beat list 1996

> me of Kerouac's writing. They had much else in common, too: Catholicism,

I agree about This Side of Paradise -- in fact I was thinking about this

myself recently. It is certainly Fitzgerald's spontaneous piece of

writing (prob. because it was his first novel), and in ways he acheives

the natural flow and unpretentious tone that Kerouac worked hard to

find. It's interesting that Fitzgerald began as a spontaneous writer

and then became the opposite (with Gatsby and Tender is the Night),

whereas Kerouac's first novel (Town and the City) is somewhat studied and

stiff in tone -- only after this novel did he discover the spontaneous

prose style (with help from Neal Cassady).

Also, both writers were considered has-beens at the time of their

death, and did not become accepted as "serious" literary figures until

later. (With Kerouac, the process is still going on, I think).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Let's head back to Tennessee, Jed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:03:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: L00K homeward, Matt.

Hello folks. William Miller here. Back on the list after an absence.

Matthew S Sackmann wrote:

> I found some awesome books in a used book store today. I was

> wondering what you guys think about the prices. $25 for a first edition

> of Visions of Cody, hardcover. $30 for a 1rst ed. of Maggie Cassidy,

> soft. And $60 for the 1rst british ed. of Maggie Cassidy, 1rst hardcover

> ed. I didnt buy these but i did buy Satori in Paris & Pic, Grace beats

> Karma (finally, ive found some of neals writings), On the Road (a copy

> for my brother), No nature (Snyder), Look Homeward, Angel (Wolfe), and a

> book that contains poems by Bukowski and Phillip Lamantia. All in all it

> was a very successful outing!

> Goodnight

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> matt

Matt, I'm interested.... did you buy a 1st edition of Look Homeward Angel, or

not?? Please e-mail me directly and let me know if you bought a 1st, and if

so, what you paid for it. Being part of the best used bookstore in Wolfe's

hometown (the setting for most of LHA) I am always interested in knowing what

LHA is fetching.

Thanks.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 22:20:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

>Aside from the standard Lost Generation - Beat Generation connections,

>I think it is rather facinating that so many assume that Kerouac's entire

>canon is a big drug fest just like they assume all of Fitzgerald's canon is

>one big alcoholic party.

I wonder about the reason for the drinking. Was Kerouac very uncomfortable

in social situations? Remember how FitzG. humiliated himself at the

Hollywood party? (Crazy Sunday was based on the incident.) He could only

face social situations if anesthesized (drunk.) Was Kerouac similarly

uncomfortable? My guess is that alcohol serves as a sort of psychological

defense mechanism, which substitutes for personal growth. I'm amazed at how

brilliant they were in their writing, and how dense about their personal

lives.

>By reading "Babylon revisted" one can see the

>obvious error in this image of Fitzgerald and I think we all know that

>Kerouac's canon goes much deeper than the beatnik image.

Babylon Revisited is about the consequences of his fast lifestyle. Did

Kerouac later regret his heavy drug and alcohol use? I haven't read his

later books such as Big Sur yet. Though I don't have their writing talent,

I recognize a lot of myself in them and if I criticize them, it's because

I had similar problems and experiences. (Though I'm lucky enough not to

have an alcohol problem.) I think in both writers its their "romantic sense

of possibility," or "a sort of epic grandeur" that's attractive. By the

way, has anyone else read the chapter on Kerouac and Ginsberg in Gore

Vidal's "Palimpsest" yet? Vidal himself is an interesting writer, and I

intend to read "The City and the Pillar," along with Jack's "The Town and

the City" over the summer.

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:55:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

I think Kerouac inherited his alcoholism from his mother and possibly his

father too. There seem to be certain personality traits that go along with such

an inheritance, such as shyness in social situations, which of course, drinking

seems to ease. If I remember correctly, it was in the Nicosia biography that

mentioned Jack's attempt to stay away from big parties, because he was trying

to cut back on his drinking. Such was the case when Neal had a hard time

getting him to come into NYC from his mothers house (on Long Island?) to that

party where he met Kesey.

There is a good discussion on writing and drinking in the latest issue of BOMB

Magazine in the interview with Padgett Powell, who it seems, is kicking the

habit.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:13:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Robert Hunter and Kerouac

For anyone interested, with the available technology, there will be a

"Psychedelic Cyber Reunion" with Ken Kesey and Tim Leary on the CU SEE ME video

conference next Friday, May 10th. It will start approx. 4 pm and go to 7 pm

(I guess west coast time). For info updates, check the following web sites;

www.fishwwrap.com/hazardous

and or

www.leary.com

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:18:10 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dame Agnes Guano <NN279@LAMP.AC.UK>

Subject: The Beats in Mexico

I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

Kerouac like dysentery.

Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:24:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Comments: cc: Dame Agnes Guano <NN279@LAMP.AC.UK>

In-Reply-To: <831640691.101336.NN279@lamp.ac.uk>

On Thu, 9 May 1996, Dame Agnes Guano wrote:

> I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

> a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

> whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

> seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

> Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

> over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

> along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

> All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

> Kerouac like dysentery.

> Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

Burroughs's writing has all sorts of Mexican references from _Queer_ on,

but I think his best writing about Mexico is in _The Wild Boys_, if only

for the first section. The part about the witch and the evil eye are

great and the whole book is worth it for the lines from that same section,

"Vulgar queer, your arm hairs are blowing in our soup... (later) I hope

you slip on a piece of soap and fall off your balcony" Haha. _The Wild

Boys_ has always been one of my favourites come to think of it, the Green

Nun routine is hilarious. _Queer_ also has extensive parts based in

Mexico but is a much more dense and sad book.

As for sadness and Mexico there's always _Tristessa_ (sorry couldn't help

it), which details Kerouac's flirtations with junk (and eventual

abandonment of it for alcohol), and his misguided love for a junky.

Have Fun,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:41:54 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jon Schwartz <JBS@UWYO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fitzgerald and Kerouac

I suppose this may be stating the obvious, but one aspect of Kerouac's

alcohol abuse early on could reasonably fall into the realm of

self-medication attempts. His emotional pain from childhood and young adult

experiences (Gerard and father's death, etc.) are well documented. None of

this is intended to be "either-or" oriented, as I imagine multiple causes or

triggers are the rule here.

Regards to all,

Jon Schwartz

jbs@uwyo.edu

>I think Kerouac inherited his alcoholism from his mother and possibly his

>father too. There seem to be certain personality traits that go along with

>such

>an inheritance, such as shyness in social situations, which of course,

>drinking

>seems to ease. If I remember correctly, it was in the Nicosia biography

that

>mentioned Jack's attempt to stay away from big parties, because he was

trying

>to cut back on his drinking. Such was the case when Neal had a hard time

>getting him to come into NYC from his mothers house (on Long Island?) to

that

>party where he met Kesey.

>There is a good discussion on writing and drinking in the latest issue of

BOMB

>Magazine in the interview with Padgett Powell, who it seems, is kicking the

>habit.

>Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:05:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Comments: cc: Brett.NN279@lamp.ac.uk

>I was wondering if all you kind wonderful people out there could help me with

>a bunch of suggestions for beat writings on Mexico. Poetry, prose, letters,

>whatever. Nothing is too obvious or too obscure, from On the Road to a seldom

>seen letter. For the record, I am a first year English Literature student in

>Wales (buy a decent atlas) and should be in Mexico for about a month or two

>over the summer, wasting the money of decent tax paying citizens. Something

>along the lines of "Anglo-American attitudes to Mexico" or some such nonsense.

>All contributions greatly lovingly received and here's to a fine dose of

>Kerouac like dysentery.

>Brett NN279@lamp.ac.uk

Mexico Fellaheen by kerouac from Lonesone Traveller.

Also by Kerouac, Tristessa

and large portions of Desolation Angels

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:32:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Karen Lawler <klawler@EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mail List

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199605062244.SAA20132@mime3.prodigy.com>

please remove me from this mailing list

karen

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Gary Snyder

One of my students has concentrated her semester work on the poetry of Gary

Snyder. She has been so taken by his work that she is trying to find out if

he is teaching courses anywhere. Is he affiliated with any university?

Thanks in advance for any helpful information.

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:51:20 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: Gary Snyder

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM> "Gary Snyder" (May 9, 4:44pm)

UC Davis, I think.

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 06:59:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Beats in Mexico

Brett,

Here's the best I could do:

Two letters in _The Letters of William S. Burroughs, 1945-1959_, both dated

"May 1951", one to Kerouac and one to A. Ginsberg, both addressed "37 Cerrada

de Medellin, Mexico City" made very clear how Burroughs felt about Mexico

City at the time. It seems that WSB felt a need to dispel Allen and Jack's

romantic notions, having lived there himself.....

Also the Introduction to _Queer_ (also Burroughs) contains some valuable

material.

Also I found a letter dated Jan 22, 1950, WSB->JK "Mexico is undoubtedly the

place for you...."

The contrast between first and last letters from Mexico:

Sept 26, 1949 (WSB-> JK): "Mexico is very cheap...fabulous cock fights and

whorehouses...I strongly urge you to visit"

Nov. 5, 1952 (WSB->AG): "I hope this is my last letter from Mexico...all I

want is out of this miserable cold town...three years in this town and no one

I want to say good-bye to when I leave, except Marker"

You definitely should look for _The Letters of WSB_ and _Queer_, if nothing

else. If memory serves correctly, Mexico City is the opening setting of

_Wild Boys_ also....

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:40:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: beat books

A few years back I was getting a catalog called "Beat books" put out by

Steve Ronan who writes beat related articles. I believe he worked at City

Lights in San Francisco at one time. He had some great used beat books in

those catalogs but I haven't received any in a long while. Does anyone still

get this catalog or have Steve's address or maybe even his phone number?

Also any info on other beat book catalogs would be appreciated.

Phil Chaput-Lowell Mass. e-mail philzi@tiac.net

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: BEAT PUBLICATIONS

Hello Phil Chaput! Responding to your inquiry bout Steve Ronan's BEAT BOOKS &

other Beat Publications. Here are a few names & addresses for you & I thought

some others might desire: Stephen Ronan, Beat Books, P.O. Box 5813, Berkley,

CA 94705; Water Row Books, P.O. Box 438, Sudbury, MA 01776

(Waterrow@aol.com); Waiting for Godot, P.O. Box 331, Hadley, MA 01035 (FAX

413-586-1731); Hanuman Books, 222 West 23rd St., NY NY 10011-2301 (FAX

212-633-8655); Alpha Beat Press, 31 A. Waterloo St., New Hope, PA 18938

(215-862-0299); Gotham Book Mart & Gallery, 41 West 47th St., NY NY 10036

(212-719-4448); City Lights Books, 261 Columbus Ave, San Francisco, CA 94133

(415-362-1901); Audio Literature, P.O. Box 7123, Berkley, CA 94707

(415-878-1831); Rhino Records, 1720 Westwood Blvd, Los Angeles, CA 90024

(310-474-8685); Viking Penguin, 375 Hudson St., NY NY 10014; Grove Atlantic,

841 Broadway, NY NY 10003; Thunder's Mouth Press, 93-99 Greene Street, NY NY

10012; Soft Skull Press, 50 East Third Street #5A, NY NY 10003

(212-533-6152); John LeBow Books, 117 Langford Road, Candia, NH 03034

(603-483-5595); Hozomeen Press, P.O. Box 174, Mystic, Connecticut 06355

(HozmnPress@aol.com); & White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville,

Kentucky 40206, (502-568-4956 or RWhiteBone@aol.com).

There are plenty of others but this is a list of some of the main ones. If

you have any questions or want more info let me know. All the Best, Ron

Whitehead (RWhiteBone@aol.com) 5/10/96 12:24PM

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:22:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm1.mcgill.ca>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm1.mcgill.ca>

In-Reply-To: <v01510101adb5b548ab7e@[204.186.21.51]>

> >oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

> >discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

> >beatniks...that bugs me, ya know?

> The columnist (I think it was Herb Caen of the San Francisco examiner)

> coined the phrase "beatnik" as a put-down, to imply leftist, "pink," or

> communist tendencies. (I suppose based on "sputnik.") It was during the

> Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

> Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

> and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

> Hecht's memoir, "Child of the Century," but couldn't locate it in the book

> later on.

It was indeed Herb Caen who coined the term, and it was a play on the

paranoia of the time about communism, based on the word "sputnik", but

it's my understanding (don't get me wrong, I'm not positive, this is

based on one source now forgotten, perhaps the Charters Kerouac bio) that

it wasn't originally intended to be derogatory. Can anyone back me up on

this?

Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:14:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Beatnik, Sputnik & F. Scott Fitzgerald

In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960510164423.19690A-100000@ccshst08>

reagardless of its original context, I think it has slowly developed a

cultural stigma that is not all together positive and is overly

stereotypical..

-------------

Jonathan Kratter

jonkrat@nueva.pvt.k12.ca.us

"What kind of sordid business are you on now? I mean, man,

whither goest thou? Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in

the night?"

-On the Road, Jack Kerouac

On Fri, 10 May 1996, The Guelph Peak wrote:

> > >oh oh oh! Teacher, teacher, call on me, teacher! No, actually, we were

> > >discussing this in english today, and everyone called the Beats

> > >beatniks...that bugs me, ya know?

> >

> > The columnist (I think it was Herb Caen of the San Francisco examiner)

> > coined the phrase "beatnik" as a put-down, to imply leftist, "pink," or

> > communist tendencies. (I suppose based on "sputnik.") It was during the

> > Cold War at it's worst. By the way, was Kerouac ever interviewed by Ben

> > Hecht? Not remembered today, Hecht was a famous reporter and screenwriter,

> > and Kerouac was drunk for the interview. I thought I read the incident in

> > Hecht's memoir, "Child of the Century," but couldn't locate it in the book

> > later on.

> It was indeed Herb Caen who coined the term, and it was a play on the

> paranoia of the time about communism, based on the word "sputnik", but

> it's my understanding (don't get me wrong, I'm not positive, this is

> based on one source now forgotten, perhaps the Charters Kerouac bio) that

> it wasn't originally intended to be derogatory. Can anyone back me up on

> this?

> Paul

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:23:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CANAPP <Canapp@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Sorry About Wrong Address <g>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 11 May 96 22:14:08 EDT

From: Mailer-Daemon@cris.com

To: Canapp@cris.com

Subject: Returned mail: User unknown

----- Transcript of session follows -----

Connected to mailhost.cris.com:

>>> RCPT To:<BEAT-L@cunyvm>

<<< 553 <BEAT-L@cunyvm>... Never heard of cunyvm in domain cris.com

550 <BEAT-L@Cunyvm>... User unknown

----- Unsent message follows -----

Received: from localhost by mariner.cris.com (4.1) id AA04553; Sat, 11 May 96

22:14:08 EDT

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 22:14:08 -0400 (EDT)

From: CANAPP <Canapp@cris.com>

To: BEAT-L@cunyvm

Subject: The Powder Room

Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960511220651.4025A-100000@mariner.cris.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi, fellow Beats:

I just want to write and let you gals out there know, there is a new group

for "significant other females" regarding the Viet Nam war, and Vets.

Mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, and any other females who experienced

problems, loss, anger, whatever, etc., concerning Viet Nam.

The new group is called "The Powder Room" and we hope to have many

contributers. If anyone is interested, please email me personally.

Thank you, and sorry for the no Beat content.

Mary Beth:))

canapp@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 19:38:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Lucien Carr?????

I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

this name before. Did Lucien Carr write? Is he still alive. He looks like

a twin of River Pheonix.

Dolores

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:05:12 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

I don't recall that Lucien Carr ever wrote anything. But his son, Caleb, has

written a few, including most recently, The Alienist ( a best seller even).

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 00:43:14 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960511193546.16017B-100000@crl5.crl.com>

That would make sense--I mean his looking like River Phoenix. Lucien

Carr is supposed to have been extraordinarily beautiful. Some guy came

on to him so strong that he had to stab the guy to death--on the sheeny

nighttime shore of the Hudson near Grant's Tomb as I recall.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a tale of curious circuitry

http://www.idiom.com/~and_how/PAGE.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sat, 11 May 1996, Dolores Neese wrote:

> I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

> into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

> classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

> this name before. Did Lucien Carr write? Is he still alive. He looks like

> a twin of River Pheonix.

> Dolores

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 12:07:47 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: lucien carr

dolores

"kerouac was fascinated by the tone of the word 'beat' as hunke said it hunched

over a cup of coffee in a times square cafe....kerouac's insistence that the

word possessed deeper allusive qualities and meant something mysterious &

spiritual, suggestive of herman melvilles story more than a century before about

archetypal american non-conformist 'bartleby the scrivener', grew out of his

conversations with ginsberg & ginsberg's friend lucien carr, another columbia

undergraduate in the new york group.

ginsberg & carr were only eighteen-year-old college students at the time, but

they were drawn to literature and were using drugs like benzedrine and marijuana

in their dormitory rooms near the columbia campus to inspire them create what

they called a 'new vision' of art. they were atempting to follow the example of

the french poet arthur rimbaud, whom carr introduced to ginsberg as the ideal

poet. their efforts were the earliest attempts of the group later labelled

'beat writers' to define a philosophy.

....kerouac went to jail as a material witness for helping lucien carr destroy

evidence after carr fatally stabbed david kammerer, another member of the early

group around columbia."

taken from 'the portable beat reader'

joe

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:54:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: lucien carr

Lucien Carr is alive, I presume well, and lives in Washington, DC. He is (I

believe) retired after a long career with United Press International.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:20:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject: Raid Kills Bugs Dead

I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:05:59 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Raid Kills Bugs Dead

In-Reply-To: <9605130020.AA24667@su1.in.net>

Well, it's true if you believe Robert Hass. He said so during an

interview with Terry Gross of NPR about two weeks ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a tale of curious circuitry

http://www.idiom.com/~and_how/PAGE.HTML

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sun, 12 May 1996, Douglas Dusseau wrote:

> I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

> responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

> anyone know if there is any truth to this?

> Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 18:39:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Michael E. Frank" <ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

Dolores; In a message dated 96-05-11 22:46:19 EDT, you write:

>I've started reading Birth of the Beat Generation, by Steven Watson, and

>into the first chapter there appears a character, Lucien Carr, who was a

>classmate of Ginsberg's at Columbia U. I don't recall ever coming across

>this name before...

"...and returned to New York (Kerouac ' 51) not long after the publication of

his first novel, 'The Town and the City'. Once back, he moved in with an old

friend from the days around Columbia named Lucien Carr. At the time Carr was

living in a loft apartment on West Twenty-first Street and was working for

United Press.

As he (Kerouac) tried out his new technique ("Spontaneous Prose") on long

letters and short stories, he found that the only thing that slowed him down

was changing sheets of paper in the typewriter....The problem was solved by

Lucien Carr one night when he brought home a full roll of United Press

teletype paper that he had lifted from the office. Kerouac was delighted. He

saw that all he had to do was insert one end of the roll into his typewriter,

and he could keep going for days and days.

Carr remembers that shortly after the manuscript was finished a little dog

he had at the time attacked the roll and chewed up the last few feet of it.

'It had perforce to be rewritten,' he says, 'but I know for a fact that was

the only part of "On the Road" that was rewritten.' " "The Beat

Generation", Bruce Cook, 1971.

Off-the-topic query: Does anyone have a translation of the "Drunken Boat",

Rimbaud other than than the one by Le Clercq?? Appreciate if you can mail to

me at:

atrane207@aol.com Thanks. Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 01:43:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matt Sackmann <LSACKMA@UOFT02.BITNET>

Subject: hellooo...

Well, i had to move email addresse so i've missed our discussions for

about a week or so. Ive just started reading Dharma Bums today, and i

must say 'I love it!' More fun to read than Desolation Angels, it's a lot

happier so far. Im getting ready to head off to Alaska to attempt to

find a summer job (in three weeks) and my friends and i intend to do a

lot of hiking up there and in Washington (waiting for the ferry).

Thats all

-matt

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 04:04:59 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marcus Williamson <71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Drunken Boat

Michael

For info about the Drunken Boat try :

http://www.altavista.digital.com/

and use "Drunken Boat" (with quotes) as your search - there's quite a lot

there including Rimbaud, a band called "Drunken Boat" and a song

by the Pogues...! :-)

regards

Marcus

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:01:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Lucien Carr?????

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 13 May 1996 18:39:09 -0400 from

<ATRANE207@AOL.COM>

Yes, if you look at the manuscript that's currently on tour in the Beat exhibit

, you'll still see the ravages of Lucien's dog's teeth.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:04:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Drunken Boat

Hello! Anyone interested in deeper research on Drunken Boat the band contact

Todd Colby, one of the finest young poets in the country (two books out with

Soft Skull Press, NYC) who is also lead singer for Drunken Boat plus Director

of Poetry Readings at St. Mark's Poetry Project. Contact addresses: Todd

Colby, 275 Union St., Brooklyn, NY 11231; Soft Skull Press, 50 East Third

Street #5A, NY NY 10003, phone 212-533-6152; St.Mark's Poetry Project, 131 E.

10th St., NY NY 10003, phone 212-674-0918. If you need more info on any of

above give me a holler. Thanks!

Ron Whitehead, White Fields Press, 1387 Lexington Road, Louisville, Kentucky

40206, phone 502-568-4956, e-mail RWhiteBone@aol.com 5/14/96 9:03AM

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 08:12:24 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE LEE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Lew Welch--"Raid Kills Bugs Dead" (fwd)

Comments: cc: bosstoad@cris.com

Howdy folks,

I am forwarding this response from a friend who's having trouble posting to

this list.

--Bonnie

---------------forwarded message follows---------------

Yes, it's true. Well, maybe. The source of the story is in Aram Saroyan's

biography Genesis Angels, but I'm not sure Saroyan can be trusted (he

doesn't identify his sources), and the claim may not be true. Saroyan never

talked to Lew, that I know for a fact. I don't recall seeing the Raid ad

claim in the interview Lew gave Dave Meltzer around 1969-1970, from which

Saroyan got a good part of his bio material. Saroyan says "Lew Welch wrote

the classic slogan 'Raid Kills Bugs Dead' . . . before he quit advertising

for good in July of 1958." (Page 109.) I can't buy that. My research

indicates Lew was doing layout and copy work for Wards in Oakland in 1958

and got fired from the job, after which he chucked it all to live the life

of a poet. OP

At 08:20 PM 5/12/96 -0400, Douglas Dusseau wrote:

>I heard recently that Lew Welch while working at an Ad agency was

>responsible for coining the advertising slogan: Raid - Kills bug dead. Does

>anyone know if there is any truth to this?

>Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:38:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: Lucien Carr

Hello! Forwarding this info for Sara in Chicago. I just recvd copy of

articles from her &, although I was already familiar with the history of UC

censorship debacle, this is great work material. As many/most of you know the

spirit of censorship (yes to point of being Orwellian) is growing daily. I

went thru similar experience to Rosenthal/Carroll. Investigation by Univ of

Louisville really started in fall of '92 right after Allen Ginsberg read

"Sphincter" to audience of 1,500 at U of L. I brought Amiri Baraka two weeks

later & from that point on U of L President & staff waged all out war both in

press & behind scenes to threaten with imprisonment & scare all staff helpers

& completely dismantle all I had built for the literary renaissance. I was

stamped OUTLAW. I had already been banished when, as my last gesture, I

brought Lawrence Ferlinghetti to read & visit. Thomas Merton had spent last

night of his life in USA at Ferlinghetti's in California & Lawrence asked me

to arrange visit to his grave at Abbey of Gethsemani, Trappist, Kentucky.

After meditating on Merton's grave we had long talk & decided to make break

official & permanent from University & officially form the literary

renaissance, a non-profit organization supporting the global literary

community, out of which White Fields Press was born. Whole mad story to be

told in PUBLISHED IN HEAVEN: the birth of the literary renaissance. Hopefully

it will be birthed in '97.

All the Best from Sara Ellefson & Ron Whitehead 5/14/96 1:37PM

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: Sara.Ellefson@infores.com (Sara Ellefson)

To: RWhiteBone@aol.com

Date: 96-05-14 12:07:18 EDT

Hi Ron,

I've been unable to post to the list. If you could, be a dear and

post this for me . . . I'd be forever grateful. You can either

forward this to the list or copy and paste it to a new message,

doesn't matter to me.

Thanks a bunch.

I've got a wonderful 2-part article from 'The Reader' a free Chicago

weekly newspaper . . . it is about the censorship of the Winter '59

Chicago Review (U of Chicago Lit Mag) . . . part of which deals with

Lucien Carr:

"Not all of the winter manuscripts were ready that Friday, because of

a minor snafu with the Kerouac piece, "Lucien Midnight." "Lucien" was

Kerouac's friend Lucien Carr, who had been convicted of murder in the

late 40s. Carr had served some prison time, but by 1958 he was a free

man again. Kerouac referred to the crime in "Lucien Midnight." When

Carr found out he became enraged. He put word out through the

grapevine that the work had better not be published as it stood.

Rosenthal [editor of the Chicago Review] was putting the final

editorial touches on the manuscript and preparing it for the

typesetter when he received a frantic telegram from Ginsberg. He had

to delete all references to Carr from the text. Especially the title.

"Lucien Midnight" became "Old Angel Midnight."

It is a wonderful article and I've copied it for a couple of people

already. It is titled "NAKED CENSORSHIP The True Story of the

University of Chicago and William S. Burroughs's NAKED LUNCH" and was

written by Gerald E. Brennan. If you are interested in a copy I would

be happy to send you one, just send me a private e-mail (I'm kinda

swamped at work so it might take a couple of weeks).

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:00:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Beat Culture & the New America

Received this review of the Whitney show. Since the show is on the road

I thought it might still be of some interest. wxgbc

And the Beats Go On.

Michael McLean

The new show at the Whitney Museum of American Art is a

close though cluttered look at the life and wild times of that

most American of movements, the Beat Generation.

The Beats are back with a vengeance these days. Long

neglected and ridiculed by the literati and the common folk as

a band of degenerates, hoodlums, drug addicts, sex maniacs and

half mad writers, the Beats now enjoy a renewed visibility

(tha nks in no small part to poet Allen Ginsberg's tireless

and not entirely selfless drumbeating).

Their poetry and prose are back on the shelves being

discovered by a new, sympathetic generation of readers.

Ginsberg is a respected professor at Brooklyn College and

records songs with alternative rock bands. Sales of Jack

Kerouac's books an d Kerouac memorabilia soar as tour groups

wend their way through the dismal streets of his hometown of

Lowell, Mass. And William Burroughs remains a largely

invisible though palpable presence, still producing books and

exhibiting wild paintings of shotgun blasts of color.

A new respectability, or is it merely a nostalgia, for

the Beats is in the air. The Beats are cool again. And the

Beats are back in town being celebrated at the Whitney.

Entitled Upbeat Culture and the New America 1950-1965,"

the show seems a jumbled panorama of Beat artifacts and

ephemeral. Manuscripts, letters, artwork, snapshots and

notebooks of all the major and some very minor Beat writers

are on display along with the paintings, sculpture and films

of contemporaneous artists who while not strictly Beat were

friends of, sympathetic with or influences upon them.

Inexplicably the show is organized not along thematic or

chronological lines, but geograp hically with sections devoted

to New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

In the New York section the major artifacts of the Beat

Generation are on view: the roll of Teletype paper, now

discolored and tattered, on which Kerouac typed his first

draft of "On the Road"; some graying pages torn from the

manuscript of Burroughs' notorious "Naked Lunch"; and pages

from the original draft of Ginsberg's "Howl."

Along with the writers' manuscripts is their artwork.

Especially poignant are Ginsberg's blown-up and hand-annotated

photos of himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, Gregory Corso and other

seminal Beat figures when they were young and on the verge of

giving voice to what Kerouac called "the unspeakable visions

of the individual." Of note also are Kerouac's small paintings

and drawings, mostly abstracts but including one heavy-handed

but heartfelt rendering of Budda, and Burroughs' newspaper

colla ges concentrating, of course, on the dark side -- all

murder, bombs and sundry disasters.

Much of the California art, as other reviewers have

observed, is disappointing and unmemorable and of a strangely

wearisome yellowed and brownish cast. There are few

exceptions.

Jess's cartoon collage books and more somber black and

white neosurrealist collages are intriguing. Another exception

is Jay De Feo's legendary The Rose, which she worked on for

eight years alternately applying countless layers of paint and

painstakingly scraping it off until The Rose reached a truly

monumental 11 feet in height and weight of over 2,000 pounds.

The Rose lends itself to a variety of interpretations.

Its sanded-smooth rays of soft grays emanate from the center

to the outer edges of the canvas where the paint remains

black, clumpy and unrefined. It is a flowering, of course, but

also s uggests perhaps the expansion of the artist's

sensibility or consciousness, or even the Big Bang itself.

Bruce Conner's assemblages made of grimy stretched nylon,

old cardboard, pieces of twine, wood and other junkyard

salvage are given prominent play in the exhibition. But except

for one or two amusing pieces, such as a street trash portrait

of Allen Ginsberg, they seem particularly dated as do Wally

Hedrick's clumsily erotic paintings.

It is only in the New York section that works of

considerable power and resonance appear. The artists' ties to

the Beats are tenuous at best although Larry Rivers did act in

the early Beat film, "Pull My Daisy," along with Ginsberg and

Corso (narration by Kerouac). Still their works are shown to

good advantage. Hung alongside the relics of the Beat writers,

they combine to re-create a gritty street scene of a fifties

New York when the visual and literary arts were in a state of

ferment a nd something genuinely new was about to erupt.

The Jackson Pollock is welcome relief after the

Californian smog -- a bright swath of his trademark swirls of

of color and light. Interestingly Kerouac credited Pollock's

raw expression of the subconscious through instinctive action

painting as an influence on the composition of his own

spontaneous bop prosody. Kline and de Kooning are also on view

as well as Rivers' nude-but-for-combat boots portrait of poet

Frank O'Hara and expressionistic bar menu.

Robert Rauschenberg's pieces still show considerable

power and seem as fresh and innovative as when they were -3-

created which cannot be said of most of the California works.

In contrast to Conner's assemblages, for example,

Rauschenberg's Satellite boasts a strong composition of

newspaper, fabric (including an old pair of blue socks), and

colorful splashes and drips of paint and still speaks with

authority. It is classic early Rauschenberg down to the

paint-besmeared pheasant that struts along a plank mounted to

the canvas top.

Even a relatively minor work such as Mother of God, a

mounted map with a gaping white hole at its center, still

disturbs and remains undiminished.

My advice on the Beat show is Kerouac's oft repeated

exhortation, "Go, man, go." But make only a quick swing

through San Fran and L.A. before spending most of your time

in New York.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:34:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Sketches of Kerouac

As I've been reading Kerouac's Visions of Cody I've become increasingly

interested in his technique of "sketching." Does anyone know how and when this

style originated? Was "October in the Railroad Earth" the first example of this

technique that Kerouac went on to use more frequently? Also, are there any

articles (aside from the ones that kerouac himself wrote) out there on this

technique and how it is used in his books?

just wondering,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:32:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: compuserve

I've been having problems with bounced beat-l mail from compuserve but

compservedoesn't identify the source of the delivery problem. I have 3

compuserve subscribers on the list. Will those of you on compuserve who

are receiving messages let me know so that I identify the one person who

isn't receiving messages. Please respond directly to me at

wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Thanks much. Sorry to takeup everyone's time

with such housekeeping chores.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:25:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Derek Alexander Beaulieu <dabeauli@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.ucalgary.ca>

In-Reply-To: <0007C575.fc@ridley.on.ca>

as far as i know it was Ed White who recommended the "sketching" technique

to JK. check out THE MISSOURI REVIEW XVII, #3 for the White Letters and

some comments on their interaction.

derek beaulieu

dabeauli@acs.ucalgary.ca

On Wed, 15 May 1996, J.D. P. Lafrance wrote:

> As I've been reading Kerouac's Visions of Cody I've become increasingly

> interested in his technique of "sketching." Does anyone know how and when this

> style originated? Was "October in the Railroad Earth" the first example of thi

> technique that Kerouac went on to use more frequently? Also, are there any

> articles (aside from the ones that kerouac himself wrote) out there on this

> technique and how it is used in his books?

> just wondering,

> JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 21:24:34 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: Sketches of Kerouac

Derek Alexander Beaulieu writes:

as far as i know it was Ed White who recommended the "sketching" technique

to JK. check out THE MISSOURI REVIEW XVII, #3 for the White Letters and

some comments on their interaction.

Yeah, I believe I've read about Ed White's influence somewheres (perhaps in