=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:39:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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zach, being a part of the newest "alternative" music scene, i have to agree

with you on some points:  i do agree that genres of electronica like house

and trance are genres without very much intellectual backing...they are,

like you said, ways to dance your ass off, usually under the influence of

psychedelics like E and acid...but, with the new sound coming from the UK

in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,

i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"

music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...take for instance

LTJ Bukem...don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's on the front

lines of the drum 'n' bass explosion outta the UK...jungle is based on jazz

samples and jazz breakbeats...as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk

above as any jazz...to me it takes someone as creative as a Charlie Parker

or John Coltrane to piece together various and sundry parts of a recording

and make it as beautiful as Bukem can...

 

The Prodigy?  they suck...in my opinion, anyway.

 

Ryan Stonecipher

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:47:14 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Bukowski

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Ryan,

  Herd a seadee kald "Bukowski", terned mee ontoo hiz ztuf.  Hee red sum ov

hiz poettree two uh rowdee crowd, ckepd thretnin themm, zgreat.  _Post

Office_ z thferst novl eiv red fizz.

 

                                                       James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:46:22 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

 

i agree too... SF's had a huge renaissance of the 50's/60's head space.  JK

and AG are huge here right now, drug culture more prominent, tons of head

shops, bhuddist, metaphysical shops.... not that any of this ever disappears

completely from SF - it's part of the natural outlook for the City, thank

god...  but there has been a rather strong proliferation of such things here.

some of is is too gentrified and pseudo-cool...  but there's a lot more of the

real thing now than there was during the deathly conservative Reagan years.

Haight St. is much more heavily populated than it was then, too.

 

Last year deYoung Museum did a wonderful Beat Generation exhibit, MOMA

held/Yerba Buena Gardens held Beat symposia and poetry and, as well as prose,

readings have multiplied a good deal.

 

Michael, what's your URL?

 

ciao,

sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Stutz

Sent:   Thursday, July 17, 1997 10:05 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: welcome to the ninties, again

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:

 

> in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he

> said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do

> everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine

> inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe

> everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want

> to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious

> connection later.

 

yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's

addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."

 

 

> so all i'm really saying is that we are

> experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to

> stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late

> eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy

 

yeah agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site

if "indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.

 

m

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:51:03 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Michael Stutz wrote:

>

> yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's

> addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."

>

boy you hit a memory bank.

a gang of pranksters head to Lollapalllllooooooossssssaaaa outside

Chicago somewhere with a big EARTH thing on it.  Became symbolic later.

Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the

music took me.  The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through

the crowds.  The sounds flow over me in my memory.  I recall dancing

like some kind of Druid prodigy until collapsing, blowing bubbles on the

lawn, another round of crazed ritual body movements, another collapse.

i lay on the ground not moving.  I stared at the sky searching for the

farthest star.  I remember a band named Jane's Addiction i'd never heard

of (i was just going along with the youngsters) coming on and beginning

to play music with such incredible FORCE.  I left.  I would not be

surprised if i was on that farthest star.  The next thing i remember the

show is over the crowds are filing away and my friends are circled

around me and my old old friend Pioneer is rubbing my shoulder saying

David are you Okay.  I turned my head toward him and smiled a smile that

said where i'd been.  He grinned.  We headed for the parking lot.  I'd

made a tape for the trip thank goodness cause the parking lot was a

disaster.  We sat in the minivan.  First Robert Johnson sang

Crossroads.  Second Eric Clapton sang Crossroads.  I smiled.  It was

nice to be home.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:03:03 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@softdisk.com>

In-Reply-To:  <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:

 

>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is

>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz

>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you

>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about

>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the

>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance

>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a

>joke amongst those >who actually do.

 

i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.

...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,

with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his

music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,

clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love

this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an

example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're

right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only

problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,

the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have

been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for

writin' to...

It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to

Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of

those and hear roots.

 

babbling off topic once again...

 

-z

 

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:01:10 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Sexuality

 

ok, here's my two cents...

 

mostly i think the sexuality issue is unimportant except where it perhaps

gives insight to actions, thoughts, references in the books.

 

that being said, i think that what we have here in JK, perhaps NC, too, is a

true lover.  JK fell in love with NC.  doesn't really matter if they had sex

or not.  what matters is what they meant to each other.  their sexual

orientation, from what i can gather, was mainly het.  but way beyond that was

an ability to truly fall in love.  it was one of the things that really sent

me in OTR - this paean of love from one man to another... something men are

extremely reticent about, most of the time.  it blew me away and i thought it

was beautiful.  regardless of sexuality or any of the other dynamics in the

JK/NC/AG relationships... there was real love at one point.  i think that's a

rare and gorgeous thing and even rarer in print.

 

'nuff said.

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:07:50 -0400

Reply-To:     Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      NBR...jane's addiction

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Jane'sAddiction are getting back together, starting a tour Oct. 25th in San

Francisco, for those innarested....

 

-z

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:11:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music

 

i was too, in a way...didn't get my thoughts across...you are right that

raves are mindless dance the night away affairs...in no way related to the

jazz sessions at Birdland or places like taht in the 50's...but, there's a

club here in town...a coffee house that has a dnb DJ that spins on

weekends...very cool...go, drink coffee, chat amongst yrselves...that i can

compare to those sessions...but i guess taht is the exception, not the

rule...

 

ryan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:41:45 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

 

WSB be thanked - but John Cage is probably the heaviest influence in that

genre...

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Zach Hoon

Sent:   Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:03 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

 

ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:

 

>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is

>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz

>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you

>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about

>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the

>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance

>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a

>joke amongst those >who actually do.

 

i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.

...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,

with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his

music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,

clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love

this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an

example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're

right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only

problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,

the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have

been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for

writin' to...

It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to

Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of

those and hear roots.

 

babbling off topic once again...

 

-z

 

 

Markup/Graphic Design Team

Internet Concepts LLC

zach@netconcepts.com

(608) 285 6600

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:38:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: eye heart crane

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At 05:29 AM 7/12/97 UT, you wrote:

>did City Lights, even tho da man already tole me they ain't  publishin it no

>more, just in case... checked out the used books section, too.

>

>most beat stuff is hard to come by in used book stores round here cuz it's

>either not there cuz folks don't wanna part wid it or cuz it gets snatched up

>PDQ.  next thing is da library... haven't had a chance to do dat yet, man.

>tomorrow checkin at da great used bookstore a blcok from my apt.  maybe i'll

>get lucky, but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.

>

>ciao,

>sherri

>

 

 

hrm, what book are you looking for? ;>

 

i live in the bay area (recent transplant) and when *i* meandered up

through china town, eating at the chinese resaturant right down the street

from city lights (did you get a peak at the african/antique gallery there,

incredible!) and walked through city lights hallowed rooms and up the

stairs to the poetry room and walked along touching the books ever so

gently with my fingertips, i just wanted to sit down and breathe in all

history and never leave. my ex-bf unfortunately was downstairs and doing

his 'you and your damn who-ha books', could never understand why i fall in

love with authors like buk and burroughs.

 

*sigh*

 

we really should have a bay area beat-l party at one point.

 

lisa

--

 

Lisa M. Rabey

Simunye Design

http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye

---------------------------------

words...1000's of words...wrapped together like wire

how easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all

I can show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:29:15 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Friendship

 

An interesting article:  Dardess, George. "The Delicate Dynamics of Friendship

: A Reconsideration of Kerouac's OTR."  American Literature, vol. 46 (1974), 20

0-206.  Reprinted in OTR: Text & Criticism (Viking).

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:28:31 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33CE5B87.6024@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the

> music took me.  The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through

> the crowds.  The sounds flow over me in my memory.

 

summer of '91, first lolla 6 years ago (this year's one is in town tomorrow

i think). man that was a great show. i was puking when the butthole surfers

were on but by the time nin were getting off i was sober enough to stand up.

the next year's one was a mess but snuck in at 95 for sonic youth; they were

right on and it was one of the best shows i've ever seen.

 

sorry no beat content on this one.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <v03007802aff3b822162f@[206.190.9.125]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:

 

> but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's

> not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...

 

i don't think so; i think it's just gotten very obscure. but definitely out

there -- this decade has produced innumerable zines (and even some good

ones) + a constant outpouring of lit on the net (newsgroups, lists, the web

etc). it's out there in a major way -- it's just no getting published by

madison avenue. fuck them anyway.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:04:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

 

> but, with the new sound coming from the UK

> in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,

> i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"

> music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...

[snip]

> as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk above as any jazz...

 

this to me is where the slint/tortoise postrock scene is at. not even

neojazz, not at all, but they've got enough similarities here to be like

this. also the dronier side of indie rock: fsa, jessamine, labradford, etc

etc that whole huge terrastock drone rock scene. none of these to me are

like "modern jazz" or any of that, but in their own way each are fulfilling

certain things talked about here. i guess what i'm trying to say is that

what the hype machine is currently calling 'electronica' isn't the only new

music on the block...generically all of it can be called rock (but yeah this

is where the holy wars start between some of the dance music types vs. the

rock types), but generically... also a lot of early-mid 90s house music was

great to chill out to (still is).

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:00:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Tread37@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

 

in response to david r,

 

i am curious about this only for the reason of better understanding all of

the work they wrote and the background behind it.  i am far from a voyeur,

and do not have any strange sexual obessions with the three, so you can

assauge your fears.

 

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

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As long as we're on the topic of sexuality for a moment, who is H.P. in

AG's poem, Transcription of Organ Music?

 

"I remember when I first got laid, H.P. graciously took my cherry.  I sat

on the docks of Provincetown, age 23, joyful, elevated in hope with the

Father, the door to the womb was open to admit me if I wished to enter."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:18:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Post Office

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

red

> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

>   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

>   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

>

>                                             James M.

> Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

 

        Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

 

        It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

 

        -Bill

 

[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

|"A fractal is by definition a set for which the Hausdorff Besicovitch

| dimension strictly exceeds the topological dimension."

|

|                      -- Mandelbrot, "The Fractal Geometry of Nature"

[---  ICQ UIN = 188335  --|--  PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:42:23 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      VOC Pathos

 

Pg 90, Penguin 1993 edition:

 

"America, the word, the sound is the sound of my unhappiness..... It is where

Cody Pomeray learned that people aren't good.... America made bones of a young

boy's face adn took dark paints and made hollows around his eyes, and made his

cheeks sink in pallid waste and grew furrows on a marble front...  America's a

lonely crockashit." (Underlining is mine - what poetry...)

 

here it is: Cody and America being interchangeable in a sense...  the demise

of America is the downfall of Cody and vice versa.  JK refers to the heart

reappearing when all the salesmen die... a direct comment on the effect of

materialism on the American dream and on the loss of youth, freedom,

happiness.  heartbreaking....

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:57:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:10 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:

>

><<  at Gable looking at Marilyn >>

>Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to

>freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird

>portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor

>that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make

>the roping scenes.

>CP

>

>

Hey,

 

Load of crap.  Gabel died within a week after the movie wrapped in 1961.  Monroe

died in August, 1962, more than a year later, a suicide.  Eli Wallach is still

alive.  Thelma Ritter lived on until the late sixties.  John Huston, the

director,

died in the late 80s.  Arthur Miller, the screenwriter, still lives.  Sure we've

had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.  Oh,

yes, Monty Clift died of a heart attack in 1965.  The film was released in 1961.

Huston supposedly pushed Gable hard on the Mustang capture scenes, physically,

I mean, but that's all I remember from this film. Thelma Ritter was in The

Incident in 1967.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:00:00 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 11:45:14 EDT, you write:

 

<< . at least none of my fucking business. >>

Tempting. But I can't quite gosssip in cyberspace. No inuendos. And gossip

sometimes is sometimes physical contact in drag.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:02:02 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: rwallner@CapAccess.org

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:06 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >

>> Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,

>> and had been lovers, at least at times.  isn't it possible

>> homosexuality played a role in their rift?

>>

>> Mike Rice

>> mrice@centuryinter.net

>

>Cassady and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to

>Cassady (hell he wrote two books about him!)  But he was hetero in the

>extreme from what I've read.

>

>

 

In his book Palimpsest, Vidal claims to have screwed Kerouac himself, in

the late 40s, after a night at the San Remo Gay Bar in NYC.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:05:41 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: cuputs

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 12:49:54 EDT, you write:

 

<<  but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert

 words and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the

 paper? (I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like

 tape transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)

  >>

 

The generic term used to be "Experimental Prose."  What if it works?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:14:06 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 14:39:46 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Some in this group from

 Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american

 hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser. >>

 

Do they read the Newmoralityspeak York Times  up there too?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:15:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:31 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>It is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately

>interefered with Jack's relationships with his beat friends.  She

>routinely opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and

>apparently took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she

>thought was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal

>for similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from

>reading the letters)

>

>It is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less

>completely and filter much of what he knew of his old friends.  She

>probably would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to

>not communicate with them.

>

>RJW

>

>

When Kerouac died in Florida, he was living with a woman, who, in effect

was his surrogate mother, as his mother had died in Lowell some years

earlier.  An early 70s Esquire article on the last days of Jack makes it

clear Jack was very attached to his Mom.  These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

1957 when OTR was published.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:32:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Tread37@aol.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

As I have written earlier, Vidal claims to have had Kerouac

after a night at the San Remo, a 40s NYC gay bar.  But I should

mention something I noticed about Vidal's autobio.  Every strong

story and assertion about aberrant or non mainstream  sexual

behavior, was invariably about someone who was already dead.  In

other words, the biographee could not complain from the grave.

 

For instance, Gore has Jacqui Bouvier getting her first piece in

Paris from a friend of Gore's.  Gore was not happy about his half-

sister's shunning of him after 1962.  Could he be telling rancid

tails about her to get even?  Sure he could have.

 

Still, what Gore said about all these people, even if they are dead,

could be interpreted as just Vidal holding his water until the

biographees were decently dead, before letting fly with what he knew.

Can you imagine what a job is going to be done on him once he is

dead?

 

Mike Rice

mrice@centuryinter.net

 

At 01:13 AM 7/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>******************************************************************************

>********************

>could some one please help me out here?  i am very curious to figure out the

>whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...

>

>it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual

>relationship.

>

>     but what about jack?  did either neal or allen or both have homosexual

>relations with jack?

>                   if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?

>anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!

>

>satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,

>

>jenn

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:49:30 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Post Office

In-Reply-To:  <199701180520.AAA12035@buffnet4.buffnet.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:18 PM -0700 7/17/97, Bill Philibin wrote:

 

 

> >   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

> red

> > itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

> >   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

> >   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

> >

> >                                             James M.

> > Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

>

>         Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

>

>         It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

 

 

I suggest that it is not poetry either.  nope.  it's duende.  beyond

language.  and beyond control

 

 

>

>         -Bill

 

 

((got a wild hare up my ass tonight, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:42 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

 

In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:

 

<< Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the

 lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>

 

Don't they have no necromancers out there?

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:52:41 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970718005617.1b17deca@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:57 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mike Rice wrote:

 

 

> Sure we've

> had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.

 

I'd like to see you prove it __wasn't__ aliens that killed em all.  and

them alive.  well, they be aliens too.

 

prove it.  rip it.

 

> Mike Rice

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:02 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity

In-Reply-To:  <970718024542_-1426464465@emout10.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:45 PM -0700 7/17/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

> In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:

>

> << Where the voyeurism overshadows the inter[net] in the other aspects of the

>  lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>

>

> Don't they have no necromancers out there?

 

Neuromancers, Charles.                  Neuromancers.  ((see R. Gibson

 

 

> C Plymell

 

Douglas

 

 

 

[[this joke is getting old fas  t

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:45:58 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: horseshit

 

 I insist it was horeshit.

C.P.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:48:26 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat

 

In a message dated 97-07-18 02:00:19 EDT, you write:

 

<< Load of crap. >>

Let's be accurate.  I insist it was horseshit!

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:55:12 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      tired dog tired haiku

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        O

        only

        4

        years

        span

        !

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo * a beet needs water *

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> 1957 when OTR was published.

>

> Mike Rice

 

not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has

lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality?  reading AG's biography now Dharma

Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK

and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very

close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in

AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two

brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!

 at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a

sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested

in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very

experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge

Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...

 

ryan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Lowell on Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been

recast

> as this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of

Jack as

> a drug abuser.

 

Who? When? Jack has not been been recast as an all-american hometown

hero. If anything, his substance abuse is still an active memory among

people in Lowell and a major obstacle to achieving the hometown

acceptance and recognition that a writer of his stature deserves. We

don't deny his substance abuse problems- we can't- but they are

certainly not something we care to celebrate or emphasize, and they

are not what he should be remembered for. Our objective is to

celebrate the art of Jack Kerouac and to promote the study and

enjoyment of his writing and his joyous approach to life. Come to

Lowell in October for the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! and

see for yourself how we want to think about Jack Kerouac.

 

Mark Hemenway

President, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:01:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Cody as America

 

Yes, Sheri, your comments right on target I think.  Cody is symbolic of

a failed American Dream crushed by materialism and what Allen Ginsberg

often referred to as "hard heartedness."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:38:01 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: horseshit

In-Reply-To:  <970718044557_444685482@emout19.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

<<running late for work>>

 

At 1:45 AM -0700 7/18/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

>  I insist it was horeshit.

 

Well, if you insist, then ok.

 

Norman Mailer in his early years picasso book, tells the story of how P got

in trouble with his family.  too many homosexual affairs, bad clothes and

attitude, not enough money brought in, etc. etc.  I've probably got the

reasons all wrong, now that I think about it.

 

Anyhow, to make amends with his family, Picasso goes to the local

whorehouse and sleeps with women that his father "knew".  It was a "family"

house.  And he probably made this visit over and over again until his

family was completely satisfied that Picasso had run all his wild hares out

of town.  Something like that.

 

The morale of the story involves returning to paris, smoking lots of hash,

and locking the girlfriend in the house (daily).  Ah, artists.

 

So ok.  It's horeshit.  but what are you gonna do with it now?  These

scatalogical poems/connotations always make me quesy.

 

 

 

> C.P.

 

Douglas

 

 

PS:  I might have been unsubscribed yesterday again at my work address.

More than likely the pipe was just clogged.  Eitherway, email me at

dkpenn@oees.com if you want to reach me during work hours M-F.

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:17 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Phor BillaFillabin

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>   Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_.  Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z

>red

>> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.

>>   _The Western Lands_ is neckst.

>>   Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.

>>

>>                                             James M.

>> Meye noz runz.  Eye doent.  ""

>

>       Is this supposed to be funny or cool?

>

>       It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.

>

>       -Bill

 

 

  Phunny?  Kool?  Kneether.  Hear, hav sum either.  Eim jest hookd onn

fonicks mie phrend.

  Dizgraze?  Ure thjudg.  Itz ure verdicked buht mie zentence.

  Uor kritizm ov uh righting ztyl, anne xperement, iz duelly notid buht

duzITT ad enythin two "a literary based list"?

  Evr red "Old Angel Midnight" blak Bilely?  Reely enjoied wut uad too zae

abowt _Post Office_.

  Hears sum add vice ure onher, iff yaint diginitt, ch ch chainge thachannell.

 

"I wasn't born with enough middle fingers."-M.M.

 

                                                     James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:16:42 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Date:          Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500

> Reply-to:      "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

> From:          "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>

> Subject:       Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

> To:            BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

> > ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> > and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> > people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> > Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> > relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> > a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> > 1957 when OTR was published.

> >

> > Mike Rice

>

> not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has

> lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality?  reading AG's biography now Dharma

> Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK

> and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very

> close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in

> AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two

> brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!

>  at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a

> sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested

> in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very

> experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge

> Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...

>

> ryan

>

>

ryan- right on!

and mike- try not to look through a telescopebecause eventually your

just going to run into the Truth again

cya~randy

"the simplest answer is the correct one"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:20:05 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Style

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Beatniks,

     You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill

Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill

has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to

set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me

that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I

am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I

to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt

the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

comments would be appreciated.

 

                                                James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:47:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Style

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

james/jimmy/jim/jimbo

dont worry about all of that - "you can offend some of the people some of

the time,  but you cant offend everyone all of the time"

(or something like that). - lincoln said that

"ill let you be in my dream if i can be in yrs" - bob dylan said that.

yr style is yr style. personally verbal gymnastics pique my interest, just

depends on where you take it i suppose.

yrs

derek

 

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, James William Marshall wrote:

 

>

> Beatniks,

>      You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill

> Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill

> has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to

> set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

> received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me

> that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I

> am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

> passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

> person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I

> to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt

> the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

> make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

> wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

> comments would be appreciated.

>

>                                                 James M.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:08:54 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

 

Mike:

 

In your post from 97-07-18 05:47:14 EDT, you write:

 

"....(Kerouac's) mother had died in Lowell some years earlier."

 

JK's mother, Gabrielle ("Memere"), was alive and living with JK and his wife,

Stella when he died in Florida in 1969.  She was ill and a semi-invalid by

then, but she outlived JK and died in 1972.  I certainly agree that Stella

was a "surrogate mother" to JK, trying to prevent him from drinking himself

to death, unsuccessfully, keeping fans from bothering him, etc.  They had

known each other since his childhood in Lowell, and when he was near the end

of the line he married her to take care of him and his mother, more a nurse

than a wife.  This I think was the only circumstance under which JK would

ever marry, he had a lifelong M.O. of getting out of or avoiding marriages,

and denied that he was his daughter Jan's father.  He was very conflicted and

tormented in this regard, yearning for security and looking up to those he

saw as being or trying to be settled (including Neal Cassady as he struggled

to be a family man with Carolyn and his children), but unable to ever happily

settle down himself.  I don't agree that JK, NC and AG "were all gay", only

AG among them was completely gay, although even he experimented with

heterosexuality during his pre-HOWL youth.  JK and NC both had occasional gay

sex, though not with each other that can be verified, but were straight most

of the time as far as their outward behavior.  The famously intense

friendship between JK and NC, I think, went beyond the bounds of what can be

categorized as gay/straight into the realm of mytholigization, an emotional

and mutually empathetic bond that went beyond sexuality, although that may

have been a partial, latent component, an underlying inspiration to be read

between the lines.  While definitely an important factor in understanding the

lives and work of the key Beat figures, I don't think sexuality is the only

explaination for or significance of OTR or VOC, which immortalized the

relationship of JK & NC, and elevated it to a level of art and myth even as

it faithfully transcribed it down to earth.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:01:16 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      John Coltrane.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"You know, I want to be a force for real good. In other words, I know that

there are bad forces, forces put here that bring suffering to others and

misery to the world, but I want to be the force which is truly good."

-- John Coltrane (from an interview by Frank Kofsky)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:13:36 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      A Love Supreme

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"God breathes through us so completely...

so gently we hardly feel it...yet,

it is our everything.

Thought waves - heat waves -

all vibrations - all paths lead to God.

The universe has many wonders.

ELATION - ELEGANCE - EXALTATION -

All from God.

Thank you God. Amen

 

 

-John Coltrane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:33 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Style

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12.20 18/07/97 -0700, James William Marshall wrote:

>Beatniks,

>comments would be appreciated.

>

>                                                James M.

>

 

        Stifling heat

        the people turn the head

        to the right & to the left

        like walkin'pigeons

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:24:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Style

Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

i personally cannot believe that someone is denying one man the right to =

experimentation - though i guess he's not denying you that, just =

disagreeing with it...my incredulity arises from the fact that we are on =

a BEAT mailing list...would there have been a "beat generation" (i hate =

that term, personally) without experimentation and leping the bounds of =

established literature?  would there have been a "Howl" or "On the =

Road"?  i think not...James, go on experimenting man, it's just the =

kinda breath of fresh air i like...

 

ryan

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   James William Marshall [SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]

Sent:   Friday, 18 July, 1997 2:20 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Style

 

Beatniks,

     You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of =

Bill

Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, =

Bill

has two l's right?).  Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned =

to

set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he

received my reply.  Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother =

me

that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit =

that I

am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a

passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this

person again.  This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or =

I

to him.  But he was left with the impression that I was trying to =

corrupt

the grammar of any youngsters on this list.  I really don't know what to

make of the whole scenario.  One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you

wanna write."  Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired =

of

this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions =

or

comments would be appreciated.

 

                                                James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:49:32 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Thanks and Questions

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

  First, I'd like to thank those who supported my experimentation.

  Second, I'd like to acknowledge the one comment made by Bill Gargan, that

this list is about Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg.  I'm not going to deny

that these guys were "beats" but who decided that the "beat movement" ended?

When did it end, why did it end, and what do we call WSB?  A postmodernist?

I don't believe that current "real literature" (whatever the hell that is

anyway) is all postmodern.  If there's a tension that's omnipresent on this

list it's the one I feel, and suspect that others feel, when somebody brings

up an author or artist or musician that the person believes is at least

"related" to the beat tradition.  Remember Lusha?  Anyway, my final question

stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no

sarcasm) is:  Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to

this list.  I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one

of the things that I like most about it.  There are no groups of writers,

influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've

found on this list anywhere else.  I hope that no one feels afraid to offer

a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.

 

                                                         James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:03:00 +0900

Reply-To:     rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject:      Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Morning, all.

 

I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music

sites/record companies... can anyone help?

 

Cheers,

 

Rastous

 

 

Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review

& 5UV

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm

 

For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:59 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Style

In-Reply-To:  <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of

> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)."  Any suggestions or

> comments would be appreciated.

>

 

yep, I see you've met God too.  Well, don't let it ruin yer day.  That's my

advice.  Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments

(as a result)??  Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,

Kerouac, or Ginsberg?

 

>                                                 James M.

 

dimple pox

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:01:20 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike,

 

I have to throw my own vote with the others who find this amazingly

oversimple.  Jack and Neal certainly were not exclusively heterosexual,

but they were clearly principally straight men who had a great

friendship.  That does happen.  Not all American buddy stories have to

be seen as repressed faggotry.  And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible

witness anyway.  I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any

now dead popes.  It would suit his style.

 

I disagree with my friend David that this shouldn't be of interest to

us, mostly because the principals made a point of being public with

their behavior.

 

Mike Rice wrote:

 

  These guys, Kerouac, Cassady

> and Ginsburg, were all gay.  The reason it is so difficult for a lot of

> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.

> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the

> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).  Read it again, its

> a love story about these two.  Noone knew that except the insiders in

> 1957 when OTR was published.

>

> Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      New Styles

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>yep, I see you've met God too.  Well, don't let it ruin yer day.  That's my

>advice.  Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments

>(as a result)??  Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,

>Kerouac, or Ginsberg?

>

>dimple pox

 

Mr. Pox,

  I'm always experimenting but nothing new has arisen from this incident

(it's only served to reinforce my notion of how narrow-minded so many "gods"

are).

  I'm currently editing / rewriting a novel that's probably the most

conventional (anti-postmodern) piece that I've written.  It has some beat

related themes and elements:  a lot of Burroughs-like, organic metaphors, a

Kerouac-Cassady type relationship, a frantic, permadrunk race for peace,

etc...  I think this will be the manuscript that I'll start sending out once

I've made a bit more progress.  The few professors that I've shown it to

have encouraged me to.  I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I

knew when the plane leaves.

 

                                                       James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:38:27 -0700

Reply-To:     dumo13@EROLS.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Jack's Sexuality

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hello List!

 

Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality.  The

bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's

irrelevant (what his sexuality was).  I am glad that a discussion on his

sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing aspect

of Jack Kerouac to me.  I think that if you look at Jack from the

'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he was

gay or not, he was a great writer."  But I REALLY think there's more to

it.  You just can't say that.  In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the very

catalist for everything.  No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION ANGELS

(which I have to say is my favorite JK novel).  Read sections about when

Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San Fran

and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.  The

sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack

apart.  It was almost like he could never be true to himself.  His strong

catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith.  In his

heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to his

family he had to remain catholic.  Jack as a beat didn't care if he was

gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter.  Love and Kicks

mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he

couldn't let himself go.  Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed

like he was trying to live a lie.  That's a pretty strong statement, I

know.  He's one of my heros but it's true.  He could never have both

worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him.  Someone said something

about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at

the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself.  Jack tried to

run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going for

him.  If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing.  I believe he knew

that.  Just like with Neal.  Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it

seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving

giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.

ON THE ROAD is a romance!  It's a story of unrequited love.  Neal may

have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.  Plain and simple.  My best

friend is the same way.  I love him, but he is a dick.  He's a dick to me

and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.  Jack

couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.

 

Thanks.

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:42:51 -0600

Reply-To:     Manny <manny@HOME.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Manny <manny@HOME.NET>

Subject:      Just seeing if this works right  =)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hello list...

So far I'm enjoying the variety of topics discussed. =)

I'm just now seeing if my mail is working properly. Thank you.

                        Amanda

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:27 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: New Styles

In-Reply-To:  <199707190524.WAA17744@freya.van.hookup.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:24 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I

> knew when the plane leaves.

 

found this in the bathroom tonight <<ahem>>:

 

 

>>

 

        Of his work he said: "I am not so much interested in documentation,

but would like to use the means of the steadily expanding language of my

medium to express my impressions of the individual."  (Arnold Newman)

 

>>

 

kinda nice, huh?  Fits in nice with the joyce, girlfriend, surface, and

drug art issues I've been dealing with.  And besides, if you miss the plane

-- take the train.  of  <<ahem>> the train of thawout.

 

 

>

>                                                        James M.

                                                        = junior mint

 

 

demi pairs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:34:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970719100300.006b3c00@light.iinet.net.au>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Rastous The Reviewer wrote:

 

> I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music

> sites/record companies... can anyone help?

>

 

At the University of Virginia, there's an online copy of the recent issue

of the Journal of Post-Modernism or Post-Modern Studies or something like

that.  I believe it was someone who's on the list (can't remember who but

I know this is where I heard about it) did a fairly good review of the CD.

Go to the American Studies site.  The direct url (unless its

changed-current issues stay up only til it gets printed) is

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:29:08 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      female (patti smith)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

the title of the poem is "FEMALE" and is on page 44 of  SEVENTH HEAVEN. it

begins with a quote from GENET: "To escape from horror bury yourself in it."

 

female. feel male. Ever since I felt the need to

choose I'd choose male. I felt boy rythums when I

was in knee pants. So I stayed in pants.

I sobbed when I had to use the public ladies

room. My undergarments made me blush.

Every feminine gesture I affected from my mother

humiliated me.

 

I ran around with a pack of wolves. I puked on every

pinafore. Growing breasts was a nightmare. In agner

I cut off my hair and knelt glassy eyed before

god. I begged him to place me in my own barbaric race.

The male race. The race of my choice.

 

In answer he injected me with all the characteristics

of my gender. sultry. languid. wanton. dip into

summer skirts. go down with a narrow hipped boy

behind a bowling alley. bleed. come. fill my womb.

 

the misfit massacres the mustang pony just to feel

the soft rise of marilyn monroe against his chest.

 

bloated. pregnant. I crawl thru the sand. like a

lame dog. like a crab. pull my fat baby belly to

the sea. pure edge. pull my hair out by the roots.

roll and drag and claw like a bitch. like a bitch.

like a bitch.

 

67.april   copyright patti smith

 

 

-=-=-=-

props to phillip who typed all of this

cribbed from the patti-smith list

 

And yeah, who hasn't sucked some dick?

 

dickless

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:38:39 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody

In-Reply-To:  <33D03C10.234F@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 21.01 18/07/97 -0700, James Stauffer writes:

[i snip for brevity]

> And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible

>witness anyway.  I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any

>now dead popes.  It would suit his style.

>...

 

james & amici beati,

last night, Vidal interviewed by domestic italian TV Rai Corporation

in Rome, about sexuality & arts & artists, asserted that's right alot

of artists (included writers ie. Proust) are/was not eterosex,

but this is have nothing to do with creativity, Vidal asserted

"sex is not related with creativity but anyone has a feminine-self",

he was moderate & amiable, (however not iconoclast),

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Jack's Sexuality

Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Chris Dumond wrote:

>

> Hello List!

>

> Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality.  The

> bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's

> irrelevant (what his sexuality was).  I am glad that a discussion on

> his

> sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing

> aspect

> of Jack Kerouac to me.  I think that if you look at Jack from the

> 'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he

> was

> gay or not, he was a great writer."  But I REALLY think there's more

> to

> it.  You just can't say that.  In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the

> very

> catalist for everything.  No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION

> ANGELS

> (which I have to say is my favorite JK novel).  Read sections about

> when

> Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San

> Fran

> and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.

> The

> sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack

> apart.  It was almost like he could never be true to himself.  His

> strong

> catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith.  In

> his

> heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to

> his

> family he had to remain catholic.  Jack as a beat didn't care if he

> was

> gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter.  Love and Kicks

> mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he

> couldn't let himself go.  Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed

> like he was trying to live a lie.  That's a pretty strong statement, I

> know.  He's one of my heros but it's true.  He could never have both

> worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him.  Someone said something

> about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at

> the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself.  Jack tried

> to

> run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going

> for

> him.  If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing.  I believe he

> knew

> that.  Just like with Neal.  Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it

> seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving

> giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.

> ON THE ROAD is a romance!  It's a story of unrequited love.  Neal may

> have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.  Plain and simple.  My best

> friend is the same way.  I love him, but he is a dick.  He's a dick to

> me

> and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.

> Jack

> couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.

>

> Thanks.

> Chris

 

Chris:

 

This may draw down howls upon my head, but there is something about male

nature that leads to these relationships.  The stereotypes are:

 

A woman will not maintain a relationship with a woman who "betrays" her.

 

A man will have a "fight" with the asshole, they then go drink a beer,

and end up better friends than before.

 

A woman, on the other hand, will put up with tons of crap from a man,

that she would never tolerate from another woman, because she knows she

can change him.

 

A man, will say outwardly that a woman is free to act as she cares, but

if she treats him poorly like his male friend did, he will never forgive

her, when he would his friend.  Further, he will become emotionally

cruel to her.

 

These are double standards that run through the sexes.  I do not intend

them to be RULES, just generalities that are the tendencies of behavior

by the two sexes.  I do not place a value on them and say one is better

than the other.  Just that the basic approach is different.

 

Last night I arrived home from work exhausted.  My wife came to me while

I was eating and reading the newspaper and wanted to talk.  Later when I

was rested, I sought her out to apologize and make myself available.

She would not listen and said everything had to be on MY TERMS. I tried

to point out to her that perhaps she could pick a better time than

interrupting my meal and when she knew I was tired.

 

We did not communicate.  Funny in a way.

 

Peace

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:47:39 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      JK Sexuality/Sexism

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33D0D784.F9A8F732@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Actually, maybe Jack was always homosexual and spent his life denying

it.  This would explain his attitudes and actions throughout his life

towards women.  Which is to say that, bluntly speaking, Jack Kerouac was

as sexist as they come.  He had little use for women other than sleeping

with them.

 

Even though some of his best works were about women he was in love with

(i.e. Subterraneans, Maggie Cassidy) he basically ran from every

relationshiop he ever had with a female other than his mother, and later

his "surrogate mother" (last wife stella)  He left one of his wives to

raise a child, whom he knew full well was his daughter, in poverty.

Psychologically I dont think Jack could accept either long term

relationships with females or parenthood.  If he was really a repressed

homosexual, this would explain some of these attitudes.

 

I think Jack's sexist nature prevented him from being able to bond with

females the way he did with males.  He could live with women and have sex

with them, but it seems like he was incapable of having true intellectual

relationships with women.  His "intellectual" affairs were with Allen

Ginsberg, Neal Cassady, Lucien Carr .etc   Jack did, however, maintain a

long correspondence relationship with Carolyn Cassady...I've read they

were in contact long after Jack and Neal's friendship had ended.

 

It is ironic actually therefore that Jack Kerouac's work, the beat ethic and

the idea of "experiencing" life without regard to societal opinions or

barriers, has been an inspiration to generations of female writers.  In

Jack's lifetime, he was repressed for wanting to be his own person in

much the same way women were repressed for years from trying to have

their own lives.

 

Not only was Jack's daughter Jan a writer, but his first biographer and

cataloguer of his works was the author Ann Charters.  There are many many

female writers who took up pen because of Jack Kerouac.  Perhaps he was a

feminist and just never realized it?

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:44:30 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thanks and Questions

Comments: To: dv8@mail.netshop.net

 

In a message dated 97-07-19 10:59:47 EDT, you write:

 

<<   Remember Lusha?  Anyway, my final question

 stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no

 sarcasm) is:  Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to

 this list.  I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one

 of the things that I like most about it.  There are no groups of writers,

 influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've

 found on this list anywhere else.  I hope that no one feels afraid to offer

 a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.

  >>

Where's her writing?

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:43:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Tread37@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use

for women" other than sex:

 

i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist.  i think that jack

was in love with the human race.  he loved people, no matter what gender.  i

do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,

but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men.  this does not

mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides

carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression.  for some

reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female

relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual.  i think, if

anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his

love was universal and had no gender limits.

 

sing

     dance

            be merry,

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:21:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Alex,

        Thanks very much Alex for pointing me/us to Robert Fox's review at

the University of Virginia of "kicks joy darkness". I recommend it to anyone

with an interest in the Beats / music / spoken word. Anyone who can bring up

"Jazz Canto" in passing has got my vote! Address below for those who haven't

been there yet.

 

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.

 

        An interesting cyber-journal for several reasons. Check their index

of other articles.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:44:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      I give up on VOC

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, I have stuck with VOC as long as I could.  I got past the football

game and into the meeting of the girls at the house.  But, I just do not

have it in my heart to continue.  I am going to pick up Portrait of an

Artist as a Young Man and read Joyce for a while.

 

A couple of notes.  On the tapes.  What would it sound like if someone

recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them?  I can think of

very few that I would want to see in print.  So in reading that portion

of the book, you have to let reality creep in and dispel your

expectations.

 

Second, I picked up in my local library a book by Warren French, The San

Francisco Poetry Renaissance 1955-1960.  I have no idea on the quality

of the book.  But in the Forward, the author makes some comments that

harken back to our past discussion of Eliot, Ginsberg and Whitman:

 

"       It should be apparent that I agree with the early (1957) judgment of

William Hogan ... that HOWL was the "most significant long poem to be

published in this country since World War II."  It is taking its place

beside Walt Whitman's closely related "Song of Myself," which reached

the public first exactly a century earlier (1855), and T.S. Eliot's The

Waste Land, which though antipodal in many respects shares Ginsberg's

view of the tragic consequences of a materialistic, mechanized,

depersonalized culture and his hopes of transcending it.

 

"       Nothing else that the beats--of any poets since -- have written

matches Ginsberg's inspirational breakthrough, but like Leaves of Grass

and The Waste Land, Howl is not a monument that stands in splendid

isolation.  It generated the ferment that followed--the San Francisco

Poetry Renaissance--and it is to tell that story, which has often been

lost or ignored, that I have written this book."

 

I know nothing of the book or the author, but it seems to sum up what I

had read this list trying to say, and that is how Whitman, Eliot and

Ginsberg fit together and it seems to me that a possible conclusion is

that these three are the giants upon which true American poetry rests

for now.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:18:55 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Beat the NEA

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Bay Area Beat-L folks should check today's Sunday Examiner with an

excellent article on defunding the NEA by filmaker Bruce Conner.  It

doesn't yet appear on the Gate web page so I'll post the entire thing

tomorrow when it appears.  In essence Conner's stance echoes C.

Plymell's.

 

"I have a modes proposal.  The federal government should get out of the

arts entirely.  Go further than simply dropping an unpopular NEA.  No

more funding for public monuments, no more presidential portraits, no

more glamorous embellisment of the abattoirs of government . . .These

are invigorating times now that art has again been deemed dangerous and

the false art market boom of the 1980's, patterned after the classic

Pyramid Scheme Fraud, has cleared out a lot of the money-changers.  Art

is no longer a protected national park where artists can make a mess and

call the patrons dirty names while still expecting to be warmly

supported like difficult children that need more love than anyone can

give. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:46 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Bay Area Beat-L Party

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Suggestions have been floated regarding a get together for SF Bay Area

Beat-L folks.

 

I am willing to volunteer my humble pad for such a party or listen to

suggestions for a public venue.  I know you're out there folks, Leon,

Sherri, Lisa, Attilla (if he's back), Jerry Cimino (if he's still

listening) and others whose locale I don't know or who have eluded my

beclouded Sunday morning brain.

 

Anyone interested please backchannel me.  Out of the area folks who

might be in SF in August let me know.  A public venue would work, but

someone's place, with a plugged in computer would allow cyberjamming in

the mode of the Plymell/Wilson reunion or the Lawrence Beat Hotel posts.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:06:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Warren French's book

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, while it is not well written, but then again I am not sure you can

have a heavily edited and coherent text describing poetry in SF from

1955-60 in 112 pages, I like this book.  French did his homework and a

substantial amount of it.  He is very sympathetic to the Beat poets, but

does not overtly take their side.

 

BTW, French retired from Indiana University in 1986.  He contributed

books on J.D. Salinger (1988) and Kerouac (1986) to the Twayne's United

States Authors Series.  When this book was published, 1991, he was

working on a 2 volume critical biography of John Steinbeck.

 

Anyway, he brought out a point that I believe, at least partially ties

back to the discussion on Eliot.  On page 39 he is discussing an article

JK wrote for The Chicago Review called "The Origions of Joy in Poetry"

and says that Jack, "saw the renaissance works as street poetry also,

but he emphasized their being 'a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy poetry ...

diametrically opposed to the Eliot shot.' Both these commentators

(Ferlinghetti and Kerouac) championed populist views of poetry; but the

difference between them [James, I feel you reading this with an

approving eye] suggests one reason why Ferlinghetti held himself as a

poet somewhat apart from the beats he sponsered.  His (Ferlinghetti's)

was essentially a sociopolitical view of poetry that emphasized the

words of the song, while Kerouac's introspective view focused on the

singer (he admitted, for example, that 'in spite of the dry rules

[Eliot] set down his poetry itself is sublime').  The prevalence of

Kerouac's view among other poets and young audiences is one reason the

beats, like the fauves, never became an organized movement seeking to

displace an Establishment and instead remained a group of outsiders

transiently banded together."

 

I feel this paragraph highlites several points.  One, is the difference

between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg.  He did not

write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.

He is the lyrics only.  They are the singer.

 

Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,

the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is

sublime.  I have begun rereading The Waste Land.  If I have  a comment,

it will come later.  But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he

stood for, his poetry is sublime.

 

Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they

displace the establishment.  They may have penetrated the fortress based

upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel.  It remains in

place today.

 

A good, but scholarly book.  I will make one more post on some comments

he had earlier in the book.  Sorry if I am doing your homework for you.

Charles, I hope you do not disapprove!

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:18:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Good beginning

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The beginning of the book on the SF Poetry Renaissance begins with some

good analogies.  The parallels are drawn to the Fauvist painters and

uses Kerouac and Matisse on page 4.

 

        "... Matisse quitting the 'frustrating atmosphere' of Adolphe

Bougureau's class... . Exactly fifty years later, Kerouac quit the

hothouse life of coach Lou Little's Columbia University football team

when he realized he wanted to be Beethoven instead of an athlete.  In

1898, Matisse was asked to leave Moreau's old studio ... .  A

half-century later, in 1948, Kerouac after completing a traditional

family historical romance influenced by the work of Thomas Wolfe, took

his first cross-country trip with Neal Cassady, which inspired him to

begin work on an entirely new kind of spontaneous prose: the first

versions of the novel that would subsequently be published as On The

Road and that would take its final form in Visions of Cody."

 

I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here

has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to see

it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME

book.

 

The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting.  This analysis

may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the

earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book.  Here French ties the

whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild

Beasts."

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

In-Reply-To:  <33D2C6F3.6D78E417@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 7:18 PM -0700 7/20/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

 

 

> The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting.  This analysis

> may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the

> earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book.  Here French ties the

> whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild

> Beasts."

 

"word painting" interesting.

 

Matisse was the old man of the fauve movement, wasn't he.  Fauve, 'wild

beasts' being the pejoritive label for a bunch of artists concerned with

outrageous color.  somewhat post-impressionism, post-seurat, right?

 

Matisse went on to develop color throughout his life.  Always apposed to

Picasso who was associated with "form".  Matisse is well know for his

patterns as well.  A quote of his always sticks in my craw, that he wanted

to make art while siting in a chair, looking out a window.  A somewhat

passive happenstance, approach, I've always thought.

 

and later in life, Matisse, from bed/wheelchair, made some f'in fantastic

cutout works of art.  he began with store bought paper, then progress along

to ordering papers of certain colors and having his assistants help him cut

out the shapes.  Icarus (1947?) is one of my favorite paintings.

 

"word painting" interesting.

 

 

>

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

>

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:46:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      I'm back ...

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Seems pretty quiet around here ...

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:10:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: I'm back ...

Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Levi Asher wrote:

>

> Seems pretty quiet around here ...

>

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> |                                                    |

> |    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |     (3 years old and still running)                |

> |                                                    |

> |        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

> |          (a real book, like on paper)              |

> |             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

> |                                                    |

> |                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

> |                                                    |

> |                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

> |                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

> ------------------------------------------------------

Levi:

 

Glad to see you are back.  I was enjoying your comments when you left.

It seems to be TOO quite at the moment.  I am thinking that one of the

screwups last week still has email jammed up out there somewhere.

 

And I did get your site linked to a new page that I put up.  Sometime in

the near future, I am going to post a picture I took of Hal Norse.  I

want to clear it with Hal first.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here

> has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to see

> it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME

> book.

 

That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:

 

"But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for

almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he

had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.

He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his

sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he

decided to write another book, which has never been published [this was

in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with the

same main characters in about five hundred pages.  But called Visions of

Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence, as

a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments.  Visionary

moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section or

chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where

it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the

specific physical description of what was happening..."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:30:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

>

> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody

> here

> > has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.  It is interesting to

> see

> > it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the

> SAME

> > book.

>

> That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:

>

> "But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for

> almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he

> had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.

> He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his

> sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he

> decided to write another book, which has never been published [this

> was

> in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with

> the

> same main characters in about five hundred pages.  But called Visions

> of

> Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence,

> as

> a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments.  Visionary

> moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section

> or

> chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter

> where

> it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the

> specific physical description of what was happening..."

> DC

 

Diane:

 

You BEAT me to the idea that was festering in my mind.  In response to

Douglas' post about the painting aspect, I was going to post and say

that I believed that this is the essence of the book and what drove

Allen to get it published.  The fact that Allen saw and knew why and

what Jack wrote.  I find that I love finding the nuggets like Jack

talking about memories and Proust, but on the whole, it is a hard read

when I am doing it for an exercise.

 

The fact that I broke the spine and wore out the book on its first

reading testifies to the fashion in which I read it on first sitting.

Thanks for this post and the point, which I believe ties back to the

Impressionistic painting thought I have.  Allen saw this and that is why

he called it Jack's greatest work.  I find it more like Web and the Rock

and You Can't Go Home Again, an unfinished work.  I still feel that to

me, Dharma Bums is the best.

 

BUT, this is the most dangerous and adventuresome work.

 

Peace,

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:47:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Warren French's book

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I feel this paragraph highlites several points.  One, is the difference

> between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg.  He did

> not

> write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.

> He is the lyrics only.  They are the singer.

>

> Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,

> the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is

> sublime.  I have begun rereading The Waste Land.  If I have  a comment,

> it will come later.  But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he

> stood for, his poetry is sublime.

 

I won't try to refute the point that Eliot's poetry is sublime.  Only to

point out that his more formal, rigid, views of art and poetry are in the

traditional sphere, and very much the kind of things beat writers

rebelled against as establishment.  Ginsberg can even be described as

sublime is some poems but overall it is the sublime cracked against the

hard reality of life.

 

 

> Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they

> displace the establishment.  They may have penetrated the fortress >

> based

> upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel.  It remains in

> place today.

>

 

I disagree that the beats never became an organized movement.

Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs all formed the foundation of a new

direction in literature.  They never displaced establishment because the

very essence of beat writing is going beyond the fringes of what can be

called establishment.  The beats are/were always on the outside looking

in and convincing us that what was inside was not that true or great.  I

would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this list

are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered

normal by traditionalist views of literature and society.  The beats may

not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be heard

to those who are willing to listen.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:54:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Warren French's book

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

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Diane Carter wrote:

<snip>

> I

> would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this

> list

> are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered

> normal by traditionalist views of literature and society.  The beats

> may

> not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be

> heard

> to those who are willing to listen.

> DC

 

Diane:

 

Sometimes I feel that being a lawyer puts me on the fringes of the

traditional world and on this one too.  It is weird being a lawyer and

maintaining the point of view I do.

 

Last night there was a neighborhood party here.  I found about 6 of the

100 or so people that I could relate to.  About 40 or so were "yuppies"

in all the worst sense of the word.  About 40 were of the 1950's point

of view and the other 20 or so seemed interesting, but I could only talk

to about 6.  There was a time when I wanted approval and would have

desired to "fit" in, but now that I have had to "grow up" some, I was

content to watch and it occured to me, that I would rather be from the

50's mind set than the Yuppies.  At least the 50's type people feel

secure in their selfs and the world, even though very reactionary.  The

Yuppies have no sense of self.

 

And I feel further on the fringes than ever before in my life.  But, I

wouldn't want to be any other place!

 

Good thoughts here.  I think you are on the east coast, so let's both

get some sleep. :-)

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:50:54 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART  I

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7/8/97:  LUTHER ALLISON / INTRODUCTION / INTERVIEW

 

 

 

INTRODUCTION:

 

For those of you good folks that are interested in exploring the blues

without turning in your rock collection, I am happy to say, that doing

so would be unnecessary. Luther Allison will satisfy your "rock fix" and

at the same time give you a heavy dose of the blues. I first met Luther

in the early '70's, on a stretch of railroad tracks separating Lake

Monona from the bay=97or smaller lake, in Madison, Wisconsin. A nice plac=

e

to catch "sunnies" and have long conversations with or without the fish.

For me, I can honestly say, that Luther Allison was a lifesaver. Here

was a man=97with a legendary background in the blues, playing and working

steady. I was playing Delta blues, and there wasn't much work for an

acoustic player=97nor the blues in general. The '70's was a hard decade

for working bluesmen and women alike. Luther was one of the few people

working steady. What followed was an education from watching this master

on a live set. I noticed early on that Luther could cross-over

boundaries and rock the house, and bring you back to "Planet Earth" if

that's what you wanted. His genius for reading an audience was=97and

is=97unsurpassed. From Luther, I learned to hone my craft and take chance=

s

by adding new licks. I even went as far as studying classical guitar and

jazz methods; incorporating them into the blues. But alas, the '70's

decade came to an end with Luther relocating to Europe, eventually

choosing St. Cloud, France, near Paris, as home base.  His fans

worldwide are a living testament to one of the biggest guns in the

blues: Mr. Luther Allison. It was during a brief tour in '94, that the

rumors of a "return" surfaced and that he was going to sign with the

prestigious Alligator Records=97one of the best labels in the world for m=

y

money and my personal favorite. Well, the rest is history. With the

release of "Soul Fixin' Man" in 1994, it became apparent; the man was

back and riding the wave. His appearance at the 1995, Chicago Blues

Festival, was one of the most powerful moments in blues history, when he

stepped out on the stage in front of a stagnating count of

thousands=97hundreds of thousands of cheering fans, I looked over at my

wife and said, quote: "It looks like Luther's boat has landed, or is it

a ship?" We agreed on "Ocean Liner." With the release of "Blue Streak"

that same year he took home five W.C. Handy Awards, ten Living Blues

Awards, and a 1995 Indie Award. And with the release of his latest from

Alligator: "Reckless"=97a must have disc, that is beyond words; all I can

say is this: The man is unstoppable.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:57:56 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

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7/9/97:  LUTHER ALLISON / OUESTIONS / INTERVIEW

 

 

QUESTIONS:

 

 

1. Well Luther, the verdict is in=97I'm casting my ballot for "Best

Everything In The Blues"=97 if there's such a category=97 on "Reckless."

Man, you got to be happy with this; your latest from Alligator?=20

 

 

LUTHER:  "Man, I feel great=97and it's doing great. Everything started

with "Soul Fixin'.  I knew I had to do something big=97you know how the

business works, if I was going to make a Luther Allison statement, I

knew I had to come up with something that people would take notice, too.

With the release of "Blue Streak" I felt that my time had come.

 

RICHARD:  I was left speechless with each new release=97and Luther my

friend, you have arrived=97but hell, for me you were always on top. And

with "Reckless"=97 well, I can't see anybody coming close to topping that

one=97it's beautiful.

 

=20

2.  I know that you have a variety of guitars to choose from, but I

couldn't help but notice the "Gibson, Les Paul" on the cover of

"Reckless." Outside the duet "Playin' A losing Game"=97which incidentally=

,

was absolutely beautiful, did you record most of the other cuts on the

"Les Paul?" (Man, they have that certain sound=97real nice)

 

 

LUTHER:  No. I bought an original "Les Paul" in my neighborhood back in

Paris, from a shop=97one of many shops in the area. The guy that sold it

to me didn't tell me it had a broken neck. So I was pretty damn steamed

and took it back=97everybody in the neighborhood knew that it had a bad

neck. I told him how could you do this to me? Well, he said, what can I

do to make it up to you. And I said, you can go across the street and

buy me that 1960 reissue "Les Paul." Two weeks later, I got the Les from

him=97now that's a blues story!

 

RICHARD:  And you tore-up the 1995 Chicago Blues Fest=97with Mr. Les!=20

Man, that's some story=97that's what the blues is about. Sometimes, I

think it's all connected into one gigantic story=97and it's all those

real-life moments that make the blues a happening thing.

 

 

3.  Luther, in all honesty, I have never heard you sound more soulful

and on these cuts=97without sounding like a beer commercial=97I have too

say, "it doesn't get much better than this=97where do you go from here/or

what's next?

 

 

LUTHER:  Keep moving forward=97workin' and playin' so I can get some time

to hang with you and all my fishing buddies. Do you remember when I'd

drive to gigs with my pole, tackle, and bucket a worms; just in case I

passed by a lake on the way to a gig?

 

RICHARD:  Man, do I ever remember. I used to love driving to a gig and

always carried my fishin' stuff=97sometimes I'd forget the gig and all

hell would break loose! I only screwed-up a couple of times because the

fish were bitin'!

 

 

4.  I would love to see a Luther Allison, solo  unplugged session

someday, and I'm willing to bet it would be a winner. Have you ever

considered doing a project like that? (recording)

 

 

LUTHER:  Well, I've already done that. Did a CD back in Paris called:

"Hand Me Down My Moonshine" which has nothing to do with booze. It's

about the man in the moon. I assembled some guys and a real cool harp

player from the neighborhood. My son Bernard played a real bitchin'

slide=97sounded great!

 

RICHARD:  Man, now I got to hit Paris and find that CD. Here's a harp

story for you. When I was a kid living in Mpls and trying to be a real

"Bluesman," I'd get about fourteen dollars together and take the train

to Chicago. Eventually, make my way down to Maxwell Street=97hoping to se=

e

my heroes. So here comes Jr. Wells wearing a suit and real cool Fedora=97=

a

regular Al Capone hat. Hell, man I wanted to look just like Jr. Here I

am, about 16 yrs old=97all decked out and I jump in front of Jr., and say=

,

"Mr. Wells, could you please show me a few licks on my harp?"  He looks

at me real funny and says, "All I can Tell you is stick the harp in your

mouth and blow"=97and then he laughed like hell.=20

 

LUTHER:  (laughing)  "You tell Jr. the next time you see him that he

still owes me a lesson!"

 

 

5.  I have to praise your son, Bernard, whom I'd love to meet. To write

a song like: "Low Down And Dirty," and to hear him play and sing with

you on: "Playin' A Losing Game" convinced me, that here's a

bluesman=97something you don't see in the young very often=97you got to b=

e

one proud father?

 

 

LUTHER:  Oh man! I'm definitely proud. He's got all the stuff he needs

to make it all happen. On the duet, I played a Martin acoustic and he

played another hand-made acoustic that sounds real nice.

 

RICHARD:  I'm telling you, he knows his blues and has the necessary

soul=97man alive!  How old is he?

 

LUTHER:  He was born in '65, and that would make him 32 yrs old.

 

 

 

6.  Are you seeing  interest in learning more about the blues these days

with the younger kids=97especially in the black community=97(it's such a

rich heritage)?

 

 

LUTHER:  Well right now the blues is taking off and it feels real

good=97so the interest is there for anyone who wants to check it out.

 

RICHARD:  When I was a kid, I got my hands on an AM Transistor radio and

late at night I'd tune in a station: KAAY from Little Rock, Arkansas.

They had a late night show called (I think) Bleeker Street=97that's where

I first heard the greats like Elmore James, Freddie King, and of course

Muddy Waters (man, I wanted to be just like those guys). You were born

and raised in Arkansas, like Sonny Boy Williamson=97did you ever come int=

o

contact with some of the great bluesmen from the area?

 

LUTHER:  Yes=97definitely. When our family moved to Chicago, in 1951, you

couldn't help but come into contact with bluesmen=97I went to High School

for awhile with Muddy Waters son, and I'd hang at their house. My school

was/and is the blues.

 

RICHARD:  Well my friend, If I was president of some college, I'd give

you a "DOCTORATE OF BLUESOLOGY."=20

 

 

7.  One last question: any secret fishing spots you want to share?

 

(Much laughter)

 

LUTHER:  I think I'll pass on that one.

 

 

RICHARD:  Luther, after all these years, I finally caught up with you

and I'm damn happy that you're back=97and I mean back in more ways than

one!

=20

 

 

END /  INTERVIEW.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:16:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

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Richard,

 

Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.

 

Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some

small halls or before he goes back to Europe.  The CD's are great but

he's way better live.  Probably the best guitar player I have every

heard live.  Period.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:20:54 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART  3

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Hello Charles, James, Bentz, & Beat-L,

 

The interview with Luther Allison took place on 7/9/97. For me,

it was a real joy when Pulse Magazine asked me to do the interview.

Luther is an old friend and we go back about 20 or more years. On

7/11/97, he played in Mpls about 20 minutes from my place. We hadn't

seen each other in years, and for me, this was a very special time.

On the following Monday, the 14th, Alligator Records called and

informed me that Luther had canceled his world tour, and was

hospitalized in Madison, WI with inoperable brain cancer that had

spread from the lungs. He's hanging on and hoping for a remission

so he can finish his tour for the fans. And that's the Luther I know

and love--simply unstoppable.

 

Peace,

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:44:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "(Jerry Cimino)" <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm back ...

 

Hi Levi, et al...

 

I'm back too... been gone for a while on business and then I caught a few

posts on a VoC thread and then server problems apparently knocked me off.

 Looks like the Beat-L is roaring along, though.  Will join in again soon.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

www.kerouac.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      What NEXT?

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Good Morning,

 

It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly

well.  My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should

we jump into another book.  It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread

to have going.

 

In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?

Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.

Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'

works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one).  There was more

talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).

 

Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read

something as far away from Ulysses as possible.  BUT - I'm not certain

which one that would be.

 

At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread

created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book

much of the time.  It seems that there are plenty of books out there.

It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading

doesn't hurt a person too much.

 

This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after

much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person

has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from

general paralysis of the insane."  These days we have more complicated

diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at

digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all

about.

 

Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for

certain.

 

Glad to have people coming back.  Glad to have people who've stayed so

long and people who have joined in between.  What am i rambling about

... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning

before having coffee.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:28:43 +0900

Reply-To:     rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>

Subject:      Versace's death & Drag Queens.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Isn't it nice that when something nasty happens... it's a drag queen who

gets the blame.

 

Well, bugger that.

 

The arsehole who whacked Versace was a complete prick - a taste for my

frocks doesn't make him a queen... murdering prick. Queen, no.

 

Anyone who knows where he is, call your local crime department officials -

look up your local white/yellow pages for details.

 

I miss my favourite designer,

 

Ms Alisha

 

 

Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review

& 5UV

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm

 

For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:

http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:02:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE  PART 2

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

MIME-Version: 1.0

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James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Richard,

>

> Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.

>

> Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some

> small halls or before he goes back to Europe.  The CD's are great but

> he's way better live.  Probably the best guitar player I have every

> heard live.  Period.

>

> James Stauffer

 

James:

 

On the Jimi Hendrix list someone has posted information indicating that

Luther Allison has been diagnosed with a life threatening disease.

They have posted an address for money to be sent to help Luther as his

insurance will not cover the treatment.  (I say he should send the bill

to the members of congress, the insurance industry and the AMA who claim

we don't need any form of National Health Care).  I will try to dig up

that information and post it if I can find it.

 

Take care,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:07:42 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

i couldn't agree with Jenn's last line more.

 

i originally had mixed feelings regarding how JK looked at and felt about

women.  oddly, though, i've never been able to convince myself he was sexist.

rather, i think the totally mixed up relationship with his mother and his

Catholic upbringing brought him to a place where his expectations of women

were unrealistic and that there was a bit of the Madonna atmosphere about

women for him.

 

On the "kicks joy darkness" cd an unpublished piece, sort of a short essay,

called "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley" gives us a clue

that he had at least given thought to  women's social plight at the time

(1957).  He talks about how these three men represent a new kind of man whose

love is compassionate:

 

"Up to now the American Hero has always been on the defensive: he killed

Indians and villains and beat up his rivals and surled.  He has been

good-looking but never compassionate except at odd moments and only in stock

situations.  Now the new American hero, as represented by the trinity of James

Dean, Marlon Brando and Elvis Presley, is the image of compassion in itself.

And this makes him more beautiful than ever.  It is as though Christ and

Buddha were about to come again with masuline love for the woman at last.  All

gone are the barriers of asceticism and the barriers of ancient anti-womanism

that go deep into primitive religion...

 

... There is the need all around to be recognized and adored by some other

human being, the need all around for kindness, for the ideal of love which

does not exclude cruelty but is all-embracing, non-assertive, simply lovely.

Not necessarily the Dionysian orgy but the tender communion."

 

while i wouldn't call him a feminist, i think he was aware of the difficuties

for women at the time and that certain social mores and stigmas were unfair.

 

there is too much real feeling in JK for me to call him a sexist.  he may have

been messed up and not good at relationships - with both genders - (and,

obviously, behaved deplorably regarding his daughter and her mother), but i

have always felt that this was as a result of his personal demons, rather than

his outlook on women per se.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jenn Fedor

Sent:   Sunday, July 20, 1997 12:43 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism

 

reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use

for women" other than sex:

 

i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist.  i think that jack

was in love with the human race.  he loved people, no matter what gender.  i

do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,

but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men.  this does not

mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides

carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression.  for some

reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female

relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual.  i think, if

anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his

love was universal and had no gender limits.

 

sing

     dance

            be merry,

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:04:36 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      In regards

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)

  I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a

problem:  an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as

candidates so far.  This inability kept me from participating in the

_Visions of Cody_ project.  I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_

(which a friend had to lend to me).  Could we add this one to the list of

possibilities?  I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either.  I think

we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.

  Or Kerouac:  _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?

I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones

I really have any interest in reading again presently.

  Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.

 

                                                   James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:04:07 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      New thread

 

"Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

this our new thread?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:07:21 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:25:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: I give up on VOC

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33D23254.E4034CF8@scsn.net>

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On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> A couple of notes.  On the tapes.  What would it sound like if someone

> recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them?  I can think of

> very few that I would want to see in print.

 

I have done this. The results interested me, but in reading them I did

realize and understand that few (if any) others would hold the same interest

in reading them as a "work," ie. something that stood on its own (whatever

_that_ means) that any "Reader" could just jump in and get literarialized.

Which is why I'd asked that question earlier about fame & preconceived

notions upon approaching VOC.

 

I've seen a similar technique done quite well (though not nearly as lengthly

as Jack's, nor at all as personal) -- and that is in Bret Easton Ellis' _The

Rules of Attraction_. One of his less-known books, I think it's his best as

far as "literary" value. (It certainly was the one that affected _me_ the

most.) And I remember thinking, first time I read it _after_ having read

VOC, that Ellis no doubt was familiar with Kerouac and his techniques. I

think he consciously used Kerouac techniques or knowledge from observing

such in _...Attraction_, and probably did so at a lesser level in his other

works. Unlike, say, Ginsberg, Bret Easton Ellis is not exactly an accessible

figure, so it would be quite difficult to ask him.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:27:04 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

please re-read - i said i wouldn't call Kerouac a feminist.  unless, i typoed

- in which case let me re-state.  i wouldn't call him a feminist.

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:43:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: New thread

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997072111045396@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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bill

when does "some of the dharma" hit the streets? i am VERY excited by this

new release (isnt there another scheduled for release as well? "wake up"?

"what buddha teaches us"?) what have you thought of "some of the dharma"

so far?

yrs

derek

 

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>

> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

> this our new thread?

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:04:35 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

i think i must not have gotten my point across.

 

i really don't think JK was sexist.

 

i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and relationships in

general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen and

not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

prevailing opinions i grew up with.

 

my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

realized that there was some unfairness for women.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Kerouac and Women

 

Let's get real here.  Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry

Goldwater a liberal.  Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac

fell short.  I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there

are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there.  He certainly

wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was

usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.

He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:13:01 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

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Sherri,

 

I'm inclined toward Bill's view here.  The "seen not heard" stance while

certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant

voice.  Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.

Jack had a very hard time seeing real women.  They tend to appear as

unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.  There is a

tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal

with sometimes.

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote:

 . . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen

and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

>

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

>

> ciao,

> sherri

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:21:14 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

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> Date:          Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500

> Reply-to:      RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> From:          RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> Subject:       What NEXT?

> To:            BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

> Good Morning,

>

> It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly

> well.  My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should

> we jump into another book.  It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread

> to have going.

>

> In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?

> Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.

> Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'

> works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one).  There was more

> talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).

>

> Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read

> something as far away from Ulysses as possible.  BUT - I'm not certain

> which one that would be.

>

> At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread

> created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book

> much of the time.  It seems that there are plenty of books out there.

> It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading

> doesn't hurt a person too much.

>

> This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after

> much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person

> has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from

> general paralysis of the insane."  These days we have more complicated

> diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at

> digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all

> about.

>

> Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for

> certain.

>

> Glad to have people coming back.  Glad to have people who've stayed so

> long and people who have joined in between.  What am i rambling about

> ... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning

> before having coffee.

>

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

>

>

i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short

easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat

but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik

and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in

OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,

comments? Cya~randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:38:27 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Eastward Journey, the end

 

Well I made it to the East Coast. I started from Eureka, California on June

21 with my ballet teacher and Mr. Hat. Also a yellow duck, a toy Hercules

that I found at Hoover Dam, and a copy of On The Road that my friend was

suppose to read but never did.

 

Last transmission was from Amarillo, Texas.

 

Corrected and updated information on Caddillac Ranch. It is at mile marker 64

on Route 40 (old route 66), get off at Hope Road. 203 steps from the road.

When I was there at 8 in the morning, there were 3 other cars there to see

Caddillac Ranch including a family from Germany. They were also driving cross

country (a couple with 2 kids).

 

>From there continued east stopping in Tyler, Texas. Looked for a used

bookstore but never found it.

 

Next stop was Narlens. Driving down Louisiana to catch Route 10, passed by an

sign for Tiger Gas that said they had tigers. So had to stop, and not only

did they have tigers (what the hell are tigers doing in Louisiana) but they

had two baby tigers as well. The baby cubs were 15 weeks old and chewing up a

plastic pool that they were suppose to be cooling off in.

 

Of course saw a bunch of dead armidillos.

 

Get to Narlens (ok, I'm so cool I say Narlens instead of New Orleans. So

what?) Narlens is one of my favorite cities. Got a Hotel room on Royal

Street, on block off Bourbon Street, and it was only $45 a night (with AAA

discount). Stayed there two nights. Bourbon street is three things, no four

things. Music, T shirts shops, sex shops, and Hurricanes.

 

Music was ok. Last year when I went I heard Brick House by the Commodores (I

actually like that song) so it was great. Lots of blues, R&B, some jazz, some

rock, and Karaoke (which I hate, but I don't know why because it sounds like

it should be fun). This year add DISCO. YES. DISCO. Quite a number of bars

were playing Disco. That's up with that?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:39:19 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: "to have seen a specter isn't everything..."

 

In a message dated 97-07-14 12:45:57 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)

writes:

 

<<  good neighborhood for sex clubs, used

 book, record & clothing stores.  and automotive supply stores.

  >>

 

That is exactly the kind of place I'm looking for. Good automotive supply

stores.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:30:38 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma

 

I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the

"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:45:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      FW: Jack and Neal

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----------

From:  Hemenway . Mark

Sent:  Monday, July 21, 1997 9:37 AM

To:  'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'

Subject:  RE: Jack and Neal

Importance:  High

 

You might read <<Visions of Cody>> for Jack's book length views on his

relationship with Neal. I just read it again, not too long ago, and

don't remember any explicit references to a gay relationship. He

apparently saw him as a brother, a replacement for Gerard. The whole

brother thing... Gerard... etc is a gold mine for anyone interested in

psycho-biography. RE: Jack's sexual life, I recommend <<Memory Babe>>

by Gerry Nicosia as a source.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      FW: Reading VOC

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----------

From:  Hemenway . Mark

Sent:  Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 AM

To:  'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'

Subject:  RE: Reading VOC

Importance:  High

 

I could never make any progress with Naked Lunch until I read an essay

that pointed out it was never meant to be read in a linear way- start

to finish- but was written as unrelated scenes. For those

obsessive-compulsive people like me having trouble making it through

VOC, you might try the same approach. It is a difficult book. Just dip

in and read a bit. No disrespect intended, but I found it to be great

bathroom reading. Bedtime reading might also work. I also ended

reading it backwards and enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

Mark Hemenway

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:06:11 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

i would agree that AG & WSB did exhibit some mysoginistic feelings (although

my reading of both of them has a long way to go before i can be any real

judge).

 

i will reiterate that JK displayed unrealistic expectations of and ideals

about women. however, i do not think they were out of an idea that women were

second class citizens. i think they were based on his personal experiences.

 

as far as the predominant view of "women's place" in the 50's, i don't see how

anyone can say that it wasn't that women "should be seen and not heard", etc.

- that problem still exists, probably much more than one would think.  i was

born in '57 and spent all of my childhood and most of my teenage years

hearing, almost exclusively, that crock o' shit from most of the males i knew

- and fighting it mightily.  i ran into it in the work world and in college in

the 70's and early 80's. and even in liberal old Calif., it's still not

terribly unusual to run into it in a rather veiled way (and occasionally a

totally glaring way).   it may not have been the predominant opinion among

Beats, i have yet to form a solid opinion on that, but it does appear to be at

odds with the general sense of what Beat seems to mean...

 

i also think it is important to form an opinion regarding an author's social

outlook by placing what s/he has to say within the social context of the time.

 i know, with regard to myself, how my views have changed during my lifetime

due to exposure to various ideas and cultures and although my natural outlook

has always been that of a feminist, my opinions have been molded and re-shaped

by experience and learning.  i, therefore, would hate to have my attitudes be

judged at any one point in time without the social climate of the time as a

backdrop.

 

all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i

infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.

ciao,

sherri

 

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

Sent:   Monday, July 21, 1997 11:13 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Kerouac and Women

 

Sherri,

 

I'm inclined toward Bill's view here.  The "seen not heard" stance while

certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant

voice.  Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.

Jack had a very hard time seeing real women.  They tend to appear as

unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.  There is a

tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal

with sometimes.

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote:

 . . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen

and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

>

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

>

> ciao,

> sherri

>

 



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