=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 21:44:19 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Chaput is Kaput!

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>

> ...

> >It [info about the warrant] was sent to me via a backchannel not directly

> related to this

> >controversy.  I could look up the source if I had to, but it was not a

> >Sampas.  I have never met a Sampas, never been in Lowell or near it for

> >nearly 50 years.  Everyone you mention knows someone, who knows someone,

> >who knows someone.  Very little stays private if it is interesting.  I

> >seriously doubt I have been chosen by the Sampas Casa Nostra to leak out

> >their little bits of information.  I have never met Chapaut or Anastee

> >or anyone except on this list.  I am a non player here.  It is examples

> >like this that make me lean toward Chaput's conclusion as to your having

> >become a little unbalanced over this.

> >

> >

> >J Stauffer

> >

>

> Dear James,    May 15, 1997

>

>         I trust you about the warrant info, but I am curious who your

> "backchannel" was; perhaps you're not at liberty to say.

 

Gerry,

 

I'll dig back through my mail when I get time and try to find it.  It

won't be easy.  I am not organized enough to stick these mails into

files so there is a  pile.

 

I really mean no disrespect toward your seriousness.  Everyone's tone

gets heated, and I sincerely sympathize with your grief over losing Jan.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 21:49:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

 

Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 21:50:29 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Something completely different #2

 

s.a. griffin wrote:

> >

> >

> railroad in oct. earth is a winner.  how about  watts/beat zen . . .  or

> ferlinghetti:  starting from s.f. & coney island?  i don't remember any of

> these being too rugged for hi school.  maybe even as a period piece for some

> good discussion mailer's white negro? or how about we on this list come up

> with some "suitable" stuff and put together some kind of "anthology" for

> open study in schools?

 

All good suggestions.  I like the idea.  I Beat-L high school anthology

or suggested reading list.  I'd add a dollop of Snyder, say some of the

Myths and Texts poems.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 01:04:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

 

>: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

>: > Maybe you should learn the universal language of netiquette, then.

>Load up a search engine and look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell

it

>in Italian, because I'm sure there are translations -- so you can

>learn that its impolite and in bad taste to quote other people's email

on a

>public forum without their permission. Same goes to flooding lists which

 

>you did here not too long ago.

>: >

> It is not my place (or desire) to police a list but this constant

>barrage of noise is wearing thin. Sure I looked at that '77 url you

posted,

>but saw no relation to the list other than the words "william blake,"

and

>that article a while back (all in Italian) with the nice Ginzy photo,

but come on! I

>know German, so should I post a shitload of German poetry to the list,

>or reprint  articles from _Der Spiegel_ about Allen Ginsberg? Why draw

the

>line there --how 'bout I send copies of "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen"

--

>Japanse translation -- to the list? It will look like noise to most

>readers, but the "UNIVERSAL knowledge" is somewhere in those bits!

>: Other listers: am I missing something here?

> Sick of noise and bad vibes, all too much lately,

>

> m

 

I just want Rinaldo to know that we do not all beleive in this crap

written above. I do not stnd behind this racist critique of your posts.

If you want to write in Italian- go for it. I cannot speak Italian (I

speak spanish so I roughly understand what you say) but that does not

mean I should stop you from writing. This is a open forum. Write however

you want.

 To the author of this piece- write in german if you want. I will do what

I do with Rinaldo's posts when i cannot understnd them- I will delete

them without giving a thought. English is not the most important

language. He can write and speak however he wants.

 You might do well to look up netiquitte yourself. Nowhere in any

ettiquette sources I am familiar with is it ok to make derogatory

innuendos about anothers language and/or heritage such as

 "look up "netiquette" -- or however you spell it in Italian"

 

 My two cents worth-

  Dean Palmer

 

 

/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\/\/\~Funny English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,

man answers and says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and

hangs up, wife says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,

some damn fool who

wanted to know if the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal

Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 01:21:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To:  <970516000913_155162182@emout19.mail.aol.com>

 

>Dear Jo Grant:

>

>I have asked you twice now to remove errors in Gerry's essay that you are

>running on your web page and twice you have refused. Now the reason is that

>you do not know where to look on your own page. What's the address?, you ask.

>Ok - here's the address:

>http://www.bookzen.com/nicosia.html.

>What's your excuse going to be now for keeping alive the b.s.?

 

Lighten up Jeffery,

 

You sent me the document address at 11:09 p.m. 05-15-97. At 12:58 a.m.

05-16-97 the changes were made.

 

I asked for the address not as an excuse, but simply to find out where the

information you complained about was located.

 

I made the changes not because you demanded that I do, but because I'm

giving you the benefit of the doubt. I trust that you have done what you

tell me you have done--discussed it with Gerry.  I haven't heard from Gerry

on this issue yet....

 

Please understand that I have no problem with you.  I don't know you.  I'm

simply a retired laborer (a union worker) and a Deb's Socialist who's also

a Wobbly who has been on the road, admires and respects both Kerouacs, and

JK's comrades.  I just want the Keroauc literary arvchives in a library,

safe and preserved. I'll keep anything to support that on my web site, I'll

walk a picket line and I'll demonstrate. The material is much too important

to have people wheeling and dealing and profiting by selling any part of

the collection.

 

They--the Sampas family--MAY own the collection. They may not.

 

If Sampas claims that he can prove Memere's signature on the will is not

forged, then let's give him the opportunity to do so.

 

j grant

 

                BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

        O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

 

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

                display books free at

           <http://www.bookzen.com>

     302,443  visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 01:29:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To:  <v01510101afa13a37c9f4@[128.125.224.159]>

 

>Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

>did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

 

Lazy webmaster?  Nah.

 

 Not true.

 

Unskilled, a novice, more at home with a wheel barrow loaded with paving

stones than computer technology, YEH. But not lazy.

 

Disorganized, not efficient in allocating my time, YEH. Those for sure. But

not  lazy, and not a webmaster--yet.

 

You're taking too much for Granted.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

                BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

        O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

 

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

                display books free at

           <http://www.bookzen.com>

     302,443  visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 02:39:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Conspiracies

 

"Just because people say you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get

you!"

                  Who said this?  Allen Ginsberg? ;-)

 

 

 

I have a feeling I'm about to piss a number of people off.  So be it.  I'm a

big boy.  I can take my lumps.

 

We've all been witness to a lot of volleying back and forth these last few

weeks regarding the Great Estate Debate.  We've seen namecalling (plenty of

it!), we've seen claims and counterclaims, we've seen some pretty clever

humor, we've seen a lot of disagreement and astonishingly (!) some honest

dialogue.  I've got some pretty strong feelings about a lot of these things

and I'd like to share them with you.

 

1).  Cease and Desist

I've heard more than one person say it's time to call off the dogs, this

thread has played out and certain folks seem damn tired of it.  Usually these

come in the form of some snide or pernicious remark aimed at one of more of

the people doing most of the talking and somebody mumbles something about

"pet diatribes" or "infomercials".

 

I honestly don't see what the problem is here.  If you don't want to

participate in this thread, then there are plenty of other threads to follow

like the Pranksters or Joy Kicks Darkness and if none of these suit your

fancy, then start up a new one!  Correct me if i'm wrong but since AG died I

believe Bill Gargan cranked up the daily message capacity to 100 so I don't

believe we're gonna run out of space.  So if you don't want to participate

then hit the delete button!  That's why God invented it!

 

I'll tell you why you keep reading, though, most of you anyway.  Because this

thread is damn interesting!  Personalities and flame wars aside there's a lot

of stuff that's been learned here I bet you've never heard anywhere else.

 And if some of it is honest disinformation, then so be it, someone who knows

the real scoop can correct the person who may think they know what they're

talking about.  And it doesn't have to be with accusations of perpetuating an

"untruth". It can be as simple as someone saying "here's what I know".

 

So hit the delete button if you must, but better yet why not contribute?  Say

something meaningful, take a position!  It's easy to say "a pox on both your

houses".  It's work to try to sort thru the muddle, especially when some

people do their best to try to obfuscate the real issues by tossing in

irrelevant asides or outrageous charges.

 

I'm going to do everything I can to keep this thread alive.  Why?  Because in

the time I've been on the list I haven't seen one other topic, with the

possible exception of our coming together as a group when AG died, that is

more important than this one.  I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me one

other topic that we have ever discussed that can have a bigger potential

impact than Kerouac's Archives.  And if you don't care about that, then focus

on the other threads!

 

2). Conspiracy Theories

Regardless of who used the word "conspiracy" first, I don't see why it's so

hard for people to believe Gerry Nicosia has felt conspired against.  I don't

see anyone trying to counter his claims Brad Parker's hotel reservations were

cancelled or that John Sampas called Texas on John Lash's behalf or that

Viking "coincidently" didn't renew or cancelled his contract (or whatever it

was - must be my "foggy" memory) on Memory Babe a month after they signed a

six book deal with John Sampas.  That is, after all, what a conspiracy is.

Two or more people joining together to the detriment of someone else.

 

Folks, let me tell you how I see it.  Gerry Nicosia is the only one IN THE

ARENA!  The rest of us sit on our easy chairs with our feet up and our

laptops on our knees giving an opinion here and there, pontificating about

the way the world oughta be, complaining that it is all so damn complicated

and "each side is as bad as the other only worse".  And where does that get

anyone?

 

Gerry Nicosia has done something about this situation!  He's taken action.

 He's put his reputation and fortune on the line and guess what!  he's gotten

results!  Certain people have heard him, the courts have heard him.  John

Sampas has stopped selling off Kerouac's archives (outwardly at least, and I

imagine most of us hope he's not doing it at all anymore).

 

And I can't imagine any of this has been easy for Gerry, either. I would

imagine he's been eating, breathing and living this thing for over five

years.  Every day.  You and I have been witness to it for a couple of weeks

in a passive way only, and then only if we decide to log on.

 

It grates on me to hear Chaput's scholarly arguments such as "you're a liar"

and the one line I'm sure all scholars use regularly "Go Fuck Yourself"

played out on the same level as Gerry's usually well thought out, reasoned

and cogent arguments.  Does Gerry lose his cool sometimes?  Sure.  Has he

said some things he probably wishes he could take back?  I imagine he has.

 But he's contributed a hell of lot more than "you're a liar" and "na na na

na naa".

 

Gerry Nicosia is a force to be reckoned with.  Anybody who's read MEMORY BABE

can tell you that.  And what he says may not always be pretty, but it rings

true to me.  He's shown the arguments of his opponents to be weak and

ineffective, not with his credentials (or his big heavy boob as Patricia

might), but with the strength of his argument.

 

Seriously, do you think Jan Kerouac filed this lawsuit on a lark?  Do you

think she was sitting around the house one Sunday afternoon thinking, "Hmmm,

what should I do today?  Take in a movie?  A  walk in the park?  I know!

 I'll sue John Sampas!"  C'mon people, lawsuits are very serious business not

entered into lightly by most people.

 

I wish someone could tell me what I'm missing here - and with a serious

response, not a flippant aside.  What is it about this thread that wears on

you?  Is it that you feel left out?  Then dive in!  Ask questions.  Pursue

possibilities.  Play Devil's Advocate - but do it with an eye toward

discovering the truth!  Not with an agenda of hiding what some may fear will

get out.

 

3).  Scholarship

I don't know where these Scholarship Wars came from, but I can tell you what

I saw.  On the internet, everybody's posts look equal.  And that's fine, we

all have something to contribute.  But when someone who's total investment in

a situation is casually looking over a few emails while watching the Disney

Channel and drinking a six pak makes a post it can carry the same weight as

the post of someone who has done their research and really knows what they're

talking about.  And that's good in a lot of ways, but it forces the rest of

us to really examine the arguments.  And some people are just too lazy to

make the effort and other people just want to be entertained!  And one person

can put forth their all only to have what they say dismissed by someone who

doesn't care or wants to hurt them by quoting them out of context.

 

Case in point.  A number of people have jumped all over Nicosia because he

admitted to the horrible crime that he is human and sometimes fallible.  "I

sometimes go from memory" Gerry said and other people have tried to use that

to show he doesn't know what he's talking about or doesn't bother to check

his facts.  What kind of crap is that? And at least he responds to the

challenges posed to him.  Jeffery Weinberg never bothered to answer my

questions about Jack's raincoat and the "napkin sketch".  Nicosia doesn't

dodge issues... he addresses them head on.

 

So when Nicosia clips off his credentials he's simply documenting why his

opinion is informed with regard to using original manuscripts verses xeroxes.

 He's been trained in this, he's had experience.  I don't think he's trying

to say he's better than anyone else although his "Send Me My Equal" post did

obviously come off a little strong but he apologized for that almost

immediately.  And quite frankly that's the best his detractors have been able

to do... distract him for a short period to the point where he

counterattacked them at their own level.  And yet no one still has made a

sound argument that he is wrong...  only that they are tired of hearing it.

 And I can understand that... if I had something to hide I'd be tired of

hearing it too!

 

 

4).  Finale

I'd like to see something good come out of all this.  And I think it can.

 The argument that "there is nothing we can do, it'll be settled in the

courts" is weak in my opinion.  That's giving up our own power to make

something happen.  Every individual has the power to make something happen.

 As a group we can raise our collective voices and DEMAND the truth.  We've

learned some new things just in the last day or two.  I didn't know Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! gets a portion of its funding from John Sampas.  I think

that is an important issue and I wonder if that is why we haven't heard from

some of those people or if that's why Phil was so passionate in his defense

of John.  And if this is "incorrect" I would hope someone would have the

decency of telling me it is in error as opposed to calling me a "liar".

 

Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light!  Bringing more truth

to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

to trial.

 

I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died.  And

maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

 

That's what I'm about!  I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

 

You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized!  Here I was looking thru

this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

 I was fascinated!  Tears welled up in my eyes.  I read every word I could

see on it.

 

That's what I'm about.  The issue is the archives.

 

Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory.  He's fighting for you.  And

you.  And me.

 

And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will?  We

have the power to investigate this.  Do we have to be so fractured that we

can't stand to look at the truth?

 

 

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 05:07:52 +1100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      Re: Neal's speed

 

Hello Beat-lers,

Here's some information from Richard White concerning Cassady, with regards

to an earlier post of his.  Thank you Charley for getting him on the list

for a while.  I asked for his permission to post this to beat-l.

 

A while back Richard White wrote about his personal experiences with Neal.

>Thanks for reading and responding. It's from an endless, unending and

>disjointed history of San Francisco sixties from someone who was reasonably

>detached. In my real life I'm a Gestalt theorist, a Clinical Director of

>Correctional Substance Abuse Services, a son, a father, a poet . . .

>

>The line about Neal doing work that others shouldn't have to do, etc., refers

>to how he applied strength and energy to living on the edge and in peoples'

>faces. Although he had his crashes, I never witnessed them. Every time I saw

>him he was soaring. It could be quite annoying. He also seemed to treat

>everyone he met with the same indiscretions: he was as busy with my young son

>as he was with me, as busy with a fallen bum as he was with a rising star.

>With Neal around, one not only needed to watch one's wife, one needed to

>watch one's ass, literally, that is.

>

>I'll offer you an anecdote that I don't think I've ever shared with anyone

>else. I first met Neal on Gough Street around 1963 or so. I was playing "roll

>the ball" in the hall with my three year old son and he decided to roll the

>ball into the adjoining kitchen. The ball rolled under the dining table above

>which sat three or four people; it came to a stop between short and knobby

>legs in square, wrinkled cotton pants. I could hear the rapid rap through the

>table top: it was coming from only one of the group, the guy who was

>providing pillars for the ball for which I fumbled, and I was fascinated by

>the velocity of his speech (and also singularly impressed with the content).

>I glanced up toward his crotch, don't ask me why, and viewed this enormous

>bulge running down the left pant-leg. At that moment, I thought, "My god,

>it's Neal".

>

>Richard

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 00:10:06 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject:      Italian is beautiful, Italy is beautiful, you are beautiful.

 

 live long and prosper,

        make love not war

free speech

e pluribus unum

 

 

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 05:26:31 +1100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      Ginsberg talking about Cassady compared to Cobain.

 

This is sort of late, but the night before I heard about Allen's death I was

reading an interview with Allen from a music magazine.  Here's a bit from it;

(Interview by Stuart Coupe)

"I suggested to him [Allen] that before the phone call I'd been thinking

about the Beat Generation and how there was possibly a connection between

Neal Cassady...and someone like Kurt Cobain, both of whom took a lot of drugs...

"I don't think that Cassady was a suicide, and I don't think he was as

pained as Cobain," Ginsberg says. "Cassady was very exuberant and had a good

time.  The problem was that towards the end...the LSD didn't do him any

harm.  He smoked grass very strongly, but I think all his all-night cross

country driving, with the psychedelic bus and Kesey's Pranksters, I think he

took a lot of amphetamines.  He went down to Mexico to unwind from that and

took some downers to calm the nerves and went out walking. I think he passed

a Mexican wedding where they plied him with some other things and the

combination did him in.  But he was quite a vigorous guy and not so neurotic

really.

"But Cobain was a marvelous singer.  I hadn't heard much of him until

towards the end of his life and then I heard his unplugged version of

Leadbelly's song and it was such a perfect vocal on that and i was really

moved.  It was one of my favourite songs but I only knew Leadbelly's version

before that."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Division of Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 00:34:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Michael McClure interview/Bricolage Celebration!

 

Sorry this is such short notice for anyone in the Seattle area, but my

friend Yves, who is in the new Bricolage as well as a part of this special

reading, only forwarded this to me today. But, hell, even if you can't make

it, the magazine will STILL have the Michael McClure interview in it.

 

Cheers,

 

Malcs

 

-----------------------------------

 

                         BRICOLAGE PRESENTS

                   BRICOLAGE 1997:  THE 14TH ISSUE

 

Bricolage, the University of Washington's student literary arts magazine

proudly presents its 14th issue at a special reading at the University

Book Store (Second Floor, Main Branch, University Way) this Friday evening

at 7:00 p.m.  Please join us in congratulating the writers whose works

will appear in this year's issue, including student writers:

 

Wendy Duke                  Kit Gianas

Jason Marc Harris           Deniz Perin

Mary Krutsinger             Michael Tuttle

Michal Carillo              Sara Leslie Weiner

Barbara Graham Barker       Amanda Laughtland

Laura Dabe                  Juliet Crawford

Yves Jaques                 Heather Wellons

Michael Ricci               Donna Cheeseman

April Pierce                Jerod Allen

Deborah Miranda

 

This year's Bricolage also features poetry by faculty writers Linda Bierds

and David Shields and an interview with internationally acclaimed "beat"

poet Michael McClure.

 

Copies of Bricolage will be available for sale at the reading for $6.00.

Get yours signed by the writers and staff!

 

Shana McKibbin    Edward Jenkinson   Tim Hering       Melissa Wensel

Managing Editor   Poetry Editor      Fiction Editor   Adviser

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 02:36:16 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      A Factual Question

 

Jerry is the voice of reason sometimes.  i'm not willing to go as far as

playing devil's advocate in such a hot-furnace as this yet, but i will

ask a simple question for clarification.

 

Are the "Kerouac materials" currently the legal property of John

Sampas?

 

david rhaesa

 

 

 

 

Jerry Cimino wrote:

>

> "Just because people say you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get

> you!"

>                   Who said this?  Allen Ginsberg? ;-)

>

> I have a feeling I'm about to piss a number of people off.  So be it.  I'm a

> big boy.  I can take my lumps.

>

> We've all been witness to a lot of volleying back and forth these last few

> weeks regarding the Great Estate Debate.  We've seen namecalling (plenty of

> it!), we've seen claims and counterclaims, we've seen some pretty clever

> humor, we've seen a lot of disagreement and astonishingly (!) some honest

> dialogue.  I've got some pretty strong feelings about a lot of these things

> and I'd like to share them with you.

>

> 1).  Cease and Desist

> I've heard more than one person say it's time to call off the dogs, this

> thread has played out and certain folks seem damn tired of it.  Usually these

> come in the form of some snide or pernicious remark aimed at one of more of

> the people doing most of the talking and somebody mumbles something about

> "pet diatribes" or "infomercials".

>

> I honestly don't see what the problem is here.  If you don't want to

> participate in this thread, then there are plenty of other threads to follow

> like the Pranksters or Joy Kicks Darkness and if none of these suit your

> fancy, then start up a new one!  Correct me if i'm wrong but since AG died I

> believe Bill Gargan cranked up the daily message capacity to 100 so I don't

> believe we're gonna run out of space.  So if you don't want to participate

> then hit the delete button!  That's why God invented it!

>

> I'll tell you why you keep reading, though, most of you anyway.  Because this

> thread is damn interesting!  Personalities and flame wars aside there's a lot

> of stuff that's been learned here I bet you've never heard anywhere else.

>  And if some of it is honest disinformation, then so be it, someone who knows

> the real scoop can correct the person who may think they know what they're

> talking about.  And it doesn't have to be with accusations of perpetuating an

> "untruth". It can be as simple as someone saying "here's what I know".

>

> So hit the delete button if you must, but better yet why not contribute?  Say

> something meaningful, take a position!  It's easy to say "a pox on both your

> houses".  It's work to try to sort thru the muddle, especially when some

> people do their best to try to obfuscate the real issues by tossing in

> irrelevant asides or outrageous charges.

>

> I'm going to do everything I can to keep this thread alive.  Why?  Because in

> the time I've been on the list I haven't seen one other topic, with the

> possible exception of our coming together as a group when AG died, that is

> more important than this one.  I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me one

> other topic that we have ever discussed that can have a bigger potential

> impact than Kerouac's Archives.  And if you don't care about that, then focus

> on the other threads!

>

> 2). Conspiracy Theories

> Regardless of who used the word "conspiracy" first, I don't see why it's so

> hard for people to believe Gerry Nicosia has felt conspired against.  I don't

> see anyone trying to counter his claims Brad Parker's hotel reservations were

> cancelled or that John Sampas called Texas on John Lash's behalf or that

> Viking "coincidently" didn't renew or cancelled his contract (or whatever it

> was - must be my "foggy" memory) on Memory Babe a month after they signed a

> six book deal with John Sampas.  That is, after all, what a conspiracy is.

> Two or more people joining together to the detriment of someone else.

>

> Folks, let me tell you how I see it.  Gerry Nicosia is the only one IN THE

> ARENA!  The rest of us sit on our easy chairs with our feet up and our

> laptops on our knees giving an opinion here and there, pontificating about

> the way the world oughta be, complaining that it is all so damn complicated

> and "each side is as bad as the other only worse".  And where does that get

> anyone?

>

> Gerry Nicosia has done something about this situation!  He's taken action.

>  He's put his reputation and fortune on the line and guess what!  he's gotten

> results!  Certain people have heard him, the courts have heard him.  John

> Sampas has stopped selling off Kerouac's archives (outwardly at least, and I

> imagine most of us hope he's not doing it at all anymore).

>

> And I can't imagine any of this has been easy for Gerry, either. I would

> imagine he's been eating, breathing and living this thing for over five

> years.  Every day.  You and I have been witness to it for a couple of weeks

> in a passive way only, and then only if we decide to log on.

>

> It grates on me to hear Chaput's scholarly arguments such as "you're a liar"

> and the one line I'm sure all scholars use regularly "Go Fuck Yourself"

> played out on the same level as Gerry's usually well thought out, reasoned

> and cogent arguments.  Does Gerry lose his cool sometimes?  Sure.  Has he

> said some things he probably wishes he could take back?  I imagine he has.

>  But he's contributed a hell of lot more than "you're a liar" and "na na na

> na naa".

>

> Gerry Nicosia is a force to be reckoned with.  Anybody who's read MEMORY BABE

> can tell you that.  And what he says may not always be pretty, but it rings

> true to me.  He's shown the arguments of his opponents to be weak and

> ineffective, not with his credentials (or his big heavy boob as Patricia

> might), but with the strength of his argument.

>

> Seriously, do you think Jan Kerouac filed this lawsuit on a lark?  Do you

> think she was sitting around the house one Sunday afternoon thinking, "Hmmm,

> what should I do today?  Take in a movie?  A  walk in the park?  I know!

>  I'll sue John Sampas!"  C'mon people, lawsuits are very serious business not

> entered into lightly by most people.

>

> I wish someone could tell me what I'm missing here - and with a serious

> response, not a flippant aside.  What is it about this thread that wears on

> you?  Is it that you feel left out?  Then dive in!  Ask questions.  Pursue

> possibilities.  Play Devil's Advocate - but do it with an eye toward

> discovering the truth!  Not with an agenda of hiding what some may fear will

> get out.

>

> 3).  Scholarship

> I don't know where these Scholarship Wars came from, but I can tell you what

> I saw.  On the internet, everybody's posts look equal.  And that's fine, we

> all have something to contribute.  But when someone who's total investment in

> a situation is casually looking over a few emails while watching the Disney

> Channel and drinking a six pak makes a post it can carry the same weight as

> the post of someone who has done their research and really knows what they're

> talking about.  And that's good in a lot of ways, but it forces the rest of

> us to really examine the arguments.  And some people are just too lazy to

> make the effort and other people just want to be entertained!  And one person

> can put forth their all only to have what they say dismissed by someone who

> doesn't care or wants to hurt them by quoting them out of context.

>

> Case in point.  A number of people have jumped all over Nicosia because he

> admitted to the horrible crime that he is human and sometimes fallible.  "I

> sometimes go from memory" Gerry said and other people have tried to use that

> to show he doesn't know what he's talking about or doesn't bother to check

> his facts.  What kind of crap is that? And at least he responds to the

> challenges posed to him.  Jeffery Weinberg never bothered to answer my

> questions about Jack's raincoat and the "napkin sketch".  Nicosia doesn't

> dodge issues... he addresses them head on.

>

> So when Nicosia clips off his credentials he's simply documenting why his

> opinion is informed with regard to using original manuscripts verses xeroxes.

>  He's been trained in this, he's had experience.  I don't think he's trying

> to say he's better than anyone else although his "Send Me My Equal" post did

> obviously come off a little strong but he apologized for that almost

> immediately.  And quite frankly that's the best his detractors have been able

> to do... distract him for a short period to the point where he

> counterattacked them at their own level.  And yet no one still has made a

> sound argument that he is wrong...  only that they are tired of hearing it.

>  And I can understand that... if I had something to hide I'd be tired of

> hearing it too!

>

> 4).  Finale

> I'd like to see something good come out of all this.  And I think it can.

>  The argument that "there is nothing we can do, it'll be settled in the

> courts" is weak in my opinion.  That's giving up our own power to make

> something happen.  Every individual has the power to make something happen.

>  As a group we can raise our collective voices and DEMAND the truth.  We've

> learned some new things just in the last day or two.  I didn't know Lowell

> Celebrates Kerouac! gets a portion of its funding from John Sampas.  I think

> that is an important issue and I wonder if that is why we haven't heard from

> some of those people or if that's why Phil was so passionate in his defense

> of John.  And if this is "incorrect" I would hope someone would have the

> decency of telling me it is in error as opposed to calling me a "liar".

>

> Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light!  Bringing more truth

> to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

> to trial.

>

> I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

> maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died.  And

> maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>

> That's what I'm about!  I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>

> You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

> the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized!  Here I was looking thru

> this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

>  I was fascinated!  Tears welled up in my eyes.  I read every word I could

> see on it.

>

> That's what I'm about.  The issue is the archives.

>

> Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory.  He's fighting for you.  And

> you.  And me.

>

> And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will?  We

> have the power to investigate this.  Do we have to be so fractured that we

> can't stand to look at the truth?

>

> Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 05:02:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Motivations

 

Howard,

 

I have no doubt Sampas, Chaput, Anstee and many others have a sincere love of

Kerouac's legacy, the man and his work.  Obviously John Sampas knew Jack.

 Don't know if Phil or Rod did or did not.  I can give some ideas for

motivations, though.

 

1).  Sampas hasn't sold off any items since the lawsuit was brought (that I'm

aware of and/or that is publicly known) (and if I'm wrong on that I'm sure

someone will point it out by calling me a "liar") because Jan and Gerry

focused public attention on his actions.  By telling the world he was selling

things off they forced him into a position where he had to curtail that.  My

worry is he's still selling things off, things the world never heard of and

never will.  And if the will is judged to be forged those items will be lost

forever.

 

2).  Rod Anstee may be embarrassed or feel guilty because he bought some of

these items from Sampas.  Now I've got no truck with Rod on this.  He's doing

what collectors do, acquiring things they're interested in.  And I would

assume he bought anything he bought thinking they were legitimate purchases.

 Nothing wrong with that, the same way there is nothing wrong with Jeffrey

Weinberg acting as a dealer on what I'm sure he believed to be legitimate

transations.

 

3).  I've got no ax to grind with Phil either.  Atilla says he's a good guy

and I've met Atilla and will accept his vouching for Phil.  But if John

Sampas is a patron of LCK! and Phil's a part of that, it may be a reason why

he's in Sampas' corner.  That and the fact that he knows John personally and

does not believe he could be capable of what he's being accused of.

 

 

My question is what are the motivations of so many who are silent?  There's

been enough discussion on this so that everyone should have been able to form

an opinion.  I'm just sorry to see so many unwilling to voice them.  We can

fight over whether "Pink Floyd Rocks" but we can't fight over this?  Saying

it's "too complicated" is a cop out.  Saying "everybody is dirty" is a cop

out. Saying it's taking too long is a cop out.  This situation is serious and

saying "I don't want to be bothered" is not going to make it go away.

 

Levi just asked on a message "Why all the pointed energy on this thread?

 Does any of this really matter?"  That's the Buddhist in him talking.

 

Well, it may not matter to old Jack and Jan and Gerard and Gabrielle and

Stella and Sammy. They're all up there "Safe in Heaven, Dead", probably

looking down knowing how it's all gonna turn out anyway, laughing at how

we're all locked into our positions as we cross swords over this.

 

But we're all down here on earth, and for the living and for the yet to be

living, I for one say, "Yeah.  It matters."

 

Some things are worth fighting for.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 13:09:21 GMT

Reply-To:     i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>

Subject:      Solomon's Mishaps

 

On Thu, 15 May 1997 19:50:54 -0400,

Pamela Beach Plymell  <CVEditions@AOL.COM> wrote:

 

>In a message dated 97-05-15 11:44:54 EDT, you write:

>

><< I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

> that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading.  >>

>

>If you check out the copyright page that book was first published by Beach

>Books, Texts & Documents. They also published APO-33 by WSB. I don't believe

>LF would have touched that book if Claude and Mary hadn't pointed the way.

>I have fond memories of Carl visiting us here in Cherry Valley. He came to

>fish at the Committee.

>Pam Plymell

 

Thanks for specifying the publishing history. I found it amusing that

Ferlighetti published a book containing the lines:

 

    I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

 

Cheers,

 

bs

 

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 15:24:24 +0200

Reply-To:     danneman@Update.UU.SE

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Daniel Brdttemark <danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>

Subject:      Re: FROM ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY ITALY FROM ITALY with love.

 

This thread reminds me of a discussion we had on the list a while ago

about Kerouac translating the the french sections in Visions of Cody.

Why didn't he stick to english?

Why did he bother to translate them? Mixing languages is interesting

'cause the translation doesn't say the same thing. The nuances are

different and some feelings will get lost along the way. I understand

Rinaldo's dilemma, he wants to say so much but it doesn't come out the

way he wants it to in english, frustrating. Also when you use a

different language or dialect you do it for a reason. Everybody will not

understand it. Some people will bother to figure it out, others will

ignore it. I think mixing languages in poetry is great, in prose

sometimes not so great. But where do we draw the line

prose-poetry-listentry-conversation. Why draw the line anyway.

 

Tack for uppmarksamheten. Krama varandra pa listan (: (: (:

 

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 08:06:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      Jerry's post

 

I would like to thank Jerry for the most recent of a series of very

level-headed summaries of the recent discussion on the list. I'd agree that

in two years on this list it's by far the most important topic discussed,

perhaps not the most fun (certainly not the most annoying) but important.

 

I would add one thing only. Someone wrote in and said 'let's forget about

all this estate stuff and just read the books'. Well until the whole damn

lot goes into public domain what you read and how it's presented and what's

left out and what is 'removed from print', what is translated and how,

what's allowed on web sites, what letters are published and how

censored/edited they are, will be determined by the estate and the

publisher. So how that estate operates should be a matter of concern to all.

The publication channel has clearly opened up since Stella Sampas died, but

if it's true as alleged that the Letters were edited under the estate's

control that's very sad indeed - but hardly unusual.

 

Yes, it is a sad irony of this society that of all the writers whose estate

should turn out to be problematic, it should be Jack Kerouac's. But that's

not a good enough reason to just let the matter drop. From my reading of

bios etc, it would seem that JK really felt he was leaving a great legacy of

writing to the world, to us, and it's important that those who care try and

influence as much as possible the best handling of that legacy.

 

Nick W-W

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

 

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

 

ph:  847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 09:30:20 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Something completely different #2

 

s.a. griffin wrote:

>

> At 07:51 AM 5/15/97 -0500, david rhaesa wrote:

> >i enjoyed reading the varied posts from varied voices on the lists.  it

> >seems that the first thread (something #1) is partially devoted to

> >whether students can handle the material, whether high schools should be

> >burned and whatnot.  this seems a relevant area to question in the

> >process of determining whether to work for "incorporation" (rather than

> >pushing) beat litearture into the high school curriculum.

> >

> >so far, the suggestions of "railroad earth" and "on the road" have been

> >mentioned.  there are some who feel that other materials might not make

> >it by the school boards.  that is probably a concern.  it is more likely

> >that one would be working towards the textbook editors at first.

> >

> >so I'm asking a second kind of question in "something completely

> >different #2".   Assuming, that we did want to put forth some effort in

> >this direction, what besides "Railroad Earth" would be recommended

> >suggestions to encourage being excerpted into Survey Type Readers of

> >American Literature to provide a "taste" of this rich material.

> >

> >i seem to agree that secondary literature courses beyond the initial

> >survey should be highly optional.  Besides ON ROUTE, what beat materials

> >seem possible to get on optional readings lists.  This question probably

> >involves considering community standards a bit more.  Is Kerouac the

> >only possible introduction the students could get their hands on in the

> >classroom?  It seems that Burroughs' material unless excerpted into a

> >Burroughs' reader for this purpose would be nearly impossible to get

> >past the moral guard.  i'd be interested in others opinions on what the

> >best types in each of these categories might be.

> >

> >i appreciate y'alls response.  this is not an attempt to jump off the

> >bridge at Big Sur concerning the "Something #1" thread.  I'll take some

> >time over the next day and begin to think more actively about all the

> >comments and suggestions made and continue to post to that thread as

> >well.  i am only attempting to provide two different threads of focus on

> >this matter.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina kansas

> >

> >not sure if i'm persona non-grata at the high school anymore or not.

> >told the principal he was running a prison and not a school (a result of

> >a bit of mania and having read too much Ivan Illich on education; and

> >because it was TRUE).  i think i'm accepted in certain parts of the

> >building to do some local investigation.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >

> >

> railroad in oct. earth is a winner.  how about  watts/beat zen . . .  or

> ferlinghetti:  starting from s.f. & coney island?  i don't remember any of

> these being too rugged for hi school.  maybe even as a period piece for some

> good discussion mailer's white negro? or how about we on this list come up

> with some "suitable" stuff and put together some kind of "anthology" for

> open study in schools?  hmmmm.......  how about it?  once again we have an

> opportunity to be constructive instead destructive with our collective

> minds/imagination. gee, there's an idea, let's be creative & constructive.

> ideas like this make me happy. in the words of rodney the king, "can't we

> all just get along?" great to hear from the younger set with their opinions

> and experience. I myself being a card carrying geek/dork in jr. high & high

> school spent countless hours in the library discovering many great things

> that nobody taught in class.  of course when really do schools teach one to

> think?

>

> xxxooo

> s.a.

 

ambitious thoughts.  i wouldn't know much at all about the practical

matters.  the only nightmare that hit me during the night is that such a

reader would probably be expected to have something of an answer to the

"ohhhhh NOOOOO" question.  what is beat generation literature????  i

would suggest that such a thing be an epilogue and draw from the

previous rather than a prologue.  perhaps the Holmes thing at the end

too????

 

it would be nice if such a reader could include excerpts from "the big 5

or was it big 15"?.....  don't know whether grouping by individual or by

theme would make more sense ... something to meditate about i imagine.

 

i defer completely to y'all and your expertise in such a project.  i'm

more than willing to attempt to help focus and re-focus matters somewhat

now and then.  my voice would be more of someone reasonably new to this

subject matter and perhaps that is a useful one in thinking about the

prospective audiences.

 

a previous suggestion about cultural elements is also something which

could serve as guides to organizational schemes.

 

i must go to the post office for a registered letter.  always get

nervous about such things.... :)

 

david rhaesa

 

p.s.  i still am committed to working through the notions expressed on

something completely different #1 in a fairly systematic method of

response as soon as my brain hits systematic form again.  this is

certainly a more important project for me than giving gerry nicosia

headaches.

 

Read while listening to "My Back Pages"  ..... :)  any letter can use a

soundtrack

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 16:59:53 +0200

Reply-To:     smeraldo@iol.it

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo <smeraldo@IOL.IT>

Organization: Teatro Smeraldo

Subject:      THE FALL OF AMERICA

 

Hello everybody!

This message to communicate you that on May 21 1997, in Milan (Italy) at

Circolo Porte Aperte, Via Gian Giacomo Mora 3, there will be a reading

concert titled "The Fall of America", after Allen Ginsberg's poetic

corpus. The reading will be accompanied by three great jazz musicians:

Beppe Aliprandi (alto sax), Daniele Cavallanti (tenor sax) and Tiziano

Tononi (drums). They will play jazz tunes after Ornette Coleman (free

jazz). I will be the reader; this one is the last reading concert of

mine after three previous dedicated to Beat poets (Ferlinghetti, Jones,

Kerouac). This concert has been performed last May, 2nd in Florence

(Italy) at City Lights Bookshop, after Lawrence Ferlinghetti's reading.

If there is someone especially interested in the relationship between

jazz and Beat poetry, contact me! I will be glad to talk and discuss.

This is our best way to honorate Allen: his voice will never die...

Love to everybody,

:.) Laura

--

Laura Moja

Ufficio Stampa

Teatro Smeraldo

smeraldo.press@iol.it

http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 11:39:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dale F. Smith" <dale@PCANYTHING.COM>

Subject:      A mute voice on the Estate Battle

 

Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this?  This is

against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.)  He

taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.)  Do we really care if the

archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)?  Should we be

stressed out?  Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac?  Or did he

learn anything.  Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

but not much else.  Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

Kerouac owned?  Did they really understand him?  Would Jack have paid a

million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat?  Would he have paid a dime?

 

I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes.  I think

what they are doing is good.  I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

of Kerouac.  But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book.  In any

case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

care about the most.

 

 

Dale F. Smith

dale@pcanything.com

 

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

 

---W.B. Yeats

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:15:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Motivations

 

In a message dated 97-05-16 08:07:36 EDT, you write:

 

<< Some things are worth fighting for. >>

 

What if somebody started a fight on the Beat list, and nobody came?

 

Jul

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 09:31:52 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

 

At 01:29 AM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Since it seems to be important to someone that somebody named Johnny Depp

>>did not pay 50K for a raincoat, how much did he pay?

>

 

This question was addressed to a Jeffery Weinberg who makes a point of

indicating that he thinks it is important that someone named Johnny Deep did

not pay 50,000 for a raincoat.

 

It was not addressed to Jo Grant.

 

 

>Lazy webmaster?  Nah.

>

> Not true.

>

>Unskilled, a novice, more at home with a wheel barrow loaded with paving

>stones than computer technology, YEH. But not lazy.

>

>Disorganized, not efficient in allocating my time, YEH. Those for sure. But

>not  lazy, and not a webmaster--yet.

>

>You're taking too much for Granted.

>

>j grant

>

>

>

>

>                BE ON THE WATCH

>for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

>        O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

>http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

>

>Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

>                display books free at

>           <http://www.bookzen.com>

>     302,443  visitors since July 1, 1996

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:47:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      From the mouth of babe

 

From, _Heaven & Other Poems_ - Jack Kerouac

 

a snippet from:

 

[BIOGRAPHICAL RESUME, FALL 1957]

 

"I have been writing my heart out all my life, but only

getting a living out of it now, and the attacks are coming

in thick.  A lot of people are mad and jealous and bitter and

I only hope they also can be heard by an expanding

publishing program the size of Russia's.  Because it's not

a question of the merit of art, but a question of sponteneity

and sincerity and joy I say.  I would like everybody in the

world to tell his full life confession and tell it HIS OWN WAY

(Jack's caps, not mine) and then we'd have something to

read in our old age, instead of the hesitations and cavilings

of "men of letters" with blear faces who only alter words that

the Angel brought them..."

 

Jack Kerouac

 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Interesting tidbit in regards to the editing of "letters"

etc.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:41:38 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject:      Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <199705161539.LAA00675@pcanything.com>

 

Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too:  The best lack all

conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.  I wasn't

gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

the Good Will.  My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

capable of doing either, usually the latter.  I always meant to climb a

mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

 

John <Be cool!  And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

 

 

>Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this?  This is

>against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.)  He

>taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

>do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

>*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.)  Do we really care if the

>archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)?  Should we be

>stressed out?  Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

>piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

>outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

>loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac?  Or did he

>learn anything.  Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

>but not much else.  Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

>Kerouac owned?  Did they really understand him?  Would Jack have paid a

>million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat?  Would he have paid a dime?

>

>I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes.  I think

>what they are doing is good.  I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

>of Kerouac.  But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book.  In any

>case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

>care about the most.

>

>

>Dale F. Smith

>dale@pcanything.com

>

>The darkness drops again; but now I know

>That twenty centuries of stony sleep

>Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

>

>---W.B. Yeats

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:47:28 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

 

John Mitchell wrote:

>

> Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too:  The best lack all

> conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.  I wasn't

> gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

> the Good Will.  My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

> behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

> capable of doing either, usually the latter.  I always meant to climb a

> mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

>

> John <Be cool!  And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

>

 

i just got through scribbling JK in every piece of old clothing in the

closet.  most was bought at salvation army's and other thrifts.  it

might have been worn by Jack.  it is probably more likely than the moon

being made of green cheese ..... please let me sell something in my JK

auction before the truth gets out :)

 

david rhaesa

 

read listening to Leonard Cohen "Jazz Police"

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 14:11:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

In-Reply-To:  <l03020900afa258b65edc@[141.224.144.84]>

 

On Fri, 16 May 1997, John Mitchell wrote:

 

>I wasn't gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes,

>found at the Good Will.

 

Just curious: how did you identify them as his?

 

Speaking of all things Kerouac, how is it spelled -- is it "Kerouacian,"

like I've seen on the list as of late, or "Kerouackian"? First time I saw it

was with the "ck" and I thought it looked weird & wrong, but now every time

I see "Kerouacian" I think it's goofy too -- every time I mentally pronounce

it "care-oo-ay-see-en."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 20:22:55 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS (the dark side of a beet)

In-Reply-To:  <9705160710.AA24843@ellensburg.com>

 

dear friends beat,

everything is a-perfect, i'm a-perfect, u're a-perfect,

why the death of a mosquito is a-perfect? why u are

pulling the screw in the coffin, dark shame in the ground,

BROTHERS who loves a beet?, keep my head in the hands, come

faccio a scrivere ancora e ancora e ancora... Red Charlie

pop up Parker, red twilight, rosso tramonto veneziano,

i read JK in american or in italian, how many JK there are

in the worlds, cage is on the street... Red Cage... go on!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 13:16:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Conspiracies

In-Reply-To:  <970516023952_-1967945910@emout14.mail.aol.com>

 

On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

>>>

>Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light!  Bringing more truth

>to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

>to trial.

>

>I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

>maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died.  And

>maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>

>That's what I'm about!  I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>

>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized!  Here I was looking thru

>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

> I was fascinated!  Tears welled up in my eyes.  I read every word I could

>see on it.

>

>That's what I'm about.  The issue is the archives.

>

>Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory.  He's fighting for you.  And

>you.  And me.

>

>And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will?  We

>have the power to investigate this.  Do we have to be so fractured that we

>can't stand to look at the truth?

>

>

>Jerry Cimino

 

Jerry,

 

You have really spelled it out. THE ISSUE IS THE ARCHIVES.

 

Although I have never met Gerry Nicosia (I plan to do so at the VVAW

Conference in Chicago soon) I admire him and will support him as he carries

out Jan Keroauc's wishes. I will go all the way, for Jan. My relationship

with her was all telephone, but during her last year we spoke frequently

and soon became confidants. She was so alone. She spoke of Gerry with

reverence and told me about how he had helped her again and again--even

during periods when the pain of her health problems made her impossible to

get along with.

 

Jan told me, "He [Gerry]  has never asked me for anything. He and Ellen

have always come through for me when I needed help."

 

There were times when she would just sit with the phone in her hand and cry.

 

Shortly after I added the information about the NYU debacle she asked me if

I would edit out those parts that described her life when she was younger.

I called Gerry and asked him if he'd mind if I deleted parts. He pointed

out that those items were directly from Jan. I knew that, Jan had told me.

But she wanted to put it behind her. It existed in her book, but at this

point in her life she didn't want to see it. Gerry agreed. I edited it out.

It made her happy.

 

There's no need for me to reiterate my position on the archives of

historically  important writers. I feel as strongly about the writings of

Meridel LeSueur as I do Jack Kerouac. I personally own more video taped

material of Meridel LeSueur than anyone. Sure it cost money of the years to

be there with a camera, time and money, and I own it. But I've told

Meridel's family that once I have the video edited and ready for

broadcast--Public TV wants to show it--everything, masters, dubs, final

product will be placed, at no cost, with the rest of her collections at the

Minnesota Historical Society, with copies to U of Iowa Special Collections.

To place a price-tag on what Meridel gave to me would be disrespectful to

her memory.

 

Meridel belongs to the people. Prolitarian to the core.

 

 Kerouac belongs to the people. Prolitarian to the core? People with

literary backgrounds may have things to say about using that word to

describe him. I'd like to hear more.

 

Finally, I have had to make some modifications to my computer system since

connecting to the Beat List. Every day there is information I am compeled

to save for future reference. Ideas, insights, opinions--fascinating stuff.

And what a membership!

 

Every day, more people are agreeing that the Kerouac Archives must be

saved. The Beat-L will be a big part of making it possible.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

                BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

        O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

 

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

                display books free at

           <http://www.bookzen.com>

     302,443  visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 13:48:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jo Grant: A lazy webmaster

In-Reply-To:  <199705161631.JAA08195@hsc.usc.edu>

 

>This question was addressed to a Jeffery Weinberg who makes a point of

>indicating that he thinks it is important that someone named Johnny Deep did

>not pay 50,000 for a raincoat.

>

>It was not addressed to Jo Grant.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

jo

 

                BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

        O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

 

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

                display books free at

           <http://www.bookzen.com>

     302,443  visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 14:50:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

 

Dear Beat-L members:

 

For those of you that are concerned about the supposed editing of Kerouac's

letters by Charters before publication in the Viking Penguin edition, or for

those of you who may want to delve abit deeper into the topic of possible

censorship by the JK Estate of the volume of letters -

 

Rod Anstee wrote a long review (9-10 pgs) about "Selected Letters", including

his

research on editing by Ann Charters. This essay was published as an issue of

the Water Row Review a few years ago.

 

If you would like to receive a free copy of this essay, send me your request

by email.

This offer good only while the limited supply lasts.

 

Thanks -

 

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 15:03:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

 

Jeffrey, Please!

 

I know we're on opposite sides of the fence on certain issues, but please get

me one of these.  I truly am trying to conduct my own independent research as

has been suggested by so many.

 

Jerry Cimino

P.O. 48

Monterey, CA  93940

 

Thanks,

 

JC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 15:50:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

 

At 02:50 PM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Dear Beat-L members:

>

>For those of you that are concerned about the supposed editing of Kerouac's

>letters by Charters before publication in the Viking Penguin edition, or for

>those of you who may want to delve abit deeper into the topic of possible

>censorship by the JK Estate of the volume of letters -

>

>Rod Anstee wrote a long review (9-10 pgs) about "Selected Letters", including

>his

>research on editing by Ann Charters. This essay was published as an issue of

>the Water Row Review a few years ago.

>

>If you would like to receive a free copy of this essay, send me your request

>by email.

>This offer good only while the limited supply lasts.

>

>Thanks -

>

>Jeffrey Weinberg

>Water Row Books

>Hi Jeff, May I receive a copy? Thanks, Paul....

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 15:42:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The editing of Kerouac's Selected Letters

 

In a message dated 97-05-16 15:23:09 EDT, you write:

 

<< Jeffrey, Please!

 

 I know we're on opposite sides of the fence on certain issues, but please

get

 me one of these.  I truly am trying to conduct my own independent research

as

 has been suggested by so many.

  >>

 

Hey, Jerry:

 

No problem, man. I'll put a copy of Anstee's essay in the mail to you today.

JW

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 15:46:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Rod Anstee's essay

 

I forgot to mention to the Beat-L:

 

I need your snail-mail address to send you Rod's essay on JK's Selected

Letters book. It is a booklet that we published a few years ago.

Thanks -

Jeffrey

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Conspiracies

 

At 01:16 PM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On 05-16-97 Jerry Cimino wrote:

>>>>

>>Discussing these issues can bring more truth to light!  Bringing more truth

>>to light might have an impact on the situation either before or when it goes

>>to trial.

>>

>>I honestly and truly believe we can debate and discuss these issues, and

>>maybe do it with the same sense of "sharing" that we did when AG died.  And

>>maybe by doing that we can help preserve Jack's Archives.

>>

>>That's what I'm about!  I've said it before - the issue is the archives.

>>

>>You know when I was in San Fran a few months ago and saw the OTR scroll for

>>the first time with my own eyes I was mesmerized!  Here I was looking thru

>>this piece of glass at a mythical document that changed my life 20 years ago.

>> I was fascinated!  Tears welled up in my eyes.  I read every word I could

>>see on it.

>>

>>That's what I'm about.  The issue is the archives.

>>

>>Gerry Nicosia isn't fighting for fame and glory.  He's fighting for you.  And

>>you.  And me.

>>

>>And like I said before, if we don't do it here on the Beat-L, who will?  We

>>have the power to investigate this.  Do we have to be so fractured that we

>>can't stand to look at the truth?

>>

>>

The truth? The problem with stating the truth is that the truth will get you

blasted, threatened, ridiculed, and above all, doubted. I sincerely think

the idea of a conspiracy is ill-founded. The signature on the will looks

like any of the other items that are from Gabrielle Kerouac's hand AFTER HER

STROKE. I don't think matching it before she was an invalid is valid and

admittable as evidence.

>And it is not fair. I had the liberty of seeing letters and contracts from

the archive and now I can see what a horrible waste of time this all is. So

there...blast me. I could care less right now for explanations or ways to

make me look foolish or branded an arch-criminal. My educated mind tells me

different than all the propaganda you have been fed. I inquired, I saw, I am

now convinced. Goodnight all, Regards, Paul Maher of The Kerouac Quarterly...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:57:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: PLEASE, DON'T READ THIS (the dark side of a beet)

 

At 08:22 PM 5/16/97 +0200, you wrote:

>dear friends beat,

>everything is a-perfect, i'm a-perfect, u're a-perfect,

>why the death of a mosquito is a-perfect? why u are

>pulling the screw in the coffin, dark shame in the ground,

>BROTHERS who loves a beet?, keep my head in the hands, come

>faccio a scrivere ancora e ancora e ancora... Red Charlie

>pop up Parker, red twilight, rosso tramonto veneziano,

>i read JK in american or in italian, how many JK there are

>in the worlds, cage is on the street... Red Cage... go on!

>

 

rinaldo

 

is

      beautiful

 

eye am dumb

 

beet soup is sweet

 

john cage is

is on the

            street

 

i am dumb

iam dumb

iamdumb

dumb

dum

 

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 12:57:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "s.a. griffin" <perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: A mute voice on the Estate Battle

 

At 12:41 PM 5/16/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Yeah, thanks for the Yeats (the Irish Burroughs!) too:  The best lack all

>conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.  I wasn't

>gonna mention this, but I happen to own a pair of Kerouac's shoes, found at

>the Good Will.  My question is, should I try to walk in them or put them

>behind plexiglass and stare at them for the rest of my life? (I'm fully

>capable of doing either, usually the latter.  I always meant to climb a

>mountain, but have decided to wait until it collapses and step over it.)

>

>John <Be cool!  And if you can't be cool, don't drool!> M.

>

>

>>Are we not pissing on Jack's grave by even worying about all this?  This is

>>against everything he ever stood for (so far as I've been able to tell.)  He

>>taught us to be free, to love life and to remember that all of everything we

>>do is meaninless in the mind of the universe (allthough I can't say that

>>*he* was meaningless in the mind of the universe.)  Do we really care if the

>>archive dies (enter the "100 years from now" thingamagig)?  Should we be

>>stressed out?  Isn't a "scholar" spending hours of the day inside a library

>>piecing together his concept of what Kerouac did and why instead of going

>>outside, breathing in the air and screaming at the top of his lungs that he

>>loves his life defeating everything he learned from Kerouac?  Or did he

>>learn anything.  Maybe what books were on Jack's shelf when he wrote OTR,

>>but not much else.  Why would someone buy (for a high price) ANYTHING that

>>Kerouac owned?  Did they really understand him?  Would Jack have paid a

>>million dollars for Uncle Walt's Raincoat?  Would he have paid a dime?

>>

>>I do not mean to belittle the work of Mr. Nicosia and the likes.  I think

>>what they are doing is good.  I would read a "scholarly" book on the works

>>of Kerouac.  But I would not loose sleep if there were no such book.  In any

>>case, Jack will move on, in the words he left behind, and that is what I

>>care about the most.

>>

>>

>>Dale F. Smith

>>dale@pcanything.com

>>

>>The darkness drops again; but now I know

>>That twenty centuries of stony sleep

>>Were vexed to nightmere by a rocking cradle,

>>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

>>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

>>

>>---W.B. Yeats

>

>

I have one of Micheline's grey funky hats that I wear upon occasion.

 

 

xxxooo

s.a.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 16:16:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ginny Browne <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: AG's grave??

 

In a message dated 97-05-15 14:17:51 EDT, you write:

 

>  But wherever Louis is buried

 

newark NJ.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 16:16:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Conspiracies

 

Paul,

 

I applaud you coming forward to say what you know.

 

I'm not here to blast you or ridicule you and certainly not to threaten you.

 

Help me here, Paul.  Educate me.  I have not had the experience of seeing

Gabrielle's signature either before or after she had a stroke.  Convince me

of what you know!  What convinced you?  Why do you believe the signature is

legitimate?  I'm not doubting you... I simply want to know your reasons.

 

Also, how does this whole concept of Gabrielle's signature jive with what

Nicosia said two weeks ago about Gabrielle signing checks a year after she

was dead?  As I recall he alleged that Paul Blake continued to send Gabrielle

money and somebody was cashing the checks - up to a year or more after she

was dead.  Now I don't know if bank records still exist to that effect, but

if they do then you've got to admit a dead woman signing checks makes a

pretty strong case that somebody was in the habit of signing her name.

 

Also, could you or someone else enlighten me as to the details of the stroke?

When, how severe, etc.  Quite frankly if I heard before that she had had a

stroke I don't remember it.

 

I'm not arguing with you here, Paul.  I simply want to know why what you saw

convinces you.

 

 

 

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 21:59:08 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mthorn <mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>

Subject:      Estate Eclipse

 

It takes something big to put the redoubtable

Charlie Plymell in the shade. I have followed

Nicosia's postings closely. This is a serious

business. And I believe N. is right to wonder

why significant parties are not willing to argue

the point in this forum. It costs nothing to join

Beat-L.

Frankly, until Ann Charters etc. join the discussion

it's difficult to take a properly informed position.

When I wrote my biography of Tennyson, I was

able to make use of the marvellous Tennyson Centre

at Lincoln. Not ALL the mss. are there (others are in

Cambridge, and lots in America), but it does make

scholarly research easier when things are not too dispersed.

I can't imagine Ann Charters would want to argue with

that, so there is obviously more to this than meets the eye

or ear.

Michael Thorn

mthorn@fastnet.co.uk

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 16 May 1997 18:08:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Truth!

 

Paul Maher brought up the concept of Truth earlier.

 

His point reminded me of the line from Jesus Christ Superstar -

 

"But what is Truth? Is Truth unchanging law?  We both have Truths. Are mine

the same as yours?"  Hosannah Superstar.....

 

 

Truth is a major issue here. And just like two people can witness an accident

and describe different versions of the same event, two people of good faith

can see different Truths when looking at situations like this Estate Battle

and not be devious, not be coniving and not be crafty.

 

These are differences we should discuss, openly and candidly, without

namecalling and without accusations.  And we should attempt to convince each

other that one particular version of the Truth might have more vailidity than

another.  After all, if six people witness an accident and five of them say

car A was at fault and only one insists car B was at fault we might have

reason to suspect the case against car A is stronger than car B. And if

during the course of discussion we discover that the one person who blames

car B also happens to be the brother-in-law or what ever of the driver of car

A then there might be reason for that person to see things differently than

others and the case against car A is even stronger.

 

Truth can be a two edge sword, however.  Because sometimes people can get

blinded by the Truth.  Sometimes people get so focused on what they think

should be everybody's Truth that when the light starts to shine it comes out

that it is only their version of the Truth.

 

 

Case in point:

 

I'm sure a lot of you saw the movie A FEW GOOD MEN.  It was out a few years

ago starring Jack Nicholson as a grizzled old Marine Lifer and Tom Cruise as

a Young Buck Military Attorney who goes nose to nose with Jack.  Demi Moore

was in there somewhere, and no offense to her but she's a side issue to the

point here.

 

The story concerns itself with the apparent accidental death of some young

guy who happened to be stationed at Guantanamo which is the base Jack

Nicholson was in charge of when it happened.  The highlight of the story is

when everybody flies into Washington DC for the big showdown.  Jack Nicholson

swaggers up to the witness stand, full of bravado and bluster, confident this

young upstart Cruise can't touch him.  After all, he's been in the military

longer than Cruise has been alive, he's been in combat, he helped saved the

world from the commies and Cruise is some wet behind the ears hotshot who's

never even held a rifle in his hands.

 

So Cruise is grilling Nicholson, making a few jabs, not getting anywhere and

ole Jack's got the jury eating out of his hands.  And Cruise finally, in

desperation because he's out of tricks, makes a desperate accusation that

could cost him his career if he's wrong and possibly even land him in the

brig.  But he puts it out there anyway, oblivious to the danger he's placing

himself in.

 

"Why are you asking this, Counselor?" Nicholson asks him.

 

"Because I want to know what happened down there!" Cruise shoots back.

 

"And why do you need to know that?" Jack cracks snidely.

 

"Because I'm after the Truth!" Cruise shouts.

 

"YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" Jack fires back.

 

And the courtroom is stunned into silence because now it is evident that

there is a story to tell, and Nicholson proceeds to tell it, with the full

confidence that every one will see it his way... see his version of the

Truth.  And the Truth does come out and while the audience and the jury are

sympathetic with Jack's version of the Truth, they also know he's wrong.  His

version of the Truth is flawed and when he's convicted he can't undertsnd why

- how can the others not see the Truth he sees?

 

 

I'm wondering how many Jack Nicholsons there may be on this list.

 

I'm wondering how many people are convinced their version of the Truth is the

only version.

 

 

Tell your story. Together with mine and everyone else's maybe we can see

things more clearly.

 

 

Jerry Cimino

 



back