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QQAA+UEAACdCAAA3QgAASUIAAG9CAAB6QgAAn0IAAKBCAACrQgAA00IAAOVC

AAAMQwA=

 

--Part9711101703A--

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:58:03 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi Nancy, I love your spiritedness, I still want to answer your post-.

 

The emergemce of a top flower that just approaches perfection more than the

vast number of specimen that are all reaching for it, is just a fact of

nature. Whatever I am looking at, from a to z, including marijuana, or

physical strength or beauty, wheat fields produced by nature, art produced

by persons, there are the vast majority, the avarage, pretty good enough to

survive, but have to strain everything they got just to do that, to survive.

Usually the first taste of it overwhelms you with how great it is, but it

don't stay long, leaves you tired and exhausted. Had to strain too much. A

very few are not equipped well enough to survive. Poor specimen. Sad. But no

less value in the scheme of things. I too enjoy my life, even though I drop

my jaws in awe when I see what other people are producing. Dismissing

unequal endowment as "just competition" to outdo each other just looks away

from the fact of nature.

 

I like Diane's calling to our attention Kerouac's distinctions between

talent and genius. (Thanks Diane, I so often want to say thanks Diane) Lots

of us strain our talents to do something good with it, many of us succeed,

barely.

 

In human mind matters we call the very, very few top flowers "genius". What

was the dream of many writers, to produce the great american novel, was many

times a metaphor for the dream of saying it all in a manner that elnlightens

about everything and inspires the imagination of the reader to get the full

story. Of course there are zillions of beautiful, inspiring and illuminating

sories, but somewhere is the genius above all other geniuses that every

connoiseur is dying to encounter, that will weave the details into the full

picture, lots of ways to say it. We always are on the lookout for that

essence captured in its richness of details in an appetizing appealing work

that shows it all to us, no matter how complex.

 

Maybe OTR did this for the post wwII educated white middle class american

youth. But where is the book of the century that starts plunging  into the

currents of America, the frontrunner of the Western world history and

culture wher the families nations and races of the past move in together one

way or another in strife misery and mistreating each other, their environent

and each other but somehow also forced into melding together, building vast

technologies, a new race in the making, in turbulent, dynamic action and

power hungry arm twisting moving from pen to computer, from ground to air

locomotion, where is the work that will hold it all up to us like a dazzling

mirror to the imagination. Some genius will be there using all the tools

available, then we will know it when we see it. Just like Shakespeare or

Beethoven stood out of the crowd. We'll know them when we see them. And yes,

absolutely let's enjoy whatever beauty is produced all around us avey day,

everywhere.

 

leon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sunday, November 09, 1997 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: another Kerouac?

 

 

>Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

>there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

>consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

>writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

>choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

>comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

>out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

>~Nancy

>

>

>

>On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

>

>> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

>> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region,

class,

>> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce

to

>> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

>> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

>>

>> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

fear

>> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

have

>> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

>>

>> ciao,

>> sherri

>>

>> ----------

>> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

>> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

>> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>>

>> Joey,

>>

>> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

>> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

>> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

>>

>> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

>> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

>>

>> J. Stauffer

>>

>> Joey Mellott wrote:

>>

>> >

>> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of

the

>> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

>>

>

>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>Sure-JK

>.-

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:04:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: GAN

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

> Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions

>that characterize the American dream -- has to

>capture the spirit that led Americans to believe that

>they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America

>lives with its failed expectations.  From my point of

>view, it doesn't matter whether or not the novel is

>linear or not, whether it's symbolic or realistic or a

>historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

>> situation.

 

 

From: _War of the Classes_ - Jack London

 

"Just about this time, returning from a seven

months' voyage before the mast, and just turned

eighteen, I took it into my head to go tramping.

On rods and blind baggages I fought my way from

the open West, where men bucked big and the job

hunted the man, to the congested labor centres of

the East, where men were small potatoes and hunted

the job for all they were worth.  And on this new

"blond-beast" adventure I found myself looking upon

life from a new and totally different angle.  I had

dropped down from the proletariat into what sociologists

love to call the "submerged tenth," and I was startled

to discover the way in which that submerged tenth

was recruited.

 

I found there all sorts of men, many of whom had once

been as good as myself, and just as "blond-beastly";

sailor-men, soldier-men, labor-men, all wrenched and

distorted and twisted out of shape by toil and hardship and

accident, and cast adrift by their masters like so many

old horses.  I battered on the drag and slammed back

gates with them, or shivered with them in box cars and

city parks, listening the while to life-histories which began

under auspices as fair as mine, with digestions and

bodies to equal mine, and which ended there before my

eyes in the shambles at the bottom of the Social Pit.

 

And as I listened my brain began to work.  The woman

of the streets and the man of the gutter drew very close

to me.  I saw the pictue of the Social Pit as vividly as

though it were a concrete thing, and at the bottom of the

Pit I saw them, myself above them, not far, and hanging

on to the slippery wall by main strength and sweat.  And

I confess a terror seized me.  What when my strength

failed?  When I should be unable to work shoulder to

shoulder with the strong men who were as yet babes unborn?

And there and then I swore a great oath.  It ran something

like this:  All my days I have worked hard with my body,

and according to the number of days I have worked, by just

that much am I nearer the bottom of the Pit.  I shall

climb out of the Pit, but not by the muscles of my body shall

I climb out.  I shall do no more hard work; and may God

strike me dead if I do another day's hard work with my

body more than I absolutely have to do.  And I have been

busy ever since running away from hard work."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:32 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

 

What about the Grape American Novel?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:38:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Jack Kerouac's literature can be grounded, surely, by what he read. Profound

external influences enhanced his education, that of friends who were also

well read in most phases of his life where the mind is impressionable and is

ready to absrob abstract thought. Part of what Kerouac is all about can be

stemmed from his early reading of Spengler's Decline of the West. With this

work and others like it grounded into his aesthetic consciousness, he is

able to affirm to his self and to others who were conducive to his

objectives as a writer, that what he wanted above all was to nurture a

"secret ambition to be a tremendous life-changing prophetic artist" (Letter

to Neal Cassady 1-8-51).

  Spengeler writes, "The text of a conviction is never a test of its

reality, for man is rarely conscious of his own beliefs."(Spengler, 179).

Kerouac knew this and tested this throughout his life as a writer and as an

observer. Reading, the very act of it as a writer reading the work of

another writer is on another level than one who reads for pleasure alone. It

is a sort of research. A small list in the quarterly shows that Kerouac had

a gamut of titles on his shelf. Christopher Smart, Joyce,Ezra Pound, Alan

Harrington's Secret Swinger, Vladimir Nabokov "the world's greatest living

writer" Jack had inscribed into his copy of the book, "Lolita", and Jean

Genet. Early Kerouac texts shows an influence of Hemingway, Proust, Saroyan,

Thomas Mann, and Wolfe. The mighty surge of words in Town and the City lends

evidence to Kerouac's revernece to Melville and Balzac, the act of writing a

huge opus which he had "laboured through poverty, disease, and beraevement

and madness" (Letter to Ginsberg, April 1948). That reading plays a huge

part in what captures the soul of Kerouac's writing is so evident it demands

a dissertation to try and pick apart the very influences that pervades

throughout his work.   P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> I've consistently

>said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

>something less or more than a novel?  I

 

     regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

it something like stream of intuition.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:23:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

>perhaps the great american novel should not exist

 

     perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

immediately afterward.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:25:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

>strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

>reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

>favourite.

 

     well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:34:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>Thanks for the reply. A good start, but what do we understand 'novel' to

>mean? Why will it not be linear? Why will it not even have plot in the

>traditional sense? This all must have something to do with what makes it

>great and american, right?

 

     well, as i said before, i'm looking at method.  why won't it be

linear?  for the same reason the post-modernists don't paint like

monet, for the same reason the impressionists didn't paint like the

artists before them.  is it necessarily better as time progresses? that

could be argued either way.  I think as far as America is concerned

non-linear, unrational, plotlessness is what we need right now.  the

majority of lit out there now has fallen behind "cultural progression,"

and not wthout reason.  our conscousnesses must change in order for us

to catch up with circumstances in our time.  we have to stop trying to

order the chaos and embrace it, to be mad drunken observers of a sort.

greatness is a bad word, i take it only to mean the next step in

literature.  great american novels have been written.  On the Road,

Gatsby, Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden, A River Runs Through It, there

are a lot.  artists have "to art" in their times, for their times, and

for everyone in that time, or their art is only pseudo-intellectual

garbage.  and so we need to spawn lit through the disheveled

consciousness of our time infused with the hopes of the future.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:43:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

>parodied

>from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

>therfore free

>game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

 

     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:47:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>I've read quite a bit about the heated discussions between he and other

>Beat "characters" about literature -- wolfeans and anti-wolfeans (as

>opposed to Woolfeans and anti-Woolfeans i suppose).

>BUT

>I've not heard much accounting for his practices and habits concerning

>Reading itself.

 

     this, IMHO, is largely due to the fact that he began to refuse to

discuss literature as part of his dislike for academic

intellectualization.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:23 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Lots of apples rot on the ground. There are enough around, provided by

nature, there will be more apple trees.

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

Subject: Re: The Great American Novel

 

 

>>perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

>>perhaps the great american novel should not exist

>

>     perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

>immediately afterward.

>.-

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:20:38 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

 

>     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

>so long ago and they were not attacked.

 

You are comparing parody of a poem that has received worldwide acclaim,

whose author is no longer alive, to smearing with feces the poetry of some

living person who is daring to make first hesitant steps to bare her soul to

friends, yes I thought we are friends, and getting vulgarities replacing her

words?!

 

Also, Mr Oullette, your advice to me would carry more weight if you had

bothered to look at what you so readily tsk. tsk,. me about.

 

Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being messed

around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly felt

reactions, that you don't approve of?

 

Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing others,

and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

 

leon

 

if you can't take a little

>cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

>look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

>your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

>submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

>we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

>fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

>but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

>is unaffected wordlessness.

>.-

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:46:07 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Tyson

 

I agree with most of what you have to say.  I am all for free speech and

the freedom to disagree.  I agree that if one posts anything they should

expect a critical response.  But read Maher's piece.  It clearly goes

way beyond the borders of good taste, and certainly of any civility

toward fellow listmemembers.  There is a social context to this list.

These are all real people, people we talk to daily.  We can disagree all

we want, but what Paul posted was in lamentable taste--juvenile,

meansprited and unnecessary.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

> but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

> is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:39:40 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

Tyson, the tone in which something is done accounts for everything.  to parody

Howl lovingly is one thing.  to denigrate it, because you don't like it, is

another.

 

also, it is wise to read what happens before one comments.  it gives a better

background to what's going on than simply approaching something from a totally

idealistic standpoint.  i know, because i've been guilty of it.  :-)

 

ciao, sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

>___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

>parodied

>from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

>therfore free

>game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

 

     i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:54:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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I really don't enjoy getting into frays such as this.  I've had some

regrets about my post about Paul's personality -- but nothing to lose

sleep over.  The line that hit the nerve that sparked my writing about

this was something at the end of one of his poems (not his revisions of

others) which used the word "crap" about the process of testing one's

creative juices out -- and especially that timid move we all face of

sharing poetic births with others.  While I was not particularly

victimized by Paul's satires -- i might actually have been less upset if

i had been vicitimized ironically (maybe i secretly felt left out

<Grin>), I felt that the hurdle we all go through to begin letting our

words flow and then the hurdle of sharing those words are definitely as

rough a road as a steeplechase.  To call by implication the products of

others crap seemed unduly foul.

 

On another note, I really appreciated Paul's quick post concerning my

questions about Kerouac and Reading.  Some of my wonderings were

certainly addressed.  More wonderings still remain in my original

questions.

 

I imagine that this will about hit my limit for 10 posts in a day (if

i'm not already over the limit).....

 

so ... off to a siesta

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

Sherri wrote:

>

> Tyson, the tone in which something is done accounts for everything.  to parody

> Howl lovingly is one thing.  to denigrate it, because you don't like it, is

> another.

>

> also, it is wise to read what happens before one comments.  it gives a better

> background to what's going on than simply approaching something from a totally

> idealistic standpoint.  i know, because i've been guilty of it.  :-)

>

> ciao, sherri

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Tyson Ouellette

> Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 10:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: mr maher's narcissim

>

> >___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you

> >parodied

> >from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and

> >therfore free

> >game to 'play' with and insult list poets.

>

>      i seem to remember a few people satirizing Howl on this list not

> so long ago and they were not attacked.  if you can't take a little

> cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

> look at.  and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

> your knickers in a bunch about?  granted, one should feel comfortable

> submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

> we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

> fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

> but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

> is unaffected wordlessness.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:55:41 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

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beat-L'ers

i thought this might interest a few of you.

yrs

derek

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:20:09 -0500

From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: BEAT GENERATION

 

Wish to invite all those interested in the Beat Generation to my

website, where I am posting my unpublished book, THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL

ARONOWITZ, which includes a commentary on the death of Allen Ginsberg, a

discussion by Jack Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes on the origins of the

term, BEAT GENERATION, an interview with Kerouac and his mother

(annotated by Kerouac himself), an interview with Neal Casady in San

Quentin Prison (also annotated by Kerouac) plus original 1959 interviews

with other major BG figures.  These are the applicable URLs:

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column1.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column21.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column22.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column23.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column24.html

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column25.html

I am one of the first print journalists to take the Beat Generation

seriously and to report on it extensively in the New York Post in 1960.

-- Al Aronowitz

***************************************

Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:51:35 -0800

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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-----Original Message-----

From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: mr maher's narcissim

 

 

Overlooked some  toher things you brought up:

 

>if you can't take a little

>>cajoling or criticism then don't submit you're work for all of us to

>>look at.

Since you seem to take upon yoursel editorial prerogatives to tell us what

we should or should not submit don't you think you should give us some

guidelines aso to what amounts to a little cajoling?

>>and if the work wasn't yours, what the hell are you getting

>>your knickers in a bunch about?

It is for you to think whatever you wish about what might motivate me to

object to defiling of someone's beautiful poetry.  I don't have to share

your guidelines about how much I have to be hit myself before I express my

disgust wuth behavior that I find disgusting.

And please, do me a favor, since you volunteered so cavalierly a comparison

between what you dignify as a parody without reading it, please read it and

then tell me if you still hold your guidance as calid.

leon

granted, one should feel comfortable

>>submitting here without fear of mockery, but i'd like to think that

>>we're capable of handling these things in a manner of wild madliving

>>fun.  I didn't see Paul's posts, so I can't take his remark in context,

>>but my points still stands.. lighten up, you know, the best come back

>>is unaffected wordlessness.

>>.-

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:08:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:32 EST from

              <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

 

Is that Steinbeck's grape work?  he h e h e

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:04:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971110183817.0069b020@pop.pipeline.com>

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paul ( and co.)

of course i agree with you that kerouac's work has a great amount of

intertext w/ other authors. BUT text can include much more than simply

printed words (some would insist that exitsance is "text") and kerouac is

as inspired by bird parker and bebop as he is by spengler and balzac (as

well as wolfe, joyce, etc...) and i wonder what in terms of art (graphic

art as opposed to printed art) kerouac found an influence.

        also - unfortunatley i think that b/c kerouac wrote abt himslef

(or was at least was inspired by his own life) his books and his life are

too often mixed. we should keep in mind burroughs reference to kerouac

being an "author" above all else - kerouac wrote fiction! (and while much

of the events are inspired by his own life and such - he is strecthing and

confusing and manipulating the facts to create the story the way he wajts

to tell - for instance wsb's "fortune" and "allowance" that kerouac makes

reference to. i think thatwsb clearly makes it evident that there was no

fortune in "whatever happened to kerouac?"...)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:09:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

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hello,

 

checked out the tape from a university library, have no idea where its

available elsewhere, havent checked the major Beat-stuff distributers.

 

published by Living Earth Music, BMI.

theres an address for a Living Music catalog

PO box 68, Litchfield Conn. 06759

800-437-2281

 

thats all i know,

eric

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:13:12 -0800 James Donahue

<donahujl@BC.EDU> wrote:

 

> could you send out the information for the rest of us

> to find or order?  thanks.

> j donahue

>

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

>

> > greetings Beat-l people,

> >

> > i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

> > pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

> > consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

> > are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

> > anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

> > times quite animated.

> >

> > what about other recordings?

> >

> >

> >

> > Eric

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:01:09 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

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marie- i don't think Lucy would agree...

 

randall

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:13:16 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

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Derek

 

I keep getting "Object not Found" for Aronowitz pages.  Any ideas how to

get these to come up?

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:21:20 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

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I was a bit confused when I proclaimed Gatsby the GAN.  Fitzgerald and

Hemingway, like Henry Miller, Anais Nin, Artaud, et al, made the Beat

Generation possible, as precursors to a 24-7 bohemian lifestyle.

 

Gatsby was the GAN of its time.

 

And, of course, appreciation for Artaud dwindled except in a few musicians.

 

 

----------

> From: Derek A. Beaulieu <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: GAN

> Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 9:55 AM

>

> beat-l'ers

> i just thought that i would throw my hat into the fray a lttle bit and

> reply to some of the below ...

> i think that the great american novel changes depending on the decade and

> the poopular beliefs that you are examining the book thru and as

> reflecting (for instance, some would argue that "sometimes a great

> notion" or "on the road" or" the great gatsby" or "naked lunch" or "the

> sun also rises" or... is the

> GAN, but each reflects a different era and way of looking at america. for

> instance was 'naked lunch" even conceivable when "the great gatsby" was

> written?)

>         the novel has gone thru a great amount of changes, in my opinion,

> esp since the creation of the "modern novel" (be that the effect of

> joyce's _ulysses_ and woolf's _mrs.dalloway_) and can pre and post

"modern

> novel" novels be measured together? can any two genres be compared?

>         and on another note altogether - from what i understand, BIll,

> while i cant think of any reference that kerouac made to DosPassos and

the

> USA Trilogy, i know that BUrroughs thought of it as a great influence and

> i do belive refered to it as a precursor to the cut-up and filmic

> techniques that he used later on (ask neil hennessy abt the filmic

> techniques of wsburroughs...)

>         does any one else know more abt Dos Passos and his influence on

> beat lit?

> yrs

> derek

>  On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> >

> > Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

> > questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european

etc.

> > My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

> > American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

> > good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

> > you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

> > often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

> > metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

> > notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

> > on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE

Great

> > American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

> > "genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road

(I'd

> > include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

> > cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

> > Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

> > American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> > American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> > believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> > with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> > whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> > realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> > situation.

> >

 

Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer

(peyotecoyote@iah.com)

"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

- Antonin Artaud

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:17:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

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Marie Countryman wrote:

 

>my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

>the top of his doghouse.

 

I like that!

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:46:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The Great Grape American European Novel Project

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Hey, I like the Grape American Novel.

 

Brautigan with his muscatel. Coppola with his vineyard. A cool cellar, a

loaf of bread, and lots of time.

 

Still, when we say "Great American Novel", don't we mean something more

than "Best American Novel"? What are the parameters for "Great"? or

"American"? For instance, Diane Carter suggested that the "Great American

Novel" should portray the American spirit and the American dream. Why?

Could there not be a more vital story? America is more than one story,

isn't it? Well, Hollywood may not think so, but that should put it into

perspective quickly. Or, to look at it from another sideways glance, the

Beats, esp. Bukowski, are extremely popular in Germany (and German

film-makers are awfully fond of the U.S.). To follow that: might not a

German write the Great American Novel? They already have "American"

restaurants, the way we have "French" ones. If not, why not?

 

What's more, "Great American Novel" suggests to me at least a sense of

universal definition, phrased, as Diane Carter asked for, in a new approach

to or extension of language. My take is that "Novel" is limitting here, as

others have suggested as well.

 

Best,

 

Harold

**

 

James Donahue wrote:

 

canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

try to redefine the canon or stay within its

traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

and is not worthy of remembrance.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> favourite.

>

> Best,

>

>

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:27:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Grape American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>Is that Steinbeck's grape work?  he h e h e

 

For anyone who's worked in a vineyard   hoe hoe hoe

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:28:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <009BD161.EDE82A80.75@kenyon.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

im almost willing to bet that this question is easier to answer than the

great one...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, THE ZET'S GOOD. wrote:

 

> What about the Grape American Novel?

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:33:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199099.thr-58ddc224.55d4ae2@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

just a thought.

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> > I've consistently

> >said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> >something less or more than a novel?  I

>

>      regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

> looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

> writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

> of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

> prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

> this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

> but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

> post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

> all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

> scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

> isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

> it something like stream of intuition.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:51:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <34676ADC.339B@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

james (and co.)

all i now is what i posted. maybe try contacting oronowitz himself??

yrs

derek

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

>

> Derek

>

> I keep getting "Object not Found" for Aronowitz pages.  Any ideas how to

> get these to come up?

>

> James Stauffer

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:02:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.WNT.3.96.971110172816.-78945A-100000@kathy-s-pc>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

would that be Ralph Steadman's (he of "fear and loathing in Las Vegas"

illustration fame) book _the grapes of ralph_??

yrs in jest

derek

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Kathleen Beres wrote:

 

>

> im almost willing to bet that this question is easier to answer than the

> great one...

>

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, THE ZET'S GOOD. wrote:

>

> > What about the Grape American Novel?

> >

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:31:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kathleen Beres <beresk@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199109.thr-c628c7e8.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

perhaps danielle steele has been secretly working on it for years,

selling her trash only to make ends meet...

or maybe we are writing it now, in discourse...

or maybe its encoded in the bible...(for all of you following

that major discussion...)

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

> >perhaps the great american novel should not exist

>

>      perhaps it's been written and hastely tossed in a fireplace

> immediately afterward.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:28:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT GENERATION (fwd)

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Hi everybody,

 

        ...put blackj/ after /pages and then try - that'll work.

 

                Antoine

 

                ******************

James asked....

 

>beat-L'ers

>i thought this might interest a few of you.

>yrs

>derek

>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:20:09 -0500

>From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>

>Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

>Subject: BEAT GENERATION

>

>Wish to invite all those interested in the Beat Generation to my

>website, where I am posting my unpublished book, THE BEAT PAPERS OF AL

>ARONOWITZ, which includes a commentary on the death of Allen Ginsberg, a

>discussion by Jack Kerouac and John Clellon Holmes on the origins of the

>term, BEAT GENERATION, an interview with Kerouac and his mother

>(annotated by Kerouac himself), an interview with Neal Casady in San

>Quentin Prison (also annotated by Kerouac) plus original 1959 interviews

>with other major BG figures.  These are the applicable URLs:

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column1.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column21.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column22.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column23.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column24.html

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/column25.html

>I am one of the first print journalists to take the Beat Generation

>seriously and to report on it extensively in the New York Post in 1960.

>-- Al Aronowitz

>***************************************

>Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST

>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj

>

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:34:48 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: GAN

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Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

 

Given this context, I nominate Vonnegut's "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater."

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:55:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

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At 01:04 PM 11/10/97 -0700, you wrote:

>paul ( and co.)

>of course i agree with you that kerouac's work has a great amount of

>intertext w/ other authors. BUT text can include much more than simply

>printed words (some would insist that exitsance is "text") and kerouac is

>as inspired by bird parker and bebop as he is by spengler and balzac (as

>well as wolfe, joyce, etc...) and i wonder what in terms of art (graphic

>art as opposed to printed art) kerouac found an influence.

>        also - unfortunatley i think that b/c kerouac wrote abt himslef

>(or was at least was inspired by his own life) his books and his life are

>too often mixed. we should keep in mind burroughs reference to kerouac

>being an "author" above all else - kerouac wrote fiction! (and while much

>of the events are inspired by his own life and such - he is strecthing and

>confusing and manipulating the facts to create the story the way he wajts

>to tell - for instance wsb's "fortune" and "allowance" that kerouac makes

>reference to. i think thatwsb clearly makes it evident that there was no

>fortune in "whatever happened to kerouac?"...)

>yrs

>derek

>I thought it was about what he "read" and not what he "heard."

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:47:54 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      my first pome

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 This is my first posted pome, so go easy on me please!

 

puddle pome

 

this puddle on the floor--

where does it come from?

where does it go?

why is the sky blue?

WHY is the sky blue?

why does fate find me

stuck in the middle stall

on a Meaningless monday?

Ginsberg s knocking at the door;

he ll find the source.

He IS the source;

from him and old Jack Kerouac

all the good things flow.

now Cassady s climbing through the drain pipes

and dear Peter s face is in the mirror

and I m stuck in the middle stall,

a pawn of fate.

if I lean back far enough,

my feet won t touch the floor,

my feet can t touch the floor,

 cause maybe I don t want to step in it,

maybe I don t want to get involved.

the water s seeping through the cracks--

where does it come from?

where does it go?

where do we go

after we drain away?

I m already involved

I m seeping through the cracks--

Will the Ghost of Ginsberg get to me in time?

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:35 -0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DuarteMoniz <DuarteMoniz@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>

Subject:      Allen in Cornershop cd

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Just read in the newspaper about the recent release of  "When I was Born

for the 7th Time" CD by a english group named Cornershop. It has Allen

Ginsberg declaiming one of his poems with background of live sounds of

ambiance in a Punjab market, as is stated in the interview with band

members:

...

Question: One of the most remarkable tracks of this CD uses the voice of

beat poet Allen Ginsberg, recently deceased. How come that collaboration

to happen ?

Answer: We were touring the US during one year and a half. And what we

did was to end all the concerts with one tape of a very long poem

declaimed by Ginsberg, enregisted live  in the fifties. Allen khew about

this, heard our previous CD and was interested in working with us. Then

in one occasion we went to New York and  made arrangements to meet, and

he talked to us about a poem he had written thinking in Bob Dylan and as

it was conceived as a rock song. We tape him reciting that poem, in the

kitchen of his apartment.

 

Question: Then you attached that take with music that seems recorded in

a asian market. What is the connection ?

Answer: Yes, a tape that Tjinder did when he was in Punjab last years

summer.Then we decide to attach those two tapes, because Ginsberg always

had a strong attraction to Asia and his sympathies for oriental

philosophies are well known.

 

...

 

Duarte

 

Portugal

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:50:36 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Re: hooray for Vonnegut!

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  I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thinks Vonnegut is

one of the Great American Writers of our time.  Aside from the Beats

and possibly Hemingway, he's the only great writer 20th Century

America has ever had.  It's so tragic that he claims he's written his

last book!

              Maggie G.

 

 

---Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM> wrote:

>

> Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> > I think the great

> > American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize

the

> > American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> > believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America

lives

> > with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't

matter

> > whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> > realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the

above

> > situation.

>

> Given this context, I nominate Vonnegut's "God Bless You, Mr.

Rosewater."

>

> Jym

>

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:13:14 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      method and meaning

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hello all.

in the salinger list someone mentioned that one of their old english

professors said "If you aren't going to do something interesting with

words, you had better have a damn good plot." which i think is true,

but perhaps it depends on the person for which is easiest to do. then

again, all the really great stuff does both. and method is a lot more

important than content. if you say something right, you could give it

a double meaning, like the pun about steinback and the grape of wrath

someone recently posted. parables also do this, but they use a simple

style to relate the reader's attention back to the content.

although i bet a lot of people not on the beat-l would disagree with

you, the type who would not want to see that new movie boogie nights

because of the subject dealing with the 70's porn industry.

 

Randall

 

>      well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

> look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

> i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

> write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:11:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: method and meaning

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>>

>Plot is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,

Absalom, Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion

each chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each

character about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin

Compson what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on

this but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not

the plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or

non-linear so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:12:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

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>well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

>better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

>currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

>just a thought.

 

     definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

better.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:31:46 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American No

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> >well, i like the idea, but why a stream?  wouldnt an ocean be a

> >better metaphor?  rather than linear, it is infested with cross-

> >currents, but all contained somehow in this great expanse...

> >just a thought.

>

>      definitely... i'm a victim of writing e-mail on the fly, without

> thinking about what i write before i write it... ocean is definitely

> better.

>

i believe kerouac called his stlye "stream of conscious" (sp?).

keroauc is more "stream" than "ocean", but i definetly  agree that

his stuff is moving <grin>

 

Randall

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:46:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being

>messed

>around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly

>felt

>reactions, that you don't approve of?

>Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing

>others,

>and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

 

      i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:53:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>Since you seem to take upon yoursel editorial prerogatives to tell us

>what

>we should or should not submit don't you think you should give us some

>guidelines aso to what amounts to a little cajoling?

 

    eh?  are the messages you're reading different from the ones i'm

sending?  hmm.. wonder if i was making an attempt to preserve the

peace, maybe i actually felt compassion for thi list and didn't want to

see it devolve again... nah, i must be an asshole, after all, you don't

even know me, why give me the benefit of the doubt?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:00:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: mr maher's narcissim

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>But read Maher's piece.  It clearly goes

>way beyond the borders of good taste, and certainly of any civility

>toward fellow listmemembers.

 

     well, then, for what it's worth, which was nothing last time i

made an apology, i am sorry that i made an uninformed observation.  i

guess that i gave paul the benefit of the doubt and assumed an

overreaction.  i am concerned at how quickly i get jumped on when i say

something imperfect, i am human, i am proned to ego and plain

stupidity, please allow me my tragic flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:18:54 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Allen in Cornershop cd

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Thanks for the quotes from the interview about the song they did with

Allen.,

 

Cornershop is definitly cool.

 

They are playing at "Slims" in SF tonight in case anyone is close.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:15:09 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: That Fascist Leon?

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Tyson,

 

The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

folks I know.

 

I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

true how can you defend what you haven't read?

 

Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

 

Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

 

James Stauffer

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

>       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:27:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: That Fascist Leon?

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <3467CDBD.A98@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I happen to think that this is an appropiate place to post poetry...And,I

have to agree with James when he defends Leon. Leon is one of the nicest

guys Ive met on this list...

 

 

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Tyson,

>

> The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

> thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

> folks I know.

>

> I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

> true how can you defend what you haven't read?

>

> Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

> in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

> be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

>

> Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

> Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

> I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

> were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

> right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

> here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

> you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

>

> James Stauffer

>

> Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> >       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> > worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> > something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> > intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> > a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:31:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      I don't know about great

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I don't know about "great" but there are some American Novels that

profoundly shaped my way of looking at reality.  Some aren't really

novels even.  But, from the time I was about 16 to 24 or so, those

were, in a general order of discovery:

 

The Good Earth

Catch 22

Slaughterhouse 5

Moby Dick

Trout Fishing in America

A Confederate General in Big Sur (?)

Thomas Wolfe's work

Bob Dylan  (I saw it in a different light after reading Wolfe)

Jack Kerouac

V

The Crying of Lot 49

Phillip Dick's Science Fiction work

T S Eliot

Ginsberg

Studs Turkle (sp?)

The Last Tycoon (Fitzgerald's unfinished novel)

Michener

 

I think I stuck to American writers there, but maybe not.

 

Outside of America, in order as I recall:

 

Dickens

Shakespear

The Kazamarov Brothers (sp)

Steppenwolf

I, Claudius

The White Goddess

King Jesus

Tom Jones (came to it rather late for some reason)

 

I think that at various times I have imagined the GAN, but I am not

sure that a writer can capture the spirit of America in one book.  If

there is one, I think it would be Of Time and the River by Wolfe.  It

is a hard read, but it captures the spirit best of anything that I

have read.  My second choice would be Dharma Bums, although, I think

The Last Tycoon is a masterpiece that did not receive its just due.

 

Off the wall, into this email and on to you.

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:32:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>

> I happen to think that this is an appropiate place to post poetry...And,I

> have to agree with James when he defends Leon. Leon is one of the nicest

> guys Ive met on this list...

>

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

>

> > Tyson,

> >

> > The notion that Leon Tabory is a fascist is probably the most ludicrous

> > thing I have ever read.  Leon is probably one of the least fascistic

> > folks I know.

> >

> > I thought earlier you claimed to to have read Maher's post.  If that is

> > true how can you defend what you haven't read?

> >

> > Paul's post was agressively rude and crude--essentially shaking his dick

> > in the faces of the ladies who had posted poems.  I defend his right to

> > be an ass, but I would still have to call a spade a spade.

> >

> > Some people have questioned the posting of poems to the list.  Ron

> > Whitehead's frenetic posting of his own stuff was resented by some.

> > I've seen some wonderful things posted to this list and some things that

> > were frankly pretty forgettable--but that doesn't mean you have the

> > right to be grossly insulting.  What's wrong with a little civility

> > here--is that facism?  Your mother telling you to not say anything if

> > you couldn't say something nice was facism?  Give  me a break.

> >

> > James Stauffer

> >

> > Tyson Ouellette wrote:

> > >       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> > > worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> > > something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> > > intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> > > a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

> >

>

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

 

I've corresponded some with RW recently.  I sent him my little ditty

"Gang of One" that i'd posted on the Beat-L.  Not having been around

when the RW history happened I had no real idea of the fact that folks

had reacted against his writing.  I'm certainly glad that the atmosphere

has changed with regards to such matters.  So who is gonna invite Ron

back?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:38:23 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: I don't know about great

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> I don't know about "great" but there are some American Novels that

> profoundly shaped my way of looking at reality.  Some aren't really

> novels even.

>

> I think I stuck to American writers there, but maybe not.

>

> Outside of America, in order as I recall:

>

> Steppenwolf

 

I was thinking earlier today that HH's "Journey to the East" might be

the great american novel.  The whole notion of whether the great novel

should be attempted -- couched in the notion of history of the

journeyers by HH -- may be a central idea that connnects many many of

the various strings attached to this fascinating (for me) thread.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:52:55 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead

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David,

 

Not me!  Others have tried, I think.

 

As for me the thought of having two such tempremental egos as Ron

Whitehad and Gerry Nicosia on the same list is a little terrifying.  We

could have wheels within wheels of paranoia.

 

And here I go violating my own adage about not saying anything if you

couldn't say something nice.

 

J. Stauffer

 

RACE --- wrote:

 

  So who is gonna invite Ron

> back?

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:15:08 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

 

this is truly wonderful.  i especially liked ii.  thank you for posting it.

got any more?

 

ciao,  sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of First_Name Last_Name

Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 8:06 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Untitled Nightthoughts

 

untitled

 

        i

in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

such is thus i find myself

        (begrudgingly)

 

let us cut to the middle;

                                                .right the than important more

no is left the

after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

 and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

  about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

        i lurch for the sink.

(motion sensored as well)

        to moisten the pores of my face.

 

and upon doing so:

 

                ii

the sickly lightbulbs flickered

three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

        the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

  in lieu of a reflecting myself

                (since by now i am a gazing mute)

there is only a me - inherently dependent

      upon the siamesetriptych

 

my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

fusingwiththe

        d

          y

            i

              n

                g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

at this other i am many shades

   ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

 

                        iii

in the space between

the land of the prideful uroboros

is red

plasma-red with a penchant for

repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

 

   in the soul of the serpent between -

   gluttony mistaken for passion

   and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

 

in the space between

the sky is an obtrusive blue

forgetful of the notion of just, just being

and the larger airplanes dominate

while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

 

   in the body of the serpent

   my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

   so, in shame(noshame) effect,

   construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

 

in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

dishwater blinding bright

rests the virgin's thighs from whence

conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

unable to bungee back

 

   the palette of the serpent

   composed of congruent colors by nature

   though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

   - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

 

                                iv

i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

                                        backwards take a step with kouros

symmetry

        and retrieve my slingshot

   a series of

pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

eeessssssssss

and howls rage forth

   purging the essence of mars

   cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

   shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

 

                                        v

in the dark i can see nothing

there is fear; i falter in my confidence

all i have given myself is

 

autonomous

 

life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

 

the reflection is gone

the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

-their reflections pure and true- remain

 

i do not move.

i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

this glee-wary uncertainty .

 

11-09-97

bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:05 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: interest from the illiterate re:the GAN

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>

> Subject:

>         Re: Interest from the Illiterate Re: The Great American Novel

>   Date:

>         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:52 -0500

>   From:

>         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

>

>

> > I've consistently

> >said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> >something less or more than a novel?  I

>

>      regarding this segmenting of literature into cubby holes.  I'm

> looking forward to what I hope will happen as a natural progressio in

> writing, and what I try to do in my own writing, that is the breakdown

> of barriers of prose, poetry, music, etc.  so that we meld poetry with

> prose more fluidly than ever.  jack and the other beatrs obviously had

> this notion and worked at it, it's not a new discovery by any means,

> but has much farther to go.  what i think is happening is a

> post-post-mdernist stream of consciousness trend, but one that defies

> all accepted means of writing.  I guarantee you that it will  be

> scoffed at, that people will deem it confusing and unintelligible, but

> isn't that always the way? haven't we seen that before?  we might call

> it something like stream of intuition.

 

 

 

Perhaps one day all of us may become known as the "Intuitionists."

We'll be in the history books, the english books and be required reading

for college freshman english courses.  We'll have our own section in the

syllabus!  Dream dream dream....

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:52:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

In-Reply-To:  <3467D1BF.44E3@midusa.net>

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> has changed with regards to such matters.  So who is gonna invite Ron

> back?

 

I'd be the first to if for the fact that he'd probably get the same

reception he was getting when he left.  We tend to get a little to picky

and high schooly around here.  Personal differences are one thing, but

they should be put aside when they interfere with the true purpose of this

list.  We are scholars first.  The Beats and the study of them and their

work are the heart of this list.  Community problems and interpersonal

difficulties should come second, but as we've seen that's not always the

case.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:21:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ron Whitehead (was Re: That Fascist Leon?

 

I can't believe after not having weighed in for quite a while on any topic

I'm about to tell everyone I thought Paul's poem, while crude, was cleverly

done.  You gotta admit there was some real imagery there!  And probably if it

were my face he was shakin' his dick in front of I wouldn't be feeling so

generous.

 

But let's face it... suppose it was somebody else that posted that poem

instead of Paul?  Would we as a group have been so quick to jump on that

person?  Is Paul an easy target regarding that post simply because so many of

us have seen him as such an ass on other issues (I can't bring myself to say

which one)!  If someone else, maybe even anyone else, had posted that would

we still even be talking about it?

 

Everything we say bleeds over into everything else.  One of the reasons I got

tired of the Whitehead/Anstee War was simply because I lost so much respect

for both those guys I found myself discounting everything they said even it

it was valid.

 

Jerry Cimino

Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:52:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The intuitionists

Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net

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>Perhaps one day all of us may become known as the "Intuitionists."

>We'll be in the history books, the english books and be required reading

>for college freshman english courses.  We'll have our own section in the

>syllabus!  Dream dream dream....

 

>cathy

 

That's a good intuition

 

Harold Rhenisch

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:08:54 -0800

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      More of the Dharma...this is BEAT-L, after all!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jack Kerouac on classic 'structured' poetry:

 

        "Our savants all have bad taste.---Imagine Robt.Frost being better than

Thoreau, because of a few verse tricks.---I can take out a ruler and

measure too. I can even tell you how high a tree is by use of

geometry.---This makes me Archimedes? Lines make a poem?---I've seen

true poems in the middle of formless fortunate explanations, heard them

in the street & admired & forget them right there. Robert me No

Frost---Penn Warren me no more---" (Some Of The Dharma, p.120)

 

This was written in early fall 1954, right when Allen Ginsberg was

starting to follow Jack's example, to avoid the middle of the road and

head for the ditch (sorry, that's a Neil Young quote!).

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 05:25:06 -0600

Reply-To:     Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great Grape American European Novel Project

In-Reply-To:  <B08CBAEF-3CC75@207.34.191.132>

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> "American"? For instance, Diane Carter suggested that the "Great American

> Novel" should portray the American spirit and the American dream. Why?

> Could there not be a more vital story? America is more than one story,

> isn't it? Well, Hollywood may not think so, but that should put it into

> perspective quickly.

 

This reminds me of what Gore Vidal said of Paul Bowles:

"If [Bowles] is so good, why is he so little known? Great American writers

are supposed not only to live in the greatest country in the world (the

Unites States, for those who came in late), but to write about that

greatest of all human themes: THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE. From the beginning

of the Republic, this crude America First-ism has flourished. As a result,

there is a strong tendency to misrepresent or under-value out three finest

novelists: Henry James (who lived in England), Edith Wharton (who lived in

France), Vladimir Nabokov (who lived in Switzerland, and who wasn't much

of an American anyway despite an unnatural passion for our motels)....

Paul Bowles had lived most of his life in Morocco. He seldom writes about

the United States...."

 

So what do we want? A great novel by an American, or a great novel about

that "greatest of all human themes" no matter who it may be written by?

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:11:24 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: I don't know about great

In-Reply-To:  <3467D199.EC12EB3A@scsn.net>

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> I think that at various times I have imagined the GAN, but I am not

> sure that a writer can capture the spirit of America in one book.  If

> there is one, I think it would be Of Time and the River by Wolfe.  It

> is a hard read, but it captures the spirit best of anything that I

> have read.

 

I read Of Time and the River this summer....didn't at all find it a hard

read. At 900+ pages, I thought it would take quite awhile to get thru, but

the pages just flew by! It does "capture the spirit" in an energetic and

yet densely-described way. In any case, it's must-reading as background to

Kerouac; its influence on JK is palpable. For example, the first chapter

of part 3, the litany on Coming Home in October. "October had come again,

and that year it was sharp and soon...."

 

And I'll mention again a contemporary writer whom I think is pretty great:

Cormac McCarthy. Has no one heard of this guy but me?! His 1985 book

_Blood Meridian_ is probably the only novel I've ever read that I found

truly disturbing.

And his power of description is as luminous as anything I've read. Here's

a party of horsemen moving across a desert:

"They rode on. The white noon saw them through the waste like a ghost

army, so pale they were with dust, like shades of figures erased upon a

board....They moved on and the iron of the wagon-tires grew polished

bright as chrome in the pumice....They took to riding by night, silent

jornadas save for the trundling of the wagons and the wheeze of the

animals. Under the moonlight a strange party of elders with the white dust

thick on their moustaches and eyebrows. They moved on and the stars

jostled and arced across the firmament and died beyond the inkblack

mountians....The sand lay blue in the moonlight and the iron tires rolled

among the shapes of the riders in gleaming hoops that veered and wheeled

woundedly and vaguely navigational like slender astrolabes and the

polished shoes of the horses kept hasping up like a myriad of eyes winking

across the desert floor. They watched storms out there so distant they

could not be heard, the silent lightning flaring sheetwise and the thin

black spine of the mountain chain fluttering and sucked away again in the

dark. They saw wild horses racing on the plain, pounding their shadows

down the night and leaving in the moonlight a vaporous dust like the

palest stain of their passing."

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:46:16 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      to tyson

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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tyson, is there a way that we can help you get out of the corner you seem

to have painted yrself in, and return to the other subjects on the list? i

am sorry for your plight at this time. mr maher and i have taken the

mudslinging off list to back channel and now you are left out here,

feeling the stings of arrows. you are a valuable member of the list, even

though you feel under attack right now.

i am very sorry that you misread my post, (i think that's what happend)

in friendship if this is possible,

mc(not a fascist)

 

Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >Lastly, if you suggest we shouldn't be so thin skinned about being

> >messed

> >around with, than how come you object when someone expresses honestly

> >felt

> >reactions, that you don't approve of?

> >Think a little bit more and read before you leap into criticizing

> >others,

> >and also look at yourself and take your own counsel, please.

>

>       i wrote a long response to this, but i've erased it.  it's not

> worth posting cause it won't do any good.  last time i apologized for

> something i continued to be cold shouldered.  you misunderstood my

> intentions, but i stand by my statement.  i never thought when i joined

> a beat list that the core of its members would be fascists.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:49:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

 

In a message dated 97-11-11 01:44:32 EST, you write:

 

<< this is truly wonderful.  i especially liked ii.  thank you for posting

it.

 got any more?

 

thank you......i have more, but most of it is stuff i wrote during high

school to alleviate boredom.......but i suppose i would like to have an

opinion on it or so....when i have more time i will post some more later...

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:08:42 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1199130.thr-472e8572.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Ouellette, gentil Ouellette wrote:

 

>      well, as far as my motives for thinking about this topic, i always

> look at method before content.  I've reiterated the saying before and

> i'll push it on you all again, it's not what you write, but how you

> write it.  if anyone disagrees i'd like to hear their viewpoint.

 

I've said before, I think that probably what's most significant about

Kerouac's work is its rhythm and tempo (you always see that Ginsberg

quote, "spontaneous bop prosody")....it's so musical that it almost

doesn't matter *what* he's actually saying. One of the very few prose

writers of recent times whose work repays a study of prosody.

 

Reading JK has led me to begin paying more attention to things like

rhythm, tempo--rhetorical force generally--than I had been. I sometimes

hear people say about some popular song how profound it is, but after

listening to it all I can say is "No it isn't." And as someone on this

list said recently about Dylan, the songs sound great but on the page they

are rarely great poetry. So why do things like this sound so much more

profound when set to music--i.e., to a certain rhythm and tempo? Is this

gain in profundity just an illusion, or does it *really* add another

meaningful dimension? I'm beginning to think that it does really add

something important, that is not reducible to simple semantic meaning.

 

Too, I used to sneer at religious fundamentalists for clinging to the King

James translation of the bible. But now it seems to me that their position

(on this particular issue) is not totally without foundation: the King

James just *sounds* more powerful than the more modern versions, it

*sounds* like the Word of God. I have been told by people who know that,

when read in Hebrew, the Old Testament does have this powerful rhetorical

quality to it. Why is it, exactly, that "Yea though I walk through the

valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me"

sound so much better than "Even though I walk thru the valley of the

shadow of death, I will not fear evil, because You are with me"? After

all, they *mean* the same thing, don't they?

 

Ditto for the Koran. After reading it in English, I am unable to see why

anyone should ever have been inspired by this book. But I am told that

when read in Arabic, it's some of the most powerful poetry there is....

 

And jokes: how is that someone (e.g., me) can tell a joke and it falls

completely flat, yet someone else can tell it, using the *exact same*

words, and get a big laugh? Timing.... And fianlly back to music. Music

is *nothing but* rhythm and tempo (and melody, sometimes). It doesn't

need words at all to sound profound or exciting.

 

So for texts,

it's all a matter of how much relative weight one wishes to give to

rhetorical force on the one hand, and semantic meaning on the other, in

the total meaning of a work. Back to JK: in OTR, did any of the characters

really *do* anything all that special? A little hitchiking, a few odd

jobs, a few parties, some fast driving, a fast-talking friend who

might appear merely irritating--nothing that hadn't been done

plenty of times before. Certainly nothing that seems capable of inspiring

an entire generation to jump up and hit the road. Nevertheless, it did

inspire. How? It seems to me that almost all the energy and drive of

OTR comes from the rhythm and tempo of the prose. Its infectious

excitement come mainly from the *way* the story is told, not from what

they actually *did* in the book.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:56:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Techniques (was Re: method and meaning

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>

> >>

> >Plot is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,

> Absalom, Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion

> each chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each

> character about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin

> Compson what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on

> this but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not

> the plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or

> non-linear so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

 

Here, again, I'm shackled a bit from having absolutely no background in

literature per se.  But the suggestion here and several of the other

suggestions elsewhere lead me to believe that (consistent with my

melting pot theme -- i don't know if that post got out i can't find my

copy at any rate) is that a weaving of various notions of method and

various accepted and less than accepted forms of (for lack of a better

word) "style" seem important to the notions of where the novel is or

might be moving.  It seems that Kerouac tried this and viewed from the

perspective of the larger Legend perhaps had some success (sufficient

that i've sent notes to my family that it's JK Xmas for me and all i

want is Kerouac Xmas presents).  I think that WSB may become the most

noted of the Beat novelists in time.  It seems important -- from my

point of view -- that the focus of his writings shift somewhat from the

fascination with Naked Lunch (which is definitely fascinating) to more

energy spent on the later writings -- including the preface to Queer --

the later trilogy, My Education, and other less acclaimed works.

Sometimes it seems to me that the fascination with method in Naked Lunch

(and this has been true for me I know) is so involved in notions of

method that the rest is easily forgotten.  I recall that my first

reaction to WSB's writings (having heard the LP of Breakthrough in the

Grey Room) was to randomly underline in his books and just read the

cut-ups.  This limitation of my view of his notions of technique led me

to miss so much in my first run through his works.  As for the earlier

writings, it seems to me that the movements he takes with language are

important -- and are far more than just cut-ups.  The reactions perhaps

ARE similar to what Diane suggested for Finnegan's Wake.

Incomprehensible writings.  And perhaps it will take something like

Joseph Campbell and co.'s Skeleton Key to Naked Lunch and cousins for

these works to be comprehended sufficiently to be ultimately appreciated

in terms of such matters as "cannonization".

        Now my mind wanders some more back to the questions of plot in Paul's

post and methods in general and connecting this all to the heart of the

Beat Generation listserve.  In terms of method, of writing techniques,

my hunch is that the methods have been discussed in some respects

individually, but i was wondering about the possibility of accumulating

thoughts on the techniques of the various Beat Writers -- beginning with

the core and moving on to the broader Rinaldoan list to try and get a

sense of the depth and complexity of Beat Method.  Such a notion would

probably be best served by attempting in the beginning to be as

distinguishing as possible between various Beat styles -- even from

alterations in style from one book to another by the same Beat writer --

and then after the breadth is seen, perhaps the possibilites of finding

the connections in Beat technique may be more easily accessible -- a

simple forest and trees notion i suppose.

 

Where does one start?  Perhaps with the beginnings of Queer as it has

been mentioned several times of late.

 

Any takers?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:58:01 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The highway's calling....

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Marlene Giraud wrote:

>

> Dear friends,

> well, i'm off this weekend and i'm thrilled about it. just thought i'd let

> the list know how happy i am to be hitting the pavement in just a few hours.

> my sister and i are driving up to pensacola for the weekend. it should be a

> real good time. just wanted to let you all know in case anyone would need me.

> BTW, Marie, the money's in the mail, and Gerry, the t-shirts arrived safe and

> sound. I love them! Okay, have a wondeful weekend kiddos. Take it easy,

> ~~Marlene

 

Any good road stories?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 



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