:      going down 2 (fwd)

Comments: To: derrida <derrida@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu>

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:55:15 +0800 (CST)

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@cc.ntnu.edu.tw>

To: phil-lit <phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu>

Cc: fict-of-phil <fiction-of-philosophy@jefferson.village.virginia.edu>

Subject: going down 2

 

 

 

                       journal: summer 1974

 

 

may 12:

 

   climbed damavand with ted heal and his brother tom saturday:

great experience! getting cold and windy near the top, quite a

contrast with the (sublunary) temperature down here....the best

part was the tea houses going up and the the look on taxi driv-

ers' faces when they saw 3 ferengi walking out at the bottom....

on the spur of the moment we jumped in a cab and came down to

bist-o-char esfand for dinner at the indian restaurant....

   trying to forget elaine: bike, desert, hashish all help a lot

(in reverse order perhaps).  jim baines says i've got to "get a

lot stronger" so i've started riding solo into the desert and

practicing my sufi meditation at least once a week--usually

saturday afternoons, sometimes sundays.

    baines also said last week that "persians have no souls."

(but he fucks irani chicks in the ass whenever he gets the

chance.) amazing! the scots even bigger bigots than the brits?

 

may 21:

 

   ok! getting better at this desert meditation thing--sometimes

focus on breath like ted (zen technique supposedly) but it seems

to work better when i take the desert itself as mantra, just try

to fill my mind with the emptiness of the (concept of the) desert

itself. (in fact it's what the sufis did according to mashid, but

he could be bullshitting.) i can just cruise for about an hour

now, try to stretch it out a little longer each time by holding

before me (in my mind's eye, before my mind's nose?) the obvious

reward, which i keep right in my shirt pocket. (but then, you

ask: how can i  "empty my mind"? or "desert" my mind? good ques-

tion, mate.) ("dessert" my mind?) (or, au contraire, perhaps

drooling pavlovian dogs are the best little meditators?)

 

may 28:

 

    moved into ted heal's apt. yesterday. seems it will work out

ok. (a psychologist & a philosopher, after all.) teheran clear

and dry, not too hot at denver altitude, crisp air invigorating,

snow-capped damavand at 18,000 ft. shining as ever out window to

the northeast...(actually my old window view was slightly better

but ted has a larger, and better placed, balcony.)....feeling

good after  first year of teaching....crazy ted likes to talk

about "learned helplessness-ness" with the students at school,

and most nights he stays in his room alone listening to old

beatles and stones records...."hey jude...."

 

june  3:

 

   shit man, got too ripped after my "deserted mind"  session

yesterday, a little too heavy on the "dessert": walked (stag-

gered?) a few steps too far away (gazing at HORIZON, part of my

technique) from bike and spent 2 hours walking in circles till i

found it, allah be praised....(little prairie mounds just high

enough).... that was cool though, i sort of enjoyed it--i somehow

knew i'd find my bike as the alternative was too unthinkable....

just high enough!

 

 

june 10:

 

    hah! mashid calls jim baines a "true gold-digger"--irani term

for ass-fucker.

    why have i never been interested in anal sex with women? (of

course, not with men, but why not even with women?) too "dirty,"