beat list 1997

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:27:49 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Power of a Poet (was Death of a Poet)

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>Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> I guess I'm concerned with [[1]] the power of the

> >poet via poetry upon the reader and the resulting actions.

> ><< Take this short poem

> >from Ginsberg:>> -- Good! an actual example to wring ourselves over!!

> >

> >> Who

> >> From Great Consciousness vision Harlem 1948 buildings standing in

> >> Eternity

> >> I realized entire Universe was manifestation of One Mind--

> >> My teacher was William Blake--my life work Poesy,

> >> transmitting that spontaneous awareness to Mankind.

> one mind --> Great Consciousness ---> Harlem 1948 buildings --->

> Eternity ---> realization of manifestation ----> ah, attribution (of

> Blake) ----> recognition (of life's work, Poesy) -----> purpose

> (transmitting spont awareness) ----> reception (by us, reading the

>poem)

> Is this his train of thought? seeing the building and realizing it's

> potential context, he attributes a social consciousness to his

> reminiscences of Blake and his life's work of poetry. Sees himself as

> the receptor, as the channel to transmit the past into the present.

> He's a high priest, then? speaking for god to all mankind?

I do not think it is so much a social consciousness as a visionary

consciousness. Mythic vision brought on by viewing the buildings, and

internally connecting it to Blake's prophetic visions, and in one instant

(separate from space/time), a moment of epiphany, enlightenment

connecting him, the poet, to the "universe as a manifestation of one

Mind." He sees himself as visionary poet, in the tradition of Blake (as

yes, a kind of high priest, speaking of his illumination for mankind to

understand. An archetypal high priest (poet) transmitting spontaneous

awareness to us, the reader.

> Well, my shackles go up when ever I see such generalizations (Universe,

> Mankind, Eternity). <<hm, thinking> But what is he looking at? He's

> looking at a 1948 building in Harlem. Don't know my history very well,

> but can we assume it wasn't a pretty site? Can we also assume this was

> a Ghetto of some kind? That he is saying such "social problems" have

> continued throughout the centuries? Well, why not just come out and

>say

> so?! Instead he makes himself a savior of sorts, sent out to save and

> redeem [perhaps?]. Our 1980s/1990s critical thought classes ask us to

> recognize our audience, to pick apart our motives. I don't want to say

> he was assuming the "white man's burden" because I don't know if this

>is

> applicable or not.

> But assuming he was declaring a burden to be fulfilled, let's now ask

> what POWER he levied towards this issue. How was it received? What

>was

> the "conversation" between him and this "great consciousness"? That's

> what I want to know. Or is it enough to cite the train of thought and

> the parameters for discourse? [probably]

> If one form of artistic power must be "acceptable" and another one not,

> then yes, I would prefer god to speak and have us all hash out the

> details amongst ourselves. Let us dissent, argue, behave in

> chickenheaded ways. This form of power has the power to unite, to

> embody, and sustain - rather than condescend, betray, and manipulate.

> [at least I think that's what I mean... :-)]

I think the generalizations, Universe, Mankind, Eternity, are part of

the direct line to the way Blake wrote. I don't see any connections to

the black/white social problems. View of Harlem probably was because he

lived in Harlem for a time (can't remember the exact years, but it was

early on, like 40's). I don't see any direct social connection, only a

visionary consciousness-type one. I also don't see any conversation

between him and the great consciousness, only an immediate mental

recognition that the entire universe was manifestation of one mind, the

poet as the receptor of this knowledge, feeling it the poet's burden, so

to speak, to reveal this knowledge to us the reader. The ability to do

this, create this poem, is the power of the poet.

> ><<or, are we discussing power as in this passage from Transcription of

> >Organ Music,

> >

> >I want people to bow when they see me and say he is gifted with poetry,

> >he has seen the presence of the Creator.

> >And the Creator gave me a shot of his presence to gratify my wish,

> >so as not to cheat me of my yearning for him.>>

> Well, it's a strange thing to be seen with as an image that coincides

> with a yearning. It's a "complete" feeling. chest pumped out, eyes

> level, and perhaps even a few moments of satisfaction. This I have no

> problem with. And if I think multi-culturally and use "bow when they

> see me" as a sign of respect, then ok. BUT any other coercion, any

> other arrogant remarks will get extreme vibes from me. So yes, this

> second example is what I'm concerned about when I hear god associated

> with poetry and the act of creation. And all Ginsberg is asking for is

> recognition [not fame, fortune, record company deals, etc]. This I can

> live with. Would you characterize him as a "humble" man? And for what

> I know, I admire his support for other writers, poets, etc. That is

> power at its best. Yes?

> PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER or POWER TO THE PEOPLE>

Yes, I think he was speaking of recognition as respect for the gift a

poet has. Kind of back to the idea of speaking from god to all mankind,

the poet as the receptor. Still, however, I think evoking godlike

creation in the poem. As a person, I think Ginsberg was humble,

unselfishly promoting other writers and standing up with his voice for

many he saw as voiceless in society. Also one cannot avoid the other

human side of that equation, that he did become enthralled by his own

fame at times, which is where Charles Plymell's suggestion that he became

"a whore of Molach" to some extent. Makes me think also that in the

vision of Harlem image, somewhere there was a recognition of man's

creations, buildings, being monuments of Molach, perhaps an equivalent in

Blake's system of Urizen, and how man lifts the man-created city,

("pavement, trees, radios, tons, lifting the city to heaven which exists

and is everywhere about us") while it is the responsibility of the poet

to use his power to transmit an awareness of the eternal, one-mind

universe in opposition to the man-created universe.

I guess I see in this the poet as god using his power to create in his

words a vision that expands humanness; a good kind of power, however, one

that leaves the poet burdened with visionary knowledge and

responsibility.

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:21:05 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.

Duh... I forget. I thought it was so obvious. I think the Kronos CD is full

of cacaphony.

C. Plymell

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:23:53 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: References to T-shirt

Leon:

Thanks for mentioning my book. I'm writing a prologue for my new book which

goes from beat to gen-x.

Charley

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:27:46 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Role of the Poet <<craps>>

In a message dated 97-06-26 11:29:12 EDT, you write:

<< swore they'd bit into a piece a hoof in their BBQ Pork

> Sandwiches. >>

I notice they eat a lot of meat out west. It is the cheapest commodity. All

these farmers on their million dollar tractors paid for by the us government

farm welfare program to raise all this grain to transport freightened animals

in the night in rails cars and trucks across Kansas and Dakotas. And the

chickens in Arkansas strung by their millions of feet. Clinton and Colonel

Sanders are beginning to look alike. Maybe ate too many chicken feet in Hong

Kong.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:53:47 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Bukowski

In a message dated 97-06-26 08:00:49 EDT, you write:

<< Has anyone read much Bukowski? >>

John Fowler at Grist magazine had all his stories in little mags.(1960's)

Someone told me recently I was in his letters book from Black Sparrow. When I

first saw the mag Beat Scene from England, I was in with Buk on cover, I ask

why Buk was in it. I didn't know he hung with the beats. The Beat Scence is

more of a generic nostagia mag. Lot's of good coverage and uncoverage of the

beats. I mentioned Buk to Ferlinghetti once, asking why he didn't publish

him. I guess he has by now. That was after City Lights turned down Naked

Lunch. I don't remember his being around beats much except that great story

of Neal meeting him right before Mexico.(A.D. Winans) Good description of

Neal's driving by Buk. Good phots of Buk in the German mag I'm in with him

called "TIP magazin from Berlin. This was just as Carl Weissner was making

him famous with an early version of "Bar Fly."

Charles Plymell

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:00:46 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: References to T-shirt

In a message dated 97-06-26 12:33:15 EDT, you write:

<< BTW My apologies to Charles Plymell. Shouldn't have called him Charley,

since I haven't met him. However, there was no disrespect intended. The

shirt is mentioned in his page http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

> April Fool's Day 1997 S. Clay Wilson, Cherry Valley, NY During this

snow-storm'n, S.

> Clay Wilson visit to the Plymells, April, 1997, spawn the idea of the now

famous S. > Clay Wilson, BEAT-L, T-Shirt .... now available from Jeffrey

Weinberg owner of > Water Row Books. Jeffrey also sells Last of the

Moccasins.

Wilson's drawing for the shirt is pictured at the Waterrow page:

http://www.waterrowbooks.com/shirtpage.html

leon >>

No apology. I don't care what anyone calls me. The reason I print my name in

full is to make the distiction from my wife Pam, who also reads and replys on

the list. Sometimes we reply together when we don't fight.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:05:53 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Visionaries (was more ketchup)

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Michael Skau wrote:

> ...regarding Eliot's visionary qualities--I see him as resembling the

> mystic's "dark night of the soul" (St. John of the Cross). "Prufrock"

> concludes with the mermaid vision of escape from his drowning in the

> world around him (I think Marie quoted the passage); _The Waste Land_

> creates an apocalyptic world which has a number of significant

>parallels

> to that of _Howl_, and the message of the thunder offers a trace of

>hope

> in the sterile land. Part II of "Ash Wednesday" begins, "Lady, three

> white leopards sat under a juniper-tree / In the cool of the day,

>having

> fed to satiety / On my legs my heart my liver and that which had been

> contained / In the hollow round of my skull. And God said / Shall

>these

> bones live?" Is there a definition of _visionary_ which this does

>satisfy?

> All 4 voices of the _Four Quartets_ also provide the spiritual visions,

> particularly at the end of Little Gidding, where the sins of the garden

> are purified and redeemed by the fire and the rose.

You do make a compelling argument for Eliot as a visionary. Enough so

that I need to reread some Eliot before responding specifically to your

points. Hope to get to it this weekend. I am very interested in

discussing what people think is visionary and how Ginsberg and any other

poets of the century present these qualities (don't mean to exclude

visionary qualities of Kerouac or Burroughs either). Does being a

visionary imply not only the idea of the prophetic voice but also a

vision that links a higher consciousness(outside of time) and a social

consciousness (in time), i.e. Blake's knowledge applied to the path of

Albion/England and Ginsberg's knowledge applied to the path of America.

Does the "dark night of the soul" not also necessitate that the

struggler's/writer's vision incorporate a positive response that

illuminates one to the plight of society, as well as to the

mental aspect, (above-and-beyond) awakening of consciousness as in the

possibilities of the universe? Are visionary poets simply conduits of

mythical/mythic knowledge and how is that shaped by their personal

experience? Sorry for all the heavy questions in a row, sounds a little

overwhelming now as I reread it.

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:26:56 +0000

Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Subject: Early years

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Douglas wrote:

> Yes, but can a poet exist soley? alone without recognition? Before

> they got published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the

> beats "poets"? Or were they just a bunch of educated whacks? Before

> every word became sacred, before the eyes of the world became them, I

> wonder what the early years were like. Any reading recommendations??

> Something akin to Norman Mailer's "portait of picasso as a young man"

> would be great.

For early years, simple biographies are good. "Ginsberg", by Barry Miles

(he also wrote Burroughs bio - haven't read it yet). Especially for

Ginsberg, his bio opens his poetry up tremendously = many of the "who"s

in "Howl" are identified, and the whole family story is clarified for

better reading of "Kaddish".

As to the early years, they are probably very much like any of yours -

that is to say, if writing is all.

Joseph Neudorfer

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:32:49 +0000

Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Subject: War

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Ksenija wrote:

> it doesn't matter where you live

> but HOW.

Good stuff.

I take it for granted you are an artist. How have <<war, protests...>>

affected your creations?

Joseph Neudorfer

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:25:38 -0700

Reply-To: mike@infinet.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject: Re: Bukowski

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> Neal's driving by Buk. Good phots of Buk in the German mag I'm in with him

> called "TIP magazin from Berlin. This was just as Carl Weissner was making

> him famous with an early version of "Bar Fly."

Charles:

Can you recall aproximately what year or issue of "Tip" magazine from

Berlin you were in? Your "Bar Fly" time reference went right by me as I

have not read Bukowski. (yet)

Thanks.

-Mike

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:18:56 +0000

Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Subject: Visionary poetry

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Diane Carter wrote:

> Are visionary poets simply conduits of mythical/mythic knowledge and how is >

that shaped by their personal experience?

I write / speak out of my own experience and identity as Poet.

We all are visionaries, most do not tap into their powers = potential.

If the poet has a feel for mythology, and views himself as part of that

mythology, he is admitting to and joining a tradition. That tradition is

past down through the thousands of years by any number of art forms -

the written page, storytelling, dance, painting, the song, etc. - and

then through whatever else = instinct = intuition = the One =

Consciousness = imagination.

I often wonder, maybe it is the visionaries who are not whole. They need

to tap into the 'greater force' to be whole, whereas the vast masses

lead satisfactory lives with no need for the esoteric. (but history has

shown that the vast masses do not lead satisfactory lives . . . )

And according to certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater

force', there is only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =

abundant imagination, which is good.

J. Neudorfer = New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:25:47 -0700

Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject: An introduction and status of a poet

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Hi,

I'm fairly new to the list and this is my first post:

A) I'm interested to know what you folks think about the portrayal of

Kerouac and GInsberg in the movie Naked Lunch. I thought that it was

ridiculous.

B)On the poet issue:

>Yes, but can a poet exist soley? alone without recognition? Before

>they got published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the

>beats "poets"? Or were they just a bunch of educated whacks? -- or before I

saw Ginsberg on eMTyV (puke) --

I believe there is a deeper question involved:

Poetry is art, it is not the hardest task in the world to sit down and

rhyme a few words together or wipe your ass on a notebook and call it a

poem. The true test is "is it art?" When a man paints a portrait is he

not a painter? Yes, but an artist... maybe? The question is, do the

words move you beyond prosaic jumble of letters on paper?

To ask if a poet can exist alone is an impossible question. Why does a

poet write? If a poet writes for expression/communication then, that

poet will be unsatisfied if he is not recognized, but poets writing for

pure releaseoutlet don't often care one way or the other.

Just my opinion,

Nice to be here,

Chris

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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:30:29 -0700

Reply-To: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education thereof)

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At 12:24 PM 6/26/97 -0700, you wrote:

>J. Stauffer wrote:

>><<In our world a poet is someone who can get at least a few other people

>>to agree that what he or she does is poetry.>>

>Yes, but can a poet exist soley? alone without recognition? Before

>they got published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the

>beats "poets"? Or were they just a bunch of educated whacks? Before

>every word became sacred, before the eyes of the world became them, I

>wonder what the early years were like. Any reading recommendations??

>Something akin to Norman Mailer's "portait of picasso as a young man"

>would be great.

>>> J Stauffer

>brother deep, Douglas

I started to respond to this stuff a few days back but I trashed it. this

what is poetry back and forth, role of the poet, poet, poet, poet stuff is

absurd. I have tried to stay out of it because I just got nuts reading it

all. you write poetry because you have to/need to/want to... fuck

everything else. there is nothing to explain. fuck the money, fuck the

fucking, fuck it all. poets are sick people that have the need like any

other fool human that needs. it is there and you feed it, spontaneous or

sculpted w/chisel in stone, no matter. it is the bastard child of letters,

the bottom rung on the entertainment food chain. it is sincere and

delicious, wretched and sick. it is glorious beyond all, it is magic. it

is gambling from the inside. James seems to be the most on target in

general (it's been a long day... especially w/the idea of poets make). from

the greek I beleive : poet/maker. I guess I feel the same about this that

some feel about discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best

xxxooo

s.a.

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:51:59 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Kerouac.

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At 19.29 25/06/97 +0200, Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it> wrote:

>DEAR friends,

>Lowell Massachusetts on the tombstone:

>"Ti Jean - John Kerouac who honored Life - his wife Stella"

>---

>yrs

>Rinaldo.

"Please permit me to introduce myself...

My name is Henry Cru and my best friend "Jack Kerouac"

sent ne the enclosed postal card on my trip around the

world. I am an electrician on the President Jackson and

we are scheduled to arrive in Genoa June sixt or possibly

a day or two later. In Jack's best selling novel On The

Road he named himself "Sal Paradise" and he called me

"Remi Bon Coeur". According to his card he wishes for me

to tell you that I am Remi and then he sent me. I have no

idea why he wants me to tell you this but knowing Jack as

I do he must have some kind of mystical reason".

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:22:32 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: Perfection

In-Reply-To: <33B1C568.1FA1@discovland.net>

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<<pulling thru my beal-l archives>>

At 6:27 PM -0700 6/25/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:

> Mike Skau wrote:

> > Tolstoy once said that a work of art is never finished--it is only

>abandoned.

> Interesting - but if an artist is experimenting with a particular form,

> and that form seems to have been perfected (i use 'seem', because

> perfection is not objective), is it not finished? To become the Buddha

> you must kill the Buddha. Perfect a style / project / work of art and

> then drop it, move on to another. Perhaps this is just a matter of

> terminology.

as a technology, terminology must be subjective. Is this what you are

saying? And to kill the Buddha. oh my. I have a problem with that. He's

big. my god, is he big. I bet he sumo's. It's enough to have the world

on yer shoulders, but him too! Why can't perfection be objective? no

blood, no weight... an easy going life.... if you can escape the

terminology.... :-) and the experimenting...

> Joseph Neudorfer

<<breathing smoke>> Douglas <<sorry god, I know this is bad for me>>

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer

save it, just keep it off my wave is

-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:03:13 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education thereof)

In-Reply-To: <199706270630.XAA16374@calvin.usc.edu>

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At 11:30 PM -0700 6/26/97, s.a. griffin wrote:

> fucking, fuck it all. poets are sick people that have the need like any

yes poets have needs. and hopefully you'll believe me when I say this,

... partaking in all this discussion with the list has been very good for

my soul. yes, poets do indeed have needs. if anything, to be around

poets. like minded souls. <<breathing>>

> some feel about discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best

yes

> xxxooo

> s.a.

cheers, Douglas

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer

save it, just keep it off my wave is

-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:47:32 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: Visionary poetry

In-Reply-To: <33B306F0.732A@discovland.net>

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J. Neudorfer writ:

> And according to certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater

> force', there is only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =

> abundant imagination, which is good.

ah, full force of that. storm and shadow, hail and puddles. amen. and

thank you as well for your book recommendations. hopefully, they will be

good, but I can't imagine why not.,,

> J. Neudorfer = New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes

the architect is not the history = village idiot . . . cheers, Douglas

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer

save it, just keep it off my wave is

-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here

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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:56:41 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet

In-Reply-To: <33B2C23B.45F2@erols.com>

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At 12:25 PM -0700 6/26/97, Chris Dumond wrote:

> Hi,

> I'm fairly new to the list and this is my first post:

cool more virgins!! <<laugh>. sorry, I am in a wicked humor mood... come

on in. sit down, have drink, and lets us play a few rounds of pool...

> The question is, do the

> words move you beyond prosaic jumble of letters on paper?

> To ask if a poet can exist alone is an impossible question. Why does a

> poet write?

why does a dog... <<no, can't tell that joke>> ... because he can. That's

why. because a poet *can*. and yes, I have heard many stories from

friends less fortunate than I, that yes, indeed, when left alone with a

book, words have been known to jump off the page suddenly, do a little

dance, and indeed walk off the page. of their own apparent volition.

leaving the poet, sitting all alone, <<breathing>> waiting for his feet to

start moving again.... [burroughs, naked lunch]

> pure releaseoutlet don't often care one way or the other.

> Just my opinion,

> Nice to be here,

No apologies needed, seems to be the general rule [cobain, unplugged]

> Chris

cheers, Douglas <<suddenly stopped laughing, looking for cigarettes>>

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer

save it, just keep it off my wave is

-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:37:53 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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Diane,

ok, perhaps I like kerouac better than ginsberg. In fact, am pretty sure I

do. About a week or so ago, I went out and bought the "kicks joy darkness"

CD and I can't seem to get past track #3, "my gang" (the oration by M.

Stipe). I see god all over this piece, and yet I don't have the same

shackles I had with the ginsberg you mentioned. perhaps Kerouac doens't

have the same respect for god? Have also been listening to Nirvana's

"Unplugged" which is basically a poets ode to death. shame. One song in

particular "Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam" stands out. What if the

poet rejects redemption? redemption of the "one voice"? Check out these

lined from "My Gang":

"Why dont you like young Rondeau?"

always I'm asked, because he boasts

and boasts, brags, brags, ya, ya, ya,

because he's crazy because he's mad

and because he never gives us a chance to talk

And then Stipe has these organs, this circus music, this opening of the

gates into heaven/hell. Who'se "Hotsatots" and what's this "footsie"

action? a kick in the ass or the sacred labado dance? I love the imagery

of the whole piece .... "to midnight by midnight riding roses" .... [[ah,

thank god for lap cats, purring]]

still thinking about Cobain. tragic mothfucking act. "where I killed

700,000 flies or more"..... as an act of poesy, how do you explain his

actions? In a way, it's kind of amazing. Men of that generation didn't

really have consequences. [of course that's a lie, but let me roll with

this...] There was no AIDS, no real Cold War, post Cold War, environmental

movement.

Science has already been proven false. God before that. Is poetry next?

And this goes back to my original jest, that all these poets you were

praising were actually crazed, homicidal, maniacs!! "because he's crazy

because he's mad and because he never gives us a chance to talk"

What are the responsibilities of a poet? I don't know. I must confess, I

feel myself walking into deep waters. my knowledge of poetry is limited

(with moderns art history, I'm better).

It does seem like "my gang" is an ode to death, though. And it's a lot

different than Cobain's. gambling in his parents house, spitting out

windows -- no thought to the consequences. He argues and cites

discrepancies. But then I get lost towards the end of the piece. It's all

leading up to the fact that he'll be pissed if god rejects him. or maybe

he's not talking to god??? He'll be pissed if SATAN, satan the

DESTORYER!!! <<laugh>> is actually calm cool and collected? <<more

laughing>> Won't that be a bust? He'll have to go to sleep and actually

do his homework in the morning. [or god forbid, actually get to work on

time....]

maybe you'll understand my relations to god better if you knew that my

mom's last husband was a minister. TV shows, radios, seminars, the whole

bit. bastard ;-) ah, a loving man all through and thru. not.

I still need to review your last posting. Will do so at work when I'm not

...... zzzzzzing.......

cheers, Douglas

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer

save it, just keep it off my wave is

-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:47:06 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet

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runner911 wrote:

> why does a dog... <<no, can't tell that joke>> ... because he can. That's

> why. because a poet *can*. and yes, I have heard many stories from

> friends less fortunate than I, that yes, indeed, when left alone with a

> book, words have been known to jump off the page suddenly, do a little

> dance, and indeed walk off the page. of their own apparent volition.

> leaving the poet, sitting all alone, <<breathing>> waiting for his feet to

> start moving again.... [burroughs, naked lunch]

What about the words that walk off the side of the page when writing

them?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:31:54 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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runner911 wrote:

> Science has already been proven false. God before that. Is poetry

>next?

> And this goes back to my original jest, that all these poets you were

> praising were actually crazed, homicidal, maniacs!! "because he's

>crazy

>because he's mad and because he never gives us a chance to talk"

Well, in a way I do see poets as crazed, homicidal, maniacs, and as S.A.

Griffin so well put, "you write poetry because you have to/need to/want

to." As when Ginsberg says, "I saw the best minds of my generation

destroyed by madness..." What if he could of joined them, gone over the

edge, like his mother, like Carl Solomon, but didn't? Instead grasped

the voice of the poet inside, spilling out truth, poetry as his madness,

way of touching the human world, naked bodies, loves, also the esoteric

world, needing both, making both one.

And Douglas, what if, for the sake of discussion, we treat god as

removed from god of the bible, as more of an eternal oneness in all

things.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:56:46 -0400

Reply-To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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Beat Friends,

I realize I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread, but

when I see statements like:

> > Science has already been proven false. God before that. Is poetry

> >next?

made, I have to ask for some clarification. . . Please, someone enlighten

me, how is it possible to disprove science? What evidence is there to

support that statement? And how is it possible to prove God false (or real

for that matter), if you know something the rest of us don't, please share.

. .

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:15:24 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: shameless

In-Reply-To: <33B4071A.347@together.net>

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now that i've got yr attention (what! something is shameless to

marie??)

anyway

does any one know the minimum set up to record own readings of own poems?

i've been reading them out loud, lately, and i think some are far more

powerful when read aloud.

i'm broke and damn near a technical idiot.

all responses welcome to my mailbox

thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:10:03 -0700

Reply-To: mike@infinet.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:

Comments: To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

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On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:43:17 -0700 you wrote:

>"the map is not the territory"

>(attribution unknown)

In "Science and Sanity, An Introduction to Non-Aristotelian Systems and

General Semantics," page 61 (4th edition 1958, 6th printing), Alfred

Korzybski writes, "There is no such thing as an object in absolute

isolation...if words are not the things, or maps are not the actual

territory..." Korzybski continues, (paraphrasing), a horse probably has

no concept as to crossing the border. The horse just walks. And neither

would a human rider without some sign or post to indicate "crossing."

The human just rides.

Korzybski wrote "the map is not the territory," and "the word is not the

thing."

"You men gonna eat cha dinner, eat cha pork and beans, I've ate more

chicken than any man ever seen, ...yeah, ...yeah, I'm a back door man...

I'm a back door man..."

--The Doors, Back Door Man

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:37:36 -0700

Reply-To: mike@infinet.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject: Re: shameless

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

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On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:15:24 -0400 you wrote:

> does any one know the minimum set up to record own readings of own poems?

> i've been reading them out loud, lately, and i think some are far more

> powerful when read aloud.

A sound card, microphone, and speakers for your PC remains one of

probably many ways to record your poetry. And with the sound card, you

could even post the recording (.wav file) here on Beat-L. Sound files

get real large real quick, but it works. Sound Blaster by Creative sells

packages with all ingredients including the software "Monotone" which

reads back text for proofing, etc. I have seen other vendors sell sound

cards for $39.00, microphones for $10.00, and speakers for $19.00 or so.

Shop around. IBM sells "Voice Assist" now which has a special filtering

microphone. Another vendor sells a "Voice" WordProcessor now. And to add

real commericalization here, Phillips (and other vendors) sell both

recordable and even rerecordable CD drives for your PC. These drives now

sell for less than $500.00. You could sell CDs of your poetry! All for

easily around a thousand bucks or so, including the cost of the PC!

> i'm broke and damn near a technical idiot.

Aren't we all! PCs sell these days like gas ignites! These small PC

retailers these days make deals almost self-serve! If this sorta thing

interests you, go in, tell 'em what you want to do, and work out a deal.

They'll piece you together a PC that'll do it.

I just wanted to present one possibility, suggestion...

Thanks-

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:52:00 -0600

Reply-To: Sonya Kolowrat <skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sonya Kolowrat <skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>

Organization: MainStream Consulting Group, Inc

Subject: Scorpios?

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Being a scorpio on the beat list, I thought this was weird. I NEVER

check my horoscope, and the one day I do, this is what pops up!

-----------------------------------

SCORPIO (Oct 23-Nov 21)

Week of June 26, 1997

If I ever resume my

education at an

institution of higher

learning, it'll probably

be at the Jack Kerouac

School of Disembodied

Poetics in Boulder. The

lineage of its teachers

is the "outrider"

tradition: "outrageous,

iconoclastic,

exploratory," in the

words of poet Anne

Waldman, "doing the work

to please the deities,

to keep the energies

dancing, not just to

have a safe and tenured

career." In honor of

your own entry into the

outrider phase of your

yearly cycle, dear

Scorpio, I offer you the

following visualization:

Imagine kissing a holy

freedom fighter. It

could be the Dalai Lama

or Burma's Nobel Peace

Prize winner Aung San

Suu Kyi or anyone who

inflames your desire to

experiment and dare and

struggle to bring more

beauty and truth and

justice into the world.

-Bye! Sonya.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:56:32 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet

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Diane poses:

><<What about the words that walk off the side of the page when writing

them?>>

Well, I've stolen several stories here. Friend told me how under the

influence of LSD he took a final at UCLA and has this wonderful

experience. perhaps he meant it metaphorically, but I assume not. Boy

walks in, sits down - he's flying. Teacher hands out test, boy wigs out

- stares at the page. <hm> and then the words leave him tabla rasa, he

waits - the words reappear with the answers accompanying them. <ah>

the story is suspect for the miraculous intervention there at the end.

Says he got an "A" or something like that. <<perhaps>> [[suspect

process]]

Then in Naked Lunch, correct me if I'm wrong, the opening bit tells alot

about the life of a junkie. He goes on about how easy and entertaining

it is to get loaded and stare at your shoes for a good eight hours or

so. perhaps this is also metaphorical in nature. A nice suede,

perhaps.

and no, ah, re-reading your message, not *while* writing - before and

after; that's when they do their little dance. No one ever said

anything about the actual act of creation, what happen to words at that

time. Were they congealed from tiny proteins, their pattern skidded

sideways (as vision does horizontally).

>b -----> x <------- p

b ........xxxxxxoetry--->>>>xxxxxxxx........ p

<<ah, woke up to the sound of a screaming modem, demanding under the

strains of a half-power situation. no alarms clocks reading past 12:00

... the fridge, poorly stocked already, seems to moan, filled with a

luke warm yellow. went back to sleep regardless of being late, my pains

still subsiding, ah, a long beautiful day ahead...>>

>> DC

cheers, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:13:28 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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Diane writ:

><< Well, in a way I do see poets as crazed, homicidal, maniacs, and as S.A.

> Griffin so well put [[agreed]], "you write poetry because you have to/need

>to/want to." As when Ginsberg says, "I saw the best minds of my generation

> destroyed by madness..." What if he could of joined them, gone over the

> edge, like his mother, like Carl Solomon, but didn't? Instead grasped

> the voice of the poet inside, spilling out truth, poetry as his madness,

> way of touching the human world, naked bodies, loves, also the esoteric

world, needing both, making both one.>>

.... madness and the esoteric world.... <hm> perhaps like M. Stipe who

I appreciate very much, Ginsberg did indeed *see* the mechanics, the

processes of these "best minds". this is what you were saying earlier.

Yes. but chose to remain living, to bear thru the pain and suffering.

to remain on the outside and deal with that inner/personal madness

through the conduct/conduits of other people.

That life itself was an option to choose [outside the self, in others].

working towards life. pulling the esoteric in that general direction

[and thru the poors of others]. <<hm, just babbling now..>> hm, I

guess the trick is being able to not *need* to write poetry. to *not*

believe in "because" and "shoulds" all the time. not all the time.

<<still thinking about Cobain, the DESTROYER of my generation>> not all

the time and not only in the dark, cause then ya become a Vampiro,

>drinker of blood!!! <<hm>>

><< And Douglas, what if, for the sake of discussion, we treat god as

> removed from god of the bible, as more of an eternal oneness in all

things.>>

Well, ok, but there we're talking about a god oughta context. Don't

know how to deal with that. A whole new ballgame. <<objective vs

subjective god>> and perhaps perhaps perhaps this is more personal and

not so easily conveyed via email. Oftentimes I do invoke god, quite

self-consciously. Meaning exactly as you say: "more of an eternal

oneness in all things". Which brings me train of thought back to

Ginsberg and his wish to be recognized. to be within reach and on the

right path. or walking, breathing, at least. So where is god located

then, Diane? If removed from the bible, where shall we find evidence of

>him??

[her, him, it.... you know what I mean....god]

> DC

cheers, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:19:36 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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Bruce asks his Beat Friends:

><< [snip] I have to ask for some clarification. . . Please, someone

>enlighten

>me, how is it possible to disprove science? What evidence is there to

>support that statement? And how is it possible to prove God false (or real

for that matter), if you know something the rest of us don't, please

share.>>

perhaps I'm relying on academic standards that have not yet been proven

in the workplace. most assuredly. neitchze proved god wrong [haven't

read the book]. the cold war and post-industrial culture proved science

not able to cure ills of manking [perhaps quite the opposite]. Who was

the sci-fi author who wrote about god being found floating in the Artic

Ocean??

"enlighten you" ... hm, yes. that's what I'm talking about. perhaps

this french revolutionary idea isn't so ideal after all? Who has the

Power?? The people?? I think this is very much in question, these

days.

>but, I'm gonna shut up now. Hope that helps!

>> Bruce

>> bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>> http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

cheers, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:27:20 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:

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Michael, the attribution saver:

>>"the map is not the territory"

>> [[Alfred Korzybski]]

><<"You men gonna eat cha dinner, eat cha pork and beans, I've ate more

>chicken than any man ever seen, ...yeah, ...yeah, I'm a back door man...

>I'm a back door man..."

--The Doors, Back Door Man>>

Ah, thank your for reminding me. thank you very much indeed. People

always ask the general question "how are you?" and never stick around

for the answer. Always pisses me off. So instead of an honest reply

(or at least the "fine" or "good" they are expecting), I insistently

reply "hungry." I'm always hungry for something man.

<<gotta find a good Janis Joplin quote to fill in here...>>

>cheers, Douglas <<a little piece of my heart....SUMMERTIME>> ??

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:29:41 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: shameless

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Marie posits:

<<does any one know the minimum set up to record own readings of own

>poems?>>

use yer answering machine (if ya have one??) I think your *maximum*

would be about 30 seconds and then a very loud beep.

>> thanks

>> mc

cheers, Douglas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:40:00 -0700

Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: poets in a ring <<square, actually>>

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<<ok, I'll be quiet soon>>

reading yesterdays LA Times, Sports section, headline: "Can Tyson

Rewrite Script(ure)?"

snippet by Jim Murray: "So, Holyfield is the last hope of turning a

heavyweight championship fight into a morality play, a truimph of good

over evil, value over vice."

Anyone here subscribing to this idea of redemption? poets not lovers or

a fighter? and If god did exist, would he live in a "holy field"?? Is

this where you want to find evidence of god, Diane?? In the newspaper

(sports section) ??

I'm warning you, I could talk about basketball till the cows came

home!!

he goes, he gone, goodbye <<Douglas>>

"the map is not the territory" babu@electriciti.com

(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:09:21 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Betty Shabazz.

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Betty Shabazz, American

civil rights worker, died

of burns in a New York

hospital aged 61.

She was born in Detroit

on May 28, 1936.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:24:48 -0700

Reply-To: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education thereof)

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 01:03 AM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:30 PM -0700 6/26/97, s.a. griffin wrote:

>> fucking, fuck it all. poets are sick people that have the need like any

>yes poets have needs. and hopefully you'll believe me when I say this,

>... partaking in all this discussion with the list has been very good for

>my soul.

yes, absolutely, I agree w/yourself and everyone having the right and need

to discuss poetry to the ends of the world. I agree that it can be good for

any soul. after awhile I just had to step in and defend the poor poem as I

felt it's own dear soul down for the count so to speak and needing a break :

needed that cut under the eye tended, some water, a towel, a chance for the

crowd to get some popcorn and beer...

everyone was dancing with and on it and not giving the poor baby a break. I

was beginning to take it personal as if I were the thing in the ring being

poked and pushed.

yes, poets do indeed have needs. if anything, to be around

>poets. like minded souls.

most all my friends, people I spend time with, are involved in the poetry

thing; poor unemployed to Phd. but all noble in their own way. it's not

always good to be around them, they can make one truly insane as is often

the case. but they are the only ones for me, the only ones that I feel

comfortable with to share the breath. there is often nothing, but then that

is the adventure, just when you think it's over... out comes a rabbit, or

someone forms a diamond from air, problem is, the crowd ordered a

cheesburger and a coke and they think the diamonds are worthless, and they

cook the poor magic rabbit. never stops the poem or the poet, they just

keep making, like ants, like bees, like time...

>> some feel about discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best

>yes

yes

yes....

<<breathing>>

yes!

>cheers, Douglas

>> xxxooo

>> s.a.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:50:53 -0500

Reply-To: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: ketchup & writing

Content-Type: text

/"The days glide by,strung on a syringe with a long thread of blood"

Arthur: Compare Prufrock's desire "To spit out all the butt ends of

my days and ways" (for those who might not see the image clearly, he

would have been smoking unfiltered cigarettes; the tobacco would

sometimes crawl out the end onto your lip; when it did, you would

spit it out)

/Perhaps the ultimate similarity between their situations is that

/death- spiritual and physical- awaits them, the common result of going

/over either edge.

Arthur: of course, physical death awaits all of us, whether we go

over any edges at all; more to the point, Prufrock is already spiritually

dead: he even compares himself to Lazarus (both Lazaruses of the New

Testament are probably relevany here), come back from the dead, and the

poem concludes with Prufrock accepting his death-in-life: "Till human

voices wake us and we drown."

Someone asked about the painting of Corso in the Beat Generation exhibit

at the Whitney: that would most likely have been Robert La Vigne's

_Portrait of Gregory Corso_ (1956).

To Michael Stutz:

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend the summer '94 Naropa fest for

Ginsberg (were you there?). No, the reading to which I was referring

was one which Corso gave with Baraka (LeRoi Jones) at Naropa on 4 August

1985. The poem Corso read was one which he called "Written at a Rock Star's

Gravesite, in Spontaneity"; the phrase "in Spontaneity" is then complicated

by the poem's introductory passage:

"Don't change a word

First thought best thought

advised dearest of Jacks

If the mind is shapely

the poem will come out shapely

advised dearest of Ginsy

On second thought I thought

not to jump off the Empire State"

(the line endings are approximations based on Corso's reading; the rock

star of the title, by the way, was Jim Morrison of the Doors: Corso goes

on to note that his tombstone reads: JIM MOORRISON POET)

Cordially,

Mike Skau

6/27/97

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:06:31 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: .driving past the hospital

The incision must be made at the precise point of intersection

where heart meets inner ear.

I turned right on her street as the car radio began to play.

there were three Arab gangsters in front of the seveneleven.

"Boys don't FEEL the same". Where voiced and unvoiced anguish separate.

Yellowed sutures of nylon hand-polished in China. I still have her scars.

Little parallel lines on my shoulderblade.

They say it went right through, just like Jesse James.

i don't believe Them.

I told them "Stop looking at my feet". Like Dillinger.

Or was it...

So many TURNS left.

you mean burns, right?

electromagnetic resonance spectrometers vascillate frantically---

it's so dark in here.

Sulphurous perfumes in the Doctor's promises.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:21:39 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: can i kick it?

today in my very very beat life i came across a really really cool website i

would like to share with you all 'cause i think you're just all so special.

I hope you will think it's neat too but there are some of you who will not

like it i know and i apologize in advance for wasting your precious internet

time so forgive me.

For your info it's a page of links to very very cool stuff that i'm

interested in and hey it can't hurt for you to take a look you might find

something you like or that will merely change your life. It has WSB links

too.

here it is:

http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~maldoror/links.html

it's just......i'm.....wordless.

--------maya

ps:

today i had to 'splain to my ESL students what "kickin' it" means.

I also had to explain what "honey bunny" means.

And what "mofo" stands for.

What a great intro for them to American culture, huh?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:04:14 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997

Notice:

It has recently come to my attention that certain elements in the mist

have been disobeying the Policies of our establishment and institutional Alma

Mater. Reports of idolatry, incohesion, and dissimular thought-patterns have

been made to those with the authority to do something about it, i.e. mete out

punishment. We strongly urge the perpetrators to come forward and turn

themselves over so they can tan the other side for all to see, in the form of

posters and other confessions of artistry. Names will not be changed to

protect the guilty. We all know, comrades and gentlewomen, that this type

of misbehavior will not be tolerated by God and all the angels at Heaven

Country Club. We all pay taxes, in the end. Except if you live in Virginia.

Or Texas. But any grandmother who wants to smoke pot should be rounded up

and shot. This mess was brought to you by yours truly,

madly and deeply,

-----maya

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:54:09 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:

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Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> Ah, thank your for reminding me. thank you very much indeed. People

> always ask the general question "how are you?" and never stick around

> for the answer. Always pisses me off. So instead of an honest reply

> (or at least the "fine" or "good" they are expecting), I insistently

> reply "hungry." I'm always hungry for something man.

i've found an amusing answer to "how are you" is -- "just living minute

to minute". you can tell a lot about the questioner by the reaction to

this answer. some you want to get to know better. some you never want

to see again.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:16:30 UT

Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: Scorpios?

lol Sonya.... funny how the universe gives little hits of truth when you least

expect it, eh? Sort of like 'wake up & smell the coffee, girl!' hehe Guess

Jung was right.... synchronicity... It's all One <grins>

Ciao,

Sherri

love_singing@msn.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:37:12 UT

Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

Douglas,

Why do you relegate evidence of god to a book, and only one, at that? Why

must god be something defined by man? That seems antithetical to the idea of

god. God Is. The evidence is in everything, every particle, wave, atom,

blade of grass. What we don't know is what god is. Perhaps the whole notion

of it is that s/he/it cannot be defined by humankind, because we, as a part of

god, cannot fully experience the whole and, therefore, can only speculate

based on that portion of god which we can.

This is of course necessarily truncated, and barely scratches the surface,

but hopefully you can read between the lines.

Btw, has anyone suggested a Beat chat room... would be alot easier to discuss

some of this stuff that way and a hell of alot more fun.

Ciao, Sherri

love_singing@msn.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:30:53 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)

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Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> Well, ok, but there we're talking about a god oughta context. Don't

> know how to deal with that. A whole new ballgame. <<objective vs

> subjective god>> and perhaps perhaps perhaps this is more personal and

> not so easily conveyed via email. Oftentimes I do invoke god, quite

> self-consciously. Meaning exactly as you say: "more of an eternal

> oneness in all things". Which brings me train of thought back to

> Ginsberg and his wish to be recognized. to be within reach and on the

> right path. or walking, breathing, at least. So where is god located

> then, Diane? If removed from the bible, where shall we find evidence

>of

> >him??

> [her, him, it.... you know what I mean....god]

Just want to get you out of the "because" and shoulds," too much baggage

associated with the god of the bible, wanted to get away from Blake's

visionary system as read by Ginsberg, and also away from any redemptive

notion attached to gods or poets or poetry. From this new perspective

you find evidence of god in walking and breathing, in grass, trees,

rocks, in the godlike act of writing a poem, a oneness in you, in

everything.

Or in timeless moments as in this passage from Kerouac,

"It was perfect, the golden solitude, the golden emptiness,

Something-Or-Other, something surely humble. There was a rapturous ring

of silence abiding perfectly. There was no question of being alive, of

likes and dislikes, or near or far, no question of giving or gratitude,

no question of mercy or judgment, or of suffering or its opposite or

anything."

Does this relate back "to be within reach and on the right path, walking,

breathing, or are we back to killing the buddha...?"

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:43:15 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: poets in a ring <<square, actually>>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> reading yesterdays LA Times, Sports section, headline: "Can Tyson

> Rewrite Script(ure)?"

> snippet by Jim Murray: "So, Holyfield is the last hope of turning a

> heavyweight championship fight into a morality play, a truimph of good

> over evil, value over vice."

> Anyone here subscribing to this idea of redemption? poets not lovers

>or

> a fighter? and If god did exist, would he live in a "holy field"?? Is

> this where you want to find evidence of god, Diane?? In the newspaper

> (sports section) ??

"The world is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is

holy! The tongue and cock and hand and asshole holy!

Everything is holy! everbody's holy! everywhere is holy! everyday is in

eternity! Everyman's an angel!

The bum as holy as the seraphin! the madman is holy as you my soul are

holy!

The typewriter is holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers are

holy the esctasy is holy!"

from Ginsberg, Footnote to Howl,

I'm too lazy to type the whole thing but I think you get the idea...

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:02:18 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Visionary poetry

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neudorf@discovland.net wrote:

> I write / speak out of my own experience and identity as Poet.

> We all are visionaries, most do not tap into their powers = potential.

> If the poet has a feel for mythology, and views himself as part of that

> mythology, he is admitting to and joining a tradition. That tradition

>is

> past down through the thousands of years by any number of art forms -

> the written page, storytelling, dance, painting, the song, etc. - and

> then through whatever else = instinct = intuition = the One =

> Consciousness = imagination.

> I often wonder, maybe it is the visionaries who are not whole. They

>need

> to tap into the 'greater force' to be whole, whereas the vast masses

> lead satisfactory lives with no need for the esoteric. (but history has

> shown that the vast masses do not lead satisfactory lives . . . )

> And according to certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater

> force', there is only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =

> abundant imagination, which is good.

> J. Neudorfer = New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes

I think that visionary=abundant imagination is a great way to describe

it. I also find some truth in the idea of the visionary not being whole

without the esoteric. Or is it simply that the visionary was born

with a heightened consciousness? A mind that can make the leap:

instinct=intuition=the One Consciousness=imagination? Many poets lead

very satisfactory lives, as you say, without the esoteric. Many poets

write without looking for or understanding the nature of the archetypical

mind or images.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:23:08 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Bukowski

Comments: To: mike@infinet.com

Mike:

I'll send you those issues of TIP. I had an interview in Jul. 30, 1981 issue,

issue on Stevie Wonder and the Doors. Some great pictures of Jim Morrison.

Nov. 11, 1982 issue, also great original pictures of Bukowski and Ben

Gazzara with Tanya Lopert.

And then a photo article, "Plymells Amerika". I wrote you a letter today

and with some thoughts on your click theory that was on the list last night.

Later,

Charley

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:54:29 UT

Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education thereof)

s.a.

seems to me that the role of the poet is to be the heart and soul of

humankind... without the poet (and the philosopher) humankind would be too

caught up in simple survival to remember to think, feel, wonder... not to say

that there isn't some of the poet/philosopher in all of us, but for most the

portion is to small and weak to fight the overwhelming survival and, perhaps

moreso, greed that seem to be inherent in most people.

For all that, I'm not truly cynical... someday poesy will be the stronger

force <s>...

Ciao, Sherri

love_singing@msn.com

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:38:50 UT

Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997

[snip] Maya writes: