>From: Bruce K. Isaacson, 102747,2722
>DATE: 6/14/97 4:39 PM
>RE: Ginsberg Night at Enigma Garden, Las
Vegas, Nevada
>
>For
your information.....
>
>June
3, 1997 was Allen Ginsberg's 71st birthday.
On that evening, a
>group
of 60 or so Las Vegas poets, writers, artists, bohos, and other
>illuminati
turned out to remember Allen and honor his work and
>contribution. There were notable poems commemorating
Allen's work from
>German
Santanilla and Gregory Crosby. Dayvid
Figler got the crowd
>bubbling
with his own work and brought an excellent version of Allen
>reading
"America", which held the audience intensely with its Vegas-like
>mix
of humor and ennui. Emmanuel read
Allen's poem written to an
>Eldorado
High School student, which contains a visionary mix of Howard
>Hughes-like
paranoia and old-fashioned Mob lore to
describe Vegas of
>the
70s and America still. Other parts of
Allen's work read included
>Ignu
and Kaddish. Tribute poems to Allen by
excellent poets who Allen
>favored
such as Bob Kaufman and Helen Adam were also read aloud. There
>was
a score of Allen's books passed around by various people who brought
>them,
including some limited editions as well as City Lights and Harper
>&
Row publications. Las Vegas poets who
read also included Art Slate,
>Eavonka
Ettinger, Joel Parilini, Mike Gullickson, Mike Flower, Jackie
>Nourigat,
Mark Griffith and Gloria King. A good
time was had by all
>who
attended and many came away with increased interest in one of
>America's
unique and excellent voices.
>
>Thanks
to Las Vegas journalist and Enigma Cafe owner Lenadams Doris for
>making
it possible. I'd welcome hearing from
anyone with other
>remembrances
or comment.
>
>Bruce
Isaacson
>BruceI@compuserve.com
>Within
a few weeks I expect the e-mail address to change to
>BruceI@skylink.net
>
>
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* This occasional newsletter is sent to those
who have *
>* visited our Ginsberg site. If you do not wish to *
>* receive these very rare messages, simply hit
reply *
>* and type REMOVE in the subject line. We'll get you *
>* taken off the list immediately! To be added to the *
>* mailing list, just drop us a line: *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>*
mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:32:33 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: [eye] Sum [soup]
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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little
kid
chinese
restaurant
pickup
sticks
make em
click
yum yum
mu shu
new shu
size 11
hmm
[[
spent a good hour last night listening to the sights in my
neighborhood
[[ per
Aristotle, we're supposed to be able to modify our hearing
[[ but
fixed in our vision, seeing, perceptions and believing
[[ the
words before you are true ???
listening?
sounds
like a vision >>Douglas
"the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: James William
Marshall[SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 11:01 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Sum
>
>eyes
>boren
captifitee
>anne
wayting anne wayting
>four
>sum
one two
>smutherme
>
>
James M.
<<nice>>
reminds
me of Patti Smith and Tom Verlaine's "the night"
>all
this "eye" talk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:50:13 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970715114032.29026A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The
impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
for
JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
the
rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
diverging
lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn
cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
Tracy
On Tue,
15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>
> * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
>
> but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>
> again ciao.
>
>
>
> do any of you know anything about this?
was this the beginning of the rift
>
> between them?
>
>
>
> ciao,
>
> sherri
>
>
>
> I
think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
>
two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
>
$$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
>
Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>
typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)
When Neal was out of jail,
> he
asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
> he
could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
>
Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:55:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Subject: Info on Billie Holiday
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello,
I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
presentation
on Women beats. I choose Billie
Holiday, unfortunately the
time
restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
to find
mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
list. I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and
therefore seek your help
even
more.
Thank
you
Lush
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:10:01 -0400
Reply-To: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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MIME-Version:
1.0 (WebTV)
This
isn't exactly beat ( I believe he's usually saddled with the label
"NY
School of Poets"-- which a friend once pointed out sounds like he
took a
correspondence class advertised on a
matchbook cover...), but
Frank
O'Hara's The Day Lady Died is a really lovely tribute, and among
my
favorite poems.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I
get the feeling Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to
>
par with some other things he has done.
What is he going for here?
>
Where and why is he choosing this course.
>
> I
am hopelessly bogged down in Part II.
>
>
Next, how about some Proust?
>
> I
think it is like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,
>
unfinished works that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially
>
revealed full flung.
>
>
So, I am not sure I will finish Cody this second time. But I tried.
Bentz,
The
more of Cody I read, the more I like it.
I think that the hard thing
to
grasp is the mixture of writing styles but that's inherent in an
approach
that takes events out of time and treats them as visions,
perhaps
dream-like, expressions of moments. I
do think that he thought a
lot about
the structure of this book and that there is a method in his
madness,
so to speak. I've still got another
hundred pages to go and I
don't
know how it ends, but I think he was struggling with a way to
present
timelessness and unconscious/mythical configurations as an
overlay
over actual events, and that is a hard thing to do and a hard
thing
to read. I'm still not sure if he's
pulled it off.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
Comments:
To: babu@electriciti.com
In a
message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
<<
I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
That's
a good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
would
have been off just like the portraits.
C
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:19:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: love_singing@msn.com
Of
course. Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:51:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-15 15:11:57 EDT, you write:
<< Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
typewriter to use in his cell but thats
all) >>
Thanks
a lot. Yeah. I'll never forget those eyes when Neal pleaded with me to
lend
him a fin ($5.00) to buy gas to the Hell's Angels party. It's a look you
never
want to see. I've seen it on the Bowery and every skid row too much. He
had to
make a big deal about paying me back. Of course he never had to go
through
any of this. And It wasn't part of a con; It was atavistic. So
anyway,
fuck miserly Jack, who had a lot of things going for him except
class.
Neal had more of that.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:20:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: tjneuman@umich.edu
In a
message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
<<
and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement
over money?
Tracy >>
I'd
guess that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
Unless,
of course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
C
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:34:07 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33CBBAE4.2E42@together.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
11:01 AM -0700 7/15/97, Diane Carter wrote:
>
I'm still not sure if he's pulled it off.
see Man
Ray, "L'enigme d'Isidore Ducasse" (1920)
and
what's underneath? pray tell, Diane?
> DC
= deux chat
dancing
pirate
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:30:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
<<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. >>
Oh fer
Chrissake!
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: kaufmanl@pacificu.edu, baculum@mci2000.com
In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
Kaufmann)
writes:
<<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. So I was hoping to
get some information from this
list. I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help
even more.
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:40:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Tracy J
Neumann wrote:
>
>
The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
>
for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
>
the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
>
diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
>
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>
>
Tracy
>
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>
>
> > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
>
> > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>
> > again ciao.
>
> >
>
> > do any of you know anything about this? was this the beginning of the
rift
>
> > between them?
>
> >
>
> > ciao,
>
> > sherri
>
> >
>
>
>
> I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
>
> two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
>
> $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
>
> Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>
> typewriter to use in his cell but thats all) When Neal was out of jail,
>
> he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
>
> he could feed his kids, and Jack refused. In her book, "Off the Road",
>
> Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>
>
You
forget to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn. Disagreements
over
sexual situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
about
money last longer--beleive me, I've been there. This one was
about
money. Jack was no sexual threat to
Neal.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:34:12 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
MIME-Version:
1.0
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now now
charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
why we could suggest a reading list. I won't
flame the guy cause that
soft
hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience. and i have been
there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
with an
idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
idea
and ask people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
been
there.
because
i love to read and talk
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:47:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
In-Reply-To:
<970715230547_-1125008626@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 8:06
PM -0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
>
>
That's a good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
>
would have been off just like the portraits.
no no
no. those were the pissing
portraits. where Joe Dellasandro
emptied
his
bladder. and don't forget fuck, heat,
and what where some of his other
film
titles? Will never forget Dracula and
Frankenstein. changed me
forever
as a kid. jeez, and can't keep bowie's
suffragette city off my
tape
player, either. damn.
I miss
Andy. and Versace who died today. all dandies must morn. Andy
created
the term "superstar". Got his
start designing shoe advertisments.
Who
would have thought? that some other
agenda should come along and shoot
him!
but
andy would have talked real slow. I'm
told he had quite the wit, but
don't
know if Neal wouldn't get quickly bored with him. Kerouac at least
seems
to keep his attention. they cruised
similar strips. I guess andy
and
neal would talk about cars and chicks or fame and death and dying.
yeah? <<Andy
yeah. <<Neal
[[lots
of staring out to sea
> C
Plymell = count plymouth
dancing
paris
<<laugh......
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:49:01 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To:
<970715231931_1961001112@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At 8:19
PM -0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Of
course. Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
without
Charles. WITHOUT!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:13:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970716003008_-1460255033@emout12.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Wed,
16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
> to find mention of her. >>
>
> Oh
fer Chrissake!
> C.
Plymell
dear
plymell:
>
what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
there
and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
response
brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
questings.
if you
are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
steve
(who
is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
mentions---and
i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
message
to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
they
will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
work for
her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
for
views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
snotty
snit.)
s.s.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:24:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Blues for Gianni
MIME-Version:
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Sic
transit gloria, Gianni
No beat
certainly but terrific flair.
A loss
to Eurotrash everywhere. Not a dandy
tho, sort of an
anti-dandy--the
triumph of flash over taste, but god rest his soul. I'll
miss
the catalogs, acres of lovely flesh to sell a teacup or a necktie.
Warhol
would have liked him, I should think.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:36:36 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Steve,
As one
who flamed your student let me just say this.
If someone came on
the
list with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
test, I
think they'd get a fair response. The
post which started this
admitted
a lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
How
would you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
On the
Road. I don't have time to read it,
could someone please help me
by posting
a summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
being a
college graduate."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:02:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CC6BF4.605E@pacbell.net>
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On Tue,
15 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
>
Steve,
>
> As
one who flamed your student let me just say this. If someone came on
>
the list with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
>
test, I think they'd get a fair response.
The post which started this
>
admitted a lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
>
How would you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
> On
the Road. I don't have time to read it,
could someone please help me
> by
posting a summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
>
being a college graduate."
>
dear
james: bit of a logical fallacy in yer response above, eh? yes, she did
mention
lack of time--a bit of a fall on her part: what she was saying
most of
all (negated or circumscribed due no doubt to email structure and
her own
nervousness about posting to the list for the first time) was
that
she was looking for extra stuff AFTER her own work.
the
logical fallacy gig i mention is that not one part of your analogy
even
remotely applies to her original post or to the spirit of it.
however,
i do see how you might go off half-cocked like this-----i made
the
same mistake (as i painfully found out) on another list
i
monitor all lists that i suggest my students use for conversation and
info---i
would consider it a serious breach of academic honesty for any
of them
to get others to do their work for them; i do not in the
slightest
way feel that lusha has done such a thing on the beat-l list
i must
say that i will think twice before i suggest the list address to
my
students in the future
please,
james, do not consider this a response only to you--in tone or in
content;
i am up in arms in a general way--and always with the best
interests
of my student and her interests and feelings in mind
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:16:48 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
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1.0
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I tend
to agree with Charles on this one.
Forgetting hat it sounds a lot
someone
asking for someone else to do their homework (a common event on "the
net")
But,
Billie
Holiday is not "a Women beat".
Might as well do a topic on Buddy
Bolden
Jimmie Rodgers or Robert Johnson or maybe in keeping with the woman
theme,
Bessie Smith or Lena Horne or Sarah Vaughn or anybody How Kate (God
Bless
America Smith?). How about Patsy Cline?
I guess
you are limiting the topics to people mentioned in Beat writing.
How
about Yma Sumac???
Also,
what do you expect to glean from the writings and poetry you don't
have
time to read in terms of a presentation on Billie Holliday? So is your
presentation
about Billie Holliday or about what was written about her by
some
drunken beatniks? Letting us know more would help.
The
easyest way for you to learn something about Billie Holliday is to go to
Blockbuster
video and rent Lady Sings the Blues (1972 starring Diana Ross
and
Billie Dee Williams).
And to
answer your question anyhoooooow (so don't say I didn't help ya) in
Visions
of Cody there is a bit where they mention Billie Holliday and her
song
Gloomy Sunday as the suicide song of the thirties.
And
also don't go sulk. Write back if you
are actually keen on this.
At
11:13 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On
Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>>
In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>>
>>
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
>> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
>> to find mention of her. >>
>>
>>
Oh fer Chrissake!
>>
C. Plymell
>
>dear
plymell:
>>
>what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
>there
and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>response
brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
>enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>questings.
>
>if
you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
>snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
>
>steve
>
>(who
is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>mentions---and
i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>message
to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
>they
will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
>work
for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
>for
views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
>snotty
snit.)
>
>s.s.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:17:41 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Just because some beat me to it don't
mean I can't say it too
Comments:
To: race@MIDUSA.NET
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Say
what? Thank you David. Not that that tired old clich=E9 means
anything,
nor do i mean to insinuate in any way that you did it looking
for any
kind of thanks or something like it, still i been wantin to tell
you as
soon as I read your piece, that was just one of those things that
happen
once in a great while when something is just all right, in the
right
time, and right on time too, not to mention right on target, The
best
for the last after all kinds of agonizing brilliant flashes
sparking
energies all around.
As I
found myself writing to a friend I suddenly realized I should let
you
know too how it made me feel. And now that I do, I would be less
than
candid if I didn't mention to you that this protesting of
illiteracy so much does make me wonder, hey what's
going on here.
Myself
I thought one of the virtues of your post was that it took a
populist
style so to speak as opposed to an exhibition of alive
effervescent
erudition and agility like almost magician sparkling before
my
eyes, still not quite matching my non-literary real life
nevertheless,
impressions of the subject of these eloquent theories also
that
plain folks like me also are grateful
to be within ear shot though
feeling
not up to the task of entering knowledgeable literary, poetic
philosophic
let alone moral judgments and considerations, in other words
having
enjoyed the great inspired symphony in awed drop jaw silence, you
helped
me catch my breath again, to find my voice jabbering nonsense,
forgive
me everybody
I am
delighted with the poetic justice that awarded you such a fitting
celebration
after the brilliant flowers that shot up in the garden that
you
planted. You drew such dedicated energy of such immense talents.
ending
with such a beautiful bouquet to crown the fruits of David's
taking
your call so close to his heart, which beats
pretty close to
that
backpack also, and coming through, coming through, hey guys, look
at it
this way. I too felt a strong draw to immediately let him know how
welcome his touch was, but I was derailed. I had
time to answer a
couple
of letters. And one thing I did that I hadn't done before, was
forward
a post. I was answering John Cassady's invitation for a lunch,
and I
added on to him David's post. Come to think of it, I too should
say
something to David (Our counterpart of Rinaldo Rasa?). Now that I
think
of it I'll snip this his part of this letter and send it to him.
He
deserves all the responses that he gets. End of snip
Now
come to think of it again, I'll mail it to us on the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:59:49 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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At
12:32 AM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
>Kaufmann)
writes:
>
><<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>
texts. I am taking summer course on the
Beat greats and we are doing a
>
presentation on Women beats. I choose
Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>
time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
> to
find mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
>
list. I plead ignorance of most beat
lit, and therefore seek your help
>
even more.
> >>
>
Billy
was a wonderful singer, but who ever said she was a beat?
Anyway,
look at the Diane Ross film Lady Sings the Blues if you
want a
distorted overview.
Mike
Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:04:28 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Mime-Version:
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At
11:34 PM 7/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>now
now charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
>
why we could suggest a reading list. I won't flame the guy cause that
>soft
hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience. and i have been
>there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
>with
an idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
>idea
and ask people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
>been
there.
>because
i love to read and talk
>p
>
>
The
last time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City
Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot
shot of
horse from a syringe dangling from her
purse. Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I
that
night,
but she didn't seem to give a shit. She
had a date
to meet
Lenny Bruce in front of City Lights. So
who shows
up? Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert
Goldman!
Strange
Fruit, don't you think?
Mike
Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:03:04 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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At
09:40 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tracy
J Neumann wrote:
>>
>>
The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
>>
for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
>>
the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
>>
diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
>>
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>>
>>
Tracy
>>
>>
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>>
>>
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>>
>
>>
> > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
>>
> > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>>
> > again ciao.
>>
> >
>>
> > do any of you know anything about this? was this the beginning of the
>
rift
>>
> > between them?
>>
> >
>>
> > ciao,
>>
> > sherri
>>
> >
>>
>
>>
> I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
>>
> two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
>>
> $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
>>
> Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>>
> typewriter to use in his cell but thats all) When Neal was out of jail,
>>
> he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
>>
> he could feed his kids, and Jack refused. In her book, "Off the Road",
>>
> Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>>
>
>
>
>You
forget to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn. Disagreements
>over
sexual situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
>about
money last longer--beleive me, I've been there. This one was
>about
money. Jack was no sexual threat to
Neal.
>
>James
Stauffer
>
>
Listen,
Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
and had
been lovers, at least at times. isn't
it possible
homosexuality
played a role in their rift?
Mike
Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:12:47 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Gianni Versace.
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COME VORREI MORIRE by Gianni Versace
COME IL CONTE SALINA DI LAMPEDUSA,
IL GATTOPARDO: GUARDANDO
IL LAGO, CON SERENITA'.
LA MORTE NON MI FA PAURA.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:04:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: From Cody to Stephen
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Good Morning,
Friends,
and that is what i feel so many of you are, cybernetically
connected
to me more closely than most people i know - i thought i would
sit
down for a moment this morning while sipping my first cup of coffee
and
express some gratitude for all the wonderful comments i have
received
recently both on the List and Off. I
must admit that my big
toe is
swelling a bit but fortunately not my head yet. =20
A very
wise man taught me through a book that it is all about having an
angle
and so i guess that i just looked at all the different geometric
shapes
created by others and then stepped back about ten paces and took
in the
larger portrait. =20
I've
enjoyed the specific comments and what one refered to me as the
reinvigoration
of the cyberthread or something along those lines. I
believe
that certain people have made a serious question about the
nature
of the gift that Jack gave Cody and the appreciation of it and i
really
just thought about the times at Christmas and Birthdays when
people
who loved me with their hearts full gave me presents that were so
far
from what i really desired that i sometimes wanted to scream - don't
you
know i'll never wear these things! But
i never did because to me
there
is something about intentionality when it comes to the giving of
gifts
even of the legendary and the mythic variety - and even in these
perhaps
archetypal rituals of gift-giving we can look back and say that
it is
the thought that counts.
As i
said, i am moving ahead to another book and today on July 16 i will
finally
crack this book by James Joyce that just feels powerful. I
believe
that i will actually read this book about June 16 very slowly
and
linearly.
I
realize the journey will be dangerous.
A dear friend in Kansas City
reported
that half way through Ulysses he had a stroke.
The doctors
didn't
declare any causal relationship but it makes you wonder.
So
armed with guides and bodyguards and a rolling tape of the Grateful
Dead
playing Saint Stephen in my mind i trudge forward. I will turn
into
the chapter titled I this morning some time.
Here
were my impressions of Judging the upcoming book by its cover...
Erasing
Apollo - Erasing Bacchus: Another tale in the Legend of
Abraxas......
I hold
the black and white book in my hands listening to a man with my
middle
name as he maps the stars that one reads on a journey along the
road of
the physical world or along the roads twisting and turning in
and out
as one attempts to find the oblique pathway back to the sanity
of
times forgotte. The eternal myth of
return is recounted in this
black
and white book and I have so many guides helping me from stars
beyond
parallel universes all the way home to the safety and security of
a
sacred bathroom in an apartment named #23.
This journey is the
oblique
pathway from insanities so personal that perhaps they should not
be
told. Some say that in the telling I
can help others to find their
way but
each route winds a different road up and around hollers in the
mountains
and back through misty mornings in the hill country going
through
the roots of one=92s psyche and physical ancestry chasing a hope
of
return, return to something that maybe never was but hopefully will
be when
I get there. This map is not an
accurate description of the
territory
and at best is my individual map and no one can learn
themselves
from it, only me. For those who find
that uninteresting, as
I
might, I would not be at all offended if you set this down and
returned
to your busy lives and the realities of everyday magic that you
love
and cherish. If you don=92t love and
cherish the everyday elements
of your
life, perhaps you should read on for a bit at least, because the
places
and stories of the unreal-realities that were so deeply felt to
me
makes the lives of the average James and Joyce a portrait of the
mysteries
of happiness. I hold the book in my
hand. Just holding it is
enough
for now. No need to open this book yet.
=20
Some
might think my perceptions off for saying that this is a black book
with
white letters. Even I did for quite
some time. Many say don=92t
judge a
book by its cover and being the intrinsically rebellious type I
have
done so for many many years. My
judgement is that this will be a
good book. I think of Melanie=92s line - wish I could
find a good book t=
o
live
in. I don=92t really feel that I will
live in this book, not
permanently
at least, but it appears at first glance to be a good enough
to help
me find my way into my own book, a book that does not represent
my Self
but actually is me. Hopefully, these
somewhat random musings
along
the journey through this good book will provide direction for me
towards
a book worth living in that is one in which I am both author and
protagonist
and most of the characters in the mist.
The
white letters on the black background appear on the back of this
book. At the top right hand corner of the back
cover is the word
LITERATURE. And I smile and say to my little self well
it=92s about time
you
journey into this Type of Book to see where it will take you - you
dork!
=20
I read
further and am zapped by a lightning bolt of synchronicity
recognizing
the white numerals signify the year in which I was born. It
is as
if the complete and unabridged text was corrected and entirely
reset
just for me. At least that will be the
way it is for a period of
time as
my mind wanders through this book checking in with my guides and
bodyguards
along the way.
I am
sitting on my sofa as I read these white words and it is brown and
green
and belonged to my step-Grandmother Mary Vineyard who died fairly
recently. I visited her and her son Don - my
stepfather and conservator
- at
the nursing home shortly before her death and we both watched and
felt
her pain and I watched Don=92s pain the tough Marine facing the
passing
of his Mother and it was such a touching and sorrowful event.=20
Entire
books could be written about gentle Mary Vineyard and her sons
but
that is not the direction that my words will go today. Rather, I
will
sit on her sofa as I examine this book corrected and reset in the
year of
my birth into this world.
I read
further and see that the original American edition, which is all
I could
possibly comprehend, was published at the time that my parents
were
infants and that there is a foreward by the author and a foreward
containing
the court decision concerning the censorship of this good
book in
my hands the opinion of a Judge John M. Woosley.
My
heart leaps for joy. I will be able to
meet the author before
delving
into this new ground of literature but I will be able to ground
the
entire reading in an area of my expertise as I spent an entire year
involved
in critical study and reearch of American first amendment law.=20
It will
be interesting to ponder Judge Woosley=92s words in light of the
notions
of critical theory and postmodern criticism which I have studied
in
application to the good book I am about to travel through. It will
provide
an anchor to this journey of a time when my mind was not only
fine
but sharp as a tack when I spent hours examining and analyzing and
synthesizing
the words of Supreme Court justices in an attempt to create
new
visions of thought relating to subject matters loosely thrown
together
under the veil of freedom of expression.
A
numerological code is explained which may be beyond me, but it appears
that
this edition which allows the pages of the old to appear in the
pages
of the new and this makes me think of the relativity of time but
not so
much that my mind spins off in a tornado.
This is
the first time it is in paperback.
Perfect. I much prefer
paperbacks
especially used ones because you can feel the past in them
much
better. They read more like a well worn
pair of tattered Levis
than a
Tuxedo and I am much more at home in the tattered blue jeans.
One
other thing appears in white on the back cover. a numerical code.=20
394-70380-4. I remember and laugh at myself times in the
past when I
would
search for meaning in the numerical code of the book rather than
open
the book and read it. Perhaps just a
different form of perception
a
different methodology of reading.
Probably not though!
These
are the white letters on the cover and they are indeed
meaningful. The remainder of the cover provides
incredibly enticing
emblems
including three flowers (which I will proclaim are sunflowers)
two
purple and one red with faces on the inside where the sunflower
seeds
grow and I laugh at the time in Winston-Salem North Carolina where
a
appalachian trail hiker named Easy Rider decided that I was Johnny
Sunflower
Seed. I wonder what he=92s doing now?
The
book has a tattered front cover. Just
like my favorite jeans. It
is an
antique. I will cherish this book like
one is I live in it for
some
time to come. I peak inside the back
cover. It appears that a
previous
owner had difficulty with getting a pen to produce ink and
swirled
and swirled around until the ink came along in a jagged little
line in
the middle of the swirls. Lightning
bolt among the swirling
waters. I declare that this page is art.
What a
wonderful cover. What a good book. I will definitely move into
this
book soon. But for now I will slow my
pace a bit more even to the
crawl
of a turtle along the side of a country road lost looking for its
way
back home but perfectly content in its journeying. No homesickness
in the
turtle. No fear because of the
biological gift of a suit of
armour. And I feel my own protections secret shields
that envelope me
that I
must address and so I set the book beside me on old Mary
Vineyard=92s
sofa and move my mind to sweet things in the present and the
future.
The
sweet things border on the edges of Henry Miller and Anais Nin but
hopefully
i'll not be too distracted by the sweet wonders to prevent me
from
trudging through this June 16 adventure finding my way back from
the
universal to the particular and from there ... from there ... ah
shit, i
ain't gonna try and look that far ahead.
shalom,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:03:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a
message dated 97-07-16 05:37:38 EDT, you write:
<<
.
>Kaufmann) writes:
>
><< Hello, >>
Lusha.
How did Bob feel about being a beat? I put him up there at Corso
status,
though willing to be on the front lines more. Took unecessay
beat-ings
from the cops. I knew him most in his
silent days, so we spent
most of
the time on the Muni just looking out the windows.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:07:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-16 06:15:56 EDT, you write:
<<
Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.
> >>
I think
James is correct on this. There might be spats, yes. And I think Neal
wd have
felt a little betrayed in prison where his mind had time to play on
him,
but money would be the larger concern in the long run.
Anyway
that's how I'd see it. Maybe ask Carolyn?
C
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:53:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970715230124.24116B-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue,
15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> On
Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>
>
>
> << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in
Beat
>
> texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
>
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>
> time restraint has made it
difficult to read all of the poems and novels
>
> to find mention of her. >>
>
>
>
> Oh fer Chrissake!
>
> C. Plymell
>
>
dear plymell:
>
>
>
what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse
"i was
>
there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>
response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a
fair
>
enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>
questings.
>
> if
you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>
constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
>
snotty repost from deep left field!!!!
>
>
steve
>
>
(who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>
mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>
message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
>
they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>
about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
>
work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
>
for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
>
snotty snit.)
>
>
s.s.
>
Lusha...
All I
know is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
time,
in the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
any
concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question
is
this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
be
sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
students
to feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
your
questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
I've
lurked this list for a long time. There is personality and insight
galore.
I think people get a little label weary... at least I do.
Creating
a beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
stomach
to do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
will
have to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
so long
and I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
cultivate
is the persistance of your own mind.
-Shannon
(in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.91.970716093756.12636V-100000@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I think
what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH
A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER! Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed,
16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
>
> > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>
> >
>
> > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned
in Beat
>
> > texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
>
> > presentation on Women
beats. I choose Billie Holiday,
unfortunately the
>
> > time restraint has made it difficult
to read all of the poems and novels
>
> > to find mention of her. >>
>
> >
>
> > Oh fer Chrissake!
>
> > C. Plymell
>
>
>
> dear plymell:
>
> >
>
> what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse
"i was
>
> there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>
> response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks
a fair
>
> enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>
> questings.
>
>
>
> if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>
> constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
>
> snotty repost from deep left field!!!!
>
>
>
> steve
>
>
>
> (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>
> mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>
> message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
>
> they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>
> about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do
her
>
> work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
>
> for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
>
> snotty snit.)
>
>
>
> s.s.
>
>
>
>
Lusha...
>
>
All I know is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
>
time, in the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
>
any concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question
> is
this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
> be
sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
>
students to feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
>
your questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
>
I've lurked this list for a long time. There is personality and insight
>
galore. I think people get a little label weary... at least I do.
>
Creating a beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
>
stomach to do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
>
will have to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
> so
long and I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
>
cultivate is the persistance of your own mind.
>
>
-Shannon (in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
<<general
musings this morning>>
you
write:
> Ok
so I can't write words anymore. I'll go to China.
and
will you knock your sconce against the wall there? that great wall.
the wall all runners dream about?
and let
me add: in rainbows. Chopped so much wood last night, the past
few
nights, that I should be kept warm this summer. In deed. If I
didn't
burn and boil all the water out of my house.
late at night.
"Don't
smoke in bed" they say. and it's
true. this body is cinder for
thought
and I fear the flame.
email
would have been a send for the beats, I imagine. Would they have
felt
the need to always travel the roads?
Was watching this Marilyn
Monroe,
Clark Gable movie last night on teaV.
no sound, just the black
and
white images on my 21 inch screen. The
camera is looking. always
looking. at Marilyn.
at Gable looking at Marilyn.
bodies in motion.
"[...]
from an historical conjuncture, from the mouth of another,
wherein
the spirt without knowledge is dumb; but if the spirit opens to
him the
signature, then he understands the speech of another; and
further,
he understands how the spirit has manifested and revealed
itself
(out of the essence through the principal) in the sound of the
voice." == (Boehme, _The signature of all things_)
-=-=-
there's
a book by Thomas Calvino I've only heard about. deals with the
historical
city of Venice, Italy. The seven or so
chapters give
different
views of the same city. Written from
different perspectives.
The
multifaceted nature of things, I guess is the point.
but
what would the signature of God be?
what lies behind the veil?
what is
Kerouac after with his recordings of Neal.
From Diane's
excellent
elucidations, I wonder. [[need to look at Ginsberg's photos
more.
tied up
in nots, due process
"the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:23:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message
dated 97-07-16 06:24:30 EDT, you write:
<<
The last time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her
arm for a hot
shot of horse from a syringe dangling from her
purse.
Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I that
night, but she didn't seem to give a
shit. She had a date
to meet Lenny Bruce in front of City
Lights. So who shows
up?
Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert Goldman!
Strange Fruit, don't you think?
>>
That's
a great story. He always knew when. Her song about Monday was pulled
from
radio broadcasts because it was to have been causing too many suicides.
i can't
remember the title. i don't think it was Strang Fruit.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:51:05 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: carolyn...
i read
off the road not too long ago...what a book!
very moving! and in
the
liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
on a
mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
seem to
be. but there apparently was a movie
made based on the book...
anyway,
so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
me,
found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"
(interesting,
Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....)
It'll probably take a
couple
of months for me to get this book in my hands, though. From what I
understand,
this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
written
before Off the Road. So if she'd
already written one, why'd she
write
another account of the story? anyone
know? anyone here read this
book? I know, "read the book yourself &
you'll figure it out yourself..."
but
it's gonna be a few months before I get the book (and if it's from 1976
&
can't be found in the library anymore I highly doubt the neighborhood
bookstore
will have it). I just want other
people's opinions on the work,
if
anyone has any....kind of wanting to go into the movie theatre with a
vague
notion about the movie on the screen...
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi
A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:13:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: carolyn...
Comments:
To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<199707161951.PAA07783@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
diane
from
what i understand _heartbeat_ is simply an earlier draft of _off the
road_.
it was turned into a movie (starring nick nolte as neal, believe it
or
not...) and she then built & improved upon the book, beefing it up and
renaming
it _off the road_. i dont know if you really HAVE to seek it out
if
you've read _off the road_. can anyone else shine light on this?
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:51:13 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Heart Beat
Heart
Beat was a greatly abridged or excerpted version of Carolyn's
later
biography. If memory serves me well she
wasn't very pleased with
it. It may have had something to do with the
production of the movie but
I
couldn't be sure of that without doing a little research. If you've
read
Off the Road, I think it would be a waste of time to read "Heart
Beat"
except as historical curiosity or to study the text in relation to
the
final version which I agree is a model work of its kind.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:10:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In a
message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
<< at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
Chopping
wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
freeze.
Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
portent.
All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
that
they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
the
roping scenes.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:31:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Moccasins
just
picked up "Last of the Moccasins" at Borders Books...looking forward
to
this
with great relish!!
on the
way to the bookstore, i passed Warho's red painting of James Dean in a
gallery
window. anyone know the painting, and
if so what the Chinese
characters
mean?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:34:20 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: t-shirts
Content-Type:
text
Jeffrey,
I
received my t-shirts yesterday, a day after Michael Nally's e-mail post
to the
beat-l, and I agree with him.
I have
had business dealings with you since the time of your very first
catalog,
so I am more familiar than most people with the quality and
integrity
of your enterprise. The printing on the shirt is certainly less
than
ideal, but I cannot in all conscience allow you to absorb the costs
for my
order.
I
appreciate the honesty and rare business morality in offering the shirts
for
free and in assuming the burden yourself.
One of
the striking qualities of the beat-l group is its sense of community
(with a
few glaring exceptions) and mutual support, reminiscent for me of
the
late '60s. Your original role in this project was non-profit; from my
perspective,
I cannot contribute to the venture's turning into a loss for
you.
Therefore,
I am returning your refund check to you. Thanks though for the
gesture.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
7/16/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:52:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a
message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
<<
I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A
POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER!
Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens
wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a.
Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 97-07-15
20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > >
> > > << Hello, I had a
question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > > texts. I am taking summer
course on the Beat greats and we are doing
a
> > > presentation on Women beats.
I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
the
> > > time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and
novels
> > > to find mention of her.
>>
> > >
> > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > C. Plymell
> >
> > dear plymell:
> > >
> > what the hell does "oh fer
chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > there and how dare some mere
student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > response brings up a "oh for
chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > enough question. this list is,
among other things, for such questions
and
> > questings.
> >
> > if you are not --any of
you--interested in responding in some
> > constructive way to her question,
just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > snotty repost from deep left
field!!!!
> >
> > steve
> >
> > (who is, in all forthrightness,
lusha's professor in the course she
> > mentions---and i feel guilty about
having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > message to the beat-l list--they
are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > they will talk with you and care
about some of the same things you care
> > about"; i, for one, do not see
her question as asking someone to do her
> > work for her; she has been
interested enough to go out here on the list
> > for views and news and knowledge;
don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > snotty snit.)
> >
> > s.s.
> >
>
> Lusha... >>
Thanks
Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
Kaufman
wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
dastardly
dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
were on
the list of what first went through my head.
But I
hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
hopfully
provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
would work the beat association into the thesis
from the beat's point of
view, rather than to lump everything together for
future readers. Seems to
be
enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
connections(no
pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
take
from anthor list member's story. There
were very few heavy users among
the
beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
anectodal
at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
wrong,
though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
well.
Charley
Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970716050158.1aeff820@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>
Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
>
and had been lovers, at least at times.
isn't it possible
>
homosexuality played a role in their rift?
>
>
Mike Rice
>
mrice@centuryinter.net
Cassady
and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to
Cassady
(hell he wrote two books about him!)
But he was hetero in the
extreme
from what I've read.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:31:14 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970716110753_-1158306363@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It is
also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately
interefered
with Jack's relationships with his beat friends. She
routinely
opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and
apparently
took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she
thought
was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal
for
similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from
reading
the letters)
It is
sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less
completely
and filter much of what he knew of his old friends. She
probably
would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to
not
communicate with them.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:28:25 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
the
last words of Charles Plymell's autobiography (from the net):
"Tomorrow I have to go to the
unemployment office."
very
nice CP. very nice. Filled in a lot of the blanks and gave a
nice
perspective. Am battling my own sycophant tendancies, by
writing this.
Just
wanted to publically say, "thanx" for writing all that down. all
that
down.
the
words of Jello Biafra, whom I curse and praise, come to mind:
"if you love your fun, die for
it!" (from the song _Lard_)
oh, I
never wanna be a poet, Douglas
"the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:32:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paterson Falls and Bohemian Rises
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Well, I'd have to say I agree and
disagree. A haiku is sort of like a
spontaneous
orgasm, in that it is quick, unprompted, out of nowhere. You
know,
when you're having a really good dream... *ahem* *grin*
> Something such as Howl is like
excellent sex, the whole show, naked,
mirrors
on the ceiling, the passion building and building to the poit of
release.
> Then there's works such as Mexico City
Blues.... an all-night lovemaking
session
involving multiple orgasms.........
> Yours in depravity,
> Sara
>
>
>
>At
02:29 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Pete
wrote:
>>>
The second thing spun off from the first and doesn't pertain to posts.
>>>
It's about poetry in general and about what I never liked about the
>>>
Beats in general. If people can come here and dis my gods, well dammit
>>>
I'm gonna give it back. I know there aren't any absolutes, but do others
>>>
know that?
>>
>>I
may be one of those who dissed your gods (Ezra?) and I don't
>>mind
you giving it back. This is a pretty
good paragraph:
>>
>>>
> >I realize this goes against the values of some Beat poets and their
>>>
> >sycophants. Personally, I never went for the masturbatory approach to
>>>
> >writing. Seems to mistake the product with the process, IMO. Sex isn't
>>>
> >about cumming, it's about fucking; and writing isn't an explosion of
>>>
> >words in a dionysian frenzy, it's all the thoughts around arranging
>>>
> >those words, and living those ideas, making the song, singing it. Not
>>>
> >the record, but the song. And even if masturbation is a good metaphor,
>>>
> >then I say the poem is not the cum but the rubbing.
>>
>>And
I don't feel compelled to either agree or disagree. You made
>>your
point and I hear you. I'd say the flip
side is this: spontaneous
>>writing
is an attempt to capture the joy of writing inside the piece
>>itself. And joy is what is too often missing in the
snootier,
>>stricter,
more academic writing of our times.
Beat writing may
>>be
cheap sex, but at least they got the joint jumpin' ... more
>>than
I can say for Ezra ...
>>
>>And
I hope we can all feel free to dis each other's gods as much
>>as
we want -- let's just not start dissing each other. It's a
>>big
difference.
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------
>> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>>
>> Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
>> (the beat literature web site)
>>
>>
Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
>> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>>
>> ###################################
>>
>> "Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
>> -- Bob Dylan
>>-----------------------------------------------------
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:28:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Johnson or SHIT ?? Charley is ...............
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you R a
Johnson ! ! !
The
Committee
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
> ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A
POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
> MATTER!
Calm down, people! *grin*
>
> Sara Feustle
>
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a.
Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a message dated 97-07-15
20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > > >
> > > > << Hello, I had a
question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > > > texts. I am taking summer
course on the Beat greats and we are doing
> a
> > > > presentation on Women beats.
I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
>
the
> > > > time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and
>
novels
> > > > to find mention of her.
>>
> > > >
> > > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > > C. Plymell
> > >
> > > dear plymell:
> > > >
> > > what the hell does "oh fer
chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > > there and how dare some mere student
ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > > response brings up a "oh for
chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > > enough question. this list is,
among other things, for such questions
>
and
> > > questings.
> > >
> > > if you are not --any of
you--interested in responding in some
> > > constructive way to her question,
just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > > snotty repost from deep left
field!!!!
> > >
> > > steve
> > >
> > > (who is, in all forthrightness,
lusha's professor in the course she
> > > mentions---and i feel guilty about
having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > > message to the beat-l list--they
are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > > they will talk with you and care
about some of the same things you care
> > > about"; i, for one, do not see
her question as asking someone to do her
> > > work for her; she has been
interested enough to go out here on the list
> > > for views and news and knowledge;
don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > > snotty snit.)
> > >
> > > s.s.
> > >
> >
> > Lusha... >>
>
Thanks Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
>
Kaufman wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
>
dastardly dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
>
were on the list of what first went through my head.
>
But I hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
>
hopfully provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
>
would work the beat association into
the thesis from the beat's point of
>
view, rather than to lump everything
together for future readers. Seems to
> be
enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
>
connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
>
take from anthor list member's story.
There were very few heavy users
among
>
the beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
>
anectodal at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
>
wrong, though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
>
well.
>
Charley Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:43:13 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: jk's character portrayl
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the
recent thread of neal not liking the way that jack described him
in on
the road, made me think that how did the other m.c. in jack's
books
like the way they were described? in particular i would like to
know
what gary synder thought of japhy ryder and the dharma bums.
thanx~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:56:57 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CD6BA1.995ECD76@scsn.net>
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Who is
this source? someone who knew
Jack? I think if Jack had had any
major
gay affairs, he'd have writtena bout them because he wrote about
almost
every major experience he had in his life.
Ginsberg
has been quoted has saying that Jack was not gay or bi, but that
when
they were young and had just met, they *experimented* a little with
oral
sex. I dont think this makes Jack gay
or bi, guess it depends on
interpretation.
Although
if Jack *was* privately gay or bi, it might explain his outright
homophobia
concerning Allen...whom he constantly ragged upon about his
homosexuality.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:51:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-16 19:07:06 EDT, you write:
<<
Neal ever dressed formally
enough to actually don spats.
>>
I
haven't seen the post yet. The dandiest I saw Neal was when he and Peter
Angel
came to my collage show at the Batman gallery on Filmore, SF. They had
been to
the Goldwater ' 64 convention at the cow palace and were wearing
straw
hat jackets and canes. Looked and acted like yankee doodle dandies.
Neal
had no wardrobe, belongings in a
cardbord box. Tapes of his past lives
from
his meduim in Palo Alto, belts, a change of levis, white T-shirt, jocky
shorts,
socks, penny loafers and an old sports coat. I tink this simplicity
was because
he didn't want to waste time deciding what to wear. I was just
the
opposite, leading him to say I had a problem with time since i would have
to fuss
over what to wear. Oh yeah, his railroad pocket watch and a grocery
back of
weed, a shoe box for cleaning the weed and a pocket full of pills.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:15:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
Are you
going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
having
to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
literary
genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
understand.
Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published him-- even
without
the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
scraped
up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
at an
Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce
ruined American literature. The
meeting
had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a
decade
or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
politics,
etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
though
for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
dinner
when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:23 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: CVEditions@aol.com
In-Reply-To:
<970716002007_410349889@emout02.mail.aol.com>
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Point
taken...thanks.
Tracy
On Wed,
16 Jul 1997 CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
> carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement
over money?
>
> Tracy >>
>
I'd guess that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
>
Unless, of course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
> C
Plymell
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: President's Sychophant Committe on
NEA Funding
As they
say down in Arkansaw..
"makes
my ass wanna dip snuff"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Moccasins and Joyce
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
>
with
>
having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
>
read
>
literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I
>
can't
>
understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published him--
>
even
>
without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
>
few other
>
scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
>
onetime
> at
an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce
ruined American literature.
>
The
>
meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official"
text
> for
a
>
decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
>
religion,
>
politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
>
genius,
>
though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
> at
a
> dinner
when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
>
other.
> CP
Charles:
I just
went down to the local library and checked out Ulysess. I own,
but
never really read Portrait of an Artist.
Good question?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Robert Hass
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While
in the library, I was looking through the Poetry section and saw
some
books by Robert Hass. A good friend of
mine who built my house is
named
Robert Hass. So, I checked out Praise
and Sun Under Wood. I
might
even read them. Does anyone care to
make a comment about Hass'
work
either on line or back channel?
Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:30:19 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins & Ulysses
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
>
having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
>
literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
>
understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published him-- even
>
without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
>
scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
> at
an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce
ruined American literature. The
>
meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official"
text for a
>
decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
>
politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
>
though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
>
dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
> CP
Imagine
it was a pretty loud conversation between those two silent men.
I am
begining Joyce's Ulysses. July 16
seemed like a good day to begin
a book
about June 16.
I sat
on the crapper and read along until something about a jesuit
injection
turned my head sideways, twisted me upside down, and burroughs
shook
the shit out of me.
After i
recovered i shaved and showered and headed to the filling
station
where i started again and made it all the way to the old Woman's
entrance
where i had a vision of Gaia that swallowed me whole.
Tomorrow
is another day
and so
i will once again brave the first chapter skimming up to the
entrance
of the old Woman and moving forward like a blind mule on a
hillbilly
holler.
Luckily
i have a wonderful tour guide for the journey in Diane Carter
and
many bodyguards including Doug and Sherri and it sounds as if Bentz
is
leaning towards this book as well.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:45:14 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Thomas Wolfe and Kerouac and VOC
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A week
or so ago, I pointed out in the food scene where Kerouac
acknowledeged
that his work was derivative of Thomas Wolfe by throwing
Of Time
and the River into the middle of the food sequences. I know
that
one of Wolfe's most famous pieces is the description of
Thanksgiving
dinner in his Mother's boarding house.
I think it is in
Look
Homeward Angel thought.
I kinda
thought that this tacit acknowledgement of Wolfe would have
drawn
some comments. But it did not. So, I went down to the library
(as you
all know from the last two posts) and checked out Of Time and
the
River. I did find one passage that
struck me as being a point of
reference:
>From
Page 357 of Charles Scribner's Sons, 1935 (BTW, this version is 912
pages
long)
"What would you like to
eat?" she now says meditatively. "How about a
nice
thick steak," she said juicily, as she winked at him. "I've got
the
whole half of a fried chicken left over from last night, that you
can
have if you come over!--Now it's up to you!" she cried out again in
that
almost hard challenging tone, as if he had shown signs of
unwillingness
or refusal. "I'm not going to urge
you, but you're
welcome
to it if you want to come.--How about a big dish of string
beans--some
mashed potatoes--some steamed corn, and asparagus! How'd
you
like some big wonderful sliced tomatoes with mayonnaise?--I've got a
big
peach and apple cobbler in the oven--do you think that'd go good
smoking
hot with a piece of butter and a hunk of American cheese?" she
said,
winking at him and smacking her lips comically. "Would that hit
the
spot? Hey?" she said, prodding him in the ribs with her big stiff
fingers
and then saying in a hoarse, burlesque, and nasal tone, in
extravagant
imitation of a girl they knew who had gone to New York, and
had
come back talking with the knowing, cock-sure nasal toneof the New
Yorker.
"Ah fine boys!" Helen said
in this burlesque tone. "Fine!
Just like
they
give you in New York!" she said.
Then turning away indifferently,
she
went down the steps , and across the walk towards her husband's car,
calling
back in an almost hard and agressive tone:
"Well you can do exactly as you
like! No one is going to urge you to
come if
you don't want to!"
It
seems to me that the passage in VoC on page 10 echos this and the
theme
of Jack and Thomas of being manipulated.
Anyway,
I know there is more of Of Time and the River in VoC, and I
think
it is in large part the inspiration of VoC.
But, I may be alone
here,
as I may have been one of the few willing to read all 912 pages of
Of Time
and the River.
Does
anyone else have a comment on this connection?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:59:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
In-Reply-To:
<970716221304_1048044493@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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At 7:15
PM -0700 7/16/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I
read or heard one time that at a
>
dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
don't
know Beckett that well. but maybe they met
later, after the dinner,
for a
little late night swimmin? They took
off all their clothes, jumped
in the
river and let the sound of distant heart beats
. . . reach
their
eyeballs.
read
Neal Cassidy's "letter to Jack Kerouac, September 10, 1950" tonight.
very
good. lots of eyeballs. other writers that mess with da balls:
patti
smith and tom verlaine (in _the night_).
Artaud? Bruneul. Dali.
oh,
lots of writers. Man Ray and his tick
tock of metric destruction (the
cutout
eye of his lover).
still
thinking about the relationship of seeing to hearing. Maybe people
like
Joyce and Beckett realize that small talk is so useless. Maybe a few
chosen
glances, or silent approvals was enough for them to <<speak with one
another??
> CP
= central pacific
dextrous
pervert
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: carolyn...
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Carolyn
C isn't crazy about Heart Beat and even less about the movie
(which
is awful). Heart Beat was basically the
more sensational parts
culled
out of what she was doing in "Off the Road." I was at a
screening
of the movie in Eugene that Kesey and Babbs walked out of
after
about five minutes. Sissy Spacek's
heart was in the right place,
and
Nolte might have made a decent Neal, but it didn't happen.
James
Stauffer
Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>
> i
read off the road not too long ago...what a book! very moving! and in
>
the liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
> on
a mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
>
seem to be. but there apparently was a
movie made based on the book...
>
>
anyway, so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
>
me, found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and
Neal"
>
(interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....) It'll probably take a
>
couple of months for me to get this book in my hands, though. From what I
>
understand, this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
>
written before Off the Road. So if
she'd already written one, why'd she
>
write another account of the story?
anyone know?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:27:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
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Charles,
Thanks
for the memories. "Misfits"
is such a great movie. Parts of it
were
filmed on my ex-wife's uncles ranch.
Last movie for Gable,
Marilyn,
and Monty Clift. Great Arthur Miller
screenplay and you can do
worse
than John Huston as a director. Some
wonderful magnatism there.
Can't
imagine modern Hollywood doing a movie with such wonderfully
broken
down stars, Clift falling apart in front of your eyes, Marilyn
heavy
and drugged, but radiant. If the young
un's want to get a feel
for
Neal and Jack's world that is not a bad place to start.
James
Stauffer
Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< at Gable looking at Marilyn
>>
>
Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
>
freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
>
portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
>
that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
>
the roping scenes.
> CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:04:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
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>
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
>
> Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
>
>with
>
> having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
>
> read
>
> literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science
>
>I
>
> can't
>
> understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative published
>
>him--
>
> even
>
> without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
>
>few
>
>other
>
> scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
>
> onetime
>
> at an Eng, Dept staff meeting that
Joyce ruined American literature.
>
> The
>
> meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the
"official"
>
>text
>
> for a
>
> decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
>
> religion,
>
> politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
>
> genius,
>
> though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
>
> at a
>
> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
>
> other.
>
> CP
> In Richard Ellman's biography of Joyce, he
writes, "Joyce sometimes went
out with Samuel Beckett, of whom he wrote to
his son, 'I think he has
talent,' a compliment in which he rarely
indulged...He made clear to
Beckett his dislike of literary talk. Once when they had listened
silently to a group of intellectuals at a
party, he commented, 'If only
they'd talk about turnips!'"
All of my life I have been compelled to study
James Joyce, I can't
leave Ulysses or Finnegans Wake alone, might
be some sort of
personality flaw on my part, definitely some
kind of intellectual
addiction; anyway I don't want to turn this
into a beat list discussing
Joyce, so for anyone who wants to read
Ulysses, with the help of me as a
guide and the comradeship of some fellow
beat-list members, backchannel
me.
We are on Chapter one this week and moving forward at a snail's
pace.
Everyone still has to finish VOC as well.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:13:08 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
******************************************************************************
********************
could
some one please help me out here? i am
very curious to figure out the
whole
sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
it is
obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
relationship.
but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have
homosexual
relations
with jack?
if not, how much did jack
know about neal and allen?
anyone
who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
satisfy
my curiousity, darlin's,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:15:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Jenn
Fedor wrote:
>
>
******************************************************************************
>
********************
>
could some one please help me out here?
i am very curious to figure out the
>
whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
>
> it
is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
>
relationship.
>
> but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have
homosexual
>
relations with jack?
> if not, how much did jack
know about neal and allen?
>
anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
>
>
satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,
>
>
jenn
To all
on this thread,
i'm not
certain what it is precisely, but something about this thread
makes
my spine tingle a bit.
i've
never been much of one for soap operatic visions and this current
string
of who fucked who(m?) in whose bathroom with who watching seems
...............
at least none of my fucking business.
perhaps
it is the puritanical notions still implanted in those from the
land
where Ike still rules our country and we pledge to the flag in the
morning
on our way to the filling station - but at least out here on the
prairie
such matters of intimacy seem something that be left sleeping
like
the dogs.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:36 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: book spree
MIME-Version:
1.0
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TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Went on
a net shopping spree a few weeks ago and the books are finally
starting
to arrive -- got a bunch of choice stuff (more than i can afford,
for
sure) and i'm totally thrilled:
_The
Joyous Cosmology_, Alan Watts. Been looking for this book for _years_,
and I
find 2 book dealers with good copies under $10! I bought both. Worth
it for
the psychedelic b/w photos inside, but I suspect that hearing Watts
talk
about his trips is going to be interesting too.
_Painting
& Guns_ by William S. Burroughs; _Auto Biography_ by Robert
Creely.
2 nice Hanuman books, not bad for $1.99 each even if the covers are
worn.
Read WSB's (actually I bought these in May, but still) and it's full
of
lotsa sharp writing.
_Natural
Enemies: Youth and the Clash of Generations_. A nice hardbound
book of
short pieces on that counter-culture thing by all our favorites,
including
Allen & Louis Ginsberg, Lionel Trilling, Norman Podhoretz, Henry
Miller,
McLuhan, Fuller, Eisenhower & Kennedy, etc.
_Ideas
and Integrities_, _Earth Inc._, Buckminster Fuller. The
to-be-expected
high-output comprehensive essays.
_First
Blues: Rags Ballads & Harmonium Songs 1971-74_, Ginsberg.
Autographed.
Wow, I've been looking for a copy of this sucker since '93 and
didn't
expect to get a signed one, but I did...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:32:41 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PS...
John:
My
Burroughs visit was not too private to share, I just haven't gotten around
to
completely recounting it, and all the circumstances that led up to it.
The friend with whom I traveled to Lawrence
and visited WSB has been
collaborating
with me on a story of this milestone adventure, but it's
progressing
very slowly in fits and starts, as we talk to and fax each other
to and
from Ann Arbor, MI where I live and Philadelphia. I have related some
of the
events in a sporadic, fragmentary way through some posts on the list,
you may
have run into some of them. The
lengthiest have been to Maya Gorton,
who has
recently unsubscribed, and were sent only to her rather than to the
list as
a whole. Anyway, your message is
another toggle to me to get going
and
fully recount this experience for posterity.
My participation in this
List is
turning out to be a great writing exercise for me, after a lifetime
of only
occasional and painfully produced works, there has been a steady flow
since I
signed on a few months ago, easily and without the self-consciousness
of
"writing" where I feel the Giants looking over my shoulder as I stare
at
the
blank page/screen. After working out
this way, I'm hoping that my skills
and
stamina will reach a point where I can tackle such projects as the WSB
story. My goal is to write installments and send
them regularly to the whole
list
until the story is told. Parallel with
that and as material from which
to
extract will be the continued collaborative effort, which may spill over
from a
factual, straightforward approach and qualify as a Beat/Gonzo piece in
its own
right. Just writing at length about
what I''m GOING to do and not
quite
getting around to it, expending the energy I should be using to
accomplish
it on describing its difficulty, is I think a time-honored method
and
part of the process itself.
As for
THE BLACK RIDER, I attended its premiere in the spring of 1990 in
Hamburg,
Germany. The friend who accompanied me
to the WSB visit and his
wife
were living there at the time, and this episode was part of a fairly
long
trip through various parts of Europe (yet another potential story).
There were rumors of an appearance by WSB,
but we never spotted him. From
what I
recall, the production was partly in English and partly in German.
Despite my hosts' attempts to translate for
me, I could not completely
understand
what was going on, and so my impression of it is compromised by
the
distance in time and the partial language barrier. I remember thinking
that it
was a heavy-handed Teutonic fable, complete with hunters in the
forest,
maidens, etc., put through a post-modern avant-garde wringer by
Burroughs,
Waits and Wilson. The sets and costumes
were remeniscent of the
German
Expressionist style. Burroughs' voice
came as a recording from
offstage,
especially in the first act. The
statement that still resonates
the
most with me is when he says "the first shot is always free" in his
not-quite-imitatable
world-weary drawl. I enjoyed and got a
laugh out of
WSB's
application of one of his maxims, distilled from junkys' street life,
to
actual bullets and guns, an ominous foreshadowing of the Mephistopholian
bargain
that the protagonist makes leading to his and others' doom. WSB's
fetish
for and historic misadventures with guns as much as syringes further
deepened
the resonance of this statement.
Although his direct participation
in the
production was very brief and occasional, his spirit seemed to be an
ingredient
within and behind the scenes of the whole production. So, with
the
limitations I've cited above, my opinion is that it was interesting (how
could
it not be with the involvement of these artists, especially WSB?), but
not
particularly profound or riveting. Even
just a touch of Burroughsian
schtick
greatly spiced it up. I acquired the CD
when it was released, and
enjoyed
the "bones" piece sung/narrated by WSB. I've never been much of a
Tom
Waits fan despite his being considered something of a neo-Beat figure, my
exposure
to him is limited and I'm not motivated to increase it now. Do you
think
it would be worth it?
At the
beginning of our visit, when I was in a state of almost speechless
adrenal
trauma, my friend mentioned that we had seen the premiere, as an
ice-breaker. WSB's response was: "I think Hamburg is the nicest city in
Germany,
don't you agree?", without commenting on the production itself or
its
importance, if any, to him. We both
unanimously and enthusiastically
agreed
with his assessment of Hamburg. There I
go again, another fragment.
It must
be very fun and interesting to teach a Beat course. Do you have any
other
poems or other writings such as the one you posted that led to our
first
corresponding? What are your favorite
works, and what would you
suggest
as the subject of an ongoing discussion, like the one going on
concerning
Kerouac's VISIONS OF CODY? Again, I
hope you're finding this List
worthwhile
to be involved in, as I am.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:45:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Homosexuality
I
wouldn't say that Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual. Seems to me
that
they were both heterosexual guys who experimented occasionally with
homosexuality. For Cassady, this might have been a result
of his
spending his adolescence in reform schools. Unlike Ginsberg, though,
Cassady
and Kerouac were primarily drawn to women.
I don't think I'd
refer
to Cassady and Ginsberg as "lovers," either, though Ginsberg
certainly
can be said to have loved Cassady in the sense that term
implies. I doubt, however, that Cassady ever felt
that kind of love.
Basically,
Cassady, I think, wanted to be Allen's friend.
He saw Allen
as a
mentor, looked up to him, and wanted to please him. If that meant
sex
once in a while, that was okay, at least early on in their
friendship. All of this talk about whether someone is
heterosexual or
homosexual
doesn't mean very much in the end but it is interesting if
merely
as gossip. Martin Duberman's play
"Visions of Kerouac" makes a
plausible
case for Kerouac being a repressed homosexual.
The idea is
that
Kerouac's repression of his homosexuality caused a lot of his pain.
It's
not an idea I buy but I have to admit Duberman makes an
interesting
case.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:04:37 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: cuputs
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Can we
talk about cut-ups? I want to make sure that I understand the
technique.
You
take a work, any work, that is written on paper. slice it down the
middle.
reassemble the work so that the words and phrases are scrambled, and
retype.
new meanings and hidden thoughts may emerge.
Is this
the gist of the cut-up? I recall reading the story of Bill cutting a
book
down the middle with an axe or similar instrument, reassembling and
there
it was... but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert
words
and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the
paper?
(I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like
tape
transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)
I want
to know if there is a difference between scrambling all of the
_words_
in a text and scrambling all of its _characters_. I mean, I know
there
is a _difference_ and each method will produce different words and a
different
text (the first will usually contain the same words as the
original
text with the exception of those words split by the cut), but are
both
products of the "cut-up" technique, or does the cut-up require that
the
same words generally be used (thus bringing all words used in the old
text
along and into the new one, all the words and their
meanings/connotactions,
as opposed to all the _characters_)? Or is one
simply
going deeper than another? Discuss.
WHAT I
AM GETTING AT: I have a computer program called "an" that has
potential
literary value in pursuing further studies along this cut-up line.
"an"
takes as its standard input any text -- pick a word, any word. The text
could
be a book-length ASCII text file, or it could be a short word or
phrase.
Then an takes this input and processes it, comparing every possible
permutation
of characters with the system dictionary; every time a set of
valid
words (ie words that appear in the system dictionary) is generated, it
outputs
this to the standard output (screen or file), a line at a time. As
such,
an is not just a simple anagram generator -- as its author originally
intended
-- but a fast, accurate cybernetic cut-up machine. (I am also aware
of the
excellent cutup program at <http://www.bigtable.com/cutup/>. This one
retains
words, and even duplicates them to fill a page (or screen) -- yet
another
method.)
The
amount of memory required to generate anagrams is in exponential
relation
to the length of the text, so using an to cut up texts of any
significant
length must be done on a machine with more memory than mine has
(81MB
RAM), but I suppose this is a temporal problem, as the relation to
computing
power and its cost is also behaving exponentially according to
Moore's
Law.
Should
there be an interest, I will post results of my findings to the list.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this
information is
email
stutz@dsl.org free and may be
reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:31:59 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
Dear
Jenn:
Here's
what I know from my studies of works by and about the Beats re:
"....sexual
relations between Jack, Neal and Allen..." as you asked about in
your
post:
Ginsberg
was very infatuated with Neal, his "Adonis of Denver" as he
described
him in HOWL. It was apparently a
one-way street, Neal was
straight. But Neal's great regard for Ginsberg as a
literary mentor/soul
mate,
and also, perhaps, his hustler-exploitive instinct, led him to have sex
with
Ginsberg. Their relations were sporadic
and led to AG's frustration, he
implored
NC to join him in an ongoing relationship, while NC was only
accomodating
his friend without really being into it.
Neal's marriage to
Carolyn
only made matters more tense and frustrating, and in an infamous
episode
recounted in her (highly recommended) memoir OFF THE ROAD, among
other
sources, she discovered AG and her husband having sex together in their
bedroom,
and promptly evicted AG. Immediately in
the wake of this, AG
skulked
back to San Francisco and met Peter Orlovsky, who became his steady
partner
through AG's death. This helped to cool
down AG's essentially
unrequited
obsession for NC. A poignant and very
sad description of one of
the
last encounters between AG and NC is given by AG in one of his poems (I
can't
recall the name of it and don't have access to my collection right now,
I'll
look it up later and get back to you if I find it). A burned-out, soon
to be
dead NC and AG are in bed together, and AG feels the cold, shaking NC.
I think that AG's obsession for NC, like a
grain of sand that becomes a
pearl,
was an inspiration to AG's creativity even as it caused him pain and
frustration. And as regards creative inspiration, AG
helped NC as much as
anyone,
including Kerouac, was able to, but NC's historic role in the Beat
saga
will always be more as a subject and inspirer of others, especially AG &
JK,
than as a creator in his own right.
As for
JK, he was heterosexual like his alter ego NC, and the two of them
never
had a sexual relationship as far as can be determined. But their
relationship
went far beyond a typical friendship, what some might argue
beyond
sex into a realm of eroticising and mytholigizing that exceeds what
many
outright sexual relationships have stirred.
AG managed to have sex
occasionally
in their early days with JK (he seems to have had his way with
everyone),
and again I think that JK's respect for AG's creative genius and
their
affinity for each other on a soul-to-soul level carried the day. I
once
read ( I can't remember where) an anecdote from near the end of JK's
life
that also shows the whimper coda of a collaboration that had begun with
such a
bang, as with AG and NC above. A
drunken, passed-out JK awoke to find
AG and
Peter Orlovsky blowing him. "What
are you doing, I'm not queer?!" he
asked,
startled. "We just want you to be
happy, Jack", they said as they
looked
up from what they were doing. Nothing
could cheer up poor JK by then.
As to your question of how much JK knew about
AG & NC, I recall from some of
the
letters between JK & AG that JK was aware of it and tried to help AG sort
things
out. AG as usual wore his heartache on
his sleeve, and shared it
intensely
with JK and others.
The
tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
figures
is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
lives
and works. Another important
relationship was that between AG &
William
S. Burroughs, especially WSB's failed attempt to "schlup" (completely
absorb
and be absorbed by) AG in NYC in 1953.
But that's another story, and
not
related to what you directly asked. I
hope that you find this
information
helpful, and keep digging further into the Beats and their
collaborations,
creative and otherwise.
Regards,
Arthur
S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:27:39 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Poem...Poetic Forum
MIME-Version:
1.0
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haven't
written in a while...can't keep up w/ flood of email...sorry...
thought
i'd share a piece i've been working on, looking for poetic
community
beautiful San Francisco rememberances...can't seem to find the
poets
where i live: deep south louisiana
backwoods isolation...now that i
know
there are great souls to talk to here (Charles, Pamela, Bill, etc.)
maybe i
can find some sense of words words words loving...tell me what you
think:
Nineteen
Ninety Six
And
here's how it went:
Picking
up cigarette rag,
blonde stranger and best friend at
concerts
back to her room for night of drunk
love - kissing laughing losing my
cherry
ha ha ha -
we made love while i dreamt of
changing the world and
you dreamt of your
boyfriend
You and
him at Yancey and Sergio's tripping crazy (me drunk),
talking about big brother government
CIA and fixing the world through
machines...
Listening
to you yell and scream and wail about sexism and
how we're men and can't understand you
woman.
First I
listen to you and your first girlfriend lover,
not turned on like I thought I'd be,
angry because I thought you
didn't love me,
angry because you lied to me,
angry because I didn't
understand you.
Then
roles reversed, you listen about my first boyfriend lover,
crying because I didn't wanna tell
you,
not hearing me say that I
didn't like it,
not hearing me say that I was
sorry I didn't tell you,
not hearing me say that this
was the end of the ride.
Think
maybe I'll be fine in Denton.
Stumbling
drunk up dormitory stairs,
half bottle of tequila in me,
sensitive poet type,
winking at red headed angel,
at IHOP 3AM wondering
"what's wrong with
Josh," almost passing out over
half-smoked cigarettes
coffee cholesterol.
Making
love wine-induced to strangers later to be friends
in room inhabited by Buddha scripture
scrolls and
prophecies by Allen
listening to eastern hymns of roommate I still don't
know.
Handwriting
read to me by modern-day Mexican saint
in hallways of paint & sweat &
marijuana & alcohol
ticketed in park trespassing
1 down, lost to law
2 more down, lost to
paranoia,
damn glad they
didn't find no shit.
Sitting in police station 6AM coming
down from cloud,
coming up with $300 to bail him
out -
brother to my
red-headed angel.
Dancing
mad rhythms at first gay bar with brothers and
crazy girlfriend moving LSD vibrations
of cosmic soul thumping sexy house
beats
wondering where sleep honest
love tonite?
No
class, Spanish not worth it - decide to write instead,
meditate instead, drink instead
mad nights outside dorm
yackety yacking about sex drugs
religion politics ya
ya ya,
parties at maniac houses flirting still attached -
nope, wait, broke up
with her: so, you wanna go out?
Single
rose on car seat, dinner at fine Italian restaraunt
with an end in a smill...no kiss no
hold hands -
just an angel to be close to, someone
to hold.
closest
i've ever gotten to bear all soul writing...still working...tell me
what
you think.
Ryan
Stonecipher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:35:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
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Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
The tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
>
figures is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
>
lives and works.
>
Regards,
>
>
Arthur S. Nusbaum
Just as
the weather changes overnight here in Kansas my mind twists
full-circle. In the event that the interest in the
intimate details is
along
the lines suggested by Arthur here i would think it makes
sigificant
sense to look into the matter.
Where
the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the
lives
of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:37 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: To Derek Beaulieu RE:
Dada-cutup connection
Derek:
A
belated response to your post to me re:
Dadaist ancestry of cutups. It
serves
me right for opining on this before having read EVERYTHING by and
about
WSB & his collaborations with Gysin-
among the very few items I
haven't
yet read is THE THIRD MIND, but I own it and will duly get to it and
see if
a reference to dadaist forebears is there.
As soon as I read your
post, I
remembered something else relevant to this issue- In his very early
years
(circa age 20, mid-1930's), BG was living in paris and directly
participating
in the Surrealist movement, which really was a movement at that
time
and place, dictated to by its self-appointed leader, Andre Breton,
through
his SURREALIST MANIFESTO and ongoing domination over the movement and
its
members. BG was to have contributed to
some major Surrealist exhibit,
but his
works were removed at the insistence of Breton just before it opened,
and I
think that ended BG's official involvement with the Surrealists.
Apparently Breton was very temperamental and
easy to displease, his wrath
also
came down on Dali and others. I've
always wondered why the figures of
such a
free-spirited, innovative movement allowed themselves initially to be
dominated
and politicized by such a prima donna.
I
should probably study him further, he must have had some sinister charisma
that
held sway with people who were themselves such independent mavericks.
Anyway,
since the Dadaists directly preceded and were in many cases the same
people
who went on to become the Surrealists, BG was directly exposed to and
connected
with Dada/Surrealism, and there MUST have therefore been an
influence,
direct or indirect, conscious or not, on the cutups by these
movements,
even if BG referred to the cutups as a discovery brought about by
a
"happy accident".
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: To Derek Beaulieu RE: Dada-cutup connection
Comments:
To: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970717105237_127888456@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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arthur
sure it
was a happy accident - but so much of frottage (rubbings of
texture),
collage (cut&paste) and cut-up is happy accident and
celebration
of the nonscencical and unexpected juxtapositioning of images.
thanks
for reminding me about gysin and the surrealist movemnt. i do
believe
that you are right that he was associated by breton (and co) in
the
20's & 30's (i think) in paris. this i guess would be post dada, early
surrealist
(if my timelist memeory serves). for a great biography on
breton
check out _revolution of the mind_
i think that the arguement that dada
influenced wsb 7 bg is strong
, but
where can it be taken? (ah theres the rub, right?) can its influence
be seen
thru-out wsb's work?collage as a theme as well as a technique for
construction
- so i was thinking: the obsession with the body and
graft,disease,
etc - could it be seen as a sort of "biological cut-up"
reassembling,
recutting - arriving at new conclusions and new reults by
reassembling
the human form?
hmmm
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:25:12 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@aol.com>
In-Reply-To:
<970717011307_-823358633@emout02.mail.aol.com>
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I guess
there is or has been a tendency to want to clean up Jack
Kerouac's
image for public consumption. Jack was
a fringe figure in
society
during his life but predicatably, his writing has outlived him
and his
myth/legend will grow larger as the years go by.
A while
back in this group, it was pointed out that a new book about
Kerouac
spoke bluntly about Jack's drug use.
Some in this group from
Lowell
got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american
hometown
hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser.
Jack
probably did have plenty of sex with both sexes, he was promiscious
and
adventurous. He also did heroin and
speed for a number of years.
>From
all I've read about Jack, there was a time in his life where he
wanted
to try everything and do *everything* and go *everywhere* Part of
the
beat spirit.
I dont
think he could have been the writer he was had he not been open to
these
experiences. It cana lso be argued
though that maybe he lived too
much
too soon, and wouldnt have died an alchoholic recluse if he felt any
other
experiences were still out there. At
any rate, the question of
Jack's
sexuality is not important anymore. I
dont see any need to dwell
on it.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:29:21 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Post Office
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1.0
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Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z red
itt,
lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
_The Western Lands_ is neckst.
Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer
xists.
James M.
Meye
noz runz. Eye doent. ""
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:32:10 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970717111559.8780A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>
Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast
> as
this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as
> a
drug abuser.
And of
course they're ignoring the fact that gross drug abuse has always
been an
all-american hometown activity.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:14:11 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: John A. Gregorio
Comments:
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version:
1.0
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7bit
Hi. Me
again. Thadeus from Second Beat. The response from the magazine has
been
great, thanks guys. But there is some confusion about one of the
orders.
I need to get in contact with a Mr. John A. Gregorio to discuss his
order.
If John or anyone who can get in touch with him is reading this,
e-mail
me at <2ndbeat@telapex.com>
Thanks,
Thadeus
D'Angelo, Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:56:02 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: welcome to the ninties, again
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in richards
post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
said
that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
everything,
be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
inch
nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
everywhere
i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
to do
something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
connection
later.
i was
talking with a friend who told me when she was in college, she
took a
course about how the generations generally repeat themselves
every
forty years inwhat they do and in general beliefs and feelings
toward
society. this can be proven true. for example, in the forties
most
everyone had a family and settled down. but not people neal
cassady
and some other members of the post- war generation.
and in
the eighties, again most people did the wife and kids thing,
but
some people did not (your avid skater/ punk rocker). in the
fifties,
some people started a family and some people became beatniks
and embraced
(excuse me for using alduos huxley's title) a brave new
world.
and now you may be thinking that because of the ninties, i may
be
wrong. if you think that in the ninties jack doesn't ever happen
and
never will- look undergroun for the now named "elctronictcia".
this
style of music reminds me of the all-nite jazz shows that jack
and
neal went to even more so because some people goto all-nite
techno
music raves. so all i'm really saying is that we are
experiencing
a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
stereotypical,
i was not a conscious organism until the late
eighties)
does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: ecstatic bunny tracks leading to bleepy
alien music
Mime-Version:
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hello
beetles....
another
day, another twiddle of the thumbs, or perusal of my dated copies
of NME,
or etc, as i wait for the msgs to download from this great list in
the
sky, or at least across it...i scan through half or so, having to do
with
one or a combo of 4 things: Joyce, VOC, the mysterious rift between
kerouac
and cassady, or that person asking about Lady Day...(Hey Sara F,
i'll
tell ya, your post concerning the sex/lit correllations really kicked
me in
the tail though...)
Realised
i haven't posted to this little list for, hm, close to 2 months
now.
not very much like me, i must say. i suppose my motivation, in this
case
lack-there-of, in not posting to the list, has to do mainly with all
the
kerouac-related discussion. Never got into him. Bought a few of his
books
and put them all down, even the infamous 'On The Road'...I suppose i
am
strictly a Burroughs man, save for 'Howl' and 'Kaddish' which i loved,
and
were my first forays into this beat world, along with B.Miles's AG
biography,
which i found in a used bkshop for $2...why do i tell you all
this? i
feel like writing. this breaks maybe a block that's been in place
longer
than i care to admit. I recall B.Gargan's post concerning the
purposes
of this list, but let's just say i left that msg next to an open
window
and it rained. really hard. but just this once...i know, i know,
delete
if you will.
I
remember reading a OneTwo combo of Ulysses and Naked Lunch after a car
accident
put me out of commission the year i was 17. i loved them both,
after
not understanding a single word. for some reason the language in them
showed
me there was more to words than just putting them together to create
scenarios
of death and suicide, some may laugh at the irony of this, but,
loving
life as i didn't, this showed me to love words as i could, their
viral
infliction/infection, the expresssion blessed....
17 was
a melodramatic year for me, it was. i took a pile of canvases
outside
one early morning, around 4 or so, and burned them next to the very
suburban
apartment building in which i shared a unit with my father.
plastic
burning was in my nose for what seemed like days, but was probably
just
hours....I threw away all my paint, didn't talk to people, drew pen
and ink
sketches maybe, but mostly mutilated pics of ppl and things into
collages,
around, about, and for words. i listened to angry music,'songs
about
garbage disposals written by jackhammers' to loosely paraphrase DC...
I wrote
one short story, about love through a sickness physical on one
side,
mental on another, about what the world showed me love to be, which
is
probably much different than what it has shown you all, as it is much
different
for all of us, individually, because that's what i see it, love,
to be,
though not nearly a tender thing for me, individual for all of us in
the
end. i could be wrong. we could all be wrong... but i finished this
piece,
and i read it out loud, at a reading, mostly among friends, and in a
small
place, and i sat down, still holding the printed papers, and as my
ass hit
the seat the thought hit my mind, softly, like a hammer wrapped in
cloth,
that i would never write like that again. not because i couldn't,
but
rather because i wouldn't, because, as someone we all know so well once
said,
it was just too dangerous.
..and i
haven't, that 17yr old day being near 6 years ago...I sit here
jacked
into this computer, listening to the bleepy alien music that i love,
that i
create, that i pretty much eat and breathe;
gives images of droves
of
bunnies hopping across technicolor fields of grass, towards the music,
attracted
by those unseen patterns that only some of us pick up on, the
disembodied
voices, the snatches of songs from other places or times,
etc...staring
at white text field remembering the last time i saw someone
that i
had once dearly loved, she asked me if i could get her ecstasy,
because
she had heard i knew all the dealers.
maybe
at this point i blink back tears. maybe at this point i hit 'send' or
discard'.
maybe at this point i remember i got her the x, putting it in her
palm
that secret way, hoping to myself that it was an acceptable substitute
for the
kind that her and i had shared for five years, and quickly giving
myself
a mental kick for being so fucking stupid/sentimental...
...there
are no words within a specific sphere. that sphere can be a good
or a
bad place to be. me? i haven't figured it out yet...i'll let you know
when i
do.
-z
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet
Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608)
285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:05:07 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
Comments:
To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
In-Reply-To:
<199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:
> in
richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
>
said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
> everything,
be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
>
inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
>
everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
> to
do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
>
connection later.
yup. a
common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
addiction
"wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
> so
all i'm really saying is that we are
>
experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
>
stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
>
eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
yeah
agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site
if
"indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this
information is
email
stutz@dsl.org free and may be
reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:32:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
In-Reply-To:
<199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
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those
involved in underground (so-called, in my opinion) movements are
often
reluctant to show/expose their roots.
at this
point, electronica is the media's machine. to info-ate the masses,
'electronica'
was a descriptive term used to define a style of electronic
music
coming primarily out of the uk and the west coast, characterised by
slow,
lazy breakbeats, bass tones and odd or experimental or hooky
synth
lines and various computer noises etc...minimal sample use, heavily
utilised
in the 'chill-out' rooms at raves in the early/mid 90s.
'electronica'
is now the media's catch-all term for anything not
guitar-bass-singer-drum
driven, anything usuing primarily electronic
equipment,
a turntable, what have you...record companies want to make
'electronica'
the next 'grunge'. look at The Prodigy, currently #1 album in
the
country...wow cs are pushin' hard, huh? me, i think it's funny. record
companies,
they don't realise the best 'electronica' is coming out of
bedrooms,
put out on record labels like the one a friend of mine runs out
of his
basement...but this is another discussion, sorry to all i've bored.
what i
want to address is the comparing of the jazz parties to the raves.
although
there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
often
overlooked in my opinion), the level of intellect at the old jazz
parties
as oppsed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: you talk,
you
listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
whatever...operative
word: talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the music.
you
can't really talk because the music is too loud. you dance some more.
you
'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a joke amongst
those
who actually do.
I love
both of these gatherings. i throw jazz parties and i throw rave
parties,
for different reasons.
cocktail/jazz
parties when i want to get together, talk, discuss, etc with
good
friends, strangers, what-have-you; raves when i want to dance my ass
off to
the music i love while smacked out on e (sometimes), usually with
the
same friends (heh)...there really is no intellectual level to raves,
unless
you're up there djing, or organising, or involved with the show.
otherwise
it is entertainment on an extremely base level...but who knows.
maybe
that's all those jazz parties were to Jack and Neal, so the whole
discussion
i've just had with myself is moot. but hey, it was still fun.
for me,
if not for all 209 of you...heh.
the
rennaissance? yeah sure, it's going on...it started with Kraftwerk (not
solely,
but they've been cited many times as huge influence on electronic
music),
and has been evolving ever since. those of us who make this kind of
music,
all kinds actually, we'll take it further i'm sure...
but i'd
like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's
not 50
years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...
-z
(yeah i
lost a bit a weight since my last post...)
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet
Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608)
285 6600