beat list december 1995

postmodern narrative is reliant on a completely subjective text--something

I just don't see in Beat Literature. As an example of writers that I would

call pstmodern, check out John Barth, Robert Coover, Vladamir Nabokov, and a

host of others. The list of names that Critter dropped would be a good place o

to start to get a handle on some of the theoretical models that shape the

poststructuaralist movement. Be wary however, of any attempt to define these

terms with absolutes: Derrida's "Structure, Sign, and Play in the Discourse

of the Human Sciences," (1966) is the essay/lecture that "started" the

American Post Structuralist movement, and it presents the "Deconstructionist" m

model with which we are all familliar. This model, however, is widely

different than the adaptations made to it by Roland Barthes, and it was

further changed by the Yale "Gang of Four," who can be credited with

popularizing post-structuralism in America. Simmilarly, the ideas developed by

Foucault, a follower of Nietzschian philosophy, further confuses the

possibility of a strict definition of these terms. Add to these writers the

works of Kristeva, De Man, Said, and the entire New Historical movement, and

we can begin to understand exactly why defining these terms in absolutes

becomes an impossible task.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:37:04 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To: <628FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

I think I would call that strength.

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:49:22 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!

In-Reply-To: <688FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

Rita

What do you believe goes through ones mind when we are in our mothers

womb? Remember, that there is a certain month during the pregnancy that

one does begin hearing. But what is it that the fetus hears?? Muffled

sounds. So, that is another reason why I believe that we are born as a

blank slate.

I also believe that we have no scientific proof of chance. BUT, my

theory is that in SOME situations there is chance and in others there is

not.

As for the example of the mentally disturbed people who hurt and kill

people. Do we know that it was chance that just happened to make them a

lunatic at that very point in time or is it that they were aware of what

was happening to themselves. That is what many of our court systems are

trying to prove. For instance, was it just chance that Jeffrey Dahmer

had some chemical reaction in his brain which he could not control that

forced him to kill several people OR was it that he was fully aware of

what was going on. OR maybe it was neither of these but something that

was brought out of his subconscious when he saw a certain person taht

made him do it. We will never know.

Therefore CHANCE is just MY THEORY

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:56:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

In-Reply-To: <6C8FC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

LUTHER

Well what I am saying is that this is my own personal theory of Chance.

I am not looking at statistics.

We can probably predict weather from patterns that we have seen over the

past how many million years the Earth has been here. Through temperature

change different atmospheric conditions and so forth we can predict the

weather. I really don't believe that that is chance BUT it may be. That

last statement is what I have learned.

As for writing poetry and other sorts of literary and artistic mediums I

believe that we can't predict what isgoing to come out on the paper BUT I

do believe that somewhere in our subconscious ideas, experiences and

memories are coming forth. We just aren't aware that it is happening.

BUT that is MY theory. You don't have to believe this and I am not

trying to persuade anyone to believe it.

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:42:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: You can't win

Greetings,

This is my first posting to this list. My name is William Miller. I am

interested in the writings of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, as well as

other beats, but my primary interest is with William Seward Burroughs II.

I read _Literary Outlaw_ about a year ago, and I still am reading books that

I was "introduced" to for the first time there, both books by Burroughs

himself and books written by others. I would like to know if any of you know

this: where, if anywhere, paper or computer version, could I find a copy of

Jack Black's _You Can't Win_, the book which formed such an impression on WSB

in his youth?

If you have an answer on the whereabouts of _You Can't Win_, please let me

know via e-mail or a general posting.

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

With respect,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:01:31 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win

>Greetings,

>This is my first posting to this list. My name is William Miller. I am

>interested in the writings of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Burroughs, as well as

>other beats, but my primary interest is with William Seward Burroughs II.

>I read _Literary Outlaw_ about a year ago, and I still am reading books that

>I was "introduced" to for the first time there, both books by Burroughs

>himself and books written by others. I would like to know if any of you know

>this: where, if anywhere, paper or computer version, could I find a copy of

>Jack Black's _You Can't Win_, the book which formed such an impression on WSB

>in his youth?

>If you have an answer on the whereabouts of _You Can't Win_, please let me

>know via e-mail or a general posting.

>I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

>writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

>With respect,

>William Miller

You Can't Win was released a few years ago with an introduction by

Burroughs. Sorry I don't remember the publisher. So it should be

available somewhere. And since it is so old a public domain e-text should

not violate any copyright laws. Whether or not it is available as an

e-text I don't know.

And for some reason discussion of the actual fiction of beat writers is

scarce around here. I don't know why.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:01:19 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Sorry, but we tend to discuss more important things, like the names of the Beat

Writers pets. hehe

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:13:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rarely are the actual texts mentioned - we prefer to spend our time here

discussing more important things like who's Mom looks more like

Kerouac's cat.

The actual things they wrote don't really matter so much around here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:16:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!! (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

I also believe that we have no scientific proof of chance. BUT, my

theory is that in SOME situations there is chance and in others there is

not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as to not flame anyone, I'll blame this on my casual reading of the

postings this past week - I can't seem to recall what this discussion

of chance has to do with the Beat Generation. How did we get onto

this thread?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:24:55 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: New book.

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:22:08 -0500 from <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Can you tell us who's publishing the Amburn biography?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:30:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: digest

Several people have asked recently if it is possible to get Beat-l in

digest form. It is. To receive Beat-l as a digest, send the message

set beat-l digest to Listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Do NOT send the message

to the list!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:35:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Satori in Paris

I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:52:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kerouac on chance/destiny

Depending on one's bent, I either chanced upon or else subconciously

remembered reading years ago and therefore have been groping all week in the

most roundabout way toward this passage in Kerouac's _book of dreams_ (p 8):

...alone in eternity - to which I now go, on white horse, not knowing what's

going to happen, predestined or not, if predestined why bother, if not why

try, not if try why, but try if why not, or not why -- At the present time I

have nothing to say and refuse to go on without further knowledge.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:56:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Computers

>I came upon an ad for a new computer game being sold at JR >Records: "The

Dark Eye: Role playing adventure game based on >3 Edgar Allan Poe stories

narrated by William S. Burroughs. A >haunting nightmare world of murder &

malevolence. For >Windows & Macintosh. $39.95." A nice xmas present for

>Burroughsians.

I guess that answers the question someone raised recently about whether or

not Burroughs is into computers.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:25:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: New Book-- publisher

St. Martins Press is the publisher of "The Beat OF Life" that should be out

for the Fall of 96. In Oct this year Ellis Amburn came out with the book

"Buddy Holly". He has done "The Pearl" the biography of Janis Joplin, "The

Dark Star" the biography of Roy Orbison and others. At the Kerouac fest in

Oct. I attended a reading of Sebastion Sampasas poetry and letters at the

University of Lowell. Does anyone know if this was taped or if any of his

work has been published? As his closest friend he was a great influence on

Jack and was a GREAT writer himself. Please let us know if anyone finds out

anything.

Philzi Lowell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

At 06:35 PM 12/5/95 -0500, you wrote:

>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

Jack forgot. But he remembered having one.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:40:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: New Book re publisher

St. Martins Press is the publisher of "The Beat of Life" that should be

out for the

fall of 96. In October this year Ellis Amburn came out with the book "Buddy

Holly".

He has done "The Pearl" the biography of Janis Joplin, "The Dark Star" the

biography of

Roy Orbison and others. At the Kerouac fest in October I attended a reading of

Sebastian Sampas' poetry and letters at the University of Lowell. Does

anyone know if

this was taped or if any of his work has been published? As his closest

friend he was a great influence on Jack and was a GREAT writer himself.

Please let us know if anyone

finds out anything. Philzi-Lowell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:20:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

On 12/5/95 7:54PM EST, JHulvey@AOL.COM wrote:

>Depending on one's bent, I either chanced upon or else subconciously

remembered reading years ago and therefore have been groping all week in the

most roundabout way toward this passage in Kerouac's _book of dreams_ (p 8):

...alone in eternity - to which I now go, on white horse, not knowing what's

going to happen, predestined or not, if predestined why bother, if not why

try, not if try why, but try if why not, or not why -- At the present time I

have nothing to say and refuse to go on without further knowledge.

BEN (Undertoad2) replies and asks:

I have only been into Kerouac/Beat writers less than 2 years and have not yet

read "Book of Dreams".

But when I read the above quote, I started thinking about the "white horse"

reference.......

Since JK was a devout Catholic (at least during his "Lowell" years) I imagine

JK would have been familiar with the the "white horse" references in the Book

of Revelation.

I won't quote it all chapter and verse, but one reference is in Rev. 6:2

where the rider "went out to conquer." The second reference is in Rev.

19:11-16, where the rider is called faithful and true (and many scholars

think refers to Christ).

Does this suggest to others (as it seems possibly to me) that JK may have, at

least subconciously, have thought himself some sort of "Messianic figure"?

Or, since I have a limited knowledge of JK and his writings, are there other

references that may better explain his dream of being on a "white horse"? I

realize the reference (cited) in Book of Dreams doesn't seem to support

either the idea of someone "conquering", or being a "messianic figure" , butI

find the white horse reference a little hard to ignore and not to query.....

Comments please!

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:28:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Greeting William,

I cannot answer your query (sorry) but since I, also, am a fairly recent to

the whole Beat thing (Kerouac was my "door"), wanted to say hi.

I'm just curious, but are you at all related to the "William Miller" who

started the "Millerite/ Millenial Movement" back in the mid-1850s?...Its a

stretch, but worth the question.

Please note my (recent) posting on the reference to JK's "Book of Dreams"

Hope you win! (G)

Best,

Ben

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:38:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bernard Moore <UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: digest?

WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Bill Gargan) writes:

>Several people have asked recently if it is possible to get Beat-l in

digest form. It is. To receive Beat-l as a digest, send the message

set beat-l digest to Listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Do NOT send the message

to the list!

Ben (Undertoad2) asks:

What exactly does "digest" mean? What does it include/exclude?

I think it would be helpful to avoid all the postings (including this one!)

that do not directly relate to the topic of the beats?

Thanks!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:27:33 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd) (fwd)

In response to these questions---Yes! I couldn't agree more. I would much

prefer to see this list devoted to an axtual textual discussion of

literature, and less to the fan club/trade 'zine/pet discussions that it

has become! Now...to avoid being flamed for proposing theory without

praxis: I am proposing a topic of discussion that actually relates to the

literature...

One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference. Consider, for

example, Gary Snyder's poetry which is clearly political, but in such a

markedly different way than Robert Lowel's. Both of them, of course, were

affected by the political upheavals during their lifetime, but their reactions

in terms of their art are so different. ("Earth House Hold vs. "For the Union

Dead" for example...) I would be interested in hearing some responses to this,

particularly by someone who knows a bit more about the context of the "poetry

wars" ongoing during this period...Any takers?

Chris Davis

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I would relish a discussion of the actual fiction, the TEXTS, of these

writers. Does that indeed happen here, at BEAT-L ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rarely are the actual texts mentioned - we prefer to spend our time here

discussing more important things like who's Mom looks more like

Kerouac's cat.

The actual things they wrote don't really matter so much around here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:11:52 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951205.204639.EST.CSD95001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Chris Davis wrote:

> One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

> revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

> I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

> poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference.

What the... I'll chime in. "I saw the best minds of my generation,

destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked..." I think the

beats-- and maybe the "beat poets" most specifically, were extremely

referential to their culture-- is there anything not cultural in their work?

I recognize you might mean something specific by, well, the word

"specific"-- are you thinking about how they incorporate disperate

cutlures into their work-- western, eastern thinking, for instance? But

still, weren't all the combinations meant as response to the nasty days

of the 1950s? (I'm so looking forward to returning to those days if the

GOP wins the pres. election, esp. Gramm.)

Perhaps I'm not sticking to the texts enough... but if there isn't

cultural reference, what are they revolting against? Even the literary

forms are cultural icons-- Eliot, Pound, etc. And, I think for Ginsberg

at least, his revolutionary forms are pretty easily found-- perhaps they

remain "revolutionary," but not original-- chanting, to an extent, but,

as he comes close to admitting by action, Blake definitely. Now there is

a poet who is revolutionary both with and without cultural reference...

able to include all at the same time.

The beats at their best-- I think in WSB's works-- are both culturally

referential and something else, something new, as well...

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:22:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Blaine Allan <ALLANB@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

Subject: Re: You can't win

Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:42:32 -0500 from <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

The recent edition of You Can't Win: The Autobiography of Jack Black,

with foreword by Wm. S. Burroughs, was published in 1988 by Amok

Press (P.O. Box 51, Cooper Station, New York NY 10276). Whether it's

still in print, I don't know.

Blaine Allan ALLANB@QUCDN.QueensU.CA

Film Studies

Queen's University

Kingston, Ontario

Canada K7L 3N6

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:37:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: Postmodern Poetry

People interested in postmodern poetry should not miss

"Postmodern American Poetry," a Norton Anthology edited by Paul

Hoover. All the Beats are included as are Black Mountain, NY

School and many others including the Language School. Charles

Olson is considered the father of postmodern poetry -- or at

least the first person to use the term, but I find his work to be

more neo-classical than postmodern. For my money, Frank O'Hara

was more the postmodernist than Olson, but strangely enough his

more postmodern poems (such as Second Avenue) are not included in

the anthology. I wrote an article last year for a friend's zine

entitled, "Who Drove the Post Through Modern Poetry," that I still

think I have it on disk if anyone is interested I could send it via

E-Mail. I'm of mixed opinion as to the Beats' postmodernity --

see them more as neo-romantic. but it's all labels anyway and

what are labels in the Postmodern World. Speaking of the above schools, the

Smithsonian is sponsoring an eight week course entitled "Rebel Poets of the

1950s." We are reading "On The Road" for the first class -- it's

been years since I read it and it should be great fun. If there

are any other Washingtonians out there other than Howard and

myself hope you can make it.

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:30:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: White horses

>Does this suggest to others (as it seems possibly to me) that >JK may have,

at least subconciously, have thought himself >some sort of "Messianic

figure"? Or, since I have a limited >knowledge of JK and his writings, are

there other

>references that may better explain his dream of being on a >"white horse"?

For one, there is a zen koan about meditation, in which the student is

advised to try not to think about a white horse.

Western mythology is replete with "white horse" images; it's possible that

the white horse in "Revelations" is borrowed from earlier traditions. Kerouac

could have "borrowed" the image from any of anumber of sources, or it could

have been used/dreamed purely by "chance" - that is, he may have written it

down without being conscious of any particular source.

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:34:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

Horses in dreams are symbols of death. White horses especially according to

some.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:17:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuffer from this complex?

I know that I am getting off the subject of the Beats a little to much for

some people to be comfortable bu, Rita, you are being a little to Freudian.

Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) believed that

there are no universal symbols in dreams, symbols in dreams are unique to the

individual.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:50:06 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: kerouac, christlike

In-Reply-To: <951205233405_126274440@emout05.mail.aol.com>

apocalypse now? Revelation is damn interesting reading...

On Tue, 05 Dec 1995 23:34:06 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Horses in dreams are symbols of death. White horses especially according to

>some.

>Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500

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From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Define GenX Writing???

>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>than the break away from society connection?

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

Lemmie ask a serious question:

Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:14:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouac always stick to the topic?

>>I know that I am getting off the subject of the Beats a little to much for

some people to be comfortable bu, Rita, you are being a little to Freudian.

Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) believed that

there are no universal symbols in dreams, symbols in dreams are unique to the

individual.>>

Oh, Eric! You silly goose. It's kinda like this, now, I'm probably never

going to seriously think about, guh, the Loch Ness monster, but I still know

the legend. So why not take this legend that I know and throw it in to some

of my writing knowing that someone will understand that I'm making a

statement, on say, that guy in the 1950's who mysteriously blew up in the

Lochness Lake while trying to beat the world motorboat speed record? See, I

know that Someone out there will get the reference, and everyone else will

most likely glaze over it like a donut.

mmmmmm....donut. And, I for one, don't mind getting off the topic a wee bit

if it came from the Beats. It all flows together, and maybe somewhere along

the lines we will stumble over something Really Significant (in regard to the

Beats)in the midst of talking about something else and being yelled at by

some people to stick to the exact writings of the authors. I think we need

to acknowledge the thoughts and queries that they themselves might have had

in the process of writing or revising or whatevering, and give those thoughts

consideration. I agree, if I just sent out a post talking about donuts or

art and mentioned nothing about them, then that's silly, but I don't think

there is anything wrong with tangents- Oh did you hear the one about how

three strings went into a bar...?

I love you too, Eric, and all of you,

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:29:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Baraka

Regarding Baraka's attitude toward his old Beat self. It is not odd for an

artist (or non-artist) wanting to move drastically to renounce all that

he/she was and what preceded him/her. Jettison all excess cargo, so to say.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:31:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Being Mindful

Hello everyone,

On this subject as to what should be the content of messages posted here...I

agree that sometimes we can really digress (the most popular example being

the discussion around the name of Jack's cat), but I'm apprehensive about

instituting some rule that we must stick stricly to a discussion of the texts

of Beat writers. Literature, like all art, touches us all individually,

deeply on more than a cerebral level. It speaks to us on an emotional &

spiritual level as well. In talking about the works of the Beat writers, it

would be almost impossible to not talk about how these writings have shaped

and influenced our own ideals, and that discussion can inevitabley take a

philosophical bent.If I wanted a purely academic discussion, I would turn to

scholarly literary journals.

I've noticed that as it is, when we do discuss "serious" topics it is

generally from the objective, removed position of a scholar, quoting and

referencing other people, and not speaking whatever our real truth is. Okay,

some of these discussions seem to take on a life of their own and get kind of

dull, but if we ask each other to dictate what we're allowed to express, if

we censor our own ability to speak our truth, what kind of homage are we

paying to our Beat writers?

Truly, Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:43:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Rice <PAULR@COASTAL.EDU>

Organization: Coastal Carolina University

Subject: Re: White horses

cf. the recurrent white horse image in _Natural Born Killers.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:25:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: You can't win

You Can't Win, by Jack Black, was reprinted in 1988 by Amok Press with a

great foreward by W. S. Burroughs. It is a rematkable and vivid book, a must

for major Burroughs fans or anyone into the hurly-burley of the hobo-con

man-road culture of the 19teens and twenties.

Good luck finding it. I snapped it up in a used bookstore in Boston. It is

out-of-print. It was originally published in 1928 by McMillian. May the

johnson family be with you...

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:05:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!! (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <C5CDC43001C93A7C@-SMF->

We got onto chance because Jack used chance in his writings.

Molly

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:44:24 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it was that he didn't like living so far away from his mother so

he went back to the States very quickly.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:42:07 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Steve Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

In-Reply-To: <951205182912_125947814@mail06.mail.aol.com>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Liz Prato wrote:

> I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

> Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

That there wasn't one.

Best,

Steve

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:59:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: X marks the spot

Dear Critter,

well, can you first define GenerationX?

I think that there are definatley some writers that fall into the GEn X

catergory, no matter how you look at it, (unless, of course you don't look at

it at all). The first mostest obvious being Coupland, Douglas. Author of

"generation x" "microserfs" "shampoo planet" and "life after god"

The next, someone else said before, was Quentin Tarrantino. you gotta admit,

even if his works aren't about Generation X, they certainly do grab that

market's ratings. (really, if you fall into this mysterious category, HOW

MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE pulp fiction? true romance? killing zoe <ok, maybe

not that one a lot>? were you really intrigued by destiny turns on the

radio? did you see resivoior dogs?)

Mebbe after that I'd say Eric bogosian, for a mix of the previous two people,

all his age, age-grabbing, and age of characters. He also makes a statement

on american life today, and I think that tends to touch younger audiences *IN

GENERAL* more than the over 65 crowd. (if you find yerself offended by this

bc you are over 65, then you should actually be honored that you're still so

hip...) Of course, playwrites hardly ever get enough recognition these

days.... (and yes, i did read his version of Notes From The Underground.

Good stuff.)

Then howabaout the wonderful Ani DiFranco? I know, she's a musician, but her

lyrics have p-o-w-e-r. On that track, judging by lyrics and not musical

abilities, Tori Amos. (Although I do love her music too....)

My friend nigel, but he's not famous so he doesn't count, I guess.

I'm blanking on a lot of really important people, I know, its late, forgive

me. but i wouldn't want to have to be responsible for leaving soemone out

anyway....

Ok, any connection to the Beats?

A sense of dissatisfaction with the mainstream culture, yes, but how about

that these poeple, or at least some of them, are willing to take

controversial issues and write about them, push them, sometimes get graphic

with you.

Unlike many other authors, these guys say it loud. And they will be morbid,

they will be depressing, they will not be objective. They are opinionated.

They don't (usually) slip into the whole "my writing is all metaphorical"

mode and the Beats didn't that much either. It is about honesty through

writing, and an honesty of soul.

But...guh...I'm exhausted and just got denied billing credit from Amerika

Online.

>>>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>than the break away from society connection?

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

Lemmie ask a serious question:

Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???>>>

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:51:32 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: genX in Chicago, under the El

In-Reply-To: <30C5317D@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

yes, but only in general and only according to the broad scope of their very

heterogeneous vision...a synthesis cannot be composed but rather a broad

definition of the particular characteristics

On Wed, 06 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>>What do you think? Any connection between any of them and the Beats other

>>than the break away from society connection?

>I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

>a slew

>of them that fit the bill, maybe..

>Lemmie ask a serious question:

>Can the GenX Literary Movement or at least their attributes be defined???

> ..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

where they born. However, one of the characteristics attributed to them was a

dissatisfaction with mainstream society. Obviously, this can not be true of all

"gen. x'ers" or else it would be a giant paradox. If everyone were to be

with mainstream society, and in their generation, mainstream society was that

everyone was dissatisfied with mainstream society, then that would force

everyone into the real mainstream society of normalcy and picket-fences and

Dad as a provider and Mom as a house wife. But, they were dissatisfied with

mainstream society (granted, this is not mainstream society, and from what I

hear, it never was, TV just made it that way, but I wasn't around so I really

don't know) but it is the ideals of mainstream society. So, The whole

generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

just had never thought about it before.

Love Always,

eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Christ!...did Kerouacsuff...

>Jung (and most psychologists after him from what I understand) >believed

that there are no universal symbols in dreams,

>symbols in dreams are unique to the

>individual.

You and Rita are both right and wrong. Although Jungians do believe as you

say, they also use what they call "amplification" which is to look at the

uses of the particular symbol - in myth mostly, but also in fairy tales and

yes, literature. The final word , however, rests with the dreamer.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Dreams Question (horse)

Does anyone know if there's been a book (besides _Book of Dreams_) or article

discussing Jack's dreams - either the dreams themselves, or how they played

into his writing?

Julie

PS - Brief thoughts on the white horse: quest (as in knight) purity strength

sacrifice (as white was often the color of sacrificed animals - also

sacrifice in the sense of making sacred). St. George. horse as vehicle or

body

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:25:26 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Dreams Question

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:19:27 -0500,

Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM> wrote:

>Does anyone know if there's been a book (besides _Book of Dreams_) or article

>discussing Jack's dreams - either the dreams themselves, or how they played

>into his writing?

"Book of Dreams" is briefly discussed in Dennis McNally's "Desolate Angel",

pp. 292-3

Regards,

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:21:29 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: You can't win

I found this edition in a used book store. I think that's the best bet. It's

worth reading. Compare the influence of *You Can't Win* on Burroughs to the

influence of Jack London's *The Road* on Kerouac. It's obvious that each man

picked up on what suited him best.

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:37:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern Poetry

>I wrote an article last year for a friend's zine

>entitled, "Who Drove the Post Through Modern Poetry," that I still

>think I have it on disk if anyone is interested I could send it via

>E-Mail.

>Perry Lindstrom

I would love to acquire a copy of this! I run a coffeehouse on the

net and the little coffeetable magazine I put out would love to have

an article such as this for the next issue! (everything electronic mind

you.) [http://metro.turnpike.net/C/Critter/index.html]

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:35:20 GMT

Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject: Re: Define GenX Writing???

At the Boulder beat gathering in 1982 and at the NYU beatfest in '94 Allen

Ginsberg talked about a Found Generation. He told me that it was a term

Kerouac had used in talking about a forthcoming generation. Anyone have any

ideas about what a Found Generation might be like?

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:31:56 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

where they born.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the common conception of Gen X and your complaints

about it are valid. That's why I sent out Doug Coupland's

definition of Generation X a few weeks back. It took into

consideration attitude and beliefs - I guess that is the

way to view what separates the Beats from all the other

Bohemians throughout time.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:39:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Define GenX Writing??? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:02:26 -0500

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Define GenX Writing???

I had a nice little print up of the GenX writers from City Lights.. there's

a slew

of them that fit the bill, maybe..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be interested in seeing that list (if your use of the past tense does

not mean you no lnger have it).

I'd have sent this privately (ha ha) but I don't know what the hell

kind of address you have Critter.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:57:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Is anything really: Re: Postmodern (fwd)

>You hit the nail on the head (it's late - please excuse bad cliches)

>when you say "sometimes", but how does this automatically make

>any post 1945 writing PostModern. The notion of PostModernity

>and PostModern criticism and art goes much deeper than merely

>the time when a piece was written. Please don't degrade my

>humble profession any more than it already is.

Well, let me come clean first off: I've only been reading into

this postmodernity for a little under a year, and I must say it's

not a concept you can easily pick up on your own w/o discussing

it w/ those that have dabbling in it for a longer time. I'm still cutting

through Madan Sarup's essays on post-structuralism and

postmodernism, which is not what I'd call a light read.

>From what concepts I've grasped thus far, postmodernism was

supposed to be a sort of supra anti-literature movement. Personally,

what little I know of the Beats, I don't think they meet the mark. I've

always enjoyed what McClure attempted with the language, and

thought that was CLOSE to pomo, with Corso in a close second.

As far as literature in the non-poetic sense, Ginsberg did a fairly

good job, and the film version of his book was also a CLOSE

to what I see as postmodern.

Unfortunately all of this is only CLOSE (IMHO) to what I perceive

as being postmodern. When I look at a master of modern language

I think of cummings and his ability to twist language into something

more representative than the peice itself. When I think of the power

behind words, I think of Eliot, himself being a modernist? As for

modern writers and their postmodern appeal, I think it's all crap.

I'm not saying that this man or that is good or bad, I just believe

that postmodernism is a fancy these days, and not actually a

practice.

As a matter of fact, I am working now on a mailing list that will

focus on this topic, trying to find the inspiration or AN inspiration

for the current or the NEXT movement in literature (writing in

general that is). If anyone might be interested, feel free to mail

me personally and I'll keep your name on the list.

..Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:12:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Postmodern

>I think there's something to the modernist leaning of JK-- and time

>period alone does not a postmodern make. I don't even get a real sense

>of Kerouac's characters being especially "anti-hero;" they often seem

>very traditional in their lonely wanderings: Poe, Whitman, Byron,

>Shelley, Milton, Homer all have similar "heroes." And his style draws

>right from modernists, Joyce especially (in a sense...). I think that,

>given the group JK was surrounded by, this makes his writing all the more

>interesting.

>Yrs. &c.

>Steven Cahn

I agree with this. Everything that has been attempting to be "postmodern"

seems to be more "modern" IMO. I think the best definition of postmodern

in language and literature is the art that attempts to transcend set

boundaries.

Not that this is any ground-breaking discovery here, but the hero is

one set convention that writers have been working with for centuries.

As for the more up-to-date postmodernist, I'd look for someone that