beat list 1996

Thank you,

Michael Czarnecki

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:48:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: WSB & TSE

Hey folks.

someone wrote:

>> Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series on his favourite cats!

Has anyone any more information about this, has it been broadcast yet?

And andrew Howald replied:

Now this is something. I've been more & more interested in WSB's affinities

with TSE lately. (T. S. Eliot, that is.) They have St. Louis & Harvard in

common.

And both specialized in a cut-up style, layering multiple voices. (Somewhere

I came

across a cut-up by Burroughs of The Waste Land--cut-up of a cut-up, all-out

puree.--

Does anyone know where I saw this?) Now I hear that WSB is doing some sort of

cat thing. Is it conscious emulation?

BTW, TSE reading the end of Book II of the Waste Land sounds just like our

birthday boy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Add to that: the collaboration of TSE and EP had a major impact, there was

some sort of synergy there, as there was with AG and Burroughs.

But still I don't think that it's conscious emulation.

Eliot spend a lot of time and effort on criticism, and our birthday boy

certainly has not. I've heard that Eliot kept the private life WAY in the

background, and, although Burroughs has sometimes been cited as attempting to

be private, el hombre invisible and all that, he's a huge public figure.

It's fun to think about, though.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:49:35 -0500

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From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Character references

Hello again.

I think that "just looking at the texts themselves" is a big mistake. You

have to learn everything you can about a work, at least all that's cogent,

and in K's case, you have to look outside the text as well, once you realize

that there's something out there worth looking at.

On the first reading of OTR, I was truly disappointed. I had read some

biographical materiel on JK, and I finished the book thinking "could this guy

invent ANYTHING?". i could see the invention of a major style, but that

wasn't enough for me.

Now that I look at it sort of like this

A <----------> some of JK's life experiences

B <----------> text of OTR.

The exploration of how he got from A to B is the key, I must believe.

All the complaining about the "Beats aren't getting their literary due" is

rapidly nearing a massive whine. If it's because certain people can't get

beyond the beatnik/ "hey, daddy-o" image, that's too bad, but it's not our

loss. It's theirs.

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:06:09 -0800

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From: Janet Hoelle <97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>

I WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR MAILING LIST. PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR LIST.

NICOLE HOELLE

97jhoell@ultrix.uor.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:56:59 -0500

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From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

For the major application of "automatic writing" see Gertrude Stein. She

wrote a thesis on it when she studied with James at Harvard. Her composition

methods described by Souhami seem to be a use of hypnogogic and hypnopompic

states of consciousness for her compositions, with Alice B. typing it up the

next day.

Dan Lauffer

<I'm with you in Rockland>

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:52:37 -0800

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From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>

Subject: Harold Carrington

I am trying to track down mss. and letters from the late poet Harold

Carrington, who died mostly unpublished in the early sixties -- Would be

much interested in hearing from anyone who knows location of any

Carrington papers --

Also looking for current address, if there is one, for Ray Bremser, who

was a friend of Carrington's --

Lastly, for now, trying to solve a puzzle. Ray Bremser published two

versions of a piece titled "Drive Suite." Several years later, a version

of the poem was published in Paul Breman's Heritage Series and attributed

to Carrington -- I suspect that somebody found a ms. of the poem among

Carrington's stuff and was confused, but it could also be that they

worked on it together -- Does anybody know anything about this??

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:13:49 EST

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From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

Comments: To: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Pull My Daisy: I don't believe there is anything published (if it

is the script of the film you're interested in), though the poem that

was written by Ginsberg/Kerouac of that same title and written in the

late forties has been published. The film, Pull My Daisy, was said to

be based on a three-act play Kerouac wrote called The Beat

Generation, the scenario of the movie being the third act.

Wake Up and Some of the Dharma are basically unpublished, though

the Buddhist mag Tricycle began (at least) to serialize Wake Up . I'd

read rumors that Some of the Dharma would be published at the end of

last year, but so far, no go.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:12:37 -0500

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From: Dave Quattro <quattro@DCSEQ.USCGA.EDU>

Subject: thoughts?

i'd like to see what a bunch of beatniks think of ayn rand... anyone,

anyone? i know she's no JK, but as beatniks, we're thinkers too, right?

here's some thoughts too.

ayn rand has backed herself up well. she says that people who deserve a

social contract are those who understand that it's exactly that. we all

rely on each other. if you're not participating in the production of

things, pretty much if you don't have a monster frigging work ethic, then

you're part of the destruction. ayn rand also feels very strongly on this:

too many people don't understand, don't care. too many people leave things

up to a question: "Who is John Galt?" too many people just say, "oh well -

it's something i can't understand, a catch 22. it can't be helped." she

hates that. ayn rand calls bullshit on society. she says that that

attitude is death. it is leachness, and it is evil. but you know what it

really is? cognative dissonance.

when you trust... you leave yourself open to the imperfections of others.

you WILL pay for their mistakes. (unavoidable? i don't know.)

i used to want to be a simple farmer - living off what i grow, making no

profit, keeping chickens and maybe some pigs/cows/horses... a simple life

in the country free of nuclear bombs and traffic jams. and if a nuclear

bomb or radon gas kills me, well i can melt or choke knowing that i had

absolutely nothing to do with it, and i'd be free.

BUT i have grown out of this, because i don't want to be the farmer who is

self sufficient and doing fine but oh! he has no teeth, because he refuses

to buy the toothbrush that's manufactured. when my cows all get

hemerhoids, i am not too proud to take them to the vet... when my child

becomes deathly ill, i'm not so proud that i will just let him/her die...

when there's a flood, i'm not too proud to borrow some seeds or grain from

my neighbor.

there are things on earth - natural things out of our control that do not

allow us to live a perfectly lonely life. life is unpredictable. it's

impossible to plan for everything (anything).

where's this guy going with this? i don't know - randomesque thoughts.

upon rereading, i see that i've got some incoherency and idea hopping, but

oh well.

so what's the solution? here's what i think: remember ayn's power... and

remebmer dave's farmer power too. it's up to all of us to decide what

solution is appropriate in what situation.

learn & teach

- D=AA=88=A1=8F Q=B5=C5=DDt=AE=9A

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:09:09 -0500

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From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

Thanks Rod W. for the quote from _Big Sur_ which apparently

is critical of Hesse's _Steppenwolf_. Earlier in Jan., Dan

Barth also quoted a part of that quote, but I missed the

"old fart....trying to be like Nietzsche...Dostoyevsky" part.

(Can I assume that this refers to Harry Haller, or do you

suppose JK is alluding to Hesse??-- If he means ol' Hesse,

this is a dandy quote, and somewhat accurate.)

I will have to have a closer look at _Big Sur_, as I am not familiar

with it, but that quote is very telling. I am, frankly, surprised

that _Steppenwolf_ would not appeal to JK. I am sure many

of you are familiar with this work, so I will spare you the

details, but it is essentially about an artist (outsider) in

search of himself. In his search, he discovers his sexuality

(and the notions of multiply partners, homosexuality and prostitution),

Dionysian music (in the 20's this was dance music-- forerunner

to jazz), murder and crime, and lastly drugs (the drug influence

in the novel has been questioned, but most critics agree that

drugs play at least a "minor" role). In a nutshell,

_Steppenwolf_ would seem to share many of the "Beat Generation

ideals", I think (I am no Beat expert, so correct me if I am

wrong!!)

Despite all of my ruminations and arguments, JK may have despised

Hesse's _Steppenwolf_ and perhaps saw nothing in it he even

remotely liked (which, in _Big Sur_, appears to be the case).

So......if _Steppenwolf_ did not influence JK (or any of the Beats),

then I guess I am wrong.

Not the first time!!

Any ideas..... ?

Trevor Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:31:52 -0500

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From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

I was wondering if anyone knew if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

Swami Muktananda Paramahansa before deciding that Chogyam Trungpa would be his

primary teacher. I read a little about him and Muktananda in "Dharma Lion"

and the bio by Barry Miles, but it is very short. Apparently Muktnanada made

quite an impression on him, according to a statements Ginsberg made in an

interview I read on the net. Any info about this association would be greatly

appreciated.

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:11:36 -0500

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From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: TSE-WSB

But waaaait a minute -- TSE & WSB were on real opposite sides of the fence.

I think perhaps the most major diff was that WSB always made it a point not

to be judgmental; Eliot, on the other hand, became the arbiter for at least a

decade of American Literature, and the stuff he was involved in publishing

(as editor at Faber & Faber) so closed down the local/vernacular/experimental

possibilities of American poetry that a generation of poets -- including many

beat influenced poets like Creeley, etc., found in Eliot the great villain of

a New American verse. See intro to Poetics of the New American Poetry, a

volume which includes Pound, WC Williams and Stein as forbears but

deliberately EXCLUDES TSE. Eliot would not have published (and was a major

influence on the publishing industry that resisted publishing) Jack, Bill,

Allen, etc. He WAS the canon (directly or indirectly) throughout the 40s &

50s. Yes he was an experimental, cut-up using, marginal poet in the late

teens and early twenties, BUT once given power he used it very ungenerously

and dogmatically.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

Pull My Daisy (text and pictures from the film) was published by Grove in

paperback in the early sixties or late 1950's. It is extremely rare and has

been out of print for decades. The only time I ever saw it the asking price

was something like $100.

If anyone ever sees it at a garage sale or used bookstore at a reasonable

price, buy it!

As for Kerouac's Buddhist writings, I would be surprised if they are not out

by the end of the year given the resurgence of interest in all things beat

these days.

Anyone know when the next volume of JK letters will be out?

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:33:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500 from <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:27:03 -0500 Howard Park said:

>Pull My Daisy (text and pictures from the film) was published by Grove in

>paperback in the early sixties or late 1950's. It is extremely rare and has

>been out of print for decades. The only time I ever saw it the asking price

>was something like $100.

>If anyone ever sees it at a garage sale or used bookstore at a reasonable

>price, buy it!

Howard scooped me. I was writing a similar response when my computer

hung up. When I got back, he'd passed along the appropriate information.

There was a copy of the book in the Whitney show, as well as the

transcription Alfred Leslie had made of the act of Kerouac's play

The Beat Generation, on which the film is based.

The gift shop at the Whitney also had copies of Pull My Daisy on VHS for

sale: "First Video Release," the package trumpets. It cost $40, and

the only indication of the source of the tape release is a note on the

back concerning the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston (phone 713 639 7531),

and its circulating collection of film and video by Robert Frank.

The print used for the video transfer, interestingly enough, is a

pre-release version, interestingly enough, which carries the original

title of the film, The Beat Generation, rather than Pull My Daisy.

This, I'm presuming, is the print Frank reportedly unearthed a few

years ago and placed in the Houston museum.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:11:23 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Saint Ayn

Comments: cc: quattro@dcseq.uscga.edu

Dave Quattro asks:

>i'd like to see what a bunch of beatniks think of ayn rand... >anyone,

anyone? i know she's no JK, but as beatniks, we're >thinkers too, right?

We're both running the risk of being flamed for topic deviance here, but I'll

take a stab at this:

In that Ayn Rand was an iconoclast, who often went against the grain and was

spurned by the academic establishment as a consequence, a thinker who

challenged "collective reality" and championed the individual, I can see a

connection with the gestalt of the Beats. However, the comparison can't be

carried much further, I think. Rand was extremely intolerant of ambiguities,

be those aesthetic or moral. (Her credo, borrowed from Aristotle, can be

summed up as: " A is A".) And she utterly detested mysticism. So, I doubt

that she would ever have sought out the Beats (indeed, I seem to recall that

she made some rather disparaging remarks about Beat culture), and had she

found herself in a room with Kerouac, Ginsberg, or Burroughs (let alone Neal

Cassady), I think she would have left in very short order, her cigarette

holder held high.

Interesting question, though. As an aside, I'd have to add that a number of

post-Beat '60s rebels ended up reading Ayn Rand and digging what she had to

say, myself included. And there are distinctly libertarian threads in both

the philosophy of Rand and the yearnings of the Beats. Rand has had the

misfortune, I think, to have been much maligned by the left, with the result

that many otherwise open-minded people have developed a knee-jerk antipathy

to the mention of her name. More's the pity.

On the other hand I don't recall ever reading anything by Hermann Hesse.

Luther Jett, preparing now to duck and cover . . .

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:32:25 -0500

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Happy B'Day

Happy 82nd Berfday WSB wherever you are!

I wrote to the Bradford exchange trying to persuade them to do a

commemorative plate for his 80th, but they never responded. Strangely enough

I suggested a vision of Burroughs with the American flag flying behind him --

which was the exact image that I later saw in the Burroughs video --

Commisioner of Sewers (right title?) -- very strange.

I assume the people who keep asking about Burroughs and his cats are aware of

his cat book -- if not, it's out there and it is serious -- I have dogs and

birds so we wouldn't get along on that topic -- although I have to admit to

also being fond of cats.

Perry

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:44:00 -0700

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James M Spear <jspear@COUGARNET.BYU.EDU>

Subject: plese remove

would the responsible party remove me from this list thanx

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:48:34 -0500

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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Saint Ayn

On Feb 05, 1996 21:11:23, '"W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>Rand has had the

>misfortune, I think, to have been much maligned by the left, with the

result

>that many otherwise open-minded people have developed a knee-jerk

antipathy

>to the mention of her name. More's the pity.

I, too, read a lot of Ayn Rand (much more of the beats) and at probably too

young an age. I do know that her book "Anthem" was a cause celebre of the

right (wm f. buckley in particular) in the 60's and her killer capitalist

ideas in "fountainhead" and Atlas shrugged" were maligned by what was then

called the left. She seems almost antithetical to what a lot of the beats

were saying and doing then, although I'm sure Jerry Rubin later followed

some of her precepts. And that was really pitiful!

Mark Johnson

smark@nyc.pipeline.com

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:08:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Buddhism v Catholicism

I read an interesting article by the Dalai Lama regarding the similarities

of Buddhism and Christianity. A few examples of places where he found

similarities: In Buddhism, there is a belief that every living person posses

the seed of Buddha-nature, and in Christianity, there is the idea that all

people are created in God's likeness. His Holiness found the greatest

similarities between Buddhist and Christian monks however, specifically that

both Christian & Buddhist monks practice a way of life which involve

commitment, simplicity & modesty. He also compares the vows taken by

Christian monks to such Buddhist principles as Pratimiksha Sutra.

This article can be found in the may 1995 edition of "Shambhala Sun," where

there is also an article by Father Robert Kennedy about the areas where

Catholicism and Buddhism can find common ground. (Kenney is a Jesuit preist

and zen teacher - a good person to read if you're interested in further

exploring the connection between Buddhism & Catholicism).

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 03:27:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: TSE-WSB

>But waaaait a minute -- TSE & WSB were on real opposite sides of the fence.

>I think perhaps the most major diff was that WSB always made it a point not

>to be judgmental; Eliot, on the other hand, became the arbiter for at least a

>decade of American Literature, and the stuff he was involved in publishing

>(as editor at Faber & Faber) so closed down the local/vernacular/experimental

>possibilities of American poetry that a generation of poets -- including many

>beat influenced poets like Creeley, etc., found in Eliot the great villain of

>a New American verse. See intro to Poetics of the New American Poetry, a

>volume which includes Pound, WC Williams and Stein as forbears but

>deliberately EXCLUDES TSE. Eliot would not have published (and was a major

>influence on the publishing industry that resisted publishing) Jack, Bill,

>Allen, etc. He WAS the canon (directly or indirectly) throughout the 40s &

>50s. Yes he was an experimental, cut-up using, marginal poet in the late

>teens and early twenties, BUT once given power he used it very ungenerously

>and dogmatically.

>Ted Pelton

Ted, I certainly get your drift here and mostly agree. For one thing, as

has

already been pointed out by William Miller, WSB has always eschewed literary

criticism (thank god that's been true of most of the beats!) whereas TSE

couldn't stop pontificating. Still I see resemblances however. Isn't Bull Lee

in OTR a little like the pontifical Possum? And where is it that Burroughs

quotes, without irony, the Eliot line "After such knowledge, what forgiveness"?

(Apologies for being without texts.) And WHERE is that damn cut-up he did of

the Waste Land?

I don't know if WSB and TSE were "on real opposite sides of the fence"

but they were certainly a generation apart. WSB was eight when the

Waste Land appeared. I myself find it impossible to imagine Naked Lunch

as we know it without the Waste Land, and this is not just for technical

reasons

(though the similarites in technique are strong). It is more for a certain

sense

of the grotesquely comic that the two works share.

I admit these are just impressions. I mean to delve further. Before I go

let me add that Gary Snyder has called TSE's Four Quartets a major work.

Yours,

Andrew

"These men, and those who opposed them

And those whom they opposed

Accept the constitution of silence

And are folded in a single party."

--Little Gidding

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:37:31 -0500

Reply-To: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@BOSSHOG.ARTS.UWO.CA>

Subject: Re: Buddhism v Catholicism

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.uwo.ca>

In-Reply-To: <960206010858_415632725@emout07.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Liz Prato wrote:

> I read an interesting article by the Dalai Lama regarding the similarities

> of Buddhism and Christianity. A few examples of places where he found

> similarities: In Buddhism, there is a belief that every living person posses

> the seed of Buddha-nature, and in Christianity, there is the idea that all

> people are created in God's likeness. His Holiness found the greatest

> similarities between Buddhist and Christian monks however, specifically that

> both Christian & Buddhist monks practice a way of life which involve

> commitment, simplicity & modesty. He also compares the vows taken by

> Christian monks to such Buddhist principles as Pratimiksha Sutra.

> This article can be found in the may 1995 edition of "Shambhala Sun," where

> there is also an article by Father Robert Kennedy about the areas where

> Catholicism and Buddhism can find common ground. (Kenney is a Jesuit preist

> and zen teacher - a good person to read if you're interested in further

> exploring the connection between Buddhism & Catholicism).

> Liz

Thomas Merton's _Thoughts on the East_ (New directions 1995), a

collection of earlier essays, is also a good way to enter into

catholic/buddhist dialogue. Merton writes on his meeting with the Dalai

Lama: "It was a very warm and cordial discussion and at the end I felt

we had become very good friends and were somehow quite close to one

another. I felt a great respect and fondness for him as a person and

believe, too, that there is a real spiritual bond between us. He

remarked that I was a "Catholic geshe," which, Harold said, was the

highest psooble praise from a Gelugpa, like an honorary doctorate!"

-Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:52:28 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Cheever on Kerouac

Not to belabor the obvious, but the characters who inhabit John

Cheever's fiction couldn't be any further from the spirits of those

Kerouac sketched in his work. But I found it interesting, in this 1958

entry from John Cheever's Journals, this commentary, based obviously

on THE SUBTERRANEANS, but pretending to encompass and understand all

of what Kerouac was about in his writing. There's no mention that

he's read OTR or DHARMA BUMS, which would've been published by the

time SUBTERRANEANS came out, but he certainly has a sort of extra-

literary ax to grind (as, it seemed, so many folks did at the time),

appearing not to attack the work so much as its author and/or his

lifestyle:

"My first feelings about the Kerouac book were: that it was not

good; that most of its accents or effects were derived from some of

the real explorers, like Saul; and that the apocalyptic imagery was

not good enough-- was never lighted by true talent, or deep feeling,

vision. It pleased me to catch him at a disadvantage, to sum up the

facts, which could reflect on my lack of innocence. Here is a man of

thirty who lives with his hard-working mother, cooks supper for her

when she gets home from the store, has a shabby affair with a poor

Negress-- who knows so little about herself that she is easy prey--

wrestles, very suspiciously, with his pals, weeps in a train yard

where his mother's image appears to him, discovers that he is

deceived, and writes a book. The style has the advantages, to make a

rough comparison, of abstract painting. When we give up lucidity we

have, from time to time, the power of broader associations. Life is

chaotic, and so we can state this in chaotic terms. In trying to

catch him at a disadvantage, I find him vulgar, meaning perhaps

unsophisticated-- his sexual identity, his prowess, is not much. He

is a writer and wants to be a famous writer, a rich writer, and a

successful writer, but the question of excellence never seems to

cross his mind. The question of the greatest depth of feeling,

of speaking with the greatest urgency. My life is very different from

what he describes. There is almost no point where our emotions and

affirs correspond. I am most deeply and continuously involved in the

love of my wife and my children. It is my passion to present to my

children the opportunity of life. That this, this passion, has not

reformed my nature is well known. But there is some wonderful

seriousness to the business of living, and one is not exempted by

being a poet. You have to take some precautions with your health. You

have to manage your money intelligently and respect your emotional

obligations. There is another world--I see this--there is chaos, and

we are suspended above it by a thread. But the thread holds. People

who seek, who are driven to seek, love in urinals, do not deserve the

best of our attention. They will be forgiven, and anyhow, sometimes

they are not seeking love; they are seeking a means to express their

hatred and suspicion of the world. Sometimes."

The first reference, to what Cheever sees as derivative similarities

between Kerouac, and... does he mean Saul Bellow? Can anyone make

sense of this?

But primarily, I find it interesting that, in a sense, Cheever WANTS

to like the man, he wants to like the work, but there is something he

finds "uncomfortable" in K's writing, something that unsettles him,

and he weaves in and out of relevent attacks, now chastising him as

would an elder writer a younger one (he was only 10 years older

than K, though a century away from K in attitude), then practically

accusing him of writing from a very base, almost smutty and

irresponsible point of view (exposing Cheever's puritanism, his

priggishness, not his literary critical acumen), but coming back, it

seems to a very vague interest in K, but as what? We're not sure.

(Kerouac's sudden rocket to fame might have something to do with

this, in that Cheever achieved a steady though slower rise to reknown

as a writer; jealously, I guess, can't be ruled out.) I think it shows

Cheever's confusion when it comes to his comprehension of what is

acceptable or what constitutes, to him, an unacceptable lifestyle.

Cheever exhibited as much contradiction and confusion in his personal

life, if not in his writing, something he seems to be attacking K for

in this entry. What I will say in Cheever's favor, though, is that he

seems to be trying to write his way into making some sense of what is

to him, essentially, something new, something unusual (not flippantly

writing K off as, say, Capote did), though his prejudices carry him

much of that way to a very strange and, I think, unresolved

conclusion.

Anyone have any other take on this?

Clay

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:14:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day

Thanks to Perry Lindstrom for the happy birthday greetings to William.

Basically, he's the only reason I'm on this list, which apparently gets

mainly Kerouac action (that's the fault of us Burroughs people, I know)

I'll just salute the old man again for giving us writing well into his

seventies.

Thanks, Mr. Burroughs.

William Miller

PS The passage in _The Cat Inside_ in which the schoolmaster at Los Alamos

kills the badger (or some small mammal) is simply perfect Burroughs.

Profoundly sad situation. Described, the old man makes it seem hilarious.

Folks, read it if you haven't.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:20:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Thanks to Perry Lindstrom for the happy birthday greetings to William.

Basically, he's the only reason I'm on this list, which apparently gets

mainly Kerouac action (that's the fault of us Burroughs people, I know)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I think Perry's comments are perceptive but don't know if I'd

go that far.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:29:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

I agree with all you said, Clay... but what crossed my mind while reading

your post was "I wonder what Jack thought of Cheever?"

Had Jack been of the type to type out a review, say, of some of Cheever's

early stuff... what would he have said?

I think that there was a significant want in Jack's later self to become

like those Wapshot bigshots, taking-in the late morning poolside glass of

gin... smug, satisfied, and beholding to their secrets.

Not much is known of Jack's days in Northport... and article/interview here

and there. I wonder how close Jack came to the pool in those days?

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:55:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <v01510102ad3d084bde7b@[198.110.207.218]>

Check out Cheever's "Falconer" written in 1977, a tale of alcoholism,

self-hatred, repressed homosexuality and madness. It is a lot closer to

Kerouac's "Big Sur" than any of the Wapshot type tales. It is also closer

to Cheever the human being, according to Susan Cheever, than the image of the

buttoned-down suburbanite more commonly known to the reading public.

Cheever was no Updike, the country club stuff was just a facade.

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:55:41 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

It does seem that Kerouac would have responded more favorably to the old

Steppenwolf. (By the way I just came across a reference in William Burrough's

book *Exterminator*, to "Audrey Carson's first literary exercise,

'Autobiography of a Wolf.'" I think young Burroughs really did write a piece

with that title.) Anyway . . . a few thoughts on Kerouac's reaction. 1) He

was an alcoholic experiencing severe mood swings (to put it mildly) so I

mistrust his reaction to the book; the next day he may have loved it. 2) I

wonder if he really read the entire book. 3) Later in *Big Sur* he talks

about "the magic game of glad freedom," cf. Magic Theatre, so maybe Hesse

influenced him more than he knew.

I don't agree that Haller or Hesse were uninteresting old farts; they were

very interesting old farts in my opinion. I see many similarities in Hesse

and Kerouac, two of my favorite writers, but no direct influence of Hesse on

Kerouac, just indirect influence and common influences such as Dostoevsky,

Nietzsche, Spengler and Bach.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:52:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: mai kuha <mkuha@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Your help needed

Fellow netters,

I'm a graduate student in Linguistics and I'm writing to ask for your

help. I am interested in how people carry out conversations (a

surprisingly complex task!). Currently, I'm researching how people

interpret what their conversational partners say.

The reason I'm contacting you is that I need data from speakers from a

variety of dialect areas. Would you be willing to respond to a

questionnaire over e-mail? If you are, please send me a note at

mkuha@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

and I'll e-mail the questionnaire to you.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Mai Kuha

Indiana University, Bloomington

e-mail: mkuha@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:57:08 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: Re: missing texts

i remember talking to someone in a bar two years ago about JK and he mentioned

pull my daisy. He seemed to know alot about its making and also said he had a

copy of the film on video. i don't know how reliable his info was but i can

contact him again. is this any use? voshea@dit.ie

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:43:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: beat writers, current status

I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

If so, where are they living and what are they up to? I gather from the

posts of the past few days that Burroughs is still alive.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Andra

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Well, the wind keeps a-blowin' me

Up and down the street Andra Greenberg

With my hat in my hand Duke University

And my boots on my feet asg5@acpub.duke.edu

Watch out so you don't step on me

"Bob Dylan's Blues"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:10:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

My apologies: I hope the Hesse/Beat tangent is relevent here

and interesting.

Dan Barth's last post sheds a new light on the Hesse reception

in JK-- perhaps JK was truly more "influenced" by Hesse than

he thought. Given the circumstances around the time of

_Big Sur_ (as Dan points out), one must really question the

truth of JK's statements. We must also consider the authorial

perspective, which leads me to a question: are the words

in _Big Sur_ uttered by JK himself, or does there exist

the possibility of a (fictional?) narrator?? We must (in any

work of art) consider the degree of authorial influence--

often this approximates 100%, other times 0%. This was a

topic of recent list debate. But I digress.

Dan (or anyone else who might know), could you give me more

info. regarding this "Autobiography of a Wolf" (?) by Burroughs.

I, too, agree with Dan that neither Hesse nor Haller were

unnteresting old farts. They were certainly not uninteresting,

but I do think it could be argued that they were old farts, who

were able to put their respective "old-fartedness" behind them

(no pun intended) and transcend to higher levels of being.

Was this also not also a goal of many of the Beats??

Cheers,

Trevor Smith

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:16:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Your help needed

>The reason I'm contacting you is that I need data from >speakers from a

variety of dialect areas. Would you be >willing to respond to a

questionnaire over e-mail?

Sure.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:17:56 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Janet Hoelle <97jhoell@ULTRIX.UOR.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and _Big Sur_

In-Reply-To: <01I0UU38IOVM8X9NLJ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

DEAR TREVOR,

IF you are interested in discovering what the Beat ideals were, you

should read GOOD BLONDE AND OTHERS by Jack Kerouac. I think the essays in

this compilation of works, reveal

what the essence of the Beat movement was. Also, if you want something on

Kerouac, the Ann Charters biography entitled Kerouac is the best I've

found yet.

NICOLE HOELLE

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:16:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Happy B'Day

On Feb 06, 1996 11:14:13, 'William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>I'll just salute the old man again for giving us writing well into his

>seventies.

>Thanks, Mr. Burroughs.

>William Miller

I met and interviewed ol' Bull Lee in the late 70's in his loft on Bowery

and Prince. I'm sure he still looks and sounds about the same. I'll never

forget him.

Mark Johnson

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:16:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Cheever on Kerouac

On Feb 06, 1996 13:55:24, 'Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>' wrote:

>Cheever was no Updike, the country club stuff was just a facade.

>Louis Proyect

For a more complete picture, read "Journals" by John Cheever. They are

completely autobiographical and shattered quite a few illusions. I don't

think they lessen his stature as a writer, but they give great insight into

the alcoholism, the bi-sexuality, etc.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:24:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "DOUGLAS W. WACKER" <dwacker@IN.NET>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts

>Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

>by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

>books I'm after.

> Pull my daisy

> Wake up

> Some of the dharma

> Thanks.

> Tim.

You know, I'm not sure about this, but not long ago I saw a book called 'Big

Sky Mind

- Buddhism and the Beat Generation' and I think segments of 'Some of the

Dharma' were printed in there. I may be wrong because I was broke and

couldn't buy the book so I

just skimmed it. It might of just had sections of 'Scripture of the Golden

Eternity' (avail. through City Lights Publishing) in it. Hope I could

help.... Doug.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:32:15 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Holstad <sch@WELL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status

In-Reply-To: <199602062043.PAA20964@jeter.acpub.duke.edu>

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Andra wrote:

> I hope I don't sound too naive, but are Kerouac and Ginsberg still alive?

Kerouac died in 1969. Ginsberg is alive and living in NYC.

> If so, where are they living and what are they up to?

I belive Ginsberg teaches at CUNY (at least at Brooklyn College), as well

as Naropa occasionally. Also tours/lectures, etc.

I gather from the

> posts of the past few days that Burroughs is still alive.

> Thanks in advance for any information.

> Andra

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> Well, the wind keeps a-blowin' me

> Up and down the street Andra Greenberg

> With my hat in my hand Duke University

> And my boots on my feet asg5@acpub.duke.edu

> Watch out so you don't step on me

> "Bob Dylan's Blues"

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 03:14:30 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph McNicholas <mcnichol@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Sarah Schulman

In Sarah Schulman's Girls Visions and Everything (Seal Press, 1986),

Kerouac's OTR is used as a reminder throughout of (among other things) the

tension between commitment to individuals and freedom, of the tension

between "stability and stagnation." One way she works out this tension is

to point out that the lesbian community could use the kind of self-generated

popular press that the Beats gave themselves. She says (p 59-60) "Guys like

Jack, William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg, some of them were smart and had

some good ideas and wrote some lasting and inspiring work. Mostly, though,

they weren't all the geniuses their reputations implied. The thing was,

they made a phenomenon of themselves. They made themselves into the

fashion, each quoting from the other, building an image based not so much on

their work as on the idea that they lead interesting lives. . . .that is

exactly what lesbians needed to do."

Often, this exact point is used as a criticism of the Beats. Yet Schulman,

who actually went on to do just that for lesbians through the Lesbian

Avengers, which started in 1992 as a political action/media blitz, used it

to try to affect real social change of consciousness. Although I am sure

that Schulman's feelings about the Beats is pretty mixed, I was excited to

see them fit into a continuing and very lively tradition of social and

artistic endeavor. I was wondering what the list might think, and if anyone

has more info about other groups who have found some modicum of inspiration

in the Beats, or more on Schulman, herself. I was also wondering if there

were lesbian beat writers who I may be unaware of.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Joseph McNicholas

mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu

_______________________________________________________________________________

Joseph McNicholas

mcnichol@mail.utexas.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:27:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Bob Donlin died

Founder of the legendary Cambridge, MA folk venue, Passim, and friend

of Jack Kerouac, who appeared in Jack's books under the name Bob

Donnelly, died on Monday, 5 Feb 1996, at the age of 72. Today's Boston

Globe has a memorial to him in the Living Arts section.

Mark Fisher

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:51:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Sarah Schulman

>I was also wondering if there

>were lesbian beat writers who I may be unaware of.

One you may be interested in is Eileen Myles. Check out Black Sparrow Press

Catalogs for "Maxwell Parish" and "Chelsea Girls".

i.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:01:45 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Jacobs <RJACOBS@THYME.UVM.EDU>

Organization: University of Vermont

Subject: Neal -- Happy Birthday

Neal Cassady February 8, 1926

An Aquarian, he embodied its characteristics: mentally brilliant,

dynamic, intense, and full of an explosive, electric-type energy that

shatters the old forms in order to make way for the new. At the same

time he represented a humane, non-judegemental benevolence that seeks

the brotherhood of man and promotes brotherly love; that gives

everyone the rgith to experience the "garden of earthly delights."